Podcast Summary: The Unshakeables – "The State of Small Business: Holding Strong Amid Changes"
Date: December 9, 2025
Host: Ben Walter (A), CEO of Chase for Business
Guests:
- Michelle Rockwell (C/D), Co-Founder, Sheltered International (Freight Forwarding, FL)
- Tino McFarland (E), CEO, McFarland Construction (Construction, NC)
- Co-host Kathleen (G)
Episode Overview
This live episode of The Unshakeables explores the current landscape of small businesses facing economic uncertainty, particularly through the lens of those in supply chain logistics and construction. Host Ben Walter invites Michelle Rockwell and Tino McFarland to share personal experiences and reflections on tariffs, inflation, labor shortages, and regulation. The conversation highlights their adaptability, unique challenges, and the evolving nature of resilience in small business.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Tariffs and the Ripple Effect on Small Business
- Tariff Uncertainty: Despite a reported 11% increase in imports early in the year, Michelle reveals importers are holding back due to fear of future tariffs.
- Quote: “They’re actually holding back because of the tariffs. They want to see what the next step is going to be.” – Michelle [01:54]
- Customer Behavior: Many clients imported extra in the first half of the year in anticipation of tariff hikes but have since become conservative.
- Quote: “They're real conservative because, you know, it affects the price of their goods.” – Michelle [02:11]
- Immediate Impact: New tariffs often apply regardless of shipment departure, creating costly surprises for importers.
- Quote: “It doesn't matter if your cargo was already on the water... tomorrow you're going to pay 55%.” – Michelle [02:44]
2. Price Sensitivity and Shrinking Margins
- Customer Loyalty Tested: Even long-standing business relationships are sensitive to small price differences.
- Story: Michelle lost a client over a $200 difference on a $70,000 shipment [04:01].
- Service as a Differentiator: For Michelle's boutique firm, “white-glove” service is a key competitive edge as pricing wars intensify.
3. Navigating Regulatory Chaos
- Constant Vigilance Required: Regulatory changes come quickly and unpredictably.
- Quote: “We have literally seen three different changes in one day... it doesn’t go into effect until it's printed in the Federal Register.” – Michelle [05:09]
4. Construction: Shifting Demand, Squeezed Margins, and Risk
- Commodity Inflation: Costs are up across labor and materials (steel, concrete, lumber, etc.), while project pricing and fees face downward pressure.
- Quote: “You’re seeing cost increased on the labor side... and commodities with structural steel, concrete, plastics, lumber...plus requests to extend payment terms.” – Tino [06:16]
- Sectoral Shifts: Office and retail are sluggish, while industrial (data centers, warehousing), life sciences, and institutional projects are booming.
- Quote: “We've moved from spend in office/retail to life sciences and tech. Those are the opportunities.” – Tino [07:18]
- Growing Risk: Bidding on tighter margins and guarantees increases stress and risk for construction firms.
- Quote: “We're taking our work at maybe lower margins, more aggressive schedule... it feels more risky.” – Tino [07:57]
5. Labor Market Dynamics
- Shortages and High Expectations: COVID-19 permanently shifted worker expectations. Skilled and unskilled labor is hard to find, with job perks, culture, and amenities now crucial for retention.
- Humorous Quote: “I always joke...this bacon too crisp notion has come into play. Now it's, the bed's too hard, the water's too cold and the bacon's too crisp and they’re off.” – Tino [10:30]
- Attraction and Retention: Diversity and positive culture help McFarland Construction attract skilled professionals (representing 13 nationalities across 105 employees) [12:11].
- Low Labor Demand in Logistics: In contrast, some import/export clients aren’t hiring because shipments and business volumes are down [13:01].
6. Immigration & Visas
- Direct Impacts: Logistics companies encounter issues when drivers are undocumented and detained, risking business continuity [13:36].
- H1B Uncertainty: Around 10% of McFarland Construction’s workforce is H1B visa holders, and administrative changes create anxiety for both workers and employers [13:54].
7. Small Business Vulnerability: Safety Metrics & the EMR Story
- Safety Incidents & Disproportionate Impact: A single injury at a smaller company can dramatically raise EMR (safety rating), harming the ability to secure contracts (notably with the Army Corps of Engineers) [15:09–17:55].
