Allison (2:39)

Going good. How are you?

Nick (2:40)

Good. What's your name?

Allison (2:41)

My name is allison. I am 29 years old.

Nick (2:43)

All right. How can I help, Allison?

Allison (2:46)

So I am dating a literal daddy for the first time, and I obviously have none of that in my own history. And so it is. It's been interesting. I'm not gonna lie to you. And I just need some advice, especially dealing with his ex. It's become a bit much, to be honest. And I'm. I'm worried that I have just dug myself in too deep and I' Should I get out now?

Nick (3:09)

Okay. How does your partner. How many kids does he have? And, like, set the stage. Give me the landscape.

Allison (3:17)

Okay, so he is 35 years old. He has two kids. They are 6 and 3. And I'll give you a little bit of a backstory between their relationship. So him and his ex. Well, they're legally still married, actually. We'll touch on that quickly.

Nick (3:35)

Hate that.

Allison (3:36)

Exactly. So we'll. We'll just start there. So. All right. Already a rough go, but when she got pregnant the first time, they were actually just hooking up, and there was really no feelings involved, but she actually, now I think about this, it's quite funny. She's quite a religious girl, and she got pregnant, and she was like, I am keeping the baby, and I'm gonna move back to my country. And so he was like, okay, I guess I only have one choice. I have to marry her. He married her, he raised the baby, and then two years later, he's like. She's like, I'm having another kid. And he really, honestly is a complete pushover for her, and she got her way, and she got a second baby.

Nick (4:16)

Do you still feel that way about your boyfriend?

Allison (4:18)

Oh, completely. He. She couldn't pay her rent the last two months, and he had to pay her rent.

Nick (4:24)

Well, she is his wife.

Allison (4:26)

That's exactly. That's my testimony. That's all I got.

Nick (4:31)

How long you been dating?

Allison (4:33)

We've been dating for three months.

Nick (4:35)

Okay, so it's really early.

Allison (4:37)

It's really early. And that's why I'm like, do I get out now? Because it's getting more intense with her. She's getting a little bit aggressive. She started updating Facebook Posts saying that they're still married, like, as of two days ago. She posted a relationship status.

Nick (4:54)

So tell me what's good about this relationship?

Allison (4:57)

Honestly, when I met him, he was just the most emotionally mature man that I have ever been with. Unfortunately, it's probably because he has already done the steps of becoming a father and has grown drastically due to that. But he was just so. He's just a man. Like, I've been dating these boys, and I started to date a man, and it just felt really good.

Nick (5:18)

Okay, in terms of age of the people you've been dating, is this the first guy who's a little older than you as well?

Allison (5:24)

Honestly, I'm kind of all over the map with that. Like, I've done it. Had a pretty good dating history of just trying to go on dates, learn what I like and don't like. I listen to your Ask Nicks a lot, and I hear a lot of the popular thing is that women have a hard time getting, like, another date. I honestly have, like, too many. That's gonna sound so awful. It's hard to choose. And so when you give these people your time, like, I feel like I get attached to that one person that I give my time to, and then I take all the eggs out of the basket. Do you know what I mean?

Nick (5:58)

Yeah. Yeah. Which. It's kind of the way to do it. I mean, I was talking to someone yesterday where, you know, listen, I think it's typical. The challenge is if. If we were to stereotype, I think. Yeah, I think women probably have an easier time of settling down and committing than men seem to do. I think that's a. That's a very broad, general statement. So, like. Yes, but, yeah, I mean, the challenge is. Is like, to find that it's. It's all about balance, right? Like, everything about life is about balance, and certainly it is about dating early on and, like, that balance of finding that, like, as you relate, grow your relationship. How do you. I mean, listen, like, when I met Nally, I was single af, you know, like, I had been single for years. I was so good at being single. I was really comfortable with being single. I mean, I was also, like, kind of miserable and whatever. But, like, I was. You know, all jokes aside, I was like. That's the feeling that was like my. You know, I was really content, you know, and then now me and Natalie are one. You know, we're just. We are a family, you know, and it's amazing, you know, but that was a gradual process that took literal years, you know, We've been together for six years now, which is crazy to think that took time. You know, when we first got together, that was. It was very different. I think it's important to note that, like, what you. What you like about him, it's incomplete. You know, like the things you like about him, I'm not saying they're not true, but there's a lot more for you to learn. And he might look a certain way to you again compared to. To what you've dated before.

Allison (7:38)

Yes.

Nick (7:38)

And it might be masked a little bit because of his situation where he is forced to make what feels like to you very adult decisions, and he is immersed in very adult situations. And whether it's messy or not for you, you might just be like, at least I'm now arguing with my boyfriend about things that feel serious rather than, you play too much video games. And, like, having that debate with someone where you're like, I can't even get my fucking guy to, like, take me on a walk. Like, well, you know, he's playing video games and, you know, at least, you know, it might feel like, well, he's fighting with his wife, you know, and it might feel more mature. I don't. You know, so you want to be careful there about, like, you know how I always talk about feelings are valid. They also change. They're temporary. You know, the more we learn about people.

Allison (8:29)

Yeah.

Nick (8:30)

I mean, I will say I think it's important that you trust how you feel this early on in a relationship that you're already wondering if you should get out. I wouldn't ignore that feeling.

Allison (8:42)

Honestly. I've already brought it up. In therapy. I was sitting at his house one day and my therapist called and I had a session and I was like, I am not even two months.

Nick (8:51)

Your therapist just randomly called and was like, what's up, girl?

Allison (8:56)

I wish, but we had a session book and I was just going off about him for the full hour, and I haven't. He was there off about. No, no, no. Gosh, no. I made sure he left his own house first. And I was just like, this is too early. You know, I should not be having this much animosity towards this man.

Nick (9:15)

Well, the reality is, is he's got too much to figure out right now. It's. It's nearly impossible. And again, I'm generalizing. For him to prioritize you in this relationship while he's dealing with his wife.

Allison (9:29)

Yeah.

Nick (9:30)

Not his ex wife, his. His wife.

Jessica (9:33)

Yeah.

Nick (9:34)

And the fact that she is posting the way she is means that like, that's, that's very messy. And he obviously feels a certain type of loyalty to her. And it's, it's, it's not a good thing that you think he's a pushover for her.

Allison (9:47)

Yeah, it's not and she knows it.

Nick (9:50)

There's a lack of respect that you have for your new boyfriend, and it's really important that you respect your boyfriend.

Allison (9:55)

I want to respect him for the things he's doing.

Nick (9:57)

I don't mean like in a, like a, like an 1800 sort of way or like, know you, like, there's. I'm Catholic, I was raised Catholic. And there's. If you go to church every Sunday, if you're Catholic, you have basically, I think, like heard the most of the Bible over a course of four years or something like that. But every, there's this like reading. I don't know what it is. And it's always like, you should want to respect your partner. You should want to admire them, you know, each other, you know, be like, oh, that's my man. You know, like, you know, so it's great that you think, oh, he's finally a man. But you, the fact that you think he's a pushover, you know, you don't want to be already thinking that. No.

Allison (10:34)

And the hard thing is I, I do respect him for like the decisions and choices he's made, owning up to it. You know, those are his kids. That is still his legal obligation with her. So he's doing what he has to do. But I definitely do think he's a pushover for her. And that's not a good.

Nick (10:49)

What conversations have you had with him about this, actually?

Allison (10:53)

So when I sent this email in, we're probably at the four month mark now, but it was about two and a half months when I sent this email in and have actually gone through some like, triumphs because I got to the point where I didn't. You've gone through some priority triumphs.

Nick (11:08)

Triumphs. Good. In a good way. Okay.

Allison (11:09)

Yeah, in a good way. But also trials like we went through, we went through trial and air, let's just say. So like we had a lot of conversations and that made like, that made me feel really good because he was communicating with me and trying to make me feel like a priority. But I just. You can't really feel like a priority when he has two kids under the age of six and he still has this obligation. So I kind of put myself down to the, the bottom of the list. And then I realized I was settling for Less than I deserved. And so we started having some more intense conversations, and then he just got super overwhelmed, and he hasn't been communicating with me about what's going on on her end. And she is in his ear all day, every day, and making things very difficult. She's telling the kids to say things to him and stuff about mommy and daddy getting back together. The kids call him and say, like, I want to see you right now. When she knows we're together, like, she just tries to pull these strings, and it. And it's made him completely back away. And then, therefore, I've honestly gotten a little emotionally numb to it because I'm just like, what am I doing here?

Nick (12:16)

So, yeah, I guess what I would say, you just got to sit him down and be like, listen, assuming this is true, I like you, and here's why I like you, and this is what I felt when I first met you in the best possible way. And just, you know, kind of almost in a way, tell them what you said to me. It's just, like, I was really. I am really attracted to the fact that, like, in a lot of ways, I think you have your shit together, and I'm really attracted to your maturity, and I'm attracted to the fact that, like, you care about your family, that, you know, I'm very attracted to that. You have a lot going on right now, and we just started dating, and it's a little bit too much too soon, I think, for both of us. And despite me liking you, I think you need to figure your shit out. And I'm not saying I'm necessarily pulling back, but I do need to slow down, and I think you really need to dictate terms, I guess you need to be able to find your balance that you're comfortable with if you want to stay in this relationship. And you need to be able to try to separate how he prioritizes his children versus how he prioritizes his wife. Step one, is this, like, I. I. Are you gonna, like, why are you still married? And, like, are. Is this actually gonna change? I'm very uncomfortable with the fact that, like, she doesn't want to end this relationship, and you have a hard time disappointing her. And I get why, you know, you're a good guy, you know, but, like, until you're able to, like, disappoint her and prioritize me, I don't think I. It's not. It's not a good situation for me to be in, and I don't want to make you choose. I'm totally fine with you prioritizing your kids. If I want to date you, I have to accept that. I'm okay with that. But I can't have your kids be used as an excuse for her to, like, always steal your time. And right now I don't know if you know how to do that. And until you do, I just don't know if we can make this work because clearly he has some shit to figure out. Truly, it is too early for him to be dating. It was a little irresponsible and a little reckless for him to be like, I don't know how you met. Was it on the apps?

Allison (14:25)

It was like.

Nick (14:26)

It was. He should have been on the apps. This motherfucker should not have been in the apps. And that's a bit of a red flag. I would be. Do you know why he was on the apps?

Allison (14:35)

I think that he was probably looking for something casual and didn't expect to meet someone and they were separated. They were separated, yeah.

Nick (14:45)

It was still reckless of them.

Allison (14:47)

Honestly. It was. It was. It was a really close time frame. I think they were only living apart for, like, six months. So, yeah, in my opinion, I think it was still too fast. Just looking. How much is still on his plate?

Nick (15:00)

How old is he? Clearly he's 36.

Allison (15:01)

He's 35.

Nick (15:02)

35. He's not that old. This is not like some guy who's like, if I don't start dating now, I'll lose it. Like, he's, you know. Yeah, he had no reason not to be a little bit more patient and discerning about. Like, I, you know, this is too messy for me. I gotta figure my shit out. Like, I'm. Maybe he's at this position where he's like, I know. I. I know she's not my person. I know. Like, I don't want to be with her forever. I hate that I'm doing this to my family, but this is what I need to be happy. But I do care about my kids, and this is messy, and I just need to figure out how I make this work, you know? And he hasn't figured out how to make this work and stand up for himself and set boundaries with his. Hopefully in your case, to be ex wife. He just was like, I need. I need to get sep. I need to get out. And then he got on the apps, and that's crazy.

Allison (15:48)

It is, it is. It was just unnecessary. He's not even mentally capable of adding more to his plate. He also has his own company, so it's just he's just running himself like a dog and it's just. He has nothing left.

Nick (16:02)

But that's. He. He made this bed.

Allison (16:04)

Yep, he did.

Nick (16:05)

And he, and you know, it's not an impossible situation. He can figure this out. He just, it's obviously a difficult time for him. It's a, it's probably, you know, uncharted territory for him. And I can understand it's difficult, but he needs to, he needs to know how to do that. And until he figures out how to manage his ex in co parent in a way that he. Yeah, he needs to figure that out.

Allison (16:28)

Yeah, he really needs to manage and.

Nick (16:30)

I think it's, it's going to be very difficult for him to figure out how to do that while you're in the picture.

Allison (16:37)

I agree.

Nick (16:38)

It would have been a lot easier for him to do this as a single person. You know, the problem is like, yeah, and it's like if I'm his buddy, you know, and let's say like he was like, yeah, I'm not happy. And he's like, we're separated, we're not married. And, and if he would have asked my opinion, you know, like, I would have been like, dude, if you go on the apps. And he's like, I just want to keep it casual. I just want to meet someone. I'm like, you're going to fall in love with the first girl that you hit it off with. Because again, it's, it's, it's, it's like a tale as all this time, you know, like, you're probably different than her. You make him feel a way that she didn't. It's exciting, you know? You know, there's a risk that a lot of the things he feels about you, I'm not saying aren't genuine, but they might be a little manufactured, you know, because you make him feel things that you're a release in a way, you know, and not that he's intending to do that, but in a way it's kind of. His life is just so chaotic right now. He just probably doesn't really know what he needs or wants. And he is, he is not in control of his life. He is being reactive, you know, and he went about things this way, which demonstrates a little bit of immaturity. I mean, listen, life's not perfect in these very adult and messy situations. Like it. No one plans for them. You, you. It's like baptism by fire, you know, So I give him a lot of empathy that way, but the mature thing to do would have Been to like, get his shit together, prioritize his family, prioritize his kids, and then figure out how to navigate this messy situation and find out how he can like, stand up and set healthy boundaries with his ex wife and know that she's going to be disappointed, but figure it out. And that might take some time for him to do that. Him inserting this new girl, you into this equation before his. His wife was ready for it. Not that she was ever gonna. Not that he needs her permission, but it was always gonna be like this. You know, listen, it's. It's not a great situation. And I don't. I just don't know. He's never done this before, so you don't know if he can do it, you know?

Allison (18:42)

No. And then it's all. It just. And I even think of bigger picture. Like, I'm like, we've talked about him having more kids and he says yes. But he's also financially tied down to his ex wife right now. They're still legally married and he still has two the age of six. And I am 29 years old. And within the next few years, like, I want to have a family. I want to start having my own babies.

Nick (19:04)

Yeah, that part I think you can figure out. I mean, I don't know his financial situation and like, you know, I don't nowadays. And I know the economic times are tricky. Yeah, they've been tricky before. I don't know. You know, that's the thing.

Allison (19:16)

I feel like it's just excuses a lot of the time. Like, you were right in saying the fact that, like, I'm opposite of her. And I was like, his peace. And I was like, vacation. And then he would get a phone call and then immediately shut down. And it's like, oh, now he has to deal with real life.

Nick (19:31)

Yeah.

Allison (19:32)

And I was kind of like, but I'm supposed to be part of your real life too. Like, I want to hear what's going on. But I was vacation. So he was like, just cut me in a little.

Nick (19:41)

Yeah, that's a really bad sign.

Allison (19:44)

Yeah.

Nick (19:44)

That you feel it and it. And it makes so much sense. You know, you're right. And the way you described it is probably really accurate that you are this vacation for him, this release. Think about it. Like he knocked up this woman, was kind of like lukewarm about her, wanted to do the right thing, settled down, realized it wasn't the right thing, and now stuck in the situation. So it must feel incredibly overwhelming for him. And I imagine that he feels very stuck but it's not a situation people haven't been in before. But it does take someone who has a strong conviction, and he just has to figure it out. And I don't think he can figure it out with you. He has to figure out on his own.

