A (2:33)

We did.

B (2:34)

I've really moved up in the world.

E (2:35)

We had a small suit. There's just so many of you girls.

B (2:38)

No, there was like eight of us. All of you? Yeah. I don't blame you. I thought it was funny.

C (2:42)

Who were you sitting next to?

B (2:43)

Layla.

A (2:43)

Layla.

B (2:44)

Because we were, I think, last minute additions and so it was just like make it work, you know, But I thought it was funny.

C (2:49)

Well, yeah, that was, I think it was before the first season even dropped.

B (2:53)

Yes. And also I wasn't in the first season that much, so I was just happy to be a part of anything.

C (2:57)

That's crazy. Yes, of course. Well, now all of you are big stars.

B (3:01)

Oh, it's crazy.

C (3:02)

You guys are really. I mean, you guys know I've always obviously been a fan of all you women from the beginning. And like you said, obviously season one, you know, you sprinkled yourself in there. But like season three is very much full on, Jesse.

B (3:16)

Yeah, I wasn't planning that at all. But it happened.

D (3:19)

Obviously.

C (3:19)

We'll get into a lot of what happened on season three and specifically you and Jordan. And Jordan will be joining us, joining me later and then us later. I just wanna start by talking about just keeping things light, just overall experience. I mean, your life really has changed, I feel like for the better. But when it comes to this show, and I've said this about you women before, I just don't think people fully appreciate what it takes and the sacrifice all you ladies make for our entertainment. We are all big fans and truly you women have been so open about talking about some very real life situations that many people listening to the show have been through and it's obviously very difficult to do. So I guess I just want to start by how are you feeling overall about, you know, being a mainstay as part of the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and how has it impacted your life?

B (4:17)

Well, first of all, I want to say thanks to you guys because I feel like, especially you, like you were such a big advocate for us season one that I feel like a lot of people were interested in the show because of that. So I just want to say thanks to you guys and you've always been so great for me. I don't want to cry yet. Gosh. But I just, I'M so glad I'm here because you guys make me feel so comfortable. And I just, like, thank you for believing in me and, like, giving me a safe place to talk, because it's a hard subject, obviously. So I just wanted to start off saying thank you. But, yeah, I think the craziest thing about our show is that we have filmed three. Or you guys have now seen three seasons in a year, basically in 14 months.

A (4:53)

Yeah, it's a lot.

B (4:54)

And that's a lot. Like, we film two seasons a year, and it's just a constant, you know, battle of filming, press, real life, kids, business. Like, it never ends. I love it. I feel like I was made for it. I'm an entrepreneur, so I'm used to busy. But it is crazy that we were all influencers on a small scale and people had opinions about our lives. We would get comments. But now it's like, a much larger scale. So now that we're making mistakes publicly and, you know, doing all these things in the public eye, it's definitely different. Um, I don't think we expected our show to pop off this quickly. I think usually with reality tv, it takes a few seasons to find your legs and go and get there. But our season one was like, an immediate overnight success, so that has been surreal. But we're really just filming our real lives in Utah. So for me, it's like, you forget that it's so big when you're just, like, with your kids in Utah and with your best friends. Like, we're filming with our best friends, sometimes enemies. But, you know, you just forget. Cause you're doing your normal life. And then we do stuff like this, and it's like, oh, whoa. Like, people know who we are. So it's been wild.

E (5:55)

It's so funny. I feel the same way. Like, if we're out in public or I get a DM of someone being like, oh, my God. I also put up my Christmas lights and I'm like, how did you know that?

A (6:02)

I'm like, oh, I talked about it on the podcast.

E (6:04)

Like, I forget that people listen to this show. I forget that, you know, and you, like, forget that you film the show and then it goes out there and millions and millions of people see it.

B (6:13)

Yes. And follow it. It's scary. Like, it's amazing. And we wouldn't be anywhere without our supporters. You guys know that too. But, like, people know where I live now. In season two, my house was, like, shown a lot the front of it. And I have people driving by, taking photos all the time now, so I think I need to move, because that's the only part that I'm like, ooh. But no, it's been amazing. Like, I am so grateful for the opportunities we've gotten. My business has been doing so well because of the show, and I'm busier than ever. My life has changed a lot, but I'm so grateful.

C (6:42)

How did you become involved with this group of women? It's my understanding that there are a lot of mom talkers in Utah.

B (6:48)

Yes.

C (6:48)

And there's, I think it sounds like also a lot of women who would love to be in all of your women's shoes. But, like, you know, this all started with, you know, Taylor, Frankie, Paul, and the whole, like, swinger scandal. And I think that's what got people really interested online and on TikTok. But where did you fit in with this group? And, you know, how did it all start for you?

B (7:07)

So I had done Whitney's hair for a couple years. Whitney's, like, notorious for changing her hair color. So in that first episode of season one, she has, like, blonde, dark, blonde, red. I did all those. So I just knew Whitney through doing her hair, and she would invite me to a few things. And I knew the other girls because of that group. But I had known Macy through social media. Same with Demi. And one day I got a message from Macy, and she was like, hey, I don't know if you've heard, but we've filmed a pilot for a show, and they're looking to bring more people on. Would you be interested? And I always say, like, I'll say yes to anything just to see how it goes. So I was like, sure. And I did my first interview over zoom, and I had, like, I was getting my hair done, and they texted me, and they were like, can you meet right now? So I did it with half a head of foils in. And they were like, we actually love it. Cause it's like real life. And I feel like from day one, I was just myself. And that translates on camera. And I think that's something that's special about our cast is I think, for the most part, you can tell that all of us are just being ourselves. None of us are performing for the camera. Maybe some of us, but, like, most of us, like, it's just real raw, authentic. And I think when you watch shows, you can tell who's putting on a performance. And a lot of the Housewives, I feel like I can just pinpoint when I'm like, oh, you know, you've seen the Housewives before, and you're doing that. But I feel like with our show, we were just thrown into it new, and we were just like, in this messy friend group and it worked. But, yeah, I just knew Macy and Demi and Whitney and I got added in.

C (8:25)

We live in a time where reality TV is really mainstream, and it's really hard to find shows where you can cast people who are willing to be authentic. So what do you think it is about you? Like you said, maybe there's moments where, you know, we might think someone's performing or not, but as a collective, everyone really shows up and really, like, is. All right, well, I'm going to speak freely and honestly about this.

B (8:48)

I think two things. I think the first thing is when you're an influencer, you're already used to putting your life out there and just kind of like being vulnerable with your audience or whatever it may be. So there was a level of that. But I really credit Taylor to showing us the way. Like season one, she obviously laid it all out on the table with her swinging, her arrest, her divorce, her cheating, and it gave all of us kind of room to do the same as things happen to us. So when I went through my thing this season, I really leaned on Taylor as an example of, like, you own your shit. You just are honest, and it's the only way to do it. Because if you hide and you're not genuine, people see that and they read it through the screen. But if you just own your shit, like, what can they do? They can say whatever they want, but you're being honest.

A (9:30)

Is there also a little bit of.

E (9:31)

Like, you can see the light at the end of the tunnel because you've watched your girls kind of go through this stuff and now they're on the.

A (9:38)

Other side of it.

B (9:39)

Yeah, Taylor was a huge example to me because it was like, oh, you can go through all this and still come out happy and on top, you know? Also, I think it helps that we're all so comfortable together. Like, you see scenes with me, Macy, Mikayla, they were my rocks this season, and I couldn't not be myself in front of them. I couldn't not share my vulnerability with them because they're my best friends. So it helps that you're actually close with your cast members. I think there's some shows when you can tell, like, you guys don't hang out outside the show. We are together 24 7, whether we're filming or not. And it's just so easy to be vulnerable in front of your friends. So I think that helps.

C (10:11)

Obviously, we're big fans of Lana Del Rey, and you guys got to meet her.

B (10:15)

Crazy.

C (10:16)

I'd love to hear more about that. But what are some other, like, surreal.

B (10:19)

She was in the show. I forgot. Yeah.

C (10:21)

What are some other surreal moments that you, as an individual or as the collective group, have got to experience? That's been kind of the highlight of this experience, I think.

B (10:30)

The number one thing. I always think of Ashton Kutcher. Layla and I went to a party for Disney last year, and we met him, and I was, like, so scared, but I was like. He was, like my icon growing up, so I was like, I have to go say hi. So I go up to him and I'm like, you probably don't know who we are, but I just wanted to introduce myself. And he was like, oh, my gosh. The Mormon Show. Me and my wife love it. And he's telling his publicist. He's like, this girl got arrested. She's a swinger. He knew everything. And I was like, whoa. And he's like, can we do, like, a praying hands photo or, like, a shushing photo for my wife? So that was on his phone that we took that. And I was like, whoa. And then he comes over 10 minutes later, and he's like, Will you FaceTime Mila? And we were like, oh, no big deal. Yeah. And she was like, I love you guys. And we talked to her. It was so crazy, because I've met people that probably have heard of us but aren't fans. But for him and his wife to be fans, I was like, whoa. And then Scott Disick and Chloe Kardashian, we met them at a Hulu event. And Scott's like, I just watched it this week. And Khloe was like, you guys are doing great. And we sat and chatted with them. And that was also surreal.

C (11:28)

Has there any been moments that have made this experience more difficult? I mean, obviously, we'll get into the relationship of it all, but just, you know, sometimes it can be invasive. You mentioned people know where you live, what have been some difficult aspects of becoming the stars that you are.

B (11:45)

Two things I always see on social media that bug me are, number one, if not all of us are together in a TikTok, it's like, why are you leading Taylor out? Where's your queen? Where's your leader? And I'm like, taylor's busy. We're all busy. Like, getting all nine of us in a room is hard, even when we're filming. Like, you guys see there's not many scenes of all nine of us. So I hate that, like, if it's just me and Macy and Michaela or me, Layla and Miranda or whatever, they automatically think we're like shunning the other girls. And it's like, no, we're just busy. So I hate the assumptions of our friend group just because our friends pitting.

E (12:14)

Everyone against each other kind of.

B (12:15)

Yeah, the audience does it more than we even do. I feel like also the. The feedback I've seen a lot, which is mind blowing to me, is that you guys need to release these sooner. Like, you guys are so behind. And I'm like, we film. You guys see two seasons a year. That's unheard of for reality tv. Most reality shows are once a year. So we're actually so quick. And just because we're online, people are like, we need it quicker. We need it quicker. So I don't think they see the behind the scenes of us like filming 247 being burnt out, exhausting. This is our real lives we're showing. And then it's like the demand of like, more, more, more that that stuff blows my mind. Cause I'm like, we're doing the best we can.

