← The Viall Files
The Viall Files
ANTM w/ Jay Manuel, RHOP w/ Monique Samuels, Love Is Blind w/ Ashley and Summer House
01:52:54
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- [00:00]
Nick
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- [01:52]
Monique Samuels
You're craz.
- [02:04]
Nick
What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Vile Files Reality Recap edition. I'm your host, Nick, joined by my wonderful, gorgeous wife, Natalie Joy. I'm rushing a little bit because, guys, we have one of the most jam packed episodes we've ever had and we've had a lot, but boy, do we have a lot of great content for you. We have Jay Manuel with us to talk about the documentary reality Check that covers America's Next Top Model number one.
- [02:33]
Susie
On Netflix right now.
- [02:34]
Nick
Everyone is talking about it and he is definitely one of the main characters of that documentary. We have Jay with us, which we are very excited to unpack all of your burning questions. We also have Ashley from Love is Blind to talk about the pods and her relationship with Alex, along with all the other drama going on in the Love is blind season 10 season. And Monique Samuels from Real Housewives of Potomac. We got the reunion going on right now and she joins us to break down her thoughts on this very great season of the Real Housewives of Potomac. So lots coming your way. We got Susie here in the household. We got Justin on the couch. Finally, he's back.
- [03:18]
Susie
Mary, pink hair.
- [03:19]
Nick
Yeah, Mary's hair is looking great. So much to get into. Also, do not forget that Vow Files is going live if you want to. We are finally doing a live show and we're teaming up with Netflix as a joke to host a live event with the upcoming cast of Temptation Island. So it's going to be sexy, raunchy fun, full of drama. Bring your friends, bring your girlfriends, your partner. It's a great, fun night out. Join us. Tickets are now available. Let's go to the link in bio to get those tickets. It's May 6th and don't forget Val files plus is now ad free and you get some amazing content like our reality recap deep dives where we dive even deeper on some of your favorite reality recap shows like Love is Blind and the America's Next Top Model documentary as well as your update special, all your favorite updates on your favorite Ask Nick calls and your pop extra episodes. So be sure to check that out. Just go to vilefiles.com and you will be glad that you did. All right. I think, Susie, I'm really excited to get into America's Next Top Model conversation with you is a fellow reality TV cast.
- [04:26]
Susie
Me.
- [04:26]
Nick
But before we do, I want to let's, let's, let's, let's talk a little summer house before we get to some of these other shows. This was quite the episode. I, the Kyle and Amanda of it all. It's more, it's like I don't want to like always have the guy side that's, you know. But I will say with an audience that's primarily women, I, I am willing to just have, you know, just to try to see a point of view of, of, of, of the men out there and like, you know, with west, you know, back in the day, you know, I. I understood at least partly where west was coming from, but with Kyle, I. It is so. It's so painful to watch this relationship go down in flames. How does. How can he not connect the dots between what his wife is trying to communicate to him? And he's so reactive. Like, every time she's just like. The drinking, the drinking. He keeps acting like that's like a scapegoat, and it's so frustrating. And I just. I wish one of his boys would check him.
- [05:29]
Justin
Yeah.
- [05:29]
Natalie Joy
Yeah. It's a hard watch. And I'll be honest, I'm new to Summer House, but I've. I'm deep on TikTok, so I feel like I'm a little bit aware and watching the episode. I think if I hadn't been on TikTok and, like, seen scenes from previous seasons, I could have bought in a little bit to, like, dang, like, she's really being hard on him. And it seems like she doesn't care, but just knowing what I know, I feel like she's just a woman that is so over it. Like, she's at the point where it's like. I personally kind of relate to this just from my personal life, from past relationships where it's like at some point, like, one person showing up in the relationship and sometimes it's the other person. And at this point, it's neither of them. Like, neither of them are fighting for it. And she has bent at the knee. It seems like for years she has, like, let go of her boundaries for the past seven years or whatever it's been. They've been together, like, making exceptions for him and him being out and with everything they've been through, and I'm just, like, watching her and I'm like, I know what it feels like to be that woman where you're like, I'm over this and I'm not interested in, like, tiptoeing around this. I'm gonna be mean to you. Like, yeah, I don't have the patience. I don't have the capacity to, like, walk you through this and, like, spoon feed you through this anymore. And, like, I feel like at one.
- [06:45]
Nick
Point he said, and I quote, I was the least fucked up person there. As if, like, that's a flat. You know, Imagine being married to someone for years and they're. I mean, like, it's great. You're an extrovert, you're a socialite. You, like, going out, that's not a crime. But, like, to the degree in which he continues to think that's okay. And it's not even like, it's not even like he's going out most nights, but he's home by midnight. It's like he's, it sounds like he's going out often and when he does, it's all night long, you know, And I, I know as like a someone who's a little bit more of an introvert, but like, you know, once you're in a committed relationship, I, I just, you know, you know, when you're a committed relationship, it's nice to get out every once in a while. And I'm not saying just because you're in a committed relationship, you can't go out to the bars with your friends because you're doing something wrong. But like, there's only so much hanging with the boys you can do before. Like eventually you, you are putting yourself in compromising situations. Were. Being friendly and flirty is a very thin line. And it's just like, that's why a lot of people who get into committed relationships like, lose that desire to go out all the time because it's like they realize so much about going out was flirting and meeting people, the sex in which you are attracted to, you know, and it's just the fact that I get that Kyle's an extrovert and he goes out, but he is not willing to make any compromises for her. And like when, and when and when Kyle says things like, I'm trying, I'm like, I can't. I just, nothing I can do is right. And I'm trying so hard. I just wish one of his boys, like west, who's like, Kyle needs some like, hard coaching. Like, be like, that's not your best. That's some. If that's your best, that's some weak ass shit. Like, it's just like, you gotta show up for your partner. When your partner is just like, yo, can you please not do X, Y or Z? He just throws a temper tantrum. He like stomps his feet and is like, I can't believe you're asking me that. And it's just like how you would just think someone be like, yo, like, how do you watch this back and like not be a little kind of embarrassed about it?
- [08:52]
Carl
I feel like Carl did try to say something right after the dinner when he did storm off because Carl was like, just gently, like just gently in.
- [08:59]
Justin
The soft, soft boy Carl way.
- [09:01]
Carl
Yeah, to your point. Kyle's walking away from each of these conversations, putting it on Amanda. Like he said at the. What is it? The apology dunes or whatever they called it. He was like. Like, I don't even know who I married, and, like, stormed off.
- [09:13]
Nick
And it's like, he called her boring and, like, lazy. Bory. I know he was. That was. That was some. He said she needed to get a person. He lost his shit because. And again, maybe this was edited out, but he accused Amanda of calling him an alcoholic, which I didn't hear those words at all. She obviously mentioned the drinking. But when your defense is, I'm the least fucked up person there is, his.
- [09:35]
Susie
Response to that was, also, you lead me to the drink, which is crazy, right? Like, not something someone says if they don't have a problem with drinking.
- [09:45]
Carl
I think what Susie said was exactly what it is, is they've both dropped the filter and they're all saying what we've heard in between the lines every other season. Like, she's talking about the cheating and she's not fully denying it. He's bringing up, like, they're just bringing up things that they've clearly had struggles over.
- [10:00]
Nick
No, I mean, I get it, but at least with Manda's, it's like, okay, if that's happening, I totally get you. I. I just, like, no, it's like, I can't understand where Kyle's coming from.
- [10:10]
Carl
I agree. Yeah.
- [10:11]
Natalie Joy
It's like one person's talking about. This is how I saw it. I was like, one person's talking about habits and, like, bad decision making. The other person is pointing the finger at somebody's character, their personality, like, who they are. And I'm like, you. You marry a person for those things. You don't marry them for their habits. Those things can change. And you can express, like, frustration and hurt and pain behind those things. But to look at somebody and be like, you're not interesting. You don't, like, stimulate me intellectually or, like, I don't know if those aren't the exact words, but, like, he kind of was pointing at those things. I'm like, you're pointing at who she is and saying, you're the problem. She's saying, here's a habit that you need to work on. Those are two really big differences. And, like, one of them is very damaging.
- [10:50]
Susie
Yeah, totally. And also the way he's able to, like, flip the script and do it in a way. I mean, like, the whole, like, smoking conversation where he's like, you just. You're high all day. And she's like, I don't smoke until I take the dogs out on their last walk, which is at 10pm I'm not smoking until after 10:30. You have all day to talk to me. And he's like, you need to be an adult and, like, have a job.
- [11:11]
Nick
It's like, I mean, maybe not.
- [11:13]
Susie
She's like, no, again, it's at 10:30 at night.
- [11:16]
Carl
Like, that was definitely a tip or top. He was like, I'm going to bring this up because you're bringing up my party.
- [11:21]
Monique Samuels
Yeah.
- [11:23]
Justin
Which also, like, she got when he got jobs. She's on reality tv.
- [11:28]
Natalie Joy
I'm sure she gets deals.
- [11:30]
Justin
Yeah.
- [11:30]
Nick
When he was throwing out those, like, you know, character diggs, he was like, and we have no compatibility. We also have nothing in common. And I'm like, that's also compatibility. No, but it's just like, yeah, it. Kyle treats is like as if that's Amanda's only responsibility in this relationship is to, like, root for Kyle without question. Never, you know, only just. Only pat him on the back. As long as he is motivated and inspired, that needs to. As far as Kyle's is concerned, that needs to be good enough. And he is expecting Amanda to always just be happy that he is motivated and inspired and he's always doing the right thing. And, you know, Carl was like this too. But, like, at some point you. Yeah, you need a cheerleader, but sometimes you have to be able to. To take some constructive criticism. If we're using sports analogies. Yeah, you want people believing you and you need to pat on the back. But sometimes you need to, like, you need to be checked. And Kyle is just like, when. Anytime anyone checks him. I mean, it's. It's a literal temper tantrum.
- [12:36]
Susie
It also is so sad watching, like, after he stands up on the beach and he's like, you have no personality. You have no drive. You have no whatever. And she just is kind of like. Like laughs it off. And it's like, you are so used to being talked to like this. Like, it's not shocking to you. It's not like, oh, my God, I can't believe you just said that to me. It's like, yeah, we. This happens all the time. And then hearing her in bed with Sierra being like, is he gonna treat our kids this way?
- [13:06]
Natalie Joy
Right?
- [13:06]
Susie
So heartbreaking. So sad.
- [13:09]
Natalie Joy
But honestly, great question for her to ask. Like, do you're literally picking the person you're gonna raise a child with and, like, how he talks to you. It's probably gonna be even worse to a little kid who doesn't have, like, the capacity to function properly. Like, he's gonna snap.
- [13:23]
Carl
I think she has no Tears left to cry. Like, I think that's what we're saying.
- [13:27]
Nick
Sincerely. I'm not trying to, like, beat him down or whatever, but I genuinely would love to know, like, in a deeper conversation, whether it's on the show or just offline. From his standpoint, like, how does he not see what everyone seems to be seeing? And outside of, like, not feeling like, outside of being upset that his wife doesn't fully support his DJ career, why can't you understand her frustration and the shit you put her through? How. Why is that so hard to under understand? And you keep saying you love her, but you're not willing to do anything that makes her feel loved or supported or believed in. And it's just like, at what point, like, do you expect Amanda to keep caring while he keeps showing up? And his biggest gripe is basically like, you don't like me? Or, you know, and it's like, she. He keeps doing things that are just hard to resp. I just don't know anyone who's just like, I'm gonna. I want to marry a party person. I want to marry a party boy. I want to marry someone who, like, just like, needs to feel that. Like, like, that's like. That's the only. Every time I watch Summer House, that's the only thing that gets Kyle kind of like, yeah, you know, his. His heart pump.
- [14:47]
Carl
That's true. You know, I mean, his cardboard cutouts of everybody.
- [14:51]
Justin
If only he could let the softness of a beautiful woman fill his art in that way as well.
- [14:55]
Natalie Joy
I think.
- [14:56]
Nick
I don't. No one's. No one's ever been, like, yet. That's what I want. I think that's my dream.
- [15:00]
Natalie Joy
That.
- [15:01]
Nick
That's my.
- [15:01]
Natalie Joy
People will like him better single and pursuing his career. Like, I think this industry, there's such a. You get such a hit off of followers, likes validation publicly. I can only imagine being a DJ and being live somewhere. The thrill that you get being on stage and people chanting, like, I have to imagine it is very addictive. And. And I say this with compassion for him, for both of them, honestly, because I think it's really hard to be in a public relationship, but I think that people are going to like him better pursuing that and being honest that that is his priority right now and. And letting her go find somebody else who will fulfill what it is that she's looking for. And I think they'll both be happier. And honestly, from the press, it seems like they already are. And it kind of is. Like, they both loved each other and they Were trying to make it work, but, like, they wanted different things. And that in itself will cause so much turmoil.
- [15:59]
Carl
It kind of paralyzed Carl and Lindsey, parallels them because when Carl and Lindsey finally split, now people are seeing them kind of come back together and goof around, but then actually see them successful on their own.
