E1014 Ask Nick with Dylan Efron - Mr. Perfect Liar

Summary

The Viall Files: Ask Nick with Dylan Efron – Mr. Perfect Liar

Episode 1014 | October 13, 2025
Host: Nick Viall
Co-host: Dylan Efron

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Episode Overview

In this "Ask Nick" episode, Nick Viall is joined by guest co-host Dylan Efron (fresh off Dancing with the Stars) to field listener calls about dating, relationships, and life's messier emotional moments. True to the show’s signature candor and empathy, Nick and Dylan give nuanced, tough-love advice. From murky dating intentions and anxious attachment styles, to religious guilt post-“hoe” era, and navigating custody drama with an ex, the duo offers relatable reflections, personal anecdotes, and actionable takeaways—all in signature Viall Files tone: earnest, jokey, and unfiltered.

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Key Discussions and Insights

1. Nick & Dylan Catch Up: Dancing with the Stars & Navigating Public Life

[04:00 – 10:56]

• Dylan Efron shares his experience on Dancing with the Stars, talking about dancing styles, the physical challenge, and the support from his girlfriend Courtney.

  "It's so much fun. Like, I knew it was going to be a challenge, and it's so out of my comfort zone, but I'm in love. Like, I love it so much more than I ever thought I would." – Dylan [06:13]

• Discussion about how newfound public attention and career changes impact relationships and staying connected.

  "We started traveling together a lot more... I think incorporating her more into that has helped our relationship a lot." – Dylan [07:37]

• The importance of mutual support and incorporating partners into busy lifestyles.
• Playful banter about being up for “Sexiest Man Alive” (in subcategories), and trading fitness compliments.

  "I'm just happy to be included in the same category as Dylan Efron..." – Nick [09:32] "You burned so many calories!" – Dylan on dancing’s effect [10:17]

2. Caller #1: Jessica – Is He Mr. Perfect or Mr. Perfect Liar?

[11:27 – 54:05]

The Dilemma:

Jessica, 30, is dating a man (“Damon”) she met on Bumble but becomes suspicious when his story about canceling a date doesn’t match his Bumble location.

Key Segments:

• The questionable cancellation:

  "He claimed that he was helping his parents or something... but Bumble showed he opened the app from another city." – Jessica [13:09, 14:07]

• The Importance of Location Clues:

  • Jessica uses Bumble’s location update to verify Damon’s claimed whereabouts.

• Mixed signals & honesty issues:

  • Damon gives a convoluted story about helping move a porch and someone being injured, but is evasive when Jessica probes for specific details.

    "Even if he didn't know it off the top of his head, a quick...it's weird." – Nick [17:07]

  • His explanations appear performative and possibly dishonest.

• Sex and Vulnerability:

  "You crossed a threshold of vulnerability...out of fear of losing what you thought you had." – Nick, exploring why Jessica slept with Damon the night her gut flagged his honesty [21:53, 45:41]

  • Jessica reflects on her “anxious” attachment and admits to struggling with trusting new partners due to past lies.

• What are we? Navigating Exclusive Conversations:

  "If you're not having the exclusive conversation, then I'm assuming that you must at least accept that he's probably still on the apps." – Nick [26:21]

  • Jessica maintains her issue wasn’t exclusivity, but Damon’s dishonesty—a recurring pain point from her dating history.

• Nick & Dylan’s Core Advice:

  • Nick emphasizes the value of directness—communicate your standards and honesty early, don’t wait for a “red flag” moment.

    "Don’t have the bar so low with men...just because a guy is being a gentleman doesn't make him prince Charming." – Nick [37:30]

  • Dylan encourages Jessica to seek green flags instead of red, accept some ambiguity early on, and focus on confidence.

    "Looking for more green flags and looking for less red flags and just being like, wow, this guy has potential. And eventually…he might get there." – Dylan [43:15]

• Self-Reflection and Moving Forward:

  "Just because you had a good first date, don’t crown them…" – Nick [46:35]

  • Jessica is urged to retain her “power” and be intentional about her choices in sex and exclusivity.

  "I also want you to know, too, that you’re not doing anything wrong… have faith that you’re, you know, what you’re doing and what you want…” – Dylan [47:05]

Memorable Moment:

• Jessica concludes by reflecting on her difficulties in finding the elusive combination of attraction and emotional depth as she approaches her 30s.

  "It's just really hard to find men that meet all my kind of…" – Jessica [48:48]

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3. Caller #2: Summer – Religious Guilt, Serial Monogamy & the "Hoe/Boy" Era

[60:11 – 80:19]

The Dilemma:

Summer, 30, a former youth pastor and serial monogamist, is in her “boy era,” enjoying singlehood and exploring her sexuality but struggling with residual religious shame.

Key Moments:

• Background and Growth:

  • Summer recounts a lifetime of back-to-back serious relationships and the realization that much of her confidence was tied to romantic partnership.

    "Now that I'm actually experiencing being single, I feel like it's really been a test to… feel confident without another partner with me." – Summer [61:33]

  • Shares her journey from saving herself for marriage to embracing sexual agency, while also pursuing a master’s in counseling psychology.

• Religious Guilt and Personal Evolution:

  "I'm still a person who believes in the teachings of what I believe Jesus was… but there is still, I think, some of that, like, deep-rooted religious trauma." – Summer [65:09]

• Hookup Culture vs. Authentic Desire:

  • Admits to “having a little roster” but felt genuine disappointment when a promising two-week connection fizzled, triggering old wounds.

    "That one really hurt for some reason." – Summer [66:06]

• Advice from Nick & Dylan:

  • Nick relates to the religious and serial monogamist background, urges her to stay open to real connections, and not over-correct into radical independence.

    "The happiest I've ever been is still in a relationship… don't put a timeline [on it].” – Nick [69:28]

  • Dylan emphasizes her growth and advises seeking a “happy medium,” not closing herself off to relationships or relationships alone.

  "If that's the goal, you… seek that." – Dylan [71:57]

• On Remaining Connected to Faith/Church:

  "Humans are obnoxious people who weaponize religion to their own benefit a hundred percent." – Nick [76:52]

  • Both encourage Summer to follow her own values and relationship to her faith rather than worry about community judgment.

Memorable Quotes:

• "Happy people don't spend their energy judging others all that much." – Nick [78:26]
• "When you look back at your life, you're like, I experienced life to its fullest…" – Dylan [75:37]

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4. Caller #3: Taylor – Dating a Guy with a "Crazy Baby Mama"

[85:19 – 107:54]

The Dilemma:

Taylor, 33, is dating a man recently divorced (2 years) with three kids and joint custody. She finds his relationship with his ex-wife "uncomfortably close"—involving post-divorce hookups and excessive interdependence—while she herself is the first girlfriend since the divorce.

Key Moments:

• Red Flag Behaviors:

  • The ex-wife frequently calls and asks for non-parenting favors; post-divorce intimacy was disclosed late by Taylor’s boyfriend.

  “I've been on speakerphone when she's called him and she calls him quite often and would call him for things outside of the kids and that was kind of weird to me.” – Taylor [85:53]

• Boundary-Setting Attempts & Fallout:

  • When her boyfriend tries to set boundaries, his ex reacts with hostility, threatens child support/custody changes, and intensifies manipulative tactics.

    “She basically was like, well, you can get the F out of my house then. And was threatening to take him back to court for child support…” – Taylor [87:44]

  • The ex wants to engineer a "happy, blended" co-parenting family, masking her attempts to keep power and possibly sabotage Taylor’s relationship.

• Nick & Dylan’s Advice:

  • Nick highlights the importance of Taylor’s boyfriend prioritizing her, maintaining boundaries, and realizing he doesn’t owe his ex explanations for “why” past the fact of his new life.

    “He just has to learn that no is sufficient enough for her.” – Nick [98:18]

  • Dylan encourages Taylor to avoid unnecessary involvement or drama with the ex; boundaries, slow progress, and focusing inward are key.

    “My two cents is to not get involved. I think the further she is removed from the situation, the better…” – Dylan [101:45]

• Risk Assessment:

  "I'm a huge believer in being upfront and honest with yourself about the risks you're taking...There are variables at play outside of your control." – Nick [100:06]

Memorable Moments/Quotes:

• "You're the crisis." – Nick (on Taylor’s presence triggering the ex-wife's breakdown) [104:24]
• "She wants to see what she can get him to do.” – Nick [98:18]

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “Just because a guy is being a gentleman doesn't make him prince Charming.” – Nick [37:30]
• “Looking for more green flags and looking for less red flags and just being like, wow, this guy has potential.” – Dylan [43:15]
• "Happy people don't spend their energy judging others all that much." – Nick [78:26]
• "He just has to learn that no is sufficient enough for her." – Nick [98:18]
• "If you want honesty, right? ... But you're not actually being totally that either." – Nick to Jessica, pressing on self-accountability [40:41]
• "When you look back at your life, you're like, I experienced life to its fullest…" – Dylan [75:37]
• "You crossed a threshold of vulnerability… out of fear of losing what you thought you had.” – Nick to Jessica [45:41]
• "You're the crisis." – Nick to Taylor [104:24]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:00] Catchup: Dancing with the Stars / public life/relationship impact
• [11:27] Jessica’s Call: Honesty and dating ambiguity
• [26:21] Conversations about exclusivity/expectation setting
• [43:15] Green flags v red flags in early dating
• [60:11] Summer’s Call: Singlehood, religious shame, self-worth
• [76:46] Faith, church, judgment & empowerment
• [85:19] Taylor’s Call: Coparenting, boundaries, ex drama
• [98:18] Practical boundary advice: “No” is a sufficient explanation
• [104:24] “You’re the crisis” quote—sums up the ex’s turmoil

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Final Takeaways

• Be Direct and Self-Aware: Know your attachment style, communicate expectations, and don’t reward dishonesty with vulnerability.
• Seek Green Flags, Accept Some Imperfection: No one is “Mr./Ms. Perfect” on date one. Growth, not perfection, should be the goal.
• Balance Self-Purpose and Openness: Enjoy the freedoms of singlehood, but stay open to meaningful connections—neither “team single” or “team coupled” is inherently superior.
• Own Your Choices: Whether sex, faith, or boundaries, make choices from your genuine values, not fear or conformity.
• Drama with Exes Requires Boundaries and Patience: When dating divorced parents, know your limits and require your partner to handle their own messes—with your support, not micromanagement.

The episode blends tough love and encouragement, heavy on self-reflection, realistic expectations, and reminders to lead with integrity—whether in a ballroom, a church, or on the first date.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Nick]

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[Summer]

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[Nick]

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[Taylor]

You're crazy.

[Nick]

Dylan. Welcome back to the show.

[Dylan]

I'm stoked to be here.

[Nick]

I'm very stoked to have you. Yeah. The first time you came on here, you, you flattered me by saying that you, you used to listen to some Ass Nick episodes.

[Dylan]

Yeah, I still do.

[Nick]

I love that. This is of all the shows that we do, this is my favorite show. It's like a passion project. I actually feel like we, we actually help people.

[Dylan]

Well, you're good at it. Like I, when I, when you first asked me, I'm like I'm gonna love this, but I'm also gonna be as helpful as your dentist would be. Like I, I'm not gonna give good advice, but I love it.

[Nick]

I, I, I think you'll be surprised. You know People always say, like, they ask me, like, why, you know, are you good at why? How are you good at advice? Well, like, I'm old enough to have made plenty of mistakes and tried to have learned from them. I think you're gonna surprise yourself.

[Dylan]

We'll see. You have to give me a score. So bring it back to Dancing with those Stars. Give me a score at the end.

[Nick]

Because also, that's why I love about this show, too. It's just like, you know, when we do the other shows, like, really, you know, I certainly love interviewing people. When we talk, like, pop culture and reality TV stuff, it's just like, I certainly love giving my opinion, but it's. It's like Hazard Pay, where this is. I think it's. It's the most honest way I can, like, show people who I am as a person. Because you can be a little bit vulnerable without, like, sharing too much about yourself if you don't want to. And I surprisingly, like to be a private person. Yeah, people are going to really enjoy hearing your perspective, because I think they just enjoy hearing from you, period. But before we get to our first calls, obviously you're. You're on Dancing with the Stars, and we want to talk a little bit about this. We are recording this eight days before the episode's going to come out. So, Dylan, I. I'm. I'm going to be guessing you're not.

