Elizabeth Smart: Kidnapped at 14 & held captive for 9 months

Summary

---

The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby

Episode: Elizabeth Smart: Kidnapped at 14 & held captive for 9 months

Date: April 8, 2026
Guests: Elizabeth Smart
Hosts: Matt & Abby Howard

---

Episode Overview

This profound and harrowing episode features Elizabeth Smart, who at 14 was kidnapped from her home and held captive for nine months. Now an advocate for victims’ rights and the founder of a nonprofit, Elizabeth joins Matt & Abby for an authentic, vulnerable conversation about survival, resilience, healing, trauma-informed parenting, flaws in societal messaging around sexual violence, and the ongoing journey toward justice and empowerment for all survivors.
Trigger warning: This episode contains discussions of sexual assault, abuse, and trauma.

---

Key Discussion Points

Sharing Her Story: From Silence to Advocacy

• Reluctance to Share: After her rescue, Elizabeth didn't want to talk about the events ([02:11]). She dreaded her story being public, citing shame and an intense legal process.
  • “When I was first rescued, I didn’t want to talk about what had happened. I didn’t want anyone to know anything that had happened. And I just wanted it to stay in my past.” (Elizabeth, 02:11)
• Turning Point: After a lengthy legal process and meeting other survivors, Elizabeth realized her story could help others break free from shame and silence.
• Meeting Victims: Many felt alone because “nobody else was out there sharing their story.” Her own advocacy grew from this understanding.

The Night of the Kidnapping

• Events Recalled: Elizabeth describes her ordinary day and the terrifying moment she woke up to a stranger at her bedside ([06:41]).
  • "'I have a knife at your neck, don’t make a sound. Get up and come with me.'" (Elizabeth, recalling her kidnapper's words, 06:41)
• Immediate Response: There was no thought of resistance; the fear and knife at her neck made any disobedience unthinkable ([07:15]).

Trauma, Shame, and the Role of Social Messaging

• Internalized Shame: Elizabeth explains feeling worthless and unlovable due to messaging about sex from her religious upbringing ([09:06]).
  • “If you have sex before marriage, it’s like you’re a chewed up piece of gum ... sex before marriage means you’re dirty, means you’re worthless, means you’re not as worthy.” (Elizabeth, 09:06)
• Call for Comprehensive Education: She passionately advocates for teaching about consent, abuse, and coercion, warning against shaming language—especially in religious or abstinence-focused settings ([09:45-11:36]).

Education and Prevention

• Comprehensive Approach: Elizabeth pleads for education about abuse “from every angle: home, schools, churches, community centers” ([13:39]).
  • “It should be approached from all sides... When I go out and speak, I’ll ask people, what do you do if you catch on fire? ... Why are people being sexually abused so much more than people are catching on fire? Why do we teach kids to stop, drop and roll and we don’t teach them how to approach sexual assault?” (Elizabeth, 14:16)
• Shocking Statistics: Shares that about 1 in 5 women nationally experience sexual violence—higher among minorities ([15:04]), underscoring the need for reform.

Criminal Justice & System Failings

• Victimization of Minorities: Discusses jurisdictional challenges, lack of public attention, and the disproportionate impact of sexual violence in indigenous and marginalized communities ([15:42-17:33]).
• Systemic Problems: Her experience revealed inadequacies in child advocacy procedures at the time. She describes feeling retraumatized by insensitive questioning and unprepared interviewers ([22:04-23:10]).
• Improvements Since: Outlines how children’s centers now strive for trauma-informed, streamlined care: female interviewers, single-location multidisciplinary teams, and gentler approaches ([30:50-34:37]).

Healing and Family Life

• Parenting Choices: Elizabeth starts boundary, consent, and body terminology conversations early—with transparency and no shame ([20:04]).
  • “Teach them to say penis, teach them to say vagina or vulva. And don’t attach shame to it...” (Elizabeth, 20:04)
• No Sleepovers Rule: New policies for her children; she prioritizes their safety, banning sleepovers and keeping communication open ([62:00]).
• Consent, Communication, and Safety: Empowers her kids to assert bodily autonomy and encourages regular, open dialogue on these difficult topics ([61:50]).

Debunking Myths & Nuanced Realities

• Stranger Danger is a Myth: Most abusers are trusted adults or family, not strangers; law enforcement protocols reflect this ([26:15]).
• Complex Trauma Responses: Explains appeasement as a survival strategy, distinct from Stockholm Syndrome ([50:43]).
• Manipulation and Coping: Used captors’ religious language to increase her odds of survival ([52:12]); fighting “not to offend” can undermine intuition and safety ([66:13]).

Forgiveness and Moving Forward

• Redefining Forgiveness: Forgiveness isn’t absolution for wrongdoing; rather, it’s self-love and laying down the weight of the past ([36:45]).
  • “I think forgiveness is the greatest gift of self-love. It’s loving yourself enough to put down the weight of your past.” (Elizabeth, 37:12)
• Family Support: Shares her mother's wisdom:
  • “‘The best punishment you can give them is to be happy and not let them steal a single second more.’” (Elizabeth, quoting her mother, 36:06)

Aftermath, Intimacy, and Therapy

• Reentry and Peer Relationships: Students rarely asked about her ordeal, a kindness but also a barrier ([75:42-76:16]).
• Intimacy After Trauma: Found healing in a loving marriage: “It’s always been like, consent. ... True intimacy is not the same thing as rape. They are different things.” ([68:53])
• Therapy: Never went to therapy specifically for her kidnapping, but did for her parents’ divorce. Advocates for therapy as needed ([72:28-73:07]).

Advocacy & Foundation

• Foundation’s Work: Offers self-defense programs, survivor platforms, education for parents and children ([77:41-78:54]); annual fundraiser announced for May 13.
• Advice to Parents: The most important lesson is to instill unconditional love and maintain open, non-shaming communication ([78:54-79:53]).

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Motivation to Survive:
  • “Eventually I realized that maybe I’d be looked at differently by people who didn’t know me, but ultimately my family would still love me and that would be worth surviving for.”
    — Elizabeth, [08:34]
• On Harmful Messaging:
  • “That mentality is poison to any other young man who has ever been sexually abused, because they look at themselves and think, well, I’m weak, I’m a man, I should be enjoying this.”
    — Elizabeth, [13:31]
• On Societal Blindspots:
  • "Why do we teach stop, drop and roll, but not how to approach sexual assault?"
    — Elizabeth, [14:22]
• On Parental Advice:
  • “The right time to start talking about things is when your kids start asking questions.”
    — Elizabeth, [20:04]
• On Boundaries:
  • “If you don’t want to give a hug to someone, you don’t have to.”
    — Elizabeth, [61:50]
• On Forgiveness:
  • "Forgiveness is loving yourself enough to put down the weight of your past."
    — Elizabeth, [37:12]
• On Survival Tactics:
  • Can you describe "appeasement" as a trauma response?
    • “It’s basically where your life is on the line and you’re doing everything you can to stay alive. ... from the outside looking in, it looks like you’re complicit, but you’re just doing what you have to do to survive.”
      — Elizabeth, [50:43]
• On Advocacy:
  • “Don’t let these conversations just happen once and never revisit them. Make them a regular part of your life.”
    — Elizabeth, [78:54]
• On Unconditional Love:
  • “Let them know that they are loved unconditionally, traditionally.”
    — Elizabeth, [79:53]

---

Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | Speaker | |-----------|--------------------------------------------|-----------------| | 02:11 | Why Elizabeth chooses to speak out | Elizabeth | | 06:41 | Recalling the moment of kidnapping | Elizabeth | | 09:06 | Impact of abstinence-only messaging, shame | Elizabeth | | 11:36 | Changing educational approaches | Elizabeth | | 14:16 | Stop, drop & roll vs. abuse education | Elizabeth | | 22:04 | Challenges at the Children’s Justice Center| Elizabeth | | 30:50 | Recent trauma-informed interview reforms | Elizabeth | | 36:06 | Mother's advice after rescue | Elizabeth | | 36:45 | Elizabeth’s definition of forgiveness | Elizabeth | | 46:00 | Threats to family, impact on survival | Elizabeth | | 50:43 | Trauma response: appeasement explained | Elizabeth | | 61:50 | Teaching consent and safety to children | Elizabeth | | 68:53 | Navigating intimacy after assault | Elizabeth | | 72:28 | Experiences with therapy | Elizabeth | | 78:00 | Foundation’s advocacy & fundraiser | Elizabeth | | 78:54 | Advice for parents about communication | Elizabeth | | 79:53 | The necessity of unconditional love | Elizabeth |

---

Memorable Moments

• Library Encounter: Elizabeth’s near-rescue in a public library, the paralyzing fear, and why victims can’t always “just ask for help” ([44:37-48:50]).
• Power of a Parent's Words: Quoting her mother’s urgent wisdom about reclaiming joy as the “best punishment” ([36:06]).
• Challenging “Chewed Gum” Metaphor: The devastating effect of shaming purity tropes in religious settings ([09:06-11:00]).
• On Parenting Now: How her lived experience drives her approach to safeguarding and educating her children ([20:04], [61:50], [62:00]).

