Mark Manson: The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby

Episode: Mark Manson: The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck
Date: January 28, 2026

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode features bestselling author Mark Manson, known for The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck. The conversation centers on the themes of purpose, happiness, self-help culture, relationships, friendships, religion, and meaning in modern life. Mark shares candid perspectives on responsibility, religion, parenthood (and his own decision not to have children), relationships, and how technology and culture are reshaping human connection—interlaced with humor, humility, and his trademark frankness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Happiness, Purpose & Responsibility

• Happiness vs. Purpose:
  • “Happiness is overrated and purpose is underrated. And the thing about purpose is that it's often hard...” (Mark, 01:30)
  • Mark explains that authentic meaning in life comes from making choices and embracing responsibility—often in ways that are uncomfortable or challenging.
• Radical Responsibility:
  • Existentialist philosophy: each of us creates our own meaning and is responsible for our choices, regardless of circumstances.
  • “The meaning of your life is what you make of it. That's intimidating. It's scary because if you make the wrong choices or you prioritize the wrong things, guess whose fault it is? Right. Guess who screwed up.” (Mark, 01:30)

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2. The Disappointment Panda & Truth-Telling

• Origin & Purpose:
  • Disappointment Panda, a recurring character in Mark’s writing, represents uncomfortable truths.
  • “His superpower is he tells people truths that they don't want to hear, but they need to hear.” (Mark, 03:06)
  • Disappointment Panda is Mark’s way to make heavy truths more memorable and approachable. Even fans have gotten tattoos of the character!
• Truths We Don’t Want to Hear:
  • Example: Obsessive striving (like making more money) won’t make you happier or more loved.
  • Mark on writing: Sometimes you have to “go weird” to make dry ideas alive and sticky.

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3. Language, Profanity, and Authenticity

• Profanity in Mark’s Work:
  • The F-word as a “click magnet” and a point of branding, debated with publishers. Ultimately, the “F-bomb” stayed but retailers like Walmart required full censorship on the cover. (08:03-10:24)
  • Mark’s natural linguistic style is casual and profane—relatable and straightforward, but intentionally polarizing.
• Cultural upbringing:
  • Grew up in the Bible Belt; embraced rebelliousness early on, including swearing and even selling drugs as a teen—an inflection point and a source of family stories (12:31-13:54).

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4. Religion, Philosophy & the Human Need for Meaning

• Personal Background:
  • Raised Christian, gravitated to Buddhism as a young adult, now identifies as a “pro-religion atheist” (16:10-17:41).
  • Mark sees religion (of any type) as a psychologically essential structure for many people—and argues that everyone “places their faith in something,” whether that’s politics, materialism, or self-help.
• Community & Rituals:
  • A significant loss in post-religious, modern Western life is the “community” and consistent ritual formerly provided by churches and religious life.
  • “I think about the community that my parents had around them, and I'm frankly, I'm envious. Like, I don't have that in my life, and most people I know our age don't...” (Mark, 18:19)

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5. The Self-Help Industry: A Critique

• Dangers of “Toxic Positivity”:
  • The self-help market perpetuates the myth that happiness is a constant, “always feel good” state—Mark sees this as delusional and even narcissistic.
  • “This idea that you can be perfectly internally validated and never worry about what other people think about you. There's a word for somebody who doesn't care what other people think about them. It's called a psychopath.” (Mark, 20:56)
  • His work intentionally acts as a “middle finger” to typical self-help positivity, advocating for honest self-assessment and acceptance of life’s hardships.

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6. Parenthood, Purpose, and Joy

• On Having Kids:
  • Mark and his wife made peace with being child-free after unsuccessful attempts and health concerns. (29:11)
  • Distinguishes between happiness (fleeting pleasure) and purpose (deep, enduring meaning)—parenthood, he argues, is “the fastest and most direct route to a sense of purpose,” even as it’s exhausting or difficult.
  • “At the end of the day, people crave meaning more than they crave pleasure.” (Mark, 31:31)
• Relation to Depression:
  • Depression is more about absence of meaning/purpose than happiness.
  • “It’s actually a lack of purpose, right? Like, it’s 100%.” (Mark, 32:54)

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7. Friendship, Loneliness & Social Connection

• Why Friendship Matters:
  • Human friendship is an evolutionary solution to risk-sharing and thriving collectively.
  • “Friendship is an unequivocally universally good thing. It's very much hardwired into our nature. We need friends. It’s actually for our mental health...in many ways, it’s more important than a romantic relationship.” (Mark, 40:53)
  • Today’s loneliness epidemic: disrupted by low church attendance, short job tenures, remote work, and relocation.
• Making Friends as Adults:
  • Proximity, exposure, and shared interests are the three most important factors.
  • Adults overestimate “compatibility” and underestimate the power of repeated exposure for building bonds.

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8. Success, Status, and Relationship Complexity

• Measuring Ourselves and Each Other:
  • As people age, their “status” and life choices become externally visible, creating shame, envy, or relational awkwardness in friendships—often when perceived “success measures” diverge among friends. (47:19-48:03)
• Friendships vs. Parenthood—Life Satisfaction:
  • Mark outlines three psychological metrics:
    1. Daily happiness/pleasure – higher for those with active social lives.
    2. Life satisfaction – medium-term, subjective.
    3. Purpose/meaning – deep, often best fulfilled through family, career, religion.
  • “Purpose and meaning is a deeper, longer term thing that it’s really hard to access. I really think it's career, family, religion, and like, the list isn’t much longer than that.” (Mark, 51:41–52:15)

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9. Death, Buddhism, and Perspective

• Early Experiences:
  • Mark was exposed to death frequently in his youth; this shaped his worldview and interest in topics like Buddhism, which addresses mortality head-on. (57:39–59:04)
• Death Practices:
  • Discusses Buddhist “death doula” work—the idea of preparing for and aiding the process of dying as a sacred act.

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10. Marriage, Love & Communication

• Philosophy of Long-Term Relationships:
  • Marks quotes Nietzsche: “Marriage is a long conversation, so be sure that you're marrying somebody you want to...never get tired of talking to.” (Mark, 61:46 / paraphrased)
  • Deep friendship, communication, and contentment in the mundane are the real glue of sustainable partnerships.
  • Keeping score in marriage is toxic (“the scorecard in any relationship is just death”); true partnership means supporting each other through life’s fluctuating phases and not holding past failures against one another.
• Dating Apps & Modern Love:
  • Dating apps are flawed: people don’t know what they really value, and over-filter on superficial traits.
  • Chemistry isn’t quantifiable: "So much is happening unconsciously...a chemistry that you can't really describe." (Mark, 65:15)
• Personal Story:
  • Mark met his wife pre-Tinder, moved to Brazil, and attributes the success of their marriage to taking things slow, cohabiting, and being intentional (71:31–73:17).

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11. Mark’s New Venture: Purpose App

• AI & Life Advice:
  • Mark describes launching Purpose, an app designed to provide honest, sometimes tough, advice—unlike the “overly agreeable” chatbots. The spirit of Disappointment Panda lives in the app, designed to “read your soul in five minutes.” (75:57–77:01)
  • “If people are going to do this, there should be something on the market that is actually designed for this use case.” (Mark, 75:57)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Self-Help Delusions:
  • “If you try to think that way, you're just gonna become this, like, delusional Looney Tune who's completely detached from reality.” (Mark, 20:56)
• On Parenthood and Meaning:
  • “Kids are probably the fastest and most direct route to a sense of purpose...There is that very intense sense of purpose and meaning that it's very hard to replicate anywhere else.” (Mark, 29:11)
• On Friendship:
  • “If you take a person who has a romantic relationship but no friends, they're probably going to have much worse health and psychological outcomes than a person who has plenty of friends and no romantic partner.” (Mark, 40:53)
• On Marriage:
  • “If you…keep score in a relationship, you’re both gonna lose…intimacy in many ways is just—it’s the opposite of a power struggle.” (Mark, 70:28)
• On Death:
  • “In Buddhism, they say that meditation is—you are practicing how to die by relinquishing all of your thoughts and all of your attachments.” (Mark, 59:05)
• On Apps & AI:
  • “The problem with ChatGPT is that it just kisses your ass all the time…there’s no, like, tethering to reality.” (Mark, 74:25)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamp (MM:SS) | |---------------------------------------------------|-----------------------| | Happiness vs. Purpose & Responsibility | 01:30 | | Disappointment Panda & Uncomfortable Truths | 03:06 – 06:10 | | Profanity, Language, & Book Branding | 07:21 – 10:24 | | Upbringing & Rebelliousness | 12:31 – 13:54 | | Religion, Philosophy, and Meaning | 16:10 – 20:01 | | Self-Help Industry Critique | 20:56 – 23:23 | | Parenthood, Meaning, and Depression | 29:11 – 32:54 | | Friendship & Loneliness Epidemic | 34:12 – 40:53 | | Adult Friendship: The 3 Factors | 43:09 – 46:30 | | Friendship, Status, and Envy in Adulthood | 47:19 – 48:03 | | Life Satisfaction: Friends vs. Parenting | 49:32 – 53:12 | | Death, Buddhism, and Meditation | 57:39 – 61:00 | | Philosophy of Marriage & Communication | 61:46 – 67:14 | | Dating, Moving for Love, Marital Transition | 71:31 – 73:17 | | New App ‘Purpose’ & Disappointment Panda in AI | 74:25 – 77:26 |

