Modern Masculinity, Feminism, & Raising Boys in 2026

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby

Episode: Modern Masculinity, Feminism, & Raising Boys in 2026
Release Date: March 18, 2026
Hosts: Matt & Abby Howard

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Episode Overview

In this candid and heartfelt episode, Matt and Abby explore the evolving concepts of masculinity, feminism, and the challenges of raising boys in 2026. Drawing on their experiences as parents of two young boys, they unpack how shifting societal expectations impact families, the importance of redefining healthy masculinity, fostering empathy and critical thinking, and their hopes for the next generation. The conversation is nuanced, compassionate, and refreshingly honest, blending humor and vulnerability as the hosts navigate both their memories and modern realities.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Man-Hating” Culture and Overcorrection (03:24–08:16)

• Abby’s Perspective: As a mother, Abby expresses sadness about what she perceives as a “man-hating” culture. She highlights frequent, casual generalizations like “I hate men,” and her worry for her young boys growing up amidst this messaging.
  • Quote: “If a guy hurts you, let’s not extend that to the entire gender. My 2 and 3 year old are building their sense of self right now… I'd never want that to happen.” (00:50, Abby)
• Matt’s View: Matt acknowledges the social pendulum swinging in response to historical issues—first extreme patriarchy, now at times an overcorrection towards men.
  • Quote: “The pendulum swung too far in one side, now it's swinging too far to the other side to overcorrect… but I think that's warranted.” (07:56, Matt)

2. Historical Context: Women’s Advancements & the Changing Role of Men (09:31–10:32)

• Legal Milestones: Abby and Matt reflect on how recently women gained autonomy (e.g., access to bank accounts, credit, voting rights).
• Pride for Women’s Progress: Abby remarks, "Look what we've done in 50 years since we've gotten… it's like they literally finally allowed us in, and it's like, look at what we've done. Women can succeed, but we don't have to crush men beneath our feet to do so.” (10:15, Abby)
• Both Can Thrive: The hosts promote an “abundance mindset” — there’s space for both genders to succeed.

3. Redefining Healthy Masculinity in 2026 (11:28–14:34)

• Financial Provision Isn’t Everything: Matt stresses that masculinity isn’t just about financial provision. He highlights the importance of loving one’s children and being a role model.
  • Quote: “There’s all these men right now that feel like they're failing because they're not providing financially for their family as much as their wife. And that is b.s. There's so much more to providing." (11:28, Matt)
• Modern Masculinity: Now that women are often more educated and earning more, masculine roles need to include emotional intelligence, service, and support.
• Crisis for Young Men: Abby references Scott Galloway’s work, noting higher rates of loneliness, addiction, and suicide among men, emphasizing the need for emotional openness and therapy for men.
  • Quote: “Men are 12 times more likely to be incarcerated than women, and 4 times more likely to die by suicide… That’s heartbreaking.” (13:09, Abby and Matt)

4. The Parenting Philosophy: Family Values & Raising Boys (20:14–23:47)

• “Howards Are…” Mantra: Abby describes how instead of focusing on “don’t do this,” their discipline centers around positive identities (Patient, Kind, Generous, Gentle, Brave, Obedient).
  • Quote: “Our family mantra…Howards are patient, kind, generous… It really helped. We’ve since extended it to gentle… especially when it comes to girls.” (20:14–22:47, Abby)
• Redirection & Emotional Literacy: They practice teaching kids to name feelings and use calming strategies, like breathing exercises. “You can be angry, but you can’t be mean.” (27:56, Abby)

5. Fostering Empathy, Service, and Leadership (34:53–44:38)

• Intentional Teaching: Abby emphasizes actively teaching empathy to boys, especially in conflict: “How do you think that made someone feel? Check on them, make sure they're okay…” (35:49, Abby)
• Service in the Home & Community: The Howards model and expect service and contribution in daily life (e.g., helping with groceries, showing care to others).
  • Quote: “A big part of their role as a man is to serve… they should know that part of being a man is serving those around you, and specifically serving the women around you.” (43:08, Abby)

6. Navigating Gender, Identity, and Sensitivity (31:12–33:39)

• Differences Between Boys and Girls: Abby acknowledges developmental and behavioral trends she observes between boys and girls, while also emphasizing individual variation and the importance of not being afraid to talk about these differences.
• Supporting Identity Play: The hosts agree not to overreact to kids’ wishes to play with non-stereotypical toys or roles — “Wearing a dress is not what makes you feminine… And not wearing a dress is not what makes you masculine.” (41:54, Abby)

7. Therapy, Vulnerability & Modeling Healthy Masculinity (61:08–63:47)

• Making Therapy Normal: Both advocate for men, especially dads, modeling openness about therapy and emotional growth.
  • Quote: “When you go to therapy… you’re making that normal… Making it healthy and making that okay.” (61:41, Abby)
• You Can’t Be Your Partner’s Therapist: Matt emphasizes the importance of diverse support systems and not relying on spouses to fulfill every emotional need.
  • Quote: “I don’t think your spouse can be your therapist therapist. You cannot expect your spouse to meet each and every emotional need you have, man or woman.” (63:47, Matt)

8. Social Media's Role and the Importance of Nuance (65:20–66:45)

• Algorithms & Outrage: Abby reflects on how social algorithms amplify drama and generalizations, contributing to divisiveness and hardening gender stereotypes.
• Building Bridges: Matt closes with the value of listening to diverse viewpoints and the danger of further polarization.
  • Quote: "We don’t need to continue to divide up as a country and as a world. We need to build bridges… and talk about these things.” (67:46, Matt)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Abby, on redefining gender wars:
  “Women can succeed, but we don’t have to crush men beneath our feet to do so. There is space for both of us.” (10:15)

• Matt, on emotional intelligence:
  “Most women… want a man that provides comfort and maturity and… emotionally intelligent. Or they are. Most women, to generalize, most women want that.” (14:14)

• Abby, on family discipline:
  “Our family mantra… Howards are patient, kind, generous, obedient, and gentle… And as they get older, we add more.” (36:45)

• Matt, on service:
  “Opening my door… Teaching them to help put away the groceries with dad or help hold open the door for mom like dad does for Mom.” (43:26)

• Abby, on empowering boys:
  “I want them to feel empowered in their unique role as a man. I want them to feel empowered in that. And I feel like a man that’s properly empowered is not one that is going to be abusive.” (60:51–61:09)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|-----------------------------------------------| | 03:24 | “Man-hating” culture and motherly concerns | | 09:31 | Historical gains for women, perspective shift | | 11:28 | Redefining masculinity, financial provision | | 12:51 | Masculinity crisis for young men | | 14:34 | Changing marriage trends and education gaps | | 20:14 | Family values & positive discipline | | 31:12 | Gender differences in toddlers | | 34:53 | Teaching empathy and modeling it for boys | | 43:08 | Service as masculine virtue | | 61:08 | Therapy, modeling vulnerability for children | | 65:20 | Social media’s role in gender conflict | | 66:55 | Why Abby wants to raise masculine boys | | 67:46 | Final thoughts: embracing discussion & unity |

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Tone & Style

Matt and Abby bring warmth, humor, and transparency to their conversation. They make space for vulnerability (“I’m not an expert”) and acknowledge the evolving nature of both gender roles and their own parenting. Their tone is non-dogmatic, conversational, sometimes self-deprecating or teasing, but always rooted in shared love for their family and a desire to foster connection rather than further division.

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Summary Takeaways

• Society’s gender pendulum is swinging; overcorrection is real, but empathy for both sides is crucial.
• Healthy masculinity needs redefining in light of changing economic and social realities.
• Empathy, service, emotional regulation, and critical thinking are essential values for boys (and girls).
• Parenting should focus on clear, positive values and empower both sons and daughters without denigrating either gender.
• Social media amplifies outrage and stereotypes, making nuance and real conversation more important than ever.
• Modeling therapy and emotional openness is a vital gift to children, especially boys.
• Abby and Matt’s honest, in-progress approach underscores that parenting—and navigating gender in 2026—is about learning together.

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This summary captures all major themes, memorable moments, and highlights from “Modern Masculinity, Feminism, & Raising Boys in 2026” on The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby.

