Amy Duggar (3:09)

That's so good.

Host Nick (3:09)

Yeah.

Amy Duggar (3:10)

I'm so happy for you, Mick.

Host Nick (3:12)

So I was very like, I guess your show, I was very, like, almost uncomfortable with it because especially as stuff started coming out and it was almost as if the Duggar family ended up becoming the stereotypes some of the critics of religious families or large families would have. That I would be very sensitive to. Yeah, it was like, I was. I was kind of. I was like, you know, like, you guys are making us look bad type of thing.

Amy Duggar (3:44)

Well, I wasn't, but I understand why you would feel that way.

Host Nick (3:48)

Yeah, yeah. Not you, you know.

Amy Duggar (3:50)

No, no, no.

Host Nick (3:50)

But like the show itself.

Amy Duggar (3:51)

Yes. No, I get that.

Host Nick (3:53)

And obvious book is all about coming forward as someone who's finding a voice through a lot of the abuse that you witness and even experienced on your own. And a lot of the people who follow this show, we certainly love to give a voice to people who find their voice. People who have been victims and we've all faced some sort of adversity and tragedy, but people who are able to work through it and survive it and, you know, be stronger for it on the other side, you know, it's hard to say better for it because, like, you don't want to imply that you have to go through abuse or tragedy to be better, but if you can be stronger, there's a silver lining or at least a reason for hope. So I'm very excited to talk with you. I hope you're not nervous. And we certainly just want to.

Amy Duggar (4:41)

I think I'm calming down, learn more.

Host Nick (4:44)

About, you know, your story. I guess just starting with. I guess what I am fascinated about is the relationship as I, you know, I didn't realize at the time, but I asked you, like, how many siblings do you have? Like, you know, I assume maybe you would say, oh, I have. I have six, you know.

Amy Duggar (5:00)

Right.

Host Nick (5:01)

Not 19. You know, there's not 19 of us, but there's a lot. But you're an only child.

Amy Duggar (5:05)

I'm an only child.

Host Nick (5:07)

So explain to me how that happens. Where your mom Is sisters of Jim Bob.

Amy Duggar (5:12)

Yes.

Host Nick (5:12)

The father of the Duggar family. Yeah, the infamous Duggar family. And how does it go from you being an only child to having this close relation with your family that had 19 children?

Amy Duggar (5:23)

Yeah, so, I mean, I just grew up. My mom and dad had one child. They were fine with that. They were fulfilled. And every time that my aunt and uncle were pregnant, it just always added more and more. Every year was like another baby to celebrate and another baby and another baby. So, I mean, I've held all of them. You know, I was very, very close with them, and it almost felt like I was like an extra sister in a way, you know? But I spent a lot of my time over there. I mean, just, I did everything with them, you know.

Co-host Natalie (5:52)

So y' all lived, like, down the street.

Amy Duggar (5:54)

We lived, like, five minutes away from each other.

Host Nick (5:57)

Do you remember when the opportunity to turn this into a TV show was presented to the family?

Amy Duggar (6:06)

I do remember.

Host Nick (6:07)

What was that experience like, and how involved were you from the beginning?

Amy Duggar (6:11)

So I wasn't involved at all. They started doing, like, a documentary. It started off with a newspaper clipping, and it had my uncle, who was in politics, and, like, six of his kids were like little ducklings behind him walking to a capitol. And someone took a picture of it and said, like, who is this family? This is so cute. They're all matching and color coded. And it equaled, you know, a documentary being, being filmed and that kind of thing. And then next thing you know, they get a call from tlc. So it was just one of those things where it just kind of happened organically. And I wanted, honestly, nothing to do with it, because I'm not really like them. You know, they have certain rules and restrictions that I didn't have. And so it wasn't until season one that I was just there picking up my grandma at their house and trying to just get her to come to the car. And she refused and was like, no, you need to come inside. And I was like, oh. And it was when all the camera crew was there, all the things. And so, you know, she had, like, a hidden agenda that she didn't tell me about. And so I walked in, and there they are sitting, you know, choir, you know, all. All meek and mild and. And silent and obedient and. And, yeah, they're filming. And so I had to walk around the cameras, like, trying to get as far away as possible from them to get, you know, to my grandma's door. And. And, yeah, they asked me if I wanted to be a chaperone for Josh and Anna, who are adults, but in their world, they need like a babysitter. They need someone to watch after them, to make sure that they, you know, behave correctly and walk the line.

Host Nick (7:50)

And then how did you become, like, really a part of the show?

Amy Duggar (7:54)

Yeah. So in that moment, I'm walking, trying to be careful and quiet, and the producer was like, I'm sorry, my, my uncle was like, who wants to be the chaperone? Let's everyone put their names in the hat. And I'm drawing and drawing a name. And I laughed out loud because, I mean, it's ridiculous. These grown adults need supervision. Like, what? And so I was like, how old.

Co-host Natalie (8:15)

Were they at the time? And how old were you at the time?

Amy Duggar (8:17)

They were like 20, I believe. 19 or 20. Okay. And I was a year older than Josh, so like 21. And I'm like, like, I just kept walking like, oh my gosh, I cannot believe this. And the, the producer saw that and he was like, who are you? Kind of like zeroed in on me and I was like, I'm Amy, I'm just here to pick up grandma. Like, no big deal. And he was like, no, you need to jump on camera. And I was like. And then that's how it all began.

Host Nick (8:44)

Did you have a conversation with your parents about, like, should I do this? Like, you were, you, you were an adult at. So you didn't really need their permission.

Amy Duggar (8:51)

I didn't really need permission, but I was just like, hey, I already love my family. You know, it's already something like, fun. Why not? Let's just do it. And so I became just like a part of the show.

Host Nick (9:00)

What was your opinion of the Duggar family at that point? Where were you kind of. Did you see it through rose colored glasses at that point?

Amy Duggar (9:10)

Absolutely, yes. Yeah, it was like I had them on a pedestal.

Host Nick (9:14)

Really?

Amy Duggar (9:14)

Yes. Yeah, they were the epitome of perfect. I'm not even kidding. Like, the mom never screamed or yelled or got anxious or annoyed or needed a timeout from being a mom. The dad was always providing kind, really fun, hands on with the kids. The kids were always like the kindest to each other. They weren't allowed to be, you know, any kind of like bragging or stupid or. Yeah, they weren't allowed to call names. Nothing. It was like, it was like going back to like black and white tv.

Host Nick (9:44)

Do you deliberately say the mom and the dad because you don't want to say their names?

Amy Duggar (9:48)

I am watching Legal. Do you blame me? Allegedly. Allegedly. In my opinion, in My opinion.

Host Nick (9:56)

Fair enough.

Amy Duggar (9:57)

I have to.

Host Nick (9:58)

No, that makes sense.

Amy Duggar (9:59)

There's targets on my back. I'm sure.

Host Nick (10:02)

I'm serious. Are you doing this with a sense of fear?

Amy Duggar (10:05)

There is a sense of fear, but there's always a sense of freedom that comes with it. So for me, it's like, I'm going to tell my story no matter what because it can help people out there, you know, you don't have to live the way that I. I lived for a very long time.

Host Nick (10:18)

What are your aunt and uncle doing today?

Amy Duggar (10:20)

I have no idea.

Host Nick (10:21)

You have no idea?

Amy Duggar (10:22)

I have no idea. I haven't spoken to them in a very long time.

Host Nick (10:24)

Are they still public figures in any way?

Amy Duggar (10:27)

I don't. I mean, maybe.

Host Nick (10:29)

Ish.

Amy Duggar (10:30)

Ish.

Host Nick (10:30)

Okay.

Co-host Natalie (10:31)

Do you keep in contact with any of your cousins?

Amy Duggar (10:33)

I'm very close with Jill. Okay. Who had her. Had a book as well, and it was great. And she's wonderful. And when she actually goes over to her parents house, you know, say hi to her mom and the cousins or her. Her brother and sister. I watch her kids. Oh, yeah. Okay. So we have a very close relationship.

Co-host Natalie (10:51)

Okay, so at what age did you realize, like, wait, this feels wrong, the way that you're. You're treating everyone like this feels icky?

Amy Duggar (11:01)

Well, I mean, it took a very long time. All the rules and regulations and the things that were, like, all over, like, the rules in the house were just like pieces of paper with, like, all these rules on it. And like, it was just how they grew up. So for a while there, I didn't think anything of it because I didn't know anything different, you know, kind of thing. I mean, I did in my own world, but over there, it was just how they were, you know, and it wasn't until I started seeing some things happen in the house that made me really, really question, like, wait a second, who else is. Who else is really hurting?

Co-host Natalie (11:35)

Do you remember the first thing you saw?

Amy Duggar (11:37)

Yeah, there was a couple of things. First off, I, Josh, had an old computer and my dad bought it. I was home one day and looking through it and learning about the new MacBook.

Host Nick (11:47)

Back in the day, your dad bought his computer. Okay.

Amy Duggar (11:51)

Huh. And on it said, josh's files. And I was like, huh? And so I clicked on it, thinking, like, you know, you've got to delete it. And thousands of pornographic images were on there. And so here's this perfect son who smiles on cue and his hair is neatly gelled and all of these things. And yet he had kind of a big secret you know, a different something he was really struggling with. Clearly, it's not a crime, but at the same time, it just shows that, like, maybe they weren't as perfect as.

