Ella (2:27)

I don't want to sound like a know it all by any means, but I am a teacher. I do have my master's degree in early childhood education from birth to second grade. So I have a lot of background knowledge with children. And I do believe that at my friend's son's age that he should know better when he's around my three year old son. But I believe that he chooses to act out on purpose and my friend doesn't do anything to correct it.

Nick (2:56)

Okay, what is he doing?

Ella (2:58)

Basically, my son's always getting hurt with him, always. And I've babysat her son all throughout the summer. I did it for free. I told her, like, I'm off for the summer. I'll help you out. And every single time I'd babysit him, my son was always getting. He was too rough, essentially. Just too rough. And that's fine. Boys will be boys. Like, it's like, I don't mind, you know, the rough play a little bit, but it's the fact that he seems to have no empathy, sympathy, care. Like, doesn't know when to stop. I'm yelling, screaming, because now my son is like potentially like really, really about to be hurt. And I can't get even. Like he won't say sorry. I look at his eyes and he just doesn't look like he even cares. Which is like a little scary for me.

Nick (3:40)

As you know, I'm a new parent. My daughter is not even two years old. So, you know, we're learning as we go. I don't know when River's first memory is going to be. I don't remember being under 2 years old. Maybe there's like glimpses and moments that I don't realize how young I was or yada, yada, yada. I think sometimes I have a foggy memory of my parents holding me the way I'm like, we'll pick up river type of thing. But I definitely remember kindergarten. I remember a lot of kindergarten. I remember my first day of kindergarten. I remember the name of the girl that we all had a quote unquote crush on in kindergarten. I remember learning the song, shimmering, kiddink, eating. This is all, this is all to say. You're right. Like when I hear six, my first thought is like, oh, they're only six. But then I think, well, yeah, when I was in kindergarten, I understood right and wrong. You know, river under two years old right now, she, you know, is developing and I guess in some ways, testing boundaries, acting out. She will sometimes like get rough with us, right? So she learns the word boo boo, right? So now anytime any boo boo on her, she wants to kiss it, right? So sometimes she has hit us, you know, in a, you know, kind of not like in a hit, but like she's slapping and then it will be like, ow. You know, like that, you know, like that hurt. And then she'll give us a hug and she'll kiss our boo boo. And like she is showing like this kind of empathy and awareness that like she doesn't fully understand, you know, the cause and effect. But she, she shows empathy. She's not even two. So I get what you're saying where it's just like if this kid's really just that physical with your son. And so I'm just back to your friend. I am curious. Like, I'm assuming you've said to your friend, hey, your son's really rough with my son. And I'm just a little worried.

Ella (5:17)

I felt like, and she is my close friend and I know that I can go to her for anything, but I did like, I felt some type of way, like I was a little nervous to tell her. So I like held off for the first couple times. And then after, you know, the fourth time of me babysitting and my son has like bruises and marks on him from hanging out from me babysitting her son. My partner, my son's dad was like, I don't think you can babysit him anymore because if you can't control his behavior around our son, it's not safe for him. So I was like, let me just talk to her. Because you're right, like maybe this have, has gone too far. So I talked to her about in person and she was just kind of like dismissive. Like she was like, oh, I hear you. But.

Nick (5:59)

What was the but? Like, what's the but?

Ella (6:00)

Oh, but like that's, you know, he's so cooked up in the house all day. We live in a small apartment. He doesn't get his energy out. He's mad at his sister, his two year old sister all the time.

Nick (6:10)

Those are reasons, like there are reasons why he's not like a psychopath and why he's beating the shit of your kid. And they're all, they may be valid reasons, but that doesn't help you. It's like, okay, well, and then he'll she.

Ella (6:23)

The next time I told her the time after that, it was this. Now this is the second time, she said, oh, well, I Talked to him and he told me that it's because your son was annoying him and like he didn't know how to get him to stop. And I said, he's three. Like, what am I supposed to do with that? He's three. He knows the difference. He, you know, like he has a two year old sister, so he knows what that's like. And my son does it. Like I'm watching them, they're in front of my face. I never leave them without supervision. Like, I see my son is a little annoying sometimes. He's three. It's a tough age, I get it. But I said, I was like, well, did you kind of like tell him how to handle that next time a solution. And she's like, yes, and it's not gonna happen again. I said, perfect. Nothing ever got better. I just let it go. I just, you know, I have to keep my eye on all the time. I'm doing her a favor by babysitting. So I'm like, it's fine. But the most recent situation, and this is why I feel like our friendship might really suffer and like might not ever come back from this, is because we were at a birthday party, a one year old birthday party for a mutual friend. I walked away from where they were playing her son and my son and I walked away to grab a water bottle. I literally turn around and my son is coming to me crying. And he goes, I have a boo boo on my nose. And he was cut like right above his like nose, right here, like in between his eyes. And it was like a little cut, like, not a big deal. And I said, oh, what happened? And he said, he threw something at me. And I said, oh, what did he throw? And he goes, he threw a cup. I said, come show me because I have no idea what you're talking about. It was like a half crushed beer can. So my friend's son picked up a half crushed beer can that he found on the floor at a one year old birthday party and threw it at my son's face, therefore giving him a cut right here in between his eyes.

Nick (8:05)

That's crazy.

Ella (8:05)

Which, yeah, I was like, sounds so white trash and sounds terrible.

Nick (8:09)

But like, what is it? What is a half crushed beer crayon doing around?

Ella (8:13)

I found out that it was her husband's beer can that he forgot to throw out. Which made it so much worse because I'm like, first of all, the beer can came from your husband and then your son threw it at my son's face. Which, like, if it was like an Inch over. It could have hit him in the eye. I'm like panicking, screaming, crying in my head. And then I just was like, I have to go. Like, I have to go to work, I have to leave. And I left the birthday party. I waited four days and then I sent her a text saying, I don't think that our son should be anywhere near each other anymore. I'm so sorry that I feel this way, but like, I've tried to talk to you about this. No behaviors ever corrected or better. I'm sorry if I don't want this to seem like I'm coming at you. I don't know. I sent a long text and then my partner was like, that was. You did too much. And I think the text that you sent was probably the damage.

Nick (9:01)

Like that you listen.

Ella (9:04)

I was like, oh no.

Nick (9:04)

At the end of the day, listen, it's, it's all about the kids. So like, if you don't want, if, if, especially in this moment, if you don't think it's safe, you're a three year old to hang around anyone, you have the right to say no. Right? If this is a conversation about like me offering subtle suggestions or notes on how you could have maybe more effectively communicated to your friend to try to preserve the friendship in the long term, because in the short term it makes sense why your friend might get defensive and et cetera, et cetera, right? Like there's not, there might not be anything we can do about to avoid hurt feelings in the short run. It sounds like various kids could just for whatever reason, just go through various stages and acting out and who knows? And maybe it's just like, who knows where it's coming from, right? You know, so again, this is all about how can we communicate with my friend to preserve the friendship long term, Just never send three paragraphs in a text, you know, period. I don't care what it's about, I don't care what the situation is. It's not going to work, right? So if your goal is to have effective communication, no one reads, try, send, send a go go in an email, write a small paragraph, copy and paste that and text it to yourself and see how different it feels to read that in a text versus reading that on a paragraph. Right? It's just, it's the intensity of rece pages in a text when in reality it's only a paragraph. It's literally triggering for most people, certainly triggering for me, and it's certainly extra triggering for someone who is expecting bad news.

Ella (10:39)

Yeah, that is exactly What I needed to hear. Like, I needed to hear what I did wrong, like, where I could have done this better. But you're totally right. Like, and I've been drafting the message to her for so long, it doesn't matter.

Nick (10:51)

It doesn't matter what's in it, you know, because she skimmed it and she only read, I don't want your kid hanging out with my kid. That's all she read.

Ella (10:58)

You're right.

Nick (10:59)

She cherry picked what she read. She only read the accusations. I'm sure you try to sprinkle it with all these things, then she didn't read any of that.

Kate (11:09)

Yeah.

Ella (11:09)

You know, yeah, that's exactly what happened.

Nick (11:11)

So, yeah, I mean, I would just avoid that in the future.

Ella (11:14)

So her problem now is, like, I wanted her to be, like, receptive. Obviously, my goal was so that she realizes how serious his behavior is with other children. It's not just mine. Maybe be like, okay, this really hurts me. But, like, this is something I really now have to look into. Because she did say she. She was like, people have told me he's too rough, but the way you said it to me, like, no offense, like, did sound mean, but, like, it really did hit me. Like, I really did realize, like, the severity of it. And I was like, that. Like, that was my goal, like, was to just realize, like, how serious his behaviors are.

Nick (11:46)

We also just live in a time where words. I don't think words are weapons. You know, I think our feelings are valid, but our feelings aren't more important than anyone else's feelings. Right?

Host 1 (11:58)

We.

Nick (11:59)

Our feelings are valid, but there are feelings, and we're responsible for our feelings. And words can be hurtful, but I don't think they should be weapons. But I think they are often interpreted as weapons. And now we live in a society where we have watered down the meaning of words. And so when we throw out accusations, I think it can really scare people because we're so quick to accuse people of, like, of narcissism and things like that. And sometimes I think that people saying the things like, oh, my ex is a narcissist, like, they're projecting and they're frustrated, and maybe they think their ex is selfish. But sometimes people will hear, oh, shit, like, I've had that right. I've had people describe their parents, their partners, their exes as narcissists. And as someone who's like, a literal guy, I'm like, man, sounds like a bad person. And maybe they're mad at that person, and maybe they're selfish. When you Accuse someone of being a narcissist. I'm thinking, oh, narcissist is a, like a. It's a real diagnosis, and it's a serious thing. And someone who's a real narcissist is potentially, potentially dangerous to other people. But, like, some people are just, like, really selfish assholes and not necessarily narcissists, but they might have demonstrated narcissistic behavior. But again, I'm just saying we now live in a time where I think we're all on edge of being accused of things because words have become weapons, and we've used these words to weaponize things and go after other people. And I think. Does that make sense?

Ella (13:26)

Yeah.

Nick (13:27)

All right, so back to like. And I get how you preface this call by mentioning you're a teacher and having some experience. And I'm glad that you have this knowledge. And in no way, you clearly know more than me about this stuff. But when you're in conflict with someone, it's not doing you any good to start that conflict. By letting them know that you have more authority over them and that you know more than them, you are positioning yourself in a power position which then makes them feel a certain way, like, that their opinions don't matter. And then if you're starting that conversation with a friend who in most cases I'm their equal, it's kind of condescending at best.

