Stretched to Their Limits: Rock 'Em Socks

Summary

The Unshakeables: Episode Summary – "Stretched to Their Limits: Rock 'Em Socks"

Release Date: April 16, 2024

Introduction

In the gripping episode titled "Stretched to Their Limits: Rock 'Em Socks," The Unshakeables podcast delves into the tumultuous journey of Rob Starkman, the founder of Rock 'Em Socks. Hosted by Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business, and Tanya Nebo, a seasoned lawyer and business consultant, this episode uncovers the challenges and triumphs Rob faced while building his sock business from the ground up. This detailed summary encapsulates the key points, discussions, insights, and conclusions drawn from Rob's inspiring story.

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1. Rob Starkman's Early Struggles and Business Genesis (00:01 – 03:22)

Rob Starkman's entrepreneurial journey began unexpectedly during his sophomore year at the University of Central Florida in 2008. Unlike his peers stressed about internships and majors, Rob was confronted with a life-changing challenge when a Fortune 500 company threatened to sue him.

Rob Starkman [00:17]: "I just remember getting that lawsuit, my heart dropping. And so that was a major shock to the system."

Despite the legal threat, Rob's determination did not waver. He believed he wasn't alone, as other small businesses faced similar pressures. This belief fueled his resolve not to back down.

Rob Starkman [00:34]: "I was not doing that. Like I had way too many chips in this and I didn't want to give up."

Rob's passion for basketball, influenced by his family's deep involvement in the sport, led him to work for his college's men's basketball team. Faced with inadequate team gear, Rob took the initiative to customize black and white socks into the university's colors—black and gold—by dip-dyeing them at his mother's house. This innovative solution not only satisfied the team but also sparked an entrepreneurial opportunity.

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2. Launching Rock 'Em Socks and Rapid Growth (03:22 – 05:39)

Rob's dorm room transformed into a makeshift dyeing operation, catering to the increasing demand from his teammates. Recognizing the market potential, he expanded his operations by purchasing blank socks in bulk and selling them online.

Rob Starkman [03:54]: "I put a pair of socks up on eBay, and I'm telling you, within five to 15 minutes, it sold, and it was in Australia."

The immediate success on eBay validated Rob's venture, prompting him to formalize his brand name—Rock 'Em Socks. The name was a perfect blend of basketball terminology and the action of wearing something proudly.

Rob Starkman [04:14]: "Rock Em socks was just, like, absolutely perfect. And I was like, that's it."

Within two weeks, Rock 'Em Socks was selling 100 pairs daily, leading Rob to prioritize his business over his academic pursuits. The relentless work ethic saw him dedicating 16 to 18 hours a day to production, even causing accidental stove explosions in his apartment complex.

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3. Transition to Professional Operations and Legal Challenges (05:39 – 10:26)

As demand surged, Rob shifted his sales platform from eBay to his own website, diversifying his product offerings with various color combinations. Despite operating solo, Rob maintained his commitment to his college team, ensuring his business growth did not compromise his responsibilities.

However, the turning point came when a major athletic brand accused Rock 'Em Socks of trademark infringement, alleging that Rob was selling their socks as officially licensed products. This legal threat was a severe blow, not just financially but also emotionally.

Rob Starkman [08:57]: "We used that case study and I believe they prevailed in saying that customization of an existing product that they bought at retail is not illegal to resell that as a service."

Rob's strategic legal defense, supported by a precedent where a similar lawsuit was dismissed, ultimately saved his business from being crushed by a corporate giant. This David versus Goliath moment was a testament to his resilience and unwavering commitment.

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4. Operational Hurdles and Internal Struggles (10:26 – 15:21)

With the legal hurdle cleared, Rob focused on enhancing Rock 'Em Socks by developing proprietary socks, thus eliminating dependence on third-party products. This move not only improved product quality but also increased profit margins. The brand's alignment with the burgeoning streetwear trend and sneaker culture amplified its popularity.

However, scaling the business brought new challenges. Rob hired a friend to manage operations, which initially seemed promising but soon revealed severe management issues. The new hire's erratic behavior and lack of professionalism led to internal chaos, culminating in a betrayal where key employees were poached to start a competing sock business.

Rob Starkman [14:54]: "I just turned 27, and at the time, that was, like, the worst thing that ever happened in my life. Like, backstabbed by close people that I thought I was giving opportunities to, thought we were working on great things with."

