E1040 – Going Deeper with Jessi And Jordan

Summary

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The Viall Files: E1040 – Going Deeper with Jessi and Jordan

Podcast Host: Nick Viall
Guests: Jessi & Jordan (reality TV couple), Natalie Joy, Mary
Date: November 26, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this poignant "Going Deeper" episode of The Viall Files, Nick Viall sits down with reality TV couple Jessi and Jordan for a raw and revealing exploration of their relationship’s struggles and growth, centering around emotional abuse, infidelity, healing, and accountability. The conversation—starting with Nick’s signature “How’s your heart?” question—dives into heavy topics including emotional triggers, cycles of hurt and healing, the challenges of public scrutiny, shifting family roles, and their ongoing journey through therapy and co-parenting, all against the backdrop of an upcoming season where their issues are laid bare for a reality TV audience.

Both Jessi and Jordan reflect on their past behaviors, own up to their mistakes, and express their hopes for the future, with Nick and the rest of the “household” offering tough but empathetic questions. The discussion is candid, sometimes uncomfortable, and ultimately revolves around the question of whether true change—and forgiveness—is possible after deep hurt.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Holiday Memories and Lighthearted Start

Timestamps: 02:18 – 07:57

• The episode opens with a warm, nostalgic conversation about holiday traditions, Starbucks holiday drinks, and family moments.
• Each co-host and guest shares their favorite memories—baking cookies, cinnamon rolls, neighborhood light tours, and cozying up with seasonal drinks.
• Brief, lighthearted banter sets a communal family tone before delving into heavier topics.

“It tastes like Christmas.” – Natalie (02:41)

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2. Nick and Jordan: A Deep Dive Into Relationship Issues

Timestamps: 08:05 – 37:45

2.1. Processing the Reality TV Season

• Nick asks how Jordan is doing emotionally—Jordan responds he’s “better than he was. Still healing.” (08:17)
• Jordan explains the pain of reliving their relationship’s issues during the filming and when watching the season together, acknowledging “it was emotional, man... having to see myself react the way that I did... it’s hurtful, it’s painful to see yourself in that light.” (08:35)

2.2. Accountability, Shame, and Emotional Abuse

• Jordan admits to previously being more worried about public shame over the affair than his own part in causing pain. He acknowledges his controlling behavior, name-calling, and anger contributed to Jesse’s actions—a dynamic highlighted on the show.
• Jordan describes marriage issues as “like an onion... had to peel those layers back” after separation, realizing how his trauma blinded him to Jesse’s pain. (12:35)
• Nick probes Jordan’s self-awareness, pointing out the jarring nature of Jesse’s emotional abuse claims—Jordan concedes he was emotionally abusive prior to the affair, especially during times when he felt his “needs weren’t being met.” (15:51)
• Jordan explains his alter ego “Frank” as the side of him prone to anger and aggression, noting that “it’s not an excuse, but during those times... that was me screaming inside, hey, I want to be treated like a partner.” (15:51)

“Looking back and watching that back, it was really eye opening... There were a lot of scenes that didn’t make the cut that, you know, honestly were pretty bad, you know, to be forthcoming…and about your behavior? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.” – Jordan (10:25)

2.3. Origins of Behavior, Masculinity, and Family Dynamics

• Jordan recounts his upbringing in a male household, early marriage, and unresolved “feminine wounds” stemming from his first wife’s choice of faith over him, saying therapy has helped make that connection. (19:35)
• He identifies issues with aggression, feeling emasculated when Jessi’s career flourished, and resenting his own career sacrifices. (26:30)
• He admits he felt replaced and unappreciated, and wishes they’d been able to better communicate needs before things spiraled.

2.4. Changing as a Partner and Parent

• Jordan has shifted to being a more hands-on dad and supporting Jesse by taking on more at home, describing realization that “there’s seasons to this” and he now cherishes the time with their children, recognizing he might otherwise have missed out. (32:15)
• He admits awareness of the harm that exposing their children to their conflicts may have caused: “I think the best thing that I can do is just show them now how they should treat their mom and... women.” (32:24)

“That’s the whole point of me coming today.” – Jordan, about showing he is working on himself for listeners/the public (36:27)

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3. Roundtable: Accountability, Public Narratives, and Moving Forward

Timestamps: 42:25 – 84:46

3.1. Jesse’s “Would You Want Your Daughter to Marry Him?” Answer

• The group revisits a controversial earlier moment where Jesse said she wouldn’t want her daughter to marry someone like Jordan. Jordan initially felt betrayed and angry but recognizes now that it was truthful to how he was treating her and “shouldn’t have responded the way I did.” (44:47)

3.2. Work, Roles, and Identity in Marriage

• Jesse and Jordan discuss issues of work and identity: Jesse explains her reluctance to involve Jordan in her family’s business, citing his tendency toward controlling behavior, while Jordan says he has learned to step back and support from afar. (56:07)
• Both express the challenge of balancing public, professional, and private roles as reality TV personalities.

3.3. Therapy and Attachment Styles

• Through therapy, they’ve identified their attachment styles: Jordan as anxious, Jesse as avoidant. Jesse admits to emotional numbness as a learned defense—she could “compartmentalize” and put on a happy face despite daily fighting. (63:28)
• Jordan says improvement has been slow but real: “It’s not perfect. I’m not perfect… But I love that the effort is there.” (62:26)

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4. Affair, Forgiveness, and Honest Reflection

Timestamps: 58:32 – 79:49

• They clarify the affair happened during a separation, a narrative that Jordan admits he initially encouraged out of embarrassment.
• Nick pushes Jordan on whether he’s truly forgiven Jesse, and whether he’s able to not keep “bringing up the affair” as a means of control moving forward. (77:13)
• The hosts challenge Jordan to not couch accountability with excuses and for both of them to avoid keeping score of past wounds.
• Jesse shares that, while she sees improvement, any return to old behaviors would be her breaking point: “I was like, I’m one foot out, and if this happens again... I’m done. He knows that.” (70:53)

“I agree with that. I am disgusted. I should have never done it. There’s no excuse for it. But...there’s also no excuse for what she did.” – Jordan (78:34)

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5. Repercussions, Public Scrutiny & The Path Forward

Timestamps: 68:10 – End

• With the new season’s release imminent, the couple prepares for potential public backlash. Jesse commits to not defending herself from justifiable criticism and hopes Jordan will respond to his critics with “I did do that. I messed up.”
• The group discusses the wider issue of believing women and the complexity of navigating public narratives, especially when serious allegations surface among cast members.
• Both agree they’re not fully “done” bringing up past wounds, but that therapy has helped slow the cycles (“That’s what therapy’s for, right?” – Jordan, 82:43).
• Nick impresses upon Jordan the importance of never reverting to his previous treatment of Jesse, both as a partner and as a role model: “You’re in a position now...to be a good role model...There is no justification.” (83:38)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Relationship Repair:
  “I felt like I was dying inside because I couldn’t talk to anyone about this because the risk of it getting out was something I was like completely petrified of… I think she was petrified of it as well.” — Jordan (10:25)

• On Public Scrutiny and Role Modeling:
  “You are going to be hurt in the future. Jesse is going to hurt you in the future. You're going to hurt Jesse. But I do think we can draw a line in the sand by how we speak to our partners.” — Nick (84:32)

• On Taking Accountability:
  “Well, I hope that my presence here today shows that I'm willing to take accountability and that you can make mistakes and you can grow from them and you don't necessarily have to be perfect.” — Jordan (36:27)

• On Therapy’s Role:
  “It's not perfect. I'm not perfect, guys...but I love that the effort is there...” — Jordan (62:26)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Holiday Memories & Warm Up: 02:18–07:57
• Nick/Jordan One-on-One (Affair, Healing, Accountability): 08:05–37:45
• Roundtable – Public Narrative, Roles, & Forgiveness: 42:25–63:28
• Affair, Reparations, Hurting Each Other: 58:32–79:49
• Audience Backlash & Role Modeling Discussion: 83:38–End

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Episode Takeaways

• Raw and honest: Both Jessi and Jordan are open about their flaws and acknowledge their mutual wounds.
• Progress, not Perfection: The couple is still working through deep-seated issues, but therapy and awareness have led to meaningful, though incomplete, change.
• Accountability is Central: The importance of taking full ownership of one's actions, especially for Jordan, is repeatedly emphasized.
• The Danger of Keeping Score: The couple’s progress is hampered when “the affair” or “the years of emotional abuse” are weaponized in conflict.
• Public vs. Private: Reality TV brings unique challenges in managing not just personal healing, but public narratives—and the effect on their kids is always in mind.

In Nick’s words:
“I just think, you know, you’re in a position now as a guy, as a public figure, to be a good role model, not only to your daughters, but, like, for a lot of guys out there watching. And I think there’s just too many situations where men justify speaking to women a certain way. And I really feel like there is no justification.” (83:38)

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Overall, this episode stands out for its vulnerability, nuanced discussion of relationship repair post-betrayal, and a public reckoning with toxic patterns—offering hope, but also a candid picture of how hard earned healthy change can be.

Transcript

[Natalie]

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[Jordan]

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[Natalie]

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[Jordan]

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[Natalie]

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[Jordan]

I have to say, every time I.

[Jesse]

Drink a peppermint mocha around the holidays, it always reminds me of when my family after Thanksgiving, the Friday after Thanksgiving, we always go downtown Savannah. We walk the little Riverside market.

[Jordan]

There's always a Starbucks there. We like, go wait in line. Yeah, you get your hot peppermint mocha.