[Dylan]

Getting eliminated next time, I hope.

[Nick]

I hope so. I'm banking on that.

[Dylan]

We're doing a quick step right now.

[Nick]

A quick step?

[Dylan]

Yeah. So we just did a foxtrot, and it's kind of nice because foxtrot was my first time in frame. Okay, quick steps. Still in frame, but it's, like, a lot faster. So we're going to be running around that stage. I think it's a good progression, though, because I struggled with the flak shot. Dude, the frame is so much easier for me than, like, I think that classic ballroom. I'm tall and long, so, like, I can build out.

[Nick]

I had a heart. I know. I just struggled with it. It felt like.

[Dylan]

I don't know, dude. The Latin stuff's way harder. Like, you saw my weeks one and two. I was out there shaking it.

[Nick]

It's fun to watch you, man. It always brings me back. But you are. You're having a good time.

[Dylan]

It's so much fun. Like, I knew it was going to be a challenge, and it's so out comfort zone, but I'm in love. Like, I love it so much more than I ever thought I Would. Courtney's been every show.

[Nick]

She's enjoying it.

[Dylan]

Yeah, she loves it. She doesn't like the camera in her face every. Every time. It was like, she always, like, can I just go and, like, not sit in the recorded seats? And then, sure enough, the camera's right there the whole time.

[Nick]

She's definitely a pretty private person.

[Dylan]

Yeah. She's getting used to it, though. Like, I'm so happy she's there every week.

[Nick]

Because you. You know, your brother obviously, has been a big star for a while. I knew of your existence a few years back. I think one day, like, the Internet was like, oh, that guy friend has a brother and he's hot. And I was like, oh, y. But, like, seriously, lately, ever since you went on Traders and now you're Dancing with the Stars, your star has been rising, you know, like, you have become a real public figure. You're very humble guy with it. But, like, how has your girlfriend and your relationship. We talk a lot about connection on this show, like staying connected. And Nelly and I, that's something we. In past relationships. I never thought about that word. And tangibly, in a sense, where it makes sense. But in our relationship now, with therapy we've done and things like that, we're mindful of how connected or disconnected we are at any given moment. And obviously, with you being busy and the attention you get, how do you and Courtney stay connected and how has she been with this recent success that you've had in the public eye?

[Dylan]

I wouldn't say much has changed. So the cool thing that's changed is we started traveling together a lot more. So, like, for a lot of these, like, trips I'll do with brands or whatever, I get to bring her with me. So it's like, I think incorporating her more into that has helped our relationship a lot. Yeah. And then I. I would be lying if Dancing with the Stars wasn't tough, but I. I think it's tougher on Courtney than me. Just because we're in the studio five hours a day.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You're the.

[Dylan]

Like, you're my brain's mush. My body hurts. So it's like we're actually, like, I'm living outside of our Manhattan beach place, closer to where the studio is, so that it's trying right now. But, like, she's so supportive. She knows I love her a hundred percent. So it's like, we're. We know it's all temporary, and, like, so that's why I don't think anything's really changed. Like, I know it's hard for us right now, but we're still where we are. We still love each other, and it's. Yeah, we're in a great place like that.

[Nick]

You mentioned, like, the tr. Like, doing things together when you travel and stuff. Like, that's something that Natalie and I are pretty intentional about. Or we just, you know, we have busy lifestyles, so it doesn't feel. We're never suffocating each other because there's a lot of variety. We also just like hanging out together, like, which I think is important. But, yeah, it sounds like you guys have a. Have a good thing going. Before we get to our callers, Dylan and I share the same publicist. She's here in the background. She wants us to plug that. Jill and I are both up for Sexiest Man Alive and separate categories, and.

[Dylan]

It'S not Sexiest Man Alive. When I first saw that, I was like, no way. I'm.

[Nick]

What is it?

[Dylan]

It's a subcategory.

[Nick]

It's part. It's a subcategory. Yeah. We don't qualify for sexiest.

[Dylan]

So it's subcategory.

[Nick]

I'm tattoos, which I'm a little offended by. Well, I get. But maybe it's like the. The dog tattoos and the butterflies don't. Don't cut it. Dylan does to have sexy tattoos, though, I guess. I'm up for a Sexiest podcast host.

[Dylan]

That's honestly, like, there's a lot of podcast hosts.

[Nick]

I'm just happy to be included in the same category as Dylan Efron. And Dylan is competing on Dancing with the Stars every Tuesday night, and he needs your support. So be sure to text Dylan to 21523 and make sure that this man gets to the finals. Getting to the finals matters. Winning. That's more of an ego thing.

[Dylan]

No, getting to the finals is the goal because that's. That means I, like, I juiced it as much as I could. No. Like, I got as much time.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

Of learning to dance as I could go to.

[Nick]

Go to people.com and find the sexiest.

[Dylan]

Go to sexiest men.com.

[Nick]

That'S so weird. I don't.

[Dylan]

I don't know if you want to Google that.

[Nick]

When I was talking about Dancing with the Stars days, I was ripped.

[Dylan]

Dude, you burned so much calories.

[Nick]

And Natalie feels a little cheated that I. I don't. I'm not carrying quite the same physique. And a couple times she has sent me photos of you as inspiration.

[Dylan]

It's. It's honestly crazy, though. It's Like, I. I'm. I'm normally pretty fit. As soon as I started dancing, ripped it. My pant size has gone down. I'm like a 30, right? Or 31.

[Nick]

I'm a 31. It's my own pants. Hands with diamonds. I haven't had sugar all year.

[Dylan]

Wow. Yeah, but it's just activity. It's like I'm. We're dancing for four hours, so it's not like I'm lifting weights. It's literally I'm just moving and I'm losing so much weight that really, you.

[Nick]

Made out turned me on. Anyways, I'm stopped hitting on Dylan. Well, I mean, I know our callers are waiting for us, so how about we just dive into the caller? So I know you've listened before. I don't. I don't read these calls. So, like, my producers will select them. I go in blind.

[Dylan]

Oh, I love it. That makes me even happier.

[Nick]

So we just kind of active, listen, ask questions as they come up. This is just being at a party, and someone who calls in says, all right, I got to. I got to bend your ear.

[Dylan]

It's the best.

[Nick]

No, there's no wrong. There's no wrong answer.

[Dylan]

I know. Let's get into it.

[Nick]

So let's get to our first caller. How's it going?

[Jessica]

Hi, I'm Jessica. I'm 30 years old, and I need to know if I'm dating Mr. Perfect or Mr. Perfect liar.

[Nick]

Okay, well, tell us more about Mr. We don't know yet.

[Jessica]

So his name's Damon.

[Nick]

Is that his real name, or We.

[Jessica]

No, it's a fake name. And we met on Bumble, like, two months ago.

[Dylan]

Okay.

[Jessica]

We had the best first date I've ever had. The chemistry, the connection, Everything was perfect.

[Taylor]

Okay.

[Jessica]

But then something like, on the fifth date, he canceled last minute, but with a really apologetic, like, heartfelt response. And then said that he would explain the whole situation to me on our next date. He planned the next date, and I actually kind of forgot about it because we both work weird hour jobs, but he was prioritizing me.

[Nick]

Why did him. Canceling requirements. A massive explanation as opposed to, like, you know, sometimes things come up, like, was it, like, last minute or, like.

[Jessica]

Yeah, it was last minute.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Jessica]

It was, like, two hours before the date. Okay.

[Nick]

What did he say? Do you have that message?

[Jessica]

Yeah, I do. So he originally was going to just push it back, and then he goes, I really hate to do this. I am so, so sorry. Can we possibly reschedule our sushi movie night? This is going to Take me way longer than I thought. Super annoyed right now. I wanted to let you know though. So you weren't waiting on me? Although I didn't give you much of a notice. I'm very sorry. I will make it up to you, I promise.

[Nick]

So was he like busy at work or something?

[Jessica]

No, he claimed that he was helping his parents or something. Okay. And he didn't really give me much detail. And then I just kind of thumbs up the message because I was slightly annoyed. And then so later that. That was at like 4:30. Our date was supposed to be at 6:30. And something that you should note is that when I was waiting for the date, I went out with my friend and I was kind of showing his profile to her. And I don't know if you know much about Bumble, but it updates your location at the bottom of the profile every time you open the app.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Jessica]

Yeah. And so it showed that. So I'm going to use like a fake location, but it's like the same distance and similar to us. So let's say that he lives in Fort Wayne, Indiana. It was showing that he was in Coldwater, Michigan, which is like an hour 15 away from him. And he lives an hour away from me, already in the opposite direction. So.

[Nick]

Regional dater.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

This might be a dumb question, but are you guys exclusive? Like how. How many. This is like your fifth date at this point.

[Jessica]

Yeah, we were not exclusive.

[Nick]

What conversations, if any, did you have about like the progress? Like. Cause five dates, it's like we didn't.

[Jessica]

Really have a conversation yet. Like we both seemed to be enjoying ourselves and I. He was the only guy I was seeing at that point.

[Nick]

Have you hooked up?

[Jessica]

Not yet.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Jessica]

Not at this point. So at this point we only made out like a heavy makeout session. That's about it. The issue is that that's just where like I noticed. Oh, okay, he's in this area.

[Nick]

You noticed and it got in your head.

[Jessica]

Yes. But the actual issue is if he lied about his excuse. Just so after, like I thumbed up the message. Later that night, he messaged me again saying, I'm sure you're upset with me and rightfully so. I'm very sorry. Again, that's not how I anticipated my afternoon or evening going. Very annoyed and will gladly explain.

[Nick]

Wait, wait. So the same night he canceled, that's when you looked at the location and he was in a different state during the day.

[Jessica]

So he ended up. So at like 2:30 is when he first said that he got caught up with his Parents and couldn't. It might have had to push the date back a couple hours.

[Nick]

But you know where his parents live, and this is not where they live.

[Jessica]

He lives with his parents.

[Dylan]

Okay.

[Jessica]

Because he moved back home a couple months ago. So he's just trying to wait until he can buy a house. So he was not where he was supposed to be, which is. That's not the issue. The issue is when we ended up making up our day. We went to.

[Nick]

Or.

[Jessica]

I completely kind of forgot to bring it up, like, for him to, like, explain the situation. And he brought it up on his own, which I was like, okay, that's kind of a green flag that he went out of his way to bring it back up. But his. His story did not have him out of state. It had him rather close to where he lived, and it didn't really make sense. He claimed that he was helping his parents with. They had like, a rv. They rent a trailer at an RV place, and he was helping them with that. And then their neighbor slash friends try to move a big porch, and he helped them. And then one of the guys dropped the porch on his foot and it broke his, like, toes. And so he had to take him to the hospital.

[Nick]

The guy you're dating broke his toes?

[Jessica]

No, the other guy, one of the neighbors. And he grew up in this area, so he's well familiarized with the hospitals in that area. And I asked him, like, oh, like what hospital? And he goes, oh, I don't know. Had to be this one. And it was. The way that he phrased it sounded weird.

[Nick]

Yeah. Cause even if he didn't know it off the top of his head, a quick, you know, more like, no, it's the one over on, like, that part of town. There would be probably, like, it had to be this one. It's weird.

[Jessica]

Yeah, it was like, weird. And so, like, I just like, kind of notated it. And I could pick up on the vibe from him that he could tell that I was kind of skeptical.

[Nick]

What's your thought, Dylan?

[Dylan]

I'm just. Yeah, I'm. I'm kind of confused why. I don't understand how serious you guys are. I guess my problem, because I don't know why he's feeling the need to explain in such detail to you why he couldn't, like, why he had to miss a date. Like, I. Me personally, I wouldn't have, like, come with a. Like, oh, my gosh, I'll explain it so much. It's like, hey, I'm so sorry. I can't make it like I wouldn't have made an excuse pre ready. So I'm wondering why he felt the need to really make this such a big deal and stuff.

[Nick]

Yeah. To the Dylan's point. And that's why I asked. Early on we're like, you know, stuff comes up we don't like a last minute ditch. But the main thing is someone's willingness to reschedule. It's always like hey, something came up. Can't tonight. That's it. That feels like a flag. Hey, something came up. Really sorry. Like let's rain check for this week and I have time. Like I'm. I'm available. Blah blah, blah. Like that that's really it. It doesn't need like. Yeah.

