Escaping a cult, going blind, & retiring my guide dog w/ Matthew and Paul

Summary

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The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby

Episode: Going blind, losing our surrogate, & retiring my service dog
Date: June 3, 2026
Guests: Matthew and Paul (Matthew and Paul on social media); Service dog: Mr. Maple

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Episode Overview

This heartfelt and deeply personal episode features Matthew and Paul, a couple who went viral as an interabled, gay partnership on TikTok. The conversation journeys through living with blindness (Retinitis Pigmentosa), navigating past religious cult trauma, facing the grief of losing a surrogate and brother, the bittersweet process of retiring a beloved guide dog, and building an inclusive creative business self-publishing children’s books. Matt and Abby, the hosts, create an open space for candid conversations about love, loss, disability, and meaningful representation.

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Table of Contents

• The Journey and Challenges of Blindness
• Meeting, Relationship, and Facing Prejudice
• Growing Up in a Cult: Matthew's Story
• Coming Out and Support Systems
• Navigating Fatherhood, Surrogacy Loss, and Grief
• Creative Coping and Children's Literature
• Retiring Mr. Maple: Service Dog Life & Training
• Representation, Internet Trolls, and Advocacy
• Memorable Quotes & Moments
• Resource and Contact Links

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Journey and Challenges of Blindness

[01:32 – 08:31, 10:18 – 13:04, 36:29 – 39:29]

• Paul's Diagnosis: Diagnosed with Retinitis Pigmentosa at 16; symptoms started with loss of night vision and clumsiness.
  • “When there's a blind character, they always have some superpower ... but really, blindness exists on a spectrum.” — Paul Castle [37:50]
• Genetics: Paul's is a de novo mutation—he did not inherit it but could pass it along to future children.
• Blindness Spectrum: Most “blind” people have functional vision—93% see something, only 7% are "totals" with no vision at all.
  • “93% of the blind community can see something … blindness is a spectrum.” — Paul Castle [37:50]
• Public Perception: Many online trolls are “blind deniers” who accuse Paul of faking his disability, failing to realize how disability can manifest differently.
  • “We call them the blind deniers.” — Paul Castle [36:31]
• Dealing With Trolls: Paul chooses to respond with gentleness and education, fostering a community that now steps in to explain for him.

Meeting, Relationship, and Facing Prejudice

[13:06 – 19:04]

• How They Met: Matthew reached out after seeing Paul’s artwork on Instagram and seeing a video of him playing violin with Andrea Bocelli.
• First Date: A violin and painting lesson exchange led to immediate romantic chemistry.
• Navigating Ableism: Matthew briefly faced doubts after a friend warned he'd become Paul's “caretaker.” His father gave perspective: “You could marry an able-bodied person, and they could get hit by a bus. Does that mean you'd leave them?” [17:55]
• Pro Tip: “If you ever feel you met your spouse on a first date—don’t tell them that right away.” — Paul Castle [16:52]

Growing Up in a Cult: Matthew's Story

[19:07 – 33:19]

• Background: Raised in the IBLP (Institute in Basic Life Principles) under Bill Gothard; homeschooled, sheltered from mainstream media, and involved in cult-run music camps.
• Realizing It Was a Cult: By his mid-teens, Matthew realized his experience was abnormal and suffocating.
• Escape & Family: Eventually ran away after his private journal (hidden under a dresser) was found; estranged from parents for years, then reconnected with his father as an adult.

Coming Out and Support Systems

[25:35 – 32:38]

• Both Paul and Matthew grew up in environments where being gay was forbidden.
• Paul's Journey: Raised by an aunt in a born-again church, moved to San Francisco at 18 to pursue acceptance and march in his first pride parade.
• Matthew’s Struggle: Internalized shame from cult teachings, journaled about the need to eventually leave, and finally came out after years of independence.

Navigating Fatherhood, Surrogacy Loss, and Grief

[44:38 – 47:58, 50:33 – 54:40]

• Desire for Parenthood: Planned to have a child via Matthew’s genetics and Paul’s cousin as an egg donor, with a family member as a surrogate.
  • “We had the fertility clinic picked out … and it all fell apart at the same time.” — Paul Castle [46:09]
• Grieving Lost Paths: They candidly discuss the devastation of losing their surrogate opportunity and the necessity of pausing and reevaluating their family dreams.
  • “The future we thought we were building might not be the one. And would we be okay if that isn’t the way it went?” — Paul Castle [47:52]
• Coping with Loss: Both rely on therapy. Paul channels emotions into art; Matthew finds music can be an indirect emotional process.

On Grieving Other Losses

• Paul's Brother: Lost his sibling to an overdose, inspiring a forthcoming children’s book about grief.
  • “Like a school of fish missing one ... the space never disappears, but we move forward.” — Paul Castle [52:38]
• Family Impact: Paul recounts how the loss shattered his divorced parents—"It nearly killed my mom. All I could think was, my parents can't lose me, too." [54:15]

Creative Coping and Children’s Literature

[34:51 – 39:42, 50:33 – 54:40, 89:07 – 98:46]

• Books as Healing & Representation: Paul’s books (Pringle & Finn, et al.) are inspired by personal life, relationship, and loss, and are designed to be radically inclusive (same-sex couples, adoption, multidiverse families).
  • “I want to write a book that feels meaningful … as a kid who grew up with a disability and knowing I was gay, I felt it was important to create books that felt inclusive.” — Paul Castle [93:11]
• Teamwork in Creation: Matthew is the “doer/back-end,” Paul the “dreamer/creative.” They self-publish, which presents logistical challenges (restocking, distribution, forecasting).

Retiring Mr. Maple: Service Dog Life & Training

[02:36 – 08:31, 62:48 – 88:16]

• Service Dogs in Public: Maple, Paul’s guide dog, is winding down to retirement at age seven due to waning enthusiasm (retirement is typically at 8–9 years).
  • “He prefers to sleep in the sun. ... The young dog will take over, but Maple will always be with us.” — Matthew [62:53]
• Training Process: Dogs are bred, raised by volunteers, then undergo 3–6 months of intensive professional training (only about 30% complete the program).
• Cost and Access: Guide Dogs for the Blind provides service dogs free (except for food); each dog is valued at $60–100k and fully supported by donations and the organization for their lifetime.
• Matching & Training: The person is matched based on lifestyle and needs, then spends two weeks on campus bonding and learning from scratch.
• Intelligent Disobedience: Critical skill—dogs must refuse dangerous commands, e.g., stopping Paul from stepping into traffic.
  • “Maple saved me twice from cars I couldn’t hear, pushing me back onto the curb.” — Paul Castle [82:24]

Misconceptions Cleared Up:

• Guide dogs are not GPS units. Paul must know where he’s going, and the dog assists, not leads blindly.

Representation, Internet Trolls, and Advocacy

[34:51 – 39:42, 64:24 – 69:14]

• Internet Trolls: Originally trolled for being a gay couple, later targeted as “blind deniers.” They encourage gentle education and have cultivated a community where followers now help answer questions.
• Media Representation: Paul is critical of the “blind superhuman” trope (like Daredevil), preferring more nuance and realism in stories (praises “In the Dark” but notes the actor isn’t blind).
  • “I’m not going to boycott the show. … I think what’s important is the role educates the audience, but I hope casting gives disabled actors a fair shot.” — Paul Castle [67:03]
• Advocacy: Matthew and Paul often do fundraising for Guide Dogs for the Blind and promote disability and LGBTQ+ visibility.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Falling in love with someone with a disability—what if... —You could marry anyone and they become disabled. Does that mean you'd leave them?"
  — Matthew, sharing his father’s advice [17:55]
• "If you see a guide dog in harness, never ever ask to pet it."
  — Paul Castle [07:40]
• "Grief is like a school of fish, missing one. The space never disappears, but we move forward together."
  — Paul Castle [52:38]
• "If you’re a dreamer, find your doer. If you’re a doer, find your dreamer."
  — Paul Castle on partnership [98:46]
• "I have this rule: no clapbacks. If it makes your heart rate go up, just delete the comment."
  — Paul Castle [39:42]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:32] – Introduction to guests and Maple’s travel life
• [08:32] – Paul’s blindness, symptoms, and diagnosis story
• [13:06] – How Matthew and Paul met, Instagram DMs, and early connection
• [17:21] – Navigating ableism in relationships and sound family advice
• [19:07] – Matthew’s cult upbringing, IBLP explanation, homeschool, and breaking away
• [25:35] – Hiding his identity, gay awakening, running away, and coming out
• [36:29] – Internet trolls, “blind deniers,” and disability misconceptions
• [44:38] – Surrogacy journey, losing the surrogate, and pausing on parenthood
• [50:33] – Grieving loss of a sibling and how art helps process grief
• [62:48] – Retiring guide dog Maple and the process of getting a new service animal
• [74:53] – Guide dog application/training explained
• [78:00] – Guide dog costs and how nonprofits support access
• [82:19] – Stories of Maple saving Paul’s life—intelligent disobedience explained
• [89:07] – Paul’s children’s books: creative journey, inspiration, and representation
• [98:01] – Running a self-publishing business and challenges therein

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Resource and Contact Links

• Matthew & Paul Online: @matthewandpaul on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, Snapchat
• Paul’s Books & Art: paulcastlestudio.com
• Guide Dogs for the Blind: guidedogs.com
• Their books also at: walmart.com, amazon.com, and soon Target.com

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in stories of resilience, unconventional family-building, the day-to-day realities of living with disability, self-advocacy, and inclusive creativity. The chemistry and warmth between the couples, as well as the unflinching honesty about life’s curveballs, make it both inspiring and relatable—touching on laughter, vulnerability, and hope for more understanding in the world.

Transcript

[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Paul Castle]

Oh yeah.

[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Paul Castle]

A friend of his said, you're throwing your life away. This guy's going to lose all his vision. You're going to be his caretaker. Is that what you really want?

[Matthew]

You could marry a fully able bodied person and then they get hit by a bus and then they're in a wheelchair. Does that mean you'd leave them?

[Host 1]

Matthew and Paul are an interabled couple that went mega viral on TikTok. After Matthew started breaking his blind husband

[Paul Castle]

Paul growing up gay and there's just a lot of people that don't understand and it's not something that we take personally. We shifted to really focusing on talking about my journey with sight loss. That is when this whole new crop of trolls emerged. Really. We call them the blind deniers.

[Host 1]

At 16, Paul was diagnosed with a degenerative eye disease that will eventually leave him completely blind. But that hasn't stopped him from pursuing his dream of becoming a children's author, illustrating six books in the last two years.

[Paul Castle]

When there's a blind character, they always have some superpower, and they have, like, kung fu ninja skills, and they're so cool.

[Host 2]

I say you run with that.

[Host 1]

We talk with them about escaping a cult, their journey to fatherhood, and retiring their beloved guide dog, Maple, all on today's episode. Please welcome Matthew and Paul and Mr. Maple.

[Host 2]

Mr. Maple. Mr.

[Matthew]

Maple doesn't even lift his head.

[Paul Castle]

He didn't even lift his head so good. He's so over it already.

[Host 2]

Oh, it's a big travel day for him.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, but he loves to travel.

[Host 2]

He does.

[Host 1]

Really?

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

It gives him a purpose.

[Paul Castle]

True. It does.

[Host 2]

Mission.

[Matthew]

He loves, like, new places.

[Paul Castle]

He loves new places to nap.

[Host 1]

All the way from Seattle. How. How do you. When. When Maple's traveling, how do you, you know, take Maple to the bathroom at the airport? Is there.

[Paul Castle]

Like, he refuses?

[Host 1]

Oh, he refuses.

[Paul Castle]

No.

[Matthew]

Pet areas.

[Paul Castle]

Oh, the pet areas that. Those. They smell awful.

[Matthew]

No.

[Paul Castle]

And he's like, I'm too good for this. Do you know who I am? He's like, have you seen my Instagram account? And. No, but we. There is.

[Matthew]

We have to go outside the airport.

[Paul Castle]

You have to do it outside the airport. They are trained to just go on pavement. Really? They. They prefer it over grass.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host 1]

But. Okay, so. But, like, the airport bathroom area for dogs, is that. What is that exact. Like, describe that area for somebody that's never been there before. I've never been to that area.

[Matthew]

Some of them have, like, a Astroturf and a fake fire hydrant. Some of them are just a hard floor.

[Paul Castle]

Right. With a drain in the middle. But there's usually. And they. They pump it. Like, they pour perfume over it. So it's like you have this really potent, awful perfume smell, but you can smell all the urine and other stuff underneath, and it's often right next to a bath somewhere in a terminal. It makes sense. But, I mean, it smells awful.

[Matthew]

It's pretty bad.

[Paul Castle]

But it's, like, around a corner. Sometimes it's in a room.

[Host 2]

So. We travel a lot with our kids, and there's often service dogs of all kinds that we see. And when we were traveling recently, we met a service dog, and I. I was gonna ask you this, too. We always tell our kids this might be wrong. Like, we're. They're just drawn to any dog, and they're like, can I go say hi? We always say, like, you have to. If they're. You have to ask the owner. But usually if I see like a vest of some sort, we're like, that dog's working, so he can't. Like, how do you. Yeah. What do you do about kids that just come up and are attracted to your. To Mr. Maple?

[Paul Castle]

Well, I want to say, first of all, Griffin did a very good job.

[Host 2]

Did he?

[Paul Castle]

He was in here before. He stood back, he waited. We offered to take the harness off, and then he understood the assignment. And I would actually. I would say that kids are often more aware and educated. I've often heard kids telling their parents, we can't touch that dog because it's working. But the reverse is true, too. I hear a lot of parents educating their kids and using it as an educational opportunity. So the only times people have literally breached that and just gone and started petting my dog, it's been full grown adults.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Host 1]

Is it usually elderly people that.

[Paul Castle]

No, no, no. Well, I am blind, so they could be all ages.

[Matthew]

All ages.

[Paul Castle]

All ages. Okay.

[Matthew]

Yeah. They just can't help themselves. They reach.

[Paul Castle]

They don't sound elderly.