[Jesse]

It's cold, you're cozy, you're with family. It's full fun. It's one of my favorite traditions.

[Natalie]

Delicioso. It tastes like Christmas.

[Jordan]

It does. It's the most nostalgic feeling ever to like it. Be chilly outside. You have a hot Starbucks holiday drink and you're like, with your family, there's nothing better.

[Natalie]

Well, we love family time with a warm drink in our hands. Share the season with the peppermint mocha or caramel brulee latte from Starbucks.

[Jordan]

You're crazy.

[Natalie]

Well, welcome back to part two of Going Deeper with Jesse and Jordan. We will get to Jesse and Jordan momentarily. We're going to kick things off with.

[Nick]

My conversation with Jordan.

[Natalie]

Obviously, if you haven't listened to part one.

[Nick]

Pause.

[Jesse]

Go back, go back last week.

[Nick]

Last week it kicks off with me, Jesse and Natalie. And then Natalie had a little one on one sit down with Jesse. And this is part two where we have me and Jordan and then the four of us.

[Natalie]

And then the four of us, we talk about it all. But because it's the holiday season, Thanksgiving's tomorrow. And since we're all in the holiday.

[Jordan]

Spirit, before we kick things off, we wanted to take a moment and thank the household for listening. We know a lot of you guys listen to this show with your family and a lot of you guys are probably holding a Starbucks holiday beverage in your hands right now, just like us. So before we get to our special guest, Jesse and Jordan, we wanted to take a moment and talk about our favorite holiday memories.

[Mary]

Yeah, Nick, what's your, what's your favorite holiday memory?

[Nick]

One of my favorite holiday memories has always been when my family gets together to decorate Christmas cookies. Still a holiday tradition. As Natalie knows, we do it every year.

[Jordan]

How many cookies is that?

[Natalie]

Oh, my mom makes so many. She makes gingerbread cookies and the her.

[Nick]

Spin wheel, like black and white cookies. She also makes these really great, like, chow mein noodles, like the crunchy and pour chocolate over it.

[Natalie]

And then she makes Christmas wreaths based.

[Nick]

Out of like marshmallow. It's like marshmallows. And the cornflakes.

[Natalie]

Cornflakes, yes.

[Jordan]

Your sweet tooth is. You remember nothing.

[Natalie]

All Those cookies.

[Jordan]

But you remember every cookie your mother has ever made.

[Nick]

And then a peppermint mocha.

[Natalie]

It pairs well with all the Christmas cookies.

[Jesse]

My favorite is definitely making homemade cinnamon.

[Jordan]

Rolls and, like, waking up in the.

[Jesse]

Morning, going to Starbucks, getting a caramel brulee latte. Nick's always been a peppermint mocha kind of guy, so we. We get one of each. We come home, we make homemade cinnamon rolls, and that's what we have for breakfast. They pair so perfectly together.

[Jordan]

And it's just like being with the family.

[Jesse]

Baking, cooking, drinking coffee.

[Jordan]

It's just like.

[Jesse]

Nothing's more wholesome, you know, it's just like cozy vibes. It's cozy vibes.

[Nick]

Did you play much in the snow in your life, being a Floridian? No, I didn't.

[Natalie]

Well, I did.

[Nick]

And there is nothing better than coming.

[Natalie]

Outside of the cold, whether you were.

[Nick]

Sledding down a hill, building a snowman, a snowball fight.

[Jesse]

You know, you mentioned the caramel brulee.

[Jordan]

Latte, and it's so fun that you said that, because that reminds me of my favorite Christmas memories is going and checking out all of the Christmas decorations with my friends in the car, grabbing the caramel brulee latte and putting on the Christmas tunes while we're going through Candy Cane Lane. 100%. Driving around listening to Christmas music with.

[Jesse]

A hot Starbucks holiday drink is, like, next level. You can't. There's nothing better to do.

[Jordan]

Have you seen those neighborhoods where they, like, fight with the lights or where they compete with which house has the best lights?

[Natalie]

They wouldn't be fighting if they're all drinking Starbucks.

[Jordan]

That's true.

[Mary]

They would just be happy and together.

[Jordan]

I'm fighting with everyone in my neighborhood.

[Jesse]

But it's just because no one else.

[Jordan]

Has put up their lights yet. And I'm like, guys, what are you doing?

[Mary]

It's time to say it's because no one else wanted to get Starbucks with you.

[Jesse]

Well, that would never be the case.

[Jordan]

That's true.

[Nick]

What about you, Mary?

[Mary]

Okay, well, some of my favorite memories with my family was always, so my dad, obviously, he's a pastor, and so he would be gone Christmas morning because he would be doing church. And my siblings are a lot older. They're all in relationships and stuff or, like, have complicated family, and so they wouldn't be there in the morning. So a lot of the times in the morning on Christmas, it's just like, me and my mom, and so we'll, like, go get Starbucks. And her, like, favorite Starbucks beverages are always like, The Christmas ones.

[Jordan]

Do you sit inside or do you.

[Jesse]

Do drive through and sit in your car?

[Mary]

We'll do drive through because we're always, like, really, really trying to get back quick because she always wants to watch It's a Wonderful Life. It's her favorite movie, and we watch it every single Christmas. And she talks through the entire thing, and I just sit there and drink my coffee. She says the same things every year, and it just always, like, warms my heart and. Yeah, so when I drink a peppermint milk, it always makes me think of my mom.

[Natalie]

As you guys know, I'm from Wisconsin, so outdoor winter activities, whether it's sledding.

[Nick]

Making snowmen, or having snowball fights, it's always fun to play outside in the snow.

[Natalie]

Snow forts.

[Jordan]

Yes.

[Nick]

Do you ever, like when the snow.

[Natalie]

Truck would come and there'd be mounds.

[Nick]

Of snow and you would make you. You never. That's right.

[Jordan]

You guys are all from Alabama.

[Jesse]

But I was right.

[Natalie]

I didn't know there was snow. We would play outside for hours. We still play outside. It gets real cold.

[Nick]

And we'd come in and have a nice hot cup of coffee from Starbucks.

[Jesse]

A nice hot peppermint mocha if we were lucky.

[Nick]

And I often was.

[Jordan]

I love that it's that time of year.

[Jesse]

Whether you're wrapping gifts, spending time with your family, or enjoying the seasons changing.

[Jordan]

Share the season with the holiday beverages from Starbucks.

[Nick]

All right, now it's part two of Jesse and Jordan going deeper. Jordan, welcome to the show.

[Jordan]

Thanks for having me.

[Nick]

I often start these interviews by asking our guests how their heart is. So it feels, like, appropriate in this conversation. But how is your heart these days?

[Jordan]

Better than it was.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Jordan]

Better than it was. Still healing.

[Nick]

Still healing. Yeah. Okay. What has this season been like? Have you watched. Have you been able to watch this season? Okay. What was it like for you to live back this entire season? Obviously, very emotional one, I imagine, for both you and Jesse.

[Jordan]

Oh, man. You know, Jesse watched all the episodes first, and she, you know, binged them over a couple days, and we had decided that we were going to watch them individually. And then she had watched him, and I asked her how it was, and after she had watched it back, she's like, hey, I think that we should watch it together. And I was like, okay. And she's like, and if you feel in, you know, any sort of way, you know, we can stop or whatever it might be. And we watched it all the way through, and it was emotional, man. You know, having to relive that and see Some of the things firsthand, right. The trip to St. George and hyper focusing on specific details that went down and having to see myself react the way that I did to certain things, it's hurtful, it's painful to see yourself in that light. And it's painful to see the most important person in your life relive those.

[Nick]

Moments too, specifically, because obviously we had a chance to talk to Jesse and now you spoke with Jesse and you know, throughout the season and obviously a part of this conversation, Jesse was pretty forthcoming about obviously your guys relationship. Not just what we saw in season three, but everything leading up to that. And you know, Jesse has said that. Everything that she said to us, you know, you guys have. She said to you. You guys have communicated. But she obviously used some pretty direct language in describing your treatment towards Jesse. Watching season three back, how eye opening was it to you in terms of how you've treated Jesse throughout your relationship?

[Jordan]

Looking back and watching that back, it was really eye opening to see that. And you know, obviously when we are filming, we record hundreds of hours and very, very little makes the cut. You know, there were a lot of scenes that didn't make the cut that, you know, honestly were pretty bad, you know, to be forthcoming and about your behavior. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And through the entirety of filming season two, I. We were going through all of this and I was doing. We were both doing everything we could to keep a lid on it. And I was. I felt like I was dying inside because I couldn't talk to anyone about this because the risk of it getting out was something I was like completely petrified of. And I think she was petrified of it as well.

[Nick]

Were you more worried of it getting out and hearing about what the public had to say about your relationship or you, or was it more hurtful for what Jesse did?

[Jordan]

Both. I think during that six months, I was probably coming at it from more of a selfish standpoint. I think that I was so embarrassed and felt a lot of shame if people knew what my wife had done. And I wasn't even worried about what I had done to put her in a place where she felt that that was a need. Does that make sense? Not a need or maybe drove her to a. Drove her to a place where she could even be in that place.

Yeah.

[Nick]

Once you came to that realization, I mean, I guess at what point did you have, I guess an aha moment in terms of realizing how you've treated Jesse? Like, what was the biggest moment? Because you know, honestly, it's hearing Jesse speak her Truth and share her story. And watching this season back, it is. It's definitely jarring for the audience to see, even more jarring to hear. And it seems surprising that you wouldn't have noticed. But, like, I guess, was there a moment that really, like, oh, my God, I can't believe I acted this way.