- [16:11]
Nick
I feel for Kyle in the sense that, like, and again, maybe this is all for show. Maybe this isn't all who Kyle is. But if, if Kyle can't change the way he views his responsibility to show up in a relationship, he's just never going to be happy in a relationship outside the honeymoon phase. You know, most likely you can. You know, a guy who's deejaying, you know, he'll. Yeah, he'll get a girlfriend, she'll think he's great for a while. You know, it'll, it'll feel. He'll be like, yeah, this. I finally am dating someone who I have a lot in common with. And. But it just, it never ages well.
- [16:50]
Natalie Joy
And I think he's gonna keep searching for that fulfillment in, in these, like, pursuits. And I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that you really find fulfillment in that. I, I think that if he really does want a relationship, he is gonna have that cycle of new girlfriend. Oh, this is exciting. She validates me X, Y and Z. But then he's gonna let her down and it's going to be this continuous cycle. And I say I could be completely wrong, but I do think that that will probably be the case. And it will be a continuous case until he either realizes I'm not getting fulfillment, I need to look at myself and figure this out. But it might, it might be 10 years from now. Like, I feel like in here it might never.
- [17:26]
Susie
40 year old man.
- [17:27]
Justin
Yeah. I mean, it's like Kyle Cook. There is a, there's a madman esque energy to Kyle Cook of just like you will always just be searching for that thing.
- [17:41]
Natalie Joy
Exactly.
- [17:42]
Justin
And unless you let yourself have it, you're never gonna find it.
- [17:46]
Nick
Yeah, I know. Yeah, it's. Do you think there's a part of him that. Especially since Jesse and West showed up, two very charismatic kind of party boys who are leaning into like, hey, I'm. I have this public Persona now. I'm single. Like, I'm open to relationship, but hey, like, I'm not right now. I'm just kind of comfortable being single and having that freedom, which at their stage in life makes a lot of sense. You know, they're, they, they, they realize that Maybe they're not ready for a relationship and they're obviously a bit younger. But do you think, you know, watching Jesse and Wes come in, you have Kyle almost resenting the fact that when he does go out, he has to behave himself and he can't lean in and he can't, like, really enjoy the attention he receives from all the people who give him the attention when he's out.
- [18:34]
Carl
I believe he's kind of had this behavior in previous seasons prior to Jessie and Wes. I could be wrong. I think what it is is more Amanda wanting to actually settle down and being vocal about that, which is kind of like showing to him that it's not what he wants.
- [18:52]
Nick
I would be really curious to ask him. Like you said, your greatest fear in life is to not have a family by the time your parents pass. And I don't know how old his par parents are, and hopefully they're with us for a long time. But he said it as if, like, he doesn't think he has a great deal of time left. And if that is your greatest fear, then what are you doing about making sure, prioritizing to avoiding your greatest fear, coming to life? Because all the things he seems to be prioritizing have nothing to do with making sure his greatest fear doesn't come.
- [19:24]
Natalie Joy
Or maybe he's become a reality. Maybe he's just now realizing that that's his greatest fear. Like, that could be too. I don't know that. I don't know. Cause I haven't watched. But I'm like, if this hasn't come up before, maybe this is coming up because he's realizing, oh, I'm choosing this path rather than this path. And that could mean the difference of my parents being around for that part of my life or not. Because when you. When you get divorced and when you break up in a serious relationship at this point in our lives, like when you're in your 30s or whatever, like, you're realizing, like, oh, there's several years ahead before I get to that point most of the time. And you're like this. It makes a big difference in your timeline. And so maybe he's coming to that realization. And it's definitely the right choice based on their behavior, but it might be a hard pill to swallow.
- [20:06]
Nick
Yeah, I mean, you're right. You're always like, if you end a relationship, you're thinking like three or four years. You know, you meet, you know, unless I meet someone tomorrow. Let's. You give yourself 6 to 12 months to meet someone, and then like 6 to 12 months to date and 6 to 12 months to get engaged. That. And that's assuming everything's fast tracked.
- [20:28]
Natalie Joy
Right.
- [20:29]
Nick
You know, and that's still three to five years.
- [20:32]
Justin
I want to talk about Sierra and West a little bit.
- [20:34]
Nick
The love of his life.
- [20:36]
Justin
I am giggling and kicking my feet. I want them together so bad.
- [20:42]
Natalie Joy
I don't even know the lore, but I do too. I'm seeing things online, and I'm like, wait, there's.
- [20:46]
Ashley
Don't worry about the war.
- [20:47]
Justin
Don't worry about the war.
- [20:48]
Ashley
Okay.
- [20:49]
Nick
I think there's just a couple of hotties who love to give each other the attention they enjoy.
- [20:55]
Justin
Exactly.
- [20:56]
Natalie Joy
But he's.
- [20:57]
Nick
And I think it's great right where it is. They've healed a little bit. Most of the hurt has subsided. There's still a friendship there. There's still mutual. Expect when they both feel lonely for whatever reason in their interpersonal or dating lives, they can validate each other. Maybe even they have a great makeout. I don't know. You know? You know, have fun on the dance floor. Be a date at the wet. Maybe. Maybe a date at the wedding's a little too on the nose for them. That's part two.
- [21:24]
Carl
On the nose.
- [21:25]
Nick
Yeah, we can skip that one. But nevertheless, I think they're in a good spot. And they tried the serious romantic feeling.
- [21:34]
Justin
Thing, and it doesn't work for everyone.
- [21:37]
Nick
It doesn't work for them. So, no, I don't want them to get together. I want them to sit right where they are, and it seems like it works for them.
- [21:44]
Carl
Look, I watched Wuthering Heights, and that showed me that love can be truly toxic. And I know Sierra was at the Wuthering Heights premiere, so she watched it too. And I just want her to know if she's gonna choose to go with Wes. Girl, listen to yourself. Be honest with yourself.
- [21:58]
Natalie Joy
Oh, really?
- [21:59]
Carl
Or so we don't repeat cycles.
- [22:01]
Monique Samuels
Oh, okay.
- [22:02]
Justin
Or maybe just. It's like, I. I think what's happening is they're kind of just meeting each.
- [22:06]
Ashley
Other where they're at.
- [22:07]
Justin
So it's like, I'm not giggling and kicking my feet because I think Sierra and West are gonna get married in our end game. I'm just like, this is fun.
- [22:15]
Carl
Yeah, it's so cute. But it's also, like, we saw how, like, serious and intense that, like, Fallout was, and, like, it really is up to Sierra to feel comfortable to enter that again.
- [22:24]
Monique Samuels
Yeah.
- [22:25]
Carl
Which is what west was saying. Wes was literally like, I can't tell.
- [22:27]
Justin
Yeah. West is like, I can't tell if she. If we're friends, we're flirting, or if she hates his guts.
- [22:33]
Carl
Yeah.
- [22:33]
Nick
Which is exciting. That's exciting. That's part of the thrill. That's why he's so.
- [22:38]
Natalie Joy
That's the most fun part. I feel like.
- [22:41]
Ashley
Yeah, it's.
- [22:42]
Natalie Joy
Everyone loves to be, like, confused and then get dangled along a little bit. Like, even though you don't want to.
- [22:47]
Nick
I'll never forget when I was in high school, I was graduating high school, and some girl who was, like, in a different friend group, and I. You know, I thought she got really cute, and she's like, I don't like you. And I'm like, in my mind, I'm thinking, I love you.
- [22:58]
Ashley
Yeah.
- [22:58]
Nick
You know, like, as soon as.
- [23:00]
Natalie Joy
As soon as she said that.
- [23:02]
Jay Manuel
Yeah.
- [23:02]
Nick
Oh, my God. That was, like, the most romantic thing I've ever heard in my life.
- [23:06]
Jay Manuel
Oh, my God. You're gonna be mean to me.
- [23:08]
Carl
Yeah.
- [23:08]
Jay Manuel
I'm gonna fall in love with you. You hate me.
- [23:11]
Carl
You hate me.
- [23:12]
Monique Samuels
This is perfect.
- [23:13]
Natalie Joy
I love a challenge. I love.
- [23:17]
Nick
Was, like, the best Valentine's Day card ever. I hate your guts. Like, oh, my God. But y reminds me of that. And it's fun, and it's exhilarating, and it's like, they have a great thing going right now. Don't ruin it with real feelings.
- [23:31]
Carl
You know, it's interesting. Her friendship with Jesse Solomon.
- [23:34]
Justin
Yeah.
- [23:35]
Carl
They were feuding, but this season, they're.
- [23:36]
Justin
Like, she's like, you should date a girl like me, not me.
- [23:39]
Carl
They're, like, giving advice to each other, and they're being like, healthy friendship, kind of.
- [23:43]
Justin
They're girling out.
- [23:44]
Carl
Yeah. He's one of the girls.
- [23:46]
Justin
He is one of the girls.
- [23:47]
Nick
Another great friendship where it's just like, I don't think I want to date this person. We've never done anything physically, but I recognize they're an attractive person and the other person feels the same way. And it's always like, the, what if we did fuck? Yeah, kind of. That's also fun.
- [24:02]
Carl
Didn't they try, like, kind of teasing a relationship last season? Or am I wrong?
- [24:06]
Justin
There was, like, a moment they leaned in.
- [24:07]
Carl
They leaned in a little bit.
- [24:08]
Nick
Right.
- [24:09]
Justin
But obviously with Lexi. Well, because that caused drama with. With Jesse and Lexi. But also, did you guys notice Jesse being like, yeah, Lexi was in a real relationship.
- [24:19]
Carl
The flashbacks to Lexi, crazy.
- [24:20]
Justin
I was like, he just said that with full chest. I know. That girl is pissed.
- [24:25]
Nick
Oh, another thing I thought about, first of all, like, K.J. what a. Really appreciate his vulnerability. His abs are just.
- [24:31]
Justin
I felt the exact same way.
- [24:33]
Nick
Very impressive.
- [24:34]
Justin
Yeah.
- [24:35]
Nick
But as, as, as KJ talked about his relationship with his father, who by the way, a professional baseball player, if I'm, if I'm correct. Right. So his dad, from a professional standpoint, very accomplished. And he, and he told this story about his one day his dad, who he didn't know, showed up with a bunch of gifts. And I feel like that's the path that Kyle is on. He's super fixated on being professionally successful while saying, you know, yeah, I want kids and I want a family someday and I hope my parents meet my kids. But like, he just never. He's not showing that that's something he really cares about. And is he gonna end up being the dad who like shows up with a bunch of gifts and thinks like, that's enough to make your, like your kids feeling validated and feeling cared for and feeling seen? And it just made me really sad because there are a lot of parents out there like that.
- [25:27]
Carl
Yeah.
- [25:28]
Nick
Especially dad.
- [25:28]
Carl
What keeps you playing in my head is Amanda last season being like, when does work stop? Like, work never stops for Kyle.
- [25:36]
Ashley
That's the thing.
- [25:37]
Susie
Like, he's never prioritized her. It was like, lover Boy, now DJing. I'm sure there's been other things in the mic. Drinking, going out, partying. Like, she's just never been his priority. And it's so sad.
- [25:49]
Nick
And you can be a hard ass working person who is, is very career focused and still show up for the people you love.
- [25:57]
Carl
Yeah.
- [25:58]
Natalie Joy
I will say I like that they're showing the reality of this on tv. I don't think it's super common to see a relationship unfold.
- [26:07]
Nick
I mean, honestly, I was thinking about that too. And they're just like, it's got to be so meta for them to like just be taking off like the gloves or, or the handcuffs or the filters and just, I mean, I have to believe at this point we're watching, they both know it's over and they are deciding to lean in.
- [26:28]
Jay Manuel
Yeah.
- [26:29]
Natalie Joy
That being said, I hope they're okay. Like, not to be cheesy, but I'm like, I hope they're okay. It's so hard to watch back any even positive things online about your or on tv, about yourself. So like, I feel like as we are talking about it, I'm like, oh. I just, I'm grateful that people are vulnerable enough to go on TV and share it because it is really interesting and it is very real. Like, like all us talking about it. I'm like, it's not that we haven't seen this in our own friend groups or experienced it ourselves. Like, this is the reality of being married or dating or whatever it is. And, like, to be vulnerable and do it on TV is a lot, so.
- [27:03]
Nick
Well, that's why I started by saying, like, I'm not, like, looking to defend Kyle, but Kyle is a person who clearly, he feels strongly about his feelings. And whether he's right or wrong or whether we connect with his point of view, he feels victimized by it. And I am sad that he feels that way, but he can't, like. Yeah. And that. And other people are having a hard time relating to his point of view anyway.
- [27:32]
Jay Manuel
Yeah.
- [27:33]
Nick
All right, well, we have Ashley up next to talk about all the drama going on in Love is Blind, especially her relationship with Alex, which we have a lot of questions to ask. Ashley, welcome to the show.
- [27:46]
Ashley
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
- [27:49]
Nick
Very excited to have you.
- [27:51]
Ashley
I'm a little nervous.
