Nick (2:26)

So you said, I, I want a divorce, I'm going to file tomorrow.

Renee (2:30)

Well, no, it was a lot leading up to that. Probably like the prior month. From there, I was like hinting that, like, I don't Think this is right. And I would ask him, like, what are reasons, like, you think we should stay together? It would never be, like, any good reasons besides, like, we have kids and. Which is a great reason. But.

Nick (2:48)

No. Yeah.

Renee (2:50)

Yeah. But if I'm not happy, then I don't know. So basically, yeah. He just didn't take it well.

Nick (2:56)

He didn't take it well?

Renee (2:57)

No.

Nick (2:57)

Did he try to convince you to change your mind?

Renee (2:59)

Kind of. So he had me talk to one of his family members on the phone. I guess she didn't realize how much I had thought about this and thought about every outcome. And so that was his, like, kind of first way to try to get me to stay, I guess. And when I talked to her, she was like, oh, you know, it sounds like you really have your mind made up. Like, I didn't realize, you know, it was this far along. Or. I don't think he thought it was this far along either, even though we talked about it every day, literally every fight. And.

Sam (3:27)

Yeah.

Renee (3:28)

So then, like, there'd be times where he would be begging me. Like, there was. I tell him he put on a performance because that's what it felt like, him trying to basically try to get me to stay with him. And I didn't. I don't know. I was just, like, not feeding into it. And then the next day, it would be like, the silent treatment. He wouldn't try at all. He'd be like, you know, it is a good idea. And I'm like, okay. Um, but he was refusing to sign for 30 days. And then after the 20th day of asking him to sign, I basically, I was like, you know what? Whatever. He'll sign when he can sign. So he signed on 30th day. And then that's when I was like, oh, wait, but. And then the next day, I'm like, no, I do want to leave him still. So it's just. It's just hard.

Nick (4:05)

So when you say my husband gives me the ick, like.

Sam (4:08)

Yeah.

Nick (4:08)

So are you both toxic people?

Renee (4:13)

I don't think. I mean, he would say otherwise. I don't think I am.

Nick (4:16)

But you think he is.

Renee (4:18)

I'm. Yeah, I'm sure I have, like, toxic tendency. Like, I don't know.

Nick (4:22)

So I'm just out of curiosity, just short answer. What do you think makes him toxic? But you're. You.

Renee (4:26)

Not just our past. Like, we've been together for six years, married for three.

Nick (4:31)

Okay.

Renee (4:31)

There were so many red flags when I met him. Controlling, didn't want me to go out, which, you know, I was 23 still. I kind of want to go out. I also was bartending when he met me.

Nick (4:42)

Wait, when you say you're still 23 but you like you're. How old are you now?

Renee (4:46)

I'm 29 now. But I'm just saying like when I was 23, like of course I wanted to go out. Like I don't want to now I have kids. But like, I don't know, I just, there were things that we would fight about. He'd call me names, every name in the book. Stuff that like I just can't get over. And as I'm getting older I realize like how wrong so many of our fights were. Just like how he would treat me. And we did break up at one point around the three year mark.

Nick (5:07)

What would he say about you?

Renee (5:08)

Oh, he would say, I mean, I don't know, it's just been a toxic relationship. Truly like from I guess both ends. But like honestly the first half of a relationship with me, like begging him to just even hang out with me and like I just, I couldn't understand why he was calling me all these names and why he was acting this way. And truly like I don't think I, I guess I was toxic in a sense because I stayed like I stayed around and then we moved in quickly like after I met him. So we just moved really fast. And then I looked at him like he was this put together 30 year old guy. He seemed so much older than me at the time but like how old is he now? 37.

Nick (5:46)

37.

Renee (5:49)

So I don't know, I just, I want to make sure I'm making the right choice. Our fights really would get so out of hand and like there'd be times where, you know, we wouldn't talk for two months when we live in the same house because of his silent treatments like crazy. And like I, I've gone to my parents house to stay with them.

Nick (6:06)

Do you think he's emotionally abusive?

Renee (6:08)

Oh yeah, I think, yeah, for sure. I mean the first like yeah, five years of our relationship. Absolutely. And then like the last year I've been like really thinking about what I want and I'm like, I know it's not this, like I know there's better out there. Someone who wouldn't treat me this way and like he calls me names sometimes in front of my kids and like I just don't like that.

Nick (6:29)

Um, so yeah, I don't know, these aren't really icks.

Renee (6:32)

Well, I don't want to be intimate with him and like I Was like, trying to figure out I wouldn't want.

Nick (6:38)

To be intimate with someone who called me a name too, or belittled me or disrespected me in front of my children. I mean, that's.

Renee (6:44)

Yeah.

Nick (6:45)

And, like, is me tripping over myself and Nelly going, that was gross.

Renee (6:50)

Yeah, right? You know, but like, everything he would do would just, like, grossed out. And I'm like, why am I so grossed out? And, like, trying to think. And like, March was. March was the last time I had to stay at my parents because he told me to leave. So I packed up, my two kids, left, went to my parents, and this is an example. He was begging for me to come home. Please don't come home. Please don't come home. I mean, please come home. Please come home. And I'm like, okay, you know what? I stayed for a week at my parents, and then I get back and he prints out separation papers. So, like, it's just how fast his mind changes. And he has separation papers waiting for me. Here, sign these. And I'm like, you were just begging me to come home like four days ago, and now I'm here, and now you have to, like, switch up and print out separation papers. I don't know. He's just making me out to be the villain. And, you know, I explained to the family member that he had me call, like, all these reasons, all these fights over the years just have built up. I just resent him completely. Part of why I get icked out. And. Yeah. I don't know, I feel like it's just. There's six years of it, so it's hard to, like, give you great examples.

Nick (8:00)

Without you give me some good examples. I mean, it just. I mean, you're describing someone who kind of sucks. Yeah.

Renee (8:07)

Like, when there's no connection, like, there's no bond anymore. Like, I don't think. I don't know if there ever was. Before we got married, like two weeks before, he was saying he doesn't want to be with me, calling me names. That was two weeks before. And like, I was fully ready to text everyone, like, hey, we're not getting married anymore. It was a quick put together wedding. I was six months pregnant and I just felt like we had to be married. But, like, our wedding day didn't feel, like, great. It felt wrong. And. Yeah. I don't know, it just hasn't been good.

Nick (8:36)

I don't, you know, I don't. You're not giving me a reason to say maybe you should stay. I mean, it just. You you're describing a situation that I wouldn't want for myself. Or, like, you know, because you described it like, oh, I have the ick for my husband. So, like, I was half expecting you to just be like, I love him and he's a nice guy and all, but, like, I don't know, I just, like, I want more for myself. Or, you know, I just don't feel like I've been able to, like, you know, live for myself. But he's a good dad and, like, you know, like, we're okay and like, I don't. We don't have the best sex life. And like, I don't know, sometimes he's a little icky, but, like, I wasn't sure if I was going to get that. You know, in that case, well, it's like, okay, well, let's. Let's look at the big picture here, and is there a path forward to, like, get more connected? But, like, you're describing someone who's emotionally abusive. Again, not a therapist, and I'm not in a position to diagnose anyone, but, like, I wouldn't want that. I wouldn't want what you're describing for my sister or my daughter. He's emotionally volatile. Regardless, you know, whatever you are doing or not doing, I think even the healthiest of couples are capable of really hurting each other, especially over the course of a marriage. But when there's real love there, it really hurts that person to especially come to grips, even if in moments of, like, you know, maybe sometimes people like, you know, they act out because of their childhood trauma or whatever, you know, which has, like, become so cliche these days, it seems like, but nevertheless, there's truth to it. And maybe they could act out over a period of time where, like, you know, you were a real dick to me for three months or whatever, but there's a snapping out of it, so to speak, and that realization of that person who realizes how much they've really been mistreating or hurting their partner there is, like, I'm, you know, a real act of contrition and a real sense of, like, you know, guilt and, and. And. And a. And a hope of this person to work through it. And you haven't said that your husband begged you to, like, try to work on things. He just begged you not to leave.

Renee (10:45)

It sounds like, yeah, for sure. Like, we can't have a deep conversation ever. Like, it's just not. He's not capable of it. And I've tried, which also makes things difficult. Like, we just don't have that bond. And, like, I'm just so emotionally disconnected from him. But I will say he's a good dad. He is a really good dad, which really makes me feel better when it comes to my kids.

Nick (11:06)

So, I mean, like, it doesn't. Can't be that good of a dad if he talks to his, like, his mother.

Renee (11:11)

I know. Like, it was literally July. No, it was end of June. We had. We were like, on the way home from vacation and he was calling me the most disgusting names in front of them.

Nick (11:21)

It's not that good.

Renee (11:22)

Yeah. So I'm like, I just don't want this. And like, I've conditioned myself to just, like, not react anymore, which has been nice because I used to, like, get emotional about it. And I don't know, like, I'll beg him to have deep conversations. Not necessarily, like, say that flat out, but I'll try to. And it just doesn't happen. And he makes, like, jokes out of everything. Like, he just can't be serious. And. Yeah, I don't know. But he would try to be intimate all the time, and I would just get, like. I don't know, it just made me so uncomfortable. And, like, sometimes I would cave, but, like, it would just be the most uncomfortable situation to where I would have, like, a panic attack, like, literally.

Nick (11:58)

Do you ever feel like he's been sorry for hurting you emotionally?

Renee (12:02)

No, I don't because he doesn't think he did any. Anything wrong.

Nick (12:05)

So I don't know, like, give me an example of a disgusting thing he said to you or called you a.

Renee (12:10)

Stupid in a dumb. That was in.

Nick (12:14)

And so regardless of what you did, he's not sorry?

Renee (12:18)

No, no. Like, I would even say, like, you said that in front of my kids. And he'd be like, well, you said this. And like, all I wanted him to do was help me clean my kids off while you're in this hotel room. Like, I. They had spaghetti. I wanted him to help clean me clean off. And he, like, went off. So. Yeah, I mean, stuff like that. Like when we were on, like when I was first pregnant with my first. We traded in my car, got a new car, and we weren't married yet, so it's not considered marital property. We were on the way home and we start fighting and he starts calling me all these names and he's like, well, guess what, you don't have a car anymore. And he would just always hold the house over my head, the car over my head.

Nick (12:57)

Like, so just out of curiosity, when you were like, second guessing Your decision to get divorced, what part were you second guessing? Other than the kids?

