E1102 - Age of Attraction Reunion | Exclusively on The Viall Files

Summary

The Viall Files – E1102: Age of Attraction Reunion

Date: April 1, 2026
Host: Nick Viall
Co-host: Natalie Joy
Theme: An in-depth reunion for the cast of “Age of Attraction” season one—exploring what happened after filming, the real impact of age gaps, relationship challenges, heartbreaks, growth, and the fate of each couple.

---

Episode Overview

This reunion episode gathers the entire season one cast of “Age of Attraction” in a candid, sometimes emotional, and often humorous roundtable hosted by Nick Viall and Natalie Joy. The cast revisits relationship journeys, discusses the realities and myths of age-gap relationships, unpacks why some couples thrived (or fizzled), and shares powerful lessons learned about love, communication, and self-growth.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Where Do the Couples Stand Now? ([05:43]–[07:05])

• Still Together:
  • Andrew & Libby
  • Logan & Vanessa (now engaged)
• No Longer Together:
  • John & Teresa
  • Jorge & Vanelle
  • Derek & Pfeiffer
  • Chris & Leah

"I’ll be honest, Logan and Vanessa. I didn’t think you two had it in you." – Nick Viall ([05:58])

Reflections:
Most relationships faced the ultimate test outside the “bubble” of the show, confronting real-world pressures, distance, family, and internal fears.

---

2. The Real Impact of Age Gaps ([07:05]–[15:56])

• Emotional “Baggage” & Life Experience:
  • Nick and guests discuss how older participants have more “scars,” but also more wisdom.
  • The age difference isn’t inherently a problem—lack of understanding or mismatched life experience is.

"When you’re saying, 'I’ve been through a lot,' does my partner understand? ...That can be a huge disconnect.” – Nick Viall ([07:29])

"If you lose, don’t lose the lesson. The mistakes you make in one relationship, you take that forward." – Jorge ([14:13])

• Breaking Stereotypes:
  • Some younger partners, like Libby, prove to be exceptionally mature; some older partners, like Jorge, still face growth edges.
  • For several pairs, age became less relevant than communication and values.

---

3. Deep Dives—Individual Couples and Breakup Reflections

A. Andrew & Libby ("The Taylor Swift Couple")

Long Distance & Age Gap:

• Surprised at how little age difference has affected them, thanks to mutual growth, support, and communication ([17:38]–[23:04]).
• No major backlash from family or friends; most people “see them as two individuals.”
• Still figuring out long-distance logistics; discuss future possibility of splitting time between Baltimore and Florida ([23:24]).

"Honestly, I feel like I relate to him more than anybody I’ve dated that’s my age." – Libby ([18:30])

• On Kids and Family:
  • Andrew already has teenage daughters; Libby is clear about wanting kids in the future.
  • Both are careful about timing, with Andrew cautious about introducing Libby to his daughters until things are “forever” ([32:55]).
• Biggest Strengths:
  • “Healthiest relationship... our communication is fantastic.” – Andrew ([26:55])

---

B. Jorge & Vanelle ("Communication Breakdown")

• Broke up due to differences in boundaries (Vanelle’s abstinence) and miscommunications ([40:52]–[57:25]).
• Abstinence Misunderstood:
  • Jorge interpreted Vanelle’s abstinence ambiguously; both admit failure to clearly articulate needs and limits.

"Communication is key. For me, communication is everything." – Jorge ([43:01])

• Vancouver Incident:
  • Disagreement arose after Jorge confronted a stranger who approached Vanelle; she saw it as escalation, he as protection ([47:02]–[52:23]).
• Both share mutual respect and lingering feelings, but agree age/generation gap contributed to misunderstandings ([66:00]).
• No Reconciliation Expected:
  • “At the very least, we’re friends for life.” – Jorge ([60:56])
• Both reflect on ways to better communicate and learn from the experience.

---

C. Derek & Pfeiffer ("Bubble Burst")

• Relationship ended post-show; distance and lifestyle mismatch proved too great ([69:38]–[84:18]).
• Influence of Friends & Reality:
  • Pfeiffer’s younger, single social circle in Seattle contributed to doubts about “moving across the country for a man.”
  • “I can tailor my conversation... but you’re basically living a college life, you know, and now you’re going to be with a man taking care of a five-year-old. That’s a lot.” – Derek ([73:04])
• No animosity; both learned about openness, compatibility, and being honest about real-world logistics and stages of life.
• Derek is now single, cautious, but open to dating younger women with “deeper conversations” early on ([83:05]–[84:18]).

---

D. Teresa & John ("Prince Harry & Meghan Markle")

• Their mountain-top fairy tale fizzled post-show largely due to emotional miscommunication following an uncomfortable encounter with John’s sister and a castmate ([93:10]–[117:53]).
• Teresa felt unsupported when external judgment on age surfaced; John admits to shutting down emotionally after repeated age-related concerns ([99:00]–[101:58], [114:32]).
• Key Issue:
  • “I was just asking for what we had promised each other... I was dying for some support, some reassurance... and I didn’t get any.” – Teresa ([96:45])
• John acknowledges he “gave up” emotionally and was “fed up with age being an issue,” but both agree communication—not age—ended things.
• Teresa’s children only learned of John’s age via the show’s release ([120:41]).
• Both express gratitude and growth, but no plans to rekindle.

---

E. Leah & Chris ("Mismatch in Truthfulness")

• Chris’s hot-and-cold commitment left Leah blindsided; she learned post-filming he hadn’t been honest about his reservations ([127:58]–[147:16]).
• Chris admits he wanted to go home early in Vancouver and was “struggling,” but didn’t communicate directly to Leah.
• Cast’s Consensus:
  • Chris spared Leah’s feelings in the moment but left her feeling played; most cast members and hosts urge Chris to own his truth and not just “be the nice guy” ([133:13]–[140:06]).
• Future Appearances:
  • Chris is announced as a cast member for next season of Perfect Match ([151:19]).
• Leah reflects: “You played me. …In the real world, I would never get played, because I have options.” ([142:57])

---

F. Vanessa & Logan ("The Ones Who Surprised Everyone")

• Status: Engaged and together, planning to move in together, eyeing wedding and next steps ([153:05]).
• Proved everyone wrong after being “the couple least expected to last.”
• Resilience Through Hardships:
  • Overcame family loss, health issues (Logan’s Achilles), distance, and job changes ([154:17]–[155:21]).
  • “Constant communication, constant understanding and compromise on both sides.” – Logan ([154:17])
• Learning from Each Other:
  • Logan credits Vanessa with helping him think about life long-term, stability, and “elevating him.” ([156:31])
  • Vanessa aims to break stereotypes: “Older women dating a younger man is still frowned upon...I’m hoping that people can see this and feel like this is okay.” ([164:32])

---

4. Notable Quotes & Moments

On Relationship Wisdom:

"When you get older, the last thing you want is to waste your time on something that’s not going to work.” – Andrew ([26:46])

On Age & Stereotypes:

“Older men dating younger women since the beginning of time, but older women dating a younger man is like, still frowned upon in society… It’s okay, we don’t have to be ashamed. Women can have it together and it doesn’t diminish your value or your partner’s value.” – Vanessa ([164:32])

On Love & Vulnerability:

"There’s a tight window between, come on, versus like—" (cue laughter) – Nick, with group jokes about awkwardly portrayed intimacy ([158:25])

On Communication:

"When you’re in a relationship with a woman and you and her say we’re on the same team, right? So we’re never against each other. ...No matter what happens...give the benefit of the doubt and say, what did you mean by what you just did?" – Jorge ([56:00])

On Healing and Gratitude:

“This just really saved me. ... Logan saved me. I prayed for an angel every day, and here he is.” – Vanessa on losing her mother and finding love ([167:02])

---

5. Timestamps for Major Segments

• [05:43] — Show of hands: Who’s still together?
• [07:05] — The role of “baggage,” age, and personal history
• [17:38] — Andrew & Libby: Navigating age, long-distance, & family
• [40:52] — Jorge & Vanelle: Where communication collapsed
• [69:38] — Derek & Pfeiffer: The impact of lifestyle and friends
• [93:10] — Teresa & John: The breakup and lessons learned
• [127:58] — Leah & Chris: The fallout and reckoning
• [153:05] — Vanessa & Logan: Engagement, resilience & hope

---

6. Final Lessons & Reflections

• Communication, Not Age, Is Key:
  Across all relationships, clear, honest, and caring communication—not just age—was almost always the difference between relationships thriving or ending.

"It’s more about our compatibility and how we work through some of these issues ...are we going to allow age to be the end of our relationship, or something we work through.” – Nick Viall ([169:44])

• Openness to Growth:
  Participants universally express gratitude for the show’s opportunity to challenge themselves and “dispel myths” about age and dating.

• Support Across the Household:
  Despite differences, the cast shows respect and affection for one another, eager to celebrate growth, love, and the power of taking risks.

---

Closing Note

Nick Viall:

"You will always mean a lot to us. We certainly hope for many more seasons, but you guys will always be number one in our hearts." ([169:29])

Natalie Joy:

"Age is sometimes just a number—and sometimes it’s not. But that’s love for you." ([169:51])

---

For fans and newcomers alike, this reunion demonstrates that age-difference dating is complex and deeply individual—and that in love, it’s always the conversations that matter most.

---

End of Summary

Transcript

[Natalie Joy]

This is Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab and this message is brought

[Vanelle]

to you by Simple Mills.

[Natalie Joy]

Simple Mills packs nutrient dense ingredients into snacks that taste amazing. Like their cheesy light and airy pop ems.

[Vanelle]

Or their five different delicious flavors of almond flour crackers.

[Libby]

Lifting you up, never weighing you down, so you can keep shining through the day.

[Derek]

You could say Simple Mills is the

[Vanelle]

feeling of the sun in a snack.

[Nick Viall]

Find simple meals at your grocery store.

[Host/Narrator]

If you're listening to this on audio, make sure to check out our YouTube channel to see the extended visual cut of this reunion. It's an incredible production.

[Nick Viall]

We really went all out to give

[Host/Narrator]

you guys the best show ever. Plus the expressions on these guys faces

[Nick Viall]

are something you will definitely not want to miss.

[Teresa]

You're crazy.

[Nick Viall]

Welcome to the Age of Attraction season one reunion.

[Host/Narrator]

I'm your host, Nick Viall.

[Natalie Joy]

And I'm Natalie Joy. We are so excited to be here with all of the cast of Age of Attraction to unpack all of the burning questions that you have been dying to know. And we're not going to leave any gap unexamined.

[Host/Narrator]

This is a show about regular people finding love outside the confines of societal pressure and influence and seeing if their commitment to each other can survive in the real world.

[Natalie Joy]

Some of our couples found that love was enough. Others realized that their differences may be too much to handle.

[Host/Narrator]

This is the very first time the entire cast has reunited since filming and they are here to give us all

[Nick Viall]

the tea about their experiences on the show and life after committing or not.

[Natalie Joy]

Teresa, as a stylist. Who's best dressed today?

[Vanelle]

There's only one answer.

[Derek]

Me. Me.

[Libby]

Yes.

[Natalie Joy]

Love it.

[Teresa]

I would say myself. And then Vanille and then Libby and then.

[Natalie Joy]

Does anyone need some work?

[Teresa]

Yeah, I mean, there's always room for a while. I can give you guys my rates later.

[Nick Viall]

There we go.

[Natalie Joy]

There we go.

[Nick Viall]

John, how's the royal family doing? Any drama to report?

[John]

No drama. Still working on my accent, but I'll get back to you guys on that.

[Nick Viall]

Without giving us the whole recipe though. Describe the potato recipe. Like what's the thinly sliced?

[John]

Gotta make em extra crispy.

[Host/Narrator]

Okay.

[John]

A ton of extra sharp cheddar cheese.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[John]

And salt.

[Jorge]

Okay.

[Logan]

Okay.

[Nick Viall]

All right.

[Jorge]

That's it.

[John]

You can always.

[Nick Viall]

And we bake it in an oven at 450 or.

[John]

It's funny cause we were baking in. What was it? Fahrenheit or Celsius?

[Libby]

Celsius.

[John]

And I didn't know what the temperature was and I thought I was gonna burn the whole place down. But how Good. Was it?

[Teresa]

I mean, I think I was risking a heart attack, but it was really good.

[Natalie Joy]

Libby, Quick, which Spice Girl is Victoria Beckham? Posh love.

[Jorge]

Let's go.

[Libby]

Good job, guys. And there was no Googling done. I've just gotten enough feedback and roasting. I don't even have to look anything up.

[Nick Viall]

Andrew, you've gotten a haircut.

[Andrew]

No, I haven't gotten a haircut. You let it grow up.

[Nick Viall]

New hairstyle.

[Teresa]

New hairstyle.

[Natalie Joy]

And a little tan.

[John]

Yeah.

[Vanessa]

Where you been?

[Andrew]

Down in Florida, thawing out.

[Natalie Joy]

Thawing out.

[Chris]

Golfing.

[Libby]

Yes, of course.

[Natalie Joy]

Vanessa. Loving the pink. Loving the pink Lipstick. Fourth of July. Has it been coming around often or.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, we celebrate 4th of July at least once or twice a month when we come to visit each other. Every.

[Teresa]

Every.

[Vanessa]

Every time's a holiday.

[Nick Viall]

It's coming along great.

[Jorge]

It's coming along.

[Logan]

Okay.

[Jorge]

Hey, set the record straight right now

[Logan]

with everybody in here and let them know.

[Nick Viall]

Just let them know.

[Derek]

He puts it down.

[Logan]

Let them know.

[Vanessa]

It's good.

[Libby]

It's good.

[Natalie Joy]

It's much better. He is so serious.

[Jorge]

We're gonna finish, huh?

[Derek]

That's crazy.

[Jorge]

That is.

[Logan]

Hey, her shit's fire. Why do you think I put a ring on it?

[Nick Viall]

Okay, I can't help for you.

[Libby]

We'll give you your moment.

[Natalie Joy]

Logan, how are the optics today?

[Logan]

The optics are great. I mean, I think I look good.

[Jorge]

What do you think?

[Natalie Joy]

You look great.

[Logan]

Optics are good.

[Derek]

Everybody looks.

[Teresa]

Yeah, optics are great.

[Nick Viall]

Jorge, you're looking dapper as ever.

[Jorge]

Thank you.

[Logan]

Thank you so much.

[Nick Viall]

Any new tattoos?

[Jorge]

I'm working on one.

[Logan]

Okay.

[Nick Viall]

Yes.

[Jorge]

Because, you know, I'm s addiction, you know. Okay.

[Natalie Joy]

Is it aoa.

[Jorge]

You know, that's a good idea. Put some airway in a river right down my arm. I think that would be a good.

[John]

Hey, anything but a mountain.

[Jorge]

Anything but a bear.

[Vanelle]

Oh, that was.

[Nick Viall]

Hi.

[Natalie Joy]

You're looking stunning.

[Vanelle]

Thank you so much.

[Natalie Joy]

How are you feeling?

[Libby]

I feel okay.

[Natalie Joy]

Okay.

[Libby]

Okay.

[Natalie Joy]

Why are you nervous?

[Vanelle]

I don't know. I'm just nervous.

[Libby]

You're in good hands.

[Derek]

Thank you.

[Jorge]

You're welcome.

[Nick Viall]

Chris, why are you wearing sunglasses?

[Libby]

Celebrity.

[Chris]

It was bright in here.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Chris]

Don't you think?

[Natalie Joy]

Are you ready to take a nap?

[Chris]

Hiding the eyes a little bit.

[Nick Viall]

You need to take a nap? Yeah.

[Chris]

Just in case I need to close my eyes while everything's going on in here, you know?

[Nick Viall]

Okay. You ready to get going?

[Jorge]

I don't want. You know.

[Derek]

Keep the.

[Jorge]

Keep the.

[Chris]

Keep the emotions out of it for a second.

[Jorge]

Okay.

[John]

For a second.

[Natalie Joy]

Derek, your skin is looking very smooth and Shiny.

[Derek]

Thank you.

[Natalie Joy]

Adding anything new?

[Derek]

No. Lots of water. Moisturizer. Always.

[Libby]

That's what y' all love.

[Vanessa]

Water.

[Natalie Joy]

And staying out of the sun.

[Derek]

Absolutely.

[Natalie Joy]

Allegedly.

[Derek]

If you go to the beach, you gotta bring an umbrella.

[Natalie Joy]

Umbrella.

[Derek]

With some chairs and set it up. Done.

[Teresa]

Done.

[Nick Viall]

All day long.

[Derek]

All day long.

We're not playing.

[Natalie Joy]

Leah, you've been flying anywhere recently?

[Derek]

No, I've been off. You guys. I live a very flexible lifestyle. That's facts. But I do leave on to New York on Sunday.

[Libby]

Busy.

[Derek]

We love it a little bit sometimes.

[Nick Viall]

Well, we are very excited to have you all here. And I think let's just start with the question. I think everyone wants to know by a show of hands, who are the couples that are still together?

[Natalie Joy]

Two, three.

[Host/Narrator]

Two couples.

[Nick Viall]

We got Andrew and Libby, Logan and Vanessa. I'll be honest, Logan and Vanessa. I didn't think you two had it in you.

[Natalie Joy]

It is beautiful to see, let me tell you.

[Vanessa]

The show started after the show was wrapped. That's when, like, real life came in. And that's where I wish people could have seen more of. Hmm. Love that.

[Natalie Joy]

Well, John and Teresa, you guys committed.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Natalie Joy]

At the.

[Teresa]

Definitely did Tower recently. That was real.

[Natalie Joy]

That was real.

[Teresa]

I mean, I'm feeling good. John and I are in a really good place, and I think we still have, like, I still have some sort of questions that I would like some answers to, but I think for the most part, like, you know, we tried. It was, you know, a combination of factors that led us to where we are today. But, yeah, I mean, I'm happy with where we are today. I think we. I think it. It's a very good show of what we did have. The fact that we are really in a good place right now.

[Nick Viall]

Well, we will certainly want to unpack everything that's happened since filming and kind of really understand how we got to today. A little bit later. Logan, you so eloquently put it at some point in the season that the older people come with a lot of baggage.

[Jorge]

Eloquently eloquent.

[Host/Narrator]

But in fairness, there is some truth to that.

[Nick Viall]

And I think it's interesting watching it back. Obviously, Nally and I have an age difference, and I think everyone who like the Teresas, Vanessa, Leah, Andrew, Jorge, I think all of us that were dating younger people, I think that's a very relatable thing. Right. And I think a lot about this show really came down to if you're someone who's lived some life, you've had some relationship, you come in with some scars when you're dating someone younger. I know it was with Natalie. I think the big question is, what have you been through? Have you been through the ringer? Has your heart been crushed as well? When you're saying, I've been through a lot, does my partner understand? Quite honestly, I think that's a big measuring stick. It wasn't until I learned about Natalie's past. Not that I was rooting for her to have bad relationships, but the fact that she could relate. I've been broken by another human being in past relationships, and if you're dating someone who doesn't understand that, that can be a huge disconnect. With that being said, I just want to open up to the group, starting with Teresa. You referenced a lot of times throughout the show some very difficult relationships from your past at your comfort level. Can you just give us a little bit of insight into some of the things that you have been through and the impact that had on you as a person and how that helped or affected you in relationships, specifically with John?

[Teresa]

Yeah. You know, we can talk about things that break you from relationships and then just life itself. Right. Cause it comes in so many different forms. And so I think John and I had talked about that. You know, he was really broken by his disappointment in baseball and everything. And so I think that was where we kind of could relate to that disappointment. When you really are depending on something, you really think something's gonna happen for you, and then without any control, it just falls apart, and you're just broken by that. For me, obviously, yeah. I've lived many, many lives in some ways, and my relationships have been some good, some not so good. I think from the very beginning, not to take up too much time, but I had my brother pass away when I was 18, and that was my first sort of, like, relationship that just broke without any expectation. It was very sudden. And, you know, you get the rug pulled out from under you when you have this, like, relationship that you're depending on and all of that. And so that was number one. And then, you know, just, like, relationships that I had after I got divorced that were. You think you have some. You really think, like, someone is being honest with you, and then you come to find out that, you know, they're lying, they're cheating, they're just not in it for the same reasons that you're in it. And so, yeah, it's been. It's been really hard to get over those. Before I came on the show, I really did work on myself and heal from a lot of those hurts and So I felt like, you know, I was in a really good place to start looking for someone that could be my person.

