E1134 - Ask Nick - 30, Unmarried & Stressed Out

Summary

The Viall Files

Episode E1134 - Ask Nick: 30, Unmarried & Stressed Out

Release Date: June 1, 2026
Host: Nick Viall
Guests/Co-hosts: Natalie Joy and “the Household”

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Episode Overview

This “Ask Nick” episode revolves around dating and relationship dilemmas brought in by listeners, with a particular focus on the pressures of being unmarried at age 30. Nick offers candid, practical, and sometimes tough-love advice to assist callers navigating difficult breakups, friendship dynamics, and the emotional toll of romantic uncertainty. The episode is laced with humor, empathy, and honesty, with listeners reassured that their real-life struggles are not unusual or shameful. Nick’s coaching style focuses on self-reflection, choosing happiness over “being right,” and embracing the messiness of emotional life in your late 20s and 30s.

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Main Segments & Key Insights

1. Divorce, Betrayal, and the Struggle to Move On

Caller: Mary, 39
Topic: Navigating a difficult divorce & regaining trust in future relationships
Timestamps: 05:50–54:43

Background

• Married 4.5 years, two young kids.
• Husband disengaged after kids, discovered “cruel” texts about her to his family/friends while pregnant.
• Marital therapy only brought surface-level temporary changes.
• Conflict intensified when Mary’s job situation changed, and communication devolved to formal emails.
• After Mary nearly quit her job (with mixed signals from husband), their relationship broke down, and their therapist eventually dropped them.
• Divorce proceedings revealed his secret, repeated strip club visits and spending (up to $30,000 in 24 hours), along with charges for lingerie/flowers likely related to infidelity.
• Mary feels betrayed, struggles with resentment, worries about reputation/friend circle, and fears being jaded going forward.

Notable Quotes

• “We got fired by our therapist in the nicest way possible.” (Mary, 17:21)
• “Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?” (Nick, 25:03)
• “You confuse standing up for yourself with people agreeing with you.” (Nick, 37:47)
• “If someone comes to you with that accusation, tell them the truth. But until that happens, I wouldn’t.” (Nick, 34:54)

Key Discussions

• Nick calls out Mary’s urge to control the narrative with friends and ex-in-laws; urges her to accept most people naturally take sides or withhold judgment, and that vindication (“being right”) rarely brings peace.
• Suggests that her ex’s family will almost always take his side, and that being “the person you want people to think you are” is more effective than character attacks.
• Validates her anger and loss, but warns against acting from resentment or to “get even.”
• Encourages Mary to focus on therapy, self-reflection (including being open to ways she might also need to grow), and to resist labeling her ex as a “narcissist” merely to win allies.
• Grounded advice on letting go: “You could still very much be emotionally invested in this relationship with your ex if you choose to be … You gotta let this shit go.”
• On reclaiming confidence after betrayal: “Relationships are scary and hard and complicated and often disappointing … No one's as good reading people as they feel like they are.”
• Offers practical suggestions for dealing with gossip: only correct the record if directly confronted, otherwise, let false narratives go.

Memorable Exchange

• Nick: “I get the impression you’re pretty good at standing up for yourself.”
  Mary: “I think I feel that because every time I would stand up for myself … everything was always turned around on me.”
• Nick: “Standing up for yourself is like leaving a toxic relationship that isn’t serving you. Standing up for yourself is defending your character when your character is being attacked, but not assuming it will be.”

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2. The “Ex-Best Friend” & Social Exclusion

Caller: Molly, 28
Topic: Navigating friendship loss and group dynamics after introducing a friend to new social circles
Timestamps: 59:22–109:46

Background

• Molly formed a fast, intense friendship (“ex-best friend” Emily), introduced her to boyfriend’s friends, then found herself gradually excluded as Emily got closer to that group.
• Despite reaching out and expressing hurt at the waning connection, Emily was affectionate but noncommittal (“I love you and miss you too,” but behavior didn’t change).
• Routine group invites dropped off; Molly noticed boyfriend kept getting invited while she didn’t.
• Molly struggles with feelings of exclusion, old wounds from childhood bullying, and guilt that she might be “taking boyfriend away from his friends.”
• Recently rekindled hope after a music festival hangout, but again received no follow-up.

Notable Quotes

• “We were basically ‘dating’ in a way—a friendship as intense as a relationship.” (Nick, 68:59)
• “You're focusing on what you don't have, and not appreciating what you do have.” (Nick, 94:01)
• “All I'm saying is try not to be the person who doesn't want to take shots with the group but is frustrated the group doesn't think you're the most fun person to be around. If you wanted to be more fun, go take the shot. But you don't want to take the shot.” (Nick, 108:43)

Key Discussions

• Nick reframes the dilemma: the core wound is not exclusion from the group, but loss of intimacy with the friend. Grieving that loss is harder than just moving on from the group.
• Questions whether Molly has unconsciously over-personalized the group dynamic or internalized old insecurities (“trauma from friendship stuff that's showing up in this friendship”).
• Suggests focusing on being “easy to be around,” showing up when invited, and not waiting for “the right person” in the group to initiate inclusion.
• Recommends therapy as ongoing emotional maintenance (“therapy works better as maintenance than reconstructive surgery”).
• Concludes: it’s natural that close friendships wane as priorities shift (careers, romantic partners), that not all relationships are meant to recur at prior levels of intensity, and that being comfortable with one’s own choices (rather than seeking validation/inclusion) is key.

Memorable Moment

• Molly tears up recounting her childhood bullying and sense that “this is a weak spot” despite overall life progress.
• Nick reassures her and reminds her: “Between prioritizing a romantic relationship, a career, and friendships, I think you're prioritizing the two more important things. Assuming your relationship goals are to not like, grow old with friends so you can go to Burning Man together.”

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3. “Should I Be Worried About Being Unmarried at 30?”

Caller: Ali, 29
Topic: Approaching 30, dating burnout, attachment issues, and feeling “behind”
Timestamps: 114:05–134:17

Background

• Ali voices concern that turning 30 unmarried makes her feel “behind” compared to friends who are married/having kids.
• Reflects on a four-year relationship (ended amicably after struggles, including long distance and a failed engagement ultimatum), several situationships, and tendency to get emotionally attached.
• Shares details of latest connection: met “sexy cowboy” online, had a great first date with deep conversation and strong chemistry, but he said upfront he’s “not looking for a relationship.”
• Despite that, they hooked up and Ali feels strong hope/attraction, but is aware she might be moving too fast and setting herself up for disappointment.

Notable Quotes

• “I looked into his eyes, and I know there’s a connection.” (Ali, 117:58)
• “You have to be aware of your choices, and you have to be honest with your choices.” (Nick, 127:06)
• “He basically told you last night he’s not looking for anything serious, and a few hours later, you end up at his place and you have sex... Right now, he’s very much in the driver’s seat.” (Nick, 128:07)
• “Is this about having fun tonight or is this about getting to know someone?” (Nick, 131:31)
• “The more in control you are with your emotions, the more attractive you will generally be to men.” (Nick, 132:32)

Key Discussions

• Nick gently calls out Ali’s pattern: tendency to move quickly, confuse chemistry with connection, and hope for more despite clear signals otherwise.
• Offers real talk about the reality of dating apps and the “unicorn” standard (the elusive tall, fit, emotionally available, ready-for-marriage guy).
• Advises that “playing the game” (being a little mysterious, less immediately available) is more attractive in early stages, especially with men who say upfront they’re not seeking commitment.
• Reassures: there’s no single “right” way, and Ali hasn’t done anything wrong if “YOLO” is her priority—but if she wants a commitment, you can’t keep unintentionally giving away all the power and then feeling powerless.
• Validates her feelings of being “behind,” but reframes her life achievements in a positive light.

Memorable Moments

• “It’s even crazier that you’re at his Airbnb talking to me right now; that makes this call, like, fascinating.” (Nick, 127:07)
• Ali laughing, “But I’m crazy, Nick!” in response to the in-the-moment scenario of doing her call from the guy’s borrowed Airbnb after a first date hookup.

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Thematic Takeaways

• On Being “Too Right”: Multiple segments highlight the pain and limitation of needing to be “right”—in divorce (“Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?”) and in social circles (“making a bunch of assumptions and trying to get ahead of it”).
• Friendship Growing Pains: Adult friendships often become casualties of new romantic or career priorities; attachment styles, old trauma, and “intimacy withdrawal” are recurring themes.
• Dating at 30 and Beyond: Social pressure to “keep pace” is often arbitrary; authentic self-reflection, clarity of intention, and boundaries are more valuable than any timeline.
• Dealing with Gossip/Judgment: You can’t control other people’s opinions or the stories they tell—focus on showing up as the person you want to be known as.
• Therapy as Maintenance: Mental health needs tune-ups just like physical health, especially facing transitions, breakup, or lingering emotional “weak spots.”

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Timestamps Quick Reference

• Mary’s Divorce Story: 05:50–54:43
• Molly’s Ex-Best Friend Dilemma: 59:22–109:46
• Ali and the 30s Dating Blues: 114:05–134:17

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Notable Quotes Recap

• “Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?” — Nick (25:03)
• “You confuse standing up for yourself with people agreeing with you.” — Nick (37:47)
• “You're focusing on what you don't have, and not appreciating what you do have.” — Nick (94:01)
• “The more in control you are with your emotions, the more attractive you will generally be to men.” — Nick (132:32)

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Tone: Nick mixes empathy with blunt honesty, using humor and vulnerability to help callers see their issues in a new light. He frequently urges people to step back from “winning” social battles, reassures that adult friendship/relationship struggles are normal, and encourages growth through self-awareness—not by controlling the perspectives or actions of others.

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking all the nuance and compassion of the episode without the non-content (ads/intro) sections.

Transcript

[Nick]

Father's Day is coming up and I couldn't be more excited. But we also know that Father's Day is one of those hard holidays to shop for the fathers in your lives because you know, what do you get them? What do you get them? You know, you always ask dad. It's like, oh, I don't want anything. Well, give the gift of love and amazing memories not only for the fathers in your life, but for the whole family. With Storyworth. I got my dad a Storyworth gift a couple years back and we're still talking about that gift even today. Storyworth is a personalized storytelling gift service that helps families capture and preserve stories by sending weekly prompts and turning them into hardcover books. Here's how it works. Each week Storyworth sends a question about his life. He can respond however he wants. Email, voice recording, even a phone guided call. No apps, no logins. It's super tech easy. No tech nightmares. It's designed so he can focus on storytelling, not figuring out technology.

[Nick's Wife]

At the end of the year, all of the stories are compiled into a hardcover book with his words, his photos and his life. So it's so fun to go back and like relive everything that they've been through with them.

[Nick]

Well, our family is popping up more and more grandkids and it's something that over the holidays we crack open that Storyworth book and we share some stories about our parents childhoods. It's always nostalgic. Everyone in your family will absolutely love it this year. Give dad a gift that captures who he really is before the stories get harder to remember. Father's day is Sunday, June 21st. Order right now and save up to $20 at storyworth.com v I a l l Save up to $20 at storyworth dot com v I the v House is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing a budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try that progressive.com progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Prices and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Mary]

You're crazy.

[Nick]

What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Ask Nick. I think we've done one of these intros in a while. Have we? Just like, we just go into the calls now. We just play the music and get in the call. So this is like different, you know, especially if you've just started listening to us. Nick, anytime recently we've talked more about incorporating some intros. Maybe Some people might be grown. Oh, I like just the call. Just the calls. But there's been some thought about have, you know, shorter, keeping it focused. Maybe there's some things we can learn. Maybe. Maybe there's themes. I don't know. Let us know in the chat, in the comments. Let us know in the comments. Anyways, but we're here to let you guys know. Maybe you've already seen it, but I launched a sub stack and I think especially you, Ask Nick. Listeners will really enjoy the substack if you listen to Ask Nick. Obviously you are listening to either hearing people's stories, their relationship problems, their challenges. Some of you might listen to hear my thoughts and feelings or advice that I give. I hope some of you have at least found it somewhat useful and beneficial. But I've spent a lot of time with the podcast, obviously, thinking about what we want to talk about, conceptualizing it. You know, when I get done with, like, callers and, you know, sometimes their stories will remind me of ideas or relationships through the advice I give them. And someone is often just like, in my head. Lately I've been kind of jotting notes and putting. Collecting my thoughts and like, sometimes I'll, like, come on the show, especially if you listen to Reality Recap, and I'll be thinking about watch Summer House Reunion. And I'll be like, oh, what? This made me think of this. And then we come in and. And then we have a full household and we have a guest. And depending on the day or the, the vibe, you know, like, sometimes it just like, you know, I always, sometimes I'm left with, like, you know what? I could have been more nuanced there. Anyways. I have found that, like, with substack, it's a different medium. It's a different way to communicate to you guys, the audience. And I think it's going to be a space where I'll probably, like, you know, probably be a little more vulnerable. I think that's the hope to be a little bit more vulnerable. I think I've been thinking a lot, obviously, as a father who's about to be a father of three girls under three. But I think now, you know, it's interesting, you know, if you. I don't know how long you guys have been listening. I'm sure it varies. Some of you have been listening since I've been starting this podcast when, when I was a single guy. And I think the themes of, like, obviously the advice I give through Ask Nick has been generally consistent. But I am sure if you go back and look back, I think obviously that varies and changes as my life has changed and obviously now I'm really entering fatherhood. And I think now it's like now when I think about these dating concepts, now when I get callers, you always like, what if my daughter. Or when my daughters are in these positions and things like that. And I think I was just playing around with an essay, you know, obviously listening and watching the summer house reunion. It made me think about, like, man, if, you know, what happens with my daughters when my daughters find themselves in this situation. And by situation that Sierra finds herself in, I mean just like, mostly focused around, like, being emotionally invested and stuck on someone west who doesn't really, like, see her worth and doesn't, you know, treat her like, know the person that she is and. And how that, you know, really gets us stuck. I kind of thought about it in those terms, and I wrote. I wrote something, and then it made me think, maybe I'll start a subject. So here we are. I really think you guys will enjoy it, especially you guys. Listen to Ask Nick. I really hope that you do. I hope that you get to know me in a different way. Even if you are a critic of mine, I'm sure you'll get a kick out of it. I probably will open up and explain myself more on Substack, which I know some of you, uh, especially the haters, would love to see that from me. If you are interested in signing up, just go to the show description. However you are listening to this episode, the show description has a link to the substack, so just go right there, check it out. I think you'll really enjoy it. Uh, it's been a lot of fun working on this. This stuff, and we'll put out some essays every week and maybe do some relationship Q and A if we can. But I hope you're here for the essays. Anyways, we have some great calls lined up for you, and I hope that you're excited to listen to them and because here they are. Bye. Bye. How's it going?