Renee (13:05)

The. The fact that it's easier and financially easier and, like, the name calling isn't as bad as it used to be because I'm not the one who's, like, begging him to, like, hang out with me anymore. I'm not. I just don't care anymore. Like, I truly.

Nick (13:18)

Yeah. I mean, this is. This isn't a life, you know? I mean, I don't know. What you're describing sounds pretty bad. It sounds like you're a prisoner, an emotional prisoner.

Renee (13:27)

Yeah.

Nick (13:28)

And this is coming from a person. Like, since being a dad, I am so grateful of the relationship Natalie and I have and work on and that we both care very much and value our relationship to the degree that we can be parents and what we can provide for our daughter. And I feel that from her, and I think she feels that from me.

Renee (13:47)

Yeah.

Nick (13:47)

And I think parents, couples, should do whatever they can to make it work for, you know, the family unit, because it's so precious. But what you're describing is a very helpless situation where there doesn't seem to be much of a path forward. And it sounds like you're dealing with someone who, again, not a therapist, but sounds kind of emotionally abusive and mean. That is not a safe and healthy environment for anyone.

Renee (14:13)

Right.

Nick (14:13)

And you're only 29.

Renee (14:16)

My fear is that I'm gonna stick it out and then wake up 10 years from now and be 40 and then, like, have to start over then, like.

Nick (14:24)

Yeah, that's not my. My fear for you. Already filed for divorce. I. I mean, I. I'm. You're not gonna hear from me. Maybe you should reconsider. Um, sounds like you made the right decision. I think you. You. You're not fear for you, but, like, advice I would give you is, like, definitely take some time to heal. I think people who are prone to sticking in these types of relationships that you. For much longer than it sounds like you should have, I think are prone to, like, attract those types of men. And I think you have some healing to do, and I think you should, you know, work on yourself and be very mindful of the men that you date when you are single and his type of behavior and volatility. I think you've become way too comfortable with, like, how. What. You know, no one listening is like, maybe she. I don't know, maybe she should stay. Nothing you are saying, it sounds horrific what you're dealing with. Right. But you have normalized it. You've become numb to It. You are capable of surviving through it, and I would want you to look into that. I think you might be prone to feeling a spark with toxic men.

Renee (15:40)

I hope not. Like.

Nick (15:42)

Well, many of us are. We. I think we're all capable of that. And I think someone who might present is healthy, might come across to you as. Unexciting.

Renee (15:52)

Yeah. Boring. I was worried about that too.

Nick (15:56)

And for the sake of yourself and your kids, I would. I would. I would be very careful about who you date.

Renee (16:01)

Yeah, like, when I think about it, I'm like, oh, I'm totally ready to, like, date, like, now. Because I've been so over this relationship for so long, and I've just, like, stuck through it. But I do realize that I shouldn't do that probably, and figure other things out first. But I don't know. It's just been a long time coming, and I've always known it would eventually end. I just didn't know when. And I feel like once I've been. I've become more, like, financially dependent on my own because it used to be him telling me that I. I'll have nothing and no one will want me and everyone hates me and, like, all this stuff.

Nick (16:34)

I think you're him signing it and you getting the. Oh, I think that is a normal reaction. I don't think that means that you made the wrong decision. I just think it's, like, more real, I guess. Yeah, it's becoming real. And that can be scary. You are entering into the unknown. That's scary. And in your case, as crazy as it sounds, especially maybe to the people listening, this is your normal. And, you know, I just, like, learned.

Renee (17:01)

To not react to it anymore. I would literally just let him say, what do you need to say? Say all his names. And I would just, like, look at him until he's done. Like when I used to be crying and, like, begging him to stop calling me names, I've completely like, yeah, so shift.

Nick (17:14)

Did you make that clear to whoever called you on his behalf, how he treats you? Are other people aware?

Renee (17:19)

Yeah, I completely made it aware. And then part is that, well, she acted like she understood, and then I. It was probably like, a week after I filed, and he was drunk, passed out on the couch, and his phone was just, like, sitting there on the counter nicely. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna peek through it just for fun to see.

Nick (17:40)

Like, that's your toxic trait.

Renee (17:42)

I know, I know. And I've done that many times, but I always find something out when I look at it. So like, why would. I don't know. Anyway, so I see a group conversation between two of his family members and him. I was expecting to see, like, friends talking bad about me. Like, you know, group chat guys. No, I didn't see that. It was his family. And they were basically like, he was just lying after lie after lie. Like, I'm emotionally unstable. His family was like, is she even emotionally stable enough to care for those kids? Her family is white trash. And they're not. So I don't know. And he would just say stuff like such an. Like they just had nothing to grasp onto. So, like, they were just pulling from everywhere. And they're like, he said that she buys all these processed foods. And like, it's just bizarre. Like, just bizarre.

Nick (18:39)

What are you doing to protect yourself? Do you have a good lawyer?

Renee (18:43)

So that's another thing. Oh, and they were also trying to say that they want me to, like, not have any rights to my kids. And I'm like, that's just crazy. And when I read these, I was like, shaking because they were just so insane and saying stuff like, I'm going to hate my kids one day. I'm going to blame them for how my life turned out. Like, just like, crazy crazy. All because I don't want to be with them. Like, literally all because I don't.

Nick (19:03)

Yeah, I mean, well, he's also like, they don't know you. They know him. Like, he's painting a picture, you know? So, like, it's not.

Renee (19:09)

Yeah, I thought they knew me, which was, like, kind of sad because I thought we had, like, decent relationship. I thought I had a decent relationship with both of them. But family, you know, divorce, I guess, brings out everyone's true colors.

Nick (19:20)

But do you have a lawyer?

Renee (19:22)

Okay, so I. He made it clear before I filed, mind you. This was him saying he wants a divorce. So for so long, we might as well not do lawyers. Like, let's not put the kids through that. And it'll be way longer of a process. Literally how he literally said this. And then when I file, he's like, texting his family. I can't believe she doesn't want a lawyer. Like, why isn't she want lawyers? And it's just so sketchy to me. She's up to something. Like, something doesn't sound right. And I brought that to him. I'm like, you were the one that said you didn't want lawyers. You're the one put the idea in my head. And, like, the only reason it sounds good is because it can be done. Quicker.

Nick (19:58)

And, like, I don't think you should trust this person.

Renee (20:00)

I know, I know. All my family is like, why aren't getting a lawyer? Every one of them. But then I'm over here. Like, I can be free of him way sooner if we just.

Nick (20:08)

Do you trust him not to, like, screw you over financially?

Renee (20:11)

I'm sure he will. Like, I'm not trying to get. Like, our house was put into his name 20 days before he got married, so it's technically not marital property, but I could probably get portion of the house, given I was already pregnant and I lived in that house two years prior.

Nick (20:26)

Well, I don't know what state you're in, but you, you definitely have some rights. I mean.

Renee (20:29)

Yeah.

Nick (20:29)

I don't think you should trust this guy. I don't. You know?

Renee (20:32)

Yeah. He thinks I deserve nothing. I don't even deserve a car. I'm, like, just trying to figure out all on my own. Be honest. I do think it might be a mistake to do that. So. I don't know.

Nick (20:41)

I, I. Yeah. Stop making poor decisions for yourself.

Renee (20:44)

Yeah.

Nick (20:44)

And stop trusting this guy. He's giving you every and again, like you're doing the thing. It's like, you know, I go through his phone, I find something every time. Like, stop going through his phone.

Renee (20:53)

Yeah.

Nick (20:54)

And then start accepting the fact that you can't trust him.

Renee (20:58)

Yeah.

Nick (20:58)

Like, validating yourself by going through his phone isn't the way to learn that lesson. You know, justifying going through his phone. It's to stop believing his and then just go protect yourself. Either you both share a lawyer that represents you both in divorce court is legally bound to, like, do what's right for both of you through some kind of mediation or you get a lawyer. But, like, trusting that he's not going to fuck you over and, and not getting any type of representation.

Renee (21:31)

Yeah.

Nick (21:31)

Is definitely not the way to go.

Renee (21:33)

I know. Like, my biggest hurdle right now is I need a car. So, like. Right. You know, he's already said that I'm not getting a car, and I'm not. He's not giving me money for a car.

Nick (21:40)

And I'm like, It's like, you, you, you have rights.

Renee (21:44)

Yeah.

Nick (21:44)

Exercise those rights.

Renee (21:45)

I know. It's just scary.

Nick (21:47)

Don't wait to find out. I mean, like, I don't just, like, don't wait to find out that he's going to fuck you over.

Renee (21:53)

I did talk with a lawyer, and she was basically. I don't know if they're supposed to be so cold or what, but she was Kind of. And the main thing I kind of.

Nick (22:01)

Wanted was, well, lawyers aren't there to be your friends. They're there to be your representation and this. Like, yeah. Your rights and your decisions and give you advice based off of a lack of emotion because you are vulnerable right now because you have share kids together and you might have empathy for him for whatever reason.

Renee (22:21)

I do.

Nick (22:22)

And it's their job to take that out of it. You can get a lawyer and still have the goal to be as fair as he's willing to be. And you can have a lawyer there when he chooses not to be fair to protect you, when he chooses to try to you over.

Renee (22:40)

Right when I found out from the lawyer, because I was like, I wanted primary custody. And she's like, well, if he's good dad, like, you're not getting that. Like, it'll be 50, 50. And then that's when I was like, okay, I don't really care about anything else. Like, I don't need his money. Like, whatever. Like, I'll get child support and, you know, a little bit of alimony. Barely, but.

Nick (22:58)

And that's fine. I mean, I'm not saying you should just go after the guy. I just. Yeah, I wouldn't.

Renee (23:02)

No, I definitely am selling myself short.

Nick (23:04)

I wouldn't trust him.

Renee (23:06)

Yeah, I know.

Nick (23:07)

I wouldn't trust him. He is proven to be spiteful and resentful and to want to make you pay for hurting him. You know, you deciding to file for divorce is hurting him. Whether it's not in a way that, like, you should feel sorry, but maybe his ego or whatever, you know? And I don't think you should trust a person who has shown you.

Renee (23:30)

Right.

Nick (23:31)

A capability to retaliate over nothing. To be kind to you when you're going to divorce them.

Renee (23:38)

Yeah. And, like, now we're in this, like, weird position where he's, like, kind of trying, and I don't know if he knows I'm still going through with it or, like, I don't.

Nick (23:46)

What is kind of trying.