[Nick Viall]

What about you, Vanessa? You've obviously came in very vulnerable, talking about your four engagements.

[Vanessa]

Yes, my four LeBron's rings that I had.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Vanessa]

So, I mean, I've had some trials. I was a single mom at 18 years old, and I had to work full time and go to college and take care of my daughter. And, you know, I had some relationships, and I really was kind of like a serial monogamist for a while, and I poured my heart into these relationships, and they didn't work out. And, you know, it was really disappointing. But I don't want to let that, like, define me as who I am. You know, I'm pretty resilient. I've been really hurt, but I don't like to focus on that. And I wanted to look for something new and something fresh, and I wanted to heal.

[Nick Viall]

Were there parts while getting to know Logan that. Were there things you needed to hear him say to make sure that he understood everything you've been through?

[Vanessa]

Yes. And, you know, that's what I think about, too, is a lot of times I was taking, like, those past relationships and I was projecting them onto him. You know, there's so many things watching it back and the things that I was saying, and I was like, that had nothing to do with him. That was, like my past, like, coming back to get me and, you know, insecurities about that sort of thing. So, you know, he was the first one that really listened to me, and we talked a lot. I mean, he knows more about me than anyone else, even some of my girlfriends, you know, and the things that we talked about, and that was just really important in us getting close and having intimacy on an emotional level.

[Logan]

I'd like to touch on that just a little bit. I mean, back to the comment that

[Chris]

you made, you know, you didn't think

[Logan]

we were gonna work out. Nobody did. I think anybody in the cast, you can ask everybody, because of the bickering, because of the arguments, a lot of people didn't think we were gonna make it. But that's why, you know, one of the things that you saw. And I just wasn't able to articulate my thoughts sometimes because of some of those arguments and some of the things that happened on the show. I'm just. I was really, really trying to figure this woman out because I saw the essence of this woman who had been broken but has gone through a past that, you know, we're not going to talk about today. But I saw and heard the things that she's gone through, and it led her to where she is today. You know, she's a business owner. She owns a house. She makes great. And I saw so much value in that and being able to get past those things in life. Because a lot of times people will go through situations in life and it makes or breaks you. And what she has gone through, I wouldn't be able to do it. So. And that's kind of where I fell in love with her.

[Nick Viall]

I do want some clarification. You guys are, in fact, engaged.

[Vanessa]

We sure are.

[Host/Narrator]

I wasn't sure, because will you do.

[Nick Viall]

Life with me isn't.

[Host/Narrator]

Will you marry me? So I just wanted to make sure. How was it actually an engagement?

[Derek]

So I think because he's young, he just didn't know the right terminology. You know, he forgot it's different for the young ones.

[Vanessa]

You know what I mean?

[Teresa]

He was nervous.

[Derek]

But I will say this. I watched them at the airport with no cameras, and I watched Logan say goodbye to Vanessa. It was beautiful. He literally, you know, I think he was at the window. She was looking backwards. It was. You know what I'm saying? And I watched that. Cause I think, Derek, we were there. And so I was just like, you know what? It was an honest connection because I. Yes, you. They were bickering, but once again, he was fighting. They were fighting for each other. And if you don't even see that, you don't have that. What do you. You know what I'm saying? It's empty. So y' all are.

[Jorge]

So I wanted to say something about. I think that a lot of times when we say, maybe scars or trauma or relational baggage, I think there's a plus side that comes along with that, too. And the plus side, I think, is experience and knowledge. I think the experience and knowledge comes with it. Because I think sometimes if you lose, don't lose the lesson. The mistakes you may make in one relationship, you may take that forward and say, I'm not going to make that. I'm going to be a little bit more patient. I'm going to be a little bit more this. And so I think that it's. I don't. I don't look at any relationship that anyone has as a failure. It's a lesson. And it's just moving on to find the, you know, the perfect situation where you and a person understand each other.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I always say, like, honestly, when it comes to my Past relationships, I don't even remember, like, the happy times. I remember the sad times, but the sad times aren't like, I laugh at them now. They're things that we survived. I think when we are dating people who might be younger than us, when we hear things like, I wanna throw caution to the wind. I think sometimes that's the moment you wanna just make sure, yeah, let's throw caution to the wind. But like, you know, do you know what you're throwing to the wind, so to speak? And I think sometimes that's the thing I notice with Teresa and Vanessa and Leah and myself in those relationships, and Andrew a little bit when you're, like, having those conversations. But, like, you know, are. Are we. Do we know what we're betting on here? You know, it's like, let's get risky. But, like, you know, we just want to make sure. So, yeah, it's both a lesson, but we just want to also understand that our partner can relate to us.

[Teresa]

We have more to risk in some ways because we've already, like, gotten ourselves to the point where, you know, we've been hurt so many times. It's like. Like the level of what you can tolerate is lower, you know, So I

[Nick Viall]

don't know, you're kind of like, not again.

[Teresa]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

You know, you're trying to avoid the not again.

[Teresa]

Yeah, definitely.

[Host/Narrator]

How was it?

[Nick Viall]

Just watching it back for all you guys? I mean, obviously being on reality TV is a bit of an experience. How's it been?

[Derek]

We're here.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I get the ick a little bit.

[Nick Viall]

Okay. Definitely get there.

[Chris]

A little cringe.

[Andrew]

From yourself or from myself?

[Chris]

A little cringe. Get over the cringe and we'll be okay.

[Andrew]

I think it's a very vulnerable thing, you know, to watch yourself on. On television. I'm a very hard critic, you know, so I've been very critical of myself. You know, it's not easy.

[Vanelle]

Yeah.

[Natalie Joy]

Libby, how'd you feel?

[Libby]

I think I feel the same way. I'm definitely going to be critical of myself. You start noticing things, everything about everything you've ever done. But I remember being in that experience thinking whatever anybody had to say about the way that I'm acting on this show, you don't know until you're experiencing it. You don't know how you're gonna act in front of cameras. It's very much a weird environment where you don't have your phone, you're not around your family, you're really isolated, and you're trying to explore a connection with somebody. And that Alone can be a scary experience, but you're also trying to act yourself in front of the camera. And I think that for me, those two things together were really hard.

[Natalie Joy]

It's totally valid. Libby and Andrew left the retreat with a 16 year age gap and a mutual love of Taylor Swift in hopes that their love story would. Would just say yes. But with Andrew's daughters and Libby's bright future, it seemed like we might have known their fate all too well.

[Host/Narrator]

That is until Andrew learned what a

[Nick Viall]

hard launch meant and decided to manifest it anyway. And they say age gap relationships don't teach you anything.

[Natalie Joy]

Well, how has that been for you two?

[Libby]

It's been great. First of all, I just wanted to put it on the record that if it speaks to anything of how weird this experience is, my mother notified me. I've actually been to three Taylor Swift concerts. That's how delusional I was in this moment.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, well, I want to work backwards a little bit. You are one of the couples that's still together. It was really fun watching you guys fall in love on this show. But how have you gotten to this point still in a relationship? What's the thing or things that you think has made it work?

[Libby]

I think that there's a lot that goes into being a long distance relationship, an age gap relationship, all those things. And I think that you saw us really touch on the silly side of things on the show. But behind that, off camera or sometimes on, there were a lot of deeper conversations that were. Had a lot of ways in which we realized that we were compatible that I never expected. And I really feel like he was able to meet me on the level that I was at and we could kind of mutually benefit from our relationship where I feel like I have things to learn from him, he has things to learn from me. And I feel like that's been the biggest thing for us is just being great communicators, being open about everything. And honestly, I feel like I relate to him more in our relationship than anybody I've dated that's my age. And I think that he kind of feels the same way.

[Nick Viall]

Well, I'm curious, Andrew. I mean, I always talk, you know, about how in our relationship we are equals, you know, and we really live that where, you know, the power dynamic is not off. You know, I come to her with as many questions, looking for counsel, looking for advice as she does with me. I am curious with Libby. What are some things that you really go to her on and how has she been kind of just helpful with aspects of Your life outside of just, you know, getting Taylor Swift, you know, knowledge and things like that.

[Andrew]

She actually has a lot of wisdom. A lot of people. I don't think everyone in this room knows I sold my business at the end of last year.

[Jorge]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And it was. It was a weird thing for me. You know, it's. I'm 39 years old now. I'm kind of starting over. I'm in a transition period in my life and she's been amazing. You know, she's been there. There's been some days where I'm like, what am I doing with my life? What's next? And, you know, she's been that rock for me throughout this process. And, you know, I don't think that, you know, I almost didn't come out this week to la. I was thinking about staying home and she was, you know, there the entire time, like picking me up. So. Yeah.

[Natalie Joy]

Libby, have you felt the age difference much being outside of the bubble?

[Libby]

Honestly, No. I think I've felt it way less than you would expect. I think the only times I feel it are all in refreshing ways. It's when I can have an open conversation with somebody about my feelings, when it's when I need advice from somebody else. A lot of different things come into play that I never expected that are all good parts. And honestly, the only. I don't think anybody looks at us and is like, oh, these two have an age gap. You know what I mean? So I really forget the whole concept of this show and the fact that there was a time where I was like, holy crap, this person is 38 years old with teenage kids. I'm 22. I forget that that whole thing happened because we never are like we're in an age gap relationship.

[Nick Viall]

Has anyone had an issue with your age difference either online or in the wild, so to speak?

[Libby]

Yeah. So obviously online. I think that something important to note about this experience is that we didn't know each other's ages. Obviously I look younger than he is, but I think that he thought there was only people 25 and older. So I remember feeling bad. I felt like I age fished him. And I was like, I'm so sorry about that. As soon as he said his age, I was Jorge.

[Natalie Joy]

Because he didn't know 60 year olds were there either.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, I know, right?

[Jorge]

Man, I didn't like that comment either. By the way, Drew, I'm gonna hold

[Derek]

you on that one.

[Jorge]

Like, oh, this dude was like ancient, man. I didn't know he was here.

[Chris]

He's my boy. But he's like, Moses, compliment.

[Andrew]

Like, you look great. You look great for 60.

[Jorge]

You look great for Moses.

[Nick Viall]

You look great for 60.

[Jorge]

Right, right, right. I like that underhanded comment. Yeah, you look great for being Moses. I didn't know he looked at it.

[Vanelle]

Right. I think you age fished, everyone.

[Derek]

Thank you.

[Jorge]

From you. I'll take that. That's a compliment.

[Nick Viall]

But for him, no. I'm curious. Libby and Andrew, what are any challenges that you guys have had to work through over the past few months?

[Libby]

I would just say the whole long distance thing is a little bit of challenge, but I think we've both been really good about that. We have great communication. We see each other a lot. And honestly, we haven't really had many problems in our personal lives with people having things to say about our age dynamic. Obviously, you're going to make assumptions if you know it, but I don't think he brings me around as, like, this is Libby. We have a significant age gap. Do you see it? I think that his friends see me for the person that I am and his family, and same with mine. They've been incredibly accepting because they know me and. And they now know him. So I think that it's way easier to be like, okay, these are these two individuals, and this is a relationship. Not like, here's an age gap relationship. And what does that mean? And also, like I was saying, it's important to note that we didn't know each other's ages. Had he been 38 and approached me and been like, oh, you're 22. That's perfect, I would have been like. And maybe he would have thought the same if I was like, hey, Mr. 38. Like, because it isn't normal for that to just be on the table and then move forward. So I think that that would have stopped us in the real world.

[Natalie Joy]

Well, are y' all planning on shortening the long distance? Has there been conversations of, like, what that might look like?

[Andrew]

Yeah, that's the. The next step for our relationship is trying to figure out the long distance thing and end that.

[Natalie Joy]

So you would move to Baltimore?

[Libby]

Nope.

[Nick Viall]

You still don't know the answer.

[Vanelle]

Okay.

[Teresa]

We're still figuring it out.

[Nick Viall]

Is there a clear path to where?

[Andrew]

Thinking Florida and just split time. But at least I will split time between Florida and Baltimore.

[Natalie Joy]

Okay, well, Andrew, early on in the show, you said that you were used to dating younger. They were fun. They were crazy.

[Teresa]

Do you still feel that way?

[Andrew]

Libby's not that crazy. I mean, she.

[Libby]

You heard it here first.

[Andrew]

Yeah. She's not that Crazy. She has, you know, some crazy comments from time to time, but she isn't crazy.

[Teresa]

Is the best.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

In the best way. In the best possible way. But no, she's really surprised me with her communication. You know, doing the long distance thing. I think towards the end of the show I was like really nervous about that because communication in my past relationships hadn't been that great. And that's living in the same city, staying with each other, you know, multiple times, you know, throughout the week. So I'm like, how is this going to work with her being on the west coast and being on the east coast? But I think that's where our relationship has been so strong is our communication is fantastic. For someone that is 22, like, she's a great kid.

[Libby]

23 now.

[Andrew]

23 now. She communicates great.

[Nick Viall]

We used to do that a lot too.

[Teresa]

Every birthday, right?

[Libby]

Every number. I'm like, it's okay and a half.

[Teresa]

Yeah, yeah.

[Libby]

I'm actually 23.5 now. So what do you know about younger?

[Andrew]

And by younger I mean they have me saying younger, younger, younger. Blonde, younger. The mother of my children, she's a brunette. She is older. I'm 30, I'm 8 on the show, 39 now. If I dated a 32 year old, she's younger. Like what I have found, and this is no knock on anyone that's older here, like any of the older women. What I have found dating closer to my age and in the 40s is it's typically someone that's divorced, someone that has kids and we all have deal breakers, we all have things that, you know, I've always said that I didn't want to be with someone that has kids or someone that is divorced. And that's no knock on that at all. That's just like something for me that I just haven't been open to and maybe, maybe some people will be upset about that. But like for me that's just like one of those things. So what I do want people to know is I didn't go searching for a 22 year old. We didn't know each other's ages. And I very much thought, and I don't know where, you know, I don't remember who told this to me, but I thought the age demographic on the show was 25 to 55. Like I really did my shock in. I think you can see that in the Promise Room. Like I'm thinking through and I'm like, who told me? Who told me? But.

[Nick Viall]

And what were some of your biggest insecurities or fears about the idea that Libby was 22 and yet you were having feelings for her.

[Andrew]

I mean, I just had this preconceived notion, you know, my past two relationships, I did date, you know, women that were in their 20s and it didn't work out. So I'm like, okay, here we go again. Like, are we gonna be able to meet each other where the other person is in life? Like, are we gonna be able to communicate effectively? So I was just worried about that. I'm like, you know, I don't wanna waste my time. I'm getting older. I don't wanna be in another relationship where we're not going to be able to make it work, where we're not gonna be able to communicate where we are at two different places in our lives. It's just, I think some of us older people, you can agree, like the last thing you want to do when you get up there a little bit in age is like, waste your time on something that's not going to work.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. What is something about your relationship that you guys have found is just surprisingly easy?

[Andrew]

The long distance, like again, I thought it was going to be much harder. And I feel like it's the healthiest relationship when it comes to communication. Really actually look at kind of all aspects of the relationship, but so healthy when it comes to communicating. And I thought it was going to be much, much more challenging being, you know, in a long distance relationship.

[Libby]

I was genuinely surprised just by every facet meaning compatibility wise. I don't think I've ever been with somebody who had just the same outlook on every single thing as me. The same goals, the same, like, we see everything in the same light. And I don't think I've ever been in a relationship or even had like friends that were that similar to me. And I just remember we were so eye to eye on everything. And obviously I really liked him when we were in Whistler, but when we moved in together, I was like, wait, this is super weird. Like, we're doing all the same things. We just, Even when it comes to, you'll see on my friends who are like, Libby, it's not a roommate, it's a relationship. Which, very true. But those things can be detrimental things to a relationship. I think we both like things a certain way. We're a little ocd. And I don't think anybody in this experience, anybody else in the world could have gotten me to the place that we ended up. Because he was the only one to be like, hey, listen, let's, let's Be a little bit more serious. I know there's something more to you because I've heard it and so you're safe to open up to me, et cetera. And I think that we're both super lucky to have found somebody so specifically perfect for the other person. And I just remember literally walking on sunshine and rainbows and butterflies, being like, wait, is this what it's like to be with somebody who is actually compatible with you? It was a crazy experience, honestly.

[Natalie Joy]

Your friends also suggested that he should get Botox. Have you?

[Jorge]

God,

[Vanelle]

why, though?

[Host/Narrator]

Harsh.

[Andrew]

That went out, right?

[Vanelle]

He has nice skin.

[Libby]

He does. I didn't say it. She did. My Nina girl, my angel. That's just our relationship. Like, she'll look at me and be like, why are you sitting like that? What are you wearing? Whatever. And that's always warranted with me. Like, I love it. I'm like, thank you so much. You're the best. That's true love to me. And also, even though she was super harsh, she protects me, like, and she's very much a realist. So to me, that's a true friend. Is somebody who will clock you, maybe not your mans, and tell them that they need Botox. We have that problem with her, too. Okay. It's not the first time she's gone off to somebody like that. But like we said, she had the headband on and she was ready to fight. And then you see me go, nina, we can't say that. Mike. Mike. But yeah, that's. You know, that's. Sometimes we've all got that friend, but she defends me with her chest, and we love her.

[Nick Viall]

Andrew, you mentioned on the show that you had some nerves about holding Libby back, which is a feeling I really related to because obviously when Natalie and I got together, she was basically Libby's age. And there's this kind of thought of, like, yeah, we have a great connection. You like me now, but are you gonna feel the same way with me in three or four years? You know, we came to find that we were surprisingly kind of on the same path in terms of, like, what we wanted for ourselves at the stages of life that we were in. I'm curious, how were you able to work through those insecurities and fears? And how have you and Libby kind of figured out the path that your guys are on?

[Andrew]

I mean, I still have those fears, I think, from time to time. You know, for me, I have two daughters. They're teenagers at this point. I have went back and forth in my head, like, do I want More children? I definitely do, but I also think there's like a cutoff for me. I'm 39 years old. I don't know if I want to, to be having a baby at 46, 47. So does our timeframe in terms of, like when she wants kids and you know, where I would be open to having kids too. So I think that's, you know, still something that, that worries me a little bit. And I think I was even worried about it towards the end of the show. They don't show it as much, but I definitely was, you know, thinking back and forth, like, am I going to hold her back? You know, what if she wants to take the next 10 years to really focus on her career and she's 33 and wants to have kids and at that point, you know, I'm 49.

[Vanessa]

Dead.

[Derek]

Yeah, I'm dead.

[Nick Viall]

That's old. Have you guys, I mean, where are you guys on the same page in terms of that timeline? Have you guys talked about kids or what that looks like?

[Libby]

Yeah, like I said in the show, I probably am not the typical 23 year old where I just want to go crazy, experience life. Like, there is that part of it, but there's also the part where to me, experiencing life is having a stable relationship with a person that's good for me and a family and being happy. To me, that's experiencing life as far as kids and everything is concerned. That was a big conversation and a big part of the relationship. And I think you see me being like, oh, I like that he has kids, whatever. But it doesn't really show my kind of excitement about that. After I processed it, I was like, okay, I really like that this person is a girl dad. It says a lot about him. It's like, shows that he's more mature. There's definitely a certain responsibility that comes along with kids. And sometimes when you're looking for a partner, you wonder, can this person handle kids? Would this person be a good dad? And I was really refreshed to see that. I already saw that in him and for me that was a huge green flag. And yeah, I think that we had to come to terms on the show with the fact that to be with me would entail having more kids and being aligned on that timeline. And that was one of the big conversations that was really hard for me to hear his reservations and his doubts about that because that's something that's super important to me. I've always wanted to be a mom, but yeah, honestly, when I heard he had kids it just made me take him more seriously and just see him as a better candidate. And I think we are aligned on the timeline, meaning he can't wait forever. And I've always wanted to be, obviously not at this age, a mom, but a mom eventually and probably sooner than later. My parents had me on the younger side. They, they've been married for 30 years. They're an amazing example of what I want in a relationship. And so if I were to even have something that looks similar to that, I would be super happy.

[Natalie Joy]

Well, we've wrapped filming almost a year ago.

[Derek]

Ish.

[Natalie Joy]

Have you met his daughters?

[Libby]

I have not. Okay.

[Vanelle]

Why?

[Teresa]

Yeah, why not?