[Mary]

It's going well. My name is mary. I am 39 years old, and I am asking for advice on how to navigate my divorce.

[Nick]

All right, well, tell me about it.

[Mary]

We've been married for about four and a half years. We have two young children. Things were pretty bad in our marriage for a while. We had a really rough first year of marriage due to nobody's fault. But then after having our first child, he just kind of disengaged. During that. That time, I found cruel text Messages about me to his family and friends while I was pregnant with our second child. We were in therapy. We were working through it.

[Nick]

What were those cruel messages, out of curiosity?

[Mary]

Well, essentially he was upset that I wasn't going to a family friend's wedding. I was very sick, as well as our, at that time, one year old son. And I didn't feel that it was smart for me and him to get on a plane to fly to a wedding that we would just be stuck in a hotel room for. I told my husband, you should go to this wedding 100%. He went to the wedding. I looked through messages on his Apple watch that he had happened to leave at home, and I found all sorts of messages between him and his family and friends saying that he felt that I was just trying to make up excuses to not go to the wedding. Sending screenshots of the fact that I had door dashed medication for me and my son to our house, and that I had also, like door dashed breakfast to myself the morning he left, saying that, you know, my spending's out of control and that he doesn't understand what my issues with him are because he lets me do whatever I want. And then he also is saying to his friends that maybe he'll just hit up a strip club while he's in. While he was in Chicago for this wedding. And also saying things like, wifey's gonna hate me even more after baby number two. I was currently pregnant at that time. Just really horrible, awful things. I'm literally like super sick with our son taking care of him so he can go to this wedding and pregnant. And he is just raking me over the coals. When I had felt that a lot of these issues, I wasn't even aware of them. He hadn't even talked to me about any of them. So I obviously felt really terrible and horrible and realized that I couldn't.

[Nick]

So you knew about the strip clubs before you got divorced?

[Mary]

I did not. I just thought this was an offhanded comment that he had made. Just kind of being angry, like, oh, maybe I'll just hit up a strip club while I'm in Chicago. I just thought he was kind of.

[Nick]

You didn't really? You didn't?

[Mary]

No, I didn't. I swear. I had no idea.

[Nick]

Did you address these messages?

[Mary]

I did, yes. I decided that I couldn't pretend that I hadn't seen them. So I wrote him a long email and I copied our therapist on it and essentially said, hey, I recognize I broke your trust. I went through your emails. I saw all of this information. I knew that he would be angry about this and that he would make it about the fact that I looked through his messages and not the actual issue. And I said, please try and keep these things separate. Which, of course, didn't happen. He tried to make it all about the fact that I broke his trust and looked at the messages on his Apple watch.

[Nick]

Why'd you're a therapist?

[Mary]

Well, our therapist in our therapy session, she asked him, hey, what'd you get from this email that she sent? And he said that she wants me to help out more at home. And my therapist kind of looked at him and said, that's all you got. So he again, just made it all about the fact that I broke his trust. He said, hey, people say things when they're mad. I was frustrated. I was angry.

[Nick]

Okay, so that was his excuse.

[Mary]

That was his excuse, yeah. Things were really terrible. I had actually said, hey, I'll have the second baby myself. I'll do it myself. I feel like you don't have much of an interest in being a father at this point. I have a great group of people around me. Like, I'll walk away. I'm not forcing you to do anything. If you don't want to be a family man anymore, that's your prerogative. But I deserve to know. He suddenly changed overnight. We didn't actually, like, talk about things or work on things. He just changed overnight.

[Nick]

Changed in a good way or a bad way?

[Mary]

In a good way. In a good way. Literally overnight. I tried to basically not look a gift horse in the mouth, be like, okay, well, he changed, but there wasn't actually any work that happened. He just changed.

[Nick]

What do you mean, work?

[Mary]

Like, we didn't talk. It was one day. We had a horrible therapy session. And then the next weekend, he was suddenly stopped going to therapy. We did stop going to therapy because his behavior changed. And then our daughter was born, and things were very crazy and busy, and I again, just kind of was like, all right, well, things are good. Hopefully. Maybe he just realized he was wrong and didn't want admit he was wrong. And so maybe things will be good from here on out.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Mary]

And I had even told my therapist. I was like, you know, I'm a little concerned. If he can change that quickly for the. The good overnight, he can change back. But hoping that that didn't happen, but unfortunately it did. I went back to work after maternity leave, and my boss has said some pretty, like, discriminatory things to me. And so I suddenly saying things like, you have to decide if you want to be a career woman. We have concerns about your availability. If your kids come into your office while you're working, you should tell the nanny that she's fired. Things like that. I was feeling very disillusioned and felt that, you know, leaving the job was probably the best thing. And I even told my husband, this is our decision. It's not just my decision. The day that I was going to quit my job, he seemed super moody. And I even, like, messaged him that morning, like, hey, everything okay? Is this about me quitting my job? You know, it's my. It's our decision. Not just my decision. He was like, everything's fine. I just didn't sleep well. You know, we can talk later. And I said, okay, well, you know, I'm quitting my job today, so if it's about that, could you let me know? And he didn't say anything. So I quit my job. My bosses were blindsided, so they said, hey, why don't you sleep on it? Let us think about it, too. Don't. Don't tell anyone yet. Basically, just let us digest this. So that workday ended, and literally he sent me an email at the end of the workday telling me that he felt that he was not part of the decision.

[Nick]

Why are you guys emailing each other?

[Mary]

Because we do not have good. We did not have good communication in person.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Mary]

And so, yeah, it was the best way for us to communicate in a way that we got our thoughts on the page without being interrupted, without being misconstrued, giving time to think about things. That's kind of where you guys actually

[Nick]

reading the whole emails.

[Mary]

I. I mean, I was. I was. To be clear, we didn't typically email each other. This was, like, the second occasion. There was that huge one where I looked at his messages, and I emailed him about that to put our therapist on it. And then there was this instance.

[Nick]

So anyway, he's. He emails you and like, yo, I don't feel like I was a part of this decision.

[Mary]

Yeah, I feel like I wasn't part of this decision. I'm not mad. I'm disappointed. I'm proud of you for standing up to your bosses. But basically, like, you will make sure your credit card is paid off by the. Like, you leave your job, all of your expenses will be run through a debit card hooked up to, like, your account. Just really demeaning. I felt like he was acting like my father about expenses, essentially. So I was kind of blindsided and just like, okay, so here, here we are again. You know, the carpet ripped out from underneath my feet. I emailed him back and just was like, hey, this is crazy. We literally talked about this. I don't understand how you felt like you weren't part of the decision. He didn't answer me. And literally the next day I was just like, okay, I feel like my marriage is probably almost over. I can't not have a job now. Like, I need a job. I need to make sure I have an income for me, for the kids. So the next day I basically told my bosses, nevermind, that was last April. And then I told him, so are you still.

[Nick]

You're still at the same place I am?

[Mary]

Yes.

[Nick]

How did things work out with your employer?

[Mary]

They weren't expecting me to have quit. And so the fact that I did and then I kind of opened up to them about what was going on, why I had to take my job back. And suddenly they were. They changed their tune and were super supportive and wonderful and great. And for me, going through a potential divorce, I was like, I don't if they'll just leave me alone for a while while I deal with the transition and everything going on in my emotional life, I would like to stay somewhere that I've been for many years, that I know I'm good at job, that I'm stable in this job. So I kind of just let it go for as long as they would leave me alone. When my husband and I finally talked, you know, I said, why would I have quit my job if I felt you weren't supportive of me? I gained nothing in the situation. I quit my job. I look like a flake, you know, I took my job back. Our marriage is now like in the dumpster again. I lost credibility at work. I embarrassed myself. Like, why? Why would I have done this? Why would I. If I just wanted to quit my job and not care what you thought, I wouldn't have taken it back.

[Nick]

What do you say?

[Mary]

Essentially it was like he looked up therapy speak, and everything was like, I'm sorry you feel that way. I just don't feel like I was part of the decision. I felt like I was talking to a robot. So we get a new therapist. And even she essentially said the same thing to him. Hey, don't you think that if you were feeling iffy about her quitting her job that you could have just communicated that to her even that morning when she asked you? And he was essentially acting as judge, jury and executioner by saying, well, I knew if I told her I Didn't want her to quit, that she was going to say this or she was going to say that and I didn't want to deal with it and her emotions would be this. And I said, well, you never gave me the opportunity to react. How do you know what I was going to do?

[Nick]

I mean, you just, you got your job. I mean, you didn't even, you didn't even end up quitting.

[Mary]

Exactly, exactly. And so my whole thing was, I can't trust you because you're not supportive. I was also going through a super tough time with quitting my job, with what they said to me, and now you made it worse. I'm kind of out here by myself on this island trying to navigate all of this while you're still telling me that I'm in the wrong. And I'm just saying, could you have communicated with me? If you had told me that you were feeling iffy about me quitting my job, I would have been happy to put it on nice for a little bit. You know, nobody is excited to just have that conversation with people they've worked with for 12 years. But I said, there's no way for me to prove that because you didn't give me that opportunity. But again, just look at the evidence. Why would I do this?

[Nick]

I mean, at any point was he.

[Mary]

No, he wasn't acknowledging at all. He was essentially just saying, basically. Did you not think about how this would impact our future and the money you're putting into a 401k? And he acted like if I quit my job that it would be this huge financial blow to our family. But I tried to be respectful of that. And I said, that's why I try to have a conversation with you. That for your opportunity to. I can't read your mind. This is your opportunity to talk to me about that so we could talk it through. And you didn't do that. So he essentially had just like this one sided conversation in his head.

[Nick]

So that's, I mean, is that ultimately what started the divorce?

[Mary]

So that was in the summer. And then our therapist basically told us that we were too much for her and kind of dropped us, recommended a couple other therapists.

[Nick]

You both got fired by your therapist?

[Mary]

We got, we got fired by our therapist in the nicest way possible. She was just like, I just, you know, I think that you need somebody with more specialization. Essentially.

[Nick]

Before we started recording you, you told me you thought your ex husband's a narcissist.

[Mary]

I do.

[Nick]

What do you feel like you could have done any different like, where did you go wrong? I'm curious.

[Mary]

Honestly, I felt that I was very communicative with him.

[Nick]

I'm just like getting fired by a therapist.

[Mary]

Oh. It was because, well, he told our therapist that he thought she was siding with me because she had told him, like, hey, don't you think you could have just had a conversation with your wife about this and maybe things could have gone differently? And he finally was like, yeah, yeah, I guess I could have. We just weren't going anywhere. It was, we were spinning. She seemed kind of green as well.

[Nick]

Okay, so like, let's fast forward to the divorce.

[Mary]

Yes.

[Nick]

How? And how can I to your original question. How. What do you need help navigating? Is it regard.

[Mary]

So, so, yeah, obviously therapy intensive didn't work either. All of a sudden one day he said, this isn't going to work out. I just don't think we're going to work. So it was just again, kind of pulling the carpet out from underneath my feet. I was just like, okay. And so we had the session with our therapist who was like, hey, maybe you guys just started this work with me. Like, maybe you should give it a little bit more time. At one point he closed his eyes to the point that the therapist was like, hey, it seems like you're kind of checking out. He was just shut down, totally shut down.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Mary]

And I told him, hey, I'm willing to keep working on this, but if this is what you want, like, you can't unring this bell.

[Nick]

And why were you willing to keep working on it?

[Mary]

For the kids. I just couldn't even really. I didn't want to think about a life where I had to go even one day without seeing my kids. If we could work it out, I. I wanted to. When I was hoping to re meet the man that I initially married, I thought that maybe he was in there somewhere.

[Nick]

That makes sense. All right, so like, what about the divorce has been difficult for you to process? I mean, obviously divorce is difficult, but what are you having a hard time navigating?

[Mary]

Once I knew for sure this is where we were going, I actually felt a huge sense of relief. But then through the divorce proceedings, we obtained his financial statements and found that since last March, even prior to me quitting my job, before things had really gotten bad, he had been visiting a strip club, sometimes dropping as much as $30,000 in a 24 hour period.

[Nick]

Oh my God.

[Mary]

Yeah. Which I actually, I was in denial about it. I didn't think that this could possibly be true because of everything I felt in our marriage that he could potentially do. I said, cheating on me in any way is something he would never do. He would never do that. He would never, ever do that. I just didn't even think that that was a possibility. And then I went through all the charges, and I also found charges for lingerie, which was returned two days later, but still, it was there. And also a couple of flower pictures bought in return.

[Nick]

Lingerie.

[Mary]

Yes. Yep. Yeah. So

[Nick]

it's weird.

[Mary]

It was like an online. Yeah, it was an online thing because once I saw the strip club charges, I went through the statements myself, and if I saw a charge I didn't recognize, I googled what it was for, and that's how I found it. And then there were also some flower purchases that didn't line up with, like, birthdays, anniversaries, death in the family, and they all came after, like, a couple days after a strip club visit. So I don't know if he was

[Nick]

sending flowers to a stripper.

[Mary]

That's all I can assume. I don't know. But it was weird. And so realizing that he was on my case, acting like he spent basically more than I make in a year on strippers in a year. And he shamed me for quitting my job, acting like that that would put us in this financial hole. So I found out more about his character after we were already going through the divorce. So it's like, okay. Not that I needed more confirmation that this is the right thing, but, wow, I had no idea this was going on. And I looked at all the dates of the strip club visits, and I was able to confirm that they were all during times he said he was golfing or he was staying at the hotel, the airport hotel, the night before a work trip, because he had an early flight the next morning. Turns out he was at the strip club. So he had just been lying to me about this for at least the past year, probably before. So I'm struggling with the fact that I didn't even clock it, that I truly, truly thought that he would never do this to me. And I always have prided myself on having a very good read on people and even him. Like, I could.

[Nick]

Psychic.

[Mary]

I'm not a psychic, but I feel like there are many instances where I could almost predict how he would react to something, what he would say, what he would do. And I was always right. And I always just had a really good radar for people. It just makes me so nervous now for the future, when I try to date, to not be jaded now that I See what can happen to let somebody in your life and they can just, like, wreak havoc like that. It makes me want to be alone forever, but I also don't want to be alone forever. So I'm really nervous about how do I. How can I just trust my instincts again? And then, like I said, the second part was telling his family.

