The debt trap, combining finances & why you shouldn’t rent w/ Rachel Cruze

Summary

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Podcast Summary

The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby

Episode: The Debt Trap, Combining Finances & Why You Shouldn’t Rent w/ Rachel Cruze
Guest: Rachel Cruze (Personal Finance Expert, author, and co-host of The Ramsey Show)
Date: September 3, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Matt and Abby are joined by Rachel Cruze—personal finance expert, bestselling author, and daughter of Dave Ramsey—to discuss the big financial questions facing couples and young families: Should you combine finances in marriage? Is all debt really bad? What’s behind America’s obsession with car payments? And how do today’s shifting economic realities affect basic financial wisdom? Rachel brings in relatable examples from her own family and upbringing, backed by the Ramsey philosophy of zero consumer debt, married couples as true financial partners, and the emotional realities underlying money choices.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Debt & Financial Mindset

• All Debt Except Mortgages is a No-No: Rachel explains the Ramsey approach: car loans, credit cards, and consumer debt are to be avoided; only home mortgages—with conservative guidelines—are accepted.
  • “There's other controversial things we have takes on, like no debt. Like, no debt at all.” (Rachel, 01:34)
• The Emotional Cost of Payments: Debt creates a “level of bondage,” making people beholden to jobs and limiting life choices.
  • “You don't have autonomy over your money. Your income that comes in and hits your account...it's already spent.” (Rachel, 31:07)
• Main Barrier to Wealth—Car Payments: The average new car payment is nearly $700/month, and for families with two, it can be $1,400—a major block to wealth building.
  • “People are throwing away their retirement funds for it. And it's just not worth it because it's a car.” (Rachel, 24:24)

2. Combining Finances in Marriage

• Controversy and Pushback: Combining finances remains Rachel’s #1 “hot button” on social media, often triggering anger or fear.
  • “If it's like a low week on social, the girl that helps me, she's like, just throw up like a combined checking accounts, it'll spike.” (Rachel, 11:09)
• Fear & Individualism: Many fear merging accounts because it means relinquishing control and worsens vulnerability in a relationship, especially given divorce rates and past traumas.
  • “It's radical to say in today's world that when you get married, you're one in every part of your life...When you give that up to the other person, I think it's a level of risk.” (Rachel, 12:18)
• When Separate Accounts Make Sense: In cases of abuse, addiction, or neglect, separate finances are advisable to protect oneself and one’s family.
  • “If there is abuse, addiction, neglect...you have to protect yourself.” (Rachel, 14:46)
• Marriage Issues Masquerading as Money Fights: Most marital “money fights” are really about lack of communication, respect, or deeper relational issues.
  • “90% of them, it’s a marriage issue...You're seeing the holes in your marriage. It's coming out as money.” (Rachel, 13:31)

3. Spenders vs. Savers in Marriage

• Communication is Key: Approach money conflicts by expressing your feelings ("I feel nervous because...") rather than blaming ("You spent too much").
  • “Never say, like, what you're spending. It's your Target bags...talk about you.” (Rachel quoting Dr. John DeLoney, 17:52)
• The Other Side Matters: Both over-controlling savers and out-of-control spenders can derail financial health; both must self-reflect and compromise.
  • “You cannot have this much control over it. It's going to suffocate your life, you know?” (Rachel, 19:15)
• Budgeting and Plan: Creating an agreed-upon monthly plan helps provide clarity, boundaries, and guardrails for both partners’ habits.

4. Cars: Buy Used, Pay Cash, Avoid Payments

• Car Status as Trap: America’s car-as-status obsession leads to car payments eating up income and limiting wealth-building.
  • “Our cars have become a status symbol. It's become our value. Like when you drive a car, people see your car and automatically make judgments about you.” (Rachel, 24:04)
• Dealerships Want You in Debt: Car dealerships make more profit off financing than cash sales; it’s hard to buy used cars for cash from dealerships, but private sales allow more negotiation.
  • “A dealership will not [negotiate], because they don't make as much money. They want you to finance.” (Rachel, 27:44)
• If Trapped in Payments: Selling a too-expensive car may mean taking out a small loan to get into a cheaper, owned vehicle, then rapidly paying off the new, smaller loan.

5. Housing Market Realities

• Interest Rates & Affordability: Home purchases should use at least 5% down (20% is ideal), on a 15-year fixed-rate mortgage, with payments not exceeding 25% of take-home income.
  • “At least have 5% down...a 15-year fixed rate mortgage, where your mortgage payment is no more than 25% of your take home pay.” (Rachel, 46:20)
• Lowered Expectations Required: Because housing costs have skyrocketed, be prepared to “mourn” old expectations and accept a smaller house, further away, or a longer saving period to stay safe financially.
• Paid-off Home = Peace: Homeownership is about stability and peace, especially approaching retirement—not maximizing leverage or speculation.
  • “Having a paid off home...that's the big goal, to have everything paid off.” (Rachel, 49:46)

6. Family Finances: Transitioning to One Income & Budgeting with Kids

• Know Your Expenses First: Before going from two incomes to one (like when a parent wants to stay home), tally all actual expenses and see if life is possible on less—often, drastic lifestyle adjustments are necessary.
  • “You have to figure out first and foremost what your expenses are...” (Rachel, 32:12)
• Values Over Culture: Don’t let societal judgment (“How could you stay home?” or “How could you keep working?”) dictate your decision—do what’s best for your family, and be open to change.
  • “Nothing is forever. Decisions we make are so seasonal.” (Rachel, 35:12)
• Respect Reality & Each Other: Spouses must be real about prices and not assume the other is overspending out of carelessness; money spent often covers true family needs.

7. Teaching Kids about Money

• Integrate Lessons into Daily Life: Rachel’s parents didn’t make money talks formal—opportunities for lessons were woven through regular life (chores for allowance, living with the consequences of spending, making do when things break).
  • “You find these moments in life to use them as teachable moments.” (Rachel, 55:15)
• Don’t Bail Out on Poor Choices: Letting kids feel the regret and limitations of their spending builds lifelong money wisdom.
  • “When you're out of money, you're out of money, so we gotta go work and make more money. That's how you live.” (Rachel, 04:18)
• Personality Differences: Each child is unique—some are natural spenders, some savers. Recognize and guide accordingly.
  • “You'll learn this with your kids. They have different money personalities.” (Rachel, 55:58)

8. Contentment, Social Media & Emotional Spending

• Battling Consumerism: A constant onslaught of social media posts, trends, and must-haves make contentment harder and drive impulse buying.
  • “I found myself asking the question, if nobody sees this purchase, do I still want it?” (Rachel, 58:16)
• Self-Reflection: Understanding your own triggers and motivations—Do you buy for others’ approval? For boredom?—yields control.
  • “So much of my motivation was for other people. And I'm like, what does that say about me?” (Rachel, 58:49)
• Good Stuff Isn’t Bad: Enjoying quality or new things is fine—just don’t let possessions “have you,” especially if it means going into debt or tying your self-worth to things.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Merging Finances is an Act of Intimacy:

  • “When you do that, you have a level of depth and intimacy with this person that you're combining so much more than just money with...you're combining your life and your fears and your dreams.” (Rachel, 12:46)

• Most Money Fights Aren’t about Money:

  • “90% of them, it's a marriage issue. It's not a money issue...It's lack of communication, lack of respect.” (Rachel, 13:31)

• On the Temptation of Status Cars:

  • “We have taken that on. And I hate it because I'm like, it's for like two seconds at a stoplight, that you feel really great and there's, you know, and that's it.” (Rachel, 24:04)

• On Living Below Your Means:

  • “You gotta live like no one else so you can live like no one else.” (Matt, 52:48)

• On Kids & Consequences:

  • “If you don't as an adult, you can go down the avenue of debt...if you don't have money, you're out of money, so we gotta go work and make more money.” (Rachel, 04:18)

• On Contentment & Social Media Pressures:

  • “If nobody sees this purchase, do I still want it?” (Rachel, 58:16)

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Important Timestamps

• Combining finances—why it's so controversial: 00:34–02:22, 11:04–13:24
• Rachel’s childhood ‘Careless at the Carnival’ story—money lessons for kids: 02:37–04:50
• Marriage, money fights, and when to keep finances separate: 13:24–16:54
• Dealing with spendy (or tightfisted) partners: 17:26–20:06
• The new vs. used car debate, car loans & America’s auto payment trap: 21:48–29:12
• The bondage of debt and regaining financial autonomy: 30:54–31:46
• How to plan for single income after having kids: 31:46–36:15
• Budgeting, real costs, and communicating spending in marriage: 37:07–38:47
• Explaining money choices to kids and comparison with other families: 40:49–42:28
• Home buying advice—affordability rules, 15yr vs. 30yr mortgages, asset vs. liability: 44:22–52:09
• Contentment, emotional spending, and social media’s impact: 57:46–60:49
• Teaching young kids about money (rhythms, not lectures): 54:16–57:26

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Closing Thoughts

Rachel Cruze’s approach isn’t about flashy hacks or headline-grabbing shortcuts. It’s the slow, steady, emotionally intelligent path—understanding your partner, knowing your “why,” respecting your money’s real limits, prioritizing long-term security, and teaching your kids by example. This episode centers on the idea that financial health isn’t just about numbers, but about relationships, values, and resilience in a world full of easy debt, quick fixes, and social comparison.