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Additional Memorable Moments

• Mark’s Mom’s Feedback:
  • “My mom is like, you know, I love your podcast, but do you really have to talk about your childhood so much?...I know, mom. I know. Like, so shout out to my mom.” (Mark, 13:02)
• On Communal Decline:
  • “All the traditional means of people having proximity and frequent exposure to other people are essentially removed from our lives in the 2000s. So we just don't even have that baked in repetition.” (Mark, 43:09)
• Nietzsche on Marriage:
  • “Marriage is a long conversation, so be sure that you're marrying somebody you won't get tired of talking to.” (Mark paraphrasing Nietzsche, 61:46)
• Mark’s App vs. ChatGPT:
  • “If you have two people who...have some basic commonalities...but you put us in the same room for 50 days in a row, we’ll probably become friends. Whereas...people these days, they're like, oh, we have to have everything in common...most of that stuff doesn’t even matter.” (Mark, 43:09)

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Conclusion

This episode offers a rich, candid, and frequently humorous dive into the realities of meaning, purpose, relationships, and modern adulthood. Mark Manson’s frankness, introspection, and willingness to challenge cultural scripts make for a deeply engaging listen. The episode is peppered with practical wisdom for parents, singles, partners, and anyone navigating the complexities of purpose or connection in the 21st century.

Transcript

[Abby]

Thank you to Time4Learning for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Schooling is one of the most important decisions you make for your children and I'm really excited about the option Time4Learning. We are coming to that point where our kids are getting ready to enter pre K and there's all these decisions to make. And I love that we're in this day and age where there are so many options. But I'm also very overwhelmed by it. But I'm really excited about Time4Learning because they have everything you need to teach Pre K through 12th grade at home, but with all the core and elective classes offered in a traditional brick and mortar school. I love that option because you get the structure that that you would like with a traditional school format but with a personalized, intimate setting of homeschooling. And that's because Time4Learning believes in harnessing the flexibility of homeschool to help families explore passions, travel and hobbies without the constraints of traditional school hours. It can also be used for more than homeschooling. It is also used for school or summer learning to address learning gaps or maintain skills. It was created by experts for parents with over 1 million students served. Time 4 learning is also super user friendly. It can go on your computer or on your phone and they have really easy to read calendars for the day or the month. It has a progress bar so you can see where your kids are at, what they've completed and what they still have yet to do. I think it's a really, really great options for families that are looking for that flexibility and that nuance in their child's education. So if you're Also curious if Time4Learning is right for your family, visit Time4Learning.com that's Time Number 4Learning.com to explore their curriculum and find the perfect plan for your student. You can get started with a monthly subscription to see just how much your kids enjoy learning on their own terms.

[Mark Manson]

Happiness is overrated and purpose is underrated. And the thing about purpose is that it's often hard, this idea that you can be perfectly internally validated and never worry about what other people think about you. There's a word for somebody who doesn't care what other people think about them. It's called a psychopath and we don't want to be psychopaths. A lot of people have replaced religion with politics with economic pursuits, materialism. I'm like the most pro religion atheist there probably is because if you don't place it somewhere, you could very likely place it Somewhere very destructive. The meaning of your life is what you make of it. That's intimidating. Date. It's scary because if you make the wrong choices or you prioritize the wrong things, guess whose fault it is? Right. Guess who screwed up.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Today on Unplanned, we sat down with Mark Manson, the New York Times bestselling author of the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Frick. That's actually the F word. Mark's book speaks straight to your heart as a human. It's very different than the typical self help book. We talk about why making friends as an adult is so hard, the fastest way to find your purpose, and so much more. All on today's episode. Mark Manson, welcome to Unplanned.

[Mark Manson]

I'm happy to be here. I did not plan on it.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

We also have the disappointment panda in the room.

[Abby]

All this, we need some explanation for the panda.

[Mark Manson]

He's making a rare appearance. He's kind of the mascot at the front of the office. Most people he's. I don't, I actually don't think he's ever been on a podcast before.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

No way. No, wait, this is his first podcast.

[Abby]

Come here, Come here. Matt goes, how do you think our audience would think if we had a giant panda join us? I was like, maybe if you just like introduced him.

[Mark Manson]

Oh, my God, he's huge.

[Abby]

And the T shirt is so tight.

[Mark Manson]

He's heavy. Yeah, yeah, he's a big boy. No, he's so in my book, subtle art and not giving a. He's. I create a superhero called Disappointment Panda and his superpower is he tells people truths that they don't want to hear, like, but they need to hear. Right?

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

So it's like, yeah, the problem in all your relationships is you, like, that's. He just goes door to door to like a Bible salesman and like knocks on their door and just tells them like the really awful thing that they need to hear about themselves.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

I love the quote from your book. It's like the panda going to someone's door and saying, hey, making more money isn't actually going to make you happier. It's not gonna make your kids like you either. Like,

[Mark Manson]

that's our boy.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Which, I mean, man, it's, it's so, it's so convicting though, because I, I put the A prompt into AI reading, reading your book. I was like, I'm gonna have AI do this disappointment panda thing to me. And it, like, reading. The response back was like, whoa. Like, it just, it shook me. And the funny thing too was it essentially restated the title of your book in a way. It essentially told me to, like, stop caring about so much and focus on. Yeah, like, focus on less, essentially, is what it told me to do. Because I'm trying to do. I'm trying to do too much. I want to be the best at everything, and that's simply impossible. And I'm going to drive myself crazy and those around me crazy by trying to be the most efficient person in every aspect of my life, you know? Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

How did you come up with that idea of the disappointment Panda?

[Mark Manson]

You know, it's really funny. So I. When I'm writing, I often have this situation where I'm like, okay, the idea is good, but this is boring. Like, and there was a section of the book where I was like, okay, like, the content is good, but I'm just bored reading it. And so in those situations, I start asking myself, I'm like, how can we make this fun?

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

And often, you know, most. Most authors, they'll like, pull some historical story or example. Right? Or like some quote Steve Jobs said one time. And I had already done that in a bunch of other places in the book. And I was like, that's also boring. Like, like, let's just. Maybe it was the mood I was in, but I was like, let's get crazy. So I was like, what if I had a superhero and they just, like, they just were awful. Like the superhero nobody wanted to see coming down the street, and that's how he was born. And, you know, it's funny because when you're writing, sometimes you just. You just, you just have a hunch and you, like, go with it. And I'd say nine times out of 10, it ends up being terrible. But then, like, one time out of 10, it ends up being brilliant. And, you know, disappointment panda is probably the most cited. I mean, people. There are people with disappointment panda tattoos.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

No way.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. They've, like, sent pictures to me and. Yeah. So gnarly. It's. He's definitely had staying power, for sure.

[Abby]

It's so. It's so descriptive. Like, you. You can't forget that panda with the too tight T shirt, the tee on

[Mark Manson]

it and the sombrero. Can't forget that.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah. Is that an added touch that you. You put in recently or.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, well, no, it. It's so in the book, like, the whole section. Section of disappointment panda is just so unhinged and weird that I was like, well, you know, what's the movie? Is it. Is it old school where they're like, you know, if you're gonna go, go full or whatever.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Why do I not know that movie?

[Mark Manson]

There's some saying like that from, like, an old Will Ferrell movie, but it was just like, okay, if we're gonna go weird, let's. Let's just go all the way. And so by the end of the section, I've got, like, disappointment panda sitting on a patio, watching the sunset, sipping a margarita.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

I love it.

[Mark Manson]

And I was like, obviously he's wearing a sombrero, because why not? And that's what pandas do. Right? And it was just. I think I was just going for maximal. What? The energy in that chapter. And I guess it worked.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

So something that I love about you from just, like, everything I've seen is you. You clearly are just, like, authentically yourself. You. You don't hold back. You're. You're not. You're not giving an F. And. And, like. Like, I'm pretty sure this is the first podcast. We'll probably just mute you saying the F word.

[Mark Manson]

Just.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

We usually don't. We don't. We don't cuss.

[Abby]

Are we saying F or frick?

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

I guess I'll just be saying f and frick, if that's okay.

[Mark Manson]

Sure. I should have asked. I apologize.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

No, you're dead. No, no, no. You don't need to. You don't need to change yourself for us. Okay, but, like, that was a bold move to release a book.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

With the F word in the title. Right. Like, I'm guessing when you. When you release the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Frick. Sorry, I know that. But, like, when you release.

[Abby]

We apologize.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah, I'm apologizing to you. I'm like, miss, in my studio, you drop the F. But, like, when you went to release that book, was there anyone in your life that was like, hey, Mark, are you sure you want to have the F word in your book title?

[Mark Manson]

Well, it's funny because it was actually. It was like a very contentious debate with the publishers. Like, when we were shopping. When my agent and I were shopping the book around, we basically shopped it with two titles. And. And we told them, we're like, we prefer the. The F Bomb title. And. And by that point, you know, I'd been blogging for about four or five years, and I had a bunch of articles go viral, and we had seen that, like, the F bomb just, like, it just kills. Like, everybody clicks on it. So we kind of went to the publishers, and we're like, we think this is going to work.