[Host 1]

Can you tell us a story about a time that somebody went ahead and started petting Maple without your permission?

[Paul Castle]

Well, I was walking through downtown Seattle, where we live, and I was walking home from my barber, and it just happened very suddenly because they were walking toward me. I couldn't really see them, but I. I heard them approaching, and I heard their reaction, their excitement, you know? And the next thing I know, they. I can hear the. The hands on Maple and petting him. And of course, Maple doesn't know that. He's not. I mean, he. He doesn't know the rules. Like, he seems to know the rules. He does and he doesn't. It's not like he. He's. He knows he needs to be focused. But if somebody breaks the rules like they do at tsa, when they give him a pat down with his harness on, he's like, okay, I guess this is okay. And so he's. He's. He's loving it. I can feel the tail wagging. And I'm like, oh, oh, no, no, no, no, no. He's working. You can't pet him. And she shot back and she goes, rude. And then walked off.

[Host 1]

What did you say to that person?

[Matthew]

I didn't say anything.

[Paul Castle]

I'm just like, maple, let's keep going. I don't think this is save. I don't think this is safe. But I Actually created a little webcomic about it. I have a web comic called the Blind Robot. And in it, the blind robot has a guide bot named Mr. Motor. And I wanted to create like a four panel visual, like, representation of, like, what that situation would be like. So I have the exact scenario in which somebody is asking to pet the guidebot and he says, sorry, he's working. The person says, rude. And he's a pilot. It was this robot pilot. And then the next scene is he's now landing a plane. And my character, the blind robot, says, can I give you a hug? And he says, sorry, I'm landing a plane right now. He says, rude. It's sort of like. Like petting a working dog is like asking a pilot for a hug while they're trying to land a plane.

[Host 2]

Yeah. So better not to approach a working dog.

[Matthew]

Yeah, yeah.

[Paul Castle]

Ye.

[Matthew]

I mean, if you see them stopped, if the dog's laying down that, then. Then I like it. If someone comes up and says, could I, you know, could I say, hi, could I pet your dog? Paul's super happy to. When the harness is on or off, take the harness off.

[Paul Castle]

I mean, I actually isn't. Listen, I don't mind it. And I love introducing Maple to people because it's such a treat for him.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

He loves meeting people. So, like, it's a nice break for him. Right. But I, as people with a platform that we get to talk about these things. I reiterate, if you do see a working guide dog and they have a vest on, never, ever, ever ask to pet it because you're putting the blind person or the disabled person in a situation where they have to make a decision, and maybe they're. Maybe they're having a stressful day and maybe that's not convenient for them and even asking them becomes a distraction. They maybe even tried to do an important task in that moment. And while it's true, I don't mind it. We don't mind it. But I feel like Matthew's. When I move Matthews around, I feel a lot safer for situations like that. But I would encourage your viewers just not to ask.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah. Unless they're out of their harness and you're like, okay, maybe. Maybe it's appropriate.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And for anybody that's new here, how would you describe your. Your type of blindness? I. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm going to try the pronunciation of it. It's retinitis pigmentosa.

[Paul Castle]

Yep, you nailed it.

[Host 1]

Let's go. Okay. What exactly is retinitis pigmentosa? For somebody that doesn't understand.

[Paul Castle]

You know what, I'm gonna actually let Matthew tell you because when Matthew and I first started chatting online, when he found my Instagram account 10 years ago, he just admitted this to me. Recently, he found out about my eye disease because I was posting about it and he started chatting with me and I was like, gosh, this guy, he knows so much about it. Well, it turns out he had a Google browser open at the same time and he knew how to ask all the right questions.

[Matthew]

Yeah, so. Yeah. So Paul has retinitis pigmentosa. It's a degenerative inherited eye disease. Usually inherited. He's getting this really well, but Paul is de novo, which means he created the mutation himself.

[Paul Castle]

So it was the first in my line. It was not passed on.

[Matthew]

There's what, 800 variants? 200 variants? No, no, no.

[Paul Castle]

Right now, yeah, about 200.

[Matthew]

200 variants.

[Host 2]

Wait, what was that word you used? De novo.

[Paul Castle]

De novo?

[Matthew]

De novo means that you are the. I think it just means originator of a mutation.

[Paul Castle]

Y like the first to have.

[Host 1]

So I've never heard that word before.

[Paul Castle]

But since it is genetic, I can pass it on. But it wasn't passed on to me. Cuz every mutation has to start somewhere.

[Host 2]

Okay, that's true.

[Paul Castle]

And I'm the first to do it.

[Host 2]

Your parents had like been tested?

[Paul Castle]

They'd been tested.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

And they didn't have it?

[Host 1]

No.

[Paul Castle]

And then I. That's when I found out I was adopted. No, I'm just kidding. I did wonder, but I'm like, no, I look way too much.

[Host 2]

I feel like every kid grows up

[Paul Castle]

wondering that, hoping at some point you're like, maybe, maybe I have a secret rich family out there.

[Host 2]

But you were diagnosed just a little older.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

16.

[Paul Castle]

I was 16.

[Host 2]

Wow.

[Paul Castle]

And the symptoms started much earlier and the first symptom is typically the loss of low light vision. So I like on a camping trip, I couldn't see the stars in the sky and I didn't understand why. And I have an older brother who was like, there's the big Dipper. And I was like, I don't see it. Like I'm just looking up and it's inky black, dark sky.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

And my parents thought I didn't understand what a constellation was. So they're like, no, no, no, no. You have to connect the dots. And they were getting frustrated with me and they thought I was probably like, you know, a little slow.

[Host 2]

Sometimes I can't find the perfect.

[Paul Castle]

And I was feeling a little slow. I was feeling Slow. Because I'm like, why are they. What can they see that I can't? And because I'm a little brother and I had a big brother and I was like, well, he can see it. So I'm going to pretend I can see it because enough of this. He's having too much fun. So I faked being able to see things like that for years out of shame, embarrassment, and not wanting to feel different.

[Host 1]

Okay?

[Paul Castle]

And. But as that progressed into being really clumsy in, like, low lit restaurants or getting into accidents when it was dusk. So I was just labeled as accident prone. They didn't think anything was wrong with my eyes because, by the way, I was already wearing glasses. I. The disease I have affects the retina of the eye. It's the back of the eye. And we're tested in school for like, is your acuity good? That's a different part of the eye. That's the lens of your eye. So they don't test for retinitis pigmentosa is what I'm saying. It's kind of a rare thing. And so they thought, well, we have glasses for Paul. And I'm thinking, this is supposed to correct my vision, so it's not a vision problem. What's going on? I guess I'm just clumsy. And then at 16, I was learning to drive a car. Like my second time behind the wheel of a car. I nearly merged into some oncoming traffic. Everybody's like, panicking. I pulled over. I got an appointment with an ophthalmologist and then specialists after that. And it took like six months of testing, but I was finally diagnosed with this rare disease.

[Host 1]

So after that incident, you know, learning to drive a car and almost getting in a crash, did. Did you have to, like, stop that, that whole process altogether? Did you never get. Never to get your license?

[Paul Castle]

Not until I met this man. I never got my license. But this guy was like, what if there's a zombie apocalypse? I have a heart attack and you have to, like, get in a car and drive us to a desk. Like, what if. So he took me to a big empty parking lot.

[Matthew]

Yeah. Yeah, I took you to a big empty parking lot and you drove around.

[Host 2]

You know, did you feel like freedom?

[Paul Castle]

It was crazy because I was like, my foot wasn't on the pedal and we were going. I was like, we're going. He's like, yeah, it just goes on its own. I was like, it does. He's like, yeah, you have to put your foot on the brake. And like, it's like, okay, this is fast. Enough. Okay. With just letting it go.

[Matthew]

Never use the accelerator. Just coasting.

[Host 1]

Okay, wait. I feel like we're getting a little ahead of ourselves.

[Matthew]

Okay, okay.

[Host 1]

Okay, let's rewind a bit back to. Back to how you guys met. You met on a. On a dating app back. Was this in 2016?

[Matthew]

16.

[Host 1]

Wait, that's when we started dating.

[Paul Castle]

We started dating in 2018, and you guys got married in 2019. Like, we did. So. Parallels. Parallels. That's amazing.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Okay, who was it that, like.

[Paul Castle]

Like, he slid into my dm.

[Host 1]

He slid into your dm?

[Paul Castle]

I was on the app, which I connected. Had linked to my Instagram.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

Okay. And he then was sleuthing on my Instagram.

[Matthew]

So I went to his Instagram, and I was like, whoa, this guy is all these incredible large paintings. Like, beautiful, surreal, colorful. So he's an artist, and he was talking about doing commissions and shows and galleries, and then he'd recently ran a marathon. And I was like, wow, that's super cool.

[Paul Castle]

A half marathon. And it's not as impressive.

[Host 2]

That's very impressive.

[Matthew]

And he's blind. And I was like, whoa, how. How's he doing this? So I just reached out and started asking him, and that's when he started telling me about retinitis pigmentosa. And we were messaging back and forth for about two months. At that time, I lived in northern Washington state, and Paul lived in southern British Columbia. So we were just.

[Paul Castle]

I was in the Vancouver area, just.

[Matthew]

Just across the border. And so finally, after two months, I was like, I should. You know, I should go up and visit. So I said, I want to come up and visit, and you need to give me a painting lesson.

[Paul Castle]

I said, well, wow. I. I mean, I. I was like, absolutely not. This guy lives in America, and I'm Canadian. I'm like, I don't have a driver's license. I'm not gonna do this back and forth. I just look. Looking for somebody local, you know, but, like, somebody with low vision. Like me. Like, finding people through apps and dating apps, actually, way easier than, like, I don't go out to bars, clubs, like, where am I gonna meet somebody? And I was. I was painting in my own home studio, and that's how I was. Had work. So I was not, like, I was gonna meet somebody at work, but I was like, this guy's really interesting. He's really articulate. He knows a lot about my disease. He's good at, apparently, Google. And he sent me a clip of him playing his violin on stage with Andrea Bocelli. And if you're familiar.

[Matthew]

Are you. You know.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I feel like everyone knows that name.

[Paul Castle]

Okay. Yeah.

[Host 1]

I feel like an idiot. I don't even know who that is.

[Matthew]

He's an Italian opera singer, but, like, crossover into, like, popular.

[Host 1]

Oh, okay.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah. And he's, like, duetted with Celine Dion.

[Host 1]

I'll have to check out.

[Paul Castle]

He's kind of a big deal, but he goes back, like, 30 years. You know, he's been a big thing for a while. And you've heard of him.

[Host 2]

You've heard his.

[Host 1]

I've heard of it. I'm just being.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

All right.

[Paul Castle]

He was. He wasn't alive during the Roman Empire, so you may not know. And he sent me this clip, and I was like, you should have just led with that. I mean, it was. He was like, in this tuxedo, and the lighting was really, like. It was just, like, beautiful. But it was the playing, obviously. He's so talented. And I was like, okay, you can come up, but you have to bring your violin and give me a lesson and play for me. And, yes, I'll. I'll give you a painting lesson in return. And so that was our first date.

[Host 1]

That's amazing. Matthew was the. Was the dm. Can you paint me like one of your French girls? Is that what you said?

[Paul Castle]

Titanic, my friends. Titanic reference.

[Host 1]

I wanted to say that for so long.

[Paul Castle]

Okay. You definitely know Celine Dion.

[Host 2]

I was being bottled up for a little bit.

[Paul Castle]

Oh, my gosh.

[Host 1]

That's a. That's a cool first date, you guys.

[Host 2]

Very artistic.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Two artists meeting.

[Paul Castle]

That's two starving artists. Like, we were just, like, had two pennies to rub together, and we were like, let's. Yeah, I mean, it was like I wrote in my journal that night. I think I just met my husband. I've never thought that in my life, meeting anybody for the first time.

[Matthew]

And he did not tell me that.

[Paul Castle]

Pro tip, if you feel that way about somebody, don't tell them after the first date. Wait. I actually. I told them in our wedding vows. I read the journal entry for the first time three and a half years later. So I waited to let you know.

[Host 1]

Well, I have to ask it, though, because I did. I did see this when I was scrolling through your YouTube thumbnails. It was like a thumbnail about the time that you almost broke up. What. What happened? How did you go from this, like, incredible first date and being like, I met my husband to, like, it almost ending? How did that. How did that happen?

[Matthew]

Do you remember that? I don't remember this YouTube video.

[Paul Castle]

It was like a bit of a clickbait title. We were doing long form YouTube videos like three years ago, and it's like the reason we almost broke up.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

And Matthew doesn't even remember why.

[Host 2]

He's like, why.

[Paul Castle]

He's like, I don't remember why. The truth is, there's a couple things actually that we discussed in that video, and one of them was the whole blindness thing. Like entering into a serious relationship with a person with disabilities. We fell fast and hard with for each other. Like, fast and hard. Romantic comedy style. Like, just like, like get us to the courthouse kind of love. And I think it was scary for both of us to feel so in sync. And Matthew had a moment where a friend of his said, like, you're throwing your life away. This guy's going to lose all his vision. You're going to be his caretaker. And like, is that what you really want? And I think there was a moment of crisis.

[Matthew]

And I.

[Paul Castle]

Around that same time.

[Matthew]

Well, that's when I called my dad.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

Yeah. So I called up my dad and I was like, okay, so this guy, I've been telling you about him and I really like him, but like, what do you think? Like, do you think this, his. His disability should matter? And my dad was like, no. He said you could marry a fully able bodied person and then they get hit by a bus and then they're in a wheelchair. Does that mean you'd leave them? And so he's like, at least you know already what you're getting. You know, it's not gonna. It's not a surprise. And so he said if things work out, if you feel like you can work with this and things go well and then. Then, yeah, it shouldn't. It shouldn't matter. So that was. And I've always used my dad for advice. He's great. Anytime I want, I just call him up and he's got good advice. So, yeah, it was. That was the reassurance that I needed to just, like, go through with it.

[Host 2]

So you've always been close with your dad, like all growing up?

[Matthew]

No, no. Due to the cult. My cult upbringing. I went through a number of years of like, actually having no contact with really?