Renee (23:49)

Getting me food and not anything he needs to.

Nick (23:54)

He needs to acknowledge, like, I've been a terrible husband. I've been cruel to you, and I've treated you with disrespect. And I. Yeah. And I need to work. I have anger issues to work. And I mean, if. If it does, he needs to, like.

Renee (24:07)

Acknowledge all that he's told me before that I know his triggers. And that's what.

Nick (24:12)

That's still blaming you.

Renee (24:13)

That's still making, you know, like, I'm always blamed for him calling me names always.

Nick (24:17)

It's. I have issues that I need to work on, and I've disrespected you.

Renee (24:22)

Yeah.

Nick (24:23)

And if he can't, I mean, there's no path forward unless he even starts there and defeat the mean.

Renee (24:28)

And he doesn't think he did anything wrong, so it just won't ever happen.

Nick (24:32)

If I were you, I would take advantage of the fact that he still hopes there's a chance and he's being nice. And you should go get legal representation while he is, because it's. Once he knows you're gonna follow through, I would expect this guy to get pretty vicious.

Renee (24:49)

Okay. Yeah, I know. And I. If I did just. If we did just do the one hearing and be divorced, then you can.

Nick (24:56)

Still do that and get a lawyer.

Renee (24:57)

Yeah.

Nick (24:57)

You can say as long as he's willing to. To not me over. I want to move. I want to expedite this.

Renee (25:04)

And I thought about, I could represent myself and be like, no, I know. I know it sounds crazy.

Nick (25:11)

Even lawyers who aren't divorce lawyers don't represent themselves.

Renee (25:15)

Yeah. Like, I know.

Nick (25:18)

I learned this early in life, being cheap can get really expensive.

Renee (25:23)

Yeah, that's a good point.

Nick (25:24)

Protect yourself. Protect your kids.

Renee (25:26)

I just.

Nick (25:27)

The messier he is going to get vicious.

Renee (25:29)

Yeah.

Nick (25:30)

And messy. If he. If once he thinks you're serious. Whatever kind. If the person you're describing, whatever kindness you're. You're experiencing right now is not going to last once as long as if he doesn't get what he wants.

Renee (25:42)

I know. And, like, he can never give me a good reason why we should stay together.

Nick (25:46)

And it's just, like, reason he has to own.

Renee (25:50)

I know.

Nick (25:51)

He doesn't want to get divorced.

Renee (25:53)

Yeah, that's.

Nick (25:53)

That's his reason.

Renee (25:54)

He doesn't want to pay child support. He doesn't want to, like, do all that. And I get, like. He probably doesn't want to, you know, be separated from his kids.

Nick (26:00)

He's not, you know, he doesn't want to be a husband. He just wants to have a wife.

Renee (26:03)

Yeah.

Nick (26:05)

No, he wants to keep his wife as his wife without saying he's divorced. And because he's clearly shown to be a guy who's capable of not being a husband.

Renee (26:14)

Right.

Nick (26:15)

He just doesn't want to be divorced because having a wife hasn't stopped him from doing, like. Do you think he's been faithful to you?

Renee (26:22)

I do. But something we, like, fought for for, like, at least a whole year was that his friends aren't. So I, like, couldn't get past that. It was pretty bad and he thought he didn't see anything wrong with that.

Nick (26:34)

And yeah, chances are.

Renee (26:36)

So I don't know.

Nick (26:37)

Who knows?

Rachel (26:38)

I know.

Renee (26:38)

I mean, I know, I know. That's what I couldn't get over. I'm like, there's no way that you're friends with these people and you're fine with it, but you, you don't do it yourself. Yeah, I. Right after that period was when I broke up with him. But then we got back together right away and got pregnant. So I've just been.

Nick (26:52)

Get a lawyer. I think you should get a lawyer. That's my advice to you. Yeah, I would not take his word for it. And again, you can still be very kind, unproblematic, and, and try to expedite this divorce with a lawyer.

Renee (27:05)

I'm just scared once I bring a lawyer into it, it's gonna be like 10 times messier and he's gonna like, try to screw me over somehow that way because he has like, legal help.

Nick (27:12)

Now, having a lawyer, a good lawyer who can. It's their job to protect you.

Renee (27:16)

Yeah. Like, what would his lawyer do? What if his lawyer was like, way meaner than mine?

Nick (27:22)

And what is more like you, what do you think is more likely that you don't get a lawyer? And the person who has years and hundreds of examples of being spiteful and incredibly cruel to you when he's been slightly triggered is going to do when he finds out that you are actually going to move forward with this divorce and that you're going to leave him?

Renee (27:49)

Yeah, I think it'll get like, all weird.

Nick (27:52)

And you think he's just going to be like, you know what, I don't want this to get messy. I don't want to hurt her. You know, that's not, it's not, he is. It's not. It's not going to happen.

Renee (28:02)

And like, I was even like trying to get him to just admit that, like he.

Nick (28:06)

And why is you getting a lawyer? Like, I, you know, you can say, talk to my lawyer, but like, I.

Renee (28:13)

Just, I think it's mainly.

Nick (28:14)

You can just be like, listen, I want to, I want to move things, I want to expedite things, but, you know, talk to my lawyer.

Renee (28:20)

Yeah, it's just the drawn out process of it. Like, I just know it's going to take so long because unless he just doesn't fight on anything and a lawyer.

Nick (28:27)

Is there to do what you want them to do. You don't have to necessarily take their advice. So like, just because you get a lawyer doesn't mean you're going to drag it out. You don't have to. It's not like you're acting as if you're going to hire a lawyer and then you're. You. You will cease to be able to want to expedite this because your lawyer is going to say no. Going to drag this out.

Renee (28:45)

Yeah.

Nick (28:45)

And that's. Yeah, they don't have to do that. You can be like, listen, as long as they play ball and as long as he's not. I just want to make sure that I. I want you to make sure that I don't get fucked over and that he doesn't, like, try to pull one over me because I. I'm being naive. But if he's willing to, like, expedite this, I don't want. I don't want to take him. I don't want. I don't want what I don't deserve. And even if I do deserve things, honestly, I'd rather move things forward f worry about, like, getting everything I can. And as long as he doesn't me over, that's what I want. And that's their job to facilitate that.

Renee (29:25)

No, that's true. I know I could definitely. I'm worried about the money part. Like, I know I could do it. It's just like. I don't know. I know I would probably come out with more money than I pay for the lawyer. Obviously, if I don't do it, I'll be getting nothing because he thinks I deserve nothing.

Nick (29:42)

Yeah, I don't. You should get a lawyer. That's the only. That's my one advice, too.

Renee (29:46)

Yeah. Okay, I guess I'll do that.

Nick (29:49)

Protect yourself. You can.

Renee (29:50)

Scary.

Nick (29:51)

Yeah, I know. And listen, I guess this whole thing is scary. I think it's much more scarier for you to trust him.

Renee (29:58)

Right. It is. I know. I don't know why I was thinking I could.

Nick (30:01)

I mean, listen, you've been through hell, it sounds like. And I think you really are a victim of this guy's, you know, behavior.

Renee (30:09)

I feel bad for, like, my past self because I'm like, I just was begging this guy to, like, treat me like.

Nick (30:17)

Yeah, but now you got to start making good. Like, listen, you've made. It's not your fault that he's been an. But I think you have looked the other way and made way too many excuses, and you've made some bad choices.

Renee (30:29)

For yourself since the beginning. Yeah.

Nick (30:31)

I mean, I knew whenever you're only 29 and you can stop but start making good choices. And that starts with you getting a lawyer.

Renee (30:38)

Yeah, you're right. I know. Everyone tells me I should. Well, thank you.

Nick (30:44)

All right. Sorry about this.

Renee (30:45)

No. Okay. And I just can't wait for it to be over. It'll be nice. Even though I'll have, like, sad days and I'll be like, for sure.

Nick (30:55)

But.

Renee (30:55)

But I think leaving any situation would be sad in some way. I don't know.

Nick (31:00)

If you don't get a lawyer, I think you run the risk of this guy doing something where he can throw something in your face or kind of power over you and make it feel like you still have to deal with him. You, right now, you are trusting him to do something he's never shown you the ability to do in your entire marriage, and you're going to expect him to do it when you're asking him for a divorce. That's insanity.

Renee (31:23)

Right. You're right. I know. I get it. I'll get a lawyer. I do have a consultation on the 25th, but I do have one that.

Nick (31:31)

I could, like, move it up.

Renee (31:32)

Already had a consultation with.

Nick (31:33)

And don't give him the heads up.

Renee (31:34)

Yeah. Great.

Rachel (31:36)

All right.

Nick (31:36)

All right. I'm sorry.

Renee (31:39)

Oh, no worries.

Nick (31:40)

Yeah. You're only 29. You're. You gotta. It's all about your future.

Renee (31:44)

Yeah.

Nick (31:45)

Get through this.

Renee (31:45)

I feel old. Yeah.

Nick (31:47)

You're not. I know you feel. Because you've never been this old, but you still got a lot going for it. And. And once you do get divorced, I would heal a little bit and. And be very mindful of the men who excite you.

Renee (32:00)

Yeah. Like, I feel like I could pick out the red flags instantly just because I've put up with it for so long, but maybe it would have the opposite effect. I don't know. Like, I don't know.

Nick (32:13)

Make sure you have a good support system.

Renee (32:14)

Yeah, for sure.

Nick (32:15)

You know that white trash family of yours.

Renee (32:18)

I know, I know. Crazy. Yeah. She texted me when she found out that I read their personal text or something and went off. Like, went off.

Nick (32:29)

She went off on you?

Renee (32:31)

Crazy. Like, calling me uneducated, you know, I. Okay. Like, I don't know. Calling me white trash. My family's white trash. Just, like, going off, talking about how great her family is, like, it was just so unnecessary and I just wasn't feeding into it. I was very proud of my replies.

Nick (32:49)

That's good. Listen, just get out, man. Just get out.

Renee (32:52)

I know. It's just like. It makes sense why that you guys are related because, like, you act the Same way. It's crazy.

Nick (32:59)

All right, well, all right. Good luck.

Renee (33:02)

Thank you so much. All right, thanks. Take care.

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Sam (37:15)

Good. How are you?

Nick (37:16)

Good. What's your name?

Sam (37:17)

I am Sam and I'm 31 years old.

Nick (37:19)

How can I help? Sam?

Sam (37:20)

I want to know if depression can be a non negotiable.

