A (2:54)

cutter included at no extra cost when

C (2:56)

you buy the Milwaukee M18 String Trimmer Shop. Seven days of spring outdoor power deals at the Home depot now through April 29th.

A (3:06)

All right, we're back. It's time for some navel gazing. Joining me now, the two people with whom I like to navel gaze, Neelai Patel. Hey, buddy.

B (3:13)

Hey, how's it going?

A (3:14)

And Helen Havelak, our publisher. We. We. You're. You are the firewall, you are the business. We have a lot of, like, names and decals we need to print up for you. Helen, welcome to the show.

D (3:24)

Thank you, David. I'm excited to be here.

A (3:26)

So we haven't done a sort of full on meta Vergecast since the end of 2024. I think we looked back and it was like, December 10th of 2024. A lot has changed about the world and about the Verge and about everything since then. And we also, we just decided to do this episode because every once in a while we get to this point where there's a sort of critical mass of people asking us about sort of the same things about how we operate and how things work and what we're up to. And we're also in the middle of making lots of changes. So this just felt like a good time. Glad to have both of you here. So we're going to start with some news, which is that today, as you're listening to this Tuesday, our new website has rolled out. We've. We've redesigned the homepage. Um, Nilay, why don't you go first? Do you want to just describe what we've been trying to do with the new homepage?

B (4:12)

Yeah, uh, I'm really excited about it. I have to say on behalf of our product team that it's not a redesign, it is a restructuring and it's going to let us do a lot of things in the future. This is me trying to be a product person. It's a new architecture day. No, it's actually a pretty small redesign in the scheme of things. Obviously, people react to things that look different and it looks different. So our redesign in 2020, 2021, we made the story stream on the homepage. And basically the thesis was we should be able to tweet to our homepage. And so we introduced quick posts. Quick posts are all over the site now. They're in story streams. We use them for all kinds of things. One day they will be federated, which we can talk about. And we ran what looks like a social media feed and our incredible product manager Danielle has been doing all these user surveys and people are telling her that they use the site like social media because they want to get off of social media. So they come to our site to look at a thing that looks like a social media feed but is made by real people you can trust and is not algorithmic in that particular way. And they leave comments. And that's like one experience. Then there's another huge set of people that just want to see the stories, that just want to see all the stories from the Apple event or what the top stories that we've picked today are. And those ideas are in conflict. And I think, you know, if you were looking at the old site, you would just experience that all the time. There's this thing that looks like a revcron feed, there's like following buttons and then there's like our top stories. And then I keep joking that Richard Lawler, our senior news editor, has the single most knives out political job at the Verge because his job was to pin the stories that we thought were important in the feedback so they would stay there and everything else would flow around them. And that means people just ask them to do that all the time. So this is just like we've lived with this for a long time. We've had this design for a long time. And all we've really done now is we've taken the social feed component and put it off to the right and let it be a social feed with following at the top and quick posts. And it's just rev cron. It's the thing everybody wants from us all the time. Here's just a straight rev Cron feed. We're not going to pin anything. You can scroll down it, we can post to it. There'll be lots of quick posts in there. You can comment away on it. And on the left is kind of a more magazine situation. We're calling them story sets. And you can see we can just take big moments of news and group all the stories together. We can have the more biting magazine style headlines that are just like explosion and then there's. They have decks so we can explain what's going on in the headline underneath it, which I think is very important in this context. And so we just have an ability to program our like, big, fancy premium journalism all together and make things that kind of feel like magazine covers and let those live and breathe while the feed on the right gets to just like pop along in real time as everyone's posting all day long. And I think that's like a little overdue, quite honestly. We had to figure out how exactly we wanted to pull things apart. But it's just the beginning. Because what I really want to do is have more feeds and let you experience a Verge that integrates with the open social web and like, feels, I keep saying, like a tweet deck. I'm not exactly sure what that means. While we protect the, hey, it's an Apple event and you want to just show up here and see the top five stories from the Apple event and they're going to stay there and be there for you even while the real time feed is popping off over here.

E (7:28)

Okay.

A (7:28)

And Helen, what's your angle on this? I think, is this, is there a how do we make more money from the homepage question as part of this restructuring?

D (7:39)

There is definitely a how to make more money. I think there's also an answer to how do we make the website do a better job for people? Right. So as Neil, I said, we have kind of two audiences that hit the homepage. There's the people who are refreshing all day and they want this fire hose of fast turn content. And then there's a bunch of people telling us, you know what, you know, maybe I come to the Verge once or twice a week and it's hard to find things. It's hard to find the best things. The things I most want to read from a business perspective. When we launched the new homepage, we launched a new kind of ad in that feed. It is a promoted post. It is very straightforward. We called it a quick post ad, but you all know it from social media. Is a promoted post that runs in that ad, that feed of content. And I love those. They are very clear to the audience that they're advertising. They are very integrated. They are a better experience than dropping a banner ad. They also perform a lot better than banner ads. We ran a test and they were getting like 17 times more engagement than a banner ad.

E (8:34)

Right.

D (8:35)

And so this hopefully gives a better experience of the feed that will allow us to have more usage there and then we could serve more quick post ads there. Great. The other side is, you know, we're a subscriptions business. We're now almost a year and a half in and part of running a good subscriptions business is helping people discover the best content, like the meatiest, most interesting, most edgy tinealized point, like the most interesting possible headline. And so having the curated side of this will let us specifically surface the stuff that we know our subscribers love to read or that we know is like something you can only get on the verge that might make you more likely to subscribe. So there are definitely business reasons behind it, but I would say the kind of animating overall first principle is we need to do a better job of making people love using our website and use it more frequently.

A (9:26)

Okay, so in this this actually brings us to, I think our our first question of the episode, which is about, I think, if I'm if I'm remembering correctly, the last major feature we launched, which is following. So this is a question from Ian, who says now that the ability to follow specific reporters has been around for a while, converge writers, see how many followers they have or how many other writers have any friendly competition around who has the most and similar to above, any surprises in the list of which topics have the highest follower count. I don't actually know the answer to any of these questions. Helen, I suspect you have more insight into how follow features are going than either Nilai or I. Any update there? Any answers for Ian?

D (10:07)

Okay, I will answer the first part, which is Nilai famously does not give our writers many analytics and therefore I can confirm that we are not pitting our writers against each other and who is the most followed. That being said, but we can start

A (10:20)

other than the giant screen in everyone's house that shows who is the most.

D (10:24)

Yeah, well, I mean as, as Nilay has said, our ambition with the feed is to make it more social over time and so will part of that be counts Go up, you can see what's going on. Maybe never say never, but today it is true that David Pierce does not know whether or not he is the most followed writer at the Verge. And I'm not gonna tell him.

A (10:41)

Sorry David, I really like the idea of doing the sort of Apple style unmarked graphs just showing like Liz lopato went up 200% today and cumulative descriptions,

B (10:52)

they're just always going up.

A (10:54)

It's great.

D (10:55)

So the answer is no, we are not surfacing a leaderboard of most followed authors on topics. I wouldn't say there's huge surprises. AI is by a pretty tidy margin currently our most followed topic. And I think that is what is going on in the tech industry, that's what people are interested in. I think what's interesting though is I looked at number three, four and five, which are actually pretty equivalent in size, and I think it tells a pretty good story to the question earlier about how do people use the Verge to do different jobs? Numbers 3, 4 and 5 are news, gadgets and business. So what are people using the Verge for? It's a great news utility and I think if you look around the industry of tech news, actually not a lot of people are doing tech news anymore. And so there's a lot of people who depend on the Verge to just be the fire hose of breaking tech news, doing a good job of reporting and curating all in one place. Gadgets. A lot of people use the Verge just because they love technology. It's fun. They want like the fun stuff. That's what they're here for. And you have that kind of consumer audience and then you have business. A lot of people use the Verge to be good at their jobs. Something I think Neil I talks about a lot. When we redesigned the website, we didn't think about how many people have the Verge open on their second monitor at work on like a 30 inch desktop. And then we had a bunch of complaints that we had been too mobile forward with our design. And so a lot of people use the Verge for work. So I think you, you know, the topics people follow are about what you would expect. But I think you can really start to see the different jobs the Verge does for people.

B (12:24)

Helen, do you want to have a digression into the future of responsive web design? Because I can do it right now.

D (12:29)

I don't neither.

B (12:31)

All I'll say is this time Will Joel, our senior creative director, when he was designing the new layout, he started with desktop first and interesting. I will give you a hint. I think there's a better way to address people on mobile phones and maybe we'll launch that way soon.