[Paul Castle]

Really.

[Matthew]

And then as an adult, I reestablished that and, you know, now we talk and text multiple times.

[Host 2]

Okay, that's so sweet because I knew about your upbringing. So then saying that you had such a close relationship with your dad, I was like, that's amazing. Is he still a member of the IBLP?

[Matthew]

No, no, he's out. Yeah. He did a 180.

[Host 1]

How would you describe someone that's never heard of the iblp? How would you describe that cult?

[Matthew]

It's a kind of non denominational evangelical base. But there's this guy named Bill Gothard who is a charismatic, has a charismatic personality. He's very engaging, excellent public speaker. And he started, I think back in the 60s and 70s going around doing these basic life principle seminars for just Christians. And he just had good advice on how to, you know, live and be in relationships. And so he would go around to major cities and fill stadiums. He was very, very popular. And then through time he decided, after some time he decided to have an advanced seminar and so, and a much smaller group of people went to that. And then he then decided to create his own homeschool program, his own homeschool curriculum. And that was kind of like the third step. If you went through the basic and then the advanced seminar then, and you liked it, then you signed up for his homeschool curriculum, which my parents did.

[Paul Castle]

And that was called, that was called ati, the Advanced Training Institute.

[Matthew]

Right, Sounds great. Who doesn't want advanced training? And that became really a cult. It was all about whatever he said to do. And people really followed him in this very cult like mentality. And a lot of the teaching started to get really strange. And you know, he was hearing from God every year and then presenting what God told him, had told him at that year's conference. And everyone just followed him with this just blind, zealous enthusiasm.

[Host 2]

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You know, sometimes no.

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

How old were you when you started to connect the dots and realize that what you were being taught and what you were growing up in was a cult wasn't the norm and was very different than the rest of the the world?

[Matthew]

Definitely mid teens. I was like, oh, we're weird because, you know, when I, when I would talk, when I would talk to people not in the cult, I would have to, like, downplay it and really kind of like fudge a lot and not really explain it very much because I was like, if I explain this, this is weird.

[Host 2]

Like, were you homeschooled?

[Matthew]

Yeah, I was homeschooled.

[Host 2]

That was like the curriculum.

[Matthew]

That was the curriculum.

[Host 1]

There was no television. No television. Movies. No even. Okay. I'm surprised because you being a such a talented violinist, Was the violin what you got really good at because you weren't allowed to listen to music, so you just had to make your own.

[Matthew]

Partly. I mean, partly. It was like we had all this time we were homeschooled, so violin could just become a big part of the curriculum. In fact, it was like, so important that my mom would say it's. It's one of the subjects you have to have done before lunch, you know,

[Host 2]

So I feel like a lot of kids I knew that were homeschool growing up played the harp or the violin.

[Host 1]

Oh, wow.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Bill Gothard or piano?

[Matthew]

Bill Gothard was a huge fan of music. He really encouraged it. And he'd have all these families come up during the summer conference that, like, all played violin. Yeah, he liked violin. All played violin or played a mix of instruments. And so my brother and sister and I, we all played violin. And so there was a couple of summer conferences where we were up on stage performing for you. 60,000 people.

[Paul Castle]

Wow. And the Duggars sitting there, front row.

[Host 2]

Okay. I was gonna ask were there a lot of siblings? Because we've actually had the pleasure of talking to a few of the Duggars on our show. And so we kind of have learned a lot about IBLP as adults. But from an outside perspective, obviously. But obviously, I was gonna ask if you have a lot of siblings, but it seems like you have two.

[Matthew]

Yeah, yeah. And we felt shame around that because you were going to these conferences with these big families, and you could tell that people were looking at you like,

[Paul Castle]

where are the rest?

[Matthew]

What's wrong?

[Paul Castle]

Where are the three?

[Matthew]

What's wrong with you? You know, because Bill Gothard took this verse out of somewhere in the Old Testament about a quiver full of arrows, and he decided that that meant that families were supposed to have as many children as possible, because a quiver full of arrows was as many children as you could possibly have. And then you were supposed to, I guess, shoot them out into the world to do good.

[Paul Castle]

And he wanted to take over.

[Matthew]

Yeah. Promote his agenda. Yeah, yeah. He was creating his own army.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Host 1]

Can you speak to keeping a journal entry of. Of your childhood? I know, like, learning about your story, I found it super interesting that you had to hide your journal underneath your dresser and tape it underneath your dresser. And from my understanding, your mom ended up discovering the journal, reading all of it. Can you, like, speak to that? And what. What exactly transpired?

[Matthew]

Yeah. So I went on a retreat, and it was during that time that I really came to grips with everything. And I was like, this is not good. Also, you know, the cult. Being gay was an abomination. So I was also in a lot of denial because I was like, well, this is who I is. But this is who I is.

[Paul Castle]

This is who I is.

[Matthew]

This is who I is.

[Paul Castle]

The title of his new memoir, that's actually good. This is who I is. Actually good. I buy it Homeschooled.

[Matthew]

Yeah, this is who I am. But also, it can't be because I'm not an abomination. I'm a good person. I do what I'm told. I obey my parents. I'm, like, doing everything right. So how could I be both things? So I just used that week. It was a. It was a retreat where you did a lot of journaling. You were encouraged to just journal and get your thoughts out. And so I did. And that's when I kind of realized, like, oh, this isn't gonna work. I'm gonna have to. I'm gonna have to leave at some point. I don't know when. I don't know how to go about that, but at some point I will.

[Host 2]

At what age about was that?

[Matthew]

This is around what.

[Paul Castle]

This is so interesting because I've helped him re. Build and understand the timeline because so much of it is just, like, due to ptsd.

[Matthew]

I have a lot of, like, I don't, like, remember dates.

[Paul Castle]

Dates at all.

[Matthew]

I have vague memories of these events, but I can't really place it. Them.

[Host 2]

This is my other question. Were you raised near Arkansas then?

[Matthew]

No.

[Host 2]

Okay, so iblp. Oh, Kansas. Okay.

[Matthew]

It was a. IBLP was worldwide. Anybody could subscribe, pay the annual fee, and get the program and just start following it.

[Host 2]

So were other families around you when you weren't, like, going to big conferences.

[Matthew]

It was very common for people in the. In iblp, ATI to kind of end up going to the same churches. So the church we went to in Kansas City was, like, probably 90%.

[Host 1]

Wait, did you say Kansas City?

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

Oh, my gosh.

[Host 1]

Wait.

[Paul Castle]

My brother.

[Host 1]

My brother lived in. I'm from St. Louis originally. My brother lived in Kansas City.

[Host 2]

School in Springfield, Missouri.

[Host 1]

Oh, wow.

[Matthew]

Yeah. Yeah, we lived in, like, south of Overland Park.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

I don't know, like, Kansas City super well, but, like, my. My brother briefly lived near the Plaza. Okay. Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

Right.

[Matthew]

Is really nice.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Small world. Crazy.

[Paul Castle]

And the other thing that was part of your cult were the institutes of the. The music institutes that you would go to?

[Matthew]

Oh, yeah, there was lots of. Lots of institutes or summer camps, whatever you would want to call them, that you would go to, and, like, months. Yeah, they ranged anywhere from a week up to. You could go for several months. And I was a big part of a lot of the music programs that were called Sound Encounters. And that was where all the kids who, you know, were really passionate about music would show up and we'd have, like, two weeks in one of his training centers. And, yeah, it was a lot of fun.

[Paul Castle]

And Matthew recently told me, like, you either did these Sound Encounters, these music things, but if you weren't into music, you went to these, like, military camps. They were, like, these boot camps for kids where they were, like. It was far more, like, militant.

[Matthew]

Right. Yeah. There were a couple of options you kind of had to find.

[Host 2]

Where, like, work camps.

[Matthew]

Yeah, there were work camps. You got a lot of free labor out of it.

[Host 1]

And Paul, like, growing up near Vancouver, Canada, were you, like, in Vancouver or just outside of it? Like, just.

[Paul Castle]

Well, I was born there, but I actually was growing up in Seattle due to my. My dad's work, so. Okay, but just in the Pacific Northwest.

[Host 1]

Yeah, but in your neck of the woods, was it, like, was your upbringing similar to Matthew's where it wasn't acceptable to be gay? Was that part of your story?

[Paul Castle]

Oh, mine's a bit different. Because I, my parents were like Easter and Christmas churchgoers. I had a family member, an aunt who was a born again Christian and her influence, because she was the eldest kid, my mom's older sister, she kind of influenced all of her sisters to also sort of enter the church a little more seriously. And then at the age of 14, I actually was adopted by that aunt. Due to my mom has. Has had continued struggles with alcohol and it's still not sober, but I was adopted by that aunt and I moved to a tiny rural Canadian town and was baptized and was thrown into the evangelical church. And this was the type of church where it's like rock bands on stage, the half pipe out back. It's like the cool, like born again cool church. Yeah. We'd go to these like Jesus freaks, like three day concert events with mosh pits and stuff.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

But it's all very like different brand. It's a different,

[Host 1]

very different brands of Christian, that's for sure.

[Paul Castle]

But at the same time, yes, being gay was a sin. And I knew I was and that was not okay, especially in the small town I was going to high school in. So I didn't feel comfortable coming out. But I had come out to myself and I. My dad, interestingly, had moved to San Francisco. His work had taken him down there. And I remember, think I called him when I was 16 years old. I was like, dad, when I graduate, can I move in with you? Can I come down to San Francisco? Because I was like, there's the gay mecca. And he's like, absolutely, you can. So I marked that date. I just counted down the days. In the meantime, I just carried my Bible everywhere I went. And then when I graduated, I flew to San Francisco, made a bunch of cool friends in college, marched in my first pride parade when I was 18 years old. And so that was sort of my coming to terms with it. But it was, it was difficult because of course, growing up in that religious environment, I was dealing again with a lot of shame.

[Matthew]

Wow.

[Paul Castle]

Not to the intensity that Matthew has had to deal with, but it's been interesting sharing our stories that way.

[Host 1]

I have a family member that is openly gay and like, I'm so happy for him. And that's just been like, I've learned a lot just getting to talk, talk to him and be there for him and so, so happy that you guys were able to find each other and just have this happy life that you probably at one point never thought would be a possibility for you. So I think that's really cool. Absolutely. What I found so interesting about your story, Matthew, is just that. Yeah, your relationship with your dad really wasn't going so well, and you ended up, you know, now you have a great relationship. But in. In that timeline, you ran away from home, right?

[Matthew]

Yeah. Yeah. So when I came back from that retreat and I knew that my time was limited and I hid my journal, I duct taped it to the underside of a dresser, thinking no one would, like, reach under a dresser and reach up and check the bottom of, you know, but my mom did. And so that was kind of the countdown timer. I knew I was going to be out quickly, and so I had my bags packed. I was prepped. And then one day, things kind of went south really quickly. And so I went to the bedroom and grabbed my bag and climbed out my bedroom window, got in my car.

[Paul Castle]

And your violin?

[Matthew]

And my violin. He had to have his violin and never returned. And my parents were divorced at that time. And so it kind of took me a number of years, at least five years to kind of find myself, figure out who I was. Just even operating by myself in the world was a challenge without all the structure that I had grown up with. But once I felt, like, comfortable and I'd kind of, like, been through the hard work of rediscovering who I was, then I really felt prompted to reach out to my dad. And I did. And that just began a really incredible friendship. A relationship that we just never had. Yeah, before.

[Host 2]

Support for today's episode comes from Square, and they've got big news. During Square's biannual releases event, they launched a wave of innovative new tools to help local businesses run faster, smarter, and more profitably. Whether you're starting fresh or scaling fast, Square helps you learn fast and get ahead.

[Host 1]

My favorite part about Square is that kids in neighborhoods near us are using it. So a couple months ago, we were getting hot chocolate at a hot chocolate stand and realized, oh, my gosh, we don't have cash to pay these kids in this neighborhood. And that's when the kids were like, no, you can just use a credit card and pay us with your credit card. Apple Pay because of Square. Yeah, we used Apple Pay. And so I'm so thankful for them empowering the kids doing hot chocolate stands. Arizona. That's awesome. Maybe when our kids eliminated and we'll have to get them a little Square.

[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

If you're ready to sell smarter, run faster and stress less. Right now you can get up to 200 off square [e-mail] go unplanned. That's s q u a r e.com g o unplanned. Run your business smarter with square. Get started Today I'm looking at the title of your. Of your new book, the Internet Troll, which I just find so funny because of, you know, anybody that's ever been on the Internet. Notice how crazy the comment sections can be.

[Paul Castle]

Oh yeah.

[Host 1]

Such a cute book. I guess the question I wanted to ask with this being a new book that you just came out with, do you think, do you see more trolls coming for you when it comes to being gay or being blind? Like, you know, things like where do you see more negative blind?

[Paul Castle]

I mean, I think it's shifted. I would say 10. Like maybe when we started and we were sharing our photos, you know, we started off like we were like, okay, we want to, you know, in 2020 pandemic. We're like let. We had, we started a podcast. We're like, we got to promote the podcast and we were like posting pictures and things of our relationship and. And the podcast was just us having a conversation. It was called his and His. And it was just like about two husbands having a conversation, talking about their growing up gay, etc. And so we were making that the focal point of our content creation. And I think that's why we got a lot of homophobia and it pretty nasty, you know. And we would try to create a safe space because we were trying to attract and build a community where people felt safe to be themselves. And so we were, you know, trying to stay on top of that. And it's interesting because I feel like not neither of us took any of that to heart because we just growing up gay and growing up the way we did, we understand that that's just. There's just a lot of people that don't. That are ignorant and don't understand around the world and it's not something that we take personally. But then when we, we shifted, I would say about four years ago, three years ago actually, to really focusing on being an interabled couple and talking about my journey with sight loss and that is when this whole new crop of trolls emerged to accuse me of faking my blindness.

[Matthew]

Yeah, there's a lot of blind deniers.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, really, we call them the Blind deniers.

[Host 1]

Why do people. Yeah. Why would people say that you're faking being blind?