- [27:52]
Nick
Oh, don't be nervous. Well, let's start. Let's start off with a softball. Why did you join this show? Obviously, I'm always. I asked this a question to everyone. It's so. It's such a fascinating experiment. Certainly not for everybody. But I'm just curious about what led you to be willing to take such a crazy. Yeah, exciting, but crazy, you know, risk, I guess, in your love story, so to speak.
- [28:14]
Ashley
Yes. So it was actually, like, a very crazy opportunity that just came up for me, and I'm like, a big person on signs. And I had just gone through a pretty tough breakup. I had dated this guy for five years. We broke up, and instantly, like, all these positive things started happening to me. I got a new promotion. I got a new apartment. I got all these things happening. And then all of a sudden, like, my friends were like, you need to go out for Love is Blind. And I was kind of like, no. Like, I don't want to be that girl. But they started reaching out to me, and again, I was kind of like, okay, this is a sign. Like, if they're reaching out, like, there's gotta be some good to come from this. So they, like, slid into my DMs, and they were like, let's. Let's set up a call. And I instantly started, like, freaking out. I was like, this is crazy. But in the past, I'm not going to lie. Like, I go for looks, and I think a lot of people do that. Like, you instantly see someone and you're like, that guy has an appearance that I like, and, you know, you go for that. And as my dad has said, everybody said, I've got a bad picker. I go for looks, and then I kind of, like, forget about everything else. So I was like, well, this is a great opportunity to find out, like, after my breakup, if I've really healed, if I've grown, and I can trust myself to make a good decision about someone based off of everything else other than the looks. So I was like, why not try it? You know, I wasn't ready for dating apps. I was just like, I was on it for five minutes, and I was like, I can't have another conversation that's like, what's your favorite color? Like, I don't care. So this really kind of, like, throws you in to forcefully trust yourself to ask hard questions very early on in knowing someone. And I think that's kind of what appealed to me. I was like, I won't be able to see what they look like. I'm gonna fall for this person based off of if they match my values, my morals, and, like, what I want in my life, rather than, oh, my God, he's so cute. So I think that's why I was, like, ultimately interested in it.
- [30:14]
Nick
That's awesome. I'm curious, how was your relationship different with Alex once you got out of the pods and. Or what changes did you notice in him once you guys were out of the pods?
- [30:26]
Ashley
I think it was so different for me in the pods because I read a lot of body language, and my dad kind of says it too. Like, honesty is written all over the body.
- [30:35]
Carl
Yeah.
- [30:36]
Ashley
So in the pods, I'm going off of a voice telling me things. I don't know if he's pacing around nervously. I don't know, you know, if he's, like, looking a certain way, if there's, like, infliction, like, different things go into it. So I think once I was out of the pods, I'm very analytical. I'm pretty logical. So I was, like, catching myself kind of picking up on those things. And I ask a lot of questions. I know I do. And I'm just a curious person. I'm still getting to know this person outside of the pods, and we're still on this journey to get married at the end of this. So I ask a lot of questions, and if something, you know, it, like, sounds a little bit different than what we talked about in the pods or something doesn't add up, I ask more questions. And with Alex, it was just hard for me. Cause I already ask a lot of questions. I'm already a yapper. And then out of the pods, I could catch those little, like, micro expressions or anything he was doing with his body language. And if something didn't add up, I'd ask more questions. And it's so hard. He has such a crazy, unique, interesting story. So I think, like, the more I asked those questions, I could kind of feel it in him. It was like, we've already talked about this. And I'm like, I know. But I, like, it's really hard for me to keep track because he's been all over the world, he's traveled, he's lived different places, he's had these different jobs. And I could kind of tell, like, he was probably like, why is this girl asking me so many questions? But again, I'm there to find my husband. Like, I need to make sure this person is telling me everything I need to know before I say I do at that altar.
- [32:09]
Susie
I do feel like out of anyone, he probably enjoys talking about himself more than anything else.
- [32:17]
Ashley
Watching it back, I'm like, did I say things like, did I speak? Oh, I'm like, I think in the pods, like, I was like, yeah, yeah. I'm like, can you say something else?
- [32:27]
Nick
It's also, obviously, I mean, edited. I'm sure there's a lot we don't get to see. But I am curious about if you can remember back in the pods, because we know, like, you know, maybe they just didn't show it and maybe you experienced it. But once you guys got out of the pods, the way Alex spoke, I was like, he asked himself a lot of questions while communicating to you. It's like, am I like this? I don't know, you know, and usually when someone does that to me, that's them trying to, like, convince themselves of what they're saying. And I'm curious, did he speak that way in the pods and maybe we just didn't get to see it, or was that a change up after you guys got to meet each other in person?
- [33:04]
Ashley
I think it. It is hard to think back, but I think, like, we were just yapping in the pods. I mean, people don't understand. Like, they showed very specific moments from our pods. And we are in there for, like, hours, and we talk about everything. So I'm sure there's moments where I'm just, like, yapping about nonsense. And, like, he's also just doing the same. But in the pods, like, I love to listen to people. I love to ask questions. So that they can talk about themselves. I think people, like, they love to talk about themselves, and I want to learn about them. So I don't remember in the pods being like, oh, my God, land the plane. You know, like, what are we talking about? We're going in circles. I don't really remember that. And then, like, even after I was like, I don't really remember being in that moment. I think I was just like, I like listening to him talk about himself and, like, his passions. And that's what you do when you're in love with someone, right? Like, you want them to talk about everything that they love. You want to learn what makes them tick. You want to learn the good, the bad, the ugly. And I guess I was just, like, letting him express himself, because usually I'm the one that won't shut up. And it's very strange to see me on the other side of that when the camera's on.
- [34:08]
Susie
What was your reaction to watching the reality of the conversation between Alex and Britney?
- [34:17]
Ashley
Yeah, that was. I hadn't seen that. I didn't know about that conversation. I did know, like, his type is someone that looks like Britney. And I think there's, like, a misconception that I'm like, how dare he go for Britney? But, like, look at her. Like, she's a stunning woman. I said it in the pods with all the girls. I was like, if a man doesn't choose me and he chooses one of these other girls, I'm like, he's making a good decision. Because all these women are strong, they're ambitious, they're beautiful inside and out. And I can't fault Alex for being like, I'm attracted to her. We all have, like, certain people and attributes that we look for. However, it was, like, a little bit more flirty than I like to, like, watch. But I can't fault him for having a type. And Brittany's very attractive. She's beautiful. But I do think, like, for anyone on the show, if you're going to go onto a show where you're taking away the looks aspect, this isn't the show for you. And it kind of came across as like, oh, we're just playing this game. And I was like, this ain't. This isn't a game to me. Like, this is my life. This is gonna be my marriage. And I think maybe a different Netflix dating show would have been better if that's what he wanted.
- [35:29]
Susie
Well, you can't fault him for being attracted to Britney. You can fault him for lying to your face. I mean, you were flat out like, did you have any flirty conversations? And he was like, did I flirt?
- [35:43]
Nick
I don't know.
- [35:43]
Susie
Did they take it as me flirting? I don't know.
- [35:44]
Nick
I am. Other people might think it's flirting, but I don't. I mean, I. I definitely don't think it was flirting, but like, I don't know. You have to watch the tape.
- [35:50]
Susie
And then he's like, I just care about Brittany and Devonta. It's like, that's not the conversation at all.
- [35:56]
Ashley
Yeah, it was definitely. And that's what I mean. Like, with the body language and like seeing him kind of almost nervous answering my questions about that. I was like, what are you not telling me? And I think you can literally tell on my face. But I'm just like, okay, we're gonna see where this goes. This is like the first time everybody is seeing everyone meeting everybody. So I was like, I'm gonna give him like some grace, you know, like, it's okay to be attracted to different people. For me. It's not realistic for me to be like, oh, he's never gonna find another girl attractive other than me, especially since I'm not his normal type. But I just think there's a time and place for everything. And if he was feeling so strongly that way, like, yeah, have a conversation with me. I'm not gonna like, scream and riot in the streets. Like, I know Britney's beautiful, so it was a little strange, but at the end of the day, like, she's beautiful, but if you are so picky, then different show.
- [36:47]
Nick
You spoke a lot about how hot you thought Alex is. Was and good for him for, I guess, being a beautiful guy. But I'm curious, when you saw him and you're like, oh my God, this guy's so hot. Did that make you a little bit nervous? You know, I just feel like obviously, like, there's pretty privilege, right? I don't, you know, if he's, if he's that good looking of a guy, it's hard to believe that he really would be open to not prioritizing looks. And once you got out of the pods, there he's. I forgot what, where it was. It was when you guys were still in Mexico, but he was like, looks are still really important part of a relationship. And it's like, yeah, we know, but this is. Love is blind, you know? And it's kind of like, did you sign up to see if you could also emotionally connect with someone and hope that they're beautiful, or were you open to ignoring the Physical attributes as much as the rest of the cast seem to be.
- [37:41]
Ashley
I was open to, like, anything. Anything this experiment threw my way, I was like, I'm here for it. I was attracted to Alex. Like, I am attracted to Alex. He's a very good looking guy. I think when I saw him, I was just like, oh, I didn't even think about that. That's a really good question. I think I was just like, oh, he's good looking and he's a good person. Because we had all these conversations and it was like, you know, I. I fell for who he was as a person and what he was telling me in the pods and things like that. It was icing on the cake that, oh, I'm actually really attracted to him as well. But I think, like, if he didn't look the way he did, I would have still felt the same way. And I. When I go into something, I put 110% into it. And, you know, if there's things we need to work through, there's things we need to work through, whether it's his looks, you know, if there's any other deal breakers that may have been broken. There's things you always have to work through in a relationship. But I was going into this being like, looks don't matter. Like, you can't think that looks matter because I think even Alex says it, you know, like after, I think he said like 35, looks go downhill. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm 34. I was like, you know, I'm not always going to have like the looks. You know, we're all aging. We all go through different phases. Kids can bring changes. So I was like, I'm never, I'm not always going to look this way. I can't expect him to be picked up picture perfect either. So looks don't really matter to me. And that's how I'm going into, like any relationship with Alex, with anyone else. Like, I just. Looks don't really matter to me anymore. I need someone who has a good heart and treats me well. I do have non negotiables. Cheating and lying is one of two of them. I don't know. Those are the things that are important to me now, not looks.
- [39:19]
Nick
I want to talk about the sex conversation that you guys had an episode.
- [39:23]
Ashley
Which one?
- [39:24]
Nick
Just kidding. Lots to unpack there. But I'm curious, have you watched that scene?
- [39:29]
Ashley
I have unfortunately watched all my scenes, yes.
- [39:31]
Nick
Okay.
- [39:33]
Ashley
With my eyes.
- [39:33]
Nick
Like, there's always, like, it's always really interesting. You're in A very unique position because most of us, you know, in life don't get to, like, literally watch the tape of conversations we had. Right. And sometimes we can watch it back, be like, oh, you know, I was kind of in this fight or flight mode. But, like, this person, they really seem to be trying to figure out ways to get out of this relationship. I'm not sure how you saw it, and obviously you were there, but how did you interpret that conversation on, like, I guess, like, a higher level. We'll get into the weeds of, like, period sex and things like that. But I. I'm curious, watching it back, what do you think Alex's motivation in that conversation was?
- [40:10]
Ashley
So which. Which scene was it? Unfortunately, I have to ask that question.
- [40:14]
Nick
It started with him nitpicking about the fridge and stuff. And then the period. That conversation, the period moving to Florida, it was at the kitchen table.
- [40:23]
Ashley
Yeah. Watching that back, it is strange. Like, I. I'm a cleaner. I, like, I love. I love to clean. When I'm stressed, I clean. So I'm in this crazy experiment, gonna get married in, like, five minutes. And, yeah, I'm a little stressed, so I'm gonna clean. And my. Like, the fridge, I just love it to look like I'm on MTV Cribs or something. So, yeah, I move the water bottles a little bit when it comes to, like, the sexual talk there. I'm in my 30s. Like, you can touch me when I'm on my period. First of all, sorry, I know that's kind of weird to say, but it's just, like, a weird conversation to have with a grown adult. I'm like, do we need to take you back to, like, sex ed or something? Like, do you not know how the human body works? And can't fault him for that. But it was just a very, like, strange conversation to have. And thinking back, I was like, this will never air. Of course it's aired.
- [41:14]
Nick
I was saying this to the team. It's just hard to imagine, especially when he was talking about, like, not wanting to have kids, as if that was like, of course. You know, it's just like, he did. He said a lot of things where it's like. At first, it's like, of course that's a valid thing to say, but it's just like, I don't know if I really believe it, right? It's like, okay, you're not ready to have kids. No one wants you to, you know, and obviously you want to practice safe sex. But were you bringing this same energy, Alex, in your soccer Playing days in college, in your early 20s. There's condoms and things like that. Like, I mean, I think the. The typical stereotype of men is like, if they really want something, they will. They will eliminate all excuses, you know? And Alex, in that conversation, like, every. I mean, it's just like, honestly, the fact that you felt the need even to explain to our audience about you cleaning, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, the fact that he's gonna make a big deal about, like, the water bottle being on the second shelf instead of the first one. It's like, really, Alex? You know, it's like every part of that conversation was a him trying to, like, poke holes in the relationship or find the cracks. And then he finally got into this whole, like, thing, which is. Was kind of a bananas conversation.
