A messy conversation about divorce

Summary

The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby

Episode: A Messy Conversation About Divorce
Date: January 21, 2026
Hosts: Matt & Abby Howard

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Overview

In this episode, Matt and Abby, high school sweethearts and married parents of two, dive into a raw and candid discussion about divorce. They explore the stigma, statistics, personal anxieties, and realities of marriage, separation, and the importance of commitment. Drawing on research, personal anecdotes, expert advice, and listener questions, the couple openly discusses not only divorce, but also what makes marriage resilient, the impact of life stages and careers, and how they themselves navigate marital challenges.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Importance of Open Conversations About Divorce

• [01:46] Matt: "We're not getting divorced, guys. We're just having a conversation about it, which I think is actually so important to have these conversations in marriage because if you avoid uncomfortable conversations in your marriage, it’s just going to grow like a disconnect between you."
• Marriage isn’t off-limits for tough conversations – avoiding them leads to more problems.

Divorce Statistics and Trends

• Under-25 Marriages:
  • [00:29, 02:15] Stat: Getting married under the age of 25 brings a 25% higher risk of divorce.
  • Abby asks if this would influence how they advise their sons about marriage timing.
• Cohabitation:
  • [02:30] Research shows couples who live together before marriage may have a higher chance of splitting.
• Average Marriage Duration:
  • [04:57] U.S. marriages ending in divorce typically last 8 years.
  • [05:13] 2/3 of divorces are initiated by women, surprising both hosts.
• Infidelity:
  • [05:57] Men are more likely to cheat in general, but women 18-29 are more likely than men their age.
• Divorce Month:
  • [04:25] January is known as “Divorce Month” — post-holiday stress commonly leads to a spike in filings.

Factors That Impact Marriage Longevity

• Willingness to Work On It
  • [03:18] Abby: “The determining factor on whether or not you stay married boils down to whether or not you both are willing to work on it.”
• Life Stages & “Hard Seasons”
  • [14:26, 16:22] Breakdown of hard marriage phases:
    • Year 1–2: End of honeymoon, reality sets in.
    • Years 3–5: Financial and family planning stress.
    • Years 5–8: Parenting, work-life balance, and “seven-year itch.”
    • Year 10: Peak dissatisfaction, especially among overwhelmed parents.
• Need for Therapy
  • [15:29] Abby: “I don’t think everyone needs as much therapy as we need, but I think it’s because of our occupation that we need to be safeguarding [our marriage].”
• The Changing Nature of Marriage
  • [21:59] Whenever a major life event happens (kids, moves, losses), “A new marriage is starting. You have to rebuild your marriage.”

Conflict & Resolution Techniques

• [09:35–11:02] Abby recounts a recent marital conflict and the importance of the "resolution muscle":
  • Use of space to cool down, followed by open and quick reconciliation.
  • Matt: "We laughed together." Abby: "I really love when we are able to...overcome a conflict with laughter."
• Gottman Institute Principle [11:05]: Rekindling love and resolving conflict with laughter ties to marital happiness.

The Role of Gender, Culture & Society

• Initiation & Cheating
  • Surprise at women initiating majority of divorces ([05:13]) and stats on who cheats more, varying by age ([05:57]).
• Society & Social Media
  • [51:18-52:46] Abby and Matt highlight how social media comments encourage splitting and normalize divorce:
    • "People are just so quick to just be like, leave him.” — Abby [00:20]
    • Matt: “If I had a dollar for every comment…to leave me, I’d have a lot of dollars.” [00:22]
• Influencer/Reality TV Divorces
  • [32:34-33:31, 60:16-61:30] Careers in the public eye (social media, reality TV) correlate with higher divorce rates due to external scrutiny and stress.

Career Impacts on Divorce

• High-Risk Professions
  • [33:45-38:14] Occupations with higher divorce rates: bartenders, military supervisors, healthcare workers, gaming/casino workers, flight attendants, telemarketers, dancers.
  • Major stressors: irregular hours, stressful environments, prolonged separations, and job dissatisfaction.

Rebuilding & Prioritizing the Marriage

• “Put Marriage First”
  • [23:37-24:04, 39:59] Both emphasize prioritizing each other above their children to maintain a strong partnership and model a healthy relationship for their kids.
• Perspective & Memory
  • [28:00] Matt recommends looking back at happy memories to “put everything in perspective...this can be you again.” Not being able to remember good days is a sign marriages are ending.

Listener Q&A & Relationship Advice

• Relighting the Spark:
  • [58:13] Abby: “Fake it till you make it. Sometimes when we're mad at each other...we'll play a card game together.”
• On Separating Before Divorce:
  • [61:30] Both agree separation can facilitate reflection and healing.
• Getting Back Together Post-Divorce:
  • [59:44] Matt: “Absolutely not [wrong]. If you think you can work it out, oh my gosh, go back. But...make some changes.”
• Financial Safeguards:
  • [61:44] On divorcing with gambling debts, Matt recommends cutting credit and getting professional help.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Willingness to Work:

• Abby: "The determining factor on whether or not you stay married boils down to whether or not you both are willing to work on it." [03:18]

On Social Media & Outsider Opinions:

• Matt: "If I had a dollar for every comment...that told you to leave me, I would have a lot of dollars." [00:22]
• Abby: "People are just so quick to just be like, leave him." [00:20]

On the Fluctuations of Marriage:

• Abby: "Every time you have a new kid...anytime something big happens in your life, that marriage is done. A new marriage is starting." [21:59]

On Conflict Resolution:

• Abby: "The most important muscle you can exercise in a marriage is the resolution muscle. Every little conflict can be...a little fracture in the marriage" [08:36]

On Life vs. Marriage Difficulties:

• Matt: "Life is hard. Marriage isn’t hard." [37:57]

On Commitment vs. Compatibility:

• Abby: "What matters is that we've committed to each other, and through that commitment, we're also shaping one another and therefore becoming more compatible." [54:35]

---

Important Timestamps

• [00:20] – Social media and quick judgments (“leave him” comments)
• [01:46] – Starting the messy, honest divorce discussion
• [04:25] – January as “divorce month” and why post-holiday divorce rates spike
• [05:44] – Statistical breakdown of divorce (average duration, who initiates, who cheats more)
• [09:35-11:02] – Personal story of recent marital conflict and resolution
• [14:26-21:18] – Marriage hard periods: 1-2 yrs, 3-5 yrs, 5-8 yrs, and 10+ discussion
• [23:37-24:04] – The importance of putting your spouse first, even above children
• [28:00] – Rewatching happy old videos to keep perspective
• [32:34-33:31] – Reality TV/social media effect on marriage
• [39:15] – “Gray divorce” stats (divorce 50+ and 65+ surging)
• [41:44] – Marriage increases likelihood of thriving and happiness (statistics)
• [45:02-55:57] – “Agree to Disagree” segment (debating common marriage/divorce takes)
• [58:13] – Listener Qs: “relighting the spark” and reconciling after divorce
• [61:44] – Dealing with financial issues/divorce (e.g., gambling debts)
• [62:29] – “Have you ever considered divorce?” and the role of emotions

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Additional Insights & Tone

• Playful, candid, and sometimes self-deprecating: Both hosts share their vulnerabilities and laugh at themselves (“I was being a monster for about an hour and a half” [10:01]), and joke about the realities of their careers.
• Research-driven: They cite studies, experts (Arthur Brooks, John Deloney, Tony Robbins), and frequently clarify sources aren’t always experts.
• Balance of realism and optimism: While acknowledging marriage is tough and divorce happens, both return to the idea that commitment, shared growth, and willingness to work through stages is key ("Marriage is not unrealistic because people change; it grows stronger because people change”). [56:41]

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Have uncomfortable conversations: Talking about difficult topics strengthens marriage.
• Invest in the “resolution muscle”: Frequent, small resolutions prevent larger fractures.
• Life is harder than marriage: Challenges come from outside circumstances, not the institution itself.
• Commitment supersedes compatibility: Staying and growing together beats searching for “the perfect fit.”
• Protect your marriage intentionally, especially in public careers.
• Prioritize your partner, not just your kids or career.

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If you haven’t listened, this episode will give you honest, research-based, and personal perspectives on why marriages succeed, why they fail, and how to navigate hard seasons together with humor, hard work, and commitment.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

People are just so quick to just be like, leave him.

[A]

If I had a dollar for every comment or like on a comment for people that told you to leave me, I would have a lot of dollars.

[B]

Getting married under the age of 25, you a higher rate of divorce by up to 25%.

[A]

We were children when we started dating, but there's, like, pros and cons, right?

[B]

Compromise wasn't exactly possible.

[A]

That was like a hurdle in our relationship we had to overcome. And we did. We figured it out, right?

[B]

I got my way.

[A]

Are men or women more likely to cheat? Let me look that up.

