E1003 Ask Nick - Cheating in an Open Relationship

Summary

The Viall Files, E1003: "Ask Nick - Cheating in an Open Relationship"

Date: September 22, 2025
Host: Nick Viall
Guests: Callers: Catherine, Jessica, Kelly

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Overview

In this episode of "Ask Nick," Nick Viall, with frequent interjections from Natalie Joy and other members of "the Household," tackles three listener relationship dilemmas:

1. Repairing and setting boundaries with an emotionally abusive mother
2. Navigating a painful broken engagement over a contentious prenup negotiation
3. Supporting a pregnant friend in a polyamorous marriage with boundary and trust issues

Nick delivers tough love, empathy, and solid advice, especially focusing on self-esteem, boundaries, and communication. The overarching themes are about claiming your power in relationships, learning to set and enforce boundaries, and supporting others without overstepping.

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Call 1: Catherine – Setting Boundaries with an Emotionally Abusive Mother

Starts: [03:14]

Background

• Catherine (31) is a stay-at-home mom with two young children and a supportive husband.
• She struggles with doubts about her parenting, stemming from a lifetime of emotional abuse and belittlement by her mother.
• Relationship with her mother improved during pregnancy but broke down after a visit to her mother’s home.
• Catherine’s mother has a pattern of bullying, invalidation, and damaging statements (e.g., “I love you, but I don’t like you”).
• Catherine seeks advice on moving forward, letting go of guilt, and whether to continue reaching out.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Validation of Parenting:
  Nick reassures Catherine her doubts about being a good mother actually reflect her commitment.
  Nick: “The fact that you have speaks volumes about your capabilities as a mother and your intentions to be a mother.” [13:57]

• Emotional Damage & Boundaries:
  Nick bluntly labels her mother a bully who will only respond to clear boundaries, not apologies or attempts to please.
  Nick: “There’s only one way to deal with bullies, and that is to stand up to them.” [09:48]

• Power Dynamics:
  Nick urges Catherine to recognize she now has the power and agency to set terms for the relationship.
  Nick: “You have all the power in this situation. And so far you are acting as if your mom still has all the power.” [29:20]

• Prioritizing Relationships:
  Higher priority should be given to Catherine’s husband and children, not to appeasing her mother.
  “Your in-laws and your mom…they don’t really matter when it comes to your children’s life...because they have you.” [32:23]

• Concrete Advice:

  • Stop seeking validation from her mother.
  • Invest energy in brother and nuclear family.
  • Use letters/journaling for self-affirmation instead of seeking reconciliation.
  • Allow her husband to be an ally and enforce boundaries as a team.
  • Cut or strictly limit contact with the mother if boundaries are repeatedly violated.

Notable Moments

• On Apologizing to Bullies:
  Nick: “Your mom doesn't see an apology as ownership...she just sees an apology as weakness.” [19:08]
• Parental Priorities:
  Nick: “Your family...is your husband and your kids. And everyone else is just lucky to have a seat at the table that they're not entitled to.” [44:23]
• Self-Affirmation:
  Nick: “Stop writing letters to mom like you write a letter to yourself.” [33:25]

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Call 2: Jessica – Breaking off an Engagement over a Prenup

Starts: [47:36]

Background

• Jessica (32) broke off an engagement because she and her fiancé couldn’t agree on a prenup.
• The fiancé, a dentist, wanted to protect current and future earnings/assets, and had strong notions about marriage partnership (including expecting Jessica to be a stay-at-home mother).
• Both hired lawyers; negotiations broke down over fairness, spousal support, childcare, and fears of financial vulnerability.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Reality of Marriage and Prenups:

  • Nick demystifies prenups: "Everyone who gets married has a prenup, it’s just whatever the state says if you don’t do one yourself." [54:40]
  • It's pragmatic (not unromantic) to want a prenup.

• Negotiation Breakdown:

  • The fiancé wanted to keep all current and future earnings separate, including investments/businesses acquired during the marriage.
  • Jessica was open to a prenup in principle but worried about giving up her career and financial security.
  • Attempts to compromise — e.g., being paid her salary to be a stay-at-home mom, shared childcare — failed.
  • Neither felt protected or fairly treated by the other's terms.

• Why Negotiations Failed:

  • Nick sees both parties as trying to "win" or protect themselves rather than each other.
  • Successful prenup negotiation requires mutual empathy: "You both should try to want to make...the prenup if you were the other person." [85:04]
  • Both sides ended up seeing what the other would be like in a divorce ("uncompromising and only worrying about themselves").
  • Lack of pre-negotiation affirmation (reminding each other of their partnership/love) made process transactional and adversarial.

• Moving Forward:

  • Jessica asks how couples successfully negotiate; Nick emphasizes communication, empathy, and willingness to compromise.
  • Calls for Jessica to assess her own role and not just blame the ex-fiancé.
  • Suggests a willingness to revisit the breakup, owning up to mistakes if so inclined.

Notable Quotes

• On State Laws & Prenups:
  Nick: "The idea that some people have out there, ‘I would never sign a prenup’ is delusional...you're literally signing a prenup the moment you sign a marriage license." [54:40]
• On Compromise:
  Nick: "No one should feel like they won. If one person's like, ‘whew, great,’ then that was not a very good starting point to a marriage." [76:59]
• On Blame and Learning:
  Nick: “If I'm you, this is the type of person who...this would be a moment to take my ego out of it, take my pride out of it, ask myself, ‘Did I do everything I could?’” [103:59]

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Call 3: Kelly – Supporting a Pregnant Polyamorous Friend with Boundary Issues

Starts: [115:58]

Background

• Kelly’s friend is pregnant in a polyamorous marriage, but the husband's repeated boundary-crossing and dishonesty (cheating even prior to opening the relationship, hiding relationships, manipulations) concern her.
• The friend is not the principal driver of polyamory, and while she does date others, she's struggled with her husband's disregard for boundaries.
• Kelly and other friends are worried about the support her friend will receive postpartum, fearing for the friend's wellbeing and emotional health.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• The Limits of Friendship:

  • Nick cautions that Kelly’s urge to intervene is understandable but can overstep, especially given much of her information comes secondhand via the “friend group gossip mill.”
  • Nick: "You can't save people who don't want to be saved, and you can't help people who aren't asking for your help." [132:21]

• Supporting vs. Judging:

  • Nick acknowledges it's hard to understand or avoid judging an unconventional relationship, but what matters is being available and validating, not policing.
  • Nick: "If someone's not being seen, you see them. It's not saying, ‘Hey, you should be with someone who sees you.’ She’s an adult...in therapy..." [126:41]
  • Don’t insert “what you’ve heard” — it’ll come across as gossipy or invasive.

• Concrete Advice:

  • Regularly check on her friend, offer emotional support, ask non-judgmentally about how she's doing and whether she's getting what she needs.
  • Avoid attempting to confront, rescue, or draw conclusions unless the friend actually reaches out for help or advice.
  • If/when the friend brings up concerns, validate and support, but don't push her toward a particular action.
  • In a group where no one else is polyamorous, avoid group judgment or gossip tone.

• Setting Intentions:

  • Nick notes it’s okay to have strong maternal/protective instincts, but emphasizes, “...the fact that she is pregnant, you causing your friend a lot of stress would be the literal opposite of protecting that baby.” [133:01]

• Final Word on Support:

  • Be a supportive friend, stay in your lane, and only step in deeper if her friend explicitly asks.
  • Kelly (accepting): “Be a supportive friend. Stay in your lane. Got it.” [139:00]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Nick's affirmation for struggling parents:
  “Your desire to be the mother you want to be is going to make you a great mother.” [13:57]

• On power in adult relationships:
  “You have all the power in this situation. And so far you are acting as if your mom still has all the power. The parent-child relationship is very difficult to break. Right. Because 18 years of your life...your mom had literally all the power.” [29:20]

• On prenup negotiation as a stress test for marriage:
  “What you guys showed a glimpse of is how you guys would be in this divorce, which is both kind of really stubborn and only thinking of yourselves.” [78:37]

• On the wrong way to negotiate a prenup:
  “The baseline for both of you was guaranteeing being yourself, that you were going to be in the best possible situation even if you got divorced.” [81:31]

• On helping friends with unconventional relationships:
  “If someone's not being seen, you see them...but don't say, 'You should be with someone who sees you.' She's an adult.” [126:41]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:14] Call 1: Catherine – Mother/daughter dynamics, boundaries, self-worth
• [47:36] Call 2: Jessica – Prenup negotiation, relationship dissolution
• [115:58] Call 3: Kelly – Polyamorous relationship, supporting a friend, boundaries

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Episode Tone & Takeaways

• Nick is empathetic but firm, supportive while pushing tough truths (“You’re wasting too much energy on this woman”), and balances pragmatism with humanity.
• There's frequent meta-advice on seeing things from the other's perspective, claiming your agency, and not trying to "win" at the expense of connection.
• Highly relevant for listeners navigating complicated family dynamics, the realities of merging finances/marriage, and the boundaries of friend intervention in difficult relationships.

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Bottom Line:
Whether grappling with toxic parents, high-stakes prenup talks, or watching a friend in an unusual and fraught relationship, Nick’s guidance centers on reclaiming personal power, honest self-reflection, conscious boundary-setting, and the importance of empathy — both for others and oneself.

Transcript

[Host]

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[Nick]

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[Kelly]

You're crazy.

[Nick]

How's it going?

[Catherine]

Good. I am Catherine. I'm 31 and I'm wondering, how do I move forward with a parent when they say the thing you fear most.

[Nick]

What'S the thing you fear most?

[Catherine]

Yeah. She essentially insinuated that I'm not a fit mother.

[Nick]

Okay, so your fear is not being a fit mother?

[Catherine]

Yes.

[Nick]

Why?

[Catherine]

Absolutely.

[Nick]

And from where we sit today, certainly it's every parent's fear. Right. You want to be a great parent and forgetting about what anyone says about you or including your internal, those thoughts that, you know, those dark thoughts that go on in our head, do you feel like you're a good mother?

[Catherine]

Yes. Yeah.

[Nick]

But the hesitation that I'm hearing from you is that again, the doubts because you're worried because of what people think about you or is there a specific reason that something that's going on in your life or in your world that makes you question and has that hesitation come in?

[Catherine]

Yeah, I'm dealing with just overcoming a lot of childhood trauma and everything like that. And I've noticed that I just, I get overstimulated easily by them and I, I worry that I'm not going about it the right way, that I'm falling short and I'm not showing up how I should.

[Nick]

And what do you mean by overstimulated? Like, can you, can you describe an example for me of a situation with your kids where something happens, you emotionally react, and then after the situation calms down, you reflect back and doubt your actions as a mother?

[Catherine]

Yeah, just, I mean, it can be as simple as if both of the kids have been having a rough day all day, and they're crying, I might have to take a step away from them. And it's instances like that where my mother implies that that's where I'm falling short.

[Nick]

And when you say a step away, like, are you like taking off for a month or are you like going in your room for 10 minutes and crying?

[Catherine]

Yeah, I'm going into my room or the bathroom for 10 minutes and crying. And she says that I shouldn't have to cry.

[Nick]

Okay, well, good for her. Are you a single mother? Do you have a partner involved in this equation?

[Catherine]

Yeah, I have a wonderful husband. He's very supportive.

[Nick]

Great. How old are your kids?

[Catherine]

One and two. They're 11 months apart.

[Nick]

Okay. Wow, that's. That's a lot for anyone to handle. Yeah, that's a lot. And then day to day, are you like, are you a stay at home mom and husband's working. Are you also working in this equation? Like, what's, what's, what's day to day look like for you?

[Catherine]

Yeah, I'm a stay at home mother. My husband is working.

[Nick]

Okay. And then how does your mom have insight into these moments?

[Catherine]

So just like a little background. We've never been that close. It hasn't been until recent years. It's just always felt very tumultuous. But now we're really close. Or we were. And she took my kids home over the fourth of July to Minnesota. I don't live there. And it just erupted. I guess it was just too much for her.

[Nick]

And why did she take your kids home in Minnesota? Like, how did that go down?

[Catherine]

Yeah, yeah. So she just, she wanted. She's always dreamt of, like, taking the kids for a week home to Minnesota and showing them all of the fun things on all of her acres and everything. And she kind of wanted to give us a break. We've had some household things we've had to take care of and haven't been able to with them. And so she took them for the 4th of July and my husband and I were going to go up and meet her. And that just is really. When it all just unleashed. I thought all of the progress we had made. Yeah. Just fell apart. And she had a lot.

[Nick]

Yeah, no. God. She had finished that thought.

[Catherine]

She just had a lot of opinions to say and it got really dark.

[Nick]

Really quick talk to me about your relationship with your mom and the childhood trauma that you.

[Catherine]

She just was never emotionally there for me. If I was crying, she would tell me to toughen up. And I understand that that's a very, you know, common thing for parents, but I feel like I just needed more emotional support. And it was always just her being so hard headed and telling me to just toughen up and grow up.

[Nick]

Anything else? Or is that just the basic theme of the disconnect between you and your mom?

[Catherine]

It was. I mean, my therapist uses the words emotionally abusive, but I feel like that is a hard term to use. But, yeah, she was just pretty mean. Kind of brought me down a lot.

[Nick]

Okay. Like belittled you and name calls you. Okay.

[Catherine]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

Like what? Like, what's the harsh memory of.

[Catherine]

I mean, I always heard the term, I love you, but I don't like you. It was always how I wasn't meeting her standards, how I wasn't good enough. Even when I graduated basic training, that wasn't good enough. It's just I'm never good enough.

[Nick]

Basic training for you? You were in the military?

[Catherine]

Yeah, yeah, I was in the Air Force.

[Nick]

What? I can't help but. What? Did you join the Air Force to prove something to Mom?

[Catherine]

Yeah. Yeah, actually, because she never thought I could do anything. And it's hard when you have a parent that thinks that. And then my biological father left me, so it's just kind of. I've always felt like I'm not good enough. And she kind of confirms that narrative I have in my head.

[Nick]

And then I guess I'm curious. How did you reconcile with mom? You made it. You implied that, like you guys mended some fences and thing. It sounded like things were on the other up and up in the past few years. How did that happen?

[Catherine]

Yeah, I got pregnant. And I would say that's definitely what brought us closer. And then with the birth of my children, you know, you just. You really need your parents in that time. And so we grew really close. I mean, we got to a point where we were talking every day, facetiming every night. She could see my children. And yeah, it was. It was a great relationship. I thought. I thought we'd move past everything.