[Dylan]

Like why did he feel the need to explain? I guess. And I. That's. That's why I'm like me. Are you guys really serious? So he's like just treading on water and doesn't want to upset you. Or maybe he could tell that you were already upset. So he's trying to.

[Nick]

Or he's floundering.

[Dylan]

Yeah. Or he's lying.

[Nick]

Or he's lying.

[Dylan]

So I. I don't know.

[Jessica]

I. I have a pretty good guy and I just. Something fell off. I didn't know what fell felt. Maybe it was like performative. I don't know.

[Nick]

Did you. So like where did you question him? Like did you just.

[Jessica]

I didn't call it out yet because I like to have somewhat of like proof before I ask questions or like that's just part of. I've been lied to so much. I don't like to just ask questions then not know if they're actually lying or not.

[Nick]

What did you do?

[Jessica]

So I like to notate stuff. So I ended up. So that day ended up. We ended up sleeping together that night.

[Nick]

Wait, wait, hold on, hold on.

[Jessica]

So what I was gonna say I ended up so. Because the rest of the date went fine. So I was like maybe so in my head I'm trying to be logical. I was like maybe he opened the app like earlier in the morning and then he.

[Nick]

Fair enough. Minus the details if we're understanding because I feel like we're on the same page here. You were dating this guy. You slow played it relatively maybe. Maybe compared to like normal hookup culture these days. But only had made out you had some plans. He had to reschedule. But his excuse gave you kind of a funny feeling where as you just described your gut, your body told you. I don't know if he's being totally transparent. I don't know if he's being honest. I don't want to, like, jump to conclusions. I'm going to hold off. But that very night, even though he gave you that feeling that this guy might not being honest with you, you were like, you know what? This is a night we should have sex.

[Jessica]

It just. So I do lean more anxious. So I was trying to give him the benefit of a doubt because maybe I was being just like, I'm all for.

[Nick]

I'm all for not jumping to conclusions and giving some of the benefit of the doubt, but, like, that's a threshold you crossed a vulnerability. And again, as we always talk about on this show, like, you know, man, woman, whatever. But, you know, often women tend to be more vulnerable emotionally after. After being intimate with someone for the first time. And it just. That's an interesting choice on your part. It really. It puts you in a very. It just puts you in a more vulnerable position. And I would be curious to ask yourself, why did I do that? Right. You mentioned anxiousness. I know I'm not a big attachment style guy, but maybe you're an anxious attachment and something about your subconscious must have done that to, you know, you were feeling insecure about this guy being honest with you. And instead of like slow playing it, pulling back a little bit and not pulling back to the point where, you know, you're like, this guy or whatever, but just being like, all right, I have. I'm not sure yet. You know, we only been on five dates. He's giving me a bit of a yellow slash red flag moment here. But. But you did the thing where it's just like, well, I want to close the deal, so to speak. And it was more like a subconscious fear of what if he is dating someone else? What if he is interested in someone else? And I would be interested if I were you why you made that decision that you did.

[Jessica]

So we had a movie night that night after dinner, and it just kind of went that way. It's not like, no doubt.

[Dylan]

No doubt.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

Yeah. So I didn't really think too much of it. I like, we. It just like, was an intense makeout that led to that, and he was not pushy. This is another reason why it's so confusing. Confusing because he was never, ever pushy about any of, like, the physical aspects of it. He always kind of let me take the lead on that area. So, like, I dated players before, and typically you can tell when they are a little bit more gun ho on the physical.

[Nick]

Yeah. But those covert players out there Too.

[Jessica]

Yeah. So that's why I just. He must be one of them. Possibly. I don't know.

[Nick]

He also just like, you know, it's. There's a little bit of, like, it just like, just dating culture now where it's, you know, five dates is. It's not a ton amount of time, but, like, it's a decent amount of time. And you didn't do kind of any checking in. So, like, technically he's not really doing anything wrong. And I think a lot of people these days when they're dating people and going on dates, it's like, unless you guys are like, saying, well, all right, we've been on five dates. You know, you were like, I'm not dating anyone else. But it doesn't sound like you really communicated that with him. You made a choice for yourself and you're like, I'm not going to date anyone else because I like him. But you didn't use that as an opportunity to be like, hey, just like, letting you know. I really like where this is going and I'm not really interested in anyone else. I'm not, you know, we don't need to. I don't need you to, like, you know, confess your ever dying love to me.

[Jessica]

So I ended up talking to him when. So that was our fifth date. Then we ended up having a sixth date. That was. That went well. And so on our seventh day is when he ended up having to change his plan. Okay, just because. Which was another one that was a little confusing because he supposedly lives with his parents and he has a dog. His dog should be with his parents. But he claimed that he might have to change his plans. My parents didn't tell me we were going. They were going to watch my sister's dog. And the dogs don't get along, so they can't watch Shay for me. So basically she has to stay with me. Should we do something else? Maybe with the dogs? So it doesn't make sense because if he's living with his parents and. But because after the date that he canceled and I noticed that he was in that other state, Coldwater, Michigan, I continued to, like, kind of keep an eye out. And he was in. He was there a lot, like, often. And on days that he told me that he, like, when he was like, when we were just texting, like, we didn't text 24 7, but we text, like every couple hours.

[Nick]

So at any point did you respond? I thought you lived with your parents.

[Jessica]

So I ended up saying, oh, I'm a little disappointed. That place Looked fun. Can't lie. I'm a little nervous that you're going to cancel like last time, because the last time he tried to start, like, switching up the plans is when he canceled. So we ended up changing the plans to somewhere near us and then keeping his dog with at my place. And then when he got here is when I was like, I. I'm a little confused. Like, why can't the dogs, like, be together? Like, I thought you lived there. And he basically said that it was his dad's fault because his dad agreed to it with his sister and then him and his mom didn't know about it. So it was, he was just kind of playing it off like, oh, dad made this plan and then didn't communicate it to us. So I kind of was and got the shit end of the stick.

[Dylan]

Part of me feels like there's like you, you admittedly already said you're a little bit anxious and skeptical in relationships. Kind of feels like it's a little back and forth. Like he's almost afraid to cancel. So maybe he's coming up with some white lies to like, try to not blow, not, not wind you up. Like he has to cancel, but he doesn't want to say that it was something stupid. So he's like trying to come up with a good excuse. And then you're questioning his excuses. And I think it's, it could be like perpetuating each other a little bit. Like, you are anxious and skeptical. He knows that. So he wants to really, like, make sure that you feel comfortable. Like, and I don't know, maybe that. Maybe it's like self perpetuating in a way.

[Nick]

Well, to that point, I'm curious about you. You know, you date, right? So like, you went on five dates with this guy. Like, you didn't have conversations about like, what are we? Which is totally fine, but you decided that you're not dating other people. So from, from your point of view, like, what are your expectations? If you're not having the exclusive conversation, then I'm assuming that you must at least accept that like he's might be. You met on the app, so he's probably still on the apps. He might be matched with other people. He could be going on other, other dates. So from your point of view, would you want him to tell you, you know, that he's like, juggling other dates? Because I think the problem with dating culture right now is like, well, why not? You know, it's just like, well, so then. But then you get into these excuses that people Start lying, right? Because it's like, well, I don't know, am I supposed to just tell her? Or we do I tell him or. So then, like, something comes up. Maybe it's this other date, right? He literally, for all you know, could have been matched with some other girl that he kind of likes, maybe likes less than you, doesn't really know. And she was like, well, I'm actually going out of town. Tonight's my only night. So he's like, all right, well, I'm gonna cancel with her. And you know what I'm saying? And now he's like, lying to you. I don't. I'm not. I'm not saying that's okay.

[Jessica]

Yeah, that's the area where I. Because at this point, we were not exclusive. I was not. The issue was not him seeing other people. Because when I date, I don't. I, like I said, I like to take things a little bit slower and I expect to them to not automatically cut everyone off because I don't want to just be chosen because they were just like, oh, okay, that's convenient. I want you to pick me because I was. You actually liked me more than, like, other people. Like, I don't want. I want to be the best option. I don't want you just to settle. So I don't expect him just to stop dating other people because we were dating. My issue was the possibility of him lying because, like, I've. I've dated multiple people.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

And I've. I've never lied to somebody. Like, if they said, oh, what are you doing tonight? I just say, oh, I have dinner planned. I don't say, oh, I'm seeing my sister. And like, make this extravagant lie. Because if you're lying that easily now, like, what else are you going to lie about? That's kind of where my head was concerned because I'm a really straight up person.

[Nick]

How old is he?

[Jessica]

He's 30.

[Nick]

Okay, that's great that you are, and I agree with you. I. I do think that a lot of people justify these white lies, especially when there's a lack of understanding what the expectations are between two people and it doesn't justify what he's doing. But if you're someone who really values directness and honesty, then that's how you should communicate. You know, I brought this up multiple times with Ronnie Wu, a former therapist, celebrity chef, and he talked about, like, set the expectations of how you want to communicate. If you want someone to text you back right away, don't wait three hours or a Day. You know, like, don't. You know, a lot of times people, like, don't text back right away because they don't want to sound too eager. But, like, as soon as. As soon as someone texts back right away, then it's like a green light of, like, how to communicate. Right. So you need to maybe be more direct with what your expectations are, and I think that would just help you out. Yeah.

[Jessica]

Well, I confirmed in the beginning of our dating that he was serious about dating. Like, I asked him what his intentions were with dating. He said that he was dating for marriage.

[Taylor]

Sure.

[Nick]

That's so vague.

[Jessica]

No, exactly. And so I ended up on the seventh day after we ended up going bowling, and. And we had dinner, and then we went bowling, and we were having, like, a really good time. And then towards the end of it, I brought up the conversation. I basically said it was like, a temperature check. I was like, kind of just wanted to do a temperature check, see how you're feeling. And he was, like, extremely vague. He was like, I'm having a good time with you. Like, I enjoy getting to know you. And I was like, well, that's. I literally said, well, that's. That's a very vague answer. And he was like, well, I don't know what you want me to say. I can't sit here and say that I'm falling in love with you. And I was like, okay, I don't appreciate you doing that. Like, you're, like, putting this back on me and twisting it into something that it's not when you know exactly what I'm asking, like, on where you stand here. And then he went back to, well, I'm. I'm dating to Mary. And then. So. And he goes, I'm just in a weird place right now because I'm living with my parents, and I'm looking to buy a house over in, like, the Michigan area, let's say, so kind of the area where he's been. And he goes, and so I would be a little further away from you. And I was like, that's okay. Like, I enjoy my independence, so that's not an issue for me. I ended up saying, like, speaking of Michigan, what's in Coldwater, Michigan? And he, like, looks like a deer with an, like, in headlights and was like, oh, well, my cousins live in Coldwater. I was like, okay. And I kind of just, like, told them outright. I was like, the day that you. You canceled, I was. Happened to be on Bumble showing your profile to my friend, and it did show your location there. And it's kind of popped up there several times since then. So I'm just kind of curious on if you could have been like, fibbing on the reason why you canceled. And he didn't really respond with an answer. He kind of was just saying, like, oh, I'm sorry. Like, I did, like, I did open my bumble when I was over there. Like, I apologize for that. I'm like, that's not why. That's not what I'm asking. And that's not the concern here. Like, we're not exclusive. That wasn't my issue. My issue was the possibility of you, like, lying. And he was like, well, you seem like you already know or you already believe what you're thinking. So, like, I don't really know what else to say. And that's really all he gave me.

[Nick]

Yeah, I hate this response from him.

[Dylan]

Yeah, yeah, it sounds like he's just not ready. It sounds like you're more ready than him. And like, I, I think that's a step back. Like, if you're. It seems like you're more in than him and maybe it's just time to take a little bit step back. It doesn't mean it's not going to work out or anything, but it's like. And maybe I just don't understand dating culture, but, like, you can have an incredibly emotional relationship from phone calls and texts and like, stay in touch and. And like, maybe the timing isn't right for him right now, but that doesn't mean it's not going to work. So I don't, I don't know, it feels like. It just feels like you're a little bit more ready at this time than him.

[Jessica]

So it's not done. His lack of communication, like, it's been.

[Nick]

Yeah, give it. Give us the. Where are we now?