[B]

Men.

[A]

Why men?

[B]

Because they think with their pee pee.

[A]

What would you say has been the hardest season to grieve and let go of and recognize that part of our life is done? Hey, before we get started on today's episode, I wanted to ask you guys guys to just take a couple seconds of your time to leave a review for our podcast. It means the world to us. And if you're not subscribed to the show, if you wouldn't mind just tapping the subscribe button. Actually, the majority of the people that watch the show aren't even subscribed, according to the data. That's probably you watching this right now. So please, it takes one second. Hit subscribe. We'd love to have you a part of this community. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Unplanned, a marriage and family podcast. And today we are talking about divorce. We're going to have an unfiltered, messy.

[B]

Conversation about marriage and divorce, which is.

[A]

Actually kind of funny because I had people submit some questions today, and someone literally thought we were divorced, which is so.

[B]

No, I feel like that's. I thought that. I was like, you're literally going to make it sound like we're getting divorced.

[A]

We're not getting divorced, guys. We're just having a conversation about it, which I think is actually so important to have these conversations in marriage because if you avoid uncomfortable conversations in your marriage, it's just going to grow like a disconnect between you.

[B]

Okay. Actually, I was, like, looking at what we had prepared for this episode and the thing that surprised me the most because I feel like we talk. Gosh, we talk endlessly about young marriage. Apparently, getting married under the age of 25, you have a higher rate of divorce by up to 25%.

[A]

Do you think that changes how we should advise our kids on marriage? Like, if we have a kid that comes to us wanting to get married like we did when you're 19, are we going to encourage them to wait? Because then there's data that shows if you cohabitate, if you cohabitate, there's a likelihood that then you split up, too.

[B]

We are saying that if you live together before you're married, you're more likely to get divorced.

[A]

Yeah. That's what Arthur Brooks told us, too. And there's research to support that.

[B]

I think it all boils down. Maybe this just makes me sound like a hopeless romantic, but I think it just all boils down to when you meet your person.

[A]

Yeah, you do sound like a hopeless romantic.

[B]

Would you describe me as one?

[A]

Well, here's the thing, babe. Like, we got married freaking young, but we're. We're also nearly a decade in. Almost seven years of marriage. This summer is seven years of marriage. And, you know, I do think we're.

[B]

Clearly experts in the. I do.

[A]

I want to say. Well, I want to say it's probably. There's, like, pros and cons. Right. Like, I feel like it's harder because we've changed so much because we were children when we started dating.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, like, we also have grown up together.

[B]

I actually think the determining factor on whether or not you stay married boils down to whether or not you both are willing to work on it.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that's good. Snaps snapping. And here's the thing.

[B]

You have to actually be willing to work on it because it's like. And there's some. I mean, that is some things you can maybe decide, like, I am not willing to work on this anymore. Like, that's valid. But that's as simple as it's like, are you willing to work on it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now there's the things that are like, maybe you shouldn't work on this anymore. Like, you know what I mean?

[A]

I honestly think that you kind of hit the nail on the head there, and we pretty much can just end the podcast there. Thanks for tuning in, everybody.

[B]

People have to be willing to, like, one person. I feel like a lot of times in these marriages that are like, one person gives up, one person is like, I've been working. I've been working on this for so long, and you're not putting in any effort.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's like, what is the point anymore. And I can see where you. I mean, heck, I probably come to that conclusion if it was like if this wasn't a two way street, you know. And so obviously so many things in life complicated. I think kids are probably the biggest thing that complicated.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Complicate that.

[A]

Yeah. It's really sad, you guys. I don't know if you knew this, but January is actually considered divorce month because there's so many divorces that happen after the holidays and there's just a post holiday spike and divorce inquiries that lawyers report and they think this is because of like stress, finances, relationship strain. Also, we're going to put all of our sources that we talk about in the description. We're not journalists, we're not experts. We'll bring on journalists and experts.

[B]

We haven't been divorced either because we are only seven years in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or six and a half.

[A]

Which is actually kind of terrifying because if you look at what the facts say, apparently the average length of marriage. Marriages like the end of divorce is eight years. So we, we still have another year to get to the average. Another year and a half.

[B]

The average.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So the average is eight years.

[B]

People bailed like within like year one or two.

[A]

Yeah. It says at right here. The, the, the fact is average marriage length before divorce in the US is about eight years. And 2/3 of divorces in the US are initiated by women, which. That was also. Both of those surprise. Both of those surprised me a lot. I would have thought that men were the one initiating divorces.

[B]

No, I think men are more prideful. Like they're like, I don't want to wave the white flag. Like I want to be the one to call this.

[A]

I also want to know, are men or women more likely to cheat? That's actually a question that I want to know. Let me look that up. What do you think? Men. Why men?

[B]

Because.

[A]

Because why?

[B]

I want to say this because I literally just sound always here how I don't want to be man hating.

[A]

They think with their pee pee gosh dang it, babe. You're right. So this is according to if studies.org it's demographics of infidelity in America. And so according to this research, men are more likely to cheat. It also depends on like the age. So if you're looking at men in between the ages of. Wait. What? This is interesting. Okay, wait, let me take a screenshot of this graph. We'll have to throw it up on the screen. So this is a gender cheating gap. A graph that shows you when like Are men or women more likely to cheat? So between the ages of 18 and 29, women are more likely to cheat. And then it changes. Yeah, and then it changes to men for ages 30 to 39 and so on you. Isn't that interesting? So this is a graph of, like, percentage who reported having sex with someone other than a spouse while married. And it's higher for women for the age range that we're in.

[B]

I bet these are women that aren't.

[A]

Having kids, don't have. Oh, so you think that, like, once women have kids, they're less likely.

[B]

Who's got the time? Who's got the time? When you have children, who's got the time to go sleep around? Who's got the will? Who's got the will and the desire?

[A]

Okay, you are right, though, because I think it says 18 to 29, but I think. I think by age 29, if you look at this graph, it looks like it's moving closer and closer towards the end.

[B]

What happens is 29, women start to have kids. And here's the thing, here's why I think men hop up then, because men are starting to get a little shallow. Their woman is going through so. So many body changes and hormonal changes. So they're like, I gotta bail and find someone that, you know.

[A]

Do you know what my theory is for the men? Yeah, I think men are like, oh, like, my wife is putting the kids first. Which is true. I think a lot of couples fall in that trap.

[B]

I was taking a much more shallow approach. I think they're just like, oh, they're pregnant postpartum, they're breastfeeding. Like, things aren't looking the same. And so they want. They want a new specimen.

[A]

According to the data, so legal professionals see a 20 to 30% increase in. In calls and divorce filings post holidays. That makes a lot of sense.

[B]

Who wants to tell the family that they're splitting up at dinner?

[A]

100%. Like, if. If you know it's coming. So say it's like October, right? And you're like, we're done. This is over. Like, you're not going to do anything. Like, you know that the holidays are coming up. You got Thanksgiving, you got Christmas.

[B]

All these gatherings still fine. I feel like that's probably. I feel like November, December, November.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like November, December, period. People are, like, fed up and they're like, we'll wait till January. We don't want to go through that uncomfortable conversation.

[B]

But here's the thing. It's not like they made that decision, most of the time, probably in November, December, it's like, it's. It's from fractures for years and years.

[A]

100%.

[B]

And that's why I think the most important muscle you can exercise in a marriage is the resolution muscle. Every little conflict can be, like, potentially a little fracture in the marriage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so those things, I think, are the things that add up to a divorce eventually rather than necessarily, like one major event that just, like, you know, just brought the whole thing down. We had a resolution last night.

[A]

What was our resolution? Wait, what do you want to bring up? What do we.

[B]

I'm bringing this up because it was me. I was clearly.

[A]

Did we have a disgrace? Oh, yes. Wait. Yes. I know what you're talking about now.

[B]

I was being royal. Fill in the blank. Okay.

[A]

No, you literally. What did you say to me? You came up with, no, no, no.

[B]

I knew. And here's the thing that's so frustrating is that in the moment, the whole time, this wheel is going. It's like a wheel going down a hill. It's like, I see that we're picking up speed. I see that where we're going down fast. And I.

[A]

And you couldn't stop. Wrong.

[B]

Couldn't stop it.

[A]

Or.

[B]

You know what? Let's be honest. Let me take responsibility here. I didn't choose to stop it until I was like, you know what? I need to remove myself. So then I just put my little headphones in after the kids went to bed, read my Kindle, and then I just sat and pondered. I was like, that was so unnecessary. That was way overdramatic. You were a monster for about.

[A]

You're talking about yourself. You're talking about me or yourself?

[B]

Myself.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I was a little monster for about an hour and a half. No, you actually handled it super well.

[A]

I handled it well?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

You were just kind of like, think. You were just kind of like, this is crazy. So I don't even. I'm afraid to interact.