---

Conclusion

This episode delivers a courageous, unflinching, and deeply empathetic examination of trauma and recovery—not just for Elizabeth, but for all survivors. Listeners are forced to confront how society’s failures and silence perpetuate harm. Elizabeth’s narrative is ultimately one of defiant resilience, informed advocacy, and hope: that greater awareness, better education, and unconditional love can lead to safer, more understanding communities for all.

---

For support or more information:
RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline: 800-656-HOPE or rainn.org

Learn more:

• Elizabeth Smart Foundation
• Elizabeth’s book & YouTube channel (as mentioned in the episode)

---

Transcript

[A]

Taxact knows filing taxes can be confusing. So we have live experts on hand who can help answer any questions you may have. Questions like can I claim my SUV is my home office? If I answer work emails in my car? If I adopted 12 dogs this year, can I list them as dependents and am I doing this right or am I doing this very very wrong? Our experts have the answers to those questions and many others. Tax Act. Lets get them over with. You were so many times. Was there ever just a point where you just like, I'm just gonna lay back and enjoy it. Elizabeth Smart. Elizabeth Smart. Elizabeth Smart.

[B]

Brian David Mitchell broke into their home and kidnapped Elizabeth.

[C]

What were the words that you heard that woke you up?

[A]

I have a knife at your neck. Don't make a sound. Get up and come with me. Smart says she was repeatedly each day during her ordeal.

[C]

Was there ever a concern of pregnancy?

[A]

Of course. I'm a very late bloomer.

[C]

You started while you were cancer.

[A]

The man is Brian David Mitchell. Mitchell claims to hear the V of God. Is it worth surviving for everyone to look at me differently? Is it worth surviving if nobody is ever going to love me or want to be with me?

[B]

How does the teaching in the church need to change?

[A]

I really don't care what your beliefs are. You have to teach the other side.

[B]

Did you forgive your captors?

[A]

I think I probably have my own definition of forgiveness.

[B]

Trigger Warning this episode contains detailed discussions and depictions of sexual assault and involving minors. We understand this material is deeply disturbing and can be triggering for survivors. Please prioritize your well being. If you or someone you know has experienced sexual assault, support is available and healing is possible. You can reach the RAIN National Sexual Assault Hotline at 800656 hope or connect [e-mail] reporting can save a life. Elizabeth welcome to Unplanned. Thanks for being here.

[C]

Thank you so much for being here. I feel like every parent's biggest irrational fear is that their child would be taken from the home in the middle of the night without them knowing. And that became a reality for you and your family. Why do you choose to continue to share your story and what do you hope people gain from our conversation here today?

[A]

Well, initially I. When I was first rescued, I didn't want to talk about what had happened. I didn't want anyone to know anything that had happened. And I just wanted it to stay in my past. I just wanted it to stay a secret. The trial took so long. I mean the better part of a decade before one of my captors was finally Prosecuted. And during that time, like, I was. Felt like I was being interrogated, but I suppose interviewed would probably be the correct word by FBI, the prosecution, really intensely. And then I had to take the stand. And I was on the stand for hours and hours. And at that point, I recognized that, like, anyone could go look up the court transcripts to find out what happened. And I remember just feeling like if my story's gonna be out there, then I want to give it my perspective, not just have it be like bullet points or facts listed out. And I want there to be some kind of purpose to it. Because from the time that I was rescued to the time that I took the stand and testified, I did have the opportunity to meet with a lot of victims. And I did hear a lot of their stories. And it was a very common theme that I heard, how they were too scared to share their stories or that they felt alone because, no, nobody else was out there sharing their story. And they felt a great sense of shame and embarrassment around what had happened to them. So I just remember it kind of felt like, I don't want to say a perfect storm, because I look back and I'm like, there's no way any of that was perfect. But for me to share my story on a bigger scale, to really step fully into advocacy, I feel like all of that played a part in getting me there.

[B]

How do you tell your story to someone that hasn't heard it before? Because obviously there's a lot of people that know your story and know it very well. But how do you explain that to someone who meets you for the first time and doesn't really know?

[A]

Well, it's not just the first words out of my mouth. It's not like, oh, hi, I'm Elizabeth. I was kidnapped. Nice to meet you. I was held captive for nine months. I mean, honestly, I want to say it's not part of my daily life. It is because I am in the field of advocacy. But I mean, if I just met someone for the first time, I probably wouldn't even bring it up. Like, I just let them get to know me for me. I mean, I feel like people find out one way or another or they're like, what do you do for a living? I'm like, oh, well, yeah, I have a non profit or, you know, I do public presentations or I speak. And they're like, oh, really? Like, what's your nonprofit about? Or, you know, like, what do you do? And then it's like, oh, well, I talk. And then they're like, oh, How'd you get into that? And I'm like, well, the whole story behind all this.

[C]

Well, actually, yeah, I've heard it said before, and it's so true. Like, if someone were to ask me, what did you do on January 16th of 2025? I'd be like, I don't. I couldn't tell you. But there's certain days that are so pivotal in your life that you probably remember every detail. I'm curious, taking you back to when you were 14 years old. Like, that day. What do you remember about that day? And then going into that evening?

[A]

I mean, honestly, like, it was a normal day. There wasn't, like, anything really crazy or abnormal about it. It was just another normal day. Went to school, came home. I mean, I come from a big family, so I had a lot of brothers and my sister kind of running around. We had dinner as a family. I mean, just my parents gathered us together for our evening prayer and then sent us into bed. And it was just. It was just another day. It was just another night.

[C]

And you were sharing a bed with your younger sister.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And around what time were you woken up, do you know?

[A]

I know at one point in time, I did actually know the exact minute because I had, like, a clock right next to me, but it's been so many years now that I feel like it was in between two and three. It was very late at night or very early in the morning, however you look at it.

[C]

And what were the words that you heard that woke you up?

[A]

So I heard a man's voice. And actually, initially, I didn't even respond at first, because you don't plan on hearing a strange voice in your room in the middle of the night. I thought it must be part of a dream, but the voice repeated the same words again, saying, I have a knife at your neck. Don't make a sound. Get up and come with me.

[C]

Wow. I can't even imagine being in that position. Did a part of you even think to scream?

[A]

No. I mean, there was a knife lying right on my neck. The first words out of his mouth, besides telling me were. Telling me he had a knife, was don't make a sound. So, no, that thought did not even cross my mind that I should do that. I mean, my life felt like I could either stay quiet and live, or I could say something and scream. It didn't really felt like there was that much of an option. And also here, at least, I feel like I was taught a lot of safety, education. I mean, you know, know you've got Fire drills, you've got earthquake drills. Like, it's stranger danger. The buddy system. Like, I think there's probably more education in schools today, like active shooter education, but I mean, that wasn't in school when I was. But there was still lots of safety education going on back then, but none of it ever covered what you should do. If you're woken up in the middle of the night with a stranger holding a knife to your neck. So it just felt like there was no option.

[B]

How did your brain start to protect you? I noticed you said something about how. Yeah, your brain kicks into protection mode and figures out a way forward. What. What did your brain do in those. In those first days, weeks, months, to protect yourself?

[A]

Initially, it just felt like devastation. Initially, I really didn't know if I could survive. I really didn't know if it was worth trying to survive. Eventually I realized that maybe I'd be looked at differently by people who didn't know me, but ultimately my family would still love me and that would be worth surviving for. So I needed to do just whatever I had to to survive.

[B]

That's an incredibly dark thought. Yeah. Why. Why did you believe a thought like that when, when you were in captivity, that maybe people weren't going to love you anymore?

[A]

Because nobody was out there talking about. Nobody openly talked about sexual assault or sexual violence. And then he talked. That even came remotely close to it, which still wasn't remotely close to it was when I'd go to church and people would be like, oh, if you have sex before marriage, it's like you're a chewed up piece of gum if you have sex before marriage. Sex before marriage is bad. Sex before marriage means you're dirty, means you're worthless, means you're not as worthy. They won't want to marry you. And first of all, I just, I want to say, like, I don't care if people believe in abstinence. I don't care if people don't believe in abstinence. Like, I really don't care what your beliefs are. I think it's fine. I just think no matter what, if you are going to teach abstinence, you have to be very clear. You have to teach the other side and be like, this is. This is abuse. This is. This is not your fault. This is not the same thing as true intimacy. This is not the same thing as consent. This is what coercion is. This is. Can still happen between a boyfriend and a girlfriend, between a husband and a wife. It's not just a stranger thing. Like, I Think you really need to spell it out because otherwise you'll be like me, where you sit there and you think, is it worth surviving for everyone to look at me differently? Is it worth surviving if nobody is ever going to love me or want to be with me? I mean, I know I'm not alone in having those thoughts. I've met too many people who've shared those same thoughts with me to know that I'm not alone.

