It's still way too hard to switch phones

Summary

The Vergecast – July 8, 2026: "It's still way too hard to switch phones"
Hosts: David Pierce (A), Allison Johnson (B)

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Episode Overview

In this hotline-focused episode, The Verge’s David Pierce and senior reviewer Allison Johnson tackle listener questions about living with smartphones, parenting in a smartphone world, and — above all else — the stubborn, surprising complexity of switching phones (and carriers) in 2026. The hosts dive into the practical, emotional, and technical realities of modern phone life, with ample humor, real talk about parenting, and some memorable takes on how tech companies and carriers keep us in their ecosystems.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cameras vs. Phones for Baby Photos

• [03:45] Listener Q: Is a point-and-shoot camera under $500 worth it, or should we just stick with our phones for kid photos?
• [04:38] Allison: Points out most parents buy cameras with good intentions, but end up mostly using their phones. The camera market has shrunk—decent new point-and-shoots at $500 are almost nonexistent.
• [05:37] David: Remembers Nilay Patel’s dedication to the Sony RX100, but agrees the entry point for a worthwhile upgrade is higher than most expect.
• [07:01] Allison: Recommends experimenting with third-party phone apps to regain control over image processing, and, if parents want higher-quality “event” photos, to invest in a fun lens for their existing DSLR rather than a new camera.
• [08:00] David: Notes that the parent who brings a DSLR to the party and shares photos becomes "beloved in your community."

Notable Quote

• “Unless you’re committed to bringing [a point and shoot] with you absolutely everywhere, you’re going to miss those photos anyway... your phone is perfectly adequate.” – David ([07:48])
• "You’ll become very powerful, 100%." – Allison, on being the parent with the DSLR ([09:16])

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2. Cutting Down on Phone Time as a Parent

• [10:56] Listener Q: Can an Apple Watch become a semi-smartphone to help cut down on phone dependence, especially with family responsibilities like location sharing?

• [12:14] Allison: Her real-world Apple Watch experiments suggest it works solo, but gets 'hairy' with kids, as essential features (CarPlay, full navigation, emergency comms) still require a phone.

• [13:57] David: It’s “OK to have your phone with you all the time. I have my phone with me all the time." Argues it's a fact of parent life; using your phone less isn't just a matter of discipline or throwing your phone away.

• [15:00] David: Suggests two solutions:

  • Aggressively use Focus Modes (to change your phone’s behavior/context based on time or location).
  • The Brick: a simple NFC gadget that physically enforces app lockdowns—adding friction to mindless doomscrolling.

• [17:22] Allison: Advocates for adding friction and proactive alternatives — like having a crossword book handy — to help break phone habits.

• [18:27] David: Advises to set up your phone ‘aspirationally’: "Dress your phone for the job it wants, not for the job you want." (= put positive, intended-use apps front and center).

Notable Quotes

• “The solution to use your phone less is not just be more disciplined… it’s also not throw your phone into a river.” – David ([16:45])
• "Dress for the job you want… Dress your phone for the job it wants, not for the job you want." – Allison and David ([19:02–19:10])

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3. The Frustration of Switching Phones & Portability

• [21:09] Listener Q: Why is it still so hard to switch phones (and carriers)? Are major US carriers intentionally adding friction to lock customers in? Can true ‘one-click portability’ ever exist, enabling seamless device switching?

A. Is it a Grand Conspiracy?

• [22:55] Allison: Acknowledges some security rationale, but also suspects “shenanigans.” eSIM simplifies iPhone-to-iPhone but remains unreliable across ecosystems. “IPhone to Android or Android to iPhone is like a coin toss. I'm like, I don't know, this might work. I might be at the Verizon store in 20 minutes.” ([23:19])

• [25:01] David: Notes much of the world has it better—the SIM card paradigm—while Americans are stuck in a system that amplifies switching costs (with iMessage and FaceTime as the real lock-ins). Even if you solve technical hurdles, messaging and social ecosystems keep users tethered.