[A]

You did go from zero to a hundred real quick.

[B]

I turned into a pillow. It didn't have to do with you. It was just like, everything in the moment, it just felt like so much. And it actually wasn't that big of a deal, but it just felt like so much. And so once the kids went to bed, put my headphones on, read my Kindle. And then finally I was like, let's go. Let's go resolve this. And we went and had, like, a quick. It didn't even need to be a long combo. Cause like, we have this Muscle of resolution. And I feel like that like last night was like such a. An example of like so much progress, you know, maybe early on in marriage, it's like, okay, we would have had to like think about that for like a day and then been quiet for like a day and then had like two days of like deep conversations. And it's like now it's like we're able to like stop, rethink, come back together. And you were so quick to like respond though, to that.

[A]

I think we laughed. We laughed together.

[B]

Yeah. You didn't freak out.

[A]

That was always really fun, actually. I really love when we are able to like rekindle things and laugh about it. Because that's. I want to say in the Gottman Institute they talk about how when couples are able to like rekindle their love and overcome a conflict with like, laughter and like, yeah, we did laugh. They make the. I forget the exact.

[B]

And then we made love.

[A]

Which is always great.

[B]

That always makes everything just a little bit better.

[A]

Could be a little awkward to talk about because our sister in law is in the room right now. No, I talk about that type of stuff. Oh, gosh. Yeah. What is up with women and talking about sex? You and your girlfriends talk about sex way more than me and my, my dude friends.

[B]

I know, it's.

[A]

And also, why is it that you say you have girlfriends but like, guys are never like, yeah, my boyfriends. No, dude is like, yeah, they're like my boys. My, my bro. My.

[B]

Call them my girls. I honestly call my sister in laws my girls. I've started that recently.

[A]

Why is it not gay for women to say that? But it is for, for guys. I don't get why that is.

[B]

Sometimes you just throw me a question. I'm like, I don't know. The patriarchy.

[A]

Yeah, but okay, you guys talk about sex all the time. Talk to me about that. Why is that a thing?

[B]

Well, it's. It's fun for me to talk about.

[A]

I get. But it's. What's interesting to me is like men, myself included, think about it probably 10 times more than you do, I think. I don't know.

[B]

That's why I'm like, why are you talking about it?

[A]

Yeah, I don't know why. Maybe we don't want it. Maybe we just want to do it and we don't want to talk about it. Like, maybe I don't want to talk to other men about.

[B]

Maybe we don't want to talk about it. We don't want to do it.

[A]

I should. I want to Talk to you. Hey, you know what? I want to talk. Oh, my gosh, Abby, let's just talk.

[B]

About it and let's not.

[A]

No, see, I want to do it.

[B]

We're going to. But let's not.

[A]

That's actually a really good point. You want to talk. I don't want to talk. Talk about it. I just want to do it and. But I. I would love to talk about it with you. Like, that's kind of hot. I don't know. But, like, that's what. No, we're going too far down.

[B]

But, like, the best time to laugh, though, that's how you know you've been married for a little bit longer than, like, the honeymoon stage is when you can just, like, laugh during it. And yes, are hilarious.

[A]

And speaking.

[B]

Some people don't like it when they laugh during intercourse.

[A]

Both of us have definitely passed gas in the middle of the. Of spicy time, for sure. I don't know what's up with. We're too comfortable around each other.

[B]

I thought we're talking about the honeymoon stage.

[A]

Well, I thought you were talking about how, like, how we laugh, like, during. During this time.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join RocketMoney.com Unplanned that's RocketMoney.com Unplanned RocketMoney.com Unplanned let's talk about common hard periods. This is kind of like analyzing the different. The different times that people. People exit marriage. So, okay, if you're looking at year one through two, that's considered like the end of the honeymoon phase and the initial pretend phase fades, revealing daily quirks and responsibilities, leading to clashes over routines and expectations. I've heard of couples getting divorces in like one to two years, but I feel like that's pretty uncommon.

[B]

Really?

[A]

I want to say.

[B]

So I was going to say I thought was the highest.

[A]

No, I feel like the highest is like the seven year itch that everyone talks about. Oh, which this is. This our seventh year is this summer.

[B]

Well, I don't count that. I already think we passed seven years because we were together for three years before.

[A]

True.

[B]

But I think we were like, together together.

[A]

But I think people are talking about like marriage. Marriage though, because it's like we weren't committed. Like once you make that commitment. Well, I think it's great that we go to therapy because I think it's like getting an oil change on your car.

[B]

Well, I was actually going to talk about that. I don't think everyone needs as much therapy as we need, but I think it's the fact I'm gonna transition into this later, but I think it's because of our occupation that like, we need to, we need to be safeguarding it.

[A]

As we're literally talking about some of the most vulnerable details of our life on the Internet.

[B]

This is the reason why it's because of you.

[A]

Freaking, dude.

[B]

Gosh darn camera.

[A]

Dang it.

[B]

Gosh darn Mike. No, I say this jokingly because I think it's such a blessing that we get to work together. But then we also need to like, literally safeguard the crap out of it because we do know that this is probably a liability to our future.

[A]

No, 100%. I think we get in more arguments about like filming schedules and content and like, like, I don't think we have arguments about stuff outside. Like, I feel like work is where we have arguments, in my opinion. Right.

[B]

Yeah. So that's why we're in therapy.

[A]

But then also I think I noticed.

[B]

From my experience, you got to get over those things.

[A]

Yeah, you do. But I think, like, I think the hardest phase that we've ever been through, well, we've had some different ups and downs. We've had family members loss, we had our miscarriage. We've had a lot of stuff. But what I think for, from my experience, I think the hardest phase was like the newborn stage mixed with, then dealing with two under two.

[B]

Is that when most people exit. What's the statistics?

[A]

So, okay, so let's. Yeah, let's keep talking about this. So that's year one through two, end of the honeymoon stage. Then we have year three to five again. All of our sources that we're getting this information from in the description, year three to five, reality sets in. So you have. Disillusionment grows. As reality hits, major discussions about finances, housing and family planning often surface. Gosh. I mean, I'm. I feel so blessed, Abby, that you are a frugal queen and that you don't. Obviously we spend more money now than we spent, you know, a couple years ago. But I still, like, I appreciate that, like, when you go and buy clothes, you'll be like, since I'm the one who, like, checks our rocket money and checks the numbers and make sure we're hitting our investment goals and hitting our savings goals, you're like, hey, am I good to go spend, you know, it might be like $500 at Abercrombie on clothes. I'll be like, oh, you know, that's what, that's what it usually is. Right. Like, clothes are expensive and. And I appreciate how you.

[B]

Clothes.

[A]

I like, like, I think we, like, run purchases by each other, which I like, I appreciate.

[B]

Well, we have transparency in finance. Yeah. I think that's like the best policy.

[A]

There's random things. Like, I think I bought a mat that says, you know, take off your shoes. And I don't think I ran that purchase by you, which that ended up being the mat that. The floor mat we have in our.

[B]

Garage was not the cost of the Matt. It was just. I was like, people can keep their shoes on in my house.

[A]

Okay. But yeah, I think we're pretty good at just like, making sure we're communicating about that. And I think the communication aspect of marriage is huge.

[B]

But we did have conflicts arise when it came to buying houses. Just.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So that is still related to finances in some capacity. But also it's like, yeah, this bigger picture thing of, like, we are establishing our life together, like, where and how we're going to do it and what we intend for this to look Like, I can see where that. Cause it's one thing to say these things when you're dating and engaged, but it's another thing when you've gone through life a little bit more. Like, you're allowed to change your mind. And I think that's what happens probably in that three to five years. It's like, okay, well, I know we, like, dreamed about having this many kids or we dreamed about starting now, but I'm not ready or I don't think we are where we're at financially to buy a house, but I think we are. Blah, blah. I think that's a hard time. Big decisions.

[A]

If I think about the only money, quote unquote fight that we've ever had was probably buying the house that we're in now because we didn't technically need it, you know? You know, like, yeah, yeah, it was.

[B]

I wanted it.

[A]

Abby just wanted it, which is fine. Like, she, this, this is a hard working woman. She just launched a new podcast, guys. Okay. Go give her some love.

[B]

But like, no, I just, I didn't see. I had more to do with the location.

[A]

Yeah. And I think we're in a location that there's a lot more families. We're also not as isolated.

[B]

There's a better location for our kids.

[A]

Yeah. Which we've all talked about before. But, you know, it wasn't necessarily a need. But that was. That was like a hurdle in our relationship we had to overcome. And we did, and we figured it out.

[B]

I got my way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Good man.

[A]

I love you so much. Okay, so next, common hard periods. If we look at years five to eight, which that's what we're in right now. Okay.