[Jordan]

I would say that that slap in the face that you're talking about was like, the day that we separated, that was the biggest aha moment. But I would say it was like an onion, you know, Like, I had to peel those layers back over the next week, two weeks. You know, I don't know if you've ever felt this way, but for me, it was the whole time I was so hurt and so traumatized by what happened that I couldn't even see my wife. I couldn't see her pain or the way that she felt because I was so upset and distraught about what she had done that it only got. It only magnified the issues that we had.

[Nick]

Did you ever have a moment once you became, I guess, self aware about your behavior, about the pain you caused Jesse in the years leading up to this moment? Because whether it was from Jesse's words kind of putting her down, calling her names, speaking in a very aggressive tone, you know, what was it like? Or did you have kind of a realization of all those moments of speaking to Jesse this way that, again, she refers to as emotional abuse?

[Jordan]

Yeah, I think in those moments, I felt. Are you talking just. So I'm very specific, at what point are you talking about. Are you talking about prior to the affair? After I found out of the affair?

[Nick]

After really, just prior to the affair? Right. Because I think. I mean, at least for me, like, the hardest part, you know, to hear the hardest part of Jesse's story is again, like, we've heard Jesse on the show, even when we got to speak with her, when Natalie spoke with her, you know, Jesse, you could tell she's a woman who wants to take accountability. She obviously is embarrassed of her actions. She's apologized, obviously, to you. She feels the shame. And no doubt, I'm sure, is worried about what people are gonna say when this gets out, but you can. You know, I felt this empathy for her because, yeah, there's certainly no excuse for what she did, but there are often reasons. Right. You can have reasons for what you do. Doesn't justify it, but it really seems like hearing Jesse's side of the story and just honestly seeing some of your reactions, you kind of see it, right? On season three, this kind of anger that you have when you get triggered. And it seems like this was, according to Jesse, you know, a behavior that was fairly consistent in the past few years leading up to this. And I'm just like wondering, is that. Do you. Do you realize that? Do you agree with that?

[Jordan]

No.

[Nick]

And I guess how do you feel knowing, you know, that you've been labeled this or what does it mean to you in terms of like, maybe how you failed Jesse as a wife? Because I feel like so much of like what we heard, heard you say in season three was like reminding Jesse you had the affair, you had the affair, and really kind of putting it on her to almost justify your anger. But we now know that this is something like, prior to the affair, the thing that hurt her the most is something that she had to experience with you for so long.

[Jordan]

So something that Jesse and I have talked, you know, we've been doing lots of therapy for like the last, you know, it's been almost a year. You know, one of the things that, you know, our relationship got to a place after the affair where all of our issues were magnified. Right. And before that we had issues. And it's not an excuse, but during those times, it felt like my needs weren't being met. And that's the way that I would come out, that's the way I would show my Frank right is I would get pissed off and I would try to control because that was me screaming inside, hey, like, I want to be treated like a partner. And you're always busy doing all these other things and appeasing everyone but me and you're people pleasing all these other people and these other relationships. That was my excuse and my thought process then, right, Was for me, it was a cry for help and it was a cry for attention. And I've obviously learned a lot about myself through lots and lots of therapy. And it's not that that part of you just disappears. It's not that part of you just goes away. It's just deciding that that's not who you want to be. And it's not letting things that trigger you expose a side of you that you don't want to have. There are times where things come up and you guys will see things in the future where life's not perfect. And we've. And we've been doing our best to look inward towards one another and to try and work on our relationship because we have a beautiful family and kids that we want to raise and do this thing. It's been really hard.

[Nick]

You referenced Frank, Jesse referenced this Kind of alter ego of, I guess, what, you're therapist.

[Jordan]

Jesse's got one too. We haven't labeled her yet.

[Nick]

Okay, but focusing on you for now, where do you think that comes from? And I guess the reason I ask is, you know, we all have our flaws. So I'm not, you know, but I am. You know, I had great role models in my parents and specifically my dad. And, you know, I was raised in terms of how to speak to women. And I obviously had a great role model in my father. So, you know, it is tough to, you know, in general, I'm very critical of men who speak a certain way to women and name call and it's, you know, it's just tough to hear. But like, we're not to pass the blame on to anyone else. But, you know, I'm, to be honest, like, sometimes very surprised that men can speak to women a certain way in such a degreeing way or name call. But where, where do you feel like that came from?

[Jordan]

You know, that's a. That's a good question. I don't know if you know much about my past, but I had my first daughter when I was 18 years old, and in Utah, it's very much a taboo sub. Like, sex is something you don't talk about. When we'd have maturation, they would say, they would basically talk about sperm traveling to the egg, but they didn't tell you where that came from or how that happens or anything. They'd say, oh, and if your parents want to tell you about what sexual intercourse is, they can. And I remember thinking, like, what is this, an alien story? Like, what did you guys just tell me? And so I essentially lost my virginity and had my daughter at 18 years old and basically had a shotgun wedding. And very soon after we got married, we realized she wanted to do the whole Mormon route. And that was something that I tried to do. And I just could not get myself to that place. I just didn't believe in it. Like, I never had that.

[Nick]

Your first wife?

[Jordan]

Yes. I never had that, like, burning in my bosom, you know, Like, I never, like, believed in it. I wanted to with like everything in me, but I just could never get to that place. And because of that, we decided to not be together anymore. And I remember feeling so upset that I let my daughter down because she would never have, like, a normal upbringing because her parents aren't together. Right.

Even if I get remarried or her.

Mom gets remarried, it's still like a split life. Does that make sense? And I think it created a I think it created a little bit of a feminine wound, honestly.

[Nick]

What do you mean by that?

[Jordan]

I think it created a wound in the place that was like she wasn't okay with me not having the same religious beliefs as her, if that makes sense. So she chose church over me. Right. And I think it created this wound. As a matter of fact, I know it did because I've been doing a lot of therapy and I think since then I've had a lot of trust issues with women. And I think that's what made what happened with the affair so much worse is because of those, those feminine wounds. And you know, it's one of those things and I think that it created a feminine wound and I think that's where that comes from. You know, I grew up with all brothers and you know, we didn't have, we didn't really have girls in the house growing up much. You know, we. I don't know, I don't know if your family situation growing up, but with all boys, we were always shit talking one another. And even, even my mom growing up was like very much like, very like, like we joke around with her and like, like she was very much like a boy mom, if that makes sense. And like my family is all very aggressive, like the way we communicate.

Right.

And it's not something that. I think that that combined with the feminine moon is what kind of caused things to go where they went.

[Nick]

Thinking back to your past relationship, do you feel like you like if we spoke to your ex wife, would she relate to Jesse and how you spoke to her in terms of how you treated Jesse?

[Jordan]

My relationship was never like what it was with Jesse. That was also like I was 18 years old. That was 13 years ago.

[Nick]

So you would you never like, you never name called or never name called.

[Jordan]

Okay.

But to answer the question, yes, I think that that aggression was there.

[Nick]

So what changed with Jesse that caused you to kind of turn into this kind of.

[Jordan]

I think that what caused it for me. And again, this is not to create excuses, but just, just to have it be out there is. It's just not feeling like a priority. It's just not feeling like that that love was shown. Like, you know, it felt like it was a cry for attention, a cry for help because it's like you're over here, you know, even. It only got worse once the show came about.

Right.

It's. It was just not feeling like being enough.

[Nick]

Did you ever like just sit Jesse down and communicate that with her other than doing it the way you did?

[Jordan]

A lot of times. Yeah. We were in therapy and there were things that she wanted me to change, and I would make a lot of those changes. And like, what it would be like, you know, not being so aggressive about things or not being controlling, you know, and control for me is like, when I don't feel like I'm in control, it feels like I'm powerless. Right. And those are all things that I've again learned in therapy. But I would make a lot of these changes, and then Jesse would be, like, frozen, like, stuck. Not because she's like, out to get me or anything like that. It's just sometimes in those moments, I think that it was hard for her to change learned habits. Like, Jesse's a workaholic.

[Nick]

And was your change conditional?

[Jordan]

I think at that time. It was at that time for sure. I think I hit a point when I kind of just like, threw my hands up in there and I'm like, why do I want to make all these efforts if you're not gonna meet me with a spec at the time?

[Nick]

Do you see now why? I guess. Cause when I hear that, it's just like, if I'm you, I would just wanna be known as a guy who would never speak to women that way, or certainly my partner 100%. And regardless of how Natalie might act or whatever, you know, if Natalie did something to hurt me, I would just wanna never treat my partner that way and hold myself accountable, you know, so that. Yeah, I wouldn't want that to ever be the case. So, yeah. Looking back, what do you wish you would have done differently? Or do you wish you would have given Jesse more time to maybe adjust?

[Jordan]

Because I'll be honest, like, I gave it a lot of time. It was very much, you know, there was definitely something underlying that she needed to work on, and she's been working on those things. Those things, like what? Oh, one of the things I'm sure I hope she talked to you guys about, and I hope I don't get in trouble for this, but, you know, she has a bad people pleasing problem. And I think you guys see that a lot throughout the show, you know, where, you know, you see like, what Demi did to her, and she continued to let her back in after horrible things. And I think that people pleasing can. Can definitely cause, like, there's. She'll people please someone for so long before, you know, they'll burn her. And I think that's kind of what you guys have seen, like, meaning, like some, you know, other relationships or other.

Things going on might be more important.

Than what really matters, and that's your family, you know?