Nick (37:24)

What do you mean by that?

Sam (37:25)

So I think what I need the most help with right now is I'm struggling to I guess accept the depression of my partner. We've been together for a couple of years and sometimes he has his ups and downs, sometimes it gets really bad where he will sleep all day and it can go from like a few days to like maybe a whole month of like low energy. And I'm a very active person. So sometimes that doesn't match. Well, I go to my own therapy and I understand also that it's not a thing that I need to fix or I need to save him or anything like that. I guess I just need help with accepting the fact he's a great partner. And there was a time where I was like, am I going to have to break up with him because this is too much? And I feel like it kind of drains my energy as well. So I need help with knowing how.

Renee (38:21)

I can do that.

Nick (38:22)

Well, I think the short answer to your question is it definitely can be a non negotiable. Everyone might not agree with that. And the cold hard truth of this, this is I'm assuming not your husband and you don't have children together.

Sam (38:40)

No, no, we're. We're actually moving in together in a month.

Nick (38:44)

Understood. But nevertheless there's a big difference between being engaged, moving in together and being married and, or with having children too because well, marriage, it doesn't have to be forever, but at least it requires lawyers and kids are, and you are whether you like them or not, connected to that person for at least 18 years and often a lifetime if you share children. And that is just changes the calculus and equation of a scenario. And my point of bringing that up is like it might seem callous or harsh, but before you choose an entire life with someone, if depression, again not a therapist and it's not an easy thing to deal with and often from what I know, and I know very little, it's unpredictable and there's not much you can do probably as a partner, let alone for that. So it's like something you just have to deal with and Depending on the severity of the depression, it might leave you very alone in those times where that person is doing things. And that's one thing to feel alone when you have no one to care about but yourself. But when you have other responsibilities, a la kids or whatever, or a mortgage or, you know, a job, then, like, you know, that, that's just. That's just. It's much harder to do. And so, yeah, it might be something where you like, hey, I love you, but I'm not signing up, literally, a marriage license for that. So it can be right. So, like, that's just. Without knowing any other details, I guess. Again, not a therapist. And I don't. I know. I know nothing about. Yeah, I can't speak intelligently on anything about depression other than it sounds like it sucks. But from your point of view, what do you know about it and just how at. At your partner's lowest. How severe is it and how much does it affect you?

Sam (40:44)

Yeah, so I do know about depression. I studied a little bit of mental health in college, and family and close friends have dealt with it. I've dealt with it myself, like, probably 10, 15 years ago. And so I think it's also triggering for me because I have that. That experience. For example, my brother who went through a really bad depression, and it was really hard seeing him like that. And then also, like, my dad, one of my best friends from college. And I think what gets me is, like, even just like, the little things, that's where I'm like, okay, I need to, like, pick my bad. Because sometimes it'll be just facial expressions where it's like, like it's such a. It's such a. It's such a bad day or whatever, and it's like 8:00am I'm like, okay, like, we are fine and everything is going to be okay. I think the answering your question with how it's been affecting us is an example just last month, which, again, I. I just want to say, also, I feel like a prick also, like, sometimes complaining about this because he's going through, like, really rough things. But. And I know it can be like, a taboo topic.

Nick (41:53)

But anyway, so you're not, you're not a prick. And I, and I, you know, and again, maybe this is harsh and maybe people disagree with me, but I just think it's. It's not, you know, like, I understand that people, like, whether it's like addiction, you know, which, you know, alcoholism is a disease, it's hereditary. Right. I understand and I have empathy for that. But like, at Some point, like, it's not always a burden or the problem of someone else across that other people have to bear. And people have the right to say, you know what? I don't want this in my life. And if you're not my child, you know, I don't. Sorry, that's, you know, like, is it callous? Maybe. I don't know. But, like, you get one life, you know, and you have a right to not sign up for something that you have very little over. You have very little control to fix, and that can greatly negatively impact your quality of life and potentially your children's life, if that's something you want for yourself. And sometimes the best decisions we can make for ourselves feel cold to other people, you know?

Sam (43:06)

Yeah.

Nick (43:07)

It doesn't make you a bad person, and it doesn't make you a prick.

Sam (43:10)

Thanks.

Nick (43:12)

Yeah, I. Yeah.

Sam (43:14)

And I think. I think where I struggle a lot is. I'm not gonna say, like, I love everything else about him, but he. He is very. He does have a lot of the qualities that I would love in a partner. I do feel loved and saved, safe and, you know, heard and seen and accepted. Now these, like, wonderful things that I want to feel from a partner. Like, just an example is, like, last month it was. Which, again, like, very acceptable, but it was his mom's death anniversary. That was a tough month where he would sleep or sometimes he would do things where he would.

Nick (43:52)

Why was his mom's. What was it again?

Sam (43:56)

Death anniversary.

Nick (43:57)

Oh, his mom's death. Okay.

Sam (43:59)

Yeah. She. She passed away last year.

Nick (44:01)

Okay.

Sam (44:02)

And then understood.

Nick (44:03)

Yes.

Sam (44:03)

Yeah. In August. And so, of course, that's a very. Like. It's very understandable, but I think I. I struggle with.

Nick (44:10)

Is he clinically diagnosed as depressed or.

Sam (44:13)

So he does see a therapist, and we. He was seeing a psychiatrist, and he was diagnosed with ptsd.

Renee (44:18)

He.

Nick (44:19)

From. What.

Sam (44:20)

The other thing is, he was. He was. He had a very abusive relationship from his mom from a very young age. So this is also, like, a struggling relationship to grief. And I do see a lot of progress from his therapy. From his therapy. It's been extremely slow, but I am also very an impatient person. It's just. I feel like that's where we don't.

Nick (44:42)

Can I ask you a question?

Renee (44:44)

Yeah.

Nick (44:46)

And I don't want the right answer. I don't want the nice answer. I just want the honest answer. Do you think sometimes your partner, whether a psychologist would disagree with you or a doctor might say, well, here's why this is wrong, and you shouldn't feel this way. But do you feel like your partner uses his sadness or depression or his diagnosed PTSD as a crutch? Sometimes. Do you feel like he sometimes leans into that where he, where you would like to, to see him challenge himself to. Not if that makes any sense.

Sam (45:26)

Yes, I, I, and I don't think this, like, this is his baseline. Like, he does this all the time or anything like that. But I, I do, I do think that sometimes he could challenge himself a little bit more with, with things like that where, like, hey, you could have literally, like, cooked yourself some eggs this morning and not wait all day and to eat, you know? Is that what you're asking?

Nick (45:49)

I mean, it's obviously, this is a very nuanced conversation. And, and we, we live in a time where I think society is, for a lot of reasons, we're trying to correct some wrongs. I think as a society and how we have perceived certain things. And we have tried, and I think as a society, we have rightfully tried to give a voice to people who have been victims of a variety of things, such as any kind of victim. Right. An acknowledgment to say, hey, whatever this is that happened to you, it's, it's. I see you, it's not your fault, and I'm sorry this happened to you. And I think that's important. As a society, we've gotten better at recognizing times in which people are victims. I do think, overall, we've gone a hundred steps too far by suggesting that once you've become a victim, it is now everyone else's problem to basically not expect anything from you, because all you have to be like, well, I'm sorry, it's not my fault. And I think there's a big difference between recognizing that as a victim. And I think we've all been victims of various things. It's not a competition how much we've been victimized by people, people we love, how we've been hurt. Obviously, there are very. Some serious, devastating things that happen to good people out there. But you can be a victim, I think, and still, yeah, you can still challenge yourself. You can still overcome adversity. And I think sometimes people we have, it's like victimhood or being a victim, I think has given people a reason not to overcome their adversity. And I think it's just a very fine line between validating someone's experience and saying, I'm sorry this happened to you, and do you want to talk about it? And I want to acknowledge the pain and make sure you know this wasn't your fault because so many victims are told, you know, are made to believe it was their fault for a variety of things while simultaneously challenging themselves to, to move forward and get through it. Not necessarily get over it, but get through it. Because there's a lot of us who have been victimized and get through it and work through it and work with therapists and really and say, I'm not going to let this define me. And I think there is a sense if you feel like there's a part of you that feels like your partner is not challenging himself to get through some of this adversity, not to take away any of the adversity that's happened.

Sam (48:44)

To him or the other things that he has done, I guess, like even just starting therapy. But I do, I do see what you're saying. Because I am a person where I reject the thought of feeling sorry for myself or going through something. And I don't think he does.

Nick (49:03)

I think he, there's a comfort in it. I think some, I think we can get very used to being. To throwing it. Yeah, to feeling sorry for ourselves. I have at times in my life felt sorry for myself and again, not to compare people's pain or whatever and certainly people have experienced far greater adversity than I ever have or pain. But at my lowest, I certainly felt pretty fucking low. And at my post painful experiences in those moments, I couldn't imagine a more hurtful pain. But I guess what I'm saying is in those mindsets it's very easy to allow self pity and feeling sorry for ourselves to justify not wanting to move forward. I've also say, I don't know, I don't know if it's a clinic, but depression is a form of self loathing and focusing on ourselves. Something that's helped with me and I don't know, I've definitely never been clinically depressed. I've had periods of feeling very sad and very down and very helpless. But the more I focused on that pain, the worse it got and the more I started focusing on getting outside of what was going wrong with my life and focused on other people outside of my life and people I wasn't connected to and trying to like be of service to others. The more I felt, the better I felt at first.

Sam (50:41)

Like in the beginning of our relationship he would do a lot of, you know, like, like not a lot of it, but when, when it was those times when he was extremely sad, there was a lot of like feeling sorry for himself and that he couldn't do certain things or if he forgot about, I don't know, like a date, you know, or whatever. Well, I was like, going through all of this and I'm sorry that I forgot this time. And now I've seen that he does try to. I don't know if I should use this word, but like, not neglect the relationship and, and me. But then I struggle with that part of, like, how do I, how, how can I be a caring partner while at the same time, like, I can't?

Nick (51:23)

Yeah, it's tricky, right? We've all heard the saying, hurt people, hurt people. Right?

Sam (51:28)

Yeah.