Transcript

[A]

Thank you to Time4Learning for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Schooling is one of the most important decisions you make for your children and I'm really excited about the option Time for Learning. We are coming to that point where our kids are getting ready to enter pre K and there's all these decisions to make. And I love that we're in this day and age where there are so many options. But I'm also very overwhelmed by it. But I'm really excited about Time4Learning because they have everything you need to teach Pre K through 12th grade at home, but with all the core and elective classes offered in a traditional brick and mortar school. I love that option because you get the structure that that you would like with a traditional school format, but with a personalized, intimate setting of homeschooling. And that's because Time4Learning believes in harnessing the flexibility of homeschool to help families explore passions, travel and hobbies without the constraints of traditional school hours. It can also be used for more than homeschooling. It is also used for school or summer learning to address learning gaps or maintain skills. It was created by experts for parents. With over 1 million students served. Time 4 learning is also super user friendly. It can go on your computer or on your phone and they have really easy to read calendars for the day or the month. It has a progress bar so you can see where your kids are at, what they've completed and what they still have yet to do. I think it's a really, really great options for families that are looking for that flexibility and that nuance in their child's education. So if you're Also curious if Time4Learning is right for your family, visit Time4Learning.com that's Time Number 4Learning.com to explore their curriculum and find the perfect plan for your student. You can get started with a monthly subscription to see just how much your kids enjoy learning on their own terms. If a guy hurts you, let's not extend that to the entire gender. My 2 and my 3 year old are building their sense of self right now here. Like, I hate men. Men are the worst. And then be like, there's something wrong with me. I'd never want that to happen.

[B]

There's all these men right now that feel like they're failing because they're not providing financially for their family as much as their wife. And that is bs. There's so much more to providing for your family than financial.

[A]

We want men, we want masculine men. But I think that in 2026. We need to redefine healthy masculinity, especially as our roles have society. What's up, dudes?

[B]

And welcome back to Unplanned.

[A]

Woo.

[B]

Is that fun? Should we rebrand the unplanned with just like the one word, unplanned? I've actually wanted to do that for a while and I've gotten nervous. I don't know why, but I think it'd be kind of fun just if this just said unplanned.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think we do. I think we should do it.

[A]

Do it.

[B]

Do you guys approve it? Let us know in the comments.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Speaking of the comments, everyone that's been leaving reviews, we really appreciate you. That helps us so much. That's like a free way. You can support the show by just telling people why you like it on Spotify or Apple. And then especially another free way is just subscribing. If you're listening on YouTube, the subscribe button really helps us out. We're actually trying to hit a million subscribers this year, and if we do, I think we need to do something special for our team because we're growing, we're trying to make better.

[A]

What are we at right now?

[B]

We're at 800 something thousand, 830,000.

[A]

I think we can do it.

[B]

So I don't know. I've seen other podcasts where they like throw a party for their team or they take their team on a trip. Maybe we'll take our team on a trip. If we hit. If we hit that number. We should make a goal too, for always here. Because I. I don't know, I think I just want to celebrate that and I want to be around for a while because it's fun connecting with you guys. It's fun interviewing the guests that we have on these shows. I can't believe we get to sit down with the people that get to sit down with. But we got a very exciting honor conversation today. Abby, what are we talking about today?

[A]

Well, a couple years back. Gosh, it's been two years at this point, I think, right?

[B]

No, it was three years ago.

[A]

Three years ago. Wow. The time is. Time is an illusion at this point. Yeah. But we had posted a clip from this podcast where I was just, you know, running my mouth. We are literally living in a man hating culture. And as a mother to a son, that makes my heart really sad. My son. Watch me.

[B]

Oh, it's okay. It's okay. You got this. You got this.

[A]

I would hope that my son could grow up and there could Be males and females uplifting him and rooting him on and not hating him for his gender or, you know, thinking a certain way about him because he's a man. Let's actually get into this.

[B]

What's the context?

[A]

Let's get into it because here's my thing. I am so pro women. I love women. And yeah, I'm the biggest girls. Girl. Like, I'm. I'm just. I just. I'm going to take a girl's side if we're. If we're totally honest.

[B]

You. You really are.

[A]

I will public, publicly take a girl's side, but then quietly put them aside. Be like.

[B]

I've heard you say, like, I just. Like, women are just better than men. Like, yeah, I just heard you.

[A]

Yeah, I've said that.

[B]

Definitely said that.

[A]

You know, there's a part of me that believes that.

[B]

Are you sexist? Yes, you are. But that's okay. I mean, like, I fully support your belief that women are better than men.

[A]

Let me get my thoughts.

[B]

I'm okay with you believing that.

[A]

I want to fully acknowledge that, like, women that have been hurt by men, like, I. That that angers me so, so, so much.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that.

[A]

That fully. Those men should be held accountable that are abusive, that are dominating, that are just completely inconsiderate. Like, there's just so many things. It's like that. That fully enrages me, especially when it

[B]

comes to assault, too. Like, some of these instances, you just look into what happens if you watch documentaries on abuses of that. It's just. It's sick. It's. I can't even watch it half the time.

[A]

That makes me so mad. And so I want to recognize that the people that are feeling. I think there's two categories of people that I view as, like, man hating and, like, I want to fully recognize that a big population is people that have been hurt by men, by boyfriends, by husbands, by men misusing their power and also their fathers. That breaks my heart. The fact that the role of a father to a daughter, like that, that can start.

[B]

Oh, it's disgusting. It's disgusting.

[A]

And so I wanted to recognize that, like, a lot of that can start from literally an infant. When you have a terrible view of your father, they were not a good role model to you. Your dad represents so much to you. Like, even as you grow up into an adulthood, you're like, this is the person that is, like, kind of setting a standard now. Like, we can change that standard as we get older, have therapy, have new experiences that are better, but like, there's so much there. The other category of I want to put in quotes, man hate. If that's not appropriate, someone tell me to say that. But I honestly feel like that's just kind of how I'm interpreting it personally is people that are reacting to society now in this overcorrection. The people that are just, like, now a part of. Like, it's okay now. Like, I'm telling you, I cannot tell you how many times a day where it's like, I hate men. Women say that all the time. I hate men. I hate. Men are the worst. Like, what? We don't need men.

[B]

What's an example of that? Like, why women feel that way up Instagram right now? Just fill me in. Like, what's one. What's something that you see?

[A]

You don't see it on your. On social media scroll.

[B]

Social media. I play video games now instead. Like, in my doom, scroll is playing video games, which is just as bad, if not worse. I literally. My screen time's like, zero. It's been.

[A]

Take a drink every time Abby gets the ick right.

[B]

I know. It's funny. Like, we used to. I used to brag about. I was like, yeah, Abby thinks video games are a huge turnoff. And just. Just like, the past six months, I've

[A]

been like, you've been playing with your brother?

[B]

I love gaming with my bros. Literally, my brother.

[A]

But what I'm saying is that now, at least for me, what I see in other women. You can comment down below if you see the same thing too, or if you don't, then also, like, feel this can be a discussion. I'm not offended by this. Also, this is just how I'm interpreting the society that we're living in. And so. But the other is, like, now it's like, okay for people to say, like, literally women to say, I hate men. It's actually, like, totally okay. And men are supposed to just sit there and be like, yeah. Whereas, like, if a man were to say, I hate women, we'd all be

[B]

like, yeah, you get burned at the stake. No, but it would just. Now someone's gonna clip that. Someone's gonna clip that right there.

[A]

It's just not. And I. And I recognize, like, this is a tale as old as time where something is wrong and we finally recognize that as a society, and then it's pitchforks and fire, and then we're back at the other side of this.

[B]

Can I be a devil's advocate?

[A]

Of course.

[B]

I feel like. So the pendulum swung too far in one side. Now it's swinging too far to the other side to like overcorrect totally. But I think that's warranted. Like, I think a pendulum needs to keep swinging until it slows down. It slows down, then eventually it stops.

[A]

I'm speaking though as a mom who has a two and a three year old boy at the time that this pendulum is swinging on this side.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so my little boys are hearing, I hate men. Men are the worst. We don't need men. We don't need blah, blah, blah. And I'm. And here's the thing, Matt. This is reflected in data. So like Scott Galloway does a lot of. I was actually the first thing that actually put words to the things that I was like feeling and noticing in society was when Scott Galloway. I'm pretty sure that was who was on Scott Galloway.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was on CEO. This conversation was. I don't necessarily like, once again, I don't necessarily agree with every single thing on there or feel the same way about things, but like this finally put words and data to things that I was experiencing and feeling and noticing in

[B]

society, which we would love to have. Scott on the pod. Go spam Scott's DMs if you want. If you want him on our podcast. If enough people, seriously guys, like that's what's crazy about your influence on who we interview. Like, if you guys really want us to interview someone, let us know. Like, like the comment, make the comment, go to the top and we will. We can get them on the pod. Like if enough of you especially reach out to them because you want to see them on here is going to happen because you got like you. The people are so powerful. So thanks everybody for watching and we listen to everything you said to us, so thank you.