Ella (14:11)

Yeah, that's definitely what I was afraid of for sure, because her son was actually in my class two years ago. So, like, I definitely didn't want her to think, you know, I'm coming off as like a know it all. Like, I'm telling her what's wrong with her kid.

Nick (14:26)

And I'm sure as a teacher, you know, that nowadays that, like, you know, whether it's doctors or teachers, I think there is, like, you know, we're getting into all these societal conflicts. But, you know, there's this running joke that, like, the doctor who graduated last in his class, you know what they call him? Doctor. You know what I'm saying? You know, it's like the teacher who. Who graduated last in their class, you know what they call them? An educator. You know, and there are amazing teachers and amazing doctors, and there are corrupt doctors and bad teachers. Right? And I think sometimes when doctors or teachers will start a conversation by disqualifying the people they're having a conversation by invoking their education as a place of, like, I know more than you, it often doesn't land. You would be better off trying to, like, like, with your child when you are, you know, bringing yourself to their level, so to speak, and trying to communicate to them. Again, you want to not be condescending. I'm curious, like, how would, how do you wish you would have communicated to your friend knowing that like this is her child? We're all defensive of our children. You have to be careful how you criticize people's kids. And, and doesn't mean you're wrong, you know, how would you, how do you wish you would have communicated that better?

Ella (15:43)

I wanted to text her so that she had like a few days to think about things before like even having to respond. But I probably should have done it in person again. Yeah, I probably would have just asked her like, how he's, I don't know because then my teacher mode comes in and I'm like, how is he doing at home? And then I relate that into like how he's handling situations with my son. Like, I go into this teacher mode where I'm like, I have to be a parent and like a friend and like separate my teacher experience from that. But I guess I would just say like, is, is there anything we can do so that they play less roughly?

Nick (16:21)

Sure.

Ella (16:21)

I'm like, but I just feel like I'm like sugar coating things, you know.

Nick (16:24)

But yeah, but you kind of, you know, again, you're talking to a parent who's, you know, they're defensive of their child. But to your point, like you wanted your friend to see that at 6 years old. It's crazy. Like I'm thinking like, no, I knew, I remember kindergarten and I remember that I shouldn't throw things at little, you know, like I, I have a vivid memory of being in second grade, which is a few years older, but I have this vivid memory of being second grade and feeling older than younger kids and feeling more, you know. And with that came a sense of like responsibility over younger kids. Like, I'm a big brother, you know, I'm, I'm, I need to take care of the people who are, you know, like, you know, you pass it down, you know, it's just like it is crazy that a 6 year old is throwing anything at younger kids. I think that, that it's problematic. Now. That doesn't mean this kid needs to be locked up or they're dangerous or they're going to turn out to be a bad kid. It just means that like, there needs to be some type of action here. I don't know what that looks like and you probably know more than me, but you just really need to Like, I think the most important thing is, one, stop texting this stuff. And two, you just need to recognize just how sensitive these conversations are. If you really want to get through to your friend, you really have to go out of your way to be careful how you say things. Because again, like, as a parent, this isn't about, like, protecting your kid. You're not going to allow your kid to hang out with this kid. So, like, your kid's safe, right? They have you as a mom. So as soon as you feel like your kid, so, like, okay, I'm not going to put my kid at risk. This is about you communicating with your friend, right? That's what this is about, right? Because your kid's safe. You've already intervened. Now you want to preserve the friendship and try to help your friend figure out how to stop their kid, the 6 year old, from throwing things. And you're trying to do that knowing that this is going to be very sensitive and very triggering for her and she's going to be defensive and she's going to have to make changes in her parenting. And, you know, that's tough to hear from a friend.

Ella (18:36)

So my fear is that, like, if I didn't say anything or even if I did and things still didn't change and I still let the kids hang out, is that her parenting skills will affect the way that I see her as a friend. Because then it's like, how do I respect a friend who's letting their child do this to mine? So, like, you know, that's why I was like, I have to say something. If it ends our friendship, I'll understand. But right now, she's not in a place where she said, like, I don't want to be friends with you. This is too crazy. What she said to me was, while we're in the same circle of friend groups where all of our friends have kids and we all get together and we all let the kids hang out so that we can hang out. What does that look like now?

Host 2 (19:18)

I think you just have to tweak.

Nick (19:19)

Your mindset a little bit. And what I mean by that is you're preparing yourself for the worst, which I totally get. Mentally, you're already like, all right, we might not be able to be friends. I'm gonna, I'm gonna set this boundary and this is gonna end the friendship. You're just assuming what you don't already know, right? So you're assuming the worst. You are. You're not giving her the benefit of the doubt. And maybe you have justifiable reasons why. But you're going to that place and you're not even sure if you're there.

Ella (19:46)

Yeah, I'm jumping to conclusions.

Nick (19:48)

Right? And so that's a fair question of your friend. And I think you need to take a step back, be like, wait, listen, first of all, I want our kids to hang out. I want that. All right? I am simply reacting out of a. From a place of, like, obviously, you know, a protective parent to my child. There's just been too many instances where, like, things have happened. I'm imagining me as you and talking to your friend, and when I say things have happened. Right. I chose to say that rather than saying there have been several instances where your child hurt my kid. You know what I'm saying? You don't need to, like, beat it in her and graphically describe. She knows what happened. So you're just trying to get her to. Without getting so defensive that she's not hearing you. She doesn't want her kid to be the bad kid, you know, I'm assuming, right. She is coming up with reason, right? Like, oh, your kid was annoying. Oh, he's cooped up in a house. That is her trying to defend herself. As a parent, how would you feel if your kid was hurting other people? You'd be like, I'm. I'm a fucking. Is it me? Is it. Am I. You know, like, what did we do wrong? Try to put her on ease. I hate. Being a mom is hard. Being a parent is hard. Like. Like, I get it. This is. You know, let's just figure this out. You know, obviously, you know, things are happening. Sometimes kids will do crazy things, but let's. Let's get little Eric to a place where he's not doing this because, like, listen, this is not just about me protecting my son. And I don't think, you know, I'm sure your son means well, but we need to figure out how to not get him to act out the way because, you know, it's. No one wants that. You don't want that. We don't want people throwing things. I don't want my kid throwing things at you. And, you know, and it's. It's just trying not to put a target on his back because, you know, of feelings. You're gonna do what you need to do as a mom to protect your kid. And that's what I mean. It's like, I think sometimes as protective parents or just, you know, friends who want to do the right thing or friends who want to hold our friends accountable for Whatever the reason is, we enforce our own boundaries. Right. So you don't need to lecture your friend about the boundary that you have, which is, if my kid is in an unsafe situation, I'm going to remove my kid from that situation. You don't need anyone's permission to do that. You don't need your friend's permission. You don't need her partner's permission. You don't need the group's permission. You can do that whenever you want. Right.

Host 2 (22:17)

So.

Nick (22:17)

And I think sometimes we're communicating as if you need their permission. Like, you need to see. You need her to see how bad her kid is to justify why you're doing what you're doing. And I think you want to separate those two, because that helps you get through to the person you're trying to get through, knowing that, like, you don't need to trigger her or instigate her. Because if she doesn't hear you, if she. If. If you don't get through to her, you can always do the extreme thing, which is to remove your kid from that situation and not allow your son to be around her son.

Ella (22:54)

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Nick (22:55)

And so when you are communicating with her, go out of your way to not trigger her. Your holy goal is to get through to her. You're not protecting your son in that moment. You're communicating with her friend and trying to help a friend out and put yourself in their shoes, which is to know. I would be really defensive if my kid was doing this, too, and I had another parent coming at me. Even if they were right, you know, I would be defensive.

Ella (23:22)

No, you're right. Cause I do feel like I did come from that kind of place, and that's definitely not what I wanted. But, like, now I know how to go forward. Just be there for her. Let her know, you know, that I do want this to work out. I do want them to be friends. And just, you know, even if I can always just ask if she ever needs any help with anything like that, I'm here for her.

Nick (23:46)

Yeah.

Ella (23:46)

Instead of it coming off as like, yeah, these are the reasons why I don't want your son around my son. I should have been more understanding.

Nick (23:54)

I would. If I were you, I would call her up at some point and I would say, hey, I just wanted to call and apologize. I. I shouldn't have sent that text. And I can understand why that might have been upsetting. That was a bad way of communicating. I would start there, and then you'd say, I want our sons to be friends. I want us to, like, you know, I love you. I want us to figure this out because, like, I'm sure, you know, like, you don't want your son throwing things, you know? And it's like that. It's like, when you say it like that, that gives her the space to say, girl, I don't like. What am I supposed to do here? Can you help me? You know, because when you. When you come from a place of, like, your fucking son's throwing things, that. That is an accusation to her, rather than empathizing with her saying, I know you don't want this, and that makes her feel human, and that makes her feel like, oh, my God. I know parenting's hard. How can I help? You're not creating a safe space for her to ask your help. You are telling her that you know better than her and that you're a better mom than her.

Ella (24:53)

Yeah, 100%. No, you're right.

Nick (24:55)

All right.

Ella (24:55)

It makes me feel a lot better about everything.

Nick (24:57)

Okay, well, keep us updated how things proceed.

Ella (25:01)

Yeah, I'm sure you'll go through this, too, with being a dad. Like, you just. There's those kids out there, you're like, I don't want that kid anywhere near my kid.

Nick (25:08)

Sure. But even, like, again, River's only. She's not even two yet, but we take her to the park, and usually she walks up to little kids and hugs them or. Or. Or big kids, but every once in a while, it's like, whoa, what are you doing? You know, like, she doesn't know any better, but, like, you know, I don't know. Nature versus nurture. I think sometimes it's a little. You know, it could be either or, you know, like, when my brother was born who's now a cop, he was. He was always different, man. From the moment he. From the moment he came out, he's like, this kid's possessed, you know, like, he turned out to be a cop, you know, so it's like. It kind of makes sense. All right, well, Hope. Yeah, I'm glad this was helpful. Just know your kid's gonna be safe because he has you as a parent, and so don't project that onto other friends, because sometimes his parents will be like, I need to do this. And I'm. You know, it's like, your kid's good. You're going to. You're going to do what you need to do for your child.

Host 1 (26:01)

Yes.

Ella (26:01)

Got it. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Nick (26:03)

All right, take care. Bye.

Ella (26:05)

Bye.