Nick (51:29)

And we all agree with that statement. I'm just a huge believer that in almost every situation, I mean, there are just people who have overcome some just fucking horrific things that have happened to them. Right. Just truly horrific. Not to get, like, deep in the weeds, but, like, you know, they're third world countries out, you know, like, just there's this, like, what we experience as a society and just our charmed lives compared to just like the rest of the world. It's fucking crazy. Right? And I just think humans are very resilient and if we want to be. But like, I guess my point is if you think that there are certain things that happen to people or us where, hey, that was horrible, and there's nothing they can do about it, so we need to be, we need to simply just acknowledge that they're a hurt person and empathize with their pain and whatever they do, like, well, listen, they can't really help it because they're sad or they're depressed or they're hurt. If that's true, it's like, okay, well, if that's the case, then if hurt people, hurt people, and the people who are hurt, there's nothing they can do about the pain that they're going through. Is it safe for other people to rely on them for emotional support? You know, asking your boyfriend to show up or remember a date or, you know, prioritize your needs, like, going forward, is he always going to be able from time to time, on the anniversary of his mother's death, play the hey, for the next month? You can't, you can't count on me, you know?

Sam (53:01)

Yeah, that's tough.

Nick (53:03)

You know, I, I, yeah, I wasn't.

Sam (53:05)

Even thinking, I mean, this is, I don't know, this is silly, but I was even thinking, like, if, like in the future, I was just prepared that in the month of August, you know, that's just the, the month where I'm not going to be able to count on him. But you know what? I'm an independent woman.

Rachel (53:22)

See.

Nick (53:22)

No, it's crazy. That's crazy. That's crazy. That's crazy. That's crazy. I'm sorry. That's crazy. And, and if you're, if your partner wants to expect that from people, he needs to expect people in his life to say no. He can expect whatever he wants for himself, you know.

Sam (53:38)

Yeah.

Nick (53:39)

And there'll be plenty of people who will say, yeah, I mean, what are you going to do about it? But like, again, I just, if we want to be, we can be incredibly resilient. And, you know, I'm sure there's people out there who think I'm speaking outside of my depth or whatever. And I'm again, not a psychologist and I understand there's. But whatever happened to your partner as a child sounds like he's really had to deal with some terrible things. You know, so many of us have some really just horrific, sad things. Right. And that's sad. And I wish. And we should always try to right those wrongs or become more mindful. How do we be a better community? How do we protect children more? How do we be better parents and better partners? And how do we move forward? And these are all great questions to ask ourselves. But if hurt people, hurt people, then we have to be willing as hurt people to heal and move through our pain and heal ourselves. And it's our responsibility to mend our wounds so that we don't do the same thing that happened to us. When we talk about generational trauma and things like that, are we going to be a victim of our circumstances or are we going to do whatever we can to move through it? And as someone who self describes herself, as someone who really wants to be resilient and work through, you might not just. You asked about a non negotiable. The non negotiable might be like your compatibility. Because if he is someone who can't get through his, you know, his misfortunes, of which he, you know, you know what I'm saying? Like, I think a lot of people, once they recognize that things aren't their fault and they've been unlucky, will sit with that as a sense of comfort rather than a starting point to move forward, you know.

Sam (55:30)

Yeah.

Nick (55:30)

If that makes sense.

Sam (55:32)

No, it does. I'm processing everything that you're saying. Yeah, it's tough because, like, I don't want to be like, like defending like, you know, or anything, but I, I just see that he is so caring, you know, 80 of the time or whatever. But then those times are so tough that I. I can't manage them.

Nick (55:51)

I don't. If 20%. 20% of some real rough patches is a lot. I don't know. The question is, is. Do you think that 20% of, you know, using it. Do you think he is. Is this something he's decided? This is who I am. There's nothing I can do about it. I go back to, like, when I was. And this is not pain. I'm not talking about, like, heartbreak that I've dealt with, but, you know, that was certainly experiences that were painful. And I'll never forget the time where I just could not get over this breakup. I was, like, five months into it and just pitied myself, and I felt truly scorned and truly wronged. And I remember, like, telling my parents, I'll never. I decided I'll never get over this, you know? And do you. Is he. Is he decided that this is. This pain he's had to endure is something that is just. It's his wound. Sometimes we identify with our pain.

Sam (56:54)

Yeah.

Nick (56:56)

And. And it becomes a part of who we are. And like, you. You're the type of person who's like, I don't want that to define me.

Sam (57:02)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nick (57:04)

I'm really good.

Sam (57:05)

I am. I think that specifically with the grief, that's maybe to a certain degree, what I experienced this last month with other things that he's, you know, experienced. I mean, there's been a lot of abuse that he's experienced when he was a child, but not with that.

Nick (57:24)

Yeah.

Sam (57:24)

So the things that are. He's. He's worked with them with his therapist, and. And I, like, not with those things, but I. And. And then, like, I don't know if I'm, like, nitpicking here, because I think I just feel it with. With that. With. With the grief and that. That traumatic part of his life where it's been really. You know, I don't know if I'm also being, like, a crybaby, too, because, like, this is just like, the. The first month of his mom's death. Should I be more empathetic and more understanding? That's where, like, I'm like.

Nick (58:01)

Well, it sounds like, though, while this is the first month you've dealt with it, it sounds like he's giving you. There's been other instances where he's been depressed or sad about other things.

Sam (58:12)

Yeah.

Nick (58:13)

So there's been a pattern of how he deals with being triggered. Correct? Right. Is that accurate?

Sam (58:22)

Yes. Yes, I, right now that all that I can remember has been with the grief. Like his mom was a hoarder. So there's been a lot of stuff that he needs to get rid of from his house because he was caring for her for the last years. So I don't know if it's like those triggers that then get him down and then getting rid of all the clothes or getting rid of all these, this junk.

Nick (58:46)

You know, here's the thing. I think when it comes down to if you're trying to like because really you're, you're calling in to try to figure out like you mentioned is, is depression a non negotiable right where. And you're trying to figure out this is a man who you respect, you love, you see a lot of good in even as a partner, he's pretty good most of the time. But there is this thing that is a recurring thing you have to ask yourself deep down. Does your gut tell you is this something you think he is he wants to and is willing to overcome or is this something that you think he has identified with and quite honestly has no interest in overcoming it and that from time to time he doesn't resist or show a sign of wanting to work through some of his pain? And does your gut tell you that this will never really change about him or do you think that he is capable of turning a corner? Because if you don't think he's capable, if your gut's like I don't think this is ever going to change, then it might be a non negotiable for you. If he's the type of person who can say to you, I don't want to feel this way anymore. I am tired of being sad or feeling sad. And I don't know how if I can change it and I don't know and it might, but I want to work through it. I want to whatever help I need to not feel this way. I want to try at least and I want to challenge myself to work through it. And it, you know, I might try and fail and I, you know, it won't be easy, but I'm tired of this.

Sam (60:23)

He has expressed that, that and he has expressed the, you know, in his work with, you know, going to therapy, he has expressed that he has like other medical stuff too where I'm like, like now you have this and like now you have like this other thing. And so I guess he has been more active with, with taking care of himself. It's when he, I think I don't know, I'm sorry. I think it's when he goes into that where I feel like this is never gonna end, and then he gets better and I'm like, okay, this is good. So I don't know. I don't know if it's.

Nick (61:00)

It's a tough situation. I just like. It's such a fine line, you know, I think as. Especially if you're like, acts of service is one of my. Is my core love language. So I like taking care of the people I love. But it can be a real ick for me to be around people who seem unwilling to want to help themselves.

Sam (61:21)

That is exactly what I'm feeling. I don't know if it's fair because he does try those steps of continuing therapy and, you know, his medical appointments and trying to get out of that state, I think.

Nick (61:34)

But I think there's. I think you're. I think you're discounting your intuition.

Sam (61:39)

Yeah.

Nick (61:40)

And I think talking to you, you sound like an empathetic person who. Who wants to, you know, give people the benefit of the doubt. And you have certainly gone out of at times to give your partner the benefit of the doubt. But I think sometimes deep down, we just. We don't see what we need to see to feel good about a situation. And I think the reason why you're calling in with this question is because I think deep down, you doubt his ability to want to really help himself. And I think sometimes you feel guilty because again, we have been told that, like, you know, we don't want to victim blame and we don't want to. We want to have empathy for people who have been wronged, and it's very nuanced to try to, you know, but deep down, you're just like, you know, fucking lock. You know, just fucking. Come on, lock it the fuck up. Because again, we're not here to compare people's pains. But like, you know, just because someone doesn't make you aware of the pain they've endured throughout life doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Renee (62:47)

Yeah.

Nick (62:48)

And. And most of us have dealt with some. Some shit. And. And if you're someone who has dealt with your own shit and pain and you've worked through it, it is hard for you to. To not expect other people to try to do the same. And it is really hard. I mean, again, having kids, being married in the best situations is hard enough, but if someone is checking out 20% of the time because they're emotionally incapable of taking. Of even taking care of themselves, let alone that's virtually impossible.

Sam (63:24)

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

Nick (63:27)

It's tough. It's tough.

Sam (63:28)

Yeah. Sorry. I don't know what to say.

Nick (63:31)

No, I know. I mean, it's. You have to believe that he really doesn't want to feel this way anymore.

Sam (63:39)

Yeah. And. And, like, yeah, it sucks, because I feel like when I get into that stage of, like, this is never gonna end, I also go into this, like, I maximize the icks, and, like, it makes me feel a lot better when I hear you say that Natalie has a lot of icks, but then I maximize those in those moments, and I'm like, okay, is. Is this normal, though?

Renee (64:05)

Or is it.

Nick (64:05)

But, yeah, icks are normal. Yeah. But it's like. I think. I think it's just. It's very helpless to be with someone who acts helpless.

Sam (64:12)

I was about to say the helpless thing. Like, I think it's so hard when I feel his feeling of being helpless.

Nick (64:20)

And I just think most people aren't, even if they have a reason to. I just. I don't know. I just think we're very resilient people if we want to be. And again, it's not about comparing tragedies.

Sam (64:35)

Yeah.

Nick (64:36)

But I think there's just so many examples, and we're so unaware of more examples of how people have worked through so many atrocities to still make the most of this life that they have. I was just having this conversation with my team, or. It's just, like, I think it's important to recognize when people are victims, and I think it's important to see them and. And again, validate them that it's not their fault. And to the extent that they feel like it is their fault or been made to feel like it is their fault, and sometimes we do need to cry a little bit and let it out our emotions and just be sad for a period of time. But I also think sometimes we do need to get through it.

Sam (65:27)

No, I agree. And I think that should be normalize a little bit more. I work in a clinic with medically complex families and children, and we do want to provide, like, accommodations and, like, all these therapies, but at the same time, we want to make sure that they also get, you know, like, they. They. They can also make it, you know, to their level.