Allison (20:25)

Yeah, unfortunately, I agree with that. I think there needs to be some space taken. And he keeps getting really emotional anytime we try to do that, because I think he, again, is realizing I'm his piece. And so when I'm not in his life anymore, it's just the heaviness, and then he's alone. So.

Nick (20:44)

Yeah, well, he's got to figure it out. He's only 35.

Allison (20:47)

Got to figure it out. He's got it. He's the one that, like, he's. It takes two to tango. They had a second kid. I think that's as much as the man's decision as it is the woman's. And, yeah, he did. He did agree to that. So I'm like, you brought another baby onto this earth. You could have really said no. You let it happen. And so my sympathy is dwindling down, truly.

Nick (21:10)

I mean, in some respects, you do have to say, hey, buddy, this is the bed you made, and you can get through it. But, like, you got to own that and fucking just deal with it, man. Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Get your life together. Figure it out. It's not the end of the world. Like, people. Too many people, sadly, have to deal with this. It is what it is. You can get through it, but, like, you have to. He can say no to her. He left her.

Allison (21:34)

And he's. He's. He's learning how to say no. But it's really new. Like, as much as fresh as the point of him moving out. That's how new it is. Because she's gotten everything she's wanted out of him, and she continues to. And it's because of his kids. Like, what? Is he gonna say, no, I'm not paying your rent? Of. Of course he's going to pay whatever he has to for his children.

Nick (21:55)

Yeah, well, he's just. I mean, he's got to. He's got to get divorced. If he wants to get divorced, he's got to get divorced. I mean, honestly, that's step one. It's deal with your shit, you know?

Allison (22:03)

Yeah. In Canada, I think you have to be legally separated for a year before filing. So really he has to wait, I think, six more months or just under six months to get legally separated.

Nick (22:15)

Or it's like, well, that's a That's a good period of time for him to figure out his shit. But he probably shouldn't be dating.

Allison (22:22)

Probably should not be dating. And I think I'm just gonna lay that down. Like, until you're legally divorced, until it's on paper, he still has a wife. Like, she still has a tattoo on her ring finger. She still thinks that they're have a chance of getting back together. Like, I just need to remove myself, I think.

Nick (22:38)

Yeah. And you could say, listen, I really like you, and I'm not saying, but, like, I'm trying to make really smart and healthy decisions. I think you need to make those too. If not to sound corny, but if we should be together, we'll find our way back to each other. And I'm not saying we can't talk, but you really need to. Like, I can't just be this girl that feels like a vacation, you know? I can't be. I don't want to just represent, like, not reality to you. This.

Allison (23:07)

I want real life.

Nick (23:08)

Yeah.

Allison (23:08)

I really. I want that. Like, I want a home, I want kids. I want that one person. So.

Nick (23:14)

And I. It's fine that you're a father and I want you to prioritize your kids, but I can't be that far down the priority list.

Jessica (23:21)

Yeah.

Allison (23:21)

And that's exactly what it is. I think just being involved with a man that was emotionally mature accessed something in me, and I was actually trying to be mature in a relationship for the first time, I guess. And that's why it feels hard to give up, because I was trying so hard. Like, I. I put my big adult foot forward and I was trying to be proper in this relationship, but it feels like I can't fight this one.

Nick (23:45)

Yeah, that sucks. I mean, but listen, you know, I wish I could say, like, there's a lot of mature men out there. I don't know if there are.

Allison (23:51)

Where do I find them? Do I have to build my own?

Nick (23:54)

It can't. I don't know. It can't be that bad out there.

Allison (23:56)

I. I know it's not that bad, but there's always something. And it's just so strange because there's always something, but there's something.

Jessica (24:03)

Isn't.

Allison (24:03)

Doesn't have to be, like, that bad, but it's something that. It's just like, okay, they're not. They're not ready for emotional stability or something like that. And it's just. It's hard finding your person and I'm not going to settle.

Nick (24:16)

It is. Yeah. Sorry. I wish I Wish I had, Like, I was more helpful, but, yeah, it sounds a little too messy, and there are a lot of red flags here. And it sounds like you know it, and it sounds like you feel it. And I think the red flags outweigh the green flags. And the red flags, you know, they're red flags and the green flags, you're like. It feels like a green flag, but I'm not entirely sure it is.

Allison (24:42)

Yes, I think that. I think, again, just dating a man in that position, you were right. I was like, he's a husband. He's a dad. I just. I just liked the look of that. Or maybe that made me see that he was more mature than he is. And clearly he's not as emotionally mature as I expected.

Nick (24:59)

You know, it's also a difficult time. What will really help you learn that is if you sit him down and say, listen, I know this is a difficult conversation, but I really think we need to. I think we need to stop doing what we're doing. You need to be alone right now. That's my opinion. I can't tell you what to do. You know, and selfishly, I kind of want you to be alone because I do like you and, like, I do see potential with you. But right now, you have too much on your plate, and you have to get your life together, and you need to, like, honestly, like, just take care of your family in a way that, like, I. I don't fit it right now. I just don't, you know, And I don't want to be something. You just fit in on the side because you have other things going on. So, like, I personally think. And again, this is just a very biased opinion from someone who likes you, but, like, I think you should be alone right now. So, like, I can't stop you if I end this. And I'm not telling you to sit there and wait for me, but it's just. You just have to figure it out. And once you get divorced, if you're still thinking about me and. And you feel like you really are able to, like, like, set healthy boundaries with her, let me know, you know? But right now, it's definitely. It's too much and it's too much for me, and I think it's too much for you, you know, and it's just more. It's just more stress on your plate. So figure it out and let me know.

Allison (26:19)

Yeah, I completely agree. You're right. I. He doesn't need more stress on his plate, and I'm just digging myself and a hole, getting Nowhere. So I think just sitting him down and having that conversation will. At least we'll see where his head's at.

Nick (26:32)

His response should be a lot of disappointment. He can be sad, but I hope he comes around sooner than later and says, you know, you're probably right and this sucks and I'm really sad, but I need to do this. And you're right, and this makes me like you more. But, yeah, I'll let you, you know, and then, I don't know, maybe you keep in touch or whatever. But you have to be able to keep looking. You have to, like, have your life, and you can't be sitting around waiting for him.

Allison (27:01)

Yeah, I know he'll handle the conversation. Well, he is a very calm, cool, collected guy. I just have to bring myself around to doing it. So thank you. I appreciate it.

Nick (27:11)

Well, keep me posted on what you decided to do.

Allison (27:15)

I will.

Nick (27:15)

And we'll follow your love story along the way.

Allison (27:20)

Yeah. Who knows? Maybe next time I'll call and I'll say, I found my soulmate.

Nick (27:24)

I hope so. Yeah, we'll see.

Allison (27:25)

Me too. Thanks. Fingers crossed. And if you have any, you know, eligible bachelors.

Nick (27:29)

Sounds good.

Allison (27:31)

Thank you.

Nick (27:32)

All right, take care.

Allison (27:33)

Have a great day.

Nick (27:34)

You too. Bye. Bye.

Allison (27:35)

Bye.

Co-host (27:37)

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Nick (30:50)

Home. How's it.

Autumn (30:52)

Going? It's going good. How are.

Nick (30:54)

You? I'm good. What's your.

Autumn (30:55)

Name? My name is Autumn and I'm.

Nick (30:58)

26. How can I help.

Autumn (30:59)

Autumn? I have a three month curse and I know that sounds insane, but for years I've had this pattern where guys pursue me and treat me like I'm their future wife. And then randomly out of nowhere they start distancing themselves and blindside me. And the reasons are things that I can't control. And so after a while I start to realize the common denominator here is me. So my question is, are curses real or am I just really the.

Nick (31:27)

Problem? I mean, I don't believe in curses. I don't think could just be a string of bad luck and then probably you're either doing things or not doing things. I probably right. That like maybe is causing.

Autumn (31:45)

You. That's what I'm here to find out.

Nick (31:46)

Yeah. Anyways, tell me more about your situation where you feel like you've maybe broke a mirror or walked a black cat walk past you or something where.

Autumn (31:54)

All of a sudden, yeah, no, really, I do own a black cat, so maybe I.

Nick (31:57)

Did. There you.

Autumn (31:58)

Go. I am the problem. Who thought. No, I guess I can just give an example just to kind of get you an idea of this has been happening. Same, different guy, same situation with different situ, different reasons. But it's usually, like I said, things that I can't control. Recently, like a couple of months ago, I was seeing this guy and I had known him for years. We used to work together and we both really liked each other back then, but didn't say anything. But we randomly saw each other years later at a bar and I was doing a gig and he pursues me. He's like, hey, look like we're both older. I still think you're a great person. I would love to take you out on a date. And I was like, you know what? Sure, why not? No guys hitting up my line anyway, so let's go for it. I'll take a dinner and see where it goes. And when I tell you this man was literally like talk. Asking me like how many kids I wanted and things like that, which kind of scared me at first I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. But he just seemed so sincere and genuine where I was like, okay, he's just a very intentional guy. And he's the type of guy that dates with the potential for more like this isn't. He's not A casual dater. And I kind of like.

Nick (33:03)

That. That was your.

Autumn (33:04)

Impression? That was my impression, yes, absolutely. Like a month after into talking, like, everything's going great, we're getting along, we're spending time together. He has a crazy job, but he's intentionally making the time that he would probably be sleeping to spend time with me. And so I really appreciated that and it showed that he really, you know, wanted to get to know.

Nick (33:20)

Me. When you said you had a gig, I'm just out of curiosity, what.

Autumn (33:22)

Was. Oh, yeah, no, I'm in some.

Allison (33:24)

Bands. Oh.

Autumn (33:24)

Okay. So I.

Allison (33:25)

Sing.

Autumn (33:25)

Yeah. And so it's just something fun I do. It's not my real job, just a fun hobby I.

Nick (33:30)

Have.

Autumn (33:30)

Awesome. But yeah, thank you. It's really fun. So after a month into dating, you know, he's asking me if I can take off work to go on a trip with him. That's in two months. And he asked me to have dinner with his.

Nick (33:41)

Family. And he's planning a trip with you. That's two months.

Autumn (33:44)

Out. Like, his friends are going on a trip and he asked me if I could take off work to go with.

Nick (33:48)

Him. But in two months. Not like, hey, random question. This weekend we're going on a trip and any chance you're available, Ironically.

Autumn (33:55)

They'Re on the trip right now, so just keep that in mind. Like, they're literally on the trip right now because I couldn't.

Nick (34:01)

Go. But he's. But he was.

Autumn (34:02)

Planning. He was planning. And I even had dinner with his, like, parents. But I already know.

Nick (34:08)

Them. No, I know.

Autumn (34:09)

Parents. I literally was a little concerned about that because I was like, okay, but I did already know them from. I worked with his, one of his parents and then I knew him from when we worked.

Nick (34:17)

Together. But how did, how did dinner.

Autumn (34:19)

Happen? Well, also, fun fact, he does live at his parents house because he's saving up to buy a.

Nick (34:23)

House. How old is.

Autumn (34:24)

He? So we always hung out at my. He's. He is younger than me too. He's 24, I believe. But he.

Nick (34:30)

Was. When you said that, he said we're both older and you were like, I'm.

Autumn (34:36)

26. I know, I know. I'm young. I know. This is so.

Nick (34:39)

Funny. No, no, you're not. I mean, you're. I mean, you're, you're younger than me, but you're a great age, man. If you're, if you're in your mid-20s nowadays, that's like the golden I know, especially of being single. Like, you know, it's just you're you're young, but you're. You're not too young. I hope people who are in their mid-20s feel nothing other than just like, a great age.

Autumn (34:58)

Anyways. Yes. And I think, like, I also. A big aspect of this that might help you kind of understand where I'm coming from is I also live in the South, So with that comes expectations as a woman, specifically, like, if.

Nick (35:11)

You'Re. You're.

Autumn (35:12)

Old. 30. Yeah. Like, I'm pretty much barren in this society. And I don't. And I hate that idea. And I don't want to succumb to the cultural pressure, but that does mean I am literally the only single.

Nick (35:24)

Friend. You feel.

Autumn (35:24)

It. So. And so I'm aware of it. And sometimes I feel like I'm on an island because I'm the only one left. And on top of it, I was born on Valentine's Day. On the day of love, if you will. So God has a sense of humor. God has a real sense of.

Nick (35:37)

Humor. What is it like having a birthday on Valentine's.

Autumn (35:39)

Day? Horrible. Because I'm always single and all my friends are.

Nick (35:43)

Married. Well, plus. And then it's just like everyone else has.

Autumn (35:46)

Plans.

Nick (35:47)

Yes. Or they're.

Autumn (35:48)

Sad. Second my whole.

Nick (35:50)

Life. So, yeah. Like, the friends who are available are all like, you know, they're just like, well, you know, they're all sad on your birthday because they're.

Autumn (35:57)

Single. I guess, buy me.

Nick (35:59)

Flowers. I guess I'll hang out with.

Autumn (36:00)

Autumn. Literally, it's like, all right. But anyways, sorry, back to the guy. So all these things, right. Which are showing that he's very intentional and he sees a future. Future, mind you. Me, on the other hand, never once asked him to meet my family because I just feel like that's, you know, like, even though we've known each other for a while and I knew his family, he didn't know mine. So I'm not just going to throw you into that. Never asked him about future anything. I've been very chill. I've let him take the lead, which is a very common thing of mine. I will. I usually don't set the pace. I just follow the pace that they set. And sometimes maybe that is a problem, but we'll get into that later. So all this is going.

Nick (36:39)

Great.

Autumn (36:39)

Great. Out of nowhere, around, like two months. So not three months exactly, but two months are in and he starts distancing himself in the sense of. Instead of talking to me on the phone a lot, he's texting me just every few hours, which no big deal. We're busy. I have a job. He has a job. So I didn't think much of it. And then something he used to do was when he'd work nights, he'd call me on the phone and we talk. He stopped doing that. And I was like, okay. On top of that, he. When we would hang out, he stopped just. It felt very friends only, like, it wasn't. He wasn't trying to like be.

Nick (37:11)

Intimate. But for a period of time, him texting you every few hours felt.

Autumn (37:17)

Less. Yes. Let me say, like, we went from texting pretty consistently. Yes, constantly. Or like when we.

Nick (37:24)

Could. It felt.

Autumn (37:25)

Different. Very much like, yeah, like texting. He only texted me back like three times that day in a span of all day.

Nick (37:30)

Compared. But I was drastically different than drastically.