D (12:46)

The last thing I'll call out with follow features is actually people are really using the automated email digests you could get once you set up your follow things. People are opening them at a high rate. It's a new entry point for people to the Verge. So that's been a really great part of that dynamic is people come to the homepage. But also now people are just getting emails of the stuff they want from the Verge and that's how they're navigating

B (13:07)

in one thing, by the way, that I have no idea how to think about. It's true as Helen is saying we're getting a little more social. We're going to integrate with the open social web. The reason I keep saying tweetdeck is because maybe all I actually want the Verge to be ever is a feed of cool gadgets that you can follow. You can see how all that stuff would come together. Social networks have like buttons and I don't know what it means for a media brand to have like buttons on its stories. There's some that do. I think ESPN has them now. They're like, they're, they're out there. People are trying it. I just haven't sat with it enough or thought about it enough. I'm curious for the feedback on it because it, something changes, I think, when you do that.

A (13:45)

So this is a, this is a fairly direct lead to the next question, which comes from, I believe it's Govind who says you've been public proponents of social Internet protocols, especially at Proto. I would, I would quibble with that, but you know, whatever. Neil, I said repeatedly that if the Verge were starting today, it would put up a Blue sky server. Has also teased that more protocol based social and publishing features may be coming to the Verge.com as soon as this year. I would love to know what the team at the versionvox media at large has been up to. What can we expect to see in the coming months and years in the realm of publishing and community engagement over protocols? Neil, I think the question here is essentially what is sort of your current theory of the case about connecting the Verge to these broader OpenSocial protocols?

B (14:27)

Yeah, let me start with why I say if we were starting the Verge today, we'd start a bluesky server. I think all great media brands grow up with their distribution. So the, the Verge is just like a good example. We're like, we started in 2011, we started a giant desktop website and like phones didn't exist in a way that they exist now. Like we, we came up with distribution on the open web and every media player thought that that was going to be the biggest thing in the world and that maybe played out or didn't. YouTubers came up with YouTube, they grew up with the thing that distributed them. And we don't have to do too much media theory, but I think that holds true. So when I say if we were starting a verging end today, what would we do? The thing, the exercise in my brain is what is the distribution that's on the way up that you would build a thing around? And maybe for the last five years the answer has only been YouTube. And then there was like a brief minute when the answer was TikTok. And I just think it's hard to survive on those platforms as we'll come to. I'm confident in this conversation. And so when I say blue sky, I'm like, oh, this is distribution that no one controls. There's no Jack Dorsey or Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg, literally with a knob being like, I don't like you and turning you off, which is a thing that I try to run away from. And so bluesky is like open distribution. Activity Hub is open distribution. And that's why I keep saying that's what we would start. We would start a thing on the open distribution that no one controls and like, try to make our own way.

E (15:57)

We.

B (15:57)

We have because they're. These are all like open protocols. It doesn't mean we can't also just do that now. And, you know, a quick post is a social object, if you think about it that way, can really connect to those protocols directly. Now a problem is that our entire site is built on a cms. You know, a few years ago it was chorus. Now today it's WordPress. And our quick posts are still just WordPress objects. They're not actually like social objects. So we have some work to do to bring them to the next turn so that when someone replies to a quick post on a platform like bluesky, it shows up on our site and then we have a moderation problem. There's like layers and layers of things to solve here. But it just seems obvious that we should connect to the next generation of distribution that no one controls. Because that to me is. That's always the thing a media brand that's on the rise should be trying to do.

A (16:44)

So is your sort of big idea there that ultimately every post on the verge is also a blue sky post that sort of lives both inside and outside of the ecosystem?

B (16:56)

I think, you know, for the way that Helen and I talk about it is, you know, you can get some traffic and that's great. And you can't live or die in traffic. Like the traffic can go away. Like the Yahoo algorithm cannot send you traffic to your links on the Yahoo homepage anymore, which is a real experience that we've had. Google can go away. Like that's just traffic. It just comes and goes and that's great. The goal is to turn the traffic into audience and have people come to you directly and care about your brand and your people, which we are very lucky that anyone is even Listening to this, I don't take that for granted at all. And then the real goal is to turn the audience into a community. And we are very lucky that we have that too, across platforms. And so I just look at these, like, open distribution protocols. I'm like, oh, this is how I can go get a bigger community. Right? We're going to be where you are. And if you reply to us or like our post or engage with us on bluesky or Threads or Mastodon, we'll get some value from that too. And the people who are out on those platforms, we can bring them, we can curate that work in other ways. Like, if I could retweet Kasey once a week, I think that'd be really valuable. And then our audience on our platform would see Kasey's work and they could engage with it directly. And that feels good to me in a way that writing a WordPress post about a Kasey tweet has always felt bad to me. Do you know what I mean? Like, no one wants to do that work. They just want to be like, here's this thing we saw. That's great. And, like, let our audience engage with it. And that's. That feels of service to everyone. So we have a long way to go. I'm not saying we're going to get there tomorrow, but that is the vision is to say our community exists in all these places in a way that is additive instead of constantly dividing our attention.

D (18:30)

Yeah. I can give you the ruthless business answer of why I am interested in

A (18:34)

your theory of the case.

D (18:35)

I'll give you the ruthless business business answer of why I'm interested in open social web projects like Surf from the Flipboard team. So platforms like Metax, they are openly hostile to news content in their algorithms. Right? They have moved away from that. They are no longer great discovery sources for us.

A (18:51)

Links in general, even, forget news, just links.

D (18:54)

They're not like, good places to hang out anymore. We talk a lot about, like, could you start a Verge now the way we started the Verge, or you started the verge 15 years ago? And the answer is like, probably not. Or you would need a lot more money. Because starting something for free and finding audiences for free is much harder. Now. A lot of audience discovery is people buying ads from Mark Zuckerberg. Right? I would rather not give money to Mark Zuckerberg. I would rather spend money on journalists in our newsroom. Which means the discovery problem, like, can we solve it a different way? So if you were to say, like, what are three things that are excited about an open social web for us. We talked about QuickBooks ads on our website. They're objects that run in our feeds. If you could follow those feeds out in the world on whatever like social platform you happen to want to use, and then I could serve you ads there, that would be great for our business. As opposed to we're going to give that those feeds to X for free and then they are going to sell ads and keep all the money. Right. That's just a better business for us. Secondly, to the point of discovery, I would love to acquire acquisition channels for us where again, I don't have to pay to play. Right. So the open social web is a lot more friendly to news. It is not, you know, so I think there's opportunity there for how do you get the next cohort of Verge audience. And then as Nilay said, as we think about our website, our product experience, I think there's really fun ideas about how you create new product experiences that attract people to the Verge because the open social web, you can surface in all kinds of different ways. So that would be my cold business answer of I would rather give our money to the newsroom than be buying acquisition from Meta or whoever.

B (20:39)

Yeah. Like a couple of years from now, I would like it to be obvious that big algorithmic social platforms feel bad and the Verge feels good. But like how. But it has some of the vibes of I'm logging onto a community platform that is full of interesting people who are having real conversations. And again, we had a long way to go. These protocols are not ready for all the things we want to do that. I know we've been talking about this for ages. It is literally some of the stuff needed to get built.

E (21:08)

Right.

B (21:09)

And there's still yet more things that need to get built, but I can see what it looks like. And I would like to make the argument to all of our constituents, to our audience, first and foremost, to our staff, to people we're trying to hire on Helen's side, to the, you know, the advertisers that our site has, all of the vibes and the excitement of a community platform, of a social platform, but none of the bad feelings. And it's going to take a lot. It's going to take us a while to get there. It's not today, but it's, it's where we are trying to go. And if I think we get there, I think we'll be okay.

A (21:41)

I like it.

B (21:41)

All right.

A (21:42)

And just one follow up question from David Pierce at the Verge, which is Helen Square all of this with the Verge is increasingly a subscription business and we're putting more energy into bigger media reporting and we want to make a thing that people log into and pay for. The media industry has done a lot of chasing distribution to its own peril over the years. Why? Why try and do both of these things simultaneously?

D (22:08)

I think if you look at David, like the economic model of the Verge 10 years ago, or any web business, like the old economic model of the open Web is dead. How that economic model worked is Google. And at points in time, Facebook sent a fire hose of traffic to different web pages. People served kind of advertising on those pages. And for a period of time, that scale was so big and that advertising product was like good enough, although people didn't love it, that it was able to support big newsrooms, big businesses. This hasn't just hit the journalism industry. So now the scale is going away. And also what advertisers are interested in and learning about, what performs in the advertising space is changing. And so the reality is, you know, as a purely advertising business, advertising is very cyclical. It's volatile. Verge has a great advertising business that is still most of our revenue. But as we look to the future of where we need to be, we need to have a direct audience relationship. And to some extent, you know, to make good content and enable good journalists to do the work you want, you have to pay. Now that is just the reality of the web. Where our business is more insulated than others is. You know, we weren't just selling on scale, right? We have a real brand, people love being around it. We have a very valuable audience. So the way we sell advertising, the kind of ads we serve that are very premium, that are typically directly sold, you can like only reach the Verge that way. That has insulated us from some of this like big scale collapse problem of the web. But when I look at where does the Verge need to go for this really great journalism to exist? We have come to a point where free advertising, you know, advertising and free experiences on the web just can't support it. So where I would like the Verge to go is that subscriptions, direct reader support more or less subsidizes most of our day to day operations. Um, we should still have an advertising business that is part of how we get scale. But in terms of what should be paid, what should be free, I think, David, that gets into the how do you entice people in, how do you attract your new people? What are people doing with a hypothetical Verge app? If maybe they either can't or aren't ready to pay. I think we should have free experiences that people can access on the Verge. I think that's part of where feeds fit in. Um, and so it is a. It is a tricky inflection point to navigate, which is, you know, people got the Verge for free for a long time. I know it's hard when we're saying, okay, I'm sorry, it's time to pay now. But the web has changed. The business of the web has changed. What advertisers want has changed. Like that old economy is dead. And so it is. We are. We are entering a place where we are now balancing these two things of subscriptions kind of powering the core of the business, and then advertising helping us grow.