[B]

You talked about in a YouTube video that you posted how there's a demonstration you had. I don't know where exactly this demonstration happened, but basically how you're given a piece of gum, you shoot up the piece of gum, and then you were asked, okay, now would your friend want to chew up that piece of gum too? Or it was just that.

[A]

It was at church.

[B]

Okay, at church, at church. And it just made me so sad hearing that because, yeah, I just thought about all the young girls that are taught that chewed up piece of gum demonstration, and then how that makes them feel if they are a victim of assault, of. Of, you know, insert blank. Like it just. It just made me heartbroken. And I guess the question I wanted to ask is how does the teaching in the church maybe need a change or teaching all around America and the world need to change for girls when it comes to that topic?

[A]

I mean, it doesn't need to just change for girls. It needs to change for boys too. Because ultimately, the only way we could ever fully stop sexual abuse from happening is for abusers to stop abusing. Because, I mean, my foundation, we have whole programs trying to empower victims, trying to empower women to just be able to get away safely, to take up space, to be able to at least know they're strong enough that they. They know that they can strike someone or they can kick someone or that they can do something to get away. But again, like, at the end of the day, if someone is intent on whether it's you or someone else, they will. And so the only way we can eliminate that is, is to do better on all fronts, to not just teach girls, but also teach boys. And another tragedy is, you know, boys, they are getting sexually abused not as much as girls, but still at a very high level. A very high level. And I'll never forget back when I was single, I went on a date one time with a young man, and at the end of the date, he started asking me questions. Like, we were just chatting, and then finally he's like, I just have to ask you a question. You were so many times Was there ever just a point where you just like, like, okay, well, I can't stop this from happening. So I'm just going to lay back and enjoy it. Because, you know, for me, I just feel like if there is no way out of it, I'd probably just lay back and enjoy it. And I was so shocked that anyone would ever say that to me. First of all, I was just like, are you kidding me? But then also that just like that mentality that he had in that moment, that is poisoning. Poison to any other young man who has ever been sexually abused because they look at themselves and think, well, I'm weak, I'm a man. I should be enjoying this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or like, like, I should look at this like, I'm so awesome I had this happen to me. Or I should have liked it, but I. I don't feel good inside.

[C]

Or.

[A]

I mean, it's so harmful to young men. So harmful. I mean, harmful to anyone. Harmful to everyone. So I think we have a lot to do. I mean, I feel like just as an example, this is an issue that should be really approached from every angle. Should be approached in the home, should be approached at school, community centers, churches, religions. It should be approached from all sides. So a lot of times when I go out and speak, I'll ask people, what do you do if you catch on fire? What do you do?

[B]

Stop, drop and roll.

[A]

Yeah. Did you even have to think about that answer? No, just came out.

[B]

Yeah, we were taught. I was taught it from a young age.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. When I go out and speak, I'll ask people, how many of you have actually ever used stop, drop and roll?

[B]

Wait a minute. Okay. Why is it how people are being in sexually abused so much more than people are catching on fire? Why do we teach kids to stop, drop and roll? We don't teach them how to approach sexual assault.

[A]

Exactly what I'm saying. Like, I will maybe have one or two hands go up in a room full of 600 people for stop, drop and roll. Maybe one or two hands. But like the national average for people who experience sexual violence, it's about one in five women.

[B]

Goodness.

[A]

In Utah, it's one in three.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

If you are indigenous, African American, if you are one of the minority populations, it's not if it happens to you, it's really when it happens to you. And how many times is it like

[B]

one out of two? Is it like, what are the stats there?

[A]

I mean, It's.

[B]

It's over 50%.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I couldn't spit out exact Numbers for every population. But I know if, like, you're a native or indigenous person, it's. I mean, it's almost everyone.

[B]

And why is it happening more in those communities than it is in other communities?

[A]

I feel like I'm getting into, like, more difficult territory to talk about. And I feel like certainly there are people definitely more qualified to answer this because there are some really incredible organizations led by. Created by indigenous people themselves or African Americans themselves. So definitely look them up, support them. But my understanding is that there's just different laws. If you are abused on a reservation, then it's left to, like, the reservation police. But if that person leaves the reservation, then it's kind of like, well, whose jurisdiction does that fall under? And how do I go after them? And there's just, like, a lot of. You'd think it wouldn't matter. You think, like, you see abuse happening. It wouldn't matter if you're on this side of the street or that side of the street, but it does. And then there's just. They're not as visible as, say, someone like me. I mean, as sad and as terrible as it is, like, you know, if I had different hair, if I had different skin color, would my case have gotten as much attention as it did? You know, if my family, like, didn't have the connections that they had, if. If we were in a different, you know, economic situation, would my case have gotten the same publicity that it did? It's hard for me to believe that it would have, because I don't know that I've ever seen another case receive the same level of attention that mine did, and certainly not for any of those minority groups.

[B]

Does that ever leave you with, like, a feeling of guilt?

[A]

I mean, on one hand, like, it does make me angry and upset when I think it's roughly about every 78 seconds, a person is sexually abused, and every nine minutes, that person is a child. And so it makes me really upset because you. You don't even really hear, like, the tiniest fraction of those cases. I know my case received so much, but at the same time, I also look back, and I'm kind of like, if my case hadn't have received the attention that it did, there's a pretty good chance I wouldn't be here today. So I'd say it's kind of like a catch 22.

[C]

Thank you to Shopify for sponsoring this portion of today's episode.

[B]

When starting out a new business, the to do list keeps growing every day with new tasks, and it seems never ending. Why it's important to find the right tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify.

[C]

Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. Get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style, tackle

[B]

all those important tasks in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics and and more. No need to save multiple websites or try to figure out what platform is hosting the tool that you need. Everything is all in one place, making your life easier and your business operations smoother.

[C]

And we're actually eagerly anticipating the launch of our first product, which we have used Shopify to help us get off the ground.

[B]

Thankfully, this has been a process that's been years and years and years in the making, you guys. So we're so excited to share with you what that product is this year. So stay tuned. But yeah, we're using Shopify and they've been super, super helpful. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.comunplanned go to shopify.comunplanned that's shopify.comunplanned we've had a lot of

[C]

good conversation on like, the topic of intimacy, sexual violence, consent, all these things, like with children. And now you are a mom yourself to three young kids. I'm curious when those conversations started with your own children and how they look different from how you were raised.

[A]

So one of the best pieces of parenting advice I was given was the right time to start talking about things is when your kids start asking questions. And I agree with that completely. But also I recognize the fact that these are really big, heavy, scary topics that like, of course you want to educate your kids, you want to keep them safe, but at the same time, how do you talk to them about it without scaring them? You don't want them to live in fear. Honestly, I think one of the easiest ways to begin is like, when you're talking about body parts with your kids. Like, you're like, where are your eyes? And they point to their eyes. Where's your nose? Where's your mouth, where's your elbow? And, you know, they're just learning the different names of different body parts. You know, teach them to say penis, teach them to say vagina or vulva. And don't attach shame to it because, for example, I mean, my parents just Were like, they're your privates. They're your privates. They're your privates. Like, they're privates. And that's all we really referred to them as. Then I was kidnapped. Everything happened just. I think it was the second day I was home. I was brought to the Children's justice center, where I was heavily, I'm going to say, interrogated by these two psychiatrists that my parents had been told if I had talked that them, they could stand as proxy for me during the trial. Of course, that didn't happen. But wait, why?

[B]

Why didn't. Why did that not happen?

[A]

I mean, there were just so many problems with my case. I mean, my case, it was in the state courts for almost five years. If it had hit five years, the statute of limitations would have been up and my captors would have been released. So before the five years was up, I was approached by the US Attorney's office here in Utah and asked if I wanted to move it to federal courts, if I wanted to try to press federal charges. And of course I did. I didn't want them out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then it was moved to the federal courts. But there was. I don't even know the exact reasons why they couldn't. Why they didn't end up standing witness for me or standing proxy for me, but for whatever reason, they didn't. But it was. It was a terrible experience. Experience for me. And I'm not saying these men were mean or that they weren't qualified, but I. First of all, I didn't want to go anywhere. I just got home, and then my parents are like, okay, you have to go. And I didn't like. I didn't like having my choices taken away from me because they'd all been taken away from me. For nine months, I was brought to this place. I remember they opened a closet door, and they're like, oh, here's a stuffed animal. Would you like to hold one? And I remember just thinking, where were the stuffed animals while I was being chained up? And it wasn't, if I can live through that without a stuffed animal, I don't need one now. I mean, that felt quite condescending to me. I know that they were only trying to do their best.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I just was like, that is not going to help, you know, what

[C]

I'm made of, sir.