[Andrew]

So we're trying to figure out the long distance thing first. You know, the show, you're in a bubble. You know, it's all fun and games, you know, you're enjoying life, you're going to the pool midday on a Monday. It's a little bit different. Everything since then too has felt kind of like the honeymoon phase for us. It's, you know, we see each other once a month and we're in LA or we're in Florida, or we're in Baltimore and we're enjoying ourselves and having fun. We haven't really been able to test our relationship in terms of like spending significant amount of time together in the real world, doing our day to day, getting up, going to the gym, going to work, coming home, eating dinner together. You know, I was very adamant about this on the show. I am super, super protective of my daughters. Like, I made myself a promise after introducing my daughters to one of my exes, the only person that's ever met them. I told them, unless it's going to be my forever person, and I know that I'm not introducing someone, I don't want them to see someone come in and out of their lives. It's not fair to Libby, it's not fair to my daughters, it's not fair to me for that to happen. So, you know, long story short, I want to see that we can move in together, you know, that the relationship is headed to us getting engaged, spending the rest of our life together before, you know, we make that introduction.

[Nick Viall]

So, like, it has to be an engagement before that happens, I don't think.

[Andrew]

No, not an engagement. I think that would be a little weird, you know, to be like, oh,

[Nick Viall]

hey, by the way, meet my fiance.

[Andrew]

This is my fiance. But I think it has to be, I have to know, like I'm putting a ring on it. That's the direction that it's going.

[Natalie Joy]

Do they know that Libby exists.

[Andrew]

They do, they do.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, I am a father now, but I'm not like a father. Like, you are a single father who's out there dating. So, like, everything you're saying totally makes a lot of sense in terms of the sensitivity around it. Just to play devil's advocate, I mean, you're kind of saying two things at the same time. And one of that almost kind of sounds like I don't know how it's going with Libby almost. I'm curious, Libby, like, how does that make you feel knowing that? Like, his reasoning makes a lot of sense, but at the same time, are you internalizing that as what does that say about us?

[Libby]

Yeah, I mean, I think that there is an interesting element of this, of the fact that it's a TV show and I don't think I would be ever. Well, obviously the relationship isn't a TV show, but it will be shown on a TV show and there's an element of judgment that's going to be made one way or another. So for me, that's the only hard part is I don't want to anybody in his family to see a little clip of me and make any assumptions versus, like, me in real life.

[Nick Viall]

What do you mean by that?

[Natalie Joy]

I like them not meeting you and only watch you on tv.

[Libby]

You're nervous that, that. And just keep. And just keeping that image of me in their mind before they got a chance to make their own judgment. Because like we said, that's it's a show. Four weeks doesn't summarize you as a person. Your nervous self on camera isn't you as a person in your entirety. So there's that. But also, I just want to say, like, I really respect the fact that he's mature enough to be like, hey, it's not appropriate for me to be bringing people in and out of somebody's life. And when there's kids in the picture, I think it's hard for me to talk about because I never want to overstep because that is somebody else's family that didn't ask for their life to be put on camera and for them to be talked about to the public. So I just honestly am mostly respectful of his maturity to the situation.

[Jorge]

Okay.

[Natalie Joy]

Have you met the mother of his children?

[Libby]

I have not.

[Natalie Joy]

Is that something that you're looking at doing at some point?

[Andrew]

I mean, I think that would just boil down to her, you know, if she wants to, I, you know, I would offer that, you know, I did it, you know, the last time that someone met my daughters. I, you know, did ask her, like, did you want to meet her first before I make the introduction to the girls? But I'm going to leave that up to her. She's going to make her own decisions. I can't speak for her if she'll want to meet Libby.

[Jorge]

Okay.

[Nick Viall]

And I'm curious, I mean, do you guys talk about and it seems like it's still fairly early in the relationship, but, like, do you guys talk about engagement at all or are we just focusing on closing the long distance and things like that?

[Libby]

Yeah, I mean, as far as engagement's concerned, like, this whole show thing is kind of a wrench in the plants. We've been on the low. So we both know that, like, we see each other as a potential partner, spouse, whatever. But are we day to day? Like, so when are you popping the question? No, no, no, no, no. And also, yeah, there are those more important things about a relationship that you really need to test first before you are to get engaged to anything of the sort. One, being living together for extended amounts of times, another, being dating somebody who has kids and being a part of that. That's a whole other life that I haven't experienced.

[Host/Narrator]

Okay, let's take a quick break and then we'll be right back to get

[Nick Viall]

into it with the rest of the couples. Don't go away.

[Host/Narrator]

If you enjoyed watching Age of Attraction and are interested in possibly finding love for yourself on season two of Age of Attraction, be sure to go to ageofattractioncasting.com to apply because your future love

[Nick Viall]

story could be waiting for you.

[Host/Narrator]

Here's something a lot of homeowners don't realize until it's too late. Home insurance doesn't cover everything. Insurance helps you with things like fires or floods. But what about everyday home system and appliance breakdowns from normal wear and tear? That's where a home warranty from American Home Shield comes in. In fact, homeowners were 25 times more likely to use a home warranty than home insurance. And once you own a home, that makes sense because breakdowns are inevitable. American Home Shield offers home warranty plans that cover parts of home systems like H Vac, plumbing and electrical, plus kitchen and laundry appliances. And if a covered item can't be repaired, they'll replace it. They even offer video chat as a benefit to select plans where you can connect with a live repair expert to help assess and even fix an issue over the phone. Listeners can get 20% off select plans today. Just visit ahs.com via fil to sign up, see ahs.com contracts for coverage details including service fees, limitations and exclusions.

[Natalie Joy]

Do you ever have that one piece you've been searching for forever and either can't find it anywhere or it's way overpriced? I used to just assumed if I missed it, it was gone. Like whenever I see an influencer post an outfit, I'm like, oh my God, that skirt's so cute. And they're like, sorry, sold out four months ago. I'm like, you know what, Let me go look on Poshmark because I know I'm going to find it there. It is my go to anytime I'm hunting for something specific. Poshmark is the leading fashion resale marketpl place shaped by real people in real style. Millions of new and pre loved items, from daily wardrobe staples to vintage and luxury fashion archive worthy pieces you thought you missed forever. Current Essentials one of one vintage finds. It's all there. You can find designer pieces like something from Prada, Miu Miu Bottega, or if you're just looking for something from Free people or from Gap that maybe you saw and you missed, that maybe you were like, oh God, this is nostalgic. This is what I need. You can find it on Poshmark. And when you're ready for a closet refresh, you can earn real money selling the pieces you're ready to part with. Reaching more than 80 million users on the platform. New deals and styles are listed every day, so don't wait. Download the Poshmark app and use code V I A L L 10 when you sign up to get $10 off your first purchase or shop now at poshmark.com V I A L L 10 and get $10 off your first purchase. That's P O S H-M-A-R-K.com V I A L L 10 and we're back with the Age of Attraction reunion.

[Nick Viall]

Well, Vannel and Jorge bonded over a shared love of God and a deep desire for commitment.

[Host/Narrator]

But with their 33 year age gap and different feelings about communication, temperament and

[Nick Viall]

boundaries soon came to light.

[Host/Narrator]

Sadly, these struggles in their relationship forced

[Nick Viall]

it to an abrupt and disappointing halt. So how are you two doing today?

[Jorge]

I'm fine.

[Derek]

Okay.

[Jorge]

And we're cool. All right. Got no. I still have love for her. I mean, for me personally, I think and I will always think Vanilla's an amazing, beautiful woman and I think the world of her and she knows that. We talked after the show and I have Nothing but love for her.

[Natalie Joy]

Oh, you did. So y' all had a moment after the show.

[Jorge]

Mm.

[Natalie Joy]

And whose decision was that? Who reached out?

[Jorge]

Vinnell reached out to me.

[Natalie Joy]

Okay. What was that feeling of wanting to reach out to him?

[Vanelle]

I think after, like, leaving the show and, like, coming back to real life, it was just kind of, like, weird to just act like, you know, that whole connection, like, didn't exist, like, that I just didn't know that person. So I reached out and, you know, I missed him. I wanted to, you know, try to see if we can, like, try to make it work.

[Host/Narrator]

And, yeah, it was very disappointing to

[Nick Viall]

see you guys break up, because at the time, I know you guys were very excited about each other. Certainly you, Vanel had a lot of hope and optimism about the potential. Where do you think ultimately things went wrong?

[Vanelle]

Um, I think, for me, like, we weren't aligned on my abstinence. Our communication was definitely a huge factor. Um, yeah, I think mainly those two things, but mainly the communication.

[Nick Viall]

And what do you mean by the abstinence side of things?

[Vanelle]

Um, I think you can see on the show, it kind of just was blurred a little bit. Like, obviously, Jorge was a little bit confused on, like, where the abstinence, you know, lied because of the romantic moments we had and stuff. And we didn't really, like, have, like, deeper conversations about that and, like, what those boundaries were, I guess, looking back,

[Nick Viall]

you know, because a lot of that. A lot of that moment was about you telling Jorge that you were celibate and just hoping that, you know, you would get as obviously as you would hope to get. Like, I want to respect that. I want to support that. And it didn't seem like, again, Jorge, you really understood what she meant by celibate, or maybe you had some of your own assumptions and that seemed to lead to some communication problems.

[Jorge]

No, actually, I think so. I like the fact that she said abstinent, because it's not celibate, it's abstinent. But I did not have a problem. So one of the things is this. My connection with Vanel was very real, very serious, as I've told y'. All. And I was very protective of her. And when I say protective of her, not only protective of her from the outside, but protective of her from me. I'm not going to do anything to try to offend or hurt her. And everything I did, in every way, I tried to handle it. I tried to handle it with care as best I could so that she understood. And I understood that when she said it, when we first talked and she said it. So then my thoughts went to, okay, well, Vancouver, we gonna do a lot of talking. Cause we ain't doing nothing else. But like she said, some of the romantic moments confused it for me. And I think when I look back at it, I always say, when you. Communication is key. For me, communication is everything. You're hearing me say it over and over again. Because as in my profession as lawyer, most times people misunderstand each other and they don't. They'll be talking apples and oranges and they go apart because they never really understood. And I think that that happened with Fennell and I, because honestly, if you look at it, she was saying, she kept asking me, what do you think about it? And I kept telling her, I don't know. And I think that set her off because it made her think that, well, no, that's not acceptable. And so when I look back at it, I said, you know what? It wasn't her, it was me on the communication tip, because I should have said, well, listen. And I. And when we were talking, I wanted her to say, see, everybody in Vancouver was, I don't know. Because I don't know, man. I don't know if we're going to be together. I don't know if we're going to continue in a relationship. I don't know. There's a bunch of I don't knows. So the way I felt about it was, well, first off, I'm a little confused. I always think that as a man, I need to step forward and say, okay, so what does actually your abstinence mean? Like, give me a blueprint. And I didn't do that. You know, I assumed that when she said abstinent, it meant nothing. And so then when we do stuff, I'm like, okay, this is not abstinence. So maybe it's negotiable. Maybe it's something you're struggling with. So that would be. I'll take the brunt for that because I don't believe in. I'm not big into pointing figures at yours. You, let's look at it collectively and see what we can do to better communicate. And I think, as I said then, it was a communication thing and it could have been improved. And I always take my responsibility.

[Nick Viall]

I'm curious, Vanel. Obviously, in today's culture, hookup culture is pretty prevalent. It obviously, as you expressed, has been a challenge for you dating. Has your relationship with Jorge and how things unfolded, has it given you a different perspective of how you communicate? Your celibacy going forward.

[Vanelle]

Yeah, definitely. And I think, like, coming into this experience, like, outside of this, like, dating, situations like this have been easier for me to avoid. Like, I'm not, you know, I've never lived with a guy before. I'm not putting myself in these types of temptations. But, you know, coming to this experience, I really wanted to fully give myself into this process and really see where it goes. With Jorge, I was literally, like, obsessed with him. So, yeah, there are times when I'm literally living with someone that I had an extremely strong emotional connection to, also really physically attracted to. So, yeah, like, you know, there are times when maybe I fell short a little bit, but maybe going forward, just be a little bit more, like, you know, stern about my boundaries. But like I said, on the outside world, I'm not putting myself in situations like this.

[Natalie Joy]

Okay. There was also a big moment throughout that that I think might have been right before your breakup, the something happened on the streets of Vancouver. Fennell, I'd like to kind of have you clear that whole situation up and get into kind of the details of it all, just because the show didn't. So can you tell us what happened in that?

[Vanelle]

Yeah, I mean, I guess Jorge can say his part, too, but from my experience, I thought there was just, like, a random guy on the street just yelling over, like, yo, you talking, blah, blah. And obviously, like, Jorge turns around and is like, oh, like, mind your business or whatever. And then they're both going at it, and it comes to a point where, you know, the guy's walking behind us, he has his skateboard in his hand, and, you know, him and Jorge are still, like, you know, going back and forth about it, and it starts to get to a point where it gets escalated. And, you know, Jorge, they're talking about fighting each other. And I think for me, in that moment, I think that was my first time seeing Jorge. Seeing Jorge, like, upset, like, I saw, like, a different side to him, and it just, you know, it was. It was different for me, and I.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, what about that? Because we had an opportunity to talk with you prior to now, and I think it's an interesting conversation. Right. Because on one end, I think as guys, we want to protect our ladies, we want to be there for them. I feel like my wife expects that of me as well. But there are also situations where it's, like, you use the phrase, I wanted to diffuse the situation. And then the question is, how do you go about diffusing the situation? When we talked to you before, you suggested that when the Things first happened, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong, that you felt like Jorge could have done something different to diffuse the situation. And in fact, you almost felt like he escalated it to a point. Can you elaborate on that?

[Vanelle]

Yeah, I definitely still feel that way. I feel like at that point when they were just still arguing with each other, I felt like we could have maybe just, like, ignored that person and kept walking. I felt like it didn't need to get to a point where they're both wanting to, like, be physical with each other. Also, for me, like, I was uncomfortable in that moment because, you know, this person could have had, like, a gun, could have had a knife, could have done something. But also, it was just, like, a random person, right? Like, that's not someone we knew. So it could have been avoided, in my opinion.

[Natalie Joy]

And he was yelling from afar at y' all to start.

[Jorge]

No, absolutely not.

[Vanelle]

How.

[Nick Viall]

And I love to hear so.

[Jorge]

Well, one. I mean, when Vanilla first called me, that's why I'm a little surprised, what you just said, because she said when we first talked, she said, I understood you were protecting me after talking to my mother and her friend, but so the situation, it's still clear in my mind. I don't forget that kind of stuff. And one of the things I said to Vanilla is, have you been. Are you. I've been in the streets. I've come from the hood, so I know a situation when I see one. And what happened is, so we're standing, waiting for the light to change, and actually, we're joking. And so I said something to her, like, you crazy girl. So we're laughing, and this guy comes up and says, what the fuck did you say to me? So first off, you're behind my woman, right? And you're saying that to me. So what I said to him was, first of all, I'm talking to her. Second of all, you better watch how you talk to me. And I made it very clear, because I'm not. There's not. I've never known any time when I've been on the streets that that someone who poses a threat goes away by saying, can you please leave us alone? No, that's not gonna happen. So I wanted to let him know I'm not having that. So when I said that, he said, yeah, that's what I thought. That's what he. Keep talking. He keeps talking. Okay, that could have arrested. The light turns. So we get ready to walk across the street as we're walking. Vanell is behind me, which is a problem for me, right? He's behind her with his skateboard. So that's what I'm like, oh, no, he's not. I'm not gonna take a chance with this man hitting her over there. It's not gonna happen. And he kept walking. So I said, vanel, go in front of me, right? And then I turned, I said, I'm gonna tell you one time and one time only, walk away. And he's like, yeah, yeah, whatever. I said. And I ain't gonna lie. I said, I will bust your ass. I'm not playing with you. And I wasn't. I'm not. I'm the one thing you can. I don't mind taking responsibility. I'm going to defend my woman or any woman in my life, period. I don't. It's not, there's no. It's non negotiable. So I told him that. And so then when he said something else, I just stepped towards him and then he walked away. That was the end of it. Because I want him to know I'm not, I'm not playing with you now. Could have had a gun, could have had a knife, could have got hit by a car.

[Derek]

I don't care.

[Jorge]

I'm not gonna let you pose a threat to my woman, period. What you and I deal with, so be it. But you're not gonna pose a threat to my woman, period.

[Nick Viall]

Van Allen.

[Vanelle]

Yeah, but I don't think I would say that guy was directly behind me. Like there was a good amount of distance between us when we were walking.

[Jorge]

I think we see it differently. I think we see it differently. I think that I'm pretty well aware of where I saw him and pretty well aware of what he had in his hand. I don't think anyone would think, as an attorney, I know, come on. I'm not gonna just go around, hey, let me start a fight with this random guy. No, I don't care about that. I don't care about that. What I care about is if my woman isn't. If you pose a threat to her, then you put. I'm gonna take care of that. That's just the way I felt. With that said, I understand if she felt uncomfortable and that doesn't work for her, then I respect that, no problem. But what I said to her on the Show, I stand 10 toes down. I'm gonna do it every time in every situation. If we walk outta here today and we're all walking together and some man poses a threat I'm gonna step to him, period.

[Nick Viall]

I am curious, like, just opening it up to the group. I imagine this is a fairly relatable topic for both men and women in relationships. And there seems to be kind of a gray area of like, hey, do I need the protection in this moment? Or are you puffing your chest and showing off? You know? Or are you. Are you diffusing the situation in the best possible way? Because it seems to be, like, almost a lot of gray area, and I'm just kind of curious what any of you have to say about it.

[Derek]

Yeah, I mean, for me, I think, as a man, you're just protected by nature. You should be. And if you're with your partner and someone poses a threat, whether you know what they have or don't, you're gonna make sure your person is protected. And I get. Coming from different backgrounds, Jorge and I have a similar one. And so, for me, like, I relate to it. Like, if someone's out of pocket and you're right, you don't know if they have a knife or a gun or anything like that. But I'm not gonna let you walk behind me, because I don't know if you have something on you. Right. And. And if you back down, typically in those situations, they do actually continue to get aggressive. So you have to address the situation and say, hey, you gotta go that way, or it's a problem. And typically, a lot of times, like, it happened with them, they'll just walk away. So for me, like, I. I'm the same way. If I'm with my partner, anyone that I'm protective of, and someone's making us feel uncomfortable, I'm going to get rid of the situation.

[Nick Viall]

Teresa, I feel like you have a lot of.

[Host/Narrator]

You're listening intently.

[Nick Viall]

I can hear your. I can see your brain.

[Teresa]

I want to ask you, but I

[Vanelle]

just feel like I understand that if that person was right next to us, there was a distance between us in the beginning.

[Derek]

Clarify distance for people. Like, was close to, like, from you to Natalie and now you to Nick. Like, how. Because everyone's. I feel like this distance is, like, a thing. Like, how close was the guy?

[Vanelle]

I would say, like, a distance from, like, here to, like, over there. Like, we were walking. That guy was walking.

[Derek]

He was far.

[Vanelle]

It was a distance.

[Derek]

But for you, how far was this man?

[Jorge]

That is absolutely. So we were.

[Vanelle]

She's the one who didn't leave her.

[Jorge]

I'm just gonna tell you this.

[Teresa]

I think she. Her opinion matters just as much as everybody else.

[Jorge]

We were stopped at A light.

[Derek]

I understand.

[Jorge]

So means we were waiting to walk across the street.

[Vanelle]

He wasn't right behind, he was walking.

[Jorge]

So he came up. We're standing. He comes up.

[Derek]

So he's by the lamp right now. That's close to the side.

[Jorge]

No, he comes up from behind and he comes. So if Vanilla's here, he comes closer than that and says something to me. Now we had wrangler and said same thing, you need to get to step. And he said that to him. So when he comes up, if he's back there, why do I care? I don't care if you're back there and you're just yelling insults. But if you're here, that's a threat. Listen, people can. I'm just gonna tell you what I saw and what I know. And it's like as if yesterday. I don't forget that type of stuff,

[Nick Viall]

you know, Obviously you guys aren't together. It doesn't seem like there's going to be a reconciliation. But how did you try?

[Derek]

I mean, they said they cool. Remember? We forgot they said they.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, listen, is there a chance you guys could get back together?

[Vanelle]

Let's go on

[Derek]

keep escape.

[Nick Viall]

But I am just curious and like, how are you question to both of you? Like in a future situation where clearly you guys see this differently. I think we can agree on that, that we're agreeing to disagree. But in those situations that all couples have, how are you guys going to work through those relationships as opposed to just getting up and quitting?