Autumn (37:33)

Different. And I still didn't say anything though, because. Because I. I am a fully self aware that I have really bad anxiety and I'm an overthinker. So because of that, I will convince myself not to say not to. Like, I'll convince myself I'm overthinking something. So I waited like a week of this happening and I was like, okay, I guess it's time. And I still even asked my friends before I texted him, like, hey, do y' all think this is weird? Like, am I overthinking this? And they said, no, there's a com. There's like a definitely a shift. You need to see what's going on. So I just texted him. I was very chill about it because I was about to leave for a work thing too. So I wanted to get this figured out before. So I just kind of sent him a nice little text. It's like, hey, like, I'm not trying to like make you feel uncomfortable, but I just kind of noticed there's a shift. Do you mind? Like, are we on the same page? What's going on? Or is something going on with you? Like, are you okay? And it wasn't until I said that that he goes, hey, thank you for being honest. I really thought I wanted a relationship, but it's starting to look like I just don't have the time. Him and what I'm about to say made me very frustrated because he said, I just can't give you the relationship that you want. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, here. You're the one that said all this. You're the one that did all these crazy things. How am I asking for something? And so I was like, okay, understandable. You're busy, I'm busy. That's fine. We can still just be friends. But I just want to be clear because he was saying things like, I just don't want to hurt you in the future. And. And I was like, okay, that's fine. I was like, so.

Jessica (38:59)

We'Re. Are.

Autumn (39:00)

We. Like, I just want to be very clear with your intentions. Are we done? Like, are we just going to be friends only? And he goes, I still want to hang out with you. And I was like, that doesn't answer my question. If we hang out, is it friends or is it potentially more in the future, no matter how long that is? I was like, I don't want to have any expectations or false hope. Like, I'm just being very honest and vulnerable here. And he was like, let's just hang out as friends and see if there's more. And I was like, okay. And then we. After. We texted a little more for a week after that, and he just never talked to me.

Nick (39:28)

Again. So in that moment, right, I want you to think back to that.

Autumn (39:31)

Moment.

Jessica (39:32)

Yes.

Nick (39:32)

Okay. When he's just, like, saying all this. What made you say.

Autumn (39:37)

Okay? I think I was just so over it. Oh, you mean like the part of him saying, like, I still want to hang out.

Nick (39:42)

Or. And you were like, yeah, okay, let's try this. Like, what made you do.

Autumn (39:46)

That? I mean, I definitely liked him. And so I think. And looking back now, I should have been just like, no. And I do care about him because I've known him for a long time, and he's a good guy. I was just like, maybe. I was like, you know what? Maybe it is just he's a super busy. He's super busy right now, but maybe if we keep hanging out and he's in a better place, we could see if there's more. I think that's a little naive of.

Nick (40:07)

Me. And at this point, looking back, other than, like, you know, a couple boxes on a list that he checks, so to speak, like, what were you really excited about when it came to a future with this.

Autumn (40:20)

Guy? We have the same type of humor, and so we got along really well. I was very comfortable with him just because we just. He's just. We could talk for hours. I think that's something I really appreciated. Like, we didn't have to be. We would watch tv, but for the most part, like, we didn't have to be watching a TV or be distracted by something. Just enjoy each other's company. Like, we were able to just sit there and talk and talk about whatever we wanted. We would have really good conversations. I loved his family. We kind of shared the same ideas and beliefs and stuff, which I don't mind having different beliefs with people, but it's just.

Nick (40:51)

Nice. Yeah. You had common.

Autumn (40:52)

Ground. We had common ground on a lot of things, and we agreed on a lot of things. And he's just genuinely like, he has a good heart. Even to this day, he has a good heart. He's just not boyfriend material, which is fine. And so there was just. I saw a potential of a really good, strong foundation for something, and I think that's why I was still holding on when I shouldn't.

Allison (41:12)

Have.

Autumn (41:12)

Okay. But I still did agree to hang out, but we never did. And he stopped talking to me all together, so. Okay, there we are. Joke's on.

Nick (41:20)

Me. So you haven't, like, spoken to him since that.

Autumn (41:24)

Point? No, no, we talked on and off. Oh, this was in, like, probably our last conversation was in the beginning of.

Nick (41:31)

October.

Autumn (41:32)

Okay. And it was like, just still kind of texting, but not a lot. And then he just never responded to one of my texts. And I just didn't put, like, I'm not gonna keep trying. Obviously I have some self.

Nick (41:41)

Respect. I'm sure you got more than some. Okay. So other than this situation, whether, like, why other than just, like, being okay, I'm bummed. Why do you think you're.

Autumn (41:51)

Cursed? Like, oh, because this just keeps happening. Before him, I was dating another guy. Completely different guy. Like, it's not like I even go for the same type. I try my best to, like, kind of venture out before him. Earlier the end of year, I was actually dating this guy. Like, we were official and had labels and it was a musician for a band. We would talk about our future. We dated for probably four months. So sorry. Two and four, not three, but same vibe. And I went on tour with him for a weekend and he met my dad and we, you know, spending a lot of time with him on weekends. He lived an hour away, so we would have to, like, plan times together. And it was the same thing. We're both busy. He's on a world Tour. I'm working a 9 to 5, so we have to kind of work with each other. And he was very.

Nick (42:39)

Intentional. How successful was this musician who had a world.

Autumn (42:43)

Tour? Oh, not, I mean, like, don't be wrong. It wasn't like he the band. The singer is good. I wouldn't say he's like crazy popular. It's more like the. Oh, this the guy I was seeing. He's.

Nick (42:54)

27.

Autumn (42:55)

Okay. Turning 28 situation. Two years older than me. Russell we were doing great. In my head, like, everything was fine. I was really liking this guy. It's probably, like, the most serious relationship I've had in two.

Jessica (43:08)

Years.

Autumn (43:09)

Okay. And then on top of that, everything's going great. We're texting that morning, Two hours, like, go by, and he just randomly texts me, hey, I'm moving to Nashville. And I'm like, I'm sorry, what? And I was like, what are you talking about? And he said, it's something I've been thinking about for a while now. It was like, since when? That's news to me. He said, I just really need to advance my music career. I hope you understand, but obviously we're not going to be able to work out. I was like, okay, thanks. So I agreed with him in the sense of, I don't want that long of a distance of a relationship, but still, at the same time, just completely blindsided me. Never once knew he wanted to go to Nashville. And so I just keep getting in these situations where in my head, like, I keep saying, in my head, because that's how crazy I feel. In my head, everything's great. I have no indication that they're not interested. They're purposely doing these things to show interest. And then out of nowhere, in the blink of an eye, it's completely like, actually, I don't. Can't pursue this. And it's not your fault. It's something that you can't control. And it just. Those same things keep happening, whether it's, I'm moving, I got a new job. You know, I thought I had time for a relationship, but I don't. And you're a really great person, and I hate that this is the case, or just. Just those same typical things. And they're never something I do, and if it is, they're just not honest with me. So how can I fix something that's not broken if I don't know that's broken in a sense, you.

Nick (44:36)

Know? Yeah. I mean, it's.

Autumn (44:38)

Tough. So I don't.

Nick (44:40)

Know. More than anything, it could just be bad luck, a little bit of that. Now, if we were to try to, like, get granular and try to, like, figure out what you can control and what you can't control. I mean, in these situations, you look back when you think about common denominator outside of just like, yeah, okay, it's me, but what specifically. When you look back on these two relationships, what do you think are themes with them? With.

Autumn (45:07)

Them? With them specifically, not so much.

Nick (45:11)

Them, but, like, the situations, how you Feel with these guys, the pace in which these.

Autumn (45:16)

Go. I do think the biggest thing is people, probably the pace. Like, I've noticed, and it's all. It's like, I don't put myself out there that much, and it takes a lot for me to like somebody. So I don't. I don't pursue guys. It's just not in my nature. I'm just not like that. So the guys that this keeps happening to are the guys that pursue me and pursue me hard, and they start very quickly. And I think that could be a problem in the sense of. I don't want to say love bombing, but it's just very much so. So intentional, so overwhelming and affectionate so quick that maybe they scare.

Nick (45:53)

Themselves. How quickly, you know, you're like, it takes me a lot to like a guy. These guys pursue me aggressively, intentionally. How quickly? Once you're like, you know, I kind of think I like this guy. Do you let your guard down and just kind of be like, all right, well, okay, I like you. You clearly like.

Autumn (46:12)

Me.

Nick (46:13)

Literally. Like, let's. Let's. Let's do this, you know? Like, how. Yeah, at that point, are you just fully, like, in it.

Autumn (46:20)

Then? Yes, I would say it's very situational. Just depends on, like, how much we can see each. Like, if it's someone that I'm seeing a couple times a week, you know, that's obviously going to progress farther, longer than it is the other one. But it usually takes me a good. Like, if I do end up liking the person, I'm usually in it by, like, a good couple, three weeks in. I'm like, okay. Like, I. I really like this guy.

Jessica (46:42)

Now.

Autumn (46:42)

Like. Like, I. He's very sweet to me. We have a lot in common, things like that. And at that point, I kind of just catch on to the pace that they're at, and I'm like, okay, he really likes me. I'm starting to like him. I'm just gonna follow him and see where this goes. But maybe that is the problem. Maybe I also join them on that, and they don't like that. Maybe. Maybe they don't realize they're moving fast with me. And so when I follow their pace, they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You.

Nick (47:09)

Know? Yeah. I think more than anything, I think you need to get this narrative out of your head that you are cursed or you're unlucky or that you're doing something wrong. You know? Like, I'm sure we can nitpick and you can try to make adjustments, and we can Try things out. Nothing I'm gonna like, say is gonna be like, all right, go do this, and it's gonna solve all your problems. And oh, my God. You know, like, I think, yeah, dating's hard and it's discouraging and it's frustrating. And then when these situations happen, it's hard not to. To get really discouraged, you know, and feel that fatigue and give up. I think you just can't, like, make it about you in that way because, like, you know, you're not doing anything wrong. You know, obviously there's these situations with these guys who are, you know, being flaky and there's like, you know, the boys will be boys, so to speak, in a not so great way. But yeah, I think more than anything, you just have to try not to get too discouraged, which is, I know.

Autumn (48:08)

Frustrating. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's what, when I talk to my friends about it, that's why I, I obviously sent a submission in because I just have my friends. Like the only people I talk to are my friends about it. And so they're obviously biased. And so I was like, I just kind of need like a non biased person who doesn't, you know, who's not trying to, who can be honest with me about these things. So it's nice to hear. And my friends pretty much say the same thing. Yeah, it's hard not to get frustrated because at the end of the day, I think I get more mad about the pattern than I do about the breakup or the end of a.

Nick (48:37)

Situation. Just one thing, like when you say your friends, right, you say you're, you're, you're from this south general area, right? You, you know, and you have these friends you grew up with and you got to know. I'm willing to guess that despite these friends being your friends, and I'm sure you have a lot in common. And these people, these are women you grew up with or maybe some guy friends, yada, yada. I bet you're a little different than them in a good way. Or like you have different expectations of yourself. You know, the friends who settle down and got married early and, you know, hopefully they're all happy, like you love them. And I'm sure there's aspects of the culture you grew up in that you appreciate and enjoy. But like, you're, you're unique in a good way, right? Like, would that be safe to say? I guess what I'm saying is.

Autumn (49:24)

This, like, I grew up and my friends say that all the time. Like, my friends are very Big on that. Like, I will say one thing about me, that as I'm still, you know, working on my career, like, I'm about to go into a grad school, if you will, to further my career and get that going. So, I mean, I am still career focused and I'm doing stuff with gigs and all that. Like, I. I do have all these ideas. I don't. I'm from a small town, but I live in a bigger city, so maybe that's also where the disconnect is. And I'm not, like, constantly surrounded by that mentality.

Nick (49:55)

Still. Yeah, I guess this is the point I'm trying to make is this. Be careful to compare. Right. Yourself to people that aren't your equals. And I don't mean equal, like better or worse, just different. Right? You want different things than some of your friends. You have different expectations of yourself than some of your friends. You have different dreams and interests than some of your friends. Right? And some of those dreams and interests don't necessarily align with their interests. Right? And maybe those interests allow them to, like, I don't know, be more content with the relationships they were in and allow them to settle down early, which is great for them, but for you, it's like, you know, I also. I'm in. I have this great, like, hobby and music that I love and I'm passionate about, and it takes up a lot of my time and I enjoy it. And you. You have just different dreams, you know, And I think that's okay. You should be proud of that. And I want you to acknowledge that in the sense that. Where it's just like. It doesn't mean you can't find relationships, and it doesn't mean you can't have both. But sometimes it's just like, you are not. You have different priorities than some of your friends that have already settled down, oh, 1,000%. Right. And so be careful not to compare yourself with people that are not your equals. It's like, you.

Autumn (51:08)

Know. Yeah, no, I completely see where you're coming from. I understand. It's just I completely. I think I do need to be more kind to myself in that.

Nick (51:18)

Route. I mean, I know the. Yeah, I know the feeling. It's just like when you look from, like, 30,000ft above and you're just like, I'm the only one left who's not married. Which is a true statement in your world. But, like, you know, there's so many other variables in that comparison that you're discarding or just not, you know, giving credit to that Allow yourself to feel less than or feel behind or feel like you're not. There's something different or wrong with you, or you feel unlucky compared to the people who have settled down. But, like, you have different dreams and hopes. And I. You know, when I was growing up in Wisconsin, a big part of me was just like, all my friends, friends, you know, same values. I wanted the same things, but there was always a part of me that wanted a little bit more. And I was, you know, I always liked bigger cities and I. I liked culture, maybe. And I was more curious than maybe some of my other friends were about things. But that kind of kept me exploring. That kept me, like, pushing for more. That kept me wanting to. Is this. Is this it for me? You know, should I pursue other dreams? And I think that that. That definitely played a role in how a lot of my friends ended up getting engaged. And I broke up with my girlfriend at the time. And I was like, you know, in my early 30s, kind of like in this transitional part of my life, being like, you know, I gotta get out of Milwaukee, you know, and I. And I left. Right. But it was. It was hard not to compare myself to them, and it was hard not to feel left behind. But, like, I wasn't looking for the same thing. Some of my same things at that time, my friends were looking.

Autumn (52:51)

For. No, I completely.

Nick (52:52)

Agree. And so I think it's just. Give yourself the credit you deserve for pursuing the dreams that you are brave enough to pursue and make sure that you're enjoying the things that you love, especially when you're feeling down. Because I just. Yeah, I don't. I don't want you to. You know, it's like you're only 26. And yes, compared to some of your friends you grew up with, it's easy to feel behind, but, like, you don't want what they want, want. And I think that's important for you to remind yourself and acknowledge and feel good about what you're chasing and what you're going for and what you're pursuing. Because that's.

Autumn (53:27)

Really. Canceling therapy this.

Nick (53:29)

Week. That's just really important to.

Autumn (53:31)

Do. Yeah, I appreciate that because I am very critical, I guess, in a way. And I don't. It's hard for me not look at the big picture sometimes. I get very honed in on a specific.

Nick (53:43)

Aspect. Yeah, we all.

Autumn (53:45)

Do. Do as most people do.

Nick (53:46)

Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't. I wasn't giving myself that advice when I was, you know, being pessimistic about, you know, my Love life and things like that. So, yeah, just. Just remember that. That's. I mean, probably one thing that's the most important thing, because a lot of. A lot of it is bad luck, you.

Autumn (54:03)

Know?

Nick (54:04)

Yeah. Narrowing down into some of these relationships. Like, listen, I mean, it's probably nothing I haven't said before, but. But unfortunately, guys, now more than ever are maturing slower than they ever have been in the history of the.

Autumn (54:19)

World. Noticed a.