[A]

And then I was brought into this room, and there were these two men in there. Like, I was scared to be around men. I didn't trust, men. They were roughly the same age as my captor. So that made me feel uncomfortable. And then they were both clearly religious, different religion than mine, but that also just made me feel uncomfortable because my captors had justified everything they did to me through religion. So there was nothing that felt good about this situation just from the very get go. And then as they try to find out what happened to me and as they asked questions, they got to a point where they're like, so tell me what happened. And I said, well, they hurt me. Well, how'd they hurt you? Well, they molest me. Well, how'd they molest you? Well, they, they r me and they're like, okay, well, can you tell? Do you know what is? I was like, yes. And they're like, well, can you explain what is to us? Can you tell me what exactly he did? And I was like, well, he, you know, he pushed himself inside me. And they're like, well, you need to say the anatomically correct body parts. So I had get into such detail where I was saying he was forcefully pushing his penis into my vagina repeatedly. And having never even grown up feeling comfortable saying those words, that whole experience was terrible. So now as a parent, I look at my own kids and I'm like, heaven forbid anything ever happened to you, but if it does, I want the least of your worries to be like comfortable comfort with using like body specific words. I want that to not even be a blip on your radar. Like, I want to make this as least traumatizing for you as possible and so there shouldn't be shame attached to body parts. Like, how is a penis any different from a knee or an elbow or an eye? Like it's just part of your body. And so I try my best to make sure my kids don't feel uncomfortable. So saying the correct body parts, not that I just want them running around screaming penis all day or anything else, I mean, not that that's happened, but it happens quick.

[B]

Yeah, I appreciate you saying that though, because it's easy as a parent to be like, well, you know that that happens to other people, but it's like, not my kid, you know, or I'm

[A]

too involved in my kids. I'm around my kids all the time. That won't happen. I won't let it happen.

[B]

Exactly. I'm a good dad. I'm a present father. That's never going to happen. I don't, they don't need to use the anatomically correct term, but.

[A]

Or like, you know, stranger danger. Stranger danger. Don't talk to strangers. Like, honestly, strangers are probably safer than the People, you know, most kidnappings, most abuse that takes place comes from people.

[B]

You know how is, how that, that's so upsetting to hear that. Because when I hear about or I hear about people molesting people, like I just think of it as this like stranger, this horrible, you know, bad guy from a movie type character coming in and like doing something awful. But what you're saying is it's actually people's family or friends?

[A]

Typically, yeah, yeah. It is very rare that it's a stranger. I want to say it's like 2% of the time it's a stranger. I mean we certainly hear about the stranger ones a lot more than we hear about family. But family and like kind of that, that close circle of, of people who you trust, those are the biggest threats. I mean it's why when a child is kidnapped, when a child disappears and law enforcement comes in, the first people they look at are the parents.

[B]

And that's what they did with your dad?

[A]

That's what they did with. Yeah. With my parents, yep.

[B]

Did you ever think while you were in captivity that maybe your dad was going to get wrongfully convicted?

[A]

Oh, never, not for a second. And when I was rescued and I heard that he had come under under like incredible scrutiny, I was just like, what's wrong with you? My dad would never hurt me. My dad would never kidnap me. Like, you must not be very smart if you think that. But now of course, knowing everything I know, I'm like, yeah, you know what, I understand why they did that. Not that it was like a pleasant experience for anyone in my family. I think it was all hell for everyone. But like I do understand why they did it. And you know, when I speak to families who have had a child go missing, like as terrible as it is, as uncomfortable as it is, cooperate with law enforcement, like answer whatever question they have, do whatever you have to do to clear yourself so that your focus can stay on your child and finding your child and bringing your child home.

[C]

I can't imagine the frustration that would be, that would feel like even though like you're saying they're doing this in the best interest of the child, like the most statistically common resolution. But I can't imagine being your parents position, especially your dad's, whereas look for my daughter, it's not me. There's been a conversation of re victimization that's come up recently that I've heard. I'm curious if you deem your trial like that whole years long process and everything that went into your case as well as it sounds like, your experience at the Child justice center, would you consider that revictimization?

[A]

I mean, I felt like my experience at the Children's justice center, like that was a bad experience. That was not. I don't look back on that and have anything positive to say about it. I do think things have come so far since then. There's so many more better practices now, and people are just, I'd say, much more trauma informed, trauma aware. I want to say I don't think that would ever happen again. I think we've come that far. It's hard to speak in absolutes, but I believe that that would be the exception and not the norm these days. I do think we've made so much progress in the field of forensic interviewing and how we treat, at least at these specific children's justice centers, children advocacy centers, and how we interact with victims. I think they've come such a long way from when I went through it. I think everyone's gonna have a little bit different answers to what's traumatizing for them. And I guess for me, there's only been a couple times in all the years that I've ever spoken about what's happened to me that I felt truly uncomfortable. And it's never been on a podcast. It's never been on an interview. It's been when. There's been incredibly deep digging. When one of the psychiatrists for the federal case had to get my side of the story, and, I mean, he asked very difficult, hard questions about very intimate details. That. That was hard for me, and I didn't like talking about it, and I didn't want to talk about it. And. And then again, when I was interviewed, interrogated again for the trial by the FBI in preparation for. For the case, it was not good. It was miserable. But also, I recognize that this needs to happen. Like I will. This chapter is going to go on forever unless I do what I have to do to be done with it. And so I did. And I guess at the same time, like, maybe that's just the kind of person I am. Like, let's. No, I don't want to take a break. I just want to get through it, and I want to get it over with. Let's just keep going. Get what you need and be done.

[B]

Hearing you talk about being basically interrogated by a psychiatrist or two psychiatrists for hours on end sounds horrible. I mean, what is changing now to make this system better, to have reform in the system? And then what would you like to see continue to Change that doesn't exist today.

[A]

So in many of these children's justice centers or children's advocacy centers, they have really streamlined the process. So the day I was rescued, it was a little bit of a mess really. It was kind of all over the place. But you know, I was taken from one police station to another police station. I was reunited with my family. I was taken away from my family to be questioned by the police, separate from my family. And then, and then I was taken to the hospital. And then, and then I was finally brought home. And then, you know, it was a day, a day or two later that I was taken to the Children's Justice Center. So I mean, overall I wasn't just interviewed one time. Whereas nowadays things like many of the centers that I've toured, their process is much more streamlined. If a child comes in, unfortunately, I'd say most the time they've been abused by a man. Not always, but much of the time. And so typically talking to a female is going to feel safer than talking to a man. So of course it's not always, but I would say much of the time it is a woman they're coming in to talk to. There's so many different things to take into account. I mean age, maturity level. Do they have any special needs? These forensic interviewers, they're trained in all these different ways. If it's a very young child, they might not have all the words, so it might be more kind of like drawing based. They will have maybe a two way mirror so that the forensic interviewer's in there and they have like an earpiece in and a police officer can stand on the other side and say like these are the things we need to get. And so the forensic interviewer can talk to the victim in like a compassionate way, help them to share whatever they need to share so that law enforcement has what they need to then prosecute or to hold, hold the perpetrator until there's a case or something to move forward with. Much of the time now, I'd say almost most of the time in, again, just in my experience in the centers that I've toured, they will have a sane nurse on hand, so sexual assault nurse examiner, who she'll be in the same building. So it's not like police station, hospital, other location. It's all kind of like one, one place where the nurse can, you know, check for, make sure that they're okay, make sure that they're safe, and then treat anything that needs to be treated and then collect any evidence that might need to be collected. But again, like, in a very trauma informed way, try to. Like, for example, I think it's so helpful when. I mean, just like, even now as an adult, when I go into, like, see the doctor, the doctor's like, okay, I just. This is what I'm gonna do, and I'm gonna tell you when I'm gonna do it. And I want you to tell, like, that very clear communication, I think, makes a big difference. And that's what these nurses do. I mean, and they're just some of the most compassionate and kind and empathetic people you will meet. And then many of these organizations, they also have their therapists right there on site. And many times there can be emergency housing right there on site, or they have their safe houses or, you know, if you don't have clothes, they'll have clothes on hand, they'll have food on hand. So it's almost, I don't want to say one stop shopping. That makes it sound like fun, funny, or trivial. It's not. But I mean, they really have made a big effort to make it as least traumatizing as possible.