[Jorge]

I'm not. That's. I mean, the athlete in me, I don't quit. I don't quit at anything. I'm gonna work through it. Part of it to me, like I said, I always keep going back to communication.

[Logan]

Communication.

[Jorge]

Because I think that if we understand, then it's like I was telling the guys, I said, if you're in a relationship with a woman and you and her say, we're on the same team, right? So we're never against each other. So then that means that no matter what happens, if someone feels disrespect, if someone feels misunderstood, instead of going, coming and going against each other, why not give the benefit of the doubt and say, what did you mean by what you just did? Or what you just said? Because it made me feel this way. And then it gives me the opportunity to say, nah, that's not what I meant at all. And I think what. What I like when I said earlier about things you learn from relationships, when I was younger, it would just be a person yelling their Opinion. And so to me, like I had told Vinnell, in the Bible, it says, a fool delights in airing his own opinions. A wise man seeks to get an understanding. So rather than yelling back and forth. No, I learned from Young that. Okay, no, you know what? I'm going to listen to you. I'm going to let you talk until you're done talking, and then I'm going to say, are you done? And then I want to respond to you so that you know that I heard you and I'm responding to you. But if it doesn't work, it doesn't. And so. But when I. If it fails, I don't go, oh, she just crazy. No, I go, okay, so how could I handle it better? Is there something I could have said differently? Because going forth, if I'm gonna go further in a relationship, I don't want that to happen again.

[Natalie Joy]

Vannel, did you feel like he listened and then responded in Yalls communication?

[Vanelle]

I feel like when we had the conversation, I think in that moment, we both were a little bit more, like, heightened, and neither of us were really, truly, like, listening to one another or trying to understand each other. I think at that point it was more so just. Or at least like neither of us were, like, resolution focused. I don't think you said that you

[Natalie Joy]

felt like Jorge talked at you and not with you. Do you still feel that way, like, now present, like, looking back at those conversations?

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Or watching it.

[Vanelle]

But yeah. Yeah, during those conversations? I think so. Right. Cause I think, you know, he was using words like, I have, you know, experience in this, and I've been, you know, through this, and I'm from here. And in those moments, I felt like he was talking at me.

[Nick Viall]

During the show, you had mentioned that your family, or specifically your parents didn't want you date anyone older than 40.

[Natalie Joy]

10 years.

[Vanelle]

10 years old.

[Nick Viall]

10 years older or something like that. What was it about Jorge and your relationship that made you so willing to ignore that after learning about his age?

[Vanelle]

I think at that point I was already obsessed with him. So the age, like, literally did not matter to me at that point. I was like, he could be 80 years old and I'd still be with him.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, you clearly had those strong feelings, which I think is what makes us so sad that it didn't work out. But what were some of the things that he brought to this relationship that was different for you?

[Vanelle]

Yeah, contrary to belief, I liked how dominant Jorge. I liked how dominant Jorge was. And also, like, behind closed doors, he was just so sweet to like, all the girls, too, always, like, checking up on everyone, making sure everyone's good. Always the person that all the guys would come to talk to. When I would, like, talk to the girls about him, they all had great things to say, and I really like that. And like he said, he was very protected over me, and I felt safe with him at the time. And I could tell that Jorge wasn't someone that lets his guard down easily and opens up easily. And he did that with me. So, yeah, I looked those clothes about him.

[Natalie Joy]

Is there a part of you that regrets walking away that day?

[Vanelle]

Um, I wouldn't say I regret walking away, but I think that day, if I could have communicated better that day. Yeah, for sure.

[Nick Viall]

Is there any chance that you guys reconsider this relationship? You know, you're seeing each other, you know, guys are looking great. Is there anything you guys want to say to each other?

[Jorge]

I think that the connection. I don't. There's no way in the world you can say that the connection isn't gonna always be that. I don't believe that. I don't believe that. So when I saw Vanell, it's the same feelings that came right back up. I mean, I felt once again protective of her. I felt. And which is, for me is weird because normally when I meet a woman, it's like I'm processing information, like, to try to project how you will be with Vanel. It was like, yeah, I kind of. It's kind of like, you know, something about her, so. And it was different. And I stepped out of my comfort zone, and there were things different that Vanilla and I didn't have in common that I overlooked because I was like, I like her, so. But in reference to your question, you never know. I never say never because, you know, you never know what happens. We saw each other, we hugged, we had some, uh. Oh, you know, and so. But, you know.

[Nick Viall]

But do you know,

[Jorge]

that being said, that being said, that being said, I feel like this. At the very least, we're friends for life. I told her there's never a time if she ever needs to call me, I got her. If she ever needs anything, I got her. Like, it's the same way. And even though she doesn't remember Vancouver very well, as far as me protecting her, I'm still gonna protect you. I'm just playing, you know, I'm kidding. But I love her.

[Natalie Joy]

Is there anything you want to say to Jorge?

[Vanelle]

No, I think I feel the same. Like, I always have love for Jorge. I'll always cherish you. Know this experience we had together. Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

I do want to give you an opportunity to address any feelings you might have about the questions that people are having about when you chose to communicate to Vanilla that you had children.

[Jorge]

Oh, thank you so much, because I absolutely hate that shit. I am very, very proud of my children. I speak about them all the time. It's not something that I would hide from anyone. And I did not want to hide it from her. And it wasn't hidden from her. And if I would have followed my gut, and I'm just gonna say I wanted to tell her in the third date, and that's what I. What my plan was, but I couldn't. If I would have followed my. The way I believed, I should have told her right then. The thing about it is how I justified it in my mind was I'm not gonna lie to her. So when she said that question, I said, so you want kids? I'm not gonna lie. So for all you people out there saying, oh, he lied. I did not lie to her. But that is something that I take very serious. And when I shared it with her and Vanill said to me, so listen, where I'm at is if my man wants children, then I'm down to have it, but if he doesn't, then I don't care. So I think both of us are aligned with that. Because my thing is people. I've read people. Oh, you're six of you gonna have kids, man. Al Pacino had kids. Shut up. So I feel like that would be something we determined if we stayed together. But I was definitely not hiding my kids. That was never something I would do. I think all of the men on here were all proud of our children. And I appreciate you for allowing me to address it.

[Nick Viall]

I think it's obvious that you're proud of your kids. I think just what's interesting, because so much of your guys relationship is about the communication or where you guys struggled, it's interesting to hear how mentally you had told yourself, I want to tell her on the third date. I want to tell her on the third date. And we had an opportunity to watch the promise room of U2. And when it all went down, Vanel was like, I don't even know if you have kids or if you want kids. And she asked two questions back to back. You answered the second question, and it's just kind of fascinating. I wonder if you reflect on that, that mentally you were like, I want to tell her on the third date. And then you had this expectation or this question that you asked. And then all of a sudden she's like, he doesn't have kids. And you're like, oh, she's not worried about that. Do you think sometimes being kind of like that strong minded person, that strong willed person, where like you're actually not listening to your partner as much as you think you are because, like, she asked the question and you were so, like committed to telling her on the third date rather than when she asked about it?

[Jorge]

No, I think it's a more stubborn side of me. It didn't have to do with vanilla, was the fact that, okay, I wanted to tell her a third date and it was prevented. So you're not going to tell me when? I'm going to tell her when. No one's going to tell me unless Christ comes down. That's the only person who's going to tell me, hey, you need to do this and I'll do it. So if you tell me I have to do something, I'm going to tell her when I feel it's best. So. But in hindsight, because of the way it looked, the optics of it, I would go back and say, right in the Promise from Teller, right then, because I didn't believe going into the Promise room as much as I. And I'll give you something that no one knew. Like, I turned 60 down in Whistler, so I was 59. I did not want to say 60. I was like, that sounds old as fuck. 59 sounds better. I'm not fucking saying 60. And they were like, you're 60. And so I had to. And one of the things that I have struggled with, part of the reason I even came on the show is because I've never believed that age is a factor. And for me, I was age conscious because when people ask me my age, I'm like, how old do I look? 40. Are you right? You're right.

[Derek]

40. Okay, relax, please.

[Jorge]

Watch yourself now. Don't make me come for you.

[Derek]

So, but.

[Jorge]

So I just felt like that was something that used to always bother me. But like one of the things when you just asked me, yes, if I had to do it all over again, I would definitely do it different. But the stubborn side of me was like, nah, I'm gonna tell her when I tell her. And that didn't have to do with Vanille, but. So, yeah, okay, I made a mistake.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, I'm glad we got there. Question for both Jorge and Vannel, but I want to start with you, Vannel, with this show being about, does age really matter when it Comes to love. Vannel, last time we spoke with you and talked about your breakup with Jorge, you were pretty strong by saying, actually, I think our age difference ended up playing a role in our relationship ending. As you sit here today after seeing Jorge, do you still feel that way?

[Vanelle]

I would say so, yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Vanelle]

But also, a lot of the things that played a role in us not working out was just our communication.

[Nick Viall]

What part of the age difference played a role in the breakup?

[Vanelle]

I would say, like what I said earlier, the part of when I felt like he was talking at me or maybe the way we were understanding each other.

[Vanessa]

Okay.

[Vanelle]

Yeah.

[Jorge]

Okay.

[Nick Viall]

Jorge, how do you feel about that?

[Jorge]

I don't think that's an age thing. I think that's once again a communication style. And you've asked me before, you asked me if that has come up before. And I think that just the nature of my profession, sometimes I can be interrogating folks or cross examining. So I have to always check that. And so if ever my partner says, well, I don't feel like you're talking to me, I feel like you're talking at me, then that means I have to pivot and change the way I do it so that they don't feel that way. One of the things I share with Vanel was if I had to do it all over again, it should have been a stop and say, okay, what works for you, communication wise and what works for me, because me, I'm gonna be defensive if you come at me like that and what's worked for you so that we understand that. And I think it would have made it a little bit more easy. So if she felt that way. I think that anytime you're dealing in a relationship, as a man with a woman, you have to be open to their feelings. And their feelings are 100%. There's no. You can't say, oh, your feelings aren't valid. No, your feelings are always valid. So then if she says, well, I feel like you're talking at me. That wasn't said in Vancouver, but she said that's how she felt later. But if you tell me, I feel like you're talking at me, well, then I'm gonna stop and pivot and say, okay, my bad. Let me address you a different way.

[Nick Viall]

Is it hard to hear that Vannel feels that your age played a role in it?

[Jorge]

No, because I don't think it did. And I'm not worried about that.

[Derek]

Okay.

[Jorge]

Vanel loves me, man. What you saying?

[Nick Viall]

Well, before we move on, do either of you have anything you want to say to one another.

[Jorge]

I say that, Vanelle, you know, that our connection is dope and deep, and we have very strong feelings for each other. And I'm never gonna say never. Cause you never know what might happen. And you and I know, just every time we even be in the hallway, we're like, well, you know, so I'll leave that open. I'll leave that as a chapter open and as a book open. But, you know, my feelings are extremely strong for you. And, you know, our connection is on another level.

[Nick Viall]

It is hot in here, you know?

[Teresa]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Do you need a fan?

[Vanessa]

I got you, baby girl.

[Jorge]

Oh, my God.

[Vanelle]

No, I'm good. I mean, I would say I agree with, you know, what you said. Like, you know, the connections I had for you are really real and deep. And connection like that doesn't just, you know, go away that fast, that quickly. Like, I literally. In my mind, you were literally like my husband. Like, there is nothing else, you know? But, yeah, I don't know.

[Nick Viall]

Well, if you ask her out on a date, just let us know. You know what I'm saying?

[Jorge]

I'll text you. I'll text you. But, you know, one thing I just said to her, I don't want to belabor the point, but I said to her that I think a lot of times people act as love, as being in love is a right, and it's not. It's a privilege. Because that's why three quarters of the world are lonely. So whenever you get the opportunity to have a deep connection with someone, you got to make sure that you exhaust every possibility.

[Natalie Joy]

Due to Derek's incredible skincare routine,

[Libby]

he

[Natalie Joy]

and Pfeiffer may not have looked it, but they were, in fact, 20 years apart in age. While they ended the journey with supportive parents and a commitment of staying together, life off camera pulled them in different directions. Unfortunately, Pfeiffer is celebrating her birthday in Japan and is sad to not be here. But, Derek, can you explain what happened post filming?

[Derek]

Yeah, I think some of the things that showed up while filming, some of the questions she had or some of the concerns about her moving, you know, across the country and giving up her life, friends and all that, I think, honestly, I mean, looking at it now, I think that just. It was just too big. It was too much when she got back to her normal life outside of the bubble, you know, I think that there was probably some influences there, you know?

[Nick Viall]

What do you mean by that?

[Derek]

I. Well, obviously there's an age gap, so her friends are probably, for the most part, much Younger than me.

[Jorge]

Right.

[Derek]

And probably not married, probably single. So whether, you know, the conversations she's having are influenced by a little bit of them being selfish because they don't want to lose their friend. And it's probably something that they haven't, you know, experienced yet. And I get it, like, looking at it, like, wow, you went away and you found this guy and you're gonna pick up and move your entire life for just him? That doesn't make any sense. That's crazy. And so I understand where she probably was influenced, and I was concerned about it, you know, and that was one of the things when we talked in Vancouver, I tried to address it as much as possible, but there was also this. Pfeiffer was a bit reserved with it. Like, she just was like, I want to be present in the moment. I don't want to think about that. And for me, it was like, well, I mean, we have to think about it.

[Nick Viall]

Do you think Pfeiffer painted an accurate picture of what her life in lifestyle was back at home while you were dating?

[Derek]

That sounds good.

[Jorge]

Why you laughing, Derek?

[Derek]

Oh, man. To a certain degree, I think.

[Nick Viall]

What about to the degree that maybe she didn't?

[Derek]

So, yeah, I think that her living with her roommates probably, like, college campus, sorority girl style.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, I'll ask you straight, like you told me offline. I would love to hear you tell the story about how you found out where she lives.

[John]

Wow.

[Derek]

All right, so it is what it is. Let's go. After she came to Dallas, obviously we broke up a few weeks after that, and, you know, we had a conversation. She sent me a message. I left some things there, so can you mail them to me? And I'm like, yeah. And the way I am. She sent the message, and I, like, packed them up within 15 minutes. I'm like, whatever. I don't want to think about it. But I looked at her address, and you know how you can satellite look in other girls sounds probably. I'm not psychotic at all. It just happened. I'm just, you know, just curious. Just curious. There's nothing wrong with.

[Jorge]

Nothing wrong with being a little bit intrusive.

[Teresa]

I would do the same thing.

[Derek]

I'm, like, looking, and it's like, I always do. Yeah. So I. I zoomed in, and it was like fraternity and sorority houses, like, on the same block. And then I was able to piece together, like, oh, she did say she lived with, you know, more than a normal amount of roommates. Okay, right. So, like. Okay, so she probably lived in a sorority House. And yeah. Looking at it, I'm like, well, shit. Like, that's something that I probably needed to know.

[Jorge]

Yeah.

[Derek]

Because I can tailor as much as I can, I can tailor my conversation to like, this is probably what you're gonna get. Like, this is gonna seem insane. Like you're basically still living like a college life, you know, and now you're essentially, you're going to go be with a man that's taking care of a five year old. You know, that that's a lot.

[Nick Viall]

So do you know, is she still in school or just living that lifestyle?

[Libby]

I don't think you can't live in a sorority house if you're not still in school. So in Pfeiffer's defense, she's not living in a sorority house. I think she just has maybe roommates that were friends from a sorority. But I don't think she's still in school.

[Teresa]

She's graduated.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Derek]

Yeah, she's not still in school. I know that. So, yeah.

[Natalie Joy]

And were there ever conversations about you going to stay with her and visit her in Seattle?

[Derek]

Yeah, when she was in Dallas, we talked about me coming and visiting and she just, you know, was pretty, you know, adamant. Like, hey, I'd rather skip like a hotel. I mean, I stay with her and. Which I wasn't. I mean, I'm 40, 43 at the time, 44. I'm like, yeah. I mean, I'm a grown man. Like, I'm not going to burden your, you know, your roommates. I get it. I want to be totally respectful of their space as well. So I'll make sure that we're good and I'll get us a place. So she had, you know, some reservations. I probably should have asked deeper questions then, like, okay, I get it. And I'll definitely make sure that that's taken care of. And everyone's, everyone's happy with, you know, and I don't want to inconvenience them. But the fact that you're randomly bringing it up, like, is there something else that you're thinking about deeper? And I feel like that was just, you know, a part of it. Like the list of things that were probably just racing through our mind.

[Nick Viall]

How long did you guys date for post filming?

[Derek]

A month.

[Nick Viall]

A month.

[Derek]

It was a month. Yeah. So, yeah, she came to Dallas about a week and a half later for my birthday. And I mean, things were great. You know, we had a great time with some of my friends and family and she met my mom and my mom's husband as well.

[Nick Viall]

Did she Ever have a chance to meet your kids?

[Derek]

No. No. For me, the way I was looking at that, the next three months, you know, even some of my friends, they. I mean, my friends had questions, too. Like, I'm not. I don't want to just sound like it's totally on Fifer. Like, it was definitely question marks as to how this looks. And I just told them, like, let's just see what the next three months looks like. Because that was living in a bubble. Now we live across the country. And so this is a whole new phase of dating that we're about to go through and experience and see, you know, do we like talking on the phone? Do we like facetiming, like, all those things? Do we stay connected that way, or are we just seeing each other once a month or, you know, like, it was a lot that was unanswered that I wanted to see before ever going down that path. And for me, meeting my kids is. I always allow the mothers first. Like, hey, we'll sit down and have a conversation with the person I'm dating, just out of respect for you. And that's always worked. I haven't had people meet. My oldest has met, you know, two girlfriends. Dominic, you know, he hasn't. He's met one. And so I'm extremely protective of that because, as Andrew said earlier, I don't want to set, you know, that culture, like in our household that, yeah, dad's with this lady and, okay, she's gone. And here's another one.

[Natalie Joy]

So during filming, when you met her parents, she seemed visibly nervous. She was very uncomfortable, very anxious. You tried to scoot her close to you, console her. She actually scooted further away from you.

[Andrew]

Get away from me, bro.

[Derek]

Get away from me.

[John]

Yeah.

[Natalie Joy]

What were your feelings then and watching it back? Are they the same or have they changed?

[Derek]

Well, I mean, watching it back, because I was there with her, and I know what the night before looked like and how nervous she was. And I always try to take into consideration my age, and I know that I'm feeling okay. She's 23 years old. Right. And her relationship with her parents is a lot different than my relationship with my parents. Right. So I understand the concerns. You're still getting to know me and trying to have that conversation, and you may have unanswered things about just your life that you may not have talked to your parents about at that age. Right. So you're going to present this new relationship. How are my parents going to receive it? How. What are they going to say to him? You know, and how is it going to influence me? Because I think at that age, you're probably still, you know, depending on the circumstance of growing up, you're probably still pretty connected and influenced by your parents to a certain degree. So I think that she may have had some concerns there.

[Nick Viall]

You know, every relationship that ends doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't beneficial to us or that we couldn't learn something from it. And I thought it was really interesting watching it back. Pfeiffer referenced multiple times, previous relationships and toxic boyfriends. From what we've learned of you, Derek, you seem like a pretty solid standup guy. Thank you. And I'm just curious, as you reflect on a relationship that didn't work out, what role do you feel like Pfeiffer played in your life and what did you learn from that relationship?