Where to find Rachel Cruze:

• [Instagram, TikTok, Facebook]
• [The Rachel Cruze Show Podcast & YouTube]
• Co-host of [The Ramsey Show] and [Smart Money Happy Hour]

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Don't do it. People are throwing away their retirement for it. It's just not worth it because it's a.

[A]

What is the controversy behind combining finances?

[B]

It's radical to say in today's world that when you get married, you're one. I mean, what is the stat? Like, half of marriages into divorce? We'll hear this a lot with husbands and wives. And it's like, I can't believe you spent that much. And it's like, well, then you go to the store and try to get a week's worth of groceries. That's the thing with debt. You're paying banks, you're paying other people versus yourself. You could be using that money for you. Don't make other people rich. Make yourself rich.

[A]

This week on Unplanned, we sat down with Rachel Cruz. She's number one New York Times bestselling author, personal finance expert, and just so happens to be the daughter of Dave Ramsey. We talk about why you should combine your finances, why you should pay cash for your car, and the number one thing that's keeping Americans broke all on today's episode. Something funny Abby mentioned yesterday was like, you know, we should ask Rachel her credit score. And I'm like, babe, I don't think you realize this. Rachel doesn't use credit cards.

[B]

I know. I've never had credit.

[C]

We should talk about things to get your credit score up. And then Matt's like, they don't have credit. I was like, we're on podcast. No, no, that's right.

[B]

I know. That is the funny thing about, like, Ramsey's, like, our take on stuff. It is. So it's pretty countercultural. There's some things we say that from a financial perspective that a lot of financial influencers agree with. Like, majority of people would say, like, having a car loan's mathematically stupid. Like, a lot of financial people would say that because it's a depreciating asset. But there's other controversial things that we have takes on, like no debt. Like, no debt at all. And if you have to buy a house, the house is the one part that's the one purchase that. Yes. That we would. It's okay. Yeah. But we have parameters around the mortgage that you should take out. And you can get a house without a credit score by doing manual underwriting. So you can still get a mortgage without a credit score. Combining bank accounts when you're married is, like, really controversial. Yeah. So there's a couple of takes that we have as Ramsey that, like, kind of goes against, I feel like, all financial people out there.

[C]

Sure. We'll dive into some of those. I was like, wait, Matt, you're telling me she pays cash for her morning coffee? Like, literally everything. But you probably also have debit card, right? Yes.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Apple Pay debit card. Yeah, but it's like. But it's out of a checking account, so, like, it's my money.

[C]

It's directly going out that I'm using.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I did want to ask. Isn't there a famous story about how your dad took you to a carnival when you were a kid and then gave you a budget for, like, your spending and then you spent it all? Like, Abby's told me this story. Like, she had heard this story from, like, her grandma when she was a kid, just how to train your kids on finances. Could you give us a little rundown of that story?

[B]

So the whole thing was that we. Because as kids, we were never given an allowance. We always were on commitment. So you work, you get paid. You don't work, you don't get paid. So we did chores around the house. You get money, and I'm the spender of the kids. I have an older sister, younger brother, and they both tend to be kind of more savers, naturally, where I'm like, I'm such a spender, and still am to this day. I just enjoy spending money. And so we went to Opryland, which is a throwback for Nashville. So Nashville, there was a theme park called Opryland. It's shut down now, but we went to Opryland, and they had, like, all those little carnival games. Like, it was an amusement park, but they had, like, you know, you could, like, play all these games.

[A]

And.

[B]

And so mom and dad were like, yeah, if you want to play the games, you got to bring your money. And I'm probably six at the time. I don't know how old I was. Probably that young. So I walked in, and it was, like, the first little carnival game that I saw. You, like, shoot water at this thing, you know? And I, like, put my dollar down, and I didn't do it. I was, like, an addict gambling in Vegas. I was like, do it again. Do it again. Do it again. And I spent all my, like, $8 or whatever it was. And I was done, like in one game, like the very first game. And I remember I looked around, I was like, I need more money. I need more money.

[C]

And.

[B]

And mom and dad were like, no, you spent all your money. And I was like, no, but I need more money. I need to win. Like, I need to win this game. And they're like, no. And I'm like, what am I gonna do the rest of the day? They're like, well, we don't know, babe.

[C]

But like, watch everybody else.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, you know the rules. Like, you did it. So it was called Careless at the Carnival was the kids book that they like, wrote about it.

[C]

But.

[B]

Yeah, but it was like.

[C]

It was a pretty.

[B]

It's funny. Cause mom and dad, they were like. They weren't very legalistic parents, but they had moments like that that they were like. They drew a line in the sands and they're like, we're not budging. Like, you gotta learn this. You gotta feel these emotions of what it feels like to stop when you don't have money. You gotta stop, because if you don't as an adult, you can go down the avenue of debt. You can still get more money even though you don't have money. Right? So it was like this concept of when you're out of money, you're out of money, so we gotta go work and make more money. That's how you live. That's how life is. So it was little. Yeah. Little stories like that as Dave Ramsey's daughter, that for sure.

[A]

I remember in fourth grade, my parents wanted me to wear a skateboard helmet when I skateboarded. And I really didn't want to. We got into this big altercation. And I wonder, like, in the same way, like, was. Was there ever something where you're like, man, I. I think I want to like, go get a credit card for this or just. Just to say, hey, I'm my own individual.

[B]

I'm, you know, be rebellious.

[A]

I'm 18 now and I can be my own person.

[C]

Totally.

[B]

You know, I mean, I think probably in college, like when I was in college is when they had, like, credit cards were all around and you would get like a free pizza or free T shirt. And like, there were. There were tables everywhere, all over campus that you could like, sign up for these credit cards. And I feel like a lot of my friends were doing it. And I was like. And I just remember thinking, like, it's not that big of a deal. Y'. All, like, it's not that big of a deal. I remember mentioning it on the phone, like, one night to my parents. I was like, yeah, I just thought about signing up for a credit card. My dad was like, don't you dare. But they weren't, like, it didn't feel rebellious because, again, I think their parenting was so brilliant in the sense that they weren't overly legalistic about it. Like, we made mistakes, like, as kids, I don't know, we just. We spent money on stupid stuff. I mean, like, the carnival is one example, but they weren't, like, overly controlling with our money. Even as teenager, really let us kind of, like, figure it out. And I think because of it, it didn't feel like this crazy hard line. Even though I knew there was a line, I didn't have this need to be like, oh, I should. I want to pass this line. I don't know. Being rebellious and, like, signing up for a credit card is pretty funny. Like, I think usually people are, like, doing drugs or something, and their rebellion would be something like that. This would be crazy. It'd be crazy.

[A]

Yeah. When your husband met your dad, was there ever, like, a conversation of, hey, like, how much debt do you have? Do you have any debt? Do you have a credit card? Was that like, something that was ever discussed at. Yeah.

[B]

And Winston hadn't even heard of my dad when we started dating. We've been married 15 years, and we dated for, what, I guess maybe two years. So, I mean, this was 17 years ago. Yeah. And he had never heard of my dad. And one of his friends was like, dude, do you know who Rachel's dad is? And he's like, no. He was like, Dave Ramsey. And Winston was like, my dad's buddy, Cruz. Like, I don't get it. Like, what do you mean? Like, he's a financial guy. You know, all this stuff. But it's funny because Winston, from a natural personality perspective, leans more like Ramsay principles than I even do. Like, he is, like, naturally a saver. Very much a nerd. Loves, like, spread and figuring out, like, we could save this and this and then get this. And he does some real estate flips. So he's like, dude crunching number. He's just like a. He's a numbers guy and all of it. So he had a credit card, though, when we were dating. I mean, the first couple of dates for sure, were paid with, like, his Capital One credit card.