[Jessica]

So I was about to say it's been like a week since I've spoken to him because we came back for him to, like, pick up his dog. And as he was like, getting his things together, I kind of was just like standing there. Like, we're standing there in silence because he wasn't giving me anything. And then. So he puts his stuff in his car, comes, gets his dog, walks out, doesn't say a word, and leaves. I have not heard from him since. I just need to know that I self sabotage this.

[Nick]

No, I, I def. Listen, I, I definitely have some notes for you.

[Taylor]

Okay.

[Nick]

But I don't think you self sabotaged it. I don't think you did anything wrong that would change this outcome. With this guy, to Dylan's point, I completely with agree that. Agree that he's probably just not in the right state of mind. And if you've listened to the show, like you've heard me say, and I didn't realize this at the time, just how I think, especially for men, if they don't feel established with other aspects of their life, I think it's really hard for them to commit. They really, I think a lot of especially guys have to feel like a sense of purpose. They have to see their future in their kind of current state. When I moved to la, living, you know, at my buddy's place, like, not knowing, like, quitting my job and just like out here, just like hustling. I was dating like crazy. And I was certainly like, you know, I was in my mid-30s, so if you asked, I was like, yeah, I want to meet someone for sure. I'm. I'm dating to marry for sure. Like, that was definitely my answer. But I just don't feel like I realized how difficult it was for me to mentally really commit to anyone because, like, I was living at my buddy's place, you know, I didn't feel like, you know, I was still figuring out myself in a sense or what I was going to do. That's not an excuse, but I think for the ladies out there, if you're dating a guy who's living at home, anything that sounds transitional, you know, hates his job, complains about his career, you know, yeah, like, hey, I'm saving money for, for I'm living at home, like, saving money or living with a friend, like, that's definitely a red flag in terms of whether they want to settle down or not. It's a huge red flag for their actual ability to really be in a place where they really want to. It's very easy for men to say, well, I mean, yeah, I mean, I want to, like, settle down someday for sure. You know, like, they all mean it. Like I've always said, like, even in my book, like, every fuck boy wants to get married someday. You know, like they all. They're. And they're going to someday. They will find their parrot, you know.

[Dylan]

I've never thought about that, though. It's a little bit of a subconscious that, like, before you're ready to commit, you want to make sure that you are monetarily, like, yeah, you can actually provide for a family. It's like, subconscious, you know, you can do it without needing to be the provider. But it, but there is a part of you. Yeah, there's a part of you that's like, no, I, I want to take care of my family. I want to, I want to build something around it.

[Nick]

You want to feel settled and things like that. And so I think it's just in general when you're meeting men who give off that, this kind of energy, I would just proceed with caution. It doesn't mean they're incapable, but I would doubt their ability to actually commit.

[Jessica]

Because just like in all the other areas, he seemed like genuine. Like he was actively pursuing me. He was talking to me, but not overly talking to me. But there were like thoughtful messages because.

[Nick]

He is probably a guy who wants to like have. He probably likes having a girlfriend. He probably does want to settle down. He's an early 30 year old, so it's not like he's 22.

[Jessica]

I guess my concern is how do. Because if I didn't have him, like if we met in the wild and I didn't meet him on Bumble and I didn't see happen to see his location and catch him in that possible lie, how do I filter this?

[Nick]

Yeah, but I don't think, I think you checking the location just maybe sped up the inevitable because again, he was already canceling plans. He was getting a little flaky and inconsistent again. I think the most important part of this call was the fact that you hooked up with him that night. And I think you need to be mindful of that kind of your subconscious choices. And my big thing is get yours, you know, have your sex. I'm not here to tell people when to have sex. I've had one night stands. Like I've had meaningless sex. Have some fun. But you got to separate hookup culture and dating culture and you know, and I think for men and women and just like again, like, I don't know how you respond to like sex and being intimate with someone, but I think you should just be honest with yourself about how you do respond and how that affects you emotionally and just be careful about, about that. Like, you know, and again, like when you say and don't have the bar so low with men in the sense that like, I know there's a lot of pushy guys out there who after the first date are, you know, giving you the moves and you know, like this guy just wants to fuck, you know, like I, I get that. But just because a guy is being a gentleman doesn't make him prince Charming. And it doesn't mean he's still not a guy who if you want to have sex, he's down to have sex with you. Right? You're like, you know what I'm saying? Because, yeah, like, he sounds like a respectful, decent guy, right, who probably someday wants to get married and he's well intentioned, but he's out there dating and he's on the apps and he met you and probably met some other people, and he got a little messy with how he communicated. And I think your communication could be a lot better. And I think you could be more honest with yourself about what your expectations with dating are. And you mentioned, well, I want a guy to pick me for this and that. We all want to be chosen. I get that. But I strongly believe this. Like, if you. If you're dating in 2025, especially if you're on the apps, if even. Hell, I think you should lie. I'm kind of cutting. But, like, tell a guy you have another date. If you're. If you are casually dating and you guys aren't exclusive, do not be afraid to tell a guy that other men are pursuing you. You know, do not put yourself on the sideline for him. You know, like, if you want to stop dating someone because you like them, great, but do not. Like, there's this weird thing that I think, like, women do where they feel like you are. You're letting him know that you're ready to date him and you're ready to be chosen subconsciously. If you stop dating other, other men, and I think men will. If he really likes you, you dating some other guy will fuck him up in the best possible way. And even if you don't have a date, I wouldn't be afraid to just be like, yeah, I mean, I got a date tonight. And I wouldn't say I have dinner plans. I would say I have a date.

[Jessica]

Okay. I was gonna say, because, like, I typically do date multiple people at once. It's just, I enjoyed him and I didn't have any other pursuers that, like, I actually wanted to date. So that's kind of where I was at.

[Nick]

That's totally fine. But I'm just saying be direct.

[Jessica]

If I like, make. Make him feel like he has competition, sure.

[Nick]

But, like, you know, you don't have to be manipulative about it. But, like, it. You said I usually say I have dinner plans. Just. No, say I have a. Yeah, if someone calls, if you have a date with another guy and you're dating some other guy who, for whatever reason, you two haven't had any type of, like, what are we then? You don't. You beat, you know, and Again, your whole thing calling in is like, I want honesty, right? I want a guy to be honest with me. I want him to be transparent. But you're not. You're not actually being totally that either, because again, it's not like I have dinner plans. Is an admission of the truth when in reality, you have a date and you. And you're withholding that information. And that's slightly better than what we all are assuming he did, which is like, he probably had plans with another woman and he made up more of a lie. Yours was an omission of the complete truth. You know, yours is better. But what's. You know, it's not fully the truth. And if two people aren't exclusive, if they're allowed to date other people, then do that, right? And it will be attractive to men. It will. It will, because you will be honest and you'll be confident and you'll be direct and you will force the conversations that ultimately you have a hard time. It sounds like instigating, which is like, when do I ask a guy, what are we? When do I ask about exclusivity? When do I, like, set those expectations?

[Jessica]

Normally, I'm really open. I think that whole thing got me, like, I was still trying to gather details and information for myself before I had that conversation, because I still didn't know if I wanted to continue pursuing him. If I found out that he was like, I guess, lying and answering on me.

[Dylan]

I'm. I'm like, now I'm going back to the original question, which is like, is this Mr. Perfect or Perfect Liar? And I think maybe part of it, too is just like a little bit of changing mindset of, like, I don't think when you're on the, like a six date or whatever, you're gonna find Mr. Perfect. I like relationships evolve so much as you get to know people. So maybe looking for more green flags and looking for less red flags and just being like, wow, this guy has potential. And like, maybe the more we see each other, he's going to become that Mr. Perfect to me. But I think the odds that you're going to find Mr. Perfect on that first date is so low. It's like relationships just evolve and you. They become. They. You start to understand people more and see what you want. So I think he's neither.

[Nick]

Yeah, he's perfect or a perfect liar.

[Dylan]

And I think. I think he could become Mr. Perfect. And I think it's just like that mindset of, like, wow, there's so many green flags. I've been Burned in the past. It sounds like you have. So you're. You're looking for these red flags. Everyone's gonna have red flags. They're like, you're. If you're looking for them, you're gonna find them. But maybe this guy had a lot of green flags that he could focus on and, and eventually, like, it might get there. But I think it's. It's.

[Jessica]

Well, we haven't spoke to for a week.

[Nick]

I'm guessing.

[Dylan]

I'm guessing this guy's not it, but I'm guessing he's not it, but in the future.

[Nick]

And your question about did I self sabotage, I'm guessing is coming from a place of how things got communicated. I think you got mad and I think you weren't confident about like, can I say this? Can I not say this? Because again, we're not boyfriend and girlfriend. And things get a little muddy when you have expectations, but those expectations aren't communicated. And then he could tell that you got mad, and then he was like, well, I don't want to even deal with it. So his, like, picking up his dog and walking out was like. And I feel like that's a fairly typical situation. I would just love for you to really hold yourself accountable and just be confident in what you're bringing to the table and, and just be direct with the guys that you are casually dating or seeing. You got to start asking a little bit more direct questions, you know, like, don't. Don't ask the vague questions. You'll get the vague answers like, are you dating other people? You know, I just want to make. I'm not. If you are, that's fine. I'm not saying it's bad, but I just want to know. Especially after you're intimate with someone, you have a right to know. You have a right to know if they're. They have other sexual partners and things like that. That's just being. Having safe sex.

[Dylan]

And I guess that's where Nick was saying, like, you don't even have to see other people. But you could say, like, hey, I'm so sorry, like, I got an asked on a date. I. I wanted to ask you before I went. And like, even. Even something like that, that's just like, could be a total lie. But, but. But then you're gonna see like, he's. If he's like, oh, go for it. Like, just see what changes or something. Like, I think there is something to holding your power and not letting your anxiousness get the best of you and just try to get on the same.

[Nick]

Page when you found out he might be up to something instead of, to Dylan's point, holding your power, you became more vulnerable. And instead of saying, I'm not sure, red flag, pull back, ask more questions.

[Dylan]

You push the chips all in.

[Nick]

Yeah. You felt powerless. Right. You liked the guy. That's fine. You know, you became less certain where you stood with him, and so you allowed him to have all that power out of fear of losing what you thought you had. And when. As soon as you called in. And, you know, I know the callers, like, will hear this, but, like, I find when someone says, I had the best first date, it's just like a huge red flag. This is a one date. You know, it's. You can. You can't tell. And that's. I'm glad you had a great first date. And that's. That should be a fun. That's like, that was a lot of fun. And you can get excited about that, but it's just one date. And sometimes good daters who are really charming are really good at having great first dates, you know?

[Jessica]

Yeah, I can see that. It's just normally I don't have the best first date. So I guess that's why I was just saying it was like a really good first date.

[Nick]

And that's all. And enjoy the first date, but don't, don't crown them just because you had a good first date. And then I also, like, you know, I would know if I were you why you decide to hook up with people one way or the other. You know, you were like, well, you know, we had a good movie night and it just kind of happened, which is fine. But, like, was it to have sex? Was it to advance the relationship? I just want you to know why you're making that decision, you know, And I want you to be confident in that decision. Whatever, you know, whatever it is.

[Dylan]

I also want you to know, too, that you're not doing anything wrong. Like, I feel like, I don't know, parts of this conversation feel like you're hard on yourself and wondering if you made a mistake or something. Like, you did a lot of right things. You didn't have sex with them for the first six dates. You, like, communicated in a good way. Like, yeah, there's little areas that you could improve on based on the story and how it went. But it's like, you know what you want, you're doing it. So, like, I. I'd have faith that you're, you know, what you're doing and what you want, and it's gonna happen. So, like, I, I think, I think this is just one. One guy that wasn't ready when you were ready. But it sounds like you have a lot of experience in knowing what has hurt you in the past, what you're looking for, and you're on the right path. So it's like, I think just have confidence and retain that power a little bit more.

[Nick]

How old are you again?

[Jessica]

30.

[Nick]

What are the ages of the men you're usually dating?

[Jessica]

Typically my age or older only by like a couple years. So I think the oldest is like, like 32, 33.

[Nick]

I would be curious if, like, maybe aging up a few years could help.