[Derek]

Right. I completely agree. I think that, as Jorge said, every relationship, it's not that it's a bad relationship, it's a learning experience. I'm so grateful and appreciative for that relationship. I have so much respect for Pfeiffer. She's aged beyond her years. And that's probably the only time I can say honestly in my life that I've had a breakup that wasn't toxic, it wasn't a problem. It was understanding on my part. I've always felt that her heart is pure, and I know that it is. So I don't think that this was something. It didn't come from a place of, like, she was hiding it. It was like, this is just pure the way it is. She can't deal with it anymore. And knowing her heart, I wasn't going to push her in any direction. I just wanted to be respectful of that. But our relationship, I learned so much. As far as being open, I don't think that I've been open in probably like that, probably like a decade before. And I came into the experience wanting to be open to finding my person and knowing that it may not look like, you know, what I typically date, because obviously that wasn't working. So she was so different from me, you know, And I saw, like, I'm really big on a person's heart and their intentions and they were just so pure, you know, our conversations. If there was something that I. That she wasn't comfortable with, she had. She had one time when we had. It was off camera, the conversation about her moving, when she was extremely uncomfortable about it. And it was before the dinner with you guys. We had a really rough go for about two or three hours, which Was crazy because it was, like, smooth selling. Guys almost made fun of us because it was like, y' all are living in this bubble inside of a bubble, like, they don't have any problems. So it was getting close to the end, and now we have this problem. And I'm sitting in the bathroom for, like, 45 minutes, and she's in the other room, and we're not talking. And I'm like, what the fuck's going on? Like, we're, you know. And then I go to the weight room, and Logan sees me, and he's like. He's, like, halfway happy that I actually have a problem. He's like, finally, bro, you got some. A problem. Like, I'm, like, just sitting there, Christmas napping. Make a benchmapping, make a bend asleep. But my. I would say a good or a bad trait that I've had in the past, when that happens, I'll shut down a little bit and it takes me some time, and I'll walk away. I was so proud of her, her maturity. I came back into the apartment. She said, hey, can we sit down and talk? And she was so vulnerable and open. She was like, look, I want to move to Dallas. I'm going to move to Dallas. I'm just scared. Like, that's what's going on.

[Jorge]

Yeah.

[Derek]

And so, you know, that was such a powerful moment for me to take. Like, damn. Like, you know, at this. At her age, she took control of that situation, an area that I've been weak. She's able to help me get through.

[Nick Viall]

I'm really curious. You guys clearly had a great connection. I think the chemistry was off the charts. Clearly, you know, you're talking about moments that Pfeiffer showed this maturity that surprised you. And I think when, again, you're the older person, you're trying not to, like, quiz the person about, like, how mature they are or aren't. And yet Pfeiffer showed you these moments of maturity. And again, this is not like a rip on Pfeiffer, but I think it sounds like you came to learn that, like, once she got outside of this bubble and got back to her life, she made me realize that, like, you know, what age is playing a role in why this relationship can't work out. I'm not ready for what Derek has or his lifestyle.

[Derek]

Yeah, I agree. I think when you're in the bubble, like, I think she was completely ingrained in the experience. And even when I first brought up my kids, like, the night before, I was, like, freaking out to talk about it. Because for me, I know how. I know the severity of it. Right. That's so serious. And she took it so easy. So it was like, maybe she was going with the flow because she hasn't been in that situation before. Right. So it was like, yeah, it's cool. We'll figure it out. Yes, it's cool. But for me, those steps were, like, monumental. Like, I'm like, this is huge. And as far as if we can continue or, you know, we decide like this. This does not work for me, then I was like, so, like, I was grateful for the way that she took, like, the things that are flawed about me or the responsibilities that I have and all that in that moment. But I think getting back home, you know, she had those influences, and that's fair. Right. She's 23 years old. You're going to be influenced by your circle that you're around.

[Nick Viall]

Are you more, less likely, or about the same? Your willingness to date someone younger than you?

[Derek]

No, I'm. I would say I'm about the same.

[Teresa]

Okay.

[Jorge]

If.

[Nick Viall]

Let's say you meet someone, they're younger than you. I'm curious how, going forward, will you protect yourself and your heart from the same thing ending up? Because a lot of people have bad partners. Pfeiffer talked about a bad ex. And it wouldn't be surprising to me that you meet someone younger than you and they're like, oh, this Derek, he's a great guy. You know, there's a lot of reasons why you seem appealing, but how will you protect yourself from meeting someone like Pfeiffer? Which, again, no disrespect, you know, talks about when she gets older, like, you seem like a great guy, but maybe just isn't in the place in her life to actually meet you.

[Derek]

Where you're at, I think having deeper conversations, like, some of those things that I may have, like, touched on and. Whereas Pfeiffer was like, I don't really want to go there, but I think that's a big part of it. Like, you know what? I'mma have to make you uncomfortable right now because this is actually where I'm at in life. And not that you have to have the perfect response, but I need you to get the entire picture right and see how you. And see what the response is and see what the outcome is from there. And I think that's probably an area that I could say, you know, I can improve on.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Derek]

From that relationship.

[Nick Viall]

It's tough. Yeah. Because there is that moment where you guys were talking about moving you Know, and I've said this many times as I've gotten older, I realized that my 20s were me living up to the expectations I had when I was like. Like a teenager, right? And you're like, this is how I had planned. This is what I had planned. And I remember hearing Pfeiffer saying things like, I made this promise to myself. I promised this to myself. And you're on the other end being like, listen, we'll just play figure it out as we go. Looking back, do you see that as a sign of maybe this kind of the gap between your maturity levels?

[Derek]

Yes, I do. On the front end. When she explained that she moved away for college, she went back home for a while and then moved again. So I took it or moved across the country to go to finish up school in Seattle. I took that as, you know what? She's had these experiences, and she's kind of been on her own. So she does understand that it can be rocky, but you can still make it, right? And in that moment when she had that conversation, I was, like, trying to get her to lean on her previous experiences, right? Because I know that I can't push mine on her and say, hey, is this gonna be all right? It's just gonna be all right. Just trust me. I was just, you know, trying to convey, like, look, you've been down this road before. Yes, it looks very different, but you've been uncomfortable. And it doesn't mean that you can't grow, and it doesn't mean that we can't grow.

[Natalie Joy]

What does your dating life look like today?

[Derek]

I'm single. I. I took some time, and I. I mean, like I said, I put a lot into that, into the entire experience. It just took a lot for me to. To go through it. And being that open for me is just not that easy to just turn around and do that again. So I would much rather take my time, you know, and make sure that I'm ready so I can show up for a person, you know, if I'm going to truly try to date again.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, but are the DMs open?

[Derek]

The DMs are open. I'm open to date.

[Natalie Joy]

Was there any moment where you looked back at maybe some of the other women who were at the retreat and thought, maybe I should, like, rekindle with someone else? Maybe I should follow up with a connection that I had that I didn't see all the way through? Someone's clearing their throats?

[Vanessa]

What?

[Jorge]

I didn't do anything groundbreaking. You cough?

[Natalie Joy]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Let me ask y' All. There's something going on.

[Teresa]

Background.

[Jorge]

I was clearing my throat.

[Andrew]

I didn't think Jorge was going to start coughing.

[Jorge]

I cleared my throat and first of all, Derek is just a great guy. Now see how I did that? You like that? You're outstanding.

[Host/Narrator]

First of all, I mean, if you're

[Nick Viall]

broken up with someone, you're certainly allowed to visit past connections.

[Derek]

All right, so who's the connection? We all want to know.

[Jorge]

He doesn't have connections.

[Vanelle]

Can we let Derek answer?

[Jorge]

Yes. Chris?

[Derek]

Yeah. Whose DMs was DM?

[Nick Viall]

You?

[Teresa]

What was that?

[Derek]

Did I have any previous connections?

[Natalie Joy]

Well, I just was curious if maybe circle back.

[Derek]

From the show?

No, from the show.

I mean, like in Whistler. In Whistler. Did I develop any. I didn't develop any connections in Whistler.

[Nick Viall]

Is there anyone from the show that

[Jorge]

you went on, any

[Nick Viall]

with or conversations? It's not a crime, by the way.

[Derek]

Got it. Say less.

[Libby]

Everyone loves to keep in touch.

[Nick Viall]

Great relationship.

[Derek]

Yeah, exactly. I think everyone chats in the group chat.

[Libby]

Sometimes we text.

[Derek]

No one kept in touch with me.

Exactly.

But I'm with you guys. Wow.

Exactly. Stayed in touch with a few people.

[Nick Viall]

Obviously with Pfeiffer not being here, it seems like you got to know Pfeiffer a little bit. Is there anything we need to say or offer on Pfeiffer's behalf before we move on?

[Libby]

I mean, I think Pfeiffer is an amazing girl. I think my heart was. Oh, it was heart throb. Seeing their story. Like I think that they're both so well spoken and articulate and I don't know, when I see it, I'm like, oh my gosh, we were rooting for you. But I honestly do really resonate with Pfeiffer's experience back home because I think something people may not think about is that it's an incredibly unrelatable experience to come home and say that you met this guy who lives in another state and he has two kids and he's older than me and whatever. And I am somebody who also takes my friends opinions very seriously. And it's really hard honestly to tell people about the situation that you're in. But you kind of have to keep it under wraps and whatever. And frankly, it does feel a little bit delusional when your friends haven't met the person and you really don't have the perfect chance to prove yourself or your relationship and they haven't even seen it play out on tv. They don't know what your experience was. So I understand that that can be a really hard thing to bring back home. And if you let others opinions get to you or you really sit around and ruminate about what it is you did, it can be a bit of a trip.

[Nick Viall]

I'm curious, Andrew, how'd you deal with that? Because, like, on one side, I can't totally get what Libby's saying, but it's kind of like, all right, man, I'm dating someone younger. I want to know that she can, like, not be listening to people. Like, I want her to do what she wants to do. How did you guys strike that balance between, like, wanting to respect her friendships but at the same time want to make sure that she was making decisions for herself and feeling like that was happening?

[Andrew]

Well, I mean, if you watch the show, Libby's very outspoken. You know, I don't think she's someone that lets, you know, people's opinions get to her so much so. And I met Nina and them again. Like, we've hung out since then. So I think they saw our relationship. They saw how we were together, not just the little bit that they saw on the show, and they saw that we were, you know, very compatible. They saw the love that we had for each other. You know, as a father, I think that's what I would want to see if there was an age difference, you know, with one of my daughters dating someone. Want to see that person consistently show up, you know, for my daughter and, you know, see what that relationship looks like. And I see, I think as they've seen it, they've been very accepting of it.

[Natalie Joy]

Let's take a quick break and then we'll be right back to get into it with the rest of the couples. Don't go away.

[Host/Narrator]

This episode is sponsored by Better help. Financial stress can affect us more than we know. Whether it's financial stress, relationship stress, or work stress, it's often better to help get it off your chest and talk to a mental health professional. And Better Help has been helping people get into therapy and dealing with their mental health struggles for a long time now. We all understand that therapy can be intimidating and often feels inconvenient. You know, whatever your comfort levels are, Better Help makes it possible with over 30, 000 therapists that they're working with. They help ensure that you are going to match with the therapist that you

[Nick Viall]

feel safe and connect with.

[Host/Narrator]

And you can switch therapists for free every single time until you land on someone you love. Working With Better Help does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals, but Again, if it doesn't work out with that therapist, you can switch Twitch for free. With an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews, you know better help works when life feels overwhelming. Therapy can help. Sign up and get 10 off at betterhelp.com v I a l l that is betterhelp h-e l p.com v I a l l 91 of dog parents say their pup is an important member of the family. And 40% would even save a dog over a human stranger. Safe to say people are obsessed with their dogs, and Natalie and I are no different. We're absolutely obsessed with our dogs, Jeff and Steve, and we want to do what's always best for them. And that's why we feel great about feeding them Ollie. Ollie's fresh recipes are developed by real chefs and backed by vet nutritionists. They're obsessed with making the best meals with the highest quality ingredients. Listen like, we know how important it is. What we put in our body affects our overall health. And your dogs are no different. And the peace of mind that Nellie

[Nick Viall]

and I feel when we feed them Ollie is something you just can't be.

[Host/Narrator]

From the moment you start your subscription, everything is tailored to your pup. The meals are perfectly portioned, and you get a puptainer and scoop for easy storage and serving. With Ollie, you don't just get food through their app. You can actually check in on your dog's health with real vets just by uploading a picture. Their team can check in on your dog's weight, digestion, teeth and coat because they're obsessed with making sure your pup is healthy as it can be. That is peace of mind you can't beat. We're always checking in on our dogs and making sure they're healthy is where

[Nick Viall]

it needs to be.

[Host/Narrator]

Jeff and Steve love the beef and sweet potatoes. It's packed with protein, vitamins and minerals. Get ready for both you and your pup to be obsessed. Head to ollie.com v I a l l that is o l l I e.com v I a l l tell them about your dog and use our code V I A L l to get 60 off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer an obsession guarantee. If you're not completely obsessed, you'll get your money back again. That's o l l I e.com v I a l l and enter code v I a dash l l to get 60% off your first box. Ollie Feed the obsession and we're back

[Nick Viall]

to the Age of Attraction Season 1 reunion, and it's time to get into Teresa and John Woo.

[Teresa]

Can't wait.

[Nick Viall]

Theresa and John, also known as Age of Attraction's Prince Harry and Meghan Markle, minus the royal Drama, were immediately smitten with each other.

[Host/Narrator]

But could their fairy tale romance survive

[Nick Viall]

a 27 year age gap and Teresa's fear of outside judgment? Let's pop the bubble and ask. Well, I want to start with you, Theresa. Obviously, I think I speak for everyone when we were all rooting for you. As Tyra Banks famously said, the audience loves you guys. I think we're all very sad and heartbroken to hear that you guys aren't together following that very beautiful ceremony at the top of the mountain. Let's walk us through kind of like what happened next in your relationship.

[Teresa]

So, yeah, we left Vancouver and we went to Chicago. He came to my hometown, met a couple of my friends, stayed with me for a couple days. We had a great time. There were, you know, no issues. Everything was great. It was very sad to see him leave. And then we went and we met up in New York a couple weeks later. And that was sort of like the first time that we really went to Naples first. Oh, you're right. Sorry, my bad. Yeah, we spent fourth of July in Florida again, met a couple of my friends. Everything was great. He came more or less to me and yeah, we had a great time. Everything was wonderful. No cracks in anything. And then we went to New York and it was then that things really started to weigh on me, I guess. And there were some outside influences. One, the show had kind of broken with the Daily Mail and there were some negative things and I started getting anxious. And the other thing was we went to get drinks with his sister and another one of our cast members and. And they really made me feel very uncomfortable about my age. God, I didn't expect to get emotional.

[Natalie Joy]

Who made you feel uncomfortable? His sister and the other cast member.

[Libby]

Yeah.

[Teresa]

Yeah. I just felt like they were really sort of like focusing on their ages and I felt really kind of like left out of conversations. It almost felt like purposeful in some ways that, like, they were really trying to, like, make me feel old and I tried to keep my cool and I just couldn't handle it. So we were supposed to go out to dinner and I actually, like, felt sick. So I went back to the hotel and that was when I really, like, broke down. And I had texted John and told him, you know, I was really upset and everything and, you know, his initial response was, you know, very supportive and that we were going to talk when he got back. And I just kind of tumble weeded in my feelings, and I just couldn't get my head back to where it was before. And the next morning, he and I tried to have a conversation, and I tried to. You know, I was very emotional and tried to express what was going on inside of me. And I just didn't feel like John could give me the support that I needed. Like, it was. And no offense, but, like, he just didn't have any words. And I was, like, sitting there just, like, trying to explain where I was at, and it was, like, silence. And I just.

[Nick Viall]

Do you remember some of the things you were trying to explain and how you were trying to explain?

[Natalie Joy]

Yeah.

[Teresa]

I mean, I was basically reliving what had happened the night before. And I was saying, you know, like, this is just, you know, I was just dying for some support, some, like, reassurance of some sort. And I didn't get any. And so I was like, well, you have nothing to say, so I'm gonna go. And I went for, like, a walk around Manhattan. And then he left and went to his sister's. And that was, like, the first really bad part of the breakup.

[Nick Viall]

I'm sure I'm gonna love to hear your point of view of that story.

[John]

It was spot on. Exactly what happened any.

[Nick Viall]

Do you wish you would have handled it differently? Like, as you reflect back on that moment, what would you have done different if you could?

[John]

I think during the show, I said a million times and 2 million times. The age isn't an issue unless we make it an issue.

[Nick Viall]

Sure.

[John]

And she. And I'll speak for you, felt uncomfortable being in public. And the people looking at us differently.

[Teresa]

That wasn't it at all. I never felt like that. I never felt like walking down the street, like, going out to dinner, like, our two trips prior that we had taken. And even, like, when we first got to Manhattan, we went to lunch, I felt, like, very confident being next to you. Did not feel like anybody was looking at us. I said that, like, a few times. I was like, I don't think anybody, like, looks at us weird. Like, I feel like we look really good together. And I felt super confident in that. I think what it really was, and we did have a conversation after that ceremony on the mountaintop, that we were gonna have these kinds of issues. And we promised each other that we were going to, like, really be there and support each other. And that was what I was looking for. And I Just didn't know why that had. It felt like it had changed for you. And I. I don't know why, but I felt like the guy who I had seen in Naples, who, like, literally held me and was like, you tell me what you need. Tell me what you need, was gone. I didn't know where that went, but it wasn't there anymore.

[Nick Viall]

So are you saying you felt like she was making the age an issue, and that's why you had nothing to say?

[John]

That's what you told me.

[Nick Viall]

What do you mean?

[John]

That's what you said. You didn't feel comfortable with Catherine and my sister, and you felt, and I'll spare some words, you didn't feel good with us together. I went back to the hotel. We went to sleep. I woke up the next morning, and you just said, I can't do this anymore.

[Teresa]

Well, I said a lot more than that.

[John]

Listen, I'll keep some details out, but

[Teresa]

I think you just went blank. I don't think you really even could hear me. No, I heard you, but you didn't say anything.

[John]

You were processing everything.

[Teresa]

I was quiet. And I was sitting there waiting for you to respond, and you had no response.

[John]

I think we discussed age so many times that you deserve to be comfortable with who you're with, and I deserve the person I'm with to be comfortable with me. I think it was just going out in public more often, and, you know, each time we got together, it was a question. And Naples was fun. Chicago was perfect. New York was perfect. The first half. And you deserve to be with someone you're 100% comfortable in your skin with.

[Teresa]

I know that. And I was comfortable with you. I just. I was asking for what it was that we had promised to each other.

[Natalie Joy]

What I feel like I just heard was you said that age wouldn't be a factor unless the two of you made it a factor. And then I'm hearing that at dinner, you're sitting with this castmate and your sister kind of making age.

[John]

I mean, she deserves to feel. You know, I'm sorry. And I don't know what my sister was hinting at. I don't know what Catherine was hinting at. That's how you felt. Unfortunately, it's yours and I's relationship, so it doesn't matter what my sister thinks. It doesn't matter what Katherine thinks, so.

[Nick Viall]

Well, interesting enough. Let's just, for the sake of assumption, assume that maybe Teresa was projecting or reading it a certain way, whatever, but that's how she felt. And what I'm Hearing from Teresa is that she needed her man, her partner, to hear her out, validate her, talk her through it. And I'm almost hearing from you. Is this like, I'm done talking about her age, and I got nothing more to say, and you kind of shut down. You know, it's like, it's one thing to date in a bubble, but you guys are outside of a bubble, and you were gonna face some certain realities. And Teresa was trying to communicate to you, hey, like, I need this from you. I need to talk to you. And it didn't seem like you were having it.

[John]

I think the beauty of a relationship is two people that pick each other every day, and they go through those fights, and you're waking up next to the person, oh, they're picking me. I'm picking them. And I guess we got to a point where we just didn't pick each other. And was that me? Was that us? Was that her? It didn't work out, but I think, yeah, I think I have to look at myself. And maybe I was tired of the age becoming a factor. How do we look in public? How do you feel?

[Teresa]

Yeah, Literally, it was the first time it had become a factor.

[Natalie Joy]

Leah, you seem.

[Derek]

I'm just curious. Cause, like, his story don't add up, and she's telling her truth. So it's just very interesting, you know what I'm saying?

[John]

Why does my story not add up

[Derek]

for what she's saying, for her experience? Because you're downplaying everything that. And I'm just trying to understand your side. Cause you're like, that didn't happen. You're like. But she's literally saying how she was feeling at the time. And I'm just trying to. It's just so interesting.

[Jorge]

I don't think he's downplayed at all. I think he's taking accountability for it. I don't understand. I mean, to me, if he has a feeling, I can understand he. You know, the age factor. He may have gotten worn with it. I don't get into their relationship because I think that they had a beautiful relationship, but I don't think that he ducking and dodging anything. I think he's talking about it straight up.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, I mean, I think he's acknowledging that things don't work out, but it doesn't feel like he's acknowledging, I guess, this conversation, which is fine if you don't want to, but it's just more. If you guys don't get back together, well, we'll be sad. But again, I Hope that we all learn a little bit about ourselves and our relationships. And again, I think what I hope. Maybe if you're open to it, regardless of what the topic was, it sounds like age was the topic, but you're acknowledging that you just shut down emotionally and. Yeah, I totally agree with you. Every day you have to show up and you gotta choose each other, which is real. But it also can kind of be a cliche when you're just saying it. But in this moment, it sounds like you didn't show up for Teresa. Like, you didn't pick her in that moment by saying, how can I be there for you? It sounds like you quit, but maybe that's a breakup.