[A]

So let's go back like 50 years. So not during our lifetime, but like the very beginning of our parents, especially our grandmas, like their experience. They did not have access to information like they do now. No, not at all. They needed to get married for financial

[B]

security, which is so sad. Imagine getting married to a subpar man just because he was a means of survival.

[A]

Here's the fact that women in the United States legally gained the ability to open bank accounts, apply for credit cards and obtain loans without a male cosigner. With the passage of the Equal Credit opportunity Act in 1974. That was not that long ago, Abby.

[B]

That's goodness. That's about 50 years.

[A]

And look what women have done in that amount of time.

[B]

50 years. And women have 52 years to be exact. Holy crap.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. Like, it's something that I feel, like, immense pride for women for. Like, look what we've done in 50 years since we've gotten. We've gotten the. It's like they literally finally allowed us in, and it's like, look at what we've done. Women can succeed, but we don't have to crush men beneath our feet to do so.

[B]

That's good Snaps.

[A]

Like, there is space for both of us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I feel like that abundance mentality.

[B]

That's what that is. You have the abundance mindset. Sorry for interrupting.

[A]

No, you're good. Keep talking.

[B]

There's all these men right now that feel like they're failing because they're not providing financially for their family as much as their wife. And that is b. S. There's so much more to providing for your family than. Than financial. You can. You can do so so much. And I think if you view it as, like, whatever it is as a man that you're doing to give back to your wife and your kids, that that's all that matters. It doesn't matter if it's money, because if your wife makes the money, cool. Are you loving your kids? Are you showing them a good example of what a man is for the future, for what you want future them to be? Okay. That's your number one goal right there. And if you're doing that, that's all the providence your kids need.

[A]

Yes. And I feel like that is where my heart in this issue truly lies. Not wanting to, like, crush our son's masculinity. Like, I want to build that up. I want. I want them to be masculine. I want our boys to be masculine. But I think that in 2026, that needs to be redefined because we've, like, we've talked about. Throughout this entire episode, this pendulum has been swinging. So, like, when our parents and our grandparents, it was like, men, you. Your job is to provide financially, to put the roof over their head, to be, like, a fierce protector. Maybe even this was misdefined in some ways as, like, dominance or, like, there's some of those harmful parts of it, too, where it was like, oh, like, you know what you say, go. Everyone has to just bow down and listen. It's just like this, like, dangerous assertiveness. Whereas now we need to redefine healthy masculinity, especially as our roles have changed in society, because now that women are more educated, and I'm talking in general, more educated and making more money like, there's a different role for you.

[B]

Are you are more educated than me and you make more money than me.

[A]

Warrants a redefinition of masculinity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because, like, now it's proven, like, the men in their 20s are floundering. And actually, a lot of Scott Galloway's, like, messaging is geared towards men in their 20s because what do they define them as? Like, basically, like, unmarriable men. Like, they really just are kind of lost.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

His big thing is he's saying that young men are facing a severe overlooked crisis with really high rates of addiction, loneliness, and failure to launch. And he actually cites that men are 12 times more likely to be incarcerated than women and 4 times more likely to die by suicide, which is actually

[B]

really, really sad when you think about it.

[A]

Of course it is. That's heartbreaking.

[B]

Imagine one of our sons being incarcerated or, like, taking their own life. Like, can you. Can you imagine? Like, that's. That's a problem with. With men. It's really sad. But I think really what men need more of which I think there's stuff that women can do to support men. But I think if we're going to talk about men for a second, I think what men need more of is. Is to go to therapy, talk, talk about their feelings, not. Not ignore them, not. Not, like, just disregard them. I think it's so toxic, this idea that, like, men can't cry. I'm, like, starting to embrace more of my, like, emotions now that I'm older, but I feel like I. I don't. I don't know what it was. I don't know if it was society, my parents, my. My, like, community. I don't know what it is, but I, like, as a man, I still feel like it's weak and not masculine to cry, but I think I'm learning. I think I'm learning that, like, it's okay to embrace those emotions. And I think, really, women want emotionally intelligent men. They don't want these men that just completely ignore all feeling. Now. I think women want a safe man. They want a man that provides comfort and maturity and, like, just. Just confidence that everything's gonna be okay. But along with that, though, they need their men to be emotionally intelligent. Or they are. Most women, to generalize. Most women want that.

[A]

Mm. Well, yes, because the fact is, is, like, now that women don't need men to literally have a roof over their head to achieve any type of status in life or any type of thing. You know what I mean? Like, they used to need to basically ride on the backs of men.

[B]

Yeah, you literally don't need me. You could, you could divorce yourself.

[A]

The fact is that women are still choosing to marry because we want men. Like we want good men, we want masculine men. But we need to have this redefinition and we need to have this conversation. And I can recognize where saying like this is a man hating world can come across as like not fully understanding the breadth of where this comes from. And so that's why it's important to have these conversations and understand the nuance related to it. But the fact is, Matt, is that college educated women still tend to get married. They just get married a little bit later in life. About 20 to 25% of college educated women marry men with less education. And I'm sure that's going to continue to grow. I think we're going to see this gap more and more.

[B]

That's you. That's our sister in law, Addie. She has her master's. Your brother doesn't have a master's. I didn't graduate. You did. And like my mom, that's my parents baby. My mom is a civil engineer. Like she's extremely intelligent. I guess they both graduated degrees, but my mom's degree was like twice as hard as my dad's. 10 times more hard. Like I don't know. Yeah, I think there's like, there's definitely a trend there for sure.

[A]

Yeah. But women are still choosing to get married. Thank you to ZOCDOC for sponsoring this portion of today's episode.

[B]

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[A]

You've also just done well visits with him too.

[B]

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[A]

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[A]

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[B]

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[B]

top comment on the video that went viral is a Taylor Swift quote. It says if guys don't want me to write bad songs about them, they shouldn't do bad things. Which fair. Yeah, that's good probably. Yeah, don't be a bad dude.

[A]

Here's my other issue I take with some of I'm not saying with Taylor Swift. Like there's not if someone, if a guy hurts you, yeah, you can make a song about it, but let's not extend that to the entire gender.

[B]

Yeah, I actually like T. Swift a lot.

[A]

We have learned not to generalize across many different categories like ability, race, age, all these things. Yet gender is the one where now it's okay to generalize but only with men.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's where I'm coming from, where it's like, okay, you have a terrible experience with somebody, with a person, and it's like, well, he's a dude. It's because he's a man. And it's like, this isn't. It's not. That's not fair. That's not right. That's not even true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that's where my concern is, like, with having a 2 and a 3 year old as we're, as we're. This pendulum is swinging this day. Like my two and my three year old building their sense of self right now. Their. Their internal dialogue, who they are, how they fit in this world, what their role is. And that's all that is forming right now at this snapshot in time where the pendulum is over here. That's my concern. That's why I'm speaking out about it. You know what I mean? It's not because I'm like, I'm disregarding. I don't want to disregard women. I just don't think that we have to put down men to bring up women. We are up, we are thriving. We are doing amazing. And so it's like. But it doesn't have to come at the cost of men, in my opinion.

[B]

So how do you, as a mom of two boys, direct them to be good men? How do you point them in the right direction? Because it's kind of confusing. If you tell your kid, don't be this, don't be this, don't be this.

[A]

No, that doesn't work.

[B]

So what do you point them towards?