[Nick]

I'm not in a position to say whether your mom's emotionally abusive or not. Not a therapist, but she sounds like a bully. And there's only one way to deal with bullies, and that is to stand up to them. It sounds like you've spent most of your childhood and even your adult life trying to prove something to your mom, to try to get her to see you differently or finally accept you for who you are and validate you in ways that you probably always wish. And every kid deserves to be validated by their parents. But unfortunately, your mom is a bully and she seems to only know how to parent in one way. And that is to bully, thinking that, like, tough love is the only way to communicate. I'm a big believer in tough love. You know, like I'm definitely. I think there is a time and a place to toughen up. All our feelings are valid, but we can't let our feelings dictate, you know, how we interact in every situation. That being said, there's also a time for empathy and love and validation and the I love you, but I don't like you. From a parent to a child, this seems like just a horrific thing to say. But yeah, your mom is a bully. And I guess I would love for you to figure out instead of trying to finally get mom to see you how you hope she would see you, I guess I would love for you to accept that she is a bully. And there's only so much you can, you know, like you can do all the therapy possible. We could talk every day, but you and I talking is never going to change your mom. And you working on yourself is never going to change your mom. So it really comes down to how are you going to change how you interact with mom? Not to get mom to change, but just so that you have the peace of mind and the confidence to know to stop letting this bully, regardless of the fact that she is your mom, dictate how you feel and destroy your self confidence and affect you as a mother. Right. You have this very gentle demeanor about you. Not sure how you are as a mother, but I'd be willing to bet, if anything, you're probably the exact opposite of your mom when it comes to your kids. It's kind of like when a parent is, let's say an alcoholic or something, usually goes one of two ways. Either that child might develop some problems with substance abuse as well, or they have this kind of very rigid hard line. I saw my mom or dad destroy our family with alcohol and I'm never going to touch the stuff type of thing. And I feel like you're giving me the energy that you're more the latter when it comes to how you want to be with your children. On the flip side, to your point, like, there is a time and a place for tough love and I want you to be able to find the balance that your mom was never able to find. You know, like being overly empathetic and afraid to like at the right. I mean, your kids are so young right now, you just want to love them, but at some point your kid's going to be old enough where instead of a gentle hug, they might need a gentle push. And I want you to be able to, like, know the difference. And right now you are questioning yourself constantly because of this emotional bullying that your mom has done. Listen, I haven't observed you as a parent. Natalie and I are just doing our best, too. I'm sure you're an amazing mother. You know, so much about being a great parent. Is the desire to be a great parent. All the talk about, like, narcissists these days, and like, I the joke or is like, if you've ever wondered to yourself, am I a narcissist, Then you're definitely not a narcissist because, like, you have the capacity to look in the mirror, reflect, and ask yourself, all these moments where I have put myself first or I've been a little selfish or demonstrated a narcissistic trait, does that make me narcissist? But that reflection is literally what a narcissist is incapable of doing. In the same vein, the fact that, like, you have, like, I doubt very much that your mom's ever looked in the mirror or asked anyone if she is a good mother.

[Catherine]

Yeah, I would agree with that.

[Nick]

The fact that you have speaks volume about your capabilities as a mother and your intentions to be a mother. I mean, yeah, maybe it's different times. I don't know. You know, like, you're right, like 50 years ago. It's just a different world and, you know, whatever, but, like, your desire to be the mother that you want to be is going to make you a great mother. And I think you just have to know, you know, you have to know that, right? Sort of like saying that to yourself and be like, well, I want to be a great mother, so I'm going to be a great mother. And, like, kind of have this kind of almost delusion about how you are, but I'm not sensing that from you.

[Catherine]

Thank you for saying that.

[Nick]

Oh, no problem. How's your relationship with your husband?

[Catherine]

It's good. It's really good.

[Nick]

That's great. I want that to be your priority. I mean, I would love. Listen, it's very easy for me, and I'm very privileged to have the parents I have, so I understand that. It's very easy for me to say, like, your relationship with your mother is just not that important compared to some of your other relationships. Being one, your relationship with your husband, you know, most important, your relationship with your kids. Now, your relationship with your kids is, you know, they're so young that, like, it's not as fragile as, say, a husband and wife. You know, even the best Relationships are fragile in the sense that, like, it doesn't take much to have two people being disconnected in life. Right. And so I use the word fragile because, like, I think healthy relationships and marriages, you know, there's a lot of things working against us in today's society in terms of, you know, staying together, being together, being on the same page, working as a team, supporting each other, validating each other, picking each other up when you're feeling down, pushing each other to rise, you know, when, when maybe we're not feeling and being our best selves, we don't have a lot of support from society in that space. And that's why I use the word fragile. Not necessarily because your individual relationship is fragile. I would, I'm guess you're spending a lot of time in therapy as we're talking now, focusing on your relationship with your mom.

[Catherine]

Yeah, that's the primary topic of conversation lately.

[Nick]

Well, let me ask this. When you're in therapy, what is the goal when it comes to the conversations you're having about your mom? Like, what are you trying to figure out?

[Catherine]

I honestly, I'm just trying to get that narrative out of my head. I feel like when I think negatively about myself or my actions, which is often it's in, like, her tone of voice or it's things she said to me in the past. And so I'm trying to honestly just move on. Okay, then the hardest part.

[Nick]

What's, what's the hardest part about that?

[Catherine]

And just struggling with accepting her for who she is and our relationship for what it is and what it will be. The fact that it's never.

[Nick]

Did you feel better about yourself when you had a less of a relationship with Mom? Yeah.

[Catherine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And when mom popped back into your life, did you guys kind of almost slip into some of the same toxic patterns that you guys had when, prior to you disconnecting from Mom?

[Catherine]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Catherine]

I feel like I always try to please her and forget about what pleases me.

[Nick]

Yeah. What does your husband think about all this?

[Catherine]

Well, she's been nasty to him, too, in the past, so he hates how her actions impact me because I'm still crying about it. And this happened almost two months ago.

[Nick]

And his parents, are they in the picture?

[Catherine]

Yes. Yeah. And they're incredible.

[Nick]

That's awesome.

[Catherine]

Yeah. I'm very fortunate in that.

[Nick]

Again, I say this as someone who comes from a great relationship with my parents, but I, I, I, I just, I think I would love for you to figure out a way to take control of your relationship with your mom and I think it first starts with accepting who your mom is. I think the challenge sometimes when it comes to these relationships is that, like, you. You can only do so much in a. In a romantic relationship if there's, you know, let's. Let's say you or your husband were at odds or whatever, and. And your husband's like, I don't wanna do couples therapy. And you're like, okay, well, I'm gonna go do therapy. Like, there's only so much you can do in therapy when it comes to your relationship with your husband. Right. If assuming he doesn't want to participate in therapy, there's only so much you can do in your individual therapy when it comes to your relationship with your mom. I'm glad that your goal is to just almost to, like, move on from the impact your mom has, your life. But you're trying to do that while still having a relationship with mom without standing up to Mom.

[Catherine]

I guess my question for you is I wrote a letter to my mother, and I haven't heard anything back, and it was just apologizing.

[Nick]

You apologized to your mom?

[Catherine]

Yeah, because I feel like there are areas in which I could be better. I.

[Nick]

So listen again. Your mom's a bully, and bullies respond to weakness, and your mom doesn't see an apology as ownership of your actions. Like, some people might see an apology as strength. Right. Like, I think being vulnerable takes a lot of confidence in a world where we're so fixated on being right. I do think it takes a lot of guts in a lot of situations to say, I'm sorry. I was wrong. But your mom isn't one of those people. She's a bully. And so your letter saying I'm sorry was her feeling. Right. And you were never gonna get the response that you wanted. I hate to say it. I hate that you wrote her a letter. I don't even care what it said, because I think she just. She's gonna weaponize it against you. And her not responding is a manipulation tactic by her. And again, I think she just sees an apology as weakness. I think, honestly, the only way and what I want for you and I don't know, again, I'm not there. I want you to stop caring about what mom thinks. I want you to start looking at what you have done. Surround yourself with the people who love you the most, starting with your husband. Do you have siblings?

[Catherine]

Yes, I do. I have a younger brother.

[Nick]

What's your relationship with him?

[Jessica]

Close.

[Nick]

What's his relationship with Mom?

[Catherine]

He sees her for who she is.

[Nick]

Okay, so lean on those relationships. You know what I'm saying? Like, you are now an adult, and while it's sad and unfortunate, you have the relationship with your mom, you are lucky enough to have a positive relationship with your brother. And now you two have each other to lean on. I'm not saying you should get together and talk shit about mom, but you now know what it's like to be the child of your mother. No one can relate to your brother more than you, and vice versa when it comes to the emotional impact your mom's had on your life. So I hope, if nothing else, you go out of your way to validate your brother, to let him know various reasons how you believe in him or why you're proud of him or why you think he's done some great things to offer him grace and things like that. Yeah, you guys have each other. I would rather have you invest energy in your relationship with your brother than with your mother. I think right now the energy you're investing in mom is mostly wasted. And I don't think she is seeing it as a second chance. I really, you know, I think. And if we want to offer your mom grace, I'm sure she had an even shittier childhood and she has passed down this generational trauma down to you, but it can stop with you. And you can offer your mom grace and love in the sense that, like, you can forgive her for her faults, you can still love her and hope for the best of her, but that it doesn't require you having a relationship with her. And if that changes, I think the onus needs to come from her. I really think you, you know, instead of trying to figure out how to appease mom or writing her a letter and apologizing to her, and again, I say I come from a place of privilege when it comes to this because, like, I have this from my parents. And the only way your mom's going to change is if she wakes up and changes. And it's going to start by you setting some very clear boundaries when it comes to your mom and communicating those expectations. And you can communicate those expectations by not by just cutting her off, or you could just say, hey, like, there's a new sheriff in town, so to speak. And if you want access to me or my children, here's how it's going to work. And your husband has every right to also communicate that. And if your mom wants to react in the manner in which she has reacted, which is with vitriol and hurt words and nastiness, let her you can cut her off, you know, she doesn't live with you. You can stop this woman from having access to you. The challenge you have is you become this 12 year old girl when your mom speaks to you. And while not rational, there's a part of you that doesn't even comprehend your ability to say, I don't need to hear this from this woman. You know, she doesn't have the right to speak to me this way. You know, there's a party that's still. Well, she's my mom. What am I supposed to do?

[Catherine]

Yeah, exactly. And I do feel this immense amount of guilt about keeping my children from her right now.

[Nick]

Your kids are two in one. All right? They're not, they don't remember anything. Yeah, right. You know, most kids aren't lucky enough to even know who their grandparents are. That's not gonna like your, your. Your children's childhoods and happiness and futures will not be based on their relationship with their grandparents. Like, there are some very unfortunate family dynamics out there where some amazing grandparents have stepped up and saved the day because mom and dad were not either present or maybe had drug addiction. Who knows? So shout out to all those amazing grandparents out there. But you're their parent. You're the mom. They have a dad. They don't need grandma. And right now, grandma isn't offering anything positive. More than anything at the age in which your children are old enough to remember and listen and respond. I wouldn't let your kids anywhere near this woman because she is toxic. And she is going to pass down that same emotional, if you want to call it abuse to your kids. If, if nothing else, she is going to talk shit about you to your own children.

[Catherine]

She talks shit about me to my friends. So I guess I don't know why. I wouldn't assume she wouldn't do it to my children.

[Nick]

And if I were you, I mean, that would piss me off. You need to start getting mad at mom. Not sa bad.

[Catherine]

I think it, it just feels like to another individual. Why was I not enough?

[Nick]

Well, I, I think that's where you have to. It's not about you, you know?

[Catherine]

Yeah, that is true.

[Nick]

That's the hard part. You know, in these moments, there's a lot of things that go on in our lives where something happens to us. We are at the receiving end. Like we want something, we don't get the thing that we want. It's outside of our control. We feel very helpless. But the reality, and this is not going to necessarily make you feel better, but it's outside of your control. You know, it's not about you. It has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with your mom. And it has probably a lot to do with her mom and how she was raised. And she is a broken bird. And again, you can have grace for her and pity your mom and feel sorry for her that she is this broken person that has a bad relationship with her daughter, her son, her. Her son in law that like a lot of people look at her with disdain and sadness because she is not a great parent, you know, because she's done maybe arguably more damage than good. And that's a hard pill to swallow if someone were to say that, say this to the woman. But that is a reality. So if you're going to feel anything for your mom, I would feel pity and sadness.

[Catherine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, and certainly you have the right to be angry and. Yeah, I get it. Like, it's not fair. It is not fair. It's not fair that you don't get to have the relationship that you want with your mom.

[Catherine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You have to put a stop to this because your mom's not going to.

[Catherine]

Okay.

[Nick]

And if that means cutting mom off because she's not going to listen, then so be it. The next step is saying mom. Like, listen, like, I'm not hearing it anymore. You know, when you talk to your mom, I want you to say, I don't care what you say about me. I know who I am and I know I'm a good mom. I'm not a perfect mom. And I'm not going to get into why? Because it could be a lot of things that she didn't do. But, like, what I'm not going to do is make my children feel the way you've made your kids feel. And I'm not going to let you talk about me and my husband. I'm not going to let you treat my husband with the disrespect that you often do or the way you treated me. And if you're not going to work on yourself and fix yourself, then you're not going to have a relationship with me or your grandchildren. And there's just honestly no discussion about it. You can talk your to my friends, you can scream, you can do whatever, but like, you have no power here. Mom.

[Catherine]

Yeah. You know, so I shouldn't reach out again.

[Nick]

I wouldn't. No.

[Catherine]

Okay. Okay.

[Nick]

If I were you, yeah, I would mentally just. And honestly, I wouldn't take her calls.

[Jessica]

Okay.

[Nick]

I mean, you know.

[Catherine]

Yeah, yeah. No, you're. You're right. You're right. I.

[Nick]

If this is like, how would, how would I handle this? If it's the same situation, I would call up your mom.

[Catherine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

If this was Natalie's mom. And I would tell her exactly how things are going to be going forward. And I would say, listen, you know, you might not think it's my place. I honestly don't really care. I'm making this call for my family. I don't appreciate how you've treated me. I don't appreciate how you treated my wife, your daughter. Here's how things are going to be going forward. If you want a relationship with me or your daughter and your grandchildren, you're gonna have to treat us all very differently. We will no longer ever be allowing our kids to like. I know you needed a break. I think it's kind of crazy that you let your parents, your two year old and one year old go to grandma's house alone with that woman. You know, And I'm sure there's a part of you that was hoping that like, well, if I let mom do this, you know, it's like again, that was the child in you saying, well, I'm gonna let her do this and she will reward me for it. I feel like you, you, you sending your kids there, giving your mom her wish of like, I've always dreamed of having my kids up at the house and showing them around was a way to, well, if I let them do that, then mom, mom will reward me somehow with the love I've never received.

[Catherine]

That's exactly it. Yeah, that's exactly it.

[Nick]

And it obviously didn't work, you know.

[Catherine]

No, no, not at all. If anything, it made it work. Things worse.

[Nick]

Yeah. One thing I want you to take away from this call is you have all the power in this situation. And so far you are acting as if your mom still has all the power. The parent child relationship is very difficult to break. Right. Because 18 years of your life, which is. You're 31.

[Catherine]

Yes.