E (12:51)

We're already doing so much.

B (12:52)

But at the same time, all the negative feedback goes hand in hand with the positive. And we wouldn't have a show without the fans. So it's hard to complain when like, they're also the reason we're here. So those are just the things that sometimes get me. But it's not that big of a deal.

C (13:05)

How did you and Jordan, like, like when this all. You know, you got the call.

B (13:09)

Yeah.

C (13:10)

From. Was it Macy you said?

B (13:12)

Yeah.

C (13:12)

So as a couple, like, did you guys have conversations about like, whether Jordan wanted to be involved or at that point was. Was dad talk not even really, like, this is your thing. I'm not going to be a part of it. How did you guys figure that out as a couple before you guys, like brought in the cameras inside your house?

B (13:29)

So dad talk didn't really come around till season two. Season one, the dads kind of, besides Dakota were like in the background and they really got together season two, so that wasn't a thing. But I will say Jordan is like, I was already an influencer. Like I was putting my life out there on social media. We would do family vlogs. So he was just kind of like, oh, it's like another step of that. He didn't really care. Also, we've always joked my whole life that I need A reality show. Like, my family is kind of crazy. I have a family business and my life is pretty dramatic. Like I say. I hate to say it follows me, but it does. I probably chase it half the time, but, like, I just seem to have things happen to me. And so I like, when this happened, I was like, oh, of course. Like, I've always wanted to be on tv. It sounds fun. So we really just jumped in. And also we didn't know what we were getting into. Like, we didn't know the name of the show yet. We didn't know what the structure was. We were just like, cool, sounds fun. So it just kind of happened.

E (14:21)

Was it kind of like, everything's on the table if we're gonna do this? Like, let's actually do this?

B (14:26)

Well, not really, because season one, we kind of knew it was about Taylor, you know, so we just kind of went in thinking like, oh, we'll just see what they need from us. And I at the time didn't have much to hide, so I didn't really care. And then as time goes on, they get more into each person's lives and their stories and then that's when you're like, oh, okay, if we're gonna do this, let's just go all in. Because there's no point in doing it if not. That's true. Yeah, that's true, I guess.

E (14:50)

Let's go. How did you and Jordan meet?

B (14:52)

We were both married before and he was in a long term relationship after his first marriage. So he had had an on and off girlfriend for like three to four years. I was married, I was married five years. And around the time I left my husband, he was breaking up with that girlfriend of four years. He had already been divorced since he was like 18. He got married really, really young. So basically he had friends of friends of mine. And Jordan loves to cook and host dinner parties and be really social. So he would host these dinner parties and one of my friends got invited and they invited me. So I went over and we just started talking and I got invited to a few of them and my husband actually came with me to a couple of them. And that was when we were like, we were on the rocks for years, but it was like towards the end and one of the dinner parties right after I separated, I showed up alone and Jordan was like, oh, where's your husband? And I was like, oh, he, you know, we separated, we're getting divorced. And he's like, oh, me and my girlfriend just broke up last week. So we just sat and Talked for hours about our breakups, and we just kind of bonded over that. And then, like, a week or two later, he asked me out, and I said yes. And so I was going through a divorce while dating Jordan, which was not recommended. Like, I definitely moved on too quickly. But at the time, I feel like I was probably just looking for a distraction and something to help heal the pain of the divorce. And he had been divorced, and he understood, so it was, like, comforting. Yeah.

E (16:09)

Created like a safe space kind of for you two to go through that.

B (16:12)

Yeah.

C (16:12)

Obviously, like, divorce is such a traumatic part in someone's life, and I don't know what it's like, obviously, to have been divorced, but I've had very serious relationships that didn't work out, engagements that didn't work out. And there was a point in this season where obviously it was very emotional. You were really, like, questioning your and Jordan's relationship, and you said something like, I just don't want to go through this again.

B (16:37)

Yeah.

C (16:37)

And I think that's very relatable for a lot of people, both men and women. I certainly related to that feeling, you know, how did you heal from that first divorce? It sounds like Jordan was maybe a big part of that as well. But, like, what were some of your greatest fears coming out of that relationship, and what did you feel like you learned from it?

B (16:55)

Yeah, divorce is really hard. And that was my biggest fear, is getting divorced again. It's like, oh, my gosh, could I do three marriages potentially? Like, that sounds scary. And also, I have kids now, so it's so different because I'd be putting two kids through that. So my first divorce was funny because I did move on so quickly. I actually feel, looking back, I used it as a band aid, and I didn't really properly heal. My healing kind of hit me halfway through my marriage with Jordan, and actually going through this with Jordan really opened up my first marriage wounds. Like, I didn't realize I had buried so much of it. So it's been interesting because as I've been processing the trauma with Jordan and me, I've now been processing my first relationship ending as well. And it's been kind of crazy because it's brought up so many things I didn't know I hadn't dealt with. So divorce is crazy because it's not just like, oh, it's hard at the beginning, and you get over it. It's something that stays with you your whole life. Like, I'll still drive by his parents house because they live near my parents. And that Will, like, send me with a wave of emotion, and little things will remind me, because he was in my life for I was with him for six years. Like, that's not just something. He was my family. His family was my family. So it's really hard to sever the ties, not just with your husband, but with that family and then jump into a new family, you know? And Jordan's family is so great. I'm so grateful for them because they made the transition so easy. But, yeah, I feel like I'm actually still dealing with the first marriage ending.

E (18:15)

And what were some of the, like, wounds that you felt like you uncovered?

B (18:19)

I feel like my first marriage was actually pretty similar to what me and Jordan have gone through as far as, like, emotional abuse. I feel like I didn't heal from my first marriage that was emotionally abusive, and I jumped into a second one that has repeated the same patterns. And I think that's a big reason why I'm where I'm at, is because I didn't heal. So I allowed the same thing to happen to me twice. And that's my own fault that I've attracted that because of my broken pieces. But, yeah, like, my first marriage, like, he was, like, a good Mormon boy, so I thought I was marrying, like, the safe choice. He had a good family. They were in the church and in Utah. That's, like, a great thing. And he had been a returned missionary, and he was great for the first couple years, and then he got into some drugs and stopped working, and things just kind of went downhill. And he had a lot of anger issues. So that just wasn't great. It wasn't a great dynamic. But I came out of that marriage broken because of that, and I carried a lot of wounds into the marriage I have now. I think that now history has repeated itself. So now I'm dealing with recovering from both, honestly.

E (19:20)

I mean, I hate that you feel like it's your fault. Like, it's not your fault how someone else speaks to you. Yeah, you know, like, that's totally on them, but I guess. How did you find that strength to leave that relationship?

B (19:33)

So we had been on the rocks the last two years of our marriage, and it was right after our fifth wedding anniversary that I left. And I just realized, because we had been talking loosely about having kids, and I just realized, I was like, if it stays this way, my kids are gonna be involved in this, and then I won't be getting divorced as a single person. I'll be getting divorced with a toddler, maybe, or a baby. And that just put it into perspective for me. And I also was like, I'm wasting my life. Like, I have this successful business at this point. I'm going places. And he would smoke weed and play video games all day. Like, it just didn't look like our futures were aligning. And not that that's wrong. If he wants that life, that's great. But it wasn't where mine was going. And I really just had to think about what do I want for my future? And that kind of helped me get out of it. But I think in emotionally abusive relationships, you have to get to a point where the glass shatters and you just make a decision. Like when I left Jordan in season three, it got to that point where I had tried for so long and I just had a glass shattering moment where I was like, I can't do this. As hard as it might be, I'm done. So that happened with my first one and I followed through with it. So I think it was for the best, but it was hard.

E (20:36)

Yeah.

C (20:36)

Did you and your first husband like try to work through stuff at times and it just didn't get any better.

B (20:41)

I would say the last two years of our marriage, like I had left for days at a time and like threatened to leave and then we would get back together. But when you're Mormon, you're married in the temple, so you're sealed for all time and eternity. And divorce is a big deal. Like, I'm actually still sealed to my ex in the temple. They. The church won't cancel it. Wow. So technically I would be with him for all time and eternity if I died, which is insane. It's a huge process to like cancel that. I don't really believe in it. So like, I'm not worried. But technically I'm still married to him in the church, so it. Divorce is like a no. No. So it was just the optics of like, what will the world think? What will our family and friends think? And the church will be disappointed. And I was still kind of in it at the time because his family was. And so we tried a lot because of that. But I would say the last two years it was me trying and trying to. There was a point when my family wouldn't even speak to my ex, like for I think four months. He wasn't even allowed at my parents house. So there were rough times, but I was just trying. And then it got to a point where I was like, I can't. But I did put a lot of effort in.

C (21:39)

You're not religious now, right?

B (21:40)

No.

C (21:41)

Were you. Were you ever really religious? Was that a big part of your first marriage?

B (21:44)

So I grew up. I like to call myself a mutt because my dad's not Mormon and my mom is. So I grew up, like half in the church, half out of the church. And because of that, I would go to church on Sundays. But we wouldn't, like, be super strict because my dad was like, not. He went on a mission, but he left the church when I was like 2, so he was never about it. So I was religious because my mom was. And then as I grew up, I kind of was like, I don't know. And then my ex husband was super religious, so I got back into it for him. We got married in the temple. We went to church every Sunday. His family was super religious. So in that marriage, I was. But I. I didn't like, fully buy into it. I was mainly doing it for him. And then when we got divorced, I was like, okay, I'm done.

E (22:23)

And then is or was Jordan.

B (22:26)

Yeah. So Jordan's family is Mormon, and he never went on a mission because he got his girlfriend pregnant at 18, so he couldn't. But, yeah, he grew up Mormon, but he left the church like around 18, 19 years old.

E (22:37)

So Jordan has children outside of one?

B (22:41)

Yeah, a boy, girl, a daughter named Peyton. She's 13. Wow. Yeah.

E (22:44)

Not know that.

B (22:45)

Yeah. It's crazy, huh? That is crazy. Yeah, she's a great babysitter. It's so great.

E (22:49)

No, truly, anytime I'm like, y' all take it.

B (22:53)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She loves our kids. It's so sweet.