B. Would ‘True Portability’ Actually Change User Behavior?

• [26:18] David: Imagines a utopia where all data and messages switch instantly between devices—asks if people would seriously live with a weekday and weekend phone. Consensus: unlikely, due to hardware, Bluetooth, and convenience friction. “There's actually still enough cost in chargers… even if you solve phone-to-phone problems.” ([27:23])

C. Carriers and Tech Company Motives

• [29:13] David: Asks directly about carrier and tech company intent.
• [29:25] Allison: “I don't think they minded that it was difficult. I mean, especially Apple. We kind of have the receipts…” ([29:25]) Suggests Apple especially has benefited from high switching costs.
• [29:54] David: Recalls when carriers required you to get a new number to switch — “not going to give this up easily.”

D. Will It Ever Get Better?

• [31:28] David: Optimistic that carrier-side innovation (multi-device accounts, Google Voice-like features) may reduce friction for “multi-device lifestyle” users, but sees full, easy portability as a pipe dream.

Notable Quotes

• “If I can call and be like, hey, it’s me, Allison, put my number on this phone instead, then we have a problem.” – David ([23:14])
• “We report to the carrier store, you say, here it is, and they give you the new one and it looks a little bit different. It’s sticky.” – Allison ([27:06])
• “Every phone is just a glass and aluminum box just waiting for everything to arrive.” – Allison ([29:02])

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Memorable Moments

• The Brick ([15:00–17:00]): David’s description of using a physical NFC device to control smartphone modes is both practical and comical (“…acknowledge that I am deciding to be a bad person who hates my children, and tap the thing again. That’s not actually true, but that is sort of how it feels…”).
• Aspirational Phone Setup ([18:27–19:10]): The “dress your phone for the job it wants” metaphor sticks out as a clever summary of how to manage digital habits.
• Parenting Chaos ([10:02–10:37]): Shared stories of babies’ attempts to destroy whatever parents hold provide relatable levity.

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Segment Timestamps

• [03:43] — Camera vs. Phone for Baby Photos
• [10:56] — Wearables and Parenting: Can the Apple Watch replace your phone?
• [21:09] — Why Phone Switching & Number Portability is Still So Hard
• [25:01] — International vs US Carrier Practices
• [26:18] — Ideal Future: Would True Portability Make Us Switch Phones More?
• [29:13] — Are Carriers/Tech Giants Intentionally Creating Friction?

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Conclusion

This Vergecast episode is a smart, funny, and occasionally exasperated look at why — despite years of technical innovation — switching phones remains daunting in the US, with Apple, Google, and major carriers often complicit in maintaining friction. Listeners are reassured that it’s normal to struggle with digital minimalism, and inspired to experiment with small hardware (and software) fixes rather than expecting a silver bullet from tech companies any time soon.

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For more listener questions, follow-ups, or to join in the discussion, listeners are encouraged to write or call The Vergecast's hotline.

Transcript

[A]