- Quote: “You're a small contractor, you can have a guy tweak his knee and your EMR can go north of one, and all of a sudden you're viewed as a risk.” – Tino [15:41]
- Adaptation: McFarland invested in safety professionals, new tech—a costly but necessary pivot to regain client trust.
8. Inflation: Mixed Relief and Persistent Uncertainty
- Inflation Easing, for Now: Commodity prices have leveled but remain elevated; tariff uncertainty looms.
- Quote: “I think it has maybe steadied a little bit because the tariffs have... at an even where they've been for a while.” – Michelle [19:18]
- Contracts and Pricing: Construction vendors shorten price guarantees, necessitating real-time cost management.
- Quote: “Vendors will guarantee pricing for a shorter amount of time... revisiting of pricing more frequently.” – Tino [20:11]
9. Comparing COVID’s Disruption to Today
- COVID vs. 2025:
- During COVID: Overwhelming demand, logistical gridlock.
- Today: Demand uncertain, clients paralyzed by cost fluctuations, persistent regulatory whiplash.
- Quote: “You’re just as busy, but for a different reason... you’re not really moving the freight now you're just dealing with customers on a different level.” – Michelle [21:10]
10. Messages for Policymakers
- Appeals for Predictability:
- Michelle: Resolve tariff decisions before publicizing for market stability [23:26].
- Tino: Greater consistency in regulation supports planning, hiring, and investment [23:44].
- Quote: “Consistency in our book is king... The more that we can plan and predict... the better.” – Tino [23:44]
11. Advice for Small Business Owners
- Strategy, Self-Awareness, and Partnerships:
- Tino: “It's not for the faint of heart... Lead with strategy. Mindset is everything. Surround yourself with good people... There’s a lot of opportunity for success.” [24:26]
- Michelle: “Partner with people... kind of is your opposite. Stay positive and work hard, but you’re gonna have to work together.” [25:16]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On Tariffs:
- “Sometimes those things go into effect and there's no backdating... tomorrow you're going to pay 55%.” – Michelle [02:44]
- On Labor Culture:
- “The bed's too hard, the water's too cold and the bacon's too crisp and they're off...” – Tino [10:30]
- On Policy:
- “I don't think they understand what they do to people at our level. And it does affect... all the customers we do business with.” – Michelle [23:35]
- On Resilience:
- “Small businesses, for the most part, aren't just going to take off on day one... there will be a lot of challenges and long nights. Do it with people you respect.” – Tino [24:32]
Key Timestamps
- 01:54 – Michelle on clients holding off imports amid tariff uncertainty.
- 04:01 – Losing clients over small price differences; margins squeezed.
- 05:09 – Navigating shifting tariff regulations and the Federal Register.
- 06:16 – Tino outlines inflation across labor/materials and shifting project types.
- 07:57 – Construction risk rises due to tighter margins and aggressive guarantees.
- 10:30 – Tino’s 'bacon too crisp' story about evolving worker expectations.
- 13:54 – H1B visa program worries and workforce uncertainty in construction.
- 15:41–17:55 – EMR (safety metric) and its outsized impact on small contractors.
- 19:18 – Current inflation and commodity prices.
- 21:10 – Michelle contrasts COVID demand with today’s uncertainty and client paralysis.
- 23:26–23:44 – Direct messages for lawmakers about the need for stability and predictability.
- 24:26–25:16 – Closing advice for small business owners.
Host and Co-Host Reflections
- Ben Walter: Highlights the duality – businesses are stressed by confusing signals (tariffs, inflation) but remain resilient and adaptive [25:38–32:58]. Advises listeners not to be led by media panic and instead “watch the street, not the tv” [27:58].
- Kathleen: Observes that challenges often forge stronger, more adaptive business models. Notes how real-world experience trumps headlines or abstract analysis [26:53–28:33].
Overall Tone and Takeaway
The episode is candid, practical, and empathetic—capturing the no-nonsense, solution-oriented mindset of small business owners navigating chaos. Discussion is detailed but approachable, replete with real-world anecdotes and relatable humor (e.g., “bacon too crisp”). Listeners gain both current context and timeless wisdom about weathering uncertainty, focusing on relationships, adaptability, and the relentless search for new opportunity.