A (25:01)

Okay, I just want to say for people counting, that is now either one and a half or two mentions of a Verge app. Just throwing that out there. Our next question comes from Jupiter, and they ask, y' all have mentioned a few times that you have a young audience, and I'm curious about a few things regarding that. When you say young, what do you mean? Are we talking twenties, college age, or even younger? How dramatic is that skew in demographic towards the younger audience? Basically a bunch of questions about who the Verge audience is. Helen, I know you did some work to answer this question. What do you have for us?

D (25:33)

Okay, I have pulled some data on what the Verge looks like this year. So it's very current. The really interesting thing just to say right off the bat, David, is that we pulled website data and we also looked at YouTube and it's actually the same, which I think is fascinating about the demographics of both YouTube and the Verge, where our split on age is identical on our own website as it is on YouTube. Okay. Our biggest readership is ages 25 to 34, people who more or less came out of College about 10 years ago. The next biggest group, millennials, ish. 35 to 44. And then we have about the same amount of readers who are 18 to 24 and 45 to 54, and then much fewer over age of 55. We don't collect data on the website of people 17 and younger, so I can't speak to that. But that does say a lot of our audience is actually pretty young, I think. Why is that the case? I think you can look at several factors. So the tech industry has been booming for a long time, but I think as you look at the move of people into STEM majors to enter what at least until recently was a stable career path in the Technology industry. You can see that that's not the whole story, though. Last time I looked at comScore, I think the Verge's audience skewed about, like, 10 years younger than CNET's. So some of it's also been in our approach to coverage, how we surface content. So, for example, you know, a big part of the Verge newsroom is leaning into individual personalities making videos, videos that reach people on social platforms. We care a lot about design, and so I think within the tech cohort, we've managed to skew younger because we have voicey personalities who access feeds off platform in ways that young users are used to.

A (27:18)

I'm talking about Nili and me, who are both 23 and extremely youthful.

D (27:21)

You're both 23, but the more we clip you, the more ubiquitous you are on TikTok. David. So that's true.

A (27:27)

I will say this. This explains a lot, why the most common piece of information Nilay and I get from people we meet in the world is like, oh, it's so great to meet you. I've been reading the Verge since high school, and Nilai and I both just sort of crumble into dust every time someone says this to us. I love to hear it. And also, I. We are hundreds of years old.

B (27:46)

It's especially bad when it's like a mid-30s person who is now a product manager at Google, and I'm just like,

A (27:52)

well, yeah, I'm like, oh, we covered the thing that you made last week.

B (27:56)

Yeah, exactly.

A (27:57)

And you were a literal child when

B (27:59)

we started doing this. By the way, the secret to this is not, it's not some, like, business juice. It's we just hire cool people. That's the whole secret. I will. You hire cool people and let them have a good time at work. And especially in a creative industry, you're going to attract an audience of people who are looking for cool new things. Yeah, like I said, we don't. We don't do that much analytics in our newsroom. That's the first time I've heard those numbers in ages, too. And our strategy, insofar as we have a strategy, is we hired a bunch of cool people.

D (28:27)

The last thing I'll call out here is I am thinking about how this fits in with our subscription. Something I would love to do is have, like, a super highly discounted counted subscription for students, because I think, you know, to keep the Verge relevant long term, to reach the right people, to bring new people in, we keep reaching young people and, like, training up the next set of Verge supporters And so that is, that is on my wish

B (28:54)

list and I think that's where discounts very important and but also making sure the thing that we make for free is really good is also very important to me and that the new design is actually going to help us get there and like pull the experiences apart. But that's all a swirl in my head is what's the thing that you start checking in college between classes that you also start checking in between meetings at work? We can build something for that that's really good, I think. Yeah.

A (29:23)

All right, let's take a quick break and then we're going to come back and we're going to do a few more money questions before we get into some other stuff. We'll be right back.

C (29:31)

Support for the show comes from Framer. Framer is an enterprise grade no code website builder used by teams at companies like Perplexity and Miro to move faster. With real time collaboration and a robust cms. With everything you need for great SEO, not to mention advanced analytics that include integrated A B testing, your designers and marketers are empowered to build and maximize your.com from day one. So whether you want to launch a new site, test a few landing pages, or migrate your full.com framer has programs for startups, scale ups and large enterprises to make going from idea to live site as easy and fast as possible. Learn how you can get more out of your.com from a framer specialist or get started building for free today@Famer.com Verge for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's Framer.com Verge for 30% off Framer.com Verge rules and restrictions may apply. Support for the show comes from Grammarly. You don't need reminding that the world moves fast, but work today requires clear communication, and when every message counts, sounding rushed or generic can mean getting lost in the shuffle. Grammarly gives you one place to think, write and finish your work where you already write, while giving you access to agents that help you sound natural and engaging no matter what kind of writing you're doing. Grammarly helps you get ideas done faster and move from draft to done with less friction. You can use Grammarly's AI chat to brainstorm ideas, outline a solid draft, then refine it with context aware suggestions that fit what you're working on. See why 90% of professionals say Grammarly has saved them time writing and editing their work? In a world of generic AI, you don't have to sound like everyone else. With Grammarly, you never will. Download Grammarly for free@Grammarly.com that's Grammarly.com foreign support for this show comes from Whatnot. Whether you're selling online or out of a storefront, you already know the challenge. You're simply hoping for people to find your listing or waiting for them to walk in. But Whatnot flips that. They say they're the live shopping marketplace where you can shop, sell, and connect around the things you love. On Whatnot, you go live and sell directly to people in real time. They see what you've got, ask questions, and buy. And they keep coming back. Whether it's beauty, collectibles, electronics, luxury, fashion, and yes, even cookies, Sellers are building real thriving businesses. And for a limited time, Whatnot says they'll match your first $150 sold in the first month. You can visit whatnot.com sell to start selling. That's w h a t n o t.com sell whatnot.com sell.

D (32:56)

All right, we're back.

A (32:57)

Uh, let's play some voicemails that we got. This first one, then. Actually the next couple in a row are just straightforward money questions. So let's talk money. Here we go. Here's the first one.

E (33:09)

Hey guys, this is Gordon from Washington, DC. What have you guys had in terms of perspective about circling around business models that might work, venture capital, etc. But we always end up at advertising. This is true of written content, video content, it seems like now with all the streamers, do we really only have ads? Or how many outlets? How much room is there for organizations like the Verge to build sustainable subscription models? Thanks.

A (33:44)

Do we really only have ads? Is such a perfect question about the Internet. Helen, I'm curious for your take on this.

D (33:50)

First, I think my answer is subscriptions are emerging as one very viable business model, especially for the news business. Often a subscriptions business can be smaller than an ad supported business, but that's not necessarily the case, right? You can have a big subscription supported business. And so I do think subscriptions could be a huge part of the Verge. We have given you all Vergecast listeners ad free experience here on the podcast. If you subscribe to us for, for example. And so we are, as I mentioned earlier, looking at, okay, how do subscriptions become a bigger and bigger part of our business while also saying, you know, advertising should be part of this mix, can be part of this mix. So it's not to say I want to break up with advertising. Advertising can be a really good business. It can be a volatile business. What products advertisers want to buy, what is working. You have to keep experimenting and changing. You can't just set it, forget it. Say, the ads we were selling 10 years ago, we can sell today. But I think the future of the Verge is to have very thriving subscriptions and ad revenue that helps us be a big and great newsroom.