- [42:28]
Monique Samuels
Yeah.
- [42:28]
Ashley
I'm not gonna lie, that conversation, watching it back felt like an eternity. So with Alex, I was just kind of like, watching it back. I was like, are you looking for a way out of this? Because we had those conversations, like, like I said in the pods, you talk about everything. There's not like one stone unturned. So we did talk about, like, I'm not on birth control and, like, I don't want those hormones in my body just because I'm much more, like, holistic in that approach. And what was not shown is like, you know, I had this ex boyfriend for five or six years. I track my ovulation. Like, I'm a woman. Like, I do these things to take care of my body. So it was just like an out of pocket comment. And I was just like, where is this coming from? But at that point, after Mexico, it was definitely like a switch for him. I was like, are you attracted to me? And I even. I think I even say it. I'm like, you know, we had this conversation. I'm not your normal type. Is that in the back of your mind? And I think he also kind of just brushes it under the carpet again. And I'm like, okay, everything's good. Let's go golf.
- [43:32]
Susie
The way that he offered to have a shared tracking app so that he could also know, like.
- [43:41]
Natalie Joy
Like, he doesn't believe you.
- [43:42]
Susie
Like, you're not gonna. Like, it was the most wild. Yeah, like, I'm sorry, you want to share my tracking app? That's insane. Were you, like, in that. I mean, I know you're like, that's not necessary. But in that moment, were you like, this is insane?
- [43:57]
Ashley
It was because he kind of goes into like, oh, you're not initiating. And I'M like, well, a woman wants to feel wanted. And if your body language is telling me something different, I'm not gonna just, like, smother you with my love. And the shared tracker. I'm gonna give him some, like, props here. Like, he was trying, but I'm like, no, you don't need to know my ovulation schedule or my period schedule.
- [44:21]
Nick
I. I guess. In what way was he trying?
- [44:24]
Ashley
It was some kind of compromise. He's putting something on him to take those actions to show, like, maybe he does care, and he wants to make sure we're having safe sex and not having a baby. And I'm not ready for kids. Like, I don't know if he was thinking I was trying to trap him. I'm not ready. He travels a lot. I'm like, that'll be impossible. Not impossible, but very hard. If we have babies running around, we can't go overseas. And, like, it's. It's just a lot more challenging. So I was like, I don't want babies either, so I'm not trying to trap you.
- [44:56]
Nick
Did he have, like, almost a scare in earlier relationships?
- [45:01]
Ashley
I don't think he got anyone. Oopsie. A scare or whatever. Um, the conversation we have that's Joan, is basically all that I know about any exes he may have. He wasn't very open about that. Um, and I think even, like, with my friends, he was just like, I don't really like to talk about the past, and I'm kind of, like, the opposite. I'm like, the past has made me who I am. The past is why I am the way I am going into any relationship in the future. So I'm very open about it, and I hope that my story can, like, relate to someone, I guess, or, like, it helps someone understand where they may be at in a relationship. But with Alex, I was like, he was an accident himself, so maybe he's just not trying to have that repeated. And it's scary. I get it. Like, if a girl's like, I'm not on birth control, it's probably scary for a guy. But I was very open about that. And I also like it. It wasn't really shown. But in that conversation, I do go back to my last relationship, and I was like, I was in this relationship for five years. I had no problems. And what's also not shown is that my ex actually got a girl pregnant, like, a few months after we had broken up. So I was like, it's not me. I wasn't the problem.
- [46:12]
Susie
When you said so when I'm on my period, I'm like, the play. I mean, like, did he ever answer that of like, oh, my God. I mean, like, was that true when you were on your period? He was just like, not going to.
- [46:24]
Ashley
Be intimate with you? I. I guess. And I know, like, it's probably weird for some guys, I guess, but no, Ashley, like, I'm every woman. Like, yeah, we are adults.
- [46:35]
Susie
That is part of.
- [46:36]
Nick
I think they only care when they choose to care.
- [46:38]
Ashley
Yeah. I think if anything, like, as a woman, like, we're actually more horny on our periods. So not to feed into my, like, over sexualized Persona on the show, but if anything, I'm like, oh, touch me more.
- [46:52]
Susie
That he's like a grown adult and he's.
- [46:55]
Nick
I'm curious. What did you think about his relationship slash, slash situationship that was potentially overlapped him coming on the show?
- [47:04]
Ashley
Yeah, I, I didn't love that. I remember that conversation. And I just, like, I said, I ask a lot of questions and you can kind of tell on my face in that conversation, I was like, did I just. Did I just catch you lying about possibly cheating? Which are again, two of my, like, non negotiables. Like, you cheat, you lie. I'm out. Especially, like, maybe they were like little white lies to some people. So watching that, they may be like, she's like, overreacting. But again, I'm finding a husband. I'm about to marry this man. And we're creating a foundation based off of a lie. And I'm. I'm gonna dig deeper into that. If it's. If it's honest, then tell me the truth. If it's not, we need to have a different conversation. And he kind of goes into that, the, the why behind, you know, why he went to Austin to see his ex. And, you know, it cleared things up. But I've been cheated on so much in the past where I was like, it was in the back of my mind for sure. And I think you could kind of see it on my face.
- [48:05]
Carl
I am curious. You mentioned that you. You feel like you have a sexualized personality on the show. I remember you mentioning the dragon smut, which I thought was relatable and hilarious. Do you think that's just the way the show is portraying you?
- [48:20]
Ashley
So people have been asking me that since the first drop. That is like, very much me. I do say these things. Like, I am a very, like, sexual person. My friends will all tell you that I'm very confident. And I think that's important for every woman. To have. And I think it's okay to share that. Yeah, I don't love that. It was like, everything. Everything I said was like a little middle school boy joking around. But I do very much, like, have those conversations with my girlfriends. I do kind of want the audience to see a little bit more of me. You meet my family, and they are everything to me. My family is my brother's, my best friend, my dad, I'm literally his twin copy paste. And my mom and dad's relationship is kind of the foundation that I want for my relationship. My family is what I build. My morals, my ethics, anything I value is built around them. So I kind of wish that was shown a little bit more in the pods because me and Alex really did relate a lot on that, especially when it came to our grandparents. I was so close with my grandfather and my grandmother, and Alex obviously had a very good relationship with his as well. So I kind of wish they showed that a little bit more. Just like the first episode, me being like, sex.
- [49:39]
Nick
It's the curse of reality tv. We often get siloed into very specific characters.
- [49:45]
Ashley
I knew I was. I mean, I knew what I was doing. I was. I was on camera. There's a thousand cameras around me all the time. I should have, you know, shut my mouth.
- [49:53]
Nick
You did great.
- [49:55]
Ashley
Thanks.
- [49:56]
Natalie Joy
I'm curious, when you were in the pods, you. Well, you know, you've now said that you've typically gone for guys that were really attractive, and that was maybe the more important thing. Even though you knew deep down there was deeper levels to it. When you were in the pods and you were talking to him, did you get the sense that he was a hot guy? Like, I'm curious if you had this inkling of, like, oh, he's a soccer player. Like, the way he talks, like, he. He feels like my typical type. I have a good feeling that he's going to be really good looking. And did that steer your decision at all? And I'm also curious, did you also have this. You know, when you, like, get into a relationship and you just, like, know one way or the other, did you feel any of that in the pods and did it change. Changed once you got out?
- [50:39]
Ashley
So, like, it's so weird. You're literally staring at, like, this orange wall. Like, I think I say it. You're hypnotized almost. Alex does have, like, a very, like, sultry voice, and I think that's why I just, like, let him talk so much. And it's just him constantly talking and talking, but he does have, like a very good voice. Soccer player, I was like, that could go either way. I mean, he could be tall, he could be short. I didn't really know what to expect with that, but I had, I had no idea, like, what he was going to look like. I just thought he would. I thought he was brunette. I thought he was going to be definitely tan because he's an athlete. I don't know. He's outside playing soccer, Lived all these other places, but that was really all I could see. And I remember thinking about it when I was in the pods. I'm like, all I see is like this, like, mannequin almost. And the face is just like a bright light. And I could only really see that with Alex. And I kind of say it. He was like my best friend in the pods. We just, just, we talked. And every time I was going into the pods, I was like, I want it to be Alex. But I didn't really, like, I don't know. I mean, when you're doing your reveal, that was probably the most nerve wracking point of this entire experience because I was like, what am I doing? It was almost like the Hunger Games when, like, Katniss comes up and she's like, disoriented. They're like strobing this light behind you, and you just, like, don't know what's going to be on the other side of this. I was getting all these Instagrams where it's like the cringiest reveals, and I was like, please don't be me. But you just don't really know what to expect. And I guess that's the easiest way for me to put it into words that makes sense.
- [52:08]
Susie
Well, before we let you go, what is your opinion on some of the other couples?
- [52:14]
Ashley
So Christine and Vic's story, I always, like, I was dying to see, like, the behind the, like, in the pods, like, their conversations, dying to see their reveal. So I think that's the one that I was most, like, eating my popcorn, like, tuning into. And I just, like, really love watching their story. They're just like two very pure souls. I love watching their love story.
- [52:38]
Jay Manuel
Love.
- [52:38]
Nick
It's awesome. Ashley, really appreciate you taking the time. Good luck the rest of the way. Very excited to see how everything unfolds for you. And yeah, just thanks for taking the time.
- [52:50]
Ashley
Yes, of course. Thank you so much.
- [52:52]
Nick
All right, thanks, Ashley.
- [52:53]
Ashley
Bye.
- [52:54]
Nick
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- [55:37]
Susie
Okay, I need to talk about my outfit for a second because this is not your average sports merch. I'm wearing Hype and Vice repping the Milwaukee Bucks and I feel like I'm giving courtside baddie.
- [55:47]
Nick
It not only looks good, but the quality feels top tier.
- [55:51]
Susie
It really does. What I love is that Hype and Vice makes officially licensed NBA pieces that actually feel up to date. Think oversized mock neck crew necks, vintage baby tees, mini skirts, crop jerseys, cool varsity jackets. It's stuff you'd wear even if you weren't going to a game.
- [56:06]
Nick
This is not your basic T shirt merch. Not at all.
- [56:08]
Susie
Exactly. It's for the sports fans who care about style and their team. You can wear it to the arena out and about. Really anywhere. And it's not just NBA either.
- [56:18]
Nick
Nope. They have colleges, mls, soccer, and they're also adding NHL. So no matter who you root for, there is something for every fan.
- [56:27]
Susie
Plus, it's perfect if you're dressing as a couple, even if you're on rival teams just like us right now.
- [56:34]
Nick
So if you're over basic fan gear and just want something that feels elevated, check out Hype and Vice.
- [56:40]
Susie
Go to hype and vice.com and shop your team. Use code V I A L L1 5 for 15 off your next order. That's V I A L L1 5for 15 off your next order.
- [56:51]
Nick
All you sports fans out there, you know there's so many like just crappy websites to get your favorite merch. But Hype and Vice has high quality jackets and other items that you're absolutely love when you want to support your favorite team. That's hypeinvice.com they're changing the game in sports apparel. All right, back to the show.
- [57:10]
Susie
Well, I'm interested to see how their relationship unfolds.
- [57:13]
Nick
Up next, a very riveting and honest conversation with Jay Manuel talking about Reality Check. America's Next Top Model documentary streaming now on Netflix. It's number one on Netflix and everyone is talking about it. And we have Jay himself to give us his very honest interpretation of all things regarding America's Next Top Model and the doc. Jay, welcome to the show. We are so grateful to have you.
- [57:37]
Jay Manuel
Thank you for having me. Oh, my gosh. I mean, it has been definitely a week, and I'm sure you guys got tons of questions.
- [57:44]
Nick
Yes. Yes, we do. And I can only imagine. I guess maybe my first question is, I've never been a part of a doc, and I've certainly watched a lot. And it often feels like when you watch it back, you ask yourself, I wonder what their expectations were when they were sitting down filming this versus how that doc came together. I'm curious, what were your expectations and has it met those expectations now that you're watching it unfold?
- [58:10]
Jay Manuel
Wow. So, first of all, yes, I've done a lot of television, and I've hosted a lot of live TV in my career, but never been in a doc myself. So it is certainly strange when you see the finished piece for the first time. But, you know, my expectations going into this ultimately were, you know, so I'm not here to change any minds. I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. I just wanted to answer the questions that were posed to me, and I was the geek in the room. When Netflix told us early on that they were bringing in more and Daniel and I just said, wait, are you serious? Because I'm that person who knows who works on docs, and I was already a fan of all their work, and I was waiting for Manhunt, Osama bin Laden to come out. So I thought, oh, my God, these people are known for their journalistic integrity. So I already felt safe in that moment. So as soon as I knew it was them and the first time we met, I said, you know, I'm excited about this. Like, I feel like this is a safe space. So when I sat down to start my interview, I wanted to underscore that there are no questions off the table. They can ask me anything about how I felt back to my childhood, which we did talk about. And I. I sat in a very reflective present state when I did those hours and hours and hours of interviews.