Nick (65:48)

But, yeah, I know it's very nuanced, and I don't know what people are saying who are listening or what they're thinking. But if I. I just. I choose to believe there's. There's almost always a path forward and that doesn't make it easy. Mean it's going to be easy. But there usually is a path forward. It doesn't mean it erases the past. It doesn't mean you'll ever fully get over something. But things can get better. Things can improve things. You know, we can learn from terrible experiences. We can stop generational trauma. And again, back to, like, if you're someone who just think, you know, like, if hurt people, hurt people, then I. I truly hope that for those of us who have all been hurt wherever, to whatever degree, there is a path forward. Because otherwise, then we just could become people who hurt people. And people who. Who are depressed can hurt other people.

Sam (66:49)

Yeah.

Nick (66:51)

You know.

Sam (66:52)

Yeah, I think you're right.

Nick (66:53)

So it's definitely a balance between empathy and. And. But for your case, I, you know, you might be forced to make the. What is going to feel like a callous and. And selfish decision to choose your own happiness. Because if. If your partner, ultimately, deep down, if your gut tells me there are times where he just doesn't want to help himself. What. What a life looks like with that person can be very, very challenging.

Sam (67:23)

Yeah.

Nick (67:26)

Sorry. I don't know. I know. Again, like, not a therapist. Want to point that out? So just. Just smile.

Sam (67:32)

Yeah. We actually have our couples therapy session on Monday, so it's gonna be.

Nick (67:36)

That's good.

Sam (67:38)

Yeah. It's been helpful with other things that we've talked about, but I think I have a lot to think about.

Nick (67:45)

Maybe just like, listen, I will say just a note for all the ladies out there who are dating a man. I think men need people to believe in them. I think sometimes society forgets that. So if you're going to critique him, do it from a place of you believing in his ability to work through this stuff. You know, don't make him feel bad for his feeling bad.

Sam (68:14)

Yeah.

Nick (68:15)

It's got to come from a place of. I. You. I believe in you. I believe in you. You can do this. All men need cheerleaders.

Sam (68:24)

Yeah. And I don't think I've done that. I feel like I have been critical of the things that he's done or said when. And it's, you know, those moments. But I. I haven't been expressed, like, I haven't expressed that to him yet before from a place of, like, belief in him.

Nick (68:45)

Yeah. All right, well, it sounds like you're doing every, you know, I. You're not. Whatever you decide, I just want you to know you're not a dick.

Sam (68:54)

Thank you.

Nick (68:55)

And if you decide to leave him you're not a bad person, you know, you're just not.

Sam (69:00)

Yeah.

Nick (69:00)

You have the right to choose a life that is not overly complicated and is set up for success. And I think your greatest fear is that you're worried that you're going to choose a life that is set up for failure.

Sam (69:14)

Yeah.

Nick (69:15)

And I think that's more than valid.

Sam (69:17)

Yeah. Thank you.

Nick (69:18)

All right. Okay. Well, thanks for the call.

Sam (69:22)

Thank you. Actually, before we end, can I ask you something really quick?

Nick (69:26)

Sure.

Sam (69:27)

I'm a complete normie, and I just want to know if it's normal for reality TV people to send a follow request on Instagram to normies like me.

Nick (69:40)

Why do you ask?

Sam (69:41)

I just got a follow request from some. From, like, a previous Love Is Blind cast member last week, probably.

Nick (69:49)

Is that a guy?

Sam (69:51)

Yes. But I've never met. Like, I reacted to a story with, like, the clapping pants because of something that he posted. But I don't DM people. Like, I don't do those things, and I'm not.

Nick (70:02)

Well, I mean, like, reality TV stars are. Are not. Are pretty, are more or less normies, especially if they're not, like, the 1% people who really pop. So if it's a guy and he's followed you, it's. I think, while you have a boyfriend.

Sam (70:22)

I didn't accept his follow request.

Nick (70:25)

If you're asking what his intentions are, they're probably like any other guy who would send you a follow request.

Sam (70:30)

Okay. Okay. But it won't be accepting it either way, but yeah.

Renee (70:36)

All right.

Nick (70:37)

What season?

Sam (70:38)

I. I don't remember. It was one of the last couple, probably.

Nick (70:42)

Gotcha. All right, well, thanks for the call.

Sam (70:47)

Thank you.

Nick (70:47)

All right, bye. Bye. This episode is sponsored by better help. 10 October is World Mental Health Day, and this year we are saying thank you, therapists. Better Help Therapists have helped over 5 million people worldwide on their mental health journeys. That's millions of stories, millions of journeys, and behind everyone is a therapist who showed up, listened, and helped someone take a step forward. And BetterHelp has been helping people jump into therapy for a long time now, and we are huge advocates of therapy. It can do a lot of good in the right situations. And we certainly know how difficult or challenging or just kind of intimidating therapy can be. But Better Help helps alleviate all of those barriers. It's more affordable than in person therapy. It's incredibly convenient. All you need is a tablet, a phone, some kind of computer. You can do it wherever you are as long as you have Internet connection. 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Rachel (77:38)

Good. Hi, my name is Rachel. I'm 37 years old and my issue is that my husband refuses to let Our kids meet my mom's secret boyfriend, and I feel stuck in the middle. What do I do?

Nick (77:50)

All right, so what do you mean by secret boyfriend? Who is he? Who is he a secret to?

Rachel (77:54)

He was a secret to everybody for at least eight years.

Nick (77:59)

Why is he a secret?

Rachel (78:01)

My parents weren't officially divorced, and my mom was basically trying to have her cake and eat it too, by hanging out with the family, doing things with the family. My dad has wanted to be back together with her the whole time, and she didn't want to ruffle any tail feathers by letting everybody know that she actually was with somebody else and didn't have said that. She hasn't wanted to hurt anybody. And she's a private person overall, so, you know, she just thinks it's her business. And nobody else's business is she's still.

Nick (78:35)

Technically married to your dad.

Rachel (78:37)

So they actually got divorced November 2024. So they recently finally divorced.

Nick (78:41)

Okay, and so your kids are aware that grandma and grandpa are no longer together?

Rachel (78:46)

They're kind of. They're really young. So I have a three year old and a ten month old, so the three year old only, so it's not.

Nick (78:52)

Really relevant to them.

Rachel (78:53)

Barely knows.

Nick (78:54)

Yeah. So, okay, given that they're so young, what is your husband's reasoning for refusing to introduce like. And I'm assuming your husband's interacted with secret boyfriend?

Rachel (79:05)

Barely. No. I mean, I would say no. He met him one time before we knew that they were dating. He didn't care for him at that time. He had a lot of negative feelings about him even at that time. And he did get a sense that something weird was going on, but we didn't know anything for sure at that time.

Nick (79:28)

Is it the principle of it for your husband?

Rachel (79:30)

I think it's a few things. I think he overall has resentment toward my mom, which we could go into.

Nick (79:40)

That, but for more than just her. What he might perceive as disrespect to your dad.

Rachel (79:47)

Yeah, he feels like she blew up the family. You know, my husband and I have been together since eighth grade.

Nick (79:54)

Oh, okay. So he's had a front row seat to all this.

Rachel (79:57)

Yeah, yeah. We've been together for 24 years, married for 15. Okay. And my parents were together my whole childhood. And he grew up with them too, in a way. Right, okay.

Nick (80:08)

Yeah, that's definitely a. Makes sense.

Rachel (80:10)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. When we got married, my parents and his parents had become close friends already while we were dating. And we had done many family things together. Trips, holidays, birthdays, all of it. And when my parents separated, it at first was because my mom had cheated on my dad. And I, I went through a whole period of. Of time where I was super angry with her, but her and I actually went to therapy together. And I basically at that time was in my early 20s and very, you know, thought I knew all the right things like to say about how she should stay married to my dad and try to work it out with my dad. But I, I basically got kicked in the butt by the therapist at that time that it's, you know, it's not really my problem to solve. And the whole time my husband's been right along there with me with, you know, just caring that my parents end up back together. My dad is. Wanted them back together, wanted them to be back together. And my mom, you know, her and I had to repair our relationship in my early 20s, going through the therapy and everything. And my husband just hasn't come to a place that I have where he never, he never got to a place of respecting her choices, basically.

Nick (81:32)

I can't help but wonder. There's a bit of a projection here. It sounds like that's coming from your husband where it's just like he never wants to. It's like there's a part of him that, like, I'm guessing that if he forgives her, then he's forgetting about what she did to his family. And you know, she is your mother and it's like there's. I think there's always a fear of like, are you eventually going to do to me what your mom did to your dad type of thing. And I can't possibly say this is okay because I never want you to think like, you know, it's almost. He would be putting his guard down in a way.

Rachel (82:06)

Yeah.

Nick (82:07)

And I think there's a level of uneasiness that, you know, well, like, you know, she's your only, she's the only mom you got. And as imperfect as our parents are, we always have to find a lane for forgiveness. And I think we don't have to, but if, if we can, there's sure, you know, we only have one family as imperfect as they are.

Rachel (82:25)

Yeah.

Nick (82:26)

So I'm glad that you've been able to mend this fence with your, with, with your mom. But she's not your husband's mom. And you know, our in laws are, you know, like, they're in law.

Rachel (82:37)

You know, I, I agree with my husband to an extent that I do feel that her boyfriend, I mean he is a little bit shady. Everything that has happened so far with, with her keeping him a secret and then coming to find out that he's relied on her a lot financially and he, he was an employee of her business and is living in a house that she owns. Technically, she owned it with my dad. You know, he, it feels like he's kind of mooched off of her and wiggled his way in. We don't love, you know, the, the, the level of drinking that he does and that she does with him. We don't really love the way he presents himself. You know, he's the type of guy that will wear a shirt with, you know, a pinup girl coming out of a cocktail glass, and it's just disrespectful. It doesn't, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. It's just the way everything added together.

Nick (83:37)

I mean, you are describing a guy that I would be like, you know, to your point, your kids are too young to know the difference at this point, at this juncture, junction juncture, at this point, this period in their life. But you're describing a person I would not want around my kids.