Host Nick (12:24)

Maybe the material you found. It was there. To be clear, it wasn't of any illegal. No illegal stuff.

Amy Duggar (12:31)

No, not that I thought.

Host Nick (12:32)

Certainly not the type of content you would expect to find from how they presented.

Amy Duggar (12:37)

Right. Yeah. I mean, they were all about, you know, just Jesus and religion and being happy and walking in his ways. And yet this obviously, was when you.

Host Nick (12:46)

Found that out, like, what did you do with that information?

Amy Duggar (12:48)

Yeah, so I told my mom, and she was just like, okay, we've got to call Jim Bob. I'm just gonna say his name. We. I have to call him. And so we did. And I was. I was quickly dismissed. They were. I was told that. Amy, there's no way that's my son's files. He would never look at such imagery. I know. I. I.

Host Nick (13:13)

Also. His computer.

Amy Duggar (13:13)

Exactly. Yeah. I'm like, okay. He said that Josh bought the computer from a pawn shop, and so that could have been the name of the guy from the pawn shop.

Co-host Natalie (13:22)

Okay, gotcha.

Amy Duggar (13:24)

Yeah. Yes. Okay.

Host Nick (13:25)

So from that point forward, you know, there's sometimes a moment where you kind of. It's like you be. You kind of wake up, you become aware of things.

Amy Duggar (13:33)

Yeah.

Host Nick (13:33)

Was that. Did that. Was that a moment where all of a sudden you started looking to see what else is maybe going on? Because, like, you know, again, someone who's very familiar with religion. I've always had a really great. I'm not very religious anymore these days, but I've always had a very positive experience with religion. But I am very familiar with a lot of people who present as religious. It's a bit of a show, right?

Amy Duggar (13:57)

Definitely can be.

Host Nick (13:58)

Yeah. And they hold up. You know, there's some people who will own. Hey, I'm a. I'm a sinner. I try not to be, but, like, I'm not going to sit there and pretend that I don't. And I will continue to ask for forgiveness when I need it, but I'm a flawed person who will always and every day need grace. But it seems like your cousins and aunts and uncles and things like that, they almost presented as very pious.

Amy Duggar (14:29)

Oh, yes. Like, they were like, on level, the highest level that you could possibly be with Jesus. Just like there was no other. You couldn't get higher. You know what I mean? Just like everything was so perfect. I can't even describe to you, like, there's bread Baking in the homemade bread, and the kids are playing chess, and everyone's so kind to each other, and there's classical music in the air, and it's just like, this is wonderful, you know, like, why can't we all live like this?

Host Nick (14:58)

And then what was your childhood like?

Amy Duggar (15:00)

It was hell. It was absolutely hell. Yeah. I grew up with a lot of yelling, a lot of screaming. My mom and dad were not married. They had me out of wedlock. So there I am, a walking sin already, you know, something that my cousins didn't approve of, my family didn't approve of.

Host Nick (15:15)

Did you feel their judgment even as a young child?

Amy Duggar (15:18)

Yes. Yeah, I mean, I definitely felt like. I mean, I was told, like, amy, you need a man to help you, like, tame you down, and just felt like I was too much. I was too loud. I didn't see. Speak like an IBLP woman speaks. They are taught. There's, like, classes on.

Host Nick (15:36)

What is it? Did you say that? What kind of woman.

Amy Duggar (15:38)

Institute of Basic Life principles is, like, what they follow. And it's.

Host Nick (15:43)

Did they make that up?

Amy Duggar (15:45)

No, no. Bill Gothard is, like, the leader of this religious group, and they're, like, a type of Christian. It is like a. Yes. Like, to the extreme. Like, extremely conservative. But, yeah, there's classes on, like, how to change your voice and how to talk more like Princess Meek and mild. They're taught that women are supposed to just be seen and not really heard and that they don't really have too much. They don't hold any weight. Yeah. How do you feel about that, Natalie?

Host Nick (16:17)

It's crazy, and there's obviously a part of the book where you write about kind of having this awareness that your own father had abusive tendencies. Did that come before realizing that your aunt and uncle and cousins rather, had their own skeletons in their closet? Like, what. Where'd you go from thinking your childhood was hell but maybe normal? I think most kids who grow up in a household where there's yelling and screaming and disconnect, and if you don't know anything different, and even if you maybe. Like, when you saw your. When you went to your aunts and uncle's house and there's this harmony, it's just more like, well, you know, it's, like, really nice here and religious, but, like, maybe my parents just yell. Like, but you had an awareness that, like, this isn't okay.

Amy Duggar (17:06)

Yeah. I mean, I would, like, hide at the trampoline late at night and just, like, go look at the stars and be like, one day, it doesn't have to Be like this. There was just a lot of strife, a lot of control, a lot of fear. And iblp, which is, you know, what I was telling you about that group, they, they work out of fear. Like, that's how they get, you know, people to just like, bend to their will.

Co-host Natalie (17:28)

You talk a lot about the abusive tactics that your family used on you. Shaming, gaslighting, love bombing, all the things which do you feel like hit you the hardest and like, how has that shaped how you view love today?

Amy Duggar (17:44)

I, since I was younger, I felt like I was very, like, I was talked to in a very condescending tone. And so I always felt like a little girl. You know, it's stupid. Like I had nothing to offer. And that played a huge role because for a while there I was like, I am not enough. I'm too loud, I'm too boisterous. I'm. I'm not like them. And so instead of using it as like something positive, like, you know, she's gonna just be a part of the show and, and kind of add to it, it was. I was also viewed as crazy. My nickname was Crazy Cousin Amy. And it was a nickname that I did not approve of. And it's not something that I really wanted. And yet that's what I was called. Like, everyone, like, everyone knew to me as that. Yeah. For over 80 episodes.

Host Nick (18:30)

Everyone wants a nickname, right? To a certain extent. And did you feel like, oh, like I'm crazy.

Amy Duggar (18:35)

Ah.

Host Nick (18:35)

Like it's fun? Or was it a little bit of that or some shame that was. That was part of the nickname.

Amy Duggar (18:42)

Yeah. I mean, at first I was just like, I hate this. Like, I know it's gonna turn into something. And I mean, because you can view crazy as is anything, right? But for me, I was like, I don't have a police record. I've never done drugs. I've never done like a one night stand. Like, why am I crazy? You know? And then I was like, okay, well, it's not going to change. No one's listening to me, so I might as well embrace it. And so I started like jumping out of plane. I started, you know, feeding a giraffe from my mouth. All the things that the producers wanted me to do. And I was just like, let's just go with it.

Co-host Natalie (19:14)

Did your parents call you that too?

Amy Duggar (19:16)

No, no, not at all. Just. Just my cousins and all them. And it was almost like a stipulation, like, we love Amy, but she's different than us kind of thing. Yeah.

Host Nick (19:26)

Back to, you know, filming the TV show I'm obviously very familiar with how reality TV works, how it's made. Yeah, you talked a little bit about when people are asked to film a TV show, you realize that while it's reality tv, you know, hey, you're making a TV show and sometimes, like, you need to, like, repeat something because they didn't get it on camera or it didn't get. It didn't pick up clearly on. On the audio. And it's just like, hey. But people have to under. You know, it's like there's a level of, again, we have to make a TV show. And that I think on for anyone listening or watching and who hears that, like, it makes sense. Like, it doesn't take away from the authenticity for the most part, knowing that, like, hey, we might have to guide a scene along, so to speak. I think depending on the show, you know, there's a spectrum of, like, is this really authentic? Are we creating scenes? Is it inauthentic? Did you see a change in your family's behavior? Knowing that, like, they became almost caricatures of themselves? Like, once they're in a TV show, which I think is very common for people who do these episodic kind of documentary type of shows where you're being followed and you kind of succumb to the pressure of the audience and what people are saying about you. And you either want to lean in or lean away from certain opinions that people are saying. Like, how did you witness your aunt, uncle and your cousin's behavior as a result of them being a part of the show?

Amy Duggar (20:51)

I think that there was like a huge shift and I realized that they didn't trust people all of a sudden, like, the house was. I mean, anyone was a welcome. I mean, they would invite anyone over a hundred plus people all the time. It was like a busy hotel, literally. But at the same time, they didn't trust people with, like, actual, like, information. Like, they wouldn't tell, like, where they were going or, like, what kind of trip they were going on or whatever. And so, yeah, you just started noticing that there was more. There were more characters on the show than just like regular people with the big family. I mean, they definitely had different personalities and that kind of thing. And I think they played into it for sure.

Co-host Natalie (21:26)

You talk about the financial control that your dad kind of did. Can you tell our audience a little bit more about that?

Amy Duggar (21:32)

My uncle, my. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he told all of us that 19 kids accounting was a ministry and that we were on the show, you know, just to shine a light in the darkness. And to be a part of. Of this ministry and that God has called us to this. Was there any compensation? Nada.

Co-host Natalie (21:53)

No one.

Host Nick (21:53)

Like, so as far as all the kids, and you were aware you were doing this for the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

Amy Duggar (21:59)

I mean, I go into it in my book, and there's a contract, There's a bunch of stuff that I talk about, but, yeah, I signed a contract blindly.

Host Nick (22:07)

Oh, wow.

Amy Duggar (22:08)

Huh.