[Matthew]

I think it's because Paul can look at you so well. Like, if he. Like right now, he could probably only find one of your eyes, and that's it. He probably can't even see your eyebrow, but just one of your eyes. So if he locks on, it really looks like he's, like, can see you. And so often, like, when he walks around our. Our apartment or he's looking at the camera, he looks so able.

[Paul Castle]

Sure.

[Matthew]

And I. And I think people have an expectation that blindness means, like, maybe your eyes are just white or they're close. I mean, people will say that. Sunglasses. Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

I mean, I don't really blame them because all I look at it as is this. We all grew up seeing blindness represented one way in TV and movies and books. Right. It's like they have no vision. They have the dark glasses on. They can't see anything.

[Matthew]

Right.

[Paul Castle]

They have a dog or a cane. There's nothing there. Right.

[Host 1]

Totally.

[Paul Castle]

And the truth is, like, all disabilities, blindness exists on a spectrum. There is a legal threshold, but then in that zone, there's like a huge variance of what blind people can and can't see. In fact, 93% of the blind community is. Can see something. They have something called functional vision. Whether that's just light and shadows, whether it's just the peripheral vision, they can just see out of the corner and there's nothing in front of them. Or like me, it's like looking through a pinhole or just like looking through a straw.

[Host 1]

I had no idea. So 7% of blind people have the type of blindness where they don't see anything.

[Paul Castle]

Right?

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Okay. Right.

[Matthew]

And they call themselves totals.

[Host 1]

Totals.

[Matthew]

Like, I'm a total.

[Host 1]

Really?

[Matthew]

Which you just learned.

[Host 1]

Online communities of totals are like, totals.

[Paul Castle]

What's up?

[Matthew]

Yes. Yes.

[Paul Castle]

And so I think coming off online and talking about blindness that way and it not looking the way people expect it to look, just upset them. You know, I just like, they're like, you're faking it. You're faking it for clout. You're faking it for views. You're making all this up by just not buying it. And we approach that with gentleness and education.

[Host 2]

That's a kind way of describing it. You're like, this is. This is a reality of my everyday.

[Paul Castle]

But I did elect to come on line and represent something that I felt was underrepresented. And I knew that there would be confusion. And so I see it as an Opportunity to educate and change. And initially we had saved phrases to, like, explain the levels of blindness, like, help people go deeper. We did visual. We even did like simulations on screen simulations to show what different levels of blindness could look like, etc. Etc. And that was a lot of work in the beginning. And now we're to the point where if one of those people pop up in our comments, we see about 10 dedicated followers explaining it to them for us at this point.

[Host 1]

That's awesome.

[Paul Castle]

And so that's like seeing it in action, that people really are getting it and spreading that.

[Matthew]

But even in the early days, we could get some really nasty comment, send a safe phrase, you know, blindness is a spectrum, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then oftentimes they would reply like, oh, I'm so sorry. Thank you so much. I didn't realize.

[Paul Castle]

And they were so rude at the beginning and it felt so nice.

[Matthew]

It felt so good to get this like, like super rude comment, explain to them just briefly and then, and then get such kindness back. You know, it just was a little bit of education.

[Paul Castle]

I just say we have this rule, no clapbacks. And if it makes your heart rate, if it increases your heart rate, just delete it.

[Host 2]

That's a really great rule. I feel like we've actually.

[Paul Castle]

If it gets the blood boiling, just delete it.

[Host 2]

Just evaluate your body in that moment.

[Matthew]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host 2]

Yep. It's got to go sometimes. That depends. That changes day to day for me, though. I told Matt I was like, one of these. One day, some girl I got on my Instagram, it was like, she's like, girl, those sunglasses are not it. I was like, she's gotta get blocked.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

It was just that day for me, I was like, that was dramatic. That was really.

[Paul Castle]

We've been on the block train too, a few times. It feels good. Like, I'm just. But then I noticed, like, in other. On other platforms, I'll see people on. I've encountered comments of like, oh, they blocked me. And that's like a badge for them. Oh, they're like, they are so happy that they got under your skin to the point of being blocked. So I'm like, forget it. I'm not doing that.

[Host 2]

Okay, good. That's good to know.

[Paul Castle]

That's good to know. We're not giving them what they want. But that's why I wrote the book.

[Host 2]

Appreciate your education so much. I think that's very, that's very kind, generous of you. Like, because that's not your. That's not necessarily like you. Your Job.

[Host 1]

Exactly.

[Host 2]

You've taken that on. I have a kind of curious question, if it's okay if I ask.

[Matthew]

Of course.

[Host 2]

Okay. You have beautiful blue eyes.

[Paul Castle]

Thank you.

[Host 2]

Is there any correlation between eye color and this condition or, like, eye issues in general? Because I was actually just talking to one of my friends whose son has, like, very light blue eyes, and she was, like, talking about the issues he has because of the color of his eyes. I've never even heard of that before.

[Paul Castle]

Right.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Paul Castle]

That's such an interesting question. And officially, the answer is likely no. I'm not a doctor, but almost everybody I've met with the condition or seen with the condition has these, like, really light eyes. Like, there's a lot of overlap there.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Paul Castle]

But then I know that these. Maybe we need to publish a paper, Abby, just on our observations credentials.

[Host 2]

Zero. They're just like, saying, like, the bright sun, like, makes, like, squinting easier. And then I was thinking about me and you. Like, my eyes are larger than you. Yours. They're not super light. You've really dark eyes. But in pictures, I'll be like, and your eyes are perfectly open.

[Host 1]

Why do I feel like I'm squinty, though, in photos?

[Host 2]

That's just because you're brow bone.

[Host 1]

Someone. Someone listening to this right now. Please comment down below if there's any basis, like, any science, any scientific evidence to this, because I actually want to. Really, I want to know. Yeah, let's create conversation in the comments, people.

[Paul Castle]

I want to know. And people love to do that. There's a lot of experts out there.

[Host 2]

Your parents, quote, unquote, keyboard experts.

[Paul Castle]

And my parents have blue eyes.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Okay, well, then there's.

[Paul Castle]

There's that.

[Host 2]

There's that. Well, interesting.

[Paul Castle]

I was just thinking about that, actually. No, I was born with dark brown eyes. You're saying they're blue now? No, I'm just kidding.

[Host 2]

I was like, stop it. I'm too cute. I'm too global.

[Paul Castle]

You are too cute.

[Host 2]

Oh, no, I didn't say cute. I said global. I would not say that, but that's funny. Thank you to Good Wipes for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. We're big fans of Good Wipes in this household.

[Host 1]

We are.

[Host 2]

And I don't think you need the details, but you kind of understand they come in handy.

[Host 1]

Yes. Sometimes you just need to wipe a little bit extra. Seriously, now you got the details.

[Host 2]

They really do come in handy, whether it's us or the kids. And also, they're just nice to offer for guests. Just makes everyone feel pressure. Okay.

[Host 1]

Know how our kids get a serious case of booger nose? I've been using the good wipes on their booger nose. What? Because they just get so. There's so many like dried book and you're like, how does that even happen? Just grab a good wipe. Done.

[Host 2]

Here's why we love them.

[Host 1]

And they're so soft. It's not as like abrasive as like regular kids.

[Host 2]

That's exactly right. The softness, the smell, the size, all these make these wipes truly perfect. They are made with plant based materials which feel much better on the skin than other brands and especially toilet paper. I also appreciate that they are truly flushable. We're not worried about our pipes over here. Like I would be with some other types of products like this.

[Host 1]

Good Wipes wants your booty to have a sensational summer. Buy any two pack of Good wipes at your favorite retailer, text them your receipt and get reimbursed almost immediately for one of them. For more details, head to good wipes.comunplanned Again, that's good wipes.com/unplanned. To snag a free pack of Good wipes on the same sort of thought train when it comes to, yeah, your parents and then potentially you both becoming parents one day. Have you thought about that? Have you thought about like, okay, like if we have a kid, you know, via surrogate or adoption or whatever. If it is a surrogate, you know, from what you were saying, there is the potential that your kid could inherit what you have. Like, describe what that's like from your perspective. Because I feel like there's probably somebody out there that has some sort of disability and probably is faced with the same sort of question of like, what do you do you.

[Paul Castle]

I would first of all recommend doing genetic testing because that's how you know if you're gonna pass it on or what gene it's, you know, present in. Because you have to understand that component, the biological part. So like, I have it. Mine's X linked. So I could only pass it if I had my own biological kid. I could only pass it to a girl. Is that right?

[Host 2]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matthew]

Okay, thank you.

[Paul Castle]

You're on it. You know the X wing. Yeah, See, I know what I'm talking about. I is what I is.

[Matthew]

And then she could only. Your daughter could only. She wouldn't have it.

[Paul Castle]

She wouldn't have it.

[Matthew]

She would.

[Paul Castle]

She would be recessive because it's the X's. So it would be recessive. No symptoms. But she could pass it on to a boy. 50. 50.

[Host 2]

That's a lot to think about.

[Paul Castle]

So we're talking my grand. Your grandson might have. It would have a 50.

[Host 1]

And that's because if she has a boy.

[Host 2]

If she has a boy, that's another very.

[Paul Castle]

So is that a reason not to have a child is something you have to really wrestle with. And we've been down that road with. With.

[Matthew]

Yeah, we actually thought we would have our first by now. By now all lined up. We had an egg donor, a surrogate. Paul side of the family, a surrogate who volunteered.

[Paul Castle]

And Matthew was gonna be the father, of course. And then we were. Because I. The egg donor was gonna be my. My cousin. So that was gonna allow us to have, like, this genetically, you know, as close as we can get as a gay couple.

[Host 2]

Oh, that is really cool.

[Paul Castle]

Right? And we had the fertility clinic picked out, and we were just, like, ready for it, and it kind of fell apart. It fell apart all at the same

[Matthew]

time and changed their mind and. Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

So, yeah, it just changed everything suddenly for us and made us really re. Evaluate and sort of pause and see, like, okay, you know, we're just gonna wait for the next sign or signal and just see how it feels in our bodies. Because it was kind of devastating for that to all fall apart. We need to take a minute that probably.

[Host 1]

I mean, I don't want to, like, speak for Abby, but I'm sure, you know, us. I don't know if you know our story, but we went through a miscarriage last year, and I can only imagine that, you know, that kind of something similar. There might be that level of excitement that you had, just the sheer joy of, like, having a kid and getting to become a dad and, you know, especially, too, with. With your situation with it being your cousin and you being the donor, like, that seems. I'm, like, probably messing up terminology here, but I feel like that was just such a cool thing to experience, and for that all to go away. It must have been. Yeah. Devastating.

[Matthew]

Yeah. Yeah. It really changed things. Yeah, it was a real moment of just, like, to stop and pause and. And reevaluate.

[Paul Castle]

It's interesting. You know, we haven't. We've talked about it publicly, like, once, and, you know, when you think you kind of know what your life plan is gonna be and you're kind of setting everything up, but what. You know, as I'm saying that I'm like, how often does that really happen?

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

You know, what is life without these little curve balls? And. But it did make us both really sad. I Think we had to really sit with the sadness for a while and think, like, oh, the future we thought we were building might not be the one. And would we be okay if that isn't the way it went?

[Host 1]

What do you guys do to cope with that grief?

[Matthew]

Matthew, what do you do to cope?

[Paul Castle]

Because I know me. I mean, like, for me it's all creative.

[Matthew]

Well, I'm in therapy, so we both

[Paul Castle]

are big into therapy, so we both see therapists. We've seen like couples therapists or individual therapists, so that's important. But I've often processed all my feelings through art, through my art. So, you know, just through my illustrations and my painting and that sort of thing is a way for me to process and feel. Writing stories. Matthew, do you do that with your music at all?

[Matthew]

I don't. I'm too. I can't think about something else while I'm playing the violin.

[Paul Castle]

But, like, does it transmute any of the emotion?

[Matthew]

It can. It can process emotions even without me, like. Like thinking or verbalizing it.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Were you like a career violinist? Like, I mean, probably if you were at that level, like.

[Matthew]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was.

[Host 2]

That's so cool.

[Matthew]

Yeah, that was the. My one single focus. Finding the best teachers was my. My mom's like, sole focus wherever we lived. And I got accepted into the pre collegiate division of Juilliard at a young age.

[Host 2]

That's right.

[Matthew]

And then at Eastman. But Gothard was very anti college university because he said that's where you. Your kids would be secularized and won over by the world and, you know, you'd lose them. So I think he installed that.

[Paul Castle]

Secularized. That's a tough one. Yeah, secularized. Okay.

[Matthew]

So he instilled a lot of fear, I think, in the parents, like that. That was a dangerous thing. And so I didn't get to enter any of those programs. I still continued to study music and then, you know, got my first job. I got jobs anyway because you don't really need a degree. It just matters how you sound. So if you play well, you get the job. So, I mean, I am sad that I missed those opportunities, but it didn't really seem to hurt that much.

[Host 2]

So it seems like your mom was the one that, like, kind of like

[Matthew]

she was very musical. Yeah, she played like banjo, flute, violin and piano growing up. And my father was so unmusical that he got kicked out of choirs. Oh, my gosh.

[Host 1]

Something I think is really cool is how you incorporate your own life into the children's books that you write. Have you ever Thought about, you know, the, the surrogacy story that didn't work out for you guys. That one doesn't have a happy ending. At least right now it doesn't. And I'm hoping that you guys get the happy ending. But was there, is there ever. Has there ever been the idea of putting that story into a book?