[Nick]

Why do you think you should tell this family?

[Mary]

Because I have to still interact with them because of our kids. And I'm pretty sure he probably told them a bunch of lies about me, which are untrue. And so I know that's my ego talking, but is this.

[Nick]

Are you. So you still interact with this family?

[Mary]

Yeah, I have to.

[Nick]

How do they treat you?

[Mary]

Pretty neutrally at this point.

[Nick]

Okay. Are you comfortable with how they treat

[Mary]

you at this point? But I feel like there are other people, I guess, family and friends, because there are other people that used to be in my life because they were part of that, I guess, social circle that don't really, like, reach out to me anymore. And I know that that's going to happen in a divorce, but.

[Nick]

Yeah. Do you care? Do you. Are these people.

[Mary]

I do.

[Nick]

Because you want to be one.

[Mary]

Some of them were friends. Some of them were friends I made because they had kids, so they were kind of mom friends. And I'm just.

[Nick]

Why can't you reach out to them and be friends with them?

[Mary]

Well, so I got a new phone number, for example, and I reached out to some of them to say, this is my new phone number. And, like, they didn't even reply to me.

[Ali]

Me.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Mary]

So I'm worried that he told them false things about me to smear my character, essentially. And that's. That doesn't sit well with me, especially when he's the one who was out there essentially at. At the bare minimum, emotionally cheating on me with a strip club, but also probably physically cheating on me as all the while berating me about.

[Nick]

So what do you. What. What, what. What are your. What's your goal moving forward?

[Mary]

My goal is to ideally try to preserve some of these friendships that I once had. And also wanting to feel like I have respect from his family just because I have. I think he probably told them that I'm bad with money or something like that, and that's why we're getting worse.

[Nick]

Is there only two goals?

[Mary]

Well, I'm also trying to figure out then in the future with dating. Okay, you know, how.

[Nick]

What about just, like, generally being happy? Is that a goal?

[Mary]

Well, I feel I am happy. That's part of It I'm happy now that I'm not with him anymore, but I don't want to isolate myself for the future and just not put myself out there again at the risk of somebody coming in and ruining that.

[Nick]

Certainly no one wants false rumors being spread around about them. But one you don't even know what, if any actual false rumors are being spread about you there is that you may not be wrong that he is lying. But if he's a liar and if he's already spreading false rumors about you now, what do you think he's going to do when you retaliate? Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? You know, I would ask yourself that question and I would ask yourself, how is this going to make me happier? I don't know. Being right often doesn't make us happier. Understand, you want to be civil with your in laws and things like that, but you're never going to get them to take your side and you're never going to get them to like have them like you more than him. And you're never going to get them to, you know, tell you things like, oh, he made such a mistake. It's most likely not gonna happen. So what are you gonna get out of telling them? This stuff about him, you know, is kind of the qu. How are you helping yourself? How are you protecting your peace? I would slow down and answer those questions and make sure you have a clear answer before you do that. Otherwise it's just going to be more dramatic and drama is entertaining and it's gonna keep you invested. But I don't know what where you get out of that. You do have two kids together. More than anything, I imagine you want to preserve the relationship your kids have with both of you.

[Mary]

Yes. So I think that's part of it, I guess is because things are just so formal with his family and knowing that I'm gonna be interacting with them on a daily basis. I was hoping to be able to have more of a real relationship rather

[Nick]

than a your relationship starting over with these people. And I feel like you're going to have a best chance of having the relationship you want by just being easy to be around, being kind, not being messy. It's going to be difficult for them to be around you if you are constantly trying to get them to take your side.

[Mary]

I understand. That makes sense. What about the friendships that I feel are kind of falling through the cracks?

[Nick]

Remains to be seen. I would same advice like, certainly you're probably gonna lose some friends. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? And I guess at the end of the day, you don't want to be friends with people who don't want to be friends with you. You might have to be comfortable with the unknown for a period of time, but for the people you want to maintain friendships with, maybe you have to make. Keep making an effort and see what

[Mary]

happens if one of them does happen to reach out and they end up asking, like, hey, what happened with you guys? Should I even tell them what I found out?

[Nick]

No, no. Why would. What. What's. What's going to happen, do you think?

[Mary]

I think maybe partially. I feel like it's. It's hard to have a conversation where I feel like I'm being authentic when somebody is saying, what went wrong in your marriage? Why are you guys essentially having to communicate through a parenting app instead of via text message?

[Nick]

Why? That's just kind of. Those parenting apps exist for the same reason that, you know, because divorce is messy and hard and people take sides. Again, listen, I guess my point is it sounds like the real friends that you have, the people who are your friends, and they were your friends already, and they're still your friends, you have confided in them, you have told them, you've opened up to them, you've been heard. The people who you're debating whether you should tell. What I'm hearing is like, it's kind of like that. You know, they're like. Like they're kind of his friends and your friend, you've been friends with them. And what if for a reason you haven't told them yet? I would listen to that voice inside because again, like, I don't think these are people who are these types of friends. And I think you're justifying, you know, like, authenticity is the excuse. What you really want is his friends to realize how much of a piece of you think he is. That's it. You want them to take your side. You want to be right. You want to be righteous, and you don't want to be thought of as bad or worse or whatever. And you understand that your ex husband's probably a bit of a liar and you're assuming he's telling his side of the story. And you don't like the idea that people who you were friendly with and friends with might have a different opinion of you.

[Mary]

That's true. But I feel like he's also been implying certain things. Like our neighborhood that I have since moved out of. There was a group chat that he has with all the Guys. And one of my good friends, her husband is on the group chat, and he sent out a message basically saying to pray for our children, which makes it seem like.

[Nick]

What did he say?

[Mary]

We're getting a divorce. We've been growing apart. Pretty sure she's out there smearing my name to everybody. Don't believe everything that you hear. Pray for our children. Making it seem like I'm being really shitty to. Our kids are creating.

[Nick]

Well, no, I mean, like, I think just from the story you told me, that tax makes sense.

[Mary]

Really?

[Nick]

I don't agree with him. I'm just saying from his perspective. I'm not thinking. I can't. How, you know, like, when you're. When you told me the story about the email, I'm having a hard time understanding, you know, believing your version of the story that, like, why didn't he just tell you not to quit the job? Type of thing? Right. It doesn't make sense. I don't. I'm. I can't wrap my brain around, like, his reason. I don't know. But I can wrap my brain around him sending a group text to his buddies, trying to get ahead of the fact that, like, I mean, by the way, you want to talk about him,

[Mary]

I want to tell the truth.

[Nick]

Whatever. It's still talking shit.

[Mary]

Okay, so you think I just need to take the high road, say we grew apart, things didn't work out.

[Nick]

Why does everyone need to know?

[Mary]

Not everybody needs to know, but people that I interact with on a regular basis. I guess it's hard for me to, like, keep this huge thing that I

[Nick]

just think you're gonna get further being the person you want people to think you are. I don't think you're going to win. In a game of both of you throwing fucking missiles at each other and assassinating each other's character. I don't think you're gonna win. Neither of you might win, but I don't. Like, I just don't think you're gonna win. People are just gonna take sides.

[Mary]

Through our marriage, I just kept my mouth shut about so much for so long, and now that, like, he's out there and I know he has to be saying stuff, it's just so hard to continue to just take it at one. At what point should do I stand up for myself?

[Nick]

If someone comes to you and says, I heard this about you, and you're like, what did you hear? And then they say a lie. Stand up for yourself. This isn't standing up for yourself. This is you making a bunch of Assumptions and trying to get ahead of it. What I'm hearing from you is you want people to hear the truth about who your husband really is. Is.

[Mary]

I do. Yes.

[Nick]

Not standing up for yourself. Standing up for yourself is like leaving a toxic relationship that, you know, isn't serving you. Standing up for yourself is. Is just getting back on your, you know. Yeah. Like defending your character when your character is being attacked, but it's not assuming your character is being attacked and. And. And getting ahead of it and assassinating your husband's character in case he assassinates yours. That. That's not. Not standing up for yourself, I don't think.

[Mary]

I guess, given the stuff that he said about me in the past, that.

[Nick]

What stuff?

[Mary]

Like in those messages to his family and friends about he thinks you're a

[Nick]

pain in the ass. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? That's what people think about their exes.

[Mary]

Yeah. She wasn't my ex then. Like, you did it together.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But you got divorced.

[Mary]

Yeah. So now I feel like it's not a hard line to draw, that he's probably saying even more stuff about me now. Maybe.

[Nick]

But, like, do you want to spend all your energy hunting down the people he might be talking shit to and trying to change their mind not only about you, but about him? How is that going to make you happier? And how is that going to help you move on? And how is that going to help you find what you're looking for in relationships? I don't. How is that going to. You know.

[Mary]

It's not. You're right.

[Nick]

And then the people you want to be friends with, like, do you want to convince people to be friends with you? Like, are people going to be friends with you because they believe your story over his. Most likely they're just going to think you're both kind of messy and crazy.

[Mary]

That's true. I guess I was afraid that he was telling. That he would be telling stories about me that make people question my character and then just decide to disengage. And that didn't sit right with me.

[Nick]

I don't know what he could be

[Mary]

telling him, but, like, I think he's telling everybody that I went and spent all of his money and was irresponsible and lied to him about it, because that's the story he kept telling me, which was totally untrue, when in return, he's actually spending more money in a night and in a year than I make in a year.

[Nick]

Well, listen, if someone comes to you with that accusation, tell Them the truth.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Nick]

But until that happens, I wouldn't. And I think the thing that's going to get your husband to talk about you is to him find out that you are telling your truth.

[Mary]

I have been taking the high road this entire time, and I guess I'm just getting really, really tired of having to take the high road.

[Nick]

Why do you need to keep taking the high road with him? Can't you just move on?

[Mary]

Well, I think there's a frustration that I feel like he just kind of got off scot free.

[Nick]

That's. Again, that's. That's the part you need to reconcile.

[Mary]

Like, I didn't even get to have a direct conversation with him about the fact that he essentially was cheating on me for a year, at least emotionally. Like when talked about it in our divorce, like, sitting with our attorneys, like, they totally just brushed it aside, like it didn't matter which I expected. But it's just really hard seeing that he did this and like, not even getting to kind of have my say with him about it.

[Nick]

What do you want to say to him?

[Mary]

Just how betrayed and how deceived I feel. And that he, our entire marriage crumbled because he based all of his problems with me on money, because that's all he had. He wanted to keep me as low as I could about money so that I didn't look too hard at him, only to find out that he was actually spending way more than that on strippers.

[Nick]

Okay, let's say he called in and. Or something. Or like you have a chance to say this to him. What do you. What are you gonna. How are you expecting him to respond?

[Mary]

I guess it's not even about an expectation of how he would respond. It's more about me knowing that I got to have, like, my words hit the air with him that he knows.

[Nick]

Why will that make you feel different?

[Mary]

Because I think it lets me get on the record stating, like, I'm not the one who wrecked this marriage. Like, I didn't ruin this marriage, you ruined this marriage.

[Nick]

And what will that do for you?

[Mary]

I think it would just make me feel like I. That like I stood up for myself. Like I got the opportunity to say, hey, I know everything that you were doing.

[Nick]

You don't think you've stood up for yourself with him?

[Mary]

I guess I have in the.

[Nick]

I get the impression you're pretty good at standing up for yourself.

[Mary]

I think I feel that because every time I would stand up for myself to him, whether it be in therapy or in a conversation with him, everything was always turned around on me.

[Nick]

That's not the same as standing up for yourself.

[Mary]

I guess it makes sense that if he didn't listen to me then he wouldn't listen to me now. It's just, I guess me, I get

[Nick]

a sense, and I say this with love, that you like to be right and need to be right.

[Mary]

That's true.

[Nick]

And you confuse standing up for yourself with people agreeing with you.

[Mary]

Yeah, I think that's an accurate inference to make.

[Nick]

And while your ex husband might be a piece of. And a liar, maybe even a narcissist, I don't think you're doing yourself any good by calling him a narcissist. He's probably just more. More accurately someone with lower character than you realized. Yeah, not everyone with low character is a narcissist.

[Mary]

I understand that.

[Nick]

And it really makes no difference whether he is or isn't.

[Mary]

No, it doesn't.

[Nick]

Your reasons that you're giving me to try to get me to almost agree to do the thing that you want to do and, like, by all means, do what you want to do. You're not being honest with yourself about your intentions and your motives, you know?

[Mary]

Okay.

[Nick]

And if you want to be right, I mean, like, you know, if you've listened to the show, you've heard me say, you want to be right or you want to be happy.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Like, this is the definition of. I think this is saying you should pro. You should buy the merch. I am someone who likes to be right, you know, so it takes one to no one. But, like, I think you will, you know, right now you're going through a difficult time, and it's probably feeling chaotic, and you're, you know. Well, I'm glad you're. I'm sure you're happy being out of this relationship. I don't think you're as happy as you let on. I think you're happy you're not with him, but I think you are, and rightfully so. I mean, you know, you're going through a lot right now. It's very dramatic. And you're in this transitional period, and it's, I'm sure, scary and. And, you know, you have your friends, but you are, you know, you're not sure how. What people think and feel about you, and that bothers you, you know, because for someone who really likes to be right, the idea of people having the wrong impression of you is like, God has got to be the worst. You know, being right right now, I. I don't see a lot of scenarios when it brings you a lot of happiness.

[Mary]

I understand that. I think I just feel kind of resentful because I feel like I'm the one who has had. That has sacrificed everything. You know, I moved out of our house while he's staying there. You know, I'm living with a best friend. He didn't. Because I wouldn't be able to afford that house even after a divorce, so. And he can. So that's why I moved out. So I'm living at my best friend's house while he gets to live in our house.

[Nick]

And then that sucks.

[Nick's Wife]

That.

[Mary]

But then also the fact that when we were married, I felt like I was single parenting the entire time.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Mary]

And now he has 50. 50 custody. It just sucks that I feel heartbroken not being around my kids half the time while he gets to go and have his parents and whoever God knows who else help take care of the kids while I'm over here by myself. Like, I just feel like he just is getting everything that he wants while I'm just like giving up everything that I had, even though I'm not the one who tanked everything. It's just. It's frustrating and I guess in some way I want him to get his.

[Nick]

Yeah, listen. And all valid. It sucks. It does suck. It sucks. You have a right to be angry. You have a right to be hurt. You're. You have a right to be sad. I don't think you're going to do yourself any good favors by using that anger and resentment as the driving force for the decisions you make.

[Mary]

How do I get over that resentment then? Like, how do I just, you know, I gotta heal.