Host 2 (26:07)

Lots of scams out there, you know, you never can be too safe. And that's why we stick with Cash App. It keeps our money safe while still making everything easy. Sending Cash Paying for Stuff, Getting Perks In a world of digital currency, you never can be too sure that you're not falling for scams. And that's why it's always great to transfer and send money through Cash App. When you get the Cash App card, not only do you get access to a ton of perks and benefits like exclusive early access to nationwide concert presales or discounts on popular brands, you also have extra security with the power to instantly lock or unlock your card right from your phone in just one tap. If a suspicious transaction pops up on your card, Cash App has your back by automatically declining the purchase and sending you a heads up to confirm if it's you or not. Behind the scenes, you can rest assured knowing your account balance is protected by 24. 7 fraud monitoring spend with peace of mind today and order a Cash App card in the app or at Cash App Card for a limited time. New Cash App Customers can earn $10 if they use code SECURE10 at signup and send $5 to a friend within 14 days. Terms apply. Cash App is a financial service platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App Bank Partners Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank Member FDIC Discount and promotions provided by Cash App, a Block Incorporated brand. Visit Cash App Legal Podcast for full disclo.

Host 1 (27:29)

Well I know that holiday gift shopping can be hard. Everything feels either too generic, too over the top, but Aura Frames hits the perfect middle. It's thoughtful, easy and makes finding the right gift way simpler. Aura Frames is a digital frame that you can upload pictures and videos to from any device and they will instantly appear on your aura frame. This is a gift that I got from my dad last year because he was in the hospital and I knew he wasn't going to be able to be around family and friends and so I got him an aura frame and uploaded it with all pictures and of river, all of his other grandkids, his children, his parents, so many things that he was missing out on in life and he was able to be in the hospital and be able to still follow along and be connected to his family. And that's what our frames is all about. Keeping everyone connected. It is so easy to set up so even the most like non tech savvy people in your life will have no problem setting it up. It just takes two minutes. You can upload videos up to 30 seconds long and your favorite Live photos will play right on frame. The embedded speaker can play audio on demand. So for a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get 35 off or as best selling carver matte frames named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code V I A L L at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code V I A L L. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Don't wait when the holidays now with Aura Frames.

Host 2 (28:54)

Well, you know how much we love our dogs, Jeff and Steve, and we always want to make sure they're taken care of. And that's why you are about to get a quick message from today's sponsor, the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program. You know your pet is part of your family. You do pretty much anything for them, right? Well, those vet bills can really add up. That's why it's worth checking out. ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Pet insurance can help manage your vet bills so that you can focus on what really matters, making sure your pets get the care.

Nick (29:19)

They need when they need it.

Host 2 (29:20)

Oh, and there's a little bonus. There's a perk for enrolling. When you enroll in the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Plan, you could get a 25Amazon gift card. It's a little treat for you while you're doing something great for your pet. The program offers customizable accident and illness plans, making it easier to get your pet the care they need. It's been around for almost 20 years and they have covered nearly 1 million pets in that time. You can tailor your plan to fit your budget, your lifestyle, and your pet's particular quirks. Because big vet bills never show up when it's convenient. To explore coverage, Visit ASPCA pet insurance.com/v I a l l that is a s p c a pet insurance.com v I a L L Eligibility restrictions apply. Visit ASPCA pet insurance.com/Amazon terms for more info. This is a paid advertisement. Insurance is underwritten by either independent American Insurance Company or United States Fire Insurance Company and produced by PTZ Insurance Agency Ltd. The ASPCA is not an insurer and is not engaged in the business of insurance.

Nick (30:21)

How's it going?

Katie (30:22)

Hi Nick. So cool to be here and to see you. I've been following you for years. Thank you for all the advice you've given. You have gotten me out of some toxic shit.

Nick (30:31)

All right, well, how can I help? First, let's start with your name and age.

Katie (30:35)

My name is Katie and I am turning 40 next week.

Nick (30:38)

Okay, and then how can I help?

Katie (30:39)

So I have been in a relationship for two years, living together a year and a half, wondering if it's time to stop playing house.

Nick (30:47)

First of all, this is a committed relationship.

Katie (30:49)

Yes, sir.

Nick (30:50)

So you say stop playing house. What do you mean?

Katie (30:53)

Well, ideally this is going to lead to building a family, but if it's not the right one, then that's not going to happen. So it would be an inauthentic experience.

Nick (31:05)

What do you mean by playing house? I guess is. Let's start there.

Katie (31:07)

We are kind of on the launching pad to that beautiful goal of having kids and starting a family together. But I say playing because if it's not the right person that I'm doing it with, then I'm playing house right now and shouldn't be.

Nick (31:22)

Okay, so.

Host 2 (31:22)

And so you're trying to figure out.

Nick (31:24)

Whether this is the right person?

Katie (31:25)

Essentially, yes. I'm really battling a lot with how I'm defining love. This is the first relationship I've had that's even lasted this long. And what I value so much about it is this feeling of safety. And I know you've talked about this before. I know you can relate to it. This is the first relationship where I really have felt that from the jump and just this very ease of trust. I'm very comfortable, I'm very content. I don't want to see him go.

Nick (31:54)

What'S the problem then?

Katie (31:56)

I don't have that, like, excitement.

Nick (32:00)

Okay, that's a you problem though, right?

Katie (32:03)

I don't know how to. What, what do I.

Kate (32:05)

What?

Nick (32:06)

Well, listen, I mean, I don't, you know, obviously we just started talking, but we all want to be excited. I get that. But you know, that can come from a million different things. And that excitement, I don't know, like, I don't know you. Right. But like you just mentioned, I've been helpful, you know, through you listening to the podcast of getting what you described as a lot of bullshit and, you know, toxic relationships you have meant, you know, you quickly mentioned that this is the first time that you have felt safe in a relationship, you know, and things like that. And from a 40 year old standpoint, part of that, you must recognize that this is the first time you've prioritized feeling safe in a relationship. Right. It's not the first time you've met someone willing to do that it's. This is the first time you've made that a priority. Right. I'm guessing, as most of us have done at younger ages, you have prioritized other emotions like the spark or being excited or feeling that intangible thing that you're describing that you're missing. And that intangible thing, that spark, sometimes could be a sign that your body is reacting to feeling unsafe. It's like that fomo. It's like, I don't want to go to that party, but I also want to be asked. That validates us and makes us feel something. Or like, we like the chase. You know, we like to. We, you know, we want to feel special and important. So when someone is just like, when we're unsure about how someone likes us, it often will drive us to like them a little bit more than we do. Right. Which creates that kind of special intangible feeling. I got the thing that I was worried that I wasn't going to get, and now I feel really excited because this now feels special. Now, I don't know if that's. I'm talking in a lot of, like, generalities and. But, you know, that being said, they're often the case. But like, you've given me a few concrete examples of healthy situations, and maybe you can give me more specific examples. But your example of why you're unsure that this isn't the guy is a feeling based off of, I don't want to say nothing, but not anything that you can change. It's just how you feel about the situation, not the person or the actions.

Katie (34:16)

I just wonder how. What level of questioning is healthy or not? In a committed relationship, is there always this little bit of questioning, like, would it be better in a different relationship? Or are you just always certain, no, this is my person and I would never want to try with someone else?

Nick (34:34)

You first have to figure out whether this is. Again, when I kind of joked and suspected that this is a you problem. But that is a big question. Is this a you problem or is this a him problem? If he is doing or not doing things that you're reacting to, which is causing this feeling, then it's maybe a hip problem, you know, and if that is, I don't feel attented to. I don't feel prioritized. You know, he's not considering my love languages. He's not willing to sit down with me and work through things, or I suggested couples therapy, and he is uninterested. You know, I'm feeling disconnected in the bedroom. But when I try to talk to him. He's not receptive or listening. You know, all these examples of what people have called in and described situation or it's like, man, that's how do I get my. How do I get my partner to X, right? If there's something that you are missing and you can't get your partner to respond, then that's a problem, that's a concern. On the flip side, if it's this, I just don't know, I just don't feel a way I want to feel. And everything they're doing is great. I'm not saying you have to be with, you know, like, you know, love is blind, you know, it's just like, I don't know. For some people, looks matter and like, if you're not into someone, you're not into someone. You know, this is a person you've dated for two years, you moved in with them, you've been living with them. I don't know what caused you to make those choices. There's some attraction there, I'm assuming. And so you have to ask yourself, are, are you just someone who gets antsy a year or two into a relationship? And as things slow down, as all relationships do, and as you get comfortable, does comfortability create boredom in your mind? Do you not feel then validated in a way or sparked or excited in. In ways that you have in more toxic relationships that have given you an opportunity to win people's affection, to chase people? And in this lack of safety, you feel this excitement and spark because it's exhilarating. You know, there's a reason why people go to haunted houses and theme parks and go on roller coasters because what makes some of that fun is the exhilaration of the I'm not safe. You could be a dating thrill seeker. That would be a you problem. And I think there are a lot of people out there who are dating thrill seekers. They tell themselves they're looking for relationships and they're looking for love. And they're more responsive and receptive to instability in toxic situations and the chase of the relationship. And that's when they feel that excitement and spark. And so if that's you, you know, then that's a you problem, then that, that's something you need to address because it will not matter who you date. You will always feel this feeling, especially when you're in a healthy situation.

Katie (37:28)

That makes sense.

Nick (37:29)

So what do you think it is?

Katie (37:32)

I think it's both.

Nick (37:33)

All right, so what is he not doing that you have asked him to do that. You can't get him to do that you think are healthy requests.

Katie (37:42)

I guess just love language stuff.

Nick (37:45)

You must have a specific example of a time where you wanted to connect with him about love languages and he wasn't receptive to it.

Katie (37:52)

No, he's always receptive. There's just not a lot of follow through.

Nick (37:56)

Have you talked to him about this? Have you sat down? Can you give me an example?

Katie (38:01)

Yeah, just. Hey, remember when I told you that my birthday is really important to me and I would really like. I know you're not a gift guy, but it really mean a lot to me. If you put some thought, plan something, okay. And he'll agree, he'll understand, but then there's no follow through.

Nick (38:19)

So when your birthday came, what happened?

Katie (38:21)

The response that I usually get, it's just kind of lazy, to be honest with you. He smokes a lot of weed. He's a bit of a stoner, so he's got that overall, like, sure, just cadence. That's very monotone. It's just very like, oh, I'm sorry. I'll try to do better.

Nick (38:35)

So, like, what happened on your birthday?

Katie (38:37)

Nothing really. Just went to a restaurant nearby. My decision.

Nick (38:41)

You didn't feel celebrated?

Katie (38:42)

No, not at all.

Nick (38:43)

He was like, yeah, I'll do better.

Katie (38:47)

Yeah. So my 40th is next week. I'm looking forward to seeing what he's doing. Just kind of gave it a pulse check. He has nothing planned.