Hello, and welcome to the vergecast, the flagship podcast of number portability. I'm your friend David Pearce, and today on the show, we are going to answer your questions about phones. We try to do a hotline episode on the show every week or so. We have a lot of questions about smartphones, but not about, like, which smartphone should you buy? Because increasingly, I think that's a pretty easy question for most people, but questions about how do we move around in the world as people who have smartphones? How do we use our smartphones a little less? How do we manage our phones in a family full of people? We have a bunch of your questions. Allison Johnson's gonna come on and we're gonna answer as many of them as we can. There's a lot of fun stuff to get to, but first, here's everything else happening on the Verge today. This is 90 seconds on the Verge for Wednesday, July 8, 2020. Six new Pixel phones are coming. Google just announced an event for August 12th in New York City where I suspect we're gonna get new Pixels, new Pixel Pros, maybe a new Pixel Fold, maybe even a new Pixel Watch. Who knows what's coming after last year's deeply bizarre event with Jimmy Fallon? But in terms of the devices themselves, we're not expecting real fireworks. Slim, thinner, foldable phone. In particular, maybe a new design for the giant camera bar. Most of all, I think the biggest new thing about the Pixels is that they're going to be substantially more expensive, because everything right now is substantially more expensive. Thank you, Ramageddon. Oh, and by the way, there is a new Samsung foldable coming July 22. It is phone season, baby. We're so back. Meanwhile, Meta just issued an update to its smart glasses that makes a very small but very important privacy change. If the glasses detect that someone has tampered with or destroyed that little light that blinks when you're recording the camera will now be disabled altogether. This is a good change, and it's a response to a very real phenomenon of people hacking and disabling those lights. But that is just one of the problems facing Meta's smart glasses when it comes to privacy. And there are many, many more to reckon with. Finally, I'd like to briefly introduce you to Benny. This new dog like drone that runs and jumps and falls down and gets back up and was created by a bunch of former DJI employees. It's a Kickstarter project, so all normal Kickstarter caveats apply, but the Verge's Shawn Hollister took Benny on an adventure. And frankly, had a great time. The thing is adorable, creepy, dystopian, always on camera. Hellscape, absolutely. But also extremely adorable. I kind of love it. You can read more about all of [e-mail] that's 90 seconds on the verge for Wednesday, July 8th this episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check Responses Setup required. Compatibility and availability various 18 4th of July savings are happening now at the Home Depot with select appliances starting at $398 plus get free delivery on appliance purchases of $398 or more. No membership required. Upgrade your kitchen with a modern and sleek GE profile refrigerator featuring hands free autofill for the perfect pour every time and make laundry day with 2 in 1 washer dryer combo innovation that completes laundry in about 90 minutes. Shop Top brand appliances now at the Home Depot offer valid June 17th July at US only C store online for details. Joining me now the Verge is senior smartphone reviewer Allison Johnson. Hi Alison. Hello Alison. We have lots of questions from the people who demand answers. I will say these are largely not about E Ink phones, even though I have a limitless supply of questions about E Ink phones that I could have brought you should I have desired.

[B]

We could do another 30 minute segment

[A]

on E Ink phones easily. And we will. Believe you me, we will. For now I have a few questions mostly about phones, but I have one that's about cameras that I still think you are the correct person to answer. This one comes from David R. Who says, my wife had our first baby, a girl. Congrats David, in August. And as you can imagine, we've been taking tons of photos. I'm wondering if there's a decent point and shoot camera that's not too expensive, maybe under $500? Or should we just stick with our phones? We already have a Nikon dslr, so I don't want to spend a thousand dollars on a new camera when I could just upgrade the things for that one. You in a previous life were a camera person. You remain a camera person. You were also a person with a young kid who thinks a lot about photos. So my first question for you, and I think this is a question actually most parents grapple with when you first have kids, is, is a dedicated camera worth it? Over my phone for kid pictures specifically,

[B]

man, the eternal question. I found that I. So I have a camera. I have a Sony A7C. First year my kid's life came out a lot, took a lot of fancy pictures. I, it hasn't seen the light of day in several years. But I don't, I think every parent's mileage kind of varies. So my, my kind of instinct is like why, what, what makes you think you want a dedicated camera? Like what are the reasons if you want just like less connection to your phone. You don't want your, your phone in your face and your kids. Big moments, totally legitimate. The camera market is kind of like a weird mess right now. Like if you're talking about a $500 point and shoot, those are non existent.

[A]

Yeah, that was the part that tripped me up too is I think even if you want to make the spiritual argument for a point and shoot camera, which I think you can. Neal I. Patel bought a Sony RX100 when he had his first kid and swore by that. Like it's fast, it takes better pictures. It, it'll, it'll last you longer. Like there, there are a lot of good reasons to do it. It's, it's the $500 thing that I can't quite figure out because it's, there's just not a lot there.

[B]

Yeah, there used to be, there used to be just dozens of models at every price point in the market. They've all kind of gone away. You can, you can get a, a new Canon Powershot for somewhere around like $300, $400 right now. Otherwise you're looking at like a very exp. The, the used like resale market. And those prices are kind of insane. Yeah. For a variety of reasons.

[A]

The new power shots, those, those kind of. The ones that have recently, you know, had the huge come up on TikTok and there's. They're like retro cool all over again. Are those meaningfully better photos than you would get from your phone at this point?