[Nick]

Time. Therapy. I mean, I would, you know, definitely therapy. I would make sure you have a good therapist. I do talk through about this stuff. Have friends that can hold you accountable and give yourself grace. But, you know, time, honestly, time, it's like, this is raw, you know, and it's going to take some time, but you have to. You have to let go of the anger at some point.

[Mary]

I'm trying, but I feel like he's like everything I do, you know, even me moving in with my friend. He told me that I was taking the kids to an unstable environment when he's the one who fired the nanny to bring someone new in.

[Nick]

Why is it unstable?

[Mary]

It's not. He just didn't. He essentially was angry because he thought that he was going to lock me into having to get stuck into a lease for an apartment for a year and spend a bunch of money on that during these Proceedings. Because that's what he wanted me to do now, because.

[Nick]

Why did he want you to do that?

[Mary]

Because he doesn't want me to have anything. That he doesn't want me to come out on top at all in this. The whole. He is so angry that I get any. He didn't say it to me, but he doesn't want me to have any of his money. He's mad he has to give me anything at all. So he wants me to have to spend it on something I don't want to spend it on so that I can't put it towards a down payment for a house that I actually do want.

[Nick]

I would just be careful. Like, unless he said this to you.

[Mary]

I saw some notes that he had written down on our initial custody agreement, and he had a lot of stuff in there about how do I keep her from coming back to me for more money, which I would never do. Actually, the whole thing was I was spending my own money for things for the kids and for my. Myself while we were married.

[Nick]

Yeah, that makes sense. But what does it have to do with this whole narrative about you being certain about what he does and doesn't want you to have?

[Mary]

Well, just from our entire marriage, the fact that he didn't want me, like, literally.

[Nick]

I get it. Listen, you have every right to be super angry and hurt. I'm just like. And. And it. And. And what you're going through makes a lot of sense. I'm. I'm just trying to. I am trying to advise you. You called. If you're interested. And you do not have to take my advice, by all means. I haven't gone through divorce. I'm not a divorce lawyer. I'm not an expert, but I do think I have a pretty good beat on these types of stuff. And what I am good at is helping people get unstuck when they're convinced they're right about certain things. And again, I just want you to find peace and happiness going forward. And I would just be careful about, like, these narratives you're coming up with in your head to keep you stuck. And it doesn't matter if he wins. I don't. What is winning? Like, you know, what's the cliche? You know. You know, living your best life and being happy is you winning.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And whatever he thinks of you is really none of your business outside of sharing kids together. And of course he doesn't want you to have his money. And of course, he doesn't want you to get, you know, like. No. No one. You know, of course. Like, of course. And you have every right to be mad about how he was as a husband and resentful about it, but you are divorced.

[Ali]

Almost.

[Mary]

Well, trying to get there.

[Nick]

You know what I'm saying though. But like, he's no longer. You're not in a relationship with him that you're trying to fix. You don't need to be. Right. And I think just accepting that he is not the man you married and that you don't want to be with him and being content with that is kind of the best you're gonna get. You know, you could still very much be emotionally invested in this relationship with your ex husband if you choose to be. And a lot of people choose to be.

[Mary]

I don't want to be.

[Nick]

You got to let this shit go. You got to stop convincing yourself that you're justified to disparage his name because he might be disparaging yours. If you want the people to take your side, just again, be the person you want them to think you are. Be easy to be around. Be kind. You know, you're working your job. If he's out there saying, oh, you spend all this crazy money, don't spend crazy money. You know, be practical. And you know, again, like, also, I don't think you should care about what people spend your money on. But like, people will see that, you know, like you will. His in laws will be a part of your life to some degree. You know, people will see, you know, and he could talk his shit or whatever, but I think, you know, again, you also have to assume that his mom's going to take his side and that his family is going to take his side.

[Mary]

I think everybody always thought very well of me and let them when we were together, but I think that he's now telling them things that people are like, oh, my God, I never thought that about her.

[Nick]

You can't control that.

[Mary]

I can't control that, but I felt that I could control that. They know it's not true.

[Nick]

They can't. You can't though. You can't. You can't. Like as a public figure and who has a show and, and things like that, I, I, I, I can't control what people say about me. And they say a lot, you know, and is it, is it frustrating? Sure. You know, does it get, it, does it get to me from time to time? Of course. Do I have conversations with myself in my head, like, you know, debating strangers about the merits of why I'm right and they're wrong? Yeah, I'm human. But I have to, like, check myself and I have to recognize that it's not my problem, it's none of my business, and there's nothing I can do about it. And I can either just, like, prioritize what's important to me, my wife, my family, you know, like the people who do know me, you know, And I could show up just being the person I want people to think I am and just let the chips fall where they may, you know. But you're spending an awful lot of energy, first of all, coming up with narratives you don't know are true. Second of all, like, can, you know, making sure people know you're right. And it just. That doesn't lead to a lot of happiness.

[Mary]

A lot of it does just come from feeling like I was the one parenting our kids and actually wanting to be with the kids all the time.

[Nick]

And now again, like, so as far as your kids go, kids are smart. And at the end of the day, you're not going to convince your kids of anything by telling I don't want them. I'm just saying. I'm just saying you're not. By telling them. But I'm using it as an example for the other people in your life. Your kids will gravitate to the parent who shows up for them and that they can rely on and they can trust and they feel safe around. And hopefully it's the both of you. But if it's not, it won't be because one person convinces the other. There might be some people that you're your. Your ex husband successfully convinces them you're a piece of. But most people will be like, I don't know, she seems fine. I just also, people know you got divorced. People know divorce is messy. People know that people talk. You're not giving the people in your community the benefit of the doubt that they just know that, like, you know, they probably should take both of you with a grain of salt.

[Mary]

I don't even know if some people know, like, he was still. But why is he posting pictures, like family pictures at Christmas, like, people not knowing, like, people coming to me and being like, oh, I thought you reconciled. And I was like, no, that's what I'm saying.

[Nick]

Your narratives aren't even adding up. You know, we spent most of this conversation you being convinced that he's talking about you, and now you're telling me that some, a lot of people don't even know you're getting divorced. So, like, how could he. He's definitely not talking, you know, well,

[Mary]

that was A month after.

[Nick]

Now, at this point, you know, you get one. You get what?

[Mary]

I know. I know. I. I understand that. No, you're right. I need to just let it go. And I just have to figure out.

[Nick]

I would also, just as a thought exercise, I would be open to the possibility of. Of. Of. Of identifying places where maybe you were wrong in life. I don't think you acknowledge it as much as you. I think it's a. I think it's a bad habit.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I'd be willing to bet that he, Your husband has some criticisms of you

[Mary]

that are fair, I'm sure. Okay. And I never claim to be a perfect person. I just didn't.

[Nick]

But, like, actually acknowled things are. Is something I bet you haven't done. It's easy to say I'm not a perfect person because no one is. But to actually identify and own the things that you need to work on is a whole different exercise. And I don't think you are very good at that.

[Mary]

I think you're probably right about that. I guess I just didn't feel like those things were marriage ending things.

[Nick]

I'm not saying they are. This has nothing to do with your marriage, you know, but this is. Has to do with the fact that, like, it just. It gets exhausting needing to be right constantly. And for the amount of that you need to be right, people need to feel balance with people, especially if you're often right. I mean, I'm often right, you know,

[Mary]

that's how I feel.

[Nick]

You know, but it gets exhausting with people just like. Because again, to your point, everyone's human and it's just like, okay, great. Well, you're not. You're not always right.

[Mary]

I guess that pretty much leads to why I'm concerned about dating in the future. Because I felt like I was right about him the entire time when I turned out to not be right about him because I didn't think he'd ever cheat on me. He did.

[Nick]

Yeah. Listen, the short answer is relationships are scary and hard and complicated and often disappointing. No one's as good reading people as they feel like they are, you know, because you're. You know, people can lie and sometimes people are good liars. And part of being in a relationship is trusting someone and you choose to trust. And when you give someone your trust, it makes it easier for them to betray your trust because you're not like, questioning everything. That's just the risk of love. But yeah, I do think as far as you dating, you being open, the possibility that, like, you're not as right as you think you are and might help your dating life a little bit better. I definitely wouldn't be talking shit about your ex husband. I would get through this divorce first before you even worry about dating. And I would focus on being a great mom and a great employee and, and, and, and show up and be the person you want people to think you are. And that doesn't guarantee that they will. But that gives you the best chance because like what you want is if your husband is talking shit for how you show up in these people's lives. I want it to his story to not add up up.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And that's the best chance you got for people believing you over him. If you are just as messy as him and are talking shit they're just going to be like at best you're both crazy.

[Mary]

I guess that's what I've been banking on up to this point is just that I haven't been saying anything except to my very close friends, family. I guess the results will come far in the future in my relationships with people. But I guess right now it's like I want a reward for taking the high road and I want you reward

[Nick]

will be your happiness.

[Mary]

No, it's hard. You know I'm in it, in it right now. And so that's why I really wanted a total outside perspective.

[Nick]

Listen, what you're going through is very difficult. So give yourself grace and you know. But I focus on being happy and not right because there are no medals for being right in adult life.

[Mary]

No. You've given me something very valuable to think about. I think that I have heard over the years that I do like to be right. And this is the most direct way somebody has put that to me. And to have somebody who doesn't know me at all be able to pick up on that kind of is an eye opener for me. I have more fodder for my therapist now I know really what I need to work on.

[Nick]

Try not calling your husband a therapist a narcissist. If you people it has nothing to do with him but is a catch all for you guaranteeing people side with you. It's a buzzword. And you and that desire to be right that's like you making sure in case this person doesn't believe me. I'm just going to throw out there that he's a narcissist because then people will I'll be right.

[Mary]

That's not why I would say it but I understand it doesn't help anything. So I just need to essentially tell people it just didn't work out.

[Nick]

And it may not be why you believe he's a narciss, but I do think it's why you tell people he's a narcissist. Because why did you need to tell me before we even. You know, it's like I didn't like you led with that.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Like before you got into the details, you're like. Just so you know.

[Mary]

I guess I felt that it just tells a lot of the story without like telling the story.

[Nick]

Yeah. But you want me to see your side. You know, I'm just, just.

[Mary]

I do. I do. You're right. I do want you to see my side. That's correct.

[Nick]

That's a good exercise on being okay with just not being right and being open to hearing a different point of

[Mary]

view or even being right, but being okay with other people not knowing.

[Nick]

It's hard for us to see the forest of the trees with our own.

[Mary]

No, it is. I've always been good at giving other people advice. Not so much myself.

[Nick]

So welcome to the club.

[Mary]

Well, thank you. I really appreciate that. I look forward to seeing more sidewalk chalk art by you. I enjoy seeing that.

[Nick]

I appreciate it. I hope to do more.

[Mary]

All right. Thank you so much.

[Nick]

Take care. All right.

[Mary]

All right. Bye bye.

[Nick]

What's up everybody? Don't forget that all Vile Files plus content is ad free. Plus for all. You ask Nick listeners out there, your update specials are ready and waiting for you. I know you are very interested on the follow up calls. What has happened to these people after they heard my advice? Did it help them? Did it hurt them? Has their life changed? Well, you can find out on Update plus and you can get Update plus behind Vile Files Plus. So go to viles.com to sign up shop. You will be glad that you did. Well, you know how much my wife loves shopping.

[Nick's Wife]

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[Nick]

How's it going?

[Molly]

Good. How are you?

[Nick]

Good. What's your name?

[Molly]

My name is Molly. I'm 28 and I texted my ex best friend happy birthday. Do I try to repair the friendship or move on?

[Nick]

Tell me about the friendship.

[Molly]

So we met about two years ago and it was kind of a. It was a quicker friendship than I had like made in the past.

[Nick]

I'm assuming it is a woman.

[Molly]

Yes. Yeah, we can call her Emily. I started dating my boyfriend about six months into our friendship and I introduced her to my boyfriend's friends and she kind of dropped me for them and I kind of don't know what to do now.

[Nick]

What do you mean she dropped you for them?

[Mary]

She.

[Molly]

After I introduced her to them, she just established really quick and really strong friendships with them and I started hearing from her less and less and now I haven't heard from her since October.

[Nick]

Do you still have the same boyfriend?

[Molly]

Yeah, we're still together and he's still getting invited to things and I'm not.

[Nick]

Explain that to me.

[Molly]

So these were his friends from Chicago and they all moved down to A new city that we're in now and they're like more like party friends, going out friends. But they're all in this like big group chat. It all just feels very high school to me. But she is like now part of this group chat. They're all.

[Nick]

She's in a group chat with your

[Molly]

boyfriend and not me? Yeah. And it's like a big group of people.

[Nick]

Why aren't you in it?

[Molly]

I was never included.

[Nick]

Why doesn't your boyfriend include you?

[Molly]

That's a good question. I mean, I. It's hard because like he is very blase about these people and like when I. They're not like his closest friends and so he's like, oh, like they're bad people.

[Nick]

He says they're bad people.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I don't get. I'm confused.

[Molly]

I am too.

[Nick]

I mean, listen, regardless of who these people are, bad people, good people, your boyfriend interacts with these people. So whoever, whoever they are or whatever they're about, he fucks with them, right?

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And if I'm hearing this correctly, you made a friend. This friendship was about six months old, which is still very new.

[Molly]

Yes.

[Nick]

And then you met your boyfriend, hit it off, whatever, started dating. She met his friends through you. And yeah, like she hangs out with them. But I guess to me this is more about whatever issue you have. It seems like he more to do with your boyfriend than her. Possibly.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah. Because it's just more like. It's weird from here. What I'm telling. What I'm hearing from you is, okay, so. And I certainly want to hear more details, but yeah, you met a girl, you became friends, whatever, hang out. You guys were seemingly close. Like what was your friendship based on? As two, like mid-20s, some year old women. What drew you together that caused you in this short period of time to refer to her as your best friend?

[Molly]

I think at the time I was like really searching for a strong friendship, which I acknowledge because like I had some friends, but I didn't feel like I like really aligned with him a lot. And I felt like me and this girl clicked on so many levels. I felt really safe and comfortable with her. We had similar types of humor, like to do similar things. We both opened up to each other about a lot of stuff. And like, I know this doesn't mean a ton of things for some people, but like she came to like my family Thanksgiving and Christmas and she was around my parents a lot. And like our moms went to like dinner together and we like, did those like kind of like deep Bonding stuff pretty quickly. Okay.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Molly]

And it just felt, like, really natural with her.

[Nick]

And what would you two do for fun?