C (22:55)

As someone who grew up very Catholic in a really religious family, I mean, I had a really positive experience with it, but I've certainly had a front row seat to see how religion can be weaponized and used as a way to manipulate people in relationships and things like that. So just in general, how do you feel like you've struggled or how has the Mormon religion or the people you've been in relationships with who were religious, did they use that as a way to try to dim your light or shame you or manipulate you in some ways?

B (23:28)

Yeah. My ex in laws, I loved them. They were my family, but they were super religious. And I actually feel like I have a lot of religious trauma from them. I think it's a big reason I left the church, for example. So when you're Mormon, you get married in the temple, you can't have sex before you get married, and if you do, you can't get married in the temple. And you have to, like, wait a year to get sealed in the temple, and you have to go through the repentance process. And it's crazy because if you get married civilly is what they call it, you still have to repent for a year with your bishop to be able to get married in the temple. So you're repenting for having sex while being married and having sex. So crazy. So me and my ex husband had had sex before we got married, and we had to tell his parents, like, we can't get married in the temple. So when we told them, they freaked out, Brought the scriptures out, like, gave us a whole talk. And I remember his mom saying, like, well, at your reception, you're gonna have to answer to why you didn't get married in the temple, and it's gonna be a really bad day for you. And I was like, oh. And then we finally did get sealed in the temple a year later. And I remember his dad gave a speech at the dinner and was like, this dark cloud has been hanging over our family, and it's finally lifted. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, so those little comments happened throughout my entire marriage, and I always felt like I wasn't good enough for my ex because my family wasn't super religious and I wasn't. So I was trying to fit into this mold. And I felt like I tried so hard to fit in with them. And it really broke me because there were comments like, that, how did your.

C (24:46)

Family deal with that? Because I'm. I'm just trying to imagine. I mean, you know, River's only not even two yet, but it would be very tough as a father to hear my daughter's new family at her most special day, or what's supposed to be.

B (25:03)

Well, also, my dad shame her. My dad's not religious. So for me, my wedding was great because he actually got to walk me down the aisle. He couldn't go to the temple. So if I got married in the temple, my dad wouldn't have been there. So for me, it was like, no, this is actually incredible. And my dad's not religious at all. So my ex's family, like, he tried to avoid as much as he could. Like, he would be nice to them, but, like, he did not agree with how they talked and, like, did things. So he definitely didn't love that. I think my mom felt the same way where she was just like. And then issues with my ex started arising, and they really distanced themselves. But, yeah, they told me how they felt. They were like, that is not okay.

E (25:38)

Like, has it ever bothered Jordan that you're still eternally tied to your ex or not really.

B (25:43)

Um, he knows I've tried to get it broken. I actually reached out to my bishop, because that's how you have to do it. And I told them I wanted to get it broken, and they were like.

A (25:52)

Do you, like, text your bishop or do you, like. I had to email him.

E (25:55)

Email me.

B (25:55)

I had to figure out where my records were. And it was like, the last ward I had been to with my ex. I emailed him, and they were like, okay, let's get it going. Let's do it, and then we'll get you and your new husband sealed. And that was their, like, agenda. And when I said, no, I just want to break this. I don't want to reseal nothing. They ghosted me. So Jordan knows I've tried, so he's like. And also, he's not a member anymore, so he doesn't. Unless you believe in the church. It's like, if we still believed, we'd probably be, like, more proactive. But, yeah, he's fine.

E (26:21)

And is that something that other Mormons judge you for? Still being tied to someone you're no longer?

B (26:28)

Maybe. But I also think that the way the church does it is weird because a man can be sealed to more than one woman. So my ex is remarried, and he could get married to her in the temple. Yeah. And he can have 15 wives, you know, so it's such a double standard. But if I wanted to get sealed to Jordan, I would have to break this ceiling first, which they won't allow me to. It's crazy.

C (26:48)

How have you ladies been received in the community with the Mormon religion? Be being front and center and often criticized in a lot of ways. I imagine it's been somewhat controversial in your community.

B (27:00)

I would say when the first trailer and name was announced, that was the hardest of it, because it was just secret lives of Mormon wives. And Mormons didn't know what the show was gonna be, so they freaked out. I actually have a hair school, and I had to go into my hair school because all my students are pretty much Mormon, and they were freaking out, and I had to go sit them down and tell them what it was going to be about and not to worry. And I was really afraid I was going to lose students, and I started panicking. Like, what the hell did I just do? Did I just ruin my business? I've seen a lot of tiktoks back in the day of, like, my culture's not a Costume. Don't make fun of our religion. But what they don't get is that we are the culture. We all grew up Mormon. We all. I got married in the temple. I did it for 26 years. Like, I. I'm not making fun of you. I lived it, and I'm sharing my experience. So that's what I think people realized watching the show is we're just sharing our experience, saying yours is wrong. But also, we're sharing. We're also showing different levels of it. Like, Jen was super religious. I wasn't at all. And the other girls fall somewhere in between. And every religion, even, you know, Catholicism, has different levels of, like, being active, I assume. So I feel like it was just normal to showcase our experience. And I think also after watching the show a few seasons, the church isn't as prominent as it was in the first episode. Right. Like, it kind of evolves to be more about our lives. And yes, the Mormon church is like a background character because we live in Utah county and Mormonism is a part of where we live, but it doesn't really focus on it as much as I think people thought it would. And now Mormons are our biggest fans. Like, everyone in Utah loves us. And so it's really great, actually. But I think it was hard in the beginning.

E (28:28)

You get recognized a lot.

B (28:30)

Yeah.

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E (32:44)

Getting into you and Jordan's relationship a little bit. What made you fall in love with Jordan?

B (32:48)

The biggest thing that attracted me to him is that he has a big personality and he's very social, so he can talk to anyone. He would host these dinner parties and I just saw him being like, social and fun. And like my ex was like, he was really social, but he'd lost himself in like the drugs and the gaming. And so I was looking for someone like that who could be a partner that could like host things with me and like be around and people liked them. And I think what I've learned is I love big personalities. So I've been attracted to both romantic relationships and friendships that have like big personalities have just jumped out at me. And it's gotten me into some trouble because I feel like those personalities are very passionate and they usually don't end well. But that's what I loved about Jordan in the beginning, is that he could talk to anyone. He made me feel comfortable. We just clicked right away. Like we really had a strong connection and he didn't care that I was going through a divorce. He understood it and I Think at the time, I felt like I was gonna get a lot of judgment and how do I date with this baggage I now have? And he didn't care. So it was just really comforting to know, like, oh, I can find someone who's gonna accept me for who I am.

E (33:47)

It's beautiful.

A (33:47)

Yeah.

C (33:48)

You guys have been through a lot.

B (33:49)

Yeah.

C (33:50)

All marriages and relationships take a lot of work. And there's good and bad times, but in your darkest moments, for the people who stay in the fight, so to speak, there's this. How can we get back to how it was? What are some things or moments that you and Jordan, from your point, what do you hope to get back to with Jordan?

B (34:10)

Yeah, so, like the first year of our marriage, it was pretty good. And we had our son and we were getting married and we were building this new life together. And I actually feel like that was probably one of the happiest times of my life is like that first year. And he used to be like my safe place and my comfort and everything a partner should be. What I love about our dynamic is that our parents are best friends, so, like, we all go on vacation together. That's so unheard of. Like, to have both your in laws, like, like hang out all the time and vacation together. We have a really good thing going as far as, like, the life we've built, and I love that. So, you know, it's. It's definitely changed a lot and certain things have fallen apart. But I would love to get back to the happy times when, like, he was someone that was supportive of me. And I think that from my point of view, the more success I got, maybe he was a little threatened because he wasn't the provider. And I think men do struggle with that sometimes, especially in the Mormon culture. It's like you're supposed to be the provider. And even though he's not Mormon, you grow up in that community and you have a certain way of thinking, and if the woman's making more money, it can be threatening. And Jordan ended up quitting his job and, like, didn't have a purpose. And I actually think that played a lot into, like, how he treated me. So I would love to get back to, like, the first year when I just felt really secure and comfortable and confident and he, like, built me up. And then over time, it kind of went downhill. But yeah, I know he's in there still, and I will say I'll let him kind of speak for his journey, but he's done a lot of therapy and he's. He has made a lot of changes, and I've been really proud of those. So I think we're getting there. It's not perfect. There's still ups and downs, but we're. We're on a better path, and I really hope that we can continue that way.

C (35:45)

Do you remember a time or something specific he said early in your relationship where he really made you feel validated and supported?

B (35:54)

Yeah, like, I just remember when we were dating an early marriage, like, he loved that I was so successful. Like, he was so admirable of it. And, like, he just thought it was so cool that I was a hard worker, and he loved that about me. And then I think once we had kids and over time, he started to resent it. So I just felt like in the beginning, he built my confidence so much. Like, badass businesswoman. Like, you're a mom. You can do all this. And then it kind of just, like, changed. So he really helped my confidence in the beginning. And it's funny that he's now the one that's, like, torn it down. But, yeah, like, he really was, like, more confident himself, maybe back then, and that's why. But, yeah, I feel like in the beginning, he really loved that I was successful.

C (36:30)

And it sounds like, again, there's a pattern with your first marriage, because you had your businesses in that first marriage.

B (36:36)

As you know, I opened it while I was married, so when we got married, I had nothing.

C (36:39)

Was that a theme as well in your first marriage, where they really struggled with the success that you had?

B (36:45)

Yeah. So his family. My ex's family's pretty wealthy. He had a trust fund, so he, I think, didn't have the best work ethic because of that. Cause he was just kind of handed everything. And I think his parents and his family, like, they are great people, but I think they liked to use money as, like, a control tactic of, like. Like, when we were first married, they were on our bank account for the first year. Like, they saw everything we did. When we got a dog, they were so opinionated on it. Like, they had to be a part of the decision. When I opened my business, like, I. We told them I was gonna open a salon, they didn't talk to us for two weeks. Cause they thought it was a bad idea. So there was a level of, like, resistance to my success. And then the more successful it got, I think that my ex was threatened by it a little bit because he didn't have much going on. He couldn't hold a job, and it was a little all over the place. So I think, yeah, for sure I had some of that. So when Jordan was, like, super, you know, like, hyping me up about my success, it felt really nice.

C (37:37)

As a woman growing up in a very traditional community, that's very patriarchy.

B (37:44)

Yes.

C (37:44)

How did you find that self confidence to want to start that business, to, you know, be that independent woman that you are?