[B]

Who was someone that showed compassion to you, that helped you get out of the horrible place you were in as a kid? I mean, yeah, maybe there was like a family member or friend or someone that just like, helped walk you through it and showed up for you.

[A]

I mean, when I was rescued, I kind of like what I was saying earlier. I didn't want to talk about what happened. And I remember while I was held in captivity, I felt like the world was just moving on without me. And I was like, how can, like, how can the rest of my year be starting high school? They're starting high school without me. Like, they're joining sports teams without me. They're. They're doing all of these things without me. They're just moving on with their life. So when I got back, I was like, I never want to miss anything ever again. Like, I want to do everything. So I don't really feel like I was. I was in a very excited place.

[B]

You were excited?

[A]

Well, I was res. I was just rescued. Like, I was just brought back from my family. Like, yeah.

[B]

And you just wanted to, like, put the past in the past and just. Yeah. About it.

[A]

Yeah. I knew it had been taken from me already, and I felt like I was being given back. Like, I didn't want to lose this second chance at life. I felt like I'd been given.

[B]

What was it your mom said to you? There's a powerful quote I Think you said it in a TED Talk, Abby.

[C]

I remember it from 12 years ago when I first listened to your TED Talk. What you said, your mom said, like, very soon after you were rescued.

[A]

Yeah. She. She had just said to me, elizabeth, what these people have done to you is terrible. And there aren't words strong enough to describe how wicked and evil they are. They've stolen nine months of your life, but the best punishment you can give them is to be happy and not let them steal a single second more. I agree with that. But anyone listening to this, I wouldn't want them to think you just push your trauma right under the rug.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I think basically what it means is don't give up on yourself. Like, believe in happiness. You might not feel happy right now, but believe it exists. Believe that you can have it. Like, keep. Keep reaching for it, because you deserve it.

[B]

Did you forgive your captors?

[A]

So I guess my short answer is yes. My long answer is I think I probably have my own definition of forgiveness. What is it? I mean, I don't think forgiveness, like, I feel like when we think of forgiveness, it's easy to kind of think about it, like at recess, like playground forgiveness, where, like, someone pushes you down and you cry and you run into the teacher and the teacher makes that kid say sorry, and then you say okay, and then you go and be friends or, like, between siblings or something. Just like, very simple to me. I don't. I don't think that's forgiveness. I think forgiveness is the greatest gift of self love. It's loving yourself enough to put down the weight of your past. So do I think is okay? No, I'll never be okay with it. Do I think kidnapping is okay? No, I'll never be okay with it. Do I think hurting a child is okay? No, I will never be okay with any of those things. But I also love myself enough that I don't want my history to hold me back. I don't want my past to stop me from living my life the way I want to. And so I feel like I love myself enough that I'm not going to let my captors consume my energy, my time, my. My bandwidth. And so I never want to see them. I never want to see one of my captors out of prison. Yeah, I don't want to ever have anything to do with them, but they also don't take up any more space in my life.

[B]

Wow, that's incredible. I mean, and you of all people have, in my opinion, every right to not forgive. After hell that you went through. I think that's really powerful. And I think there's a lot that I can learn from that, that everyone listening can learn from that. I mean, the horror of your experience. I mean, I still want to get, like, talk more about it. But also the Netflix documentary is so good, and your book is so good, so people can read your book. People can watch the documentary. I did see, though, when I was looking at videos, I think it's so cool that you have a YouTube channel and you're doing advocacy work on YouTube. That's so rad. That's so cool. I did see that one of your captors is out of prison and that she was arrested because she went into a park. And that's a no, no for her because she lost that right. I mean, how do you feel after going through what you went through? How do you feel about her being out of prison?

[A]

It was a disappointment. I mean, I remember when she was least released, I remember the governor, Governor of Utah coming on and saying, oh, she's going to be on a very short leash. And if she puts a toe out of line, like, she's. She knows straight back where she's going. I mean, she's a registered sex offender, so they're not allowed in within a certain distance of schools, of elementary schools, they're not allowed in public parks. And she went to the park and she said God commanded her to feed the ducks.

[B]

And seriously, that's actually what she said.

[A]

That's as far as I understand. Yeah, that's what she said.

[B]

Do you think that she's mentally ill? Do you think it's an act?

[A]

I have mixed feelings. I have mixed thoughts because, like, on one hand, she was before she was married to my other captor. She came from a previous marriage, and she had six kids in her previous marriage. Yeah.

[B]

How could a mother of six kids be okay with that?

[A]

Exactly. Exactly. She not only sat there and watched me be abused, but she encouraged it. I think she wanted to feel special, and I think she wanted to feel important. And I think she found that feeling from my other captor, Brian Mitchell, who would tell her things like, well, you know, you're the mother of Zion, and, you know, you are a queen, and God has a throne on the right hand of him waiting for you, and you've suffered so much. And so I think initially. I think initially she would have just. She would have known 100%. She would have been like, no, absolutely not. Like, this is wrong. But I also think she. It didn't just happen overnight. I Mean, it's like. It's like cases of grooming. When people hear about grooming, they don't actually realize it's a very slow process of little by little by little by little, until one day you're looking at it or someone from the outside looking at is like, this is not okay. This is not normal. How did it ever get to this point? Well, it didn't go from 0 to 100 the same day. I mean, this is days and weeks and months, sometimes even years. And I feel like that's kind of what happened in this case. Case. In her case, you know, it didn't just happen overnight. It was days and weeks and months of year and years of him kind of telling her these things so that she would be like, oh, you're right. You know what? I deserve a handmaiden. I deserve someone to take care of me. Yes. She can be wife number two. And like, she's going to do what I have to say. Was there manipulation on her? Yes. Was she crazy? She allowed herself to be manipulated. It became easier to believe the manipulation than the truth. It's always going to be easier to play the victim than the predator. In hindsight, yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Does she probably have some mental health issues? Yeah, she does. But do I think she's crazy? No.

[C]

I think the fact that your abusers were a male and female, like, duo is unique in a way. And also it baffles me that a woman and a mother specifically could be a part of it. Kind of like we touched on earlier, how do you think that added complexity to your healing process? Because earlier we were talking about how in the child justice centers, like, a young girl is usually being. Has been abused by a man so they would want to talk to a female. How do you think that added any type of nuance to your specific story?

[A]

I think it just made me more wary all around. I don't know that that had, like, a massive effect on me. I mean, growing up, I was always close to my mom, and I always felt safe to my mom when I got home. But I think it just as I met new people, as I came into contact with new people, like, if I got an uncomfortable feeling, then I just ended up paying closer attention to that person or watched a little closer. If I felt like they were crossing boundaries, I just kept my guard up a little bit more.

[C]

A part of your story that stands out to me probably one of the most is the instance that they highlighted in the documentary in which you were in a public library with Brian Mitchell and you had your face covered and you're in a public place and there's so many people around you while you're still kidnapped and a police officer comes up to you guys, can you kind of describe that situation? Because I can't even imagine, like, being this close to freedom and then still having to walk away. Like. Like, what was that feeling, like, that devastation or how. What did it feel like to get so close to that freedom?

[A]

I mean, you're absolutely right. It was devastation. I have been asked so many times over the years, like, oh, why didn't you scream? Why didn't you say something? There are so many reasons why I didn't, and it's not because I didn't want to. And I also just have to say, I feel like. I know my case sounds so extreme and so out of the ordinary, but I think if you look at victims of domestic violence, you see the same thing. Well, you had a car, you had a phone, you had a credit card or you debit card or whatever, right? It is never just as clean cut and as clear as just getting in your car and driving away. Or just for me in that moment, just opening my mouth and saying, yes, I'm Elizabeth Smart. Please, please rescue me. You know, I was a child when I was kidnapped. I'd lived a very sheltered life up until that point. From the time that I was kidnapped to the time that we were in that library, that had already been months of abuse. That had already been months of thinking I was gonna be rescued and not. And he'd had a lot of time to hurt me very, very badly, to follow through with any threat that he felt like following through with. I mean, it got to a point where he really did feel like he was invincible. And prior to my. Well, even up to that moment, I didn't have interaction with law enforcement. Like, I had no reason to. And I didn't know anyone personally who was in law enforcement. I mean, the closest interaction I ever had with law enforcement was the. A police officer who came to teach the DARE program in fifth grade. And, you know, that was still one officer to, what, 25 kids. So it wasn't like there was a personal connection there. And I didn't know this officer. I didn't know if he could actually protect me. I did know my captor. I absolutely knew he could hurt me. And so. And it just felt like. Felt very dangerous to me. The whole situation felt dangerous. The whole situation felt scary, felt intimidating. Wanda Barzee, she was sitting right next to me. She had just clamped her hand down on my leg. So, I mean, I was physically being touched, which was like reminding me of everything that I'd already experienced and what they were capable of doing if I didn't do what they said. So it was. I mean, it was a very stressful situation because, of course I wanted to be rescued, but at the same time, I wanted to stay alive, and I wanted my family to stay alive. And I felt a lot of responsibility, not just for my own survival, but for their survival, because my captors had said, if you don't do what we want, we'll go after your family.