[B]

It depends on what you're looking for. If you get something with a good amount of zoom, I think that can still best a phone camera in certain situations. Low light photos, not as great.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

But some people are really, really disliking the, the kind of, you know, color they're getting out of their phone cameras these days. The HDR look and all of that. If you want to run away from that, a compact camera is a great place to go. My instinct Is like get a fun lens for that Nikon DSLR. Like I have a 50, like the cheapest 50 millimeter possible on my Sony A7C and I never take it off unless I am forced to. And I love it. And it kind of like it's not a, an all purpose, bring it to the kids, piano recital, soccer practice, whatever lens. In theory I would bring it out more, but I still don't.

[A]

I actually think that's where I land too because I was thinking about my own experience as a parent and it's basically you take two kinds of photos, right? One is the sort of run and gun. We're out at the grocery store and they did something very cute photo. And unless you're committed to buying a point and shoot camera and bringing it with you absolutely everywhere, you're gonna miss those photos anyway. So. Right. And I think for the most part your phone is perfectly adequate to do those things. What I would argue for in those cases is like get a third party app, use like Halide or something, dumb down the processing, get a little more control over the photos that you're trying to want to take better photos in those instances. And then there's the flip side where there are things that are sort of obviously photography experiences where it's like, I'm going to one that we just had was like a birthday party where everybody was dressed up as superheroes. Like I know for sure I'm going to take a lot of pictures. And for that I think, I think you're right. Get a really fun, really versatile DSLR lens and just be the photographer at the party. And there's like, this is also a thing I've discovered. I don't know if this has happened to you, but like when there is the one person running around taking great pictures, they're like the hit of the party. And all of a sudden it's like, as long as I know you, if you're just a stranger taking pictures of my child, we have problems. But like the, the one parent who is like doing a good job taking pictures and then sends them around like you, you end up beloved in your community. So I think if you're willing to be that person, show up with the DSLR and just show everybody up with your awesome pictures.

[B]

Oh yeah, you'll become very powerful 100%.

[A]

But yeah, I feel like the middle ground of like, I do think a camera like the RX100 is going to take vastly better pictures than anything you're going to get on your phone. And if you want to step up a little bit. Like the Fujifilm X100 series. Also going to take better stuff, more fun. Camera to use isn't your phone. Those are all good things. It's a commitment to decide to live with one of those things with you at all times. And if you're not going to your DSLR and your phone combo, I think is basically enough.

[B]

That's where I. Yeah, yeah. You kind of have to be a I can't carry my camera everywhere person because you're gonna be carrying a baby everywhere now.

[A]

A baby who is really going to get very interested in trying to break whatever you hold in your hands.

[B]

Yeah, it's fun.

[A]

I have a 10 month old whose new thing is to try to knock my coffee out of my hands in the morning. And he just cackles at me as he tries to swat at it. He knows what he's doing and it's really. It's really something.

[B]

I have a maneuver I like shield the coffee and I like. Lennox is old enough at this point, but I'm like, I'm taking a sip of coffee. Like, don't make any moves. Like, even when it's not on purpose.

[A]

His thing for the longest time was he would get really excited whenever I was filling up a bottle when I had him in my arms and he would just like lurch around so much, I would end up spilling the formula all over everywhere and he would just die laughing every single time.

[B]

Oh, that's great.

[A]

He's like, my. My chaos is his absolute favorite thing. All right, David, I hope that all of that helps. Let us know what you end up deciding now. Allison, I have phone questions for you. More specifically, the people have phone questions for you. While we're talking parenting, let's. Let's stick with this one. We have a parenting question for you.

[C]

Hi, David. Apologies for another question about cutting down on phone time. Last year I switched to an mvno, which gave me a cellular connection to my Apple Watch. I love this because it reminds me of the last non smartphone I had that had a data plan but really only had access to a Java based Google Maps app. Feels like the correct solution to cutting down on my smartphone dependence and I'd like to continue to rely more on my watch as a semi smartphone. The biggest issue is that I have a four year old and a five month old and it feels weird to leave the house with them for anything beyond a neighborhood walk and not bring my phone. Same thing for when I go to the office where I use my phone on my commute. And listen to music while working. My wife and I also have access to each other's location for emergencies, and I can't tell to find my Apple to only track my watch's location instead of my phone. There's also the issue of convincing her that I can leave my phone and she'll still be able to reach me on my watch. I'm curious about your thoughts on cutting down on phone time. Rather well, it is a borderline essential tool as a parent. Thanks so much. Have a good one.