[A]

That's the thing actually, with our parenting that I'm always trying to redirect. I catch myself doing it a lot where I'm like, stop. Don't know, don't. Like all those things where it's like, that's really confusing for them, like, don't do this. Well, then what am I supposed to do? And so they might continue to do that behavior because you're just like, stop. No, no. And then. So now I'm always trying to redirect my discipline towards them to say, like, do this, do this. We are this. And so that's more clear, I feel like, and I've talked about this before, but we have like a family mantra. And I really feel like this has been very beneficial to us and all sorts of misbehaviors or behaviors that we want to redirect. And that is Howards are. And then we've continued to add, we have Howards are Patient. Howards are kind, and Howards are generous. Those were, like, the first we started off with, because it was just like a lot of the early misbehaviors you see in toddlers, which are like, first of all patients, it's like, mom, no, no, no, no, no, no. And so it's like, oh, Howard's our patient. Try that again. And then they'll say, like, excuse me. And we really are very gentle with that because we know that they need some gratification right away. But just patient became obvious. Kind became really, like, hitting and just like, general, like, yelling nastiness. Like, that's impulsive that every human does. And so that be kindness kind of covered a lot of those bases. And then also generous, because sharing is, like, really hard for little kids. And so those really helped. We've since extended it to gentle because also, we're raising boys, and I feel like. Like, we can't deny the fact that, like, raising little boys is different from raising little girls. Like, they. They're. It doesn't. This doesn't fit in one box always. But in a lot of experiences with little boys, like, they're. They're more prone to rowdiness, to being physical with their bodies, to wrestling.

[B]

Wait, what's the. What's the song? He goes. The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, stamina, self control. Against some, there is no wrong. Isn't that it?

[A]

Never heard that in my life.

[B]

You've never heard that.

[A]

Wonderful. Let's use that.

[B]

I went to private Christian school.

[A]

Well, let's Starting that.

[B]

So, like, I feel like. But I feel like those are, like, some timeless principles that you pull from.

[A]

For sure. That's definitely where I pull these from.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we added gentleness.

[B]

We need to be gentle.

[A]

We added gentleness, especially when it comes

[B]

to girls, especially that you do that.

[A]

And I think that's. And I think that's also how we're raising good boys.

[B]

Does that make me toxic that I go. We do not hit, but especially not girls.

[A]

No. You said that one time. I was like, matt, keep that. That's great, because I think it's great that our boys are instilled with a sense of protectiveness over females. I think that's great. And that is a really great example of healthy masculinity. Like, we are protective over them. This doesn't mean that we dominate them. We're cruel towards them, we flex our muscles over them. Or, like, we like that we protect them. That is our role. And I think that's beautiful. As a woman, I am very happy and pleased to feel protected by you and like. And I think that this has just been twisted so much and it's been misused and men have, over certain men in the past have messed this up. And I feel like been made to think that that's a bad thing.

[B]

And I feel like another thing that can be like, quote unquote toxic in a more quote unquote traditional marriage is like men loving being served by their wife. But I think that that, like word of service can. Can mean so many, so many things. And I think it only comes if you're being a respectful man. I think, I think where, where this like, deep distrust from men comes is women that would like, serve their husband, but their husband wasn't serving them back.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that is very toxic and very harmful.

[A]

And that service can look different.

[B]

And up until recently, women could not speak up.

[A]

Oh, totally.

[B]

Because we just like women couldn't have bank accounts in America until the 70s, which was.

[A]

And so 52 years ago, so many more.

[B]

So voting. Gosh. My, my great grandpa was born in 23.

[A]

And I think my great grandma leadership.

[B]

I think my great grandma was born in 24. And so I want to say, goodness, was she born. When did women get the right to vote?

[A]

And just use Google, Matt. It was 19.

[B]

When do women get the right to vote? 19 19.

[A]

I think so 19 20. Okay.

[B]

Women gained the right to vote in the United States in 1920 with the ratification of the 19th Amendment to the United States Constitution. It states that the right to vote cannot be denied based on sex. And that was babe. That's literally 100 years ago. 106 years ago.

[A]

That's the year they got the right to vote. Think about how long it takes to change laws and practices and women to eventually be in roles of leadership in our politics.

[B]

I'm not.

[A]

Let me add, our other Howards are, and that is Howards are obedient. Because I also think that it's really important for boys and girls, but I think maybe even more so boys to know that, like, you have to fall under something. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like you have to be obedient to someone bigger than you. Someone higher than you.

[B]

Yeah. A rule book. There's a rulebook for you?

[A]

Yeah. There's rules for you to follow.

[B]

Yeah. And I think honestly, these rules are pretty universal. Like, I think if you ask people what it looks like to be a good person, if you look at belief systems across cultures, 99% of the stuff is the exact same. And that's why I was asking AI babe, I was like, help me understand what's going on here, because there's clearly like a tension that exists right now in the world. And I asked ChatGPT, why is there a tension between wanting to raise strong, confident men and the societal pressure that often labels traditional male traits as toxic? And it says it's because there's two different cultural reactions that are happening at the same time. Society is trying to correct past problems with masculinity, but in doing so, it sometimes creates confusion about the health, what healthy masculinity looks like. But the reality is like these, these big reactions, this stem from reaction to genuine harmful. Like initially this was because of genuine harmful behavior by men with aggression, with emotional suppression, dominance, intimidation. And then it just kind of equated some people to thinking of, like, manhood as, like, as control or violence and just these, like, negative, these negative traits. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, you can talk more about those. Things are bad. But boys today still need to have leadership skills.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Boys today still need to have confidence. Boys today still need to. They needed then and they especially need it now. Emotional regulation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and so that's where I feel like this conversation needs to. Needs to shift towards like, like I keep saying, like, what does masculinity look like this year?

[B]

It makes me so happy whenever our boys are struggling with anger, when I hear them start to do their breathing exercises. Yeah, it's so cute.

[A]

That's really why I'm very specific about having them name how they feel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it' because I'm like some fluffy parent.

[B]

Like, I want you to fairy godmother parent. You're not, you're not crunchy. You're not a hippie.

[A]

Well, no, I'm all of that.

[B]

You're very white mom from Illinois. From the, from the Midwest.

[A]

That's not true.

[B]

What's wrong with that? I think that's so sweet.

[A]

No, but I think it's very important that they name their emotions. And so this is where that emotional regulation comes from.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So when I hear them, like we've been experiencing a lot in our household is when they're experiencing anger, we hear growling. Or obviously it can escalate to like, lashing out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so we always say, our line all the time is like, you can be angry, but you can't be mean.

[B]

Can we just talk about how we have a growling problem?

[A]

Growling problem in our house.

[B]

When did the growling. When did you first notice the growling?

[A]

It's Honestly, been fairly recent.

[B]

Why, like, was it two weeks ago that I just noticed a consistent.

[A]

And then we had a conversation between the two of us where it was like, is this something we correct? And I feel like it's not something we necessarily correct. It's more of, like, we help them name it and understand what they're experiencing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So now when they grab growl, I'm like, are you feeling angry?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, rather problem.

[B]

Rather than attacking our kid and being like, stop growling. Stop growing. We do not growl. Growers don't growl. No, we're just like, hey, how are you feeling?

[A]

Approachable.

[B]

What's going on?

[A]

Like, are you. Are you feeling angry?

[B]

And maybe given. Maybe like, hey, we're gonna. Let's. We're gonna do. We're gonna breathe together. Okay. Rainbow breath. Here we go. 1, 2, 3, 4. Like, you know, counting slowly.

[A]

Yeah, they do take deep breaths.

[B]

And I love it when I go, wow, I feel better now. And they go, I feel better.

[A]

And then they'll like, I feel better.

[B]

And they do. They actually feel better.

[A]

Take a breath. We will have them. Sometimes we're like, do you just need to take, like, take a break? Do you want to go do something by yourself for a little bit?

[B]

You know, it's so funny. Abbie, is like, these simple skills we're teaching our kids. Sometimes you're like, man, this is, like. This works for adults.

[A]

You know, Same principles.

[B]

Apply breathing. Doing some breathing exercises when you're stressed. Like, maybe rather than, you know, if you're like, a wine mom or a beer dad, like, on a Friday night where you're like, I am so effing over this crap's going on. Like, you're, like, unwinding with, you know, a substance. Like, it's like, you know, you could just do a breathing technique.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Same result. Seriously. Seriously, though, another thing. I'm preaching to the choir here. Drinks a lot, you know, so I'm

[A]

just never, literally, don't. Not interested in it.

[B]

But you told me that you were gonna never drink alcohol, and then I. I'm so bad. I got you to drink champagne with me on our. On our honeymoon, and then you've been hooked ever since.

[A]

That's not true. It's not even funny. But so also, I think about, like, if we're leaving a place that our kids are having a lot of fun, it's not uncommon for them to, like, throw themselves on the ground. You know, big reactions.

[B]

And so help.

[A]

Instead of just getting on that behavior, I'm first, like, urging myself to, like, reminding myself to just be like, hey, are you feeling disappointed?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's like, man, I hate leaving a place that I'm having a lot of fun at and just like trying to help them understand what they're experiencing emotionally in their bodies.