[Nick]

Sure. I mean, I think a lot of people struggle with people pleasing. I guess my question to you is, let's say Jesse required some time to work on that. You know, maybe it took a couple years to really get out of that. You know, that kind of pattern of worrying about what people are thinking. Are you still capable of not justifying reacting to Jesse in the ways that you've reacted in the past?

[Jordan]

I think that I have done an excellent job and I'm very proud of the progress that I've made. And I would say that Jesse is also proud of the progress that I've made.

[Nick]

Yeah, she mentioned as much. You mentioned a lot of times in this season that you felt very emasculated. What does masculinity mean to you and what did you mean by that?

[Jordan]

Maybe that was. Maybe. I think it's still the right thought, but I think it was just the embarrassment. I think that, like, what happened, how it happened, who it happened with, is at the time, I was just. I was mortified. I think that I thought about it in a way that was like, well, what is that? How does that make me look as a man? That's what I meant by the emasculated feeling. Right. I wasn't so worried in the moment about what I had done to. To lead at that point. It was just selfishness.

Right.

So that's what I meant about being.

[Nick]

Do you think you felt emasculated in your relationship with Jesse prior to the emotional affair?

[Jordan]

Probably right before, maybe like the six months leading up to it.

How so?

One of the things the show doesn't really touch on is, you know, I was very successful in what I did before this. So I used to work for my friend's solar company out here in Southern California, made really good money, but it required me to spend 15, 16 weeks a year here, which is not very much considering how good the money was. And that was really tough for more. So my kids just because. Gone for a week and a half, back for a week, gone for two weeks, whatever it might be, specifically during the summertime mostly. And Jesse began to have, obviously, so much success even before the show that it didn't matter how much money I was making. It didn't make sense for me to be gone and to leave her while she's creating, building an empire when she needs help raising the kids. And, you know, I think that there was some resentment for sure. Having to give up my career working with my friends while she could Go build this empire, you know?

[Nick]

Why didn't you feel like you guys were building this together?

[Jordan]

Because she made it clear that it was not something we were building together, and I tried to actually do that.

[Nick]

How. So how did she make.

[Jordan]

How can I help you? She would. She would use things and say things to me at times that made me feel justified to act out the way that I did. She would say, like, this is my thing. You know, you go. You go do your own thing. She didn't want to build it together.

[Nick]

How'd that make you feel?

[Jordan]

Like a piece of shit.

[Nick]

And was that like, you. Did you leave that? Like, didn't you guys make that decision as a couple for you to stop working?

[Jordan]

For sure, we did. And I. And as hard as that was, I think what I was looking for in that moment was appreciation, you know, I know that must have been hard, but I appreciate you doing that for our family, you know, just something like that.

[Nick]

Did you feel emotionally abandoned by her?

[Jordan]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Prior to the affair.

Yeah.

[Nick]

Do you feel like Jesse understands that now?

[Jordan]

Oh, I think she's starting to understand it, but not fully.

[Nick]

And I guess what part of you. I mean, if you were trying to put yourself in Jesse's shoes and fully empathize with her point of view, can you see why she would have a hard time letting you in to, you know, do this thing together, you know, as a result of how you've spoken with her? Obviously, she's been married before, and there's just. In general, as a society, I think, you know, we don't give enough women credit for. For being successful entrepreneurs and things like that. So I guess just in general, do you feel like you could have done a better job even though you weren't getting what you needed from your wife in that moment to really try to empathize with her?

[Jordan]

Absolutely.

[Nick]

And just make her feel safe to eventually let you in?

[Jordan]

Absolutely. That's. That's. That's honestly where. Where I went wrong.

Right.

Was. Was not being patient with that and maybe not being explicit enough with what we want together and working towards that instead of acting out the way that it did.

[Nick]

So what are you doing now in your life to feel like you're doing your part to provide for your family?

[Jordan]

That's a great question. I never thought I would be a TV personality, or however you call it, reality TV person, so I'm not even close to as polished or as good as this as Jesse is. It doesn't even come like, I don't even come close. And I Think what I'm trying to do now is something that I actually haven't talked about, is the birth of dad talk essentially came off the heels of the affair. I didn't do much social media. As a matter of fact, I did almost nothing until the affair happened. And then I tried to use after that point, I said, I need to have my own thing, and if this is gonna be something that I can try to be closer to my wife and have something more in common. Like, that was the birth of dad talks genuinely. And that's why I tried to wrangle all the guys and all this. And as I got closer to a lot of the guys, it was hard to have them tell me what they were going through and not be able to feel like I can be honest or have someone to share this pain with. Sorry, I spaced your question.

[Nick]

What was your question?

[Jordan]

One more time.

[Nick]

Just how do you feel you can kind of support your family?

[Jordan]

So right now, you know, because of dad talk and stuff, like Jesse and I and myself, I've actually been doing some pretty cool brand deals and stuff. So as far as, like, financially, it helps, but, you know, Jesse's a killer business person. She's an entrepreneur.

[Nick]

Yeah. But I guess what I'm getting at, too, is outside of finances. Right. And maybe that's just our society, you know, whatever. But, like, how do you feel like you can step up as a father, as a man setting aside finances?

[Jordan]

That's what I've been doing is, you know, when Jesse's out here doing press in la, I'm at home with the kids, and, you know, I'm the one that's. That's doing a lot more of the load with the kids now. And there was a point in time when she asked me to do that, and I did not want that to be my role, like, as far as, like, the primary caregiver to the children. It just made me feel like that's.

Not what I wanted to do in life.

And the more I began to learn and understand that, it's not that I don't love spending time with my kids, but I just wanted to, like, go out and do things. I just. I grew up and I understood that that was never going to be the role that I played. But I also have also learned now that there's seasons to this, there's seasons in life, and I cherish and love that time that I've been able to spend with my kids. Because, you know, sometimes I honestly, like, look back and I don't think without something like this happening. Of course I wish it didn't happen. I don't think that there would have.

Been something like a catalyst like this.

That would have put me in a position to where I would have ever had that time with my kids like this, especially at their ages that they're at.

[Nick]

Speaking of your kids, Jesse mentioned that at times when you would have your outburst or say some of the emotionally abusive things that you said, that your children were present. How have you reflected on that? And are you worried about how they will see you as a partner and to your wife and as a father?

[Jordan]

Yeah, I would say that when those things would happen, it would be like Jesse and I in the closet and the kids in the room or something. And then they would come in, and then we'd be like, okay, we can't do this. So they would definitely hear it. And I honestly feel like they were at an age where they were probably starting to. To pick up on that. I think the best thing that I can do is just show them now how they should treat their mom and how they should treat, you know, how my son should treat women. I think that that's the best thing that I can do moving forward.

[Nick]

Watching the season, it seemed like. And we asked Jesse as much, but it kind of felt like you would bring up. You had the affair. You had the affair. There was that point. There was that scene where you almost kind of were. It seemed like putting Jesse in a corner was like, well, how are. What, you know, what are our kids gonna think when they react? Are you not gonna tell them? And then it was like, how are you gonna be accountable? And then she was like, well, I guess I'll tell them. And then it was like, well, I don't want you to do that, you know, because, like, you're really gonna tell our kids that you had. You cheated on me. And it really kind of felt like you wanted almost to punish her. Like, you wanted to feel like the good guy and she was the bad guy. Like, how do you want Jesse to be perceived this season?

[Jordan]

How do I want her to be perceived this season?

[Nick]

Yeah, like, you want her to watch this?

[Jordan]

I want my wife to have forgiveness or to be forgiven. I want my wife to succeed and be the star that she is. That's what I want for my wife. Maybe it didn't come across that way, but sometimes I think the hard thing is in that situation is it's like, decisions have consequences, and when you make poor decisions, it's hard at times. Not that it's an excuse, but it's hard at times not to, like, what are you thinking? Why in the world. I want you to be forgiven, and I want you to have redemption and move forward. But when you continue to make these poor decisions, it's hard to stand by and be like, good job, you know, or whatever it might be. That was how I was feeling in that moment.

[Nick]

Do you think she's continuing to make.

[Jordan]

Poor decisions as of now?

[Nick]

Sure.

[Jordan]

No. I mean, even if that was the case, I think there's a difference between, like, a poor decision like that and a poor decision like, I don't know, something else, you know?

[Nick]

Do you remember the scene I'm talking about where you were asking her about, like, how your kids are gonna find out?

[Jordan]

What are our kids?

[Nick]

Maybe you were just like, our kids are gonna find out. And, like, how are we gonna find out? And Jesse was like, we'll tell them.

[Jordan]

Maybe I'm wrong.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of that was, what are you gonna tell our kids when they see this one day? Cause they will, if I remember it.

[Nick]

Correctly, something like that. And then she's like, well, we'll sit down and talk to them. And that seemed to not be an answer you liked. You were like, well, you're gonna tell them that you cheated on me.

[Jordan]

Well, right.

And maybe that was just the cut, because what I said was, what are you gonna tell them that you cheated on me? And then you went to go to a lie detector with the guy you had an affair with, like, in that moment, like, I stand by that being. I wish that that didn't happen.

Right.

I wish that. That. I think it was a poor choice. Jesse wasn't present during that. I mean, you could see it on her face.

[Nick]

What do you mean by present?

[Jordan]

She was numb. She wasn't even there. No one was home.

[Nick]

Does that make you empathize with her? More or less.

[Jordan]

More.

I think that's what was so painful watching it back was. It was like, knock, knock, no one's home. It was sad. It was sad on multiple fronts. It was sad on that front. And then I'm also sad for myself.