[Jessica]

I just feel like it's really hard to find men. So my biggest issue has been finding men that I am attracted to while also having that in depth connection that I want.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

Because the guy I was dating before this guy, we were seeing each other for a couple months and I just couldn't get that physical piece in. Sure, he was super sweet, he treated me great. We had great chemistry, like emotionally, but just that physical piece wasn't connecting. And so I think that's another reason why this one was nice, because I was actually attracted to him and we had that like, emotional side. So I don't know, it's just really hard to find men that meet all my kind of.

[Nick]

I hear you. I mean, that's. That's the challenge that you. It's tough to have standards and be picky because it makes it harder to find the people you like. And it's better to be picky than to like everybody. But when you do have standards, it, you know, there's definitely periods you're like, fuck, man.

[Dylan]

I just, like, physical attraction changes too. Like, like, I think the more you get to know people, they become more beautiful. So it's like, I think it is okay to. No, it's true.

[Nick]

I know you're such a sweetheart, but.

[Dylan]

Like, you can, you can definitely give, like. Yeah. I don't know. You don't have to be so physically attracted at first. Once you get to know them. If they're just.

[Jessica]

I don't know, that's normally how I am. And that's why I dated the other guy as long as I did, because I was hoping that piece would fit. Because there's a lot of people that I've dated that if I just looked at them, I wouldn't have typically gone for them.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

But I am a big personality person. So most of the guys that I've dated are typically. Because, like, that attraction builds because their personality, like, wins me over. But sometimes it just doesn't open up.

[Nick]

Your pool a little bit more. You know, if you're only dating guys that are, like, two years older than you, you know, like, just.

[Jessica]

I have my app set for 44.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Dylan]

All right.

[Summer]

Just.

[Taylor]

It's just.

[Jessica]

I just don't find most of them attractive.

[Nick]

I'm not saying they're all going to be better. I'm just. I'm just. I am just saying, like, sadly, I think men are maturing slower than they used to.

[Dylan]

Yeah. No, I have faith in you. I think the. The only thing that, like, again, looking for those green flags in people, rather than sussing out the reds, and then also, like, be aware when you do look for those reds that. That. It also has that feedback pattern, too, because as soon as someone starts questioning me, I'll get defensive.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

So. So I. I think it's. Again, it's like, you want to be that confident, powerful person that. That I want to just be upfront with you, that I trust and all that stuff. If I. If you start questioning me, I'm gonna start questioning everything as well.

[Nick]

That's a great point. That was kind of the point I was trying to make earlier, where it's just, like, in terms of, like, better communication, it's just like, rather waiting to the point where you're feeling anxious and you're waiting, and, like, I get wanting to give some of the benefit of the doubt, but rather, like, just try as much as you can to challenge yourself to communicate what you're looking for in your expectations. And it's okay to check in on a somewhat regular basis with the people you're dating about, like, what you want from them and see how they respond to your expectations. Because that doesn't sound like an accusation. You waited to the point where it was like, hey, I was. Look. You know, it's like I was looking at your location, and where were you? And, like, right off, you know, it's just like, it's kind of. Yeah, it's.

[Dylan]

It's.

[Nick]

You're gonna get really defensive.

[Dylan]

Yeah. Because then he's like, wow, she's already doing this. Like, she's going to be tracking my location. And. And it's.

[Nick]

It was such an honest thing you did. Like, totally. Yeah.

[Dylan]

But. But everything has that feedback pattern.

[Jessica]

I was gonna say it wasn't like, it was an intentional thing. Yeah, it was just like, I was showing my friend the bump. Like.

[Nick]

But there's just that weird thing in dating culture where it's just like, do I tell. You know, like, it's like, yeah, you should tell them. You know, people like justify these white lies because it's like, well, I don't want to be rude or I don't want to be a dick, but just be honest, you know, give them an opportunity to see how they're gonna react. You also learn a lot more about someone when you find out how they react to the disappointment.

[Jessica]

Yeah, that was a thing that. Because communication is. Even though it sounds like I'm not a good communicator, I hide myself where I've come because I was a really bad communicator for a long time and I've been going to therapy for years to fix it.

[Nick]

We always have to work on our communication because it's so easy, it's so easy to convince ourselves. Like the more passive approach to being.

[Dylan]

Direct, it's a two way street too. Like you can, you can be an incredible communicator and you're dating people that suck at communicating.

[Jessica]

So, so that was what I was going to say was that it was that I, it's a non negotiable for me to have a partner that can communicate. And he obviously showed that he's incapable of that on our last conversation. And on the third day I kind of questioned if he was going to be a good communicator or not because he said that he leans a little bit avoidant and that he's not necessarily the most efficient communicator. So that was already in the back of my head. And then the fact that he like walked out without even trying to talk about anything.

[Nick]

Lead by example. My final note before we let you go, and I hope this was helpful, a thumbs up when you're annoyed is not the best form of communication.

[Jessica]

Well, I didn't want to, like, I know I wanted him to know that I got the message, but I didn't want to.

[Nick]

It's okay to let someone know you're disappointed. Okay, that's disappointing. I hope we, you know, I'm just saying, you know, I want you, I want you to be the person that you want to be and I want you to have the type of communication that you're striving for in a relationship. And I just want to point out little things that are a little contradictory to the energy that you're, you're hoping for to have in relationships. I, we all do these things. Like we're, you know, it's like the passive aggressive, you know, thumbs up. Like I don't want to make it a big deal, so I'm just gonna let you know, I'm annoyed. And we all do it. I'm just. I still do it, you know, but it's definitely not the most productive.

[Jessica]

Okay. You know, I will take that.

[Nick]

All right. All right, well, thanks for calling. All right, take care. See, you're. You're great at this.

[Dylan]

Yeah, it's. It's hard because it's like, I know she wants a relationship, and I feel like it's like, you want to be honest, but it's also. She's doing a great job. It's, like, hard to hear. Yeah, it's really hard to hear. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot she did right. And it's like, we have to focus on the small things, and it's like.

[Nick]

I know.

[Dylan]

It's. That's. It's tough.

[Nick]

Yeah. All right, let's get to the next caller. This episode is sponsored by better help. October 10th is World Mental Health Day. And so always a great time to celebrate Better Help. Better Help has been helping people jump into therapy like never before. Again, we talk about it all the time. We understand that therapy can be intimidating. It can be expensive and incredibly inconvenient. But also, like, it's really important to find the right therapist to make sure that you're getting the most out of therapy. I can't tell you how many times I've talked to people who have said, oh, I've tried therapy, but I just. I don't know, it just didn't really work for me, or I didn't feel. And I ask why? Like, well, you know, the therapist. I don't know. Listen, not all therapists are created equal. Also, not all therapists are meant for you, but with therapy, they're working with over 30,000 therapists to make sure that you can match with a therapist that's right for you. 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[Jessica]

It's good.

[Summer]

How are you?

[Nick]

Good. What's your name?

[Summer]

My name is Summer.

[Nick]

How old are you, Summer?

[Summer]

30.

[Nick]

And how can I help? Or how can we help?

[Summer]

I have kind of like a large scale kind of thing that I'd love to discuss and then I have smaller, like, more timely things. But, but to start, I am a. I would say a recovering serial monogamist slash former youth pastor who is exploring her, like, boy era.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Summer]

So it is quite the transition that I'm making.

[Nick]

So when you say you're a former serial monogamist, like, how many serious relationships did you have in your 20s?

[Summer]

Oh, like for my 20s, I was always in serious relationships. So. So I had a college boyfriend for a year and then I had a four year relationship and then a year and a half and then six months. So there was not a lot of time in between those either.

[Dylan]

Okay.

[Nick]

And then as when you think back and reflect on that decade, so to speak, give or take, what are your personal opinions about that? Good or bad? Like, what are, what are, what are things that you liked about it? What are things that you didn't like about it? And what are things that you learned about yourself in relationships?

[Summer]

Oh, that's a great question. So I think it's interesting looking back at it because I think that I was so, like, I think my sense of confidence really came from being in a relationship.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Summer]

Like, now that I'm kind of actually experiencing being single, I feel like it's really been a test to kind of be like, okay, can I, you know, go up to a, like, social gathering and feel like, confident without another partner with me? Yeah, just a lot of my sense of worth birth came from another individual all throughout my 20s. I can also put it out there that my dad passed away when I was 15. So it's very possible that, like, maybe there's some unresolved daddy issues there. So maybe I was just trying to, like, find that kind of love from a partner. That's very possible. I also think, like, I've been a good partner. I do like having a partner. But yeah, I think it was really important for me to finally spend time on my own and actually kind of learn about myself.

[Nick]

Okay. And then other than being a fuckboy, as you say, what are some things that you are as an independent woman right now? What are things that you are focusing on outside of dating?

[Summer]

Yeah, there's a lot. So I'm going back to school right now. I'm working towards a master's in counseling psychology.

[Nick]

Awesome.

[Summer]

I still, like, my passion is youth work, and it always will, but hobby and. Yeah. So I'm working towards that. So another way to put it is I feel like I've been living my. Like, I feel like I lived my 30s and my 20s, and now I kind of feel like I'm living my 20s and my 30s. So now that I've like, I'm out of this job, I'm like, I want to do fun things. Like this winter, I'm gonna try to work as a snowboard instructor. Like, I'm gonna try to do serving. Like, I'm. I feel like I just want to experience what like a typical, I don't know, person in their 20s experienced, because I feel like I didn't do that at all. I went right into like, like a serious job, serious relationships, and now I feel like I'm kind of not going backwards.

[Nick]

But, you know, I mean, Yeah, I. Can we. We very much relate.

[Dylan]

Yeah. I. Yeah, I was so boring in my 20s. Yeah.

[Summer]

No, that's literally how I felt. Well, and I was very curious, especially to come on this podcast because I know, Nick, like, I've heard you talk about the fact that you did have kind of like. I don't know if it was necessarily Christian, but some kind of religious.

[Nick]

Yeah, it was very Catholic upbringing. Yeah.

[Summer]

Yeah, totally. So that was in part too why I wanted to.

[Dylan]

Come on.

[Nick]

Do you want to have kids Sometimes Day.

[Summer]

Oh. So I don't necessarily want to have kids. I'm really open to building a family, but I've never had like a maternal instinct. Like, I don't really like babies that much, but I would love to have a family, so I would love to adopt one day. And especially because I am really good with adolescence, Like, I would adopt like a 10 year old. So. Yes and no. But it's not something like, I don't feel the pressure of like a maternal clock.

[Dylan]

I don't see what the issue is. Everything you said sounds awesome. Yeah.

[Summer]

Thank you.

[Dylan]

You're in a great place.

[Nick]

Yeah. So. Well, to that, to that, to that point, like, what can we help you out with? Like, what do you.

[Summer]

Yeah. So I think a large part of it is Maybe some like, religious guilt, I guess, of, like, trying to explore, like, I feel like I'm in a place now where I feel that especially too, like, sex is like a healthy and good thing, but coming from someone who. And I was like, for the longest time, like, I was saving myself for marriage. So it's. I don't know, it's interesting trying to like, explore myself as like a sexual person without feeling that kind of, like, I don't know, religious guilt. Because I also, like, I still consider myself someone who, like, I love Jesus. I have a lot of problems with like, American evangelicalism, but. And like, I consider myself quite a progressive person, but there is still, I think, some of that, like, deep rooted religious trauma.

[Nick]

I'm familiar with that. Like, so what have you been doing lately? Dating wise? Like, how's the hooking up?

[Summer]

I'm hitting the apps. I'm hitting the apps.

[Nick]

Okay. Are you getting laid? Like, how's that going?

[Dylan]

Okay.

[Nick]

And how's that been? Like, how.

[Summer]

I don't know, it's been fun. Like, I feel like I've gotten to a point now where it kind of feels like, like, like, I don't know, it's. It could kind of just be so meaningless at times. And I. So I had one person recently and I was gonna ask, I don't know if you think I'm crazy for this, but like, we kind of had this like two week kind of fling and I was really into it. And he seemed like the first person that in my whole year of kind of exploring, like, he was the first person that I was like, you know what? Maybe I don't need to have my hoe era or my boy era, whatever it is. Like, maybe I could just settle down and be with someone. And it seemed like he was also very into it and then out of nowhere kind of just like ended it.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Summer]

And he was in a phone call too, and that was kind of a bummer. But yeah, I don't know. And that one really hurt for some reason. Like, I don't know, I've been happy just like going on dates and meeting people and I like being single. But that one kind of really hurt.