Nick (38:54)

Are you trying to set him up for success?

Katie (38:57)

Yes.

Nick (38:57)

Like what? What I do.

Katie (38:59)

I gave him a list of things I would love to do.

Nick (39:02)

You did? Okay. And how did you communicate that?

Katie (39:05)

I stuck it on our fridge and said, here you go, making it easy for you, and slapped his ass. He said, thanks and laughed.

Nick (39:11)

Oh, okay. Do you think he's gonna do it?

Host 2 (39:14)

No.

Nick (39:14)

How old is he?

Katie (39:16)

He is 34. He's six years younger. Five years younger.

Nick (39:21)

Okay.

Katie (39:22)

And it shows. It really shows. I feel like I'm hand holding a lot and I'm not dating him for his potential, but he is always very receptive and open to any conversation.

Host 1 (39:32)

And.

Nick (39:33)

Well, he's 34. He's not 16, so I know he's younger than you, but he's like, he's a full fledged adult. But that being said, then the question is like, do you still act like, do you still feel like you're mothering him?

Katie (39:43)

No, I. I definitely try not to step into that role. Even if it's tempting.

Host 2 (39:49)

Well, listen, I mean, that's a.

Nick (39:50)

That's a Valid. That is a valid frustration that you, you can have. You know, I don't know if that's a fireable offense if everything else is great, you know, he's not great on your birthdays. But again, I don't know, what about the other 364 days out of the year? Like what, what does he do to make you feel loved and cared for and considered?

Katie (40:11)

Always listens. His he's present gives me that quality of time.

Nick (40:17)

And do you feel loved by him?

Katie (40:19)

Blanket? Yes, I feel very loved. Okay, so is it okay that I'm settling for this feeling? Because it feels settling.

Nick (40:26)

I mean, I don't. Again, like, I think it's a valid frustration that like birthdays is a love language. And I think it's not that hard, especially since you're making it easy for him to do a couple things off that list. And I think you have every right to be frustrated with that if everything else is great. And he's also making you feel loved in other areas that you receive love. No, I don't think this is a fireable offense. But that's not for me to decide. Let me ask you this. Like, let's say he does things something on that list, does that change? Does it answer all your questions? Do you now feel the excitement that you, you're saying in your head? No. So like, again, so that's not even really your problem. The thing that you're say you're not feeling. I am concerned for you. That you can only gain that feeling from toxic situations. Do you think you are a relationship thrill seeker?

Kate (41:23)

No.

Nick (41:24)

Why not?

Katie (41:25)

Because I'd rather be alone than have anything that's not authentic or doesn't feel good with me.

Nick (41:31)

Have you always been that way? Okay, so then when you say I've gotten you out of a lot of toxic situations, what did you mean by that?

Katie (41:40)

I was referring to one specific terrible relationship I was in and I was also living with that person.

Nick (41:46)

And how long did it take you to remove yourself from that relationship?

Kate (41:52)

Months.

Katie (41:53)

Months. Nine months, probably all the things that.

Nick (41:56)

Keep us stuck in bad situations and relationships. Now that you're removed from all that, like if you could look back objectively, when would be the first time you should have left?

Katie (42:06)

Four months in.

Nick (42:07)

In four months in as opposed to how long in?

Katie (42:09)

A year and a half.

Nick (42:11)

Year and a half. So like it took you a. A year plus to do what now you look back realize you should have done? I understand that like people who are toxic have a, are good at gaslighting us and you manipulate being manipulative and, and making us work, you know, but at this, you are acknowledging that, you know, you could have left sooner. Right? And like, you know, whether you want to blame them or, you know, take accountability, you're, you're, you're better off just focusing on the accountability part. And I guess that's the question you have to ask yourself is like, what part of you was responsible for staying in that relationship a year plus longer than you know you should have?

Katie (42:56)

It's the same fear that I have of why I'm staying right now, which is I'm a people pleaser. I don't want to hurt anybody.

Nick (43:04)

But what do you want? I mean, I don't know, what do you want out of a relationship?

Katie (43:07)

I want what I have, but I want more thrill, more inspiration.

Nick (43:13)

So thrill and inspiration. And how in your perfect world, how could your partner help you do that?

Katie (43:20)

Grab the car keys, let's get in the car and let's go somewhere we've never been.

Nick (43:24)

Why can't you do that? Why can't you do that?

Katie (43:26)

I have and I do. But, but sometimes I want someone to light a fire under my ass.

Nick (43:32)

Okay.

Katie (43:33)

I'm always the one with the matches.

Nick (43:36)

Okay, well, if that is a huge priority for you, then why aren't you looking that for that and dating, I'm guessing this, your current boyfriend has never done that.

Katie (43:46)

No.

Nick (43:46)

Exactly. Right. So, like, if someone is, has that type of thrill seeker personality that's not a toxic person, just like they're spontaneous, that will be showcased early in a relationship. And then the question is, do they maintain that spontaneity or is it just like something I'm going to do, Date one to impress this girl, but it never happens later. Like, if they didn't do it in the first six months, they definitely ain't doing it. It's because it's not who they are. They're not a spontaneous person. But if that is such a big priority for you, why aren't you looking for that early in relationships?

Katie (44:22)

I guess I'm just kind of. I can't expect to have it all. So I'm weighing out what I got versus what I want.

Nick (44:28)

Fair enough. Okay. But my question to you is, look, listen, I, I value in my relationships being a team and having a partner. Right. And all aspects of my relationship. And I value the fact that my wife, I always feel like I have a partner, right. In addition to, like feeling safe and not feeling I'm competing with her, I really feel like she's in it with me. And despite whatever problems come our way, whether it's problems that are outside problems or problems that we bring from our own bullshit into our relationship, I feel like I have someone who, even if it's our fault, whether she does something or I do something, our goal is to be a team and solve our problems. Does that make sense? And that, more than anything, is something that I prioritize. So even when she does something or I do something that brings us, you know, that I'm not happy with, or, you know, there are obviously things that I do constantly because I have bad habits, or she, like, you know, it's just like, she just doesn't do. She's never gonna do it, you know, And I didn't like it then. I'm never gonna like it, but I just either accept it, get over it, but because big picture, I know that, you know, the thing I value the most, she does, right? So knowing that we can't have it all, you're gonna have to decide what's super important to you. And that's why I bet I'm back to, like, listen, you're talking as if spontaneity is the end all, be all. You really can't be happy unless you feel a sense of thrill from your relationship. And you need that. Sometimes that come from your partner. And I am not here to say whether that's a good priority to have or a bad priority to have. You have the right for that to be your thing. But if that is your thing, then you should look for that thing. If it's something where it's a nice to have, where it's just like, it would be cool if he was more spontaneous. But you know what? Honestly, I can be spontaneous, or I can have friends who can be spontaneous. And that thrill of spontaneity, all I really need is him to be willing every once in a while to join me on my spontaneity right, to not be a buzzkill. I want him to at least support my desire to have spontaneity in my life because he's just not a spontaneous person. But he is a considerate person. He is a kind person. He is a thoughtful person. He shows up. He treats me with respect. I have found over the course of my 20 years of dating that is harder to find than the spontaneous person who can then still ghost me, be rude to me, kind of be an asshole. But they are spontaneous, you know, so, like, you're right. You know, you just have to decide which one's more important to you. And then accept that, and then find other ways to get the thing that you still want. Because you can accept that your partner's not spontaneous, but you don't have to accept to never do spontaneous things.

Katie (47:27)

Can I ask you a question?

Nick (47:28)

Yeah.

Katie (47:28)

On your way to the altar, did you have any just normal human doubt or were you 100% certain of what you were doing?

Nick (47:37)

Well, I honestly didn't think about that, to be honest. I didn't obsess over am I making the right decision? I made my decision, and I felt good about our connection making that decision. And I felt confident that I was marrying someone who prioritized us staying connected and felt as uncomfortable and anxious being disconnected with me as I did with her. Because I can't predict the future. Right. And I couldn't predict, you know, the way you're describing it, as so many people do, is like, am I doing the right thing? How do I, you know, I didn't doubt how I felt about her, and I wasn't unsure about how she felt about me. It's so heavy the way you're presenting that question, like, am I making the right decision? Who? I don't know. Off the information I had, I felt good about it. I also accept that, like, I don't know, like, things change. I know what matters to me, me. I'm very confident in my priorities, and I know them, you know. And so when I reflect about my relationship, I. At the stage of life that I am, I know it's important to me, and I know what I can live with that is frustrating to me. I know what to accept about my relationship and things that, like our strengths of weaknesses of my wife or strength of strengths and weaknesses that are mine. And the things that I prioritize most in a relationship, I feel and felt certainly when I got married, very confident that I had. That doesn't mean it was perfect. Doesn't mean that she never pissed me off, doesn't mean that we had never hurt each other. It just meant that I felt safe. And I felt like what mattered most to me in my relationship, I had. And I felt good about maintaining that thing because it felt like it was something that that came naturally to both of us. I didn't have to convince my wife to prioritize us. I didn't have to convince my wife that when we were disconnected, we had to reconnect. I felt that it was as much of a priority for her as it was for me. Does that make sense?

Katie (49:42)

Yeah. You've given me a lot to chew on. Thank you.

Nick (49:45)

I think you need to be more certain about what matters to you, what you prioritize in relationships. And I think then you have to learn how to accept the things that you might not have. Again, the pet peeves versus non negotiable. I think you aren't quite sure which is which when it comes to your relationships.

Katie (50:03)

Yeah, it's the people pleaser in me. I can be very accommodating. I can be very adjusting. Let me make sure you're happy. And then to the point where I'm like, oh, I forgot about myself here.

Nick (50:14)

Sure. But I don't know, I guess to be honest, you're the one who's telling me he, he's. He does a lot for you and he's very considerate. And again, birthdays aside, I'm just wondering what else is he not doing?

Katie (50:26)

I think it's just a difference of lifestyle. I don't love the way he spends his downtime. Like I said, he smokes a lot.