[Molly]

All kinds of things. We would go on walks. We would go get drinks. We would just hang out and get food. I would spend the night at her place. It was like. I mean, sometimes drinking was involved, but not all the time.

[Nick]

Okay. When did things change?

[Molly]

It started to change after I went back to school to get a second degree and, like, really get started on my career. And it always became, oh, you're so busy. Just let me know when you're free. And I felt like I would continue to reach out and I could continue to make time for her. And I, like, wasn't getting that reciprocated. And I tried for a really long time, and I would see her, like, on social media and stuff, like, hanging out with my boyfriend's friends, just, like, them without him in a smaller group. And ultimately I told her. I was like, hey, like, I love you. I miss you. I hate that we're not hanging out as much. Like, did I do anything? Because I. I wasn't sure, you know? And she told me that I didn't do anything. That she loved me and she missed me, too, and, like, just wanted to work on things. But then nothing changed.

[Nick]

She wanted to work on things with you?

[Molly]

Yeah. Like, wanted to, like, put more effort into our friendship and spend time together.

[Nick]

Did she text you back when I said happy birthday? Yeah.

[Molly]

Yeah, she did.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Molly]

So she said thanks.

[Nick]

Okay. That's it?

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah. Okay, so it's not like she's not ignoring you.

[Molly]

No.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Molly]

But I mean, I haven't. Like, she sent out invites to, like, a big event and did not include me, but included my boyfriend.

[Nick]

It was her event.

[Molly]

She was, like, organizing an event to, like, a. A show for What?

[Nick]

What was the show for?

[Molly]

Well, it was the rodeo.

[Nick]

Okay. But, like, was she. Did she get hired by someone to do, like. I mean. No, this was her event. Like, yeah. Why is she.

[Molly]

Well, she was just, like, coordinating a night to go to the rodeo.

[Nick]

And is there a world where she could have been, like, if you said something to her, she's like, well, I'm. Yeah, I invited you guys.

[Molly]

Like, but they send out, like, partiful invites.

[Nick]

What does that mean?

[Molly]

It's like a web service where you can, like, send out, like, invites and people, like, rsvp. So it's like, do individual numbers. And, like, I used to get these.

[Nick]

Oh, you used to get them? No, you're not getting them.

[Molly]

Yeah. And I don't get Them anymore.

[Nick]

Did you ask?

[Molly]

No.

[Nick]

Okay. What does your boyfriend say?

[Molly]

He says fuck them, I don't care. And like he doesn't go to things if I'm not invited to, so he hasn't seen them. And now I feel like I'm. It feels like I'm like taking him away from his friends.

[Nick]

But he says they're bad people.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Why does he think they're bad people?

[Molly]

I think because like he recognizes like their behavior and there's. They can just be kind of self centered and like catty, I guess the word.

[Nick]

His male friends?

[Molly]

Well, no, they're girls.

[Nick]

Oh, these are all girls?

[Molly]

Well, girls and like gay guys.

[Nick]

Oh, so you're. Okay, so it's not a group of bros?

[Molly]

No, it's. No, no. Sorry. That was probably important context.

[Nick]

Okay, so this group of friends that your boy that you introduced your ex best friend to is a group of girls and gay men.

[Molly]

Yes.

[Nick]

Gotcha. Gotcha.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So I. Where do you and your boyfriend stand, I guess on this?

[Molly]

He thinks that like he always sympathizes with me and I told him, I was like, hey, I wish you would like back me up a little bit more when it comes to them.

[Nick]

And how would you like him to back you up?

[Molly]

Like kind of, I guess say that some of the things that you said,

[Nick]

like, but your boyfriend's not going without you.

[Molly]

No.

[Nick]

And do you feel like he's sad about that usually?

[Molly]

No. But he did kind of make a comment recently of like wanting to hang out with him.

[Nick]

Oh. So like.

[Molly]

Because he, he has other friends that are like more like his close friends. But sometimes it's like nice to have like a big group to like go on and do things with.

[Nick]

But this group is women and gay men.

[Molly]

Yeah. And then sometimes like his other straight male friends will be included, but they're not like a core part of this other group.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Molly]

If that makes sense.

[Nick]

Kinda. It's just more like I, you know, listen, I, I don't. For whatever reason, your ex best friend, I mean, it's. Maybe it's just a product of. She thinks they're more fun. I don't know, you know, and available and you know, I don't know, maybe you're not as available as you want to believe you are.

[Molly]

That's probably true.

[Nick]

And it's, you know, maybe it's just one of those. Yeah, it's just like, you know, the shitty part for you, it sounds like, is that like when you met this girl, I'm guessing she didn't know a ton of people and I don't know. Or she was like, yeah, she was

[Molly]

new to my city.

[Nick]

Okay, so she's new. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. She's new to your city. She meets you. Here's this lovely friend. You were more available, you were single, you didn't have a boyfriend, you weren't going back to school. Very different. Your life was very different when you met this friend than it is now. And then six months into this friendship, she meets a group of people. And then subsequently you get a. You have a boyfriend now. So I'm guessing, and I hope that you were investing more time with your boyfriend than you were with her. Which, you know, it's. If that, if, if the amount of time that, you know, you were dating your friend for a moment. In a way.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, like when you meet, when, when a friendship starts that fast, especially in adult life, when you're single and it's that intense, there's, you know, like I, you know, I've said this a lot of times, you know, in, in, in friendships where it's like a straight man and a straight woman, you can be, you can be total friends, you can be, you can be platonic. But there are elements of that where you are replace. You know, like that person is filling a role that a boyfriend or, you know, or girlfriend might fill. Just those late night talks, going out to dinner with someone, someone, you know, just having that quality time. And when you meet someone that you really like and you want to invest in it, it's going to eat up that quality time. Right. And then subsequently it sounds like at the same time, you know, maybe she did have more in common with some of these people in this group. Or really it was just probably more just. I'm guessing most of them are single

[Molly]

in this group currently, two of them. But like, at the time, only one of them was.

[Nick]

Is it the women or the gay men?

[Molly]

The gay guy has always been single.

[Nick]

And then I guess the women's more specific.

[Molly]

Yeah. So the women have it in a relationship. Yeah.

[Nick]

Okay, but is their partner part of the group?

[Molly]

One was, but then they broke up into. Not anymore.

[Nick]

Is this like a party group? Are they like very like, socialite? So they're going out a lot? Is it just like.

[Molly]

I mean, they do party, but they also like, do other stuff, like active together.

[Nick]

Like what?

[Molly]

I mean, one of them is sober, so. Okay, but like they always like do like Pilates and go on walks and stuff.

[Nick]

Okay, well, listen, to whatever degree your boyfriend misses these groups of people and wants to hang out with them, the solution's easy. He can just bring you. If there is an element of you both feel like there is something there that you guys don't know where you are being rejected by this. This group, or like, you are unwanted, and maybe that's the case. It is weird that you're not getting this invite.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Whoever your boyfriend is closest with in that group, he could just ask. Or you could just ask her. You know, just point blank. You know, you could just be very mature about this. You know what I'm saying? Like, if you want to hear the truth, if you want to get to the bottom of it.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, if you need to know, you know that. Which I don't know if you do. Right. Like, I don't. Like, this is giving again. Like, I want closure for the. You know, the. From the guy who doesn't call me and, like, clearly, like, doesn't want what I want with him, you know? And closure usually is forcing someone to tell you something that's gonna hurt you, and you didn't really need to know that to move on. Yeah, there's that element, you know, it's just like, they aren't giving you what you want.

[Molly]

Want.

[Nick]

You don't know exactly why, but you know, they're not giving you what you want, you know, and that in itself should be enough to. To move on. I understand. Life isn't that simple, and sometimes we need to know. But if you want to, you could just point blank, just be like. Just be direct and be like. You could just call it out, you know, Instead of just asking, it's this guy. I want to hang out with you more. Then it's easier for her to be like, oh, yeah, let's. Let's try. What is that? You know? And then she cannot try. You could just be like, what happened to us? Like, why. Why am I getting why. Why is mat invites to things and I'm just not. I feel like I'm being excluded. And, like, that's fine. Like, listen, if. If. If I'm not wanted, I don't. Like, just. But I am curious. Could you just tell me, like, I don't want to show up to something with Matt where I'm not wanted, you know? And so, like, you know, it's like, you could ask her point blank. And if that's this. If you just need an answer. You need an answer to whatever degree that maybe you're overthinking this. I don't know. Your boyfriend. Yeah. Is the simple solution of Also, he could be, like. He could. I don't know, to the degree that he cares. It wants to hang out with these people. Maybe there's someone in that group that he feels close with or comfortable enough to ask the, like, why aren't you guys bringing or inviting her? Like, it's gotten to the point where it's kind of weird. Well, this is like a hangout group. They do. They're an active group. They do a lot of things. Whatever. Sometimes your boyfriend's invited when you're not.

[Molly]

Not.

[Nick]

Like, are they expecting him to show up without you? Like, to a rodeo? Like, rodeo's.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

How do you know that?

[Molly]

Well, no. Okay, that's not true. Because one of the other girls texted him and was like, oh, are you and Molly coming? And he just said that we had plans that night, which was kind of true. But I had told him after that,

[Nick]

I was like, hey, you were so. To an event that he was invited to, but you weren't. He received a text from one of those people in that group and asked if you were both coming.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

What am I missing?

[Molly]

It was like, the day before the event.

[Nick]

Regardless. Regardless.

[Molly]

Well, so the thing is.

[Nick]

But I think.

[Mary]

What.

[Nick]

Just to be clear.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

The assumption I'm hearing from that text is that you are welcomed and you are invited. Now, whether you got what you wanted or felt like you deserved, that text tells me that they thought that you two might come.

[Ali]

Come.

[Molly]

Yeah. And I like this girl. She has always, like, much been much more inclusive to me. Like, she's always inviting, like, me to stuff in the past, and, like, she's reached out to me. But I think it, like, kind of has originated from my ex best friend because she was the one that, like, sent out the individual invites. And so it makes me feel like in order for, like, us to be included more in the group, I need to repair things.

[Nick]

You want to feel wanted by her?

[Molly]

I want to feel not excluded, but. Yeah.

[Nick]

Well, you don't know if you're being excluded. Sure, you're assuming you're being excluded. You might be being excluded, but you know you're not feeling wanted.

[Molly]

Yes.

[Nick]

There's definitely a difference. Yeah, they both might be true. It's unclear that you're being excluded, and it doesn't seem like you are. If you were being excluded, I feel like you wouldn't get a response back. I don't think. Again, you wanted a. Oh, my God, thank you. I miss you. Are you free this weekend? You wanted to initiate and hear that from your former best friend. You didn't get that? You got a thanks. Which is, to me, sounds like you guys lost touch. For whatever reason, she feels that way. And yes, it's not as much of a priority for her to reignite that friendship as it feels like it is for you. And it might be just as simple as, again, she was just like, I don't know, she's just busier. And then organically, she just started hanging out with these other people and feeling. Just slowly feeling closer to them. And that's how it. And I'm curious, like, this ex best friend, like, when you think about her personality in your personality, like, how. How much do you guys really vibe?

[Molly]

So I totally understand why she's like, clicked with those people because they are very similar.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Molly]

And, like, I also understand that she, like, I'm just like, not her person. I'm good with that. I just don't. I don't want to feel like I'm like, separating my boyfriend from his friends. I understand, like, if he's a big guy. Yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

You just have to get on the same page with your boyfriend. Right. And doesn't sound like you totally are. Right.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

It also sounds like you're getting a little bit in your head about this friend group. Right. And to whatever degree that you are. I mean, have you ever. Have you had a hard time making or keeping girlfriends in the past?

[Molly]

Kind of. I mean, like, yeah. Yeah.

[Nick]

Why do you feel okay? Why do you feel like that might be?

[Mary]

I don't know.

[Molly]

I. I feel like I was, like, bullied a lot growing up and. Sorry. Like, it's okay. And like, I do have other friends besides her, but I think, like, this is, like my closest adult friendship, which was, like, made it kind of hard because, like, I have outside friends that I had good friendships with and like, I'm still friends with some people from college and stuff. So I do have some, like, longer term friendships. But I think it's hard because I kind of accepted where we were at in our friendship with my ex best friend and, like, I was fine. I had moved on. And then this past fall that we went to a music festival together and everything felt great and that, you know, we were doing all the things that we used to do and it felt very natural. And I, like, had, like, renewed hope in our friendship and she was like, oh, my God, I love you. I miss you. And then after that, I never heard from her again. And she went through, like, major life changes and didn't bother to tell me.

[Nick]

We're talking about the Same friend.

[Molly]

Yeah. Yeah. And after that, I was just like, you know, I kind of gave up, but I guess I just, like, have. I don't know if it's, like, guilt or my past trauma that makes me feel like I did something wrong, you know?

[Nick]

What are you talking about, past trauma?

[Molly]

Just, like, the experiences I've had with, like, friendships growing up and stuff.

[Nick]

Yeah. Do you feel, if I were to ask you, like, do you demand a lot of loyalty from friends?

[Molly]

No. I mean, I was. When she started hanging out with these people, I was really happy for her, you know?

[Nick]

Okay.

[Molly]

Because I understood, like, how they were more similar to her. And, like, I. I feel like I'm overall, like, a fairly easygoing person.

[Nick]

Okay, that's. Well, that's good. I mean, I. Yeah, I think it's a pretty common thing for people to meet people, become friends and introduce them to other people, and then feel almost excluded, you know, I think that. Yeah, I think that happens a lot.

[Molly]

Really?

[Nick]

Yeah. I've experienced that in life. I mean, I know. Yeah. I. I think it happens even more common with women. Like, in my experience, like, a lot of women I know, it's like they always seem to have one or two best friends.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Sometimes just one. And it's like, if it's a group of three, then there's usually be. There's usually, like, two of them who become closer. And then, like, there's someone who almost sometimes feels left out if it's. You know. And, like, there might be a group of five girlfriends, but within that five girlfriends, they're, like, paired off into, like, best friends, you know?