[Nick]

I have strong opinions about all this. I'm curious what Dylan has to say as well. But yeah, as I sit here today, like, I love my life. I wouldn't change anything about it. Love being married to Natalie, Love my daughter. Yeah, I certainly waited a long time to find those things.

[Jessica]

Totally.

[Nick]

But I'm currently in a position where I wouldn't change anything. You Know that being said, like, I was a serum monogamist all through my 20s. After I got out of that last relationship in my early 30s, I was finally comfortable with being single. And like you, like, I felt like all my value was wrapped up in this desire to be in a relationship. Internally I felt like that was wrong, but I felt that almost crutch or that it was, it just was. Even though well intentioned, it got a little, almost toxic where I felt like I couldn't, I couldn't be independent outside of that. Right. So think that was good for me to realize that and separate that a little bit and like be comfortably single and that like first year of being single, I really prided myself on being like a, a fun third wheel or a fun fifth wheel with my groups of friends.

[Summer]

100.

[Nick]

So then that's good energy to have. But then I got real too comfortable with being single for a while. And then all of a sudden I blinked and I, you know, part of it is like going on the Bachelor and all that really y. Really threw my life upside down.

[Summer]

And oh yeah, I remember the season.

[Nick]

But you know, before Natalie and I like got together, you know, I had flings and I dated people casually for a few months here or there, but I was single for like a decade and it was, it became harder for me to really know what it meant to like fall for someone. And then all that aside too, I just, I think it's great that you had that recognition that you had maybe a little bit of an unhealthy pull of why you needed to be in a relationship. As far as the religious, like trauma and shame. My best advice for you to like, just realize that that's all it is and kind of get over it. You're not going to burn in hell. I don't think so.

[Dylan]

I don't know.

[Nick]

I'm not God. But like, you know, you seem like a good person, but like, I'm guessing if God exists and there is a heaven, there will be a lot of things that, you know, he'll probably care about outside of like you, I don't know, getting late. But anyways, it's not.

[Summer]

No, I, I completely agree. And I think like, like, I don't know because I like. So also when I graduated high school, I went straight into like Bible school, like did a four year bachelor's there and then went straight from that to working in my church job. So there was like no chance to really explore out of that. And I had been kind of wondering, like, I had been thinking about leaving the job for a long time, but I was so passionate about, like, the youth that I worked with. So it was a really hard decision to, like, whether or not I was going to leave or stay.

[Nick]

Well, one thing I want to say, though, and I mean this, I'm curious what Dylan has to say about this is like, again, despite that, I wouldn't change anything, my only caution to you is just like, listen, like, good connections are hard to find. And the. Yeah, the happiest I've ever been is still in a relationship, you know.

[Summer]

Totally.

[Nick]

And I think we're in a dating culture right now that we've gone a little too extreme with Ms. Independent. Mr. Independent. And like, yes. And I think it's okay to want to be in a relationship, and I think, you know, you want to want to find that healthy balance. Yeah. Just be mindful about, like, all jokes aside, I wouldn't put a timeline. Like, if you meet the right person, be open to pursuing it.

[Summer]

So it's interesting you say that because I feel like that's exactly what was happening with this situation with this most recent guy who kind of ended things. So I feel like, I mean, I'm not going to lie, I had a little roster going on for a little bit and it was good. But no, no one thought we. We were exclusive, whatever. So it was all healthy and good. But he was the first guy in a while that I was like, you know what? I don't need my roster. And I think that I. There could be a real connection here. And I'm not going to not explore that because I'm having fun being single. So. He was really kind of the first person that I was like, yeah, like, let's explore this. And then I got so excited about that and it felt like, like he was talking about the future and such absolutes and feeling like it was going to be really great. And then, yeah, I just kind of broke things off. So I'm worried now that I'm going to kind of go back into this, like, really closed off kind of feeling of like, ah, well, I'm never going to have feelings again and I'm just going to keep having meaningless sex. So I. I don't know.

[Nick]

Yeah, you always got to be willing to get your heart crushed.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Summer]

Yeah, totally.

[Dylan]

Everything you said, like, you've. You've grown so much from when you were. Yeah. So, like, I think it's awesome that your 20s are different than your 30s and like, you've. You've been on both sides of the spectrum and have so much experience with. On of knowing this. So now it's just finding the happy medium. So like, I think, I think you're, you're doing everything right. Like you, I think you're, you're probably just. It's like you said, it's. You have to get out of the frame. Maybe right now you are dating. Like, I don't know, maybe it went a little too far that way. And you still need to have your eyes on the prize if you want a relationship at the end of the day. Because if you put that energy into the world that you're just a fuck boy or whatever, then you're going to get that back. So, so I, Yeah, I, I think you've grown and you've shown that and like, especially the religious stuff and all that stuff. Like, I wouldn't doubt anything you've done now. It's just finding that happy medium. If your goal is to be in a relationship, which for me, I, I'm the same as Nick. Like, that's when I'm happiest. So totally. So I, I think if that's the goal, you, you take everything you've learned and, and seek that.

[Nick]

The big thing is it's like kind of striking that balance wherever you are in life if, if you are single, being able to appreciate that time. A lot of people are single. That's how I was in my 20s. Like in between relationships, I was like, just depressed, you know, I was like, I felt sorry for myself. I, I didn't allow myself to accept that maybe the relationships I were in weren't quite serving me because I was so afraid of that failure of things. Right.

[Summer]

Well, and that's. I do feel like this has been a time where I've actually, like, I've really enjoyed it. So then it's interesting because sometimes I'll have friends who will kind of make comments and be like, oh, I think you actually do really want to be in a relationship. Like, and almost like, because I'm going on dates and meeting people, but I'm like, I also just like meeting people I love. Like, I've actually gone on quite a lot of like, first dates and we don't end up having a romantic connection, but we become friends. And I've just been having a lot of fun with that.

[Nick]

Well, I think that's kind of my point. The key is to be both. Right? Like, I think there's a lot of people who are like, they can't, can't. It's like I either. It's like the People who, like, I just want to be in a relationship so bad, or the people who are just like, I don't want to date anyone right now. I'm, I'm, I'm. I'm off the market. It's like, right. You can be both. You can be like someone who's like, listen, like, I, I. Being a relationship rocks. I like, I like having that person, but I'm not desperate to be in a relationship so much that I'm willing to be in a relationship with anyone just for the sake of having that, that comfort and companionship. And so in the meantime, there are aspects of being single that are fun and enjoyable and the freedoms that go along with it. And I'm going to take advantage of those freedoms in the meantime, invest in myself and, like, you're going back to school, and the more you invest in yourself as an individual level, you don't want to give that up for just anyone. Right. And it's having that purpose outside of a relationship. And that's something I needed to find in my 30s was like, to be able to like everything and like, everything I have now. Right. Like, I love that everything I do is with a purpose for my family, but I needed to be able to figure that out on my own without be. You know, I needed to do that, you know, before. Which is why when we were talking about, with our last caller about, like, I think especially for guys, like, I had to. I had to find my thing on my own.

[Summer]

Well, it's. Yeah, it's interesting you say that like, I don't know. Even when I was kind of thinking about really moving forward with this one guy and trying to try out exclusivity, I all of a sudden had this thought, and I was like, yes, okay, I think I can really try, and there's a lot of potential here. But also, I live in a small town, kind of an hour away from the bigger city, and I'm going to move to that city soon so that I can be by the mountains and do a bunch of snowboarding and whatnot and going back to school. And there's all these things that I really envisioned going into this era of my life as a single person. I don't know. Like, I feel like that's what's meant for right now. And kind of, as you said, I'm holding it with open arms. Like, I'm kind of like, okay, I am enjoying being single right now, but I'm open to the possibility of being in a relationship for sure, but finally in a place Where I don't feel like I need one. And that's very refreshing. And I honestly think that came from just, like, really growing in confidence. Like, I can't, like, the difference between now and a few years ago. Like, like, I also think came from, like, I don't know, getting medicated for anxiety. That kind of, like, changed a lot in my world. And I feel like, yeah, just gave me a lot more confidence as a person, which is great.

[Dylan]

Everything you've said, I love. Like, I, I, I genuinely think you're, like, you're, you're the example of, when you look back at your life, you're like, I experienced life to its fullest, so I think you're on the right path to.

[Summer]

I love that.

[Dylan]

Thank you. I think as long as you move forward with open arms, like, keep, do it. Keep putting yourself first. You have all the confidence in the world. And then if that right person comes along wrong and it feels right, then go for it. Like, I really think you're, you're doing everything. Perfect for you.

[Summer]

Oh, thank you. And so I guess, I don't know, I'd love to know if you guys have thoughts too, around, like, because as I've said, like, I, there is this, like, deep religious, like, shame. And it's so interesting because now I'm this person where I'm like, my frontal lobe is fully developed now, and I, I know what I think about, like, interpretations of scripture and whatnot. I feel like, totally fine about, like, exploring my sexuality. But I know that people that I would, like, go to church with would not agree. So then it's hard because I, like, church is still something that I loved. Like, as I said, I'm still a person who believes in the teachings of what I believe. Jesus was, was someone who, like, cared about minorities, cared about the oppressed and for women and stuff like that. I'm like, that's the person that I loved. So I'm kind of like, should I feel weird about, like, still wanting to enjoying parts of church while I'm like, like, living this other life? Or maybe I just need to explore other churches. I don't know.

[Nick]

I don't practice anymore. I mean, and I'm someone who used to go to church every Sunday into my 30s.

[Summer]

Yeah.

[Nick]

That being said, I mean, my opinion is like, I do, I think. Yeah. Listen, the reason why I was generally turned off by religion is because I think humans are obnoxious people who weaponize religion to their own benefit a hundred percent.

[Summer]

And that's what I mean when I say like the American evangelicalism.

[Taylor]

I really.

[Summer]

I have a problem with that for sure.

[Nick]

You believe in God. You also know you're not him, right? Or her, whatever. So, like, you know, just, just. I don't know. Not to sound corny, but, like, just do what you think is in your heart. And at the end of the day, when you're. When your time's up, so to speak, you'll find out how you did it. But in the meantime, just, you know, be a good person and prioritize your character. Your decisions matter in your life, kind of to that point. My biggest gripe with very religious people. People, let's say this, lump them in, like, especially Chris. I'm more familiar with Christianity, and Christianity has, like, the seven deadly sins. And yeah, a lot of those people are very dogma, dogmatic about, like, things like sex or whatever, but they conveniently forget how Pride, for example, is like one of the seven deadly sins. And it's just like, humans aren't going to judge you. Well, I mean, humans will judge you, but their judgment doesn't matter.

[Dylan]

That's. That's it. Their judgment doesn't matter.

[Nick]

Find your thing.

[Summer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dylan]

You. You, like, look at yourself from probably when in. In your tw. When you were at your most religious and you said you were.

[Summer]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Dylan]

And like, you weren't that happy with where you were, it sounds like. And now you're much happier in who you are and you're less religious. That doesn't mean you're guilty of anything. It doesn't matter if people are judging you. It's what matters inside, like, you are. You're the best place you've ever been.

[Nick]

And most of that shame comes from people, because they will use that again, weaponize it, because it may say something to you or look at you a certain way. Maybe they don't approve of your lifestyle, but at the end of the day, happy people. People don't spend their energy judging others all that much. You know, certainly, like, you know, so.

[Dylan]

Maybe it is a new church. If all these people. Yeah, if these people are annoying you.

[Nick]

And judging you, maybe like the physical church of the people. But, like, if I ever go back to church, I'm gonna go back to Catholic Church. Right? And now there's a lot of things that I don't necessarily, like, subscribe to or believe in, or I'm certainly not going to change really anything about. I. I'm very comfortable with what I think about is my right or wrong. Like, I have my compass, right. And so if I Totally. If, honestly, if Nelly and I go start going back to church, it would mostly be because, like, kids and like, community and things like that.

[Summer]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I'm very comfortable with what I know is. Is right or wrong for me, and I think that's all that really matters. And like, I don't know, as I've. I gotten older and the reason why I stopped going to church, I just got a little bit less out of it. So it's more of that, you know, like, you. You'll have your own relationship. I think. You know, when we're younger and we're taught religion, it's very much what our parents teach us and this kind of.

Totally.