[B]

Okay, wait, so it sounds like every single year is a hard period because you said 1 to 2, 3 to 5, 5 to 8.

[A]

Well, this, this, like, timeline that I'm talking about right now is just like pointing out the difficulties that you experience in every phase.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

And this is generalizing. This is not everyone. Right. Like, not everyone's having kids. Not everyone's doing the. The. But this is. Yeah, this is over generalizing what a lot of couples feel.

[B]

And I think they're probably like just speculating on data, like, why we see these.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like jumps.

[A]

But yeah, years five to eight, a lot of couples experience high stress from childcare, differing parenting styles. Work life balance. Resentment can peak. It's funny. Work life balance is why we had the argument that. Why that we had the little thing last night that was about. Because we. You had worked late. And I think that was frustrating you. So I find that really interesting that it brings. It's like. It's like it knew our minds. This. This is just from the Internet. This is from website.

[B]

None of us are living unique lives.

[A]

And yeah, all of us are. We're all so much more alike than we are. So, yeah, work, life, balance, and then resentment can peak, coinciding with divorce spikes. That's why the seven year itch. Your foot is so distracted.

[B]

Get that out of here.

[A]

This is my foot. Okay, I apologize. I'm gonna move my foot down.

[B]

You're welcome.

[A]

I'm putting my dogs away, everybody. Sorry, Addie. So. So, yeah, that's where you get the seven year itch. But, guys, this is very fascinating. Last but not least year 10, according to this research, is peak dissatisfaction.

[B]

I was gonna think that was the best year.

[A]

A Brigham Young University study found the highest dissatisfaction around this time, as festering issues become major complaints, often linked to women feeling overwhelmed by chores and kids.

[B]

Well, that's.

[A]

This study could be biased if this is from Brigham Young University. You know, I know a lot of LDS, Mormon families. If you're 10 years in, you probably have, like, seven kids at that point, right?

[B]

Say that they were only studying people.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, I'm guessing they're studying the entire.

[B]

US they probably have a better population to study research.

[A]

You know, I feel like we've gotten into a decent spot with two, but I'm like, man, as we grow our family.

[B]

Well, they say you have to grieve your marriage that you had. Every time you have a new kid or anything, something, anytime, something big happens in your life, that marriage is done. A new marriage is starting. You have to rebuild your marriage. You can't just try to carry the same marriage into that new phase of life.

[A]

You heard that from John Deloney.

[B]

Yes, I did.

[A]

What would you say has been the hardest season to grieve and let go of and recognize, okay, we're moving forward, that part of our life is done. You want me to go first? I can tell you right away I.

[B]

Feel like I need to keep my private.

[A]

For me, it was like. Like reality hit once we had Augie, because it was like such a whirlwind with, like, we had. Yeah, it was like, boom, Griffin. Like, I didn't even feel like I got it. Got a chance to come up for air before. It was like, oh, you're pregnant again with your second kid. I think went around, like, when Auggie was born, I had this, like, panic moment of like, oh, my gosh, my life Is not my own anymore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And I think, yeah, I wish. I wish I would have had John Maloney there to be like, hey, it's gonna be okay.

[B]

He would have been like, yeah, it's done, brother.

[A]

Done, brother. But guess what? There's. There's good things in the future coming for you, you know? And like, this.

[B]

This.

[A]

This stressful period of the newborn stage is temporary. This stressful period of having two essential newborns at the same time is temporary.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that would have helped me out, but I think I, you know, I loved the idea of us, like, leaving Missouri, being on the beach in Hawaii, me surfing every day, seeing my smoking hot wife in a bikini all the time because we're going to the beach all the time, eating acai bowls, living in a little cute surf surfer shack on the beach. Like, we had this amazing life, and then I'm like, I'm freaking living in the desert and I've got two rugrats that I have to keep alive 24 7, and I don't have any time myself. That, like, freaked me out.

[B]

But we got through it.

[A]

Now I'm, like, fighting myself to not love my kids more than you because it's, like, it's so important that I love you and put you above our children because that's, like, the key to a happy, healthy relationship.

[B]

That's a trap.

[A]

Yeah. You can't fall into that trap of, like, loving your kids.

[B]

Tony Robbins.

[A]

Tony Robbins talked to us about many people. And Arthur Brooks and John.

[B]

No, but it's so refreshing because I do think that the culture is pulling you, especially moms.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To put the kids first.

[A]

You can't do that.

[B]

Put the kids first. And it's like, it's dangerous. This doesn't mean that you're not taking care of your children, taking really good care of your kids, but it means you're taking amazing care of your marriage. You want it as you're raising your.

[A]

Kids want to see you put your spouse first. They do. That makes them feel safe.

[B]

And I agree. I felt that way as a kid when, like, I mean, I've experienced that. And so I do think, like, we can circle back to, like, the hardest part for me, I think, in our marriage was when we were just on completely different pages about, like, where we wanted to be, like, location wise, like, and I just felt so much guilt. I talked about this on Always Here, but I felt so much guilt because I felt like I was in the way of you experiencing your dream life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I wasn't experiencing Like, I was like, I just don't think I can thrive here. And so just, like, being in that tough position of, like, okay, where should we literally locate ourselves?

[A]

Yeah. That was a hard season.

[B]

That was hard because it was. It's just so hard when you're. You are on a completely different page with your spouse. Like, you're like, I see you thriving, like, basically, like, so happy and so, like, excited about life where you're at and just, like, me really trying to get on board. I just, like, can't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I just felt. I, like, felt so guilty about that. And so that was, like, just a really selfless thing of you to do. Like, that compromise of, like, that was the hard thing, where it's, like, really. Compromise wasn't exactly possible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, it was either, like, one person gets their way or one person doesn't. You can't. Like, we could split the difference.

[A]

That's part of it too. Like. Yeah, you're. I mean, it's funny hearing you say that. Yeah. Because, like, moving out of Hawaii really wasn't a compromise, or moving to this house wasn't really compromised, but I think there's times in marriage you just have to fully abandon what you want.

[B]

Well, I think that's where compromise comes. It's like, you get this one, I'm gonna get this one. You get this one, I'm gonna get this one. So you can always split the difference, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, I think that was the hardest. I think that's, like, that year three to five thing. Thank you to Olipop for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Oh, yeah, it's Olipop o', clock, you guys. In this household, we have been fighting over this flavor of Olipop ever since it came out. It is their new Shirley Temple flavor.

[A]

Yes. Guys, the Shirley Temple flavor is probably my favorite Olipop flavor of all time. I drank, I think, the entire case basically by myself.

[B]

You were hogging them.

[A]

And then I realized, oh, my gosh, we need this to fill this portion of our sponsorship with Olipop. So I had to go. I had to go buy a bunch of more cans because I just keep drinking these every day.

[B]

Last one we have left.

[A]

This is actually the last can. I bought, like, 20 extra cans, and I drank all of those, too.

[B]

With one sip of this drink, you are translated, transported back to your childhood. I remember weddings when every adult was getting, like, alcoholic beverages, obviously, and Shirley Temples were really hitting the spot. And guess what? They hit the same spot as an adult. They're so good.

[A]

And this is my favorite part. It only has 4 grams of sugar. 4 grams of sugar in a soda. Have you guys heard of a soda that has 4 grams of sugar? Olipop. That's insane. Olipop right here, people.

[B]

If you don't know what Olipop is, it's a new kind of soda that combines the classic soda taste with the benefits of a functional ingredient blend to support digestive health. Olipop is basically reimagining soda with high fiber and low sugar.

[A]

And Olipop, as we said, just launched a new limited edition flavor, Shirley Temple. And it's their take on the Shirley Temple classic you remember from your childhood. And it has real ingredients you can actually feel good about. Supports digestive health with real ingredients and less sugar. Again, this can right here, guys, only has 4 grams of sugar, and it's.

[B]

A perfect color for Valentine's Day. So think about that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Get a free can of Olipop. Buy any two cans of Olipop in store and we'll pay you back for one. Works on any flavor, any retailer. Olipop is sold [e-mail] and Amazon and available in the soda aisle and with the chilled beverages at thousands of retailers nationwide, including Walmart and Target. For more information, go to drinkollipop.com unplanned.

[A]

I will say this is a random thought I'm having right now, but if you're. If you yourself are going through a hard season in your relationship, I don't know why this always just. Just puts reality in perspective for me. But I love looking back at old videos of Abby and I. If I'm ever in a season of, you know, just feeling overwhelmed or maybe we're having a disagreement that day.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If I ever look back at, like, old videos of us, it just kind of puts everything in perspective. And I'm like, man, we're these two.

[B]

Freaking love each other.