B (34:58)

Yeah, you know, my paranoia the whole time we've been trying to make the Verge is that everything goes away. And so we've always just tried to be as diversified and direct as we can. Right. We want to have lots of different businesses that are coming and going. We want to have lots of different traffic sources that are coming and going. They all go away in the end. But we want to be as direct with our audience as we can. Because if we can keep that alive, like everything else can come and go and we can build along the way. So that's that mix I would actually just challenge. Like, not everything is advertising. It's just Internet stuff tends to advertising. Like, there are no ad supported plumbing companies. I wish there were. You know, someone start one. I will do a decoder with you all day and all night about your ad supported plumbing company. And then even in the context of streaming, not all streaming is the same. It's video streaming, Hollywood streaming is all kind of converging on one model. But Spotify isn't adding ads to its premium tier. Like I, and I think people would frankly revolt if they did. But their free tier is where all their customers come from. And that's a really important dynamic for Spotify. If you ask them, where does the next premium customer come from? Statistically it is out of the free customer pool. And I look at that model and say, oh, there's something there that we can model. Right? Like, we want to build a big free ad supported business that looks like a cool news utility or a cool community thing that you can check that doesn't make you feel horrible. And at some point you're going to see a story and you're going to say, okay, that's worth paying for. And that's all I'm trying to get to is I don't want to fight it out. Click for, click on social media to get subscribers. I want to be like, we're useful the whole time. Again, I'm saying all this. We have a long way to go. We got a lot of stuff to build to do it. I just see the glimmers of like, oh, this is how that kind of business could finally work in a way that, you know, it was hard to even make the case when we would wake up in the morning and, like, Facebook had sent us 5 million visitors, or like Google had sent a flood of traffic. Like, all that's gone now. And so the idea that we have to make a case for a different kind of business is like, one, if you listen to the media, CS come on decoder. They're like, what should we do? Like, you know, and our ability to say, okay, this is a thing we've been thinking about for ages, and it's crisp and it's clear has. Has been a real benefit.

D (37:12)

Yeah. And something about the Spotify model. Spotify makes significantly more money in subscriptions than advertising. But as Nilay is pointing out, that is a big part of their funnel into the paid subscription.

A (37:24)

Helen, one last thing on this, the very last part of this question is essentially about subscription fatigue. We've been at this subscription thing for about a year and a half now, and I think we talked about subscription fatigue and whether it was a problem before we even launched this stuff. What's your sense of sort of people's appetites for Internet subscriptions at this moment in time? Is that a real thing we're fighting as a business?

D (37:47)

I think our subscription is growing at a really healthy clip. I think when I think of subscription fatigue, it's often in the context of there's a bunch of fragmented things that do the same job for you, and now they're all asking you for money. Right. So TV and movie streaming, I think, is a great example of it's kind of a nightmare now to navigate, like, where to watch even a sports game. Right. Like, how many different subscriptions do you need to do that single job? I think where we want the Verge to play and what will insulate us, I hope, a little bit from subscription fatigue, is the Verge is a core utility in which there are not a lot of direct competitors. And a lot of our subscribers, you know, they're here for the utility, but they're also here because they love our journalists and they want to support the journalism. And so, as of right now, I'm not seeing that as a huge immediate problem for us. Now, do we need to do a good job? Do we need to be worth the money? Do I know people's wallets are under more pressure than ever? And so if I can have intro offers that help people get in the door at a cheaper price, I will be trying all of that. But I think we have a slightly different value proposition than someone who's saying, well, I just happen to own these five little pieces of the IP you want. So you'll subscribe for a month and then churn when the show's over.

A (39:01)

Okay. Yeah. I mean, that is a really interesting way to frame actually a lot of the stuff that we've been talking about. Right. That if, like, if. If we are up against a bunch of substacks that you subscribe to and you have to debate between us and that that's actually, we're in trouble.

D (39:16)

Right.

A (39:16)

Like, the Verge has to go be a different thing than that in order to be working.

B (39:21)

Ideally, what we are is a community for people. And I don't mean that in, like, the parasocial creator way, although I would love that. I have a book coming out next year, and so if you could all buy that, that would be great. I mean that in the sense that our audience is a community. Like, we can see it in the comments on our site. We can see it on the comments on our YouTube. We can. We're starting to see it in the comments on our TikTok. Like, these are folks who interact with each other, who have a shared set of values, who are willing to disagree with each other politely. Right. Like, that is very important. And I want the Verge to support that and nurture that. And I think landing great journalism in a community that is excited about it is like a really important flywheel dynamic. But if you're paying us, you should feel like you're part of something, not that we're just selling you links. And I think you can really. We have a lot of big competitors that are effectively selling you links.

D (40:12)

Yeah. I think community is a big part of it. That's a big part of what makes people come back and really engage deeply. I think the other part is, David, what you're also getting at is like, what makes the web bad today, what makes it harder to use and less fun than it used to be. And a big part of that is fragmentation. There's fewer big institutions that have everything in one place. There's fewer social networks that feel good to participate in and have everyone you want in one place. Right. Like, of the good tech journalists, some are still on X, some have decamped to Blue sky, some are on threats. So what is the experience of accessing all of that? I think where the Verge also has an opportunity, as we talked about Federation earlier, is to help solve the fragmentation issue for people and be this great daily utility that helps you navigate all of this in one place and have, you know, all. All of the content and experiences you want to have in one place. So you don't have to go follow five different substacks. Remember, whether the people you like are on threads or blue sky or X, and you just get it all in one place.

A (41:20)

All right, this is. This is a good segue to our next question, which I love all my children equally, but this is my favorite question of all of the ones we have for the show. Let me play it for you.

E (41:28)

Hey, just listen to the podcast. And I love, actually the hype desk thing, but just noticing a trend in you guys trying to monetize more, which I think is fine and fair, but is there. I guess at some point, could you guys just talk about, is there a reason other than money while you're trying to capitalize on some of these things? I mean, money is fine, but, like, are you trying to do more things? Are you guys running out of money? I just. I love you guys, and I don't want you to stop making the podcast, but I also don't want this to become clarity and stuff. So, yeah, I don't know. At some point, if you could just kind of talk through why you've done some things that are more money focused. Thanks. Bye.

A (42:16)

You can see why I love this question.

B (42:17)

That's a good question.

D (42:18)

Great question.

A (42:19)

Yeah. And I think. I think it comes from my favorite place for this question to come from, which is like, I get why you want to make money. Please don't let money ruin this thing that I like, which we think about all the time.

B (42:30)

All the time. And I'll. I'll just start, and then I'll let Helen.

A (42:33)

Sure.

B (42:33)

Take it. Because Helen is the money. She's the business. Yeah, I'm. I'm. We just spend money. That's all we do over here. Um, so here is the problem. And I'll just say it's a problem because we make journalism, and we are very precious and very prickly about the fact that we make journalism. There is money we won't make. It is. And I know it drives the business side of our company crazy that, in particular, there's money I won't make. I won't read the ads. Right. And because of that, we have to try other things because you have to sell what people are buying. And the advertisers have all moved to buying a kind of thing that we won't make because we make journalism. And so I think you're seeing all these new things from my perspective. You're seeing us try all these new things, not because we need to, like, monetize more in, like, a gross, like, endless Growth capitalism way, but because we have to make products that people want to buy, and the one product that people want to buy the most, we will not make. And maybe one day that'll be over and I will read the ads from my yacht, but that day is not today. So that's my perspective on it. I'll let Helen actually answer the question.

D (43:49)

Yeah, I love the premise of this question, which is like, maybe there's so much money right now and we're going and getting so much more money that it's just going to Nilay's yacht. I hate to disabuse you of this notion, but the digital media business, if you look around, is not minting an infinite flow of cash. Look at what's happened to BuzzFeed News. Look at what's happened to Vice. It is a tough business and you should not take for granted that the publications and the people you follow and the things you love continue to exist. This industry is changing really fast and we have to keep changing in order to just pay for these things. You love to pay the journalists to pay for the podcasts. Like, we just have to make enough money to do that. As Neela talks about what is changing in the advertising business, we talked about this a little bit earlier of the kind of like, old school display where you just have tons of scale from Facebook and Google. You throw up a random display ad, it maybe doesn't perform that well and it's running on like a random third party website, but it kind of all works out. That kind of, that kind of model is increasingly going away. The Verge has a big direct brand, which means advertisers want to work with us directly. But advertisers are also yet, to Nilay's point, used to working with creators and platforms now, and they're looking for integrations. They're looking for people to try their products. They're looking for better ad products that are more relevant to audiences and perform better because they're inventing better ad products out on TikTok, right? You get a bunch of people to endorse your product, maybe disclosing it, maybe not. That performs really well. And so our challenge is how do we tap, how do we satisfy our customers on the advertising side while also protecting the firewall of the journalism? And so hypedesk came from that point where we were saying, okay, if Nilay and David can't go try the new product and tell you it's great without compromising the newsroom, then how can we do that in a fun way? Where we have the really fun ad product that performs better, that is better to listen to or watch for vergecast listeners or YouTube viewers or whoever. And so we tried this hype test thing, which is to say, okay, we've got former journalists who are in the commercial space now. They're really fun, they're experts, but they can take the money and play with the product and make a good ad product that performs well while also protecting our newsroom. And so hypedesk is one of our experiments in inventing new ad formats we've talked about. Quick post ads is another place we are trying to invent ad products that perform better. And so the reality is we need to keep improving the ad products we make as that industry changes, as the opportunity changes. And yeah, that's, yeah, I, I wish we were buying Nili yachts every year.