[B]

Abby, sometimes I wonder my purpose in these conversations because I literally could just hand you the mic and you could do a TED Talk. Like, you're such a good speaker. I think it. Cause I don't know, even I'll like, review. I'll do editorial review of our podcast and I'm like, I'm just speaking some stupid stuff and you're out here like just dropping line after line.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no. But what I'm saying is that it's really important for me that my boys understand their thoughts because I do already notice a difference. This is just my experience, but I do already notice a difference in my two and three year old boys. And then our friends that have two and three year old girls.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Isn't that crazy? Like, just the nature of boys and girls acting completely differently.

[A]

This is. And here's the thing. Why does it feel. It shouldn't feel scary for me to say this publicly.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Wait, why is it.

[A]

But it does feel that way.

[B]

Fill me in on why it's scary. I'm. I'm not freaking.

[A]

Well, I'm just saying it feels that way to wreck. It feels scary to recognize like there is a developmental difference between boys and little boys and little girls.

[B]

But why is there?

[A]

Well, just because the subject of gender is very touchy and very sensitive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's very. It's deeply personal. But I'm just speaking from our experience of watching our little boys grow up next to little girls. And I. I always describe it as. This is also such a big generality.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This isn't. We have friends that have little boys that are very, very sensitive and very, like, very emotional. Very emotional, very gentle. Like all these things that we typically ascribe to femininity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're very much a little boy too. So I'm speaking in general terms here, but I'm noticing this is the. This is the best way that I can generalize the difference. I notice. So say one of our kids gets hit, One of our boys gets hit.

[B]

What do you mean hit? Oh, like they're fighting.

[A]

A friend hit. A friend hit them. Ouch. That part of their body that they got hit hurts, and then as soon as it stops stinging, they're back to playing. Whereas I've noticed more in general are friends that have little girls that are two and three. Like, they get hit and then it stops stinging, but they're still crying because now their feelings are also hurt. Like, their friend chose to hurt them. Their friend used their body to harm them. And I'm noticing that that doesn't necessarily play as big of a role at this moment with our specific boys and some of my other friends that have had boys.

[B]

So you're a lot more emotionally intelligent than me and way more mature than me. So I'm gonna ask you this question because I feel like you would know the answer.

[A]

Quit giving me this. I'm not an expert.

[B]

No. But I just feel like you. I don't know, you're just smarter than me. Anyway, question. How do you raise emotionally intelligent, masculine men? Like, yeah, strong leaders, but then at the same time, recognize that there are gay kids out there.

[A]

This has nothing to do with sexuality, in my opinion.

[B]

Really? So do you raise. If you have a gay son, do you raise them to be masculine? Like, what? I don't even know what the answer is for that. How do you raise.

[A]

I don't know, like, because this just shows how you were raised with such a rigid view of masculinity, in my opinion.

[B]

Ooh, frick. Damn. I really was. Gosh dang it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm not. This isn't. This isn't a critique of your parents. This was the times, and I don't know why. And this is me saying that the times are now different. And here's the thing. If we don't change it, men are falling behind. That is like what we said earlier with Scott Galloway, like, with. With how men are not. They're falling behind.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he has all these factors that attribute to that. But let me get to your question. First of all, I am no expert. I have a 2 and a 3 year old. Let me just say this right now. My boys are little. They are not men. And there's. I'm not a good case study to say, like, oh, I know how to raise men. I'm still. I'm just figuring this out, and I just want to figure it out in real time with real parents of little kids. And so I just think that this should be a conversation. These are the conversations I'm having with my friends all the time. And so this is something that I'm interested in talking about also on our platforms. But what I'm saying is, first of all, I don't know the answer. Let's just Start by saying that I'm no expert in this area, but my first knee jerk response to you asking that question is that empathy needs to specifically be taught intentionally with boys. Empathy really, really working on that. And so with our kids, and I've noticed a lot of my friends doing this too. So I've learned this from them. It's like, okay, like you, for instance. Day one of our boys got in a physical altercation.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. I did not know this.

[A]

It's unlike them.

[B]

That happened today.

[A]

It's unlike them. But, you know, they're.

[B]

That's so sad. Was everybody okay?

[A]

Everyone was fine. And. But I think that no blood, right?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But it was just a sucker punch to the stomach. Got all.

[B]

What did we do? Did we do timeout for them to learn and think about what they did?

[A]

We actually just had a conversation. I didn't feel like there needed to be consequences. This one, because he didn't witness it.

[B]

They punched another kid and we didn't do a timeout.

[A]

He didn't. He was the one who got punched, actually. Oh. But it didn't. It's totally fine. So what I'm saying, did you feel

[B]

the urge to, like, be like, you better freaking put your hidden time out?

[A]

No, because I just was approaching with curiosity because I didn't see it. And so that's a really hard thing about, like, with little kids. You're like, kind of like, what actually did happen here? One of you is crying, One of you's like, saying, something happened. So, but what I'm saying is that, like, with kids, when these things happen, really intentionally teaching empathy of, like, how did. How do you think that made some feel? Check on them, make sure they're okay.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Like, we don't. How would. How would you feel if you were treated this way? And so, like, having to really, really be intentional, specifically with little boys, about teaching empathy for others. And I think that's. That's extremely important because I think I take for granted being a girl. Like, empathy is just maybe something that's just more naturally running through my veins than, like, boys necessarily.

[B]

You are so much more empathetic than me. I have so much to learn from you. Like, where did you learn the deep empathy that you have?

[A]

That's what I'm saying.

[B]

I just think, is there. Was there a woman in your life, like, was it your mom, your grandma,

[A]

that I was treated with empathy? And so, like. And I was parented with empathy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I also think this is, like, maybe just a natural Thing. It was also observed, but I'm just saying that. That with boys being intentional about that.

[B]

So our family rules, to sum all that up is Howards are patient, kind, generous, obedient, and gentle.

[A]

It doesn't matter the order, because they're never actually used in order, if that makes sense. It's always like, we're isolating one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, in practice.

[B]

But it's good. Like, we should frame that. We should have those, like.

[A]

Well, it also keep changing as they

[B]

get older, but maybe we, like, frame it and then we put, like, some lines underneath to show that, like, we. That it can evolve. Like, who we are as a family can evolve.

[A]

I think it needs to be confusing, but we also have a couple other mantras. I did not. I took this from another family. I can't remember the first family I learned this from. But we always say Howards do hard things, where it's like, oh, if they don't. We don't really struggle with this a lot because we do have very, like, very confident, brave little boys. But if they're like, I think this is. I think about this when we had signed them up for soccer and they didn't want to do it, let's add in brave.

[B]

Howards are brave. I like that.

[A]

Well, this comes up to. Yeah, we say that all the time. I'm like, you're brave.

[B]

I resonate things. I think it's just, like, unprocessed trauma or just, like, stuff I need to work through in therapy. But, like, something about being brave, like, I resonate with that attribute because I feel like being brave makes me feel like I can. Like, I can mean something, do something. Like, it makes me. I don't know. It gets me excited. It's scary to be brave, but I think it's admirable to do, to be brave for the right reasons, to go in and, like, make a difference in the world and be a good person.

[A]

Yeah. Honestly, actually, the book I'm reading is talking about the difference between bravery and courageous. Like, being brave and being. Having courage.

[B]

What is the difference?

[A]

I think that probably having courage is better because being brave is like, not feeling fear. Like, I'm not fearing it. But having courage is like feeling the fear and still doing it. People can disagree with this, but I do say to my boys, like, when things are, like, small, like, I say, it's not a big deal, because I feel like when you're a little new human to the world, like, everything can feel very alarming because everything is new, everything is scary. Everything is, like, Max volume. Right. Of like, oh, I have no frame of reference for this thing that's happened. And it. And it elicits, like, the largest response possible. That's toddlers. They're just walking, talking nervous systems. And so I feel like, as a parent, it's okay for me to acknowledge that, but then to also follow up with saying, it's actually not that big of a deal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so the area that. That falls in a lot, I feel like, in practice in our parenting, because I don't want to just speak in broad terms and not be specific about this, is like, the color of their vitamin, the color of their plate, the color of. It's like, okay, in general, I know that you like green and you like blue, but guess what? In the grand scheme of things, it's not a big deal. And so sometimes I do have to break that. And I had to intentionally break that with the vitamins because we didn't. Like, I was really like, okay, we're gonna find out what we get today.

