Vergecast Episode Summary

Title: Millions of books died so Claude could live
Date: February 3, 2026
Host: David Pierce (The Verge)
Guests: Will Oremus (Washington Post), Julia Alexander (Puck), Jen Tuohy (The Verge)

Overview

This episode of The Vergecast explores two main themes:

1. How AI companies, particularly Anthropic, have used unprecedented and destructive methods to scan millions of books for training large language models like Claude—including legal, ethical, and technical implications.
2. Netflix’s evolving approach to movie theaters and the future of theatrical releases, especially as it explores acquiring Warner Bros., and what it means for the entire movie industry.

The episode also features a listener Q&A on IKEA’s smart home gadgets, examining real-world frustrations with the Matter standard and Google Home integrations.

Segment 1: The Book Scanning Race—Anthropic’s Project Panama & the Ethics of AI Training Data

Timestamps: 03:31–33:54

Introduction

• David Pierce sets the stage by summarizing the escalating lawsuits about how AI companies source their training data, with a focus on books and recent exposés on Anthropic's “Project Panama”.
• Will Oremus (Washington Post) joins to break down how Anthropic and other AI companies went about acquiring millions of books to digitize and ingest into training models, and the fallout of these actions.

Key Discussion Points

What Was Project Panama?

• Project Panama was Anthropic’s initiative (late 2023/early 2024) to, as internal docs put it, “destructively scan all the books in the world.” [05:55]
• Destructive because books’ spines are sliced off for efficient scanning, rendering them unusable—hence, “millions of books died so Claude could live.”
• Not just Anthropic: other companies (OpenAI, Meta) were doing similar things; lawsuits and unsealed court documents have illuminated Anthropic’s specific process.

Why Books?

• Books are seen as high-quality, carefully edited, rich, and structured sources of knowledge—very appealing for training large language models (LLMs).
• “On average, books are high quality content. Somebody went to a lot of effort to write them, somebody deemed them worthy of publishing. They might be fact-checked. They might contain information you can't get anywhere else.” — Will Oremus [07:23]
• Some speculate that Claude’s writing prowess (as compared to GPT or others) stems from this focus on book datasets.

Sourcing the Books: Piracy and Logistics

• The initial stage wasn’t buying or scanning physical books, it was pirating shadow libraries like Libgen—huge, Internet-based repositories of millions of scanned books, often of dubious legality. [10:44]
  • “The way they actually started was not by acquiring real physical books... but by pirating vast libraries of already digitized books. These are called shadow libraries.” — Will Oremus [10:44]
• OpenAI and Anthropic were both implicated.
• For physical copies, Anthropic hired Tom Turvey (Google Books project veteran) to acquire large volumes quickly; mass purchases were made from used book warehouses like Better World Books.
  • “Let's go hire the guy who literally oversaw the Google Books project...” — Will Oremus [14:00]
• Books were supplied by the hundreds of thousands for destructive scanning, using “hydraulic powered cutting machines." [17:16]

Legal and Ethical Fallout

• Lawsuits by publishers and authors allege copyright violations—much hinges on whether this constitutes fair use.
• Initial court rulings have been split but suggest that training on the content of books may be transformative and thus fair use, but illegally acquiring the material remains a problem. [21:05]
  • “Judges... both found that the actual training of the AI model on the book content was fair use... The problem was how you acquired these books in the first place.” — Will Oremus [19:01]
  • Anthropic settled for $1.5 billion, but the legal ground is unsettled and the logic behind some rulings is murky (e.g., getting in more trouble for books not used for training).
• “If they had just come to the end of ‘well, we can't do this, this will take a while and cost us a lot of money’ and they had decided to take the time and spend the money, I think as a society, we might feel really different about AI.” — David Pierce [27:28]

The “Galactic Scale” AI Race and Original Sin

• Pierce presents a “galaxy brain theory” attributing ongoing public distrust and backlash against AI to OpenAI’s early, academic/guerrilla approach becoming industrialized without ethical adaptation.
• AI companies feel compelled to act fast and loose due to the existential “race” mentality: “There is no good guy here. There is only winning and losing.” [29:12]
  • “In AI... this industry is so shaped by this idea that we have to be first in order to save the world.” — Will Oremus [32:58]