Host Nick (22:09)

Do you know how much. Do you have any idea how much money?

Amy Duggar (22:14)

I actually looked it up. I think it was like, over 6 million. Yeah, ministry. Right, Ministry, Ministry. And. And what I've noticed also is that he loves real estate, so he's bought all kinds of houses. He's an investor, and he's very smart. He really is. He's a businessman, and he knows how to. How to do it. But ministry.

Co-host Natalie (22:37)

Was your aunt aware of any of that at all, or was she also kept out of it?

Amy Duggar (22:43)

So the IVLP teaches that the men are the umbrella, so they have full control over the entire household. And then the women are really just silenced. It just. Which is terrible, but they're silenced. And so they have to go with what their husband says because they're submitive.

Co-host Natalie (23:00)

So are they, like, asking for. Say they're going to the grocery store. Is it like, hey, I need money to go to the grocery store? And then it's.

Amy Duggar (23:07)

No. I mean, I think they have money, like, to do that. There was definitely, like, a debit card and, you know, that kind of thing. But he. I believe, in my opinion, he kept track of that, and he made sure that it all fell in line to what he expected of the family. And if there was ever where they went somewhere else, let's say Hooters, for example, or somewhere like that, then I. I personally believe that he would dock that and then something would come about it. He kept close tabs, for sure.

Co-host Natalie (23:38)

Do you have any memory of your uncle doing anything the opposite of what he preached?

Amy Duggar (23:47)

Yes, he preached all the time about how, like, lying, the lying tongue is not of God and that you can't. You can't trust someone that lies. You shouldn't be around that. And honestly, like, lie. And I put it in my book that lying is like a snowball and it just gathers momentum. Every lie you take until it's rolling down the hill and there's no way to stop it. I literally listen my book. Several lies that was told to me by him.

Host Nick (24:14)

Like what?

Amy Duggar (24:16)

Oh, all kinds of things. Allegedly. No. Yeah. So when Josh had his last horrible scandal and went to prison. You know, we asked like, hey, is there any truth to this? Tell me this isn't true. And he responded with, oh, no, not at all. Homeland Security is just friends of Josh. And so they stopped by to say hi. Friends, friends, friends.

Host Nick (24:39)

And do you remind my audience, like, what. What did he go to jail for?

Amy Duggar (24:43)

Oh, Lord. He was found guilty of having sexual abuse material of children. All right. Terrible, terrible stuff. Low, low of the low. And I was told that there was no problem back in the day with the computer, you know? Right. It all goes full circle. It's a big full circle in this whole, whole book.

Co-host Natalie (25:06)

And they never accepted the fact that he did that.

Amy Duggar (25:10)

I don't believe. So I think they're still defending him till this day. Wow. Yeah.

Host Nick (25:14)

And, like, just through denying, like, denial.

Amy Duggar (25:18)

Yeah. I mean, they're just like, my son would never do that. They got it wr and they got it wrong.

Co-host Natalie (25:22)

It's beyond. It's like, so hard to comprehend, huh?

Amy Duggar (25:26)

Yeah. There was like eight different lies I believe that are in. In the book. Of all the things that he told.

Host Nick (25:30)

Me, looking back, like, what were some of the signs that in the moment you didn't really notice or just kind of maybe overlooked that now looking back, you realize that this was a family that were not who they pretended to be or how they presented themselves.

Amy Duggar (25:48)

It still, like, kills me till this day, but there was a birthday party. There was a huge celebration in their home. And it was like a 7,800 square foot home. Okay. Large. And the living room was full of people. And I went to the pantry to get. To get some napkins, and I, you know, opened the door and I heard. So I heard something be like, like holding it in. And I turned on the light and bless it, one of my cousins was, like, holding her mouth, like, where she couldn't cry out loud and having, like, a severe panic attack. And you could just tell something was going on. Something was. And so I reached down, I held her, forgot the napkins, whatever, and just held her and just let her know, like, I see you. You know, you were worthy to be seen. Like, I'm here. How can I help you? And. And I just held her and just held her for probably 30 minutes. And no one knew she was hurting. No one knew she was crying. And I was like, what do I do with this information? Like, oh, my gosh. You know? And so I tried. I tried my hardest to contact my uncle, talk to him, talk to my aunt, talk to anyone that would listen, you know, because I was like, Obviously, you know, they. They're always happy all the time, but they were. I think some of them allegedly were very much hurting and. And in a lot of pain and going through trauma that I had no idea about. But when I, you know, asked them, like, you know, trying to tell them what was going on, they were just like, oh, Amy, it's fine. She just had a bad day. There's nothing going on. Nothing going on. And so I hate to say this, but I kind of believed them, you know, because it was just so convincing.

Co-host Natalie (27:24)

Like, oh, she was on her period.

Amy Duggar (27:26)

Yes. Like, oh, yeah, exactly. Like, something like that. So I was like, okay. Or like, maybe they're sad that, like, someone's getting married and moving out of the house or, you know, because they couldn't leave the house until they got married. That's a rule.

Host Nick (27:37)

Let me ask you this, because, you know, for example, with Josh, they have, you said, defended him to this day.

Amy Duggar (27:44)

Yeah.

Host Nick (27:45)

What does your gut or your heart tell you? Do you think deep down they know they're wrong for doing some of the things they've done? Or do you believe that they are walking a noble life or whatever you want to call it, a righteous life versus. You know what I'm saying?

Amy Duggar (28:02)

Yeah, no, I get that.

Host Nick (28:03)

Like the pastor who, like, cheats on his wife and steals money from, you know, it's like he knows he's a piece of. You know what I'm saying? He's just using religion as a cover and using, you know, Bible scriptures as a way to, like, control his victims. And then there are people who are just, like. Just delusional. I don't know. Which one do you think it's more of from your point of view when you're looking at specifically your uncle?

Amy Duggar (28:26)

Yeah. So in my opinion, I'll just put that out there. I definitely think that he knows that he's done wrong, and I do think that, like, how can you not. How could you sleep at night knowing all the lies you've told? All the things? I mean, he's lied on, like, national television to everyone, and it's just like, come on, dude. Like, give it up. Like, the gig is up. You know? But he's also the type, I believe, that, that wants to live in this, like, perfect world, and so I think he creates that. Does that make sense? Like, he's just.

Host Nick (28:57)

Do you think he was always like that or complicated? Like, do you think he started the show with good intentions?

Amy Duggar (29:03)

I really do. I really do believe that. Do I think he was like, hey, this is A ministry. We're going to show, like, the good, the good of people and all of that. But in my book, I also explained that I do believe that Josh went for help. He tried to talk to his parents for help, but it was when the show was going and, you know, why mess up a good thing if we can kind of put it under the rug and sweep it under and no one has to know?

Co-host Natalie (29:28)

Yeah, I feel like maybe like the money and the fame kind of got to him, where he started getting a little bit more and more corrupt, I think.

Amy Duggar (29:35)

I think because money does that to almost anyone if you don't keep it in check. Right. And so if you just, you know, all the perks that were coming in and the invites and the tickets and the, that send the first class tickets and, you know, all the things that you're invited to. Reality TV isn't real, but I think it can really warp your mind. I really think it can. So I think the money, money became like his fascination. And then it just, it just kept on growing and growing and growing.

Co-host Natalie (30:06)

Did you ever confide in your parents about what was going on at your aunt and uncle's house? And like, what was their response?

Amy Duggar (30:15)

I mean, yeah, but my mom was under the impression that, like, oh, like, they're such great people. Like, don't worry about it. Don't, you know, whatever. So I actually ignored my, like, basic instincts in my heart. And what was like that gut feeling that, like, something was off? I ignored it for as long as I could because I still wanted to be part of the family. I still love them. And I knew if I asked questions, then, you know, I'm considered like an outsider already, you know, because I'm not a part of the iblp. And so in order to, like, really get to know them more, you would have to be a part of what they believe. But I already wasn't. So I was already kind of like on that line. And so I was just like, oh, my gosh, like, I don't want to lose my family, you know?

Host Nick (30:56)

Do you think the IBLP is more of a cult than a religion?

Amy Duggar (31:00)

100%. It's completely man made, in my opinion. Just man made up rules. And they don't make sense because every man in the family, right, let's say they've got 11 kids and the man, the father can decipher what happens in that, in that household. In every, every household is different because the man is the leader and like thumb control.

Host Nick (31:22)

Do you know how Jim Bob got it connected with this specific Cult.

Amy Duggar (31:28)

I like, I don't. I know that IBLP started going to, like, different churches around the area, and it was like, conferences. And I'm sure it looked really good because the way that my uncle and my mom grew up was a lot of yelling, a lot of fighting, a lot of, you know, a lot of turmoil. And so I think he was probably, in my opinion, looking for structure, looking for some way to, like, raise his family in the right way. And so I think it looked golden and looked happy and it looked inviting. And it's something that he was like, oh, like, this is going to be a really great thing for my family. And then it's just really crazy how it turns into it, because the men are not held accountable. So anything is possible and anything can happen.

Host Nick (32:07)

Yeah.

Amy Duggar (32:08)

Yeah.

Co-host Natalie (32:09)

You talk about, I mean, you said right here that your childhood was hell. Did you feel loved and cared for as a child?