B (37:52)

It happened out of the blue, I actually think. I always say it's like a little bit of delusion and like, a good work ethic. My parents really taught me to work. Like, the day I turned 16, my dad woke me up. He's like, we're going job hunting. Like, we always had jobs, and my parents did really well, but he never, like, handed us anything, and I'm so grateful for that now. So I just had the idea on a whim. I was driving by, like, a little building that was going to be my first salon. And it was like this little house. People called it the doll house, and it had a sign in the window, and I was like, that could be a cute salon. And I just popped in. I had had a traumatic experience with a salon owner, and she had told me to, like, never do hair again and you should quit and you're terrible. And I was a new stylist, but I. It was a little bit of, like, revenge, where I was like, I could do this. I could show her, like, I could open a salon. And I remember going to my parents, and I had already looked into getting a business loan, and I told them my whole plan. And my dad had always really pushed me to go to college, and he had a college fund set aside for me. I was 23. And he was like, are you sure you don't want to go to college instead of doing this? And I was like, no, I want to do hair. And I'd already gone to hair school. And I remember he sat me down before I opened, and he said, have you ever seen Shark Tank? And I was like, yeah, why? And he's like, I want to be your investor. I'll be silent, but I'm going to give you your college fund for the salon. I don't want to know anything about it. I don't want to be in the hair world, but I'll give you this, and you can, you know, pay me back over time. And I was like, great. So that's how I opened it. And over time, it got successful. And I. I will say, like, one of the things about myself that I pride the most is my work ethic. I feel like I have a really good one, and I built it to the point of needing, like, my whole family to be involved within six months. So my dad retired, became involved. My mom quit her job, became involved. I now employ my two sisters, my grandpa. Like, we're all a family business now. And so within that first year, it really evolved into that, and then it just took off. So I actually think that. But that business really helped me find my voice, and I actually think it's a big part of why I got divorced, because I did go into that marriage feeling not good enough and just kind of small. And then I was able to do this incredible thing and become, like, a multimillionaire within a few years. And my ex was going the opposite way, and it just gave me the confidence of, like, wait, look at what I've done. Like, look what I've built. Not that I'm better than him, but, like, he held me back a little bit. His family held me back. And I didn't realize it till I took the blinders off. And my business really gave me the confidence. I needed, I think, to leave that because I had built this incredible thing from. I mean, my dad helped me. I did pay him back in the beginning, and then he just became part owner, but I got my ged. Like, I didn't go to school. So, like, the fact that I was able to build that, I think helped my confidence a lot.

C (40:23)

I'm curious because obviously when you met Jordan, you said, like, part of the attraction was, at first he made you feel supported and was proud of your success. Yeah, go. When you met Jordan, were. Were you a little skeptical just because of how things end with your first marriage? And, like, what. What questions or what, like, vibe checks did you do with Jordan to see is this a guy who's gonna be able to support me in the way I need to be supported and not feel emasculated? Because, you know, it's not just the Mormon religion. I think a lot of men struggle of being in relationships with very successful women, especially if men don't have their purpose, regardless of, like, how much money they make or don't make. But if they're still like, like, finding their thing, it can be very difficult for men. So how did you. What conversations did you have with Jordan? At least at first, that made you feel like, oh, this might be different.

B (41:17)

Again, my business gave me a lot of confidence to leave, but my ex really beat me down. Like, I didn't have a ton of self confidence. So I actually think part of the reason I Moved on so quickly is I was looking for someone to give me that. And I probably didn't ask the right questions, if I'm being honest, because I left it as a pretty abusive situation and jumped into a new one. And I think because of that, I was just like, get me out of this. Like, get me something new and fresh. And I didn't really think, like, Jordan had a really good job, and he had a. He had his own house. Like, he was doing well on his own. So I thought that was enough. Like, oh, he has his own thing. He won't be threatened. And again, he was so complimentary of my business in the beginning that I think I just took that and ran with it. But looking back, I actually don't think I asked the right questions because I jumped so quickly. And I literally used it as a band aid, so I wish I would have taken more time. For example, I left my husband in September, and me and Jordan were married by March. So it was, like, so quick. I just used it as a band aid, jumped right in. And I didn't even think. Like, I was just, like, I'm very impulsive. Like, I opened my business on a whim. Like, I just said. Like, I just do things. And I think in the last little bit, especially with my marriage, I've learned how to be less impulsive. And, oh, I've repeated these same mistakes a few times. What can I do differently? And I credit therapy to that. I've been in therapy since March for, like, I go, like, four to six hours a week usually. There's been weeks I've missed because of busyness, but that's helped me so much, like, find my voice and realize what I did wrong. And that's actually such a good question. Cause I think I didn't ask the right questions.

E (42:45)

We have noticed that you have been going by your maiden name.

B (42:48)

Yes. Yeah. Why is that? There's a few reasons. I actually remember, before the show came out, telling Jordan, like, maybe I should go by Jesse Draper because it's an easy name to remember. It's like.

C (42:59)

It's a very cool name.

B (43:00)

Yeah, it is, right? There's a city in Utah named Draper, and my family was, like, a part of, like, owning it or, like, founding it or whatever. So I just thought it was cool. So I just always thought it was, like, an easier name. Plus, I have a family business. Like, I employ my sisters, my mom and dad, and that we're all Draper. So, like, it just was, like, kind of cool that I'm like, I have this family business, we're all Drapers, but really, the last year, I've noticed that being in the public eye, no one knows how to say my last name. You guys know, because I've told you. But, like, if you had to look at it, it's been butchered more times than I can tell you.

C (43:29)

I know the feeling.

B (43:30)

Yeah. Like, it's hard. And so I'm like, yeah. Wait, how do you say your last name?

C (43:34)

Vile.

B (43:34)

Vile. So it's like how the vile comes. That's how it's. Okay, I didn't know. But people are always saying by all we still. Yeah. Yes. You know, but mine's like 11 letters. Like, people just always really struggle, and I get it. So I was just like, if I'm gonna build a career in this industry, like, I should probably have a name that rolls off the tongue. So Jesse Draper is a great name. So I just have decided to go by that because it's a little bit easier. And there is a part of me that likes the independence of, like, I have a family business, this is my name. I'm really proud of it, and it's just kind of what I want to do. So I don't know. I mean, the timing of it's a little interesting because of what me and Jordan have gone through, but that's going to be my name moving forward.

E (44:11)

So this is something you've always kind of thought about, and it just so happens that you're going about it now.

B (44:16)

Yeah. Yeah. I've always wanted to do it, but, you know, when the show first came out, we didn't know how big it was going to be, so I was like, eh, maybe it doesn't matter now. I've realized, like, every interview I've ever done, it's gotten butchered. Someone called me Nasty Kara the other day, so I was like, okay, I think it's time to pivot, you know? Yeah.

C (44:32)

Later this episode, I'll be sitting down with Jordan, talking one on one with him, and I'm curious, and I certainly have a lot of questions and things I want to ask him. But what are you hoping to hear from Jordan, and what are you afraid of him possibly not. Not seeing things the way you see things.

B (44:52)

I will say Jordan's taken a lot of accountability. He's made a lot of changes, and I've been proud of that. But he's human, and I think that there's moments where he can get defensive over the way he's treated me. Like he's tried to justify things, and I Think because I did cheat, he definitely holds that over me. Like, what you did was worse. And 100% cheating is never okay. I wish I wouldn't have done it. Like, I. I can't even say how much I regret that, and I will always take full ownership for that. But it was like, we couldn't really tell our story without telling what he did too, because it's why I got there. Not to blame him for what I did, but, like, our relationship was so toxic and tumultuous that, like, I wouldn't have done what I did if. If. If it hadn't have been that way. Right. So, like, I am grateful that he was willing to showcase some of our dynamic. What's a little frustrating is I think a lot of it got cut out. Like, when you watch season three, like, the first half is pretty heavy on our story, and the second half, like, kind like, of. And we got back together. So, like, I get it. But there was a lot that wasn't shown, like, of our fighting and crying and, like, just our dynamic.

C (45:55)

So we will get into that.

B (45:56)

Yeah, we'll get into that. But I think that he can get defensive at times and try to, like, throw it back on me, like, well, you cheated again. I get it. But I just. I really hope he takes ownership of it fully and realizes that how he treated me was really wrong because it wasn't just while we were filming the show. This has been going on for four years, and my family and friends have seen it. Everyone in my life has seen it. I think the hardest part for me right now is there's, like, not a single person in my life who likes Jordan. So it's like, people like him, but, like, they've all seen how he's treated me, and everyone keeps him at arm's length. And that's a really hard, like, roadblock.

E (46:28)

To get, especially going from, like, him being this most liked guy, throwing all these parties that he fell in love with into.

B (46:33)

I felt like I was, like, blindsided a little.

E (46:35)

Yeah.

A (46:35)

Really?

E (46:36)

You're legally changing your last name?

B (46:38)

No, I'm not gonna legally change it because my kids have Naatikara, and I just feel like, legally, like, whatever, but publicly, everything I do online, in the media, basically everything. But, like, my driver's license, I'm going to do Draper. Okay.

C (46:51)

Well, as Jordan when. When he's here. But how does he feel about that?

B (46:55)

I don't think he was stoked at the beginning. He can speak on it. I don't think he was super happy, but I think he also, we're at a really interesting point in our relationship where he does know what he's done wrong. And our therapist has been a godsend. Like, he would not be who he is today without her. And she's really helped him realize a lot of things. But the last little bit especially, we've been in a place where I'm half in, half out. And he knows if he was like, you can't do that. I'm like, bye, like, peace. Then, like, I. I'm one foot out the door. So, like, if you push me, not that that's like healthy, but like, he was very, very, very controlling our entire marriage for the most part. So if he tried to tell me I couldn't do this, I'd be like, okay, I'm done. So anything that comes to the surface now, that's like controlling, toxic, I'm like, I'm done. And so he knows that he really can't, like, push back on it because I'd be like, okay then.

E (47:40)

Well, this is obviously a special episode. We're doing a two parter. I want to talk to you woman to woman. I think Nick should talk to Jordan, man to man.

B (47:48)

Oh, yeah. So I'll leave.

C (47:50)

I'll leave you ladies to it.

A (47:52)

Thank you.

B (47:53)

Have you ever done that?

E (47:54)

No.

B (47:54)

Oh, this is fun.

E (47:55)

Never done.

B (47:55)

Have you ever done like a one on one? I guess you used to do your podcast alone. Duh. That was a dumb question. He's like, she's new around here.