[B]

Well, they even told you that they were going to kidnap your sister and your cousin. And wasn't there something about Brian saying that he wanted seven. Seven people in his camp?

[A]

Yes. Yeah, he wanted seven young wives. I was just the first.

[B]

Did he ever attempt to take more?

[A]

So he made two attempts. One was my cousin, and the other was a girl he actually never saw in person. He just saw a picture of her. It was while we were in California. He was looking for another girl to kidnap. He started going to churches to find that girl. And no, when you go to churches, people are nice. They're friendly to you. They're like, oh, you want to learn more? Like, you know, why don't you come over to dinner tonight? And that's exactly what happened to him. A couple invited him over to dinner, saw a picture of a young girl, and turns out she was the daughter of the wife and her first husband, and she split up her time between two families. That's all he ever saw of her, was just her picture. Then he, like, figured out he. He left. He figured out, like, when she was going to be back with her mom, and that's when he went after her. And he, fortunately, was not successful.

[B]

When you were in that library and the police officer was there, did any part of you think that if you would have tried to run or if you would have said, yes, I. I am Elizabeth Smart? Was any part of you, like, seeing. Seeing how terrible Brian could be? Did. Did you think that he might even go as far to kill the police officer?

[A]

Oh, that was absolutely a possibility in my mind. He'd successfully broken into my home. He'd held me hostage already. For. Or not hostage, captive for months already. Like, he'd bring back missing flyers and newspaper articles about the search effort being put on for me, and he'd laugh about it, and he'd be like, oh, all. Like, all the world's looking for you, but I have you, so no one will ever find you. I mean, I didn't. And he got away with it. Like nobody did find me. Nobody was there to rescue me. Nobody was there to protect me.

[B]

Thank you to Ladder for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Can I be honest? I've never really had the best workout routine. I just go to the gym and end up doing whatever I feel like that day. But now I've discovered Ladder and have a workout plan with an expert coach that can be done from anywhere. Ladder is an expert strength training plan. It's real progressive programming designed by certified coaches. You get a new plan each week that builds on the last. There is an in ear coach that guides you through every set with cues, form reminders and motivation. The app remembers your weights, reps and sets so you can see yourself getting stronger over time. Remove the guesswork with Ladder and get a real coach and your ear telling you exactly what to do. So for every workout, no thinking. Everything planned for you. If you have an iPhone, head to Ladder, Fit unplanned and take a quick quiz to find your perfect Ladder plan. Use our link and get a free 7 day trial with no credit card and $10 off your first month if you join.

[C]

You bring up this concept of appeasement in your book. I feel like that played a role, had to maybe played a role also in your silence, like in the library. In your own words, can you describe this concept of like appeasement when you're in an abusive situation?

[A]

So we have different trauma responses and most people have heard of fight or flight. And then some people have heard of freeze. But there's another one that's called appeasement. And from the outside in, people might look at it and be like, well, that's Stockholm syndrome. Well, no, Stockholm syndrome doesn't really exist. This is appeasement. And it's basically where your life is on the line and you're doing everything you can to stay alive. And so if that means from the outside looking in, it looks like you're loving someone, it looks like you're complicit, it looks like you're, you're part of it. You're just doing what you have to do to survive. For instance, when I was rescued, I remember recognizing that they could kill me at any point they wanted to. And I realized that if I did what they said, if I tried to get them to like me and they did like me, then maybe that would make them pause before they killed me. And if I could get them to like me enough, maybe they'd feel too Bad about killing me. And so that was my thought process. So that meant doing whatever it was they wanted me to do. That meant saying or not saying whatever it was they wanted. It meant just playing along with them so that they wouldn't hurt me or kill me, just to stay alive.

[B]

How did you manipulate them or you did, in a way. Correct.

[A]

I mean, when it came time while we were in California and they were talking about places to go, and I knew my best chance of survival was getting back to Utah. I mean, I feel like I tried to use the same tactics that they used on me, which was basically saying, oh, I feel like God's telling me we need to go back to Utah. But, like, I am. I am not worthy enough for him to speak to me. But, you know, you're his prophet. You're his king. I know he'll tell you, like, could you please ask him? And that's how it was decided we'd go back to Utah.

[B]

It's crazy to me that they used God to justify everything. Was that confusing for you as a kid to hear them, like, throw around God and, you know, just. Just speak in these religious terms? And. Yeah, it took me a while to figure out that their names also weren't Emmanuel and

[A]

Hepal.

[B]

Hebal.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What? Where's Heal from? Where does that.

[A]

They're Bible names.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that Old Testament? Hepal?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Crazy. And they just. And was that all Brian's idea, just to make them holier than thou? To.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To raise them up to this almost godlike standard?

[A]

Yes, that's it exactly.

[B]

What did the documentary not include that you wish it would have included? Because it's only 90 minutes long. It's fairly short.

[A]

It is 90 minutes long. It, you know, it tells my family side. It tells my side. So, I mean, you know, you hear what, 40 minutes of my side, maybe. Yeah, like, really a small part. And. And you're trying to condense, you know, nine months into. Well, for. For my story. Like, you know, 40, 45. I don't know, whatever amount of time. You're trying to condense a lot into just a few minutes. Really. There's nine months of content. You could have made a documentary nine months long. But watching it, for me, watching the final cut, I felt like it showed enough that you could imagine. Gave you enough to imagine what it would have been like. And I feel like it did a really good job on not being too graphic, but you still knew what happened. I feel like it was just very well done. And are there things I Wish it included. I think it depends on the day.

[B]

Oh, yeah. What's one of those things?

[A]

Mostly, I'd say, no, I'm happy with. With what it is, because, again, you know, even when I go out and speak, even sitting here and chatting today, like, there's no way we'll cover everything that happened. There's no way we can go through every day. I mean, I couldn't even tell you August 20th, I remember doing. I couldn't do that. There's just. There's just a lot that happens. But I felt like enough was shown that you could understand what the rest of the nine months was like. And I don't know that there's any way to, like, portray just exactly what they were like. I mean, as wonderful as actors are in this world or as well as I can give a description, I'm just not sure that anything can truly compare to what they were actually, like, an

[C]

element of your captivity that I don't hear spoken about a lot. So maybe this. This isn't exactly relevant, but he forced you to drink beer and get drunk. Was that throughout the entire time? Essentially.

[A]

I mean, it wasn't just beer. It was other kinds of alcohol. Like, it wasn't like, oh, every day. But there were definitely times throughout that he'd, like, make a point to have me drink. Yes.

[C]

As far as your relationship with alcohol takes today, does it? Was that growing up in a religious household, was that also specifically, like, heavy

[A]

for you growing up? Like, you know, my parents didn't drink. I, like, never. Like, that just was not something that was ever going to happen in my life. So, yeah, absolutely. Like, when he'd bring alcohol back, I mean, it just felt like, as bad as I felt about everything already, it just made me be like, well, great. I can't even, like, keep the least of my promises. Like. Like, it just made me feel like. I remember just crying the first time he was having me drink, and I remember begging him to let me not drink. And it, like, it just felt devastating. Even though now looking back, I. I'm not laughing at myself, but also I think I'm looking back with, like, kinder eyes, like, more compassion. Like. Like, if I could go back and tell myself something, I'd be like, elizabeth, this is. You don't. Like, you don't need to worry about this. This is. No one's gonna look at you and be like, you're going to hell because you had a drink of wine while you were kidnapped and it was forced on you. Like, it's okay. Just do whatever you have to do to survive. If drinking this means you're going to survive, then it's the right decision to make. Not that it really was a decision anyway.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Did you count every day you were in captivity?

[A]

Initially, I did. And then it just, it just became too hard to keep counting. It just made my family feel farther away, made me feel more and more lost, and so I did eventually stop counting.

[B]

How many days was it that you decided to just give up?

[A]

Honestly, I can't remember. It was above 50.

[B]

Goodness.