[B]

I feel mean when I do this, babe. But, like, if our kid is throwing a fit to get something he wants, that's like, just so, like, I'm already caving. Like, they've asked for a second book during bedtime, and then they asked for a third one. It's like, guys, like, we're supposed to do one book. I gave you an extra one. It's past your bedtime already. Like, we played in the pool and it's 8:30 bedtime. We want to do 8pm but, you know, so it's just one of those things where then you almost have to pull the card of, okay, I guess we're not gonna do, like, maybe, oh, I'm about to read the second book. But they're begging. They're like, no, I don't want two. I want three books. And it's like, no, this is what we're doing. And then I have to say, okay, I guess we're not gonna have the book. Cause we're throwing a fit and we're not being respectful. And so I think it's like, you have to have those, like, uncomfortable conversations with your kid, but it's for their benefit. Even if it's just as simple as saying, like, hey, sorry, today you don't get the green cup.

[A]

So, like, what you're exactly saying is also the reason why I always tell our kids, first of all, everybody has consequences. Kids need to learn from an early age that, like, your behavior, your actions do have consequences.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it's Like, I don't want to protect them from that their entire childhood, only for them to be an adult and they take a misstep and then all of a sudden they're facing real world adult consequences and be like, what the heck? Like, I thought, thought I was immune to all this stuff. And so I always. But I also don't want them to receive consequences without understanding and love and empathy about it. Now I always say when they have a consequence, I'm like, I wanted to give you this, but everyone has consequences, right? And then I also follow up with the why behind consequences. And so that's where we have another mantra. I like literally repeat myself all the time with our kids, but I just really want to hound it in their heads and keep it simple. And I always say, why do we have consequences? And it's because becoming a good man starts when. And then they're like now. And so like we always talk about that.

[B]

And it's funny too, like talking about generals too. I want to say, like, it was either Griffin or Auggie that said they wanted to marry their brother. And it's like, I don't think you need to explain.

[A]

It's not that serious.

[B]

It's not that serious. Like, I think like maybe an old school view of that would be like, no, no, you can only marry a girl. Like, I don't know, you'd, like a parent would like freak out and be like, I don't know. It's just like, that's not like you can just talk about this stuff at age appropriate times. It's not a big deal.

[A]

It's very appropriate for them to want to marry their brother at the same time.

[B]

And if your 2 year old wants to throw on a dress because they're playing dress up and they're trying on dresses, totally fine. Spider man costumes and Batman costumes. You don't, you don't say no to the dress. You just let them put on the dress because they're just being a two year old.

[A]

Well, and also because wearing a dress is not what makes you feminine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And wearing, and wearing not, not wearing a dress is not what makes you masculine. Which brings us to the conversation of masculinity. Again.

[B]

I think a parent's role is love their kid and support them in really anything they want to do in a way that's like loving. And so I think if your kid, you know, says, like, well, I want to be a princess, you're gonna get eventually gotta break the news to them that princesses aren't real. Other than like the Queen of England. Why are you looking like that? But I think you, like, you love them through that, and you tell them that, like, you look at them, you. You view them as a princess, and you just want to see them, like, you know, not. Not just be happy, but, like, find purpose and meaning and love and joy and get back to the world.

[A]

Mm. So kind of to come back to what I was talking about earlier about, like, healthy masculinity. I think that includes empathy and consideration. Consider deep consideration for everyone around you, because I think a big part of healthy masculinity should be service.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that's why I talk to our boys all the time. Like, for instance, when we had groceries at the front door, I expected our boys to carry the groceries for me from the front door to the kitchen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I kept saying, thank you, gentlemen. Thank you, gentlemen. Because he should know that as they should know as males, like, a big part of their role and as a. As a man is to serve. And so I'm always like, yeah, you should serve me by carrying my groceries, which is great.

[B]

Opening my door, which is really, really good. I love that we're teaching them to, like, be a part of our household and help put away the groceries with dad or to help hold open the door for mom like dad does for Mom.

[A]

And I always am sure to say thank you, gentlemen.

[B]

But in addition to that, I think something that we're not doing that we can do a better job of is in addition to our financial giving, because we've been giving a portion of our revenue every year since the beginning of our social media journey, We've been giving a portion of our revenue to charity every year, but we don't give a portion of our time. In addition to the financial backing, we're giving to different charities that we love, like St. Jude, Charity, Water, Givewell. These are all charities that we've given generously, too, because we just care about making the world a better place. And we've done podcasts with two of the. Yeah, we did a St. Jude podcast, a charity water podcast. We haven't done a podcast yet for GiveWell, but I'd love to do a podcast for them because really, really love what they do. But I think having that, like, physical component as a family, like, on Saturdays, we go and we help the local food bank for two hours, and then our kids can learn that aspect of service and how important that is to give back to the world. I think that's really important.

[A]

I think it's really, really important. We Definitely need. I've talked about this before. Like, that is something that we definitely need to improve on and also invite our kids along on that journey is, like, serving their community. But more than anything, I'm also talking about just, like, serving in the home. Like, they should know that part of being a man is serving those around you and specifically serving the women around you. I really believe that. And I think you also model that really well in our household with, like, how you talk to me and what. How you take care of me. And that is very much evident in the way that our kids talk to me.

[B]

Okay, fill me in on this, because I had a juicy question for you. What is something that I do a good job of as far as leading by example for the boys, and then what scenario I can improve on?

[A]

I was actually just leading into this. Like, our kids, like, you can see the fruit of how you've modeled what it looks like to be a loving, manly husband. And the way that our kids talk to me.

[B]

Wait, that kind of turns me on. You, like, hyping me up right now is, like, literally.

[A]

Well, our kids tell me, I got

[B]

the hots for you right now, babe. Got the hots.

[A]

They're like, mommy, you're beautiful. Or if I'm, like, sad, they're like, it's gonna be okay.

[B]

Wait, I love that. Why do I love that our kids say that to.

[A]

Are you worried?

[B]

No. I love when Auggie says, if you're crying about, like, miscarriage and missing Emerson, the boys will literally say to you, it's gonna be okay, Mom.

[A]

It's gonna be okay.

[B]

And I'm just like, tears. Like, it's just like. I love that they're comforting you.

[A]

Like, they. It's. It's very. I'm so grateful that they have you as an example to look to because, like, you are an amazing example of what it means to be manly nowadays. Like, you're literally. And here's the other thing that makes me so freaking mad, and where my comment came from back three years ago is I think any creator that is a couple that is in the same space as us has definitely experienced this. I feel this without a shadow of a doubt. Whereas if the husband displays sensitivity, emotional. Any type of emotional cap. Aspect. Being emotional at all.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Kindness, sweetness, gentleness. All the comments are like, run, girl. He's gay. He's gay. He's gay. He's gay.

[B]

I've been. I've been told I'm gay my entire life.

[A]

And you know what? Let's. Let's Those People that are, that are commenting, that are feeling that or saying that, let's also have empathy for them because they were raised in the same society in culture too, where they were probably told if they had any type of emotion as a kid that they were gay. This just shows a misunderstanding of Ms. Masculinity. Within myself, there is masculinity and femininity.

[B]

Wait, that's uncomfortable.

[A]

Why is it masculinity and feminine?

[B]

Why does it make me as uncomfortable as a man and the time that I was raised in to like say, in me as a man there's masculinity and femininity. Like, why does femininity, like, why do I feel like, I don't know, like that word?

[A]

Once again, it's just the time you're raised.

[B]

It sounds like a children.

[A]

Easy for me to say. Like, in me there is masculinity.

[B]

Like, I don't.

[A]

I was kind of raised in the girl power era, which I'm grateful for. I'm so grateful for. Like, I was encouraged to succeed. I was encouraged to be strong, resilient, like all these things. And like, that's why I also feel like it is my duty to also reflect that too towards our young men.

[B]

Thank you to Olipop for sponsoring this portion of today's episode.

[A]

We are truly an Olipop household over here. We recently made a family mantra and we had a lot of serious things in there. But we also did add that we will always be well stocked with beverages for guests that enter our home, which

[B]

you do a great job of.

[A]

That basically just means that we stock up on Olipop.

[B]

You did that. You stocked our fridge just a couple days ago with like 20 different olipop flavors.

[A]

Nearly empty now though, because Olipop is so delicious. If you don't know what it is. It is a new kind of soda that combines the classic soda taste that we all grew up with loving.