[John]

No.

[Nick Viall]

So you're just.

[Teresa]

So you broke up with me, essentially.

[Nick Viall]

So you're acknowledging in that moment you were.

[Teresa]

Well, if you're saying that that's what it was, that's Your action was equal to a breakup. Well, what are you saying then?

[Vanelle]

What

[Derek]

was that? Ultimately, what caused the breakup was that she didn't show up.

[Teresa]

The initial big swipe. Yeah,

[John]

I don't. I don't deserve to date someone who texts me. I feel disgusting with you.

[Teresa]

I never said that. I never said that.

[Nick Viall]

Did you take that as something about yourself?

[John]

She deserves to be comfortable with who you're with.

[Teresa]

I said I was disgusted with myself.

[John]

You just. That's terrible. I wouldn't want to date someone who feels like that.

[Teresa]

Well, I was looking for you to say, why do you feel this way? And, like, let me help you get through this. I mean, that's what relationships are about. Like, you do pick each other every day, but it doesn't mean you don't have conflict. And so if you have a conflict, does that mean, oh, I'm not picking you today? No, it means you work through it.

[John]

We had conflict before that. We had conflict with communication on the phone. And I said, tell me what you need, and we talked over the phone

[Teresa]

because he would disappear.

[Natalie Joy]

What does that mean, he would disappear?

[Teresa]

Like, I would be texting him and I wouldn't hear back from him for hours.

[Natalie Joy]

Did your phone die or.

[Teresa]

Well, if that's what you're referring to. That one time that I was like, I am not happy with the way that I'm texting you. You're telling me you're right there, and yet I don't hear back from you, and I didn't know what was going on. It's like a Friday night.

[John]

I mean, this is a lose, lose situation.

[Logan]

It's.

[Teresa]

You brought it up, so speak your truth.

[John]

Yeah, I'm not a big texter and we're in a long distance relationship. We called we FaceTime.

[Teresa]

That's the problem, obviously.

[John]

But I think you deserve to be with someone you're comfortable with.

[Teresa]

So do you. So does everybody.

[John]

I text me saying that you did not. You felt disgusting that night we went back to the hotel.

[Teresa]

That's.

[John]

That's. I feel bad in that if I'm your boyfriend and you feel disgusting going out with me, that's no fun for any either of us. You know, you deserve.

[Teresa]

I agree with you.

[Jorge]

So I threw it.

[Nick Viall]

I don't want you to chime in, but, like, go ahead.

[Teresa]

Sorry, we're having an argument.

[Nick Viall]

No, that's fine. I honestly, again, appreciate you guys being honest, but I'm trying to hear both of you. You know, we've been in fights. You know, sometimes she might say something where I don't agree or, you know, she might, you know, she might talk about how she's feeling right now and how I might make her feel. But, like, it really sounds like whatever she said, you just shut down. And I'm just like, wondering why.

[John]

Maybe I was over it.

[Derek]

Okay.

[Jorge]

Was it the culmination of certain things

[Chris]

is a lack of response. Always shutting down, though. I mean, someone who already struggles speaking and being. Or like, you've talked about that a lot. I'm not trying to defend anyone, but is that necessarily shutting down? Not necessarily knowing what to answer in that moment? And then now this is different. This is a few months later, but in that moment, you know, you could always have that conversation later. It's hard. I'm just trying to see from the

[Teresa]

outside, let's have this conversation.

[Chris]

How difficult is that to have a response there as well?

[Teresa]

No question. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, you know what, I need some time to, like, think about this and let's talk in another hour.

[Jorge]

I hear you.

[Teresa]

That didn't happen.

[Nick Viall]

We filmed a show. That show was centered around age differences. As you all know. You got asked that question a lot. It was the focus of the show. And unless you guys disagree, it's not Theresa saying post show. This was one of the first times you felt whatever you felt and brought this to John's attention. And you are saying in that moment you were over it.

[John]

I mean, we had discussions before. There was stuff said over text that I didn't appreciate about, like what you were. You felt bad stealing my youth.

[Teresa]

That was that night that we had that conversation.

[John]

It was beforehand. I don't really Feel comfortable, like, airing this out.

[Teresa]

Okay, well, that's why we're here.

[Natalie Joy]

Well, it sounds like the two of you were able to, at some point, reconnect if this was just the first swipe at a breakup. So what were the following days like after this?

[Teresa]

Do you want to talk?

[John]

You can talk.

[Teresa]

Okay. So the next. Actually, that morning after I took my walk and I had a clear head, I did contact John and I was like, I'm really sorry for my feeling overwhelmed. And, you know, I apologized and we talked a little bit about, like, what we were doing that day. The next morning, he came back to the hotel and we had breakfast. We had a great conversation. We went on a walk. He was leaving that day. I was staying in New York. We gave each other a hug and a kiss goodbye. Like a real kiss, not on the cheek. And we went our separate ways. And then I thought we were doing good, we were back, and it didn't turn out to be that way. Then that next week, we again had, like, some bad communication issues. I brought up something that I was curious about with regard to an Instagram thing and didn't hear from him.

[Nick Viall]

What Instagram thing?

[Teresa]

I'd just rather not mention it because I don't think it's relevant. But it was just something that I had seen that I was like, what is this? And I reached out to John and he did not reply for an hour. And then I got three words and that was it. And so I called, didn't pick up nothing. And then the next day, I write him again and he totally ghosts me. And I didn't talk to him for weeks.

[Natalie Joy]

What was his three word response?

[Teresa]

It was something like, don't worry about it. Very vague.

[Natalie Joy]

John, is there anything you would like to clear up in this moment?

[Teresa]

Is that a growl?

[Derek]

Use your voice.

[Vanelle]

Say something.

[Natalie Joy]

Speak.

[Derek]

Yeah, speak like it sounds. Did you think you were in a relationship at that point?

[John]

No.

[Derek]

Okay, when was this? What month I'm talking about?

I mean, you guys speak on John.

[Jorge]

Speak your truth.

[Teresa]

Yeah, yeah, explain. I would love to hear.

[Nick Viall]

I.

[John]

You got pretty nasty with me after that.

[Teresa]

Yeah.

[John]

You got pretty nasty with me.

[Teresa]

I did.

[John]

And I want to be totally respectful and I want to support you through this journey. And maybe I didn't communicate with you in the moment when you needed it, but I want to support you now. That being said, with some of the communication we had post breakup, if we were not in this bubble and we didn't have to support each other right now, which I do want to support you with the way you communicated with me and the things you said, I don't think we would ever speak again.

[Teresa]

Okay. I mean, I was very frustrated when I left you that voice memo. I said some things that I regret, and I said that later. But that is sometimes what happens when you are ghosted.

[John]

We were broken up.

[Teresa]

I didn't think we were.

[John]

Then I apologize.

[Teresa]

We never really declared that we were broken up, and we had continued to talk. And it's kind of semantics at the

[Chris]

end of the day.

[Nick Viall]

We're all adults, and I'm just like, did you expect a response from whatever question you asked?

[Teresa]

Yeah. And it was actually me trying to, in some ways, protect you, because I saw some things that I was like, I don't think you're gonna want, you know, out there.

[John]

Don't comment.

[Natalie Joy]

Jorge, is there anything.

[Jorge]

I'm not in the business of speaking into people's relationships. I don't think that Jon is speaking his authentic truth, because I think he's protecting Teresa, which I respect. And so if this man's gonna choose to protect her, I'm all for it, because I'm all about protecting relationships, and I understand it, but I think that's so not fair.

[Teresa]

First of all, you're like, gaslighting a little bit.

[Jorge]

I'm not gaslighting anyone, Theresa.

[Teresa]

There's nothing I need protection of. I take. Take full responsibility for what it was that I said in that moment, John. And if you want to protect and you want to air all of our dirty laundry, let's do it.

[Jorge]

I'm not. I don't.

[Teresa]

Once again, I was being just as respectful to him as he's claiming to be to me, with protecting me and supporting me. So, I mean, I'm holding back some information. He's, you know, saying that he is protecting me by maybe not saying that I was nasty in that voice memo. I don't know.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, listen, every healthy couple has had to apologize. You know, hey, I'm sorry I've been an asshole. I'm sorry I've been. Whatever. But I think what we're talking about here is how you guys communicated or didn't communicate. And so, like, you seem like a great guy and the guy I got to know filming, like, I really enjoyed my time and just watching it back. You were always showing up for Theresa. You seemed like the. This really empathetic, really understanding guy. The guy sitting here right now. I'm not getting that same energy. I'm getting like I was over it, whatever. And what am I missing?

[Jorge]

You.

[Vanessa]

I just.

[Natalie Joy]

You don't want to say anything.

[John]

I don't know.

[Nick Viall]

No, I mean, you guys fell in love on TV.

[Teresa]

I will 1000%. Like, John is an amazing guy. I mean, we had our issues and there were things and that was the demise of the relationship. And like, yeah, we're getting emotional and a little heated here. But at the end of the day, like, I thought you were an amazing guy, man, whatever. On the show, I still think you are. I just think our communication fell apart. I don't really know what happened, but. And my only thing that I would say is that like, you gotta learn how to communicate better. I don't know. I mean, I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I really care about you. I always have over this last nine months. So, you know, I'm not here to like, trash you. I'm not here to like, dig up bad stuff. But I think that you are very closed off right now. And I think when we were on the show and we were together, you were very open, you're very comfortable, and that's why we flowed so well. And I don't, I don't know, that's just my take.

[John]

Yeah, I'll admit that, yeah, maybe I did shut down at the hotel. I did and you did. You deserve a better communication, 100%. But I think in that moment, if we're being truthful with each other, I was probably just fed up with age being an issue with you not feeling comfortable together. I don't want to date someone who feels gross next to me. And that text hurt. I was out with my sister. We had a reservation for three, her favorite restaurant. That text hurt me. Because you deserve to feel comfortable with whoever you're dating.

[Teresa]

No, I agree. I agree.

[John]

And yeah, I just shut down. Yeah, I did. And I didn't communicate. And the lines were very blurry after that walk. After breakfast the next morning, they were very blurry. And hindsight's 20 20. If I wish I could go back and say, no, we're not doing this, you know, we need some space and just shut it down. Maybe we rekindle in a couple weeks. But I didn't. And we didn't. And that the lines were. It was a little gray and I do regret that.

[Teresa]

All right, well, I appreciate that.

[Nick Viall]

Do you think age played a role in your guys demise?

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

In what way?

[Teresa]

I just think that we didn't have the communication skills that we needed. And I think the distance definitely had a huge part in it because when you live across the country from each other, you can't just be like, let's go grab coffee and go for a walk and talk through this, or whatever. It's telephone. And as he said, he doesn't like to text. So if you don't have those basic communication skills, like, what do you have?

[Nick Viall]

What did you learn about yourself in this process, John?

[John]

Funny, I thought I could communicate in the. In the bubble, and I feel like Teresa allowed me to have extremely hard conversations. I would consider myself anxiously attached, and that's something I'm working on. And in the bubble, when the kids came, she kind of shut down and went in her, you know, separate part of the house. And I was like, chasing after. I was like, what's wrong? What can I do for you? And she's like, john, just let me have my space. Like, I'm fine. The kids are coming. I just need my space. And it made me think, fuck, nothing's wrong with us. I'm just, oh, Theresa's gone, and that's not healthy. She needs her space. And I remember she was on the stove, and I was like, what's. Like, how can I be here for you right now? And she said, I just need my space. And that was the first time I was allowed to have a really hard and uncomfortable conversation because it was me. I was anxiously attached. I thought I did something wrong. She was in the bathroom throwing up, and I text. She was like, just leave me alone. And nothing's wrong with our relationship in that moment. I just need to learn to be, you know, confident in what we had. And I've learned that I know I'm anxiously attached, and she allowed me to have hard conversations. Did I fail later on? Yeah, it definitely wasn't the best communication, but in the experience, she made me a lot better. Selfishly, I can thank her for that.

[Natalie Joy]

Did that attachment style carry on throughout after filming?

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[John]

I mean, not to be the guy that talks about baseball all the time and, you know, his glory years. Baseball was ripped away from me. So I've taken that into relationships, and it's not. It's not healthy. I think our breakdown was communication. And I think not to make excuses. It's easier when you're living with each other in the bubble. It's easier if you live in the same city. I think that's just common sense. I'm proud of us for taking a really realistic approach to it. I did, at least, I think. And I'm not going to speak for her, but, yeah, I think communication was a breakdown.

[Nick Viall]

I'm curious. Just reflecting on this Relationship. How will you work on your attachment style or whatever it is that causes you to shut down when things get difficult?

[John]

Just be confident in what the relationship you built with that person. Be secure. And I think I was secure in. In Vancouver and in Whistler with her.

[Nick Viall]

That was kind of like the honeymoon, you know, it's like what I'm hearing is it was fun. It was great. There was this huge chemistry, you know, but when shit hit the fan, you cut and run.

[John]

Well, shit hit the fan like a couple weeks before New York, whenever. No, I know we had some conversations that I didn't like over the phone. And I was like, we're gonna talk about this in person. And then we went to New York and it was.

[Natalie Joy]

Did you talk about those things in person in New York, or did they kind of just be brushed under the rug?

[John]

You text me that you felt bad when we were away and you wanted me to see other people, you felt bad.

[Teresa]

No, I asked you if you wanted to, and if you did, I said, please, just be honest with me.

[John]

Yeah. And I didn't. I didn't appreciate that because it's not something I do in a relationship.

[Teresa]

It's not something I was just kind of giving you sort of an opening or an opportunity to be. Cause we didn't have great communication. Again, like, you don't like to text. Our phone calls were very far and few between. I felt like there was this distance that was growing. And so I was like, huh, maybe he wants to start dating other people. And so I was like, let me just throw this out there and see how his response was. And you were like, no, absolutely not. And I didn't realize that my asking you that question would have made you upset. You didn't tell that to me. So, you know, I was literally just trying to, like, fish to see what was going on because I didn't know where we were at a variety of times after we left Naples, more or less, I think.

[Nick Viall]

Theresa, I gotta ask about your kids.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Obviously, they played a big role in your feelings and your decision. Did your kids ever find out how old John was?

[Teresa]

They just found out.

[Natalie Joy]

They just found out from watching the show back?

[Teresa]

Pretty much, yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And why did you never tell them?

[Teresa]

Well, John and I had broken up, and, you know, I just didn't. I was like, what's the point now? Like, nobody.

[Nick Viall]

They weren't curious.

[Teresa]

I mean, they. They're living their own lives. Like, my youngest was starting his first job in New York. My. You know, like, everybody's off doing their own Thing. They're not like, in mom's house, like, what's going on? So I just didn't bring it up to them. And then, yeah, on Monday with the trailer or the little poster thing with our ages under our feet, I was like, oh, look, Lauren. Like, they color corrected my skirt. She's like, oh, my God, he's 27. I was like, oh, shit. Like, I forgot that was there. And then my son just texted me. I think it was this morning or yesterday. Like, I saw the first episode and I'm really shocked at how young he is. And, you know, my response was, he's a great guy. He, you know, is a lot more mature than what his age is. Obviously you met him, you got to know him, and you know, we're not together, so I guess you don't have to worry about that. And I was, like, concerned that his friends were embarrassed.

[Nick Viall]

I'm looking back, obviously, I know. I remember at that infamous dinner where Leah had something to say. It's okay, it's okay. But listen, like, obviously it was all your guys journey to do whatever you want.

[Host/Narrator]

But I do think Leah, you know,

[Nick Viall]

made a point in the sense that, like, it's like, if your kids play that much of a role in your dating life and it makes a lot of sense, wouldn't it make sense to tell him? Because what if they didn't accept how old John was at the time? And here you are falling in love with this guy. Wasn't that putting your relationship with John in a sticky position by not just being upfront with your kids, knowing that what they think means a great deal to you?

[John]

I don't mean to cut you off. I think it's a double standard with us versus the people with kids. Because what if someone falls in love and then a year later meets the kids and the kids don't like the partner? Same thing with us. We weren't allowed to go through our journey without her getting scrutinized for not revealing my age. But it's really the same thing. It's a big part of her life. It's a big part of a partner's life who has kids. So they get to the pass of she has kids. No, I know, but they get the pass.

[Libby]

But with younger kids who weren't, who

[Natalie Joy]

didn't come to the.

[John]

Yeah, they get the pass on not introducing, you know, the partner to the kids, but when she doesn't want to reveal my age, she gets shit for it.

[Teresa]

Right. And to add on to that, what I was gonna say is that, you know, I totally respect, like, Andrew and Derek's choice not to introduce or whatever, 100%. However, like, I also am in that situation, regardless of the fact that my kids are, like, maybe seven, eight years older than yours. Like, they came to the show, obviously, you could see how nervous that was for me because I do not introduce my kids to partners casually at all. And I was forced to do that. Okay? So I had to swallow that and deal with it. And so the fact that that was a huge thing for me, and then on top of it, I'm supposed to say, oh, by the way, he's two years younger than you, Richard. Like, that was a lot for me.

[Nick Viall]

I totally get that's a lot. The question still stands. I'm just curious knowing that it does mean a lot to you what they think. Is there a world where we do throw a lot at you? Obviously, it was a very weird situation. I totally get that. But I'm just wondering, when you watch it back, is there a lane where it would have made sense just to kind of tell them? Because if they didn't accept him, what would have happened if they didn't accept him?

[Teresa]

So the reason why. Let me give you my train of thought. So. So again, to go back to. I met John, I had no idea how old he was, really was drawn to him, had feelings, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? Then I find out how old he is and I'm like, oh, my God. Okay. Well, now I have this, like, inner argument with myself. If my kids who are in their 20s, had gotten to know John and learned what a great guy he is, just like I did and saw how strong our relationship and. And saw all those good things. And then they found out and they were like, oof. I'd be like, yeah, but let's have this intellectual argument. Now, does age matter? Because he's got all of these qualities and I get it, but these are the reasons why I chose him. And I still chose him after I knew his age. And I want you guys to also think about that. And that's the conversation I would have had after they got to know him.

[Natalie Joy]

Teresa, when you met John's mom and sister, you left and they stayed and had a conversation. His sister said that you not telling them about having children was off putting and weird. How did that feel to watch that back?

[Teresa]

I mean, it hurt. John and I had had a conversation prior to getting together with our, you know, friends and family, and we both said that we were not going to say those things. We were not going to you know, we, I mean it's roll back like we literally say like we're not going to say ages and we're not going to talk about the kids. And so it was okay when I found out that he had said like, oh yeah, you know, she's got kids or whatever. I just didn't think it was part of the plan. So that's part of the reason why I didn't say those things. But I mean, if I had known that we were wanting to do that, I would have done it. Okay.

[Natalie Joy]

Is there any love still there? Are you guys in love with each other?

[Nick Viall]

Is there any chance at rekindling?

[Teresa]

I mean, I think I will always really care about John and I think what we had was real. But I think we've learned that like it's just we're not compatible.

[Nick Viall]

John, do you feel like age played a role in your relationship ending?

[John]

I don't, I don't think it was age. I think it was communication. I think it was. I think I'll speak for myself. We all go to Jorge and we spent so much time together during this process. He's taught me a lot that experiences matter and communication is key, as cheesy as that sounds. So I think if I might have, if I would have shown up and communicated clearly with her, we could have talked through those things. Was it me giving up? Yeah, I think that's, that's. You can paint that picture. I don't think it was just age that broke us up.

[Natalie Joy]

Okay, well thank you for being so vulnerable and honest about Yalls relationship.

[Host/Narrator]

Leah and Chris's 15 year age gap relationship begged the question, can you turn

[Nick Viall]

a boy into a man?

[Natalie Joy]

And after a season of ups and downs, flight attendant Leah came to the realization that Chris might not be as worldly as she hoped. Leah, how did it feel knowing that you were ready to commit and he was not?

[Derek]

Um, for me it was shocking because everything that he told me to my face was that he was in it, so. Cause it's like what you don't see is that he actually met my sister in law and we had a great time and he talked about how into me he was and all these things about getting to know me. And then we also meet his mom the next day and then as you see what she said, she said, you look so happy. You heard that right? Yeah, me too. And then in two seconds he's like, I'm so stressed. I was like, you wasn't stressed two minutes ago?