[A]

A running theme of our conversations here on the Vergecast, Alison, are why can't my Apple Watch solve all of my problems?

[B]

Oh my God, I love it.

[A]

And I feel this so acutely all the time. Yes, I know you reckon with this exact thing all of the time. Tell me what you think about this question.

[B]

Yeah, so my experimentation using an Apple Watch, like, kind of as my phone leaving the house without the phone, it was pretty centered on like, me going somewhere solo. So I, Yeah. Trying to like, extrapolate and think about how that would go on like a family outing or if I'm just taking my kid to the playground. Yeah, it does get a little hairy there. And I'm thinking of like CarPlay, you know, doesn't work. Apple Watch to car. You know, I tried. I couldn't trick the car into connecting to the Apple Watch. So something like that is.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

If you want directions on the fly to go somewhere else or you're. You have to play the Paw Patrol movie soundtrack in your car, otherwise there's a murder is going to happen. I'm familiar with all these pain points and I think it's easier to solve for the, like, well, what are you using your phone on your commute for? Is there another device that would do that? Maybe an E reader or another like an app that is on the smartwatch? You could subscribe to and, and get your books or podcasts or whatever it is. But yeah, the. The family situations, I think, are just trickier.

[A]

It is. And I think, I think to some extent this question is a little bit like just asking for permission to have your phone with you all the time. And I just want you to know it's okay to have your phone with

[B]

you all the time.

[A]

I have my phone with me all the time. Like, I would love to use my phone less. I don't. And it's fine. We're all just getting through life together here. But I think to me, there is something in here that is like, okay, how do I make it so that I can switch my phone into something less than it is without losing the essential features, right? And this is where Find my, I think, is actually a perfect example of the sort of thing that you can't just leave your phone at home because it's actually important that your family be able to track you. If this is a thing your family has decided, leaving your phone at home defeats the whole purpose of this feature, right? So even if it's like, okay, just replace your Spotify with an ipod, Problem solved. Like, actually, no problem not solved at all. And this is like, this is the endless battle of the minimalist smartphone is figuring out what is the exact threshold of all of the stuff that you need and nothing else. Nothing has remotely come close to achieving that threshold. My immediate thought on hearing this question was that there are two solutions I can think of that will, like, largely help the symptoms of the problem here, right? The problem is not, I have a phone. The problem is I look at my phone too much, which, as a parent, holy Lord, do I feel that I'm, like, sitting there next to my child scrolling slack. And I literally. I had this thought just the other day of, like, oh, thank God, he won't remember this because I'm sitting here looking at my phone. And then I was like, I could just stop looking at my phone. Like, this is. I could just literally stop looking at my phone. But anyway, the two thoughts that I had were that you could really, really aggressively embrace focus modes, which is essentially a way to either manually or by time or even in some cases, like geofence, your way to say, when I'm home, my phone becomes something else. And you can make certain apps harder to access. You can change your wallpaper, you can change your lock screen. Like, all this stuff that just sort of sends the signal to your brain, I don't want to be on my phone. And then when you leave, it can switch to, I'm commuting now. I have permission to use my phone for all that it's worth. So I think focus modes is a good software version of that. And then the other one is the brick, which I'm increasingly sort of a zealot for. The idea of the brick, which is a very simple gadget that you tap with your phone and it changes the mode that you're in. You have to tap this little rectangle of plastic, and it uses the NFC reader to switch your phone's mode. And what it can do is it can turn apps off, it can change some settings for you. It basically, it shuts down all the things that you want to have shut down. When I have used my phone the least at home. Home has been when I basically, like, walk into the kitchen, tap the brick, all of my social media apps go away. I can't open them if I want to unless I physically get up, go over to the fridge again, acknowledge that I am deciding to be a bad person who hates my children, and tap the thing again. That's not actually true, but that is sort of how it feels, which I think is the point.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, I want to look at Reddit now as a thing. I have to, like, say in my brain as I tap back on the brick. And I think that little bit of friction is really useful. And I think you and I have talked about this before, but it's like, the solution to use your phone less is not just be more disciplined, which is a really annoying thing that people say and I think is completely unrealistic for most people. It's also not throw your phone into a river because of all the reasons this question asker is bringing up. That's not feasible. But I think you can add. You can make it harder to do the things on your phone that you don't want to do, and that will make you do them less. Or at least that's been my experience.