[C]

Your resolve to survive is so evident and it seems like you made that decision very early on. And being 14 also on top of all this is just extremely. It's just awe inspiring. And I remember you saying at one point that you had so determined that you were going to survive through this that you had even made up in your mind that if it meant that you had to outlive your captors, like thinking, you know, that this could be, I mean, it would be decades that you had decided, yes. Still worth it. Yeah, that's, that's. I mean, that honestly takes my breath away. I cannot imagine that.

[A]

But also, like, I don't know, as a 14 year old, does time mean the same as it does as an adult? I mean, I think it was like a little bit different concept. Like, I knew I'd get older. I knew, like, if I had to wait until they died, like, I knew, I knew time would keep passing. I knew I'd be old, older. But also just in my mind, I was like, I'm just gonna do it now. Also, looking back, like, did I really understand what that was? I mean, like, what. What could have happened to me in all that time? Could I really have survived? I don't know.

[C]

Was there ever a concern of pregnancy?

[A]

Of course, yeah. But I'm a very late bloomer. I did not start my period until December and I was rescued in March.

[C]

And you started while you were in captivity?

[A]

Yeah, I started while I was in captivity. Yeah. My period was not. I mean, it's never been normal to this day, but like, back then it was like I was bleeding for three weeks, stopped for a couple of days and just start bleeding again. So it was very abnormal.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Is, do you think part of that is because of the trauma?

[A]

I mean, I couldn't speak from like a scientific background, but there's always kind of been a part of me that's kind of wondered, well, if I hadn't have been, like, if my body hadn't been treated the way it was, would my Period. Have maybe even started even later.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Did your dad just want to, like, kill this guy? Like, how did your dad not keep himself from, like, breaking into the prison and just, like, stabbing this dude? I don't know. Like, I just. As a father, I can't imagine the horror of having this happen.

[A]

I mean, he never. He never talked to me about it, but I guess as I'm a parent now, I wouldn't. I would want my children. If something happened to my children, I would want them to feel like all of my focus was on them and that I was doing everything I could to make them feel safe and make sure that they felt taken care of and make sure that, like, I was there and in a good mind frame.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To be the best parent I could be for them. I'm sure my dad had thoughts, I'm sure my dad had feelings, but I never saw that side of him.

[C]

How do you tell your story to your children?

[A]

I mean, it's. I'd say it just grew with them. My oldest could tell you the most and my youngest could tell you the least, but they could all tell you that I was kidnapped and I was hurt and then I was rescued.

[B]

And how do you teach your kids about consent? About. About. Yeah, how do you teach your kids about those topics? How do you talk to them in age appropriate ways?

[A]

I mean, again, it does start out very simplistic. Like, this is your body and nobody has the right to touch your body. You own this body. This is your body. And so if you don't want to give a hug to someone, you don't have to give a hug to someone. If you don't want to give a kiss to someone, you don't have to give a kiss to someone. Nobody has the right to touch you in a way that you don't want them to be touched. No one should see you naked unless, you know, it's me or my husband and we're helping you with something or we're at the doctor and I'm there with you. So we, we start off very small like that. As. Like, as all my kids are in elementary school school now, I've told them, you know, if anyone ever tries to touch you, if anyone ever tries to hurt you, you can do whatever you want to them. You want to punch them in the face, you go punch them in the face. You want to kick them in the crotch like, Go kick them in the crotch like. And if you get in trouble with for it, and like, the principal calls me down I'm going to tell her you did exactly what I told you to do because you are too special to be hurt, and nobody has the right to make you feel unsafe or hurt you. And so we have those conversations regularly. My kids have kind of gotten to the point where they're like, mom, can I have a sleepover? Mom can. No, there are no sleepovers. I'm sorry. Like, I'm happy for you to go. It's not play dates anymore. It's hang out, hang out. I'm happy for you to go hang out. But I will be picking you up and if you want to hang out again tomorrow, we can plan that. But you're not spending the night.

[C]

Thank you to Cash App for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. We love a good discount. Why pay full price when you just don't have to? And also, why spend money and not get money back if you can spend money and get money back?

[B]

Yeah, especially if it's somewhere that you're already spending money anyway. Come on, bring on the extra rewards. Might as well.

[C]

And CashApp just released a new status program for the way people actually spend called Cash Cash App Green. It unlocks new ways for you to pay, get rewarded, and easily grow or manage your money on your terms.

[B]

Now, when you spend at least $500 a month with the Cash App card or Cash App Pay, you earn green status, which unlocks benefits like $200 of free overdraft coverage, higher borrow limits, and custom personalized cash back offers every Friday at places you love to shop.

[C]

Turn everyday spending into status with Cash App Green. Download Cash App today or visit Cash App New to learn this and other great features.

[B]

Launching now for a limited time, new Cash App Customers can earn $10 if they use the code CASH APP10 in their profile at signup and send $5 to a friend within 14 days. Terms apply. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App Banks Partners Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton bank member FDIC Cash App Green overdraft coverage Borrow Cashback offers and promotions provided by Cash App, a Block Inc. Brand. Visit Cash App Slash Legal podcast for full disclosures. What do you I appreciate you explained the whole permission thing, whether it's a hug or literally anything, because I'm a hugger and I literally thought back. I was like, oh gosh, yeah.

[C]

I was like, crap, I hugged you.

[B]

I literally hug everyone. And then I was like, I I when we met like an hour ago, I gave you a hug and I'm like, Gosh dang. It was. I should have said. It just said permission to hug. Like, I. Like, what? Yeah, talk to me about that.

[A]

I mean, I think it's, like, perfect. Like, I have met so many people and, like, so many people do feel like they've followed my story so closely and they want to give me a hug and. And that's okay. That's, like, for me, that's fine. I think it is nice, though. Just be like, hey, do you mind if I give you a hug and then just give them the chance to say yes or no? I think that's great. And I think, you know, like, I think it is nice to be hugged. Like, I hope most people like hugs. Like, I like hugs, but, you know, like, some people don't feel comfortable with it. So I think it is good. Just be like, hey, I'm a huggy type of person. Do you mind if I give you a hug?

[B]

Totally. That's. Thank you for explaining that. That's really good. Now that you're an adult, now that you're a mom, you're married, you have three. Three children.

[A]

Yeah, three.

[B]

I'm guessing it's still probably hard sometimes to be just. Just around men because, like, that men are. Men are scary. Like, it was a scary. Am I wrong in saying that?

[A]

I don't think. Just blanket statement. Men are scary. I don't. I don't think that. I think anyone can be scary. And I think it comes down to just, like, listening to your senses, listening to your gut. Like, and I think that's very important because many of us live so hard trying not to offend anyone, strangers, people we don't even know, to the point that we don't listen to our instincts anymore. I mean, for example, like, I. I wish I could say I came up with this. I didn't. But I think it's brilliant. You would never see just like a gazelle willingly walk into an elevator, a closed steel box with a lion in it. But as people, whether you're in a hotel, a mall, an airport, like, the elevator door opens and you can see someone kind of scary looking in there, but you don't. You still get in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you'll still just walk in and just be like, you know what? It's not right of me to judge that other person. They could be the nicest person in the world. So I'm just. I'm just gonna ignore my senses, I'm gonna ignore my instincts, and I'm gonna get in there and I just think it's really Important just to state, like, as much as I want to say, yeah, don't judge the person next to you. You don't know what they've been through. You don't know why they are the way they are. Also, you should not. Your personal safety should take precedence over your fear of offending someone else.

[C]

Crime junkie says, be weird, be rude, stay alive.

[B]

Do you listen to crime, Jackie?

[A]

I was interviewed by this.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's Abby loves true crime.

[C]

I heard that also when it was released. That was years ago.

[A]

It was. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. I really appreciate your vulnerability and honesty. On your YouTube page, you had a conversation. You said many people had asked you after being rescued, well, since getting married, about, you know, intimacy in a marriage after being a victim of sexual violence and how people were curious about that and how that took you aback at first. But then you just honestly talked about how you navigated intimacy in a safe context after such a violent and unsafe circumstance. And I think that a lot of listeners can probably relate to that to some extent after, like, having being victims themselves. Can you talk a bit about how you navigate healthy intimacy after being a victim of or sexual violence?

[A]

Well, I mean, right from the very beginning, I could have said no to my husband at any point in time, I could have said no. When he first asked me out on a date, I could have said no. When he first tried to kiss me, I could have said no. When he asked me to marry him, I could have said no at any point in that road. Like, I never was scared of him. I never felt threatened by him. I always felt like he respected. Respected me. I always felt like he loved me for me. And so every step along the way, it was yes. And, like, even to this day, I've never felt in danger from him. I've never felt that I needed to worry about being vulnerable with him. Like, I just. Like, I. I've said it before, but, like, from, like, the first time I walked off the plane in Scotland and he was waiting for me there, even though Scotland's a completely foreign country to me and is not my home. Just, like, walking straight into his arms felt like home to me. And that's just. That's just how it's always been. And it's always been like, consent. It's always been like, if we have sex, it's because we both want to. It's not because one of us is forced in the other. It's because we both want to. And I think really having the ability to say yes, the ability to say no, has Made all the difference for me. It's helped me recognize that, you know what, like, true intimacy is not the same thing as they are different things.