[Chris]

Not two minutes, but yeah. I mean more like 45 minutes, you know?

[Derek]

But you feel me, though?

[Chris]

Yeah, I feel you.

[Derek]

So it's like once again, it's like. It's just all like a facade. It's like some lies, you know? Cause I didn't know he had all these feelings. Cause he didn't tell me.

[Nick Viall]

So watching that moment back with his mom, that caught you completely off guard?

[Derek]

Yeah, because we were in a good place. When I had walked away, like, me and his mom had a great chat. We, like. Did we not? Mm, okay, cool. I gotta. You know. But we did. And she understood. I think her biggest concern was like, I've lived alone. They're used to being around their family. I was like, I love hanging out, having parties. I was like, but does the door lock? You know what I mean? But that was like her biggest thing about children. And I was like, I've never pressed him for a relationship. Children. I just was like, we can just date. Cause I don't know from him, like from what he was always telling me. It's like he was in and he was having issues, but it never had to do with me. It was about the sleep, being sleep deprived, all these filming issues. You know what I mean? It was never like, leah, it's you. You're the problem. He never said that to me. Cause if he had. What you don't know is my best friend lost her mom two days into Vancouver. And I found that out. So for me, it's like, I never needed him. You know, my girlfriend needed me. I could have bounced if I knew that's what he was pushing, you know what I mean? So for me, he was very selfish in that to not let. Just tell me the truth. Cause I remember I sat down with him. Like, I felt him pulling away about maybe a few days in. Cause the whole sleep stuff. And I was like, hey. I sat him down on the couch and I was like, do you like me? And he said, yes, it's not you, it's the situation. I was like, okay, then I'll ride with you. Because once I ask you once, I don't need to ask you six times, do you like me? You say you like me, then I'll ride with you. And I won't talk bad about you. And I will keep it. Like, you heard me in our. We had like a meeting with the crew about some stuff. And I was like. I fought for him. I was like, he's not sleeping. He doesn't go to the gym. He doesn't get to 10. You know what I mean? But at the End of the day, it's like, that wasn't even my fight to fight.

[Nick Viall]

Hi, Chris.

[Derek]

What's up?

[Nick Viall]

I'm just watching it back. I am curious, you know, for those watching or listening during filming, as you guys know, we took your phones away. We really wanted you guys to focus on your relationships. You have this limited time. So the whole part of the experiment is to really lean in. And so I'm just curious, Chris, like, during this phase why it seemed like you weren't leaning in to this experience. And last time I had a chance to talk with you, you talked about, I think your explanation was you wanted to give Leah a glimpse into what your life was like. But at the same time, couldn't you have just told her, hey, normally I work out, normally I tan, normally I nap. But like, why were you so reluctant to use this very limited time that you guys had to really lean in to see what your connection was about?

[Chris]

Yeah. So addressing that question first, before anything talking about my routine, that was an excuse to not sneaking out of the apartment and going and doing what the other couples were doing because, you know, it seemed like the other couples were having a great time and having fun. I'm not trying to. Sorry, that's not what I was. That's not what I was saying. In other words, we're not going out of our way to spend more time with each other, which I hear you on that. We know, right? Like, we're not.

[Derek]

What do you mean by that's not

[Chris]

meaning, like, instead of, hey, tonight we have kind of an off night and tomorrow we don't have much to do instead of let's maybe go to a bar and catch something to eat. My choice was let's just stay in inn and maybe we watch something on TV and cook, you know, like, and, and I hear you with what you're trying to say, but that was my response to that about the whole routine. That's why my response to you was, well, I guess I also told you and this reality, like, I felt like I was almost working at one point. Right. Like trying to keep myself healthy and also struggling with the sleep. You remember when we were talking about

[Derek]

that because they casted you to be the gym guy. Yes, that's what you said.

[John]

Correct.

[Chris]

Well, and that's not right and that's not fair for you. So I hear you on that, but I don't think that it's fair to say that I wasn't leaving.

[Natalie Joy]

Wait, he said that they casted him to the gym.

[Andrew]

I didn't say I don't remember saying that.

[Chris]

If I did regard. That's not what. I don't remember saying that. But I don't think that matters. I mean, it doesn't matter.

[Derek]

It did matter.

[Chris]

I know, but I don't remember saying that. And regardless whether they cast me for that, obviously I'm there to find love. I hear you.

[Derek]

Okay, so with that said, rest of the cast, do you think he was there to find love? Go ahead. If you think he was there to find love, go ahead and raise your hands.

[Vanelle]

What I will say, like, honestly, also, like, being in that experience. Like. Like, I also watching, like, the last finale episodes, you can clearly tell, like, Chris, like, you honestly didn't like Leah. Like, let's just kick the buck. You didn't at all. And you never expressed that to her. All the things you told your mom, you never expressed that to her face ever. And I think that was unfair. Like, Leah was literally there, like, so into you, and literally in that experience with you, and you just. You didn't like her, but you didn't say that to her.

[Chris]

I also think it's unfair for, especially from the inside, from everyone here, to say that when you saw how invested I was and you saw me on off days and you saw how. When you say I wasn't leaning into it, I was still there because I was leaning into it. We had a great time. Whistler, obviously, you know, the edit, there was not much shown there. We get into this, what seemed a little more out of the bubble, but we're still in a bubble. And three, four days in, I was. I felt like I was over it at that point. And I was very.

[Nick Viall]

Over what?

[Chris]

The whole thing, the whole experience. I was struggling with Leah. I think it was very clear how much we were struggling. I don't know how it's possible that anybody could say that. I was, like, completely hiding that and showing that. I know that wouldn't show on tv, but there's no one here that didn't see me that Sunday and said, what's wrong, Chris? Not one person.

[Nick Viall]

Well, what I'm hearing from you, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that when you talked, when she would check in with you, you would blame it on the show, production, the weirdness of it all.

[Chris]

So then the next Monday, we had a date that didn't show, was a shopping day. That's when the turn changed.

[Derek]

This is.

[Chris]

We moved on Thursday into Vancouver. We had off day Sunday. This is three days into filming in Vancouver. So we have a date that morning. I was told, you need a voice. For the first time, I was struggling. I didn't want to talk negative. I didn't want to do all that that morning. That interview was not my best interview. I was crying through the interview. I'm really happy it didn't show. I wasn't feeling good. We go into. Instead of being able to have a great conversation, we went into a shopping day. We get there. It's a boutique that, honestly, I didn't. You know, I don't think that she was into, because she very. Was very clear about that. I'm not really, like, this isn't a place I would shop. Shop right like this, which. I'm glad we found something nice. But regardless, I mean, that's my life, bro. Cool.

[Nick Viall]

I know.

[Jorge]

I know.

[Derek]

But that's.

[Nick Viall]

And I show up, you know.

[Derek]

Well, I mean.

[Chris]

Well, I. I definitely showed up. I definitely showed up because when I was there, we went through shopping, we went through dresses, and I was struggling at this point, and it was very clear I was struggling. And one of the few things she kept saying was, like, well, you're living your best life out here. I'm not. We had an off day the day before, and we were on the pool, and I spent maybe an hour and a half by myself. She was struggling with a lot. And to be honest with you, I didn't want her to feel like I'm having a good time while she's struggling, but also needed you have your space. That was the moment you were on the phone, right? And I was in the corner in the pool. It wasn't until the last 15 minutes that Andrew sat on the floor in the pool, in the corner and said, dude, like, that's when we had that conversation. Hey, I know you're struggling. Everyone sees that you're struggling. You're gonna get through this, and you're gonna be better for this. Five minutes later, all the boys are sitting next to me. Ten minutes later, Leah walks up, and she sees me having a great time, laughing with the boys. Next day, we're at this date, and as she's trying on clothes, she's talking about how I'm living my best life. And I go in there, you know, kind of throwing shade. It kind of felt like, anyway, we're walking out, and, you know, I was asked about, you know, who's paying for this whole thing from the outside perspective. And I was like, you know, that's my.

[Derek]

I'm not.

[Chris]

If I ever, ever take somebody on a date, I'm taking on a date. Whether it's food, whether it's shopping, because this is me. And I felt like once I voiced her, like, hey, this is me. Whatever you want is fine. But just so you understand, you know, we're walking out, she's grabbing these clothes, and then she's like, oh, but we didn't even look at jewelry yet. After we already. After. I know she's joking, but after she already told me she didn't like any of this jewelry, Right? So it's like, it felt like she was not on my side at that point. It felt like no one was on my side. When I'm clearly trying to lean into this at this point, I'm giving. I'm giving everything I have at this point, and it's awesome.

[Jorge]

Did you like. I just wanna know.

[Vanelle]

Just because they're still not saying, like,

[Jorge]

can I ask you this? Did you like her?

[Chris]

Dude, I wouldn't have stayed there if I didn't like her.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Jorge]

When you were in Vancouver, did you have feelings for her?

[Chris]

Of course. Of course I had feelings for.

[Jorge]

What are you talking about? I'm just asking.

[Chris]

Four days in, I wanted to go home. And that's the reality.

[Nick Viall]

But why did you want to go home?

[Chris]

Because I would. Because I didn't think it was working. I thought the age gap was too far for us, and I thought that it was creating an unnecessary pressure.

[Nick Viall]

Pressure? But why not own that? Yeah.

[Derek]

Cause I asked you.

[Libby]

Chris, I love you as a friend, and I hear what you're saying about the shopping date and stuff, but everyone was out of their routine. We were tanning, we were going to the gym. I was there. You were there. But Leah did not deserve you pretending like you liked her so that you came off as a nice guy. And to be strung along, that was not fair to her at all. And you could see her genuine emotion and her genuine connection. And here she was believing your words, but everybody else could see that those weren't your intentions. And it was really, really sad watching that back to see how much you liked him. And I think everybody was thinking the same thing. That was really sad to see. And how you were just. You just wanted to come off as a nice guy. But I hear what you're saying about the shopping date. I know that's frustrating, but we were all out of a routine.

[Derek]

Let me just tell you why I did what I did with the shopping date, because you literally told me. Maybe like a day before.

[Host/Narrator]

Remember?

[Derek]

I listened to everything you said. You literally told me you took a girl that you didn't Even date. And you bought her a Prada bag.

[Chris]

Yeah, but I was.

[Derek]

Look, right, but it was $400, y'.

All.

If I had my. I got this little. But, yeah, $400. And then you bragged about how much you spent on your grocery bill. Did he not? $600. So you bragged about all this stuff. And if you liked me, it's like, sure, whatever. You want these items, we shop together.

[Vanelle]

Cool.

[Derek]

That's why I was like, yeah, add the shoe. Add the jewelry sale.

[Chris]

I told me that you didn't like it. That's why I was hurt by it.

[Derek]

But you saw me. I was like, this is cute. I will find something cute in this store.

[Jorge]

I hear you.

[Chris]

But you got my.

[Derek]

You said you'd even like the girl that you brought the Prada bag. How much Prada these days?

[Chris]

Yo, that was a conversation about another relationship.

[Derek]

This mess was $400, baby. Like, it wasn't that serious.

[Logan]

Okay, let's. I want to take a pause, cuz everybody is kind of getting at Chris right now.

[Jorge]

Let's.

[Derek]

John.

[Logan]

Chris and I were dating older women.

[John]

Right.

[Logan]

And I think you just saw it just now with John and. And his struggle to find his words, even with the story he told when he was on the phone. You know, Teresa was saying he shut down. When you're dating a woman that's older and strong and powerful, she's used to living her life a certain way. And sometimes, you know, being single in the world, it's a mean world. You talk to people a certain way. And when you go back to a relationship, sometimes that doesn't always translate. And so the partner doesn't always feel like they can communicate back. So as much as. Yeah, he didn't tell Leah. Was he struggling? Cause he really wanted to push to make it work. I'm sure.

[Jorge]

But I think what's coming across right now. And Chris knows I love him. I just want Chris to speak his truth. And I think that the women are saying you weren't being truthful. But what I'm concerned with. I get it. What they're saying. I understand wholeheartedly what they're saying. You didn't. You weren't true for it. And I just want Chris to speak your truth. And it's okay, right? Whatever your truth is. I think if. And I don't wanna speak for Leah, but I think if Leah felt like whatever your truth was, she'll live with it.

[Derek]

I did.

[Jorge]

All I'm saying. All I want you to do is just speak her truth. Whatever it is. I ride with you 10 toes down.

[Derek]

If you were struggling like that, I think it would have helped Leah and helped you if you would have been like, rather than saying, I want to go to the gym in this production, look, I am struggling with you. This is what you're doing to affect me. And then you give her that opportunity to fix it and talk to you about it. And y' all can grow from it if it's, you know, if it's meant to be. So.

But the thing, too is he did voice it, and that's why after a

[Chris]

few days could have happened faster. I can get.

[Vanelle]

And.

[Derek]

But this is why. But you have to realize, like, yeah, But like I said, my best friend lost her mom, and that was like a mom to me. I remember you had voice that you said, you know, I just want to be alone, like, at night. I was like, cool. I remember I gave you your space at night all the time, right? You watched tv, you did your thing. I went to bed. I left you alone. Yes. I joined you in cooking sometimes just to have that we time. But I remember going to bed, I

[Nick Viall]

cried so hard, and then I felt

[Derek]

guilty for bringing it to you while you were on the couch watching tv. So I literally remember. I didn't mean me asking. I was like, is it okay if I sit next to you or, like, sit near you? So I sat on the opposite side of the couch, and I. While you watched me, I just sat there. I didn't cry. I just sat. And if that makes me overbearing or clingy, then it is what it is. But, like, in that moment, yes, I would have wanted my partner to be like, are you okay? I know you're struggling right now. You know what I mean? But instead, through this process, I'm protecting you, coddling you when I needed that. And I'm like, you've come to me as, like, a victim a lot of the times, and at the end of the day, I'm a victim. Like, you played me. You know what I mean? And I'm like, in the real world, I would never get played because I have options. I didn't need you. I wanted you around. Do you know what I'm saying? And in this process, when I talked to my friend, I was like, I will come home for you because I don't need to be here. She said, me and my mom would have wanted you to do this because this could be your chance to find someone. So that's why I stayed extra long, because you kept telling me to my face that you Want to do this for us. And then I would hear every little thing, some little things that you would say. And it's like, it would just be like a little different, but then once. You know what I mean? But this is a different world. So I was like, well, we're on tv. He's probably getting nervous with his words, but I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. And I saw like, you know how you say, people say you date the potential of a man? And I was. Cause I know you're a good person, you don't mean harm, but you did harm, you know? And I just want you to just take that ownership, to know I'm literally, I'm telling you, like for someone to say as like, I was clingy and my friend needed me. I'm like her best friend, like her own, like, you know what I mean? And like, you took that from me.

[Jorge]

I'm sorry.

[Nick Viall]

Looking back, do you think you were reckless with Leah's feelings?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Derek]

And in that pool, that pool day that we had, everyone. I think I remember Andrew coming over. He said, are you okay? And I said, I'll be fine, but I. Give me some time. And I don't even think you even checked on me. That's why I said you're out here living your best life, because I was literally on that thing structured.

[Chris]

I checked on you, but I hear you. You know how much I was feeling for that. Because you know me with what I just dealt with two years ago, you know, I feel.

[Derek]

And that's why, like.

[Chris]

And I'm sorry that, that's.

[Derek]

That's why I was. You made sure everyone around you was good and happy except for the person who was living with you.

[Nick Viall]

Leah, did Chris know that you were gonna say yes at the final ceremony?

[Vanelle]

No.

[Derek]

I ended up changing my mind. So I was gonna say no. And then I wanted to. After dinner, we had a great conversation. I remember, like, mind you, we had the mom, my sister in law, that all had great, great endings. And I was like, okay, he understands where I'm coming from. He finally gets what I'm trying to tell him. And he literally, he's like, literally, you know, it's like, you made me a better man. I was like, I'm not trying to make you a better man for the next person. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm trying to, like, I just, I see you, I get what a good person you can be. And that's what I'm saying, like, when you're on, you're on. But you, like, live in your head and it just turns and spins. You're thinking about so much far in advance, which is beautiful, but like, you just have to live in the present.

[Nick Viall]

What did you think Chris was gonna say at the commitment ceremony?

[Derek]

I knew he was gonna say no. I went. I felt it the day he left. I felt like our goodbye, it wasn't like a normal goodbye that you would be like, oh, all the other couples are like, oh, my God, I miss you so much. He was like. I was racing to get out and I was like, dang. You know, I get you stressed and all, but whew. I probably, you know, that's why when I was like, you're gonna miss me, I was like, I'm just. Now I'm just mad cause I know you're not gonna mess with me. You can't wait. You running out the door.

[Nick Viall]

You know, Chris, last time we had you on the show, you caught me off guard. Cause you kind of kept referencing this desire of being on reality TV you had mentioned. I forgot how you said it, but

[Natalie Joy]

you talked about he was 18, you thought you were ready for reality television. And then here you are at 27

[Chris]

doing feeling like I'm not ready. Right.

[Nick Viall]

I wasn't sure what you said, but it was just. It really caught me off guard because I just. You were just talking about this desire about specifically going on reality tv, which is not a crime. But obviously given this show and given how real it is for people and what they sacrifice showing up. I'm just wondering, did your desire to be on reality TV supersede your consideration for these feelings?

[Chris]

And when you talk about desire to be on reality TV, I was talking about Full Circle. I was 17 years old. I thought I was going to be on Survivor. I dropped out of school because I was going to. Thought I was going to be on the show. Never went on. But six months later, started a charity with my friend that was on the show.

[John]

Whatever.

[Chris]

We started traveling and. And I wouldn't have dropped out of school if that didn't happen. I would have started the business that I started. I would have never. I started working out after surgery because I thought I was going to be on survivor as a 17 year old. Started my fitness journey. That was season, I think 32. Now it's season 50 and they're doing the celebration for the same. The same person from the show that casted me. So I just was referencing how I thought that was full circle. I was referencing how I thought I was so ready back Then. But going into this show, I didn't feel ready. Right. It almost felt scary. Okay. And as far as sacrificing, what went into it, I was. Those three days, those four days, all I was thinking was I wanted to make sure that when I left this, I wouldn't. Especially her family, because I hadn't met them yet, you know, that we would both be able to watch this and be proud of what we watched and how we treated each other. Okay. So before I say anything else, I am going to take ownership to that and what you just talked about. I'm not going to beat around the bush, and I'm sorry if that. Playing with your emotions, all of this. Right. Like, this is not what the intention was, but a few days into Vancouver, because I think it was very clear what we had in Whistler, and I thought that was really cool. And it changed a little bit. I wanted to go home. It didn't matter the money, it didn't matter the time, it didn't matter the screen, what money. You know, whatever. Whatever it is you're getting paid to be on TV or you're doing this and that, that didn't matter anymore.

[Nick Viall]

I don't.

[Chris]

Guys, I'm not.

[Nick Viall]

I'm just. I'm just. Your words, man. I'm just.

[Chris]

You hear what I'm saying? It doesn't matter what I'm. I said it doesn't matter what we're out here for. I'm here. I don't want to be here anymore. And I'm. And I'm struggling with this. And I think the. The next morning was the most difficult day for us, which was that shopping day. And afterwards.

[Nick Viall]

Well, I do want to clear up for anyone listening or watching. No one here got paid except for us. And people truly showed up sincere, wanting to meet real connections and real people and see what they had in common.

[Teresa]

Quick question.

[Nick Viall]

Sure.

[Teresa]

I have to get this off my chest. I don't. This is something that I heard when we were filming, and I just want to ask if anybody else had heard this, but. And. Sorry, Chris, but at our mixer, the first mixer, right after we got back from our wine date. Wine date? Yeah. There was talk that you had approached a couple, maybe just one other lady, I don't even know who it was, and said something to the effect of, hey, do you want to, like, make a pact to be together so that we can get to the end? Was that true or did anybody else hear that?

[Derek]

Yes, we heard it.

[Jorge]

It.

[Teresa]

Oh, you did?

[Vanelle]

Okay.

[Derek]

Yes.

[Teresa]

So I'm not crazy.

[Jorge]

Correct. We all heard it.

[Chris]

A. I was approached myself with that and I'm not going to say who it was, but I was approached myself with that. And if you want to talk about pack, the only thing I would ever speak about when it comes to that was my being uncomfortable with sleeping with somebody and talking about my celibacy, which wasn't shown. That's why me and Leah were so comfortable. That's why we talked about how, you know, moving in, we're gonna have some bound, some boundaries. Well, going all the way from several years ago and that's not a joke. So you're no longer anymore right now I'm not, no.