[A]

Really?

[B]

And I remember thinking, that was funny. I was like, this is so funny. I don't know why that Is funny. Yeah. And as we were dating, I mean, we were sophomores in college, so we weren't like him. We were just kind of having fun. And then as it got more serious, like, oh, my gosh, you really could be, like, the one. Then other conversations really started to emerge, as they do when you're seriously dating. I mean, everything from family to, you know, spiritual life to money came up. All of this. And I mean, and I think at that point, by then, he knew where I stood and all of it. But to him, it made sense. Like, he was like, he had a credit card to build his credit score. You know, he was like, I don't know. Cause I just feel like you just need a credit score, but when you learn a totally different way of money, he was like, oh, well, yeah, we don't need it. That's fine. Like, so it wasn't this big, like, dramatic thing. And I think the gift in it is that we were still young. Like, you know, we were, you know, 20 years old, 21. If we were 35. I feel like it could be harder. Like, when people come combine finances because they get married later in life. I think that is way more difficult because you're so set in your ways. Well, we were college students. You know what I mean? Like, there was, like, this, like. Not that it was overly flippant, but it was like, I don't know, probably more. We had less baggage, I guess, about real world things because we were, like, still growing up together, which was great.

[A]

And when did you guys decide the combined finances was that before you got married?

[B]

After you got married, we actually opened up one checking account for, like, our wedding budgets. I remember, like, a. Just like, he had his checking out, I had mine, and we got one together when we were engaged that we put all of, like, our wedding funds in. So as we were spending money, it was coming out of this checking account. And then we ended up, I think, probably like, after the honeymoon. I mean, soon after. Just closing down our two checking accounts and just merging into that one that we had opened.

[A]

Did he get rid of his credit card at that time, too, or did he hold on to it?

[B]

Yeah, no, he got rid of it, I think, even before we. I think even like, when we were engaged. Yeah.

[A]

No way.

[B]

Yeah. So he was like, oh, yeah, it's great. No big deal.

[A]

That's funny. That's really funny.

[B]

I know, I know.

[A]

Okay, so we combine our finances before we were married.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Probably not the best idea.

[B]

We all engaged or dating or.

[A]

We weren't even engaged.

[C]

We.

[A]

We were just two broke college kids trying to buy a car together so we could work, like, a job at a pizza restaurant.

[C]

Yeah, we need a job, but we can only afford one car because we.

[A]

Wanted to get married. We wanted to get married. Which. Because I wanted to get married, that.

[C]

Was a really bad idea. In hindsight, it worked out great.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Right, right, right.

[C]

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[A]

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[C]

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[A]

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[C]

Yeah. Not everyone is a therapist.

[A]

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[A]

What is the controversy behind people getting on you on social media about combining finances? Like, why does that topic get people.

[B]

People riled up Emotion, Such emotion? It's like the number one hate that I get.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Oh, yes. It's so funny. I laugh. This sounds kind of manipulative, so I hate to even say it, but if it's like a low Week on Social. The girl that helps me, she's like, just throw up. Like a combined checking accounts, it'll spike. And I'm like, I know, fine. But whatever. It's like our number one hot button. We can just put out there flippantly, and people just, like, freak out. I think. I mean, I think a lot of it's driven by fear in our world today with marriage, sadly, I think so many, you know, I mean, what is the stat, like, half of marriages into divorce? There is something to be said. I think a lot of pain and a lot of fear comes when you're talking about, hey, I'm combining this one area of my life that I have control over. And if I have to get out of this situation, it's like, the resources that I need to get out are here for me. If I relinquish those and I give up all control, I don't know what's gonna happen. Is everything gonna be okay? And if something bad happens, I don't have a way out. Like, I think that there's, like, a level to that that's very real for people. There's that level. I think there's a lot of, like, individualism that people still have where they're like, this is my money. I worked for this. This is my house. It's mine over here. I've done this. You're just now coming into my life. You don't get that part of my life because this is what I've built. There's a level of that. Sometimes I think just ignorance. I don't think people even really think about it, maybe. But I think the emotion comes from a lot of fear. And I think that individualism could be a level of that fear, too. It's radical to say in today's world that when you get married, you're one in every part of your life. In your money, when you're raising kids, I'm like, that's why you choose to get Marri to do life with someone, right? To, like, lock arms and be like, I'm gonna walk this life with you. And when we do that, I think it comes at a really deep cost, meaning that you really do become one. You're still yourself. Like, I'm still a spender, Winston's still a saver. Like, I mean, you're still your. Who you are, but from the depths of these places that feel very vulnerable that I want to control. When you give that up to the other person, I think it's a level of risk. But in the same way not that, Winston, I have a perfect marriage by any means, but when you do that, you have a level of depth and intimacy with this person that you're combining so much more than just money with. You're combining your life and your fears and your dreams. Like, all of this is becoming one. And people, I think, are just scared to do that. So to say to do that when you're married, the fact that that's controversial, I'm like, oh, man, are we missing this element of marriage in our world, you know, that people aren't gonna experience because they're holding one part of themselves back?

[C]

Yeah. Maybe it's like, not a money thought, like, field of thought issue. Like, it's a marriage issue.

[B]

Exactly. Yes. And, Abbie, it's amazing, like, the calls that we get on the Ramsey show, especially, that it's like, money fights money problems conf. It's like one of the top calls we always get. I mean, like, it just is a. It's a tension point in marriage for so many people. And I promise you, 90% of them, it's a marriage issue. To your point, it's not a money issue. And that's what we always say. Like, it comes out as a money issue, but it's lack of communication, lack of respect, like, whatever the situation is, more is about marriage. Your marriage. You're seeing the holes in your marriage. It's coming out as money, but there's a relational deficit there. And when you start poking on that, then you're like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's much deeper than that.

[C]

It's like whack a molecule. It's like we don't have the same vision for the future, but, like, it comes out and like, you're spending money carelessly, like.

[B]

That's right. That's right.

[A]

Is there ever a situation, though, where having separate accounts would make sense? Maybe in the situation of somebody that has a gambling problem, an addiction, and they're literally, you know, plunging themselves into debt, and you don't want them to affect your credit score. And, you know, potentially, I've heard there's even people that have taken out loans under their kids or. Or damaged their kids debt because the gambling problem got so bad or their addiction got bad, would that be a situation where you would want to separate your finances just for the safety of your own family?

[B]

100%, yes. And I'm so glad you said that, because I usually say this with a caveat. If there is abuse, addiction, neglect, I mean, anything in that you have to protect yourself if you're in a situation, and sadly, like, we get those calls of people that, like, literally their retirement account is drained because their spouse secretly took all of their money and did X, Y and Z with it. It could be anything. We had a call last week with a crypto scam. This lady, and she's 74. They had $560,000 gone. So her and her husband are back to work now. I mean, all of it. And I'm like, oh. So there is definitely the caveat. And I think it's important to say, because I think some people are in situations that they may need out. Right. That might be a reality for them. So for them to have the resources to be able to do it. Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

So even compare that to marriage, too. Like, someone going and spending money carelessly or, like, secretively is literally infidelity, just a different type. So it still also has that same parallel to marriage and finances. Yeah, well, you don't get the same, you know, level of, I don't know, like, extension of trust that you should have with your spouse if you've, you know, if you've broken outside of.

[B]

Yeah, yes, yes, yeah. Financial infidelity, it's like a. It is a real thing. And to your point, people say that it almost can feel like an affair. Like if you have this completely separate secret life that you had no clue about. That. Yes. The amount of trust that's broken in that, that's broken. So we have to rebuild that. And the prayer is that, you know, there's restoration and redemption in that story. But until then, I can't trust you with these resources. I can't trust you to share an account with me because I don't know what you're doing. So in that sense, separating it out. And it's funny, too. Cause I'm like. I know people flippantly are like, Instagram always jokes about, like, oh, I hid the target bags, or like, I don't want him to see the Amazon box, you know, and there's, like, flippant things. That's, like, kind of funny and humorous, but obviously, like, the more serious thing. But I would ask someone, like, if you really feel like you have to hide a purchase genuinely, even if it's just like, a target thing. Why, like, what is that? Like, where? And again, not that it may. It may not be anything, but it could start to become a root of something later on. And so, I don't know, addressing those kind of emotions and feelings with money, especially when it's against your spouse, kind of when you when you bump up against it, I don't know. It's just good questions to ask.