C (48:02)

I'm hear the thing.

B (48:03)

Yeah. Thank you.

A (48:08)

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B (51:33)

I think this is going to be a good dynamic, like girl to girl and then man to man. That'll be good.

E (51:37)

How are you?

B (51:38)

I'm good. I feel like the last six months, especially like we wrapped filming and it's just kind of been like a waiting period of this coming out. I think that's been like the hardest part is like knowing what's coming out but no one knows yet. And there's been a lot of speculation online, but no one really knew. I think a lot of people assumed Demi set me up and that it was all fake. And even though it was a lie, there was a, you know, a part of it that happened and it was true. So I think knowing that the world like knows that now is like really scary. So that's been hard. Um, Jordan and I got back together and we've been working on things and it's been up and down, to be honest. Like, it's definitely been tumultuous, but the last like month or two has been a lot better. Like we, we've turned a corner and it's getting better. And I just had to get to a point where I was like, okay, if I'm gonna be in this and make it work, I wanna give it my all. Because if it doesn't work out, at least I tried. And if it does work out, great, obviously that's the hope. But yeah, it's been a good. A rough six months, I would say.

E (52:35)

You obviously have talked a lot about you and Jordan and kind of what has happened throughout your relationship. Do you remember the specific moment that things shifted?

B (52:46)

It wasn't like one thing, whereas with my ex husband it was like one thing and then another thing and another thing. It was like big moments. Whereas with Jordan it was over time of like him just like putting me down, yelling at me, berating me, being super controlling. Like it was just little things. And I think that's why it blindsided me so much is because it just was over time, really small movements and then it Became just, like, this toxic cycle, but I was already in it, and so it was, like, hard to really notice until it was like, whoa.

A (53:14)

Yeah.

E (53:14)

Did it kind of feel like. Like, this is normal because you kind of had lived through it already?

B (53:18)

Oh, totally. Like, my. My muscle memories used to being, like, yelled at. Like, I remember I. When I was first married, like, there were really hard moments. Like, he was, like, super emotionally abusive, I would say more so than Jordan, to be honest. Jordan's in different ways, but, like, I had already dealt with worse, so it was like, this is normal for marriage. It's just hard. And at least it's not as bad as my first one. Right. But then over time, it got to that point where it was as bad. Yeah. Like, I just remember with Jordan, like, the reason I left was because we'd been dealing with the affair for about six months behind closed doors. No one knew. And then Layla found out, and then it came out. Right. But during that six months, it got worse than it ever had. He was, like, blackmailing me. He was, like, threatening to, like, send my texts out to Marciano to the world. And, like, anytime I did anything he didn't agree with or he, like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna. He had it on his TikTok drafts, and he was like, I'm gonna post it. Like, it was so toxic. And I remember the day I left him, it got to a point where, like. Like, he was recording me, and he's, like, taunting me, and I was chasing around the house. We were just screaming at each other. It was so bad. And looking back now and saying that I'm like, that is so crazy to admit. But it got to that point where I was like, I can't do this. What the hell am I doing? And that's why I left. Like, it was like the glass shattered. So I would say, over time, it was really bad. And then, like, that last six months, it got worse.

E (54:34)

And that was after.

B (54:36)

After the affair. Yeah. Okay.

E (54:37)

But you had told him six months before you started filming, and those six months.

B (54:42)

Yeah. Cause he knew two weeks after I kissed Marciano, he knew. So he knew, like, pretty quickly. Um, and so for six months, we dealt with it in private. Not a single person knew what was.

E (54:50)

Going through your head in those two weeks.

B (54:53)

I was at a really low place because Jordan had gotten me to a point where, like, my confidence was shattered. Like, I couldn't do anything right. He was really resentful of my business. Everything I did, name calling, putting me down, like, it was just really Bad. Um, and again, not to blame Jordan for what I did, but I was just not in a great headspace at all. Like, I was, I feel, being emotionally abused, and it was bringing back a lot of my wounds for my first marriage. And I was really unhappy because of that. I was also a year out from having a baby, so my hormones were, like, crazy. Like, I just was in a dark place. And again, not to justify, but that's just where my headset was at. Like, I was just in a dark place. And I did it. I kissed him. We kissed two times. That's it. And then we were texting for a couple weeks. And for me, it felt like an out of body experience. Like. Like, whenever I was talking to him, I felt like I wasn't in my body. I was just, like, using it as a release and, like, a distraction. And I was so unhappy that I was just, like, it was almost a cry for help of, like, maybe this can get me out of what I'm in. Not that I wanted to get caught and not that I did it on purpose, but, like, it was subconscious. Like, this is the only way I could be free. Like, I just remember thinking that, like, something really crazy has to happen because I've threatened divorce so many times to Jordan before the affair, and it was never taken seriously. I never followed through because I was scared. But it was almost like in my head, I was like, if I do this, like, maybe I can get out.

A (56:09)

Wow.

B (56:10)

And I just remember being in that headspace.

E (56:12)

But you, the two of you were separated when this affair happened.

B (56:16)

Okay, so that's something I want to clear up, because this is. Okay, so the show showed a little bit of this. So in the show, I think you say you see me say, like, me and Jordan were separated. Yeah, that wasn't true. But the reason I said that is because in those six months when me and Jordan were dealing with this alone, he said to me, if anyone ever finds out, we need to say we were separated, because then it's, like, less of a big deal. So I remembered Jordan telling me, that's how I want you to handle this if anyone found out. So when Layla came to me, I was obviously blindsided. And I couldn't, like, call Jordan in that moment, but I was like, jordan's gonna want me to say this, and we're on camera, so I'm gonna say it. So I said it. And then the next day, I did tell Layla the truth. Cause I went home, and obviously me and Jordan had a hard night, and he ended up Saying, like, okay, if this is gonna come out, we have to tell the truth. Like, we can't go along with a lie and get caught in it. Cause then the whole thing unravels and we just decided we're gonna be honest. So I told Layla the truth the next day, but it was off camera. So then that story never really, like, came to be. So to be honest, it makes me sound better that we were separated, but we weren't.

E (57:12)

Okay, well, thank you for clearing that up.

B (57:14)

Yeah.

E (57:16)

Before the not separation, when this. When this whole thing happened, what. What led you to coming to LA feeling the way you were feeling? Like, what are some examples of things he would call you or things he.

B (57:29)

Would say to you? Marciano or Jordan.

E (57:31)

Jordan.

B (57:31)

Oh. Oh. So it was a lot of control of, like, how I dressed, what I did, what I said, how much I worked. Like, everything. Like, if I left the fridge door open, like, actually, to this day I still have ptsd. Like, you know when you leave the door open and it, like starts to beat? When that happens, like, my heart starts racing. Cause I would get yelled, like, if I left. Shut the door. Yes. Like, just in such a degrading way, you know? And so it was like, little things. I felt like I was always walking on eggshells with Jordan. Couldn't do anything right, like, at all. Mom shaming a lot, like, calling me names, like, B word, C word. Like, just all these things. Like, if we were fighting, he would, like, physically, like, block me from doors if I tried to leave and we were fighting. Like, just like, stuff like that, you know? Like, it's hard because, like, I don't want to go into a ton of detail because I have kids and, like, I obviously don't want them to, like, like, hear or see things, but.

E (58:21)

So he never did anything in front of your children?

B (58:23)

No, he did. Like, that's the thing is, like, it got to a point, and that's another reason the glass shattered for me is my kids were starting to notice. Like, my daughter would say things like, stop, stop. And she's two. And like Jagger, my five year old, like, really started to notice. And that's when I was like, oh, my gosh, like, this can't continue. And I think his daughter Peyton also saw a lot. So I think that another was another thing for me where I was like, this can't go on.

E (58:45)

Did that phase him at all when any of your kids would speak up?

B (58:49)

I don't think so, because, like, I would tell him things like, hey, like, Peyton said this to me. She noticed, like, I would try to tell him, and I think he would just kind of downplay it. And I think when you're also in, like, that rage, like, I've been there too, where, like, you can't see straight. Like, you're seeing red. And so, like, it doesn't really matter what the kids are saying because he's just so angry. That's kind of how he would get. And I've been in phases like that, too, so I get it. But no, like, I think that it didn't really hit him until, honestly, we started going to therapy, and now he's actually dealing with a lot of his wounds. He'll probably talk to Nick about it, but that a lot of his wounds from his first marriage and his daughter, I think, were why he acted the way he did. And now he's been dealing with all that, and it's been coming to the surface. And now I think he realizes, like, oh, my kids have seen this, and he's been way more aware of it now. So it's been a lot better. I will say that it's actually funny because we're at a point now where, like, it's getting better now, but, like, the little first little bit after we got back together, he was actually being a lot better. And it was almost me that, like, I couldn't get there. Like, I was. Was so resentful of how he treated me. And I don't know if anyone can relate to this if they've been through it, but the better Jordan got, the more resentful I was, because I was like, why couldn't you help me with this before? Why couldn't you have done. I've been asking you for four years to treat me right. Like, why.

E (59:56)

Like, why did I have to do this for you to treat me how I should?

B (60:00)

Why did I have to leave for you to change? Why does it have to be on camera for you to change? Like, it almost just made it so much harder for me because I'm like, the potential was there, and you knew what I needed. I was very clear for four years when I needed. Like, I threatened divorce so many times. Like, he knew, and he didn't change until it was public. So there was a part of me that was, like, really resentful about that. I had to get through that in therapy. I'm still working on it, to be honest. Like, there's still triggers I have, and I still have moments. But, yeah, it was definitely, like, a hard little bit at the beginning.

E (60:28)

So when you finished texting Marciano your emotional affair?

B (60:32)

Yeah.

E (60:33)

How did you go to Jordan and tell him what happened?

B (60:37)

It was probably the worst day of both of our lives. It was very traumatic. Probably a shame it wasn't on camera. Cause it would have been great. But we were in Vegas, and he found out, so we went to Vegas. It was me, Jordan, my two sisters and their husbands. And we went to, like, a live podcast show. We made it, like, a couple's trip. And Marciano lives in Vegas, so he knew we were coming. And I. He was like, we should try to see each other. And I was, like, nervous about it, but I was like, okay, like, we can all hang out as a big group, and, like, hopefully it'll be fine. So we did, and it was fine. But then one night, we were in line for dinner, and I was texting Marciano, and it wasn't anything bad. I was just like, oh, we're at this restaurant if you want to meet us. And Jordan just happened to look over my shoulder and saw that there were, like, multiple texts. And he literally grabbed my phone, went into the bathroom, and, like, read them all. And I. We were screaming at each other in the middle of this hotel. It was so traumatic. And he, like, screen recorded them all, sent them to himself, and that's what he, like, blackmailed me with. Um, but he found out that moment. We stayed up all night, like, trying to figure out what we were gonna do. And, yeah, it was. It was awful.