[A]

We freaking love each other. We're these two just crazy, like, infatuated individuals that sent it. Got married in college. We were. How the heck, legally do we even do that? But we did. I mean, like, we got married so young. We. We've adventured the world together. And. And it's always been about you. Like, the entire reason I ever even did this freaking YouTube channel was because of you. Like, it's always been you. So it just kind of puts it all into perspective for me. Yeah. And apparently, like, when we've talked to different experts about divorce, when I've read books about what leads to marriages ending, oftentimes you have contempt. Contempt, apparently, is one of the largest indicators. But there's also the aspect of couples not being able to remember the good days, not being able to remember a time where they were happy with their partner. And so that's why I like looking back at old videos, because it kind of just tells your brain, er, you're wrong. Look at you. You're happy right here. You love your life right here. This can be you again. This is in store for you again. You're just in a season or a very brief, tiny little moment of time where you're frustrated and this is just a little blip. Life isn't perfect. Get over it. Figure it out.

[B]

I'm lucky that I have a husband that sees life that way and sees marriage that way and prioritizes it like that. And, yeah, I do think back to when we first got married. I'm like, gosh, we basically were gambling.

[A]

Yeah, we kind of did.

[B]

We really weren't because we had, like, had so many discussions. We had mentors, we had so many long, deep talks about, like, why are we doing this? Like, all these different things. But, yeah, in the end, like, people. People change over time, and it's just important that you change together.

[A]

You know, it's so interesting. Do you know which month Kim Kardashian and Kanye west got divorced? Guess what month?

[B]

Probably January.

[A]

It was actually February, but still, like, just again, beginning of the year.

[B]

That's a sad one, because there's Valentine's Day in there.

[A]

I know. Maybe Kim just decided that she didn't want to celebrate one more Valentine's Day with Kanye, actually.

[B]

That's sad.

[A]

I also think he was going through a lot of mental health stuff, which, like, I think was just hard on them. But I don't want to speculate about them. We're here to talk about us. Abby, what do you think are the most cited reasons for divorce?

[B]

Cheating.

[A]

Yep. Infidelity. Okay.

[B]

I read this thing.

[A]

Oh, wait, you already know what these are.

[B]

I remember lack of communication, which. That's so broad that you can't file for that.

[A]

Poor communication. Well, I think if. If you're unable to communicate effectively with your partner, that I feel like that's just a disaster.

[B]

No, but. No, no, I feel like everyone struggles with communication at times.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then it's like, you just gotta get back on, you know, I think that's like a. That's early down the road, and then true conspire.

[A]

Yeah. If you're dealing with some poor communication, go to freaking therapy, dude. I. I think there's. There's still so much.

[B]

It's expensive.

[A]

Well, yeah, therapy is expensive.

[B]

And a lot of. I feel like a lot of times one of the spouses is, like, super against it still. Even nowadays.

[A]

Okay. Even. Even just having friends that are also married, they put things into reality.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Their struggles are the same.

[B]

One of my best advice. Pieces of advice for newlyweds is to surround yourself with other married people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That like, have marriages that you also admire.

[A]

Yes. No, I think when I hang out with my buddies who I literally just met because they're the husbands of the people that you're friends with at the gym, but they're my friends now. We all have the same problems. It's like, man, you guys have that same stupid thing happen to you. Oh, my gosh. Yes. What's up with this? Your wife complained about that too. Oh, my gosh. We all have the same problems.

[B]

You just need a gripe.

[A]

I think a little bit of that is okay every once in a while.

[B]

No, I think it's healthy, but you.

[A]

Don'T want to, like, you don't want to trash. You want to speak highly of your spouse.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Yeah. But I think it's a way to do it. Yeah, there's. There's like a. There's a healthy way to be honest.

[B]

About, like, hey, we're having this. This thing come up, and, like, that feels productive. And then one that's like, okay, you're just trying to bash on your wife.

[A]

Abby pulled up an article about the occupation.

[B]

I was curious about this because, like, more on the topic of thinking about. I'm like, gosh, this has been on my mind a lot recently thinking about the fact that a lot of people like couples and families that are on reality tv break apart.

[A]

Why is that?

[B]

I think about every TLC family and every.

[A]

You know, we just had Lydia Plath on the show. Her parents got a divorce. We've had, you know, a very sweet couple. Zach. Why am I blanking on their names right now?

[B]

Tori. The Roloffs.

[A]

Zach and Tori Roloff.

[B]

Zach's parents, John and K. Plus eight.

[A]

Divorce.

[B]

Like, all of these there. It's just. It's running rampant on the reality TV side.

[A]

Social media couples, too. It's so many couples.

[B]

Social media side, too, yes. So that's the thing about. I'm like, obviously these. These things haven't made it to the list yet. Also, they're kind of niche still. Like, so that's not gonna probably make it on list like this. But which was more reason why I said, like, that's why. Like, I feel like we wouldn't really be in like, we probably go to marriage therapy like once every three, four weeks.

[A]

Yeah, it's like a once a month.

[B]

Thing that we do, but we probably wouldn't need that. I mean, I don't think we would choose to do that if we didn't work together.

[A]

Did you know what the percentage of marriages that end divorce is?

[B]

It's like 50%.

[A]

Yeah, it's like 40 to 50. So that's. Yeah, that's what I read.

[B]

Okay, so here are the occupations. Some of them I was like, yeah, that checks out. The other ones I was pretty surprised by.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

One of them was bartenders, which.

[A]

That kind of makes sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you're a bartender, I feel like you're in a flirtatious environment.

[B]

This is also over generalization. But you're working late night.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You're in a very casual atmosphere where alcohol is involved.

[A]

People are dressed up, a lot of flirting. People making dumb decisions when they're drunk.

[B]

Like you can also. You have weird hours too. So it's easy to like.

[A]

I feel like if you're a bartender, it'd be safer to be a bartender with your spouse. Like if you're bartenders together, like, you see your.

[B]

Well, I'm sure there's a lot of bartenders and healthy, happy, committed relationships, but this is just a pattern.

[A]

True.

[B]

Military supervisors.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Now this one is interesting because I would have thought, I know military in general doesn't have a great reputation for.

[A]

Yeah, I, I have heard about that. I think there's a lot of people that, there's. That being away from your spouse, a lot of cheating goes on. Infidelity. But then there's also the aspect of if you get married in the military, you get more money from the military. So people will get married and then divorce.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I guess you're saying, like maybe they weren't.

[A]

They did it for the money. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But this was supervisors. So it says military supervisors have difficult, high stress jobs that send them all over the world. So I guess it's the same reason. I guess it's like maybe non supervisors, but people in the military experience. Next is medical and healthcare workers. I'm sure that's also related to probably.

[A]

That's actually surprising to me.

[B]

Medical stress. And they work really like long, odd hours.

[A]

Yeah, I guess. I guess working odd hours, especially if.

[B]

You'Re never doing nights, you're never home.

[A]

Not being home. That's sad.

[B]

Yeah. That's really sad. And health care workers sacrifice so much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I can easily see where it's like, I can no longer prioritize this marriage because this. This occupation is like, do they have any. Taking all of me.

[A]

They have stats on these people. Like, do they have any numbers associated with, like, the medical and health. What?

[B]

I do know that even within the medical field, like, certain jobs, I think it's like, brain surgeons, like, have a really high divorce.

[A]

Why brain surgeons?

[B]

I don't know. I don't. I can't. I'm not. I'm not here to speculate on the data.

[A]

Yeah, but.

[B]

And I don't even quote me on that. But I'm like, that's just what it's saying.

[A]

You're so pretty, it's distracting right now.

[B]

That's ridiculous.

[A]

You need to go ahead and, like, wear some sunglasses. You have really pretty eyes.

[B]

Next is gaming service workers, which is like, people, like, running casino games and stuff. It's like, I feel like that's kind of in the same category as is like, bartenders. Same type of atmosphere. Flight attendants.

[A]

Why would a flight attendant.

[B]

I guess they're traveling a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're in new locations. No one would tell them you could get away with it so easily. It's like, I was in Belgium. No one saw me.

[A]

So then who. Which occupations have the best rates?

[B]

Wait, let me finish these really quick.

[A]

Marital success.

[B]

This one. This one is weird to me.

[A]

What?

[B]

Telemarketers and switchboard operators.

[A]

What? What is a switchboard operator? Is that something from, like, the 1800s?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

A switchboard.

[B]

It says they were completely different jobs, but the details surrounding these jobs are the same. They send a chair day and deal with phones. Telemarketers attempt to sell products or services. And switchboard operators connect callers to other people who can solve their problems. They're both speaking with people on the phone all day, and people on the other end are likely stressed out or unhappy. Many people find these professions to be unfulfilling. And nobody likes to spend the entire day getting yelled at by strangers. That's hard to cope with a job you don't like that leaves you feeling exhausted at the end of the day.