[C]

I imagine sometimes those things go hand in hand too, though. Like, if you're willing to, like, secretively spend money, like, are you willing to secretly have another relationship of some kind? Like, I imagine sometimes they go hand in hand. Obviously not always.

[B]

Yeah, because it's a character flaw. I mean, at that point, you're talking about someone's character, Right. And where are the bounds there? We don't know. So to your point, I mean, yeah, who knows? But for other couples, just, like, running the mill kind of couples out there, you know, just doing life, like, but they just want to avoid conflict. They want to avoid the fighting. So they're like, oh, or, I just want this thing over here. I'm going to just separate it. I would challenge them. No, combine it.

[A]

When it comes to your typical relationship, though, one without any of the gambling addictions or things like that, what should somebody do if they are married to a spendy spouse? I feel like everyone has probably been in a situation before where they're like, man, I just noticed all these target purchases. What the heck? And. And it's funny because everyone, I think, can rationalize their own spending, right. Because I'm sure their spouse is saying the same thing about them. What should somebody do if they're in that situation?

[B]

I would say as a couple, when you're married and if there's one spouse that continues to kind of, like, push the line and spend, obviously sit down and have a conversation. And What I've learned, Dr. John DeLoney actually talks about this, which I love, because he said, when you're ever in a conflict situation, never use you. Never say, like, what you're spending. It's your Target bags. You. You talk about you. It's like, hey, I'm getting. I'm feeling, like, really nervous. I'm scared that, number one, like, you're continuing to spend. And I don't feel like you have a boundary at all. And you're just spending on emotion. And, like, that makes me nervous. I'm starting to get fearful in that. Or, hey, we set a budget and we said we were gonna spend xyz, and you keep breaking that. And I'm starting to feel. I don't know if I can trust you. Like, a level of, like, disrespect. Like, are you. I don't feel taken care of because this is happening. Right? So, like, as much as you can, talking about what's going on within you. And I would say Sometimes the spouse we get, you know, that's like, oh, my gosh, they're such a big spender. Da, da, da, da. Sometimes they're the problem. Sometimes they're over controlling. And it's like, you have no idea what it costs to go to the grocery store, right? Like, we'll hear this a lot with husbands and wives and husband's like, I can't believe you spent that much. And it's like, well, then you go to the store and see how much everything costs and try to get a week's worth of groceries. Like, sometimes that spouse that's such a saver and such more like wants the control sometimes, not always, they're the issue. So it's. It's either or, right? But I think we have to address both because I think the spenders kind of get the. Maybe because I'm a spender and I'm defensive, is it, you know, they kind of get a bad rap. And sometimes people are out of control with spending. And so you got to get to the root of that and figuring out what's really going on there. But also, we see with savers, like, there are some people, man, they will get out of debt. They're investing and saving, and they will not spend money. And they end up hoarding it. They end up holding it. And to me, like, that's as much of an idol as the person that's going. And like, carelessly spending on this other end of. You cannot have this much control over it. It's going to. It's going to suffocate your life, you know? So both ends of the spectrum are really important to address. But if there is one spouse that's just completely out of control, I think, number one, having that conversation, number two, seeing if they would sit down and do a plan to be like, hey, let's talk about where our money's going. Like, take our income and we're going to plan out. Here's what we're going to spend on food this month. Here's what we're going to spend on clothes. Here's what our mortgage or rent costs. Like, actually have a plan with your income. And sometimes that shores it up.

[C]

Up.

[B]

When there's not a plan, it can be easy just to be like, oh, yeah, sure, I'll just do this, this, and this. But when you know where your money's going, sometimes that does kind of give some boundaries and guardrails. And if you both agree on it, then you both agree on it. But if that doesn't work, then I would always bring in, like, a third party, a counselor, or a therapist, because it is a hot button issue in marriage, so much so that it can cause divorce within relationships. And so you don't want it to become this thing where you almost resent your spouse because of it. So you want to make sure you kind of get to the root of what's going on.

[A]

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[A]

Can we talk a bit about new car purchases? The idea behind buying a car, at least from the Ramsey standpoint, is buy a used car. If you want to go nicer, get something that's two, three years old. You're not getting hit with the depreciation that you get hit with if you buy a new car and drive it off the lot.

[B]

Right.

[A]

When we bought a new car, because of the market, because of, I guess, the chip shortage, the price of the. Of the cars that were like 2, 3 years old was essentially the same price as the brand new ones.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

So we bought a brand new one. Then, of course, you know, a year or two later, I go on Kelley Blue Book, I type in our vin, I look up everything, and I just saw the most, the craziest appreciation every day.

[C]

He's like, I cannot believe the price.

[A]

Like, literally, our brand New car, give it a year or two, it's like down like $10,000. And I just like, like, it just, it just hurts, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What are people supposed to do in 2025 if they want to afford, you know, to get a car on the nicer end?

[B]

Number one, once you have a million dollar net worth, we say you can buy a brand new car. So that's kind of where you can hit. Okay, you can take the depreciation. It's not going to financially hit you as bad. So when you have a million dollar net worth, you can get a new car. That's great. And then number two. Yeah. I mean, for car purchases, saving up and paying cash for a car and, and 99.9% of the time you're going to get a cheaper price with a used car. You know, if you go and get a five year old car, Honda Civic, it's going to be cheaper than going and buying a brand new one, you know, So I think it's just the way to go. I mean, honestly, especially people who are struggling financially because we see so much of people's financial life, the number one thing that keeps them average are car payments. Because you look to see if you invested a car payment, you guys. And the average car payment now for a new car is close to $700 a month. And if you had two of those within a family, it's $1,400 going to the bank, going to the car dealership and not going to you versus if you had invested that. I like, want to pull up my investing calculator right now and be all nerdy.

[C]

He does. It is.

[B]

I'm like, and it's terrible. And again, because it's not a home, right. If you pay that in a mortgage, your home over time is going to go up in value, as we've seen. But it's a thing that I'm like you if it just sucks. And the thing is too, like our cars have become a status symbol. It's become our value. Like when you drive a car, people see your car and automatically make judgments about you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we have taken that on. And I'm like, man, like, it is. And I hate it because I'm like, it's for like two minutes or two seconds at a stoplight, right. That you feel really great and there's, you know, and that's it. Or for your friends or whatever. And I'm like, what are we chasing here? Like, what are we doing? And we're throwing away, honestly, a retirement. Like you're like, people are throwing away their retirement funds for it.

[A]

That makes me sick.

[B]

And it's not. It's just not worth it because it's a car. I'm like, it's literally supposed to get you from point A to point B, but yet we are all wrapped up in it as Americans. Right. Of so much of our lives. And from a financial perspective, it's like, the one thing that I'm like, don't do it. Like, some people are like, I do credit cards to get the airline or whatever, whatever. And you're like, okay, whatever, whatever. I don't like it, but I get it. The car payment is still the one that I'm like, don't do it. Don't do it. It's not worth it. Not worth it financially.

[C]

They know how to get all the moms, though. I know. They're like, this is the safest car. Like this. Like, okay, well, what mom's gonna be like, well, I don't want my kids to be in an unsafe vehicle. Like, they know how to get you.

[B]

Oh, they prey on the fear.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

100%. 100%. Yeah.

[A]

Well, I have a friend that was talking to me about their car situation because they just had a new baby and they were wanting to get a bigger vehicle, something that could, you know, fit multiple kids. But the car they had was not only one that would be able to hold multiple kids. It was only two rows, but it could hold the two kids they were going to have. They had a car payment. They're about to have it paid off. And. And talking to this situation made me so sad because what they ended up doing was taking on a car payment to get a brand new vehicle with. With three rows. How do you have that conversation with your spouse if, like, one spouse is wanting to not take on a car payment, and the other one is like, I want the car that can fit our children. But not only that, it needs to be the brand new one. It can't be one that's three or four years old. It needs to be the brand new one.