[Abby]

Data.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

Like, we've seen this work. We're pretty sure it's going to work. But most of the publishers were like, no, no, no, we're not going to touch that. And it's actually funny in hindsight. The big concern at the time was that Walmart wouldn't carry it. That was like the big, like, that was the, like, oh, no, this is impossible. This is like 10 years ago. Walmart, they're like, we don't want to upset Walmart.

[Abby]

You know, that's funny. I wouldn't have expected. I don't really think about Walmart for books.

[Mark Manson]

Right, right. But I think at the time it was, you know, they were. Amazon was the biggest retailer and Walmart was the second biggest. So they're like, you know, probably 20, 30% of the market. And so a bunch of the publishers were like, this is just a no go. And my editor at HarperCollins, who I eventually, I actually signed the deal with, like, he really fought for it. He was like, no, no, no, this is you. This is, this is the book. This is the message. Like, we should live by the sword, die by the sword, so to speak. So it's funny because I actually wasn't that attached to it. A lot of authors get very up in arms and possessive. They think their baby is perfect and beautiful and everybody should think it's brilliant. Like they do. I was kind of like, look, there are plenty of good titles in the world. I don't need to have this one. But to my editor's credit, he actually really fought for it and was like, no, it has to be in the title.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

I like that. Is it. Did Walmart eventually cave and allow it did.

[Mark Manson]

The funny thing is too, is, is they, they came back to us maybe like a year later, six months, a year later, and they're like, okay, we'll stock it, but you have to put a black box over the entire F word. So as if, like, censoring one letter wasn't good enough for them, they're like, you have to censor the whole word and then we'll put it on the shelf.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

And so, because I'm guessing a lot of retailers, like, they, they probably wouldn't have displayed the book if you actually had the F word. Right. Like, so that I'm guessing the publisher was pretty like, pushed having the, the asterisk in the title.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, okay, yeah, that's like, pretty necessary. I actually think there's laws around what you're allowed to like, sell in certain places with the F word. There's, there's famously, there's we really want to bring the profanity. There are actually seven curse words that are not allowed I the fcc. FCC regulates them. Right. So you can't say them on tv. So it's like let them rip, let them rip. We can remember them now.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

We'll mute it or whatever.

[Abby]

If we need to memorize.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

You got to memorize on the top of your head.

[Mark Manson]

I think it's, I think it's sucker mother. That's four of them. I forget what the other three are.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Okay, well we'll get back to you.

[Mark Manson]

Everybody listening.

[Abby]

We'll get back to you on this circling back.

[Mark Manson]

But you're not allowed so you're not allowed to put it on broadcast television, you're not allowed to put it in a newspaper or magazine and you're not allowed to put it on a store shelf. So you have to censor it in some way. Either bleep it or block a letter out. But it was funny because Walmart was like, oh no, censoring the U isn't enough for us because we're Walmart. So we're gonna make you censor all four letters.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

And was cursing just a part of your life growing up or did you, was there like a definitive moment where you were like, I'm gonna curse now. I'm gonna say the F word now. I longer going to say Frick. I'm going to say the actual word.

[Mark Manson]

I just thought, I've always talked this way.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Really?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Okay. Because I see I grew up like in like Bible Belt, Missouri. So just now as a 27 year old father of two, I've started saying saying the F word sometimes.

[Abby]

Now that you're a father.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

I don't know. I still don't know how I feel about it. Yeah, now that I'm a father, that's what did it.

[Mark Manson]

Fatherhood. Uncorked it.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

All those, all those late nights changing

[Mark Manson]

diapers at 2:00am yeah, there you go.

[Abby]

Crazy.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Manson]

No, I also grew up in the Bible belt, but I think for me it was, I was very rebellious. Like I didn't like where I grew up, so I was like.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

And that's why you sold drugs in middle school, is that right?

[Mark Manson]

Sold drugs in middle school. You're coming full circle.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

It all came around. How did your parents react by the way? Oh no, they grounded you. I read it in the book. They grounded you?

[Mark Manson]

My life ended basically. Yeah, I was put on like house arrest essentially.

[Abby]

I think that was a good call.

[Mark Manson]

I mean, to be fair, I mean it was it's interesting because looking back, my poor parents, by the way, sometimes I go home for like Thanksgiving and my mom is like, you know, I love your podcast, but do you really have to talk about your childhood so much? And she's like, we did our best with what we knew. I'm like, I know mom. I know. Like, so shout out to my mom.

[Abby]

Shout out to mom.

[Mark Manson]

She's a great mom. She loves me very much. She did her best. But, you know, no parent is perfect. So. But like my parents marriage was coming apart and so like, in hindsight I can, as an adult, I can see what happened, which is my parents marriage was coming apart. Obviously, when your marriage is coming apart, like, you don't have the energy to like stay, connect super connected with your kids. Right. Like, you're just in full survival mode.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

Maintenance mode. So my brother and I. And then of course, you know, it's like my brother and I kind of picked up on the tension and the turbulence in the house and we're not getting like, mom, like, we're not being paid attention to. Like, it's. Everything's uncomfortable. It's not. It's not a good home to be in emotionally. So you start lashing out as a kid, right? So you start. You've got to channel and direct that energy somewhere. And so he and I both rebelled in our own ways. And for me, it was selling drugs in middle school and dropping F bombs, I guess.

[Abby]

Thank you to Cash App for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Have you ever known someone who has fallen for a scam?

[Mark Manson]

I do.

[Abby]

Me, Many times. I have fallen victim to online scams. And you know what? I'm gonna give myself a little credit. It's easy to do nowadays, okay?

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

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[Abby]

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[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

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[Abby]

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[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App's Bank Partners. Prepaid debit card issued by Sutton bank member FDIC Discounts promotions provided by Cash App, a Block Inc. Brand. Visit Cash App Legal podcast for full disclosures. In your book, you talk about Buddha and how he came to be and suffering, and it was just like, so insightful. Did you like, grow up Christian but then become Buddhist essentially? Or was that just something that you, like, gained a lot of, you know, ideas and your belief systems from?

[Mark Manson]

So I was raised Christian, I think around age like 13 or 14, I kind of. I just, I kind of stopped believing in it. But I got curious about a lot of other religions. And so then I got very curious about Buddhism and got, it was very into Buddhism, I'd say, from like age 19 to 25. Meditated a lot, would go on retreats and studied a lot of it. Buddhism has been very influential on me from like, kind of a intellectual, philosophical point of view. It really wasn't until I was in my 30s that I started to really appreciate how much Christianity has been influential on me. I think it took me until I was like 35 to start coming back around and noticing all of the, just like the seeds that came from church and came from Christianity and being exposed to it at such an early age. So those two are like very strong influences in my work. And it's funny because, like, I still technically consider myself an atheist, although I joke on my podcast that I'm like the most pro religion atheist there probably is. Like, why is that? Well, I think it's just, I think religion, it just serves a very useful and psychologically important function for people. And it's. I think atheists tend to underestimate how much faith they're putting in other things. Like, I honestly think, like, humans are just wired to have faith in something.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

And there's a good argument for directing that faith towards one of these kind of ancient mythological structures and sets of morals and practices. With 3,000 years of history, 2,000 years of history. I think there's like a very strong argument for that because if you don't place it somewhere, you could very likely place it somewhere very destructive and very harmful. Right. So I think like a lot of people have Replaced religion with politics. I think a lot of people have replaced religion with economic pursuits and materialism. I think in my industry, a lot of people have replaced religion with self help and, like, quote, unquote, like, personal growth and spirituality and whatnot. And. And I just think it's like a lot of these other things, there are a lot of bad side effects, and a lot of them are kind of untested, and I think a lot of people kind of lose themselves in them. I actually have a lot of appreciation for what religion does, both, like, in terms of an individual's psychology and happiness, and also, like, the communities that it fosters for people. Like, because I just. That's the biggest thing that I miss when I think about my childhood is like, I. I think about the community that my parents had around them, and I'm frankly, I'm envious. Like, I don't have that in my life, and most people I know our age don't have that in their lives. Right. So if you don't mind me asking,

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

what have you replaced religion with in your life? Sorry, that was deep. That, like.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, it's a great question. It's a great question. The short answer is I've. I think I've replaced it with philosophy. I've spent most of my adult life reading and thinking about a lot of philosophy and thinking very deeply about, like, what my ethics are and what principles I believe in and what beliefs I have about the universe. But, like, I also recognize that I don't necessarily think they're. They're any better or worse than anybody else's. Right. So, yeah, it's. There may be a little bit more grounded and a little bit more, like, logically consistent and challenged, you know, because most of the philosophers I'm a huge fan of, their ideas have been around for centuries. But, yeah, I think what philosophy lacks and that I definitely feel like I lack in my life is is that social component, that community, the ritual of it.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

The practice of it. Like, the fact that, you know, like, if you're. If you're taking communion on Easter, it's like people have been doing this for 2,000 years. Right. The exact same thing that you're doing. There's. There's a certain amount of, like, significance and meaning that comes with that that I don't think you can replicate with, like, a yoga seminar out in Malibu or, you know, a hundred percent, or even a philosophy course. Right. You know.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Oh, yeah.