[A]

Okay, babe, that is my hot take. All right. I think way more than, like, the marriage itself or the relationship itself. I think outside factors play a much bigger role in divorce than people like.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Than people think.

[B]

It's not necessarily the marriage that's hard. It's that life.

[A]

Life is Hard. Life is hard.

[B]

And you're both individuals living life, and you're showing up in your marriage and.

[A]

You'Re responding differently to the situation, which then can build resentment, which can lead to conflict, which can lead to one person being like, why are you reacting this way? Why? I saw you smile. Are you. How are you happy right now? And we just. This thing just happened. Right, Right. So I think when life gets hard, I think, you know, we had Brooklyn and Bailey on the podcast two years ago, and something that they said was, they don't think marriage is hard. They think life is hard. And I would 100% agree with that.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'll go through the rest of this list really quick, though. But dancers, fire dancers and choreographers. This one surprised me. Massage therapist.

[A]

That's why that surprised you. That's funny.

[B]

And this one's really weird. Textile knitting and weaving machine operators.

[A]

These are some weird.

[B]

Don't find yourself in that profession.

[A]

If you want to be a textile knitting machine operator, don't do it. You will. Your relationship will likely be.

[B]

There's no clear correlation or speculation as to why this industry is so heavily affected by divorce. They're like, we don't know, but very interesting. And I feel like, you know, if we were to look onto reality TV and, yeah. Social media people.

[A]

So we've talked. We've talked a lot about divorce. It seems.

[B]

It seems like we need to have some positive stats on.

[A]

Yeah, it seems like marriage is doomed. It's like, hey, is marriage even worth it? Why the heck? A lot of people listening into this probably married, probably want to get married or know someone that's married. Is marriage worth it? Well, before we get into the positive stuff, let's talk about gray divorce. Great. Divorce is actually a trend going back to the negative. It's divorce rates for people that are like, 50 plus and it's doubled. The rate of divorce in people that are 50 plus has doubled since 1990, while those. While those. For. While the rate for people that are 65 plus has nearly tripled, according to Pew Research. Is not. Is that not crazy?

[B]

Well, that's really sad.

[A]

Yeah. So why is grave divorce increasing? Increased longevity. People live longer and are less willing to stay in unhappy marriages for decades, according to Purdue University.

[B]

That's a weird way to analyze that generation. I'm going to live at least 30 more years.

[A]

Well, if your marriage sucks and you don't like it, I mean, I guess.

[B]

But then that flip side of that is that they're saying that it's someone that's like 80 is like, well, I hate this person, but I'm only. I'm going to die soon, so I'll just stay in it. That's a weird way to analyze that data, in my opinion.

[A]

And then we have the emptiness factor. Couples may realize they have little in common once the children leave their home. That's really sad.

[B]

That is sad. And I can see that happening.

[A]

And that's why right now, with us.

[B]

Having kids, that's why you prioritize your first.

[A]

We put us first. We prioritize our marriage, and we put us first. We love each other more than we can.

[B]

It's something we have to constantly remind ourselves because it's. It's so easy to slip into that.

[A]

Well, I think it's almost like, almost an evolutionary thing where, like, your brain, once you're. It's like prioritizing your offspring and you're like, I gotta. You know, this is my legacy. This is what's gonna keep spreading my DNA.

[B]

You know, we also have to clarify, this means that doesn't mean you get to be a bad parent.

[A]

Oh, no, not at all. You need to be an amazing parent. But I think it makes you a better parent when your kids see you loving your spouse.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It makes you a better father.

[B]

You can do both.

[A]

It makes you a better father and a better example to your. Your young boys when you show them how to love their mom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you don't. And you don't just tell them you exact. You lead by example. Your kids are watching you at all times.

[B]

Yeah. And also, I don't think that one has to come at the cost of the other.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Both can be important in the same breath.

[A]

Yes. But with all of that negative news about divorce, it's very sad.

[B]

Very sad. You finally transition into the positive. You dangled that earlier.

[A]

These are some uplifting stats about marriage. So marriage actually comes with higher thriving rates. Married people, especially ages 25 to 50, are significantly more likely to thrive. And then also there's a happiness boost, which this makes sense to me. Like, I've heard of married couples because they're checking in on each other. They're making sure that the person's taking their medicine or going to therapy or getting checked out if they're sick. Like, people live longer when they're married, too. There's a bunch of data and research to support that. But not only does it make you live longer, but there's also. There's research to support people being happier when they're married. So married individuals report being significantly Happier. With some analysis showing them 30 points happier than unmarried counterparts points.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I guess that's just. I guess the points is a percentage. And this is again, research from Gallup and life satisfaction studies show married people report higher overall life satisfaction and happiness.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

I feel like that all is not surprising. Like, that all makes sense.

[A]

Yeah. So there's a lot of health benefits, a lot of positive, you know, feelings and emotions that you get with marriage. And I think while people can sometimes, like, it's easy to. When, when life's not going your way just to find, find something to gripe about. Oh, it's my marriage. It's. This could be better. Oh, my. Like, maybe maybe your life is just hard because life is hard and has nothing to do with your spouse at all. Or maybe it's. Maybe you're the problem too. Like, that's something that's a reality I've had to face myself whenever I'm facing a struggle or a challenge in our marriage, and it's like, hey, how am I being a good spouse?

[B]

That's very mature.

[A]

What am I doing to love and serve Abby? Like, if I want her to be this perfect person for me, maybe I first need to be this perfect person for her.

[B]

I actually have to go to the bathroom really quick.

[A]

Oh, yeah, you can go pee real quick. Well, guys, while Abby's taking a quick potty break, I do want to fill you in on a new segment we're going to try out today. We're playing Agree to Disagree. We've played this game for an entire episode before, but I actually want to try ending an episode with an Agree to Disagree relating to the topic of the episode today, which was divorce. Let us know what you think about this and while you're letting us know, please be sure to hit the subscribe button. It really helps us out. And if you haven't left us a review before in our podcast, that would actually mean a lot if you just go, leave a quick review. It literally takes 10 seconds. You can just say love it and then tap how many stars you want to tap and you're done. Have you been putting off starting a business that you've been dreaming about for years? Because we ourselves are actually starting up a new business this year. We're very excited and we're doing it with today's sponsor of this portion of the episode, Shopify. Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person. Millions of entrepreneurs have already made this leap from household names to first time business owners. Just getting started. I don't know about you guys, but I really like how easy and seamless. Shopify makes the whole day, every experience for you as the business owner, it's not too hard to set up a website with them. They like help manage everything and make it streamlined so you don't have to deal with the headaches that business owners used to deal with years ago when. When a platform like Shopify didn't exist.

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[A]

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[A]

All right, Abby, welcome back. We've now made it to the section of the show where we will be playing. Agree to disagree.

[B]

That sounds fun.

[A]

Let's play the game. That sounds fun to me too. First question or first agree to disagree. Prompt unhappiness alone is a valid reason for divorce. I'm gonna say strongly disagree. Yeah, I'm gonna say strongly disagree.

[B]

Your feelings don't tell you the truth, Hunter.

[A]

Your feelings lie to you all the time. All the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Your feelings are liars.

[B]

Should I quote John Deloney one more time?

[A]

I was gonna quote Arthur Brooks.

[B]

Okay, do that.

[A]

How sick is that that we get to interview these experts on our show.

[B]

On our way there?

[A]

How the heck did we con our way here, man? High five. Go us.

[B]

But no. Your feelings are made to keep you safe, but they're not there to tell you the truth.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Your feelings can. Can go on all kinds of crazy roller coasters, valleys, mountains. And that's normal. We don't. We don't need to be alarmed at that. That doesn't mean we need to acknowledge them. We can honor them, validate them, but we cannot use that as like it's Saying that that factor alone is making this decision for me. If you make every decision in your life based on your feelings, you are living a rather aimless life.

[A]

I love how we chatted with Arthur. He talked about how we're gifted with this prefrontal cortex and we're supposed to use it, we're supposed to decipher all the feelings that we have and understand do we agree with them? Like, is the feeling that I have valid? I mean, I mean the reality is like we're allowed to feel all these. There's nothing wrong with feeling a certain way. Yeah, but it's what you do with that information. Yes.

[B]

Dangerous.

[A]

That's like deciding that you're a monkey, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or they just go based off their. Like you're a three year old. A three year old just goes off of their feelings all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, what separates you, a grown up with a developed prefrontal cortex from a three year old if you're just going to go off of your feelings all.

[B]

The time is complex decision making.

[A]

So I agree. I think that's really good. Next. Agree. Disagree. Prompt marriage should be hard to leave. I'm going to say agree. Yeah, I'm going to say agree. I almost said disagree because I think like for women, or I guess there's men too, that can be stuck in a domestic violence situation, they definitely need to get out. Like that's not safe for them or the kids.