This betrayal forced Rob to make drastic decisions, including purging 80% of his staff, and left him grappling with diminished confidence and trust within his team.

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5. Recovery and Strategic Growth (15:21 – 17:55)

Recognizing his shortcomings in leadership and team management, Rob took full responsibility for the company's turmoil. This introspection led to significant personal growth, enabling him to emerge as a stronger leader committed to his team's success.

Rob and his revamped team introduced proprietary software, enhancing manufacturing efficiency and enabling rapid response to market demands. A pivotal moment arrived with the launch of "Grogu Socks" aligned with the "Star Wars: The Mandalorian" phenomenon. The ability to produce thousands of pairs swiftly allowed Rock 'Em Socks to capitalize on the show's immense popularity.

Rob Starkman [16:51]: "I remember going to the airport with nothing but 500 pairs of Grogu socks in a duffel bag... it's an unmatched feeling that I have never had before and just such a high for me after that."

This success paved the way for lucrative licensing deals with major entities like the NCAA, NBA, NFL, WWE, Nickelodeon, and Disney, expanding Rock 'Em Socks' market presence and product diversity.

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6. Current Success and Lessons Learned (17:55 – 24:26)

Today, Rock 'Em Socks produces 20,000 pairs daily, employs 30 full-time staff, and has diversified beyond socks. Rob credits his journey to relentless reinvestment, strategic decision-making, and unwavering passion.

Rob Starkman [17:55]: "You know we're a scrappy upstart company. We have zero investors and the sky's the limit for us and our team."

Rob's story underscores the importance of resilience, adaptability, and self-awareness in entrepreneurship. By acknowledging his mistakes and fostering a culture of trust and accountability, he transformed obstacles into stepping stones for his company's success.

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Key Insights and Conclusions

Resilience in the Face of Adversity: Rob's encounter with legal threats and internal betrayals highlights the unpredictable challenges entrepreneurs face. His ability to navigate these storms without losing sight of his vision exemplifies the essence of being "Unshakeable."

Importance of Leadership and Team Management: The episode emphasizes that scaling a business isn't just about product innovation but also about building and maintaining a strong, trustworthy team. Rob's initial struggles and subsequent growth in leadership underscore this critical aspect.

Strategic Adaptability: From customizing socks in his dorm to securing high-profile licensing deals, Rob's ability to adapt to market trends and leverage opportunities was pivotal in Rock 'Em Socks' expansion.

Personal Growth and Accountability: Rob's journey is also a narrative of personal development. By taking responsibility for his mistakes and learning from them, he not only salvaged his business but also laid a robust foundation for future endeavors.

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Notable Quotes

• Rob Starkman [00:17]: "I just remember getting that lawsuit, my heart dropping. And so that was a major shock to the system."

• Rob Starkman [04:14]: "Rock Em socks was just, like, absolutely perfect. And I was like, that's it."

• Rob Starkman [08:57]: "We used that case study and I believe they prevailed in saying that customization of an existing product that they bought at retail is not illegal to resell that as a service."

• Rob Starkman [14:54]: "I just turned 27, and at the time, that was, like, the worst thing that ever happened in my life. Like, backstabbed by close people..."

• Rob Starkman [17:55]: "You know we're a scrappy upstart company. We have zero investors and the sky's the limit for us and our team."

• Rob Starkman [24:26]: "One of the ones that I was thinking about today is how disciplined you have to be as a leader..."

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Final Thoughts

Rob Starkman's story is a testament to the indomitable spirit of small business owners who navigate through lawsuits, internal betrayals, and operational hurdles to build something remarkable. The Unshakeables aptly captures this journey, offering listeners valuable lessons in resilience, leadership, and strategic growth. Rob's experience serves as an inspiring blueprint for aspiring entrepreneurs aiming to turn their passion into a thriving business.

Transcript

[Tanya Nebo]

The typical college student is stressed about what to major in, how they'll do on midterms, and whether they'll land that competitive internship. But as a college junior, Rob Starkman was facing a totally different animal. A Fortune 500 company was threatening to sue him.

[Rob Starkman]

I just remember getting that lawsuit, my heart dropping. And so that was a major shock to the system. There was a lot of sleepless nights, like I was terrified.