[Mark Manson]

Reading the classics.

[Abby]

Something you mentioned that surprised me and I would think would maybe surprise other people. Listening to this podcast is you saying, like, that there's some dangers potentially around, like, self help. And seeing that that's like, what the topic of your book kind of fits in that category probably at, like, Barnes and Noble. It's under that section. Like, I think that's surprising. Like, I'm curious, like, what, what do you think are some of the dangers around self help and like, that kind of phenomenon?

[Mark Manson]

I do think there are a lot of drawbacks. And it's funny because, like, subtle art was, in many ways, it was written as a counter argument to a lot of the self help industry. Like, I just, I felt like there was a lot of bad assumptions and bad behavior going on in the market. And I was. And subtle art was very intentionally kind of a middle finger to it of like, guys, this is nonsense, right? This idea that you can just be happy all the time and, you know, everything's great and awesome. It's like, no, life doesn't work that way. And in fact, if you try to, if you try to think that way, like, you're just gonna become this, like, delusional Looney Tune who's completely detached from reality or this idea that you can be perfectly internally validated and never worry about what other people think about you. There's a word for somebody who doesn't care what other people think about them. It's called a psychopath. And we don't want to be psychopaths, right? You should care what your partner thinks about you, should care what your kids think about you. It matters. So the question isn't how do you stop caring what people think about you? The question is, who do you care what they think about you? And how are you? What are the reasons that you care? Right? Because there are good and bad reasons to compare yourself to others. If you look at a role model or a hero or something, yeah, you should compare yourself to that person because it's inspirational. It encourages you to become a better person. Like, a lot of my work is. Is kind of just pointing out those counter arguments to people in terms of specifically some of the damage that I see, see, see done. The simplest way to put it is that I would say that real happiness is not always pleasant. Real happiness is often difficult, challenging, and painful. And I think what this market promises, self help in general, it kind of. It gets like a drug dealer almost. It gets people hooked on constantly pleasant feelings, right? So it's like, if you do this practice, you'll always feel good. If you meditate this way, you'll always feel good. If you just ignore all the people who don't like you, then you'll always feel good. It's actually really encouraging people to become very narcissistic and self indulgent in the name of being happy or whatever. I often see people who spend a lot of time in this industry, like, become very, very narcissistic in that way. And it's, it's. Yeah, it's not good since, since writing the book.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

It's almost been a decade, which is, which is crazy. Has anything changed as far as the values you have?

[Mark Manson]

This question's actually very, like, appropriate because the 10th, 10th anniversary is coming up next year, and we're gonna do a 10th anniversary edition. So part of that edition is I'm gonna give the book a minor revision and kind of go through and decide if there's anything I want to keep or change or expand or whatever, or rewrite. And I haven't done that yet. But, like, I, I've, I've kind of gone back and skimmed through the book. I mean, I will say this, like, all the big ideas I stand behind, I still believe I wouldn't really change any of the macro statements. Most of the stuff that I'm probably going to end up changing are going to be like, very minor phrasings and line rewrites. And I just think there's, there's probably better ways to express certain ideas or maybe certain things need a little bit more elaboration and other things maybe, you know, maybe cut a couple lines out. So that's my expectation. But the, the short answer is, is no. I, I pretty much stand by everything and especially the, the radical responsibility piece like it, you know, coming back to what my faith is. Right. So I like the, the school of philosophy that I identify with is, is existentialism and, and existentialism's, like, core precept is the meaning of your life is what you make of it. We all have a limited amount of time, and in that limited amount of time, we all have to make choices of how we spend it. And you have no option in that. Like, even if you don't do anything, that is a choice that you're spending your time on not doing anything. Right? So it's like at any given moment, you are constantly making a choice of what to spend your time on, what to spend your attention on, what to put your, your intention behind, whatever you choose that is indicative of some sort of prioritization. Right? So, you know, the fact that you guys are here, it like, indicates that you. That this podcast is important to you. That it is. It is a high priority for you. And so you organize other parts of your life around it. And the fact that you are always making those choices, no matter what, no matter if good things happen to you, bad things happen to you, other people are nice to you, other people are horrible to you. You are always making those choices in every single moment. Like, what matters to you? What is your priority? There is a responsibility that comes with that. You guys could walk outside of the studio and God forbid, you know, it's like, get hit by a car. And it's. It's not your fault that that happens, but it's still your responsibility. You chose to be here. You chose to travel. You got kids back home. You got it. Like, you've got to get better. You got to recover. Like, it's in every moment, you. You have that option to make a choice of what to pay attention to, how to react to what's happened to you, what you're going to learn for it, what intentions you're going to have. And so there is just this permanent state of responsibility that we all live within. And that's intimidating. It's scary. Like, it's. Because if you. If you make the wrong choices or you prioritize the wrong things, guess whose fault it is, right? Guess who screwed up? And people don't like to think about that. So. So we find ways to pretend that it's not our responsibility. We're like, oh, well, it's not my fault. Oh, no, it's, you know, it's the economy. Oh, it's the. That guy, he's mean to me because he's jealous. Oh, she's an idiot. Right? Like, it's. We pretend that there are all these things controlling our lives outside of ourselves. And while we are influenced by things outside of ourselves, it is always ultimately our responsibility to choose in every single moment what matters and what does not.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

I really resonate with. With your book. I really resonate with the values that you lay out in it. And something that, honestly, I didn't expect to happen at in my 20s was becoming a dad. Like, we just kind of got married young, had kids young, and at first it was, like, really hard. And I was like, what the frick did I do? This is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. But now it's become the best thing in my life. Like, there's no. Like, last night, even though maybe it's a little annoying that I don't get the best sleep right now because my 3 year old is like wanting to sleep in our bedroom and sometimes sleep in the bed with us because he just gets scared. It is so sweet when I, like look over at my kid and he like, just says to me in the night, like, love you, dad. Like, it's just like it's turned me into. It just like melts my heart that I have this sweet little boy who looks up to me and thinks I'm a superhero. Thinks I'm a superhero. Like the Disappointment Panda. Maybe a better superhero than Disappointment Panda.

[Mark Manson]

A little more compassionate than Disappointment Panda.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

And so, yeah, I guess the question I wanted to ask you, which if this is too personal, we can completely edit this out. But, like, is having kids something that you, you want to, like, see in your life?

[Abby]

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[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

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[Mark Manson]

That ship has sailed. At least in my, in my marriage. My, my wife and I were in our 40s at this point and it's, it's interesting because I wanted kids for a while and, and we tried for a while and it kind of didn't happen. And then we kind of reached this point where it's like, okay, if it's going to happen, it's going to be a lot of work. You know, you're going to have to do the whole harvest, the eggs and IVF and all this stuff. And my wife took a look at it and she's like, honestly, this is a lot. You know, she's had health problems over the years, so she's just like, I don't know if I'm up for this. And I realized in that moment I was like, you know, I could see a version of my life where I'm a dad, and it's full of meaning and extremely exciting and interesting and challenging and has a lot of purpose to it. But I can also see a version of my life without kids, and I can see a ton of meaning, ton of joy, a lot of interesting challenges, a lot of meaningful work. I realized I was, like, I was kind of okay with it. Kids are. What I have observed is that, you know, there's one of the chapters in Subtle art is called happiness is overrated. And I think you could kind of summarize the chapter by. By saying that happiness is overrated and purpose is underrated. Like a sense of meaning or a sense of, like, a reason to get up in the morning, I think is. Is underrated. And the thing about purpose is that it's. It's often unpleasant. It's often hard. You don't sleep well, right. Like, oh, God, the. Your kid's having a meltdown again. And, like, they're, like, throwing a tantrum and making a mess everywhere, and you're like, this again. Right. But it's. Even though it's not pleasant, it's meaningful. And I think at the end of the day, people crave meaning more than they crave pleasure. And my observation is that kids are probably the fastest and most direct route to a sense of purpose. Even though it's hard, even though there are many days where you're like, oh, my God, I'd give anything to just, like, take off to Fiji or something and, like, have a week to myself. It's. There is that very intense sense of. Of purpose and meaning that. That it's very hard to replicate anywhere else.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Wow, that's. That's actually really cool that you're saying that, because I, like, I've just experienced that in my own life.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Like, I. Not that I want my kid to be. In no way should they feel the weight of, like, oh, I got to make sure my dad's mental health is okay, because I'm, like. I'm his reason to get up in the morning. But it really has been so good for me to be a dad, especially with, like, some personal things I've gone through over the past, like, two years. Right now I'm, like, getting off antidepressants, and it's, like, just the whole. The whole dad thing has really brought a purpose and meaning to my life that I never thought I would have.