Rachel (83:53)

Right. And so I, I agree with my husband to the extent that I'm never going to have my kids spend the night at her house because we don't trust this person. And, you know, the statistics alone just about abuse and that, you know, being strange men, likely with people that you. People that are close to home. Yeah, we, I, I think for my husband, he overall represents just like a category of risk that he's not willing to take. And, and it's the same for me. But the difference my husband and I have is that. So my mom wants to start bringing this guy around to different holiday events and invite us over or go out to dinner. And if we're all there together, if, if I'm there, if my husband's there, it would be fine. And that's, that's what my mom would want, is that we get to know him while we're there. It doesn't. I mean, she would also love to have my daughter spend the night at her house. I mean, that's the boundary that I agree with my husband, I'm willing to step my, you know, put down, but I just can't imagine going through holiday season after holiday season saying, no, we will not be in the same room as your boyfriend. Because my husband is unwilling. He will tell me that he'll, he'll stay home with the girls and I can go, that I will not be bringing the girls to anywhere that he is at all like, it's extremely. Yeah, it's very extreme.

Nick (85:24)

Yeah, it's, it's, it's. I, I, I see both sides, you know, I really do. I, I empathize with your husband. And so, yeah, I get why your husband's holding a hard line because he's like, why would I risk putting my kids in a position to be around a guy that I just think is a scumbag? For a woman who's only just made bad choices when it comes to her family, this is a woman who, from his point of view, hasn't prioritized her family. And I'm guessing as being a young father, a new dad, you're guessing your husband's in, like, full on, this is my family. I'm here to protect my family. You know, full dad mode type of thing.

Rachel (86:06)

Very protective.

Nick (86:07)

Yes. Which I call, I totally get, like, I'm in, like, you know, of course. But he has to, to a degree that she is your mother and he needs to support his wife's relationship with her parents is, you know, he just, just, he just does. And you guys have to find that balance as a couple. And he needs to empathize with the fact that, like, hey, you didn't choose this for your family. You didn't like that your mom did what she did to your dad. It wasn't fun for you. It was more hurtful for you than certainly it was for him. He gets to be more judgmental as someone who's like, not necessarily related to your mom, but you have to. This is still your family and you don't like it, but, like, you still want a relationship with your mom and this sucks for you, and you just need him to help find some kind of middle ground so that, like, you know, this isn't about being right again. It's about being happy. And, you know, it's like, this is my mom, you know, and, you know, knock on wood. But if something tragically happened next couple years, like, I can't imagine, you know, not having a few more wonderful memories about the holidays because we were judgmental of her, some of her choices. And to your point, like, he can still be a protective dad as long as he's there, you know, and your kids are going to be surrounded by, like, you know, the world is full of scummy people. You're not going to keep your kids isolated at home and stop them from, like, going to summer camp or the public pool because they might run into, like, shady characters, you know, so, yeah, it's you. He needs to Find that middle ground.

Rachel (87:52)

Right. Well, that's kind of where I'm stuck because he just flat out refuses.

Nick (87:58)

The good news is right now, your kids are so young, it doesn't really matter in terms of. For. For them. I mean, you have a little bit of time, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.

Rachel (88:08)

Kind of, yeah. I mean, my three year old is extremely astute, but I know what you mean. I. Yeah, I know she's. She's young, but she's already asking questions like she sees my dad, her grandpa, and she'll say, why does gramp not have a wife? And so she's already thinking about those things. She has never met my mom's boyfriend at all. My mom definitely wants her to. And yeah, they're young right now, but. But time is. Time goes by quickly. I don't know. My, my biggest issue right now is that even communicating boundaries with my mom makes her feel rejected. She takes it as rejection. So she will say things like, you're not for me and you cater to your dad when I do a family holiday with my dad's side of the family, but don't want to do a Christmas event with. At her place with her boyfriend.

Nick (89:09)

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, there are consequences to actions.

Rachel (89:14)

Yeah, she hates that. We've said that. She abhors that's that statement. And I mean, I know I need to just not let it be my problem, but it's hard. I'm feeling like I'm alone in this, in the entire family, because, you know, I have one sibling, my brother and his wife. They've already ripped the band aid off and gone out to dinner with them, but they're about to have a baby. Who knows, they might, might change their mind when their daughter's born on what kind of boundaries they keep. But my husband's family is so close with my family. They all think that my husband is being ridiculous. So his own parents think that he's being ridiculous. His sister thinks that he's being ridiculous. And it's partly because he is being a little ridiculous. They just don't want the tension. They. They just want to have fun. They want us to all get together, not have any issues. We all went on a.

Nick (90:10)

He's definitely being ridiculous. I can be very stubborn. I'm capable of doing what your husband is doing right now. I think what your husband needs to understand is that by. By putting his foot down, he's all. He's hurting you.

Rachel (90:23)

Yeah.

Nick (90:24)

And because like, again, he needs to understand like, you don't. You don't want this. This isn't your. You don't wish this man was around. But the fact that he is suggesting he's incapable of protecting his family and his children. This man is not that powerful. And that if your husband wants, he doesn't have to be his best friend, but, like, to refuse, like, this man is in your life, you know, shit, I got 10 brothers and sisters. I don't get to pick their partners. You know, I don't get to. I can't like, everybody, you know, deal with it. You know, it is what it is. Right. I'm not gonna refuse to, like, go. I don't have to. I'm not trying to be best friends with everyone who's, you know, I've been married into, so to speak. Or. Or my siblings choose, and they're fine, you know, like, you know, I don't have relationships with some of them. But, like, you're in the spirit. This hard line your husband's holding is. Is. Is hurting you because it's causing you emotional distress. It's making you choose, like, you have to pick sides. And the ridiculous part about it is that your. Your husband's actions are suggesting that he can't protect his. His family if this man is in the same room with his family.

Rachel (91:37)

Yeah.

Nick (91:38)

And that's obviously not true. Right.

Rachel (91:40)

Right.

Nick (91:40)

And he's holding a hard line about something that isn't true at the consequence of, you know, making his wife's life, like, more difficult. What he needs to focus on is not making your life more difficult for the sake of punishing this guy. And he's giving this guy too much credit it. To spite this guy and despite your mom and, And, And. And I guess in a way is willing to hurt. Hurt make your life more difficult. And he has to see it that way. Right.

Rachel (92:09)

Yeah.

Nick (92:09)

Where's your husband? Can I tell him this?

Rachel (92:16)

Not currently, but I wish I've tried to tell him all this. He's very stubborn.

Nick (92:22)

Yeah.

Rachel (92:23)

He's not the type of person that budges easily when he draws a hard line. He doesn't want to be pressured out of that. But I mean, I will certainly relay once again that it is hurting me and that he. And I think what you said about him giving my mom's boyfriend too much power is actually something new. I could be telling him. That's a good point.

Nick (92:49)

Yeah. You're in a way letting. It's just it. He does not deserving of this type of.

Rachel (92:55)

Yeah.

Nick (92:56)

And. And again, it's suggesting that he can't. He doesn't have the power to, like, stand up to this guy or protect his family or his kids by his presence. And he doesn't have to. Him being in the same room doesn't. Can make. Doesn't. Doesn't prove anything. So, yeah, like, he's got to kind of get over his stubbornness. And I can really put myself in your husband's shoes. Or just, like, I can picture my brother who's even more stubborn than me, you know, really just. Your husband has to get over being right and focus on everyone's happiness. And it will be a good lesson for him as a dad because, like, this won't be the last time he has to choose happiness of his family and his kids over being right. Yeah.

Rachel (93:40)

I laughed when you said that you could really put yourself into shoes because this is actually why I called you. Your mindset. I've listened to a lot of your Ask Nick episodes, and your mindset really reminds me of my husband's and just that ability to be discerning and critical. But you're typically, you know, right about what you're critical over. Even if it, you know, might. It might rub people the wrong way or whatever, but it ends up being right, you know?

Nick (94:08)

No, I know. Yeah. And that's the thing, is your husband has convinced himself, and rightfully so, probably. This guy sucks. And he knows he sucks, and he knows your mom's wrong, and he knows your mom has, like, a bad taste in men, and there's no benefit to him to allow this man to be a part of his family's life. And he knows he's right, which is why he's holding such a hard line. And he's got to get over himself about being right and recognize that, like, he can still allow this to happen, still be right, and then just, like, be the protective dad. Doesn't have to have a drink with this guy, doesn't have to chill out, doesn't even have to really be nice to him. I am so good at dismissing people with the silent treatment. And I'm like, I could give your husband a run for his money. I can't be out awkward in an awkward situation of, like, just so you know, I don't need to say I don't like you without making it feel like I don't like you. And I bet your husband's pretty good at that, too. Yeah, he can do that and allow you to just be around your mom for the holidays. And. Yeah, because at some point, he will be.

Rachel (95:21)

He.

Nick (95:22)

His Stubbornness will be getting in the way of his own children's happiness. Because your kids are going to want to be around grandma for the holidays and, like, they don't need to be bothered by adult problems right now as young kids.

Rachel (95:35)

Very true.

Nick (95:36)

They don't need to know. And so he kind of needs to get over himself. And. And I say that as someone who's had to get over myself often in. In situations where I know I'm right.

Rachel (95:46)

This is. This is all good. This is a good way for me to reframe it to him.

Nick (95:50)

When this episode comes out, you can let him listen to it. Does he know you're calling in?

Rachel (95:55)

No.

Nick (95:56)

Do you think he'll be upset?

Rachel (95:57)

He knew that I was thinking about it. Let me just say that with his personality, he's not the type of person to want to listen to someone on a podcast.

Nick (96:06)

Understood. Nor would I listen. This is his opportunity to grow. Because I'm sure it sounds like. Yeah. And I'm sure you probably. Why you're married to him and you love him. You respect, you know, his discernment, but that doesn't mean he can't be wrong, and it doesn't mean he can't be more nuanced. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, he's. This will be a good lesson for him in finding a. As a father, you know, especially having a. You're gonna have to be nuanced, man. You're gonna have to like. It's. It's. If it's your way or the highway, eventually people are going to start picking the highway. Right. Because this is emotionally hurting you. And it's like, again, this is not fun. This is not. Like, again, you wouldn't choose this for yourself. You don't like this situation. You don't like this guy. You wish, you know, you don't like what your mom did, but it's not your choice. And, you know, I want my mom to be happy. Yeah. Right.

Rachel (96:57)

But. But I think that the partner she's chosen makes that difficult. It's difficult to be happy for her. He doesn't feel good enough for her. Right. And it's her choice. But having any negativity toward that for her feels like rejection of her because of this choice that she's made.