Nick (54:19)

Trend. Yeah. And that's a bummer. And it's not like men were maturing that quickly, even before things got worse. And it's a tough balance. Right. Because you don't want to become cynical, and you don't want to become the person who just doubts all men. You want to have the freedom to like someone when you like them. I get it. You want to be like, all right, well, like, I don't want to constantly be doubting someone. But I think there's a fine line between being this negative, cynical, pessimistic person in every dating situation you're in versus, you know, you still being intentional and you still having your guardrails and boundaries as things progress and still being able to dictate terms at the pace that you want to go. You mentioned, like, I, like, I want a guy to lead and set the pace, and maybe that's a problem. And there probably is a bit of a problem.

Autumn (55:13)

There.

Nick (55:13)

Yeah. You know, in the sense.

Autumn (55:15)

That. Before, for.

Nick (55:16)

Sure. You know, because here. Yeah. It's like, I don't want to pursue a guy. I want to pursue me. Great. Fine. You know, like, typical. Like, you know, as I think a lot of women do, like, would prefer to be pursued.

Autumn (55:28)

Right. I will say, I don't think it's even more of, like, I want a guy to pursue me. I just think it's like, I just don't do it. Like, it's just not something. It's just not in my nature to go after.

Allison (55:37)

Something.

Autumn (55:38)

Yeah. So for the most part, it's just the guys that pursue me are the ones I end up.

Nick (55:41)

Seeing. But there's got to be something internally that it's just like, I don't like doing this. I'm not gonna do it. All right? And then he does it. And then when these men do this thing and perceive to be really intentional and thoughtful and deliberate for a period of time, there's something inside of you that says, all right, this is enough to, like, let all my guards.

Allison (56:03)

Down. Oh.

Nick (56:04)

Yeah. When that happens and just move forward. And internally, it feels like a reasonable amount of Time, maybe it's like four good weeks of a guy really. You know, just all these green flags. But as you've heard me say before, it's just, just that's not a great deal amount of.

Autumn (56:21)

Time. No, it's.

Nick (56:22)

Not. You know, rewind five or ten years, you, you. It would be right in certain situations. But now with dating culture and the abundance of options and choice and, and things like that, you're. You're meeting a lot of men who like the idea of settling down and like the idea of having a family and like the idea of, of being that person. But y. Realize what that maybe it takes, you.

Autumn (56:47)

Know?

Nick (56:48)

Yes. And then they meet you, their folk go. And then you. Things go well and you're having dinner with parents and things like that. And then yeah, it's, it, it moves at a pace where it gets too serious for them. And I think probably when you decide you like a guy, you still really need to be very cautious. And still I think that's when you really need to dictate.

Jessica (57:12)

Terms.

Nick (57:13)

Okay. Even men with the biggest of personalities in the, you know, who the alpha males or what, you know. You know, it's just like even those guys, I think deep down want to find. Everyone wants to find their equal. Right. And everyone, and especially guys like a challenge and young men like a challenge. And there is a bit of game playing early in relationships. And I know everyone says they don't like to play games, but it is what it.

Jessica (57:39)

Is.

Nick (57:40)

Yeah. And maybe you're just not playing the game correctly. 1,000%, you know, not. And again like a lot of it is this. Like maybe some of these guys, you might be like, you know what? I'm not gonna date a 24 year old guy. Variables are different. You knew this guy, there's a level of comfort. Maybe he felt more mature for his age than he was 24. But like the reality is, is like a guy who lives with his parents who's.

Jessica (58:05)

24.

Nick (58:06)

Yeah. Who is this. Clearly like maybe not ready for the big picture stuff. You know, like maybe he's not as independent. Like to me that says this is a guy who wants to be independent. Maybe has a lot of potential to be independent, has the right idea and the right plans, but he's this not there.

Autumn (58:22)

Yet.

Nick (58:22)

Yeah. And that's a sign of a guy who probably thinks he, you know, is, is testing the waters on things and then realize it. And the signs are, you know, the next guy you, you, you date and you're like, oh, you live with your parents and it's just like, oh, my God. You know, it's just like that again. Yeah. You know, maybe the next guy you meet who lives with his parents is your husband. I don't know. It's like, you can't. Every. Every situation is different. But I do think it is fair to see things as red flags or green flags, you know, and be wrong. But you can still be like, I don't know, like, everyone wants to prove, especially early in dating situations, that they're not. Not the cliche. You know, I'm different than the rest. Right. So early on, people are always proving that they're, I guess, better than they are or. Or they want.

Autumn (59:12)

To. I.

Nick (59:13)

Mean.

Autumn (59:13)

Right. Yeah.

Nick (59:14)

Absolutely. So we all do it. Yeah. So I just think it's just really important early on to still be, you know, to get them to keep chasing you in a.

Autumn (59:23)

Way.

Nick (59:24)

Okay. And it's. I know it sounds annoying and silly and.

Autumn (59:26)

Frustrating. Yeah. No, but I completely.

Nick (59:29)

Understand. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think. Yeah, it's the. I make them chase. I make them chase. I'm unavailable. They clearly love this chase. Right. This. Like. I don't know if she's gonna like me. I don't know. She's very pretty. I don't know if, like, oh, what have. And then, oh, my God, she likes me. And then at that point, you get very, like, yeah, I like you. And you get very accommodating and very intentional. And these are, like, probably healthy behaviors you're trying to demonstrate, but they're just. But they're just like, yeah, she likes me. I. That was. That wasn't that. Okay. I mean, she's. I'm in control now, you know? And these. And, yeah, this idea that this early on, these men who just a few weeks ago were wondering if you liked them and hoping you would give them a chance, are now texting with you all day long on the phone constantly. It becomes this routine, and now they quickly forget that this was a woman who was, like, not giving them the time of day, or they thought, there's just no way she's gonna like me. And now they just feel very much in control of that situation. And I think for a lot of people and a lot of. Especially young men, it just. It gets less exciting for them now more than anything. What's really important with these situations is, like, you shouldn't be doing things differently to get them to like you.

Autumn (60:48)

More. Was gonna say I was like, but is that even worth it? Because that just sounds so toxic. Like, do I even want a guy Do I even want to try to be with a guy that only want, like, where I have to make them.

Nick (60:59)

Change? The only difference here is you want to do things differently so that you feel in control when things don't work out. Because right now you feel like you don't have control. Right? So you, you play hard to get. You play hard to get. You agree to like, you tell yourself you like them and then you allow yourself. You, you put all your guardrails down, you feel comfortable with them, and then you get lost in the sauce. You know, you're like, you, you feel safe enough to be comfortable and then they pull the rug out of.

Autumn (61:35)

You.

Nick (61:35)

Yes. And regardless of how you really feel about them and regardless of the real potential, that's when your ego kicks in and you, you're just like, well, I'm a loser. They broke up with me. Like, how could they broke up with me? They're the one chasing me. It's just like, you know, it just, it just with your emotions, it fucks with your.

Allison (61:51)

Head.

Nick (61:51)

Absolutely. You know, and it really changes the reality of the situation. I, you know, because you're right. Like this 24 year old guy or this 27 year old musician who, you know, is still pursuing a music career, a career that's obviously highly competitive, as I'm sure you know. And like just, you know, know he can be on a world tour and still be like, not that big of a deal, you know.

Autumn (62:13)

And. Yeah, and that was so.

Nick (62:15)

Competitive. Right. But like, he's close enough to be able to like chase that dream and maybe has a couple moments where it's like, I could really do this thing right. And then he meets someone who's like, you need, you need to be in Nashville, man. That's where all the music's happening, you know, and he's like, yeah, I kind of do this. What I'm saying is like, you could be dating these men in these periods of time where in the, in the past you would let your guard down. Down. I would like to see you still kind of have that will see, you know, not be always available. Not be, you know, you dictate terms on the pattern on which they reach out. You know, sometimes you're just not available. Even if you are, you know, maybe you're just like, why? I've known this guy, we've been dating for two weeks. Why are we texting all day.

Autumn (62:57)

Long? I agree with that.

Nick (62:59)

Yeah. And so that way you can see how they respond and how they handle like you being less available. And I Think you still pay attention to their behaviors and signs so that like, I want you to come to the realization that these aren't the men for you before they come to the realization. And then you can feel more in control. Unless, you.

Autumn (63:20)

Know.

Nick (63:21)

Yeah. Tortured or, or cursed mentally as you said. You know, like, because you're clearly not cursed, you're.

Jessica (63:29)

Just.

Autumn (63:29)

Yeah. Know, I mean obviously it's, it's just an ongoing running joke that I have said for years now because it just can't.

Nick (63:35)

Stop. But you got to stop. You got to stop with the narrative. Those narratives that we tell ourselves in our head are very powerful and I think we joke about them and we're like, oh, you know, I tell myself, but like that really, that really matters. You know, these narratives we put in our head, I really believe that we, we manifest our reality to a certain degree. And so if you tell yourself your curse, if you tell yourself all these negative self limiting beliefs, they, they become.

Autumn (64:00)

True. You know, you say it so many times, you make it a.

Nick (64:03)

Reality. Yeah. Rather than, rather than having the narrative of I'm very comfortable with who I am, I'm very comfortable with my choices. I'm, I'm, I know what I want for myself, you know, and I'm committed to pursuing those dreams. I'm still open and available and willing to date and I have the capacity and the time to do that while I pursue my dreams. That being said said, I'm not for everybody. These people won't fit into my life the way I want them to. Again. It's really about you being in control of your life. And I think the more confidence you have about the choices you're making for yourself and knowing that you're the priority in your life and then finding that balance between how does my life fit in with a relationship that's going to require a lot of work with the dreams that I have. But just feeling good about your choices, I think will that will stop you from. There's something that's happening where you, the girl I, you know, in you that grew up and went to high school with these other women in this community. You know, it's. And then these guys who flake. You forget all these other things that you're.

Autumn (65:10)

Doing.

Allison (65:11)

Yes.

Nick (65:11)

Without. You stop being proud of what you're doing. You stop being proud of what you're accomplishing. You stop. You know, when you compare yourself to your friends. Friends, it's just that I'm single. They're not. You forget when you're comparing that you're like well, I'm doing this and they're not doing that. I'm pursuing this. They've never done this. They're asking me all these questions about this. They're excited about my life, they complain about theirs, they're complaining about their husbands, yada, yada. All these. You're, you're just, you're comparing, but like you're, you're cherry picking what you're comparing in a way that makes you feel less than and makes them feel like they have more than you. You. Yes, that reality is.

Autumn (65:46)

False. Yeah. I've definitely caught myself letting being single become my whole identity. And I like, have to take a step back and be like, that is like such a little tiny part of my.

Nick (65:55)

Life.

Autumn (65:55)

Yeah. So, like, I have to remind myself that multiple times. It's just sometimes it gets hard.

Nick (66:00)

Obviously. But no, it, it's. There's nothing I can say that's going to make it less.

Autumn (66:05)

Discouraging.

Nick (66:06)

1,000%. But yeah, I think that's the, the biggest thing for you, you is to really, in these situations, ask yourself, okay, how. What do I need to do to feel in control? And I think you should. I guess what I was trying to say is like, you gotta find that common ground that makes both of you feel that he's still kind of leading the charge. It's like, I want him to feel like he's in control, but you're secretly behind the wheels being like, yeah, I mean, I'll let you think you're in control, but. But I'm very much in control of my dating life and I will decide how things go for me and I will decide when we move at a different pace. You know, in that situation where you asked, how are things going? And he almost like kind of felt gaslighty where he was like, thanks for being honest and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's a key. Like that key moment. I want you to be like, yeah, it's frustrating, but like, thanks for your honesty. I'm good. You're right. You don't want. I want. It's like when someone says you're looking for something that I, I'm not ready for, it feels like a rejection. It feels like a, you know, it, it feels like he's just giving you some line. It is a.

Autumn (67:18)

Line. It is a line, but it's also not when he was the one that was setting.

Nick (67:21)

That. Exactly. But it's also not untrue.

Autumn (67:23)

Right? Oh.

Nick (67:24)

Yeah. And if it would have come from you and if you would have realized that first, you would have felt way more in control of this situation. You would have been way less sad. And you've been like, I don't know. It's like, he's cool, he's nice, and I've known him for a while. He's a really sweet guy. We have a lot in common. But honestly, like, it just. Just kind of gives me the ick doing this. And it's like, I don't know, it's just like he's a little too. Not as independent as I thought, and he has some growing up to do. And it's like, he's nice, but, like, I don't know if this is my.

Autumn (67:50)

Guy.

Nick (67:51)

Yeah. And the. The situation is exactly the same, but you feel completely different because of your attitude about this relationship. You're on a date with someone, right? You're learning about them. They're like, oh, I live with my parents. You don't have to be like, run. But some of these guys, I guess what I'm saying is you. You must be just ignoring red flags. And not like, red flags where it's just like he's potentially verbally abusive or. Or something. It just could be like a. A red flag for you, which is like. Yeah. If you feel really ready to be intentional and committed to really. And it sounds like you are like you. It sounds like you feel like you know what you need to do in a relationship when you're ready for that relationship, and that you have the capacity to pursue your dreams and still give the appropriate amount of priority and energy to the relationship that's right for you. Right?

Autumn (68:47)

Yeah. No.

Nick (68:47)

1,000%. But even though you like a guy, that doesn't mean he's ready or that the relationship's ready. And I think you still have to be willing to like a guy, be curious about him, be excited about its potential, and still acknowledge that we're still feeling each other out. You know, he is especially. I think a lot of people do this, but especially young men, you know, when they're like, oh, he says he wants a family. And this when. When they say all the right things early on, they're trying it out. They're like, they're like, that's such.

Autumn (69:19)

A good way of looking at.

Nick (69:20)

That. It's like, well, let me see how this feels to say this to you. Pretty good. You know, like, you know, they. They like the.

Autumn (69:26)

Idea. I've never thought of it like that. That's. Makes so much sense now, actually. It's more of like, free trial. Not. Not the.

Nick (69:33)

Subscription. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, here they meet you, there's like, oh, I'm attracted to her. You know. You know, they. You like the same way you're on a date and you're just like, you're checking off all these boxes in your head. Green flag, Green flag. They're doing the same thing to.

Co-host (69:47)

You.

Nick (69:47)

Yeah. You know, and they check enough of green flags early on, they get really excited and then they start like trying things out, you know, in terms of saying things. And again, it doesn't mean it's a lie. They do want those things someday. Someday, you know, and they think that and then they meet you and they're like, wow, she's really great. You know, maybe I want it with her, you know, but something about you changes to them. And I think that that is. And the thing that changes Mo probably is you become this, like. I don't know if I can get her this kind of unicorn person that they're pursuing and pursuing aggressively. And then it almost overnight feels like, oh, well, that wasn't as hard as I.

Autumn (70:29)

Thought. Yeah, that's.

Nick (70:30)

Fair. You know, and. And it's, it's shitty. But like, yeah, they probably honest though. They lose a little interest, you know, and their friends invite them to, you know, 24 year old guy and he's just like, we're going to some trip. And his friends are like, you're bring your girlfriend? Like, like, I'm, I've never had a girlfriend. It's like, you know, and he's just like, I don't know if I want a girlfriend. And maybe, you know, he's on the apps and he swiped again, he saw another girl and things like that. And he's like, well, maybe I'm not ready to settle down and maybe I don't want. I don't want a girlfriend while I live with my parents, you know, and he, he could have realized that after the fact, you know, so it's. Yeah, I know this is all just very frustrating, but it is trying to still be okay with learning that, that even though I like this guy, I still might discover something I don't.