[Mark Manson]

That's very interesting, actually. Do you think. You think those two things are directly related? The antidepressants in the kids.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

No. Okay. No, no, it wasn't because I had kids that I got on antidepressants. That was like a whole other thing completely getting off. Oh, actually, yeah. Yeah. Actually, I feel like I, like, right now, one of my purposes in my life is figuring out to be, like, I want to be the best version of myself so that my kids can look up to me and, like, I can be a leader for them. And they, like, I don't want to make stupid decisions that might be, like, fun or exciting in the moment that are then gonna, like, I don't know, cause damage in life later that, like, then my kids could look at me and be like, oh, yeah, my dad. Like, my. I hate my dad. He did this. I want to be a good person for my kids to look up to.

[Mark Manson]

It's interesting, like, most people assume that depression is kind of a lack of joy or happiness, but it's. It's actually a lack of purpose, right? Like, it's 100%. And it's funny because when somebody's depressed, their friends and family are like, you know, let's go get pizza. Let's watch the game. You know, it's like, very, like, kind of little superficial, but it's like, really what that person's lacking is just like a deeper. Like, they need a reason to get up. Right? It's just like, okay, what? Show me something that matters. And so it's interesting that the. That those two things are kind of happening at the same time. The other thing, you know, we were talking earlier about, like, not caring what other people think. And probably the most common question I get at my events is, like, people will stand up, and they're like, how do I stop giving what other people think? And my answer is always like, you can't. You are always going to care what other people think. The question is, is, what do you care about more than what other people think? Right? Like, what do you care about more than yourself being liked? What are you willing to be disliked for? And I think another thing that children do for a lot of people is. Is. And maybe this is true for you, but, like, it's often the first thing in their life that they're like, this is more important than me. Like, I will be disliked for this, right? Like, I will. I will. I don't care what people think because I, like, I'm going to do what's right for. For my kids.

[Abby]

I want to talk a little bit. This is kind of going back a little bit, but I think it was really Humble of you to talk about how something you envy that your parents had, even though growing up, you're like, I didn't have, like, necessarily envy their marriage.

[Mark Manson]

Right.

[Abby]

But you envied the fact that they, like, had community. And I listened to your podcast on making friends as an adult, and it kind of. It reminded me of that. And I think that's a big conversation today because as you touched on your podcast, like, I feel like we're getting lonelier and lonelier as people. What's the statistics on it?

[Mark Manson]

Do you have a memories? It's awful. I don't have it off the top of my. But it's, like, awful.

[Abby]

Yeah. Like, we're, like, getting lonelier and lonelier, and it seems like I feel like a lot of people, especially in our age group, find themselves lonely maybe for, like, some of the first times in their life. Because, like, you have all these institutions usually, like elementary school, middle school, high school, college, and it was, like, kind of organized for you. You can find yourself lonely in those things, too. But especially, like, once you. I feel like college happens, you're, like, dumped, and you're like, go. And then you're all of a sudden, maybe in a workplace where you're, like, not the same, your co workers or maybe you're working remotely.

[Mark Manson]

A lot of people working from home.

[Abby]

Yeah. And so listening to that podcast was very interesting for me because I would describe you as very logical. Would you say that?

[Mark Manson]

Yes.

[Abby]

Like, why do we do the thing? Why do we have friends? Like, what's the purpose of friendship?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Abby]

Because me, I would say I'm not logical. Matt, would you say that Logical?

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

What do you mean? What do you mean by that?

[Mark Manson]

When you're putting yourself. He's got, like, dirty headlights right now.

[Abby]

I'm inviting feedback right now. I feel like I go a lot based on, like, feelings. Right. Like, I'm like, oh, this just feels good. And, like, this feels. I don't know.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

But I feel like your intuition is good, though. Like, I always go to you. I'm like, abby, what's your take on this person we just met? And then she'll tell me, like, how she felt. No, really, I feel like you have a really good read of character. I think you have a good judge of character. You really do.

[Abby]

Thank you. But, like, a lot of your conversation was around, like, the purpose of friendship and, like, why, as humans, like, we have friendship and, like, largely, like a

[Mark Manson]

larger community, the, like, scientific question of why humans have friendships is really fascinating because a lot of species don't A lot of species are not very like the. They're. Everybody's a loner. They don't stay in groups or packs or if they do, it's only families, right? So it's like the humans are quite unique in that we spend a very large percentage of our time with people and we care very deeply about people who are not related to us. That's relatively rare in the animal kingdom. So when evolutionary biologists and psychologists looked at this, like, it was actually quite a big conundrum. And without getting too nerdy into all the math, it really turns out that it's kind of funny. Like, physically, we're pretty mediocre in the animal kingdom. Like, we're. Most of the other apes and primates are much stronger than us. Most other mammals are faster than us. We don't really climb very well. We can't run very well. Like, where our eyesight's not great, our sense of smell is not great. Really, the thing that we have is just we have really, really big brains, and those brains allow us to coordinate across lots of people, to remember, you did this for me. And so I'm going to do this for you. And you have this sort of reputation, so I'm going to talk to you a certain way and talk to you a different way because of your reputation. That's kind of our superpower in terms of the species. Why did we evolve that? Well, it's interesting because there's. If you think of an insurance company, like, really what you're doing is you're pooling risk together. Let's say you and I are in a tribe with a hundred people and we want to go hunt an elephant. And if we catch the elephant, it's gonna feed the entire tribe for like a week. But chances are really slim. Like, it's probably. We're probably like 90% chance we're gonna fail. Now if it was just you and me, like, that would be a hugely risky endeavor. We run the risk of starving, the risk of our family starving. So you can't really. You don't really have the option to go do it. But if you have a hundred people, and let's say 90 of them are, like, picking berries and eating shrubs or whatnot, and they're able to cover the food needs of everybody else, then that frees us up to go take a huge risk and go hunt a big elephant and try to find something that's going to have, like, this huge reward for the group. And so it's kind of this risk reward calculation within human Nature. That is the reason that friendships emerge. Right? If you are able to rely on a network of people who care about you and who you've done good things for and you trust that they're going to do good things for you, it allows you to go take bigger risks in life. It allows you to go start that company or move to that new place or ask out that that person that you feel like is out of your league. Because it's like if it, if you get shot down and fail, like you know, there are people who, who are, you're still going to get your needs met. You're in the prehistoric days, it was your physical needs that were still going to be met. And these days it's your, your emotional and social needs are still going to be met. It's cliche but like we are all stronger together and there is like a very evolutionary and biological proof that the reason we are such a dominant species is because we are social and we are able to rely on each other and build relationships with each other. So it's like friendship is an unequivocally universally good thing. It's like very much hardwired into our nature. We need friends. It's actually for our mental health and our psychological well being. In many ways it's more important than a romantic relationship. If you take a person who has a romantic relationship but no friends, they're probably going to have much worse health and psychological outcomes than a person who has plenty of friends and no romantic partner. The person with no romantic partner but plenty of friends is actually probably going to be a very happy, well adjusted human. The person with a romantic partner and zero friends is not so. It is so fundamental to our nature. And I just think that gets lost these days. People don't. I think we just take it for granted. And it's been really interesting to, especially the last three or four years because friendship content was like never really a thing in my industry. Like people just, there wasn't much demand for it but like since the pandemic it's crazy. It's just like people, people are craving it and people are showing up and they're like, how do I make a friend? How do I keep a friend right? Like how do I meet more people? I don't like, I have nothing to do, I don't know anybody. And it's kind of like a very, very startling recent trend that has shown up.

[Abby]

Yeah, I think it's a good thing too and like the practical application in like today's world, like our tribes now like you kind of expanded on later in that podcast is the tit for tat thing. And so what does that look like in today's age? Like, is it going first and being like, hey, like, I'm going to show up for you here? Or is it like, how do people apply that now? Yeah, they're like, okay, how do we start this?

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

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[Abby]

I think as a parent, we're constantly thinking of ways that we can kind of give our kids a little bit more responsibility, independence, and honestly, household lemonade stand is kind of a staple in a child's life. But think about how much more awesome it is with Square.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yes, exactly. Like, think about you're seeing a bunch of kids selling lemonade. You're like, oh, I don't have cash on here.

[Abby]

Who has cash?

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

But you're like, I got my credit card. And then if they had a square thing, which a lot of kids do now, like, people are getting creative and doing this just like, you know, local restaurants, local coffee shops, all using Square,

[Abby]

they could really rack in the lemonade.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Honestly, I think we're going to use Square when our kids eventually get old enough to run a lemonade stand because then they can take credit card, hopefully this summer.