And. And we do things because we think we're supposed to do it this way. And we're told if you don't, something's going to happen and you get older and you realize that's. I don't know. That kind of sounds like yes, but your. Your desire to have a connection with a higher power, I don't think if. If that makes you feel good, don't run from that. And you will find your path that fits you. And, you know, no religion is going to you, you know, unless you make your own, you know, like, should just do your thing. Care about your character.

[Summer]

Yeah.

[Nick]

As long as you prioritize your character and. And how you treat yourself and treat others, I think that's what matters most.

[Summer]

Yeah. All right, makes sense.

[Nick]

Well, hopefully this was helpful.

[Summer]

Yeah, no, this was great.

[Dylan]

All right, thanks for the chat.

[Summer]

Well, yeah, thanks so much, you guys.

[Nick]

Great to meet you both.

[Summer]

Awesome.

[Nick]

You too.

[Dylan]

See it.

[Nick]

Bye. Bye. Yeah, I definitely related to the 20s and 30s.

[Dylan]

Yeah, no, she's great. She was like. I was like, what's the issue here? She seems so confident.

[Nick]

She want to, like, talk things through.

[Dylan]

You know, I would hang out with her in a Harvey.

[Nick]

I definitely related to, like. Yeah, I think you can still. Especially the. I don't know if you're religious at all, but. Yeah. As someone who used to be and not much anymore, because people can get a lot of good things out of religion if that's. If that's the thing, without being shamed, but, you know, because again, that's just human beings.

[Dylan]

And she's still involved in the church in some capacity. I didn't know what, what, like, if she just went to church or if she worked there.

[Nick]

Well, because like, a lot of people who are also part of the church.

[Dylan]

Will hold small judgments.

[Nick]

Yeah. These little, like. Yeah, people will use religion to feel better about themselves.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know.

[Dylan]

Yeah, she sounded like she just had so much growth in her life in the last 10 years and stuff.

[Nick]

I think she just needed a check in.

[Dylan]

Yeah. Make sure she's on it. She. She totally was. Yeah.

[Nick]

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How's it going?

[Taylor]

Going good. My Name's Taylor, I'm 33 and I'm dating a man who has a crazy baby mama.

[Nick]

All right, tell us about this relationship that you're in. And is it. It's his ex wife or.

[Taylor]

It is an ex wife. They were together for over 10 years. They've been divorced for two years now.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Taylor]

I'm the first person that he's seriously dated since they've been separated.

[Nick]

How long, how long were they separated for?

[Taylor]

It's been two years that they've been separated.

[Nick]

How long you guys been dating for?

[Taylor]

It's very fresh. It's only been three months.

[Nick]

How are you already feeling the impact of his ex?

[Taylor]

So they have three kids together and they are 50, 50 custody. They're very involved with each other consistently. When we started dating, he explained to me that they had a very close knit relationship because they were co parenting so closely. They were friends, they got along, they did things together, which I was totally fine with, no issues there. But I've been on speakerphone when she's called him and she calls him quite often and would call him for things outside of the kids and that was kind of weird to me.

[Nick]

Do you have like an example?

[Taylor]

An example would be she would call him and she would ask him to help her with things around the house all the time, like, can you take my trash out? He would like mow the lawn for her and she would just call him and be like, hey, what size trash bags do you use? Since we've been dating, he said that it's gotten worse. But to add on context to that, she's always had a boyfriend since they've been separated and she's very dependent on men for what he's told me. And they broke up the same week that we started dating. And so he's, she's been reaching out to him more and needing more things from him.

[Nick]

And, and what conversations have the two of you had about his ex wife?

[Taylor]

So like I would be on speakerphone, she would answer, he would answer her and she would kind of snap on him and be very abrasive and rude and you know, ask inappropriate things to me for a relationship that's just for the kids co parenting. So I brought it up to him that it kind of made me uncomfortable that he didn't have great boundaries with her. And if we were going to move forward into a serious relationship, he would need to set boundaries with her around that which leading into that he did have that conversation with her and it did not go well.

[Nick]

Were you, were you there when he had that conversation?

[Taylor]

No, no. I told him I don't want to be a part of any of that. I want you to handle that with her.

[Nick]

And so you know it didn't go out because he just told you that he me. Okay.

[Taylor]

So she basically was like, well, you can get the F out of my house then. And was threatening to take him back to court for child support. Because right now they don't do child support. It's 5050. They cut everything half and half. He hasn't 50% of the time. She hasn't 50% of the time.

[Nick]

So to your understanding, what did he say to her?

[Taylor]

To my understanding, he told her he's not the person for her to go to for her day to day needs their co parenting. That's it.

[Dylan]

Is, is your issue more with him in this or is it like you just want to avoid sticky situation or is it with. With his ex that you have the issue with?

[Taylor]

I don't have an issue with him. I think he's handling it appropriately. I trust him wholly. I don't think that there's anything going on with him and her. She just has poor boundaries and there's more to the story than just this.

[Nick]

Like, what?

[Taylor]

So he and her were actually hooking up after their divorce. I ended up finding out.

[Nick]

How'd you find out?

[Taylor]

So it just kind of came up in conversation just based on the way that she was acting. I asked him. She seemed kind of jealous and a little bit like she was trying to keep control on the situation. And I said, have y' all ever hooked up post divorce? And he was like, yeah. And I was like, okay, when was the last time y' all hooked up? And he said, january of this year. And I was like, y' all have been divorced for two years and you're still like. And in that time she had boyfriends. Like, she cheated on two of her long term, serious relationships since they divorced with him multiple times.

[Nick]

Yeah, that's a. That's a huge red flag for you.

[Taylor]

No, it is. And it upset me a lot. I was under this impression that you guys had a civil boundaried relationship. You told me that there was nothing between you and then finding that out later is very upsetting to me. I feel like I was owed that information from the get go. I would have seen it as a major red flag.

[Dylan]

There's also a green flag in there though. Like, he's super honest from what he's said so far. Like, he has those conversations on speakerphone with you.

[Nick]

He's not.

[Dylan]

He's not. Yeah. He's not trying to hide anything. When you asked him, he told you. So there's a lot of green flags in There too.

[Taylor]

That's the thing, is he is a giant walking green flag. Like, he is so transparent and so honest and that's why he's had me so involved with her in the situation is because he knows the history between them two and he wants me to be super involved. So I'm not uncomfortable with it.

[Dylan]

But it's an uncomfortable situation.

[Nick]

Well, from what I'm hearing and like, best case, maybe he's just like, he really is this a great, great guy who has a really toxic ex. But that is for better or worse, this is the part that sucks is that like he is attached to this woman for the next how many years because of the kids. My guess is like, you're probably, you're both. I mean, I'm sure he's a swell guy and maybe he's got some trauma from his divorce, which would be understandable, but he's not totally honest. I mean like he, there's a.

[Dylan]

Well, he hasn't really lied yet.

[Nick]

And well, if she, if he said to her there's bad, there's no nothing. Sure. But if he said he's, there's nothing between us.

[Dylan]

Well, at the same time it's like, what's worse, a guy who's still involved, like he is willing to help his baby mama. It's like he's, he's, he wants to do things like help her and stuff like that. That's better than kicking her to the curb and.

[Nick]

Totally.

[Dylan]

So like, maybe he is a good guy. He needs to set boundaries like you said.

[Nick]

So I guess the question is because he tried to set boundaries and then she, he got this very toxic response that included some threats.

[Taylor]

Yeah. And that's the thing is it doesn't end there. She broke up with that guy and they got back together. And he's telling me that she has this mentality that she wants us all to be this happy, like co parenting family that all hangs out together and she's invited us to go hang out with her and her boyfriend and she tries to, she wants us to all go like trick or treating together and I've told him that that does. I am not comfortable doing that. Like, I feel terrible being in this guy's face know, knowing she's cheated on him with him and he doesn't know and we're all pretending like nothing happened. I don't want to implicate myself in that.

[Nick]

That's the least of your concern. Because like, obviously I think we all agree that her intentions behind this pod, that she's trying to Create are for only her benefit.

[Taylor]

She's super manipulative. And when he tells her no and tries to set boundaries, she always comes back and threatens him with things with the kids. Like, okay, well then I'm not going to do this for you anymore. And we're, we're just going to go to court and I'm going to go for Chelsea.

[Nick]

What. What is she doing for him?

[Taylor]

Some of the things are like, so his job. He can't take the kids to school because he has to be up early. So she goes in the morning to his house and gets the kids ready, takes him to school. He goes, takes the kids to her house in the afternoons. They have agreements where it works out for both of their schedules.

[Nick]

She doesn't stop taking her kids to school.

[Taylor]

She's going to basically say, like, figure it out.

[Dylan]

It's not my problem if you set the boundaries. Or like, hey, I like you. I want to stay in this, but I, I will not talk to this girl. I don't want her in this life. Would you step up and help with the kids?

[Taylor]

For me, it's like our relationship is very fresh.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

And it's insane that I'm having all these things thrown at me with her. I don't think these conversations are even inappropriate. We've been together for like three months, so that.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

My question is, like, good guy or not, is it. Is this, is this situation worth it?

[Taylor]

I do think it is worth it. I mean, like, I've never been treated as well as he has. Like, I, like, she totally, she totally messed up letting him go. Like, honestly, like, maybe.

[Nick]

So do you think he is strong enough to deal with his ex wife?

[Taylor]

I think he is.

[Nick]

You're. You're very helpless in this situation. And to your point, it's not even really your problem or, you know, to fix. It really comes down to how is he going to handle this? And again, depending on how toxic she really is, then the question is, is her, her bark worse than her bite? A lot of people just say, you know, it wouldn't shock me if she, you know, she's probably very used to just being loud and being messy and making threats. And most of the time it's, you know, a lot of times you're just like, it's just easier not to argue with you. And I just do it, you know, but now that he met you and you seem to have a good thing going with him, and you guys hopefully are mutually excited about this relationship, if he's serious about pursuing something with you, he really is gonna have to put his foot down. You're. Are you the first serious, scariest girlfriend he's had since the divorce?

[Taylor]

Yes.

[Nick]

Right. So, like, up into this point, she's had this year, year and a half of kind of having her cake and eat it too. She's dated other men. Your boyfriend, you know, rightfully so, probably had some trauma from the relationship. I mean, we've all had sex with our exes. I don't think you really have anything to worry about in terms of, like, whether he misses her, still has feelings. I think it's just easy to have sex with your ex. There's a comfort there. But she's been able to, like, you know, do the whole, I don't want you, but a. Still want you to want me. And I, you know, I may not want to be with you, I may not want to be married to you, but I still want to control you. And I still want to feel like I have power over you. And you are a symbol of things really changing for her. And if you're right, were the fact that maybe there's some regret on her part for letting him go, you are very much a reminder of that. And you make it real. Because up until the point that you entered the equation, there maybe been a subconscious part of her that thought, well, maybe I can always get back together with him. You know, he hasn't found. He hasn't replaced it. Me and you are a replacement for that.

[Dylan]

I also, like, I know I asked, like, if you would step in with the kids, but. And it's been three months, so I'm like the. I understand. It's so fresh, but from his perspective, it's scary too, because he has this system in place that's working and he's got this crazy ex he's trying to push away, but she's coming back. It's like, where it needs to progress somehow. Like I, I guess, like by you setting boundaries. That's great, but he needs to figure out, out if she blows up, what's going to happen to me, like, what's going to happen with the kids. And that's very scary for him. He sounds like a good guy and he wants the best for his kids. So. So it's just, it's three months is just a hard spot. It seems like you guys are in such a good place, but it's a very delicate, like, delicate situation you're in.

[Nick]

If we were to kind of like workshop these scenarios out or like role play, right? In a sense, like question number one. To Dylan's point, it's just like, how crazy is it? This chick, you know, if he puts his foot down, chooses you like he should and needs to, to pursue a relationship with you, is she going to choose the nuclear option? Take him back to court, withhold kids from him, just be really messy and toxic where good guy or not, she is in a position to make his life a living hell.

[Dylan]

And he knows that.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Dylan]

Like, if. Even if it's a 1% chance, he's like, this could happen. It's scary.