Autumn (71:17)

Like.

Nick (71:18)

Yes. And I think you've probably never experienced a situation where you liked a guy and then like, you go from this like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know to all right, I like him, I'm gonna go for it. And like, have you ever ended a.

Autumn (71:36)

Relationship? I have.

Nick (71:38)

Yes. Early on in dating or after. It was like a long, like, like in this situation. Right. Like we're in the first couple.

Autumn (71:45)

Months? Yeah, Yeah, I. It was a. It was the same thing. First couple months, it was a guy that I had known in high school, but we didn't start. We didn't date until we were older. Like, it was going great. He pursued me all the same things, but this time I broke up. We were actually dating officially. It was like for three month period actually, specifically. And he just was kind of doing the same thing, acting a little weird. And then I actually had this surgery, like major surgery where I couldn't walk really. And so I was back at home at my hometown, recovering from that. And he was supposed to come see me and he kept blowing me off. And I was like, okay, I always go to see you. Like, I. Because he was in school still. Still. He was older than me, but he was in school because he was still continuing his education. So, like, I was always kind of having to do most of the work instead of seeing him because I was very mindful of his situation. So this is like the one time I needed him to kind of pull through for me and he didn't. And so I just kind of was like, that was my last straw. And so I did like break up with him. And I was like, I just don't think you, you are ready for this. Like, I don't think you have the time for it. And he said, yeah, you're right, and I hate that. Which I would have thought of that sooner. It was also another long distance relationship. It was an hour, just the other way. And so I would drive on the weekends, like I was already out of school. I was freshly out of college when we first started dating, and I was already working in my career and it was a 9 to 5. So I would get off on that Friday and I would drive up there and I'd spend the weekend with him and all that. And I was doing that way more than he was coming down.

Nick (73:34)

Here. That was my question.

Autumn (73:35)

Too. Yeah. It was very me going over.

Nick (73:38)

There. Yeah. In long distance relationships, is it you usually going to.

Allison (73:42)

Them?

Nick (73:42)

Yes. And are they helping pay for your travel at.

Allison (73:47)

All?

Nick (73:47)

No. You're doing it.

Autumn (73:49)

All. I'm doing it.

Jessica (73:50)

All.

Nick (73:50)

Okay. Yeah. I mean, that's another little.

Autumn (73:52)

Thing. Yeah, no, definitely. My friends get on to me about it a lot there. But I was in my head, I'm like, yeah, but he's in school. Like, I'm. I already. I can have the weekend to do that.

Nick (74:04)

And. But that is an example of. There's nothing wrong with him. There's nothing wrong with.

Autumn (74:09)

You.

Nick (74:09)

Yeah. But if you have to make concessions to accommodate this relationship, so much so that it becomes one sided in its efforts, regardless if it's a valid reason, if nothing else, that should tell you this person isn't capable of meeting me halfway. Even if it's.

Jessica (74:31)

Valid.

Nick (74:32)

Yeah. You know, he doesn't have the money, he doesn't have the time. He's in school, I'm doing all the work here. And even if he want to, he couldn't. So, you know, like this does. You know what I'm saying? So it's little things like that that you probably could identify a little sooner. You know, you mentioned earlier that you're, you have anxiety and you're an overthinker. You know, many of us are like that. Right. I think probably though, anxiety is a signal to you about maybe there's something your body's telling you. The overthinking that probably happens is you not listening to your gut and you trying to convince yourself that, well, that's not this, it's that, you know, oh, he can't afford it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna drive there. And then, oh, I have anxiety the whole trip while I'm there because like, my friends are like, why are you. And you're like, but I want to see him. And like, but you're kind of ignoring listening to yourself. That's where you feel that anxiety because you're doing something that your body says, hold on, Autumn, like, why are we doing.

Jessica (75:30)

This?

Nick (75:31)

Yeah. You know, and I, that's probably where the lot of anxiety comes from. I think a lot of people who identify themselves as overthinkers discount their gut. You know, it's like, well, I overthink too much. So it's like, you know, I don't want to trust my gut because I'm.

Autumn (75:45)

Overthinking. That's literally what I say all the.

Nick (75:48)

Time. More than anything. It's probably, it's just like I'm not listening to my gut. It's causing the anxiety. I'm overthinking, you know, and you doubt yourself. I think you really, I think you really start, need to start slowing down a little bit and really thinking about that initial feeling, you feeling about any situation and listening to that feeling and not try to convince yourself that you're.

Autumn (76:09)

Wrong. Okay, that's.

Nick (76:12)

Fair. Even if you want something.

Autumn (76:13)

Thing. Yeah. Because I, I do have a constant problem where I don't trust myself. Like, because I am overthinkers, I don't trust myself sometimes because I'm like, am I overthinking this or is this a real.

Nick (76:23)

Problem? But do you feel like you're listening to yourself at.

Autumn (76:26)

First? I guess. Like, what do you mean in that.

Nick (76:31)

Way? Well, I mean, these situations, right, where you're driving, you know, long distance relationship, you're driving to them, you know, like, is there a part of you when I know it's hard to think back that like, it felt wrong that you were always going to.

Autumn (76:44)

Them. For example, I think in the beginning it didn't because obviously we're in that like, lovey dovey era. And so I'm like, I just want to see him and I know he's in school. Like, that's my way of being a good being intentional. Like in my head I'm like, that's me being intentional. Like, I want to let him know, like, but that I'm here for.

Nick (77:02)

Him. But the first time where it goes, wait, I've been doing this a.

Autumn (77:06)

Lot. Yeah, that's when I. That's before. Yeah, that's what led to the breakup is when I started feeling that way. And my friends on top of it being like, hey, like, it feels like you always have to. Even my family being like, hey, you always have to go there. Like, that doesn't feel right. Like, I know he's in school, but he doesn't work either. Like, he could easily come on the weekends on times that he's not studying, like, or he could study at your house, you know, like, why, why is this happening? And that's when I kind of like opened my eyes a little bit and was like, man, that is kind of weird. And then the one time that I really needed him to come down here and he promised me he would, would and then flaked on me twice. And the one time he was going to really come, he told me at first it was going to be like three days long since he. To make up for it and then told me before he left, like, I'm only coming like for the day. And so I just told him not to come at.

Nick (77:56)

All.

Autumn (77:56)

Okay. And so we just kind of ended it.

Nick (77:58)

There. I really think you're just not trusting your initial instincts as much.

Autumn (78:01)

As. Yeah, I think you're.

Nick (78:02)

Right. Could be. Yeah. I think you know what I'm saying.

Autumn (78:06)

No. 1000% no. I completely agree with.

Jessica (78:09)

You. Like.

Autumn (78:10)

As. Even as we're talking about it in the back of my head, I'm like, man, this sounds kind of crazy as I'm saying it. I can't believe I.

Nick (78:16)

Didn'T. There's just a little bit of things before. Yeah, you got to find that balance. That like, again, back to the game playing where the men that you're dating, even after they've pursued you and you've agreed to and said, okay, I'm, I'm open to this. I like you. This is interesting. This is fun. In fact, this, I'm kind of excited. You still have to be able to find a way that allows these guys to still chase you. You, you know, to still pursue you. You know, pursuing you for a couple weeks does. Shouldn't give anyone, especially with all the things you have going on in your life and all the dreams that you have for yourself. It shouldn't be that easy to have all this access to you. No guy you go on a date with at the first or second date should be like, she really likes me. Yeah, she's obsessed with me, you.

Autumn (79:07)

Know, because it's usually me saying that to my.

Nick (79:09)

Friends. She loves.

Autumn (79:10)

Me. He's obsessed with me. I was like, this.

Nick (79:11)

Is. Well, he is early on gone. But then you, then you're like.

Autumn (79:15)

I don't need to be giving it.

Nick (79:16)

Back. Yeah, yeah. It's just, it's. You just have to not go all in right away. You're presenting an entirely different person than they pursued. But a lot of these guys, more importantly are, aren't your guys. And so it's not about, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's refining your picker, so to speak. The narrative of all my friends are married and I'm not is part of the reason why you are saying yes to men who are not ready to have what you want. And you were, you were open to listening to a guy convince himself that he is and then feeling special because he's doing it for.

Allison (79:54)

You.

Nick (79:55)

Yep. Rather than being like, is he, is he really capable of giving me what I want? You know, I'm doing all this work, I am putting all this energy in my life and my dreams. I'm not going to give that up for just anyone just because they say the right thing in a two week period of time and get excited about me. You know, I want you to have the attitude, of course he's going to be excited about me. I'm hot. Like, who wouldn't want to date me? Like, I am, like, I might not be for every guy, but I am every guy's like dream girl in the first month, you know, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, because guys are simple and if they're physically Attracted to you. They'd be like, oh, my God, she's great and she's nice and she's fun and she's funny. Funny. I love her. You know, like, it doesn't take much for a guy at first to get really excited about someone. Right. To really get a guy lock in. And I think really just anyone is to have that build that emotional connection, to really feel like, you know, they rely on you, you know, but you have to be careful not to, like, try to make that happen overnight, you know, it really has to. Has to be a slow burn, you.

Allison (81:00)

Know?

Autumn (81:00)

Yes.

Nick (81:00)

Okay. They have to feel like they can. They have to. To earn your willingness to give up your very precious time with all the other things you have going on. And I think in the first six months, maybe even longer, the men that you're dating should feel that a little bit. They should feel still very lucky to be dating you, and they should still in the, you know, they can be dating you, they can be going out. There can be consistency, there can be progress, and there can still be a level of, like, uncertainty from them because, you know, you're just busy. Your dreams that you have, you should be talking about them with these guys and be very clear that where your priorities lie. And I think your actions show that. They meet this girl, she's in a band, she's doing all these cool things. She has these careers, she's, you know, doing higher education things, and that's the girl that they're pursuing. And then.

Autumn (81:57)

They.

Nick (81:57)

They. You start dating. And I wonder if you're not talking about those things enough. Enough is as much as you're talking about your future with.

Autumn (82:07)

Them. That's.

Nick (82:10)

Fair. I think in reality, it just goes from them aggressively pursuing you to, like, playing.

Autumn (82:16)

House.

Nick (82:16)

Yeah. You know, it's like they went from wondering if you're gonna be interested in them to, like, I do puzzles on a Friday night with my.

Autumn (82:26)

Girlfriend.

Nick (82:27)

Yeah. You know, and.

Allison (82:28)

It'S. That's very.

Nick (82:29)

Fair. You're like, you know. Yeah. I think you still have to, like, date and not just open up your world to these men so quickly and also not try to fit into their life so quickly. You know.

Autumn (82:40)

That'S.

Nick (82:41)

Yeah. I'm gonna drive to him. He, you know, he doesn't have, you know, it's just like there is a bit of an imbalance. But I think you. You're. You're sensing that. And it sounds like the things I'm saying, you're kind of agreeing with. With. So I think next time this happens, Check in with yourself a little bit more. Listen to your body and your gut and that initial feeling. Something happens. Some guy says or does something. What is that initial feeling? Does this feel right? Does this feel wrong? And trust that. Don't try to overanalyze that. Don't doubt yourself. Be like, well, no, I'm overthinking, and blah, blah. I don't know. It's. It's how you feel. It's how your body feels in that moment. Moment early on. And your instincts are almost certainly right. And I think you're not listening to that. You know I'm.

Autumn (83:25)

Not. No. Especially, like, when obviously we're talking about the other guy, like, the guy that lives his parents. Like, even as I was telling you, and I was like, he was, like, talking about our future, and I was like. But, like, I ignored it because I was like, he's just a genuine, sweet guy and he has good intentions. But that was my gut being like, hey, that's a little wild to start. Like, already asking questions like.

Nick (83:43)

That. Definitely. Probably still, like you said, still a genuine, sweet guy with still good intentions who still wants to get married someday. You know, it just got too real, too fast for. For him. And somewhere along the line, he. The challenge went out the door, and he felt very much in control, and he felt like if he were to move forward, it was like, this is. I'm gonna have to marry this.

Allison (84:03)

Person.

Nick (84:04)

Yep. You know, but again, like, this was not a guy that you. You know, thank God it was. That.

Autumn (84:12)

Worked. Yeah. Yeah. Don't be wrong. I've never looked back at any of these and been like, that was my future husband. Like, no. Like, obviously, looking back, I'm like, okay, it was not. That was not the person for me anyway. And like I said before, like, it's not that I'm. I'm more frustrated just about the pattern than I am the guys. Like, the rejection obviously hurts. Who doesn't it hurt? But it's like I said, it's so fast. Like, it's. The relationship doesn't last long. It's not like I'm heartbroken. I'm just more like, why does this keep.

Nick (84:39)

Happening? Yeah. I think it's because in that there's that courting process, then there's the honeymoon kind of dating early process, and there's actually being in a relationship, and it's that middle part that you're kind of up. It sounds.

Autumn (84:50)

Like. Yep. No. Yeah, 1,000%. And you're talking about.

Nick (84:53)

It. You're just kind of skipping that Part you're going from the courting process to, like, all right, well, let's just. Let's, like, intentionality, you're confusing with playing.

Autumn (85:00)

House. I think that's. As we're.

Allison (85:03)

Talking.

Autumn (85:03)

It's. That's very fair. Yeah, I never really looked at it like.

Nick (85:06)

That. But now that intentionality, you know, it's this, like. Yeah, he's literally never, like, taken the time to drive an hour. I mean, like, money or time or whatever. If, you know, you'll know a guy really likes you when you're like, hey, listen, I'm really. I got a lot going on. I can't come this weekend. If you want to see me, you can come here, and I'll. And, you know, I'll try to have some time. And even then, you can be. You should be cautious. Yeah, but he'll come and see you. He'll find the time. He'll find the money. Money. He'll make the time. You have to be willing to allow these guys to keep showing you that they are really excited about you and they are willing to go out of their way long after you say, okay, yeah, I like.

Autumn (85:50)

You. Yeah. I'm just blown away because I can't believe it. I've just now real. I just, like, I've never even thought about that. I've just always been like, well, they show their intentions, so now I'm gonna show mine. I've never thought of it, like. Like, okay, I've never. I just never thought of it that way. Of where they now have the power. Because I'm the one. It's like we flip the.

Nick (86:10)

Script. Yeah. No, I mean, like, listen, power dynamics in relationships are constantly changing, you know, in every relationship. Like that power dynamic. Can I think. We always have to be mindful of that. And especially early on when you don't have that security and that emotional connection or that actual life together where you're.

Allison (86:26)

You're.

Nick (86:27)

You. You're mutually invested in a common goal. You know, you have a family together. You know, you. You know. Yeah. Things like that, where you're really bound together, you know? And you are. You are acting probably like you are bound together with this guy where there's actually no real. Literally no reason that's keeping you guys.

Autumn (86:46)

Together. I know, and it makes me sound.