[B]

And if you can, this is easier around the house, but, like, make it easier to do something you don't mind as much. I have. I have, like, a USA Today book of crossword puzzles. And so they're easy enough that I'm not going to get, like, frustrated.

[A]

But it's like, it's slander for the USA Today.

[B]

Okay. We all know the New York Times is. Is the goat. USA Today is tricky, but, you know, if that's sitting on the table with a pencil and it's right there, I'm like, well, I. I'll do this instead of, you know, and I have my phone, like, away from me. If you can kind of create the friction and if there's, like, it's something you can fill that void with. So because my kid's gonna interrupt me every five seconds anyway, I can put the crossword down. I don't know. I've had a little success with that. It hasn't been, like. Hasn't cured all of my phone ailments, but, yeah, friction where you can add it and then, like, maybe something pleasant that isn't your phone.

[A]

One piece of advice I give to people now is set up your phone aspirationally. Um, don't set up your phone as a response to how you actually use your phone. Set up your phone as a response to how you would like to use your phone. So it's like, I have the Kindle app on my home screen. Um, do I open the Kindle app as one of the 10 most open apps on my phone? God, no. But I'd like to. And so I'm trying to. I'm trying to put good habits right in front of my face. It's like shoving the junk food to the back of the cabinet. Right. Like, you don't have to get rid of the junk food. Just make it. Make it so that you have to reach past the good stuff and. And you maybe won't just slightly more often.

[B]

Yeah. Dress for the job you want.

[A]

That's exactly. Dress your phone for the job it wants, not for the job you want.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

That's really good, Allison. I like. We're going to put that on a T shirt. We're going to put that on a phone case is what we do.

[B]

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[A]

All right, let's get to our next question.

[C]

Hey David, this is Ellen from Minnesota. My burning thoughts or question. We all talk about how it's so hard to leave iPhone because even though we like Android on principle or we like most things about it, we just can't. We just can't. We have to make a two year decision every time we choose a phone, which makes it impossible to choose a dumber phone, a light phone, an E ink based phone. What if the future of all of this is just maximum portability? I was astounded in my switching to one of the mint mobile like carriers. I won't say which ones the MVMOs, how simple it is to just go back and forth between phones. As an app developer, I can switch between Android and iOS and really the only it takes maybe an hour but it works pretty seamlessly and their support's really good. And I've tried to do that on Verizon before and it takes like a day and I have to open a new account. And I almost wonder if the mainstream carriers create that kind of friction as a feature to keep their customers locked in to making two year phone decisions. And so I'm wondering if the future of all of this and all of these types of devices is just one click portability.

[A]

Alison, this is yet again one of the things we keep talking about. You switch phones all the time. I want to separate this question into two parts. One is, is there a grand conspiracy afoot to make it hard for you to switch phones and or carriers? And two, if we can fix that, can we make everybody's phone lives better? So let's, let's start with the first part here. What do you think? Is it. Why is it so hard to switch phones and carriers?

[B]

Man, I spend a lot of time thinking about this. I think like some of it I believe is real. You don't want to make it like too easy for someone to impersonate another person and be like, I want to put my phone line on this phone and steal all your crap or whatever.

[A]

Sure, if I can call and be like, hey, it's me, Allison, put my number on this phone instead Then we have a problem.