[Paul Castle]

I am working on a book about grief for children. And it's meant to be processing any type of grief really, any type of loss like that.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Paul Castle]

But specifically it was inspired by losing my brother. My. My older brother passed away four years ago suddenly from an overdose. He was struggling with addiction after a foot injury which led to opioids. And it was just a fast ascent to fentanyl and then that was it. Yeah, that's been so interesting for me to go through losing him. And I say interesting because it's just like, I don't know how to describe it to anybody. And obviously you guys have understanding around that with your recent loss. The grief journey is like a lily pad of jumping back and forth. Like it's non linear, right. And it, you. You jump through all those phases all the time. You can be angry. And I just remember the bargaining from even when early on, like after he passed, I was like trying to make a deal with like the universe, like, can we turn back time? Like, how can we find him? How could. This can't be real and then getting to the point of acceptance. But this is like randomly feeling angry at him. Like, how could you do this to us? And so I've been working on this book about grief and loss for like, how could that, how can I make that digestible for a child that loses anything from a pet to like their grandparent, or an adult who loses a child or somebody who loses a sibling or somebody who's grieving the loss of a future they thought they were building. And so I got this vision. My brother was a fisherman and he was a Pisces. And I got this vision one day while I was cleaning. I was, I always had the conversations with my brother now. And I was like talking to him and I was like, you know, I have to, I want to do a book about this. And this vision came to me of this image of a school of fish. Like a, from, from. From the side. You know, you just see the like the classic like triangular shape of a school of fish underwater. But like one is missing. So there's just this hole, there's this empty space. And I was thinking about all the things we do to fill that Space. Before we can accept that, the space is just always there. And like a school of fish, we continue to move forward in time, but that doesn't mean the space ever disappears. And some days it feels smaller. Sometimes it feels bigger, and I wanted to represent that. So I literally sat down that night and drew the image of the school of fish, and I was like, this needs to be a book. So it's something I'm currently working on to process all those feelings.

[Host 1]

I want to read that book that I'm. I'm sold. That. That just seems so powerful.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

I can just feel. I can just, like, I see it visually, like, as you described. The triangle with the missing fish.

[Matthew]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host 1]

And it's so sad. Like, when you said the missing, like, just that. Like, that hole, I just. I could see it, and it just. Like, my heart just. Just, like, sunk, you know?

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

That came from my brother. I cannot take credit for that. That image came from my brother for sure, but I'm just a conduit, so I'm working on it.

[Host 2]

So sorry to hear about your loss.

[Host 1]

That's.

[Matthew]

Thank you.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Really hard to hear. How did that affect your family? Like.

[Paul Castle]

Oh, God. Yeah. That was. I mean, very devastating, obviously.

[Matthew]

Yeah. Both of your parents, it's been so hard on.

[Paul Castle]

It was such an interesting thing because my brother is my only sibling, and then I became an only child, and for, like, the first year after his passing, I remember because it shattered my parents. Like, I've just never seen them so broken ever, and they weren't together. My parents have been divorced for. Since I was, like, 10 years old. But individually, you know, just watching them go through the grieving process, and it nearly killed my mom. She's just finally actually finding some light for herself after these four years and trying to move forward. I'm really proud of her, you know, But I was terrified something was gonna happen to me. All I could think about anytime I boarded a plane or crossed the street, and it wasn't for. I was like, my parents can't lose me, too.

[Host 1]

I can't. They can't go through this.

[Paul Castle]

All I was thinking about, I was like, I have to protect myself because they can't lose another kid.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

It was the straight. I never thought that that would be in a. Gripped me with fear for, like, a year. And I shared it with both of them individually, and they both said the same thing. They're like, paul, you got to live your life. Don't ever live that way with fear. Don't let fear rule you. That would be more upsetting to us.

[Host 1]

That's. Wow. We thank you for opening up about that. Thank you for sharing that. We, like, got. We got really deep there, and I

[Paul Castle]

want to, like, maybe.

[Host 1]

Maybe lighten it up for a second.

[Paul Castle]

Children's books.

[Host 1]

Tell us about your wedding. Yeah, I want to know. I want to know all the details about your wedding, because we all got married in 2019, right?

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Weddings weren't really happening.

[Host 1]

I know.

[Paul Castle]

What month were you guys?

[Host 1]

July.

[Matthew]

We were December.

[Host 1]

December. Oh, so you were really right before

[Host 2]

COVID When did you meet?

[Matthew]

In two.

[Host 2]

20,000 and 2016. Because I have a theory about the summer of 2016.

[Matthew]

Oh, really?

[Paul Castle]

June 10th.

[Host 2]

So, yes.

[Paul Castle]

We're about to hit 10 years.

[Host 2]

There's something about this.

[Host 1]

That was when we started. We were, like, flirting.

[Paul Castle]

What was your. What's your official like? Meeting each other. Well, what's your. Like. What do you consider your.

[Host 2]

June 18th was our first date.

[Host 1]

First date on my birthday.

[Paul Castle]

June anniversary. Really?

[Host 1]

Yep.

[Host 2]

We became boyfriend, girlfriend.

[Host 1]

On my golden birthday, I turned 18.

[Paul Castle]

Oh, yeah.

[Host 1]

And the whole idea. My whole idea was like, all right, I'm becoming a man.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Turning 18. It's my golden birthday.

[Host 2]

She hadn't been on any dates.

[Host 1]

I've never asked a girl out, and I've never kissed a girl. And it's happening right now. And I'm like, this girl is so beautiful, and she's funny.

[Host 2]

I just happened to be there, and she's so sweet.

[Host 1]

No, I kind of got hit with this, like, you know, I don't know, early life crisis of, like, what am I doing? And then I'm like, here's this.

[Paul Castle]

Like, this.

[Host 1]

Maybe this is my future wife. And, hey, look. Look at what happened.

[Paul Castle]

Wow. And it was on your birthday, and you had the date and you had the kiss.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Oh, my God.

[Paul Castle]

That's amazing.

[Host 1]

But this is about you guys. I want to know your story.

[Matthew]

No, I love it. So we had been to Mexico, a town way south on the Pacific coast called Zihuantaneo, near Ixtapa, with Paul's aunt and uncle. And it was beautiful. It was a little fishing village, not super touristy, at least compared to some of the other areas. And we both looked at each other, and we were like, if we ever get married, it's going to be here. This is really incredible. And we were staring at this beautiful bed and breakfast that had a rooftop pool that overlooked the entire little horseshoe bay.

[Paul Castle]

When was that? The be like, that was, like, at the beginning, at the end of 2018. And I was like, well, if we're gonna get married, let's just plan it now. And he's like, well, no, I want to propose. I was like, well, get down on your knee then. And he's like, well, no, I want it to be a surprise.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

So I gave him, like, a little bit of an ultimatum.

[Host 1]

Okay. Super, super ignorant question. How do you know who's gonna propose to who?

[Paul Castle]

Well, it was just. Just that conversation, really. I was. Because I was like, I don't.

[Matthew]

Paul didn't want it.

[Paul Castle]

I don't. He was like, we don't need.

[Matthew]

No one needs to propose here. We're just gonna get married.

[Paul Castle]

We both want to get married.

[Matthew]

Yeah. And I was like, no, no, no, I. I want to propose, and I want to surprise you.

[Paul Castle]

And I had never had the desire to do that. So I was like, okay, if this has, like, been in your heart, if this is a goal of yours, then. Then you need to do it, but you need to do it within the next six months, or we're just gonna start planning the wedding, because this place. Venue is gonna go.

[Matthew]

Yes. Yeah. So I had six months, and I picked a good spot. Surprised him. And.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, you really did surprise me. But it was, like, at the top of this snowy peak in. In Canada. And it was like I was looking at the view because, like, again, my vision's just like this little pinhole, and I look at my phone a lot to try to take in more of my surroundings.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

Looking all over. He's kneeling in the snow. Oh. He doesn't say anything. He just drops out of my view. I don't even know where he is. And he's holding out the ring, and my aunt and uncle are there filming the whole thing or ready to take the photos. And I don't know. How long were you there?

[Matthew]

I don't know.

[Paul Castle]

Was your knee getting cold?

[Matthew]

Maybe a minute? Yeah, it was getting cold. It was a minute or two. And then your aunt finally said, where's Matthew? And that's. And then he saw me in front of him.

[Host 1]

He's like, are we still in Mexico? Mexico?

[Paul Castle]

Or this.

[Host 1]

No, this is beautiful.

[Matthew]

Was in Canada, right? We made.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Paul Castle]

But the wedding ended up being in Mexico.

[Matthew]

Very cool. So as soon as I proposed, then we were like, okay, now we can book the wedding in Mexico.

[Paul Castle]

Yep.

[Host 1]

Very cool.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Paul Castle]

And we had this tiny, tiny wedding. We only want that. It was. The rooftop. Could only fit 12 people.

[Host 1]

Oh, really?

[Matthew]

So they're like, you can invite 10 people. Yeah. Yeah.

[Host 2]

So that's the two of you.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Who did you invite?

[Paul Castle]

Well, our.

[Matthew]

Our closest family members, which wasn't many

[Paul Castle]

and a few friends.

[Matthew]

Yeah, it was actually very intimate.

[Paul Castle]

It was very intimate. And it was funny because it was like seven years ago now. I feel like we were doing it now. Oh, my gosh. We would have to like.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

Because that early in our relationship, like, we hadn't made a ton of mutual friends and like, the interesting part about our lives when we met was we were both really starting fresh. I mean, Matthew wasn't out of the cult for even that long.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

It's not like he had these lifelong friends or he's not going to be, you know, inviting Bill Gothard and his cohorts to the wedding. You know, he's still alive, but he's been ousted. Ousted. He's not the leader anymore, but anyway. Oh, that's a whole thing. But it's still.

[Host 1]

Was that pre shiny happy people or post shiny happy people that he got ousted as the leader?

[Paul Castle]

Pre.

[Matthew]

Pre.

[Paul Castle]

Oh, it's actually in the documentary they do talk about the allegations against him. Him.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Matthew]

Final episode. They do talk about him being kicked out.

[Paul Castle]

Didn't one of the Duggars take over the role?

[Matthew]

No.

[Paul Castle]

Oh, okay. I thought they had a prominent role anyway. That's a whole thing. Shiny happy people was traumatic.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Paul Castle]

But happy thoughts.

[Host 1]

Happy.

[Paul Castle]

So we were up there on the. Now, I told you, our first date, I made Matthew serenade me with his violin.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Paul Castle]

It was the violin thing. And so when it came time to do our vows and I told you, I read my journal entry to him, but Matthew wanted to play a song for his vows, so he brought his violin down to Mexico and he played one of my favorite songs, which is the, like the Jeff Buckley Hallelujah. You know, it's a very over covered song that everybody's heard a bazillion times. But it's like, it's so beautiful.

[Matthew]

Heartbreaking.

[Paul Castle]

I know, right?

[Host 2]

Just do whatever you want.

[Paul Castle]

Do whatever you want. And it was this really, really beautiful moment. And we had timed the whole ceremony to the sunset over the bay. And that was a mistake because Right as we said, I do. And we're just like, oh. We look over and our entire wedding party is staring over at the sunset.

[Host 2]

It's beautiful.

[Paul Castle]

Nobody really witnessed it, so yeah, it was funny.

[Matthew]

But it was a beautiful wedding. We had an amazing little dinner afterwards and they made this. This cutest little cake with these little figurines of us.

[Paul Castle]

Oh, yeah, the penguins.

[Matthew]

And then everyone who came down kind of booked a whole week. So we ended up just all hanging out every day and meeting up at different places to do lunch or go on an outing. So it was. It was like a wedding week.

[Paul Castle]

It was really, really cool.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Did you play It's Raining Men at the reception?

[Paul Castle]

Do you want to know something? We had no music. No music. And that was Matthew's request.

[Matthew]

I had been. I had grown up as a wedding musician. I was like, I hate weddings. I hate playing at weddings. I don't want any wedding musicians. And then I think it was the day before the owners of the bed and breakfast, who were hosting. Yeah. And they'd actually volunteered to organize the whole thing for us. They were very, very kind. They'd be like, do you want flowers? We're like, yes. They're like, what kinds do you want? We're like, whatever is in season.

[Paul Castle]

And, by the way, cheap to get married there.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

It was very easy financially to have a beautiful wedding.

[Matthew]

Go.

[Host 1]

We love Mexico. We love taking our baby moons to Mexico.

[Paul Castle]

Oh, yeah.

[Host 1]

We'll do a. Valerie. A vowel. Yes.

[Host 2]

I want to do that.

[Host 1]

Let's do it. That'd be fun.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Because we're. This every 10 years, maybe we'll do a. Like a decade of marriage. But this summer, similar to you guys, we're celebrating a decade together.

[Paul Castle]

Yes.

[Host 1]

Gotta do something special.

[Matthew]

Yeah. We're like, oh, this is our tenth. This together. Oh, this is the tenth.

[Paul Castle]

And it's our golden. It's our golden because it was June 10th.

[Matthew]

Oh, I don't know.

[Paul Castle]

It's June 10th. It's 10 years together. And then we just got a call. We're going somewhere special, but it's.

[Matthew]

Right.

[Paul Castle]

Can we talk about it? We can't talk about it.

[Host 1]

It's a secret.

[Matthew]

It's a secret.

[Paul Castle]

It's a secret. It's not official, but it's gonna be cool.

[Host 1]

Okay. You have to tell us about it.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, yeah, we'll tell you after.

[Host 2]

I have to ask. Is it true that Mr. Maple is going into retirement?

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

No.

[Matthew]

He is.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

It's kind of young before him, or a guide dog, but he started to slow down a lot, and it's kind of indicating. He's very. He's perfect in harness. Like, he's a. He knows exactly what to do. He makes no mistakes. But he's kind of indicating that he prefers to sleep in the sun.

[Host 2]

Does he have any big plans for Tyrant?

[Matthew]

Well, he'll become my dog.

[Paul Castle]

Matthew's excited about that.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

You know, so we'll keep him. We'll have the younger Fresh guy dog. It'll be fun.

[Paul Castle]

Little sibling. I guess so.

[Matthew]

It'll be really cute to have, I think, two dogs because I think a lot of the time he wants someone to play with, you know, someone to play tug with.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I have heard before that, like, dogs are totally different with their harness on.

[Paul Castle]

Oh, totally.

[Host 2]

Harness off.

[Matthew]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Which has blown my mind. Until our dog got trained, because I was like, oh, how could a dog know when they're working?

[Host 1]

Which, by the way, we named our dog Pretzel after naming our dog after. After the show in Dark, which is about a blind person. Oh, I know.

[Paul Castle]

Yes. Murphy. Yes. I've watched episodes of it.