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Oh yeah.

[A]

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[B]

This has two grams of sugar. Two grams. That's so good.

[A]

Matt's all time favorite flavor is the cream soda, so I make sure we get lots of those. I personally love the grape one, but all of them really are so delicious right now. You can get a free can of Olipop. Buy any two cans of Olipop. In store and we'll pay you back for one. Works on any flavor, any retailer. Olipop is sold [e-mail] and Amazon, and it's also available in the soda aisle and with the chilled beverages at thousands of retailers nationw, including Walmart, Target, Costco and Whole Foods.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

For more information, go to drinkollipop.com unplanned thank you to Kindred bravely for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. I remember so distinctly, and I'm sure a lot of you listening can also remember it when you hit that point in pregnancy and again in postpartum where you just want one thing to feel easy. Once nursing and pumping were in the mix too, I realized I needed a specific bra designed for this specific chapter of my life. And that is why I seriously love Kindred Bravely. If you don't know what they are, they make intimates in a pair for maternity, postpartum and breastfeeding, as well as baby essentials too. All designed to make early motherhood feel a little less overwhelming and a lot more supported. One of my good friends is about to have a baby and I already have stocked up on a couple Kindred bravely items.

[B]

No way. That's so sweet of you.

[A]

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[B]

Thank you to Flamingo for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Have you ever been in a situation where you don't have a good razor and you're cutting your skin and there's blood and you're sad. I've done that. That's been me. I've done that so many times.

[A]

I'm gonna tell you as a woman, that is a tale as old as time.

[B]

I have sensitive skin.

[A]

We have been stealing our husband's razors because these razors are cute and all that they are marketing towards women, but they just don't do the job. We need sharp razors. Feel my leg right now. Wow, that is a close shape.

[B]

That is a great leg.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

I know we touched on this already and I think I know the answer to this, but I want to hear you say it out loud for everyone listening right now. With women making more than men, how should men respond? In the home, what should men do?

[A]

First of all, I think we need to view income for a household differently. Like, I don't look at our income as like, what I make and what you make. I have no idea what dollar amount I make and versus what dollar amount you make. It's what we make.

[B]

I think it's a fragile masculine view, but I think the viewpoint is like, well, if my wife's making more than me, I'm insignificant. I'm not I'm not, I'm not contributing. I'm supposed to be the provider. I'm not providing for my family because I think it's a very.

[A]

I genuinely do not think women care about money.

[B]

I think that's the black and white view of men. Like men think that if they can make more money, they can provide security and like provision for their families.

[A]

In this view of masculinity, men are set up to fail. If men are viewed as valuable for the amount of dollars they bring home every year, every month, then we're just setting them up for failure, limiting masculinity to that.

[B]

And how is this a trend affected then by childbirth? Because I feel like the women making more than men are probably mostly women that are probably not married or probably don't have kids.

[A]

I don't know. There's a lot of working moms out there.

[B]

True, true. There are. Yeah. Actually that's a really good point.

[A]

I'm not sure that that's actually even true.

[B]

Wait, actually you're right. I think even in our own life, I want to say both of our sister in laws make more than their husband. And I think like we're probably seeing this trend. We've seen it in our life. And so I'm sure people are seeing it in their life too.

[A]

Of course. And I think that like a lot of women got these like really big careers, very high opportunity careers, well paying jobs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then they find themselves like maybe making more than their spouse and then having a kid and then feeling like, oh man, now I actually kind of want to stay home with that baby. But then it's like, oh, I am bringing the bulk of the income home each month.

[B]

That makes me think of the TikTok with the Mrs. Incredible audio. That's like, come on girl, leave the

[A]

save the world to the men. I don't think so. I love that. See, I love that.

[B]

I like that too. And I also think. Nevermind. I'm not gonna say that out loud. Sorry. I think Mrs. Incredible is attractive, but I think you're more attractive. So I think that makes me like, like I just gave you a really big compliment.

[A]

Great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think also modern masculinity or help. Modern healthy masculinity looks like good communication and that which also comes from like empathy and from consideration.

[B]

I'm saying some unhinged stuff today. I'm like, I, I gotta be careful with the clipping, the clipping of this.

[A]

Another thing that I think is really important specifically in us raising strong, confident, resilient young Men that are also very empathetic and considerate and kind and gentle is critical thinking skills. I think that's specifically, like, what is the calling for men nowadays is to be really strong critical thinkers. Because I think that that's part of being a good leader, and I still want to raise our boys to be strong leaders. And so a part of that is, like, having really good critical thinking skills. I feel like a lot of times, like, at least in our relationship, where I'm like. Like, oh, my gosh, like, this is something that's, like, new, and I'm not really sure how to. Like, I'm not really sure. Like, I'm kind of, like, feeling out of sorts or like, this is big. And I'm like, matt, I, like, look to you, and I feel like you have amazing critical thinking skills. And that's, like, why I think that's, like, a unique, special gift. It's not like women don't have it too, but, like, that is really, like, strong.

[B]

Why does that make me feel like an alpha? Whenever you, like, turn to me, does it?

[A]

That's good. And so I feel like with our boys, it's like. Like, I really want to help teach them critical thinking skills. So how this comes into play, because I also want to be practical about this conversation. I don't want to just be speaking in general terms. Like I said, how it comes to play is when they're. When they are given a consequence. It's like if they're taking a break for, like, one or two minutes or whatever. Like, they don't get the fruit snack or whatever your consequences are in your household, obviously keep them appropriate as having a conversation to help strengthen those. Those critical thinking skills.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it's not like we're just doling out consequences for no reason. They don't. And it doesn't lead to behavior modification down the line. As we say, like, hey, what did you do wrong? What should you do differently next time? And then what should you do now? That is them thinking critically through, like, okay, we did not just give a consequence to give a consequence. And then we always say, like, I didn't want to give you this consequence, but raising good men starts now. And everyone has consequences. And so we talk about, like, even with us, like, I love when there's, like, a situation in life where it's like, ugh, we have to have this consequence. Like, for us, my mommy has this consequence because I didn't do this. Or, yeah, like, if I'm running late.

[B]

No, I love it. Like, what's an example of Griffin telling me something. Maybe one time I was like, driving like, 5 miles per hour in a parking lot and my seatbelt wasn't on. I was like, dad, you got. You got to buckle up. Like, and then it's like, oh, my good. Like, Griffin, I forgot I need to pull over. And I'm not going to explain to him as, like, he's a three year old. So he doesn't. He's not going to fully understand, like, how driving 20ft in a parking lot going 5 miles per hour isn't a big deal if you buckle up. But because he understands the rules, I want to reinforce, like, great job. Like, you recognize the rule that we have in this world, and these rules are set up to protect us. And so I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna praise you for that. Like, thanks for reminding me. But I'm not gonna be like, oh, dad doesn't have to follow the rules. I do whatever the f I want.

[A]

Like, no, you, like, that's also you modeling. Like, oh, I'm submitting myself to, like, obey the rules.

[B]

I'm submitting myself to a three year old.

[A]

No, not to a three year old. But, like, they can see you once again not being too big or too proud.

[B]

I'm acknowledging my 2, 3 year old.

[A]

You acknowledging your role in society too. And so all that to say, like, I really want to make sure. I feel like that's how critical thinking skills can play a role in, like, it specifically comes in, like, after having consequences with our kids. Yeah. I feel like a lot of this is kind of making it sound like I feel like I know everything. And it's like, that's literally not the case at all. I'm constantly having conversations with my friends of, like, how can I learn this? Or, like, reading books or, like, just learning. And I feel like, honestly, a lot of this is best done through conversation.

[B]

And the only authority we have on this topic is the fact that we are parents. We have two boys.

[A]

We're not experts, which isn't really much of an authority. There's a lot of parents out there.

[B]

We're not experts. We're not. We didn't go to school at Harvard or get a master's in family. Like, like, practice counseling and. And therapy. That's not us. We're not a marriage and family therapist. Okay. Our degree's not in this, but we're just talking about our own life and experience.

[A]

Yeah. I also want to say, like, I feel so proud of our boys in specific circumstances and I always praise the heck out of it when I see these things happen. So we had a little friend come over who is three year old girl. She's playing and then I noticed that like our dog had scratched her and she was really sad about it.

[B]

Wait, oh, wait, I know who this is. I hate that.