Nick (50:33)

And that can be annoying. But like, it doesn't matter what he does and how much he does it. These are two very different statements. I don't like my boyfriend smokes a lot of weed and plays a lot of video games. But I also like, you know, he makes me feel loved, considered, blah blah, blah. I think that's a very different statement than my boyfriend smokes so much weed and plays so many video games that it often feels like it's a bigger priority than me. I don't feel attented, I don't feel heard. He's not present, yada yada yada, it is coming in the way. And there are a lot of women out there or people in relationships who feel that like they feel like their boyfriend is, or partner is so obsessed with video games and smoking weed and hanging out their buddy or fantasy football that like that or golf. They feel like they are deprioritized below those things. But I'm not hearing that from you. I am hearing he makes me feel all those things. He also plays a lot of video games and smokes weed, which annoys me and I kind of get the ick when I see it. But honestly, I also enjoy some of my free time when he's playing video games. I just wish, you know, instead of playing video games, he rebuilt cars or did this or, you know, got into sculpting or whatever. Like that's a pet peeve. You're nodding your head yes. So like, I guess what I'm saying is learn how until you learn how to change that you're never going to be happy because you'll always find something about your partner that annoys the fuck out of you.

Kate (51:57)

You.

Nick (51:58)

And if you choose to critique that and wish your partner did something else less icky or less annoying and not focus on how they make you feel prioritized, safe, and all these things, then I don't know how you're ever going to be happy.

Katie (52:13)

Yeah, you're right.

Nick (52:14)

So I don't. I don't think that's people pleasing. And I would be careful how you frame your frustrations with your partner because when you say people pleasing, you're painting yourself as a victim in the situation. And I don't. Doesn't sound like you're a victim.

Katie (52:30)

I feel like I'm in polluted soil. I would like nice, healthy soil for my plant to grow.

Nick (52:37)

So what is unhealthy about your soil? Because, to be honest, I think you are.

Katie (52:44)

I think that being with people who are above you, if not at the least at your level, intellectually or emotionally, there's not a lot of room to grow with that person without always trying to pull them up to your level. And there's a part of me that really wants someone who is above me.

Host 2 (53:03)

Okay.

Nick (53:03)

I mean, that's okay. Fair enough. But then you should be looking for that.

Katie (53:08)

Yeah. So I'm just gonna kind of weigh out. Like you said, what matters most to me is that something I can live without or not.

Nick (53:15)

So do you think your boyfriend's stupid?

Katie (53:17)

He's just not the brightest.

Nick (53:19)

Okay.

Katie (53:20)

He's really been handheld a lot through life.

Nick (53:22)

Lazy or stupid, it. There's a difference. I mean, at 40 years old, you shouldn't be figuring this stuff out. You should already know this. And you shouldn't be spending two years in a relationship and living with someone for a year and a half to realize that you don't feel that they're not your equal and you don't feel intellectually stimulated by them to the point that how they treat you is less relevant than that. You should know that by now. I want you to be careful that you're not someone who's looking for reasons to justify not feeling the spark or the excitement you are giving. I've made a decision. I kind of want to break up with him. And I know he's good for me, but I need to justify breaking up with him so I don't feel bad about breaking up with a good guy.

Katie (54:07)

No, I don't want to break up with him.

Nick (54:10)

I just hope at 34 years old, like, this is his brain. He's not going to magically become smarter. If you think he's a little lazy, he might be a little bit more like. But at 34 years old, this is kind of who he is, who he is. Like, you know, it takes a long time to get to know someone, but it doesn't take that long to kind of get a general idea of their personality or some, you know, six months, you know, and then the get to know the deeper in the weeds might be like the. Well, wait, you didn't tell me that. And they're like, well, I didn't think that, you know, I didn't think that. You know, all these like, little kind of things and idiosyncrasies about who they are and how they handle. Handle stresses. But like, I've always been a little aloof and I've always not closed cabinet doors and I've always been very direct. And like now they kind of learned that about me in the first four or five months and I haven't really changed, you know, like, some of the things I've learned how to manage that a little bit better. But like, I am who I am. So pet peeves, non negotiables. I think you need to really figure out what matters. I know, like I said, I know what matters to me in relationships. And that makes it very simple for me. This whole idea, you know, did you know when you were walking down the aisle, this uncertainty that you are kind of feeling, that is. That is a you problem. Because you don't know. You don't know with confidence what, what your priorities are, because no one can like, predict the future and no one can give you absolute certainty, certainly not in a marriage. And your uncertainty comes from your lack of conviction about what matters to you. And you're kind of like, well, you know, he's. He's this, but he's that. And I don't know, like you, you're just like you. You're wondering, I don't know if I should choose like a guy who plays video games. And I feel like he's not necessarily my intellectual equal in yada yada. And I'm just saying it shouldn't take you that long to figure that out.

Katie (55:58)

My priority has not changed. It's definitely to feel safe with someone.

Nick (56:02)

I'm not so sure that you actually believe that.

Kate (56:05)

What?

Nick (56:05)

I'm not so sure that you actually believe that.

Katie (56:08)

Absolutely. That's the foundation for anything else to be.

Nick (56:11)

Yeah, but the way you talk is that you discount that so much and how it actually makes you feel and this whole conversation is about based on what your boyfriend doesn't make you feel. And what I'm saying is that I didn't need to call into or talk to a therapist or a friend or a podcast and say Natalie makes me feel safe. But that's not how you talk. You say the thing that you know you're supposed to say. You know, you're supposed to prioritize safety because you haven't had it, but on a day to day basis that doesn't actually make you feel good or happy in your relationship. You are focused on what you're not getting. I don't focus on what I'm not getting out of my relationship with Natalie. The nitpicky pet peeve things that I have, I know they're pet peeves. I've accepted those pet peeves and I am constantly reminding myself that my non negotiables that I have have my wife meets those and that makes me feel safe and secure and happy. And you are all over the map on what is a pet peeve and a non negotiable. And you, and, and the things you say are your non negotiables don't make you actually feel happy. And you need to have a better understanding and honest conversation with yourself about what that is and maybe hold yourself accountable to figuring out why you on a day to day basis prioritize your pet peeves over your non negotiables, which people do all the time and demand to feel a certain way, even though you can say out loud, oh, but I feel safe and I know that's the most important thing, but oh my God, there's this thing I'm not feeling and I want to feel this thing and I don't know how to feel this thing. And I think it's because he's, you know. You know, like you've mentioned spontaneity, you've mentioned weed smoking, you've mentioned video games. Like you're kind of all over the map with your critique of what not getting. You mentioned mentioned people pleasing and like, I don't, to be honest, I am not sure what, what he could do differently to give you that feeling, you know. Yeah, you could be not spontaneous on your birthday, but like, you know, what if that just never comes around? I mean he, he, that's bare minimum shit. He could definitely do that. But you know, I, I don't really think that's the thing. If he goes to you and, and does one of the things on your list.

Host 2 (58:29)

You would be like, well, thanks for.

Nick (58:31)

Doing that, but you wouldn't feel the spark or exhilaration. You would be like, well, I told you to do that.

Katie (58:36)

That. Yeah, that is how I'm gonna feel.

Nick (58:39)

Yeah, but that's a you problem.

Katie (58:41)

Yeah. All right, I'm gonna. I'll get my together. I'll figure this all out.

Nick (58:48)

All right. I hope I'm not being too harsh on you, but, you know, I just, I want, you know, listen, I want you to. I want you to be happy and I want you to be happy with whatever it is, the relationship you decide to be in. And I don't want you wasting time living with someone or being in a relationship for two years if there's no chance for it to be successful. You don't want that. You don't want to do that to him. The people pleaser in you, you know, you mentioned, oh, I stayed in relationships because I didn't want to hurt people. Well, you're only hurting yourself and your partners by accepting things that are ultimately never going to make you happy. But you have to again, really be honest with yourself about why you're not happy. And again, I really think you are. Are over prioritizing pet peeves. Your desire or need for a thrill or something spontaneous or exciting, I think is over prioritizing. I guess. I don't know.

Katie (59:40)

Okay.

Nick (59:42)

All right.

Katie (59:43)

All right. Thank you.

Nick (59:44)

Thanks for your time.

Katie (59:45)

Bye.

Nick (59:46)

Bye. Bye.

Host 2 (59:48)

When life gets busy, working out is often the first thing to go. And that's why you need to turn to tonal. Tonal is the complete. At home gym, it's all you need. All my friends are using it. We're getting it up at the lake. It' amazing the all the classes they have. It's incredible workouts. If you're a busy person, stop wasting time going to the gym and then changing all that stuff. It's an incredibly sleek design that's made for all types of people in fitness. Men, women, Whatever level you are at, tonal has you covered. Tonal provides the convenience of a full gym and the guidance of a personal trainer anytime at home. With one sleek system designed to reduce your mental load, Tonal is the ultimate strength training system, helping you to focus less on workout planning and more on getting results. With a quick assessment, Tonal sets the optimal weight for every move and adjusts in one increments as you get stronger. So you're always challenged. It's really. The technology of tonal is incredible. It's awesome. I can't tell you how many people I know rave about it. I'm excited to get start working out.

Nick (60:43)

At the lake with my Tonal gym.

Host 2 (60:45)

It really is for all levels of people, the entire family. Get your family the gift of fitness. It's absolutely awesome. Black Friday is here with Tonal's biggest sale of the year. For a limited time, Tonal is offering Our listeners winners 1200 off your tonal purchase that is tunnel.com for 1200 off your purchase. You won't get a bigger tunnel sale this year, so act fast. Tonal.com for twelve hundred dollars off.

Host 1 (61:11)

While almost every American has some sort of relationship with soda from their childhood, Olipop is the new kind of soda that combines the classic soda taste with the benefits of functional ingredient blend to support digestive health. Olipop is reimagining soda with high fiber and 2 to 5 grams of sugar per can. While the Yetis are back, they've brought along a third limited Ed flavor fan favorite, Crisp Apple. All the festive flavors are less than 50 calories with just 2 to 5 grams of sugar and up to 9 grams of fiber for digestive health support. No matter how you celebrate this time of year, Ollipop's holiday sodas make the season brighter, refreshing and more fun. Bring the Yetis home with a single can from the refrigerated section and a four pack from the soda aisle or a 15 pack from Costco for the ultimate holiday celebration. I definitely am a Diet Coke girly, but with trying to get pregnant I have been trying to cut out all the things that are awful for me and one of them those unfortunately has been Diet Coke. But fortunately for me, Olipop makes a vintage cola that tastes just like Diet Coke with high fiber and low sugar, only 2 to 5 grams of sugar from natural sources. It's no added sugar. I'm skipping out on just all of the nasty things that are in regular sodas and benefiting from so many things that are in Ollipop. Get a free can of Ollipop. Buy any two cans of Ollipop in store and we'll pay you back for one. Works on any flavor any retailer, including the Yeti Limited edition cans. Head to drinkollipop.com Olipop is sold online at drinkolipop.com and Amazon and available in almost 50,000 retailers nationwide including Costco, Walmart, Target, Publix, Whole Foods, Kroger and Hev.