Nick (86:48)

Crazy. No, it does. No, it's not. No, it's not. You. You got to get that narrative out of here. You're not crazy. You're not doing anything wrong. You're in a bad situation. That situation. Situation. Being the trash Dating scene that is 2025 that's been ruined by the Internet and social media and dating apps and. And how, you know, just everyone has on the perception of unlimited options. And, you know, 25 years ago, a guy would meet you, get really excited, couldn't believe he met someone like you in a small community or whatever and be like, this is insane. I'm. You know. But now he meets you and then he, you know, it's. He goes on a trip with his friends. You don't talk for a couple days, he peeks on the apps and he matches with someone. He's like, oh, she likes me too. You know, and like, that just fucks up dating, you know, and it sucks more than anything. Like I said early in the call, you have to be more confident in your choices and what you're pursuing and be proud of what you've accomplished up into this point in your life. Feel good about the fact that you are chasing things that. Not that you're better or worse than your friends, but like, you. You're different and you want different things and you're not them. And if you wanted what they wanted, you probably could have had it already, but you also want a bunch of other things. So when you compare yourself to your friends, don't leave that stuff out and feel good about your choices. And then when things don't work out for you in the short run, don't forget that. It's like, yeah, that sucks. I'm bummed. I'm a little sad. But, like, again, I still have everything I want in my life that's important to me. And that other stuff come when it's right and it's ready and for the right person. Don't discount yourself. And you gotta stop at the. I'm delusional, I'm crazy, I'm unlucky, I am cursed. No, you're just. You have a lot going on. And. And most men, not some, most men, are not right for you are not gonna fit into your life. And I think you need to own that a little bit more than you do. Also, early on, I want the guy that you're dating to be really attracted to what you're doing in your life. Be proud of what you're doing and know that you're kicking ass and be like, I'm not gonna change my. At 26, I'm. I'm. I'm not changing my dreams and goals and passions for just some guy who lives with his.

Autumn (89:07)

Parents. Oh, 1,000%.

Nick (89:08)

Yeah. That narrative needs to be very strong. In your mind while you're dating these men and you're losing a little bit of.

Autumn (89:15)

That. I definitely do, and I just don't realize it till after, but, like, obviously, reflecting, I'm like, okay, like, you're not cursed goals, and I'm working very hard on those goals, so having a relationship isn't my number one in my.

Nick (89:28)

Life. Yeah, it's. It's an. It's an important goal you have that's fitting in with a bunch of other things, and that will change things for you when you can change that narrative in your head. Head. And really be confident in yourself and in your choices. And you can be frustrated at times when it's difficult or you feel rejected, but never doubt.

Autumn (89:51)

Yourself.

Nick (89:53)

Okay. And always know that, like, it's gonna happen for me. I don't know when, but it's going to. And I know I'm a catch and the right person. I'm gonna be a great partner to, like. I don't want you to have this narrative that I can't keep a man after. That's just. It's not true. True. It's not.

Autumn (90:09)

True. It's just changing my mindset or changing how I.

Nick (90:12)

Speak. Set the terms of how these men can still have access to you early on in relationships, and don't stop setting the terms when they're like, can you please go out with me? You know? Yeah, you're very good at that. It's. After that, I.

Autumn (90:28)

Caved. I cave, and it's game.

Nick (90:30)

Over. Yeah. So try to work on that second.

Jessica (90:32)

Phase.

Autumn (90:33)

Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you so much. Yeah, no, that's really helpful, and I appreciate you kind of putting some positivity in me and reminding me that I am more than a relationship and more than being single. And I have goals. And, you know, thank you for kind of putting that confidence back in me that I've been kind of lacking lately. So I really appreciate.

Nick (90:52)

That. No problem. Yeah, I mean, that's. You got to have that, and you should have that, and you have the right to have.

Autumn (90:57)

That. Thank.

Allison (90:58)

You. Thank.

Nick (90:58)

You. I really want you to work on that. It's beneath.

Autumn (91:00)

You. It's beneath me. That's what I'll say. It's beneath.

Nick (91:02)

Me. Okay. All right, well, good luck out there. Keep us posted on your. On your love life. But I really, really. More than any. That internal dialogue that you have that, you know, get.

Autumn (91:13)

Cocky. I will get cocky. Well, thank you so much. Y' all have a really good.

Nick (91:18)

Day. You.

Autumn (91:18)

Too. It was nice meeting.

Nick (91:19)

You. Likewise. Take care.

Autumn (91:20)

Bye. Bye.

Nick (91:21)

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Beverage. Now that we have River, I'm really trying to create memories and traditions that she will carry on throughout her life and something that I'm really loving doing. We did it last year and obviously we're going to do it again this.

Allison (92:29)

Year.

Co-host (92:29)

But. But it's going to Starbucks. Getting a holiday drink and then driving through the neighborhoods and like looking at all the Christmas lights on all the houses and seeing all the houses decorated and like the blowups in everyone's front yard and like sipping on our warm.

Nick (92:41)

Hot. I look forward to that holiday drink. Also back in my sales days when I worked from home, I'd always go to a Starbucks and work because I wanted to get out of the house. And definitely during the holiday season I get my Peppermint Mocha and you just kind of see people coming in like different. You kind of feel the holiday energy with people coming in during Christmas time time. It was always just really enjoyable. I really had to get out of the house when I was stuck at home.

Co-host (93:03)

Working. Well the Peppermint Mocha is a Starbucks signature espresso combined with steamed milk, mocha sauce and peppermint flavored syrup is topped with whipped cream and dark chocolate curls. What more could you ask.

Autumn (93:14)

For?

Allison (93:14)

Delicious.

Nick (93:15)

Yum. It's honestly how I learned to drink coffee. This was my first Starbucks.

Autumn (93:18)

Coffee. Peppermint Mocha. Yeah, we used to when I worked there we would put ristretto shots in it and we would like mod it a.

Nick (93:25)

Bit. Well it was a white chocolate mocha and then during the holiday season a trim transferred over to the.

Jessica (93:29)

Peppermint. There's no better feeling than when the cups turn red at.

Co-host (93:33)

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Allison (93:40)

Good. Yeah, that's my.

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Jessica (95:32)

Going? I'm good. My name is Jessica, I'm 34 and my best friend refuses to stand up for me. Can we still be.

Nick (95:38)

Friends? Okay. Talk to me about this Friendship and why you feel like this friend is not standing up for.

Jessica (95:43)

You. So it's a little bit of a backstory, but essentially I had a job about a year and a half ago, and the day that I found out I was getting laid off, one of my. My ex coworkers, who is also one of my best friends, good friends, called me and threatened me was she, like, thought that I was, like, talking about her at work? I was not. She really had like, no evidence of what she thought was happening, but called me and was basically like, I'm gonna fuck you up. Did like, a little like, let's meet outside situation. We are all in our 30s and we all live in, like, a big city. And I called my best friend, who I knew this woman through and over the past year and a half, it's kind of just been like, I feel like our friendship has kind of deteriorated because I was essentially told, you know, she's my friend, you're my friend, and I'm not getting involved. And the involvement that I want is not for her to, like, stop being friends with this woman. It's really truly just for me to be able to, like, you know, if say, she were to get married, like, be able to, like, go to her wedding and not be like, this woman who is kind of giving deranged.

Nick (96:54)

Vibes. So what did the Would be a normal human. So you have a. You. You and your friend that you're calling in about have a mutual friend and this mutual friend kind of verbally assaulted you? Yes. Okay, what did they.

Autumn (97:07)

Say?

Jessica (97:07)

Yes. So the company that I was laid out from was unionizing at the time. And I was really involved in unionizing. I had essentially said, like, you know, I was, like, really involved in it. This woman was not as involved in it. And I guess literally the day that I found out I was getting laid off from my dream job, maybe an hour later, she called me and she said that she heard that I was talking shit about her. And she said that our mutual friend's birthday was that weekend. And she basically said that she was going to try and jump me at this birthday party again. We're all in our 30s, like, all of.

Nick (97:38)

Us. She literally was like, I'm going to beat you up dead.

Jessica (97:41)

Ass. Yeah, 100%. And gave me like, a little like, if I see you at the office, like, when I went to go get my stuff, it was like, like we, like, she literally said, we can take it outside. It was the most dumb shit that I've heard in a very long time. But it was also like, just being that we were. We both have a mutual friend and also were essentially co workers and, like, coming from, like, a professional space, it was like. It was just deranged. And I was like, I truly, you know, catch me, like, my teenage years, like, I would have participated in the fighting part of this. You know what I.

Co-host (98:15)

Mean? But.

Jessica (98:16)

Like. But, like, as an adult, I'm like, where do you have to be as an adult to not call and have a conversation? To not call and say, like, hey, I heard xyz. What happened here? Can we talk about it? Because at the end of the day, like, I'm not the type of person who's gonna, like, walk around and talk shit about a person. And if I do, I'm the type of person who will stand on it. Like, if you find out that I don't like you, I will just say to your face that I don't like you. You know? So, like, the whole thing kind of. Of encapsulated into this moment of what felt like violence as adults. And I just don't know what to do now with these friendships that I had. I should also say, like, the two friends that I'm talking about or the friend that I'm talking about is part of a couple, and I'm close with both parties in the couple, both.

Nick (99:02)

Women. The friendship you're trying to maintain.

Jessica (99:05)

Is. Is a couple. However, I only really care about maintaining a friendship with one of the girls, not the.

Nick (99:10)

Other. Okay, but the two women in this couple is not one of the women who verbally said this. They're friends with this other.

Jessica (99:17)

Person.

Nick (99:18)

Yes. Okay. And I guess I'm confused where the partnership has to do, like, there's another person.

Jessica (99:25)

Involved. So I guess the partnership has to do with the fact that, like, I guess at the end of the.

Autumn (99:29)

Day, it would be like if.

Jessica (99:30)

I. If this all happened and, like, it was you and Natalie, and I kind of said to you, like, put Natalie aside. I don't really care about fixing this with Natalie. I care about fixing this with.

Nick (99:41)

You. But, like, what. What. What's in this role play that we're doing? What's the scenario where Nally and I are in disconnect with you, but you're trying, like, what's the. You know what I'm saying? Like, did you go to both these people and say, hey, this other person said this shit to.

Jessica (99:58)

Me?

Nick (99:59)

Yes. But you only cared about having support from one. From one of those people. People, so to.

Allison (100:03)

Speak?

Jessica (100:04)

No. Yeah, I guess so. I. I went to both of them and said, hey, like, can I get some support on this? And I would say that they both kind of said no. And one of them, I'm kind of like, I. I genuinely don't actually care about that.

Nick (100:16)

Anyway. Because you're friends with that person through your main friend that you care about, so to.

Jessica (100:22)

Speak. I'm actually friends with them separately. Ironically, I met them the same day they met each.

Nick (100:26)

Other. But. What. So then why do you Only care about 1?

Jessica (100:29)

1? Just out of curiosity, the one friend. Throw me a fake.

Nick (100:35)

Name.

Autumn (100:35)

Pam. Barbara.

Jessica (100:36)

Barbara. Barbara and.

Allison (100:37)

Pam.

Jessica (100:38)

Great. Barbara and Pam. Barbara. Throughout the years we've been friends for seven years, maybe eight years at this point, Barbara has just been, like, a super supportive friend, I would say throughout the years. I love her. She means a lot to.

Allison (100:51)

Me.

Autumn (100:53)

Pam.

Jessica (100:55)

I. Throughout the years, Pam's an actor. Pam's a little into themselves. And throughout the years, I have hosted watch parties for things that Pam's appeared in. I've gone to all of Pam's shows with Barbara. I've done a.

Nick (101:15)

Lot. And you're closer with Barbara in.

Jessica (101:18)

This. Yeah, exactly. I've done a lot for Pam. I've just never felt like Pam kind of reciprocates that friendship when I'm like, hey, can you help me with this thing? Pam doesn't show.

Nick (101:26)

Up. Expectations of.

Jessica (101:28)

Pam. I have incredibly low expectations of.

Nick (101:31)

Pam. But higher expectations of.

Jessica (101:32)

Barbara. Much higher expectations of Barbara.

Nick (101:35)

Yeah. And Barbara and Pam are married.

Jessica (101:37)

Dating. They're dating. But like I said, I've been friends with both of them for eight years, and they've been together for, like.

Nick (101:43)

Seven. Okay. So they're very committed. It's very.

Jessica (101:45)

Serious. Very committed.

Nick (101:46)

Yeah.

Jessica (101:47)

Okay. And a great.

Nick (101:47)

Couple. Yeah. But Jenny threatened you, right? Was aggressive, kind of very. Like, what? You know, try to fight you, you know, on the playground, so to speak. Barbara's birthday party at Barbara's. She said this happened at Barbara's birthday.

Jessica (102:01)

Party. This happened a week before Barbara's birthday party. And Pam and Jenny was like, basically, like, we can make this imaginary fight happen at Barbara's birthday.

Nick (102:11)

Party. And then you went to Pam and Barbara and said, jenny just threatened me. And, like, what? Yeah. So how did you approach Pam and.

Jessica (102:20)

Barbara? So I called Pam. Pam never called.

Nick (102:25)

Back. Why did you call Pam first? If you care about it, I should call Barbara first.

Jessica (102:29)

Okay. I'm just, I guess, relaying my expectations of.

Nick (102:33)

Pam. Yeah. Okay, you call. Let's. Let's start. You called Barbara first. What did you say to Barbara? And what was her response, Barbara's.

Jessica (102:41)

Response was essentially, this is awkward because my birthday party is this weekend and I don't want there to be drama there. And so I offered not to go. I was told that she wanted me there. I was told that Jenny would only be showing up for a short period of.

Nick (102:54)

Time. How did you communicate with what happened? What did you.

Jessica (102:56)

Say? Oh, verbatim. I was like, this crazy shit just happened. Here's what was said. I also, like, went to HR with it because I. I was like, this is truly Nick. Like, I work in. In media in a big city. Like, I've lived in the city my entire life. Like, I've had crazy things happen. This was. I've never gone to hr, you know, and I went to hr and I was like. This was like, like next level crazy. So I called Barbara and I was like, what do you.

Autumn (103:24)

Do?

Jessica (103:24)

You. Before I went to hr, I was like, what do you think I should do about it? And she basically told me to, like, sit tight. She didn't want any drama. It was her birthday that weekend, and, like, to essentially, like, consider her feelings, which is what I tried to do for, I would say a point in time. And then I called Pam, and Pam never answered.

Nick (103:43)

Me. Okay. How did things get left with Barbara? I mean, I understand that she was just like, oh, this is kind of weird. I got my birthday party. And like, wait, it's like you called her up and said, here's how your birthday party is not going to be as fun as you expected it. I am. I. I get why that was maybe her initial reaction, but how did you guys leave it with you saying, hey, listen, like, this person got really aggressive and really weird with me, and I'm not even sure, like, you know, also, like, if you were to just put yourself in Jenny's shoes, like, regardless of how she chose to handle her frustration, right or wrong, like, do you. Do you see why Jenny was upset with you at all? Or is this completely off the reservation in your.

Jessica (104:25)

Mind? It's completely off the reservation. I mean, not only do we have a mutual friend, we work together. So, like, I can be very blunt, I can be very straightforward, but, like, I try to choose my words intentionally and can guarantee that there was nothing that was said that, like, I don't even think would warrant a conversation at any point. Like, to the degree that I. I don't know what she thinks was said, because when I asked her, she said, you know what you.

Nick (104:51)

Said? Gotcha. Okay. How did you leave things with Barbara on that first call? The. The friend you care more about. How. How did you. How did things get.

Jessica (105:00)

Left? I had told her that I didn't really feel comfortable being in the same room as Jenny until, like, something was resolved or we got to the bottom of, like, what the fuck was going on and that I didn't think that I should go to said.

Nick (105:13)

Party. Did you want or hope or expect Barbara to play intermediary, or are you hoping that they would help solve this.