[Nick]

More than half your life. Your mom had literally all the power. You had no rights as a child. You were legally had to listen to your mom, you know.

[Catherine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And so that's, that's hard to break. Right. That's, you know, but you, you have to remind yourself, I have the power now. I do not need to listen to this woman. I do not need to put up with how she makes me feel. She does not deserve access to my children. Forget. Stop call it her grandchildren. I don't give a fuck. You know, they're your Kids, they're your husband's kids. And she has everyone in the world, whether it's your, your parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, they all have to earn the right to be in your kids life. And if they, you know, don't use. No, and I'm not saying this to like use your kids as a way to weaponize, you know, like your relationships with other people, but if in any way you don't feel like a relationship with the outside world for your kids is healthy for you, your, you do not have to appease those people. And I just want you to see that this is your family. And what really matters more than anything is your relationship with your husband and your relationship with your kids. And right now, thankfully, your kids are too young to process any of this, remember any of this. So you still have some time for you and your husband to change the dynamic of your relationship with your mom so that like they don't experience this tension. Your kids aren't even old enough to, they're not going to remember this visit at grandma's house. You know what I'm saying? They will never know. Yeah, right.

[Catherine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So let's fast forward three years. You know, let's say that you know, your oldest goes to preschool or you know, kindergarten and you know, she makes friends and all of a sudden someone's like, oh, my grandma's coming over and her grand. And their grandparents are wonderful and she comes to mom, she's like, where's our grandma? Or whatever. Or your mom, I mean again you have time to figure out that. You could just say, you know, you can talk, I don't know, you have time to figure out what you say to your kids, but you can come up with something that makes sense and is okay. And again, you're very like, I want you to focus on what you do have, which is a positive relationship with your in laws. But just again know that like your, your in laws and your mom are just, they don't really matter when it comes to your children's life and their story and their, and their childhood and whether it's happy or sad because they have you.

[Catherine]

I have to remember that I, I'm, I'm struggling with that part, that I'm enough.

[Nick]

Yeah, I mean it's hard because again, the emotional damage your mom has done. But I want your, I want you to listen to your husband when he compliments you. I want you to say that you have to say this to yourself, right? Because you have this internal monologue that started from your mom and you kind of have to train yourself. You went to the army and you did some. You served your country. And that takes a ton of guts. And that's an honorable thing. And I need you to compliment yourself about that honorable thing you did. I want you to be proud of what you did. I don't. Who gives a shit what your mom thinks of it? Did your mom. Was your mom in the army?

[Catherine]

No. No, she wasn't.

[Nick]

Do you think she didn't have the guts or the capability of doing that?

[Catherine]

No.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Catherine]

No, definitely not.

[Nick]

And I want you to recognize that.

[Catherine]

Like, yeah, I definitely don't give myself enough credit. And that's something I need to work on. My husband says that all the time.

[Nick]

So work on it. You know, and the energy. You are like that. Stop writing letters to mom like you write a letter to yourself, you know, literally. Yeah, I mean, that'd probably be a good practice. You know, just. What are you proud of? Write it down, Read it. Have it, like, have a note, you know, keep it between. A journal, you know. Yeah.

[Catherine]

Yeah, that's a really good idea, actually. I never thought about doing that.

[Nick]

And I want you to. I want that to be. That's the ruminating I want you to do and not. Why? You know, it's just like you are old enough and capable enough while I know it's like easy to kind of slip back into that child, to objectively have an almost out of body experience, to know that you are enough, whether you feel it or not right now, that that's a work in progress. Right. But objectively, you know the things that you've accomplished and you know that like, you could have ended up like your mom, but you didn't.

[Catherine]

Yeah, that's my biggest goal, is to not end up like her.

[Nick]

But you haven't. Right? Like you're already. You've already done that. Yeah.

[Catherine]

I guess where I get concerned is like, when I do have these moments where I'm overstimulated, I get worried. Like, is this like my mother? Am I on the track to become like my mother?

[Nick]

Well, I don't. I mean, I. Did you ever see your mom go in a room and cry?

[Kelly]

No.

[Catherine]

No, she would just let it build up.

[Nick]

Do you do that?

[Catherine]

No.

[Nick]

Okay, so then you're not like your mom. Listen, it's okay to have a moment of weakness. It's okay to be overwhelmed. I mean, you have two kids under the age of two. That's a lot. You know, most of the day your husband's at work working hard for the family and you're left alone with the kids. It's a lot for any parent. Hell, I mean, we have one kid, and it's just me and Natalie and her mom. You know, it's a lot for both of us, you know, because your kids are at the age where you can't keep your eyes off of them. So it's like you just never have a moment for yourself, you know, and when your husband gets home from work, he's tired from a long day of work, you know, and you're both kind of probably fighting for that. Like, just like, it's, gimme 10 minutes, you know, like, I cherish 10 minutes of silence. I love my wife, I love my daughter. My whole life is centered around them. We spend all of our time together. I love every second of it. But, like, I'm an introvert who, like, needs, like, I. I also, like, benefit from isolation and alone time. And I, like, I feel comfortable in my thoughts and in my head, and I have less of that these days. So when I have five minutes, like, I cherish it.

[Catherine]

Exactly.

[Nick]

And you're allowed to cherish that. That doesn't make you a bad mom. That makes you a human being. You know, like, you need to have your things that help you regulate. You know, you're not a machine. You are allowed to have those moments instead of seeing it as weakness, just like you are. You are regulating your emotions.

[Catherine]

Thank you for phrasing it like that. I really appreciate it.

[Nick]

No problem. I mean, one thing. Growing up, I, you know, I was very lucky. I never saw my parents fight. I certainly had a front seat at some family traumas my mom had with her mom and her siblings and yada, yada, yada. But my parents did their kids the benefit of whatever fights they had or disagreements, they did it behind closed doors. They didn't show their kids that because it, you know, and I, They. I didn't have to see a lot of that stuff that, quite honestly, your kids don't need to see. So the fact that you do take a moment and go in your room, your mom would probably do the opposite. She would cry in front of your kids and then, like, weaponize that and to make them feel guilty about it and, like, almost like, blame their kids for how they made mom feel.

[Catherine]

Yes, exactly.

[Nick]

You don't do that. That's. That's you. That's you thinking of your kids. That's you being an amazing mother. That's. That's you being selfless, you know, and even when you are having this breakdown and feel like you are still thinking of your kids first.

[Catherine]

Yeah, you're right. You are right.

[Nick]

So. Yeah, you just. A lot of this stuff. I just want. I want you to. I. You're wasting too much energy on this woman.

[Catherine]

Yeah, I am. I am.

[Nick]

And I. You know, you have all the power, number one. I do not. This. It's sad. It's sad. You want a relationship with your mom, of course, and that's sad. And you can mourn that, but it's her choice. And sadly, not having a relationship with mom is better than having a relationship with mom. And you have the power to dictate those terms, and I want you to realize that.

[Catherine]

Okay? Yeah.

[Nick]

And if in the moment you don't have the strength to stand up to your mom, I bet you your husband does. So let him.

[Catherine]

Okay. I thought that maybe that was too much.

[Nick]

No, you are. You guys are a team. Be a team.

[Catherine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know?

[Catherine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Let each other, you know, step up for each other when the other feels like they lack the strength to do that. You know, that's the whole. What's the. That's the point of being married and having a partnership is that you guys can help fight each other's battles.

[Catherine]

I guess I felt like it was my family, therefore. No, I should deal with it.

[Nick]

This is your family. And by your family, I mean your kids, your husband. Like, you need to change the way you like your family. Is that right? The moment you get married and have kids, like, it's not like, my family is my wife and my kids. And yes, of course, like, I love my siblings and my parents, and I take care of my parents, and I'm proud of that. And I, again, I'm very lucky to have the relationship I have with my parents. But, like, they're not my top priority anymore. Yeah. They're not even close. And I'm very lucky to have the. You know, and I get that from my parents, that. That logic. You know, they both had their. You know, they. I think they overall had, like, generally positive relationships with their. Their parents, all things considered the times and things like that. But my parents taught me that where it's just like, their family was the family they created, and if you wanted to be a part of that family, you had to play by their rules.

[Catherine]

Okay, I like that.

[Kelly]

I like that.

[Nick]

And if your mom wants access to your family, she has to play by her rules. And you don't have to bend. You don't have to negotiate. You don't have to compromise. You don't even have to be fair. But you're gonna be fair because you. You're a fair person and you want a relationship with mom. And if your mom were to rectify things, you would, I'm sure, offer her grace. Yeah, I think right now your mom needs to, like, be put in a corner, so to speak. And I think she needs a wake up call that, like, there's a new sheriff in town. Because again, your mom is a bully. And the only way to respond to bullies is to kind of meet them at their level. And I'm not saying you should be deliberately mean to mom, but I think you guys need to stand up to your mom. Enough is enough. We're putting a stop to this. You're a bully. You're no longer going to bully us. Talk your shit, do what you want, but you have no power here anymore. Mom. I don't think she needs to hear something like that. You will not see us or your children if you choose to treat us this way, if you choose to communicate to us and belittle us and make us feel bad. We don't need whether. What you think of us as parents is irrelevant and we don't care. And I want your mom to hear from your husband and eventually you, when you're capable of saying it, is. I don't need your approval on me as a parent. I know I'm a good mom. I'm not gonna say, you know, you don't need to say the hurtful thing. You don't need to. You don't need to belittle her as a parent. You just need to stand up to her in a way that she would never imagine. Hearing that. Yeah. And whatever energy you're wasting, your mom, I want you to give it to your brother. I want you to give it to your husband. I want you to give it to your kids. Stop wasting it on this woman.

[Catherine]

Okay. Oh, it's gonna take some work, that's for sure. But I'm definitely. I'm definitely going to try. It's not worth the energy or honestly, just the tears anymore.

[Nick]

I know it's going to take work, but give yourself some more credit. It's not as impossible as it feels right now. Yeah, it's just not. Your mom has no power. There's nothing she can do. The moment you simply just decide. You know what I'm saying, There's no legal system. There's no, like, approval process. There's no committee that's gonna. You have. You don't have to convince anyone but yourself.

[Catherine]

I can. I can do this. I can do this.

[Nick]

There you go. That's the energy I want. I can do this. I, I'm a good mom. Not I, I not. I'm. You know, those, those self limiting beliefs. I want, you know, they're gonna pop in your head, but I want you to recognize them and then I want you to get rid of them. Okay.

[Catherine]

Yeah, I can do that.

[Nick]

And when you go to Ann, I'm not a therapist, whatever, but when you go to therapy, I would love for you to focus your conversation and energy on how you feel about yourself. I don't. I want you to focus less on talking about mom. And I want it to be about you, your belief in yourself as a mom. How do you prioritize your relationship with your husband? How do you still take advantage of the fact that despite your childhood with your mom, you have a good, solid relationship with your brother? And how do you guys give each. That's you know what I'm saying? Like, you're both probably still trying to figure out how to get mom to love you. And that might not ever happen, but you guys have each other. So be there for each other. Send. I'm proud of you. You're. I don't know what's going on in your brother's life, but whatever is going on in his life, I validate him. Give him the love that he's not, you know, the same love that I'm sure you. What your brother needs in terms of validation. Because it's probably all the things that you want from mom. So give them that. Be there for each other.

[Catherine]

I'll definitely do that. You're right. I. I don't think we pour into each other nearly enough.

[Nick]

Well, I hope this was helpful.

[Catherine]

It was. It was very helpful. Thank you. Well, you have a great rest of your day, Nick. Thank you so much.

[Nick]

For you as well. And would love an update from you, you know, in a month or two. I'd love to. To hear that you've been able to kind of change how you've channeled your energy when it comes to this relationship. Give your husband permission to have your back and trust his instincts when it comes to allowing him to stand up to anyone he needs to stand up for the sake of your family and you.

[Catherine]

I'll definitely do that. I held him back on that because I thought it was too much.

[Nick]

But there is no such thing when it comes to you guys prioritizing. Protecting your family and your family is just that. You two and your kids.

[Catherine]

That is true.

[Nick]

And everyone else is just lucky to Have a seat at the table that they are not entitled to.

[Catherine]

Okay, you're right. You're right.

[Nick]

All right.

[Catherine]

Okay. Well, thank you so much.

[Nick]

Take care.

[Catherine]

You too.

[Nick]

All right. Bye. Bye. This is an ad by Better Help. We are talking about therapy all the time on this show. How it's helped me, how it's helped Natalie, how it's helped us. And therapy is just a great way to just let things go, you know, get things off your chest. We know how difficult and how intimidating therapy can be. Certainly there's a cost associated with it. It can be difficult to find a therapist that's right for you. And sometimes it just feels like we don't have any time in our day to add one more thing to our schedule. But with better help, they're helping alleviate all those pain points. It's incredibly convenient. You can literally do it as long as you have a phone or a tablet. And we certainly know everyone in the world spends a lot of time on their phone. So spend it with a therapist to get some of those things that are stressing you out off your chest. Also, the my favorite thing about BetterHelp, since they're working with over 30,000 therapists, they're making it easier for all of their customers to find a therapist that they connect with. You can switch a therapist every time until you feel like you have someone that really gets you, that really understands you and really helps you. So much about therapy is, you know, making sure that you feel like there is progress being made and better help is helping you do that. These therapists are clinically trained in all kinds of expertise. So depending on what type of therapy you're looking for, Better Help has you covered. They've been helping people match with their perfect therapist for over 10 years now and have a 4.9 rating from 1.7 million client session reviews. So what are you waiting for? Stop procrastinating. And if you have ever considered therapy, if you're feeling a little stressed out, if work is getting you down, if you just are find yourself ruminating over and over, Let Better Help help you improve your mental health. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with Better help. Our listeners get 10% off off their first month at betterhelp.com v I a l l that's BetterHelp. H e l p.com v I a.

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[Nick]

How's it going? Good.

[Jessica]

My name is Jessica. I'm 32 years old. And did I make the right decision in breaking up my engagement over a prenup?

[Nick]

Okay, interesting. Tell me about your engagement, your relationship.

[Jessica]

Okay, so two years ago, we met in the wild. We met on a, like a singles trip to Lake Powell, if you've ever heard of it. It's a big place where people go to hang out and boat on the weekend, be on the water, that kind of a thing. And we met and it was very much like organic. It was like your dream meet cute. We had like, yeah, a fun time anyways. And then pretty immediately after he, like, asked me out, we started dating right away. We basically became boyfriend and girlfriend after two weeks of meeting. Like, it was very much like matching each other's energy and everything was good from there. So I really, like, appreciated the way it started. But then going into it, we ended up, you know, dating for two years. Later we got engaged at. It was a year and a half. We got engaged after dating.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Jessica]

And then it was basically, I knew the whole time, like date one even that he wanted a prenup.

[Nick]

Why do you Know that he had told me in the date, is he well off financially?