Host 2 (62:41)

This time of year, it's sensory overload.

Nick (62:43)

Everywhere, but one feeling we're still chasing.

Host 2 (62:46)

Is cozy and Bombas has The socks.

Nick (62:48)

Slippers and tees and basically everything to get you there.

Host 2 (62:53)

Honestly, there is something weirdly therapeutic about fresh socks.

Nick (62:57)

The comfort on your feet, it feels so good.

Host 2 (62:59)

And the sock scientists at Bombas have.

Nick (63:01)

Found a way to channel that energy into everything from slippers with sink in.

Host 2 (63:05)

Cushioning to satisfyingly weighty tees.

Nick (63:07)

And that feeling, it doesn't stop after one wear. It keeps on going. Everything that Bombas makes is with the highest quality especially, I mean, they're certainly known for their socks, but their slippers and tees are also fantastic. And if you're looking to get cozy this holiday season, treat yourself to something that Bombas makes also makes a great gift. It's an amazing stocking stuffer. Everyone in your family just get em Bombas. It's one of those gifts that everyone needs but no one asks for because, you know, they're just not thinking about it. But really, they will absolutely love anything you get them at Bombas this holiday season. Whether it's slippers, whether it's socks, they have it all.

Host 2 (63:40)

Their socks are cozy and comfortable for that staying in. But they also have dress socks, really all kind of socks made with the.

Nick (63:46)

Highest of quality that will all feel great on your feet. Protect your feet people, and do it with Bombas.

Host 2 (63:51)

Head over to bombas.com v I a.

Nick (63:53)

L l and use code v I.

Host 2 (63:54)

A l l for 20 off your first purchase.

Nick (63:57)

That's b o m b-a dash.com v I a l l code v I a l l ll at checkout. How's it going?

Kate (64:02)

Good. How are you?

Nick (64:03)

Good. What's your name?

Kate (64:04)

My name is Kate. I'm 30.

Nick (64:05)

How can I help?

Kate (64:06)

My boyfriend is paying his parents way okay through life and I feel like we're at a bit of a crossroads. I guess in the beginning things didn't really seem like a huge issue to me. I in fact, kind of thought that it was sweet. I said, wow, like, he really cares about his mom and dad. He's very family oriented, which are all qualities that I share. As, like time progressed and as years went on, I realized that it maybe wasn't such a positive thing. And then I also realized that unfortunately it wasn't just financial help. It was emotional help. It was physical help. It was across the board, like borderline parenting.

Nick (64:49)

The parents explain to me why that's a problem. And I'm not saying it's not, but I just want to understand.

Kate (64:54)

Yeah.

Nick (64:55)

Why that's a problem for you.

Kate (64:56)

I feel like financially it wasn't a problem until we committed to each other in a different way. We got engaged in June. I feel like with an engagement there's so many things like, and feelings that come with it. We both work, we both work full time and we both want children, we both want a house, we both want to take trips. And I'm not really worried about necessarily being like 50, 50. Like I'm aware that there are things that I'm going to want to do and I'm going to have to pay for those things and like vice versa. But I'm just worried that this is obviously far off but like I want to send my kids to college. I don't want them to have to take out loans. And it would be really annoying for me if I had to take out loans because my fiance was still paying his parents mortgage.

Nick (65:46)

What is his parents situation and why is he paying their mortgage?

Kate (65:50)

He gave me a really long winded story a number of years ago how when there was, there was financial crisis like across the US back in 2009, the market crashed, everybody lost everything, blah, blah, blah. I guess his parents never recovered from it or handled their finances poorly during that time. Acted out of emotion rather than sitting put and riding it out, which I think a lot of people did. And I know that stuff wasn't good then. I remember my parents hearing them downstairs having those conversations of like we need to buckle down and be mindful.

Nick (66:25)

Do his parents work?

Kate (66:26)

His dad worked for Verizon for a number of years and then got laid off in 2007. His mom never worked. She did like odd jobs. Like I think that she did dog walking at one point. She just, she was a stay at home mom.

Nick (66:40)

How old are his parents? Ballpark.

Kate (66:42)

His dad's turning 80 in like the next couple of months. Yeah. And his mom is in her late 60s.

Nick (66:51)

60S, okay, so there.

Kate (66:52)

I mean, which is kind of interesting because I know that we're both. Well, he's 36 and I'm 30. Both of our parents are older. My dad is about to be 80 next year and my mom is turning 69 this year. So our parents are actually similar ages. We're just a couple years apart, which never bothered me.

Nick (67:12)

Outside of sending your kids to college. 18, you know, over 18 years from now. Kids that you currently don't have. But I know that they want kids. What are some things that your fiance prioritizing and taking care of his parents is stopping you from doing? Or is it the idea of it?

Kate (67:30)

What do you mean stopping me from.

Nick (67:32)

You said, you know, you want to take Trips. You want to do this? Like, has. Has. At any point you've said to your fiance, I would love us to do this. Can we do that? And he's like, can't afford it because I got to pay for this.

Kate (67:46)

This. It's not necessarily. There's. There's never been him saying, I can't afford it. He does well for himself. And that's. That's never been a problem. And it's. It's mostly, like, I keep hearing, it's. It's the emotional toll that they take. Like, just the other day, he came home after being at their house during the day. He was so emotionally drained that he just, like, sat and stared at the television. And I just said, are you okay? You know, do you want to talk about it? And he said, no. They're just so exhausting to around. And it's like, I don't know. I. You know what? If you have the money and you can help your family do it. If I had the money and I had. And I could do it, I would do things for my family that I don't do. It's not the money thing, really. It's. They're just emotionally. They're manipulative.

Nick (68:34)

Manipulative. How.

Kate (68:36)

Can I give you, like, a story, for example? Sure.

Nick (68:38)

Yeah.

Kate (68:39)

Okay. So a few months ago, we were going to a wedding, and his mom and dad were also invited to the wedding. Their. Their new thing is that they don't like driving anywhere, so both their sons and. And his sister have to pick them up and bring them wherever they're going. Now, none of them. They don't have any, like, physical disabilities. Like, there's no. They both have their licenses. They both have cars. They just want to be picked up, want to be brought places, want to be brought every. Everywhere. The city that we're in, getting home is about like, an hour and a half to two hours, depending on traffic. So we had to drive from where we are in the city to their house to pick them up pretty much backwards past the city, past where we were living, to bring them to this wedding and then bring them home that night. And the whole car ride going to this wedding, they were yelling and screaming at each other, fighting, and I was just, like, sitting in the backseat. Like, I was, like, mortified.

Nick (69:43)

Why were you mortified?

Kate (69:45)

Because I didn't grow up in an environment where my parents fought like that.

Nick (69:49)

But, like, is that. It's not like you. Your best friend who didn't know his. Your. Your future in laws, your husband and them. It Was just you guys, Right?

Kate (69:57)

Well, it was just, like, the way that they talk to each other. She calls him an idiot.

Nick (70:01)

Yeah. And I get.

Kate (70:02)

Tells her he hates her.

Nick (70:03)

Totally get that. It was, like, probably an uncomfortable situation. Totally get. Totally get that. Understand that you weren't in love with it. Mortified is more like you're embarrassing. Embarrassed.

Kate (70:12)

I am embarrassed. I'm embarrassed even though no one's around.

Nick (70:15)

Because I feel it's not a thing.

Kate (70:17)

It. It feels that way to know that, like, this is something that I consistently put myself through and something that is normal. Like, it's embarrassing to me that it is normal for them.

Nick (70:29)

You know, this is an interesting call. You're gonna have to figure out your limits and boundaries. Totally get that how his parents speak to each other makes you feel uncomfortable. I'm sure there are elements of, like, probably even empathy to your fiance of imagining his childhood, yada, yada, whatever. But this is the situation that exists, and so you need to be really careful. I think how you handle that and not make it worse than it needs to be and not. Not make things that aren't a you problem. A you problem. The financial aspect of your fiance taking care of. Of his parents, you know, to me, that really comes down to, can he afford it? Right before you guys met, if he's taking care of his parents, you know, you know, it's his money. He has every right to do it. You know, kind of a fine line as you meet someone and get into a serious relationship with them, and now you're dating him, and then he asks you to marry him, and then all of a sudden. And all of a sudden, that calculus changes, which is like, okay, well, if we do get married and we do have kids, if you guys are planning for your future, like, you certainly have a conversation there. But it really comes down to, like, yeah, can he afford it? It is a fine. I mean, I take care of my parents. You know, I'm. I'm also in a very. I'm in a very fortunate position to do that. And Natalie and I are very fortunate. Fortunate position to take care of people we love. We don't have to make any other sacrifices. And also, like, you know, like, we want things in return for our generosity in a way. You know, our. Both of our parents are very helpful, and yada, yada, yada. Our situation aside is, you know, listen, you came into a situation that already existed.

Kate (72:09)

Yeah.

Nick (72:10)

And you can't change where he came from. And I would just kind of be careful how you kind of. How you go about this. Right. I don't think your fiance, for example, loves that his parents are arguing in the backseat. And as you've mentioned, he is emotional distraught by his, his, how his parents treat each other. Right. I'm sure he wants to take care of his parents and feels good about taking care of his parents. And there's, you know, I also think there's a sense of like, I don't, you know, for all his parents faults, I imagine they did a lot for him. My parents certainly did a lot for me. You know, Natalie has her own childhood and her parents were very different than my parents. It doesn't do me any good to judge her family or, you know, if the if, especially if things were different than how my parents were or yada yada, yada. And again, like, I kind of feel like you need a little bit more empathy for your husband in the situation that he is in which it sounds like you have some empathy. But like in that car ride situation, I feel like your only real emotional response that you should have had, which is to when you and your fiance were alone, to say, like, how are you doing? Like, you know, it sucks that your parents had to argue. You're kind of making it a you problem. But like I felt mortified. Not even your parents, you know, the car ride home.

Kate (73:37)

I did mention it to him and like, I do want you to know I do have a lot of empathy and like, I do check in. But I also, he has said things to me were basically like, I'll say, hey, how's everything going? He'll say, like, please do not talk to me about this. I am exhausted by this situation. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to hear your thoughts on it.

Nick (73:56)

To me, like, I don't know why he's saying this, but like, if you are in any way making this a you problem, then I could see why. Maybe it's possible that your fiance is like, please don't say anything because it's not helpful. Maybe you're doing everything perfect and he's still pushing you away way. I don't think it's fair to you. If your fiance wants you to be an emotional support partner, then he has to allow you to be helpful. But you also have to be helpful and you have to not create bigger problems for him. But what he doesn't want is to have to deal with his parents and then deal with you.