[Tanya Nebo]

Rob believed that the company had sent the letter out to a few other small businesses and that many of them had folded under the pressure. But he wasn't going to back down so easily.

[Rob Starkman]

I was not doing that. Like I had way too many chips in this and I didn't want to give up. I'm like this 22 year old kid, like going up against one of the biggest companies in the world.

[Ben Walter]

Welcome to the Unshakeables from Chase for Business and Ruby Studio from iHeartMedia. I'm Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business.

[Tanya Nebo]

And I'm Tanya Nebo, a lawyer and consultant for business owners.

[Ben Walter]

On the Unshakables, we're sharing the daring stories of small business owners facing their crisis points and telling the stories of how they got through it.

[Tanya Nebo]

Okay, Ben, listen, I think you're really gonna like this one. It really has it all. Lawsuits, attempted coups, explosions, and that's just the half of it.

[Ben Walter]

Sounds dangerous and intriguing. Let's hear it.

[Tanya Nebo]

On today's episode, Rock Em Socks from Orlando, Florida. Rob Starkman has always been a bit of a late bloomer.

[Rob Starkman]

So I was 6 foot 3 leaving my freshman year of college and then I entered my sophomore year of college, 6 foot 10. So like literally over one summer, like all of my clothes didn't fit, all of my shoes were out of style. It was very fast and furious. I guess I actually just started shaving like two years ago. So we're still growing here.

[Tanya Nebo]

In 2008, he was a sophomore at the University of Central Florida and not totally sure what he wanted to do with his life. He tried out several different majors, but nothing really stuck. What did stick was his love for basketball. Not that he had much of a choice.

[Rob Starkman]

I would say like my heartbeat is a basketball dribble because my whole family is involved in sports some way somehow. My dad coached college basketball for 20 plus years. My sister played in college.

[Tanya Nebo]

During his freshman year, he started working for the men's basketball team as a student manager. He would film and edit highlight reels, help out during practice, and manage the team's equipment. But there was a problem with UCF's gear, they had recently changed suppliers and now only had generic jerseys, shorts, and socks available for the players. So Rob took things into his own hands.

[Rob Starkman]

I remember literally taking, like, track jackets to, like, an embroidery shop that was by a chicken coop in this little Podunk town right next to us because we just needed someone to put UCF on our merchandise.

[Tanya Nebo]

All the generic gear was in black and white, but UCF's colors were black and gold. So Rob took matters into his own hands.

[Rob Starkman]

So I took it back to my mom's house, and in her kitchen sink, dip dyed the black and white socks to then come out and be black and gold. And so I'm, like, wearing socks that are accustomed to our school. Nobody else has them. They don't sell them on the market. That's where some of the players on the team wanted to know where I got them from. There kind of saw a little bit of an opportunity to fill a hole in the market, I guess.

[Tanya Nebo]

Soon Rob was dip dyeing black and gold socks in his dorm room for all the players on the team. And everyone who saw them wanted to buy their own pair.

[Rob Starkman]

My entire dorm room became this, like, incredibly intricate operation filled with hot water and rit dip dye that I was going to Michael's and Joanne fabrics all around Orlando to get.

[Tanya Nebo]

Now, to meet the number of orders he was getting, Rob had to buy blank socks in bulk. And by the time he hit his junior year, he was ready to grow beyond campus. So he put a pair of socks for sale online.

[Rob Starkman]

I put a pair of socks up on ebay, and I'm telling you, within five to 15 minutes, it sold, and it was in Australia. And then just from there, it started to take off. It was probably like three to four weeks in, where I was like, I'm going all in on this. I'm going to ride this until the wheels fall off.

[Tanya Nebo]

Soon he decided his business needed a proper name.

[Rob Starkman]

So I sat down in my dorm room and, like, started writing ideas down for what the brand name should be. And it was like five or six names in before Rock em hit. The rock is a nickname for a basketball. To rock Em means to wear something. And so Rock Em socks was just, like, absolutely perfect. And I was like, that's it.

[Tanya Nebo]

By just two weeks in, Rock Em Socks was selling 100 pairs a day faster than he could even make them. And college became a bit of an afterthought.

[Rob Starkman]

I stopped going to basically every single class that I had. And my second semester in junior year, I basically failed everything, anything that wasn't.

[Tanya Nebo]

Related to Rock'em Socks was over for Rob. He spent all day and night dyeing and packaging socks for the store.