[Abby]

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[Abby]

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[Mark Manson]

The three factors of friendship are proximity, right? So it's like, are you easily accessible to each other? The second factor is how often you're exposed to them. It's just like pure exposure. How much time do you spend with this person. And then the third factor is just shared interests, like some sort of shared interest or value. It doesn't even have to be that much. It could just simply be like, we work together or we live on the same street. The biggest fact, like, the most important of those really, is that exposure. And if you think of. You mentioned school, right? Like, if you think about when we're growing up, school, by its very nature, you are forced into proximity with hundreds of other kids your exact same age. You have plenty of things in common. You're doing all the same thing at the same time. And then you see each other all day, every day, for years. So it's like friendship is. It's almost inevitable in a school environment, which is great. Kids should have that, and we have that up through college and university. But then, like you said, you get dumped in the real world, and suddenly you are in this highly dynamic environment. Everybody's running in a different direction, doing their own thing. And nobody's ever explained to you how this is supposed to work, how you're supposed to make a friend as an adult. And what complicates it even more is that the most common places that people used to make friends, which was church, workplace, and then community, like being neighbors, all three of those things have been, like, incredibly disrupted over the last 20 years, right? So church attendance and religiosities, all time, low. Workplace. So I think there was a statistic, I think, back in, like, the 1970s, the average job duration, like, if you took a job at a company, I think on average, you would be at that company for nine years. Today it's less than two years. It's like 18 months, right? So people are switching jobs every 18 months. So it's like by the time you even get to know your co workers, you're like, you're going somewhere else and you're moving on. People change. People move and change cities more often than ever before. And then, of course, people are working from home. So it's like you're not even seeing your coworkers, much less, like, getting to know them. So it is like all the traditional means of people having proximity and frequent exposure to other people are essentially removed from our lives in the 2000s. So we just don't even have that baked in repetition. And it's funny because kind of the conclusion Drew and I came to on that episode is that I think people overestimate how much you have to have in common with somebody to be friends with them, and they underestimate just how much Exposure. You have to have, like, if you have two people who, like, really just, like, have some basic commonalities, like, we both like to watch football and play golf, but you put us in the same room for 50 days in a row, we'll probably become friends. Whereas, like, I think people these days, they're like, oh, no, we have to have everything in common and have the same beliefs and values and want to do the same things and be able to travel together and all this stuff. And it's like, no, most of that stuff doesn't actually doesn't even matter.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Our friend group that we've essentially developed over the past year is really just built off of the women that Abby works out with at the gym. And they will happen to work out at a gym where there's free childcare so all these moms can bring their kids. And we all have kids the same age. And then the dads, we've all become friends too. So now we hang out. And then our kids started playing on a soccer team together. And so now we've kind of, like, entered this stage of life where, you know, in. In a way, I guess. I guess the moms first banded together. But, like, our. Our kids friend, like, we're our friends. Are the parents of our kids friends?

[Abby]

Well, yeah, we kind of orchestrated that because they're two and three.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Abby]

But actually, that episode had me thinking, because you. You brought up how what would can disrupt a friendship is if one. Someone, like, you're gonna say this so much better than me, but if someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Abby]

It has, like, perceived higher success than the other person. It can go either way. Correct. And so I was like. Then you talked about the things like, whatever that's measured in. You gave the example of, like, someone that plays professional golf. If someone, like, makes it big, all of a sudden, that was, like, how you deemed yourself successful at life, that you can't hardly be friends with them at that point. And so it had me then, like, deep diving, like, what is it that we all are measuring as success that just happens to be aligned. But I think that's very interesting.

[Mark Manson]

And that's. It's the other thing, I think, that complicates all of this. Right. So if you think back to when you're in high school or college, everybody's on the same level. Yeah, right. Like, everybody. You're the same age. You have no life experience, you're broke. Your whole future is in front of you.

[Abby]

So, like, that's true.

[Mark Manson]

There's, like, zero Status, you all have no money. Yeah. Like, there's no measurement going on. Like nobody's, Nobody's decisions and choices are being worn on their sleeve. Like, that's the thing that changes once you, once you hit 30 or 40. Everybody's decisions are now being worn on their sleeve. Like you can see how things turned out for them. And if you are somebody who cares a lot about something, like, let's say you are somebody who wants to make a lot of money and suddenly some of the guys you went to high school with are making more than you. Like, that gets weird and there starts to be this weird jealousy or feeling or, you know, and it can be about anything. Like it's, it can be, you know, one person, I, in the episode I used golf. But like, it could be like somebody who, you know, really wanted to want to have a bunch of kids and then didn't have kids. Right. And then it's like their best friend has a bunch of kids. And it, now it gets weird because it's. Everybody measures themselves with a, with an internal yardstick. And so if you start seeing yourself fall behind on that yardstick to the people around you, you get insecure and, and that starts complicating everything.

[Abby]

That's like a fourth factor.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah. From the people that you've spoken to about purpose in life, have you noticed more of a common trend in life satisfaction with people having friends or people that like you said earlier, are parents? Because you said something about how having kids brings, you know, a purpose and meaning to life for a lot of people.

[Mark Manson]

So in psychology, the psychological literature itself, psychologists measure quality of life on three different metrics. So the first one is, is basically just like a consistent sentiment, like, how are you feeling day to day? Are you generally happy? Do you feel good? Are like, things going well? It's very short term. It's kind of like more. It's mostly pleasure. Right?

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

Like, are you happy today? Scale from 1 to 10 and you're like, yeah, I had pizza and watched a good movie. Like, sure, I'm an, I'm a nine. You know, and it's, that's kind of the most superficial metric. And it's interesting because a lot of happiness research, quote, unquote, is based on that very short term sentiment based metric. So there's like some famous research that says that actually kids make people miserable. And it's. Well, yeah, because they measured them on that, like short term, like, how are you feeling today on a scale from 1 to 10. Right. And it's like, well, I slept three hours last night and the baby's crying again. So I'm a three.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

Thank you very much.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

If you're that viral chaperone clip from her on Call Her Daddy where she's like, all my friends with kids are miserable. Yep.

[Mark Manson]

So I mean, it's, it's true. Like, I mean, you guys know, it's, it's like that first year is hard.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Manson]

So it's. So there's that metric, right? And then there's a second metric, which is life satisfaction. Generally the question they ask in the surveys is on a scale from 1 to 10, with 10 being the best possible life you can imagine for yourself. Like, where are you right now? Most people say around a seven. That's kind of like a medium term metric. Just because generally, like, if, if, if somebody's asking you, you know, how good is your life in general, how good do you feel about your decisions? Chances are you're mostly thinking about probably the last five or 10 years and maybe the next five years. I understand that is a long time, but like, it can get much larger. So the third metric is. That's the purpose and meaning metric. So it's like, do you feel like, how much purpose or meaning do you feel like you have in your life? Generally the best way to think about that is like, if you died, how much do you feel like you're leaving to the world? Like, how much of an impact do you think you've had on, on the world, the universe?

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

That's so deep.

[Mark Manson]

What legacy are you leaving? Right? And that's why kids are so powerful, right? Because it's like, even if something happens to you, you know that they're gonna live on and that you've like made your imprint on them and they're gonna go on and do things that you can't even imagine. And that's just like such a deep level of meaning and profundity that like, you can't really match that with. It's a completely different scale or measurement. Right. So it's funny, generally you asked about parents versus friendships.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

So parents, generally, they score low on those first, the first metric for sure. They're like, I need sleep and oh my God, if my 6 year old doesn't stop talking about dinosaurs, I'm gonna like jump out of a window. But if you ask them about purpose, they're like, no, I feel a lot of purpose and meaning. Like, it's no, I feel like every day matters. Whereas if you ask somebody, say, with a lot of friends or like A really fun social life. Generally, they'll score much higher on those first two measures. Right? So they're like, yeah, I'm having a great time. I just had this great trip, you know, went surfing with my friends. And they may even score, you know, they generally score higher on life satisfaction as well. But, you know, purpose and meaning is a deeper, longer term thing that it's really hard to access. I think it's like, very few things get at it. I really think it's. It's like career, family, religion, and like, the list isn't much longer than that.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

As someone that is not having kids and, you know, probably at this point won't be having kids. From what we talked about, how do you fill in that gap in your life? Where do you drive that purpose and meaning that a lot of people get from having children from. In your own life?

[Mark Manson]

For me, it's very much my career. I find my work extremely meaningful and I find a lot of. A lot of purpose in it. And when it was clear that. That we weren't gonna have kids, like, I kind of looked at my life and I'm like, all right, I was just given a massive amount of time over the next 18 years. Right. Because it's. There's all this time that most people are going to be spending raising kids. Yeah. Time and energy that, like, I'm gonna have that for myself. Right. So I asked myself, I'm like, what is meaningful that I can invest this into that legacy Question, like, what can I leave behind that's going to be impactful? And for me, like, the simplest answer is work. So, I mean, I'm already. I've always been a little bit of a workaholic, but, like, I mean, it's. It's been much more conscious the last few years of, like, hey, I've got a great thing going. And I have. I'm like, in a very privileged and fortunate position to have this platform and have this audience and have, yeah, this skill set and this knowledge. And so I'm just gonna work my ass off to make the most of it and try to, like, leave the world a better place.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

If you could sum it all up, is that the legacy you want to leave is just leaving this world whenever. Whenever you die. Whenever that happens, you want to leave it better than you found it. Is that kind of how you'd sum it up?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, in a nutshell.

[Abby]

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[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

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[Abby]

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[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

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[Abby]

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[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

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[Abby]

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[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Have you ever seen someone die? That was a really weird question. You talk about death a lot, which I think is cool. Like, it's a scary topic. But like, dude, I was, it was super late at night. I was actually listening to your, your book on audible and I, I like had this random thought pop into my head of I kind of want to like, experience seeing like I Don't know if it's like, an old person or a family friend or what, but, like, I want to experience one's final moments, like, as weird as that is, because I feel like it would give so much perspective, and. I don't know, I. I hope that I'm not alone when I die one day. That'd be really sad to be, like, literally by yourself in a hospital room. No one's there, and you're like, all right, peace out, world. Like, I don't know. Have you ever. Is that something that you want to experience or have experienced?