[C]

That's good.

[B]

Your YouTube video about this very topic. You talked about using, like, your senses, and it was just really interesting, like, as a grounding technique. How, like, where did you learn that? How to ground like that?

[A]

I mean, honestly, like, again, I did not come up with that. That was from listening to therapists speak at conferences. That was listening to other people talk about their relationships. That was me learning from other people. People and then sharing the information that I've learned and honestly experimenting with.

[B]

Isn't there, like, a certain technique, though, where you, like, think of three things or you name three things in the room? What. What is the exercise?

[A]

There is, but I couldn't tell you exactly what it is. I know it's been explained to me probably like 10 times. However, my retention.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Is not always the best. But I know there are different, like, methods to help you, like, disconnect from your past and reconnect to the present.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I feel like if you are struggling, like, you should go to a counselor or, like, specifically a sex therapist, and they can help you find the best technique for yourself.

[B]

Is that something that you had to do or that you experienced is, like, going to someone like that?

[A]

I did not. I think if I had been kidnapped and abused, like, and I was older and I was in my 20s, and I was already sexually active, and I came home and, like, immediately jumped into other relationships, I think that I would have needed that. I think that would have been very helpful. But when I came back, I mean, that wasn't like, I didn't come back to a boyfriend. I didn't come back to a relationship. I didn't come back to have sex. Like, that was still years away.

[B]

And correct me if I'm wrong, but you didn't go to therapy right away after everything. Right. Like, therapy took years or like, maybe even a decade. Right. How long did it take you to go from being rescued to then actually making it into therapy?

[A]

When I went to therapy, it wasn't about my kidnapping. It was about my parents divorce. You know, I've, like, told my story. I've told my story in private to specific people, but I never went through the process of therapy for what happened.

[C]

That.

[B]

That's fascinating to me.

[A]

I do. But for the record, like, I think therapy is great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I believe in therapy. Like, if you feel it's right for you, like, keep trying it till you find the right Modality, keep trying until you find the right therapist. If you don't feel like it's right for you, there's nothing wrong with. With not going to it. Like, you find what works for you.

[B]

And when you went to therapy to talk to a therapist about your parents divorce and how that affected you, did you talk about the horror of being kidnapped or. No. Was that even. Not even on the table just because you'd already worked through it?

[A]

I maybe mentioned it, but it was more. It was. It wasn't about. It wasn't about that. It was just more like to give context or reference from what I thought to what was happening.

[B]

And if this is too much of, like, too deep of question, that's totally okay. We don't have to answer this, but was your parents divorce more traumatic for you than the kidnapping?

[A]

It was just different. It was just something that I. I mean, obviously I never dreamed I could be kidnapped, but my parents being together, that was like the foundation that I had built my life on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like something I had taken for granted, that they had never split up, that they would always be together. And all of a sudden it just felt like it broke our family apart. And so trying to figure out. Still figure out ways forward, you know, because life is always changing. It's. It's hard. It's just different.

[B]

How old were you when that happened and you ended up going to therapy?

[A]

Oh, my parents divorced. My youngest was like a month old and so I guess seven years ago. Wow.

[C]

And being postpartum, that would be a lot. One month out from your first. Yeah, That's a crazy time of life to have something so unmooring as like your parents had been married your whole life or something like that to happen. I can imagine. I feel like we hear a lot about, like, you're so great about sharing your story when you're 14 and 15 and that we see you now and for years now being such a profound advocate and so great at sharing your story. I think there's a part in the middle that I'm curious about. As far as, like you said you were so eager to get back to do all the things that you had missed out on. Like, I'm curious, like, how did you navigate peer relationships and maybe curious questions from your peers that are just trying. They don't necessarily know how to ask. Adults don't know how to ask appropriate questions at times to victims. Like, how did you navigate those maybe inappropriate questions from other teenagers?

[A]

I don't know for sure, but I think probably parents and. Or teachers probably said, don't ask her any questions about what happened. Because most students didn't. I mean, every now and then someone would. And typically that was after they'd gotten to know me a little bit better. But most. Most didn't. Most.

[C]

Did you like that that they didn't ask?

[A]

I mean, on one hand, yeah. Yeah, I did like it because I. I didn't just want to be known as the girl that was kidnapped.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On the other hand, I think that sometimes maybe it kept people at arm's length a little bit more than maybe they would have been otherwise.

[C]

There's something to avoid here.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Did you find it hard to like, did you just go right back to school?

[A]

I mean, I would have gone back the next day, but my parents were like, no. So I did like, school packets to like, do the classes that were mandatory. And then I started school. School in the fall.

[C]

Okay. Coming back, like, after having not spoken to your parents in nine months, you had nine months worth of stories. How did your parents go about asking you questions about what? Like, how did they navigate getting filled in on this major gap they now had in your life?

[A]

They didn't. We didn't. I mean, I was. As we kind of chatted about before I was interviewed by the two psychiatrists. And then I know they went and talked to my parents. I don't know how detailed they told them what they told them, but I know that they. He told them enough. But we didn't, like, I didn't want to talk about it. And so my parents were just like, we're here. If you ever want to talk about it, like, we're here for you. If you don't want to talk about it, that's okay too.

[C]

Do you think that's the best approach?

[A]

I mean, that was for me.

[C]

Yeah. Your foundation is doing all kinds of really awesome work and things. From having a platform for victims to share their stories. Self defense classes, which I find, like, particularly really like, what a great resource.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

What's the best way people can support the work that you're doing?

[A]

I'd say, of course. Follow us on social media. Check out our website. Website. We have our yearly fundraiser coming up in May.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

I guess, I don't know when this is going to air. Soon.

[B]

Pretty soon.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Perfect timing.

[B]

Donate to the fundraiser.

[A]

Yeah. So our fundraiser is May 13. It's a garden party. My team is amazing. They're gonna do like a great job. They always, always feel like. So I guess humbled by them because they do so much and they're just amazing women. I feel so lucky to have them be on my team and working as hard as they do. Like, it's such a important cause. So definitely come check out our fundraiser again. That's May 13th. Just follow us on our social medias. I feel like. Instagram, Instagram, Instagram. I'd focus mainly on Instagram.

[B]

Okay, okay.

[A]

We are on Facebook as well and then we have our website. But I'd also encourage you just to like, get educated independently and like, hopefully you know your child better than anyone else so you will know the best way to talk to them, what they're ready for, because everyone has a different maturity level and you know how much your child can handle. But don't let these conversations just happen once and never revisit them. Make them a regular part of, of, of your life. I think communication is probably one of the most important things you can have as a parent, as someone trying to change, someone trying to teach. Make sure that your child feels like they can always tell you that they're not going to be scared to tell you. And I guess the number one thing that I think that is the absolute most important thing any parent can teach their child is to let them know that they are loved unconditionally, traditionally.

[C]

That's great.

[B]

Beautiful.

[C]

Perfect. Note to end on. And also check out your book too. I feel like it, it can reach anyone, survivors of any kind and anyone that just is looking, going through a hard time, finding resilience. And so much of your story has impacted me for years. So it's very cool to have this conversation with you and I'm really glad that we also got to share it with all the listeners here.

[B]

I just feel so inspired. I mean, I think everyone at some point goes through hard things in their life and to hear your story and through the horror and trauma that you've been through and to see you come out on the other side as a victor and stronger and all this post traumatic growth, which is just incredible. I think it's just, it's an inspiration for everybody. So thank you so much for doing what you do.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Toogood and Co coffee creamers are made with farm fresh cream, real milk and contain 3 grams of sugar per serving. That's 40% less than the 5 grams per serving in leading traditional coffee creamers.

[C]

For a rich, delicious.

[A]

Whether you enjoy your coffee hot, cold, bold or frothy, two good coffee creamers make every sip a good one. Two good coffee creamers. Real goodness in every sip. Find them at your local Kroger in the creamer aisle. New Year, New Me. Cute, but how about New Year, New Money? With Experian, you can actually take control of your finances. Check your FICO score, find ways to save and get matched with credit card offers, giving you time to power through those New Year's goals you know you're going to crush. Start the year off right. Download the Experian app based on FICO scoring model. Offers an approval not guaranteed.

[B]

Eligibility requirements and terms apply subject to

[A]

credit check, which may impact your credit scores.

[B]

Offers not available in all states.

[A]

See experian.com for details.