A (46:40)

So does Neil. We are not tell you for sure. Nilai wishes that.

B (46:43)

I've been working on that boat for 15 years, you guys, it's a, it's a paddle boat right now, but we have, we have ideas.

A (46:49)

You just, you're just gonna slowly build your paddle boat into a yacht? Is that the idea here? Just one Lego piece at a time.

B (46:56)

And at the bottom is still me just battling away.

A (46:59)

Helen, this, this is probably a useful moment to update on the episode we did 18 months ago and basically just answer the question, how does the Verge make money? And you can answer that as broadly or specifically as you would like to, but I think this is, we get versions of this question a lot, so we might as well just answer the how does the Verge make money? Question.

D (47:17)

The Verge makes most of our money in advertising today. We have a growing subscription business that is a increasingly a significant revenue line for us. But subscription businesses take a long time to build. And so the inflection point at which subscription will overtake advertising is still some ways away. So we are primarily an advertising business.

A (47:38)

Is that like display advertising on posts on our website?

D (47:41)

Increasingly our ad mix. And this was kind of always the case there. So if we're going to get really nerdy about display advertising, let's do it. Even if you look at display advertising, there's two kinds of ways you can get to display advertising. There's stuff you sell directly and there's programmatic. Programmatic is like you let Google serve whatever. There's a bidding marketplace. Things show up across any website that is a lower, that pays out at lower rates.

A (48:08)

But that was the Google promise, right? Like, if you, if you rewind to like 12 years ago, it was. There's going to be so much traffic that at. Even at tiny bits per page view, you can make it up in giant scale. And that's the scale everybody chased for a decade that has essentially mostly disappeared.

D (48:23)

That was the Google Ads business that propped up, like SEO firms, right? The Verge's display ad business has always been more skewed towards big direct buys. So an advertiser knows that they need to be on the Verge because that is where their client base is, their customer base. So they are working with Vox Media directly in order to access the Verge and do premium things. Vox Media has a whole other side of the company where we make ad tech. We make, like, fancier, nicer, better performing banner ads that aren't this programmatic fill. And so that has been a strength of our business and continues to be a strength for our business. But if you look at what kinds of things advertisers are buying, I would say writ large. People are buying fewer things that are like a homepage takeover, and they're buying more things that are, like, integrated into a hype desk on the Vergecast or quick post ads or branded content or, you know, events we do together. And so you see the kind of kinds of advertising mix writ large, like moving off display into more integrated deals.

B (49:31)

I can't believe it's. I have to do this because we never have to do this disclosure, but I have to do it. Our business, Vox Media, is suing Google for antitrust violations because we ran that ad tech business and Google was found guilty of being an ad tech monopoly. There's your disclosure. I never think about it.

A (49:49)

That might be the first time we've ever had to do that on the show.

B (49:51)

It never comes up, but there it is.

A (49:54)

It's pretty good. Disclosure is our brand. All right, I think we have one more sort of business slash editorial question before. Helen, we're going to boot you out of here, and Neil and I are going to do some other stuff. Um, and this is specifically about podcasts and audio and video. Uh, you'll. You'll see why this is a good transition for a bunch of stuff. Here, let me. Let me just play this for you.

E (50:16)

I love your audio podcast. I love audio podcasts in general. I don't think they're as talkative about it, but most of the folks I know prefer it in the audio format. It's the space for us that's just kind of necessary. And you can pop in a headphone, listen to it at work. If you're working in a warehouse for road trips. It fills a slot that I think probably radio filled for the older generations. And I mean, I don't think everything has to be video. I'm sure there's ways to monetize it that you can't do with audio clips, but there's just something special about it and it's important. Not everything needs to be washed.

A (50:58)

Basically. I think this is very much sort of equally an editorial and a. And a business question. But I do think we've gotten a lot of versions of the question of this question about, like, how do podcasts make money? Is the recent push to video fundamentally a push about how to make more money from podcasts? And Helen, I'm curious on your perspective on this first. And then Neil and I are going to get deep in the weeds about our feelings about how to make video podcasts. But I want to know your thoughts on sort of how you're looking at podcast as a business and especially how video changes or adds to or subtracts from that.

D (51:33)

Yeah, so I will say, personally, I prefer audio podcasts too. They fit better into my life. That's how I like to listen to things. And an audio podcast, I think there is something very intimate about the form of listening to someone, which also means the kinds of advertising you serve in an audio podcast are pretty high performing. And so that kind of advertising of a big loyal audience who trusts the feedback, who's highly engaged, it's really integrated into your daily life. That is a really good business and that is currently the core of the podcast business, is more of the revenue today is in audio. Now, what does audio not do very well? No one has really cracked discovery of new listeners in audio in a really compelling way. I think we've done a good job of, you know, when we launched version history, it started in this show. We worked really hard to bring people over to a new feed, and that's been successful. Um, but no one solved the podcast discovery problem. And it is true that while the audio listeners have the thing they want and love, there is a new kind of listener that is, you know, consuming podcasts as video products. If you look at YouTube is now the biggest podcast player in the world, there is a lot of new people who like listening to or watching podcasts in a new form. And so to reach those people, we have to have video versions of our podcasts and good products that work on those platforms. So I would say it is more about accessing new audience, bringing new people into our shows, and getting them familiar with our talent. The monetization is frankly not there yet on the video side. So it is more about future opportunity, getting new people in on the shows than it is about, you know, an immediate like swarm video. It's where all the money is. I do think it is where the opportunity to reach new people is. The opportunity to grow scale is because it is hard to grow audio only feeds because I think because it is such an intimate, powerful form and it's so personal how you listen to the people you care about.

A (53:33)

Another version of this question we got from Angel, I believe it is, is was asking essentially about this in the context of even companies like Netflix getting into podcasts and getting into advertising. Like at some point. I think the, the assumption from a lot of these players is that podcasts are a relatively inexpensive way to make lots and lots and lots of content that you can sell ads against. Right. Like is. Is if you just sort of look at the pivot to podcasts in general. Is it as simple as that? Like it's pretty cheap to make most podcasts compared to like even a sort of Stephen Colbert sized late night television show. You just put mics on a table and people are comfortable with that and you can sell ads against it. Like is that, do you see that happening broadly here?

D (54:20)

I mean, I think what's old is new. It's. It is not just about the money. It is also about the users and what users want to do. Right. You look at what is winning on YouTube right now, it's like YouTube's either going super long or it's going super short. Like the day, the heydays of like mid form on YouTube, not just for news organizations, but you look at the creators and how they're doing it is like videos are either getting really long or they're getting really short. The distinction between a podcast and a video show is becoming almost meaningless. Everything is just a show now. And so David, you're right that I think some of it is okay here is content that is engaging and we want to play there and that should be part of our business. It's also just what do the users want? And I think increasingly if things are overproduced, you're seeing like a new aesthetic of what podcasts work on YouTube, which is actually like they are not overproduced. They feel like they are filmed in someone's garage.

A (55:14)

Yeah.

D (55:15)

And that actually I think is part of the audience connection is like a more casual, authentic aesthetic on these long video shows. So I think it's both about what are the users doing and where is the money going to go. The money follows the users.

A (55:31)

Yeah, that makes sense. All right, we have actually, Nilay, I have, I have more video questions for you, but let's get to those in a minute. Let's take one more break. Helen, we're going to release you back to go, you know, do more things to make us money, which is go make money. Yeah, go make us money.

D (55:45)

Thank you so much for having me. I obviously love the Verge, I guess. David, I will ask myself the question, how can the listeners of this podcast most support the Verge if we are not going to take our continued existence for granted?

A (56:00)

This is actually a question we get a lot from people who are like, am I costing you money by listening to the ad free version? If I want to help the Verge in the most ways that I can, what can I do? First of all, know that we love you, everyone who asked this question. And also, Helen, this is a good question. What is the answer?

D (56:16)

The single most important way you can support us is to pay and subscribe to the Verge. I know that is not possible for everyone. Other ways you can support us, you can use the Verge a lot. Listen to our products, love our products. If you are paying to subscribe, you are allowed to listen to the ad free podcast feed. We love you.

B (56:34)

That's cool. The thing that we sell you, you can use.

A (56:37)

It's allowed.

D (56:38)

Yes, yes, I give you moral permission to use the ad free podcasts that are part of your subscriber.

A (56:43)

This is a real thing though. Like we used to get people who would ask if they should feel bad watching the podcast on YouTube when with YouTube Premium, when it wasn't showing ads like, should I be listening? Yeah, like, but I'll give you spend time with us. That's the thing.

D (56:55)

I'll give you two more things you can do to support the Verge. One is, you know, we've talked a lot about, on, on this episode, about discovery, how you find new people. So I don't know, share the Verge, tell people you love it. Share the content you love from here. Bring new people into the Verge. That is a really fantastic way to support us. And then as Neil, I said, you know, when we did the new homepage design, we're talking to people directly about what they want to see from us. So give us your feedback. What do you want to hear from us? What do you want to see from us? What's working, what's not. We actually pay a lot of attention to direct feedback from all of you. So subscribe to the Verge if you can't subscribe to the Verge. It is okay, but tell your friends, send us your feedback. Love it.