Amy Duggar (32:17)

I. There were times that I did, but then again, my mom and my dad, they didn't get married till, like, like I was senior of high school. So they had a really, like, a roller coaster relationship, Ups and downs all around the whole thing. And so when things were going great, things were great, but when things weren't, then it was just kind of like, I wasn't necessarily. I was kind of like an afterthought. Yeah.

Co-host Natalie (32:44)

And is this. Your parents got divorced the same year you got married? Is that correct?

Amy Duggar (32:48)

Yeah. Yeah.

Co-host Natalie (32:49)

How is that for you, mentally?

Amy Duggar (32:52)

I mean, Honestly? I, I, I was excited for them, honestly, to divorce. It was to the point that my mom's life was probably gonna be in danger, in my opinion. Allegedly. It was getting really bad and just scary. And so my mom now lives with us, and so do you have any.

Host Nick (33:10)

Relationship with your father?

Amy Duggar (33:11)

I do not. I haven't talked to him in a really long time.

Co-host Natalie (33:14)

What made you feel scared for her?

Amy Duggar (33:17)

Things that he would say, he would pace the floor. He would say, like, I don't know what I'm gonna do with you. He had all kinds of threats that he would say just randomly out of nowhere, we'd be just sitting at the movies or, like, sitting in the living room, and he would just get up and just start, like, getting angry. And you're like, oh, my gosh, what are you gonna do? Like, it was just. You just never knew. You never knew.

Co-host Natalie (33:37)

Did he ever hit you?

Amy Duggar (33:39)

Your mom? He didn't. Thank goodness. But, I mean, emotional abuse is, is a big deal. And I felt like he punched me several times even when he didn't.

Host Nick (33:51)

I think there's a lot of people out there who experience emotional abuse, and you write about this in your book, but, you know, at times it kind of feels like family quirks or like, maybe this is our way of doing things. For the people listening who might be experiencing a type of emotional abuse, how did your, like, internal dialogue go from allowing you to realize that these weren't just family quirks, but they were actually signs of emotional abuse?

Amy Duggar (34:21)

It's a good question. I think that movie, the Truman show, you know, when he's floating, everything's great, happy, go, lucky. And then he hits a wall. I hit that same wall. And I just was like, there is a life that I've always wanted that I'm not gonna get with having these kind of people in my life and surrounding me in my inner circle. And so I just started noticing in, like, just their behavior, the way they talk, the way that. What they say, how they belittle, you know, all the things that they do that are like little. Like little punches, little jabs for no reason at all. And why am I judged? Why am I, you know, being unfairly labeled, all the things? And I was like, I don't need this in my life. I would start feeling really, like, chaotic, like inside jittery, you know, just mad for no reason. And you can just tell, like, like, there's. You can do things differently. And so I just was like, I'm done. I'm just so done. And I did. I just. I. I literally drove in my car one day. I wasn't getting any answers about Josh and, like, all the things that's gone on. And I was like, I need answers. And why is truth so hard to find in this freaking family? And I. I drove to their house, and I was like, on a mission, let me tell you. And I confronted him. It's in the book.

Host Nick (35:36)

Josh?

Amy Duggar (35:36)

Yeah.

Host Nick (35:37)

Can you tease a little bit about what that conversation was like?

Amy Duggar (35:40)

I can tease. I asked him point blank and not to go, you know, too much information, but I asked him point blank why he didn't touch me, why I was not. Why I was not a target.

Host Nick (35:52)

What made you want to ask that?

Amy Duggar (35:53)

Because he had touched his sisters, and that was like, his first huge, terrible scandal. And so, yeah, it was after that that I was like, I'm going to find some answers, and I'm. And I'll be damned if I don't get them.

Co-host Natalie (36:07)

Did you leave with answers?

Amy Duggar (36:09)

I did. I did. And I left feeling like a superhero. Just felt like I did everything I could. You know, I'm not this crazy, wild, crazy cousin Amy that everybody knows. But, like, I have a moral compass, and I'm. I'm not the person that I've been portrayed all these years.

Host Nick (36:26)

You almost sound like you have a little bit of grace for Josh.

Amy Duggar (36:30)

I kind of do in a way. A very small amount. And let me just tell you why I feel like he did try to get help. I feel like he did say, like, hey, I have a problem. Someone help me. And no one came to his rescue.

Host Nick (36:43)

Obviously, we're not doctors, neither of us. No, there's no therapist in this room. But do you have or maybe you're aware through, you know, people who have spoken out or about your family? But usually when it comes to this type of abuse, often abusers were once victims of abuse. Do you have any insight to or ideas of why you think your cousin Josh became the abuser that he is?

Amy Duggar (37:18)

I think it just kept. It was unchecked. No one, you know, got him the help. They don't believe. IVLP doesn't believe he came from.

Host Nick (37:26)

You know what I'm saying?

Amy Duggar (37:26)

Oh, yeah.

Host Nick (37:27)

I've never had. Some of his actions are very disgusting and very. Just hard to really even comprehend.

Amy Duggar (37:35)

I don't know where it began. I don't know who maybe allegedly abused anyone.

Host Nick (37:41)

Do you have any suspicions that it happened or that there was that type of abuse in that family?

Amy Duggar (37:47)

Yeah, I think there has to be someone somewhere that did something to where it began, but I have no idea who. And they went to, like, family camps and conferences. There was people all around. Like I said, there were always people in the house, and I don't know who it was. I have no idea.

Host Nick (38:05)

I mean, like, listen, like, kids finding porn is not that uncommon of a thing.

Amy Duggar (38:10)

True.

Host Nick (38:10)

You know, porn wasn't as prevalent as it is now. But when I was a kid, you know, I had some friends who dads had like a Playboy hidden in their drawer, and their kids found out about it, and we would sneak away and go see and things like that. And so for you to find your cousin Josh's laptop and find a folder, and at the time you discovered this pornographic material, none of which was the type of content that he later seemed to get into, that is obviously disgusting and illegal. But for you to go to his parents, for them to be in denial about that, something that, again, most parents are faced with their kid coming across some pornographic material and maybe even consuming it to a level that it's like, hey, like, this is too much. You know, like, it obviously shows that these These were a kind of parents that lived in denial. So, yeah, it's like it's in. Man, I. Again, I know what it's like to be in a large family. My parents were always had a good pulse on what all their kids were doing.

Amy Duggar (39:13)

That's so good.

Host Nick (39:14)

But yeah, I don't like, I am trying to comprehend what 19 would be like.

Amy Duggar (39:17)

Yeah, I mean, yeah, no, it' crazy. They had special quality time with their parents on their birthdays, like one on one. But I mean, as far as I am, as far as I saw, were.

Host Nick (39:30)

They kind of on their own in a way?

Amy Duggar (39:31)

I mean, yeah, they. They wondered. They. I mean, they had like lots of land, so I mean, they played chess, they played ball. They, you know, went with their dad, took their car a lot.

Co-host Natalie (39:40)

Did the older ones also kind of parent the younger ones?

Amy Duggar (39:43)

Yeah, they had a buddy system. They had a buddy system. So they had two or three younger ones that the older ones watched.

Host Nick (39:49)

Are any of your cousins close with your aunt and uncle still to this day?

Amy Duggar (39:54)

Yeah. So they all spend quality time, holidays, everything. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, they're all.

Host Nick (40:00)

What is your opinion of them today?

Amy Duggar (40:02)

Oh, gosh. My opinion of them is that I find it to be a very unhealthy family toxic pattern that's just going to continue and continue and continue.

Co-host Natalie (40:13)

Is it hard for you to be close with Jill? Like, is there any of that kind of like, what are you doing? How can you not see this? Or is it kind of like, you know what, you're an adult, I'm an adult. You do your thing, I'm here. I love you.

Amy Duggar (40:25)

So Jill has done a lot of counseling and I'm not going to really speak for her, but I will tell you she's done a lot of counseling, so she's healed from a lot. And I will tell you that she's. She's a strong girl. So she loves her. Her brothers and sisters. She loves her mom. You know, I think it's kind of difficult at times to be over there, but she limits her time. But yeah, I mean, there's no animosity or anything like that between Jill and I at all. It's just more of like, hey, that's your decision. That. But I realize that's like your immediate family. It's not really mine, so I don't have to invite that back into my life.

Host Nick (41:02)

On that show, I'm always reminding my audience that the word gaslighting is often watered down or misused. You know, someone who's being a little manipulative doesn't necessarily mean they're gaslighting or a couple that's fighting.

Amy Duggar (41:14)

Right.

Host Nick (41:15)

Doesn't mean someone's gaslighting the other person. But in your case, it really seems like real gaslighting was happening. Is there any time where your anxiety was at a point where you truly questioned your own reality? And can you describe what that situation was like?

Amy Duggar (41:33)

Yeah, I can tell you. I tried over and over and over to have a relationship with my dad, and I threw a big, like, Hail Mary and I invited him to counseling. And we were in the counseling studio area for, like, five hours, like, a long time. And in that time, you know, I told him everything. How I felt, how he made me feel. I apologized, he apologized. Everything was great. And it was like one of the heartbreaking things that's in my book. But the next morning, I remember calling him and being like, thank you so much for going with me to counseling and working through things. And he went ballistic, you guys, and was like, what are you talking about? I never was there. And I was like, like. And in my mind, I was like. He literally made me feel like I was crazy and that, like, I dream, like, dreamt it up. And so I was like, wait a second. And he was like, if I was there and I went to counseling with you. Where are the notes, Amy? Where are the notes? Where are my notes? Like, I never went, you're psycho. You've lost your mind, like, all these things. And I was like, like, I don't have any notes. You know, like, I. You really, really had to. I. It sounds crazy how someone can do that, but they really did have, like, they can have a power over you, and it's. Yeah, it's wild.