[Nick]

And that's. And like, if. If she goes nuclear, that's just the hope is that, like, she's. Her bark is worse than her bite. And most people that's the case. Like, she sounds like an emotional bully, right. Who's just used to doing that. And sometimes bullies just need to be, like, told no, and he's going to have to really put his foot down. My guess is up into this point, her making threats has worked. It's been effective. He's. Whether it's that 1% you talked about, he was just more like whatever, you know, like peace, you know, he's chosen to be happy over being right with her up into this point. And now if he prioritizes your happiness, he can't prioritize hers anymore or hit as much. So then scenario two is, can he set these boundaries and just tell her no and see if she just adjusts and gets over it and. And kind of realize this is the new normal? And. And then maybe in the future there's a path for, like, are you, like, willing to have coffee with this chick to be like, hey, like, how do we get. Actually get along?

[Taylor]

Well, that's my real, like, question as of right now, I don't care to be her friend based on the way that she's behaving. And, like, I don't want to reward. I don't want to reward her toxic behavior. I don't want to be like, she's throwing a tantrum. So let me just give in and try to meet up with her and be her friend. Because, like, he's been talking to her about all this and saying, like, she's not ready to be your friend. We're early in our relationship. She knows that she looks like a crazy baby mama, and she's. He's like, I don't want her to think I'm just some crazy baby mama. But then she throws these fits every time he sets boundaries with her. And it pushes me even more so away when I hear the things that she says and the way that she.

[Dylan]

Talks to him, I think it's perfectly okay. Sorry, sorry to cut you off. I think it's perfectly okay that you set that boundary that you don't want to see talk to her. I think that is so acceptable.

[Nick]

He also doesn't have to debrief you on every crazy thing she says.

[Taylor]

I've told him I don't care to see the text message messages. I don't care to like go into details about every little thing. I don't need to know every little thing.

[Nick]

You just need to know that he's prioritizing you. That he is comfortable telling this woman no when she asks him to like mow her lawn. Because that's a test. It's all a test. She just wants to see what she can get him to do.

[Dylan]

And it's going in the right direction. Like it's not falling backwards. Like he's over at her house every day doing new chore. Like it's, it's like as long as it's moving in the right direction and progressing and he's prioritizing you, I think that's, that's the next step.

[Nick]

And I think that sometimes the hard part, I think in situations like these as him getting comfortable knowing that he doesn't have to explain why to her all the time. He can just tell her no because the why is obvious. They're divorced. You're not my wife anymore. That's the why. So anytime she's just like, can we, you do this for me? Can you do that? Like the why is I have a new girl girlfriend in my life, you know, And I think right now, being a good guy that he is and wanting to be empathetic and, and, and things like that, he probably always wants to talk her off the ledge and always wants to like, make sure she's okay. And that is coming from a good place, probably. But he just has to learn that no is sufficient enough for her. And then she's just going to have to like, deal with it.

[Dylan]

Yeah. If he's been taking care of her for 10 years, it's a hard switch to turn off to be like, no, I'm just going to let her, let her drown. So it's like he still wants to help, but how can he just be better? And it's, it's probably a work in progress.

[Nick]

And yeah, there's a good chance all this behavior from her is just that it, it works and that. And then she won't choose the nuclear option.

[Dylan]

She knows she Up.

[Nick]

Yeah. And. And because the nuclear option is going to hurt her and it's going to hurt her kids. So the question is, like, how shitty of a person is she potentially? Or is she just a little crazy going through a very tumultuous time in our life life where she maybe has some regret about her choice and now she's living in it. But yeah, it's. Listen, like, no matter what, like, maybe he's worth it. But this is definitely a messy situation for you with a lot of unpredictable variables. I'm a. I'm a risk taker. Right. I've become more of a risk taker in my life. But I'm a huge believer in being upfront and honest with yourself about the risks you're taking. You know, and that's okay. You know, what is the fallout of these risks? You know, don't take the risk and pretend that you're not taking a risk and acting like everything happens for a reason. Reason. And this is meant to work out, you know, Like, I think you have to acknowledge that this is. This has some messiness to it and there are variables at play outside of your control. And there is a world where six or 12 months from now things get real messy that, that ultimately could affect this relationship and you have no control over it. And I think that's just important for you to acknowledge. I'm not trying to convince you to like, leave it, but I think it's just something to just check in with yourself.

[Dylan]

Yeah, I just, it's like a picture in my head. I'm like envisioning him just balancing this shitty situation he got himself into. And it's like if he pushes too far in one direction, it's just going to fall apart. So I think it's like giving him a little grace that it's not going to fix itself and just become perfect right away. It's got to be a progress and like, otherwise the house of cards will collapse.

[Taylor]

So, yeah, I don't want to make the situation worse on him. Like, if I'm going to benefit the situation by just like meeting her. Her and being fake nice. Because I don't know if like me constantly avoiding her is making the situation worse and that tension is building because, like just the other day they had this conversation where he's setting boundaries with her and then she sends me a friend request on social media.

[Dylan]

I would like. My. My two cents is to not get involved. I think the further she is removed from the situation, the better because then she. As soon as you enter the Equation, she's going to start manipulating dating you. And it sounds like she knows how to manipulate. I think it's just, how can you we slowly remove her from this conversation?

[Nick]

You have to be very good about knowing the why behind the choices you're making in the situation because it'd be very easy for you to be petty and to get frustrated at her and to react out of frustration. Right. So I think step one is to like, make sure you're aligned with your partner and be like, hey, listen, I really like where this is going. I know this is a tough situation. You have my support. How can I support you in this difficult situation? I just want to make sure we're on the same page. Like when it comes to dealing with your ex wife, like, all I want to do is like not escalate a situation. So like help me help you and like you know her better than I do. Like that's all I want to do. Right. And then like just she's going to give you a lot of opportunities to want to react out of spite and to not do things, you know, and to just stoop to her level and get it sucked in the drama. And you're going to, you're going to have to challenge yourself to just be the bigger person, you know what I'm saying? So it's this like, turn the other cheek and things like that. And just like, yeah, killer with kindness, be nice. She's going to want to pull you into the drama and you're going to have to, on a regular basis, be like, I want to be right. Well, I want to be happy. Like, what's the least dramatic response to this situation? And what's the response that's just best for me and him and, and not she deserved, you know, like, you know, because she's going to, it's going to be so easy.

[Dylan]

Yeah. Because in that balancing act we talked about, the worst case scenario, the best case scenario probably for your boyfriend is like, yeah, everyone's all loves each, like everyone's happy. Like we still, like the kids are around, you guys are friends. Like that is a possibility.

[Nick]

100. You know what, you know she wants to hang out with you because you know what she's gonna do? I guarantee it. She's gonna like casually talk about them when they were dating together. She'd be like, you remember that time where we were ba ba ba. And we're like, oh my God, that.

[Dylan]

Was so, you know, like, yeah, avoid.

[Nick]

It's a guarantee it's going to happen.

[Dylan]

I think again that's three months in. Like there's no point in talking to her right now. It sounds like you and your boyfriend are in a great place together and he's got to work through some, some stuff. So I wouldn't, I, like, I wouldn't rule it out forever. I wouldn't say like, I'm never going to talk to this girl. But like for right now, I don't think it's healthy.

[Taylor]

Yeah, I feel like she is going through a mental crisis right now.

[Nick]

Yeah, you're the crisis, you know, like.

[Taylor]

Yeah, yeah, I guess because he said that pre divorce she never drank, like she never acted this way. And post divorce, all this behavior is kind of new and it's. Since I've came around, it's obviously she.

[Nick]

Had a bit of a midlife crisis. And then again, you, you were. Because she's the, She's. She asked for the divorce, I'm assuming.

[Taylor]

I think so because he, he's the type to like work it out. He's a all in kind of guy. When he's in, he's in.

[Nick]

And well, if, if she asks for divorce, divorce, things never really got real until you showed up.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, because up until that point he was still there for her. You know, she had her cake too. She could, she was still having sex with them, she was dating other men and, and that's all different now. So.

[Dylan]

Yeah, I, and I think again, if she's in that mental clarity, like you don't want that in your life. Like this is, this should be fun for you to be with your boyfriend. And bringing in that negative energy into your life isn't something that you are signing up for right now.

[Nick]

He's got to lead the charge and quarterback the situation with his ex wife and you have to support him. I think things get real messy and toxic when I think a lot of people in your position would tell him how he's supposed to handle his ex wife and, and then tell him how. What he's supposed to do to make you. Like, the more you can make him feel supported and again, just keep your way from the drama, the better. Yeah, I really, it's strongly believe that. Don't fall into the trap of making him feel like he's picking you. I mean that should. Obviously you want to feel that way, but he needs to control this situation. He needs to speak to her, set the boundaries, enforce the boundaries and then make you feel comfortable that he's doing that in a way that you both have communicated. Makes you feel safe and secure in this relationship.

[Taylor]

Yeah. I think he's just been going back and forth with her too much rather than just being like, this is how it is, and that's it. She's very persistent, distant. When she wants something, she just doesn't stop.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

She's brought the same conversation up multiple times.

[Nick]

Yeah. He's gonna have to get good at ignoring her a little bit, and that's going to be a little uncomfortable for him because it's going to be scary because she's making threats right now. So there is.

[Dylan]

It's just not something that. That's going to change overnight. But as long as it's progressing in the right direction, like, as long as he keeps those boundaries and is slowly backing away, I think that's a good sign. Sign is he can't jump all out at once right now because it's just too scary.

[Taylor]

Yeah. I feel like it can hold off all of this, me being involved with her until, like, we're maybe talking about, like, moving in together, where I'm going to be around her kids all the time. I don't see why this even needs to be really hashed out right now.

[Dylan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Honestly, just make sure you two are on the same page.

[Taylor]

Yeah, for sure.

[Dylan]

And it's like, everything you said, it's a. It's a tough situation. But he sounds like you guys have a great thing going. Like, it really does. Like, it sounds like you. You see a lot of amazing qualities in him, and he's feeling love for the first time probably in a long time. So it sounds like it's worth pursuing.

[Taylor]

No. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I wasn't expecting all of this, honestly, but, yeah. I mean, I've probably dealt with worse situations, so I'm not. I'm not that worried about it. I think we'll be okay.

[Nick]

Well, hopefully this was helpful.

[Taylor]

Yes, it was. Thank you so much.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Dylan]

Thank you.

[Nick]

All right, well, thanks for the call. Keep us posted. We'd love to know what happens in the future with this.

[Taylor]

I'll try my best.

[Nick]

All right, take care.

[Jessica]

All right.

[Nick]

Oh, it's a lot of fun, man.

[Dylan]

Hope you enjoyed yourself. Cool. That was like the beginning of a Lifetime movie. I hope it doesn't turn into a Lifetime movie. Yeah. In a bad way.

[Nick]

It's. Divorce is messy, man. It's tough sometimes. You know, life happens, and every relationship is hard, but especially now when we have River. Like, I'm very grateful right now. I'm in a relationship where we fight hard for our relationship because, like, when you. Especially when kids are involved. It's sad and so sad when you see and like sometimes, you know, it's people are better off not together. But it's tough when kids are involved and you get these messy relationships.

[Dylan]

It's all just added layers to everything.

[Nick]

Yeah. Well, thanks for coming, man. I really appreciate you. That was good luck on the rest of the way of Dancing with the Stars. I'm expecting you in the finals.

[Dylan]

I, I hope this, this cast is so talented. It's insane.

[Nick]

It's like, just remember it's not all about the talent.

[Dylan]

Yeah, no. For me, I'm just remember to smile, dude. I know. You already told me. For me, I just, I just want to keep improving. That's it. Don't forget to have fun having fun improving. Just like it's so damn fun. It is one of the funnest things.

[Nick]

It's been fun to watch you, man. You're crushing it and yeah, man, I appreciate you.

[Dylan]

No, I'm stoked. We got to catch up.

[Nick]

I appreciate you guys listening too. Don't forget to send your questions at asknick@thevile files.com if you want to call in and have a question for us. Dylan is going to be the first of we'll have an occasional special guest for Asnick because I know you guys enjoyed having that from time to time. But thanks for listening. We will see you back tomorrow. And Doug Limu and I always tell you to customize your car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. But now we want you to feel it. Cue the emu music. Limu. Save yourself money today. You sure easter your wealth.

[Jessica]

Customize and save.

[Nick]

We say that may have been too much feeling. Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's $15 a month. Two, seriously is $15 a month. Three, no big contracts. Four, I use it. Five, my mom uses it. Are you, are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront.

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