A (57:36)

All right, Helen, thank you. We're going to take a break and then Nilay, I got some more stuff for you. We'll be right back.

C (57:44)

Support for the show comes from MongoDB. If you're tired of database limitations and architectures that break when you scale, it's time to think outside of rows and columns. Because, let's be honest, you didn't get into tech to babysit a broken database. You got into it to actually build something. MongoDB lets you do that. It's flexible developer first asset compliant enterprise ready and built for the AI era. Say goodbye to bottlenecks and legacy code. Start innovating with MongoDB. There's a reason it's trusted by so many of the Fortune 500, and that's because it's a platform built by developers for developers. MongoDB. It's a great freaking database. Start building@mongodb.com Build support for the show comes from LinkedIn. If you're a small business owner, you know that every hire counts. But time and resources are limited. Finding, connecting with and screening the right candidates takes up valuable time you could be giving to your customers. That's where LinkedIn Hiring Pro comes in. It's built to be your hiring partner, helping you find the right candidates faster. That way you can hire with confidence without turning it into another full time job. Hiring Pro streamlines the entire process, from drafting your job to shortlisting candidates and conducting AI powered interviews for initial screenings. Its updated conversational interface lets you describe what you need in plain language. Nearly 60% of hirers find a candidate to interview within a week. With Hiring Pro, you spend less time searching and more time connecting with the right talent. And instead of getting buried in resumes, you get a focused shortlist that actually moves your hiring forward. Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire get started by posting your job for free@LinkedIn.com track. Terms and conditions apply.

D (59:51)

Honest to God, like skinny, I want to be jacked without context. Tone and sculpt are rooted in diet culture. We're inheriting a lot of nonsense that makes specifically women feel like they have to shrink in order to expand. And I'm just saying no, let's just like lift heavy and like take up space. That's the expansion. I'm Reben Arson and this week on Project Swagger, I break down the strategies that helped me build confidence and feel at home in my Body, especially after two babies. Listen now at Project Swagger, wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we're back.

A (60:33)

So, Neil, I. While we're on the subject of video, I have a voicemail I want to play you that I think is representative of a question you and I have both been getting for a very long time. So let's hear that.

E (60:45)

Hey there, David and the Vergecast team, long time listener here, and I'm calling from Austria, Europe, and asking regarding the whole, yeah, Verge episode about what's happening regarding Verge and the history of the Verge and stuff like this. And to be honest, I wanted to know back in the day that was on the Verge, like with the old Verge crew, and this was a little bit more produced, will that ever be coming back? Such a highly produced YouTube show, basically. And yeah, would be nice, I think, getting something like this back now that everything is moving back to video again. And yeah, love the show. Love to be a subscriber and supporting what you do. And keep up the good work. Thank you. Bye.

A (61:43)

Okay, I both want you to answer this specific question directly about on the Verge, which is a show a lot of people liked and have feelings about. But also there is a sort of style of old Verge video that we get asked about a lot that we just don't do as much anymore, and people consistently want to know why not? Are we going to. Are we going to bring that back? What happens to kind of that era of early Verge video? Curious your thoughts?

B (62:11)

One, we should definitely bring Josh back to host a talk show. He was. He was very good at it.

A (62:16)

He was really good at it.

B (62:18)

It was very fun to make that show. That show was both possible because all of us were young and most of us didn't have children. And so we ran the whole website and then also produced the show underneath it, and no one slept. And the nights after on the Verge, when we would all go to. We always went to the same French restaurant and we would just like sit and drink and shoot the shit. Some of the most fun maybe in the entire history of the Verge that anyone has ever had. I think we're all older now and none of us can do that. And this is all leading me up to, say, the cost structure of making that video in a time when there isn't just venture capital money sloshing around digital media to subsidize everything, when YouTube had signed a deal with Vox Media back then to subsidize a bunch of video, all that stuff is expensive to make. That's all I'm Getting at. You have to hire really talented people. You, you're basically doing tiny little documentary productions. Even for things like fancy review videos, we just had a lot of people working on them all the time. And I, you know, not to just keep harping on this. The monetization of the video platforms in general has moved to direct brand integrations. So unless we are going to be a little ad agency and make the ads for the brands and then give the brands approval over the videos, that I don't think there's a way to make the money at the scale to support that work. We're trying to invent some stuff. This is why Helen is talking about HYPSESK. We're trying to go address that market and get those dollars and maybe it'll work and maybe it won't. I hope it does. But I look at the creator landscape and it's only the big players that can afford to do that work because they're doing massive brand deals. And like, I just keep saying there's just money we won't make.

A (64:06)

Right. And I actually think like that may be the most direct version of that thing. Right. Like to do the kind of stuff we want to do. And I think outside of all of this stuff, like you and I both share the ambition to do that kind of stuff. I loved that stuff. I loved making it.

B (64:22)

It was really fun.

A (64:23)

I loved watching it. There is really only one way to make money from that on the Internet and is to do the kind of brand deals we're not willing to do.

B (64:32)

Yeah. I mean, I, I, I, Yeah. That's as blunt. I tried not to just say, I

A (64:37)

mean, it's just true.

B (64:38)

But because again, I, and I just want to, I try not to say it as bluntly as that. I know it's true.

A (64:43)

It's not to say there aren't other possible ways, but as it stands right now, it feels like the only way.

B (64:49)

Yeah. You can't do it. And I, I just never trying to throw shade at the creators. Like, we're friends with a lot of them. I think they all do a lot of really good work. There's a thing that they do that we won't do. That's fine. It's, it's so, so hard to run that business. Yeah. I have nothing but sympathy for those folks because I know how hard it is. Yeah.

A (65:08)

I don't begrudge anybody their work there. Yeah.

B (65:11)

And that's just a compromise we're not willing to make because of the kind of product we make and ethics policy and all this other stuff and, like, more power to them. Go figure it out. But I don't think you can support that work on the platforms as they are constructed today without compromising our ethics policy. And that is the bad. Like, I. I think that's bad.

A (65:30)

I think.

B (65:30)

I don't think that's the creator economy's fault. I think that is the platform's fault.

A (65:33)

Yep.

B (65:34)

We come at it sideways a lot. But I'll just say it clearly, like, it is criminal that YouTube cannot pay high enough rates to support actual journalism that does not have integrated brand deals. And something is wrong there. It's criminal for TikTok and Instagram, too, but they know that there's an army of teenagers who will work for free, and they don't have to do it because if you get mad and leave, you will be replaced. And that's, you know, the whole thing where, you know, the whole conversation we had with Helen about wanting to be diversified and direct, like, that is the thing that I'm always the most paranoid about. I do not want to be tied to distribution that can. That has that much leverage over me, and especially because we cover these companies. But anyway, that's the story. Like, we were flush with VC cash and dumb advertising money. Like, the brands that were showing up at that time all had these things called experimental budgets because they didn't know how to advertise on the Internet. And they're like, Ford showed up and was like, josh, you can give away a car. That was a real thing that happened on the verge. Those experimental budgets are long gone. Everything is tracked to an inch of performance. It's just not how it's going anymore. I hope maybe those days will come back. In the meantime, I think it is better for us to make sustainable journalism.

A (66:45)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, again, it is important to say we loved doing that thing.

B (66:49)

It was so much fun.

A (66:50)

It was so fun. And I. I would.

E (66:52)

We.

A (66:52)

We continue to look for every available opportunity to do it, even when it is not the most financially sound decision we've ever made. And I think, like, the. We. We did a thing last summer with. With Will Poor where they did this big journey on the. The Hydrogen highway in California that was, like, big and expensive, and we had to get really creative about where we put it and all the stuff that we made. And, like, my. My hope is to continue to do more of that stuff and find ways to do big, expensive, weird things.

B (67:24)

But that's all related to, like, why are you trying to monetize so much stuff? You need something that throws off a lot of cash that is, like, very profitable, so you can do the things that are not quite so profitable. It's like, you know, the Hollywood actors are like, one for the studios and one for me. Like, that's.

E (67:38)

We.

B (67:39)

We need that dynamic across our newsroom, and hopefully we'll get back there.

A (67:42)

Totally. All right. Actually, on that front, we got a question about some Verge alumni. So let me play that for you.

E (67:49)

Hey, my name is Stefan. I'm calling about the upcoming episode about the Vergecast. So it sounds like, through listening to you guys for a very long time, that you guys have a pretty good relationship with your alumni. A lot of them, you're proud of them when they move on to do other things. But the Vergecast is different in that people are in your ear and they become, I don't know, they feel like friends, and then they leave, and it's weird and it feels bad, and then you don't know what happens to them. Can you or will you ever talk about how your relationships with alumni are? What are they doing? You know, I don't want to know what happened. I'm sure you guys don't talk about that, but, like, Alex, Paul, Dieter, what's it like? Do you talk to them? Are they happy? Is it good? I don't know. I just want to know about how these people are doing that, you know, used to be in my ear every week, and I miss them. Anyways, thanks. Bye.