[B]

Like, I get that. I concede that. I think. I think there's some shenanigans. And I personally deal with Verizon when I need to make a sim maneuver that I can't handle myself. And it. It, like, has gotten better, but I think it has reinforced. It's like the move to ESIM is kind of. You would think it would open things up a little bit, and it. Maybe it will, but so far, it has just kind of reinforced the boundaries of, like, it is real easy to switch an ESIM from an iPhone to an iPhone, and I don't lose any sleep over that. IPhone to Android or Android to iPhone is like a coin toss. I'm like, I don't know, this might work. I might be at the Verizon store in 20 minutes. You know, so that has. I keep hearing from both of these companies, from Apple and Google. They're, like, working on it, and it's getting a little better and sort of is. I don't know if that solves every problem. I mean, there's still the. The iMessage and FaceTime of it all. So if you're making a conscious decision to, like, use a light phone on the weekends, you're, you know, probably fine not having iMessage and FaceTime. But for a. A person who's just kind of like, well, I want to have, you know, this, like, little pixel phone, and it only has certain apps on it, and it's the one I'm going to use when I want less distractions. It's. It's still a little. Little hairy out there.

[A]

Yeah. I think what I should say is, to everyone who is listening to and watching this who is not in the United States of America, please understand that I know that you're screaming at your device. This is how it works everywhere else. I understand that. I do. I think that is largely the correct way, where essentially your account is your SIM card, and you can put that SIM card into any phone that you want, and by and large, it will work. It's not exactly like that, but it's kind of like that. The flip side is now the thing that you're actually tied to is WhatsApp, right? Like, my. The way I'm locked into my iPhone is the way that you, dear Europeans, are locked into WhatsApp. And that is. It's a cheaper thing to be locked into, certainly, but it actually has maybe even higher switching costs. So I think. I think your point is the right one. That actually, even if you make it super Portable to jump from device to device. There are a lot of other problems, right. That like every time you turn off imessage, you just won't get messages for a while. You will just miss messages. It's just a thing that happens every time you switch. You have to learn new interfaces. Like these things are just complicated. But I do wonder, and I'm just like, if we could just. When they appoint us the heads of phones, you and I become the czars of phones for the world.

[B]

Love it.

[A]

And we just destroy all switching costs. And all of a sudden it is, it is free and it is fast and there are no technical thresholds to jump over that. All I have to do is say I use this phone now and all of my stuff, all of my data, all of my messages, everything moves from device to device. Is this even a thing people would do? Right. Like there's this theory of, oh, I'm gonna have a phone during the week and I'm gonna have a dumb phone on the weekends or I'm gonna have a vacation phone or whatever. Like, is this, is this a real, actual mainstream use case? Even in the very best case scenario?

[B]

Yeah. I feel like not kind of the current way that especially in the US Another disclaimer. You know, we, we get our phones through our carriers pretty much. And you're usually trading in your old

[A]

phone, which is usually an old version of the phone you're about to buy. In almost every case, this is how people buy phones.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You get the new one of the one you already have.

[B]

Yeah. You report to the carrier store, you say, here it is, and they give you the new one and it looks like a little bit different. Yeah. I don't know, it's. It's sticky.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

There is something I think intellectually really great about having like a dumb phone for the weekends that I think even, even in the absolute best case scenario where I just, I just press two buttons and all of my stuff goes to that phone. There's actually still enough cost in chargers. And in like an experience I had very recently was every time you use a new device, you have to pair it to your car. Right. And that's annoying.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so there's just. You actually literally can't solve all of the problems in the world even if you solve the sort of phone to phone problems.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The thing that gives me hope is the idea that maybe the way around this is through some of the carrier programs, we're starting to see that like Verizon and T Mobile are poking at these Ideas about, like, well, what if you could just have a bunch of things on your same line? Like, do you remember when Google Voice first came out a million years ago and its whole thing was just, it'll ring all of your devices. It's just call forwarding, but it'll forward to a bunch of your devices all at once.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's a group of people who are like, oh, that's awesome. This means now any phone that I have, it can just ring to that phone and that, that turns out to be pretty meaningful. And if they can then sort of extend the rest of that experience out, that I can just go in and flip a setting and it's like, okay, the Pixel phone that I've already set up and the light phone that I've already set up, I just, I'm just moving my number between them or I can have it in both. That starts to feel like something of a solution here. But I think this idea that, like, every phone is going to be perfectly available to you and you just have like, magical, beautiful switching costs forever, I just, I don't see it. It seems impossible to me.