Notable Quotes

• “Hydraulic powered cutting machine”—David Pierce [17:16]
• “If your defense is this was fair use, that the reason you acquired these books was to do something totally different with them, then the ones you didn’t use, that can’t be fair use... So what [Anthropic] got in trouble for were the ones they didn’t use, ironically.” — Will Oremus [23:57]

Segment 2: Netflix, Movie Theaters, and the Future of the Blockbuster

Timestamps: 36:44–68:33

Introduction

• Julia Alexander (Puck) returns to discuss Netflix’s shifting stance towards theatrical releases, especially as it eyes acquiring Warner Brothers Discovery—what does this mean for movie theaters, studios, and the definition of a “movie theater movie” in 2026?

Key Discussion Points

Netflix’s Changing Tune on Theatrical Releases

• Netflix historically dismissed theaters, focusing on streaming-first strategies but is now making more overtures towards theatrical releases as part of Warner Bros. takeover posturing. [39:41]
• “Now all of a sudden they're saying 'actually, we've always loved theaters...'” — Julia Alexander [39:41]
• Theatrical films tend to perform better on streaming, due to larger marketing, perceived higher quality (“straight-to-DVD” stigma persists), and overall greater cultural impact.

Business Realities

• Netflix’s engagement growth is slowing; films (especially those with a theatrical build-up) are key for driving streaming viewership. Data shows people watch more films with a theatrical pedigree. [41:44]
• The traditional revenue “windows” after a theatrical release—DVD, premium cable, etc.—don’t exist for Netflix. This impacts the economics of going theatrical.

Will Netflix Actually Support Theatrical?

• Netflix may do splashy one-offs (e.g., Greta Gerwig’s Narnia film in IMAX), but it's unclear if it will sustain 15+ wide releases/year like Warner Bros. or Disney. [43:55]
• “The but is whether or not Netflix commits to releasing 15 movies in theaters... that's the big question.” — Julia Alexander [43:55]

The Decline of Theaters: Business Model Shifts and Audience Habits

• Theaters face a supply crunch; studios are making risk-averse films, leading to less overall content. Audience numbers are way down, and the biggest films alone can’t sustain theater operations. [46:47]
• Surprisingly, lack of compelling movies (not just high costs) is the biggest reason people aren’t going to theaters. [47:15]
• “It is the proverbial chicken and egg question in this industry.” — Julia Alexander [47:15]

What Will the Future of Theatrical Look Like?

• The era of frequent “medium-budget” movies is over; the future may be eventized blockbusters or alternative in-theater programming (marathons of anime, classic films, maybe even YouTube or TikTok).
• “You do need to provide an alternative that people are going, oh, that is worth ... the $30. Because the films themselves... people just don't associate the value of that film to $30 anymore.” — Julia Alexander [52:48]
• Experiences and fandom (e.g., “Barbenheimer,” sing-alongs, nostalgia screenings) will likely be increasingly central to making theaters worthwhile. [54:57]
• Julia advocates for experimental theaters that embrace social, phone-friendly (with designated sections), and communal experiences.

Studios, IMAX, and Nostalgia Events

• Only a limited number of movies “deserve” IMAX, yet competition for those screens is intense and limits total revenue. [57:52]
• Suggestion: fill theater schedules with high-performing “nostalgic” favorites (e.g., The Devil Wears Prada, Mean Girls) to stabilize revenue and support riskier new releases. [60:51]

Netflix’s "Death Spiral" for Movies

• Netflix is incentivized to make movies suited for distracted at-home viewers (i.e., action in the first 5 minutes, repeat the plot), not for the focused, communal experience theaters demand. [62:57]
  • “Netflix is just so rapidly running away from the thing that would work [in theaters]... in order to make the reality of the Netflix experience work for people.” — David Pierce [62:57]
• Julia’s hope: If Netflix acquires Warner Bros./HBO, it will let established movie execs do their thing instead of “Netflixifying” everything. [64:43]

Notable Quotes

• “If Netflix buys HBO... do you let Casey [Bloys, HBO CEO] do what Casey does?... Or does Casey have to start making Netflix shows?” — Julia Alexander [64:43]
• “Not all companies are going to exist forever. Like, companies come and companies go... will movie theaters be something that survives or will it give way to a new form of entertainment that is consumed communally... that we haven't encountered yet? I don't know. But I think it's worth protecting...” — Julia Alexander [67:10]

Segment 3: Listener Hotline—Smart Home Hell with IKEA’s Bill Raza Buttons

Timestamps: 70:09–88:16

Introduction

• Jen Tuohy returns to answer a listener question about integrating new $6 IKEA Bill Raza smart home buttons with Google Home and the broader frustrations of the smart home ecosystem.