[B]

I mean, I would ask why. Hi. What is it in you that has to have the brand new one? Cause it's not safety. I mean, like, we were laughing about it, but I'm like. But genuinely, like, other cars that are 2, 3 years old, those are safe. Like, what is it? Is it the smell? Probably not. Like, it's great. We love a new car smell, but we could buy spray and, like, fix that, right? There's like an. I would say there's probably an ego play happening there, in my opinion. If you have to have the brand new thing, I would question, like, okay, so what's going on in you that's causing that? What insecurity is happening? Like, what is that? What is that about you? And if that's the spouse, I would guarantee that there's probably other areas of their life that they really care what people think about them, too. So I think, again, it kind of comes to, like, a character identity, person issue, and it comes out with wanting to buy a brand new car, but there's a lot wrapped up there.

[A]

That's such a tough.

[B]

But I will say from a. From your friend's perspective, that's how they get you, though, because a lot of people live in payment mindsets. So when the payment's almost done, you get a new car to get in to get a new payment.

[A]

It's like you can't afford the payment.

[B]

It's this, like, it's this. Right, right. That's exactly 100% it, because so there's that cycle that is very real.

[A]

What he was telling me was, you know, this brand new one, the pull from his spouse was it was only going to be $100 more, you know, to get. To get it. And so now they're in. They took on the debt to have the car, but, yeah, their payment just went up a little bit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they can technically afford the payment.

[B]

I tell you, that's what average people say.

[A]

When we went to go buy a car cash three years ago, the dealership ended up talking us into financing it because they almost want you to do that now.

[B]

They make more money.

[A]

They wouldn't even, like. I was like, can we. Can we talk? I was trying to, like, negotiate.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And they would not budge.

[B]

No.

[A]

Paying full cash wasn't going to work. And so we ended up to build Abby's credit score, ended up having the car loan under her for a year. And then we paid it off.

[C]

It did actually work, but it's paid off now.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Credit score did go up.

[B]

No, they don't want you and they don't negotiate a dealership. So you can negotiate cash for a car with an individual. So if someone's trying to get out of debt and they're like, I have this $800 car payment, $600 car payment, and I want out of this, then you have to look at selling the car. And sometimes if you bought a brand new car, what you can sell it for, you're underwater. Like, you bought it for 40,000 but it's only worth 32,000. So you're like, I have an $8,000 difference. So in that case, I would say you go get an $8,000 or a $13,000 loan from the bank and go get a $5,000 car, pay off the car, get rid of it and pay off that smaller loan and work your way out. Because a lot of people get stuck in the system and they want out. Right? And so that's a big thing. But to your point, though, buying from an individual, you can negotiate and bargain with cash because they will. A dealership will not, because they don't make as much money. They want you to finance because they're gonna make so much more money off of you.

[A]

What killed me, too, about my friend's situation is if they would have just paid the, like, thousand bucks left on their old car. Car, owned it completely outright, they could have sold it, used that cash to then buy maybe a van or something that was three, four years old.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And they would have owned it.

[B]

And you're paying someone else. That's the thing with debt is, like, you end up paying other people. You're paying banks, you're paying other people versus yourself. Like, you could be using that money for you in your future. Like, use your money and your income that you work so hard for, for you. Don't make other people rich. Like, these industries are getting so rich off of us. Yeah, don't do that. Like, make yourself rich.

[C]

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[A]

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[B]

When you are tied to payments, there is a level of bondage that you're in that you, you have to pay these payments every month. You have to go to a job you hate to make these payments. You have to do these things because of this lifestyle that you've built up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it keeps you trapped. You don't have autonomy over your money, your income that comes in and hits your account.

[C]

It's already spent 40.

[B]

It's done. Yeah, it's done. And it has other people on it. Like, other people get your income and you're like, no. And there's something, again, really spiritual and emotional about that. And when people are free, free financially, you have choices, you have options in life. Like, you're not stuck. You're able to do things. And so there's something about that too, that a lot of people from a financial perspective don't talk about. They just look at the numbers. But there's a real spiritual, emotional side to this that people that are debt free and live with no bank in their life telling them what to do. That level of autonomy is so rare today. And it's beautiful. It's amazing.

[C]

I know a lot of our audience is like new parents or thinking of like starting a family. And I know a big discussion among couples when, like, they're starting to, you know, do family planning is okay. Like, is one of us going to stay home with the kids, Are we going to go down to one income? Basically, I kind of just want to start talking about that topic and like how a couple can make that shift from two incomes to one. How do you even start going about that or see if it's even an option for you guys?

[B]

You have to figure out first and foremost what your expenses are. And there's a lot of people that, you know, they, they don't even know really what they're spending a month. And so you have to sit down and say, okay, let's look at our lifestyle as it is today. What are we spending? Listing out all the categories that you spend money on and looking at your income and then to say, okay, if we cut this in half, what does that mean? Can we live on this? Realistically, can we live on this? And the hard thing is, is, you know, and today is so expensive. I'm like, where we live today, I'm like, things are, it's just a lot. And so the dual income conversation is very real because a lot of couples build their lives not to go back to our car payment point, but to our point that like we're going to just do exactly what we can afford with two incomes. And even if that includes debt, all of us, like, we're going to live our lifestyle with these two inc. Incomes. And a lot of people don't have a lot of, they don't have margin. They literally are living right up to this paycheck to paycheck cycle. And so for a lot of couples, when they remove one income, they're like, we can't afford, we can't afford our life. So you either have to choose and it's a values question. There's not a right or wrong that it is so much worth it for us to have a stay at home parent that we will cut our lifestyle, we will sell the cars, we'll move to a smaller home, maybe to a different town. Like, we will make our lifestyle work. Because this value of having a parent at home, it's so worth it for us. It's what we want. Right? And so you can do that 100% people do that. Or you say, gosh, that would be so stressful. We would rather have the margin financially so that we can do things with the family. So, you know, we can use money in our lives to have these experiences and do these things. So we're going to choose to, you know, work dual income together. So yeah, it's just a values conversation to look. But at first you have to know what you're spending. Spending and how much your lifestyle is costing you per month to know mathematically if you can do it.

[C]

Yeah, I like how you said that too. Because I think sometimes it's easy to like how you said it's just a values question. Like some people say it's not worth it for us. Like maybe we do both want to, like, still have our incomes. Because I do think so much of this discussion can get tied up in like, your expectations that you place on yourself, but also what like culture and society is placing on you. It's like, how could you dare make this trade off both ways? How. And so, yeah, I like.

[B]

And from the, you know, from the woman's perspective too. I can only speak from that. Cause I'm a woman, so I don't know how the dude feels. But, you know, I enjoy my job. Like, I really. It gives me life. I enjoy it. It is so fun. Like, there's I want. I wanted to kind of keep working. I've pulled back my schedule some after having three kids, but I enjoy it. So for me, the value is what I feel like part of, you know, not only what I enjoy, but what I feel like I'm called to in life. Like, there's something about that that's bigger for me than just the. And that's important to me. And so there's that. So some women work because they just love it. They really enjoy what they're doing. So that's a values, you know, element. It may not just be the financial side, but then also on that end, there's working women that judge the stay at home mom. Cause they're like, oh my gosh, you've built up this whole career. How could you just throw it away, you know, for kids? And I'm like, being a stay at home mom is, I think, one of the most selfless, incredible jobs anyone could have. Being a stay at home parent. I mean, genuinely, I think it's. I think it is incredible. And so for working moms to judge the stay at home mom. No, stop, no. She's like, I don't know. So it's both ends. But to your point, you can't win, right? You can't win. There's always going to be people on either side that have their strong opinions, have their studies that they can quote from, you know, whatever, whatever about what's best you had to figure out for your family and you guys how you function. And the other thing, I would say you can make a different decision. It's not forever, right? So if you choose to stay at home and it's been a year and a half and you're like, I feel like I'm losing my soul. Like, I need to do something different. I need to, that's great. You can, you can make that decision. Or you decide, I'm gonna go back to work. And then you go back to work and it's horrible. And you're like, I hate this so much. It's stressing me out. I just wanna be home and you guys can make it work as a family, then quit and go home. Like, you know, nothing is forever. Decisions we make are so seasonal. And I feel like, especially as women, we get caught in this, like, what I'm doing today, this decision I'm making today, it's gonna be for the rest of my life. And you're like, no, you're okay. You can make different decisions.