[Host 1]

Such a good show.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, it probably doesn't.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I was gonna ask, how does that show. I don't know that.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

How does it depict blindliness? Is it pretty not accurate?

[Paul Castle]

Oh, I love how they depict it. Because she's not totally blind. She has some vision, right?

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

Do you guys. Is this true? Right? She's not total. She's not a total.

[Host 1]

I'm trying to remember if she is or not.

[Paul Castle]

I don't think so.

[Host 1]

It's been. We watched that video.

[Host 2]

I know that phrase when we watched it. So.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Matthew]

Paul's least favorite is, like, Daredevil, where the blind person has superhuman abilities.

[Host 1]

Well, this is a rope.

[Paul Castle]

This is a trope I've been combating my whole life.

[Host 1]

What is the trope? Yeah, wait.

[Paul Castle]

The trope is typically when there's a blind character, they're like, it's. They always have some superpower. They're always sort of like. Because they. It's like going in the opposite direction. Rather than showing a person with a disability who's struggling, it's like, show them with a disability and they have, like, kung fu ninja skills, and they're so cool, and they're, like, one step ahead of everybody else.

[Host 2]

I say you run with that, but, like, it's inspiring. Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

It's certainly not a bad thing. But after a while, as the blind community's like, I feel so. Like, I could never reach this level of what's being represented for me, you know, like, as someone. Actually, I want the most realistic version. I want to see them make the mistakes like, I do.

[Host 1]

Has anybody for real come up to you? Been like, so you have super hearing?

[Paul Castle]

Oh, all the time. That's not. You asked ironically, and it's, like, a very common question, actually.

[Matthew]

But the truth, like, can you echolocate? People ask if you can echo true. Can you do the little clicking?

[Paul Castle]

I click sometimes just to Freak people out. But there is some truth to it. There is some. It's not super hearing, but when you do lose one of your senses, your brain just puts the attention and energy on some of the other ones to compensate. And it's not like I have more. I'm just maybe more focused on it than you're Right. You know, more tuned into it.

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Paul Castle]

So there's some truth to it.

[Host 2]

Okay. I'm curious if there's any other show or book or like anything you're like that is just totally not realistic.

[Paul Castle]

What's interesting too is about in the Dark is when I was. I was made aware of it because there was this article, the New York Times did an article about how this person isn't blind and probably shouldn't be.

[Host 2]

Oh, yeah.

[Paul Castle]

Presenting the character. They should get somebody who has at least some visual limitations because that was like the conversation at the time, like actors, you know, and that.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

What's your. Wait, what's your take? I'm actually so curious what your take is on that.

[Paul Castle]

Oh my God. Am I gonna get in trouble?

[Matthew]

Yeah, you're gonna get in trouble. I'm gonna share your take.

[Paul Castle]

So I shouldn't say anything? No. Because like my take, it's nuanced.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Paul Castle]

I think we can go too far with the. Only somebody with this disability can play those parts. But I do want to illuminate the conversation at least a little bit. And here's. Here's the. Here's why that conversation happens to begin with. So they'll say there are working actors out there like me. Say I wanted to be a working actor. Well, I have tiny bit of vision. It's going to be very difficult for me to land roles of sighted people. Probably won't get those.

[Matthew]

Right.

[Paul Castle]

Because I'm going to need a guide dog or a cane or something. So I might then be limited only to the roles like in the Dark. Right. Where it's actually a blind character and I can play that because, you know, so if this sighted, able bodied actors are coming in and taking the only roles that I could even have a chance of getting, it does seem a little unfair to the community of actors with disabilities.

[Matthew]

Right?

[Host 1]

Totally.

[Paul Castle]

Yet at the same time, I am a big movie buff, film cinephile, whatever you want to call me. I love movies and I like to critique movies and critique performances. I'm like, at the end of the day is really go to the person who gives the best performance because that's what great storytelling is really about. That's good, right? And I would hope that those blind people get a really fair chance in their showing up. And the casting directors are seeking out the people with disabilities and saying, hey, this is what we want.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

So that's. That's where the nuance is. I'm not gonna boycott the show.

[Host 1]

Totally. We met her. She was actually super nice.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

We just randomly ran into her at Disneyland.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And this was, like, five years ago.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

We have a picture with her. We should put the picture up.

[Host 2]

She's, like, way taller than me. Like, everyone is, but about a foot taller.

[Host 1]

But I agree with your answer. I think that's. I mean, not that I really. I'm glad that you answered it because you're actually someone with a disability talking about that actual issue. But I think I like your take. I really like your take a lot.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So you wouldn't want that niche or that to be the expectation in casting to the point where they're not represented, where it's like, okay, we can't find someone to fill this role or that's auditioning for this. So then it comes at the cost of not representing those disabilities.

[Paul Castle]

That was my other. I wanted to say that because it's like, at the end of the day, what's more important? We have this pool of actors that are struggling to find. Okay, yeah, I understand. I have sympathy for that. But the. The person in that role playing Murphy is now representing something and educating all the audience members and all the people watching are getting to learn about it, and that's incredibly valuable.

[Host 2]

She did a really good job.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

And I know she had people that. With blindness helping her and coaching her.

[Host 1]

For anybody super confused about in the Dark. Pretzel and the Dark is a show on Netflix that came out in 2020 about a blind person that is solving a crime. It's like a crime show. It's really good. I like. I think season one was epic. My personal take is season two is not very good.

[Paul Castle]

Often the case we've been having this conversation. Why does this keep happening to show every great show?

[Host 2]

I felt bad for the actors. Season script for this was just.

[Host 1]

Oh, I don't think it was the actors at all. I think there's. And again, what do I know?

[Host 2]

They turned it into a soap opera opera.

[Host 1]

Yeah. It kind of. It kind of went into soap opera territory, and the actors were so good in season one. So I feel like there was something behind the scenes and it lost the

[Host 2]

motivation because it was her friend. This is so niche. We're going off.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

Sometimes if they solve the problem in season,

[Paul Castle]

you lost the motivation.

[Host 2]

And I think motivation, it drives any good story. You have to have. You have to believe that the characters are actually willing to do what they're doing.

[Host 1]

That's the problem with, you know, Hollywood these days is they see. They see money and they're like, oh, let's keep making more scenes. Reasons.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

That's the problem.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

Too many.

[Paul Castle]

Too many happens.

[Host 2]

That's the singular problem.

[Paul Castle]

What we're gonna solve Hollywood. I think we're gonna. With this conversation, I feel like we should start our own studio.

[Matthew]

Yes.

[Paul Castle]

Our own production company.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

Mr. Call it Mr. Maple and Pretzel.

[Host 1]

Oh.

[Matthew]

Oh, we're getting a stretch.

[Paul Castle]

He's like, I'm CEO.

[Host 2]

How old is Mr. Maple?

[Paul Castle]

He's just turned seven. And so. Oh, you're just shedding all over the place for us.

[Host 2]

Oh, we don't care.

[Paul Castle]

You probably know about that.

[Host 2]

No.

[Paul Castle]

Our dog sheds a lot.

[Matthew]

Yes. Yes.

[Host 1]

No, actually just recently, I've started noticing hair all over my clothes that age.

[Matthew]

I was.

[Paul Castle]

I think I'm covered.

[Host 1]

Yeah, she's. She's getting older, and so I think

[Host 2]

when she's a puppy stayed better than this adult.

[Host 1]

There wasn't as much shedding at first.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

Oh, my gosh. They call it blowing out. Like it's the blowout season. But, I mean, he does it, like, every month. He blows out that undercoat. It just, like, all over the place, but I can't see it. But I have a husband who reminds me. It's there constantly.

[Host 2]

No, it's our car that shows pretzels.

[Host 1]

I saw it on the seat. I just picked.

[Host 2]

It doesn't come out.

[Host 1]

Yeah, it's. It is.

[Matthew]

We do not let Maple on the seats for that reason. We have a dog bed that he.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, he's got his own bed.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Matthew]

Yeah. In the dog bed in the car. Yeah. So there's a little. But it's still. It spills over.

[Host 2]

Did you. Have you met your new dog?

[Paul Castle]

No. Oh, so they kind of. Well, because the. Well, first of all, I want to say that guide dogs typically retire between 8 and 9 and labs a little younger. So 8 is the typical time. So he's a bit of a little bit of an early retire. But I was just accepted for my successor dog, the second dog. They call it the successor, not the replacement, because Maple can't be replaced.

[Host 2]

I love that.

[Paul Castle]

But I was approved for that. And the wait list is like a year to a year and a half. And so this was at the beginning of the year, so we're probably looking at the end of this year, even into the beginning of 2027. So he'll be pretty close to eight years old. But the reason we chose to share the journey, because we were almost like, let's not even talk about it until I know I'm gonna go down and get my second dog. But I wanted people to see also that a person with a disability and a service animal has to think about these things well ahead of time

[Host 1]

and

[Paul Castle]

really has to recognize the signs. And he and I are so gelled. You know, I just, like, sense his enthusiasm and interest around guide work starting to dwindle and wane. And it's just like his energy level decreasing enough that I was like, I don't want to push him harder than he wants to go. But he. I also want to be able to go faster and be able to do all the things that I can do while I'm still young. And so it's like, if he's telling me, like, yeah, I'm not into that. I kind of want to chill. Do I still run?

[Matthew]

Yeah, only on a treadmill.

[Paul Castle]

Well, and even that's a little tricky for me, but I do. I do run on a treadmill, but not. I had to give up. You know, when I ran the marathon, I ran with a guy tethered to me.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

Shoelace between them. Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

We had a shoelace on our wrists. Do it yourself.

[Host 2]

Wait, a person.

[Paul Castle]

It was a person.

[Matthew]

Actual person, not a dog. And it went really well until they got to the.

[Paul Castle]

Do that.

[Matthew]

The stand where they were handing out bananas to the runners.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

That was a big. That was tricky because people were eating

[Matthew]

the bananas and throwing the pills, and

[Paul Castle]

I was at the back of the. Okay. The reason I was at the back is because the only person I could convince to run the marathon with me is, like, five foot one.

[Host 1]

Okay. Is that not terrifying, though, running a marathon where you can. All you see is, like, a little tiny speck of vision, and you're just like, all right, hopefully I don't hit anything. Like, well.

[Paul Castle]

But she was letting me know, like, she was, like, calling everything out. She's a good friend of mine. And she was, like, you know, we were, like, really in sync. And we practiced doing this a lot beforehand. But like Matthew said, they gave. They handed out bananas to all the marathon runners. Like, the volunteers were, like, handing out, literally. So by the time I reached the banana zone.

[Host 2]

That feels like a card sleep.

[Paul Castle]

It was a cartoon, Abby. It was a cartoon. There was thousands of bananas on the street. It was Mario Kart. We are slipping and falling. She's calling out. She's pulling me this way. She's slipping. I'm holding her up. And we're just trying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we got through this like mine. Field of bananas.

[Host 2]

That's a really great friend you have.

[Matthew]

Yeah, she's wonderful. Yeah. We.

[Paul Castle]

We did not come in last place. I will say that. And I feel good about it, but my pinky toenail fell off. That's all I lost.

[Matthew]

Do, do people run with their guide dogs? Do you know of anybody?

[Paul Castle]

I've never heard of that. I wouldn't be surprised if it. I wouldn't. I wouldn't think a marathon. Like, that's an incredible.

[Matthew]

I mean, we know people who hike with their guide dogs.

[Host 2]

Oh, yeah.

[Paul Castle]

Oh, but like you, they. I did a rod. All those huskies pulling sleds, I believe.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I know nothing. Well, okay, here's my other question. I had no idea actually about this process of getting a guide dog. Can you kind of walk people that don't know that?

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Like you apply for a dog and they've like trained this dog up for.

[Matthew]

Yep.

[Paul Castle]

Yep.

[Host 2]

How long does it take to train?

[Matthew]

Well, the dogs at eight weeks are given. They're raised at guidex for the blind. They're born there.

[Host 1]

They.

[Matthew]

They're part of a colony of specific dogs that they are breeding for very exact characteristics. So their best dogs actually just enter in that. Enter that program so that they can have the best.

[Host 2]

And it's multiple different breeds. It's not just labs, it's mostly labs.

[Matthew]

Some golden retrievers, but like maybe 80

[Paul Castle]

labs, a lot of labs. Labs are really trainable because they love food.

[Matthew]

So from zero to eight weeks, they're like held every day. They have puppy cuddlers who come in every day. So they're very accustomed to people very accustomed to being held. They practiced already having them walk over different surfaces because that's very important. The dog that doesn't go around greats or won't refuse to walk over different surfaces.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah. And then can't be afraid of that.

[Matthew]

At eight weeks, they're given to volunteer puppy raiser families. So Maple was handed off to a 15 year old boy in Salt Lake City who was going to high school but wanted to raise a puppy guide dog. And he and his family raised Mr. Maple and they had him for. It's usually about a year. And they have a big puppy manual. They're the ones that like, are teaching the dogs not to bark and to do the. All the Basic commands like sit, stay, heal, lay down. They have them interact and with the public, socialize.

[Host 2]

That's awesome.

[Matthew]

They'll arrange for them to, like, take them into, you know, to concerts and. Oh, yeah. And all kinds of things. So there's lots of activities and then.

[Paul Castle]

And they only wear like a little Velcro vest.

[Matthew]

It's a green Velcro vest for guide dogs for the blind.

[Paul Castle]

And. And that, that's actually how it starts. Because you were making that point about how do they know they're working and not. So it starts as puppies. They put on these little Velcro vests, and then that's when they get trained, all the things. And then they take the vest off and it's just be a little puppy.

[Matthew]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then after that year, they go back to guidance guides, Dogs for the blind. And then there's six months of professional training. Well, with a guide dog.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

Handler.

[Paul Castle]

Three to six.

[Matthew]

Three to six.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah. It can be short.

[Matthew]

And that's when they learn all the guiding skills. That's when they get the harness put on. They learn to do traffic and crosswalks and curbs and.

[Paul Castle]

But only 30 ish percent of the dogs make it to graduation because it's so rigorous. And not every dog is cut out for it. And they can kind of like, like flunk out. They call them flunkies or they. Well, technically they say career changed.