[Rob Starkman]

It was like 16 to 18 hours a day over a stove, making sure water's hot, pouring in the dye. It was just nonstop, like, steam everywhere, dye stains all over the counter. And I remember having gone so hard on the stove that I actually blew up two of them in my apartment complex.

[Ben Walter]

Tanya, I have to say it. Rob sounds like the worst roommate ever. Like, could you live with this guy?

[Tanya Nebo]

You mean the guy who takes over the kitchen is dyeing socks all over the place? Blows up the place twice? That guy? Ben? I. No.

[Ben Walter]

Yeah, I think not. So Rob's doing hundreds of sales only a couple of weeks into the business, and at this point, he's just selling on ebay. I mean, how's he gonna keep growing this business?

[Tanya Nebo]

Okay, so what he does is he actually moves his business from ebay to his own website, and then he started making socks in every imaginable, like, color combination. But yet he's still the only employee.

[Rob Starkman]

I'm, like, doing customer service, I'm doing shipping, I'm doing production, I'm doing procurement. And it was just like, nonstop. You know, I'm trying to build this as if it's a much bigger brand than it actually is.

[Tanya Nebo]

Even though Rob was all in on Rock'em Socks, there was one thing he didn't give up. He was still working for the men's basketball team in the weeks leading up to Black Friday. He was hardcore focused on his business and prepping for a rush of sales, but he still maintained his obligations to the team. He even worked at a basketball tournament in the Bahamas with the team on Thanksgiving.

[Rob Starkman]

We had made a ton of socks beforehand. We had gotten all of our socials ready, and, like, we got just blown out of sales. That Black Friday night, Rock'em Socks had.

[Tanya Nebo]

Sold a thousand pairs in just one night.

[Rob Starkman]

I knew that this was a fork on the road moment. It was like, first year. I'm like, I'm 21 and I'm like, geez, we did like a quarter of a million dollars in business. I was loving just the 18 hour days of hustling and building a brand. And I knew that that was the last time I ever stepped foot in a class.

[Tanya Nebo]

Rob knew that he wanted to drop out of school to pursue Rackham full time. So he made a plan for how to tell his mom.

[Rob Starkman]

I'm gonna take my mom out for breakfast and I'm going to take her to an outside restaurant. So that she won't cry in front of everybody. And I just told her. I was like, hey, Ma, got this opportunity. I'm gonna see it through. And she goes, you're dropping out of school. And I was like, I am. Yeah, I am. And she's just like, I'm so disappointed in you.

[Tanya Nebo]

Rob's parents didn't talk to him for the next four months. But by this point, he had other problems. Copycat brands had started popping up and selling the same product. He knew he'd have to differentiate Rockham to survive, and he knew just how he'd do it.

[Rob Starkman]

I found out about how you can customize, like, T shirts. And so there's a process by which you can print out an image and then transfer it via heat onto a T shirt. And I was like, nobody's ever done this with socks before, so let's, like, try it out with socks.

[Tanya Nebo]

Rob bought the image transfer machine and was now able to design all types of socks.

[Rob Starkman]

From there, we were able to expand beyond just dip dyeing colors now into putting, like, actual designs onto socks. So we'd be able to go from. Instead of black and red, we might be able to put camouflage black and red with a logo on it.

[Tanya Nebo]

Rock Em Socks had another stroke of good fortune in 2012. It was sneakermania. Streetwear had crossed over into the mainstream, helped along by celebrities with shoe lines like LeBron James and Kobe Bryant. Rock'em started making socks to match each highly anticipated sneaker release.

[Rob Starkman]

And that became so popular in the sneaker industry that we were on top of that world for two to three years. We'd go to all the conventions, People would be wearing our socks with their sneakers. And so all these kind of trends are converging at the exact perfect time that we're building this brand.

[Tanya Nebo]

But it was at that moment that Rob's luck ran out.

[Rob Starkman]

That's where we get the big old letter saying that we're doing trademark infringement. And so that was a major shock to the system.

[Tanya Nebo]

Rob had been using blank white socks made by a popular athletic brand from the start. But now this company was threatening to sue rock'em if they didn't stop selling them. The company claimed that rock'em was selling their socks as if they were designed and officially licensed, but by the big brand.