[C]

You bring up so many good points. I also think back to. I know that so many of our listeners, their ears perked up when you were like, I don't think you understand actually how much things cost. Because I think that there are maybe a lot of stay at home moms that have taken on a bulk of the household duties, including grocery shopping expenses for the house, for the kids, like, their activities. It's like, it almost looks like that's their spending money when you're like, actually, none of this is going towards me, by the way. Like, this is for everything going on around here, how we're keeping everything moving. And so I think that, yeah, I just know so many people like ears per. They're probably like, hey, honey, come here. Listen, let me back this up to right here. That is an interesting discussion. I'm sure this all goes back to budgeting, but how do you have that conversation with your spouse? Like, when it can feel like, okay, this seems like this is all my fun spending money here that's going on, but this is really where all this is going. I guess that comes down to budgeting, right?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I think the budget can be the answer. But I also think looking at it realistically and knowing a little bit of that deeper question of like, okay, what's going on? Is it that we genuinely don't have the margin to do these things? Right? And there's some families that are like that, and it's like, we don't have the margin to go. I mean, I took my kids to the zoo and it was like $70. It was like close to $100 for us to all go to the zoo together. And I was like, oh my gosh. Like, it's just crazy. So you know, there may be instances where again, money, it sucks. Cause money just doesn't have emotion. It is what it is. So there may be some situations that you just don't have the money to go do that. You can't go to the indoor trampoline park one day and go to the zoo the next day and do all of this where you're spe, you know, $800 a month on just like fun with the kids. If you don't have that money, you can't spend that money.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So there could be someone in that bucket where it's like, I know you want to do that and you want to give your kids these things, but we don't have the money. And if as a family you're choosing, we're not going into debt, we're living below our means. Those are sacrifices that as a family we have to make. And so that's not fun, that's not enjoyable, but that's the reality. Or it is one spouse looking in and being like, oh my gosh, how are you spending this much on kids back to school shoes? Which is what I did yesterday with my kids. You this. I'm like, it's literally what it costs. Like there's no way around it. Now could we go find, you know, cheaper ones, you know, on Amazon or I don't know, on Amazon. Sure, maybe. Are there things around it? Yes. But also if we have the money to spend and you just don't like the price tag of it, then we need to talk about that reality. Because if we have the money for it and if you have the money for it and yet your spouse is like, I can't believe you spent X amount at the grocery. You're like, well, we have the money for it, so that's not the issue. The issue is you just don't emotionally like that. That number.

[C]

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[A]

And are you tired of battling your kids to eat their greens too? Haya now has Kids Daily Greens plus Superfoods, a chocolate flavored greens powder designed specifically for kids. Packed with 55 plus whole food ingredients to support brain power development and digest. Just scoop, shake and sip with milk or any non dairy beverage for a delicious and nutritious boost your kids will actually enjoy.

[C]

Let me tell you, Haya is a really fun routine for the kids too. Because they send a reusable bottle that's in this glass jar that kids can decorate with stickers and they have a great time. The same multivitamin that more than a million kids and parents love are now available with Disney's the Lion King. With a new Lion King unboxing experience including Lion King bottles and Lion King stickers. We've worked out a special deal with Haya for their best selling children's vitamin. Receive 50% off your first first order to claim the deal you must go to hyahealth.com unplanned this deal is not available on their regular website. Go to H I Y A H E a l t h.comunplanned and get your kids the full body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults. I like how you bring up the day at the zoo type of thing because I think this also poses the question of how do we have that conversation with kids? So say it's like all the kids are talking about going to the zoo and like we're planning this day and then you, it comes down to it and you're like oh God, my gosh, it's gonna cost $100 for me to go with the kids to the zoo today. How do you have that conversation then with your kids?

[B]

I would say very age appropriately, right? So depending on the age, you know, if they're like little, little, they probably don't care as much. You know, they'll just hang out with you and do something else that's different. But as they get older and they start to be aware of what people are doing or what people have, what people are experiencing other families compared to your family, that's like the season of life I'm in right now with my. I have almost a fifth grader. And the things that she picks up on already, you know, she's like, well so and so has this and so and so has that. And so the line I keep saying to her and I hate giving parenting advice. Cause I'm like, I'm literally in the thick of it. Like this could be so wrong y'.

[C]

All.

[B]

So I'll just tell you what we're doing right. And it could be very wrong. It could be very wrong. I just tell them over and over again, like there's gonna be things families have and do that we don't. And our reasons can be vastly different. Either one, we're choosing not to go to take everyone to Europe. Like you know your friends, which is great for them. And I don't ever want to bash anyone that has that's doing something more. Not make them the villain. They're not the villain. That's what they're choosing to do. That's not right or wrong. But as a family we're choosing not to do that. We don't have that in our budget this summer. And so I will straight up with my older one just like we'll talk about money and so from that side. But it also bleeds into, you know, you're not getting a cell phone until you're a freshman in high school. Like, like there's other things that she's going to want in life. But if my rhetoric is consistent, Winston and I's of there's gonna be families that have and do things that we just don't for certain reasons. They know that's a baseline that we're not gonna look and act like everyone else around us. And so whether that's going to the zoo, that looks different cause our budget's just different. Or you want social media and you're not getting social media until you're 16. You know, whatever it is like families are gonna do and have things that we don't.

[C]

That's really good too to eat even just have that concept and believe in as an adult as well. I admire so much. I always bring up Caleb and Abby, his brother and my sister in law. They shamelessly stick to their budget. And I think it's also inspiring to the people they're talking to. So they got invited to go to dinner and they're like, it's not in our budget to eat out until this date. So we can go out after then or you can come over here for dinner. Like we're happy to host. And it's not even like they try to make up an excuse. And I honestly think that that. That is really admirable because it also inspires you to just be like, feel like you can make your own money decisions rather than just be like, oh, invite us to dinner. I was like, dang it. Like, I feel like we've been going out to eat a lot, and it's, like, adding up. Like, that budget's gone through the roof, and you just kind of feel like you're tossed in the waves of, like, invites and, like, you don't actually have autonomy over your own finances.

[B]

Totally. Yes.

[C]

And so I always admire that.

[B]

No, I love that, seriously, because I'm like, I think about other areas of life when you, like, how have that freedom to make your own decision so shamelessly that you're like, oh, yeah, I don't have to, like, make up a big excuse about it. You know, we're just talking about kids. But, like, sleepovers are becoming a big thing. And I'm like, I don't know how I feel about it. I don't know. But I'm like, it's okay. It's okay if I'm like, hey, she's not gonna sleep over tonight. We'll come get her at, like, 10pm you know? But I feel the need to, like, justify or excuse or make the other person feel okay with our decision or something. You know what I mean? Like, I bounce around that a lot where I'm like, yeah, there's something about just, like, being cool, confident in what it is, whether it's a parenting decision or a money decision or a marriage decision. And you're like, no, this is what we're doing, and we're great with it. And yeah, no shade on the person that's kind of getting, like, the reaction because of our decision. This is what we're doing, and we're good with it. There is freedom.

[C]

And I think that any decent person you want to be friends with is going to understand and be like, no, that's awesome. I should probably have a t. A look at her budget, you know?

[B]

Totally.

[C]

And so, yeah, I was just thinking about that.

[B]

That's so good.

[A]

Something I want to talk a bit about. With the nature of inflation the past couple of years and prices going up, when we bought our house, I was like, shoot, if we would have bought a house a year and a half earlier, it would have been nearly half of what we bought a house.

[C]

We were 10.

[A]

If I could have bought a house in 08, man, like, everything is so expensive. And I know there's a lot of young people, a lot of friends that we have. Just in general, it's really hard to own a home. What are people to do with the financial turmoil we're in?