A (68:48)

This question made me so happy.

B (68:50)

Sweet. I talked to Dieter for a while last night, actually.

C (68:52)

Did you?

B (68:53)

Yeah, we, Dieter and I, you know, Dieter works at Google. We do not talk about work. And that took us a while to figure because we only talked about work for a long time. We had to learn how to not talk about work. Yeah, we just chatted about family. It was great. Dieter's great. He's very available on the Internet.

A (69:14)

You can find Dieter.

B (69:15)

Ask him on Android. He'll be fine. Alex is, I think, writing for Giz. Paul, as Paul's want to do, left the Internet. The last time I saw Paul was on the street of Austin, Texas, at South by Southwest. Gave him a big hug. I hope all these people are happy. I am very proud of our alumni. I think, as you all know. You know, it's. I always make the Hotel California joke. Like, you can check out, you can never leave. We don't even call them alumni. We call them expats. Like, they come back, they're on our shows. Maybe. Maybe we don't promote them as much but, like, they participate. We love to support their work out in the world, but not everyone can work at every job forever. You know, I'll use Casey Newton as example. Platformer is amazing. Like, he has built a good business that does meaningful coverage for the community he serves. He's, you know, hard fork has built. Been built into a new kind of thing that I think is really important. We were probably just a cap on Casey's ambition when. When he had all those ideas. And I don't ever want to be a cap on anybody's ambition. So I'm. I'm happy that case, like, and it's better. It's better to not be Casey's boss is what I will say. It's much more fun to just be Kasey's friend. So, like, that's how I see it. It's like, we should give people room to have the biggest ideas they can. The Verge is a pretty creative place. Like, there's a lot of creative freedom here. And then when they reach the limit, when they feel like we are getting in their way, all we should do is support them on whatever thing they do next.

A (70:39)

Yeah, I mean, I think from the very beginning, it was like a Verge policy to, like, be happy for people who leave the Verge to go do other cool things. We have occasionally tried to talk people out of leaving to go do less cool things. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But I think in general, like, my. I mean, as someone who left and came back, right, like, my ongoing career advice to most people is, like, everybody should have lots of jobs. And with that comes, like, don't. Don't hold on to anything too tightly. And on the flip side, like, don't hold on to anyone too tightly. Right? Like, there are seasons it makes sense, and seasons it doesn't. And I think the fact that, like, there are a hundred people who used to work here that I can just call and be like, hey, come on, the Vergecast, and talk to me about this thing. And they're, like, psyched to come back. Like, I think about the. Sean o' Cain came on the first season of Version History. He was like the first non staffer we had on version history. Sean O' Cain, I hired as an intern 400 years ago because he loved his Pebble Watch. Like, that was the thing that got Sean the job. And he's gone on to great stuff. He's now at TechCrunch doing really interesting, important reporting. And he came back and had this cool moment being back in the office, and then left and went back to his job at TechCrunch. And I was like, this is awesome. It's great that we all get to be friends like this. This industry is so. Yeah, there's only 50 of us. There's like. There's just. There's just not that many people who do this. And we all know each other, and it is, like, more fun that we're all friends. And I think people generally don't realize how fun it is that we're all friends.

B (72:06)

I can't say this enough. I do not aspire to be everyone's boss forever. If I could be no one's boss, I think I would be happiest. Yes, there. There are people that you probably miss. We are. We can only be so big.

E (72:19)

Right.

B (72:19)

We can only have so many people. We can only pay so many people. Some people, like, when they graduate and they move on, that makes space for other new people. And it's funny. People make the list of folks and it's like, it always starts with Dieter and Becca, and it's like, well, those. They overlapped, but also they spent quite a lot of time. Like, when Dieter left, there was space for Becca to fill on our channel. Right. And like, that's important. And, you know, Becca's got her channel now. She's doing great. She's taking tech outside. That's a tagline. I love watching our camera videos. They're great.

A (72:51)

Her stuff's great. Yeah.

B (72:52)

So I just. I hope people see that dynamic too. Like, we try to make space for. For our new folks because that's also important, that we are a place where people develop into the kind of personalities and develop the kinds of audience that let them go do whatever next thing they want to do.

A (73:06)

Totally. All right, we have a few more here that we're just gonna. We're gonna burn through them fast. We have to do a Brendan Carr question. So here's our Brendan Carr question.

E (73:16)

Hi, my name is Chris. I'm calling from an ikea. I'm hoping you can't hear the background music too loud. I wanted to ask, why is the segment called Brendan Carr as a Dummy? I know you have talked about. You chose the word dummy very specifically, but I'd love to hear you justify it because there are many other words I can imagine using, and that seems like a pretty innocuous one to land on ultimately. Yeah. Let me know what you think. Thanks.

A (73:37)

He's such a dummy.

B (73:38)

Nilay, I have a lot of thoughts about this.

A (73:40)

Why is he a dummy?

B (73:41)

Well, he is a dummy. I Think it is important not to let bad actors feel like they have outsmarted everyone. And Brendan thinks he is very smart. And if you listen to the segment America's Favorite Podcast, in the podcast, you will understand that actually he is quite stupid. And I just think there's something defanging and important about calling stupid people stupid. That's it. That's the whole thing.

A (74:06)

So you think, like, giving him some sort of more malicious nickname almost gives him too much credit?

B (74:12)

Yeah, he's an idiot.

A (74:14)

Yeah.

B (74:14)

Like, Brandon Carr is an evil genius is not actually the. The vibe. Brandon Carr has once again stumbled into a First Amendment disaster is more the vibe.

A (74:22)

Yeah. Okay.

D (74:22)

I buy it.

B (74:23)

I. Look, we get this feedback a lot, but the. The reason it's a dummy is so that he understands that I think he's stupid.

A (74:29)

Yeah.

D (74:30)

Yep.

A (74:31)

Okay, next question. This comes from Rufo. Uh, the question is, how many jackets does Nei have? And does he ever get hot wearing them?

B (74:38)

While recording, I went to the experts for this one.

A (74:40)

David.

B (74:41)

Hey, Beck, how many jackets do you think I had?

D (74:44)

Um, about 137, but only three look different than the others.

B (74:50)

It's brutal. It's brutal.

A (74:53)

So 137, but also four.

B (74:57)

Becky is like, you know, like a. Like a cleaner. You know, she's like, throw this stuff away. We. So we have effectively three closets in our house, right? There's, like, our closet, then there's the. Like, the front closet, and there's like, a back coat zone, and all of them are just full of black jackets. And she's like, what are these? Like, get rid of them. And then I look at them like, but these are all slightly different denim jackets. And she's like, no, they're not. And we probably had that conversation. Yeah. Like, I'm just lucky she didn't make a video where she just toured the closets full of identical jackets. My. My look. My argument is I'm on camera all the time, and I need to be wearing different clothes, but only that's all I got.

A (75:35)

Very slightly different.

B (75:36)

This is why I got shamed into wearing this jacket on this show, because I went and recorded that with her, and I was like, crap.

A (75:42)

Love it. All right, two more, and then we're gonna get out of here. Here is one about social media, which is just a. You know, we're gonna do this really fast. It's gonna be great. Here we go.

E (75:52)

Hi, Verge. Cats friends, this is Cody from Oklahoma. I went to school for journalism, but I'm kind of curious what it's like now in 2026, because I have actually never worked in it. When you're using social media as members of the show, do you feel a need to, like, not block people? How do you handle social media as content creators in 2026?

A (76:18)

Like I said, super small picture question. Not a lot of things to feel

B (76:22)

like 90 minutes in.

A (76:24)

I do think the question of how this is a thing you and I talk about a lot. So I'm. I'm curious how you're thinking about it right now, which is, what do you feel like you are sort of required to be on social media as a journalist in 2026? Which I think is what this person is asking, not how do you use it, but, like, who are. Who do you have to be on these platforms?

B (76:44)

Yeah, I don't know. And it's actually not to continually talk about the book that I am putting out next year, but how to get

A (76:51)

what yout Want by Neelai Patel. Tell people the name, man. Come on.

B (76:54)

I'm trying not to make it too. We got to save all the promo juice when there's actually something you can buy the pre orders, even live.

E (77:01)

David.