Co-host Natalie (42:48)

I have to say. I had some trauma happen to me as a child, and I feel like having my own daughter has been very healing for me.

Amy Duggar (42:55)

Yes.

Co-host Natalie (42:56)

Has that kind of been healing for you as well? And being able to parent in a way that you want to parent, parent and you wish you were parented.

Amy Duggar (43:03)

Yes. No. Parenting is, like, my favorite thing on the planet. I have a 5 year old. Like I was telling you earlier, Natalie, he has a mullet. He does his own thing. He's like an old soul and, like, loves, like, old classic rock and, like, I just. I love molding him and teaching him and teaching him about, you know, just self control and the goodness of, like, people and how to be genuine and kind and honest. Honest. Yeah. The things that are going to make him just a great man someday.

Co-host Natalie (43:31)

What is the relationship like between your mom and him, your son.

Amy Duggar (43:34)

So, yeah, our nana lives with us and so they are best friends. They're at Chuck E. Cheese right now, just living it up. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They have the best time. They really do. And it really is like full circle because it has, like a healing journey. And my mom's journey is, is she's safe and she's fine and she's so much healthier now than she ever has been. And so to see that is just, just. It's everything my heart could ever want.

Co-host Natalie (43:58)

That's really beautiful.

Amy Duggar (43:58)

Yeah.

Host Nick (43:59)

Have any of your cousins to this day received any financial compensation for being on the show?

Amy Duggar (44:05)

Not that I know of. Crazy.

Host Nick (44:06)

And do you know how any of them feel about that?

Amy Duggar (44:09)

Nope. They. So IVLP teaches that you are happy smiling all the time and that other emotions are not of God. So you cannot ask questions. You can't, you know, be annoyed, worry, anxious, nothing.

Host Nick (44:24)

Have none of the 19 kids, like, broken, broken away from.

Amy Duggar (44:27)

So Ginger is in LA and living her life and I think she's, she's gotten away from it probably a little bit. Jill has, but there's only, there's only two daughters that really have. Wow.

Host Nick (44:40)

And the rest are, if you ask.

Amy Duggar (44:44)

Me, probably still real thick in it.

Host Nick (44:46)

Wow.

Amy Duggar (44:46)

Yeah.

Host Nick (44:47)

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Amy Duggar (48:24)

Oh, my gosh. At a bar. I said, love at first sight. No, actually, he was a complete, like, like, jerk. Like, I'm not kidding. He. I is when, like, ruffles were really in style way back in the day. And I had like a, like, okay, I had peacock earrings on, like the feather earrings, you know, and like a ruffle shirt. And he was like, oh, my gosh. Like, he was a friend of a friend. So I didn't know him, but I kind of knew he was around. And he was just like, what the hell are you wearing? Is how he started the conversation. What did you say?

Co-host Natalie (48:57)

Were you like.

Amy Duggar (48:59)

I was just like, okay. Like, here's a guy that's, like, totally honest. I was like, do I look bad? And he was like, I mean, kinda like, I can't tell what the heck's going on. And I was like, okay, that's kind of refreshing. Like, you know, so we just became friends for, like, six years and best friends. Oh, gosh, like 24.

Host Nick (49:20)

So you were filming the show?

Amy Duggar (49:22)

No, not 24. 22. 22.

Host Nick (49:24)

Were you on the show?

Amy Duggar (49:25)

I was, yes. Yeah. And he. He had no idea who I was. He had no clue. He was like, I don't know.

Host Nick (49:31)

How did you bring it up?

Amy Duggar (49:32)

Oh, my gosh. Okay, this is funny. I. I mean, I told him. I was just like, yeah. He's like, what do you do? And I'm like, well, it's a long story. I was like, you know, on this TV show. And he's like, what? That's crazy. And so I actually invited him to my cousin's house, and I didn't give him any, like, rules. Like, he's very, like, no filter kind of guy. Like, you guys would love him. You guys would get along so well. But he walks in and he's talking to the. To the boys about cars and engines and Stuff. And like, I said, I didn't give him any rules. And so the color black is, like, very wrong in their eyes. Like, it's like a very, like a devilish color that you can't wear. It's right. Yeah, Like, I'm a walking sin right now. Yeah, yeah, I'm a problem.

Host Nick (50:13)

Is this, like, you being rebellious?

Amy Duggar (50:16)

I mean, she's wearing all that inwardly. I didn't even realize I did that. But, yes, I will take it. It.

Host Nick (50:22)

But really, like, what about a funeral?

Amy Duggar (50:24)

Yeah, no, I mean, I think at funeral it's navy blue is what they wear, but they don't pop of color. Yeah, yeah, just a little bit of something. But, yeah, it's not really.

Co-host Natalie (50:33)

Did he wear black?

Amy Duggar (50:35)

No, but so, like, one of the little girls, and they all start with J's, but one of the little girls was like, Dylan, like, so innocent and so sweet. Was like, what's your favorite color? And he was like, black. And they were like. And they just, like, stop in their tracks. And they were like. And they already think, like, I'm wild and crazy and all these things. And now Dylan likes the color black. And I remember kicking him underneath the seat, like, under the table, like, shut up. And he was just like, what? The color black is sexy. The color black is sexy. Like, I was like, I literally cannot, like, handle it. And so from that on, like, they just were like, dylan is over there.

Co-host Natalie (51:16)

Like, did they welcome him back to their house with open arms?

Amy Duggar (51:20)

Well, I mean, I think maybe a couple times, but it was different. Like, they wouldn't allow us to really have more than, like, surface level conversations. And. And then. And then after we actually got married, then it was the scandals that came out, so it's like they barely knew him because then we just completely separated ourselves completely from it.

Host Nick (51:42)

Is your maiden name Duggar? And is that because you have no relationship with your father? Because you're. It's your mom who's.

Amy Duggar (51:50)

Yes. Yeah.

Host Nick (51:50)

Sisters with Jimbo, right?

Amy Duggar (51:52)

Yeah, that's my maiden name. It's just Duggar. I just had my mom's maiden name and so.

Co-host Natalie (51:57)

Oh, because they weren't married.

Amy Duggar (52:00)

Because they weren't married.

Co-host Natalie (52:00)

So you took your mom?

Amy Duggar (52:01)

Yeah. People think that, like, I changed my name for fame or that I, like, want to ride that, like, coattail, and I'm just like, oh, my God.

Host Nick (52:08)

Well, it's funny because the reason I wanted to bring it up is almost the opposite again. My family's overall for having 13 people. We're a close family. I mean, I'm Closer with some siblings than others. As a whole, we're generally pretty close. We're all very different in a lot of ways. I have siblings who are on the complete polar opposites of the political spectrum. It's always funny when people in the public eye, well, it's like, well, their sister or brother said this and as if, like, they must be one in the same.

Amy Duggar (52:40)

Right.

Host Nick (52:40)

You know, and. And just because you're in the same family, you can be very different people.

Amy Duggar (52:46)

Yeah.

Host Nick (52:46)

You know, as close as my family is, I go months, you know, not talking to some of my siblings. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're getting into.

Amy Duggar (52:54)

Right.

Host Nick (52:55)

I don't know if someone's, like, being radicalized by whatever the shit's going on on the Internet. Like, what if one of my siblings did some crazy, horrible. I don't think they would. I mean, just for anyone. Listen, you know what I'm saying? But you're just never know. And so my question to you is, like having the Duggar name, knowing that it is now, in many people's eyes, attached to some very terrible things. One being your cousin Josh.

Amy Duggar (53:20)

Yes.

Host Nick (53:21)

Have you ever thought of just, like, not wanting that attached to your name or. Or do you feel like people treat you in a way where it's like, if they find out you're a Duggar, where it's just like, you almost feel the judgment that they would pass on to that family?

Amy Duggar (53:37)

No, I. Okay, good question. I think because my name is Duggar, I'm not changing it. I mean, that's just who I am. But at the same time, I have been very outspoken from the very beginning, from the moment that scandals started happening and things like that. And so the whole book is about how disruption in a family pattern, any kind of healthy or any unhealthy relationships, you have to, like, change that. Right. And so, I mean, that's my goal in prayer, is that the people that read this book can just, like, you put it in their own lives. Like, you know, just embrace the fact that, like, your family might be crazy or what you're around is pretty terrible, but you can put things in order and put your life back on the peace track, you know?

Co-host Natalie (54:22)

Yeah, yeah.

Host Nick (54:23)

You're still a religious. You consider yourself a religious person. I'm curious is how were you able to maintain a relationship with God and have a strong religious foundation? Because a lot of people in your position, people who experience religious trauma of some kind, often have a very negative opinion about religion and A very negative connotation with it. But that's not something that's happened to you. And yet you speak in your book about how your faith has allowed you on this healing journey, and you've really leaned on that. That despite some of the religious trauma that you've witnessed and experienced.