[Nick Viall]

Were you guys celibate?

[Derek]

So we did not have sex.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Derek]

But we did mess around once.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Derek]

It's not hard.

[Chris]

Not oil.

[Derek]

Not a big deal. Not a big deal. But that's he digressed. But yes, I've heard that alliance thing

[Teresa]

and I mean, I'm not trying to

[Chris]

like, if you want to stir the pound, if there's a word packed. No, I hear you.

[Nick Viall]

Anyone else wants to speak on this thing that Teresa brought up?

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Can we get a definition of celibacy?

[Derek]

I need to know what.

[Jorge]

First of all, celibacy. Celibacy and abstinence are two different things. Celibacy is a lifestyle. Like a nun or a priest means I'm never going to go there. I'm not going to be romantic, I'm not going to do anything. Abstinence is for a set period of time, like you're saying, well, for religious reasons or for my own clarity, I'm not having sex until this set period of time or this event. So like with Vanel, she was saying she's abstinent, so there's the difference. It's often confused. But celibacy is a nun or priest. That's not what we're dealing with here. Abstinence is what we're dealing with on here. And you could be abstinent for a damn day. You could be abstinent for, you know, a reason. As you all know, all the men, we have close relationship. And I've talked to Chris and I, he even said when we in Vancouver to me, yo, I'm struggling. I assume that's something that between them and they talk just like I assume any of our relationships. It's funny that the ones that have broken down, it's communication and it's not age, it's communication. And the ones that are succeeding are they're seemingly able to communicate. Now I do feel, I mean, I Think Theresa and John, look, they loved on each other. I think everybody loved on each other. I do think that Leah deserved, you know that and I do think that, I think that the best of Chris would do that for whatever reason that he checked out. The one person that you owed to tell I'm checking out is to her. But that's. This is a life thing, man. We all make mistakes. So I always still give Chris grace, but I guess it's a learning experience. I mean this is the ride or die, you know what I'm saying? So I mean my first protection was just like his was with Teresa and his was with Libby and with Pfeiffer and with Vanessa. I think all the women kind of sense that yo they had men that were in it with them and I think Malia thinks she ghosted her and I just think it's a learning moment. It's all.

[Chris]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Nick Viall]

We do have to move on and we want to get to our happy couple. But we do have one more big announcement to make that Chris, you will be on next season of Perfect Match. Do you hope to find your love there?

[Chris]

Yeah, that's the plan. That's the plan. I, I messed this one up a little bit. I'm still grateful. And Leah, to close that, I thank you for where we're at. Thank you for, for speaking your truth and hearing me. And I'm sorry for where we're at and how long it took to get here. But, but yeah, that's the idea. And, and I'm going in with the same mindset. I'm going to try to be myself. I'm going to try to be open, try to talk to, you know, as many people as I can authentically. And if I find love, what a blessing.

[Nick Viall]

Can we expect a different Chris?

[Chris]

I hope so. I hope you see a more authentic Chris. I hope you see more of me and more of my character.

[Andrew]

For sure.

[Nick Viall]

I'm speaking truth. All right.

[Chris]

I am myself. And on this show I've been myself. I was struggling with speaking my thoughts and I hope that you see a better communicative Chris on the next one.

[Jorge]

Okay.

[Natalie Joy]

For Vanessa and Logan's 20 year age difference, they found love as hot and passionate as the fourth of July, even if it took a little while to ignite.

[Host/Narrator]

And as we always say here at the vial files, all you need is love, some pink lipstick and a confusing fake out proposal.

[Nick Viall]

That proposal was one for the ages.

[Chris]

It was.

[Jorge]

It really was.

[Natalie Joy]

I mean, you've been engaged four times today.

[Vanessa]

Oh, the Best one. Best one. You can't beat that one.

[Nick Viall]

In your previous four proposals and no shade. Cause I had a few engagements before I met my lovely wife. But in your previous proposals, did you ever say, my friends were right about you?

[Natalie Joy]

I should have trusted my gut?

[Libby]

Yeah.

[Jorge]

Yeah.

[Vanessa]

No, I did not say that.

[Natalie Joy]

Okay. Okay. Have we set a wedding date? What is engagement looking like for you two?

[Logan]

No, we haven't set a wedding date. We're planning to move in first, and our bogey's next fall. So either she comes to Dallas or

[Chris]

I go to Ohio.

[Logan]

I've looked at jobs in Ohio or we start somewhere new. So that's kind of our bogey.

[Nick Viall]

Well, I mean, again, I think, you know, watching it back, a lot of people didn't believe in you guys. Did you guys break up during filming ever?

[Derek]

Was that at each other or something?

[Vanessa]

We had a little. We had a little bump in the road.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. A little bit about my history. I would go on, like, three dates with a guy and want to. Like, one little thing would go wrong and I would run away. And I did that with Chris. You know, when I was talking to Chris, I was like, yep, that's it. I'm out of here. And then I caught myself doing that with Logan over the whole optics thing, you know, Like, I was ready to shut down. And I had a come to Jesus moment where I was like, this is what you always do. You shut down, you push someone away, and we had a good conversation. And I was like, okay, you know, there's a good guy behind here. I'm not gonna run away. I'm gonna push past my limitations.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, well, again, you guys, you know, you're here today, you're engaged. How have you been able to make this relationship work?

[Logan]

Constant communication, constant understanding and compromise on both sides. I'm not gonna lie and sit here and pretend like it's all been roses and butterflies, because it hasn't. I mean, you know, we're in a distance relationship, and it's been tough. And what you see on the show, you know, you see a lot of turmoil and a lot of up and down, but that's. That's. It's translated into real life. But at the end of the day, we've always come back and met each other and strengthened our relationship. I mean, we have gone through a lot of shit in the past nine months. When I say a lot of shit that she had. Her best friend died, and in August, her aunt, her closest aunt died right before January 1st. My dad lost his leg a Month back from filming, I tore my Achilles. Three months from being back in Vancouver, I got surgery a month later, and then I retored again last month. So, you know, we're facing all these hardships, but somehow we've managed to stay together. And, you know, it's really. It's been awesome.

[Nick Viall]

Do you feel like you've both been able to really show up and be a team in those difficult moments?

[Vanessa]

You know, I've been sitting here, I've been listening to, you know, I'm older, these ladies were older, these guys were younger. You know, he's shutting down. He's not able to talk. He shut down. He wasn't able to talk. Does that happen with Logan? Sometimes, yes. But he's always able to pull himself back up after the bootstraps. I mean, he crashes out, I crash out. We both crash out. But the end of the day, like, we always come back to each other, you know, and it takes. It takes a lot of maturity on his part. It takes a lot of patience on my part, you know, and patience on his part, too, you know, but he's always showing up for me, and I'm showing up for him.

[Nick Viall]

I've been actually thinking about this a lot as I just reflect on my life and things like that. But they always say, like, who you marry is a really important decision. It will change your life forever. And I look back and, like, where I was before I met Natalie, and just in every measurable and meaningful way, I have so much more in my life. I'm curious, since you've been with Vanessa, how has she changed your life for the better?

[Logan]

She's helped me approach things in a way that I knew certain areas of my life weren't going to be the same forever. Like constantly going out with my friends on the weekends and just looking for the fun thing to do, you know, I know that's, you know, how you live your life in your early 20s isn't necessarily like, that's. That's a short era. And, you know, since being with Vanessa, she's pulled me in a direction that I always knew was there for me, but I wasn't necessarily following that road. And since being with Vanessa, I've started thinking more of what's down the line. What do I want more for myself? Am I doing some things short term or doing them long term? So she's helped elevate me in ways that I've wanted to do myself, but I haven't been able to.

[Natalie Joy]

The conversation of children was brought up when you met your Parents. Your mom was very much vocal about how much she wanted her grandkids. Has that been a topic of discussion since you've been out of the bubble?

[Logan]

Yeah, well, we already got Gypsy Rose, so.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, that's my little shit, too. She has black hair.

[Libby]

She looks just like her dad.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, yeah.

[Logan]

No, and we get a lot of practice. We try every time we see each

[Vanessa]

other, it's all that Fourth of July.

[Logan]

Yeah, right, right.

[John]

Fourth of July.

[Nick Viall]

Couple minutes.

[Chris]

Multiple times.

[Nick Viall]

How did you feel about the world hearing that moment?

[Teresa]

Moment.

[Jorge]

He knows we know, baby.

[Nick Viall]

Let him know I know.

[Vanessa]

It was the first time. First of all, I haven't been with anyone in a year. I don't know how long it's been for him. So it's been a long time.

[Nick Viall]

And tell him how it is now.

[Vanessa]

Obviously, it's amazing now. Obviously, it's amazing.

[Nick Viall]

Well, the truth is, there's a tight window between. Come on. Versus, like.

[Logan]

Yeah, no, it had honestly been a while. And I'm not, you know, I was just trying to.

[Nick Viall]

You're super into your women, you know.

[Jorge]

Yeah, I was.

[Logan]

I was ready to go and, man, when I saw that, I almost threw up. I started yakking.

[Jorge]

I was like.

[Derek]

I had to pause it.

[Jorge]

It was the other day, this was

[Logan]

Wednesday, and I, like, ran to the bathroom and I stood over the toilet,

[Jorge]

paused, and I had to catch myself. Say anything? Yeah, I just say that's how I do it. Yeah, that's how I should have done.

[Logan]

Well, they said, no, they're not going to play anything.

[Teresa]

It's just for, you know, safety.

[Logan]

It's safety.

[Derek]

Reason, safety.

[Jorge]

They got a mic the size of a dude.

[Logan]

It's like, what are you doing, man?

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, whatever.

[Natalie Joy]

He's made up for it.

[Libby]

He's made up for it.

[Derek]

We're moving.

[Vanessa]

We're moving past it.

[Nick Viall]

I think you just got to own it, man. Oh, yeah.

[Logan]

No, I don't care if this shit's firewall. Why do you think I put a ring on it?

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Jorge]

There you go.

[Vanessa]

I didn't get five. Five rings for nothing.

[Natalie Joy]

Is this the same ring that he gave you?

[Vanessa]

Yes, this is my ring. Yeah, we've had a little. I wasn't able to wear it. So anyone who's seen me in the last nine months, it was because of. We had to keep everything quiet for the show. So obviously we can't wedding plan. I mean, obviously. A, we've had all the things that we've been through. B, how do we plan a wedding when we can't even tell people about it and now, you know, things are out in the open and we can start to move forward and get things set up for the future.

[Nick Viall]

You know, Logan, you gotta close this thing, you know, or engagements, you can't. I know, right.

[Teresa]

I know.

[Nick Viall]

We gotta follow through, right?

[Jorge]

Okay.

[Logan]

Absolutely.

[Nick Viall]

In all seriousness, I am curious. During filming, you had opened up to Vanessa about feeling like she kind of talked down to you every once in a while. And maybe that came from a place of just lived experiences, but that is obviously something that I think couples in age difference relationships, whether they mean it or not, like, have to kind of find that balance. Like where one person might feel like, hey, I'm just like talking about my experience while the other person feels like you're being a little condescending. How have you guys been able to figure out that balance?

[Logan]

Like I said before, you know, it's the constant communication. And Jorge kind of touched on this a little bit earlier about how sometimes if you're not presenting things in the right way and you're getting feedback, then you gotta take a step back and pivot and figure out a way to really, really be understood with your partner. And I will say this. At dinner, they didn't show it, Nick, but at the dinner with the infamous dinner with Theresa and Leah, you asked me a question about a power dialogue dynamic at that dinner. It was a really good question. And Vanessa, Vanessa talked about it after because she felt some type of way about it. You know, she was like, dammit, Nick Viall. And we were cracking up about it. But it was really good because that was one of the things that helped me kind of show to her what basically, I don't want to say plead my case, but some of the influences that helped shape us because it's not always I can't do everything myself. Sometimes I feel a certain way when she says things and I need other people to talk to Derek about, hey, what am I seeing here and what am I missing? And other people to help guide you when sometimes it's just you and the other person all the time and you can't communicate perfectly all the time. So that helped.

[Jorge]

Can I just. You know what's funny is Logan snuck up to my room when we were in Vancouver because he was going through a moment, right? And you know what's funny is we all make joke. Would joke him like, y'. All, he's like, he and Vanessa, they ain't gonna make. Oh, he's a last minute shot. And they have withstood the test of time. And I think a large Part of it. I even think Vanessa touched on it. I'm amazed at the emotional maturity that he has shown. I mean, and he's gone through it, but he stayed the course. And his communication has been phenomenal. So, I mean, I think they're dope. I'm gonna be at their wedding.

[Vanessa]

You are? We're gonna let you officiate.

[Jorge]

Amen.

[Derek]

Wow.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. And the thing is, like, I'm super OCD and he's add, so it's like, you know, you put those letters together and it's some weird Alphabet soup, man. And Derek knows. He lives my life.

[Logan]

I show up on time everywhere, and it's hard.

[Vanessa]

And then sometimes it feels like I'm being bossy to him because I want him to hurry up and get ready or whatever. And he was on time today, though. He did really well today. I'm very proud of him. But it's fixing.

[Jorge]

I was gonna say he was late. No, he was.

[Vanelle]

No, that was.

[Vanessa]

It was only 10 minutes. That's early.

[Natalie Joy]

Logan, how did it feel? Obviously, Vanessa talked about, you know, she had this connection with Chris for a moment. Chris is your boy. How did it feel watching that scene back?

[Logan]

Oh, he's got awful. I wanted to punch him in the face. And then when she reposted on Instagram story, I was like, babe, come on. He reposted it. I was like, if you guys. If I see this picture one more time, I'm gonna crash out.

[Jorge]

And it's been 48 hours.

[Vanessa]

That's what they sent me. That was what the marketing said.

[Jorge]

You got a thousand pictures.

[Nick Viall]

That's the one you post, right?

[Logan]

I'm like, guys, can we please. I love you, I love you picture.

[Jorge]

You can.

[Logan]

You can market the show without that picture.

[Nick Viall]

But you posted a picture of you guys kissing.

[Logan]

I see her white fingernails, like, grabbing his face. I'm like, damn, dude.

[Nick Viall]

I'm about to.

[Chris]

When I called him and asked about the show, like, while talking about the scene, it's not so great scene. So I'm like, yo, yo. Like, you okay? How you feeling? Nah, bro, that sucked, dude. Seeing my woman kiss another man, I'm like, not even. I was like, oh, sorry.

[Jorge]

Right, right, right.

[Vanessa]

Hey, sometimes you gotta kiss a frog before you find a prince.

[Chris]

Oh, I'm your frog, dude.

[Jorge]

I'm your frog, bro.

[Libby]

Let me move out.

[John]

The way.

[Nick Viall]

We all would look around Vanessa, what do you hope people learn from watching you and Logan fall in love?

[Vanessa]

So, for me, you know, I've been thinking about this a lot. Like, you know, older men have Been dating younger women since the beginning of time, but older women dating a younger man is, like, still frowned upon in society. So, like, I'm hoping that people can see this and feel like this is okay and we don't have to be ashamed of it and that women could be, you know, have all of it together and be with somebody younger, and it doesn't diminish your value or your. The person you're with's value. I watched the whole thing yesterday, and at the end, everybody was talking about, like, the age difference and the age difference, the age difference. And honestly, the whole time I was there, the age thing just went right over my head. And I was like, was I supposed to be thinking more about this age distance thing? Because I wasn't. I was just, like, living in the moment without this person with a soul that I never, like, really thought about it, you know? And we got home, and I still never really thought about it. And then yesterday, watching the episodes, I'm like, oh, I think I missed something here. But I'm almost kind of glad that I was, like, oblivious to it because it was allowed me to put my guard down and not let outside influence affect me. And since I've been home, I mean, I had a 50th birthday party. I had 150 people there. He met everyone. Not one person was like, he's too young for you. They loved him. They thought he was the maitre d at the place.

[Jorge]

If age was a factor, then we wouldn't have all the connections that we have.

[Vanessa]

Exactly.

[Jorge]

I mean, the fact is, if age is a factor, it's funny to me, because then all of us would have been like, oh, no, just in talking, because it just doesn't work. But we dispelled that myth easily because people made connections and really lasting connections. I mean, and deep connections. And so then it became just relational issues. Relation has nothing to do with. So that's why all these people out there making their comments. I'm like, you're lonely. Why don't you go find somebody?

[Derek]

Okay.

[Vanessa]

You're at home in the computer by yourself.

[Nick Viall]

Right?

[Jorge]

Right.

[Natalie Joy]

Well, Vanessa and Logan, we obviously are just so happy that the two of you are still here together putting in the work. It is really beautiful to see.

[Nick Viall]

Appreciate that.

[Derek]

Thank you.

[Nick Viall]

Let us know when y' all set a go.

[Teresa]

Yeah.

[Natalie Joy]

Wait, why can't we officiate?

[Vanelle]

Yeah, you should.

[Vanessa]

Maybe we should do it.

[Jorge]

I've actually got a list.

[Libby]

All right.

[Vanessa]

We'll put you as one of the events.

[Host/Narrator]

I'm no pk.

[Jorge]

No but you're good, though.

[Vanessa]

We'll be the party planner. He knows what's up.

[Nick Viall]

All right, well, before we send you all on your way, does anyone have any final thoughts or things they want to share?

[Vanessa]

I do. I'm very, very grateful for this experiment. I was single for about four years before I went into this. I was abstinent for about a year before I went into it, and I was moving forward that I, you know, I didn't want to do that until I found somebody I really loved and I wanted to be with. And, you know, I don't know. I said this on the show, but my mom had cancer. She was sick for two years, and she passed, like, kind of before the show. And this just really saved me, and I don't want to cry. I'm not a crier, but this just really saved me. And Logan saved me, and I prayed for an angel every day, and. And he was. Here he is.

[Natalie Joy]

Your mom would be so proud.

[Vanessa]

She would love it.

[Natalie Joy]

You've carried yourself. You've been true to yourself. You've been so strong, so brave throughout the whole process. So you would be very proud.

[Jorge]

I think thanks to Age of Attraction, because Age of Attraction, what it gave us was so much more than just even our own connections, the connections we made, men, women. I think it's like the gift that keeps on giving, and it dispelled myths that I always believed in. So I think the Age of Attraction was an amazing experience. Wouldn't, you know, wouldn't trade it for the world.

[Derek]

And I wanted to give a shout out to Logan. We live in the same building in Dallas, so. And it was not really seen on the show, but I had my question marks about them. But I've seen him grow so much, and he'll come knock on my door with a bottle of wine like, no need to talk to you, for sure. And I think that that takes a lot, man, to say, you know what? I don't understand this part about, you know, the relationship. Can you help me as a big brother? So I've seen him grow through that process, and I'm proud of him.

[Logan]

Appreciate it.

[Derek]

Grateful for you.

[Nick Viall]

Anyone else before we wrap?

[Jorge]

Okay.

[Natalie Joy]

Okay.

[Nick Viall]

Well, I just want to thank all of you for your vulnerability showing up. Obviously, this show means a great deal to us, and what this show's about means even more. You know, age obviously can play a role in relationships, incompatibility, and certainly can play a role in how we communicate or how we don't communicate, but that's what I love. So much about this show. It's more about our compatibility and how we work through some of these issues and acknowledging that sometimes age does play a role when it comes to love. And are we going to allow it to be the end of our relationship or something we work through. So, to me, this show is more about understanding how we work through our challenges and our relationships. And. And I just want to thank you all for being so vulnerable and open.

[Derek]

Thank you.

[Vanessa]

Thank you, guys.

[Nick Viall]

You will always mean a lot to us. We certainly hope for many more seasons, but you guys will always be number one in our hearts.

[Vanelle]

Better say that in five years.

[Natalie Joy]

Well, I think that just about does it for the Age of Attraction season one reunion.

[Host/Narrator]

Thank you so much to the entire

[Nick Viall]

cast, our team, and Netflix for giving us the.

[Host/Narrator]

The opportunity to do this.

[Nick Viall]

It's been so much fun.

[Natalie Joy]

And always remember, age is sometimes just

[Nick Viall]

a number and sometimes it's not. But that's love for you.

[Natalie Joy]

Thank you, everybody.

[Host/Narrator]

Bye.

[Vanessa]

That was great.

[Natalie Joy]

Good job, guys.

[Host/Narrator]

And that's a wrap.