[Jessica]

You know, he's. He does do well. Like he's a dentist. I'll say that. So he does well. But it wasn't like, you know, and this is like finding out over two years of dating. Like, I. It didn't seem like he necessarily had all these like, hidden accounts. He had a lot of money or like he didn't own his own practice. So it wasn't like he had some equity in the company. Like he had bought in a house. So he had equity in a house. But as far as I knew, there was nothing like, beyond your regular, like, I own a home and like, I have my investment accounts. Like, nothing beyond those normal things.

[Kelly]

Things.

[Jessica]

Does that make sense?

[Nick]

Yeah. I just had a curiosity. When you first started dating, how did it come up that he wanted a prenup? Was it like, did date one? Just so you know, if we ever get married, I go, I'm gonna want a prenup.

[Jessica]

Yeah. Because it. The way that our, like everything happened, it just moved really quick. We started having those serious conversations quick. Like it was off the bat. Like, you know, what did you want your family to look like and how, you know, it was very much like it just. Everything clicked. Where we are almost already talking about those marriage conversations early on. Like, he, he even like told me he's like, it felt different. Like dating you is different. Like, it was very much like we thought it was the end game. Like kind of when everybody says, you know, you know, that's kind of how it felt.

[Nick]

Gotcha.

[Jessica]

Early on.

[Nick]

And then prenup aside, how was your relationship?

[Jessica]

Well, that's where like, it kind of like, you know, when you, you ask like, okay, did the prenup backup who the guy actually was? I mean, I could say yes now, but I mean, ultimately, when it came down to like the reason I broke engagement, it was singular to the prenup. Because the way I was kind of looking at it was that everybody, let's.

[Nick]

Just table that for a second. I just want to hear about the relationship. Like, you're. I don't know what your pet peeves and non negotiables are, prenup aside, but I'm curious, like, how he made you feel on a day to day basis. You know, was he a partner in the truest sense, where you, he. Was he someone you could go to for emotional support? Did you guys, you know, run ideas by each other? Did you feel like he. You were someone in his life whose opinion he respected? Etc. Like what, whatever the, you know, the day to day. Did you have fun together, make each other laugh? You know, like, were you. Did you feel like you guys were a team?

[Jessica]

I mean, I did like, especially early on. Like, you know, that first year, I think I was definitely like bought in. And I think that I, I really like, loved him. I was know, obsessed with him. Like, I put him on a pedestal of like this, everything that I wanted. And I actually think that was probably part of the problem because I knew like, the things that he wanted as far as like marriage goes. But when it got closer to actually like getting married and finding out like, what a marriage felt like or what a marriage meant to him, and again, that kind of revolves about. Around the prenup a little bit because that to me was like how he felt about marriage.

[Nick]

What do you mean by that?

[Jessica]

Like, just when the prenup actually came to light of what was in it, it was like, it was almost like he didn't, you know, he wanted to make sure that he always had an out. Which to me, that's kind of how.

[Nick]

How so what do you mean by that?

[Jessica]

Like, the prenup essentially was like, you know, a regular prenup is like what I knew about. It was what's yours is yours, mine is mine. Right. That's how we kind of all.

[Nick]

Yeah, it's the.

[Jessica]

Think of a normal prenup.

[Nick]

Sure. I guess that's the starting point. But yeah, yeah.

[Jessica]

So with this though, it was very much like, what's yours is yours, mine is mine. But then also I buy, let's say if I buy a practice in the marriage that's also mine, like, that's not ours. And like, if I, I want to keep my investment account, so like my 401k or whatever else I have going on, those remain mine even after marriage. And like, he kind of wanted to like, bar me from every like, investment that he was making prior to or after marriage. And to me, like, that's where. When you ask if, if he is a good partner, I was like, well, that's not like a partnership to me if I'm not involved in those things. Or like, I mean, the. Essentially I would be involved in those things because, like, that's what a marriage is. But even though I was involved, I was probably never going to get the benefits of any of those things.

[Nick]

Gotcha. And there was no discussion about like, what would be the two of yours.

[Jessica]

I tried to have those conversations, but it, it just like, I don't know, it was all based on, like, what ifs? Because to me it was like, okay, what if you buy a practice? Like, what if that's, that's successful or not? I mean, who's going to know if that's going to be even a successful business venture? It could be unsuccessful. And then now I'm trapped with you in an unsuccessful business venture, essentially.

[Nick]

Well, in that case, his prenup would benefit you. Because if he was an unsuccessful businessman, a lot of doctors are good doctors, terrible at business. And let's say he took on a lot of debt and woke up one day and realized, you know, then you would have benefited from the fact that he was like, this is mine and not yours, and it'd be great. That's all your debt, not mine.

[Jessica]

Yeah, well, and that's kind of like what leads into like the relationship ultimately ended because I just didn't see the partnership under the marriage. But that's where even for the future, I think prenups are something that are largely not talked about. And I'm like, I actually tend to maybe date more affluent men or like, that's been my history. And so I'm wondering going forward, like, I don't know what I should look for. Like, I just feel like this conversation is not had. Like, women keep this so private. And I'm like, how common is it to run into these things? And like, you know, should I have signed the prenup? Because ultimately it protected me from a bad businessman. You know what I mean?

[Nick]

And so, yeah, potentially. Listen, I'm not a lawyer.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But I can tell you that like, like, especially in 2025, marriage is a contract. It is. And every person who gets married has a prenup. And that prenup, if they don't do a prenup, is decided by the state that you live in.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Or get divorced in. And so if you reside in, you know, California and then get divorced, you will have to follow California state law in terms of what they decide in terms of. And I think, like, California is a no fault state. I think Wisconsin's the same. And like California and Wisconsin, ironically, with two places that I'm associated with are it's a 50, 50 state and no matter what, who cheats on who, what goes down, blah, blah, blah, like it's 50, 50 assets. Like, that's those laws. Every other state has different laws, but whether you realize it or not or anyone listening, you have a prenup. Right. It's a contract. And you have to follow those contracts. Unless the two of you, as A couple say, well, I'm not going to let the state decide our future if things don't work out the way we hope we're going to decide. And maybe our first conversation, our first difficult conversation as a couple that intends to get married is to sit down and hash out what we think we're going to want. Want if things don't work out the way we want. So this idea that some people have out there, I would never sign a prenup if I get married, is delusional because you are literally signing a prenup the moment you sign a marriage license. And in fact, it's actually idiotic when you think about it that way to sign something that either of you had no say on. You just accepted whatever the laws are in the state in which you reside if you get divorced. Again, I'm not a lawyer. Pretty sure I'm right about this, but. Yeah, you are. You are accepting the laws of whatever state you're in if you don't have your own prenup now, getting into the weeds of what he wanted versus what you wanted, like, yeah, you might sit down with them with the best intentions and say, you know, all right, let's take control of our future. This is, like, not a fun conversation. I don't want to sit there and start thinking about what we're going to do if we don't work out before we even started marriage. But, like, listen, life is not a fairy tale fail. It's not a fantasy. You can't predict the future. And, like, it's this. This a married couple. It's not gonna be the last tough conversation people have, so you just gotta figure it out, right? And if he's like. If he's just like, well, this is what I want, and I don't really care what you want. And this isn't a negotiation. This is my way or the highway. Well, that. That's certainly like, a data point that might make you second guess your decision to marrying that person. Because, again, it. It's A marriage is a partnership, and therefore, conversations about finances in a prenup should be a partnership. You should all both have, you know, like, you are required to have separate legal representation. Did you ever hire a lawyer?

[Jessica]

I did. So I totally agree with you. And I. Actually, that's where I got to the point where I felt like after talking to the lawyer and everything, where, like, it just wasn't coming down to what was fair. Because the other part about the partnership is he wanted me to actually be, like, his ideal of the Family was like, for me to be a stay at home mom. And, like, that's what he was like. He kind of, like, maybe wanted a bigger family. He was very traditional. So that was kind of the. In my head, I couldn't wrap my head around, like, how am I supposed to give you all this, like, financial security for yourself? But then in me being a stay at home mom.

[Nick]

Yeah. That's insane.

[Jessica]

Yeah. So, like, how, like, that's like, where I'm like, how am I supposed to sign a prenup?

[Nick]

Prenup.

[Jessica]

And this is. Maybe a lot of women deal with this. Like, how am I supposed to sign a prenup with somebody that, like, is potential? Like, I have kids and now I have to be a stay at home mom. Like, how do people ever work that out? Or like, how does a stay at home mom ever go into signing a prenup? Essentially, like, is.

[Nick]

Well, I mean, there's a prenup and then there's things like child support, there's spousal support, you know, so you can still have a prenup. Also, like, contracts can be deemed inequitable or unfair, so to speak, from what I'm hearing from you, like, you know, if your husband were able to negotiate with you and saying, all right, I want you to be a stay at home mom, my money is my money. Your money that you're not going to be making is your money. And then if we get divorced, I don't owe you any spousal support. A good chance that if you guys got divorced, you could then sue your husband and get your prenup thrown out.

[Kelly]

Out.

[Nick]

Because a lot of judges out there would say, this, this is a contract. It's not an equitable. And I don't know who your lawyer was at the time, but I don't feel like you had good representation. Others go, no guarantees. His lawyer might basically say, hey, she signed a deal. She signed a deal.

[Jessica]

Yeah, well, and that was my worry. It was like, I kind of knew that. Like, yeah, you can actually put anything down in a prenup, but that doesn't mean it's going to hold up in law. Right?

[Nick]

Correct. I wouldn't let that be your. Your plan. That's not a good plan to have, but that still might be what happens. But you're right. I mean, if he was expecting you not to work and have a career and be the mother of your kids while you stay home and raise your children with him, while he was able to make money for himself, and then to decide how he gets to share that with his wife and his children, and you have no say over it. And then at the risk of things not working out, and he could leave you, and you have given up quality years of your life and earning potential and things like that, and leave you. Because that's kind of how it used to be, right back in the day when traditionally it was only the man who worked and the wife would stay home and take care of the kids. If he left her high and dry, she'd be fucked. You know, it's 2025. It's different now. A lot of women are working. A lot of women are the breadwinners of the family and things like that. You know, I think a lot of marriage laws are. Are outdated and archaic and, like, don't represent, like, the state of relationships in 2025. That aside, your husband being the traditional, more conservative man that it sounds like he was, he wanted a very traditional situation, which is in a lot of ways bullshit, you know, and unfair to the women in their lives. So my general takeaway is I think prenups are a smart thing for a lot of couples. And like I said, dad, you're signing a prenup anyways. So most of the time, in. Most situ. I think in most marriages, people are meeting at a similar time in their life and they're earning. You know, like, it's almost silly to sign, like, a prenup because it's like. It's like, I have some debt and I have some money, and you have some debt and you have some money, and, like, what. Why are we wasting more money on hiring lawyers to say, your is your. My is my. It's like, great. And. And most of. Of things that you'll be fighting over is what you guys earn as a team, as a couple, and that will be the both of yours. But if he is not going to recognize the role that you're going to play as the mother of his children and the support that you're going to give him while you take care of his children, and he is not going to be willing to share what he does. That's. Yeah, that's bullshit.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Now, I mean, like, I think there's nuances into, like, hit. Like, if he were to buy a business and like, like, I'm sure he's a very pragmatic guy, and I'm sure he's thinking, well, what if you screw me over? Everyone when they get into a marriage and sign a prenup is always thinking, well, what if you fuck me over? You know, no, One's thinking, I'm gonna fuck you over. Most people are. Most people are not like, all right, there's a good chance I'm not gonna be faithful in five years. And if I turn into a piece of shit, I need to make sure that I don't also, like, lose my ass in this marriage. Very few people. I mean, if that's the case, that's not a very good mo. Everyone is like, what if you me over?

[Jessica]

And I definitely think that was, like, his approach. Like, I need. I think he's known people growing up where it's like, they did get screwed over in a divorce, and it wasn't their fault. And, like, here they are, like, their wives are taking half of everything they own when they're the ones that cheated on them. And it just seems like a really messed up system. And so that's where I was, like, very okay with the prenup. I just had a hard time understanding, like, how do you make it fair when, like, you know, for the woman, like, there's always a chance of, like, I might have to leave my job because we're having kids or whatever it is. Like, it's like, especially if the man earns more than you or if he out earns you. Like, there comes a time where it doesn't even make sense for me to work because it's like, we're now paying more for our kids time and energy to be taken care of that, like, my job even makes the money for. And it's like, I do well enough, but that was my thing. It's like, you want me to give up my job where I can take care of myself, to take care of children, where now I'm also signing a prenup where I might get screwed over? And it's like, how does, like, I just don't know how you, like, get around that whole prenup conversation when it's like, the.

[Nick]

Well, you don't get around it. You can't get around it. You have to get through it.

[Jessica]

And so is that just my answer because we couldn't get through the conversation? That's right. But there is plenty of healthy ways to get through a prenup where.

[Nick]

Well, I guess my question back to the prenup. Did it really come down to him saying, it's my way or the highway? And you get absolutely nothing if we get divorced, Even if you quit your job and raise our children 10 years from now and 10 years from now, if I start a business three years from now and spend seven years investing in our family, and we have three kids and you don't work for seven years, you get absolutely nothing. And by nothing, I don't mean necessarily a percentage of the business, but how are you going to be taken care of and how are you going to be compensated for the time that you invested in his career and your family? Family.

[Jessica]

Well, and that's where it kind of got messy because there's no way to like, equitably figure that out, like dollar to dollar. Right? You just kind of like, yeah, but.

[Nick]

Some things are in good faith. I think good lawyers can work that out. You guys have to be willing to be fair. You know, you. It's not about holding a hard line. You're right. Like, how do you negotiate a percentage of a business that doesn't exist?

[Jessica]

Yeah, and I think that's where it came down to for me, where, like, I was just like, I can't. There's no actually fair. Fair doesn't exactly exist. I don't think it's ever, at the end of the day, going to be completely fair for either of us in a divorce. But, like, it just felt like there was no winning for me because it was like, you know, we were trying to negotiate alimony at that point, which was like, you can't really negotiate alimony, but at the same time, if I'm signing something on paper, he could just take longer to pay me anything because I signed my name on paper. So it was like, you know, he's like, well, I'll take care of you for this many years. Because the state that we live in, I don't think it's official. 50, 50. I think it's actually like more than 50, 50 states. So they're a little bit more towards like, you know, the amount of years you've been married, I think, are the amount of years that you maybe can be taken care of over a certain threshold.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

If that makes sense. And so for him, it felt like a bigger risk. So he was trying to negotiate it down from that, like a hundred percent to like, maybe like 30 of the time that we're married that I get taken care of or whatever. And trying to put this all in a prenup because his worry was that, like, he didn't want it to be in a situation where it's like, now we are divorced, he's taking me, and I'm now being lazy and not going out to find another job because I'm just being taken care of and like, living off the system, if you will.

[Nick]

What if you have Four kids, and he's too busy to be the primary caretaker. And so you're. You know, you're divorced. You have even two kids.