Key Discussion Points

Listener Problem

• Listener Mike bought five IKEA Bill Raza buttons, expecting to use them as simple light controls via Google Home. Realized they don’t work; Google Home doesn’t support Matter buttons, leading to immense frustration. [70:46 — 72:36]

Explanation and Broader Context

• This is a Google problem not IKEA’s—Google Home still does not support the button device type in Matter; Apple, SmartThings, Amazon theoretically do, but only if their Thread implementations cooperate. [72:36]
  • “Google Home has the slimmest support for Matter devices of all the platforms.” — Jen Tuohy [72:36]
• Many in the audience are experiencing basic interoperability breakdowns, especially with new Matter/Thread networked devices.

IKEA’s Ambition & Matter’s Reality

• IKEA’s mass-produced, cheap Matter-over-Thread devices are stress-testing the entire ecosystem. Issues include pairing, Thread network compatibility, and unclear documentation—especially with Amazon and Eero having distinct, non-merging Thread networks.

The Frustration and the Promise

• For now, Google Home users are out of luck.
  • “Google has said they will support buttons, but right now I'm afraid you're out of luck.” — Jen Tuohy [87:58]
• IKEA has a great return policy, and more product waves are en route—but the Matter ecosystem, while promising, is still plagued by platform inconsistency.
• Pierce and Tuohy agree: the more people complain to Google about these failures, the more likely the situation is to improve.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Project Panama was something that Anthropic started... with the goal to, quote, destructively scan all the books in the world.” — Will Oremus [05:55]
• “Hydraulic powered cutting machine” — David Pierce [17:16]
• “If your defense is that this was fair use... then the ones that you didn't use, that can't be fair use. It can't be fair use if there was no use. And so what they got in trouble for were the ones they didn't use ironically.” — Will Oremus [23:57]
• “Theatrical movies perform better [on streaming]. ... The sentiment around theatrical releases [is] that they are higher quality.” — Julia Alexander [41:07]
• “You do need to provide an alternative that people are going, oh, that is worth... the $30.” — Julia Alexander [52:48]
• “Google Home does not support buttons in Matter, and this has been the case since Matter launched.” — Jen Tuohy [72:36]
• “The more you explain this, the angrier this explanation is making me.” — David Pierce [76:27]

Episode Structure and Notable Timestamps

• 00:02 — Cold open: David Pierce introduces the episode’s two themes (Project Panama and Netflix), plus teases smart home Q&A.
• 03:31–33:54 — Interview with Will Oremus: Anthropic, book scanning, legal and ethical dilemmas in AI data acquisition.
• 36:44–68:33 — Julia Alexander on Netflix, theaters, the future of moviegoing, and the shifting economics and culture around movies.
• 70:09–88:16 — Listener Q&A: Jen Tuohy answers questions on IKEA smart home gadgets, the woes of Matter and Google Home integration, and the messy reality of smart home “hell.”
• Throughout: In-depth, humorous, conversational tone typical of the Vergecast; witty asides, pop culture references, and listener engagement.

Summary Takeaways

• AI’s hunger for data has produced a destructive and ethically complex supply chain, with legal and reputational risks for all the major players.
• Anthropic’s book scanning is both uniquely vivid (“destructive scanning”) and representative of a wider, largely unrepentant industry trend.
• Netflix’s approach to theaters—as both business tactic and cultural signal—remains ambiguous, but the need for compelling, communal theatrical experiences is growing even as the financial and creative headwinds mount.
• Smart home technology remains tantalizing but exasperating, with gaps between the promise of interoperability (Matter) and the reality of platform fragmentation (especially Google).
• Across all topics, the episode is defined by a sense of living through pivotal, unsettled tech-cultural shifts—and neverending user confusion.

For further information or to participate in future episodes, contact:

• Podcast hotline: 866-VERGE11
• Email: vergecast@theverge.com