Kate (74:38)

No, I know. And it really isn't that way. Like, like, I've kept a lot of it If. If anything, I. I would say, like, I've kept, like, 90% of it to myself. I've. I've talked with one girlfriend about it. I just. Because she. She's my closest friend. And I've kind of said, you know, this is what's going on. I don't really know. I don't know what to think about it. But in the beginning of our relationship, he told me, I think, maybe a little too much. And. And it's not that I felt that way. I think. Think that he realized that he told me too much, because then I think that this is, like, a normal human reaction. I was kind of like, well, what the heck's going on? Like, do you. Do you not want to be doing this? Like, have you talked to them about how this makes you feel? Like, kind of just stuff like that. And he's always said, like, oh, my family, we don't do communication. We just handle it. And I'm like, okay, well, you know what? It is what it is. And. And there were periods of time where all he ever did was just complain and complain about them. And I've never given. I've never, like, given. Gave it, like, an opinion on it. I've never said. I think I feel to him. I'm always just like, hey, what's going on? Like, you all right? Because if he comes in and he's. He looks like he wants to burst into tears, I'm like, are you okay? Because if I didn't ask him if he was okay, I would feel bad.

Host 2 (76:03)

I think it's great that you're asking.

Nick (76:05)

It's okay. And he. He should.

Kate (76:07)

Yeah.

Nick (76:08)

He can't shut you out, and it's not fair to you for him to walk into the room as you're describing clearly emotionally, like, frustrated, and then, like, shut you out, assuming that you're not making a bad situation worse.

Kate (76:21)

Yeah.

Nick (76:22)

And if you really are coming in helpful, just wanting to listen. No notes, not critiquing his decisions in listening first. I mean, eventually you might be offering feedback, especially when comes the emotional part, which is like, I can say no to my parents.

Kate (76:38)

Yeah. That's not really a thing.

Nick (76:40)

If he can't say no to his parents but he's playing the role of parent, then that's a problem.

Kate (76:44)

It's kind of feeling that way. And I think that there's still a lot that he doesn't share with me. But another, like, weird kind of thing is we were in the car still going to this wedding, and she said to him, oh, by the way, you know, I need a new car. I need a brand new car. My car's not working. Working. You should see this. When you get home, the next time you turn it on and you see how awful it's running, I thought, she.

Nick (77:06)

Doesn'T drive, literally in those situations.

Kate (77:11)

I mean, I was like, oh, my God.

Nick (77:14)

So in that situation, is your partner give you the space to share an opinion?

Kate (77:18)

No, I keep my mouth shut because I have been villainized one too many times.

Nick (77:23)

By who?

Kate (77:24)

They just make comments to me or not. Maybe not in a little while, but it's been some time. Mostly because I keep my mouth shut now. Now. But there's been things I've said like, oh, hey, that's not nice. Or, you know, because they'll be. They'll say things to him like, oh, you look like you're gaining weight, or do something stupid. And I'm like, hey. I'm like, leave him alone. He's fine.

Nick (77:40)

Yeah, that seems fair.

Kate (77:41)

And they're like, oh, you're gonna stick up for him? Like, I don't know. They just say things to me. So I keep my mouth shut just because I really don't want it to get turned on me at any point, which is, like, advice that my friend has given me. She's like, if you keep your mouth shut, as long as it's something where it's not going against, like, your moral compass, it's not worth it. It's not worth it because they'll just not like you. It will never be. They'll be mad at him. They just won't like you, and they'll make your life difficult.

Nick (78:07)

Yeah. I mean, there might be some truth to that, but I do think you deserve to feel like you and your part, your fiance are on the same page. I do feel like when it's just the two of you and he's not emotionally triggered, you could just say, hey, you know, can we talk about mom and dad? Dad. You know, his mom and dad. And so, you know, and just say, listen, ultimately, I. I just want to be a supportive partner. There are times where, like, I. You know, I want to feel like you and I can talk about things. I do want to be able to defend you if I feel like your parents are saying something. But, like, if you don't need me to defend you, then let me know. But, like, you know, there was a time when Natalie was pregnant. Like, every male in her family was, like, talking about how big.

Kate (78:49)

I remember this story because I listen. I'm a listener. I remember Remember this story? You've told this?

Nick (78:54)

Yeah. And, like, not that Natalie needed me, but I did. I think she was okay with me being like, what are you guys doing? You need to feel like you're his top priority. He is certainly. You know, I would have a problem with Nelly being like, I don't want us to take care of your parents anymore. I'd been like. I'd be like, whoa. What? Huh? So, again, like, it is a fine line between you being helpful versus you just creating more problems for him.

Host 2 (79:17)

And.

Nick (79:18)

But you have the right to just say, hey, I don't want to be pushed out. Out. I don't want to be told that I never can voice an opinion, and I ultimately just want to be supportive for you. But, like, I do want to feel like we're on the same page. You know, you let me know when you're triggered by your parents, and if you don't want to talk about it, we don't have to talk about it. But, like, when Mom's, like, saying, you need to buy her a car, I want to feel like we can be a part of that. I can be a part of that conversation.

Kate (79:46)

It doesn't really feel that way for me.

Nick (79:48)

That's not fair to you. So you need to feel included where your partner can at least open up to you. You know, you feel like, if nothing else, you can be a sounding board. Maybe not when he's triggered. Like, you know, there's a time and a place to have these conversations, but you have to feel, like, not complete outsider. You know, it's not. It's not fair for you to just shut up and be quiet constantly when it comes to his parents. So it. It's. It's. There's a middle ground, but it really comes down to you and him talking when he's not trying to. Triggered by his parents and trying to get on the same page. So it starts there when he's not triggered. When mom and dad are not. Not an issue, or you're not responding to a specific incident or request from his parents, you have to say, hey, can we. Can we talk? Like, sometimes I feel when it comes to, like, your mom and dad, I really feel like I don't even know how to support you. And. And. And you never come to me and talk with me. And, like, we might not always be on the same page, but I want. I want us to be able to talk, and ultimately, I want to be able to support you. I sometimes feel shut out.

Kate (80:55)

My God, I wish I could write that down. It's very similar to what you were saying. Like, I don't know where I fit in here. Because if it's not a financial problem, it's an emotional problem, whether it's his dad getting drunk and crashing his car up the road and we have to drive all the way there to make sure everything's okay. And then being cornered and being told, if anybody asks you about. About this, say he hit a deer. And it's like, oh, my God. It's just. There's been so many instances, and I feel like it doesn't really matter what they actually are, but I just feel like there's been more than one occasion where I've been sitting, like, in our house at night. And I've said to myself, I don't know where I fit in here, because he is so focused on other things. And realistically, like, yeah, I would love to say I would be his top priority, but I think we're still at the age where, like, I really want him to focus on work, and I want him to focus on, like, doing something that he enjoys. I appreciate that he loves to spend time with his friends. I think his hobbies that he has are amazing. Everything about him is absolutely perfect. And he's incredibly sweet, he's incredibly kind. He's as giving as he possibly can be. But it's just. I feel really. I. Like, I hate them. I literally hate them. And I told my girlfriend this, and she said, you can't say that out loud when you speak it into existence, then it becomes this thing you keep thinking about. His mother texts me constantly asking where he is, why he isn't answering. And I'm like, he's probably at work.

Nick (82:26)

Like, can't you just pity them? Channel your hate into pity.

Kate (82:30)

You know, I. I do feel so bad for him. Like, I cry about it for them. You know, I felt bad for them at one point. Some of the rotten things I've heard them say to their other two children and to my fiance, I'm like, I just can't pity you anymore. You're so sick, you don't even know it.

Nick (82:49)

If this is your fiance who plans on marrying you, he need. You need to feel like a priority. And, like, you have to find the balance between still dealing with his parents. But he has to be able to set certain boundaries. And you have. You can't feel like at the end of the day, if his parents act up, they will always. They will always be prioritized over you because, you know, for whatever reason, that that's not fair to you. First of all, again, like, this needs to happen when he's not triggered.

Kate (83:17)

He's, he's, he's always seems a little triggered.

Nick (83:19)

This is something I would address before you walk down the aisle. I mean, you know, you have the right to be upset about this. And like, I think there's a solution to this. He has to be willing to work with you. He has to acknowledge that, like, this is not an ideal situation for you. And while it's not, you know, he's probably playing the whole, like, you think.

Host 2 (83:36)

This is hard for you.

Nick (83:36)

Imagine what it's like for me. I'm the one who has to deal with my parents.

Kate (83:40)

He doesn't know how I truly feel. I think he only must imagine.

Nick (83:44)

I mean, like, he.

Kate (83:46)

I think I'm pretty good at hiding it. Like, I'm. I. I think. I don't know, maybe I'm not.

Nick (83:51)

Maybe you're hiding it too much. I don't know. But all I'm saying is you have the right to just have a conversation with your fiance, to try to get on the same page when it comes to something that's constantly causing, causing some emotional instability in your guys's lives. Because when he is down bad emotionally, you feel it, right? So it's like, it's not fair for him to just to expect you to ignore it, you know, to the point where, like, you're like, is everything okay? Because if you're not okay, I'm not sure if I'm okay. But like, you don't let me ask you if you're okay and you don't let me talk to you about this. And like, I don't, like, that's, that's not fair to you. He needs to at least open up to you. He needs to at least include you, invent you. And maybe he, you know, that includes him saying, like, I just need you to listen and can you not judge me right now? And can you not critique? But like, I will share with you. And then maybe when he's not frustrated, just be like, you know, listen, I want you to take care of your parents. But like, I need, we need to set some healthy boundaries with your parents. And there has to be some kind of middle ground. Like, otherwise you're just expecting me to like, have no say and no opinion and no matter what, what happens when you guys have kids. Kids. Because then it's like, then it's like, hey, I don't care. Your, your parents aren't acting that this way around our kids. Your decision Tree is going to drastically change once you have kids. And so I, I think it's important that you guys are able to have these types of conversations now and you should be able to feel like you can have this conversation. A lot will have to do with how you communicate it.

Kate (85:26)

Can I ask your opinion on, on just one other thing? Sure. The last time we did sort of talk about this was, was, it was before we got engaged. So probably in the spring. There had been a huge fight at his parents house. He, his dad made my fiance's sister cry and like run out the door. It was. They constantly are, they're, they're very concerned about surface level things like weight and appearance and how everything looks on the outside, even though on the inside everybody's mental health is just in sham. She had left crying and then on the way home I said, and then of course his, his mother started to cry and said I'm such a horrible mother and blah, blah, blah. So of course you have to say you're not a horrible mother. Even though that was really not a nice thing to do.