[Rob Starkman]

At that time, there was a ton of, like, little copycat brands. And I would have to assume that they all got the same letter, because as soon as we got that, the competition stopped posting. They cut their websites out. They took their ball and went Home. I was not doing that. I had way too many chips in this and I didn't want to give up.

[Tanya Nebo]

Rob found a lawyer to represent the company and respond to the letter. He was bleeding cash. It cost him $50,000 in fees just to retain the lawyer.

[Rob Starkman]

I'm like this 22 year old kid, like, going up against one of the biggest companies in the world.

[Tanya Nebo]

His lawyer put together an argument asserting that customization is not illegal. Fortunately for Rockham, there was already a case precedent involving a well known brand that had sued a customizer for the same thing and that big brand had lost the case.

[Rob Starkman]

We used that case study and I believe they prevailed in saying that customization of an existing product that they bought at retail is not illeg can resell that as a service. And that is literally the thing that saved us. And I just remember the sigh of relief after like two months of not having received any other letters that I felt like we were finally in the clear. It was such a David versus Goliath moment that it doesn't even feel real at this point.

[Tanya Nebo]

Rob could now direct all of his attention back to building Rackham socks. But in early 2013, Rob realized that something about the blank socks he was using had changed. The dip dye didn't develop the same way, and the designs and colors wouldn't transfer properly. It exposed a real vulnerability in his business.

[Rob Starkman]

I remember coming to this realization that, like, I'm building my house on someone else's land to this day, like, it's so vivid that I remember having this phone call of, like, making the decision that we're gonna stop utilizing someone else's product and develop our own, or else we're eventually gonna die.

[Tanya Nebo]

So Rob and his small team worked with a sourcing company in New York to come up with the perfect prototype for a sock. Four months later, they'd perfected it. It was a better product with much better margins. Rock Em Socks continued to grow their reputation, especially in basketball. By Christmas of 2015, they had licenses with six colleges and could use their names, logos and colors on Rock Em.

[Rob Starkman]

Socks that just became very, very popular. Like we put a mascot on a sock. Just logos and crazy colors. And it was a different type of product that fans had never seen before. That really opened up our aperture of what you can do as a business. And from there, it was a dogfight to go and get every single other school.

[Tanya Nebo]

Rob began to travel around the country, meeting with schools. After landing licensing deals across the ncaa, Rob decided it was time for Rock Em Socks to break into entertainment and he knew just where to start. The wwe. Rob had landed a meeting with their licensing director, a longtime ww. He had been to a WWE match in middle school and happened to be filmed during it.

[Rob Starkman]

I had purchased the WWE streaming network and paused it. When I knew that, the cameraman went to me with a big old sign, and I was like, this is me, and I am a wrestling fan. You will never work with someone who is as passionate as I am about wrestling.

[Tanya Nebo]

Rob and his colleagues had a simple strategy for picking out licenses to pursue. Stick to what you know.

[Rob Starkman]

I think it's all about authenticity. We are huge fans of these licenses that we work with. It's so natural for us to say, like, hey, we know the fan. We know product that doesn't exist out there, and we can expand your market, and we are going to treat it like the absolute biggest thing in our own lives.

[Tanya Nebo]

By the end of 2019, Rock Em Socks had licensing deals with MLS, WWE and Nickelodeon. They were growing and growing fast. He decided to hire a friend with the background in operations who could help scale the company.

[Rob Starkman]

He was very instrumental in trying to scale the business, like, hiring a lot of people at the same time. There's, like, two factions of the business happening and splitting off the original people that I started in my house with and, like, was with from the beginning. And then, like, all these new people that this guy brought on and hired and led by him. And I just felt the business getting out of my hands and getting away from me.

[Tanya Nebo]

It was soon clear that Rob had hired the wrong person for the job.

[Rob Starkman]

It was always such a challenge to manage this man. He was very petulant, he was very emotional, and he would storm out of the office when any sort of argument would happen.

[Tanya Nebo]

The employee's behavior quickly took a toll on Rob and his colleagues.

[Rob Starkman]

I was ready to give up the business. I was ready to, like, just completely give up. It was like a week before Christmas time that year, and I called my mom and I'm like, I don't want to do this anymore.

[Tanya Nebo]

Around this time, Rob got a call from the vice president of rock'em Socks, his longtime friend Steve.