[B]

So I would always go to logic first and foremost. So go to the numbers because I think we can get really emotional with things where we're like, oh my gosh, this and this and I don't know, you know, like, and we can kind of get spun up in our emotions with it. So when your emotions rise high on a topic, go to the numbers. Like, go logic. And so run them out and just say, okay, here's the reality, here's what my income is today. And the reality is your income is going to go up over time. It is. So, so we know that's going to happen. But what are the houses in our area? And the reality that sucks. And it's true, like you said, if we bought a house, you know, my husband and I, we built in 2019. So I'm like, I don't know how we like, yeah, we like got right before the whole thing because we couldn't afford our house today, like genuinely, like we wouldn't be able to have this house. When you can look and say, okay, here's the reality of our world and my expectations, what they would have been four or five years ago. That's not what the reality is today. And that sucks. And kind of mourn that. Like, right, like if you're like, oh my gosh, I had this area of Phoenix, you know, that your friends, like, this is where I thought we would live and we could have afforded in 2020, but now we can't. Like that sucks. And that's okay to feel that way, like be in it, like that's not fun. And then after that, let's move on to the numbers and say, okay, what can we afford? And so what you want to look at is to say, okay, at least have 5% down for a down payment. And then you want to do a 15 year fixed rate mortgage where your mortgage payment is no more than 25% of your take home pay.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

Kind of our formula.

[C]

Wait, wait, wait.

[A]

Why not an arm, why not an adjustable.

[C]

I got some, I got a formula and I got confused. Wait, say that again.

[B]

So at least a 5% down payment, okay, that's like your goal. 20% would be amazing because you could avoid PMI, but 5%, especially for first time home buyers, 5%, okay. And then we always recommend a 15 year fixed rate because we want you out of debt as quickly as possible versus a 30 year. And then your payment should be no more than a quarter of your take home pay, 25% of your take home pay.

[A]

Okay?

[C]

Okay.

[B]

So that's the goal because people that's mortgages or even rent, that bump bumps up to like 50% of their take home pay. They don't have any margin to do things like invest and like, do you know what I mean? Have a life. So you don't want your house to become a curse financially. You want it to be a blessing. And so having that margin, which again, our formula is pretty conservative and I'm sure there's me a lot of people in the comments that are like, there's no way I can afford, you know, so the key there is, okay, our expectations have to shift, that we may not be able to buy a home in the area that we thought we were, or the size or the year it was built or whatever, fill in the formula and it may take us longer time wise to sit to do this formula. That's the key. And so you may have to drive 20 minutes out further than what you were expecting or whatever it looks like for you. But fitting it in there financially is going to be huge. But the reality is it's going to take longer for people. And again, I will say it again, your expectations have to be lowered because it's just more. It is so expensive today and so it's going to take longer. It may not be the house that you 100% want, but getting in the market as soon as possible is really important because everyone thought there was going to be a big bubble, like, you know, as everything was like doubling, right? Like in like 2021, 2022. It was just crazy. Everything was like getting so big, people were like, oh, it's gonna be a real estate bubble. It's all gonna pop. It's gonna be like, you know, 08 again, you know, nope, hasn't happened. And they continue to steadily increase home values. Very small. It's not like what it was, but it's going up. So the sooner you can get in again with that formula, not having debt, having an emergency fund, having some of that, then get in. But it may take you longer.

[A]

I know a lot of people think of owning a home as an asset. I know there's a lot of mixed opinions on that. You know, certain experts saying, hey, maybe focus on investments elsewhere, not relying on your home being your retirement plan. There's a Neighborhood that I had some family members live in in St. Louis when I was growing up that every time we'd go visit them, I noticed the neighborhood would get worse and it got more run down and things just weren't going well. And when I hear people talking about having a home as an asset, I always think about that neighborhood, the one where values were depreciating and everybody was moving out and it just got worse and wor. And worse. How can people protect themselves against that? How can they protect themselves against owning a house in a neighborhood where things are just getting run down and essentially the value of their home is decreasing?

[B]

Yeah, it's more of a rare instance, I would say, but that is, I mean, yeah, I think that can happen. So I think you do have to look around and say, okay, you can't predict the future. So you don't know if this neighborhood in 15 years is going to be different than it is today. Who knows? But I do. I think you do have to be wise and say, okay, are we buying at the top of the neighborhood? Like, are we buying the most expensive house in a crappy neighborhood? That's probably not a smart plan. You don't want to do that. So, yeah. So there's some decisions you can make around that. But I would say too, having a paid off home again for me is, that's like, that's the big goal, to have everything paid off. So for the experts that are like, yeah, just rent and put your money elsewhere, you know, I've heard them say that, but it's your biggest line item in your budget. And for the average person out there, like when, you know, when you're 65 and you're going into retirement, not having. Having a house payment, owning your home free and clear, regardless of the value of it or not, like it's free and clear.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So then you can actually let your retirement, which you've been saving for your investments, go so much further than it going to the biggest expense in your monthly budget. And so that's what I would say because I think too, you're trying to create peace in your life. Right. There is a level of these numbers that's fun to see, like investments go up and all that. There also is a level of I just want to create peace. I don't want this to be. Yes. I don't want a stressful situation. And so what happens is a lot of people, they just die. Right. Right in they get the home and they end up stressing out or they end up getting pregnant. Like we were talking about earlier and one of them wants to stay home. And like, we can't afford this because we literally bought at the top of like what we could barely afford. And now it's like our house has us and our house is the thing that's trapped us. And it was supposed to be the great thing that was supposed to be wonderful that we all wanted. Now it's the thing we hate the most, you know, so you just don't want to be in that situation. That's why more of the conservative approach people probably don't like. But it gives you options and margin and that's what we're shooting for.

[A]

And doing a 30 year mortgage. I've heard if you, if you do a 30 year and then you're also making additional payments along the way, that's going to shorten your timeline a lot. Do you have any firm opinions on that method rather than doing the 15 year?

[B]

The 15 year I like because it's locked into a formula that's going to get you out in 15. We're seeing most people are paying off their homes in seven to nine years.

[A]

Oh, no way.

[B]

Yeah. When they're doing the Ramsey plan, which is amazing. And so they're paying it off earlier anyways. But being as much locked in as you can be on your values. And if you can put things in place to create that boundary, the better off. So the 15 year just creates that boundary of like, for sure it's getting paid off in 15. Now some people will do the 30 and they're like, well, pay it like it's a 15 because you know, that'll be great. But life happens. And kind of like we're talking about giving, you know, you're like, oh, well, we could do this over here. We'll get back to that there, you know. So the 15 just kind of locks you into a formula to get it paid off. But if you have a 30 and you are out of debt, you have an emergency fund and you want to start paying your home off faster and you can run the math and it's crazy. If you just made like three extra mortgage payments a year, what it does to decrease to your point. So it is. There's something really powerful about having some of those goals to pay it off faster and how much money you save in interest and all of it. Because it's just a big purchase, right? I mean, it's the largest purchase anybody makes. And so it's a big deal.

[A]

Hearing you say that makes me go, oh, I can't Believe we didn't do the 15 year on our house because we were going to. And then. And then I think. Think it was either our realtor or the lender, like, talked me out of it. They're like, no, you should really just do 30 year and put some extra payments towards it. So we're doing that.

[B]

You got to stick to your gun. Car dealer.

[A]

I know. Okay. We do own our cars.

[B]

You're doing great.

[A]

So that, like, that was. That actually felt good. Like, when. Because they. They sent us the. The. What is it?

[B]

Yeah, in the mail title.

[A]

Yeah, the title. Like, we got it. Like, it's. Yeah. No car payment.

[C]

To your point, though, like, it is hard to follow these principles in today's world. Everyone trying to convince you that this is the better way. It's really not that bad. And it's just. It's hard to, like, live differently and to, like, treat your finances differently, especially when, you know, everyone feels this pressure to live outside their means.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You gotta live like no one else so you can live like no one else.

[B]

Matt has looked at you.

[C]

Matt.

[B]

Unbelievable.

[C]

Nine years.

[B]

I know. And I think what's hard, too, is, like, instant gratification has been so magnified in today's world. And I do think, like, social media, I think our attention span is so short, and that really goes into our money, too. So when you. I see it all the time, probably because my algorithm. But yeah, you'll see a reel on Instagram and they're like, here's, I have 40 Airbnbs and we make $5 million.

[A]

You know, it's a scam.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, you're. Yeah. And you're watching it and you're like. But if you don't know to your point, I'm like, there's something about, like, oh, that sounds great. And the fast tracking to wealth is everywhere and it always has been, but it feels more magnified today because I think people are stressed.

[C]

Million courses.