Nick (97:15)

I mean, there's some element of your husband being a little righteous. Yeah. As if he's like, in the long run, your mom will thank him for not accepting him because he's not, you know, because he's a loser. This is your mom's life. And like you said, she's gonna do what she wants to do, but he's acting like he's saving your mom and saving you from yourselves and protecting his kids when all he's doing is just kind of like creating unnecessary tension and emotional distress for his wife and I guess his parents who just want to party for the sake of being. Right. Right.

Rachel (97:51)

Yeah.

Nick (97:52)

And discounting his ability to be a protective father in situations where he can't shelter his kids from obnoxious, annoying people who he thinks are like bad role models for his kids, your kids are going to be surrounded by bad role models. And quite honestly, maybe this is a teachable moment for your kids as they get older and they observe certain behaviors from this guy. It's a teachable moment. You can't stop your kids from being around people that, like, represent behaviors that you don't want your kids to learn from.

Rachel (98:28)

Yeah, that's true. He has to get over not getting his way, so to speak, in how he wanted our family to look, which, I mean, I'm right there with him, so.

Nick (98:38)

But him getting his way is double punishing you for a situation that, like, has affected you the most.

Rachel (98:45)

Yeah.

Nick (98:45)

And he has the benefit of disconnecting because, like, it's not his family and it's not his mom and his parents are still got their thing going on and he's being a little self righteous about it.

Rachel (98:56)

Yeah, agreed.

Nick (98:58)

If he's listening to this, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to judge you, but I know I'm right.

Rachel (99:07)

This is very helpful. I think even just the fact that he's giving my mom's boyfriend too much power in holding the line this hard, it was helpful for me to hear that. And I will definitely take that back to him. And then I have to rip the band aid off with my mom a little bit on having a more honest conversation with her because we've been able to skirt around it and beat around the bush a little bit. You know, I've definitely blamed my husband on why we haven't gotten to know her boyfriend when it really is both of us. But I also haven't even told my mom how extreme my husband really feels. And I don't know if I need to just that we could never. There could never be enough building of trust to make it worth taking a risk.

Nick (99:54)

Yeah. No, I mean, I would never let my kids sleep over the fucking place.

Rachel (99:58)

Yeah. And I think that that's something my mom is going to need to hear because she doesn't understand that I Mean.

Nick (100:04)

Yeah, I don't know how you like, but, like, you're right. Like, the stats of child abuse from men not related to the children who have intimate access to the children are staggering. I'm. I'm poorly wording that, but you know what I'm talking.

Rachel (100:20)

No, exactly. I mean, that's. It's everything that we're talking about here that's not being said out loud. Yeah, about, like, what my husband's concern is the category of risk that this guy represents. Right.

Nick (100:30)

Yeah. And I'm sorry if that, like, is offensive to him, but it's not your fucking problem. Yeah, not to mention all the other things of, like, he's just. I. We don't respect how he moves himself or carries himself or the energy he brings to a room. And it's fine for us as adults. We can just choose not to be a part of it. But we are uncomfortable around it with kids. And again, but that's still different than, like, coming to a party where there's a bunch of people right then that's completely different than, like, approving the kids going there for the night while he, you know, has.

Rachel (101:02)

Right, exactly.

Nick (101:03)

It's not. It's apples and oranges. Right.

Rachel (101:05)

That's how I feel about it. I just need my husband to get there and I need my mom to understand without feeling rejected, but I know I can't control that part of it.

Nick (101:15)

Yeah, that's tough because you're right. I mean, at some point, especially now, I don't know how your mom is, but your mom is who she is. She is not going to change. However your mom is and why she is the way she is happened years ago. This is the final product. And there's punishing her for it is definitely a choice, but I don't know if it's the right choice. And your husband has to understand the difference between protecting his family at the risk of. It might hurt her feelings, but, like, the bigger picture is protecting my family and making a choice out of pettiness or righteousness isn't required to protect his family. But ultimately, it's just. It hurts her in the long run. And, you know, he's gone past the point of doing what he needs to do to be the protective father. And now he's just being right and it's hurting you. It's making your mom feel extra bad. Not that he thinks she deserves much sympathy, but, like, you're just kind of piling on someone who, like, I don't think even your mom would be like, this is exactly what I wanted for myself.

Rachel (102:19)

She's actually said stuff like that and admitted things like that, and I just. It makes it even worse, honestly.

Nick (102:27)

Yeah. I mean, it's a. It's a dark thing to realize, but when I'm a big. You know, we make choices, and people go through their life as if everything will work out because everything happens for a reason. And the reality is, at some point, you wake up and you realize, this is the salad I made.

Rachel (102:43)

Yeah. There's a level of delusion that my mom has had where she's like, she has said, I didn't know that this would affect the family to this level. When it's been just about not having him invited to big trips that we've gone on, it's. She's starting to feel now that we know about him, even though I'm still processing the rewriting of history and realizing all the lies that were told when we didn't know that she was with this guy, I'm still processing that. I know I need to get over it and move forward, but now that we know about him, she just expects that we accept it and that we are happy for her that she's moved on and that we don't carry any negativity from the way she went about it being shady. So.

Nick (103:33)

Well, that's maybe the part you have to get over, too, because I just. At some point. And again, I say this as someone who taken me a long time to get to where I'm at and to get over myself of being right. Right. Again. I know how to shun people. Like, I'm awesome at it. I. I think your husband has to practice some empathy for your mom, which is gonna maybe sound crazy to him, but there's a level of pity your mom deserves in the sense that, like, she is a road map for what you, neither of you want for yourselves or your family. And your mom is a product of someone who's made poor choices for herself, and these are the consequences of her actions. And allowing your mom to just, like, enjoy whatever life she has, knowing that it's probably not the life that anyone want for themselves. Like, you don't need to punish her. You know what I'm saying? And I think sometimes we want to punish people and we want to let them know, like, this. You know, you did this. And it's just like, just, your mom makes poor choices, and people who make poor choices make poor choices after poor choices. And again, the reason why your mom hates the line and gives consequences of actions because your mom's probably always felt those consequences for her terrible choices. And she doesn't know how to make good choices for herself. And it's not an excuse to forgive her. But I don't think you need to pile on, like, I just. Out of pettiness.

Rachel (104:57)

Yeah, you're right.

Nick (104:58)

And let this woman just live her life. It already kind of sucks.

Rachel (105:04)

I mean, I wouldn't say it's pettiness. I would say it's bitterness. But, yeah, that is something that I need to work on.

Nick (105:10)

Let it be like, a reminder of how. How important is to make good, healthy choices. And the fact that you and your husband have the good thing going. And your mom, you have a front row seat of everything you don't want your life to turn out to be.

Rachel (105:25)

Yeah.

Nick (105:26)

And that's the silver lining.

Rachel (105:27)

You're right. I needed to hear that for myself, so that was good. Thank you.

Nick (105:33)

Yeah. All right, well, sorry you're going. I mean, that's not fun.

Rachel (105:36)

No.

Nick (105:37)

Not fun.

Rachel (105:37)

It's not.

Nick (105:39)

It's your husband's job to protect your emotions, too, and to be empathetic to you and not to cause you emotional distress. And he might be right, but he is still, as a consequence of holding this line, hurting you emotionally.

Rachel (105:56)

Yeah.

Nick (105:56)

And he needs to know that, and he needs to acknowledge that. And if he wants to, like, keep holding this line, then he needs to sit with the reality, whether it's coming from a podcaster or not, that, like, he's not fully doing his job as a husband by holding this line. And he could do his job as a husband and as a father, being the protective dad and the supportive husband at the same time. He can do that, and he is choosing not to out of pride.

Rachel (106:24)

Yeah, I agreed. I mean, I hate to say it, but there have been a couple times when I have flat out said, I feel like you are the best dad in the entire world, but you haven't been the best husband.

Nick (106:37)

You've said that to him?

Rachel (106:38)

I've said that to him.

Nick (106:39)

What does he say?

Rachel (106:40)

He didn't argue it. He just. Just said he'll think about that and try to work on that.

Nick (106:44)

He can do both. It's a choice.

Rachel (106:46)

Yeah.

Nick (106:46)

It's a choice.

Rachel (106:47)

Yeah.

Nick (106:48)

Yeah. And honestly, what's annoying about this one is that this costs him nothing to be both.

Rachel (106:53)

Yeah. I mean, it's like he thinks he's as invested as I am in the emotions of what has happened with my parents and them not working out. And, I mean, I get it. Like I said, we've been together Since.

Nick (107:06)

No, but it's ridiculous because. Did he go to therapy with your mom?

Renee (107:10)

Yeah.

Nick (107:10)

No.

Rachel (107:10)

No, he did not.

Nick (107:11)

And he didn't because he didn't care enough to. And that's fine. Nor would I. But you did because she's your mom. And that relationship, as damaged as it was, was that important to you because it's your mom.

Renee (107:22)

Yeah, you're right.

Nick (107:22)

For him to pretend that he's just as emotionally affected by this and it hurts him just as much is like.

Sam (107:28)

It's.

Nick (107:30)

He needs to listen to this episode. It'll piss him off. All right. I'd love an update.

Rachel (107:37)

I would love to give you an update. I'll definitely let you know if I have him listen.

Nick (107:40)

All right.

Rachel (107:41)

Okay.

Nick (107:41)

And feel free to invite him next time.

Rachel (107:45)

I didn't know that was an option.

Nick (107:46)

So that was. Yeah, it is.

Rachel (107:48)

Yeah. I mean, that could be good. But, you know, he barely will do therapy, so I'm not sure.

Nick (107:54)

Well, that's room for growth. I mean, if he's.

Rachel (107:57)

Yep.

Nick (107:57)

The good news about stubborn people is like. And people who can be a little self righteous is that like, there's a way to get through to them. And that is like, he doesn't want to. Your husband does not want to be a failure.

Rachel (108:10)

That's true.

Nick (108:11)

And. And you can use that to your advantage.

Rachel (108:13)

Yeah, I will be able to frame it that way. That's good. I really appreciate it, Nick. You've been super helpful.

Nick (108:20)

Well, take care. Thanks for the call.

Rachel (108:22)

Thank you.

Nick (108:23)

All right. Bye. Bye. Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk. We have no stores. That means no small talk. Crazy weather we're having. No, it's not. It's just weather. It is an int. Introvert's dream. Give it a try. @minmobile.com Switch upfront payment of 45 for 3 month plan. 15 per month equivalent required.

Renee (109:03)

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