- [59:36]
Nick
I. I imagine it was. It felt a little therapeutic.
- [59:40]
Justin
Yeah.
- [59:40]
Jay Manuel
You knew? Yes and no. And I. And I'm gonna tell you why. I felt like I had done a lot of. I had worked through a lot of my. I guess just the. The. The frustration and a lot of the emotions when I was writing my novel, which came out few years before, and then I was doing press for that. And that's when I noticed what was bubbling up. And I thought, you know what? The work isn't done. I thought I had done the work to heal some of these issues. And I guess, you know, the things that I had internalized from being on that show, that I then stepped away and did more work and actually worked with a therapist. So by the time I sat down here, it didn't, you know, things weren't coming up for me in a super emotional way, and especially when I was speaking about my relationship with Tyra. But when watching the doc back, that was a different experience the first time because, you know, seeing the Shandy story play out, someone who was my favorite that season, who I thought was gonna win, and I'm lucky that I've been able to see Shandy since the show, and she knows how I feel about her. And I always felt that she was unfairly positioned in the show. So to see it play, especially at the top of episode two in Reality Check, I mean, I started bawling. So watching it was more emotional for me than actually sitting in my interviews.
- [61:08]
Monique Samuels
Oh, wow.
- [61:09]
Nick
Yeah.
- [61:09]
Susie
Can only imagine the Internet has really taken to, like, the lack of accountability that we've seen from Tyra. And I guess it was all like, oh, maybe this is when we'll get that. And we still didn't really get that. Did you see any accountability from Tyra in the documentary?
- [61:27]
Jay Manuel
The words I'll use, which maybe will, because I. I'm probably the one person in that entire documentary that knows an extremely personal side to her, more so than Ken Mock, unfortunately. I think what people saw was a very prepared television. Tyra. I know the real Tyra. And we've had a lot of time where she's spending. She says it in the dock, sleeping over at my house. She hates hotels. So when she was in New York, she was at my home, or if I was in la, I was at her home. And we've talked a lot. And there's so much that to this day, I keep in confidence, and I will forever keep in confidence. And I would not betray that even in the documentary. But there were no questions asked of me to, you know, To. To. To kind of bring those things forward. But I say all this to say there is a very strong woman who has been through a lot. I mean, as a black model in this industry that. That historically has treated black models poorly, underpaid them, made them feel less than. And aside from that, her own personal wounds, you know, if she had brought that vulnerability and the person that I know to the table, I think the world would have been much more receptive to the human being sitting in the documentary. But what we got was her armor Honestly, that's what you got, because I know her. And the only time you see her break that is when Moore, one of the directors, pushes the envelope and says, and asks her straight up, you know, is maybe now a good time to talk about what happened with you and Jay? And you see her break, that's the only time she breaks in the dock. And I wish she would have been able to speak to those girls because Dani's voice, Kenya's voice, Shandy, all of their voices were. You know, I think this would have been an amazing opportunity for her to really speak to these powerful women who chose to come forward. And I. She didn't.
- [63:31]
Nick
Do you think this is kind of like maybe the old school person in her that maybe just comes from different generation of celebrity? I mean, so much about this documentary obviously discusses just how reality TV was made back in the day versus, you know, how we are approaching it today. But, yeah, do you feel like it just comes from that or do you think it's deeper than that?
- [63:55]
Jay Manuel
Oh, it's absolutely deeper than that. And it's absolutely calculated. She knows better. She knows the industry. She knows how it works. And for people who know Ken and Tyre, of course, the amount of the producers that worked on this show and many of them, for fear of losing their current jobs, could not come forward and speak part of the documentary. But they have all contacted myself, Nigel especially. Cause Nigel and I were talking about this and, you know, everyone who knows them, you can tell, you know, Ken and Tyra prepared themselves together, but were interviewed separately on separate days. But they were absolutely aligned. Whereas everyone else in the documentary, myself, Nigel and Jay and I speak to us as being, you know, on the show versus the contestants. We did not. We went in and we just answered the questions that were asked of us, and that was that. And we didn't speak about it beforehand. We talked a bit about it after we did the interviews. Like, what did they ask you? You know, that kind of thing. But they were coordinated and you can see it.
- [65:03]
Susie
Speaking of, when she was asked about you, she said, like, that is for a phone call. You know, that's a private conversation. Have you had the chance to have that phone call with her yet?
- [65:14]
Natalie Joy
Yet?
- [65:15]
Jay Manuel
What do you think?
- [65:16]
Ashley
I think probably not.
- [65:18]
Jay Manuel
See, I don't even have to answer the questions honestly. Everyone's asked that. I mean, no, I've not had the phone call. My number's the same. She has my number. I didn't expect it. I kind of chuckled when I heard it in the doc, you know, and for her saying, oh, I'm not going to do that here. It's a phone call. He's a special man. You know, what's unfortunate is, you know, even in the documentary we play, you know, we talk about this email that I wrote in her response, you know, the producers had to see that email and it was very short. You know, I did have this pact with her. She didn't want to ever go through other people. And I wrote her the most lovely email of gratitude. And I was happy that I was helping to help her realize her dream with this show. She'd always encouraged me to branch out. By then I was an E correspondent doing live events and I had another show. And so I said to her, I'm going to focus on those other things and I'm here if you ever need me. And so there really. There was no fight, there was no falling out. So I think she just can't answer this question because her behavior is somewhat reprehensible. I mean, you know, when I was forced back, ultimately they, they asked me, you know, the timeline in the doc, if you want the real answer, because it's not super clear. They make it seem like I left and then they, they lurched me back. There was a little more time there. What happened was when I wrote that email, they were three months out of production for Cycle nine. So I was letting them know immediately I wasn't coming back. And so I didn't hear from anyone. It wasn't just her. I heard from no one. Ken Mock, not a producer, not a no one. And I thought, okay, I'm just gonna move on with my life. I knew they were screen testing people to replace me because I knew who was going in for these tests. And then when I was on vacation, which they talk about in the doc, that was actually two and a half weeks outside of them starting production. That's when they reached out and that's when they said, can we have you come back and do this one cycle as a favor? And they asked nicely through their business affairs from the parent network. And the honest answer was because I was now contracted with E. And the sister network with another show. I had then gone on board or had agreed to take part in another project they wanted me to be a co host on. And so my lawyer went back, said, unfortunately, Jay has another commitment. Now, you all know, and you all work in entertainment, how that is, that's often a game a lot of people play. Oh, I'm committed. The fact is, I was truly committed. They thought it was a game. So Then that's when the threats came and they thought I was playing a game. And the threat. And again, they didn't use the word blacklist. I wanna be clear, but it was heavily implied I would no longer be hired for anything on the parent network or any of their channels, which one of the big ones that Les Mumbaz ran. And once that, you know, people don't understand. I was in my 30s. My career trajectory was up. You know, when someone tells you that, they strike the fear of God in you. And I was petrified. So I said yes. E understood that I. I could not. I had to back out of a commitment. I went back and that's when I found out on the first day of set that not someone who I was close with, who was also the executive producer of the show, chose to fully ignore me. That's why when the cameras rolled, I didn't even know what to do. And so the first time I speak, it's her trying to get me to speak because clearly I was just in utter shock. And then the big question. It might be your next question. So sorry, Nick, if I'm jumping in her. The next question that everyone asks, they're like, okay, so it was cycle nine. But didn't you leave at 18? Yes. Happened was I made my way through cycle nine, which was horrible. But ultimately they asked me would I consider coming back if they promised me a safe environment and I wouldn't have to produce the photo shoots, just produce the final runways, because that is a beast unto itself. And I could do that for them. And the answer simply is, you know, I had already felt the ramifications of saying no. And at that time in my life, I was really struggling with being a people pleaser and making everyone happy. And I couldn't draw clear boundaries for myself. And I thought, I'll go back, I'll do the right thing. I'll cure everything. Everyone will be happy. But now, as I sit here with years past in my own therapy and my own work, I realize you can't. You can't fix misalignment. And. But I didn't know that then.
- [70:07]
Nick
Yeah. It's interesting, you kind of emphasized they didn't say the word blacklist, but it sounds like they strongly imply that you would be burning bridges, so to speak. Right. Because, like, you know, it's ultimately the same thing. But burning bridges is almost implied that we do that versus someone saying, I'm going to blacklist you.
- [70:25]
Jay Manuel
Yeah.
- [70:26]
Nick
And they put it on you. Yeah.
- [70:27]
Jay Manuel
They put it on you.
- [70:28]
Nick
Yeah.
- [70:28]
Jay Manuel
Yeah.
- [70:29]
Nick
I'M curious. Another thing that's being heavily talked about is we come to find that Ms. J had a. Had a stroke and obviously very devastating. But Tyra did not visit and has not. And, you know, whether it's not visiting, Ms. J. Not having that conversation with you, I'm sure you must have thought at times or at length. I mean, you seem to know her as well as anyone else, better than anyone else. And there's, you know, listen, I think it's quick online, people like to throw out diagnosis and names for why people behave a certain way. You know, why do you think. You know, they say time heals all wounds. Like, why do you think she has in no way made any attempt to mend those relationships, or at least even. Not even if it's to be friends again, but to just say, hey, I'm sorry if in any, you know, I'm sorry for this.
- [71:20]
Susie
You at one point meant so much to me, and now our relationship is so strained. I just want to acknowledge, like, she just hasn't done any of that. Yeah, why do you think she hasn't?
- [71:31]
Jay Manuel
I'll try and I'll try and answer all of that, starting with the Ms. J of it all. You know, Ms. J. When he first woke up out of his coma, you know, I knew his niece, who is a nurse who really ultimately saved his life to get the paramedics and ultimately get him to the hospital. But coming out of the coma and he could not speak, but ultimately they were communicating with him, and she called me and, and, and said, you know, my uncle wants to make sure that he sees you. Can you come to the hospital? He had just woken up. So I was like, absolutely, you know, when do you want me there? And I was three days later. And she said, you'll have alone time with him. And that first day, I spent four hours with Jay, and he was extremely frail and couldn't barely speak and, you know, obviously had lost use of the entire right side of his body. I didn't know if I was ever going to see him again, to be honest with you, because he had a large pocket of blood still on the brain they could not drain for fear that it could kill him. And so felt so important for me to be there, because who Jay was, you know, even through all our craziness and our antics and the show and the years and all that stuff, that was what he means to me, is he gave me the permission when we first went on TV together, and I only. I knew of Jay, but I only met him on the show in season one. And I knew at that time there was no representation on TV when it comes to the LGBTQ community. And Jay being very flamboyant and out there and me being openly gay but not on television, I thought, you know what? I can lean on him. And together, going forward, I was thinking, like, you know, they can't attack us, but, like, we can do this together. And this was pre queer. I. You know, and so for me, I will forever be in, like, indebted to him in some way, because it's just, like, he allowed me to be authentically myself on TV at a time when people were not used to seeing us on television. So start with that. That's why I went. What's not even clear in the documentary? And I'll clear it up right here. You know, he had the stroke in 2022. Ken Mock actually reached out that year to. To Jay, which. Which was shocking. I remember when Jay called me from the hospital and said, guess who reached out? I was like, wow, that, you know, Ken went up a notch in my book. Not Tyra. And that message that he references that he got a message from her that came only recently, and she spends. She's in New York all the time. So the fact that a couple of years even went by, I mean, he was in the hospital a year and a half and just zero. That's really disappointing. It was hurtful. I felt Jay's pain. I hurt for him, truly.
- [74:21]
Nick
You know her as well as anyone, you know.
- [74:24]
Jay Manuel
Oh, why do you think she does this?
- [74:26]
Nick
Yeah, like, why? It just. It's just we can all be stubborn. It's just this. To your point, it just seems, like, really hard to comprehend the lack of, I guess, humanity and her behavior, you.
- [74:39]
Jay Manuel
Know, and that's the right word. To be honest with you, we. Outside of all of the craziness and television and the egos, everything put aside, you know, we can be human with one another and express our humanness. Really, that's the part that I think is most shocking. You know, when it comes to me, I've let it go. I don't think I would ever get a call from her, but. And that's fine. That's fine. I'm fine with it, truly. I never want to ever put a label on people, and a lot of people know that. I'm friends with Dr. Ramani, who speaks about, you know, narcissistic abuse, et cetera. And I know a lot of people are throwing that word around. I would never do that. I'm not a Licensed psychologist. But what I do know is that Tyra operates from an extreme level of pain. What no one's really calling out is there's a famous. She would go on the Oprah show, and I was with her at the time, where she would go on the Oprah show and do these, you know, different themed episodes, sometimes makeovers, but they've talked about some heavier topics. She did a show on bullying, and she said her brother used to bully her, and her brother Devin was sitting right there with her, and her mother was in the audience. No one's pulling up the clip, but she talks about how her brother bullied her, and ultimately she went into high school and became a bully herself. It comes. It's her own words. And a lot of that behavior comes from a place of pain. I know Tyra holds a lot of pain. That's why I honestly connected with her, because who I am, I always feel like I have to try, you know, support people around their things, their issues. All my friends know that. I. But I've ultimately realized as an adult, that's not my job. I so to do that. But I connected with her on that place, and I really do think if she shares truly what she struggles with, people would understand her more. But all she does is lock it away in a vault.