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And then sometimes with that, there are, like, girlfriend breakups. I mean, I've seen that a lot with, like, women I know in my life throughout the years, whether it's sisters, girlfriends, or just friends that are girls. Like, I feel like that's pretty common. The reason I asked about the demanding loyalty is that, like, a handful of people I've known in my life, or women I've known in my life that I've. That I've observed who have struggled with friendships. There was. And I don't. I'm not getting this vibe from you, but there was a level of intensity that they expected where being their friend from an outsider's point of view seemed. It looked exhausting.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Where it was, like, it just. They really. And I think it came from a place of insecurity, you know, And I don't, you know, like, some of these people, I knew enough about them, I spent some time with them. And they're the theme that, like, I'm thinking of two people in right now, in particular that I've known that, you know, over the past, say, 10 years. They were intense. They were intense to be around. Like they, you know, when you could tell that they demanded people's attention, they wanted to people to follow them, but they weren't the type of personality that people necessarily wanted to follow in a way. And then when they would see other girls bond, you could tell it bothered them. But is any of that sounding familiar?

[Molly]

Not really. Honestly, like, yeah, I. I do feel like I'm more of an introverted person. I'm also a person. Like, I don't ever feel like I want to be the center of attention, you know, recenter.

[Nick]

Attention is the wrong word. But, you know, maybe not. I don't know. But there was just an intensity to these people that it. It felt. I think they were fun at first. They seemed nice, but it got exhausting. These people would always get upset. Upset somehow in these groups. And eventually I think other people got exhausted by them getting upset.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Would these people ever say, oh, you know, Molly's. Gosh, she just always got, I don't know, she's always so upset with something.

[Mary]

I don't know.

[Molly]

No. Okay, well, listen, honestly, like, I, I mean, I work in health care and so I feel like I'm really good at. No matter like what's going on in like my like day to day life. If I like amount with friends, I'm gonna like put on a face and be happy. I'm not gonna like drag everyone down

[Nick]

with me, you know, Then that wouldn't be what I. Yeah, I. That would be the opposite of the two people I'm thinking of.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah. Maybe it's just like some past trauma, you know, that you're projecting onto this friend group and you're overthinking it and to a little bit. You're overthinking it, you know?

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You have this closest with this one friend, for whatever reason, she is not going out of her way to make you feel incredible. Included.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Right. You had these other women in this group that have gone like, oh, is, is Molly coming? You know, but like, you, that, that wasn't who you wanted to hear that from.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I wonder, had you got the invite from the friend, would you have changed plans to go to the thing that you guys said you were unavailable for?

[Molly]

Yeah, I was totally upgot.

[Nick]

So then why didn't you go? You know, I get, you know what I'm Saying, like, you know, you're.

[Molly]

That's.

[Nick]

That's where you're in your. Your. Either, like, don't with these people. Move on and like, keep your peace and. And yeah. Or. Or go and yeah. Make it easy to be reminder, like, that you're fun. Right. Reconnect. Like right now you feel rejected by this friend and you are sitting back and waiting for her to make a move. I understand you sent her a text saying her birthday, but you did just say Happy Birthday, right? Right.

[Molly]

Yeah. And I only really. I only really sent that because I felt pressured by a little bit of my boyfriend and also a little bit of like, my mom, my sister.

[Nick]

And like, they were like. Because you. I'm. I'm assuming you expressed to them it was her birthday and you felt a certain way, and they were like, you should just text her.

[Molly]

I told them it was her birthday and I was like, yeah, I didn't text her because, like, I don't feel like we're friends anymore. And they were like, oh, that's kind of. Of petty.

[Nick]

That's. Yeah, but that's the thing. You're. You're. That, you know, listen, you're an adult at this point, and that is not an adult move, in a sense. Yeah, maybe that's not a great way of saying it. I don't know. But I'm just saying, like, it's. Again, like, you. You. The. For. For six months, this. This woman was kind of your partner. You know, she was going to the. The holidays with your family. There was a level of intimacy that this friendship had that you chose.

[Molly]

Yeah, but I mean, my boyfriend was also there at that time.

[Nick]

So you. Your boyfriend was always in the picture?

[Molly]

No, but, like, he. When it was like holidays, he came to my family holidays and stuff still.

[Nick]

But who did you meet first, the friend or the boyfriend?

[Molly]

The friend.

[Nick]

Okay. Yeah, but I'm just saying there was still a level of intimacy there, right? I mean, if not, then what are you missing?

[Molly]

Yeah, no, sure.

[Nick]

You know, I was thinking, you know, now I'm going off some tangent, but in the context of I was watching the Valley, and then in the Valley, like, you got two. You know, Jesse and Michelle used to be married. Now they're divorced, and it's ugly and toxic. It's a reality TV show and whatever. And now Jesse's dating someone else. I think she's dating, too. And, like, they're hanging out with, like, each other in this friend group and they're making a TV show and they're bringing their partners and it made me think about, like, how we get over people and how we move on and what's the thing that makes it difficult to get over someone, Right? And when, you know, and to me, at the end of the day, it's the intimacy you used to have with someone. Right? Because sometimes there are people who you used to date where you're like, I can't believe I dated them. I'm like, oh, my God, I am so glad there's someone else's problem. Right? And so when you think of it to that lens, you'd buy their new partner a shot. You'd be like, thank you. God bless. Good luck out there, man. Man. You know, but to let. And to whatever degree that you don't, like, I was just watching this show, and I. I empathized with both of them to the degree that they have this child together. And, you know, someone who has, you know, a young daughter, like, having a child with someone is an incredibly intimate moment. You have this shit. You. You. You made something together. You made a human being, you know, and there's intimacy behind that. Sex is also a level of intimacy, you know, when you realize that that person is not available to you for physical intimacy. Intimacy. And that you can't have them. It hurts a little bit, right. When, you know, when you see them with someone else, it hurts when they're sharing that intimacy. And so what I'm, you know, clearly, this. This ex best friend, she is not. Like, she's not saying I, you know, she's. She's responding your texts, you know, like. But there is an intimacy with her that you no longer have, that you feel like she's sharing with other people, but she's definitely not sharing it with you.

[Molly]

You.

[Nick]

And that's the part that really hurts you.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Right. Is that, like, it's become more casual. And the whatever shared intimacy that you two have, you no longer have that anymore. And that's what's upsetting to you. Does that make sense?

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And so I think just acknowledging that will help you understand your choices a little bit better. And I guess to that degree, it does make you less petty. Right? Because this is not about not texting your friend happy birthday. You're just like, I just don't know. We're not what I thought we were. And we.

[Molly]

And.

[Nick]

And you're not what I want it to be with her.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And to that degree, you feel rejected by her. You know, it's just like, she'll still hang out with you, but she won't be intimate. With you anymore.

[Molly]

Yeah. And, like, I'm fine with that. I just.

[Nick]

Well, you know. No, you're not, but that's okay. But also, like, that's the part you want closure from, or you just want clarity from, and you're only going to get clarity from her by being direct with her and ask. Asking her. In the meantime, you are making this kind of confusing for yourself and your boyfriend and everyone else in this group, because you do have. You've recognized some past trauma with friendships. And to whatever degree, you're kind of projecting this or assuming or. Here we go again. And. And guarding yourself and protect yourself from being hurt.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, like, you got invited to this thing. You didn't go because the. Not the right person didn't ask.

[Ali]

Ask.

[Molly]

Yeah. Well, by the time that, like, the other girl said, oh, are you and Molly going? We had already made plans.

[Nick]

And I was like, that's not my point. But you acknowledge that if the right person asked, you would have figured out a way to go.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And a different person asked, and it wasn't enough for you to want to change your plans because you didn't feel wanted by the right person.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And so, you know, as far as the friend group goes, that part is. Is. Is. Is a. Just, you know, is. Is a disservice to you, and it's in. In you. And you and your boyfriend are kind of getting in the weeds of, like, who you're supposed to be mad at, how you're supposed to feel about this friend group as a whole. He wants to probably be protective of you, and so he's not hanging out with these people, but he's kind of missing them. But this is all rooted over how you feel about this friend who you had this intimacy with, you know, and with the. The friendship, that bond that you guys had that you no longer have. And I. You just need to clear that up with her or just accept that it's no longer that and anymore. And stop excluding other people in your life because you feel like she's picked them over you and they're all, you know what? I'm. Does that make sense? Because, like, because of the complication with this one friend and because she's with this group, you lump them all together. And if you don't feel welcomed by her, you don't want kind of anything to do with them. And that and kind of includes stopping your boyfriend from having anything to do with him either.

[Molly]

I mean, I have reached out to other people in the group, and I've tried to like, hang out with them, and it's always been, oh, I can't do that day, and then nothing.

[Nick]

Okay. But, like, are these people who are. You're really close with?

[Molly]

No.

[Nick]

Yeah. So you're reading into something where they're just like, oh, yeah, I can't. I know. I don't. You know, like, I don't. You're just. You're being indirect. Right. And then why did you reach out to them and not your friend when you asked? Is it, like. Is it because you genuinely wanted to, like, hang out with them or you were con. You know, like. Or were you fishing a little bit?

[Molly]

No. I mean, I like this girl. I would like to be friends with her.

[Nick]

Okay. Yeah, but do you have that rapport with her?

[Molly]

I mean, kind of.

[Nick]

Okay, am I making any sense? Like, I mean.

[Molly]

No, you are. I mean, I guess. Do I just, like, get over it, or do I text her and be

[Nick]

like, hey, I think if it's still eating away at you. Yeah, I think you should talk to her. And it's just more about, like, listen. I don't know the best way to say it, but I think you should recognize that, like, listen. And maybe there's a vulnerability there where, like, I missed the friendship, what we had. And the reason I missed it is because, like, I don't know how much he knows about your history with friends. Does she?

[Molly]

Yeah, she knows all of it.

[Ali]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Okay. Well, as you know, like, I just, like, didn't have that, and I really cherish that. And I know I got busy with life and Matt or whatever, but I missed that. And I feel like it's. And now I'm just kind of in my head and I don't know, like, am I overthinking it? You know, are. You know, but maybe I just feel like when it comes to adult friendships, people, like, everyone's busy. Everyone has their lives. As we get older, it's just, like, friends are less of a priority. Right. Because careers and partners kind of come into play. Obviously, this friend group still, like, prioritizes each other and you feel excluded from that. But I don't know why they are doing what they're doing. But the easiest way to feel included is to be easy to be included, you know, to just. To be easy to have around.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And I said that about myself, too, you know, Like, I. You know, things I'm really good at, to no one's surprise, enforcing my boundaries. I'm. I know what I like. I know what I don't like. I'm opinionated Sometimes I speak up, even when I'm not asked, you know, and that has helped me a great deal in aspects of my life. At times that has probably made me difficult to be around. I am definitely not the person who's like, like, yeah, everyone wants to do shots, let's do shots. I was always like, nah, I'm good. Again, like, it's a little boundary, but it's setting a boundary. I don't, like, roll with the flow. I don't go with the flow often. And at times around certain people, that's a little bit of a buzzkill maybe. And like, I've, you know, there have been moments in my life I've had to recognize this or acknowledge it. I don't know. Most of the time I'm just more like, you know what, I'm going to be who I am. And no, I still don't want to take a shot just to be like, liked.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Or, you know, or things like, not that they don't like me, but it's just more like, I just know I'm not the person who's always down for a good time.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I have to at least accept that about myself. So whenever I feel excluded in life, I have to, like, go back to, well, I can make different choices, but I am content with who I am. But I, I, I've also at times have had to recognize that maybe I could be a little bit less difficult in situations if I want to feel more included.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And all I am saying is that big picture wise in general and maybe not necessarily something to do with the specific friendship. I wonder if you've just focused on being easy to be around. And being easy to be around means when the other friends says, are you and Molly coming? And this is a friend group, you would like to be included more often to show up and show up with a smile and have fun.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And not being your head and not show up wondering why the friend doesn't talk. You know, like, yeah, you don't show up and kind of, you know, and use that as the moment to have the talk with the friend. You just go and be fun.

[Molly]

Yeah. You know, and like, I did that for a while and then, I don't know, it got tiring.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, let's listen and that I'm like, like you sometimes. I'm like, I'm not having fun. I don't want to go.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But you have to ask yourself, why were you not having fun? Because you couldn't get out of your head about the Friend or are you just don't find this group of people that fun?

[Molly]

Kind of both.

[Nick]

Well, that's another thing you, you know. You know what I'm saying? Like, we all want to be wanted.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

There's a lot. Most things I don't want to do, but I still want to be wanted.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And to the degree that you feel unwanted, it's making you want to do things that deep down you don't want to do.

[Molly]

That's probably true.

[Nick]

And how are things overall with your boyfriend?

[Molly]

They're good. Okay.

[Nick]

So you got. You got a relationship that you're pretty happy about.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, I don't know if you listen to the show, but there's a lot of people out there who don't have that. You reinvested in your career. How's that going?

[Molly]

Yeah, it's great. I'm about to graduate in like two weeks, and I have a job already.

[Nick]

That's awesome.

[Molly]

And it's like my dream field, so I'm really happy.

[Nick]

So there's that. Yeah, you're struggling a little bit when it comes to friendships, but I do think a lot of it is past trauma and you kind of projecting that onto things and then over reading things and again, being a little dramatic or being a little petty and just like, not just accepting that, you know, you're focusing on what you don't have and not appreciating what you do have. And to whatever degree when you want to see these people, just be easy to be around and try not to overthink it. And if you are going to hang out with these people, just go to go to hangout out. If you need to talk to this friend, talk to this friend.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But at some point, I think you might just need to accept that she just, like, she's at a different stage of life than you.

[Molly]

She.

[Nick]

She met people she has slightly more in common with.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And that there's a sad element to the fact that you lost that intimacy with this friend. But I don't know what you want in your relationship, you know, but eventually, like, it's hard to maintain that level of intimacy with more than one person. Person.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And you have it with your boyfriend. You're describing the type of friendship that was deeply close. And again, like a lot of. Lot of girlfriends I had before I was dating Natalie, like, you know, and again, an intimacy of my platonic women friends, there was no physical intimacy, but there was emotional intimacy. There was a connection, and I became more unavailable when I re. Rechanneled that intimacy to my new girl girlfriend who is now my wife. And for a lot of people, it's hard to do. And honestly, I have found the people who try to have those relationships with a lot of people are never great at with anyone.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So is that. Is this in any way helpful or.

[Molly]

Yeah, I think maybe in a way I needed like permission to like, not feel guilty that I'm like, taking my boyfriend away from his friends when like, like he doesn't actually like, give a about them, you know?

[Nick]

Well, also, are you, you know, and do you need to be.

[Molly]

No, I don't think so.