Nick (86:12)

Why do you have to say that?

Kate (86:13)

Because otherwise she just keeps crying. She just, and I mean screaming crying. Yeah, well, that's what I would have done. But of course he goes in there and he's like rubbing his mother's back and it's just, it's, it's wild.

Nick (86:25)

You shouldn't say that, Mom.

Kate (86:26)

You know, she had said to me, will you reach out to her? And I said I'll, I said I'm gonna give her call tomorrow. I said, but I'm not going to call her when she's driving and she's.

Nick (86:34)

Upset it's not your place. But I definitely think it's your, your, your fiance's place. If, I mean, I don't know what she said. It sounded like she, I don't know, maybe body shamed her or made her feel, I don't know, said something really mean and rude and insensitive and if that is what's going on.

Kate (86:47)

She's always asking about everybody's dating life. His sister is literally 28 years old. She's still, she's out, she's dating, she's living her life. She's beautiful, she's smart, she's kind. She said, you're, you're never going to get a boyfriend if you're, you keep eating those cookies. There were cookies like on the counter.

Nick (87:03)

That's a crazy thing to say.

Kate (87:05)

It was horrible. And I, and I just was so mortified by the whole Thing And I don't know. In the car on the way home, I said, you need to hold your parents accountable for when they're just not nice. Because that just wasn't nice. And then after all of it, she's crying and she's playing the victim when she just called your sister fat and pretty much told her if she keeps eating, she'll never meet anybody. I said, that's horrible. I said, what did he say? Not responsible for their emotional regulation. They need to be able to do that on their own.

Nick (87:36)

Yeah. What did you say?

Kate (87:37)

He just said, it's been a long night. Can we talk about this tomorrow? And I just said, yeah, we can talk about it tomorrow.

Nick (87:43)

And did you ever bring it up again?

Kate (87:45)

I brought it up in, he had a tea time.

Nick (87:47)

You have to sit him down and say, listen, I know this isn't easy. I know your parents, but you have to let me in. While your parents aren't easy, there are, there are certain things that, that, like I, I, I think you need to stop doing.

Kate (87:59)

Yeah.

Nick (88:00)

And I want to feel like we can talk about this stuff together because if we really are engaged to be married and we're gonna have a family together, I want to be able to talk about this stuff from you. And we have to be able to talk about things that are difficult. And we need to be on the same page when it comes to how we raise our kids. And whether it's our in laws or our siblings or our friends, we have to be on the same team constantly. You know, you need to say, yeah, mom, that is mean to say you should feel bad. And that's a mean thing for a mom to say.

Kate (88:32)

It's just all the same thing over and over.

Nick (88:34)

Yeah, but, and you have the right to want to hold him accountable and like his lack of ability to do that is something that I would be concerned about.

Kate (88:42)

If someone ever said that to my kid, let's say I had a daughter. If someone ever said anything like that or I heard anything like that, that would be the end of them.

Nick (88:51)

I get what you're saying, but that's not the point. The point is your problem right now isn' what you would do if someone in the future said something to your kids. Your problem is, is you and your fiance are not connected on this topic. You are not included. He wants to keep kicking the can down the road and he is, he avoids conflict with you. You may have to at times be careful how you have this conversation with him, but you do have the right to have this conversation conversation, and you should feel included. And ultimately, that conversation is like, I want to be on the same page with you, and I want to support you, but there are situations sometimes where you do not. You. You're not setting boundaries with your parents. I think you need to set when you know you're right. I. I would pick your battles. Right. And that's why I really think the money thing, you need to set aside right now, the example you gave when it came to. To his sister. You know, you're right. That is 100% wrong of her to do, period. Right.

Kate (90:00)

That's.

Nick (90:00)

And. And so you know you're right. He knows you're right. He knows his mom is wrong. Fight those battles. And when it comes to those situations where you're like, there's no nuance, there's no sides. This isn't like you worrying about how.

Host 2 (90:14)

You two are going to pay for.

Nick (90:15)

The kids that don't exist 18 years from now because he's helping support his parents.

Kate (90:19)

Parents. No, I know.

Nick (90:20)

You know, this is. Your mom is mean to her own children, and every once in a while, she's mean to you. And I'm just not like, you can't expect me to just always be okay with that. It's his job to stand up for his mom, and you can say, how can I support you? He can take the lead. You're there to support him. You're there to be his cheerleader. You're there to remind him when he's right and how to stand up for himself. But he can't keep kicking the can down the road. It can't never be a good time to have a conversation. There's a difference between, like, five minutes after it happened, when he's triggered, he's like, now's not the time. But, like, yeah, we need to have this conversation at some point, and you have the right to be able to bring that up. So there's a middle ground, right?

Kate (91:09)

Yeah. And he always stands up for me. So there's never, never, like, I never feel like I'm.

Host 2 (91:14)

That's good.

Kate (91:15)

Stranded on an island. Yeah. He stands up for me and any, like, stray bullets that come my way.

Nick (91:21)

Versus empathizing with him. Hey, listen, I know this sucks because what you don't want to do is when you. When you first called in it, you kind of sounded a little judgy, a little like, these people are crazy and this family sucks, and I'm mortified. Like, it was a you problem. But the more you talk, I think you have the right to Feel the way you do. But you really have to make him feel like you're his cheerleader, like you're there to support him and he doesn't have to pick sides. You're empathizing with his situation. What you don't want to do is have him be like, well, imagine how I feel. Because you're like, you're. You're making his parents behavior, you. Your problem. I get why this is challenging. And you're such a good son and I'm really, I'm really proud of you. How much you care and love for your parents and your desire to be a good son is like part of the reason why I'm so attracted to you. And I know you're going to be a good dad. I would start there and then say, but there are times where your parents, specifically that example with your sister where you make like, I would love for you to try to set healthier boundaries with your parents. And I do want to feel included when you are frustrated at your parents. Like, I am someone you can talk to and you just let me know what you need from me because I do want to be there from you, but I do not want to feel shut out. And every once in a while, I think you need to like, choose your sister over your parents because you know when your parents do things that are just flat out wrong. And I think it's okay for you to set healthy boundaries with your parents.

Kate (92:55)

No, I think that all sounds really good and I didn't mean to come across as judgmental.

Nick (92:59)

I get it. You're frustrated, you know.

Kate (93:01)

Yeah, I'm frustrated and I don't know if protective is the word, but I like, don't like seeing him like this. I really don't.

Nick (93:10)

Listen, I.

Kate (93:11)

Makes me mad.

Nick (93:12)

I. I hear you. You have to know that you are justified in feeling the way you're doing, doing it, but. And then finding the most productive way to make your partner feel supported.

Kate (93:23)

That's really all I want. I want him to feel supported and I want, I want him to be able to like, still have that little bit of energy left in the day to like, talk to me for 10 minutes. It's. We're both like relatively, I think, like meek and mild people, which is why it's so bizarre to me. He's. He is the most calm. Like, it probably is like a byproduct of that. He just prefers peace and quiet, which is great for me because that's what I like too. But yeah, hopefully I can talk to him. I. The past Few weeks have been a little bit more difficult, which is why I emailed and said something. But we are. We're planning to go away for the, Like, a long weekend just to go camping. So I don't know, maybe I'll bring it up then.

Host 2 (94:09)

Although I feel like don't do it on a trip.

Kate (94:12)

I know that's what I was. I just said that to myself. I'm like, I feel like that's not a good idea to, like, bring it up when he's just, like, genuinely trying to enjoy his life.

Nick (94:19)

Just do it on a Wednesday afternoon when he's not bitching about his parents. Okay, you're right. But don't use you being right as a way to get him to feel like he's right. Wrong. And if you focus on that, in.

Kate (94:31)

Some ways, I was wrong. Honestly, like, after talking to you, I feel. I feel actually a lot differently than I did.

Nick (94:38)

Well, you know, listen, when you. You know, his parents are. And so it's really easy once you know that to, like, really find more reasons to be annoyed by them. And so that's why it's tough to try to pick your battles and know, like, which ones are productive and. And. And which ones are, like. Honestly, that's the least of my problems right now.

Kate (94:57)

No, I'm really happy I called because this gave me. One, I have a lot. I have a very different opinion. And two, I also just have kind of a script as to how I want to. How I want to go about it. And we watch Real Housewives every single Wednesday, so I'm going to maybe bring it up after that.

Nick (95:17)

Okay.

Kate (95:17)

It's like, the one thing that we do. I make him watch Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. He hates it, but I think he also just can't turn away. It's, like, so bad.

Nick (95:24)

Well, how can I support you? Is the start of that conversation. And he can't say, you can help me by shutting the up. Like, that's not fair to you.

Kate (95:33)

Yeah. What happens if he does say that?

Nick (95:34)

You say, like, that's not fair. That. That's not including me. I feel left out. There are certain times where you're. I'm. I'm in these situations, and your mom says things that, like, are just not wrong. And, like, well, I know they're not my parents. Like, you know, I wouldn't say that to you. That's not fair. You know, you. You have to remain calm and just point out that, like, that's just. That's not a solution to this problem. Problem. And you can't make me feel shut out. You can tell me when is a good time to have conversations or not. And you can say, like, eventually, like, maybe this is not really a me problem yet, but what happens when we have kids and this type of behavior doesn't change? But I would like us to get on the same page. You have to use this us and we language. It's. You can't attack him. And this is about you, too. And if he makes it about him and dismisses you, you have a right to. To call him out on that.

Kate (96:23)

Yeah. And I think that he does know that, like, no matter what, I'm always going to be there for him. Like, I would not. I'm. I'm always on his side and always on his team.

Nick (96:31)

I imagine he just doesn't want to hear you bitching about his parents to you, which is why half the time he's like, I don't want to hear it right now.

Kate (96:37)

Probably. That's probably it.

Nick (96:39)

So don't come from that place.

Kate (96:42)

I have a plan. Thank you so much.

Nick (96:45)

All right, take care.

Host 2 (96:46)

Keep us posted.

Kate (96:47)

I'd love to know how Natalie. I love her.

Nick (96:49)

I will.

Kate (96:49)

I know that you hear this probably constantly, but she's just one of, like, my favorite people to follow. She brightens up my day. River is so cute.

Nick (96:57)

Oh, thank you.

Kate (96:59)

And, yeah, I love watching you guys. Longtime listener. Thank you.

Nick (97:02)

All right. Thanks for the call. I appreciate it.

Kate (97:03)

Thanks.

Nick (97:03)

All right.

Kate (97:04)

Bye. Bye.