[Nick]

Too, and I guess going forward. And we'll bring Jesse and Natalie in here in just a few minutes, but I guess before we do, I mean, what do you hope as the audience watches back, what do you hope that they think of you coming out of this interview? And what do you want them to know about you as a man and your ability to be a partner towards Jesse going forward?

[Jordan]

Well, I hope that my Presence here today shows that I'm willing to take accountability and that you can make mistakes and you can grow from them and you don't necessarily have to be perfect, but if you're continuing to work, I think that's kind of genuinely what's made Jesse and I have. I don't want to call it success, but, like, the only reason that we're in the place that we're at today is because of continuing to work on ourselves. And in turn, not only does working on ourselves make us better, but we're working on our relationship. So, like, I think the thing that I would say if I wanted people to think about me in a certain way is that I'm just. I'm just like. I'm just like you. I make mistakes and I try to grow from them. And I hope that that resonates with someone. That's the whole point of me coming today.

[Nick]

Do you think Jesse can feel safe going forward with you to say that you will never speak to her in a manner that you did before? Like, is there a. Can she have like a black and white rule going forward that if you were to ever do that again?

[Jordan]

I told Jesse that if it ever gets like that again, I don't want anything to do with this relationship either. For her sake, for my kids sake, and for my own sake.

Okay.

[Nick]

All right, well, let's bring in Jesse and Natalie and then we'll have a little pow wow and talk about, you know, some of the other characters on the season and send you guys on your way.

[Jordan]

Let's do it. Thanks for having me again, Nanette.

[Natalie]

We were traveling. We hosted the Special Forces reunion. Natalie and I flew to New York. Nally's mom was gracious enough to spend a night with River. And thank God we still had the nanite because we got to spy on mom in law. But no, really, we got to stay connected with our daughter, hear her sleep. You know, we don't like leaving our daughter. Thank God for Nanette so that we can still track her sleep, make sure she's doing well, and just be close to her when we are away.

[Jordan]

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[Nick]

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[Natalie]

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[Jordan]

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[Nick]

Well, welcome back.

[Jesse]

Thanks. It's been forever.

[Nick]

I was going to ask this to Jordan when it was just him and I, but I didn't get a chance to ask him yet. So I'll ask him now. But obviously last time you were here now, I asked you a very direct question about what was the exact question, do you remember?

[Jesse]

It was would Jesse want her daughter to marry a man like Jordan?

Yeah.

And her answer was no.

And I couldn't even go into detail either, so it was kind of hard.

How did you find out that that Question was asked, and it was answered that way.

[Jordan]

I saw a TikTok.

[Jesse]

No, no, no. I came home and told you. I came and told you.

[Jordan]

Right, right. No, no, I'm sorry. You did tell me.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[Jordan]

Okay, Now I remember that.

[Jesse]

I didn't let you find out online.

What was your reaction?

[Jordan]

I'm gonna be honest. I don't remember that reaction. I remember seeing. I remember the phone call I had with you after that clip. I remember calling you and just being absolutely irate, pissed. Because I felt like the question was answered really unfairly at the time. I was actually pissed off that the question was asked the way that it was and the response more so honestly at the time, just because I feel like, again, what I've learned in therapy is just, like, you always want to talk about your partner or even the parent of your child with the utmost respect. Right. And would I want my daughter to be with someone who acted and treated them the way they did? No, but that was, you know, that's just one piece. Right. Like, I would have loved some. You married me. You know, like, we had multiple kids together. You chose me. And I would have loved to have had some, like, you know, context.

[Jesse]

Well, the thing is, at the time, I couldn't give context because season three hadn't, you know, come out yet. But I think for me, when. When I hear Jordan say that is, I was kind of. I understand him being upset, for sure, but I was kind of hoping it would make him, like, wake up a little and be like, oh, like, do I want my daughter to be with someone like that? And I think over time, you've seen that in therapy. But also, I think a point that you're making is interesting that you don't speak about the parent of your child that way, but you also spoke to the parent of your children a certain way for a long time behind closed doors. So, you know, like, it kind of takes two to tango.

[Nick]

I mean, I guess that now that you're sitting here now, you guys have both talked a lot about the work you've done. How do you feel about that response now?

[Jordan]

Well, I shouldn't have responded the way I did. That's Frank coming out. Right. It doesn't mean that I changed the.

Way that I felt. I still felt like you shouldn't have spoken to me, to the world that way. So our kids would have seen that.

[Jesse]

Yeah, but they're gonna see worse season three.

[Jordan]

I still stand by that, and I still stand by that. I wish they didn't have to ever see season three. I wish they didn't have to see any of that.

[Jesse]

Right.

[Jordan]

That's fair. I don't want my kids to see their parents, their so called heroes, in these tough positions that they both put themselves in. But it's again, it's how you respond. It's how you show up and that's where the work has been done.

[Jesse]

When I asked the question to you, Jesse, had y' all already filmed season three or were y' all in the middle of filming?

We were in the middle of it and we were currently separated. Okay. It was during the press tour that they showed in la where we did like the bus and we were there and like doing press in la. I think it was that trip.

Okay, gotcha. So I guess with that, knowing that and knowing how you felt that Jesse had spoken this way about you to the world, did that change how you spoke to her continuing the season?

[Jordan]

Because you now had this, like, outsider.

[Jesse]

Point of view of like, seeing her negatively speak about you and you didn't like it. So did that change?

[Jordan]

I think I want to say that, like, it's. It's not like this. Like, there was not like a day. It was like an awakening in therapy. Right. It wasn't like, oh, now everything's gonna be perfect. Like, that's not how it works, you know?

Yeah.

So to like say specifically, like, moving forward from that point, like, I don't remember specifically, but, like, I would just say that it's just progressively gotten better and better. Like, that's what I'd answer to that. I don't. Honestly, I just don't specifically recall. Like, I remember being absolutely pissed off and.

[Jesse]

But the nice thing about us being separated at the time is you don't have to continue to fight. You can just say, okay, done. You know, so even though he was mad, I don't think it continued just because we were separated. And I was like, I'm not gonna do that.

Yeah.

[Nick]

Let me ask you this question based back to Natalie's question to Jesse. I totally get and agree with you in terms of, like, how couples speak together about each other publicly matters. It's a big priority for Natalie and I. I completely understand why that would hurt you. What hurts you more as you sit here today? The fact that Jesse did that or how you spoke and treated Jesse over the years?

[Jordan]

Oh, I mean, for sure, I treated over the years. It's not even close. Yeah, I would never. I wouldn't. I mean, like, it's not even a comparison.

[Jesse]

Also, to be fair, I would never have just said that out of the blue, like, we were filming about our situation and sharing so much publicly already that I was like, this is just one of many things we're sharing, so, you know, it's gonna come out.

[Nick]

I mean, listen, again, it's a tough situation. Again, I can completely understand where Jordan's coming from. On the flip side, you are a public figure, and as a mom with children, you know, you don't want to be in that position where you think about your partner the way you do and the difficulty that you guys have. And, you know, honestly, I felt like you were stuck between a rock and a hard place. But you like, do I protect Jordan, or do I stand up for what I think is right? Because my kids might hear this someday. And, you know, we talk a lot about daddy issues now. He's very forthright about her relationship with her father and things like that. And the reality is, like, choices you've made in the relationship with Jesse, you know, hopefully you've made some meaningful changes, and going forward, you know, that will have a greater impact on your children than maybe in the past. But I imagine that's a concern that you had up until that point about, you know, what are expectations that my children are going to have of the men they date based off of how their father treats me or even how.

[Jesse]

Jagger treats women, you know, like, as a son. So I agree. And I think that the only reason I answered the question the way I did is because of our dynamic and how I was treated. So I think both of us taking accountability and saying, okay, maybe I shouldn't have said that publicly. But also, I wish we wouldn't have been in that place to have to do that.

[Jordan]

You know, I think one of the things now that I think back was I said if I was ever asked that question about our son, I would never. I might have felt that way, right? Like, would I want my son to date someone like you? You know? Cause in that moment, I'm only worried about, would I want my son to date someone who had an affair? And I would have obviously said no, but I would never have said that out loud.

Right?

I would have given it context. Well, no, not someone that would have an affair, but that's not who Jesse is. Like, that's not her authentic self. Like, that was one of the things that I remember, like, harping on her and, like, being pissed off about.

Was it hard for you to separate the two, though?

[Jesse]

Of, like, she could only answer it this way because of the show, or were you kind of like, I don't give a fuck about this show. Like, I don't.

[Jordan]

Well, in the moment, I was like. You can say there are. I remember saying something along the lines of, like, you.

You could have said who He.

In certain moments. No. Or something like that. I don't remember, like, specifically, but something like that. But, yeah, I was definitely like, yeah.

[Nick]

But what if it was just, like, so bad from her point of view that she.

[Jordan]

Well, if it was so bad, then we should have been divorced, you know, like, maybe so. Maybe.

[Nick]

So maybe he should have been.

[Jordan]

If there's a chance at your relationship.

[Mary]

That's.

[Jordan]

I think that was kind of the point was, like, we were in this limbo place, and if, like, you're gonna make an accusation or make a comment like that. That's where that anger was coming from in that moment.

[Jesse]

Jesse did tell us a few times that, like, she, you know, had tried to divorce you. She had kind of, like, threatened this, like, I'll walk away. And it didn't seem like it was really an option. Why wasn't it for you?

[Jordan]

Because. Well, actually, it's funny enough, I remember when I asked Jesse's dad for her hand, and I remember him saying, he's not like, the very sentimental type at all. He's very much like, how would you describe your dad?

[Jesse]

Just not emotional.