E (61:38)

So Marciano didn't tell Jordan that y' all had sex?

B (61:41)

No. That's why, like, when Layla told me what she knew, like, I was obviously shocked it was coming out, but I was so mind blown that he had lied because I was like, what? Like, that's never been the narrative. What are you talking about? Like, Jordan knew that wasn't the narrative because it was coming out. Why wouldn't I have just said it?

C (61:57)

It.

B (61:57)

I actually feel like Marciano screwed himself over by lying, because now it's almost like that took over the fact that I had an affair. It's like getting to the bottom of the truth.

E (62:05)

Yeah.

B (62:06)

But, like, I still did something really wrong. But since he lied, it took it to the next level. And he's hard to believe now, you know? So, yeah, I was really shocked he said that.

E (62:14)

So you came to LA and you met Marciano at, like, a bar with other people.

A (62:19)

Right.

B (62:19)

So I met Marciano when we did Vanderpump Villa in Italy. And this was a month later, so I knew him from that. Nothing inappropriate happened there with me. And then a month later, I was going out to do Sheena's podcast, and they're friends, so I didn't know this, but at the time, it was supposed to be me and Demi going together. I knew that, like, we were going out to do the podcast together, and that was the time contracts happened, and she, like, freaked out on me, and that all went down, and so she bailed on the podcast the day before. So I was like, oh, I guess I'm going out alone. I didn't know he was also going out because he knew she was going out, and they were, like, gonna meet up. So I show up, he's there, and I was like, oh, I didn't know you were gonna be here. Cause he thought we were both gonna be there. So me, Sheena, Brock, and Marciano went out that night, and we went to Sur. We went to TomTom. I wasn't going into that weekend, by any means, thinking anything was gonna happen, but I was in a really dark place in my life. I had, like, four espresso martinis, so I wasn't making the best decisions. And he was just being so complimentary of me, and. And it's like the typical, like, you know, like, when you're not getting that at home and someone's giving it to you and, like, telling you how cool you are and how pretty you are and how awesome you are, and you hear the opposite every day. It just was nice. And so I kissed him, and then.

E (63:28)

I woke up, and you kissed him. Not in public. Not it.

A (63:32)

Okay.

B (63:32)

No, it was funny because in the second season, there was that rumor that we had kissed at the bar. That never happened, so I wasn't even that drunk yet when we were out. It was, like, later on, never happened. Like, we were kind of flirty in person, so maybe people just, like, assumed. But it happened in my hotel room. Like, he, like, dropped me off or whatever, and it happened there. And then it happened once again in the Uber on the way to the airport, and that's it.

E (63:53)

And had he given you this kind of energy at Vanderpump Villa? Like, had he been flirty, complimentary of you there, or was he just, like, full focused on Demi?

B (64:02)

No. Yeah, he was, like, in love with Demi, so I didn't even think of him as, like, a. A prospect. Not that I was even looking for someone, but, like, I just thought he was, like, so in love with Demi, and there was a whole thing with that. So. No, like, I knew he was, like, a flirty guy, but he was so focused on her that I was kind of shocked when he, like, started focusing on me.

E (64:20)

So when y' all went back to your hotel, were you, like, come up? Was he like, let me walk you to your door?

A (64:26)

Like, how did.

E (64:27)

How did he end up in your room?

B (64:29)

Okay, so me, Sheena, Brock, and him all went back to my room, and we were hanging out in the room together, and then we were all, like, pretty drunk. And then they all three left. So they left. And then he was texting me, and he was like, I'm gonna stay in the area and go out to other places. And I was like, okay. And then I was so drunk, and we were just, like, flirting, and I was like, you can come back if you want. And in my head, I wasn't like, ooh, come back. But I was just, like, having fun, and I was like, oh. Like, I was drunk. Like, I. I wish I wouldn't have done it, but I did. So we came back, and we were just talking and stuff, and then we kissed. And then pretty sure he was on other substances. He passed out, and so he ended up sleeping over, but he was like, nothing happened. He just fell asleep, like, mid conversation. And I remember by that time, like, I was starting to, like, sober up a little bit. And I stayed up all night. Like, I didn't sleep at all because I was like, what did I just do? Like, so I stayed up, he was asleep, and I was just, like, sick to my stomach about it. I was like, oh, what did I do? And then we hung out the next day with, like, Sheena and Brock, and we just, like, pretended nothing happened. Or at least I did. I think he told them something did, but I didn't know that at the time. And then, yeah, we just, like, hung out. Nothing happened that next day. And then the next day, we both took an Uber to the airport together, and he kissed me right before we got got out.

E (65:35)

Sheena never said anything to you about.

A (65:37)

Like, he told me this or no.

B (65:40)

I think I noticed, like, because, like, I was, like, flirting with him because I was, like, in that mindset, so. And I was. I honestly was just so unhappy that I was just like, whatever. Like, again, like, a silent cry for help. I was like, maybe this will get me out of it. But, yeah, it was flirty. I think she noticed that, but she never said anything to me that she thought anything happened.

A (65:56)

Why do you feel like it didn't.

E (65:57)

End in that hotel room? Yeah, when you stayed up all night and you felt guilty, like, why didn't it in there?

B (66:04)

I think because he was giving me attention and it was something I was looking for at home. Yeah, I. It felt nice to be honest. And my. My self confidence was really low. I had also just had that big fight with Demi and I hate to say it influenced it, but I think it did a little bit because she made me feel this big. Like, it was awful, like, the things she said to me. And so it was almost like this guy's giving me attention and my best friend just like, tore me down. My husband's been tearing me down. I was just like, not feeling good about myself. And I think when you have low self esteem, like, that's when you make the stupidest decisions. But I really liked the attention, if I'm being honest. Like, it was just nice to be, like, valued.

E (66:37)

And it didn't take him much to come back to your hotel room and.

B (66:41)

No, it didn't. Like, yeah, he's a boy. Like, I'm sure he thought something was going to happen, you know? Like, I think in the show actually it talks about how he, like, took a Cialis pill. He took a Cialis and we talk about it how, like, he thought he was like, I don't even know what sialis is. Is it like a sex pill?

A (66:55)

Is it like Viagra?

B (66:56)

Yeah, I think it is. Yeah. But when he said. Because in the moment I rem him saying I took a sialis, I thought that was drugs. And so I was like, oh, he's on drugs. Like, okay. But then when we all unraveled in season three, like, I was like, you took a Viagra? Like, I had no idea that's what it was. So I think he thought he was getting some. I will say, like, even though I did this terrible thing, I know I never would have had sex with him. Like, being married, I just couldn't have done that. So I know I wouldn't have let it gone that far. But I think for me, I was just like, kissing and flirting. Like, I was drunk. Like, it just was fun and stupid. But I. I know I wouldn't done that.

E (67:27)

And at this point, like, how hopeful were you that you and Jordan would figure out how to get back to that first year of your marriage?

B (67:34)

Oh, not at all.

E (67:35)

Not at all.

B (67:35)

I. I wanted to get out every single day. And I think in season three, something I regret watching it back, was how, like, nice and borderline flirty I was with Marciano in when we met up with him. Because at that point too, me and Jordan, you. You guys see, I come home from that trip and how he talks to me after. Like, he yells at me. That was our everyday times 20. Like, that was nothing, you know? So I was in that, and I was like, we're separated. We're probably getting divorced. At that time, I was getting divorced, and I was just like, fuck it. Like, I didn't know what I wanted. And I. Looking back, I wish I would have been meaner to Marciano after what he put me through, but I also wanted to get to the truth of the Demi stuff. So, like, I was being nice to him because I'm like, I want to know the truth. Like, he needs to give me details. So it was a really weird place to be in. But looking back, that's my biggest regret is I wish I just would have been, like. Like, harsher to him because he put me through hell. Like, what he did was terrible. What he did was terrible. Yeah.

E (68:25)

I mean, and also. But, like, you kind of almost got what you were looking for, you know? Like, you did almost get a divorce. So, like, what changed to where you decided to work on it with Jordan?

B (68:37)

Yeah, I was pretty set on getting divorced as the season progressed. We were going to therapy together, so we each did individual therapy, and then we did couples therapy during our whole separation as well. Not to get back together, but to, like, navigate filming this process. And also, if we did get divorced, what would that look like for our kids? But during that, I saw a lot of changes, and I honestly was just so scared, like, breaking up my family. Our parents are so close. Like I said, we have such a good thing going. Leaving all this aside. It's the life we've built together, you know? And at the end of the day, I used to really love him and care about him, and he was my best friend. And I just started to realize, like, if he can start to change, maybe we can get that back. And getting divorced for a second time is terrifying. And even though there were days I really thought it was gonna happen, I think ultimately I was like, I haven't really given this a chance of, like, letting him go to therapy and see if it can change, so why not just try?

E (69:33)

Was there kind of, like, a point of seeing what your life would have been like if you had have gotten divorced, and you were kind of like, actually, I don't want this. And I'm seeing him kind of change, and I want to give him the benefit of the doubt that he can do this?

B (69:46)

Yeah. It's what I wish the show would have shown more of is, like, I had a hotel, and I lived there and what we would do is I would go for two days, he would go for two days, and then the other person would go back to the house with the kids. So they filmed a lot of it, but it wasn't shown of just like that separate life we were living. And actually the hotel for me was the least hard part. Cause it's like kind of like an escape. Like I can go unwind being home alone without him and doing the kid routine and. And being in our environment together was harder for me. And it really opened my eyes to like, oh, this is what life would look like. And yes, I really wanted freedom and it felt nice at times. But then it was really hard when Jagger would see me crying and ask, what's going on? And I just had to tell him I was sick. And that stuff really hit home where I'm like, oh, my kids will be going through this. And it was just really hard. So, yeah, that full time we were filming, we were separated up until the last week. And so, yeah, I lived probably two months of, of seeing what it would be like. And there were good things for sure, but there were also hard things. So it gave me a taste. How did, what.

E (70:43)

What did your children think were going on?