[Rob Starkman]

Steve calls me and he's like, this guy started another business, and it's a sock business. My heart dropped. And not only was it one guy, the founder of it, but as the co founder was our head artist.

[Tanya Nebo]

From there, things only got worse.

[Rob Starkman]

We have the business name. They, like, started a Facebook page, and we see the people that are following it. It's like eight of our employees. We basically devised this plan to completely purge everybody the day we got back from the office. And so we let go of 80% of our staff.

[Tanya Nebo]

Rob later found out that the head of operations had been spreading lies to the team so that he could poach employees from the company over to his own.

[Rob Starkman]

I just turned 27, and at the time, that was, like, the worst thing that ever happened in my life. Like, backstabbed by close people that I thought I was giving opportunities to, thought we were working on great things with. I felt disrespected. My trust was violated. And from there, I was looking around every corner, and there was, like, months of me just lacking complete and utter confidence.

[Tanya Nebo]

Rob was gutted, but over time, he started to take responsibility for what had happened.

[Rob Starkman]

Now, looking back, I could clearly say that without that, the business would not be where it is today. Because I look back on that moment, and I'm like, I was so immature, 26 years old, trying to oversee 20 people. I was so immature in coming across as putting myself first before the business and before a team, or not taking things as seriously as I should have. And, like, leadership wasn't even in my wheelhouse. And so after that, like, having to look back and stomach the fact that you are absolutely the reason why this happened to you, that was tough. That was, like a complete shot across the belt for an ego. And it completely brought me down to earth. And from there on, a hundred percent of my focus was put into being the best leader that I could be.

[Tanya Nebo]

Having to take stock also forced Rob to grow and to change for the better. He got himself and the company back on its feet, and thanks to a new proprietary software, rock'em was now able to make products quickly and on demand at the same time.

[Rob Starkman]

Disney launches Star wars the Mandalorian, and Grogu becomes like, a thing around the world, and, like, it instantly catches fire.

[Tanya Nebo]

Disney knew Grogu would be a hit, and they were right.

[Rob Starkman]

As soon as it launches, people are, like, clamoring for this product.

[Tanya Nebo]

Most manufacturers needed significant lead time, not weeks, but months, to make their products. But thanks to their new software, rock'em could produce large quantities quickly.

[Rob Starkman]

And I remember going to the airport with nothing but 500 pairs of grogu socks in a duffel bag. Get to the partners facility in Anaheim, which is right around the block from Disneyland. I'm getting in his car, and we get my duffel bag out of this guy's car, and I'm wheeling it into the back of a store. I'm like a child, you know, I'm like pointing people out wearing them. I'm following them around, taking photos of them. I bought pairs off the shelf so I have a receipt. It's an unmatched feeling that I have never had before and just such a high for me after that.

[Tanya Nebo]

Rackham continued to make 2 to 3,000 pairs of grogu socks a day. It also opened doors to other licensing collaborations. Today, Rock'em socks makes 20,000 pairs of socks a day. They have licensing deals with partners like the ncaa, the NBA, the NFL, Star Wars, Marvel, Warner Brothers, and yes, Disney. And that's just naming a few. They employ 30 full time employees and have even expanded their product line beyond socks.

[Rob Starkman]

You know we're a scrappy upstart company. We have zero investors and the sky's the limit for us and our team. The demand keeps on rising, the products keep on getting better and we keep on finding ways to deliver value across the entire chain that we work in.

[Narrator]

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[Ben Walter]

Tanya what a cool business. What a great story.

[Tanya Nebo]

Yeah, awesome story.

[Ben Walter]

You know, if you start right at the beginning, that is the ultimate bootstrap story if I've ever heard one. I mean he started with nothing. He built with virtually nothing. Now he had a business that didn't require a lot of capital, but he just kept putting money in, putting the the proceeds of what little he had back in and not taking Any outside money and building a business of that size, that's quite a feat.

[Tanya Nebo]

It's a tremendous feat at such a young age for him to know, to continue to reinvest in the business and the sacrifices that he made in doing so. That's great entrepreneurship there.

[Ben Walter]

You know, you have to decide what you're going to lead with. And he led with great product. He knew what he wanted to make, he made them well. He found something that there was demand for and he made a great product that people wanted.

[Tanya Nebo]

Yeah. And it was also a passion focused product. Right. It was in his background.