[Jessica]

His position was he thought he could be the primary caretaker, and that's what he was willing to take on if that was necessary.

[Nick]

How does he know that?

[Jessica]

I don't think he did. And that's where it was like. It was. It became a situation where there was, like, too many conditions. Like, how do you solve for every single one of them?

[Nick]

Yeah, listen, I mean, let me ask you this. Do you feel like you negotiated in good faith, or do you feel like there was a part of you that was kind of more like, you know what? I just don't even want to have this conversation. I kind of think it's bullshit that we're even discussing a prenup. And were you finding ways to say no to certain things that he wanted because the principle of it, or do you feel like it was more him saying, this is my way or the highway? And you were trying to negotiate in good faith, but what he was asking for was just, at the end of the day, your lawyer was advising you to be like, I wouldn't sign this.

[Jessica]

Yeah, it was kind of the second. Like, I think there was a part of me, like, kind of both, but more on the second side of things where I was just like, I. I'm trying to do everything I can to, like, make this work. And, like, everything you're saying is, like, you want to make it work, too. But then when we actually get into those conversations, it's almost like maybe at the end of the day, you're just too scared, and that's why you have to have this contract. And ultimately, that's gonna. That's what the contract came down to, because I think everybody, like, has this idea of a prenup that it's like, it's unromantic and that people are doing it that can't commit, and, like, that's what it's saying, and it. It takes the romance out of everything. But in his case. And maybe I don't think that has to be the case. Right, but in his case, it actually felt like he kind of like, in his deepest core, he couldn't commit, and that's why the prenup was there almost, and that's why he wouldn't negotiate with me.

[Nick]

Well, I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. Am I just, you know, you reading into something? I mean, I don't know. Do you even love him?

[Jessica]

I mean, I Definitely did.

[Nick]

What do you mean, did? I mean a decision to not move forward based off a prenup. When did you guys break up?

[Jessica]

We broke up in. In June.

[Nick]

Okay. Yeah. I mean, if I were completely in love with someone, wanted to marry them, and a prenup blew it up because we were too stubborn, it would be hard for me to, like, romantically move on that fast. I mean, if. If. If. If you don't think you love him anymore, then maybe that's your answer. I mean, who cares about the prenup?

[Jessica]

Well, I mean, I don't think I've, like, moved on necessarily.

[Nick]

Have you guys talked?

[Jessica]

Uh, we talked after the breakup. We talked for a little bit, and then we decided to. To, like, not talk for a time, which is an undefined time.

[Nick]

But do you feel like, how did. I mean, he hasn't fought for you, or you guys haven't fought for each other, or.

[Jessica]

No, there's been none of that.

[Nick]

And what do you think he would do if you called him up and said, I really miss you, and I hate, like, the fact that, like, we said we wanted to spend the rest of our lives together. It just. It seems crazy that it's come to this.

[Jessica]

Yeah. I mean, right now, it seems like he wouldn't want that. I mean, only because I haven't heard from him, I guess. I don't know, because I haven't taken that action. But I just assume if I haven't heard from you, that that's your decision.

[Nick]

I don't know. Is he a stubborn person?

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I mean, what do you think his version of the story is?

[Jessica]

Well, so that's where. Like, when we. When I broke up with him, he came back, and he was actually like, I feel like I did this wrong. Like, I feel like the prenup ruined everything, and if we should. We could take it away, and then everything would. Like, he's like, I see that all the issues started happening with us.

[Kelly]

Us.

[Jessica]

When the prenup was, like, more involved and when we were talking about it, and he's like, if we take the prenup away. So he was kind of, like, going after things, like, very, like, desperately. Like, well, let's just take the prenup away altogether.

[Nick]

What'd you say?

[Jessica]

Well, that's when I was like, I don't. I think in my head, I was like, I don't really believe you. Like, I've thought this for two years.

[Nick]

Thought what for two years?

[Jessica]

About the prenup. Like, I've known the prenup was going to Be here for two years. Because then I start thinking, like, river.

[Nick]

I'm like, see, that's where I'm not following you. Right. Again, when you get into the actual nitty gritty of the prenup, I hear you that some of the things you're communicating seem unreasonable from his end, and you both should be able to negotiate in good faith. And if your lawyer is like, listen, do what you want, but I wouldn't sign this. This is not a fair deal, and you are really screwing yourself over if you sign this. You are not protected with this prenup. So if you want to marry for love and nothing else, but this is crazy, then, like, yeah, like, that would have been foolish for you.

[Jessica]

Correct.

[Nick]

That being said, like, the idea of a prenup. The prenup that you knew he was going to ask for the. On your second date when eventually he. You got married. That. That idea of the prenup that annoyed you like, that. That part I don't get. Because again, that is, like, whether you have that conversation or not, everyone signs a marriage contract, a marriage license, right? And so knowing he said that on the first date and knowing that it was going to be something whenever he proposed to you and before you got married, that he was going to say, all right, well, there's no good time to bring this up, so, like, let's just get through it. But, like, now it's time to have that prenup conversation because, like, yeah, I love you, and I'm planning on having the best life with you possible, but, like, I can't decide five years from now whether you're going to wake up and choose me. You know, I want to buy a practice and build my own practice, and if, you know, if you do the unthinkable to me, I want to feel protected, you know? You know, like, he had a right to do that. And that shouldn't have been something that really bothered you. I. Is, in my opinion, you know, again, it's not fun. Like, you know, it's. It's. It's not fun. Yeah. Like, the first thing you don't want to do is talk about what happens, but it is the reality. Like, I don't think people in 2025 should get married without realizing that you can choose to leave me.

[Jessica]

Yeah. And I. And that's where I think it came down to ultimately, was, like, where he maybe saw our lives going, because it wasn't about, like, being protected because, like, I want to protect myself, too. And, like, I'm equally invested into that. But was more about like, you know, when I thought about like if I have kids and like the minute kids enter into the conversation, you're just like, I don't know. And especially if like I'm the one that's going to have to be the stay at home mom in this situation or if like my job is on the line because it makes more sense for our situation, then at that point I didn't know how to reconcile it anymore.

[Nick]

What does your lawyer advise?

[Jessica]

I mean she, we kind of played with all these things where it's like he would pay me like an allowance essentially or like even, even pay me to be a stay at home mom in a way if he's not sharing any equity with me. Right?

[Nick]

Yeah, I mean, that's correct. You know, and listen.

[Kelly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I could see a world where he's just like, you know, like, I can't predict the future of my business and I, I don't want a divorce to blow up my entire business, which can happen if the business isn't protected. And if he wants to protect his business, which I totally get, then yes, he. And, and, and, and you quit your job to raise the kids, then yes, he should pay. You should be earning money. You know, if you're going to have separate accounts, if he wants to keep it completely separate, then that's his choice. Right? Then yeah, that would be a reasonable solution.

[Jessica]

So my lawyer's fix to that was like, basically he has to pay you a salary for being a mom, essentially. And then he also has to provide you childcare. So two scenarios. If you're a mom, he pays you to mom. If you stay working, he has to promise you contractually, like part of the prenup, that you will have full time child care so that you don't have to sacrifice your job.

[Nick]

And you said no to that?

[Jessica]

And he said no? Well, he said no to the child care one. As far as like, well that was the confusing part too because he was like, well, do I have to pay for that? And I'm in my mind, I'm like, I don't know, maybe we could have shared like the percentage of the child care based on our income incomes and that would have been the fix to that. But as far as like the, the salary goes, it was like if he pays me my salary now so that I'm not losing equity. Right. And maybe that increases over time because like as, maybe I would get promotions over time or as his business grows over time, he could pay me more. That was the part that kind of broke because he was like, I don't know that I can even afford to pay you your salary.

[Nick]

And I mean, couldn't you guys negotiate to, like, renegotiate in a certain period of time? Time?

[Jessica]

We. Maybe. I. I think I tried that at one point, but ultimately, again, like, that was, like, too scary for him because he was like, I don't know if I can afford to do that. Because his. His goal was like, he's like, I just don't. I want to make sure that when we get a divorce, I'm at the.

[Nick]

Same when or if.

[Jessica]

Right? He's like, I want to make sure that I'm just, like, at the same place that I was like, I don't want to have to, like, have to sell my house or do all those things.

[Nick]

I mean, listen, the reality is a divorce is a very painful and costly experience, and there's no way to avoid that. The best you can do with a prenup is to try to mitigate some of the unfairness of a potential divorce. And the goal should be if you guys enter into a prenup, like, what do they say about any negotiation? Any successful negotiation? Both people feel like they had to give up more than they really wanted. Right? So both. No one should feel like they won. If one person's like, whew, great, then that was not a very good starting point to a marriage. So you, you know, and I doubt you guys did, but someone should have. I hope. I wish someone would have said to both of you, for this to be successful, you're both going to have to feel like you guys conceded something, something. And there is zero way for you guys to 100% guarantee that if you get divorced, it's not going to affect you guys financially, and there's not going to be consequences and pain points to this divorce. Like, that's impossible. And the only way to make it possible for one of you is for the other person to be completely fucked over.

[Jessica]

Yes. And that would have been me in this case. This person, I saw it, but he.

[Nick]

Saw it a different way. You know, like, it just. I'm. I'm getting the sense that you guys never really sat down as a couple to try to, like, to recognize what I just said and to acknowledge that, like, we're gonna both have to make up some considerations. And if the goal is for us as individuals to guarantee that if I get divorced, I have really no concerns, then that's not realistic, and you're both going to have to make some kind of concessions. It doesn't Sound like you guys had that conversation as a couple.

[Jessica]

And I. I think we did in a shallow sense, but not in the deeper sense of, like, it needs to be.

[Nick]

Needs to be. In a direct sense. It needs to, like, those words need to be spoken, broken to each other, and you gotta, like, look in each other in the eye and. And recognize that while simultaneously reassuring each other. It's like, hey, I know this is messy, and I know this is not fun, but I really love you. And let's falsely take a moment to talk about, like, all the things that we're going to do to protect this relationship. Like, I want to wake up and choose you every day. I want to be your partner. You know it. In this process of this negotiation, what you guys showed a glimpse of is how you guys would be in this divorce, which is both kind of really stubborn and only thinking of yourselves.

[Jessica]

Yeah. And I think, like I said, I think I. I was just at the end of everything. I think I was just put. I felt like I was, like, pushed into a corner where, like, I had tried to come. Come up with the ways that we could make it fair as we could. And, like, every idea that I came up with was just not compatible with his ideas. And eventually, I just kind of, like, was like, okay, like, I am out of ideas. And, like, we can't seem to compromise on this. And, like, maybe that's just the answer over this particular prenup and marriage that. That, like, we're just not compromising, sadly.

[Nick]

Like, because, I mean, you broke up with him, so sadly, you. He's probably feeling validated that he drew the line that he did.

[Jessica]

Yeah, maybe. But I. At the same time, I'm feeling validated that I also drew the line, probably.

[Nick]

Yeah. Because again, like, what you guys gave a glimpse is as to how you guys would be in a divorce, which is, like, uncompromising.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And only worrying about yourselves.

[Jessica]

And I guess my ultimate question going forward, too, is, like, I feel like I'm not. This isn't my last time. I'm gonna maybe run into a prenup. But is it just, like. I just am. I'm like, where do. I don't feel like I hear enough about how it actually, like, works out for people and how they functionally have those conversations. Like, it just seems like nobody talks about this kind of thing.

[Nick]

Yeah. No, it's. It's tough, and I don't have all the answers. I think you guys didn't talk enough about what concessions you were both willing to make. Yeah.

[Jessica]

I honestly wish More people would come on your podcast and tell everybody how they made it work, because that would be helpful for all of us.

[Nick]

Well, I can tell you, like, they make it work because instead of worrying about what I, I, I want this and I need this. I need to make sure I'm protected about this. You guys didn't talk about what you were willing to give up. And he made the mistake of trying to guarantee himself that, you know, it's like, well, I can't afford. How does he know what he can and can't afford? You know, how do you know what you're going to want or need? You know? And like, you guys went too far, it sounds like, in trying to guarantee yourselves absolute security when that was never gonna happen.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, your goal should have been protecting each other from allowing future, both of you from fucking the other person over.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And that should have been the baseline. And the baseline wasn't you guys not fucking each other over. The baseline for both of you was guaranteed being yourself, that you were going to be in the best possible situation even if you got divorced.

[Jessica]

And that was definitely what it turned into. I mean, I even, I will say, like, to give myself some credit because, like, I own a home and I, I even had convert, like, in his buying a practice type of conversations, I was like, well, I would love to be able to sell my home and put that money towards, like, helping you grow your business, but I would never do that because you don't want me to be a part of. Part of it. So, like, I would never sacrifice something like that for you because you don't want me to be a part of it.

[Nick]

And what was his response to that?

[Jessica]

To him, it was just like, well, yeah, like, clearly we can't do that.

[Nick]

Because then, yeah, basically, like, I'm not asking for that. I mean, listen, for a guy, listen, I, I get his point of view on the business standpoint, right? Because, like, he doesn't know the business doesn't even exist yet. And even if it did, like, it's one thing to talk about money and how much I might owe you, and I would owe you a percentage of how much I'm, you know, because you're right. It's hard to come up with a dollar amount because, like, $10,000 a month could be nothing to him by the time you get divorced. And it could be everything to him, you know, so it probably should have been a percentage based off of, like, yeah, you know, again, I'm not a lawyer, so there's a lot of Things I might not be considering, but he was trying to protect his business from basically going belly up because his life left him for another man.

[Kelly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, no.

[Jessica]

And true. I think that's. Ultimately, it just came down to, like, I just don't think we could compromise. Which honestly validates me because there's always the question of, like, oh, well, if you could go back and do it over, or if you could have fixed it or whatever. And I feel like I'm like, I don't know that we could have, like, I don't think our relationship, like, if he were to come back into the picture, let's say. Or I would reach out to him. Like, I don't. It didn't seem like it was ever going to go down the path of making it work. Just, like, summing this all up and talking through it. I'm just.

[Nick]

Well, it sounds like maybe that's your answer. I mean, but.

[Jessica]

But I. I guess I want to say it's like, I didn't. I didn't ever have the belief that prenups wouldn't work. I went into this knowing that they. They were a thing that people did, and they were okay. And they. There's some tough statistics. Statistics that they actually, like, save marriages.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

But I'm also just, like. My own experience was like, man, how do people make this work? Because it seems like the conversation is always just about, like, who's gonna be okay, and it's the other. You know, at that point when you're having that conversation, it's like, well, whoever is on, you know, like, I want to be okay, and then they're on the other side of the table being like, well, I want to be okay.