B (77:01)

But we've announced the book. It's a book about. It's just decoder stuff. It'll be fun. You know, when you go to sell a book, they look at your social following. It's like almost like a formula. Like, if you have enough Twitter followers, you can get a book deal. That's a thing you can do. And I like, you know, I showed up and, like, I had this, like, pitch about, I've talked to all these CEOs, and I think there's a lot to learn about structure and blah, blah, blah. And they're like, how many Twitter. It was just like one of those things that you put in the proposal. It's like, oh, this is a business plan. This isn't just a book proposal. And part of the business plan is how big is your social following so that you can distribute to an audience of people that might want to actually see this book. And I totally understand it, and it is totally rational. And it's also like, oh, boy, these platforms are marketing platforms. That's what they are. That's how everybody perceives them, except for the handful of us that came up with them a different way. So I'm maybe just in the middle of a full existential crisis about that. I also think it is important to play the games the platforms are designed to make you play, right? Like being stubbornly anti algorithmic media when you're Trying to grow an Instagram following is just, you're just going to waste your time. So I'm trying to find the balance in between all of these things. I also think it's important that we reach our audiences there and like, tell them about the Verge and like, that it's a good product that they should try. I don't know, where are you at?

A (78:19)

I've had a slightly different run, which is that I almost entirely stopped sort of actively posting on social media for a while. And like, I was still around. I read tweets, I looked at threads, whatever, but like, I didn't post very much for a long time. Cause it just felt bad and it was like, I'm just not having a good time here. I, I will keep looking for, you know, reporting reasons to make sure I sort of understand what's going on, but have tried to engage more recently and have mostly enjoyed it, I would say. But I think one thing I do feel very responsible for is like, you and I always joke that we are the customer service line for the Verge. And that's actually a thing I take really seriously and is a thing we do on social a lot. Is like, I think the Verge is a big brand that is fundamentally just like a bunch of doofuses in Slack trying to make things together. And I think it's matters to me to be real people representing this thing that like, everyone should remember that we are just like a bunch of people trying our hardest. And, and that is that, that is what we do all day. And so I think I spend a lot of time, like answering people's tweets about why a webpage is broken. And I think, like, to me, that's actually the great use of social media is to just sort of respond to people as they engage with the stuff that I and we make. And email is one version of that that works. And I get a lot of emails and I try to respond to as many of them as I can. I have been worse at email recently as I've gotten better at social media recently. But like being out there and engaging both sort of as me and also like on behalf of this bigger thing that we make, I think is very important and broadly very useful. I will say I do not at all feel bad blocking people. Like, if you, if you are an ass on the Internet, you do not get to engage with me. And I think, like, I, I, I spend a lot of time both as a reporter and just as a person. Like, I will engage with almost anyone who is operating in good Faith about almost anything. You, you can say the cruelest, most cutting thing to me. And if you are earnest and in good faith, I will take you seriously. And if you are just in bad faith, I don't have time for you and neither should anybody else.

B (80:30)

You've done a very good job of curating that audience. I will actually, I will reveal to the listeners that our first little federation experiment is going to be to federate David's. Oh yeah, that's quick post feed. And we're going to like work on that and figure that out. And one of the reasons we're like, it should just start with David, like a very controlled experiment. And it's because David's audience is well behaved. Like that will just be a group of happy people who are like, look at this fun experiment as opposed to like, like me, which is like, let's fight. And that's just like a very different vibe.

A (81:02)

I do think you are, you are slightly easier to trigger to saying cutting things on the Internet than I am. And it has probably served me well over time.

B (81:11)

I like to fight and it's a real problem and I'm working on it.

A (81:14)

I don't, I have just fully leaned into like kill them with kindness or block them and move on. Right. Like, those are, those are the only two moves that I have found that make me feel good. And that's it. And I will, I will keep doing that. And everyone, no one should feel one second of guilt blocking someone on the Internet. You just shouldn't like.

B (81:30)

No, I, I, I don't either. Yeah, but I'm, I'm much more open to what, let's disagree more loudly. You know, you can just see I'm working on it, everybody.

A (81:41)

It's good. I like this for you. All right, we have one last question and this is specifically designed to make you, Neal I. Patel both think very hard and feel very old. Here we go.

E (81:52)

Hi, I'm Jonathan and I'm a huge fan of the show. And I heard that you are doing the Vergecast questions. And here's a question for Nilay. So Nilay, you been gadget blogging since the beginning of gadget blogging. How do you think both the gadgets and how we write and talk about those gadgets has changed over the years? Thanks so much, Neel.

A (82:24)

I just crumbled into dust, everyone.

B (82:26)

Well, thank you. I appreciate, I love it. I'm trying not to die as your local Gandalf. That's a really good question. I actually really appreciate that question. I won't Overdo it. But here's my grand unified theory of gadgets. Before the iPhone, the whole industry was chasing this concept called convergence, where you would just make everything a computer. And Bill Gates would show up at CES every year and talk. Every year he would talk about putting a PC in your living room. Because the holy grail of convergence was making your TV a computer, in particular a Windows computer. And that's like why the Xbox exists. And like you just saw everyone was trying to make everything into a computer and it didn't quite work. And so you just had this like huge ecosystem explosion of gadgets because everything needed to do a different job. And the idea of convergence was that you could get one thing to do every job. And seriously, the industry just chased the stream for ages upon ages upon ages. But before the phone, it never worked. Like, Bill Gates was never successful at putting a PC under your tv. They are trying to this day and they can't get it done. And so there was just this like massive explosion of gadgets. And then the iPhone came out and then everything became an app and then everything became software. And the idea that you needed a different piece of hardware to do a different job just utterly fell by the wayside. And everything became a little accessory to an iPhone. And that is like coming and going, right? Like it comes and goes. And I'm always like, gadgets are back and like sometimes they are, and then everything turns into iPhone apps again. And a big consumer base is in apps. And so all of the people with all the ideas about how to solve one little problem that 15 years ago would have been a gadget are now making apps and often subscription apps. And you just see like, oh, that's not as much fun as it used to be. I do think there are interesting gadgets. I think, like, I think a couple weeks ago I mentioned that we bought my daughter a Cricut cutting machine for her birthday. Like, that is the most fun gadget we've bought in ages in this house. And she, we have made so many stickers. Do not buy a cricut for your 8 year old daughter unless you are ready for just thousands upon thousands of stickers to be manufactured in your kitchen. But you know that stuff exists. It's just not the way it was before. And now because these companies have all gotten so big and so powerful, it's impossible to just talk about gadgets without also talking about money and power and politics and. And I understand why that is really tiresome for a lot of people. But it is also true that you cannot talk about the next iPhone without talking about the price of ram, which means you're talking about war, which means you're talking about terrorists. And it's. I think we try to draw the line, but that is the big new change, at least from my perspective, is these companies used to be small. They were not the most powerful companies in the world. Not everything was converged into smartphones. And so the way we talked about it was a lot lighter. It was enthusiasts doing enthusiast stuff. I sent David, like, a 1988 copy of Macworld the other day, like a PDF of an old Macworld the other day. And you look at the ads of that issue of Macworld, and it's like carrying cases, disk drives, optical disk drives, carrying cases for your disk drives. Like, everything around a computer was a piece of hardware or an accessory, or like none of it had, like, landed in this perfect form factor of the smartphone. I would love to get some of that ecosystem back. I suspect we won't get it back, but finding the things that are small and interesting and fun, that's like. I think that's what everyone is missing. I think that it's kind of like you're. I. It sounds like you're very young. Like, it sounds like you're curious about that vibe, and it. In a way that, like, being curious about the past is, like, really fun. Finding the next version of that, I think, is. It's on my mind. That's why I want to feed the gadgets, you know, because I. I understand what that felt like, and I miss it, too.

A (86:33)

Yeah, I agree.

D (86:34)

All right.

A (86:34)

I think that's a perfect place to end. Nilay, thank you for. For hanging out. Thank you to everybody who sent us questions. As always, if you have more questions about the Verge and the Verge cast and how we make money, send them along. We'll do some of them on the show. We can just answer them. However, we can come at me on social media, but only in a nice way. Otherwise I'll block you and I won't feel bad about it at all. Nilai, thanks for doing this with me. This is really fun.

B (86:56)

That was really fun. Helen was great. We should just let Helen host the show.

A (86:59)

That's. Honestly. That'd be great. I'm into it. All right. Thanks, buddy. All right, that's it for the show. Thank you to Nilai and Helen for doing this with me, and thank you, as always, for watching and listening, and thank you for sending questions. It's very fun to get. To get sort of inside baseball in this way. This is like the stuff we talk about at work all the time. It's fun to get to do it kind of in this more public setting. So thank you to everybody who called and emailed and sent me notes on signal. Keep it all coming. The hotline as always. 866-Verge11 the email vergecasthe verge.com Send us all of your thoughts and feelings and questions about absolutely everything. This show is a production of the Verge and the Vox Media Podcast network. This episode was produced by Eric Gomez, Brandon Kiefer and Travis Larchuk. I will be back with Nilay on Friday to talk about the news. There's a lot of developer season stuff starting to heat up. There's a lot of AI chaos because there is always AI chaos. And presumably Brendan Carr will be up to stuff too. We'll see you then.

B (87:50)

Rock and Ro.