[Ben Walter]

The other thing that struck me was he had to be pretty fearless to drop out of school. Obviously his parents weren't too happy about that. To get a lawsuit from a major brand that everyone's heard of and to just keep going. Yeah, that guy's got grit and the.

[Tanya Nebo]

Strength to stand up and be able to say, you know, we aren't doing anything wrong, we're just gonna find a different way to do this, but we're not gonna be bullied out of business because of who we're facing. I think that's huge. That took a lot of guts right there.

[Ben Walter]

Yeah. And he characterized it, particularly at the end, about making hard decisions. And I think that is a story in entrepreneurship that is too often underplayed. Ultimately, when you're the boss and every buck stops with you, you have to make really hard decisions. He talked about hiring and firing friends. He talked about, you know, having to give really devastating news to his parents about his decision about school. You have to make some really tough calls that are tough, emotionally tough from a business standpoint. And they're not obvious decisions, they're difficult. You just can't underplay what that means in terms of the resilience that a business owner has to show.

[Tanya Nebo]

Yeah. I think the theme of courage is woven well throughout his story. And he even had to make some tough relational decisions even from the beginning. He had to make some, what I would say are some courageous choices that, I mean, they ended up paying off, of course, but he had to do that all throughout.

[Ben Walter]

The other thing that inspired me listening to him is, is how much he has become a self aware learner through his mistakes. If you think about particularly what, what happened with his employees and what happened with him sort of in many ways almost losing his business to one employee and a subset of employees. He didn't just do the hard thing, but he's thought really hard about how to make sure that never happens again, how to build in a Culture. My view is he acknowledged that he had some things wrong that allowed that to happen, and he's not about to let that happen again.

[Tanya Nebo]

He was great at staying the course, and he was also great at taking responsibility. You notice that throughout his story, he said, you know, it was on me. I take responsibility for this that happened, or I take responsibility for allowing people to come in and infiltrate the way that they did, and then used each of these challenges to just further elevate the company and where it was going. I think that's tremendous.

[Ben Walter]

What he learned is, you know, there was that book what Got yout Here, Won't get yout There. And I think what made him really good in the early days, which was being great at identifying a product, being great at getting that product out, at amplifying the marketing around that product, wasn't going to be what was going to make him successful as he started to scale the business. And I think he was self aware of that. And I mean, he learned it in a tough way, but he learned it.

[Tanya Nebo]

I think it's important for small business owners to look at how their organization is and the communication lines there and ensure that those are open somehow.

[Ben Walter]

I agree. I mean, that's not just for small business owners. That's for anyone. Right?

[Tanya Nebo]

That's true.

[Ben Walter]

Quality relationships and quality organizations are based on trust. And ultimately trust is the foundation of all of that. And if there isn't trust, then the rest of it is just commentary, to be honest.

[Tanya Nebo]

Yeah.

[Ben Walter]

If you've had to make that many hard decisions and you can come out of it on the other side feeling like you've learned and you've grown and you're ready for the next step, that's a real lesson in resilience.

[Tanya Nebo]

Yeah. I think he did such a great job with that. And to be so young in making these tough decisions and taking responsibility for his decisions, all these just kind of lay an amazing foundation for what's to come with this company. But it's a great lesson for other people to see as well.

[Ben Walter]

Tanya, I want to go to the advice that Rob shared with us because it had to do with his core values and one in particular that I think is relevant for every small business owner.

[Rob Starkman]

One of the ones that I was thinking about today is how disciplined you have to be as a leader. So being 100% disciplined across the board, making sure that things are done correctly, to your standard, but working with your team to get them to a point where they're doing that kind of work satisfactory. And so starting with that mindset that people around you are willing to work hard and willing to do the right thing as long as you teach them. It's all those things that you have to come to work every single day, 100% ready to lead your squad.

[Tanya Nebo]

Thanks so much for listening to the Unshakeables. If you like this episode, please rate and review it. It'll help our show find more listeners. I'm Tonya Nebo, and this is the Unshakeables from Chase for Business and Ruby Studio from iHeartMedia. On the next episode of the Unshakeables. Makeup artist and influencer Desi Perkins never set out to start a sunglasses company, but after a brand partnership turned sour, she decided to sever ties and start a company of her own.

[Rob Starkman]

Band Shakeables is a production of ruby studio from iHeartMedia.