[A]

And she thought to go to our oldest directly. She's like, hey, like, I'm sad because Pretzel scratched me. And her son put his arm around her and he gave her a hug.

[B]

He gave her a hug.

[A]

And he like looked, checked out. He looked at her wound, he like looked at her. And then he proceeded to walk over to our sliding glass door where she was outside and he threw the glass. He's like, don't do that again, Pretzel. And I feel like that is very. That was just a beautiful picture of him being protective.

[B]

He's protective of women.

[A]

But then he also, like, just checked to make sure that she was okay. And he cared for her emotions, gave her a hug, and then went. And it was like, I'm gonna defend you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, like, I feel like all of these things are like, really, really such good things at their foundation now. Can these things be twisted to be misused like this? Can this masculine, masculine trait be twisted to be toxic or to be harmful towards women or to be just like belittling? Yes, it can. But like, that is such a beautiful picture to me. I'm like, hey, Griffin, thank you so much for protecting her. Thank you so much for caring for her, having empathy for her. And we don't necessarily use all those words. But I'm like, really? Thank you for checking in on her. Thank you for giving her a hug. Thank you for like, doing these things. And it just makes me so, so proud. And my main thing, first of all, if the term man hating culture is like offensive, that's not my goal at all. That was just how I was experiencing it. Because I just never wanted to my little boys to go about their life and just hear these things and take them on as they're developing their view of themselves and their role in the world. To hear, like, I hate men. Men are the worst. And then be like, man, there's something wrong with me. Like, there is something. I'm not capable of this. Like, there's just, just such a defeated. I don't, I never want that to happen. Like, I want them to feel empowered in their unique role as a man. Like, I want them to feel empowered in that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I feel like a man that's Properly empowered is not one that is going to be abusive. Like, misused power. Any of those.

[B]

What I think a lot of them. I think men that have positions of power that do harmful things in society and in the world probably are just men that need to go therapy and haven't been. And haven't worked and haven't worked through personal things that they're now, like, they're searching for something that they're never going to find because it's just they need to put in the work for themselves.

[A]

Which I also want to, like, applaud you on, because when you go to therapy.

[B]

Thank you, baby.

[A]

It's not like, okay, they're like, wait, where's dad going? It's not like you're like, I'm just gonna go out and do tinker with the car. Like, I'm going to therapy. And you're making that normal. Making it normal to be like, I have things I want to work on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Making that healthy and making that, like, okay for them to be. Be like, okay, I can go to therapy, too. And I feel like a lot of boys haven't. And also, let's props to. Your dad modeled that for you too, which was very rare.

[B]

My dad's never done my dad. I am proud of my dad for being open about going to couples therapy. I think the next step that I've taken that I guess I should be proud of myself as individual, because that wasn't modeled for me. What was modeled is going to therapy

[A]

for your marriage, also not demonizing therapy in general. That's a big step.

[B]

Yeah. Individual therapy was not modeled for me. And so for me to take that step myself, I'm proud of myself for that. And I think it's important for, like. And I truly mean this. Like, I'm not trying to just, like, sell everyone on therapy, but I. I do really believe that everyone, literally everyone, could gain value in therapy, even if it's just a few times. Right.

[A]

For sure. And if therapy isn't, like, a financial option at a certain time.

[B]

Yes. Like, it's expensive.

[A]

Having candid, raw, vulnerable conversations with trusted community really can have very similar effects,

[B]

which something I need to work on is, like, just to be candid and vulnerable for a second. Like, I. There's conversations I have with my therapist that I don't think I could have with any of my friends, which. Which is. I feel like that I wish it wasn't that way. I don't know what it is with me. It's. I. I take full ownership for it. I Don't know what it is about me where I feel like I can't share some of those. Those things with my closest guy friends. But I. I literally have told. It's like, it's like my therapy. Like, I've told my therapist, like, everything just like you, you know? So it's just. I don't know.

[A]

I want to say too, like, that is a great example of masculinity for our boys, is you being willing to work on yourself actively as a grown man and specifically working on yourself in an emotional capacity. That's huge. And that's so important. And I feel like that also needs to be included in our definition of modern masculinity.

[B]

Yeah. And can I say this, too? This might be a bit of a hot take, but I don't think your spouse can be your therapist therapist. You cannot expect your spouse to meet each and every emotional need you have, man or woman. It does not matter. Like, you need to find healthy outlets for your emotions, especially the big ones that, you know, everybody has them. Everyone has different ways of dealing with them. But I think it's, like, extremely toxic for a husband or a wife to. To expect their. Their spouse to meet all of that. And I've definitely been guilty of. There's been times where I'm like, oh, Abby needs to do this for me. And I think a really good place, if you're ever in a state of bitterness, I think, like, for me to have this. This. This realization of what can I do? It's like that saying, what? Look, not to what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. I think that's John F. Kennedy. Somebody quote me on that. I've posted. I've quoted that in the past, and people were like, oh, yeah, that's the quote by. And then I forget who it is every time. My memory's not that great. But in your marriage, same thing. What can you do for your marriage? What can you do to make your marriage better?

[A]

Which once again goes into service.

[B]

And I think, like, both men and women on the side of, like, hate, like, almost. If you're finding yourself as a man or a woman being. Finding hatred for a gender, period, it doesn't matter which one it is. Doesn't matter if it's the same gender that you are. It doesn't matter if it's a different gender, regardless of what the hatred is. If you're finding that, think about it. Put yourself in their shoes. Think about it from a different perspective. And I think it's Just important to always do that.

[A]

Let's also recognize like why this became so popular.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In my opinion, I feel like a lot of it has to do with our algorithms. They promote the most angry, the most like emotion infused response, the most like I feel like that played a major role in why I was arriving to the conclusion of like, oh, we're living in a man hate world. Because the big, the, the videos that are like, like the most anger driven, the most stereotyping, the most emotional, like those are the ones that are getting promoted. Those are the ones that getting the most comments, the most getting likes shares, all those things. And that's how I like arrived at that conclusion. And I'm like, I'm not fully, I still don't necessarily fully disagree with that, but I do think that yeah, like that clip definitely did not recognize the nuance that this situ. The complexity of this issue and like why we're seeing this pendulum swing this way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because of all the oppression and hate and abuse and mistreatment. That's what causes that.

[B]

I think the problem social media, I think, I think the drama. The drama and the tea gets clicks. And I think that's why we see. I think, yeah. All of that leads to the voices of people hating on men and then the men that are then hating on women. Like the red pill community. Like, I think that's like where you get all this drama and then you get these sides and it's just a lot of conflict.

[A]

Yeah. And I just want to say like as a mom to two young boys, I am not afraid to raise my boys to be masculine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like that is something that, that's like literally one of my goals. And in my mind that comes with so much nuance, but it is. I want them to be strong.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I want them to be resilient. I want them to be good leaders. Yeah. And I want them to be protective.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like those are things I'm like, I uniquely want that for them as boys. Now that doesn't mean that if I have a little girl that I don't also want her to raise her to be those things. But these are like, these are primary goals for me as a boy mom. This is like a messy, sensitive topic and like I don't want to act like I'm disregarding that at all. And I want to be very empathetic towards that. Like my thoughts aren't fully collected, but I've just been having these and at the. Feels scary to voice them because of responses like we got in the past. But I don't want that fear to hold me back from having a conversation that feels important to me as a mom of two boys.

[B]

And it's important to me too. And I think it would be silly for us to not talk about what we believe. Like it's important. I think it's important. It's important to talk about what you believe. And then also, like, I, I think the beauty of social media is the connection that we have and we can share these ideas. You know, even though the, that was a 22 second clip, by the way, that blew up and got some, you know, maybe negative comments. But I think, like, there's a lot we can learn from that. There's a lot that our viewers that believe a lot of the same things we believe can learn from different viewpoints. And I think it's really important as a society, especially in today's day and age to listen to other viewpoints because that's what brings us together. We don't need to, we don't need to continue to divide up as a, as a country and as a world. We need to build bridges to one another and talk about these things. Well, guys, thank you so much for tuning in. Again, if you have not left a review for the podcast, please, please do that. It's also free to subscribe and hit the like button. Completely free way you can support the show because it's free to watch it. We don't charge you guys a penny. So thank you. And thank you to our sponsors for allowing us to keep the show going and continuing to build the team so we can make better episodes for you guys. Thank you so much.

[A]

And until next time, peace out, dudes.

[B]

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[A]

Experian.