[Host 1]

Career change.

[Matthew]

So Maple's one of eight brothers. He and only one other actually made it all the way to guide dogs. Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

All boys.

[Host 1]

Great job.

[Host 2]

It's very serious. It's like they're their owner or handler. Their lives are on the line.

[Paul Castle]

Yep.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And that makes sense.

[Host 1]

Makes me wonder, as someone that's financially conscious, what does that cost? What does a guide dog cost?

[Paul Castle]

It cost nothing for me because most of the organizations I know is shocking. Right. Because so much time, money goes into them. But if you were to go through Guide Dogs for the Blind like I did, it's the largest guide dog organization in North America. They've been doing it for 80 plus years. They have like 2,500 working teams out there at any given time. But there's always new ones starting and retiring. And they cover the cost of the dog completely. So it costs you nothing, including every vet bill for the life of the dog, even after they retire.

[Host 1]

That's incredible.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

The only thing you have to cover is the food.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Okay. Okay.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, they do want you to do that. So that. Yeah, it's a very small amount, really.

[Matthew]

But they say the dogs are worth between sixty and a hundred thousand dollars. That's how much when you get to them.

[Host 2]

Wow. Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

Right around there. So it's like having a luxury car.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 2]

So they themselves cover the cost of this organization to help.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

It's a non profit organization and wow. Relies on donations, so that's incredible.

[Host 2]

Donations. Okay.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, donations.

[Matthew]

We do fundraisers for them several times a year. Just so grateful.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Podcast.

[Paul Castle]

They're an incredible organization. They do so many great things. So we talk about them a lot and we do fundraisers and that'd be so great. If you link them. That would. Yeah.

[Host 1]

Wait, we should link them. So the.

[Matthew]

The official guide dogs dot com.

[Host 1]

Guide dogs dot com. That's all it is.

[Paul Castle]

That's all it is.

[Host 1]

Nonprofit, based in America. Yeah, Somewhere.

[Paul Castle]

It's based in Northern California.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah. The headquarters is in San Rafael, but they have a second campus in Port Oregon where I. Where I trained with Maple. Because it's a two week training. Once they called me and this is what I'm waiting for to answer your question. Have I met the new one? I won't know until it's like two weeks. Like pack your bags, come down to one of the campuses.

[Matthew]

We have a dog.

[Paul Castle]

We have a dog for you. They can't tell you anything about it until you get there. And it's a total surprise. But they, they have like professional panel of people that like look at all of the things going on in your life, your age, your, your activity level, your pace, all the demands, etc, where you live. And then they match the perfect dog to that.

[Host 1]

And so you have a two week training program and then I. With your dog to learn. That way you can just be in sync.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

And I live on campus. Yeah. And family can't come. They want no family interference because families tend to get too involved.

[Matthew]

We'll help. We'll want to help. We can't. Yeah, it's you and the dog.

[Host 2]

You got a job when you got to take Maple on a spa. Vegas.

[Matthew]

Maple and I will go to Hawaii

[Host 1]

without Mexico.

[Paul Castle]

No, we took him there.

[Host 2]

Really?

[Paul Castle]

Because one of his brothers, we said his eight, his seven brothers, Major marathon Mikey, mascot Matrix, Murdoch and Madrid. And one of them, Mikey, is a service dog at the oncology ward. He's a therapy dog on the oncology ward at the Honolulu hospital. And we reunited them last year.

[Host 1]

That's really sweet.

[Paul Castle]

And they recognized each other. They hadn't seen since they were eight weeks old.

[Host 2]

I'm gonna cry.

[Host 1]

Did you vlog? That was beautiful.

[Paul Castle]

Yes, it was incredible.

[Matthew]

And it was really hard. I mean, it was difficult to get Maple in. There's a lot of paperwork. There's a lot of things to go through.

[Host 2]

He's probably got a lot of certifications, though, that make it.

[Matthew]

I think what helped was when we walked into the quarantine area, everybody there recognized him. They wanted pictures with Maple.

[Paul Castle]

They knew who he was.

[Host 1]

That's cool.

[Paul Castle]

And they were like, yeah, I mean, he.

[Matthew]

We did everything correctly. He had all. Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

After that, we didn't have to do any of it.

[Host 2]

That's sweet.

[Matthew]

So, yeah, that was really cool. And. And yeah, so two. He and one other. Our guide dogs. There's two facility dogs. The one at the oncology ward, Major is a working therapy dog at a high school. So he goes to school with the comforts the students. Psychologist and comforts the students. And then two others were canine buddies, which is for children. It's like a pre guide dog. They don't really guide you, but they can kind of be there with the child to help.

[Paul Castle]

Like training wheels for guide dogs for kids that aren't ready for the full guide dog.

[Matthew]

And I think the last two are pets now.

[Paul Castle]

The last two are pets. Sometimes they choose just to be pets.

[Host 1]

Has Maple ever saved your life? Has it been twice? Twice?

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

What are the two. What are the stories?

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, well, both of them were downtown Seattle and there's this crazy intersection. They both happen pretty nearby to each other. And there's this thing that they teach the. The guide dogs, which really differentiates them from any other service animal. And this one is one that will flunk another dog. Like they'll career change if they can't do this one thing. It's called intelligent disobedience. So they're obviously trained to listen to every command. Right immediately forward, left, right, etc. Etc. And that is like, that's where they get the reward. This is what they do. They follow your command. But if they know there's danger that you can't see, they will disobey you. They, you know, because they know what's best in that situation. So he's like overrides my command. And there's been two times we're crossing the street and a car came whizzing through. I think it was like an electric car both times because I didn't hear it. A red light and Maple. Then I was like just stepping into the street. And he turns his whole body and pushes his body up against my legs with all his force to pushes you backwards. And the Car just, like, feel the wind. And I was, like, stunned for a second. I was. It happened so close to home. I came home, and I was like, Matthew, I was still like, I almost died. Maple just saved our lives. And if I had had my cane, the cane isn't gonna do that for me just like that.

[Host 1]

So you probably take Maple with you everywhere. You probably don't ever just rely on the cane.

[Paul Castle]

Oh, never. Not in downtown Seattle.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Maple saved your life before.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

That's incredible.

[Paul Castle]

100.

[Host 2]

What was the other.

[Host 1]

What's the second story?

[Paul Castle]

It was the same thing. Basically the same thing. Another car three blocks, three blocks down, you know?

[Matthew]

But not the same day.

[Paul Castle]

Not the same day. No, not the same day, but, like, just the same situation. Him pushing me back from a. From a car that was not paying attention or not following traffic laws. Yeah.

[Host 1]

That's really cool.

[Host 2]

Did Mr. Maple come with his name?

[Paul Castle]

He did. He came as a Maple, and we call him Mr.

[Host 2]

Maple because the whole family has M's.

[Matthew]

Yeah. Yeah. They were an M litter. So every litter is assigned a letter.

[Host 2]

And they're all boys.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

I don't know what was up with.

[Paul Castle]

I don't know what the odds are of that. That this is totally random. Yeah. But we've been reuniting him with his brother 50 times.

[Host 2]

Seven.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

Okay. Is that what the odds are?

[Host 2]

Don't ask.

[Paul Castle]

I was like, wow, Abby, you're good.

[Host 2]

No idea. No, this is what I said before. Don't have me do trivia. My brain.

[Host 1]

Is there a misconception people have about guide dogs? Something that's common.

[Paul Castle]

Oh, yeah.

[Matthew]

So many.

[Paul Castle]

The biggest one is they're not a gps.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Paul Castle]

Okay. A lot of people think, like, how do they get you places? I mean, Maple doesn't know where I'm heading. I can't be like, take me to Starbucks, and he'll just take me to a Starbucks. How is he gonna know now if we go to that location all the time and we're heading in that direction? Of course he picks up on it and he can figure it out. And there's a few places that we go where, like, I barely have to. To give him any commands. He knows.

[Matthew]

Yeah, yeah. If he's been somewhere once, he has an amazing memory. If you're kind of headed in a direction and he figures out, oh, we've been here before, then he will take Paul there. He will even, like, we'll. We'll pass a door that Paul went into once at some restaurant.

[Paul Castle]

He's outed me if I. Oh, yeah.

[Matthew]

He'll like pull right up to it. And Paul's like, well, thank you very much, but today we're not going there. We're going, we're going to keep going.

[Paul Castle]

So, yeah, Matthew's like, when were you at that bakery?

[Host 2]

When did you get down?

[Paul Castle]

Never mind. And, and, and the, the misconception being that I have nothing to do with the guiding because as a blind person, you really are a team. You and your dog become a team. So you're working to each other's strength. So I really do have to know where I'm going. So that means counting blocks and understanding where I am and orienting myself and having that basic mobility and orientation of my own. And then the dog and I can work, work together to each other's strengths.

[Host 1]

There was a story I heard from your platform about you being denied an Uber. Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

Oh yeah, that happened many times.

[Host 1]

That's happened more than once?

[Matthew]

Yes.

[Paul Castle]

How many times now? Maybe eight times.

[Matthew]

Five, six, seven.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, we're getting up there.

[Host 1]

Does Uber have a function where you can say, I have a guide dog, I have a service animal.

[Matthew]

Oh yeah.

[Host 1]

And the driver I'm guessing is notified that. But then they show, they show up

[Matthew]

and they just, they're not notified till they show up.

[Host 1]

Oh, okay.

[Matthew]

To stop drivers from turning them down.

[Host 1]

Because I don't. This is, I mean.

[Host 2]

Oh, that's a good thing to have. But then it can backfire, backf fires a lot.

[Host 1]

Because that, okay. Not that, you know, we're very. Yeah. We're like, none of us are blind. We don't have a guide dog. But one time, one time because of our kids.

[Paul Castle]

Oh my God, no.

[Host 1]

The Uber pulls up. We ordered an Uber, like xxl, like the biggest one you could get. And he's like, no, no, no, no. Drives off, drives off. Because he saw us with two kids and car seats. Yes. So I guess Uber, some of these Uber drivers are just like, no, nonsense. They're not.

[Host 2]

Isn't for me.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

That is crazy.

[Host 2]

I mean, it changed the ride.

[Paul Castle]

Did you report it?

[Host 1]

Abby did.

[Host 2]

Well, no, I just said I wanted a refund cuz he was. I said, well, can you show me in the app how I can get assigned a different driver? I don't have to cancel this cuz I'm going to lose whatever. Yeah, like, and he said no.

[Paul Castle]

And I was like, okay, I just

[Matthew]

won't, we won't cancel the ride. They can drive off, but I won't, I'll, I'll wait till they cancel it cuz I'm Like, I'm not going to cancel it and you.

[Host 2]

Oh, so you just have to wait.

[Matthew]

And they know that they can't take another ride till they cancel. So it's just a waiting game.

[Host 2]

So I just asked her, how long

[Host 1]

do you have to wait for them to cancel?

[Matthew]

Everyone's counseled within like, I don't know, maybe the longest was three minutes. They want their next job.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Host 2]

They have a feature where you can't like be discriminated upon basically because of your disability.

[Paul Castle]

They try to cut down.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So then they don't tell them until they show up. But then they decide on their own. Then they're also surprised.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

It seems like there's gotta be a better system.

[Host 1]

Do they have any, any like robo taxis or waymos in Seattle right now?

[Matthew]

Not yet. We're supposed to get them coming soon.

[Host 1]

Okay. Yeah, because we. We've got it here and it's great.

[Host 2]

Like it's just kids did waymos to high school.

[Host 1]

I'm getting used to it. Yeah. But you just see cars.

[Paul Castle]

Crazy.

[Host 1]

Just in Phoenix, everywhere. There's nobody in the driver's seat.

[Matthew]

Oh, yeah.

[Paul Castle]

I think that's so interesting.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Paul Castle]

I'm waiting for that because it's like, you know, self driving. I'm all about it. Because I can't drive a car. I want to just jump in a car and let it take me somewhere.

[Host 2]

Seriously. I mean, I think about for women and children, like if my kid was getting. I'd much rather my kid get in a driverless.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Actually that sounds crazy to say.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

When you really think about it. But like with no adults, it feels

[Paul Castle]

a little safer, doesn't it? Yeah, it does.

[Host 2]

That's crazy. That's why people let their kids take them to high school.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Wait, what are we doing? Okay, we're. We're in the presence of an author right now. Tell us. We need to hear more about these books. So we've talked a little bit about the Internet troll. Which of your books. You've written a lot of children's books. Which one is your favorite?

[Paul Castle]

Well, my favorite would be the first one. It's Pringle and Finn.

[Host 1]

Okay. Pringle.

[Paul Castle]

Because it was inspired by our wedding. So that's how it all started. Because I've always dreamed of illustrating children's books. But Pringle and Finn are Matthew and Paul. That's our surrogate. And just like they are on that wedding cake on the COVID of the book. We had little figurines like that on our wedding cake in Mexico.

[Matthew]

Paul Illustrated them. Because when it was time to set out, send out our wedding invitations, he's like, we need to take a photo. I'm like, I don't want to take another photo of myself ever again.

[Host 1]

You signed it for our kids. That's so.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, I signed them all.

[Matthew]

But instead of telling him that I didn't want to take a photo because I knew I'd get a little pushback, I was like, well, what if you illustrated us? Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

Because I was like, I'll get out of the photo. He didn't want to do another photo shoot. I will bite at that.

[Paul Castle]

He hates photo shoots, by the way. Remember, Instagram used to be all photos.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Matthew]

We're so glad that day is there. He's so happy.

[Paul Castle]

And if you watch our content, it's 99. Present him holding the camera.

[Matthew]

Yeah, he's very happy with that. I love this. And so Paul did. He. He sent me the Pringle and Finn, and he's like, how about these? On our. On our invitations?

[Paul Castle]

And he's like, which one is me? I was like, the taller one. He's like, he looks kind of fat. I was like, matthew, it's a penguin.

[Matthew]

So Paul quickly shot me back a text message where he drew abs on the.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, I gave him an eight pack, but not. We didn't put that on the invitation.