B (70:45)

I don't know if they. They're quite old enough yet. But Jagger, my five year old, knew something. Like, he was like, why isn't daddy here? And he definitely was aware, like, why are you leaving? I travel a lot for work, so he's used to that. But the fact that it was two days on, two days off, he could tell. And he would ask if he'd go to the hotel with me and stuff. So. So we didn't explain it to him. But there was a moment in, like our separation. We talk about it on camera. It didn't make it to the show, I don't think, but it was really an eye opener, I think, for both Jordan and I. Cause we were fighting in front of Jagger during the separation and we always agreed we would leave the kids out of it. But there was a moment where Jordan got heated and he like picked Jagger up and was like, jagger, sit down. Mommy and daddy have to tell you we're getting divorced. And like, was using that, like, to taunt me. And in that moment I was like, like, oh, hell no. Like you. And so I think that kind of messed with Jagger a little bit. And that's when I was like, this is so unhealthy like, that. We can't let our kids be witnessing that and we can't use Them as pawns, you know? So that was, like, the worst part of our separation because it was, like, really bad. And that was, like, when he was yelling at me. You guys see some of that? And for me, that was when I was, like, really starting to see the effects on my kids and realizing what it might do to them. So not that I stayed for the kids fully, but, like, it was a big part of my decision. And now Jordan has made a lot of changes. And I will say, like, he is a different person than he was. And I. I love seeing that.

E (72:00)

Do you feel like he was.

A (72:01)

I guess.

E (72:02)

What was the difference between him finding out about you and Marciano in Vegas versus him talking about it on screen? Because he seemed, obviously, we saw clips, scenes where he's very angry, he's talking to you in ways that nobody would want to be talked to. Was it that bad at the time? Were you, like, shocked that, like, maybe he didn't explode as much as maybe.

A (72:24)

You thought he would, or did he explode in Vegas?

B (72:27)

So I guess, like, when we were filming about this, obviously the affair wasn't new to him, right? It had been six months. But I think it reopened wounds and it reopened his anger for sure. I was shocked. That scene at our house where he is yelling at me and stuff, I was shocked he did that on camera. I thought for sure, like, he just wouldn't show that. But that's really what opened up our dynamic. And to be honest, we weren't gonna talk about that. Like, we were just gonna talk about the affair. I think the first couple episodes, you see me just being like, I had low self esteem. That's why I did it. But we weren't gonna talk about the emotional abuse. And then it happened on camera, and we were like, well, we can't hide from it now, and we might as well share both the sides. So I was kind of shocked he did that. But to be honest, like, I think anyone who's been in abusive relationship can see that. The way he talked to me on camera, it's nothing new. And he's probably done it 20 times worse behind closed doors, you know, that was nothing new to me at all. That was, like, pretty tame. So I was used to that. That for sure.

A (73:16)

It felt like he.

E (73:17)

It felt like he kind of, you know, was very much like your affair. You did this.

A (73:21)

You did this.

E (73:22)

Did you feel like he was trying to protect you in a way, or do you feel like he wanted to win public opinion and be like, I'm not the bad guy.

B (73:30)

She is 100%. That's what it was. And I've said this to him. Anything I say about him, I've said to him. For me, it felt in the moment like he cared more about his image. And he kept using the word like, this is so emasculating. And that's all he cared about. It felt like is like. Like it was embarrassing. He got cheated on. He's less of a man. Cause he got cheated on. And it wasn't about the actual act. It was about how it made him look.

E (73:51)

Do you think that's why he said, let's tell everyone we were separated? Because he didn't want.

B (73:55)

Yes, I think that's exactly why. So I think that while we were filming, that's the mindset he was in. And I think as therapy went on and things changed, he started to see his part in it. I had never seen him actually take accountability for how he treated me until we were in therapy. For years, I'd been telling him, and he just, like, you play the victim. Like, he never saw it. Um, there were even times I called his mom crying, had her come over, like, I need help. Like, he. He knew, but he just didn't see it. And then we went to therapy, and she would see how he exploded on me. She calls his dark side Frank. Like, she had a name for it. Oh, wow. And she would see it come out. And so our therapist firsthand saw it. And that's when I think he realized. And now he's taken full accountability for how he's treated me. And that was a turning point for me. Cause he had never done that. And I'm like, okay, if you can see it and you can change, maybe we can make this work. But he never had before. And that's why I had to leave.

E (74:43)

And to have a professional be like, you have this dark side, so much so that, like, it needs a name.

B (74:50)

Yeah, it was helpful for me because she tried to phrase it in a way that was like, this isn't Jordan. This is a part of him. And everyone has parts. We have our controlling parts. We have our healing parts. We have our protective parts. So it's a part of him. And she really broke it down in that way. Like, it wasn't so much like, this is you and you're bad. It was just like, this is his part that comes out when he's hurt, when he's angry, when he's upset. And we name him Frank. Just so that, like, in the moment in therapy, if it's coming out, she'd be like, that's Frank. It's not you. And, like, she'll make him leave and, like, walk around and cool down and come back. And, like, I have parts too, and stuff. But, like, I think that that really opened my eyes to, like, okay, someone else is seeing this. And also having my friends and family, like, tell me how they feel. Like, no one thought I should be with him for a long time. I think in the show, my mom says, like, you should have left him years ago. Yeah. Instead of cheating, you should have just left, you know? So people saw it. It was nothing people didn't know about. But I tried really hard to hide it, but people just saw and knew.

E (75:41)

Did that make it, like, more comforting in a way that you had all these people that you could lean on who knew that this was going on, or did it make you feel like you were doing something wrong?

B (75:52)

A little bit of both. It was comforting that, like, going to my family and friends, no one was gonna be shocked. They were shocked about my affair, for sure. Like, no one thought I was gonna do that. But when I told them about Jordan's stuff, they were like, we know. Like, no one was surprised. And I feel like that was easier. But at the same time, I felt guilty, especially with my family, that I'm like, I'm putting you guys through this again. Like, you already saw me go through an abusive situation. Now it's happening again. Like, I just felt so bad that, like, I hadn't learned my lesson. I just felt guilty.

E (76:24)

Why do you feel like he was so willing to, like, blackmail you and throw you under the bus? The mother of his kids? Like, why was he so okay doing that?

B (76:34)

I think he was just really hurt, obviously. And when you're hurt, you do stupid things. I think, again, maybe an image thing, because if he could be the one to break it and, like, show that I did something wrong. He looks like the wounded victim, and I'm the one who did this horrible thing. I think that's really just where it was coming from, is, like, hurt and anger. And I think I would be interested to see what he says about it, because we did talk about it a lot on the show, but it got cut. Like, the blackmail of it all. So he's open to talking about it. Cause we already shared it, but, yeah, I think it was just coming from a place of, like, really being hurt.

E (77:05)

Abuse is such a strong word. I've been in several abusive relationships, and it's such a.

A (77:11)

Like, do you feel like he's ever.

E (77:13)

Gonna be able to live down that.

B (77:17)

It'S hard because you guys see Jen and Zach go through this in season one, right? And the whole world ridiculed Zach, and he had a hard time. So there's been a part of me that's like, ooh, are we gonna go through that too? And not just that, but, like, I also had an affair, so it's me as well. Like, I did something terrible. So did he. And it's both of us. So, like, are we both gonna get a lot of hate? Are we both never gonna shake the label of cheater and abuser? Like, yeah, I'm very aware of that. It could happen. But I'm hoping that by sharing our story, I know a lot of people can relate to being cheated on, cheating, being abused, maybe being the one doing it. Like, our story, unfortunately, isn't that real. And so I do hope that by sharing it and showing that we're working on things, maybe it's inspiring. Not that, like, we did anything inspiring, but, like, life's hard. We both made mistakes. We're owning it, we're talking about it, and we're trying to get better. And that shows anyone in a similar situation, they can do that too. But I do think the thing with Jordan is he is gonna own it, I hope. And he's changing, and I think that if you can do that, you can shake it. I think Connor's a great example of, like, season one. You saw what he did to Whitney. Like, he had the whole Tinder thing, and I don't think anyone thinks about that now. Connor completely redeemed himself. He's such a great guy, and he had a little blip of a mistake, and he shared it, and we moved on. And I think. I hope that's what can happen with us.

E (78:33)

I mean, I hope in season four, we see these changes that he's made, and we see him. You know, I feel like that's kind of what happens.

B (78:40)

I think you'll see some up and down in the future.

A (78:42)

Yeah.

B (78:43)

Again, our separation and getting back together was tumultuous. But, yes, I do think eventually you'll see that it comes together.

E (78:49)

Do you feel like he's capable of supporting you the way that you need to be supported as mom, as a businesswoman?

A (78:56)

Like.

B (78:56)

Yeah.

E (78:57)

In all aspects.

B (78:58)

Yes and no. He's made a lot of changes, and there's been a lot of improvement there, and he knows what I need, and there's really great moments of it. There have been some times he's fallen back into patterns, but now we're in a Place where I used to just shut down and, like, not say anything and just let it happen. And now I'm, like, very vocal, and so I'll tell him, like, this is what I need. This is what I can't have. And he listens to the feedback now, which is good. So I do feel like. Like it's gotten to a better place. But he knows to this day, if it ever went back to what it was, I'm done. I'm out. Like, I won't put up with it again.

E (79:30)

Where's that strength come from?

B (79:32)

I think leaving, like, actually pulling the trigger and, like, leaving. I don't think he would have changed and gone to therapy if I hadn't have done that. It really broke him to the point where he called the therapist that night, and that's when he started therapy, and I think that helped him a ton. But if I hadn't have left, it would have just continued in that cycle. And then, even though the separation was hard, I saw that I could do it on my own. Like, I know that I. It's. Being a single mom would be hard, but I could do it. I run three businesses. I film a show. I have two kids. I. I know I'm pretty strong that way, and I've learned so much throughout this process that, like, I have found a new strength in myself where I know I could do it, and I'd be fine. It would be really hard, but I could do it.

E (80:08)

We saw a little bit in the season, you kind of still interacting with Marciano. Obviously, there was, like, the lie detector.

D (80:16)

Yeah.

E (80:16)

He brought you flowers.

B (80:17)

Yeah.

E (80:18)

You kind of seemed, like, a little giddy in those moments. And then there was. You didn't tell Jordan that he was coming to dinner. I guess, looking back on all that now, what do you think about it again?