Amy Duggar (55:02)

Yeah, So I believe that, like, in the Bible, literally, it says God is not the author of confusion. And when I think about all the craziness that's gone on in this world and then the things that's gone on in, like, my family, the things that I've had to heal from and learn from and all of that, there is confusion everywhere I look. Right? There's just all of that. So you have to disrupt it. You do. And so I. I just have this whole, like. Like, filter now in my life where if like, whoever I'm around, whatever I watch, whatever music I listen to, whatever, does it bring me peace? And that's just my question. And even if you're not religious, like, you know, like, you. Whatever, you can still ask, like, okay, I still. You probably still want a peaceful life, right? Like, you still want, like, you don't want chaos, you know? And so for me, I just. I just take that in, and that's just what I. I think of every, like, every second of the day. It's just like, does it bring me peace? And, like, what kind of direction can I take from here to be a better person?

Host Nick (55:59)

You've talked about how your relationship with your husband is something that you've leaned on to get through all this. How have you and your husband formed a positive relationship and healthy relationship, given your background and your upbringing?

Amy Duggar (56:14)

I don't think it has anything to do with it. You know, the way we respect each other, the way we have mutual, like, care. And I, like, genuinely love him, like, with every being of my body. We've been married for 10 years, and he drives me crazy. And he's. He's a mess sometimes, and he drives me out, like, out of my mind. But he's, like my best friend, you know, he's the rock. He's the one I can, like, cry to and. And just be myself with a hundred percent. And so I don't think it mattered what my last name would be. I think we would probably still find love with each other and. And be happy.

Host Nick (56:50)

You talk a lot about gentle parenting. Well, tell me about it, because I'm not all that familiar with it. And you talk about it as a way kind of almost to rebel against your childhood because you Came from a very kind of authoritative upbringing. I have my doubts about gentle parenting because for me, again, I again, grew up in a very religious household. I'm not religious today. I respect my upbringing, and I'm very grateful of the upbringing I had. And I do very much think it's important, you know, to honor my parents. Respect my parents. And I had a great. A level of respect for adults and authority, and. And I think that has really allowed me to honestly, like, have the success I've had and things like that. And when it comes. When I hear about gentle parenting, I. I feel like it includes a lack of, like, respect for authority in adults and.

Amy Duggar (57:46)

Well, what would you do in Little River? Like, how do you discipline?

Host Nick (57:51)

Well, she's only a year and a half, But I will say it's, like, funny enough that, like, before we had River Nat, we would always joke about who's gonna be the, you know, the tough cop and who is gonna be the nice one. And now he'd always say that I would. You know, I would be a softie, but I'm pretty sure I'm gonna have to be.

Amy Duggar (58:10)

You're gonna be the one.

Host Nick (58:12)

The one. Her and river have such a bond, and there's such a connection there, and I just really don't want to have spoiled children.

Amy Duggar (58:19)

No, I get that.

Host Nick (58:20)

And I really want my kids to have a level of respect for authority in adults. And I do think a big part of childhood is working through adversity and being challenged and going through hard times. And I think as parents, especially privileged parents, we're very lucky and very privileged sometimes. Some of the things I had to go through as a child is because my parents are like, we can't afford that shit. You know, they had, you know.

Amy Duggar (58:50)

Oh. Kids now are like, yeah, they are.

Host Nick (58:52)

If we wanted to, we're lucky enough to. We could give our daughter anything.

Amy Duggar (58:57)

I hear you.

Host Nick (58:57)

So we have to choose to say no, you know, and things like that. So back to gentle parenting for the skeptics out there.

Amy Duggar (59:06)

Yeah.

Host Nick (59:07)

How have you incorporated it in a way that you feel is positive?

Amy Duggar (59:11)

Oh, my goodness. Okay. There's lots of things. So I. We don't live in spanking. Spanking is something that I will not tolerate. I told Dylan. I was like, I love you. If you cheat, I'm. I'm out. And if you spank, I'm out. Like, I can't do it because it's still hitting. You're still hitting a child? I just. I think that's crazy and so sad. But, yeah, I Just feel like I just get down on their level, you know? Like, when Dax does anything wrong, I'm just like, hey, buddy, like, listen, like, I've never been a mom before you. I've never, like, had a five girl before. Let's, like, work together as a team, and, like, let's figure this out. So if you need a break, like a, you know, just have a seat, whatever, relax. And so I just. I feel like talking really. Like, he's like, oh, I understand. Like, I don't have to yell. I don't have to, like, pretend that I'm this princess or that I've got everything figured out because he's only five. So ask me this when he's 12 and when he's 20, do you feel like.

Host Nick (60:07)

I think other. Again, a lot of times people, we criticize things we don't fully understand. So I'll recognize that, like, I haven't spent a lot of time studying gentle parenting tactics. I think there's a perception out there that parents who gentle parent negotiate with their children rather than at times be like, my dad's favorite line was, because I said so.

Amy Duggar (60:33)

Oh, cringe.

Host Nick (60:36)

Well, I'm. I honestly think.

Amy Duggar (60:38)

Is that. You think so?

Host Nick (60:39)

Well, I think. Yeah, there's a. Yeah, I really do. I think children need to know that their parents are in charge and there is a level of respect and authority they have to have. And I think if you don't respect your parents, how can you possibly, in the real world respect your boss or your elders or think people who don't care, like, who don't love you. Like, we love our children, you know, who, at the end of the day, don't have a difficult, you know, know, we'll have a difficult time, you know, punishing our. Our children because we love them and we don't want to see them sad or cry, but, you know, deep down, we know what's good for them.

Amy Duggar (61:16)

Right.

Host Nick (61:17)

The world's not going to give a shit, you know, And I, Yeah, I do think that is important to a certain degree where I don't. Oh, life doesn't always have to explain to you, like, why the world is the way it is.

Amy Duggar (61:30)

I think because my cousins are, like, they. In my opinion, they blindly follow. They did do, and it led them to abuse. It led them in a wrong way. For me, I don't want my son just to obey because I say so. I want him to ask questions. I literally tell him, like, hey, buddy, if I ask you to do something and you don't understand it, ask Me? Why? I am fine with explaining.

Co-host Natalie (61:53)

It is so crazy how. And I see it with river, and she's only 19 months old, but, like, we'll be walking in, you know, in the parking lot, into a store, and she wants to get down, and it's like. And I'll be like, no, no, no, no. And she's. And then I'm like, wait, look at all the cars. Look how many cars there are. It's dangerous.

Amy Duggar (62:10)

You can't get down.

Co-host Natalie (62:11)

And then she's like, oh, okay.

Amy Duggar (62:12)

Oh, okay.

Co-host Natalie (62:12)

It's like, once you explain why they can't do something, why you're saying no, then they understand. They're like, oh, okay, that makes sense. It's not just because I. You don't want me to.

Amy Duggar (62:21)

Yes. No, exactly. I also explained to. To Dax, also, I'm like, hey, buddy, I'm never Mom and dad and Nana. People that are in your circle, the people that love you the most, will never ask you to do something that's going to hurt you or put you in, like, Harm's life way, ever. Yeah. And so he's like, okay. So I'm like. But I tell him. I'm like, if you want to know why, like, you have to go clean your room, I'll tell you why. Like, you can ask. And I'm like, very open and upfront with them because when I was little, I couldn't ask why, and I would just do things and being yelled at or, you know, being like, you know, annoying and be like, oh, just because I said so. And I'd be like, okay, so I still respect. I want him to respect for sure. I want him to, like, know authority and all of that. But. But he can ask why.

Host Nick (63:02)

Well, what happens after they ask why? You explain why. And then let's say, like, six months go by, you tell them what to do. You've already explained why.

Amy Duggar (63:11)

Right.

Host Nick (63:11)

And they go, why do I have to do that? Do you explain it again?

Amy Duggar (63:15)

I do. I know that sounds crazy, probably, but, like, yes, I think you can do it in, like, a strict way of. Just be like, I've already told you. You have. And I always tell them, you have a choice. You don't have to obey and there's consequences. I take away a toy, you don't get to have a play date. Like, there's always something that can come up. You can choose the right way and you can obey and make this really easy. And so, yeah, there's like two different ways to do it. I mean, yeah, I've seen a Lot of, like, strictness, harshness growing up. And so I just didn't want that to continue in the generation to come for him.

Host Nick (63:48)

And that makes a lot of sense. And I think there's, I think for me, everything, there's a balance to everything, right? And totally get a lot what you're saying. I guess just to play devil's advocate with you, because you've kind of acknowledged part of this comes from a level of rebellion. So how do you, when you're parenting your own child, or for all the parents out there who are listening to you and really connect with what you're saying? Because maybe they're parenting, you know, often, right? Like your parents an alcoholic, sometimes you become alcoholic, or sometimes you never touch a drink. You know, it's like usually one or the other, right? You either end up becoming who your parents are if it's extreme, or you very much are against it in a way type of thing. So how do you challenge yourself, acknowledging that you've had your own trauma that you are parenting, not just because you're projecting what's happened to you, knowing that maybe your child's lucky enough to not have experienced what you experience, and they have that love that you're giving them. So how do you make sure that it's not a projection of your own trauma rather than just what's right for the them?