[Jordan]

No emotion plays no role in anything. And I just remember him giving this whole spiel and doing all this stuff, and I just remember him going like this. He just was like, she's your problem now. And I just remember one of the things that I promised him was that divorce was not an option for me. It's just not. I don't want to do this with that ever even being an option. This is it. And I don't know, it's just one of those things that's always kind of stood in my head. I made that decision, and my love for Jesse has never wavered. What might be coming might have wavered or the possibility of divorce, but, like, my love for her, like, it never.

[Jesse]

Wavered, but how you treated her did.

[Jordan]

Yeah, it did. You're right. So you guys weren't in here earlier.

You know, one of the questions that.

Nick had asked me was, you know, why did.

Why did you treat her that way?

You know? And I think for me, it was just, you know, it's a cry for help. It was just like wanting to feel seen and to feel loved. And I think that's where it comes from. It's not an excuse, but, like, that's just, like, the root of it for me. Right.

And, you know, we went into a.

Lot of depth with that.

[Jesse]

But, Jesse, do you see that point of view? Do you feel like that's valid for him?

Yeah, I think he's definitely an anxious attachment type. And I'm a. What am I?

[Jordan]

Avoidant.

[Jesse]

Avoidant.

[Jordan]

You forgot?

[Jesse]

Yeah, sorry. I was like. I know there's a word for it. I'm avoidant. So I don't. I'm not overly emotional. I'm not, like, a typical girl. I would say. No, I don't, like, get jealous. I don't. I just.

[Jordan]

I don't know.

[Jesse]

So, yeah, maybe I'm not the best at showing love, but I do feel like it was not crazy, horrible. Like, maybe I was just working a lot and you felt like I wasn't your top priority. And I for sure could see that maybe I could have made him more of a priority rather than my business, because I. I did make that, like, my whole life. Do I think it was justified, like, to be treated that way just because of that?

[Jordan]

No.

[Jesse]

Especially when I gave him a pretty nice life. But I understand what he means by it. Like, the sentiment of it.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Is it hard to hear that she says she gave you a pretty nice life?

[Jordan]

Well, it's just. I mean, we also talked about that, so. One thing that the show doesn't really highlight is the fact that up until. Well, this is. It's. Oh, we're coming up on two years now. Wow. But, you know, I used to have my dream job with people that I love working with, and I made really good money doing it, and it just didn't make sense to commute to California, you know, for four months of the year.

[Jesse]

Yeah, I did say that earlier how I think that, like, him not working and having a purpose for sure affected his confidence.

[Nick]

Have you guys ever talked about you going back to work?

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

But if solar's different now, that's the hard thing.

[Jordan]

Yeah. A lot of the solar gold rush is still good.

It's just not like it was ridiculous.

[Nick]

So whether it's the solar gold rush or in solar, but just like something, something, something that, like, if.

[Jordan]

I mean, I've tried. I mean, like I said, I was telling Nick this. Like, I think the thing that's been really cool through this process, I never saw myself doing this whole social media personality thing, but these brand deals have been big and it's been good money. But it's also. It's not always consistent, and it's just not the same kind of grind and stuff that I Was used to.

[Jesse]

I think it's hard to have. I will say it's hard to have a normal job in this world because we film twice a year and they demand a lot from us. And now the husbands are way more involved in the story than they've ever been, so it is hard to have a schedule. And also, I, like, joked about this with Dakota the other day. I was like, how do you go just do tile jobs now, like, being who you are, like Taylor's ex. Taylor's blowing up right now. Like, you're Dakota. And it is kind of weird to, like, think of just going to work a normal job and then having this life on the side, you know? Like, it's just kind of like, how do we know people aren't hiring Dakota just so they can meet him, you know? Exactly. So I think it would be hard for him. But also, I truly believe he needs a passion, and I hope he loves what he's doing right now with the Internet stuff. But again, that could go away. Doesn't last forever. I would love for him to have something that he felt was his because even this world is mine that he stepped into. And maybe that also affects you.

[Jordan]

Yeah, I think that I have my own thing going with that, honestly. But what do you mean by that?

I mean, a lot of the stuff that been doing with dad Talk has nothing.

I mean, we have the views and whatnot from you guys for sure, but it's still our own thing.

[Jesse]

No, it's your own thing, but it is you deciding to become a part of my world.

[Jordan]

Yeah, for sure.

[Jesse]

That was what I meant.

[Jordan]

And I was telling him that the birth of dad Talk came at the heels of everything that happened. I essentially was like, well, if I'm gonna try and find common ground with Jesse, I'm gonna do the social media thing. Boom, we're gonna do dad Talk. That's what started it.

[Nick]

Jordan had mentioned that he tried to be supportive in your businesses and felt kind of down by you. Like, you. You saying, like, this is my thing. Do you remember it that way? And. And why did you choose to go about it that way rather than kind of bringing him into the fold?

[Jesse]

So, to be honest, I would love if he could be a part of it, but my family just would not allow it. To be honest. Like, Jordan can be very controlling and very opinionated. There's been a few times he's done little things for us, and he comes in and tries to change everything. And they were like, this is our business. Like, you're aware of this like, you know, they.

[Jordan]

We're talking about years old stuff.

[Jesse]

But yeah, no, yeah, but like, that's really what happened is he would try to help out with things, but then he would try to change it or do it his way or give us feedback that we didn't necessarily need. And I think it all came from a good place of like, him wanting to help, but he has a way of it coming across as controlling and harsh at times. So my family truly was like, we don't want him involved. Like, this is our thing. So it just kind of got to that point where I had to say, like, sorry, it has to be separate.

[Nick]

Are you interested in like, showing Jesse's family that you are capable of knowing your role when it comes to participating with the family business?

[Jordan]

I've done that now for years. So it's, it's. That may have been.

[Nick]

They don't seem to feel that way.

[Jordan]

Well, no, no, no, they don't. But what I'm saying is for years.

[Jesse]

Now, you've shown them by backing off, though.

[Jordan]

Yeah, that's what I've done. I've specifically just like, not been involved at all. Just completely step back and just, you know, if there's like stupid little things, like, I'll help out like whenever I'm needed or, or I see something that needs to be done, like, no problem. But, you know, it doesn't feel like that door is even like remotely open to even have that be a possibility.

[Jesse]

Also, to be honest, we already work together with the show. I don't know if I could handle like, working together in my business and what that would do to our relationship. I just think maybe it is good to keep it.

[Jordan]

Yeah, I'm not, I don't. I mean this in like the most respectful way. Like, I don't really have an interest in like doing anything like, as far.

As like a, a role with her business.

Like, I'll help out if and when I'm needed, but outside of that, like, there really isn't. If I saw a spot for me, you know, like, if I saw something that, where I could provide immense value, then I might be more interested to say it. But as of now, I mean, Jesse's just. Jesse and her dad have done such a good job with the business and putting people in places where, where they're successful and doing well. But I mean, I don't even know.

Where there'd be time right now.

Like, we're so busy with press and.

Filming and kids and family and like, we, we don't like, I Don't even know where there's time to add anything.

Like, genuinely.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

We learned throughout the season that the affair happened while you were separated. And then I learned while talking to Jesse last week that the separation idea was your idea. Why did you want to kind of portray it as like a. This happened while we were separated.

[Jordan]

Well, hold on.

[Jesse]

I told them what happened is that during those six months that we were hiding it, you had mentioned if this ever comes out.

[Jordan]

Oh, yeah, I had said that one time.

[Jesse]

Yes. But then when I got blindsided, I remembered that I was like, what's gonna.

Want me to say?

[Natalie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jordan]

Like, I said, it was embarrassment. Like, sheer embarrassment. Like, I was like, well, we could say this or, you know, whatever it was, but it was like, just.

It was just.

I was just spitballing at the time, you know, and in the moment, like, I think that's what she decided to say, like, as a. Well, it was.

It was.

[Jesse]

No, definitely. I definitely wasn't using it as an excuse. I remembered you saying that and I was like, I think this is what he'll want me to say.

[Jordan]

I know, but also, I mean, it's to protect yourself, too.

[Jesse]

No.

[Jordan]

Okay.

[Jesse]

Because if that was the case, I would go with the narrative now. I want people to know the truth.

[Jordan]

Right, right.

And what I'm saying is I was spitballing ideas, and I think at the time, I felt so, like, I don't know, maybe betrayed that I was like, well, maybe me saying something like, Sarah will comfort her. I don't know.

[Jesse]

Do you think it felt, like, less emasculating?

[Jordan]

Well, for sure. I talked a lot about that in that first section. I wish you guys would have listened in.

[Jesse]

I'm sorry.

[Nick]

Going forward, how do you plan on being a supportive partner for Jesse to make her feel the way she needs to feel? Whether it's supported, believed in, validated, while you know, not bringing your baggage into it.

[Jordan]

Yeah, well, I mean, that's what I've been doing, you know, for months now.

It's just a matter of, like, making sure that her needs are met and.

Like, just being supportive and just kind.

Of like letting her.

Letting her blossom because Jesse's so good at this world. Like, you know, I think Jesse would.

Make an incredible host for anything in, you know, obviously, like, the Disney family. Like, she would be the best that there is. Like, hands down, I can't think of anyone better. So it's just like trying to be supportive and just, you know, it's hard because a lot of her self confidence issues, like, come from me. Not all of it, but some of it. And I'm just trying to do everything in my power to just make her feel loved and supported from. Sometimes from a distance and sometimes up close. You know, I love to go on trips with Jesse. I love to stay at home with the kids and support her that way. I don't know.

I just.