[Nick]

Well, that's again, the problem. I think you guys both made. You should have been thinking about him, and he should have been thinking about you.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And assuming you don't get back together with this guy and you meet someone else, and hopefully you're in a position to want a prenup or he presents a prenup. I hope that next time you're. I want to protect myself from getting over, but I also want to make sure that I'm being fair to you. You. With the understanding that if we get divorced, it's going to fucking suck for both of us, both emotionally and financially. And there is no way to avoid that, even with a prenup. And so I want to make sure that if I were you in this situation, I would. You know, you should have both wanted to sign the prenup if you were the other person, and that was. It doesn't sound like in either of your thought processes.

[Jessica]

Yeah, I mean, I think there's some nuance to that. Like, I think.

[Nick]

I'm sure. I'm sure there is, but.

[Jessica]

Yeah, but I mean, ultimately, nuance. We'll just say that, yeah, we're just two people that couldn't compromise. Because it sounds like, from what you're telling me, that it's like it should be a healthy conversation, and a lot of couples make it that way, and it's available to couples to make it that way, but we were just comes.

[Nick]

Down to who the individuals are in that relationship. Yeah, of course it's possible, and it's not fun ever. And there's always a little bit of ickiness to it, but it needs to be in good faith.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You both should try to want to make. Get through it, and you both should be willing to concede things that.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, it's like, okay, I guess we get divorced. I guess. I guess I'll have to do that. But.

[Jessica]

And ultimately, I mean, I guess I had the feeling that he wasn't doing it in good faith because it just seemed very selfish to me. And I, like, without even knowing how he thought my side was or how he thought I was.

[Nick]

The fact that you don't know that answer, I think, is telling that I.

[Jessica]

Don'T know the answer about how he was thinking about me.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, you guys. Yeah. Like, yeah.

[Jessica]

And I. And I don't, like, I don't. When I was fighting back with him, I don't know if he was, like, thinking of me of, like, just trying to do what I could or protect myself or if he was thinking of, like, me being, like, also a selfish person and, like, wanting to screw him over. I don't. I actually don't know who he saw me as in those conversations.

[Nick]

I think that's something you should consider.

[Kelly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Because that was your responsibility to ask and. And it was his responsibility. If he can't answer that question for you, then that's something he was responsible for. Yeah.

[Jessica]

So. But ultimately, I don't know that we'll ever return to that conversations necessarily, but.

[Nick]

Well, you broke up with him, so my guess is. And again, like, he. He could always fight for you, and you could always fight for him. And. And maybe, again, like I said before, maybe that's your answer. Because, like, hey, if you're. I mean, you know, if. If it's after two months, you're saying I was in love with them, I Don't know. Maybe if you're not in love with them anymore, then maybe there's something deeper going on. And if you're not sure, then maybe that's your answer. If you're just being stubborn and you're sitting on your couch waiting for him to, like, fight for you while he's sitting there waiting for the same thing, then, you know that, in some ways, makes me sad for both of you.

[Jessica]

That would be sad if that was the case.

[Nick]

And, you know, like, listen, like, there's a lot of stubborn people out there there, and someone's got to make the first move. And if I were you, I wouldn't. And again, how you. You got to figure out how you feel about him. But if you. If there's a party that still loves him and still thinks that, like, boy, I had a. He's a great man. And, like, I loved our relationship. Prenup aside, I loved our relationship, and I loved him. You guys have a lot of things unsaid and unresolved and unfigured out. Out. And that makes me sad for the both of you.

[Jessica]

And it's interesting you say that, because, like, I don't know. Maybe in my head, it wasn't as much of a mystery. Like, to me, I'm like, well, the fact that he needed to protect himself so hard was, like, his answer that he, like, couldn't commit, truly.

[Nick]

Well, the more in these negotiations, the problem is, the more you guys dig your heels into your point of view, the more you get afraid that the person is going to. To, you know, fulfill your worst enemy. Like, you both dug, and you both did that to each other. You both played into your. Each other's fears by digging your heels in and not saying, oh, timeout. Hold on. I don't. You know, like, I just. What is our goal here?

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And you guys didn't have that conversation. It makes me sad. Yeah.

[Jessica]

And maybe it is that sad. I don't know. And these are maybe questions I don't have, but I. I think I ultimately made my choice, and, you know, I'm. I'm moving forward with it, but I did. Yeah. I guess I thought the conversation was, like, I don't know. I think they. We did leave some stuff unresolved, I guess, is what I'm saying. But ultimately, I'm like. I just. That's where I'm like, these prenup conversations, I just. I don't. I was just maybe looking for advice on how I should. Could handle them in the future, too.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, My. My. My short. Very. My short answer is put yourself in their shoes and both be willing to do that and not try to win the negotiation.

[Jessica]

Yeah. And I think my perception of it was like, you know, because he had that. That. That condition our entire relationship, I always felt like I was fighting against it and like, without going into, like, all of the other nuances about our relationship, because obviously that u. Like, says who the person is you're marrying. Right. Not necessarily the prenup, but.

[Nick]

Well, that part. I guess I'm not really following or agree with you this, like, the fact that he always knew he wanted it. I don't. I don't. That just means he's probably maybe a slightly more pragmatic person than you are and always had a dream of having his own practice and knowing that he wanted to get married someday. Maybe he got advice from an uncle or a mentor and who. Who told him, like, you're gonna want this and here's why, and blah, blah, blah. And maybe as a young man, he didn't articulate it the best possible way.

[Jessica]

Y. Yeah.

[Nick]

But the fact. The fact that he always wanted one.

[Catherine]

You.

[Nick]

You keep. You've brought that up several times, and it sounds like, for whatever reason, you've. You've always seen that as a strike against him. And that. I don't. That I don't get.

[Jessica]

I don't think so. I think for me, it was just like, I was fine with it the whole time. I. I think, to me, I felt like the trial prenup for him, like, I'm, like, the first one he tried it with. And it's like, you know, maybe it was like, a fail with me. Like, he did it the wrong way. And, like, it's honestly a learning experience for him going forward into one and, like, figuring it out to do it better. Because, like, I wasn't against the prenup. I just wasn't. Like, I didn't actually know the conditions until, like, we were engaged. And so totally, you know, it's a negotiate.

[Nick]

It's. The shitty part is it's a negotiation and you. It's a weird feeling to feel like you're negotiating in the manner, you know.

[Jessica]

But so I, like. I guess what I'm saying is, like, I didn't get into the details of, like, everything that was involved in our relationship. Relationship, but I just was more, like, very interested in, like, how do people have these conversations? And, like, how did we have it?

[Nick]

Yeah, listen, these are tough situations. My humble opinion is that every couple should. I think to your Point, there probably are studies. I. I see why there are. I'm not shocked to hear you mention that there are studies out there that suggest that couples who successfully navigate a pretty prenub maybe have a slightly higher marriage rate. One, because, again, every marriage essentially is a prenup. And two, more than anything, it's their first test on being able to work through and compromise on sensitive and difficult topics. And if forgetting about how any one other couple navigates this right, all you can do is ask yourself, what could I have done differently or better? And how could have I empathized with his point of view more? Now, maybe you did everything you could, and it was all his fault, and he was just like, a rigid prick, and you realize that this is a guy who didn't really want a wife or a partner. He just wanted someone to raise his kids so he can make his money. If that's how you felt, then maybe you're much better off. But these are very difficult and very hard conversations to have with someone that can reveal the stubbornness of both people. And if you are not putting yourself in their shoes and asking yourself and being able to relate to their concerns and being willing to, like, you know, then. Then that's. That's a. It's a data point and something that. To learn from.

[Jessica]

Yeah. And, I mean, again, I think if I really explain the whole story in detail, I feel like I really tried to, like, understand it from his angle. Like, me even, like, saying, like, hey, I'm willing to put equity into your business to help you out, or, like, I really did want to be his partner. I just don't think that he. Maybe it was capable of being mine, or maybe that was just, like, too much of a fear for him. And. And I totally get. I totally get all that, and I. I get all of the fears around us, and I. And that's why I think prenups are great. I think my struggle with this particular situation was just, like, maybe there wasn't a fair for our situation, and maybe we were just too incompatible to find a fair for. I don't know. And maybe it was just, like, ultimately it was the good thing that broke up the relationship because that was just. It wasn't good. And so because we couldn't get through that conversation situation, it meant that we weren't gonna get through the marriage.

[Nick]

It's possible. Yeah. Only you two know.

[Jessica]

Yeah. And I think that's how I took it at the end of the day. And that's why I broke up with him, was because that's what I. That was the decision I had kind of come up to. And of course, you go back and forth from that, and you're like, did I make the right choice? But. And that's why, you know, with the prenup in question, I'm like, did I make the right choice to blow up my engagement over a prenup? But for me, I'm like, the fact that we couldn't come to a compromise after, you know. You know, as two years of knowing about a prenup and then six months of talking about the details of that and then not making it work, to me, that just was the answer.

[Nick]

I am curious. Other than offering putting up your house for a piece of his business, what other compromises do you feel like you made in this negotiation?

[Jessica]

I mean, I think I. I offer, you know, because I was like, well, well, to me, I was like, okay, you want. You maybe have the ideal to have like a stay at home mom. And to me, I'm like, well, you know, you want me to have maybe more kids than like, basically what I was saying is like, well, I could keep working and then I could be like the career girl, you could be the career guy, and then I don't have to worry about relying on you. You don't have to worry about me relying on you. But then to me, that just means we can't have as big of a family as you might like to try for. Because. Because the chances of that maybe.

[Nick]

What did you want in terms of family size?

[Jessica]

I mean, for me, I think I was very much like, I want what works for us. Like, you know, if you're so. If you're so insecure about, like, your life and like, being me being dependent on you. To me, it's like, well, in my mind, the more kids I have, the more likely I'm gonna have to be a stay at home mom. And then I will rely on you. Does that make sense?

[Nick]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jessica]

So my fix to that was like, why don't we both work?

[Kelly]

And.

[Jessica]

And then you don't have to worry about my dependency as much.

[Nick]

So you guys were already negotiating whether you would work or not work ten years from now or five years from now.

[Jessica]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nick]

Because of it sounds like you guys gotten too much into the weeds, in my opinion.

[Jessica]

Well, and that's where it's, like, hard. Cause it's like a prenup. That's where it's like, it's either so conditional and you have all these details, or it's really kind of like what's yours is yours, mine is mine. And then you go forward. I don't know. And that's where it got really complicated. Cause it's like, the more conditional you make it, the more more complicated it gets in the detailing of, okay, well, how much time and how much money and blah, blah, blah.

[Nick]

To me, it's like, my very humble opinion. I think prenups can be really smart things for both people to do. But, yes, when you start trying to predict the future and address every possible outcome and possibility, that's impossible. And therefore, it's going to be impossible for both people to land on a solution. Because you're arguing about things you know nothing about. And so your goal is to make the other person feel generally safe and reduce the risk of the other person being fucked over or screwed over. Your goal should have been, if we get divorced and he has a practice, I don't want that business to have to crumble. That honestly, should have been really your only concern. His concern should have been, if we get divorced. I don't want her to. Especially if she, you know, I don't know if she's going to work. I don't know if she's not going to work. I don't want her to be, like, left high and dry, especially if she's the mother of my children who is incapable because, you know, maybe 10 years later, she's given up on her career and her dream and she. And she's, you know, it's 10 years of career building and yada, yada, yada, and she's going to be, you know, starting from scratch, and that's going to be very difficult for her. And if that is the case, I want to make sure she is taken care of and that she can have a good quality of life. And that should have been both of your goals. And neither of you seem to have the goal of making sure the other person was okay. You both had the goal of making sure that you. You were okay. And I. It sounds like to me that's the mistake you both made.

[Jessica]

Well, except for the thing with, like, if he had the practice and he was making the money, then it sounds like he was on the side of, like, more likely he would have been okay where. If I was on the side of, like, well, I haven't been working. It's been 10 years, and I don't have anything to fall back.

[Nick]

Well, okay if. Yeah, okay. In the sense that, you know, if you were getting nothing, you know, but again, like, you should have been fairly compensated. Compensated you know?

[Jessica]

Yeah, well, that's. I think the part that we broke, the part we couldn't figure out, was how to equitize my side of things, which is like, how do you amount that into some sum of. Like, you've been out of the workforce for 10 years. What's your potential of getting back into the workforce? Those things was what. That was the problem we couldn't solve. Like, sure, sure. His side. He owns a practice maybe, or he doesn't own a practice. He's just working regularly, regular salary. He has that side figured out of what he's going to do. Do. For me, it was like, what. How can we. We sum up all. Everything that I'm missing and put that into, like, how are we gonna make that fair? So that was the part that broke, I think, in my mind, because again, if he's keeping everything, great, but, like, how do we sum up everything that I'm missing in that?

[Nick]

So neither of you were gonna. Should have been keeping everything, so to speak. Right?

[Jessica]

Yeah. And I think that's where you guys.

[Nick]

Were negotiating, writing hypotheticals.

[Jessica]

Right. And that's where. I'm glad you. Because that's where I came down to, too. I was like, there's just, like, no way to figure out a future that, like, doesn't exist. And I just feel. I felt like I was with a person that, like, couldn't get out of the way of, like, trying to figure out all those details for something that, like, it honestly would have been easier if it was somebody that, like, had already, like, built up that business.

[Nick]

And, like, that was definitely would have been easier.

[Jessica]

Yeah, it would have been easier, but I think because it was like, all hypotheticals of what our future might look like, that's what was just, like, impossible for me to know how to help make that fair, even. Especially if he's sitting on this seat of, like, no, my future will look like this, but who knows? And then I'm trying to, like, match that future anyways. So that's where I think in the future, maybe it would just be easier with somebody who already There, they have a prenup, because it already is. Like, they're trying to protect that thing.

[Nick]

Sure. But, yeah, you don't know who you're gonna fall in love with. So. No.

[Jessica]

But I guess. I don't know. I feel like you've maybe just validated me in my decision that we were two people that weren't gonna figure it out. I don't know.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, yeah. It's the fact that you're not. You don't seem all that heartbroken anymore is my big takeaway.

[Jessica]

I think maybe I'm being more. More pragmatic about it now. Like, I was. I was pretty heartbroken about it. I just think, to me, it's like, I don't know that I have a choice but to not. Like, he's come back into the picture anyways. Right. But, like, to me, I'm like, I don't have a choice to be in that situation. Like, I just felt like it was like you were either going to be, like, miserable being married because you had this prenup looming over your head that you didn't know if you were ever going to be okay, or, you know, you go back.

[Nick]

Well, that's the thing again, no prenup is successful if one person feels like after they say sign it, they have less clarity than. More clarity. And that should have bothered both of.

[Jessica]

You, and that's how I would have felt if I signed it. So to me, I'm just, like, sitting in a place now where it's like, I honestly have more answers now than I did signing a prenup, marrying him.

[Nick]

In a way, I guess I'm just wondering, like, why after you broke up with him, and he was like, I fucked up and blah, blah, blah. And to me, that sounds like a guy who had the best intentions, but just maybe he handled it poorly because he's never done this before and didn't know how to do it. And. And yeah, my read is you both made a lot of mistakes in this negotiation.