Amy Duggar (64:53)

You ask hard questions. He's so good at what he does. He's so good. This is why people watch and follow you. That's a good question. I, I, okay. Before I took time, before I was pregnant to really educate myself and to really make sure that, like, what I like, why I wanted to be a parent is for the right reasons. Right. And so I've done the healing. I know the trauma that can happen, you know, in, like, the ways around it and the way to protect my child. And now I just am like the mama bear that's gonna do it at all costs. And I think it starts at home. I think it really does. Just how we treat them, how they're respected, you know, how they take care of things will continue in this world as they get older. So I don't know. That's just kind of where I'm at.

Host Nick (65:41)

What's your mom's opinion of her brother?

Amy Duggar (65:44)

So there's a lot in my book about why their relationship is grayed and why she doesn't necessarily trust him anymore.

Host Nick (65:51)

Can you elaborate a little bit more? Just, like, what's her general opinion? Does she think he's a good guy.

Amy Duggar (65:57)

In My opinion, I would think that my mom would probably say no. She's been very hurt by him.

Host Nick (66:03)

D. In your opinion, do you think. If I said your uncle sounds like.

Amy Duggar (66:07)

A monster, in my opinion, I would think that you probably are not. Not far off from that.

Host Nick (66:15)

If I said, do you think your aunt is equally to blame for what's happened with her family, or do you give her grace? Given the extreme ways in which women are expected to operate in this alleged.

Amy Duggar (66:35)

Cult, I would give my aunt some grace because I do feel like she doesn't have a voice. Voice. I really, truly believe that.

Co-host Natalie (66:42)

And are they still a part of this?

Amy Duggar (66:45)

They. They won't probably say it out loud, but more than likely, yes.

Host Nick (66:50)

When you're taught. When you hang out with Jill, what does Jill think of you writing this book?

Amy Duggar (66:55)

First of all, she's 100% supportive of it.

Host Nick (66:58)

Okay.

Amy Duggar (66:58)

She's excited for it.

Host Nick (66:59)

And when you get together with her at this point, is it just like, let's not talk about that. Let's focus on our kids and what's in front of us? Or. Or do you still push back at times when it comes to her connection with her family?

Amy Duggar (67:13)

I don't push back because I know that, like, you know, having your brothers and sisters is important. I didn't have any, so I'm sure it's important. You know, it's that connection that they still want to have. I think she's very careful on how she has those relationships. But no, we have a good time. Like, we. She has three boys. You know, I have. I have an only child. I love one, by the way. Oh, my word. It's the best. Best. And so when they all get together, I think we just focus on, like, quality time now because back then we had. We had relationship. We had a quality time, but it was surface level only. How is the weather? You know, I like your jean skirt, you know, all that kind of stuff. And so it wasn't really. We couldn't ask deep hard topics we have before. We've gotten very deep. She's told me things that I will not repeat. And yeah, we just have that trust and bond.

Host Nick (68:05)

Do you feel like that family has secrets that have not been revealed? Oh, that. Well, are either illegal or people that need to get out for the sake of others.

Amy Duggar (68:18)

I believe that it is a breeding ground for all kinds of crimes. I think that they're not just in my family's house, nothing like that, but just IBLP as a whole. I just don't think it's. It's Healthy in any kind of way. And so, yeah, I believe that in hopefully 5, 10, 20 years, someone else will come forward being a holodisrupter and sharing their story.

Host Nick (68:42)

Has Jim Bob ever been investigated by any authorities?

Amy Duggar (68:44)

Not that I know of.

Host Nick (68:45)

Do you feel like he should be?

Amy Duggar (68:47)

I do, in my opinion, believe that there could be some things that he could definitely be probably looked at for. Wow.

Host Nick (68:56)

I'm assuming you wouldn't feel comfortable with any of your cousins other than Jill. Jill babysitting your child?

Amy Duggar (69:03)

No, I don't think that would ever happen. I. Yes, Jill has. Jill and her family are wonderful. So, yeah, they've watched Dax and they get along great, and I trust her 100%. As far as anyone else watching my child, that is a big no.

Host Nick (69:18)

How. How do you feel? Like, how many of your cousins are re. Are married? Married?

Amy Duggar (69:22)

Oh, gosh, like, half of them, at least.

Host Nick (69:25)

And did they all meet their spouses through this church or, like, how did. How are they able to integrate this very extreme religion in. Into these people's lives?

Amy Duggar (69:36)

Yeah, so they believe that, like, the dads are kind of like the secret agents. They go out and, like, find the women or the daughters, and the dads get together and then are like, oh, I've got a daughter, I've got a son, or, I've got a son, I've got whatever.

Co-host Natalie (69:51)

Like, arranged marriages, and it's kind of.

Amy Duggar (69:53)

Like arranged marriages, and then they court.

Host Nick (69:56)

Many of your cousins are married to people they've been arranged with.

Amy Duggar (69:58)

I mean, to an extent, it's like he, like, sets them up, and then whatever happens, happens. But it's courtship, so you can't kiss until you're married. Can you imagine that?

Host Nick (70:07)

No, No, I can't imagine about her setting up with anyone.

Amy Duggar (70:10)

Right. No, exactly. Yeah. No, I'd have to be like, I don't think so. He asked my uncle. Uncle asked if he could. If he could set up for me when I was, like, 19. And I was like, no. And I told him I was like, I don't want a vanilla cupcake. Like, I need someone who's lived some life that can, like, push back and, like, tell me no. And I found it in the one that, you know, made fun of me.

Host Nick (70:32)

Because, like, you're Jim Dab. Doesn't. He allegedly doesn't believe in tv. Correct.

Amy Duggar (70:38)

Yeah. So tv, the TV world is sinful and evil. And movies. Movies and. Oh, yeah, nothing. Music in general, if there's an offbeat, any kind of offbeat is considered, like, demonic.

Host Nick (70:51)

And how many of your Cousins. Do you feel like watch tv, movies and listen to music?

Amy Duggar (70:56)

Probably like all of them. No, no, no, no. They are very obedient. Like, very obedient. I remember.

Host Nick (71:03)

You really think they all are and not pretending to be.

Amy Duggar (71:06)

No, I really.

Host Nick (71:07)

You don't think so? Some of them, all of them at least have, like, one vice.

Amy Duggar (71:10)

I mean, I don't. I don't think them, like, secretly watching the Bachelor. Like, I don't. I don't think they're doing that because they don't have. They don't have tv. They don't have anything like that. Now, I'm not saying the ones that moved out, they might. Who knows? But I remember when they came to my house one time and they were watching their own show at my house, and we watched their own show. They watched their own show. They were allowed to watch their own show. And everyone was in the living room, you know, everyone on the ground, everyone just hanging out, and one big family. And everyone was talking so much that we forgot that there was a commercial that was shown. And it was a body wash commercial. Oh, boy. Oh, my gosh. You would have thought, like, something terrible has happened. The little girl started crying. We had to put a sheet over the TV during commercials.

Host Nick (71:56)

How do they go out into the real world?

Amy Duggar (71:58)

Okay, billboards. Good question. Yeah. So, yeah, it's right when you think about it, like, for a mall. They refused to go to malls. They would go to the beach at night to, like, to not see nakedness, which is bathing suits and, you know, all the things. They also had a secret word called Nike, like the shoes. And anytime. No, listen. Anytime that there was anything that was ungodly disruptive, anything that was really bad for their eyes. My. The oldest daughters yell Nike. They would go, Nike. And it was like an army. They would go, like, straight down. And they were not allowed to look up until given the clear. That's no lie. And that happened everywhere. Airports.

Host Nick (72:39)

Does this happen on the show?

Amy Duggar (72:40)

Probably. Probably. So you need to look up Nike telling you the Nike word. Yeah, it happened everywhere. Everywhere. It didn't matter what it was.

Co-host Natalie (72:47)

Did any of them ever come to you curious about a life outside of.

Amy Duggar (72:54)

Yes, I taught the girls yes. Yeah. Yeah. They would say they would see, like, little, like, I don't know, like, little glimpses, like, at Walmart with, like, the TV shows, like, movies are playing, you know, like, on the TVs. And they'd be like, amy, what show is that? What is that? And then I would teach the girls, like, secret cheerleading on trampolines. Trying to. Just trying to, like, introduce them to, like, the real world outside of what they've known. I was the one that bought them their first hair straightener because they weren't allowed to, like, cut their hair or anything. And I was like, okay. And so he finally. My uncle finally allowed that. That. It's just. It was just crazy, you know, I was a normal girl, and yet they couldn't do half the things that I did. Wild. I know. Oh, wild. It is wild.

Host Nick (73:36)

What about food? Are there any, like, weird rules around food?

Amy Duggar (73:39)

No. They had. They could have anything, and they ate, like, junk food, and, like, not. Not. Not the greatest quality of food for sure.

Host Nick (73:45)

They couldn't go to Taco Bell, but they could eat Taco Bell, right?

Amy Duggar (73:49)

Yeah, pretty much. They liked ramen noodles a lot.

Host Nick (73:53)

What?

Amy Duggar (73:53)

Because it was cheap. They had a lot of kids, I'm sure. I mean, growing up. Did you have any ramen noodles?

Host Nick (73:58)

Sure.