I feel like we're on a really good. Really good path now.

[Jesse]

Do you feel that from him?

Yeah, I do. I was gonna say, I think that the scariest thing about what's happening now is we've been making progress, but this is gonna reopen everything. It's like the show coming out. This will come out like we're talking about hard subjects, and it could trigger both of us. And I think it's natural to feel a little defensive, you know, each of us with what happened and what the other person did. But, um, I have seen a lot of progress over the last couple of months, and he's definitely, like, a different person than he was before therapy. I will say that.

And how do you feel like you, Jesse, are gonna make. Cause you're only getting busier and more famous and, you know, everything else. So how do you feel like you're going to make sure he still feels like a top priority?

Um, I would say, even if the quality time isn't as much as it should be, but making sure that time is quality. Like, making sure when I am with him and the kids, like, I'm not on my phone. And I'm. I try to do that with my business in general. Give a hundred percent to what you're doing at the time. So if I'm at work, I'm 100% at work. If I'm with my kids or with Jordan, 100% there. And just try to be in the moment. That's something I'm really trying to work on. Because even if it's one night a week that we got to connect or spend time with each other, if that's quality time, then it's worth it, right? So I feel like that's something he would appreciate, is just me being more present.

[Jordan]

I think it's.

I think it's just being intentional, you.

Know, I think it's really easy to, like, get caught up in, like, the world and what's going on. And I think it's just, like. I mean, I've seen it, honestly, and, like, I really appreciate, like, it's not perfect. I'm not perfect, guys. Like, it's not over here. Like, I don't want to come in.

Here and be like, oh, we're great. Everything's amazing.

Because that's not true. That's just not. But I love that the effort is there because even if she. Even if there's something that I see where I'm like, well, I wish she would have done this. You know, it's crazy how the universe, like, it's crazy how the next minute she'll do something that I wasn't expecting or this or that. And it makes me feel seen, it makes me feel heard, it makes me feel understood. And, you know, we're just. We're just on this path, just putting in as much effort as we can.

To have the best life we can.

[Jesse]

Before we move on from the two of you.

[Jordan]

I do.

[Jesse]

I am curious. You, when we spoke, Jesse, you did get emotional talking about your friendships with Macy and Mikayla, but you haven't really gotten emotional talking about Jordan. Yeah, why not?

That's something I actually worked through in therapy a lot. I always joke to my showrunner and the producers. Starting in season one, I'm like, I don't cry. So just so you know, you'll never see me cry. And then season three comes, and I cried quite a bit. But for some reason, when it comes to Jordan, I've been very emotionally shut down. And I think I learned numbness as a technique because I was being treated a certain way, and the only way I knew how to react was to shut down. So, like, fight or flight? I would flight and I would shut down and I would, like, sweep everything under the rug for years because, again, I didn't really want to tell my friends and family. They saw it, but I didn't want to get into it. So I would put on these happy faces. We would fight every single day. But then I had to go teach a class or run my business or film the show, and I had to just be happy, Jesse. But it hurt me in the long run because it made it really hard for me to show emotion. I became robotic, and this season really opened me up. But for some reason, with Jordan specifically, I'm still very emotionally numb. And I think it's a defense mechanism. I think it's what I did to protect myself. I learned that in my first marriage as well. I learned how to be numb, and then I carried that over to this one. So I definitely feel like when it comes to romantic situations, that's what I do. So I'm still working through that. I think I'm work.

Do you compartmentalize?

Yes. Yeah, very much so. And that's maybe where I'm like, I'm a hundred percent at work, I'm 100% at home. I can do that very easily. So I think I learned how to do that. And now in romantic situations for sure, because of my past, I think that's what I do. So I've learned to open up a little more with him. But maybe that's why he also felt like he wasn't getting his needs taken care of is cause I I shut down for sure.

[Jordan]

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[Nick]

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[Nick]

We're recording this before the season drops and I don't know if you've thought about how the audience is gonna react, but the majority of the audience is women and I suspect they're gonna have some pretty strong reactions to how you're portrayed and how you spoke to Jesse throughout and some of the things that she talked about, how you treated her. Are you prepared for that? And do you. How are you gonna be able to withstand that without taking that out on Jesse and reminding people of the affair? And how are you gonna go about protecting Your relationship, knowing that, you know, the audience might be very reactive.

[Jordan]

I think that that's my plan is. Is just to focus on my family. Like, I'm not all these people online.

Can chirp all day.

There's gonna be people that hate me. There's gonna be people that hate her. I think there's gonna be, you know, a really big broad spectrum of what people think about what they've been able to see. And I think the best thing that I can do in that, instead of, like, being pissed off or this or that, it's to remember that that's in.

The past and, like, what we're doing now is what matters and, like, turning.

Into one another and not away from one another.

[Jesse]

I think something that I also was thinking about with hate coming our way this season is I actually, like, don't blame anyone if they say anything to me or to him, because in the past, when they've said things to me, I've always like, I need to defend myself. But in this situation, I'm like, I did do that. You're right. Like, I did cheat. What am I gonna do? Defend myself? No. And I hope he would have the same approach of like, yeah, I did do that. I messed up. Like, you have every right to feel that way. Move on. You know, like, their opinions don't matter at the end of the day. But I for sure understand why people would think that.

[Nick]

Do you feel confident and safe that Jordan will no longer react to you the way he has in the past?

[Jesse]

Yeah, for the most part. I feel like over the last six months, he's shown me that, but it's gotten better. We've had moments for sure where I'm like, nope, I can see it again, but it's less intense than it was. So I feel like each time it happens, there's more lessons learned and accountability. So it doesn't happen as much. The last month or two especially, it's been a lot better. I've told him I've been very honest. I'm in this situation where we're doing this, and I'm trying, but for a while, I was like, I'm one foot out, and if this happens again, if it even gets there, I'm done. And he knows that, so I think he knows it couldn't get there. But I do feel confident that he's made a lot of changes, and therapy's given him tools. He needs to not do that. Not saying neither of us are perfect. I told you that. I have a lot of resentment towards him and Sometimes I'll snap, and I'll be snappy because of that, but I would hope so. Yeah.

In the six months before filming, Jesse mentioned that there were moments where you were threatening to blackmail her with the messages with Marciano.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

I mean, I know the saying, hurt people, hurt people. Is that kind of where it came from?

[Jordan]

100%. There was no.

I was never, ever. And I think that was actually. It's exactly that. You know, I actually never meant it. It was just a cry for help. Hurt people, hurt people. I was literally just trying, like, be sorry for what you did. Like, be sorry, love me. Like, I'm anxious over here. Like, give me something.

[Jesse]

Did you feel like she wasn't sorry?

[Jordan]

Oh, no, no, no.

[Jesse]

You didn't feel like she was? No, I feel like in that time, it was very much in those six months about my affair and my affair only. So he was like, love me, be sorry. But I was like, wait, I'm really hurt from what you did to me for four years to get me to this headspace. So, like, I need you to acknowledge that, too. And it was both of us not acknowledging each other.

[Jordan]

I don't think that you asked for acknowledgement at that point, really.

[Jesse]

No, I did.

[Jordan]

Not the same way. Not the same way.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Not as intense as when I left. That's when the glass hit the wall, when the glass shattered. And I was like, okay, I'm done. But, yeah, I feel like we weren't seeing each other's pain for sure.

[Jordan]

That's for sure. I remember. Remind me what I said to you. Remember I wrote you that letter after we separated? There was a line that you really. And I'm trying to remember it.

Hold on. This is good.

[Jesse]

This is good. He's like, this will redeem myself.

[Jordan]

No, it doesn't redeem anything.

But I just remember you really liked. Was something along the lines of.

We'Re.

Both two broken people who made mistakes. Something along those lines. It's not exact, but, yeah.

[Jesse]

I mean, neither of us are perfect.

[Jordan]

Getting into a little bit of the.

[Jesse]

Demi of it all, that was your best friend for what seemed. I mean, to us, it seemed like your best friend for a while.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. How hard was that for you, Jordan, to see this person that you had let into your home, that you had let so close to you try to ruin Jesse's life by planting the. Like, he had sex.

[Jordan]

I think it's probably one of the most disgusting, vile things. Not that kind of vile. Right. That I've ever seen a human being do. To see her do what she did to Jesse. Like, I just think, like, I want to know what must have gone on in her life to make her feel justified or that that was okay or, like, it honestly is disgusting to me.

[Jesse]

And they open up about the sexual Marciano being a sexual predator, but that was never something that she communicated to you, right, Jesse?

[Mary]

Mm. Mm.

[Jesse]

No, it. The thing is, I think the reason she did what she did was because she was trying to hide her own actions. And I think that's what's interesting about the whole story is like, yes, there's truth to my story. Like, I did have an affair, but she wanted it to look 10 times worse. So if anything about her ever came out, oh, Jesse was worse. And let me try to hide this and get him on my side and, you know, so, yeah, at the time with Italy and all that, I was never told that it was when cameras came up that it was made to seem that way.

[Nick]

Did you ever have any off camera conversations with Demi just kind of being like, why are you going about it this way?

[Jesse]

No. About her doing that to me or.

[Nick]

To you or Marciano? It's like, I don't think anyone.

[Jesse]

She still stands by that, though, today, doesn't she?

Yeah.

[Nick]

I mean, no one here, and I don't think anyone listening thinks Marciano's a good guy.

[Jesse]

No.