[B]

Either way, though, it's hard though, if you marry someone assuming like marriage is forever, to have to rewrite the rest of your life. Yeah, that should be hard.

[A]

Yeah, I think, I think it is hard. I think it's hard for a reason. I think that's why you need to put so much thought and care and time into the decision to get married.

[B]

And get this. Staying married is hard too.

[A]

Yeah, life is hard. So you got to choose your hard.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's no way to get over the fact that you're going to suffer and struggle and life is going to be hard. And that's a sad reality. But it's like, I think what makes it all worth it is having a purpose. You know, finding something that gets you up in the morning. Maybe it's a charity that you want to support, maybe it's a certain belief system that you embody and you want to, you know, share with others and share the joy that you have, but you have to find like what that purpose is in your life. I think that's how you approach the hardship of life.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

I truly believe that, like, life is hard. Marriage isn't hard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's okay to stay together for the kids. I'm gonna say disagree.

[B]

Oh. I was gonna say agree.

[A]

Oh, really? Why are you saying agree? That's interesting.

[B]

Well, I feel like maybe at times where it's like, okay, it feels like we're not, like, the. I don't. I'm not having fun with you. I'm not feeling happy around you. But we have kids together. I know that's gonna be really hard for them if you say in those, like, really, like, deep, deeply low points. I feel like anything that you can hold on to stay, and that gives you a reason to work on it is valid.

[A]

I guess I'm going from the standpoint of. Of things being very toxic. You know, maybe they're being. Maybe not dangerous, but just, like, words being said, arguments that the kids are witnessing, it's just. It's just not a good environment for.

[B]

Them to be raised in.

[A]

That. That's where I would be like, you need to get out. You know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And look like arguments are gonna happen. Our kids have seen us argue. There was a. There's a time in the car where we were not even arguing at all, but we were just talking about something.

[B]

And they rarely see us argue.

[A]

We were getting pat. But I think it's good for them to see you disagree, because then they. Because then you show them how you resolve the conflict, and then they learn conflict resolution. But no, it was funny, though, because we've. I think we've talked about this, but we were in the car and just getting passionate about something we were talking about. And, Augie, thanks for arguing. He goes, be nice.

[B]

Yeah. We were like, be nice, dad.

[A]

Dad, be nice, Mama. And we started busting our.

[B]

Making jokes.

[A]

Yeah. I thought that was so funny.

[B]

It's just because we were, like, getting loud.

[A]

Next we have. Divorce is too normalized in 2026. What are you saying? I'm saying I don't disagree.

[B]

I feel like I'm coming from such a place of, like, I'm so biased to the fact that, like, we have a good, healthy marriage.

[A]

So you're gonna say agree?

[B]

I was gonna say agree, but then I'm also like, that's fair. I've never been in, like, a terrible marriage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I don't want to just be like, yeah, it's too normal. Just stick it out. And it's like, you don't understand.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The person I'm married to is a monster. Or, you know.

[A]

Well, I think. I think yeah. To be, to be a devil's advocate. I think that we've been through terrible times in marriage. I think we've experienced terrible marriage. But I think it's immature and, like, just simply untrue to like, prescribe all those struggles to, like, your partner or the relationship. Again, because life is hard. Marriage isn't hard. It comes down to life being hard. But, yeah, I do think. I. I don't know, I just, I.

[B]

Do think just about every marriage is. Is salvageable.

[A]

I would agree with that.

[B]

So it's like, yeah, there's people that.

[A]

Have, like, pretty effed up marriages.

[B]

You have to really set your pride aside.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And seek professional help.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, maybe it is too norma. Normalize.

[A]

Emphasis on the professional help too. Because I think, like, if you're. Yeah. If stuff is pretty effed up and you're not going to professional help, like, you need get a professional. But also that's easier said than done. Like, we're, we're fortunate where we can afford therapy. Therapy is expensive.

[B]

That's what I'm saying.

[A]

You know, so if that's you. I mean, I, I know there are resources where there's like free therapies. Oftentimes it's with different religious institutions or organizations, but heck, I think that's even better than nothing, of course. But yeah, I don't know that that is, that is true, though. Like, not everyone can afford therapy. So I think we definitely are speaking from a place of privilege because we, you know, therapy is expensive. Therapy is expensive. Okay, agree to disagree. Social media encourages divorce. Yeah, I would agree with that 100% actually. Strongly agree.

[B]

Strongly agree.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like there's been times, gosh, we had a video that went. Got on the wrong side of YouTube shorts where we were making a video about Thanksgiving, and then Abby came back from the neighbors to like, bring the turkey or something, and all the comments were like, she's totally screwing the neighbor. She's totally messing around. Like, everyone hated you. And it was. And it was like, first time learning about this. Well, no, you knew about it. I took off the comments. This was back in 2021. But it's just like, it's crazy how things can end up on the wrong side of the Internet and people can just spin a narrative out of nothing. Well, it's happened for both of us.

[B]

Oh, yeah. People are just so quick to just be like, leave her. Leave him. Yeah, he's for the streets. He's terrible. Drop him. It's like, this is like people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I so quick, if I had.

[A]

A dollar for every comment or like, on a comment for people that told you to leave me, I would. I would have a lot of dollars.

[B]

Well, that's how you just know that. It's just like. It's so baseless, I think, is, like, if.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's because people.

[B]

You're a rock star husband. Like, you're an amazing husband, and you're an amazing wife.

[A]

I think people. People get frustrated with their own life circumstance, and they look at a very small snippet of life, and by saying, like, leave. Maybe they want to leave. Maybe they're in a. In a. On an unhealthy marriage and they want to leave, but they don't have the courage to get out. So I think it could probably come from that. It could probably come from people projecting.

[B]

Where they've known someone from also.

[A]

Just, like, there's so many reasons.

[B]

Yeah. Like, culture and society doesn't necessarily promote perseverance in a marriage or perseverance, honestly. I would say, in general.

[A]

What about this one? Modern marriage is harder than marriages of the past. Agree to disagree. I'm gonna say disagree.

[B]

I'm say disagree. It feels. It feels out of touch to say agree.

[A]

Oh, I think life was just way harder in the past. Like, I think people literally were, like, hunting for their food.

[B]

To be the devil's advocate, you could make the argument then that, like, marriage then now became. Because I feel like humans will create problems.

[A]

We create problems out of nothing.

[B]

And so it's like, well, if life isn't as hard now, I guess I gotta find more problems in.

[A]

Seriously, no, that's so.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

So everyone's chronically online. Like, we're nothing on the Internet. Internet.

[B]

I don't think it's harder for sure. If anything, it might be, like, a little easier because there's a lot more resources, I would say.

[A]

Oh, yeah, totally. There's Reese. Like, if you can sift through the information overload, there's. There's definitely resources out there to help support your marriage. There's. There's whole YouTube channels that aren't like. Like, this is just. We're just two people. Like, we're. We're a couple chatting about this. Like, there's resources of people that actually are actual. Have, like, gone to decades of school and could give you, like. Yeah, we're just. We're just talking about this. We're creating conversation. But there'. There's a lot of information that's helpful out there. Um, okay. Commitment matters. More in marriage than compatibility matters more strongly. Oh, that's hot. T. I like that. Okay. Why does commitment matter more than compatibility? Because I was going to say agree. I think for a little bit, I was like, do I disagree because compatibility matters, But I think at the end.

[B]

Of the day, it matters so much more that you committed.

[A]

Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah. Speak to me about that. Talk to me about.

[B]

First of all, humans are not, like, we're not. Not stagnant creatures.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, we are constantly changing and evolving. So, like, you could give me a compatibility test with you when we were 17 years old, you could give me one. Now you could give me one. Like, and I'm sure those results would fluctuate greatly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, what matters is that we've committed to each other, and through that commitment, we're also shaping one another.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And therefore becoming more compatible to each other. But that's because we commit. Does that make any sense or did I just.

[A]

Yeah, I think. I think I followed that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, that's good. No, yeah, I think. I think that the commitment, like. Yeah, but by. By definition makes you more compatible.

[B]

No, I don't think that's true. I think you could commit and also stay stuck in your ways and not work on your marriage. We're like. But we're committed to this. And that's where you find the marriages that you're like, we're staying for the kids. We absolutely hate each other. Going at each other's neck every day.

[A]

Yeah, but.

[B]

But I don't think that necessarily means the same thing. But it's also, like, you can commit and then also committing to the everyday.

[A]

But it's like, are you even for the kids, if you're fighting all the time because your kids want to see you guys in love, they want to see you getting along.

[B]

Yeah. That's a different conversation.

[A]

Yeah, I like where you're going.

[B]

Sorry. Not to dismiss what you said. That is true. But that's not exactly the point I was making.

[A]

I like the way. Okay, restate the point you're making. Go.