Amy Duggar (73:58)

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So there was 19 kids. So, like, that was easy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Host Nick (74:05)

Do you ever. I mean, so many people who are victims of any type of abuse, obviously there's always this period where they. Again, they're in denial. They're hiding it from the outside world. And then many victims feel a sense of guilt once they. They come out and come clean and are honest with themselves or just start to heal, especially if there's other victims included. Did you ever experience that in terms of. Once you finally had the epiphany of what you were really experiencing and then of feeling any type of shame and guilt unfairly, and how did you work through that?

Amy Duggar (74:43)

Yeah, I absolutely kind of took it all in. And I was like, is it really that bad? Are you sure? I can't just forgive and move on and invite them back and have. Have Christmas with them and birthdays and the things that I'm missing, You know, I was like, does it really. Do I really have to do that? And then I had to think about my son and. And how abuse isn't a word in their dictionary. It's not something that's defined in the iblp. They don't know what the word abuse means. They have no idea. And so the fact I always. Or I always just put myself and my son, you know, in that kind of area and with those kind of people, and I think, like, I'm not gonna put him near harm. Like, I refuse. I will do everything in my power not to do that. And it stops me every single time from, like, reach out or trying to just, you know, condone the behavior or, like, get rid of the lies and just forget about them and move on and just have everything pretend like everything's happy and shiny. But at this point, I'm. I'm just. I'm done pretending, you know? Good for you. Yeah. Thank you.

Host Nick (75:40)

Do you think they'll. Any of any people in the family will try to get back on tv?

Amy Duggar (75:45)

Oh, I'm sure I'm. I mean, I'm sure. I don't know if it'll happen, but.

Host Nick (75:50)

Well, you know, tv.

Co-host Natalie (75:51)

Do you think they love.

Amy Duggar (75:52)

Yes, they do.

Co-host Natalie (75:53)

Do you think they feel a certain way that they. I've pretty much lost all respect from anyone. I feel like the, you know, the nation kind of sees through the Duggar family at this point.

Amy Duggar (76:03)

Yeah. I mean, I think pride goes before a fall, and I think they definitely took a pretty large, large, large fall, but I have no idea how they feel. I mean, I haven't spoken to them in years, so I'm just looking at it now from, like, an outside opinion. But I found out all. All about the scandal reels, like, through national television.

Co-host Natalie (76:23)

I was about to say, I want. Yeah, if you're, like, scrolling on.

Amy Duggar (76:25)

Yeah. I saw a magazine just in the. The aisle, you know, at the store, and I like, like, look, like, zeroed in on it. And I was like, oh, my gosh, that's my family's house.

Host Nick (76:37)

Like, what is happening other than Josh's crimes? What are the other things that have come out about them?

Amy Duggar (76:43)

I mean, that's pretty much it.

Host Nick (76:45)

Okay.

Amy Duggar (76:46)

But it was just the fact of, like. Like, the girls weren't protected. Right.

Host Nick (76:50)

Do you feel like they were like the. You know, like nowadays you have influencers and parent influencers. You know, Natalie and I have our own conversations. You know, when river was born, we were these, like, very excited parents, and we have this platform and, you know, we were showing her face and things like that. And we, you know, we influence at times or whatever, and, you know, we try to have our own boundaries and rules with what we want to do. And certainly everyone has their opinion. But knowing full well, I know if you look, anyone who looks at their phone, especially if you're any type of influencer or have a social following, the world of we're in a selfie age, and if you're very honest with what your photo looks like, you might have 20 selfies before you post the one that you like. And when you think about that and you see these parent influencers out there and. And people who are showing their kids on any type of public platform Knowing you're talking about just. Again, it might be a reality TV show, but you might have to repeat things and do things over. What is your opinion about what you see out there? And parent influencers who, you know, it's just like, there are certain things I'll see, and I'll be like, I know that kid had to do that, that 50 times before they got it right. You know, where kids are repeating lines and doing bits.

Amy Duggar (78:16)

Yeah. Lip syncing. Lip syncing. I've seen that. I don't like it.

Host Nick (78:21)

And you know that parents are monetizing it, and even if they are setting up some kind of college fund for their kids, it's just like, it's. It feels a really icky to do. Yeah. What. What.

Amy Duggar (78:34)

What do you think about all that? So Daxton models for Sam's Club. He. He's like a part of the modeling world. It's kind of crazy, but. But, yeah, But I tell him, like, hey, this is up to you. If you want to do it, great. If not, we can stop anytime. It's all up to you. And he's like, okay, no, I like it. I like having a job. And so we actually, like, have that money for his college and whatever he would like to do when he gets older. And that money's not being spent, not one dime. So. Which is great. But, yeah, as far as, like, Instagram and all that, I am so conflicted because I obviously want to show him because he's my son and I'm proud. And then I also want to keep him safe. And I have to go. It's hard to believe that there's, like, sick monsters out there that, you know, want to look at our kids in a. In a really sick way. I think there's like a.

Co-host Natalie (79:20)

Whatever you post of your child, like, that's someone's interest.

Amy Duggar (79:24)

Right.

Co-host Natalie (79:24)

You know, and it's like you scroll on TikTok and you see these videos and you see the amount of, like, saves that a video of, like, a kid has. And it's like, that just. Just can't be.

Amy Duggar (79:34)

That can't be good. It can't be.

Host Nick (79:36)

We would run into people in public and they'd be like, I recognized River. And we were like, okay, okay, yeah.

Amy Duggar (79:43)

Do you guys put a heart on her face?

Host Nick (79:45)

We started recently. We would. Yeah, we only post the back of her head.

Co-host Natalie (79:48)

Back of her head. Or I zoom in a lot on photos and, like, we'll just crop her head out of it.

Amy Duggar (79:53)

We've been talking about that. We don't want to Keep Dax in a bubble. We don't want him to, like, live in a bubble. But it is our, you know, our job to protect.

Host Nick (80:00)

It's tough, right? Because it's not to criticize anyone who's not covering. Yeah, not at the moment, but it's like, it's, it's a. Yeah. And there's some, there's so many times we'll take a video or a photo of her and we like, we want to share, you know. You want to share? Yeah, because it's so cute.

Co-host Natalie (80:16)

And then I will get, you know, when I do post a photo of the back of her head or whatever, I'll get a couple of messages being like, I miss seeing her sweet face. And I'm like, like, well, that's not helping. Well, that's, yeah, like, you shouldn't miss seeing my child, like, sorry, that child just like, validating.

Host Nick (80:32)

And I bet 99% of them are well intentioned, lovely people. But there is a little level of discomfort because I definitely, you know, I'm, I'm a child of the 80s and all the predators are online, they're not in the streets. And, and it's. What's crazy is nowadays, like, you know, you don't, you don't ever hear about parents letting their kids, like, ride their bike a few miles to their friend's house. I did that as a kid.

Amy Duggar (80:55)

Oh, it changed completely.

Host Nick (80:58)

And I did too.

Co-host Natalie (80:59)

I like to think that.

Amy Duggar (81:00)

And then I'm like, yeah, yeah. So before I wrote this book, Daxton had his own Instagram because he modeled. He did stuff. I posted it. I will tell you. He had like 65, 000 followers. And I thought like, oh, that's really cute. That's fun. And then I was like, dang, I hate this. And here's the thing. I didn't want to delete what was there, but I put it on private and I spent. No kidding, you guys, I. I probably unfollowed 300 to 400 people a night. Night. Like, I made it at homework for me. I was like, I know I've got till this amount of time to get all of this done, but I didn't want to delete the memories and stuff. So I took my time. I deleted 65, 000 people. And then I put it. I was like, I'm not kidding. It was crazy. Dylan thought I was nuts, but I was like, I want to protect him everywhere I can. And so I did that on his Instagram. And now looking back at, like, things I post, I'm like, oh, I gotta watch. Watch it. Because you just never know.

Co-host Natalie (81:59)

It's hard.

Amy Duggar (81:59)

It's so. The world has changed.

Co-host Natalie (82:01)

If the world has changed. And it's so, you know, so many opinions out there and you don't ever know really what's. You know, you think like, oh, this is only going to like my friends.

Amy Duggar (82:11)

I know.

Co-host Natalie (82:12)

You know, and then you're like, I.

Amy Duggar (82:13)

Think, like, only like, there's good. I know there's. I know there's terrible people, but in my inner circle, there's good people. You know, there's like genuine people. And so you think like, everyone is. And it's really sad that it's just. It is so hard. I feel that as a mom. I do. I'm sorry, Natalie. I'm right there with you. Yeah, it's hard.

Host Nick (82:33)

Well, Amy, I appreciate your time. This has been a lot of fun. Was it. Was it as scary as you thought?

Amy Duggar (82:38)

No. We could do this anytime.

Host Nick (82:40)

Well, your book is called Holy Disruptor. It'll be out October 14th. I'm assuming you can pre order now wherever you pre order books.

Amy Duggar (82:47)

Yeah.

Host Nick (82:48)

And I know and audiobook. Well, the pre orders matter. So if you want to support Amy and get your hands on this book, it's very fascinating. I know everyone who's listening to this show is fascinated with this type of content. It's an incredible story and one that is also filled with hope and kind of endurance. And we all have some sort of baggage that we have to work through.

Amy Duggar (83:11)

And so we can disrupt it and have a peaceful life.

Host Nick (83:14)

Thank you for sharing your story, Amy.

Amy Duggar (83:16)

Thanks for having me.

Co-host Natalie (83:17)

That was great.

Host Nick (83:18)

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