[Matthew]

And then when the pandemic hit and there was, like, very little for us to do, I said to Paul, I was like, why don't you write a book? He's like, which book should I write? And I was like, well, Pringle and Finn are really popular with her followers. Why don't you write that story? So that's the first. It's about teammates. They are imperfect. They make lots of mistakes, but the repeated line is, but they made a great team, which we really feel is what makes a good relationship.

[Host 1]

It's good to.

[Paul Castle]

And obviously, it's inclusive because you got two brides. They deliver wedding cakes. So there's two brides, there's two groom weddings, there's bridegroom weddings, and then they get married at the end. Spoiler alert.

[Host 1]

That's what it happen.

[Paul Castle]

And that's sort of how the whole journey began. And so, obviously, it's a very special book for me because I couldn't have done it without Matthew. He is my number one teammate, encourager, believer in me and helping me with the technology. And, like, how am I gonna. Like. Because I was at the point where I. I stopped painting because I couldn't see the canvas anymore. I stopped working my art. I was like, what am I gonna do? Because the vision was getting so bad. And he was like, you know, people are. A lot of artists are using tablets now, so let's look into that. Let's get you an iPad.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

And, like, you know, set me up with that. And that's how I've been able to create these books with the follow up

[Matthew]

was the Secret ingredient, where they deliver birthday cakes, and at the end, they deliver it to their own daughter's birthday cake. So it's kind of a. An adoption story.

[Host 1]

Oh, so this is an adoption story. So as. So maybe a kid who's, like, understanding adoption could read this.

[Paul Castle]

Totally.

[Host 1]

Ah. That's how adoption works.

[Matthew]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host 1]

And you're using. And it's through penguins and, like, these cute little.

[Paul Castle]

And lots of animals. And there's different families in there. There's two mom families, two dad families as well.

[Host 1]

That's sweet.

[Paul Castle]

Mom, dad families. And I just wanted to make sure that everybody was represented, because for me, that was the impetus for all of my creations is like, how am I bringing something different to this, The. The. The world of children's literature? Because it's like, you know, I have a lot of ideas, and it's fun to write a cute book, but I want to write a book that feels meaningful to me. And as a kid who grew up with a disability and knowing that I was gay and wasn't comfortable coming out and all of that confusion, I felt like it was important to me to create books that felt inclusive and represented different types of families. Because we know two mom family, two, you know, moms and two dads who have kids and are raising kids, and they're like, we want books that show that.

[Host 1]

Totally.

[Paul Castle]

So our kids can see themselves in the books.

[Host 1]

Totally.

[Paul Castle]

So I was like, I need to do that.

[Host 1]

That makes me think of when the Disney movie Princess and the Frog came out.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Because that was the first time that. That, you know, little girls of color were able to see a princess that looked like them.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

That's just like. I don't know.

[Paul Castle]

It's powerful.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Especially if you're a part of a minority group. You know, you want to be able to see yourself represented.

[Paul Castle]

So that's cool.

[Host 1]

That's really cool. And I think the artwork. I mean, even seeing. I forget the. The. Maybe it was, like, on your TikTok. I can't remember if it was YouTube, but just like, the.

[Host 2]

Your.

[Host 1]

Your artistic abilities are so good.

[Paul Castle]

Oh, my gosh. Thanks.

[Host 1]

And you can clearly see that in the book. So I just think it's really cool that you've been able to keep, you know, using that ability, even with your. Your. Your vision, you know, with. With the vision problems you've had. Like, that's just so cool that you continue to create and do what you love and adapt.

[Paul Castle]

I never thought I would. I never thought I would at this point, but it's only because of technology that's really allowed me to do it. Like just having the screen and being able to manipulate things, like with the brightness and the zooming. But I have never seen a pic, an entire picture with my own eyes.

[Matthew]

One of your own illustrations.

[Paul Castle]

I can't see any of those illustrations in total. I only can see a little piece at a time apart.

[Host 1]

So when you're looking at, like, hold something up. Yeah, let me hold up. Okay.

[Paul Castle]

I can just see.

[Host 1]

Let's hold up the book.

[Paul Castle]

Okay.

[Host 1]

The COVID of the Secret Ingredient.

[Paul Castle]

So I'm looking at the COVID and I look up and I can see the little girl. The little girl penguin with the bow in her hair. And I can see nothing else on the COVID And I can look down. Oh, and I see another penguin. And then I look down and he's got a bow tie. And then I look down at the bottom and I'm like, oh, there's a little. There's like the alligator character. So I'm scanning. It's like looking. It's like a computer scanner that's taking in all of it. And then I've always been able to, like, picture things fully in my mind's eye.

[Matthew]

Yeah. I once asked Paul on the iPad because he can shrink and expand the images to fit into his site. And I was like, shrink down one of your pages so that you can see the whole thing. And it got so tiny that it was like, well, okay, so you can see the whole page now, but you can't make out what's there.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, it's like very fuzzy, obviously. It's like. So that's the. The trade off. But I can see the composition from. From an artist perspective. I can create the. The composition of the page. But it's very blurry, obviously. I don't know. I don't have crispness or clarity. And then I can blow it up and see it up really close. So that's how I do it. But I trust Matthew is my art director. He's art directed everything I have done, and so I trust his valuable opinion. He sits down with the red pen, going through every single process.

[Host 1]

You work as A team. You're the editor. You're like. You're like, this is a good enough, enough. Go back to the draw.

[Paul Castle]

He is blunt. There is no gentleness. We've had. You've come a long way because you actually will lead with something nice. Occasionally.

[Matthew]

I try to remember that.

[Host 1]

Sensitive. I feel convicted right now. I give blunt feedback. I need. I'm working on it.

[Host 2]

We work together too.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Paul Castle]

What's that like, guys, we've been working.

[Host 2]

We're in therapy.

[Host 1]

Yeah, we're there.

[Paul Castle]

You live and work with your spouse in this dynamic. It's beautiful in so many ways, but it's so hard to do.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I feel like we have actually just kind of learned actually how to separate tasks. We're like, it's better this way.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

Yeah, you do. You learn to, like, find each other's strengths. And then.

[Host 2]

And now it's not a conflict really. But for a while that was like a back and forth thing.

[Host 1]

Yeah. You can't trash talk your business partner

[Paul Castle]

when it's your spouse, you know, take it somewhere else. But I find, and I'm sure you relate to this, but at a point, certain, certain point, it's like, when do you turn off the colleague work mind? Like when you go out for dinner. Can we not talk about work?

[Matthew]

That's hard. No, we can't.

[Paul Castle]

We have a really hard time.

[Host 1]

Sorry.

[Host 2]

We make rules. We can't talk about the kids or work if we're on a date.

[Paul Castle]

What do you even talk about?

[Host 1]

Especially when, like, your work is the Roman Empire, when you do what you love and so like the hobby of it and your art all gets mixed up into one and I don't know, like, I'm adhd, so I'll get hyper focused on something and it's all I want to talk about. And usually it's work. So it's like, gotta shut that.

[Paul Castle]

That off, Right?

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Matthew]

The other day we were on a walk, we do an evening walk. And Paul was like, okay, so we can't talk about work. And I was just like, silent. Oh, no. News, news. What's. What's in the news? Okay. And we struggled.

[Paul Castle]

We do struggle because it's.

[Matthew]

It.

[Paul Castle]

Because like you said, it's a passion too. So it's, It's. It takes over every corner of your life. And we love what we do. And like, we're, you know, we're the. We're entrepreneurs. We created this whole business. If we stop, the whole thing can stop. Right? There's not somebody else making it go

[Host 1]

and you're self publishing, which is really impressive. It's not like you have somebody that's helping with the distribution necessarily. You're doing that all on your own.

[Paul Castle]

Yes.

[Host 1]

And so it's people that are seeing your content going to your website and then pressing the purchase button, right? Yeah. That's kind of how you make your money.

[Matthew]

And Matthew, and then we have a dedicated, wonderful employee and she goes to into the warehouse and she gets the orders, fulfilling them. And you know, if we running out of books, we have to place the reorders.

[Paul Castle]

And Matthew's brilliant at all that. He is like Mr. Spreadsheets, Mr. Back End. Like, I am just the creative imagination person. Like, don't ask me to like, make any sense of how it's going to become something. I've always said I'm a dreamer, he's a doer. So, like, if that's one piece of advice I give for anybody looking for a relationship, I'm like, if you're a dreamer, find your doer. If you're a doer, find your dreamer. Because you both need each other.

[Host 1]

Are you. So are you like the Steve Wozniak? Steve Wozniak and you're the Steve Jobs?

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Okay, that's cool.

[Matthew]

Probably like, okay, this is my next idea. And I'm like, okay, let's see, how do we make that happen? We need A, B and then C and then D. Yeah, that's cool.

[Host 2]

Yeah, that's really cool.

[Matthew]

We're Pringle and Fin.

[Host 2]

Cute. Great team.

[Host 1]

Any, like, what's been the. What's been the biggest challenge you've faced? Self publishing, Doing this by yourself, you're not kind of just like figuring it out, you know?

[Matthew]

Yeah. Staying restocked, like placing orders and because it comes from overseas, like being able to project and order enough and, you know, we're. We don't have like huge warehouses like a lot of these publishers have, so forecasting, like, sales. Like, there was a time when we were like just completely out because. Because the secret ingredient just caught on and thousands of people were buying it and all of a sudden we're like, whoops, okay, we're out. We don't have anything.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, we've been building the plane while flying it in this regard. Like, we didn't set out to create our own little mini boutique publishing company, but that's essentially what Matthew has done with me. I'm like the sole author, illustrator. He's the guy, you know, he's like, okay, we're going to start a little publishing company. You're the only one producing the books. Hurry up, Paul. Hurry up. We need more books. And you know, there's a lot of challenges, inherent challenges with that. Just figuring out, like Matthew said, like, the stock and like, where to warehouse things and just like the timing and the volatility of social media in general because, like, you can't predict when things are going to go up or down. And then just trying to get into the broader markets. Like, we can't get into the national distribution system, which would allow us to get into traditional bookstores. We can do bookstores on a case by case basis, but we can't get into the distribution system. It's complicated because this is like, we're too small.

[Matthew]

You have to be a bigger publisher.

[Paul Castle]

You have to be bigger.

[Matthew]

You have to be putting out like 10 titles a year or something. Like, it's a lot. I can't do 10 books.

[Paul Castle]

I can't do that. I cannot do that. But we are traditionally published overseas and they take care of all those things for us. So we do have that experience.

[Matthew]

For translations.

[Paul Castle]

For translations, yeah. Yeah. But it's been exciting, I have to say. Like, it's so exciting to learn as you go and figure it out on your own, especially if you have a good teammate. Especially if you're not alone.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

I think it can be so rewarding. The most rewarding way to do it. Yeah.

[Host 1]

I'm, I'm so happy for you guys. I, like, I'm excited to get to read these books to our kids and, and thank you for.

[Paul Castle]

They're the perfect age.

[Host 1]

I know, right?

[Paul Castle]

They're all for like three to seven,

[Host 2]

so when they love animals.

[Paul Castle]

Oh, yes.

[Host 1]

I, Griffin, I, I, I know he wanted to, when he was in here earlier, he really wanted to grab this, like, stuffed animal. But I, I, I'm, you know, thankful that he was able to let us.

[Matthew]

Well, Griffin said he gets the lion man.

[Paul Castle]

I know he took August's because that's the little Leo for August, but Griffin already said it's his, so I don't know what to tell you.

[Host 2]

You'll have to hash that out. Figure that out as I tell them. Sometimes I'm like, solve your own problems.

[Host 1]

Anything else that we haven't touched on that we shouldn't touch on before we wrap up? Wanted to make sure I think we're good.

[Paul Castle]

So awesome.

[Host 1]

I know. I felt like we laughed and we cry. Like we had, like, every range of emotion. Yeah.

[Paul Castle]

I mean, that was a journey.

[Host 1]

That was a great conversation. You guys are so good. I like you're so, like, on top of it, just with the storytelling. And there were times I'm like, I want to ask a question. Then you covered it.

[Host 2]

Like, you got like.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, well, we've all been doing this for a while, you know, we kind of know. But it's really fun to sit down with people that we have so much in common.

[Matthew]

Another couple that does what we do is rare.

[Paul Castle]

So rare to meet. And thank you for making this so comfortable. Like, you guys are so natural and easy and fun to talk to.

[Matthew]

That's so nice.

[Paul Castle]

I had a really good time.

[Host 2]

Likewise.

[Host 1]

Yeah, same.

[Host 2]

Seriously, thanks for making the journey out here.

[Paul Castle]

Oh, yeah, our pleasure.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Safe travels back to Seattle.

[Paul Castle]

Yeah, we gotta go right to the airport here.

[Matthew]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

What time is your flight?

[Paul Castle]

It's in, like, two hours.

[Host 1]

Oh, my gosh. We're good.

[Paul Castle]

We got time.

[Host 1]

Okay, good. Well, what. Where's the best place for people to

[Matthew]

connect with you online? We're Matthew and Paul. Yeah, Matthew and Paul. Tik tok, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, even Snapchat. We're on Snapchat. I didn't even know that, but apparently we are.

[Host 1]

Yeah, we're everywhere.

[Paul Castle]

Matthew and Paul. And then I also have Paul Castle Studio. But, like, the.

[Matthew]

My Paul.

[Paul Castle]

Castlestudio.com PaulCastlestudio.com is where all my books and plushies are available, as well as, you know, Walmart.com, amazon, all that. They're on there, too.

[Host 1]

The books are on wall in Walmart.

[Paul Castle]

Well, they're on Walmart.com.

[Host 1]

okay.

[Paul Castle]

And we're getting into Target.

[Host 2]

I've heard about, like, their publishing thing.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Very neat.

[Paul Castle]

Okay. Yeah.

[Host 1]

That's big. That's big. Congrats, you guys.

[Paul Castle]

Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Well, thank you so much. And we will have to stay in touch because this was. This was great. It was great talking.

[Paul Castle]

I hope so.

[Host 1]

I hope so.

[Paul Castle]

I really do.