- [76:40]
Natalie Joy
That makes sense.
- [76:42]
Nick
I mean, you're so generous with your time, Jay. I really appreciate it. I'm curious for you, like, just try to make it more positive as a show. Obviously, so much of this documentary is coming of poking holes in how this show was made. But what positive things do you think America's tech Next top model did for fashion, for the industry of modeling as a whole? And did we learn some at least good lessons of what not to do going forward?
- [77:13]
Jay Manuel
There is a lot of good that came out of America's Next Top Model. And again, Tyra stepped into that with the best of attention. She wanted to find the next top model, but she really wanted to show the behind the scenes of the industry, of which she really was in the trenches. And the behavior and how she was treated as a model would shock people and the industry at that time. You know, a lot of people, you know, got to know me from being on that show. That's a positive. That's why everything about this show for me ultimately allowed me to kind of grow in other directions. But I had a whole career in the industry well before the show came about. Like, I worked with all of the greats from, you know, Richard Apple Abaddon to Annie Leibovitz. Scavullo, shooting for Vogue and major ad campaigns. It was an amazing opportunity to kind of bring that experience to a show and start talking about what it is like from behind the scenes. And the industry has changed. The industry cannot get away with the behavior that it was historically known for. And the way they would treat girls coming in with their portfolio, flipping through, picking them apart, yet Not. No, just. Just that kind of insensitivity doesn't exist on that level anymore. And that's mostly because, you know, everyone has one of these. They got one of these. Everything is recorded and out there. And Top Model really opened up this dialogue of what was being said to these girls. And not just the models, but hair, makeup, anyone who's a part of the industry was. Was. Was experiencing that culture. So it is. It has shifted quite a bit.
- [78:49]
Susie
How was it for you watching the photo shoot with Kenya back where she spoke up about, hey, this guy's making.
- [78:56]
Jay Manuel
Me uncomfortable, you know, watching it play in the doc, I think it was so important to have Kenya sit there and express how she felt through that. I love that she was part of the doc. I remember that day, and I even remember watching the episode for the first time. I didn't know what was going on in hair and makeup, first of all, that he was hitting on her because I was setting up a shoot and then shooting with the other girls, so I didn't know what was going on. And again, in shooting the other girls, they did the exact same shoot. These three guys danced around them. They were touching the girls and dancing. And, you know, I had shot many shoots, even with Tyra, that were very sexy and. Or kind of creating a very intimate situation. So I'm thinking, you know, we're just creating this illusion. However, when Kenya stopped the photo shoot, my response, which I stand up to a dresser, I'm like, what's going on? I wish I could have drawn a better boundary. And with production, meaning the production of Top Model, covering this, because that was ultimately my job there, to create a safe space for her, and I should have understood a little more of what was going on. However, at that time, I always felt this allegiance to production. They were constantly poking in my ear, like, I couldn't just love girls on set. I had to have a negative. If I love someone's performance, they literally forced me to say something negative or that they had to work on. And so I was looking around, like, you can even see it in the episode. I'm looking around, like, at the. Because there's a director on Set. I'm like, do I let this happen? Do I stop it? Like, what do I do? I was equally confused in the moment because I couldn't see anything that seemed untoward. However, I should have taken her at her word and I should have drawn that line with production. And then if production or the powers that be, Ken and Tyra had gotten upset with me for stopping and breaking the fourth wall of the reality show, I should have taken my lashes. Because ultimately the most important person was Keena in that moment and her comfortability. And yes, I wish I could have drawn that line.
- [81:08]
Nick
Thank you for saying that. Thank you for saying that and. And acknowledging that, which is like, I think watching this doc, what I think a lot of the fans who are watching it through this lens are just kind of hoping. And so it's been really great to hear you.
- [81:23]
Susie
And you also were vocal about feeling very uncomfortable with the race swap photo shoot, but ultimately still did it. What were those conversations kind of backstage, behind the scenes that you had had with production about that?
- [81:40]
Jay Manuel
So up until cycle four, literally, the photo shoot creative, it was me and Tyra having a private conversation, usually lying around in my house. And I would say, okay, what shoot have you done? Because we wanted it rooted in something she has done. And that's what we did in those early cycles by the time we go to cycle season four, because in cycle three, CoverGirl came on board and that was myself and our co EP pitching that to bring them on as one of the sponsors. So now the stakes were higher in cycle four. So the photo shoot creative was a meeting with a group of people. Ken, Tyra, myself, the co eps, the line producer, two line producers. And we sat there and we talked through the creative. So the first time I heard about this race swapping photo shoot was in a meeting. And Tyra brought it up and she explained why she wanted to do it. And it was for the empowering for women of color. I'll be honest with you. Ken Mock's reaction initially was like, oh, my God, do you want to go there? He was equally as shocked, but only he could really speak to her about it. Now, as much as she valued my opinion, I wouldn't dare put her on the spot in a work environment. But walking out of that meeting, I immediately pulled my co EP at the time, Anthony Dominici, and I said to him, there is no way I can do this shoot. Can you please go to Ken and Tyra separately and say we're going to write in a storyline where I'm not there because As I mentioned in the doc, and I'm glad it made there, a lot of people assume by my last name I'm Spanish, but I'm actually biracial. My parents are from South Africa. My extended family is in South Africa, and my parents grew up under apartheid. And I just like the thought of that we are going to switch races and paint white models to look black. I just could not comprehend how I could stand there and deliver this. And I thought if there was a shoot Tyra could show up on and stand next to me and deliver that creative with, it would be that. But she said no. Then I had. There was another meeting. It was Ken, Tyra, Anthony Dominici, and myself. And Tyra swore up and down she was Jay, you will not wear this. I will clearly state in judging that that this was my idea and why I am doing this, but you have to go to work. Was not a choice. You have to show up and you have to do your job. I thought about calling in sick that day, just so you know, but there were no sick days on Top Model, and I knew I would get in a lot of trouble. So I went and I was extremely uncomfortable. But what. What reporters cut out is if you end that photo shoot right after the photo shoot, it goes right into judging. Tyra opens the judging clearly stating, this was my idea. I wanted to do this for the empowerment of women of color and da, da, da, da, da, da. But every journalist, every clip that gets run everywhere doesn't include Tyra's explanation, which is six minutes later, roughly. But I'm the one standing there delivering that creative. So it's just followed me. I've had people write me, you know, you're disgusting. You wanted to, you know, you know, paint went in black and blah, blah, blah. But no one knows the real story. They don't know what I went through. And kind of that hell I went through, man.
- [85:08]
Susie
A lot of last question, and then we can let you go. A lot of people, good, I'm out of here.
- [85:17]
Jay Manuel
We can keep talking.
- [85:19]
Natalie Joy
Okay, good.
- [85:19]
Nick
I do have a couple more, but on the lighter side, on the letters.
- [85:22]
Carl
Okay.
- [85:24]
Susie
A lot of people obviously are seeing Tyra not take this accountability kind of say, like, oh, I wasn't in charge there. You know, I'm not the head of creative there. And then when the credits roll, it's executive producer Tyra Banks, you know, and it's like, clearly you do have a lot of control. Why not just say that?
- [85:45]
Jay Manuel
Well, my response actually is the receipts are in the doc and all the Kids online, which I am surprised are had clipped it together appropriately. They're doing their own investigative journalism, which I love. You know, in the doc we see Tyra on her talk show forcing Shandy to watch this clip that she says she does not want to watch. And we're talking about sexual assault ultimately, and she's forcing her to watch it. That in itself is a whole other show, but. And then she brings Shandy back a second time to watch it. And so I, I believe in the documentary they show both clips of Tyra's talk show. If not, the kids online have put all the clips together where Tyra specifically says in her own words on her own talk show. I've watched this a thousand times. I was in the editing room editing this scene, blah, blah, blah. Her own words have incriminated her. And everyone can see it. So I don't have to say it, I don't have to confirm it. Her own words ultimately confirms because I was there. She was involved heavily with the edits with Ken. And so much so that that episode, Tyra was in New York. And at that time, you know, you know, they would send physical screeners. Tyra was at my home. No one knows this, by the way. Cause no one's asked me this. So you guys are getting the scoop. I actually screened that episode with Shandy, with Tyra for the first time of the Locked episode that was going to air. We watched it and she approved it and it was locked. Then the super bowl happened that weekend with Janet Jackson and Justin Timberlake. And immediately there was a clampdown. Cause that was also on CBS and that's our parent company. And they were like, we're changing immediately. We're clamping down. And they forced Ken and Tyra to re edit the episode. And that's what people don't know. What was originally cut for that episode was. And so what you guys actually saw was the re edited version. But again, Tyra's own words on her own talk show. I've watched it a thousand times. I was in the room editing that scene. You can hear the words come from her mouth. And everyone is playing that clip now. And it's unfortunate then that Tyra probably forgot she said this on her talk show.
- [88:10]
Nick
Yeah.
- [88:11]
Jay Manuel
And so, you know, she's sitting there and even when she starts off like, Shandy.
- [88:17]
Susie
Hmm, Shandy.
- [88:18]
Jay Manuel
I, um. Yeah, like that she knows exactly who.
- [88:22]
Susie
Yeah, I was gonna. When they asked, they were like, can we talk about the Shandy story? And she was like, they're like, do you Remember? And she's like, I think so.
- [88:30]
Ashley
It's like.
- [88:31]
Susie
It's just so heartbreaking.
- [88:33]
Ashley
Yeah.
- [88:35]
Nick
One more question about Tyra. And then recently, I don't know if it was after or right before the doc came out, Tyra announced that America's Next Top Model is coming back. Or maybe it's already in production. Do you know that to be true?
- [88:49]
Jay Manuel
Well, I know that Tyra loves to speak things into existence. She did it with America's Next Top Model Cycle 1. My understanding is how the press started that story the week before the doc came out because the press were able to screen the entire episode for the interviews that we were all doing. Sorry, the entire documentary. So obviously Tyrus says it in the doc. So that kind of line of Tyra's bringing back 25 ran a few days before from the doc. It wasn't a confirmation, is my understanding what I do know for a fact, because I know who she met with. I'll say that she's trying to pitch it right now, as in the last few weeks she thought, oh, on the heels of Netflix and I'll pitch it and someone will. But is it in production? Oh, absolutely not. That's not in production.
- [89:42]
Susie
Would you participate in the show if it were to come back?
- [89:47]
Jay Manuel
What do you think? I love saying that to you.
- [89:49]
Ashley
I know you do.
- [89:53]
Jay Manuel
First of all, I will be honest with you. I think I would be the absolute last phone call that they would ever if they were in charge of the show. I know Nigel feels that strongly that the only way they could do it is if the three of us were there. You know, I even as a producer myself, cause I've produced on other things and I was a producer initially on this show. The only way I would be able to come back from even just a production standpoint is I would have to fairly produce my shoots if I went back in the same role and actually, you know, hand forward, you know, the girls best shots and let them duke it out in that regard, you know, in a fair way. I mean, even after I had gone back after that cycle nine and I wasn't producing anymore, you know, I had to still select 25 photos for Tyra to look at. And then Tyra just wanted to look at all of the film now because I'm there, I see it all. So the girls, they suspected the worst, you know, bad photos were being selected for them. I can confirm that. Absolutely. They were doing it for storyline in those later seasons. They would pick horrible photos and the girls had better photos in their film for sure.
- [91:05]
Nick
Sure.
- [91:06]
Jay Manuel
For sure.
- [91:07]
Susie
There is, I guess, another documentary coming out on E. Hulu. I know Lisa is involved in it. I don't remember exactly what cycle she's on. What do you. I mean, what do you think of. Of that?
- [91:21]
Jay Manuel
I don't know anything about it at all. My understanding is it's like a one hour piece, part of a series. Lisa has really struggled with a lot of the, again, the blowback from fans and what people have said to her face in the streets, which is horrible. And I do believe, and there are other girls involved in this, people should have their voices heard. I just always encourage people to kind of speak their truth and not tear down because truth leads and that's what rises up. And even within my interviews and even sitting and talking with you guys, I don't believe Tyra should be vilified. I think we should have a conversation. And this, this is not an opportunity to tear down anyone. I just hope that because their stories are so valid, I just hope that that documentary handles their stories with care and doesn't turn it into something salacious and tear down ish because ultimately they won't wear that well, you know?
- [92:22]
Nick
Yeah. I guess what you and Nigel and Ms. J brought to this documentary was just, I guess, Grace in a way to say, you know, yes, we were involved in this. Yes, there were moments that are regretful. There's probably a lot of explanations of, of why some of this went, why this happened. You know, so many decision makers. But, you know, I think people went in a lot of its fans wanting to, like, feel good about it, you know, and wanting to feel good about you guys, because I think so many fans truly loved all, all of you who made this show. And I think that's where the frustration comes with Tyra, where it's like, really, you know, like, you know, it's like that's. That's what you gave. Because I. I don't think a lot of people went in wanting to like, chastise any of you and even Tyra, and I think they were just hoping for, you know, a little humanity and a little grace on her part.