[Jessica]

And I. Yeah, I agree, but I. At the same time, like, I very much still feel like he is not in a place for negotiating further, like, so either. Like, maybe he feels I'm that way. But the way I. I see it now out of, like, I don't know, I don't get the sense that he's open to more negotiation. So that's why I'm. I mean, that's why we're not negotiating. It's like, I don't think that he's. And whether I am or not, I don't. I don't get the impression that he is.

[Nick]

Well, I guess because it's more to, like, do we. I don't know. It's like, do we love each other? I mean, I don't. Like.

[Jessica]

Yeah, you know, I have a lot of. I have a lot of love for him, for sure, but I think the whole. Whole end of everything and how it happened opened my eyes to. And I can't say I Don't love him. Like, I definitely love him, and I have love for him for sure. I just, you know, I, all, at the same time, I just don't think we were gonna come to. I just didn't see a way to compromise.

[Nick]

Okay, well, I'm sorry it happened. It sucks.

[Catherine]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

But I did, like, I did wanna, like. Yeah. And it, and that was the confusing thing. It was like, it wasn't about the prenup. I was really just kind of shocked when we got into the conversations. I was like, like, is this the way it goes every time? Because, like, I thought that it would have. I thought it was going to be better than it was. Like, I thought I was being this, like, progressive millennial about the whole thing. And then it just, like, blew up in my face, and I was like, oh, like, is this how it is every time? But I really don't want it to be that way.

[Nick]

Yeah, I mean, I hear you. It's hard. Again, I, I, I wasn't there. You know, I wasn't part of the negotiation. So from what I'm hearing, I think, again, you both made mistakes. So if, assuming you don't get back together with this guy, I would focus on trying to figure out the mistakes you made. I'm hearing a little bit of resistance from you, from being willing to do that. And I get it, because right now it's still pretty raw. And you made a very difficult decision, and you don't want to second guess your decision. Decision. If I'm you, I'm this the type of person who. This would be a moment to take my ego out of it, take my pro out of it, Ask myself, did I do everything I could because these relationships are hard to find. And if I'm willing to walk away, I wouldn't want to be left with any regrets. If you, as long as you have no regrets, then move forward and, and, and, and just accept that, like, maybe this was a blessing in disguise, but what could I have done different, differently, to make him feel. You guys triggered each other. You guys played into your fears. You guys started, like, becoming the person. You started seeing what the other person would look like in divorce proceedings. And that's never fun. There wasn't, like, it doesn't sound like there was a, wasn't a constant reminder of how you guys wanted to be as a couple, as a marriage, how you guys wanted to be as a team, how you guys wanted to support each other. If I'm you next time, time you have these conversations, you need to have as many of those conversations while having those. Because, like, the whole idea of a prenup investigation is to focus on disconnect, and you guys weren't doing enough connecting during these very difficult conversations.

[Jessica]

Yeah. And again, not being able to go back and rehab those, at least the way that they did, you know? And I. I wish I knew if we were just like. I wish I knew the answer. If we were just two incompatible people or if we didn't do it the right.

[Nick]

You know, And I. I feel confident saying you guys didn't do it the right way. It still means that you might not be compatible. But only hearing your side, I'm pretty sure you guys could have done it a lot better than you did.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And, I mean, that makes me sad for both of you.

[Jessica]

I actually would hope that that's the case too, because I hope that, like, the whole relationship was real and that it meant something and then gives a.

[Nick]

Shit what your relationship meant if you don't end up together. Who cares? I mean, look, listen, if you're. If you guys don't end up together, all you can do is learn from the experience and hope that, like, there's no meaning behind it. Like, I don't. Like, no offense to all my exes, it didn't mean anything other than what I learned from it. Like, our love or how strong it was or wasn't is mean anything. It's stupid. You know, I learned a lot from those experiences. I am grateful for those lessons and the roles those women played in my lives. And they're great people, and I'm glad that they're happy, but I don't know anything about their lives. They. They're. They're literally meaningless to me other than the lessons I've learned. So it doesn't matter what it meant, you know? All that matters is you learn something.

[Jessica]

Well, and I think I learned a lot for sure.

[Nick]

Okay. I'd be willing to learn more.

[Jessica]

I always wanted to learn more, but. Yeah, I just. Well, I think. I don't know. I don't know if I got exactly the answer I came in. It all got.

[Nick]

What was the. What were you hoping to get out of. Out of this?

[Jessica]

I don't know. It kind of sucked because when I. I, you know, it's a bit. A little bit past as far as when the situation was happening. Like, we got past. Like, we're actually broken up now. But so I. You know, it's a little different than when the situation or when the question.

[Nick]

Was, what's the harm in reaching out to him?

[Jessica]

I got the impression he didn't want that. I'm like, I'm not by any means, like, waiting for him to reach out. Like, that's not really, like, the point. I guess it's like, my point was just maybe figuring out, how could we have done this better? It's not, like, waiting for him to come around and, like.

[Nick]

No, I know that. It's like, what's the harm in just, like, meeting up with them and just seeing how you guys feel about each other?

[Jessica]

There's probably no harm.

[Nick]

Maybe it's worth a shot. I don't know.

[Jessica]

Maybe. But, yeah, I don't know. I guess that the forward is a mystery.

[Nick]

But I would leave you with this. I've said this a million times. I would ask yourself, do I want to be right or do I want to be happy? And again, I think you want to feel good about your decision. It was a difficult decision. I get it. But I feel like your energy is more in the wanting to be right rather than wanting to be happy right now. And I would right now focus on your happiness and being willing to acknowledge that maybe you were wrong about a couple things. There's no harm in it. No harm.

[Jessica]

There's no harm in being wrong.

[Nick]

Yeah. All right, well, sorry you're going through this. It definitely sucks. I appreciate the call. Give him a call. I don't know. I'd rather you just be. Feel. I want you to feel good about this decision. Truly feel good. I don't want you to convince yourself. Yourself?

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Nick]

That you made the right call. And I feel like you're doing a lot of that right now.

[Jessica]

Well, that's crazy. I don't know. I. I don't know that that's how I meant to come across. But if that's. It's an interesting takeaway that I did come across that way, but I don't know that's how I meant it. I think I was just.

[Nick]

It really doesn't matter what I think. You know what I'm saying? So I just. I want. I want you to be happy. I want you.

[Jessica]

I think I. I wanted to come to this discussion of, like, you know, prenups were very, like, new thing to me, and I'm like, more of just like, how do people get through these things? Because I don't think it's the last time I'm going to face it, which is fine. And I want to face it again. I just want to face it again with the right person.

[Nick]

Compromise, understanding, empathy, putting yourself in their shoes and going into Those negotiations with upfront expectations and saying, hey, we're going about to do this. You know, I heard a story, and I'll leave you with this, and we got to go. But, like, I'm a big football fan, right? There's a very intimate relationship often between coach and quarterback, arguably the two most important people on a football team. And The San Francisco 49ers quarterback is a man named Brock Purdy, who's very good, but, like, you know, a lot of discourse about how good he can be or is or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's had a lot of success recently in his rookie contract, and he was entering in his negotiations for his next big contract. Right. Lots of money on the line when it comes to quarterbacks. Teams like huge commitments. You know, hundreds of millions of dollars are on the line. And The San Francisco 49ers coach brought in the quarterback and said, before these negotiations start between our front office and your agents and your team, I want you to know that you're my guy, I believe in you, and we're going to do great things together. Because when negotiations start, your team is going to say a bunch of shit about the 49ers, and our front office is going to nitpick about what you're not good at and why you don't deserve the money your team is asking for, and it might get messy. And I want you to hear it from me that, like, we're in this together and I love you, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that was something that I think was really cool to hear and really smart, and I don't know how often that happens. And if you're asking for, like, what's one bit of advice to. To next time this happens is I don't think you two had that conversation. I don't think you two sat down and looked each other in the eye and said, okay, we're about to start this very thing. But, like, I love you and I want to be with you, and I want a family with you, and I want to build something special together, and I want to be a team. And you guys both said that to each other. And, like, we're going about to have some difficult conversations, and we're going to do it the right way by getting lawyers who are going to represent us as individuals and have our individual interest in mine. But, like, I want us to hear it from each other that we're a team, and you guys didn't do that, and you should have.

[Jessica]

Yeah, those conversations definitely weren't had under that light, whether or not we tried, they did not go that way.

[Nick]

And that's, I think, something you both need to own. It's not any other person's fault.

[Jessica]

Well, here I'm owning it. I don't know if he is, but I maybe.

[Nick]

How does he know. Know that? Yeah, I don't know that. And that's why I'm just wondering if maybe a call. The worst thing can happen is you can say, I don't want to hear a few you, you know, you could, and then that would just validate your decision. But.

[Jessica]

Well, if I ever do a call, I'll follow up and let you know.

[Nick]

I appreciate it. All right, well, take care.

[Jessica]

Okay, thank you.

[Nick]

Bye. Bye.

[Jessica]

Bye.

[Host]

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[Jessica]

And be sure to select our show.

[Host]

In the drop down menu that follows.

[Jessica]

Okay.

[Host]

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[Jessica]

Obviously we know him.

[Host]

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[Nick]

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[Kelly]

Hi Nick, My name is Kelly, I'm 32 and my polyamorous friend is having a baby and I'm wondering if I need to talk to her about her husband.

[Nick]

Why would you need to talk to her about her husband?

[Kelly]

So in the past I have like sort of removed myself from the polyamory aspect. Like it's not my lifestyle. And so I don't pretend to understand it or we've had lots of conversations about it. She's really open about talking about it, but he has just crossed a ton of boundaries that they've set in the past many years. Like literally since they've been together, he's kind of always been crossing boundaries with her.

[Nick]

What boundaries are you referring to? Like how he is with other women and his faithfulness or flirting, etc. Etc.

[Kelly]

Yeah. So like, when they were not poly. Polyamorous. He cheated on her and she found out, like, not because he was forthcoming. And then when they decided to be polyamorous, they have these boundaries that are like, if you're uncomfortable with someone that I'm talking to or polari.

[Nick]

I mean, I'm not. Do they have an open relationship or. They're polyamorous.

[Kelly]

They're polyamorous.

[Nick]

And what's the definition of polyamorous? Do you know?

[Kelly]

Yeah. So like, they are married, but. So they're each other's like, primary partner. But they, they're both allowed to like, date, have long term relationships, like emotional connection, sex, everything with other people as well. And they.

[Nick]

How is that different than an open relationship? I thought polyamorous was like a, like, like a throuple or three people or.

[Kelly]

I guess I don't know if I can explain open versus poly. To me, poly is like. So there's some. There's something that they want to do that's called kitchen table poly, where they can like all have dinner with. With themselves and their partners at a dinner table. And they're all sort of like a family.

[Nick]

All right, let me google it. Let me google it.

[Kelly]

Okay.

[Nick]

I am honestly curious. It doesn't sound like either of us really know. Polyamorous describes the practice of having or desiring to have multiple romantic or loving relationships simultaneously with the informed consent of all partners. Sounds like an open relationship. Okay. Anyways, so she's pregnant with his kid.

[Kelly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Are we sure about that?

[Kelly]

I mean, I don't think there's like a paternity test.

[Nick]

But is it impossible that it's not.

[Kelly]

It's not impossible. I guess I sort of am like, under the assumption that she took some precautions while they were trying. But I haven't like, directly asked why.

[Nick]

Do you know stuff about him that she wouldn't?

[Kelly]

What do you mean?

[Nick]

Well, you're asking. I'm wondering if I should talk to her. Her about her husband and his actions. And so that's implying that like, you know something or saw something. That she's not aware of.

[Kelly]

Oh no, no, no. So not exactly so more I'm like, generally I stay out of the relationship. I've heard these things through the grapevine that she has that she knows. So like she knows he cheated. She knows that he has crossed boundaries in their relationship. Like they're always quote unquote working on something. Like she'll explicitly ask him, like, hey, this person that you're talking, talking to gives me anxiety, makes me uncomfortable. I don't want you to pursue them. And he'll be like, yeah, yeah, totally. And then turn around and like sleep with them. And then she finds out about it because she like sees his texts and so like to me that's like betrayal of trust. Like whether or not.

[Nick]

So even though they have a pal, he's not upfront. I mean it sounds like it's an he cheated on her. And I don't know how they address that, but somehow he was able to con. Does she want to be in. Does she sleep with other men? Does she take advantage of their relationship? Relationship?

[Kelly]

She does. So like she had a long term boyfriend for a little bit while they like a two year relationship with a guy that ended amicably last year and then she'll date people. I, I mean I, my impression is kind of that if her husband was like, hey, actually like let's close the relationship for a little bit, let's be monogamous, that she would be like, okay, like I don't think she's the driver.

[Nick]

So while she is now pregnant, he is out there just.

[Kelly]

Yeah, so he has a girlfriend. He has a long term girlfriend that he's had for like three years. And my friend knows this girlfriend. They get along. She has asked, my friend has asked her husband like, hey, can you not see her as much? I'm feeling like I need a lot of support right now. Like she did not feel well in her first trimester, etc, and he was like, yeah, yeah, totally. And then lies to her being like, oh, I forgot I made plans with her tonight. I don't want to bail on her last minute so I'm going to go. Basically lying that he has peeled back any time with her. And I guess it's just like he's really manipulative. Like he's really able to make my friend feel like her feelings are, you know, not valid. That she needs to work on something in order to like be okay with the situation.

[Nick]

So what are you debating to do?

[Kelly]

I just think, think that it's crazy. Like I have a Daughter postpartum was really hard for me. Being pregnant was really hard for me. I have a crazy supportive partner, and it was still so hard. So I'm, like, very alarmed that he's acting like this when she's carrying his baby, for all we know, but, like, you know, assuming that she's carrying his baby, like, if you can't be honest and supportive and curb your behavior for the betterment of the mother of your child, like, I feel like it's like, Loki a lost cause.

[Nick]

Yeah, but she's not asking, right?

[Kelly]

I'm assuming she's not. And part of the issue is that some of this I've heard from other friends. So, like, she tells me kind of sometimes in these vague terms, like, you know, things were kind of rough, like, a few weeks ago, but we're really working on it now. And, like, I'm feeling better, but this just, like, keeps happening. And I just feel like he's proven to her time and time again, again, like, that he can't keep a boundary. Like, he can't honor a boundary that she set.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, you're in a tough spot. I recognize and totally get why you want to be a protective friend and there for your friend, but there's only so much you can do. I think the most you can do is validate her feelings when she asks. You can check in. And that's a very fine line between checking in and being nosy when she does ask you questions. I think it's definitely okay to, like, validate her, you know, like, if he has the ability to manipulate her or make her second guess herself or gaslight her in any way. Certainly as a friend, when she asks, you can reaffirm any doubt in terms of, like, what she is entitled to ask for and be by her side. But I think it's a little risky and honestly, really not your place to, like, call her up, sit her down, and say, I think your husband's up to. No. Like, you could be just causing more stress for her at a time where you don't want to be causing any stress while she has this baby.