[Abby]

These are the things that matter.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Because you talk about death a lot, right?

[Mark Manson]

I do talk about that a lot.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

I think it's the first line in your. In the trailer for the movie.

[Mark Manson]

Yes.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Says you're gonna die. Yes.

[Mark Manson]

Well, it's been. So I think one of the things that is maybe a little bit unique in my life, I think I was exposed to a lot of death inadvertently, like, at a young age. So I lost all my grandparents by the time I was 14 or 15. I had two classmates die in high school. I had one of my closest friends die first year of college. And that when I was there, by the time I was 20, I had basically been around or had, like, five or six people I, like, really cared about.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Holy cow.

[Mark Manson]

Who had died. Which, you know, when you're young, you, like. You don't realize these things are not normal. But it. I think it did make me think about this a lot. A lot more. Especially a lot more than most young people. I think also part of what drew me to Buddhism is that Buddhism is very. They talk very bluntly about death quite a bit, like, there is no afterlife in Buddhism. So, you know, it is. It's. In Buddhism, life is just an illusion. And actually, death is, like, kind of like a cessation of the illusion. Right. And in Buddhism, they say that meditation is. Is. You are. You are practicing how to die by relinquishing all of your thoughts and all of your attachments.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Whoa. I've never heard that before.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, it's pretty intense and on, like. It's crazy, too. So the. The. The Buddhist center that I studied at in. When I was in college, one of my meditation teachers, her specialty. I forget what. What it's called, but there's, like, a certain name for it. But her specialty is, like, she, like, helps people die. So she would go to hospitals and, like, offer her services of, like, you know, of like, basically go to the. Whatever. The part of the hospital is where people are where people are dying. And she would go from patient to patient and essentially offer services, say, like, hey, I specialize. Like, you know, I can help you peacefully go and, like, be at peace with it. And there are all sorts of, like, meditations and chants and stuff that she would do with people. You know, like, thought exercises to, like, help them relinquish, like, let go and, like, be okay with it. So it's, like, hardcore.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah. No, that's scary. You know, like, my brain right now is, like, fighting between, like, thinking intellectually about this and then, like, the deep fear that I think I and probably so many other people have of, like, death is a really freaking scary thing.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, I mean, she was hardcore. I. I remember when she told me about it, I was like, I have so much respect for you. Holy crap. Like, anybody who can do that. And, like, I mean, it's just like a voluntary service, right? Like, you know, she just go to. Go to the hospital on a Wednesday night and be like, all right, who's dying? Let me. Let me go. Let me go. Hold their hand.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Volunteer to do that.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. It's a sacred thing in. In, like, Buddhist theology that, like, that passing from this life, it's. It's like, a very special moment. And obviously, it's scary. And, like, everybody recognizes that. It's really scary. And so there's, you know, in. In that. That world, there's a lot of value and importance in just, like, helping people through the process.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

That got, like, really deep. Thank you for sharing that. So maybe we. Maybe we, like, don't talk about something. Yeah. Can we talk about marriage? You're a married guy. You love death and marriage. You seem to love being married.

[Mark Manson]

Speaking of death.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Speaking of death. Let's rewind a little bit. I was chatting to some people on your team, and they seem to think that, like, you have a really happy, healthy marriage.

[Abby]

This is a really cool compliment. You should know this. They were, like, saying that you and your wife have, like, one of the sweetest marriages that they've witnessed.

[Mark Manson]

That's cute.

[Abby]

So that's real. That's a really high compliment.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Abby]

And I saw on one of your, like, most popular reels is about marriage being a long conversation. Like, finding a good partner has, like. Can you.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Abby]

Talk about that a little bit?

[Mark Manson]

That's. So there's a great quote from Nietzsche, who, ironically, was never married.

[Abby]

Are many philosophers married?

[Mark Manson]

A lot of them were not.

[Abby]

Yeah, I kind of feel like they were. Yeah, they're in their thoughts a lot.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Does that make getting. Being married Hard because you're like a philosopher and. Yeah, I don't know.

[Abby]

I know why you're doing this.

[Mark Manson]

You're probably hard to be around if you're that smart and that philosophical. Just like, analyzing everything all the time. I could see how you'd be annoying to be around, but. Yeah, no. Nietzsche has this amazing quote where he said that. He said that. He said, marriage is a long conversation, so be sure that you're marrying somebody you want to. You'll never get tired of talking to. And I think there's a lot of wisdom in that because it's pretty much like almost anything you want or like or desire in a partner. It's probably temporary to some extent. Right? It's like everything comes and goes. People are. There's going to be good times, there's going to be bad times, there's going to be hard times, there's going to be easy times. There's going to be, like, times where things are going super well for your partner and bad for you, and times that things are going great for you and bad for your partner. There's going to be health problems, psychological problems, aging problems, family problems, social problems. Like, all this stuff is going to happen. And what I take his quote to mean is just that, like, as long as you inherently love the communication you have with each other, then nothing else matters. You can kind of ride the wave of anything that happens, anything that comes and goes. And it's. It's really. I think at the core of, like, a good marriage is. Is a really, really strong friendship. Like, just a genuine satisfaction of. Of being together and just talking to each other. Because it's. It's. As long as you have that communication, like, everything else is kind of figureoutable. I think.

[Abby]

I think on one of your clips, you mentioned dating apps and how, like, a lot of them are maybe counterproductive to, like, what people want to do, because it's like these filters that you're putting on. Aren't long term going to suit you when it comes to, like, finding that, like, lifelong friendship that marriage requires? And did you meet your wife on a dating app? Or how did you. Did it still work?

[Mark Manson]

It's really funny because we met so we met in 2012. Tinder came out, like, six months later.

[Abby]

Okay.

[Mark Manson]

And it was funny because when Tinder came out, like, it was such an exciting thing, like it had never existed before. Right? So it's like it was just this new novel thing and all of our friends were using it and they're like, oh, my God. This is crazy. I'm getting so many dates. And I remember when. When my wife and I were dating and we kind of joked. We're like, do you want to take, like a month break so we can, like, try this Tinder thing? We used to joke about it and. And now, I mean, within a few years, we're like, oh, my God, thank God we met before the apps were around, because it's just who. It's. It's so hard out there now, and it's.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

It.

[Mark Manson]

I think they've. They've actually been very counterproductive. And I think the reason why is I don't think people actually have an accurate sense of what is going to make them happy with a partner. In fact, I know people don't have an accurate sense. And I also, like, there's research that backs this up. Like, if you. If you actually take people's criteria for what they want in a partner and give it to them, like, they're not. It's not predictive at all of, like, how much you actually gel with a person or how attracted you end up being.

[Abby]

We don't know our own types.

[Mark Manson]

We don't. We really don't. Because so much of it is happening unconsciously. It's happening at an emotional level. And so much of it is just like, it's very intangible. It's like a chemistry that you can't really describe. You just feel it when it's there. And I just know this too, from my own experience. Like, I don't know about when you. When you guys met, but, like, there are multiple girls that I dated or, like, girlfriends that I had that. That when I first met him, I was just like, eh, you know? But then it's like, you. You spend more time with them, you hang out with them, and you're like, oh, she's kind of cute. And like. And then you see her again, you're like, okay, yeah, no, that's. I'm actually. I'm kind of into her. Right. And it, like, it like, grows and evolves over time. Like, when I think about my girlfriend from. From college, like, I never would have picked her on a dating app. We had a great two, three year relationship. She was, like, hugely impactful on my life. Never would have picked her on a dating app. And it's funny too, because when. When my wife and I met, she. She initially shot me down.

[Abby]

There's something to that.

[Mark Manson]

I feel like there really is. There really is.

[Abby]

Interesting. Well, I thought you should know that

[Mark Manson]

compliment from your team that is very

[Abby]

nice of them because, you know, they see you guys probably a lot and not necessarily in romantic environments and work, but. So that's really sweet.

[Mark Manson]

My wife's awesome, and. And, yeah. Feel very good about her. My marriage.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

What's been something about marriage that you've learned recently or something that kind of surprised you?

[Mark Manson]

It's a good question. I. You know, marriage has this reputation that things get dull and repetitive and. And I think when we were younger, or maybe when we had just gotten married, we were a little bit worried about that. We're like, no, we're never. Like, we're gonna keep things fun and interesting. We're gonna do cool things together and. And all this. And it's funny because, like, now we're in our 40s, and it has gotten kind of dull and repetitive, but we're still happy. Like, that's the funny thing is, is she and I talk sometimes. We're like, we've become kind of boring, but, like, we're just as happy as we always were.

[Abby]

That's really sweet.

[Mark Manson]

And. And in a way, it's even better, right? Because it's like, okay, if I can still be happy, like, literally just sitting on the couch all day with her, reading a book, like, awesome. Who needs to go to Mexico or, like, go to a concert?