[Nick]

That being said, this is the way that the words that she is using and accusations. It's such a tricky and uncomfortable conversation because, like, everyone here wants to believe women. My wife's opened up about being a victim of sexual assault. So many women in this cast, so many women listening. And of course, we obviously, we want and should believe women.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[Nick]

Just the way Demi seems to be going about it. There's no perfect victim. Is a way to kind of justify some of the things that she has done and said with Marciano that don't add up. And I. In your women's eyes, it's just. It seems really potentially destructive because it creates these conversations of having doubt with people when we should be having conversations about believing women. And, yeah, I just, like, have you had a conversation like that with Demi about, like, you know, what are you doing?

[Jesse]

So during season three, when this was all unfolding, our only conversations were on camera. And there was that one sit down we had in a restaurant. It was the first time we spoke, and I remember saying all that and going into it pretty, like, heated, and she completely turned it on me and was like, you're victim shaming. And at the time, I was like, I'm gonna look terrible. I have to give in to this, because if people take her side or the audience believes her, I'm gonna look bad. So I just gave in. And that's why you see us leave on somewhat okay terms. Cause I was like, how the hell am I gonna fight with victim shaming? You know? So I didn't. But then we've had conversations, you know, since that you may see in the future, where I'm like, okay, maybe you see me say it a little more. And I think that she is standing firm on what she's saying, but there's been lies that we've caught her in. There's proof of things. There's so much that I think that the truth will always come out. And I think she's going about this a horrendous way, and I think that karma will catch up.

Where does your friendship stand with Brett?

[Jordan]

Not blaming you, but I feel like their dynamic, Jesse and Demi's dynamic has just made it so uncomfortable for both of us to where we just don't really have a relationship. We used to see each other at the gym because we go to the same gym every day, but I've just.

Been going earlier in the morning just.

Cause I just don't want to. It's just I don't want to start my day with that. It's not that there's necessarily an issue between us. We've had lots of conversations, but it's probably been gol a couple months.

[Jesse]

And why was he driving by your house taking photos?

I actually did talk to Demi about that once we figured things out, and she said it was her. She was like, I was going crazy. I quit the show, and I wanted to know what was going on, and so she made him do it.

Okay.

Crazy.

[Jordan]

I was just being honest about it.

Yeah.

[Jesse]

At least she was honest.

[Nick]

Yeah. Before we wrap, I. Do you feel like you have forgiven Jesse for the emotional affair?

[Jordan]

Do I feel like I've forgiven Jesse for the emotional affair? Yes, today I do.

[Nick]

What does that mean?

[Jesse]

Just today? Not today?

[Jordan]

No.

I mean, as far as, like, it.

Was a big, huge deal, and I think that her being here and being willing to work past a lot of these things, like, shows me effort. Effort. And as long as the effort is shown, then. Then, yes.

[Nick]

Who do you think has more to show? You or her?

[Jordan]

More to show?

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Like, effort, I guess.

[Natalie]

You know, it's just, like, I get.

[Nick]

One thing, I guess, overall in this conversation, I think I maybe struggled a little bit with empathizing with you. It's just you definitely. You guys have done the work. You're taking accountability, but there's just a little bit of, like, it was a response to what she did, you know, And. Yeah, it's just. It's really hard for me to know how you spoke to Jesse and how you've treated Jesse. And I guess I would want a little bit more, like, I'm so disgusted with how I did that. And while it doesn't make it okay for what Jesse did, I fucking get it. You know, I really get it. I. If I were in her shoes, if I got it treated this way, if I spoke to my wife this way, I. Cause I can't. I can't imagine doing that now. You know what I'm saying? Where there's a little bit of, like.

[Jordan]

I agree with that. I am disgusted. I should have never done it. There's no excuse for it. But on the contrary, there's also no excuse for what she did.

[Jesse]

I think that's his point, is that you can't say it without, like, throwing in what I did.

[Jordan]

No, no, I know. Well, it sounded like maybe I misheard you.

[Nick]

Listen, people cheat for all different reasons. But I kind of feel like. And, you know, sometimes there's so.

[Jordan]

It sounds like you're making an excuse for it.

[Nick]

I mean, if I. If you're asking if I'm being honest, I get the position Jesse was in. I mean, if I believe Jesse was in the store.

[Jordan]

Did you get the position I was in where I didn't. I wasn't. You know, I tried to explain that maybe it didn't come across well.

[Nick]

Listen, I can't. I know. I understand not feeling supportive. I understand, you know, you could be emasculated. I don't understand how you could have said and done some of the things that you said.

[Natalie]

I think everyone deserves grace.

[Nick]

I think people make mistakes. I think people can learn. I think you can be a better man for it. I think you can. I think there's a world where you can say, I'm not that person anymore. I used to have been that person. But, no, there is no excuse for it.

[Jordan]

To answer your question, very directly, yes.

Correct.

I think my brain might have made up what you were saying.

[Natalie]

Sure. But I get.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

I'm not making excuses for Jesse, but I get it.

[Nick]

I get why she felt so trapped and so lost and so alone. Because, like, man to man, it was your job. Whatever she did to you or however you felt unsupported. More than anything, it's your job to make her feel safe. It's your job to make her feel like. Yeah, I mean, she does for me, but I. You know, I remember.

[Jordan]

So just so you know, during that time, that's what I was trying to do, but I think it was too far gone at that time, genuinely.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

Do you remember that? What, like, right before you had the affair. Like, I was.

Before the affair even happened. I was at that place, but it was too little, too late. Just so you know. It doesn't make it right. Doesn't make it better.

[Jesse]

You were trying to put the pieces back together.

[Nick]

Oh, yeah.

[Jordan]

100%, yes.

[Jesse]

You remember that, Jesse?

Not really. I'm trying to remember, like, what, you.

[Jordan]

Mean you don't remember our conversations?

[Jesse]

I think we were always just up and down.

[Jordan]

There was always conversations, like, from September.

[Jesse]

I genuinely. I don't remember timeframe. I just know we would have good moments. We had bad moments.

[Jordan]

No, no.

That whole month, I already knew that she was in a place where not something like that was a possibility because that was just.

[Jesse]

He knew I had checked out. Probably.

[Jordan]

There was a checkout point, and that's when I was rushing back.

[Jesse]

And again, it felt like it was. Yeah. Maybe like, oh, you realize I'm checking out. So now you're trying to change.

[Jordan]

Right? So, like, that's. That's what was. You know, again, not making excuses for it, but I'm just saying, like, I remember very specifically. No feeling that. Like, feeling that. Like that checkout point and from. And then chasing before the affair even happened.

[Nick]

Yeah, I guess it's, you know, again, like, we're talking semantics here, I guess. But, like, I would like, friend to friend, I would feel like for you guys to make this work and for you to truly take accountability. I get that what she did caused him a lot of pain, and you guys will continue to work through that and process that. But to truly own your behavior leading up to that point, in a way, I feel like, requires you to, like, really understand why she did what she did. And then while you still have the right to be hurt by it, but to a point where you would never throw it in her face or remind her of it or be like, but you did this.

[Jordan]

I think we both have still had that happen because there's been times where.

Well, you had an affair or vice versa.

Well, you treated me this way for four years. I don't think either of us are at that place yet completely, if I'm gonna be transparent.

[Nick]

That's fair. That's fair.

[Jordan]

I've heard that line multiple well, you treated me this way. For four years, you treated me this way.

[Jesse]

I told Natalie that it's almost been harder for me the better he's gotten because I'm resentful. I'm now seeing the potentials there. And I asked you for four years and you couldn't do it. But now that we're on camera, you can. Or now that.

[Jordan]

And now it's flip flop too for me. Right.

It's hard.

It's hard. And that's what therapy's for.

Right?

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

I just don't. I don't want to blow smoke up your ass.

[Nick]

I appreciate it.

[Jordan]

I'm being honest with you. I think that they're still. Both of us are kind of like. And sometimes it's more me and sometimes it's more her.

[Jesse]

Her dropping Nautikara, how does that make you feel?

[Jordan]

You know, at first I was really.

Upset, but I understand that it's a hard name to pronounce. There's some things in the future that you'll. You'll see and learn about why that's so important to me and why her dropping it was really hurtful. But I also, like, want her to shine and I want her to have every opportunity that comes her way. My last name's hard to pronounce. I think that it's tough, the timing on the heels of the Affair. Right. But outside of that, I get it. I understand it. And it did take me a minute to get to that place.

[Nick]

Okay, well, we have to wrap. I appreciate you guys coming and opening up and being vulnerable. I'm wishing you guys nothing but the best. I don't know what the future holds for you guys. I'm sure more will be revealed in season four and all that stuff, but outside of the show, I know obviously these are topics that many couples deal with. And so thanks for opening up. And I just really like, man to man. I hope that, like, we never hear of a. An episode. And I just think, you know, you're in a position now as a guy, as a public figure, to be a good role model, not only to your daughters, but, like, for a lot of guys out there watching. And I think there's just too many situations where men justify speaking to women a certain way. And I really feel like there is no justification. And you are going to be hurt in the future. Jesse is going to hurt you in the future. You're going to hurt Jesse. But I do think we can draw a line in the sand by how we speak to our partners.

[Jordan]

That line's been drawn for sure.

[Nick]

Well, I certainly hope so. And I appreciate you guys opening up and wish you guys nothing but the best.

[Jordan]

Thanks for having us.

[Jesse]

Thank you for having us.

Sorry I asked a question that made you mad.

[Jordan]

No, that's all right.

I'm glad.

I'm glad we're here.

[Jesse]

Yeah. We needed to have.

[Jordan]

So.

Yes.

[Jesse]

Thank you, guys.

[Jordan]

All right.

[Nick]

Thanks, guys.