The conversation revolves around the challenges faced by testers and the lack of understanding and support they receive from leadership. The hosts discuss the misconception of the value of testers and the need for leaders to create an environment where testers can thrive. They highlight the importance of addressing the frustrations and unhappiness of testers and the need for leaders to take responsibility for creating a supportive and nurturing culture.

The conversation also touches on the changing expectations of developers compared to testers and the need for leaders to have a better understanding of the role and value of testers. The conversation explores the disconnect between the expectations and perspectives of testing and quality engineers. It highlights the need for leaders to take responsibility for creating a supportive environment and culture. The role of tools and marketing in shaping these expectations is also discussed.

The conversation concludes with the importance of clear communication, understanding the needs of the team, and nurturing the growth of testers and quality engineers.

#podcast #softwaretesting #software #softwaredevelopment

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

11:38 - Challenge Networks. Listen to Adam Grant explain the concept of a Challenge Network on the DOAC podcast.
26:30 - Jerry Weinberg's 2nd Law of Consulting from his book The Secrets of Consulting
- "No matter how it looks at first, it's always a people problem."
- Find more of Jerry's quotes on this page
28:40 - Vern talking about his talk in episode 6 "How No-Code Test Tools, Technical Leadership & Glue Work Impact Software Quality"
- Tanya's Glue Work presentation which you can read or watch
- "What Is Quiet Quitting?" a BBC News article describing the phenomenon
- Vernon's Agile Yorkshire presentation where he describes the link between those concepts
29:19 - Martin Hynie
- Martin describing the wider impact of his talk
- Martin's LinkedIn
30:59 - Maaret Pyhäjärvi & Anna Baik
- Anna's quote that Maaret shared on LinkedIn
- Anna's LinkedIn
- Maaret's LinkedIn
34:35 - Prompt Engineer
- What's a Prompt Engineer?
35:30 - Adelina Chalmers
- Adelina's AMA session that I joined (please follow her and join her sessions, she's AWESOME!)
- Adelina's LinkedIn

00:00 Introduction and Technical Discussion
01:27 - What's going on with Rich's fingers?!
01:36 Challenges and Misunderstandings Faced by Testers and Quality Engineers
01:54 - Everything the Testers in your team want to tell you but are too afraid
02:50 - Vern's theory
07:40 - Why do other roles get "the nutrients" they need?
08:09 The Value of Testers and the Need for Supportive Leadership
10:26 - What do leaders misunderstand about the value of Testers and QEs?
11:38 - Support networks Vs Challenger networks
12:09 - The bugs we report that people REALLY don't like!
12:43 - System problems disguised as testing problems
14:37 Shifting Expectations for Developers and the Evolving Understanding of Testing
14:53 - Groundhog day!
16:10 - Rich wonders if our expectations are reasonable
19:29 - How does the world perceive Developers, Designers, and Testers?
21:04 - How expectations have changed for Developers
23:07 Creating a Supportive and Nurturing Environment for Testers
24:08 - How a lack of curiosity impacts the wellbeing of your team
26:21 - Expectation vs Reality
26:59 Bridging the Gap: Expectations and Perspectives
27:27 - How to collaborate on expectations with the Tester in your life!
28:37 - Martin's crazy experiments, Glue Work, Technical Leadership, and Quality Engineering
30:13 - What does this tell us about the culture of the organisation?
30:58 Creating a Supportive Environment for Testers and Quality Engineers
31:52 - Rich asks if this is only a problem for people like us?
32:41 The Role of Tooling in Shaping Expectations
35:30 - What can we learn from the CEO/CTO relationship?
38:12 - What can we learn from relationships, period?
40:19 - ⚽️ Footy
42:16 - The impact of language and narrative on testing in the test tool market
45:50 - The link between testing, manual labour, and knowledge work
46:20 Advocating for Testers and Quality Engineers
47:10 - Hiring to solve problems or to put bums in seats
48:00 - Rich takes us back to the chicken and egg
50:08 - A potential new focus and name for the show!
51:22 - Outro