[Nick]

This is about you and this girl. This doesn't sound like it's about you and this group of friends. So. Yeah, if your boyfriend wants to hang out with this group of friends and like, outside of like you just not feeling weird or trust him, then like, let him go hang out. And to the degree that like, why can't you just sometimes go again? You had plans eventually. Yeah. Like, and to say you would have changed, you know, like, you just have to accept where you're at or not at with this friend. You need some closure. You need to give yourself whatever closure you need now, whether that's through a conversation you have with her or just being like, yo, we just want different things. And the reality is, I mean, what if, like, for example, what if you talked to her and she was like, yeah, I miss it too. But like, I'm gonna start inviting you to everything we do do. How many. How much of those things would you want to show up for? Because if she was like, yo, I mean, I do have these other friends and like, I, you know, because the things that you guys did before, I'm guessing like both of your lives are different now.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Right. So, yeah, even, you know, I guess she could show up for the holidays, but like, I don't know, maybe she just. Why? You know, like, it's kind of not normal for like a. A friend with like in a one off situation. It's like, hey, this. I don't really have anyone. Do you want to come and hang out with my family for Christmas? Christmas and Thanksgivings? Yeah, sure. And you have a great time. Yeah. That's not like you all of a sudden make it like a thing like you do with your. You know, I haven't been to my family's Thanksgiving since I met Natalie because I've been going to her family's Thanksgiving.

[Molly]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nick]

And my family gets Christmas.

[Molly]

Yeah. I guess it just felt like a. I mean, it gave the Sense of intimacy. Like you're saying, you know, that it was potentially a more long term friendship than it ended up being.

[Nick]

Well, again, long term, it really comes down to what your expectations are of this friendship. I will say, like this. She's not the person. Like, she's not your ride or die. And I think you just missed that intimacy. But I do think you probably have overthought it a little bit where you have made it a little difficult for this friend to maintain a friendship that she's comfortable maintaining. And it's not going to be the same as what you guys had. And I think you just need to reconcile that. Like, what are you comfortable having with this friend?

[Molly]

I mean, I would be fine if we just like can exist within the same group, you know, that's like all I want.

[Nick]

My gut tells me, and I could be wrong. That has more to do with you than her.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Because you are reading, like not getting a specific invite as you being excluded and then you don't show up. And then the question is, when you hang out with this group, are you open to hanging out with the group or do you want to hang out with her? Her? No.

[Molly]

I mean, I don't really feel like I have a need to hang out with her anymore. I feel like we're like not friends, you know?

[Nick]

But could you get that out of your head? You are like, you're not best friends anymore. Maybe you've lost that intimacy. Because what I'm hearing is this, like. Yeah, and it may. Again, if this is like on the context of a. To me it sounds like, you know, I remember my first girlfriend, right? Like we break up a bunch of times. Like. And my. And we had a lot of mutual friends and then she was dating some other guy for a while and I heard about it, like when my friends would go hang out in the area where they might run into her, I would never fucking go because I just couldn't handle it, you know, I couldn't handle running into her because I know the intimacy that I came accustomed to as my girlfriend in those periods of times. I didn't have access to that and it felt rejected. I couldn't just be cool with her, you know, I couldn't just hang out and be chilling. Kill. Yeah, right. And the way you're describing it sounds a lot like that where it's just like you can't go. It's hard for you to go hang out with this group because, like, you're just so in your head about what you don't have with her anymore.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Does that make sense? Is that accurate?

[Molly]

Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. In some ways. Because I also think, you know, when we went to this music festival in

[Ali]

the fall, I feel like.

[Molly]

Like I was there and I was chill, and we were all hanging out and it was fun, you know.

[Nick]

Yeah. Great. But what's. Where's the but?

[Molly]

The but is I never heard anything since then.

[Nick]

From who?

[Molly]

Her and everyone.

[Nick]

I just think part of it is just like, you people. Like, you people see you two as a. I mean, I don't know. There's a. Like, if you're a really close couple, they might just see you as a couple.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And the individual invites might seem a little ridiculous to them. I mean, there's a world where they're like, why does she miss that? About, like, we sent them an invite. I don't know. And then, like, that one girl asked if you guys were coming, and in that moment, you were wondering why you didn't get your own invite. And then you didn't want. And you wanted to feel invited by the one friend.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And the. And what I'm saying is this. This festival or concert that you described, they probably feel the same way. That was a good time. But you left that wanting. Them. You want to be wanted by them, and you don't feel wanted by them. And I am just saying maybe it's not that deep to them. And they're just like. I don't know, she's going to. To school. She's got a. You know, I don't know. It's just like.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And it also sounds like there's a lot of times that you wouldn't want to hang out with them based on what they're doing.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Because you got to do.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And this group of friends, they're just like. They're always around. They're always there. They're not. You know, and for whatever reason, they're just. They know they're going to say yes to each other and, you know, like me, you know, when. When I. You know, it's just like, I say no always. Lot to a lot of things, People stop, You know, people stop asking you when you. When you're good at saying no to things.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So I think there's a little bit of, like. I think you just accepting who you are a little bit better. You know, maybe just. Are you in any type of therapy?

[Molly]

Yeah, I was for a really long time.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Molly]

Sorry I'm crying. I was not expecting this.

[Nick]

It's okay.

[Molly]

Yeah. I did years and Years of therapy, like. Like in my early 20s, because I had some. Some mental health struggles. But, like, I felt like I. I've grown so much since then. And, like, generally I'm, like, really proud and really confident of who I've become and, like, what I've accomplished, but there's just, like, this weak spot when it comes to this, you know?

[Nick]

Listen, do you ever go to the gym?

[Molly]

Yeah, all the time.

[Nick]

Okay. And when you stop going to the gym, what happens?

[Molly]

I feel like.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, you know, like, I haven't worked out.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Like, I used to work out. My arms are. I feel like I have. My arms look like noodles or whatever. But, like, you know, when you stop working on your physical health, your body responds.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

When you stop working on your mental health, your body responds.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So, like, you used to do a lot of therapy. It seemed to be helpful.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You stopped. Then this thing happened. Yeah. And you're having a hard time processing it. And I'm just saying, like, you know, again, the therapy is this. It works a lot better when you treat it like maintenance rather than reconstructive surgery.

[Molly]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nick]

It's like, how helpful is going to the gym when you get, like. It's like, if I got asked to do a photo shoot next week, like, I don't know what, like, I could start working out for six days a week, but I'm only gonna get so much.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Out of that. Right. Had I been working out for the past six months, I'd be more prepared for that. You know, And I'm just saying, like, you know, we. We. We take for granted what it takes to stay in our physical best shape and. Versus our mental best shape. So if you are feeling, like, a little lost mentally and a little, like, just confused and having a hard time processing these things, maybe check, you know, maybe revisit that. Because it just sounds like, honestly, like. Like it's not as bad as it feels. And you have some past trauma with some friendship stuff that's showing up in this friendship, and you're not crazy for feeling this way, but you're maybe not seeing it as clearly as, you know, you're just not on the same page as this friend. And it's.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And I. If I'm. If I were you, the best advice I could give you is just try to address that. And, you know, I hope this was somewhat helpful, but I just think. Think you need. I think you just need to workshop this a little bit. And to me, it's more about you getting back on Track on feeling comfortable with who you are and the choices you're making. And you have a lot of good things going in your life right now with your relationship and your career. Between prioritizing a romantic relationship, a career, and friendships, I think you're prioritizing the two more important things. You know, assuming that your relationship goals are to not like, grow old with friends so you can go to Burning man together.

[Molly]

No, for sure.

[Nick]

You know, and so. But that doesn't mean you don't want to have friends and it doesn't mean you don't want to have some intimacy with friendships. Yeah, but I think the way you are internalizing this is stopping you from feeling content with your choices. And then it's also bleeding into your friendships where in ways I don't think you realize you're, you're, you're being more difficult than you need to be to just be around.

[Molly]

Yeah, I think it's hard because, like, I tell my other friends about it and they're like, oh my God, that's so crazy. Like, I can't believe she did that and all that stuff and.

[Nick]

Well, sure.

[Molly]

I mean, it probably just like feeds into the drama of it all.

[Nick]

Well, yeah, when you tell a 10 minute version of the story and it's just your story, it's like, yeah, that's up. Why did she, why did she. You know, it's. Yeah, but there's a lot of nuance here, right?

[Molly]

Yeah, for sure.

[Nick]

And yes. I don't think telling a bunch of your friends this story so they can let you is not, it's not being help. That's not helpful. It's like, again, like, it's, it's like going through a breakup and telling your friend, what are your friends gonna say? They're gonna have your back. They're gonna say he sucks, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's not about them sucking, it's just about how do you stop either. How do you accept this new reality? Because you're stuck and you need to get unstuck. And that's so much about moving on from a breakup. Is this feeling unstuck, talking to your friends about it, it keeps you stuck. Talking to a therapist about, like, who also, like, has a goal of getting you unstuck and helps you change how you think. Yeah, these friends aren't helping you change how you think. They're just, they're just reinforcing a narrative of how you feel.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And I don't think that narrative is, is productive right now.

[Molly]

Yeah, that's true.

[Nick]

So this is helpful at all?

[Molly]

Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

[Nick]

Well, I'm sorry you're going through this, but I would. I would definitely think about finding a therapist that you feel good about and just workshop this and talk.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Centered around friendships.

[Molly]

Yeah. I love my therapist. She, like, she graduated me to, like, as needed, and I just never reached back out.

[Nick]

Yeah. Well, that's okay. Now you need it again. Yeah. And I would talk about this situation in a way that, like. Because I don't think there's necessarily anything to do here other than you being content.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And to the degree that, like, you, You.

[Ali]

You.

[Nick]

It. In this conversation, you said, I just want to be able to hang out with this school group from time to time. Yeah. But I don't know if that's how you really feel, because what I'm hearing, everything. You. There's nothing stopping you from doing that today because this group does invite you guys from time to time. And right now, you and your boyfriend are saying no because you feel excluded. But that feeling excluded, I think, is somewhat in your head. You don't feel wanted by a particular person, and then you are projecting that onto the entire group as being excluded.

[Molly]

Me? Yeah.

[Nick]

And I. It sounds to me, if you really wanted to be, like, if your goal was to be the most popular person, I bet you could do it. I just don't know if you want to do the things that would be required.

[Molly]

No, I don't.

[Nick]

And I think you just. That's the part you have to accept about yourself and be okay with.

[Molly]

Yeah. Because, like, in this time, I have, like, nurtured my other friendships, and I'm, like, really happy with those. So. Yeah.

[Nick]

And that's.

[Molly]

I think I need to focus on what I have, you know?

[Nick]

Yes. But it's easier said than done. But all I'm saying is try not to be the person who doesn't want to take shots with the group but is frustrated that group doesn't think you're the most fun person to be around. If you wanted to be more fun, go, take the shot. But you don't want to take the shot. And you need to be content with, you know, because, like, the people who want to take shots, they want everyone to take the shots with them because no one wants to drink a lot alone.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And you're unwilling to do that sometimes. And that is okay, because what that means is you're also probably good at setting some boundaries that maybe they're not. And people who aren't good at setting boundaries want to spend time with other people who aren't good at setting boundaries. And I think. Yeah, I just want you to be. Feel good about your. You're making. It sounds like you're making relatively good choices. And, and, and I want you to feel better about that.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Ali]

Okay.

[Nick]

And I think your therapist can help.

[Molly]

Yeah, she definitely can. She's great.

[Ali]

Great.

[Molly]

All right. I have to go see her again.

[Nick]

Do that. All right. I appreciate the call. I'm sorry you're sad about this, but hopefully this is a step in the right direction.

[Molly]

Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much.

[Nick]

All right, take care. All right, bye.

[Ali]

Bye.

[Nick's Wife]

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[Nick's Wife]

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[Nick]

How's it going?

[Ali]

Hey, Nick. I'm good. My name is Ali. I'm 29 years old. My question is, should I be worried about being unmarried at 30 years old?

[Nick]

No. Why? I mean, why. Why do you ask that question like that? I mean. I mean, you obviously know the answer is no, right? Or.

[Ali]

I do know that answer, but I feel like turning 30 is. It's in a couple months for me, and I've had multiple relationships, and I've felt like I've been so close to finding the right person for me, but I feel like after turning 30, the pressure definitely feels a little bit more on. I am dating right now, and it's. It's kind of crazy out there. I'm just really ready to, like, settle down with someone. But I also know that I do have time. I have been engaged before, so I think I am getting closer. But it's just that initial. Like, should I just be focusing on myself or should I actually be trying to find a partner?

[Nick]

Well, what do you think your biggest issue is? I mean, is it just like you're turning 30 and you're getting nervous or.

[Molly]

I am.

[Ali]

I feel like I'm getting nervous. And so many people, like, so many of my friends are, like, married and having kids, and I just feel like I am behind in that time frame

[Nick]

a little other than just like, your time frame is different than their time frame, which is probably the most likely answer. Like, are there. Are there things that you think you could be doing differently or are. Is it just the men that you're dating? Is it just bad luck? I mean, at the end of the day, you know, it's. It comes down to. Yeah. I mean, most likely you just have, like, it's. This hasn't Happened in your timeline.

[Ali]

I'll give you the situation I'm in right now. I met someone online. We met through Tick Tock actually, and we started.

[Nick]

How do you meet? Can you. Is it. Can you DM on Tick Tock or how's that work?

[Ali]

Yeah, so I actually, I did. I. I slid in the dm. So I actually found him though, off Facebook dating, and he had his Tick Tock in his profile. So I went and found him and like, from the first pictures I saw, I was just like, like, who is this man? Started messaging on, like, Instagram and Snap and then finally started texting. And it's been like a couple. Couple weeks now. This is my first time meeting him. I actually met him for the first time last night and we had so much fun. It was so much fun. Like, best night, really hit it off. He definitely said that he is talking to a couple other people. And I also have, like, other dates lined up and things like that, but definitely nothing with substance like I have with this guy.

[Nick]

How's that? How's that come up? I'm honestly just curious, like, on a first date, is that pretty common these days where you're, like, being upfront that you have, like, people have rosters? Basically?

[Ali]

No. So, like, we got really into depth with, like, we talked about really deep actual life stuff, like, I don't know how much I should say, but family and like, like just life, like, really, really deep into things. And he basically was like, making jokes about it like, you're gonna fall in love. And I was like, well, I'm not going to actually, because you're not available. So I really feel like I need to hold myself back. I feel like I do get attached to people. Like, once I do choose someone, like, I will.

[Nick]

So wait, he was. He was jokingly saying he's gonna fall. You're gonna fall in love with him?

[Ali]

Yeah. Like, sure, yeah.

[Nick]

What made you say he's not available?