[B]

Yes, they are stressed. And they're like, okay, there's an easier path. I want to walk it. And you end up. You go. You go down an easier path and ends up screwing you. So, like, I'd say our method, it's more old school. It's more just common sense. It's not that complicated.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's worked for, like, literally millions of people, and you just have to do it. And it's. And that's the other thing, too. I don't mean this demeaning, but, like, it's average people. Like, it's just. They're not superheroes. They're not like, they're great. They're just like these quiet millionaires walking around that you'd have no idea. And they've killed it because they've, they've lived debt free. They fund their 401k and their Roth IRA. You know, they do all the boring stuff. It's not crypto, it's not exciting, but you just stay the path.

[C]

It's not glamorous.

[B]

Yeah, it's not glamorous, but you stay the path and you have peace in your life. You have stability, you have control, and you're good. It's not these like crazy emotions that sometimes that instant wealth can cause, like, I want to get rich fast, you know?

[C]

Yeah, we've kind of touched on some of these topics, but we're parents of toddlers. I know you have little ones as well. I know so many people listening have like little, little kids. I imagine money conversations start early in life. How do you have that, like, first money conversation with your kids? And like, basically the principle of we don't spend more than we make.

[B]

They're not perfect by any means, my parents, but they did a good job in this area of making it a rhythm of life. So it's like, we're not gonna sit down and like have a formal money conversation. Like, it's gonna be a part of life. And so, you know, so when the four year old's necklace breaks, you know, and they want a new one, I naturally, I'm like, let's go on Amazon. I'll buy a 20 pack for $4.99. And you can. But then I'm like, no, we're not gonna replace it. Everything that breaks. And we're gonna just talk about that. Like, oh, that. I hate that that broke. You know, maybe we can do something and we can save up a little bit and mom will give you a dollar or two too, and we can figure out how to like replace this. So you find these moments in life to use them as teachable moments.

[C]

I like that.

[B]

Versus like a formal kind of sit down. And I found that too. Again, I'm not a parenting expert by any means, but even other areas of life, like friendship stuff or sex or like whatever it is like with our kids, I'm like, it's just part of life. Like, it's like the rhythm. And when a situation comes up, it's like, oh, hey, here's what mom was thinking about this. And you just let them know and you kind of just have that conversation more when something Arises versus a formal sit down.

[C]

I like that. And I also like how you bring up the example of necklaces. Because, like, we've been talking. I have so many mom friends that have little kids. And then we always say, it's no big deal. We can get another one. And then it's like, wait, that doesn't really teach them how life works. Money works. Like, there's just this abundance that's coming from somewhere.

[B]

That's right. That's right. Yes. And that was me. I mean, I did that so many times. And I caught myself. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Because it's just easier in the moment. They cry. You're like, I just want it fixed. Like, I have two other. I have a baby here. I have this toddler that's going crazy. My other one's. And I'm like, we'll get another one. Don't worry. And you just, like, want to move on. And sometimes it's survival mode. So I give a lot of grace. Do what you got. Yes. I've done that so many times. And I'm the spender, so I'm like, oh, don't worry, girl. We'll get you another one. And so I had to catch myself in that. And then what I've learned, too. And you'll learn this with your kids. They have different money personalities. So it's so funny to see them come out. And middle is so much like me. I mean, she's a little consumer. Like, she just wants and wants and wants and wants. Like she sees something. Mom, I want this, want this, want this girlfriend just wants things all the time. And so I finally had to set her down, and, like, I was like, caroline, we can't just keep wanting. And here's why, Mom, I get this, Caroline. I get it. I want something new. Like, when I get Amazon earrings, like, I get excited. Like, I. I understand this so much. But what we have to learn, like, our stuff and that excitement, it lasts two minutes, and then it's gone. And then it's just like another pair of your shoes sitting in your closet right now. They're not exciting and fun and new anymore. And so if the next new pair gives you that same excitement and you do that over and over and over again, you're gonna just run, Caroline. And get nowhere. So we have to stop and, like, sit in the disappointment of all of our stuff is old and not fun. And let's just be there. Cause I have to do that. Like, genuinely, I have to do that. Like, I wanna go and Shop all the time. Like, no, Rachel, just sit with your clothes for a month and don't buy anything new. It's okay, you know?

[C]

Yeah. You've shared that.

[B]

But it's hard. Yeah. So it's just, like, the contentment stuff. But again, my oldest doesn't struggle with that as much. She's more of the hoarder, where I' Please have some fun. Like, you can spend some of this money that you've worked so hard for. So they're gonna have different personalities, so you kind of have to, like, balance it. But it's fun when you see yourselves in them.

[C]

Totally.

[B]

And you're like, I get it. I get it. And also, you're gonna struggle with what I struggle with as an adult.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I like that conversation of contentment. Especially in, like, today's world, like, we've talked so much about, like, you're always. I think social media is probably the biggest culprit of this.

[A]

So bad.

[C]

You know, there's always, like, this is my necessity. Or, like, these conversations of, like, the must have, like, everyone. Everyone's gotta, like, there's so much pressure to have an overabundance over consumption. It's a big problem nowadays. And I like this conversation of contentment. I guess, like, you've opened up a little bit. Can you expand a little bit about how you were, like, noticing that in yourself and how you can kind of work against that?

[B]

Yeah. I found myself asking the question, if nobody sees this purchase, do I still want it?

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Like, how much of my motivation is for other people? And y' all do the Enneagram?

[C]

A little bit.

[B]

Okay. I'm getting lied. No big deal. No big deal.

[C]

I lied to get what I wanted. I was like, I want to be in heaven. Seven sound fun.

[B]

They sound fun, right? I know. I want to be a seven, too. Yeah. I'm such a three. So if you do the Enneagram, you'll know that. And I'm like, it is. It's so innate.

[A]

I'm a three. What is the three?

[B]

It's the performer.

[A]

Really?

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

I do.

[B]

Like, it's probably us.

[C]

Oh, wait. What's the maximizer?

[A]

We did meet doing musical theater, so we.

[B]

Oh, yeah. There you go. Okay. I love it. I love it. Yeah. So I just found myself so much of my motivation was for other people. And I'm like, what does that say about me? Right? So I'm like, what is going on in me? And so doing some, like, major self reflection, some good therapy, all in it for other reasons. But that Part came out of my. Of my need to not only just be liked, but a level of, like, peace and like, hey, I'm gonna take care of a situation because I want to make sure everyone's good. Like, there's so much of us that come out. And it's crazy that I'm like, it all spawned because I was like, oh, I want to buy this whole cart of anthropology clothes. Like, but why? Why do I want this new stuff all the time? So there's that also in me, a level of excitement, like it does. And I think for anyone. But when you buy something new, it's exciting. So find if I'm bored, I found myself, especially during COVID I'll just scroll. I'm like, oh, I'll put that in.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

You know, and you kind of just like, end up doing it because you're bored and you need this like dopamine hit of getting excited. So I had to learn, put down the phone and just like, go walk, Rachel. Go do something. Like, change up what you're doing, even physically versus just sitting there and scrolling. So it's those kind of questions and situations that I ask myself. And, you know, one thing that I have realized, though, is that stuff, stuff is not bad, right? Buying stuff is not bad. But you always. It's okay to have nice stuff. Just don't let your nice stuff have you. And it can have you. When you go into debt for it because you've borrowed for it, it owns you financially. And it also can have you when that identity and contentment is wrapped up so tightly in that thing. And that's even the car example we're talking about, the new car. It's like, why? What is the real motivation, right? And we can get to that root. I think it helps us make better decisions financially. But it's so hard. It is so hard. And when you can justify it, because if you do have the money and it's in the budget, I'm like, ah, it's just like $20 shirt here. You know, you kind of just like, eh, it's not that big of a deal because it may not hurt on that side, but what it's doing to you and just realizing, oh my gosh, I'm like trying to find my happiness and my excitement in life and buying stuff, and it gets you nowhere because it just becomes a whole other thing, right? That just sits there. So it's a lesson I continue to learn, Abby.

[C]

But it's real because you're like, okay, well, if no one knew that I had this thing dressed. I want it.

[A]

Well, Rachel, thank you so much for coming on our show. Where's the best place for people to connect with you?

[B]

Oh, gosh. As we were just bashing social media. I'm on social. I'm on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook. I'm there trying to put out good content to the world. And I have a podcast, the Rachel Cruze show, and a YouTube channel. I'm also a host of the Ramsey show and Smart Money Happy Hour. Thanks for having me on.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

I so appreciate all you guys do.

[C]

The honor is ours. Seriously.

[B]

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[C]

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