[B]

Yeah. Every phone is just a glass and aluminum box just waiting for everything to arrive.

[A]

It's beautiful.

[B]

I love this.

[A]

It sounds lovely.

[B]

Yeah, I want it.

[A]

I mean, I agree, but you're dancing around the real question here, Alison, which is, is there a grand conspiracy theory to make it hard for you to switch phones? I see Google and Apple colluding to make it impossible for you to switch phones.

[B]

I don't think they minded that it was difficult. I mean, especially Apple. We kind of have the receipts like, well, we don't want to make it too easy for people to just give their kid an Android phone. All that stuff has kind of come to light. I don't know. I think there's a little bit on the carrier part where they're like, yeah, you know, we'll, we'll make it kind of easy to, to change carriers, but not, not super easy.

[A]

Like, I, I mean, there was a long time where if you wanted to switch carriers, you had to get a new phone number.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, they had to basically be bullied out of that kind of switching cost. They're not, they're not going to give this up easily.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah, it has gotten easier. And now like, T Mobile is perpetually out here with commercials being like, we'll pay your Verizon bill forever if you just come to T Mobile instead.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, it always feels like that stuff is going to be hostile rather Than cooperative.

[B]

Yeah. Like if I want to take the cellular Apple watch off of my Verizon plan, if I bring it up at the store, they're like, oh, we can't do that here. You need to call. Like, really? What does the customer service person have access to that?

[A]

Like, you know, what is it that you do here?

[B]

It's just stuff like that. They're like, oh, well, yeah, he gotta go talk to that guy. Like, sure, okay. Yeah.

[A]

My thing is like, I don't necessarily see it as sort of deliberate conspiracy so much as like there's one person at each of these companies who works on these things and that person is like a 14 year old intern.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so they're like, well, technically this is a team we have here that is staffed on the make it easy to transition from an iPhone to an Android phone. We're not preventing it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

We're just not doing any work at all to make it possible. And we invent lots of new features without thinking for one second about what it might be like to try to use them on an Android phone. And that is both a bummer and sort of a completely rational decision for all of these companies to make.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's real.

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

I do feel like someone will do better on the carrier side in particular and that will be very exciting. Like the thing where I can just have a bunch of devices all attached to my account and trust that the most important things will get routed to the right places at the right time. T mobile is almost there. Verizon is almost there. Google Fi is almost there. Like somebody will get that. Right. And I think there is a subset of people who want this kind of multi device lifestyle who will be all over it.

[B]

Yeah, I, I welcome it. My Apple watch has like a secret different phone number. Like why this is not necessary. Please solve this.

[A]

Yeah, 100% agree. All right, thank you to everybody who called and sent us emails. Keep sending questions, keep sending questions about E Ink phones in particular so that Alison and I have an excuse to keep talking about them. Allison, good to see you.

[B]

You.

[A]

Thank you as always.

[B]

Yeah, thank you.

[A]

All right, that's it for the show. Thank you to Allison for being here and thank you as always for watching and listening. We love getting all of your questions. I cannot say that enough. This is one of our favorite episodes to put together every week. Thank you to everybody who writes in vergecastheverge.com is the email. Thank you to everybody who calls 866. Verge11 is the hotline. Keep them all coming. Smartphones, life as a person in the world, everything else. We want to hear all of it. And as a reminder, as always, always the best thing you can do to support everything we're up to here is to subscribe to the Verge. Theverge.com subscribe it gets you all of our podcasts ad free, including this one. It gets you all of our exclusive newsletters. It gets you all of our coverage of phones and everything else. We're kind of rounding into phone season as we get here over the next few months, so keep it locked. Theverge.com subscribe gets you everything. The Vergecast is a Verge production and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. This show is produced by Josh Kahas, Eric Gomez, Brandon Kiefer, Travis Larchuk, Buck and Aaron Lacassio. We'll see you tomorrow. Rock and roll.