- [93:18]
Jay Manuel
Yeah. And it really is unfortunate because again, like I said, I think if Tyra had brought the vulnerable woman that I know and that I've had those conversations with, there is that beautiful person inside underneath all of that pain. I can tell you that. Trust me. I just wish she'd shared it with everybody.
- [93:39]
Monique Samuels
Yeah, you.
- [93:40]
Natalie Joy
You guys kind of covered it, but I was just kind of thinking it's really interesting how we we watched the show like I watched it growing up, Huge fan, and you don't really realize how it impacts you. And then obviously people started re watching it in 2020. I'm curious. When the rewatch started happening, people were judging it through a 2020 lens, totally different, which obviously half the things that happen wouldn't fly today or in 2020 when it was resurfacing. Did you have this gut feeling of, like, oh, my gosh, we have to do something to set the record straight? Not even set the record straight, but to acknowledge that we realize what we've done or, like, we see where we. We should have done something different. And were you excited for the opportunity to. To have this Netflix doc, to kind of set the record straight and. And have your voice heard? Because even in talking to you here and hearing you on the documentary, it's like, oh, wow. There's so much more context to your experience. And it's. I think a lot of people are, like, myself included. I feel like you're still being so kind towards Tyra, who, it feels like, hasn't really taken the accountability. And it feels like in a lot of ways, it seems like you have kind of ignored, acknowledged some wrongdoings, and it's really beautiful. Cause, yeah, watching it as a kid, I didn't even realize what I was watching half the time. Was probably not the best thing to be consuming.
- [94:55]
Jay Manuel
Well, in 2020. You know what? Again, people learned in May of 2020, which it was not planned at all. I had been writing my novel, which was inspired by my life behind the scenes of, you know, America's Next Top Model. My novel takes place behind the scenes of a fictitious modeling competition called Model Muse with a host, Keisha Cash. And so I had been working on this novel for quite some time. I did not have a ghost writer. I wrote it myself and had a great writing mentor that helped me polish in every draft. But ultimately, my book was slated to be published in 2020. Well before the pandemic hit. We didn't know. And then the pandemic hit, and, you know, people were rewatching Model, and my publishers were like, we're still going to release it this summer. And so we went, and Variety actually had the exclusive to announce my book in May, and Elizabeth Wagmeister did an interview with me, and they released it with the COVID of my book. And that article went like wildfire around the world. Cause everyone was locked in their home. They saw this and they're like, oh, my gosh. And they're thinking, this well, they're like, they were comparing it to Devil Wears Prada and blah, blah, blah. And this is a behind the scenes and it's a novel, but is there truth in it? And so ultimately that happened. And then I felt, okay, people are watching the show again. I do need to do something. So we were all in our homes, and I started doing these lives, which we called J's Chat, which I started off with Ms. J and then ultimately started doing it with different girls from the cycles or winners every week. I did one a week. I did a season every week. So I did 18 of these lives for 18 weeks straight. And I gave. That was the first time someone had actually given the girls a platform to speak. And then I believe it's Oliver Twixt. Cause he was a fan was watching. And I did a live with him. He took over once I stopped. He was like, I'm gonna do more of these and have the girls on my, you know, my. My. My live channel and do it on YouTube. And that's when giving the girls a platform to speak started. And it felt right at the time. So I was already in that space because my. My book. And by the way, there was a. There was an author who said this on Oprah's book club once. And I can't remember who said it first, but Oprah has herself has repeated this. It says, every novel is really a memoir. Every memoir is really a novel. If you want to learn the most about a person, read their novel.
- [97:32]
Natalie Joy
That's interesting.
- [97:32]
Jay Manuel
You know, how many times have you read a memoir and you're like, did it really happen that way? And then you read a novel which is fiction, and go, ooh, it feels like there's more truth on the page. Which truth does tend to bleed onto the page when you're writing a novel. Yeah.
- [97:46]
Ashley
Beautiful.
- [97:48]
Nick
Jay, just final question. If you had a message for the America's Next Top Model audience, what would be that message as. As they finish and watch this doc?
- [97:58]
Jay Manuel
My message for fans and for all of the girls who participated and hopefully at some point, a lot of these producers and directors who still work in the industry and are afraid to speak, My message would be to continue the dialogue, continue the conversation. I feel like I've said what I've needed to say, and I'm grateful for platforms like this to do interviews, but I feel that the real discussion needs to continue with everyone and use your voices and then continue the discussion.
- [98:35]
Nick
Jay, we really appreciate you taking the time. It's really been a pleasure to have this conversation with you. And thank you for being so gracious and just so open about your experiences.
- [98:45]
Jay Manuel
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
- [98:47]
Monique Samuels
Thank you.
- [98:47]
Nick
Thank you. Take care.
- [98:48]
Ashley
Bye.
- [98:49]
Nick
All right.
- [98:49]
Jay Manuel
Take care of.
- [98:49]
Susie
All right.
- [98:49]
Nick
Bye.
- [98:50]
Jay Manuel
Bye.
- [98:51]
Nick
Fascinating conversation. I mean, I. And he seems so sweet, and I really. So gracious.
- [98:57]
Natalie Joy
So gracious.
- [98:58]
Justin
Yeah.
- [98:58]
Nick
So honest.
- [98:59]
Justin
Yeah. I think it reminds you that just at the end of the day, obviously, a lot of things happen publicly, and people have strong opinions on that because it does affect, like, it affects people. Like America's Next Top Model affected people.
- [99:14]
Natalie Joy
Yeah.
- [99:15]
Justin
But at the same time, the people that did it are still people, right?
- [99:20]
Natalie Joy
Absolutely.
- [99:21]
Justin
And it's just, like, complicated and so.
- [99:23]
Susie
And also, like, what happened behind closed doors in privacy, you know, like, the things that weren't aired. Like, the conversation he had, you know, with the producers about the race swapping being like, hey, I don't want to be a part of this, and it's still.
- [99:38]
Natalie Joy
Right.
- [99:38]
Susie
And so, you know, so. And of course, like, no one saw that. So then everyone just tore him apart. And, like, he. He just sat silent for all these years.
- [99:46]
Ashley
Right.
- [99:46]
Susie
Like, taking all the heat, knowing that, like, he tried. He knew it was wrong. He tried to get out of it. He tried to use his voice, and the people above him shot him down.
- [99:55]
Jay Manuel
Yeah.
- [99:56]
Nick
Up next, we have Monique Samuel from Real Housewives of Potomac to help us unpack reunion part one. When you're in the level up mindset for your business, it's wild how much basic stuff matters, like customer service or just making sure you do not miss any calls when it comes to your customers. I mean, think about it. Anytime you've been looking for an electrician or plumber or any type of service and they didn't answer immediately, what did you do? You just moved on to the next. That was a missed opportunity for the first few people that you called, which is why today's episode is sponsored by Quo, spelled Q U o, the modern alternative to run your business communications. Quo is the number one rated business phone system on G2, with over 3,000 reviews built on how modern teams work. That's why more than 90,000 businesses, from sole operators to growing teams, rely on Quo to stay connected, professional, and consistently reachable. Quo works wherever you are, right from an app on your phone or computer and lets you keep your existing number, add new numbers or teammates in minutes, sync your CRM, and rely on seamless routing and call flows. As your business scales, your entire team can handle calls and texts from a one shared number. No more missed messages or disconnected conversations. Everyone sees full thread, making replies faster and customers feel genuinely cared for. Quo isn't just a phone system, it's a smart system. Quo's AI automatically logs calls, generates summaries, and highlights new next steps so nothing gets lost. It's easy. Text calls, voicemails, transcripts, and contact details all live in one clean view. If you are a team of one or team of many, let Quo help you take your business to the next level. Make this the year where no opportunities and no customers slip away. Try quo for free plus get 20 off your first 6 months when you go to quo.comv I A L L that is quo q u o.comv I A L LL' no missed calls, no missed customers. This podcast is supported by FX's Love Story, John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Bessette. The new limited series from executive producer Ryan Murphy. It explores the complex courtship of the iconic couple considered to be American royalty, whose love story captured the attention of the nation. Their fairy tale romance would unfold in front of the public eye, where their private love would also become a national obsession. FX's love story John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carrie Carolyn Bessette watch now on FX Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers. Monique, welcome to the show.
- [102:18]
Monique Samuels
Thanks for having me.
- [102:19]
Nick
So good to be with you. Very excited to have you. It's really been a joy seeing you back on our screen and it feels like, I mean, you kind of referenced it, but, you know, you seem like a breath of fresh air. You seem lighter. It feels like a whole new you. Is that how it feels to you?
- [102:35]
Monique Samuels
It does, it does. It's refreshing to be able to. Ever since I started reality tv, my concept was let me just be me and show all of me. And when you are trying to protect so many different people around you, it's hard to do that. So this time I'm like, look, I'm single. I'm like, I ain't got nobody to protect. I got nothing to worry about. I can just go on and be me and accept my truth, be who I am. And it's not been very refreshing. It's been nice.
- [103:05]
Nick
We certainly have a lot of questions about this season, but before we dive into that, I'm just curious from your perspective like this, reflecting back on just your overall journey on tv. Like, what's one thing that going in to reality TV that you were certain you believed or thought? And now as you stand here today, your perspective has completely changed.
- [103:26]
Monique Samuels
Oh my goodness. You are, I guess, going, I thought that if I can give the story that I want to be shown, that's what's going to be shown.
- [103:39]
Nick
That's a tough lesson to learn, huh?
- [103:40]
Monique Samuels
Oh, my God. And it's like, now it's just like, okay, well, whatever. I'm just going to be me. I learned that after the first season. After watching the first season, I was like, oh, okay, now I see why these questions were being asked. Now I see why. Like, you know, it was so just like, oh, I get it now. But even with knowing that, you have to be able to really know yourself and accept yourself and be okay with all of the things that are going on in your surroundings, if you're doing reality tv, like, you can't have any.
- [104:14]
Nick
Any.
- [104:14]
Monique Samuels
You. You can't be defensive. You can't, you know, keep certain dynamics hidden because it's like, production, and this network has been doing this for a very long, long time. The air that you are defensive, they're like, oh, let's go deeper.
- [104:30]
Susie
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you expect to come in this season and have your ex husband be such a topic of conversation?
- [104:38]
Monique Samuels
No, I really thought that it was going to be about me just talking about my book, my journey, and also just, like, seeing where the other ladies stand. The only person I've really been talking to is Ashley.
- [104:51]
Natalie Joy
Ashley.
- [104:52]
Monique Samuels
You know, so it was like filling everybody out, meeting the new women, seeing what's going on. I had no idea that that was going to be the thing. And I was just like, it put me in an uncomfortable position because I didn't want to talk about him. But apparently he's been around these ladies, and he's been all up in the mix, even when I haven't been. And I'm like, this is like, not what I thought.
- [105:21]
Nick
I forgot what you said specific. Specifically. I think it was to Stacy because she was the one who dated him. But I really respected how you did it because you towed a very fine line. And you were basically like, listen, there's a reason why I left. I don't want to get into more.
- [105:38]
Monique Samuels
Right.
- [105:38]
Nick
But kind of like, watch yourself. And I. It was like, perfectly. You really found that kind of gap of, like, not sounding resentful or bitter, but, like, you. You sounded like a true friend. And I'm just curious. That must have been, you know, like, separation's hard, Divorce is hard. Winning is, like, something we always want to feel when we leave these relationships.
- [106:01]
Monique Samuels
Yeah.
- [106:01]
Nick
Did you have to get to a place to be able to answer or. Or say something like that in such a emotionally, like, mature way? You know, Because I feel like that would be difficult for a lot of us.
- [106:14]
Monique Samuels
Yeah. So the interesting thing about going through a divorce is that you really get to see who you were married to. A lot of times you don't get to see who you were married to while you're in the marriage, because either you have this mask, they have a mask, you have this illusion you want to maintain. And anything that goes against that illusion, you. You just, you know, you strike it down, you don't pay attention to it. But once you're out of the marriage, there's no need. Need to have to exist together anymore. So then that's when the mask comes all the way off, and then you're like, whoa, that's what I was married to all this time. So my warning to Stacy in that moment was, you know, I don't know what's going on with y', all, nor do I care, but my main concern is, like, my life is my life, and I want it to stay that way. The details of my life is none of his business anymore. And if y' all are cordial, friendly, whatever, that's fine. But I just want to make sure that when I'm having conversations with you and the group, that they remain our conversations. And I also told her, just watch who you're talking to and who you are being cool with, because when that mask comes off, it's a whole different story.
- [107:30]
Nick
Yeah. Well said. So you are on part two of the reunion. Did you watch part one?
- [107:36]
Monique Samuels
I didn't. I haven't had time. Me and my daughter have been having one on one time the past few days, and I tell you, it's been so nice to just disconnect.
- [107:45]
Susie
Yeah.
- [107:45]
Jay Manuel
So.