Jessica (105:25)

Drama? I think that if the roles were reversed, I don't think that I. So the reason that I chose to write it in is because, like you said on the podcast a couple weeks ago that, like, you know, when your friends say something like, well, they treat me this way. I'm sorry that they treat you poorly. Like, I think for me, it's like, the way that I would have handled the situation is not necessarily to be like, you know, like, I don't at any point expect them to say, like, Jenny, we can no longer be friends. But what I would expect is for them to go to Jenny and be like, exactly what happened here. And, like, how can we all be.

Nick (106:03)

Cool? And did you feel like Barbara. Barbara was remotely interested in doing any of.

Jessica (106:08)

That?

Nick (106:09)

No. Okay. She just didn't want to be.

Jessica (106:11)

Involved. Nobody wanted to be.

Autumn (106:13)

Involved.

Jessica (106:13)

Okay. My fear would be, like, I. I host a lot of parties. I, like, I'm a chef. I have to host a lot of dinner parties. My fear would be, if this happened the weekend before I was hosting a dinner party between my friends, what I would not want is for these two friends to show up, for me to have no understanding of where Jenny was coming from, what Jenny was upset about, about why she behaved in that manner, and to have her go off at something that I was hosting or, like, brought these people into the same room together. Like, I would want everybody to feel comfortable and safe. So my concern is that at no point after this have I ever felt like anything's been resolved or there's any, like, comfortability or any, like, sanity going on here. And again, like, as adults, it's like, exactly how are we behaving and what are we doing in these spaces to, like, not make people feel like they can be comfortable if they're like, you know, in the same room together. And I'm not saying that they need to, like, mediate or manage, but the fact that, like, no follow up questions were ever presented to Jenny is, like, exactly what was going on here. And I was kind of just expected to, like, bite my tongue and hope that she didn't mean it is where I really, like, have.

Nick (107:25)

Umbrage. So what happened at the. So did you go to the.

Jessica (107:28)

Birthday? I did briefly, but there wasn't really any overlap.

Nick (107:35)

There. So nothing.

Allison (107:36)

Happened?

Nick (107:37)

No. And then. Since then, how do you feel about.

Jessica (107:41)

Barbara? I don't know. Nothing happened because I left. Like, the overlap was like, I got there.

Nick (107:48)

Early. You went out of your way to make sure you avoided Jenny. Okay.

Jessica (107:51)

Yeah. 100%.

Nick (107:52)

Yeah. You would. You would have otherwise stayed long, longer, OR Were you.

Allison (107:56)

100%?

Nick (107:57)

Yeah. All.

Jessica (107:58)

Right.

Nick (107:58)

Yeah. And when you. When you left, did you sense that Barbara understood why you were leaving or. Or she just took it as like, oh, I. I got something else going on. I'm going. Did she. Did she notice why you were leaving and that you left.

Jessica (108:11)

Early? Yeah, I had said that essentially, I was like, if. If we're not going to be, like, resolving this beforehand, I'll get there early, I'll leave.

Nick (108:20)

Early. And she's like, okay.

Jessica (108:22)

Cool. Basically.

Nick (108:24)

Yeah. And then how long ago was.

Jessica (108:26)

That? About a year.

Nick (108:27)

Ago. Okay. And then what happened since? What's happened since.

Jessica (108:31)

Then? Okay, so in the last year, Barbara's gone through a lot with her family. She's had some, like, personal things. I've gone through a lot. A lot. My mom's sick. Like, I've had a lot of, like, unemployment issues after that layoff. And we talk, we hang out, but when we talk and we hang out, we kind of just, like, dance around all of the other things. And, like, the closeness that we had, like, prior to all of this happening. Like, this is somebody that I talk to all of the time. Like, we were, like, always texting each other. We were always hanging out. Like, this was someone that, like, we confided in each other about all of the things. And since then, there's been a really big pullback. And part of that was pullback on Barbara's side, which she's told me is because after all this happened, I kind of was like, I think I'm good with Pam just being my best friend's friend or my best friend's girlfriend, and I would like to fix this relationship. I have no interest in fixing that.

Nick (109:32)

Relationship. You told that to.

Jessica (109:33)

Barbara?

Nick (109:34)

Yeah. And Pam, you told that to both of.

Jessica (109:36)

Them? I told that to both of them.

Nick (109:37)

Yeah. So you drew a line in the sand. Big.

Jessica (109:40)

Time.

Nick (109:41)

Yeah. Why did you feel the need to make that statement to both of them rather than just, like, let it.

Jessica (109:47)

Be? I think because of the way that I feel like I've shown up For Pam in the past and the way that I felt kind of dismissed in all of this, you know, with Pam it's literally been like, I'm pointing to times where I've like been asked to go to one of her like shows and was like half falling asleep in the audience because I was working all day, had to be up at six o' clock in the morning for work again, like, and was like, let me show up for you, you know. And so, so after all of this I just felt like I put so much effort into a lot of my friendships therapy. I didn't have a lot of friends growing up. So like the friendships that I have now, I really put value into, you know, that with this and with this feeling like it honestly at the end of it felt more like it was like about like him and Barbara being like, as long as we're good, it's good that I was like, I don't feel like I need to like maintain a friendship where I already felt like I, I was like putting more into it than I was getting out of it. Whereas with Barbara I felt like I was like it was more of a fulfilling.

Nick (110:50)

Friendship. Okay, that makes sense why you chose Barbara over pram. I'm still not quite sure why you felt the need to like tell them what Pam.

Jessica (111:00)

Asked. Pam told me that she feels like I don't reach out to her as often and like basically wanted to know why. And I was like, I feel like, you know, I don't want.

Nick (111:15)

To. Okay. I, I imagine for whether Pam's actually selfish or not, not doubting that she is, but I imagine for her to hear that was harsh for her to hear. Yeah, I mean selfish people don't realize they're selfish. Certainly not to the degree that maybe other people might perceive their selfishness. And then here's this person being kind of vulnerable, vulnerable to you and being like, hey, you know, I don't really hear from you anymore, like what's going on? You're like, well to be honest, I just don't really want to be your friend anymore. You know, there wasn't like, hey, you know, if I be totally honest, you know, it just feels like this relationship's been a little one sided and honestly it's kind of hurt my feelings. So I started showing up a little less and was kind of matching your energy because I, you know, you, you didn't say any of that. You're just like, honestly, I'm not in.

Jessica (112:03)

Interested.

Nick (112:03)

Yeah. Whether you're right or wrong, just understand that your delivery was probably for Pam, felt pretty aggressive and. And.

Jessica (112:14)

Harsh.

Nick (112:15)

Yeah. Probably hurt her feelings. Yeah. Barbara, being her partner, is gonna be there for Pam and support Pam and. And probably felt like, like, well, if you're gonna. If you don't want to be with Pam, you don't want your friends with Pam. How can we be friends? You. You basically said to Barbara, it's me or it's me or Pam. I know you didn't say that, but I wouldn't be shocked if that's how they received.

Jessica (112:40)

It. Yeah, I guess I understand how that it could be taken that way. I would. I would obviously never say that. Like, I think they're a great couple. I think at the end of the day, I just looked around and I was like, I. I feel like. I wish that, like I said, like, we. I met them the same day they met each other, so I've known them both for an equal amount of time, and I almost wish that I had met Barbara later in life so that Pam was just always my friend's girlfriend as opposed to having to maintain both of these friendships. Does that make sense? Like, and to me, it's not like, pick me. It's more like, I'd like to step away from this and, like, work on this other relationship because I just don't care to maintain a friendship with Pam, which I know is harsh, but, like, I don't.

Nick (113:24)

Know. No, I know, but, like, back to your analogy when you were like, hey, if I were friends with both you and Natalie, and I said, hey, I just want to, like, fix this relationship with you, but I don't really care about my relationship with Natalie. I'd been like, well, appreciate you want to being friends with me, but I, you know, like, you know, gonna, yeah, go ahead and choose my wife here. And like, I still like you, and I, yeah, of course I want to be friends with you, but if you're, like, if you're telling Pam to fuck off, essentially, you know, Nally, you know, what if, you know, it's just like, you, I imagine now gonna be like, hey, you know, I'm just like, yeah, here for you a while. Maybe now he's being a little selfish, you know, and caught up in her own world and. But she missed, you know, she noticed that she didn't hear from you as much, and then you were like, honestly, I don't want to be friends with you anymore. I would be very hard for me to maintain a friendship with.

Jessica (114:14)

You. Yeah, I understand.

Nick (114:15)

That. And in fact, it wouldn't be shocked if Nally was just like I, you know, it would, there's this no way that if you told that to Natalie and then like a couple weeks later Natalie like saw me texting with you, you know, or like going to get coffee with you, as you know, because, because we're friends and we always did that, that she wouldn't felt betrayed by that. There's just no way. So I know you didn't say that, but you kind of forced their hand, you forced Barbara's hand hand, so to speak. And they are in a very committed relationship. You know, they are in a lot of ways. One, so it really doesn't matter that you met Barbara first. You know, you could have met Barbara first and then, and Pam could have showed up two years later. You know, you could have met, you know, in their seven year relationship, you could have met Barb seven years ago and whatever. Let's say, let's say they'd only been dating for five years, but you met Pam seven years ago and then two years later Pam showed up, they started dating. Now they're five years into this very serious relationship. You know, it doesn't really matter who you met.

Jessica (115:22)

First. Yeah, I think like the point of that statement was more like, you know, I have friends that I've been friends with for a really long time and then like I'm obviously like friendly with their partners, but there's no expectations in either direction.

Nick (115:33)

With. Yeah, okay, I get what you're saying. Like you, yeah, but you did.

Jessica (115:37)

You. Either way, it doesn't change the.

Nick (115:39)

History, you know, because in that analogy, you're friends with Barb, Pam shows up two years later, you're like, oh, I like your, I like your girlfriend, I like your partner. You become friends with Pam too. And then two years into, into that relationship you realize Pam's a little selfish. You're showing up for Pam more than you. She's showing up for you. You know, it doesn't, you know that that's, yeah, that's kind of irrelevant in the grand scheme of what's really bothering you, so to.

Jessica (116:04)

Speak. So I guess like the reason that I wrote in is I'm curious, like Barb has really wanted me to reach out to Pam and I, and I haven't done it. And part of the reason I haven't done it is just because like my life was like really turned upside down in the last year years in a lot of ways. And like I just haven't had the, the want to do something that I don't want to do when I'm like, not sleeping at night because of, like, other stress. You know what I mean? And so it's just been like. It's like, I wouldn't mean it anyway. So I just. I don't know, maybe it sounds harsh, but I'm just like, if. I don't know if I can pay my rent this month, I'm not going to, like, have this conversation. Things have kind of settled in for me. Things are finally better. You know, the SSRIs are working. Um, I'm curious, like, do you think that it's too late at this point? And if it's not, how should I go about having these conversations with these two.

Nick (116:54)

People? I can't say whether it's too late or not because I don't know how you know them or how they're feeling or.

Allison (116:59)

Or.

Nick (117:00)

Or. But let's assume it's never too late, so to speak. I can't, you know, obviously speak on what you've been experiencing in life. And I certainly understand that when. When you're feeling, like, underwater and you can't get away, that you really have to, like, protect your peace and be very particular where your energy goes. That being said, to me, it sounds like you said that you had a hard time maintaining friends when you were younger.

Jessica (117:27)

Right? No, I have a hard time. I was incredibly bullied. I was like. I was.

Nick (117:33)

Like. Yeah, but you mentioned not having a lot of friends when you were younger. Right. I got to assume that that's carried over into your adult life and when it comes to your friendships, and it's got to play some kind of role. Right, for, you.

Jessica (117:46)

Know. Yeah, no, I mean, just as an adult, like, the people that I care about, I, like, really, really care about, and, like, the people that I. Yeah, that's what.

Nick (117:52)

I'm. Yeah, but that's what I mean, though. It's just like. I think you almost need to, like, chill out a little bit overall when it comes to that, where it's just like, an adult life, you know, Friendships when we were kids, on the playground in high school and college are very much different than friendships in adult life. And the biggest thing is, like, we have other things that show up, like partners and, like, our lives. You know, sometimes some of us have kids, some of us are really just very focused. Our careers demand a lot of our time and attention. We just don't have the time and the bandwidth for the same type of friendships that we had when we were younger. Right. And as you get older, you really realize, you know, your. Your circle gets smaller and Smaller just because it's like most of those people, like, you know, just don't have the bandwidth, you know. And my best friends that, you know, from high school, I have, you know, some of which I'm still friends with. We're still close friends, but I hear from them once a month at a text because we're fantasy football, you know, type of thing. It's just the dynamic changes, right? You're someone who really found value or finds value in your friendships. You're single. No, you're not single. Okay. Regardless, your friendships were really important to you, and the ones that you had, you really were like, I'm very intentional with these friendships. I. I give a lot, but I demand a lot. Right. You kind of have to own that in a sense and then realize that maybe can, you know, can you. Can you pare it back a little bit? I remind Natalie this all the time. You know, we have friends that we're friends with, close with. We'll even be like, love you. You know, when we hang out with them and see them and not see. See him. But some of those friends, it's just like, I have to remind Nally, it's just like, this is who this friend is, you know, they're not going to change. Do we want to be friends with this person? Yeah, because they're a good time and they're fun, and we still get a lot of value from this friendship, but there's things we can't get from this friend. And so we're going to stop expecting that from this friend. And we're going to stop being disappointed when this friend doesn't show up for us the way we would be willing to show up for them. You know? Know, this is a friend that at times you could say is selfish. Right. But it's like, you know, when Natalie and I talk about it, it's just more like, well, yeah, I mean, we still enjoy this person's company, but once I stop expecting this from this person, it's just a lot easier for me to be friends with this person. And she has different expectations with different friendships. You know, a lot of times it's based off of like, okay, well, one friend, she gave and she got back, you know, and it got closer and closer, and it really felt like the type of friendship where she's like, I can expect a lot from this friendship because I get a lot from this friendship, and it's mutual and it's equal. And I don't feel like I'm fighting for this, and I don't constantly feel let down or disappointment, and then she feels safer and vulnerable to, like, really feel close to this friend and other friends. It's like, I know I'm. This is a close friend, it's a great friend, but this friend's shown a pattern of letting me down here, and so I'm just going to stop expecting that. And I think as an adult, in adult friendships we do have, we have to be able to, to have that balance because that allows us to maintain friendships that we'd otherwise not maintain. You know, does that make sense? Am I making.

Jessica (121:00)

Sense? No. 100%. Yeah. I, I mean, I feel like, in a nutshell, you've just described Barb and then you describe Pam. And like, I do think that as I've gotten older, I have come to that kind of same conclusion, right? Like, there are friends where I look at them and it's like, you know, we're like, oh, we get drinks, we see each other every six months. Friend. And like, I love you, you know, love you, but, like, move on. I think the hardest part about this is that, like, those two types of people live in the same apartment. And like, how do.