B (80:28)

I wish I wouldn't have been as, like, nice and flirty with him. I was in a headspace where I was like, I think I'm getting divorced. Not that I would have dated Marciano, but, like, it was this person that had been so complimentary to me. And I really went into it being like, I do need to be nice to him, because I need him to admit he was lying. I need him to be willing to take the lie detector test. I also want to know the truth about Demi. So if I came across too harsh, he would have just shut down and not done any of that. So there was a strategy there. But also, it just felt nice again to, like. It kind of reminded me of, like, how complimentary he was of me, and, like, I fell back into that a little bit, and I wish I hadn't of. But I was just, like, in a weird place. I was separated, and I was like, whatever. Like, this guy's nice to me, and it feels good. The dinner thing, I. I understand how that looks, and I. I wish I wouldn't have done it, but in my head, we're filming this show. We're waiting for the results, and they want the results on camera, and they're gonna come while we're at dinner. He had to be there. Like, there's a part of it that's like. It's part of the production. Like, you know, like, not that, like, they asked me to do it by any means, but I was, like, it part of the story that we need to find out together what the results are. So it just made sense. Plus, the girls and I all wanted to, like, grill him about Demi. And at that dinner, that's what we did. That whole, like, hour and a half, we were there. It was like. We were just like, what happened with her? What happened with her? Tell us the truth. And that was the only time we were gonna get to the bottom of it, so. So for me, it just made sense. But also with the lie detector results, I wanted to talk about that a little bit, because I passed the most important one, which was the sex question, but I failed the two. And I explained it in the show, but I think they cut it out where it said, did you ever lie about Marciano? And I said, no, and that was a lie. And then it said, did you lie about Demi? And I said, no, and that was a lie. And the reason was because in the moment, I was like, I'm telling the truth. Everything's on the table now. Like, I'm not lying anymore, but I forgot I hid my affair for six months. So I definitely lied about Marcia. And then with Demi, I hid her secrets for a while, and I lied about what really happened in Italy. And with Marciano. And I. I was taking her side in season two on that, and I lied for her. So I wasn't thinking past tense. I was thinking current. And I think that's why it came up as a lie.

A (82:28)

So it was like a legit lie detector test.

B (82:30)

Oh, it was crazy. Like, they hook you up. Your arm goes numb for five minutes because you have to sit still, and it's putting a blood pressure cuff on you. You have ropes and chains. It was the scariest thing I've ever done. Like, even though I knew I wasn't gonna lie. Like, you start to question yourself and your heartbeats because you're, like, being filmed.

E (82:47)

And it is my name. I actually don't know.

B (82:48)

Literally, I'm like, did I. I don't know. Like, it was scary.

E (82:51)

How deep were your feelings for Marciano.

A (82:54)

At, like, the height of this?

B (82:57)

I don't feel like I, like, fell in love with him by any means, but I definitely entertained it. And I was really happy to just be talking to someone who understood. I didn't talk to my friends and family about my dynamic with Jordan because they all knew. But I was really trying to keep it hidden. Cause I didn't know how to get out, and so I didn't know how to go vent and then stay. So I told Marciano about it, and he knew. So I felt like I had someone to confide in, and it was someone who was complimentary to me, so it just felt nice to have that. So I think a lot of it was just me looking for, like, solace and comfort in someone, and it made me feel like there were feelings there. Looking back, I. It wasn't real at all. Especially if he could go so easily, lie about me.

E (83:35)

Yeah.

B (83:35)

I was like, whoa, I can't believe you did that. Cause I did think we cared about each other.

E (83:39)

Right.

A (83:39)

Do you feel like you would have.

E (83:41)

Talked about this on camera had Marciano not told Leila?

B (83:45)

Yes. Maybe not, like, just out of the blue willingly, you know? Like, maybe if it had gotten to a point because Jordan and I were clearly struggling with the affair, if it had gotten to a point where we were going to get divorced, then, yeah, I was probably going to talk about it. But, no, I don't think I ever would have come out and just been like, by the way, guess what? I did. I wanted that secret to go to the grave. Was.

E (84:06)

And were the two of you committed on being like, yes, we're dealing with this internally. Like, we don't need to make this a part of.

B (84:12)

Yeah.

A (84:12)

Our show.

B (84:13)

Yeah. He. He especially did not want anyone to know. No friends, no family. My sisters knew because they were in Vegas with us when he found out. So they knew, but they didn't tell anyone. And they knew for six months, and they knew we were struggling, and that was about it. But he did not want anyone to know. So when I called him, you guys hear? He was like, come home. Like, you're quitting the show. Like, he was like, there's no way we're talking about this. Wow. So it took the emotions that to die down for him to be like, okay, well, they already filmed Layla and Marciano talking. She's already confronted you on camera. So if we don't share our story, they're going to tell it for us. Yeah. So, like, if we ran away at that point, it wouldn't have served us. So.

E (84:47)

Yeah.

B (84:47)

And for me, I'm an open book. Like, it's so embarrassing to sit and talk about all this and, like, admit the mistakes I've made. But, like, I. I just don't hide from things. Like, I have no filter, good or bad, and I'm just gonna say it how it is. And that was my plan from the beginning. As soon as she told me, I was like, okay, I'm gonna talk about.

A (85:02)

About it.

E (85:03)

And then your sisters witnessed him finding out.

B (85:07)

Yeah.

E (85:08)

Have you talked to them about, like, that night, what they remember from that night, their point of view?

B (85:12)

Yeah. They saw the whole thing go down with, like, the yelling and the screaming in the phone. And then Jordan ran away with my phone, and we didn't know where he went. So they were with me during that. And that's when I broke down to them. And I was like, it's been abusive. And they were like, we know. Like. Like, not that I had to tell them. They saw it. So they were like. Like, they didn't even wanna leave me alone with him that night. They were like, you can't be alone with him. And they ended up doing it. Cause he had calmed down. But, like, they knew. And the. The next few months, like, they checked in on me. They knew we were working through things. I didn't tell them how bad it was, though. Like, I just said, we're working through it. It's getting better. I just pulled that tactic. Cause I'm like, I cannot tell anyone he's blackmailing me. Because then he'll blackmail me and do it. So I felt really stuck. I could not tell a soul. And I had to lie to my sisters pretty much and say we were fine. Because. Because if I told them or it got out or I did anything, he would have released the text. So it was hard. Yeah.

E (86:02)

I mean, and then we see the scene of you telling Macy and Michaela, and you tell them, like, I understand if you don't ever want to be my friend again.

B (86:10)

Yeah.

E (86:11)

What did that mean to you? For them to be like, we love you. Like, not okay, but we love you and we're here for you, and we're going to support you through this. Like, what was that?

B (86:19)

I'm going to cry talking about them. My Friendships in the group have meant so much to me. I would not have been able to get through season three and, like, this trial in my life without them. I remember being so scared because the Minky event happened the night before, and they knew I just never came into the party. And they were like, where? Where is she? And the next day I knew I had to tell them. And I was so nervous, and I was so scared that they weren't going to want to be my friend, because, first of all, Marciano's gross and everyone hates him. And they were. I just think they were going to be shocked and. And just to know that I lied to everyone for so long. I was just so terrified that they were going to think differently of me. And of course they questioned, like, the truth because Marciano said we slept together. I think anyone in their right mind would be like, we have to know what really happened. But Macy and Michaela were like, my rocks throughout the whole season. I just, like, would not have gotten through my separation without them. They were with me every night, and I love them so much. And the other girls too. Miranda, Layla, Jen, Taylor. It was like, I love season three, even though it was so hard for me. When I look back and I watch it, it was actually, like, one of the coolest times of my life too, for some weird reason, because it was like such a sisterhood. And Whitney and Demi were in mom talk, and at the time, and it was just us girls. It was me, Miranda, Layla, Taylor, Michaela, and Macy. And they all rallied around me and they really helped me get through it. And I just am so grateful for, like, the bonds we created during that time, because going through something like that with someone, like, really just, like, cements that relationship. And now we're all so close because of it.

A (87:47)

It.

B (87:47)

But Macy, Michaela especially, just really helped me get through it. Taylor as well, I don't think you even saw a lot of it. I think you saw a lot of her, like, questioning me, but she was really there for me. Like, there were nights we would stay up, like, talking on the phone or voice memoing me, and she was helping me through it. And she was giving me advice because she's been through this in the public eye, you know, being a cheater and having things come out. And she really helped me through it.

E (88:10)

What was like, a piece of advice that Taylor gave you that stuck with.

B (88:13)

You, to own it, don't lie about anything, because it will eventually come out. Just stay strong. It's gonna get better. Obviously, Taylor was going through hard things at the time as well. And that's why when I found out about what Dakota did towards the end of the season, I had to tell Taylor. That's why I was like, there's no world where she can't know because she had helped me so much at that point that I was like, I have to tell her. Like, I can't look her in the eyes and lie to her. So we. We kind of. We have this relationship now where she goes through something, I go through something, and we're helping each other back and forth, forth, But Taylor and I's past mimic each other a lot. We've been through a lot of the same things, so her help meant the world to me too. Like, Taylor Macy, Michaela are like my rider days. And I'm just so grateful.

E (88:50)

It was, honestly, it was a beautiful scene to watch of friends being true friends. I think it's hard to come by these days, especially as adults. We all make mistakes, and the only way through these mistakes is accountability. And you have shown that that to the very end. And I really appreciate you being so vulnerable with me. I love you so much. I think you're such a great person. You're such a great mom.

B (89:13)

Thank you.

E (89:14)

I'm. I'm rooting for you and Jordan to move into a better place.

B (89:18)

Thank you. I appreciate that. And thank you for giving me the space to talk about it, because obviously it's such a situ. Like a difficult situation and a sensitive topic, but I feel so comfortable here, so I really appreciate it.

E (89:28)

Is there anything you're worried that Jordan might say?

B (89:30)

No. I mean, we're at a point now where we have laid it all out on camera. There's a lot you guys didn't see. But, like, we talked about everything. There's nothing to hide now. And this podcast is, like, our time to share our story. So we both agreed to just lay it out there. And I know he has things to say about me, too, that, like, all own up to and same here, like, with him. So. Yeah, I just think that we both agreed to do that because if we held back here, like, what's the point? Yeah. You know, like, why even do it so well?

E (89:54)

That will do it for me and Jesse next week. We'll have Nick and Jordan have a little man to man, and then we'll all four get together and see where it goes.

A (90:03)

Sa.