[Abby]

You talked about this with, like, love versus romance. I feel like there's, like, an application here, too.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. And it's interesting, too. This came up when we were doing our podcast episode on happiness. I thought it was really interesting that happiness is very cultural. Like, it's. Different cultures have kind of a different perspective or definition of it. And one of the things that came up was that, generally speaking, Western cultures associate happiness with excitement and, like, peak experiences. You know, if you kind of ask an American or a European, like, what's a really happy moment from the last year, they're probably going to say something like, oh, I went to this amazing show. Or Disney. Yeah, yeah, I went to Disney World. Or I, you know, my best friend surprised me with, you know, a party or whatever. In Eastern cultures, it's. They associate happiness with peace and calm. So if you ask, like, somebody from China or Japan, like, what is the happiest moment recently? You know, it's. It's probably going to be like, oh, I. I woke up on a Saturday morning and. And, you know, knitted for four hours, like, and it was very. It was beautiful outside. You know, it's like, it's something serene and calm, and I feel like there's something to that with romance as well. Like, I think the Western notion of romance is, like. It's like, very dramatic and it's very exciting. So much passion and all this stuff. But, like, my experience with my wife is that actually, like, real deep love is. It's peaceful. It's just. And it's kind of dull. Like, it's very. It's simple. It's very, very simple. Like, on the people. If people could see us from the outside, they'd be like, wow, those two are boring. But, like, when on the inside, like, we're just. We're just happy.

[Abby]

It's just. It's very satisfying togetherness.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

How do you avoid the trap of keeping score in your marriage?

[Mark Manson]

The scorecard. Yeah, one of the. One of something I've been writing about for a long time. The scorecard in any relationship is just death. Like, I. A simple way to put it is that, like, if you. If you're keeping score in a relationship, you're both gonna lose. Right? Like, you just have to understand that the score doesn't matter. And over a long enough period of time, it's. It's gonna even out. Right? And there's gonna be days and months and years where, like, one of you is not showing up as well as the other, and it's. It doesn't matter. Like, because there's going to be another time where the other person is not showing up for a day or month or a year. So it's. It's really like that. That isn't to say, like, let yourself be taken advantage of. It just means, like, don't hold on to things. Don't, don't. Like, don't use things is a way to bludgeon your partner. Right. It's like if he screwed up last month, like, don't hold that over him when the next argument happens. Or vice versa. As soon as you start introducing a power dynamic into a relationship like that, like, it is. It is the opposite of intimacy. Like, intimacy in many ways is just. It's the opposite of a power struggle.

[Abby]

Yeah. Because it's almost like you're viewing yourself as, like, two individuals. Whereas, like, if you're not keeping score, it's like us as a unit accomplished this versus, like, I did this and you did this.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. You can either play on the same team or play against each other. So it's. It's. You always make sure you're on. I. I have a friend, a friend of mine, she described it as, like, make sure you're on the same side of the net. Right. So yeah. You play tennis as doubles or you can play tennis against each other. Like, make sure you're on the same side of the net when you're fighting.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Before you got married, did you guys date for a certain amount of years or how long did you wait to. I don't know if you, like, waited to move in together until you got married. Like, how did you navigate all of that?

[Mark Manson]

We dated for three and a half years. Whoa. No, four years. No, four and a half years. I think I proposed to her after three and a half.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Okay.

[Mark Manson]

We met. So she's Brazilian. I met her in Brazil.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

That's so dope.

[Mark Manson]

And it spent a few months there. We dated, I left, we kept in touch. She visited me, I went and visited her. And then about six months later, I was like, oh, my God, I think I need to move to Brazil.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Did you move to Brazil?

[Mark Manson]

I did move to Brazil. No way. Yeah. So I lived there for two years. She moved in probably about after a year, year and a half. So the, the big thing was we wanted to travel the world together. Like, back then I was, I didn't on, you know, my business was online, so I was like, it was pretty, I was pretty flexible. I could like, like go live in different places and travel quite a bit. So that's kind of what made it possible. Nice. But it was also clear, like, I couldn't stay there forever. Visas expire and all sorts of stuff. And. And also I didn't want to live in Brazil forever. So we kind of agreed that we would, we would travel together. At a certain point. She would take a sabbatical from her job and we would do like a little around the world trip. And she was very practical and smart and she was like, you know, if we're going to travel the world together, we should probably live together first before we travel. And I was like, oh, yeah, that's actually really smart. So we. The second year that I was in Brazil, she moved in. And honestly, like, it was, it was pretty seamless. It wasn't, it wasn't a huge deal. Honestly, the big thing for me personally, like, I had a huge hang up about proposing. I was like super nervous about it and had a lot of resistance and anxiety around it. It wasn't entirely rational. Like, it was. I don't know. I think, I think it comes back to being too philosophical. Like, I was just like analyzing it too much.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

And. And it was funny because we had been together for almost four years. She definitely wanted to get married and was like dropping lots of hints And. And my parents also want, like, they were like, dude, when are you gonna put a ring on it? And I was just agonizing. I'm like, oh, I don't know if it's she. Like, how do I know? And is. Is she and all this stuff. I remember I was talking to my dad and my stepmom one night, and they were kind of getting on my case about not proposing. And I said exactly that. I'm like, you know, I love her, Everything's great. We're happy together. But, like, how do I know I'm gonna want to be with her for the rest of my life? And my stepmom just, like, looked at me like I was just the biggest idiot she'd ever seen in her life. And she was like, mark Manson, I've been with your dad for 27 years. I still don't know if I want to be with him for the rest of my life. She's like, just buy the ring. It's the intention. Like, stop being an idiot. I was like, okay, yeah, that's actually. There's a lot of wisdom. There's a lot of wisdom.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

That's awesome.

[Abby]

That's funny.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

You have just launched an app.

[Mark Manson]

So to back up and kind of set context for this, I was supposed to write another book this year, and I was going to. And what I noticed starting last year is, like, everybody in my life was, like, going to ChatGPT to, like, get advice and ask life questions. I was like, oh, that's really interesting. Like, let me play around with it. And so I started messing with it. And, like, it's okay. Like, sometimes it does well. But, like, as you guys probably know, the problem with ChatGPT is that it just kisses your ass all the time. It's like, you could say anything to it, and it's like, oh, that's brilliant. Oh, my God, that's amazing. What a great question. You know, I could go to it, and I'm like, hey, I'm the queen of France. Like, how do I rule my kingdom? And it's like, oh, look at you. Good for you. Let's talk about your kingdom. There's no, like, tethering to reality. And I think when it comes to actually pushing yourself and learning and growing, you need people who are going to call you out, who are going to, like, point out, like, hey, like, that might be a bad assumption. Or have you thought about it this way? Or have you noticed that you say this, but your behavior is not matching that? What's up with that? Right? Like, you need somebody to kind of compassionately push you and challenge you. I kind of became like obsessed with this problem and I eventually met my co founder who's built a number of, of AI companies and, and talked to him about it and we're like, yeah, this needs to exist because it's like literally hundreds of millions of people are going to chatbots, they're asking for life advice. They're probably not getting great life advice. Right. So it's like, if people are going to do this, there should be something on the market that is actually designed for this use case.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

And so that's why, that's why we, we, we created the app. It's called Purpose. It has a free trial and the, the onboarding assessment. It like basically gives you like a personality report. My goal with it is that it like reads your soul in like five minutes. And it's, it's pretty spooky. Gotten tons of emails from people that are like, it's crazy how fast it pointed this out to me. It's like totally saw through all of my BS and pinpointed what my issue is like within minutes. So it is, I think AI, when it's leveraged really well, can be extremely powerful. And that's been the goal. And basically the goal is to just have that, that tool available for as many people as possible.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

That's really cool. Yeah, I'm excited to see how it changes over the years. I mean, yeah, I've even even just using like a non niche AI like that, it's already been helpful for me. So I'm excited to try out PRPs and kind of see what it like discover.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Like have it read my soul. Did Disappointment Panda have anything to do with the purpose? The purpose? Tap.

[Mark Manson]

It's definitely. His spirit is definitely in it. It's. It's funny too because some of my fans have like messaged me and they're like, oh, this is like Disappointment Panda. It's funny. It can be a little harsh sometimes, but it's. I do think it is. I mean, ultimately the goal of it is to tell you the things that you need to hear but that don't necessarily want to hear and point out some gaps and in blind spots in each of us because we all have them.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

So I love it. I love it. Well, Mark, thank you so much for your time. Everyone go check out Mark's new app, Purpose. I think it's available now, right?

[Mark Manson]

Yep, it's available now. Purpose App. And then I'm everywhere. So solve podcast episodes every week and then we have or almost every week and then go markmanson.net, got newsletter I'm on everywhere.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Good for you, man. That's awesome. Well, clearly your work is impacting so many people. Clearly it's meaningful to millions of people out there. So thank you for what you're doing and this was a great conversation. Yeah.

[Abby]

Thanks for sitting down with us.

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

Thanks, guys. Thanks, Mark.

[Abby]

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[Mark Manson]

We help you reach your true potential. How are you feeling?

[Abby]

It's good to be Hawaii.

[Mark Manson]

Hey, new girl. Hey.

[Abby]

Look at what you've done to yourself. For a new plant to grow, the

[Co-host (possibly Matt or another interviewer)]

seed has to die.

[Abby]

Slanted. Rated R Only in theaters March 13th. Side effects may occur.