- [107:46]
Monique Samuels
Yeah, so I haven't. I haven't watched it yet. I'm going to watch probably tonight.
- [107:49]
Nick
No. No worries at all. Well, I think you can still speak on this, but no worries if you can't. But Nellie and I were watching it, and it was, I guess, you know, I'm not a lawyer, but I was a little surprised just how. How available Wendy is to talk about her court case and. And her legal problems. Because, you know, you always hear that whatever you say can be held against you in a court of law. Right. Yeah, I. I don't know. I'm just curious. How have you ladies, knowing Wendy as well as you do, just kind of processed this whole situation? Because certainly it affects the group.
- [108:24]
Monique Samuels
I honestly feel like she's been handling it rather well just because she hasn't really spoken much about it the most. I've heard her talk about it was at the. The reunion. And a lot of what's happening is what we're hearing the prosecution put out okay there. It's almost like they're trying to paint her as guilty without her even being able to tell her side. And there's always another side to the story, right? So I just feel like, based on what she knows and believes has happened versus what they're putting out to make it so salacious and so, like, you know, over dramatizing everything, you know, even from the press conference that they had, I think she's doing a good job. I do. I do not feel as though it's up to us to judge what really happened. I mean, we got to really just sit out and watch everything play out. And that's been. My mindset, is I just want to be supportive for her, because guilty or not, it's stressful, which she's going, you know, So I remember when. When Candace pressed charges against me and I had to hire an attorney, and I knew what happened. I knew exactly all the details of the fight. I knew how it happened, how it escalated. But it was still stressful. Having to go through that process, having to hire an attorney, having to show up at court, it was so stressful, and I knew that it was going to get. The charges would be dropped regardless. But even going through it, the amount of stress, just navigating that, you know, so I feel like she's doing the best that she can, and she's also trying to give some of the information without sounding like she's trying to testify in the court of the public and too many details out, you know, before this even sees a courtroom. Him, you know.
- [110:18]
Nick
Yeah, for sure. Well, I appreciate your perspective on that. What are your thoughts on Angel? Obviously, both. Both of you ladies, She's a wag. You've been a wag. I'm curious, do you feel like you were trying to connect with her and then she just kind of shut you down or. And. And how do you just kind of overall feel about Angel's time this season?
- [110:36]
Monique Samuels
You know, when I first met angel and I was sharing a lot of my experience, when we were at the lunch after Pride, she was the one that came up to me after I was done talking, saying, like, oh, my God, we have so much in common. I would really love to talk to you so I can navigate this whole situation better. And even I spoke about just NFL players in general and how there's this image that they have to uphold, you know, as a player that's just like a common thing in NFL and she could relate to that. So I didn't know to what degree she could relate to relate to it, but that was the conversation. We didn't have much conversation after that. I didn't see her again until the sip and read. And that's when I started hearing more about, you know, how her husband didn't want, want to come to the event and he kind of snapped at the ladies and there, there was this whole behind the scenes thing that happened with production and her and him and going off on production. It was just like a mess. So as I'm hearing all of this, I'm being reminded of some of the things I, I dealt with, but most importantly, I was looking at her as a woman and I'm just like, hey, outside of everything else, I feel like you are doing a lot and you're doing a lot on your own and if you're in need of help, don't be afraid to ask. You know, I've been in that position and I didn't have anyone approach me without judgment. I felt like it was like always judgment or always trying to like pick me apart versus somebody just coming with pure concern and saying, saying, hey, you seem a little tapped out and I know you have a lot going on, but you shouldn't be doing all of this by yourself. And that's simply what I was trying to do was come to her in a place of like, love and concern and I don't want to see you go down the road I went down. So it wasn't necessarily like me trying to come for her marriage, like all of that nonsense. That's not even who I am. I've never been that person to just be coming for somebody without cause. I genuinely just wanted to make sure she was good, you know, So I, I feel like just like any newbie, you know, she had a first season where the women are going to make comments, they're going to joke, they're going to try to trigger you. I went through it too, you know, like the first time I met Giselle, she's like, oh, you don't have a home, like. But yeah, it's like you can't take all of these comments to heart and so angry about every little thing that's said, you know, it's like, this is housewives, you know, this is a part of the recipe for making a very entertaining show, you know, So I just feel like she was taking a lot to heart and, and that made it even harder for her you know, so the women are going to keep going at you. If you show that, you know, you're being triggered.
- [113:24]
Susie
Who are you happiest to reconnect with this season?
- [113:27]
Monique Samuels
I feel like Wendy. I mean obviously Ashley because we been connected but out of everybody, I've been really happy to reconnect with Wendy because when her and I met, we hit it off like right from the start we had so much in common and we were just like, it was just like sister girl, you know. But then that season everything went left and then her and I never really were able to continue to develop that friendship. So to go back into it, to feel the warm welcome, so to speak, and for us to sit down and then find that same chemistry again and kind of pick up where we left, left off. It was really nice. Like I really enjoyed sitting with her and talking with her and still continuing like getting together with her even, you know, while we're not filming has been nice as well.
- [114:11]
Nick
Has it been nice to see the Grandam back on part of the group?
- [114:16]
Monique Samuels
Yes. So at the reunion I did get to see her. We haven't been able to connect just yet but, but I was very happy to see her, to see that, that final episode of her opening up and being so vulnerable. Vulnerable. I think people, I know some people have whatever they want to say about the sit down but what people need to remember is this is Karen who we're talking about. Karen has put up walls. She has not been as vulnerable as some of the other ladies. You know, she's been alone on the island. She doesn't mind fighting and snapping back at you and getting you together. But for her to sit down and to show that level of vulnerability for her, her is huge. And I was very proud of her.
- [114:58]
Nick
Yeah, yeah, I, I mean the critics will critic but I, I, I enjoyed that sit down and it, it, to your point, it felt like we, it was the most we've gotten to see of that side of Karen, I feel like. And yeah, maybe this is the beginning of her growth. But yeah, I mean it's like a lot of people wanted to see like a final product and it's like she, she literally just got out.
- [115:20]
Monique Samuels
Yeah, right, right. I'm like she's still going through her healing, her journey and you know, I think people just want so much when they see people on tv they want more and more and more and it's like just pause and just like let's just sit with this right now and enjoy it.
- [115:38]
Nick
You know, I can't keep track of what's real news in Bravo world or what's a rumor? So maybe I'm wrong, but I. Is. Is. Was it been reported that angel is not coming back next season? Is that that accurate?
- [115:49]
Monique Samuels
Honestly, I've not been on social hard. I'm not the one for the tea.
- [115:55]
Nick
Justin and debut Confirmed.
- [115:58]
Carl
I don't believe anything Confirmed. I think people are just rumors thinking after the season finale that it doesn't make sense.
- [116:04]
Nick
What is your gut tell you, Monique? Whether angel will decide to return or do you think she has what it takes to continue her journey as a housewife?
- [116:13]
Monique Samuels
I think she does. And I think she should come back. I think that. I mean, she just announced that she bought a house in Potomac, so I mean, she has the ingredients for being a housewife of Potomac. More so than some of the ladies.
- [116:28]
Nick
More so than who?
- [116:29]
Monique Samuels
I mean, she's married. She's a housewife. You know what I'm saying? She lives in Potomac, so there's a lot of people.
- [116:37]
Nick
It's giving Ashley Darby shade.
- [116:40]
Ashley
No, no.
- [116:42]
Monique Samuels
Everybody on the show who's not married and live in Potomac Shade. Hey, including me.
- [116:49]
Ashley
I don't let him sonic anymore.
- [116:50]
Nick
Oh, there we go.
- [116:52]
Monique Samuels
Hey, it is what it is.
- [116:53]
Susie
Are you in the camp of Stacy is a little bit or a lot of bit of a fibber.
- [117:01]
Monique Samuels
I with Stacy, I. I don't necessarily think that she lies about everything. I think that she doesn't defend every lie that they're accusing her of. And that's what makes her come off as, oh, you're all always lying. Because Stacy don't care. She doesn't care about defending herself. If you come at her with anything, she's just looking at you like, okay, like, you know, so. But I think that's why she's such good reality TV gold too, because she doesn't take to heart everything. Like, if you look at her and then look at angel, they're complete opposites of each other, saying, like, angel gets defensive. Stacy just lets it run off her shoulder like she does. She doesn't care. So I think because she's not coming with such conviction and emotion, they think like, oh, she must be lying, you know, makes sense. Is she forthcoming with everything? I don't think she's forthcoming with everything, but I don't also. I also don't think that she's lying about everything either, you know?
- [118:02]
Susie
Yeah.
- [118:02]
Nick
So what can we expect from you on part two of the reunion?
- [118:06]
Monique Samuels
So it's gonna be interesting.
- [118:11]
Jay Manuel
It's gonna be good.
- [118:13]
Justin
Yes.
- [118:14]
Monique Samuels
It's going to be Good. I have used a little bit of technology versus a binder this time, and I didn't have to come with a whole bookload of receipts. I just came with one that was very impactful and it gagged everybody, and the audience will be gagged as well.
- [118:32]
Nick
Is there any air you hope to clear up either with the fans or your castmates going into next season?
- [118:41]
Monique Samuels
I don't think so. Did I do anything?
- [118:43]
Nick
No, I was, you know, never know. Yeah. No, you had a very. You were very charming this season.
- [118:49]
Monique Samuels
Yeah, it was like they. They let me. They let me live my life this season.
- [118:53]
Nick
To that end, are you kind of comfortable with the role that you're playing with this group, or are you hopeful that we might get a chance to see more of you and, and maybe solidify your. Your spot as a housewife in future seasons?
- [119:10]
Monique Samuels
I'm not sure I. I really enjoyed the friendship role. It was very easy. It was flexible, especially for where I am in life with my children and co parenting and everything. So that was really nice. And it was also nice to just kind of like, put my pinky toe in the pool and just see what's going on. I'm open and, you know, I'm open to discussion and we'll see what works.
- [119:32]
Nick
Okay.
- [119:32]
Monique Samuels
Whatever works without me feeling like it's too much, you know?
- [119:36]
Nick
Have you had any conversations with your ex? Just. Just about how much he was talked about in this season?
- [119:42]
Monique Samuels
He wouldn't talk to me about that. We do not talk. We ain't on that at all.
- [119:50]
Nick
And then one final question. Are you watching Traders?
- [119:54]
Monique Samuels
I haven't watched Traders in a couple seasons. I think, you know what, I watched Traders when Phaedra was on.
- [120:00]
Nick
Okay.
- [120:01]
Monique Samuels
And I just, I can't. I don't feel like anybody can compare to what she did. And yeah, I haven't watched recently.
- [120:08]
Carl
I'm curious, have you seen, like, the commentary online about Candace being a trader and whether you think from what you've seen on Traders, do you think she would make a good trader?
- [120:17]
Monique Samuels
I think she would be an excellent trader.
- [120:20]
Nick
Okay.
- [120:21]
Monique Samuels
I think that line with her. Haven't seen what people have been saying. I haven't been keeping up at all. Like, when I, I tell you, I'm like, if I'm on Instagram or social media, it's just to post some stories and hop off.
- [120:34]
Ashley
I love it.
- [120:35]
Nick
Monique, you are an absolute delight. We really appreciate you taking the time. We hope to see more of you and you really just seem like a good one. So I really appreciate you taking the time and it's been really fun chatting with you.
- [120:47]
Monique Samuels
Thank you so much. I appreciate y' all as well.
- [120:49]
Carl
All right.
- [120:50]
Ashley
Take care, Monique.
- [120:51]
Monique Samuels
All right, you too.
- [120:52]
Justin
Thank you.
- [120:53]
Susie
Well, thank you to all of our guests. Monique Samuels, Ashley from Love is Blind, and Jay Manuel.
- [120:58]
Nick
We appreciate you all listening. And we will be back next week.
- [121:12]
Ashley
We're lost. I'm gonna pull over and ask that man for directions.
- [121:17]
Justin
Hi there.
- [121:17]
Ashley
We're looking to get to the campground.
- [121:19]
Nick
Well, you're gonna take a left at the old oak tree end of this here road.
- [121:23]
Jay Manuel
No, I'm just kidding.
- [121:24]
Nick
Let me get my phone out.
- [121:25]
Ashley
How are you getting a signal out here?
- [121:26]
Nick
T Mobile and US Cellular decided to merge.
- [121:29]
Jay Manuel
So the network out here is huge. We're getting the same great signal as the city and saving a boatload with all the benefits. Oh, and a five year price guarantee.
- [121:36]
Nick
Okay, here's those directions.
- [121:38]
Ashley
Actually, can you point us in the direction of a T Mobile store?
- [121:41]
Nick
America's best network just got bigger. Switch to T Mobile today and get built in benefits the other guys leave out. Plus our five year price guarantee. And now T Mobile is available in US Cellular stores. Best mobile network based on analysis by Oogle of Speed test intelligence data 2H 2025. Bigger network. The combination of T Mobile's and US Cellular's network footprints will enhance the T Mobile network's coverage price guarantee on talk text and data exclusions like taxes and fees apply. See t mobile.com for details.