[Ali]

He originally had said he's like, just not looking for a relationship right now. How is this guy, my age, 29, very country guy, like, travels a lot basically, and just like, in the gym, likes to shoot. Like, just kind of has his life and travels to see his friends a lot. So he just is enjoying his life. He had his own relationship that didn't work out, and he said he lost himself and didn't see his friends for like, a couple years. But when I look in his eyes, I definitely see the connection. Like, I can feel it.

[Nick]

When you look in his eyes, you can feel?

[Nick's Wife]

Yes.

[Ali]

Like, when we're talking and we're. I'm, like, looking at him, like, I feel. I feel the chemistry. Like, I know it's there, and, like, I don't know, but I just think I should, like, put the brakes on and not get in too deep before I allow myself to get hurt, basically. I think that's another piece. I have advice I can ask for, like, how do you not get excited? And, like, just stay. I want to stay grounded. But also, I love, love. And so it's just. It is fun. It's fun, especially to the beginning stages.

[Molly]

It's.

[Ali]

It's new, it's exciting, and it's so easy to just, like, fall into, like. Could this be something?

[Nick]

What's your longest relationship you've had?

[Ali]

It was four years.

[Nick]

Okay. How long? How long?

[Ali]

We broke up a year ago.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Ali]

That's crazy. Yeah.

[Nick]

Did you end it? Did he end it?

[Ali]

I ended it because we ended up being long distance. We were living in Hawaii, and he got deployed overseas, and so I decided to move to Florida to finish my nursing degree and be closer to my family. And he kept saying he was going to move to Florida, but he just never did. And it was just like, two years of, like, begging, crying, like, please move here. Like, I want to be with you. Like, spend our life together. And so I basically kind of forced an engagement. I was like, you either gonna marry me or I'm gonna leave. We got engaged, and I was just still not happy. Like, that was not the band aid that was gonna fix everything. So I did end up ending it, and it was. It was really sad, and it was hard, but I think he. He knew that I was not happy for a long time, so I really did try. I just ended up, like, not really also seeing my life in Hawaii anymore just because I have no one out there, and it's just so far away from family and whatnot.

[Nick]

When you. When you moved, like, were you, like,

[Ali]

I'm moving when I moved away from Hawaii?

[Nick]

Yeah. Like, what. What were those? Like, he was your boyfriend at the time, right? Like, you had been dating for a couple years?

[Ali]

Yeah, about a year and a half. And then.

[Nick]

Yeah. And was it like, he was getting

[Ali]

deployed overseas for six months.

[Nick]

Oh, okay. So he was leaving Hawaii, and you were like, well, you're. You're gone and I'm by myself.

[Ali]

Yeah, basically. And I was going to be waitlisted to get into nursing school, and it's really hard to get into school out there because there's only so many. So my sister was already in nursing school in Florida, and so I just applied and got right in. And then now I've been here three years now, and I do love it here. I love it here.

[Nick]

So I guess, like, why are you so nervous? Nervous? I mean, I know you're turning 30, but it seems like a. You know, it seems like where you're at is a product of the choices you've made. And I don't mean that as a bad thing. I mean, like, it makes a lot of sense that you moved back home to Florida, you went and invested in yourself and got a higher education degree, and now I'm assuming you love nursing and. Yeah. So now you're doing something you love. There's a world where maybe if he didn't get deployed or you didn't move or maybe he did a little bit more than he did to keep you around. There's a world where that relationship could have taken too much of your energy, where you wouldn't have gone back to school. So you got to look at it that way.

[Ali]

Yeah. So we ended on good terms, and we're still friendly, but I definitely don't. I don't. I don't miss that relationship. I feel like the. What I'm attracted to has changed a lot. I guess. I didn't feel.

[Nick]

I didn't feel very cowboy.

[Ali]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Like, how serious are you about that?

[Ali]

Like, lately I've had two recent relationships that were shorter. One that was six months, 13 months. A lot of, like, men will. They say, and they want certain things, and then they say too much and then pull back or just giving empty promises. So. So I'm very gullible. Like, I'll. I'll believe what you say to me because I will tell you the truth, too. Like, that's. That's the kind of person I am. So I just feel like.

[Nick]

Can you give me an example?

[Ali]

So my last boyfriend, like, I was just like. Like, why we were gonna move in together, and he was like, I think this year, like, we could look into marriage. Like, we should talk about that. One week he's saying that, and then the next week, he, like, broke up with me. And he. He broke up with me multiple times. Like, it was just ridiculous. He would leave and come back. I want to choose a good man, a nice, solid, grounded person to spend my life with, But I'm nervous that that doesn't attract me as much anymore. And that's. I don't. It's almost like. It's like a bad boy thing. It's. And it sounds so. It sounds just dumb and like cheesy, but it's. Something about it is really pulling me. Like, I. I hope I can find it all. Like, I want the full pack package. So I'm just like, is it out there?

[Nick]

What is the full package to you?

[Ali]

Obviously someone I am attracted to physically, but loving, loyal, want to be in a committed relationship, want to be in a marriage, want to have a family and wants to provide and like build a life.

[Nick]

But what about the bad boy thing that you. Or does that. Is that part of the total package or.

[Ali]

I mean, I do love like someone who like works out. It's like bigger, taller, like.

[Mary]

Sure.

[Nick]

I mean, what does that to do with being a bad boy though?

[Ali]

I guess the last couple, like. And even guy, I'm like, is he in the.

[Nick]

Is he in your apartment or something?

[Ali]

I'm like, I am at house right now.

[Nick]

You're at his house?

[Ali]

Yeah, he left to go get food. Yeah. You know, because he was coming into town. This was like. His timing was. Was impeccable, let me say that.

[Nick]

Did you guys hook up?

[Ali]

Yeah, yeah, it was great. It was amazing. We had the best night. Like, stayed up till four in the morning just talking the whole time, like, talking from basically.

[Nick]

Where did he go? Like, you know, you went to go get coffee or something?

[Ali]

Yeah, he went to go get us coffee.

[Nick]

What was gonna happen? Did you kick him out? Like, did you have this call plan?

[Mary]

No.

[Nick]

You were.

[Ali]

Yeah, I told him. Well, no. So I was gonna go home, but I was gonna go home, but I work.

[Nick]

I thought he was in town, so

[Ali]

I'm at his Airbnb.

[Nick]

Okay, gotcha.

[Ali]

Yeah.

[Nick]

All right.

[Ali]

It's actually his friend's Airbnb, but he gave us the house to ourselves last night, so that was really nice of him.

[Molly]

Right, But I'm crazy, Nick.

[Ali]

No, no, no. I honestly, I'm happy. Like, I'm enjoying my life. But should I be going on dates with people who I know are like, good guys and have a lot to offer, even if I'm not attracted to them? Because looks definitely are not everything. But what would you say to that?

[Nick]

I mean, listen, it's. I don't think it's a this or that. I think you just kind of have to be. You have to prioritize what you want, you know, you have. I think you do have to be open to dating outside your comfort zone. You know, it seems like. And a lot of people do. Like, it seems like you're leading with your, you know, physicality first, which which again, many. Most of us do.

[Ali]

Is that a bad thing?

[Nick]

Not a bad thing. It just might be limiting your options. I mean, if you're like a lot of the ladies out there who are limiting their options to men over 6 foot with a good head of hair and make good money, you're kind of looking for a unicorn. That's less than a few percent of the population.

[Ali]

No, for sure.

[Nick]

And then. And you know, so it's. And then like, a lot of those guys, especially guys around your age, whether consciously or subconsciously, know that right now, like, they have options, you know, because, like, when they go on the apps, everyone's looking for the six foot guy. I think for you, it's just like saying, I looked into his eyes and I know there was a connection. Like, yeah. You know, you feel chemistry, you know, and I wouldn't confuse chemistry with a connection. And I'm sure it's exciting. And it sounds like you had a great night. It sounds like you had some good sex. That's all fun. The question is, like, how are you moving? You know, you said you have a habit of moving fast and. And like, it's a strong possibility he's gonna go live. You know, he told you last night that he's not looking for a relationship. Relationship. And I don't know what you. What did you say back?

[Ali]

I was just like, I get it. Like, he travels for work. Like, he's focused on himself. Like, I do understand that.

[Molly]

That's.

[Ali]

That's what I told him. And like, obviously I respect that. Other than my focus being on one person, like, I think I should keep my eyes, like, maybe on, like, the bigger picture and being like, just really pulling myself back to, like, take things very, very one step at a time, very slow and not get caught up. So I'm just like, I am emotional. I love love, and it's so easy. I feel like, like, as a girl to get excited about something, but I think I need to, like, come back down to reality.

[Nick]

I mean, like, that's the biggest thing I can leave you with. It's just like, you just have to make. You have to be aware of your choices.

[Ali]

Yeah, for sure.

[Nick]

And you have to be honest with your choices. I guess what I mean by that is, like, listen, you. You're 29, YOLO. You're living your best life. Sounds like you had a great night. And that's amazing. Like, this is a fun story to tell. It's even crazier that you're at his Airbnb talking to me right now, that makes this call, like, fascinating, and there's a lot of excitement behind that, and that's awesome. You did nothing wrong in the context of, like, I'm about to turn 30, and I am nervous that I am not. Haven't found my person yet. And there's. There's something wrong with that. Like, I don't know if the decisions you made last night are putting yourself in a position to find that, like, you might marry this guy. I don't know. But he basically, last night, he was like, listen, I'm in town. I just want to be upfront with you. I'm not looking for anything serious. I'm not looking for a girlfriend even, you know, and. And I don't know what you said next, but a few hours later, you end up in his place and you have sex, which, again, if you want to have sex, great. Have fun, have sex. But, like, he was upfront already about what he didn't want. Right? And I don't know how you feel about him emotionally or physically after being intimate with him, but, like, right now, he's very much in the driver's seat, you know, like, you seem excited about him, and you're trying to convince yourself that, like, oh, it's not gonna happen, but there's a part of you that probably hopes that it does, right? Especially after having that intimate connection with him. And now it's just, like, you're gonna be sitting around wondering and waiting and things like that. And. And he's going to have all this power, and he. He kind of already knows that this isn't the first time. He's been like, yo, I'm not looking for anything serious, and he's ended up at some girl's apartment, and, you know, he'll probably feel that nervous energy from you. And that nervous energy is for a guy who's already had sex with someone who he barely knows is not exactly. Like, it doesn't keep him wondering or guessing. You're keeping him. It doesn't keep him interested. Did you know, quite frankly now, like, there's a good chance, like, he's out there getting coffee, trying to figure out his exit strategy, you know, I don't know that's for sure. I don't know him at all. But, like, I do know these situations.

[Molly]

Horrible.

[Ali]

Yeah, no, you're right now.

[Nick]

But, like, he's already had the sex. He's. You know, he doesn't. Like, what. What does he want? Right. He doesn't want a relationship. Right. He doesn't want anything serious. So it seems like he wanted sex, which is fine. You wanted sex too. You know, like, no crime. You guys are two adults. You had, you know, you had a great time. Right? But men and women often respond differently to physical intimacy. Right. You feel a little bit more connected. He's more like, I just had sex with a stranger. And you're getting giddy and excited. He might come back and have more. Want more sex, I don't know. But at the point where he's done having sex without the physique, without the emotional bond, and if he can feel your nervousness, if he can feel your. Well, when do I get to see you again? Men often don't respond the same way as you do or women do. And so, again, in the context of having a great time, sounds like you made all the right decisions. In the context of setting yourself up for success so that you can get to know people and you can be in control of your feelings, you've put yourself in this particular situation a little bit behind the eight ball, so to speak. You never know again. I married the person know. We hooked up on our first night. You know, it also was nine months of a situationship and things like that. There's no perfect way.

[Ali]

I'm really glad I talked to you because I do feel like I needed to, like, hear it from a guy's perspective too. And I appreciate you being honest with me and upfront and giving me that other view because it's really nice just to have the opposite sex in here, that opinion of another guy. So. So thank you.

[Nick]

Yeah, I mean, I definitely. I didn't say it to give you hope. I mean, I was, you know, it's. It's. No, I know it's possible, but it's just more like. It's. I don't. It's not.

[Ali]

You guys got lucky.

[Nick]

It's not ideal. Yeah, yeah, there was a lot of luck. There wasn't. It was, you know, a lot of things kind of had to happen the right way for it to work out. When you go on dates, you got to ask yourself, is this about having fun tonight or is this about getting to know someone? One. You know, okay, the. The cowboy from Texas who's, you know, on. Like, if you want to keep him excited and interested, I would be more mysterious. I would be, you know, more. A little more guarded. And you can still have fun, but, like, I, you know, you gotta play the game. Play the game a little bit. Yeah, but listen, if you, like, at the same time, like, this guy's from out of Town. You're like, I don't know, I'm gonna get one shot at having sex with this guy. Sexy cowboy. Yo, yolo. You know, but, like, you just have to be upfront with what. What it is. And the more in control you are with your emotions, the. The more attractive you will generally be to men.

[Ali]

Okay, I like that. Thank you. Yeah, I agree with that as well. No, you're right.

[Molly]

For sure.

[Nick]

How are you plan on leaving this situation?

[Ali]

Like, right, like today or just in general? Well, we're gonna hang out for the rest of the day today. We're gonna go probably check out the beach a little bit.

[Nick]

Yes.

[Ali]

Yeah. He was like, do you want to hang out?

[Nick]

So you're just very available and you're very. He is in total control.

[Ali]

Honestly, every but my last three boyfriends and sky, they all call me this. The same two words like I'm sweet and I'm cute. Those are always the words that I get. And it's like I. I'm like, nice girls don't finish first. I'm like, nice guys don't finish. You know, they finish last.

[Nick]

It's not about being nice or mean. It's just more about being like. It's making them chase, you know, it's just having some boundaries. It's. It's not appearing as so available to the people you really like. It's not about being a dick. You know, you don't have to be rude to attract people. You just have to maybe be slightly less accommodating and you have to listen. What do you want? You know, you have to lead a little bit. In a way at least lead with, like, what you want. If you don't want thing, don't say yes to be polite. You know, you can challenge them a little bit.

[Ali]

Thank you so much. You're awesome.

[Nick]

All right, well, thanks for the call. You probably should let you go before he comes back.

[Ali]

I appreciate you. I appreciate you. Yeah, thank you. I'm definitely gonna take your advice. And I appreciate you for having me on.

[Nick]

Thanks for the call.

[Ali]

Bye, Nick.

[Nick]

All right, take care. Bye.

[Mary]

Bye.

[Ali]

Foreign

[Nick]

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