[B]

It's one thing to commit the day of your wedding.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And say, like, we are committed and we're staying together no matter what, and then go about the rest of your marriage and not change anything about yourself as a person. And then go at each other's knees next. Every day. It's another thing to commit every single day to your marriage. And therefore, I say when you commit every single day, you're growing in compatibility. And that first example, you're not growing in compatibility. You're just staying committed.

[A]

That reminds me of that famous quote by a president that I can't think of their name of right now. But it's like, ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.

[B]

Wow, that's.

[A]

Flip that around. Flip that around. That's. That's a famous quote by a president. I forget which one.

[B]

Probably like Teddy Roosevelt.

[A]

Ask not what your spouse can do for you, but what you can do for your spouse. I think if you wake up every day and you ask yourself the question, how can I serve and love my spouse today? I think you're gonna end up with a really happy marriage. If you're both truthfully, honestly doing that, that's a really good spot to be.

[B]

Incredible. I feel like you'd be stronger than 90% of marriages if you do that.

[A]

100%.

[B]

I'm throwing stats out there left and right.

[A]

Okay, next up, we have. Marriage is unrealistic because people change over time. Strongly disagree. Let's go.

[B]

And I think because people change over time is why marriage is so freaking cool. Well, and that's why I can grow stronger. And that's why it can and it should grow stronger.

[A]

Yeah. You're going to change. So why not choose to change in a direction that you want to go in?

[B]

Yeah. I think about a tree with their roots. They grow around each other.

[A]

Yeah. Intertwine.

[B]

Your roots keep getting deeper, but they're intertwined.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Struggling together.

[A]

That's beautiful. I love you. Think you're super hot.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And next we have. Divorce is more common today because people give up faster. I'm gonna say disagree. What are you gonna say?

[B]

I agree.

[A]

You agree?

[B]

Well, I think I do. Because first of all, if we're looking at history, it wasn't even an option for women for so long.

[A]

That's a good point.

[B]

So it's like. I mean, and I feel like give up is given such a negative connotation, but, like, no, I genuinely give up because this person is not. Is not there for me.

[A]

I. The reason I said disagree is I think if you look at history, people literally couldn't get divorced.

[B]

That's what I'm saying.

[A]

In the past, when you say agree, you said agree. You said. You said people give it faster today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm confused. Am I overthinking this?

[B]

Next question.

[A]

That's it. We hit all. Okay, now we're gonna move on to user submitted questions. Thank you to everyone. That was actually really fun. I feel like we should bring that segment back. If you guys want us to bring that segment back back, let us know in the comments. Cuz agree. Disagree is a really fun game to play. First question we have from this is Gabriella, what are some things you guys did to relight the spark when things felt hard?

[B]

Fake it till you make it.

[A]

Honestly. Yeah, no, that's really good. That's really, really good. Cuz I think that like time heals. I think just you're, you just decide like this sucks. But I'm going to keep going forward.

[B]

I'm going to give a silly example, but true. Trust me when I say that this can be used in deeper scenarios.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So sometimes when we're mad at each other, we've talked about this a lot. We'll play a card game together and that is an example of faking it till you make it because you're doing an activity together. There's so many things about it. Like why that's good.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But also just like, hey, we're playing game together. You're not thinking about whatever you were mad about or all the things that were upsetting you. But you have a common shared goal of playing this game technically against each other. But this probably wouldn't work if you're really competitive people. But at that point, like it's a way of faking it till you're making it because we're playing games inherently is something you do with friends, people you're. You enjoy and so yeah, I think pretty soon you'll find yourself in a much happier place together.

[A]

I agree. I agree. I think, I think fake it to make it is a real thing. I. Or there's another. I heard of this another saying. It sounds so cheesy. Another one is believe it till you achieve it. Believe that your marriage is going to work till you achieve that marriage. We also have. Do y' all think it's wrong for people to get back together after divorce? Absolutely not. If you think you can work it out, oh my gosh, go back. I think that could be a very good thing. But I think you might need to make some changes from. There needs to be some serious change from what the relationship was before.

[B]

Yeah. Do a lot of reconstructing before you dive back in.

[A]

This question's really good. Actually goes right in line. What we talked about earlier, earlier, why do you feel.

[B]

I'm sorry to interrupt. It does make me very. I'm very curious now what the rates are. Divorce after you remarry the same person.

[A]

Oh, someone let us know in the Comments.

[B]

I would. I would imagine.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not seeing. The success rate is low. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, the success rate is low. Yeah.

[A]

Why do you feel like a lot of influencer couples get divorced?

[B]

So many people are commenting and making videos on their marriage, and it's.

[A]

That.

[B]

That's not healthy.

[A]

Yeah, it's a d. It's dangerous.

[B]

It's a dangerous game to play.

[A]

Like, I. Honestly, you guys, like, I think, you.

[B]

Know, I don't look at any of that Schn.

[A]

That. And honestly, I'll just be real with you guys. That's why, like, I. I. Abby and I are having this conversation today because I feel like our marriage is in a very healthy, happy, good spot. So I. I feel. Com. I think we feel comfortable to talk about such a taboo, controversial topic. But, like, I really like doing guest episodes because I like to. I like to talk about other people, not myself. Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's not healthy.

[A]

Yeah, it's not healthy to, like, it can definitely get unhealthy when you put yourself out there. Like, think about it. If you yourself had millions of people commenting about your life and your spouse and your partner and saying, you know, positive, negative things about you and the other person, and then you intermix pride with that. You intermix, like, fame with that. Universe, money with that. It can get really complicated.

[B]

So I think it's only dangerous if you drink it, though, because I don't. I don't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't partake in that schnizness.

[A]

Yeah. I think that's why you can't let the money and fame go to your head for any person that's involved in entertainment at all. And I think that can. I can. I think that can cause problems in marriages, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Thoughts on separating before officially divorcing?

[B]

Maybe a good idea?

[A]

Probably. Yeah. Just to, like. Just to really think. Think it through. Like, is this actually what I want?

[B]

And maybe you can do some independent healing and then show up differently in your marriage.

[A]

How do you settle debts related to gambling in a divorce? My gosh. I don't know what you would do with that. That probably hire an accountant to look through everything.

[B]

No, I think what you got to do first is your. Make sure your spouse doesn't have access to your credit. You got to cut them off, freeze.

[A]

Your credit, cut them off, make sure that you're. You're keeping yourself and your kids safe. Because if you're. If you're married to someone with a gambling addiction or a money issue, they could be ruining your credit. Your Kids, credit, they could be ruining you financially. So you got to really take steps to protect yourself. And if you don't know what to do, find someone, a trusted friend, colleague, maybe somebody at work, someone at your, you know, church, synagogue, whatever, to help walk alongside you. Because I. I really do believe that there are so many good people out there that if you tell them what's going on, they would love to help you.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And last question is, have you ever considered it? We have answered this before.

[B]

We've answered, have you ever considered divorce?

[A]

Yeah, we've. We've, like, considered it in our heads. We've never, like, legitimately out gone through with anything like that and.

[B]

Well, not even close.

[A]

Yeah, not yet. Not even close.

[B]

I mean, has the thought entered your head?

[A]

Yeah, but I mean, I think it's.

[B]

There's a really great example of emotions not giving them the driver's seat.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's too, like, if you allow that thought to enter your head and you really think it through, I think. I think it also will challenge you to look at yourself and say, like, am I. I have all these expectations for my spouse. What about me? Am I holding up my hand?

[B]

Am I squeaky clean?

[A]

Other deals in. And I think. I think all these things are really good to talk through in therapy, but we've. We've thought about it. We've never actually done it. We love each other. And I feel so, so lucky that I get to be married to such a beautiful, loving, kind woman that's just an amazing friend, an amazing mom, an amazing public figure. You're a great example. There's so many women out there. I really do believe that.

[B]

And now I'm embarrassed.

[A]

I think you give back a lot, and I love that you are always thinking about others.

[B]

You're super sweet, awesome husband, and I'm really grateful that we're both committed to constantly working on us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And constantly committed also to V. Like putting each other higher than ourselves.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

That's essentially like what marriage is.

[A]

100.

[B]

You before me and we before me.

[A]

That's right. Well, you guys, thank you for tuning in. This was a good, messy, real unfiltered combo about marriage. If you want more conversations like this, this let us know in the comments. And again, thank you to everyone that subscribed and left a review on Spotify or Apple. It really means so much to us. We'll see you in the next episode.

[B]

Love you, babe.

[A]

I love you. I love you, baby. Brought to you by the Capital One Saver card with Saver, you earn unlimited 3% cash back on dining, entertainment and at grocery stores. That's unlimited cash back on ordering takeout from home. Home or unlimited cash back on tickets to concerts and games. So grab a bite, grab a seat and earn unlimited 3% cash back with the Saver card. Capital One what's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com for details.