Nick (121:31)

I. Well, the. So the difference in the. Your analogy I gave you in your situation, for me, what it sounds like is you're like, you met up at the same time, you're friends with both of them. You realized over time that Barb gives you something different in a friendship than Pam does. But your expectations of Pam never changed. You're like, well, if Barb can do it, you should be able to do it. This is what I expect from friendship, so this is what I'm going to give you. And, well, you stopped doing what I'm giving you, so you're. I'm, fuck off. I'm done with you. But, you know, you didn't find that you didn't accept Pam for who she is. You know, he's like, okay, Pam can be a little selfish. She's. She's an industry. It's very much me focused. And, you know, I'm going to give her some grace. And, you know, and honestly, honestly, I still have a lot of fun with Pam, and in the right situation, I really enjoy Pam's company and she's a lot of fun. She's a good time, yada, yada. But, like, you know, like, 80% of the time, Pam's great. And the other 20% of the time, Pam really pisses me off. You've allowed that 20% of the time to really dictate how you feel about Pam entirely. And you haven't been able to like change your expectations of Pam while maintaining your expectations of Barb. And then you subsequently kind of made Barb pick Pam over you because you were like, fuck off. You know, you could have just decided to expect less from Pam or when Pam asked, you could have just been honest and said, listen, it just kind of hurts my feelings. I would love to. You could have given Pam a choice rather than feel decide that Pam was incapable of doing what you needed. You probably were right. Right. You probably were just like, I, I know Pam's never going to give me this, so I'm not going to ask, so I'm done. But I think you could have had your cake and eat it too and you could have split the difference. And I think you kind of at some point in your adult life were just like, I'm gonna be very intentional with my friendships and I'm gonna, this is how I'm gonna be and this is what I'm gonna demand. I'm gonna be very direct, but I expect it back. And I think you've just been a little bit too hardlined with your expectations of your friendships and you've only had one, one set of expectations. And it's like you're either in or you're out. And if you wanna be my friend, this is what you need to do or you're done. And it's like, you should have that for the certain kinds of friends. But other people who are a good time and can bring certain value in your life, you can be like, well, well, I don't need you to do this. I get this from this person. How many best friends do you need? How many ride or dies do you need? Especially when you are in a relationship in adult life, your partner probably plays a significant role in playing some being that safe zone and being that person you can really know up to and be the person you can vent to. You don't need all of your people to do that. You have certain people who can tell you always going to show up to your events and the other people, it's like, I'm going to invite them. They might come, they might not. Outcome, you know that friend I was talking to you about? I just, we just know that like if something better comes along, they're going to do the something better that they feel is something better for.

Jessica (124:18)

Them.

Nick (124:19)

Yeah. And, and we're just not gonna, when we offer an invite to that person, we're gonna know that that's a.

Jessica (124:26)

Possibility.

Nick (124:27)

Yeah. And we're not gonna, you know, we accept that that's where that person's at in their life and that might change, but we're not going to, to demand that change. We're not going to expect that change, and we're going to be surprised if that change happens. But in the meantime, we know how to be friends with this person and be happy with the friendship we have because we know what to expect from them and what not to expect from them. And overall, when we look at it that way, we're still like, yeah, it's still a pretty good friendship, just not the same as some of the other friendships. And you haven't been able to find that, that balance, it sounds.

Jessica (125:03)

Like.

Nick (125:04)

Yeah. And so back to like, I think you could have, even in those dark times for you, you could have still reached out. You just decided. It's like, you know, you didn't have 15 minutes. You know, at some point when.

Jessica (125:17)

You know, maybe like early into this, I did. I, I will say, like, by the point where, like, there was like a switch where things started to get better, it really was, there was like a really, there was a six month period of time where like, I really was like depressed, you know, and it was just like the conversation could have gone well, but I wasn't in a.

Nick (125:35)

Place where you just weren't up for.

Jessica (125:37)

It. You know what I mean? Yeah, I really, it was, it was really dark.

Nick (125:41)

Okay. I mean, listen, so do I think it's too late? Probably not. I can't speak for certainty, but, you know, as they often say, it's never too late to make amends. I think if you're gonna make that call, you need to humble yourself probably a bit, little, little bit. Because I think you feel very righteous in how you feel about Pam and that does. And, and, and you don't have to be wrong to be humble. You just have to just. Pam feels hurt by you, you feel hurt by Pam, you both feel right. If you're able to find common ground with Pam or accept Pam for who she is and still see the value in a friendship with Pam, even if the bigger picture is to be friends with Barbara. Yeah. I think you can acknowledge that. Like, I'm sorry, I was hoping. Harsh. You know, you came to me at a time where I was just really, maybe a little rigid with my friendships and maybe like, you can get into your backstory about friendships and I've had to, you know, maybe learn how to balance friendships a little bit better. And I guess I felt this way and I didn't Think you'd be willing to do it. So, yeah, that's why I said what I said. And probably a lot of it stems from that situation A year ago. We're both ma' am. And Barbara just kind of like told you this is not my part problem, and you felt alienated by both of them and that's how you responded. So I think you can find, you can say that bothered me. I wouldn't re. Litigate that thing in the past. There's no point in, in that. And even if Pam and Barbara both failed you in that moment, you know, it's not the end of the world. You know, I, I don't. I'm like you. I don't like it when my friends say like, not my problem or things like that. I have a friend who is definitely conflict adverse, very lovely person. A situation happened, not necessarily a person they worked with or someone they knew, like a mutual. And they were friendly with this person. But I was like, hey, I need you to reach out for this per. And I, I didn't fuck with this person. So. But I knew and, and my friend was like, well, I don't really want. He didn't want to do it. He didn't want to make the call. And I was like, you need to do this for me, because I know, like, and I just. And he did, but I really had to ask him to do that. And if he didn't, I would have been frustrated, but we would still be great friends today had he not made that call. But again, I, I know this particular friend. I know his strengths, I know his weaknesses. I love him for who he is. I get frustrated with some of his weaknesses, but it doesn't, like, it doesn't stop me from having them in my life. And I think you just, you have to go from, these are my boundaries. This is what I need to maintain friendships. To like, individualize your friendships and your expectations and, and, and, and, and have a little humility and grace and just, you know, you don't have to. This is definitely a do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

Jessica (128:21)

Situation.

Nick (128:22)

Yeah. And I think you could do things to make your life happier and have some meaningful relationships, even if it feels like you're conceding more than you want.

Jessica (128:33)

To. Yeah, I hear you. It, it's the hard part is, is like, I do set expectations for myself, but I also. When friends, when people like Pam, like, also expect those things from you, you know, and then like, don't reciprocate is when I Just start to be like, what are we doing?

Nick (128:48)

Sure. But again, you didn't. You weren't willing to have that conversation, you know, in the future, like. Right. Like, you stopped reaching out more to Pam. You don't go to all of her shows anymore. You know, you certainly don't cancel plans to prioritize.

Jessica (129:00)

Pam. I've saved so much.

Nick (129:02)

Time. Yeah, but it, but in those situations, when Pam says, well, why don't you do that? You can be like, well, listen, I got a lot going on too. But, like, you know, it just doesn't feel like it's. And that's okay. It's like it doesn't always feel reciprocated. I've accepted that, but I can't. You know, that's a different conversation, you being like, I just don't give a fuck. Yeah. So you can still be friends with Pam. The relationship can be different and you can, you know, again, you just have to. You have to change your expectations. Because remember when you. When we were in high school and we're in college, our friends, especially when we're single, they are these. Those are our most meaningful relationships. You know, there's a lot of love there. You know, when I, you know, my buddies in college, it was like, you know, other than being physically intimate, we were like, we were attached at the hip. Those were the people I would go to, to really open up to. But as, you know, as we get older and we get into our careers or if we find, you know, romantic connections, we don't need those same type of relationships, you know, but we can still have a lot of value from those relationships, and they can still be meaningful, painful. They're a lot different than they were in the past. You know what I'm saying? But you're. You're having a hard time adjusting to the. That and, and, and changing your expectations, and you're still, like, in that. Like, hey, if you're. If you're in, you're in. If you're out, you're.

Jessica (130:20)

Out. Yeah. You know, so in, like, talking to them. Would you. How. How would you go about it? Like, should I go like Pam, then, Barb, should I reach out and be like, can the three of us sit down? Should I.

Nick (130:33)

Go? Yeah. First of all, I would. I'd probably call Barb and say, hey, listen, sorry I haven't been the best friend to you, and I know you've been asking me reach out to Pam, and I know that's really important. I've been stubborn and I've obviously had a lot going on. But, like, your friendship means a lot to me. And honestly, like, so does Pam's. And I'm. I'm sorry I wasn't willing to reach out. And if you're still open to that, you know, I, I miss you and I certainly miss both of you. But, like, I'm happy to make that call. And I do want to apologize for taking this long. I mean, you're going to have to show some remorse. Remorse. And not be. It's like, you weren't wrong for how you felt, but how you went about it wasn't the most productive. And certainly for them, I can see how it felt. Very aggressive and very. You left them no choice to, like, you know, like, you decided to break up with them and you. In. So to speak. And they were like, I guess, okay. And then I'd call out Pam and just say, I. I'm sorry I handled it the way we did. That was really harsh for me to say. I guess I just felt a little this and that, and I just. I just assumed you weren't going to give me what I needed and I wasn't in the best place. And I just said, I don't want you in my life. And I, I realize now that that was way too harsh. And, and, And I'm sorry, you know, and I think I was upset about that situation in the past and things snowballed and yada, yada. But, like, I, I am really sorry and I don't think you have to completely back down between some of those moments. You get frustrated with Pam, but I don't know if you need to pick that fight in that conversation. You might. You could suggest it. You can, like, just mention it, but I don't think you want to. You don't need to iron that out. This. Yeah, you don't need to be right in this conversation. You just need to be hurt, heard, and just need to see if there's common.

Jessica (132:22)

Ground.

Nick (132:23)

Yeah. Does that make.

Jessica (132:24)

Sense? Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I think.

Nick (132:26)

So. Is this.

Jessica (132:26)

Helpful? Yeah, I think so. Can I just ask one more question? Homegirl with the aggro issues, like, do I just let it go? Like, she's still in the picture 100%.

Nick (132:37)

Yeah. She beating you up.

Jessica (132:38)

Yet? We have not been in the same.

Allison (132:41)

Room.

Jessica (132:41)

No. She also wouldn't.

Nick (132:42)

Win. But, like, why, why, why. Why does she matter at the this.

Jessica (132:47)

Point? Oh, she, like, only, only in that. If we were to end up in the same room for birthdays, for whatever, if, like, I'm able to mend things With Pam and Barb, like, my concern with this woman is again, like, the. The way that this whole situation was handled and like, the shit that came out of her mouth was like, crazy. And I just want to make sure that that's not going to happen.

Nick (133:10)

Again. Do you really think it's going to happen? Like, deep, deep down, do you really think so? I mean, it hasn't happened.

Jessica (133:16)

Yet. The reason that I say I don't know is because I don't think that I have been in my adult life in a situation where someone has handled themselves in that way. Like, and so I. I don't. Like, I still don't know what she thought she was upset about, and I still don't know what her mentality is. Like, I don't know this woman.

Nick (133:34)

Well. And so I don't think you should be friended this person or try to go out of your way to mend fences that keep your distance, literally. I mean, obviously don't invite them to your gatherings. If you happen to show up to, say, Barb, a party where she, you know, just keep your.

Jessica (133:48)

Distance. Yeah. I mean, like, someone does that to Natalie. You two end up at a party with this woman. Like, what. Like, what is the. What is the move? Is it like, she shows up, I leave in perpetuity. Like, I don't feel like I need to have a conversation with this woman. But I also, I don't think you need to.

Nick (134:03)

Leave. I don't think you need to. Like, I mean, do you really think you're gonna go to a party and, like, in the middle of the party, she's gonna, like, confront you and try. Try to like, fight outside? I mean, that seems.

Jessica (134:13)

Unlikely. My truthful answer is that it seems unlikely. It seems unlikely. However, we're at a party, she drinks too much. I don't.

Nick (134:25)

Know. Yeah. And in that situation, it's one thing for you to call up Pam and Parv and be like, jenny, send some crazy to me. And they're like, okay, well, that just sounds like drama I don't want to be a part of. Versus versus. You show up at a party, Jenny shows up, and she literally physically tries to front confront you in front of everybody else. I'm willing to bet Pam and Barb would see Jenny very differently in that moment. Versus you calling up and gossiping and bitching about some confrontation you had with Jenny. You know what I'm.

Jessica (134:56)

Saying? So we're just thinking Jenny's bark is bigger than her bite.

Nick (134:59)

Situation? Probably. I mean, I don't really know Jenny or this situation. But it's been a year, it hasn't happened. And I feel like you're, you're dying on this hill that I don't think you need to die on a little.

Jessica (135:09)

Bit. Yeah, that's totally.

Nick (135:10)

Fair. And you're fantasizing about situations that while may be possible, are probably unlikely and you're letting these hypothetical situations that may never happen like kind of dictate and get in the way with this relationship with Pam and Barb. Like this, this Jenny situation should not in any way at this stage in the game. If you want to mend things with Barb and Pam shouldn't be a factor. Not.

Jessica (135:36)

Remotely.

Nick (135:37)

Okay. You know, but I'm saying if this person was this dangerous and volatile, they would have gone out of your way to find you and confront you to this point. You know, they're not gonna magically like lose their and, and put you in danger because you just happened. And it seems unlikely. And I.

Jessica (135:53)

Mean. Yeah, I hear.

Nick (135:54)

You. So, yeah, I think it's not too late. And I think, I mean the big takeaway is I think you to need, need to get better at having different expectations of different friendships and telling yourself it's okay to be friends with people who aren't the perfect friend. They may not be your closest friend, there may be certain aspects of your life you don't count on them for, but they can still be meaningful friendships and they, you know, they can feel a little one sided. But again, like, unless Pam can add no value, you just have to change your expectations of Pam. Yeah, but still not make it make Barb feel like she has to pick between you and.

Jessica (136:34)

Pam.

Nick (136:35)

Yeah. All.

Allison (136:36)

Right.

Nick (136:37)

Yeah. Was this.

Autumn (136:38)

Helpful? Yeah, I hear.

Jessica (136:38)

You. I think so. I think it.

Nick (136:41)

Was. I hope it was. Sorry if it.

Jessica (136:43)

Wasn'T. No, it was. It was. Yeah, I think you're right. Like I need to, I need to expect less from some of my friends. I think that with the friends that I expect less from, I need to be clearer and like potentially.

Nick (136:58)

Even. Well, I don't know if you need to be clear. That's the.

Jessica (137:00)

Thing. I think sometimes I need to be less clear. I need to be less.

Nick (137:03)

Direct. You can just let it happen, you know, it can just be. And then when someone like Pam asks, you can be honest but more.

Jessica (137:13)

Delicate. Yeah. Directness has always been, I would say, a strength and a.

Nick (137:16)

Weakness. Yeah. It's usually how things are. You know, our strengths are often our weaknesses because, you know, if they're our strength, we're like, we're really good. We're fixated on it but our strength strengths aren't applicable in every situation and sometimes our egos think it is. And when we lead with our strengths in the wrong situation they become.

Allison (137:34)

Weaknesses.

Nick (137:35)

Yeah. All right. Well.

Jessica (137:37)

Yeah. Appreciate your.

Nick (137:37)

Time. Let me know how it goes. I'd love to know if you mend the fence with Pam or.

Jessica (137:41)

Barb. I'll send a follow up but appreciate your.

Nick (137:44)

Time. Thank you. Appreciate yours. Take care.

Autumn (137:46)

Yeah.

Nick (137:47)

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