[Catherine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And especially while she's pregnant. I don't think this is the time to make her question whether she should reconsider being married to this guy or things like that. Again, if she comes to you and says, I need your help and I want to ask your advice, by all means. You know, I'd be very careful about the whole, like, well, I heard from other people type of thing.

[Kelly]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nick]

It's never received well, and it always. It just makes that person feel like people are talking behind their back.

[Kelly]

Right.

[Nick]

Yeah. I would ask questions like, are you getting the emotional support you need from him?

[Kelly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, this is a really important time. You should make sure that you're getting that. That from him. And you have every right to like, ask for more.

[Kelly]

Right.

[Nick]

You know, and things like that. It sounds like your friend again, like, got convinced to being, you know, but she had a boyfriend. I don't know. Maybe it's working for her.

[Kelly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I don't know how people in open relationships who have children together make that work. I mean, seems a lot easier for people who don't want to have kids. I can wrap my head around people having open relations relationships. The polyamorous, where it's like this aunt, I have a boyfriend.

[Kelly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And a wife seems. I don't know, seems like way too much work for me.

[Kelly]

Yeah, I agree.

[Nick]

Teach their own.

[Kelly]

They're also like, kind of almost like over therapized in a way. Like, they're always in individual therapy. They're always in couples therapy. And like, and it's almost like to the point that. And I'm like a therapy person. Like, I'm. I've been in therapy for years. Like me and my husband are in couples therapy. Like, like. But it's like he's now utilizing these like, therapy phrases to like, like he calls lying psychological splitting, which, like, I. I mean.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Kelly]

I don't know.

[Nick]

But again, like, you're, you know, that's. You're. You're crossing a line of involving yourself.

[Kelly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

In their relationship. And you might be right. But like, it's, it's, you know, also, it just could be a friend who's just chosen a very different. Different path for the type of relationship she's willing to have versus you. I'm guessing you're have no interest or don't even get someone who's in a polyamorous relationship. So there's maybe some level of disconnect that you have.

[Kelly]

Yeah. In the past, I think I've been very like, I don't really get it. So I'm not gonna pass any judgment. Like, you know, I can't even really understand this, like, extremely gray area, blurred line situation. Like, whatever. But it's like, I think that like the pregnancy thing has really pushed me to be like, super protective because I feel very protective of like, new moms.

[Nick]

I get that people, instead of nitpicking and poking holes in her relationship and. And potentially causing her to question her Husband, just be there as a friend. Check in on her. Ask how she doing. If you're worried that she's not getting emotional support, offer emotional support. And there again, there's a line between offering some port and, like, being nosy and inserting your opinion where it might not be needed or asked for. If someone's not being seen, you see them. It's not saying, hey, you should be with someone who sees you. She. She's an adult. She's in therapy. She's in individual therapy and couples therapy. Maybe they have a bad therapist, I don't know. But if you're worried about her, check in on her, see how she's doing. Make yourself available to her, validate her feelings. If she is feeling. If she's like, I don't know, maybe I'm crazy, maybe I'm asking for too much, then you can step in and say, of course you're not asking for much too. Too much. You're pregnant. Like, you can't ask for too much.

[Kelly]

Right.

[Nick]

You know, you have every right to feel this way. What can I do for you? How can I help you? If she brings up her husband to you, then certainly that gives you a little bit of wiggle room to maybe like, ask more questions. But like, now, like I said, now is not the time to stick your nose in her relationship and start like, in, in, you know, using her being pregnant as a way to finally be honest with how you really feel about her decisions in her relationship.

[Kelly]

Yeah. And like, when she's like, has all this going on and then I hear about it from other people, just like, pretend I don't know that and have my own track with her.

[Nick]

Like, what are you hearing from other people?

[Kelly]

Like, the whole.

[Nick]

And who are you hearing it from?

[Kelly]

Like, we have kind of a friend group that's like, emotionally close, but not always, like, physically close. So we're all like, sometimes we're talking to like one on one people. And then, you know, you talk to another friend in the group and they've heard from this person like, that they're not doing well or whatever. So like, I was hearing that her anxiety was like, flaring up in the first trimester because she was asking him to, like, prioritize her and he wasn't doing. Doing it. And meanwhile he had told my husband at like an event, like, oh, I'm just spending all my time, like, just really caring for her and doting on her. And so, like, it just like, is so frustrating to hear him say that. And then her have a completely different story for another friend.

[Nick]

Yeah, I just think, you know, friend groups are great to have, but when it's. This becomes the rumor mill, it's never good.

[Kelly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And also like, unless are any other people in this friend group polyamorous?

[Kelly]

No.

[Nick]

So you know, it's already, you know, they're, they're already by default going to be the most titillating and most like talked about couple because of their choice to have the most unconventional type of relationship. So. Yeah, I'm not saying he's a great guy or you're not wrong. I just. It sounds a lot like gossip.

[Kelly]

Yeah, I guess I just like, I don't feel like it's gossip because.

[Nick]

Oh, it literally is gossip.

[Kelly]

Okay.

[Nick]

She's not coming to you.

[Kelly]

Yeah, I guess I feel like the purpose of gossip is like an interesting story. Whereas like I was kind of given this information with the like from a friend who doesn't have a child being like, are you worried about this because you have a child and you know what this is, is like.

[Nick]

Sure. But again you're also behind it is you're not in a polyamorous relationship. And it's like again, you might, you might be right. But well intentioned gossip is still gossip. But again, if you want to be a friend, you can be a friend. You, if you want to step up in a time of need for your friend, you can do that. You can check in with her. How you doing? Thinking about you today. Anything I can do? Do you to want to talk? You know, you can make yourself available to her without being nosy, without, you know, trying to be like, well, you know, you know, how's Randy doing? Is he still like hanging out with his girlfriend, you know, like that don't do that, you know? Yeah, if she wants to offer that information, great.

[Kelly]

I am like texting her and voice noting her and like she's responding and yeah, it's just like. Yeah, I guess it's just like it really freaked me out, I guess that like she kind of gives me like this rosier story and then I mean maybe she's happy.

[Nick]

I don't know, like maybe she is friends with this girl and I don't know, maybe I don't, you know, I don't, I don't know. You don't know either, clearly. I mean, listen, it doesn't sound like anyone in this friend group would do what she's willing to do. And so because of that you all are judging her. Her a little bit.

[Kelly]

Yeah, that's probably true. I guess like when I was thinking about it, and I was like, if you kind of strip out the, like, Holly part of it, like, he's still prioritizing seeing another person over her. Which, like, if my husband was like.

[Nick]

Yeah, your husband would never.

[Kelly]

With this friend, even if it wasn't, like, emotional or sexual or whatever, I would just be like, why is there a person that you want to spend more time with than me? Like that.

[Nick]

Well, I mean, you wouldn't want to be in a polyamorous relationship. You and I are aligned. I get it. Like, we wouldn't do what your friend's doing. And I agree with you that, I mean, he doesn't sound like the best guy. And it kind of sounds like he's kind of convinced her to be in a polyamorous relationship as a way to, like, sleep with other women guilt free. But, like, I don't know your friend. And that's. That's. That's a snap judgment I'm basing off of very limited information. And again, like, your friend is not a child who is incapable of making decisions for herself. And you can't save people who don't want to be saved, and you can't help people who aren't asking for your help. All you can do is create a safe space for your friend that if in need, she feels comfortable enough to go to you. And the way to do that is to make sure that you don't feel like you will just judge her if she does come to you.

[Kelly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

That's all you can do.

[Kelly]

Yeah. Yeah, I guess, like, I'm normally a person who, like, really does not think it's your place to tell somebody what you think about their partner. Like, they've chosen that partner and they see something you don't. And I just, like, felt this, like, intense, like, protect yourself. Protect the baby. Like, now I get it for yourself.

[Nick]

I totally get it.

[Kelly]

But I don't know. Is this the time? Is this the time to say something? But, yeah, I guess there's not really ever a time.

[Nick]

Well, again, the fact that she is pregnant, you causing your friend a lot of stress would be the literal opposite of protecting that baby.

[Kelly]

Right? Yeah. And, like, I wouldn't be like, hey, I need to talk to you. I heard a bunch of stuff.

[Nick]

I just, like, how would you do it?

[Kelly]

I mean, like, I'm gonna see her for the first time in a while this weekend. And, like, how's it going? How's everything with your husband? Which I would ask, like, any pregnant.

[Nick]

Friend, try your best to be a normal Friend.

[Kelly]

Okay.

[Nick]

Without being nosy. And just ask how she's doing.

[Kelly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And don't assume that she is lying to you or pain painting a different picture. You know, just see how she's doing. If she's like, I don't know, just. Just a little, you know, I'm a little stressful. Why are you stressed? What. Anything I can help out with? Anything you want to talk about, you know, I'm here. Just whatever. I love. I love you no matter what. And I just want you to my. I'm. You know, I'm your friend, and I. You know, if there's anything I can do or, you know, even if it's just to talk, I just want you to know I love you no matter what. And I'm here for you and all I want is your happiness. And I just. You know, I'm so happy that you're going to be a mom, and I can't wait to share motherhood and that experience with you and trade stories and I love you. That's all you can say. If she opens up to you, be like, oh, my God, I'm glad you asked. So just. And just unload on her. It's not a green light for you to stress her out. It's just. You can ask more questions because she's. Don't assume you know the answer. Just be more curious. If she says she's great, believe her.

[Kelly]

Okay. That's hard to do, but I get it. I get it.

[Nick]

We don't know what it's like to be in that relationship. We can only make assumptions.

[Kelly]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And since it's something neither of us would do, it's almost impossible not to judge. I judge people all the time, and I usually think I'm right, but it doesn't mean I am.

[Kelly]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nick]

Then even if I am right, it's not like it's not my life.

[Kelly]

Yeah. It's, like, hard to watch her, like, be betrayed repeatedly and not.

[Nick]

How do you. You're assuming she's being betrayed.

[Kelly]

I mean, she describes it that way, like, still currently. Yeah. Like, if he sleeps with someone that she's asked him not to pursue, like, she sees that as a betrayal, and.

[Nick]

That'S still going on, and she's open that up. Opened up to you. Like, she's like, my husband keeps sleeping with someone else that despite our polyamorous relationship, I'm not Kar. Comfortable with.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Kelly]

Like, she's told me that in the past.

[Nick]

In the past or recently?

[Kelly]

Not recently, because he's had the same girlfriend and now, it's what I'm saying.

[Nick]

You can't, like, you know, you can't use something that happened two years ago. What's the situation now?

[Kelly]

Him continuing to prioritize this other girlfriend while his, like, wife is pregnant with their child is. When she's asked him, please prioritize me to me, me is like, in the same bucket as, like, I'm asking you to do something for me in our relationship.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, you can ask, like, how's that going? Is. Do you feel like he's doing that? I mean, that would be the. I would say that's the extent of how nosy you should get without her opening up to you first. Yeah, I. I understand you have the best intentions, and you. You might not be wrong, but, like, I. It just. There's. You want to be careful not to convince yourself. Yourself that you need to play hero here.

[Kelly]

I know, and I normally don't. I normally don't. I really don't. Like, I normally am very, like, live and let live. And I just, like, I feel like. Because I feel so activated by this, it's making me.

[Nick]

Well, that's like, something. You got to recognize that you are activated because you're a mother and you have these very maternal instincts, and you're very protective, and you couldn't imagine your husband doing to you what you think is going on in that relationship. But, like, that still doesn't give you permission to assume you know exactly what's going on. Again, all you can do is check in, have a relationship with your friend, and the closer you two are, the more she'll open up to you.

[Kelly]

Do I have to, like, be nice to her husband?

[Nick]

Well, I mean, be weird for you to just be mean to him to her face.

[Kelly]

I know. I'm just, like. It's, like, frustrating to me to think to, like, almost let him get away with all this. But, yeah, I hear what you're saying. That would not be helpful to her, so don't take that on.

[Nick]

Yep. Yeah. All you can do is give her this. Help her have strength when she needs to find strength.

[Kelly]

And I know that she does have that. Like, she is such a strong person. I think that's why it's hard to watch this, because I'm like, so just keep validating. Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, keep being there by her side and let her know you're care for her. You're always, you know, no matter what you need, I'm by your side. I got your back.

[Kelly]

Okay. That makes sense.

[Nick]

Yeah. There's a reason why. And I'm not saying this guy is, but, like, in your. What was meant, you know, gaslighting, blah, blah. But in. In the. In the most basic, you know, original sense of the word gaslighting, part of the gaslighting playbook and equation is the person gaslighting their victims isolates their victim from friends and family so that no one can say, hey, this. This reaction reality that this person is painting isn't true. Which is why, like, the fact that you can be by her side, can say, I have your back no matter what, and you have a relationship with her and you talk to her on a regular basis is definitely a sign that, like, he is not to the extent that trying to manipulate, you know, like, he might be doing things you don't agree with, but he's certainly not afraid of you having a relationship. Relationship with her. And. And she clearly is maintaining friendships with a bunch of people who don't subscribe to their lifestyle.

[Kelly]

Right.

[Nick]

And I think that is definitely a positive sign in terms of her not necessarily being a victim of this guy.

[Kelly]

Yeah, that's fair. That is a good point.

[Nick]

All right.

[Kelly]

Be a supportive friend. Stay in your lane. Okay, Got it.

[Nick]

Well, hopefully this is helpful.

[Kelly]

Yeah. Thank you. No, it was. It's clarifying because I was like, you're gonna.

[Nick]

You're gonna have a hard time with this. I can tell. So you're gonna have to try not to. Like, I've convinced you. I've basically feel like I've. I've. I've put you on pause, but you're gonna want to convince yourself I'm wrong.

[Kelly]

Well, I think that, like, the point you're making about her not causing her extra stress is like, that will be my North Star. Kind of like, you know, so in the past, like, honestly, before she got pregnant, when she was trying to get pregnant, my other friends were talking to me, being like, I'm really worried about them getting pregnant. And I was like, she chose him. You know, this is like a next step for them. Like, it. I don't know, maybe it'll be great. And she's going to be an amazing mom. So, like. And I was. I was more like, you know, they chose each other. They're doing it. They're doing the stuff that people do. Um, and I think I can go back to that and just be like. I think also I feel so strongly since, you know, like, being. Becoming a mom, it's, like, so transformative and rocks your world in good and bad ways that I, like, literally my only goal in life is to, like, support my other friends who are becoming moms now. Like, I mean, I like work and stuff, but in my personal life, like, like, that's like, what I care about. And so when I just hear that she's not being supported, it just like makes me so mad.

[Nick]

But I think so just try to step up as much as you can to give her whatever support you think she's lacking. I know you, you can't obviously replace whatever support is required by him, but you, you can provide something else. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Kelly]

Okay, Cool.

[Nick]

All right, take care. I appreciate, appreciate the call. Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now, and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to Libsynads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.