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- [00:00]
Host
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- [02:48]
Jess
You're crazy.
- [02:59]
Host
How's it going?
- [03:00]
Olivia
Good, thanks. My name's OLIVIA and I'm 29 and I'm wondering if I should move to South Africa for my fiance.
- [03:10]
Host
Okay. Well, why wouldn't you? I guess let's just walk through. Yeah. What? Tell me about the relationship. Tell me why. I mean, obviously it's a huge move. You're moving across the world, and I imagine there's a lot of variables at play, but what are your concerns? And I guess let's walk through it.
- [03:28]
Olivia
Yeah. I mean, to start, I love it there. I really could see myself living there. So I guess we can talk about it under that veil. But we met here about three years ago, live in the state that we're living in. You know, we have a house here, we have a business here. All my friends and family are here, or at least on the west coast. And so it obviously would be a huge uproot of my life. But at the same time, he is currently doing that because all of his friends and family are back home, I mean, in a different way, because our life is here together. Yeah. It's just difficult because he's a bit older than me, so his family is a bit older naturally as well. So he really wants to be there for his mom in this time.
- [04:14]
Host
How old? You're 29?
- [04:16]
Olivia
Yeah, I'm 29 and he's 36.
- [04:19]
Julie
Okay.
- [04:20]
Olivia
Yeah. So he really. He's really said to me so many times, you know, when we first got together, when we got engaged, since then, that he loves our life here, that he'd be happy if we lived in America forever. But I can see that he really wants to move back there at some point, even if it's just for a small stint.
- [04:43]
Host
So there's nothing pressing or immediate where he's like, I just got my dream job and are you willing to move with me? Or is it just like, hey, at some Point I'd like to get back there.
- [04:54]
Olivia
Yeah. So there's nothing, nothing immediate. It's more. So we are very big planners, both of us. So we're both kind of planning, planning the next couple years. And he's just like, so when are we moving back to South Africa? And I'm like, I don't know. So it's, it's kind of more so just getting myself mentally ready. And also my family, my family's already given a little bit of pushback at like the thought of it.
- [05:21]
Host
Sure.
- [05:23]
Olivia
So it's more so that I really could see myself going there. We plan to have kids in the next year or two and obviously that's a huge factor of like, where do we raise our kids and does my family miss out on the younger years versus his family missing out on the younger years?
- [05:41]
Host
So what is your. I mean, either way, it's a Safar tr. Like how, like, how do you get there? It sounds like you're on the West Coast.
- [05:48]
Olivia
Yeah. So you, you have to take a flight to the east coast and then a. About 15 hour flight to South Africa.
- [05:56]
Host
Direct flight from New York.
- [05:58]
Olivia
From the East Coast.
- [05:59]
Julie
Yeah.
- [05:59]
Host
Okay. And minus the inconvenience of the travel, do you guys have the means to go back and forth often?
- [06:09]
Olivia
Yeah, I mean, thankfully that's not an issue. We do have the means to kind of come and go as we need.
- [06:16]
Host
If we need the kids part. I mean, that's the biggest, like, where are you going to do that? Is the biggest variable. Not that you can't. Like, for example, if, if Natalie was South African, you know, Rivers almost two. I guess right now we could up and move. Like, it wouldn't like affect her life. I mean, obvious, you know, all the variables and grandparents, but like the location she, you know, like, you know, I'm saying we could still do it. So it's not like you have to decide before you have kids, but maybe before you have your second. Yeah, well, you don't have to. As he mentioned, like he said, like, he, he would move. He would live in the States forever if he really wanted to. But he's so I guess like, because right now, the way you, you seem to be communicating it, it's a lot of like he's not being super like clear and definitive. You're both being like, it sounds like you're both trying to be understanding and accommodating and empathetic to the other person, but you both kind of understand what the other person wants and needs. How long has he lived here?
- [07:15]
Olivia
He's lived here since 2020.
- [07:18]
Host
Okay. All right.
- [07:19]
Jess
Yeah.
- [07:19]
Host
Only five years.
- [07:21]
Olivia
And. And I should say the reason I wrote in is because I've always known this has been something he may want to do, but recently it's been more. We came. We went to South Africa for a month recently and came back. And I think every time we go, he remembers why he loves it so much. He sees all his friends and family, and he kind of brings it up again. So when we got back from that trip here, he.
- [07:46]
Host
Why did he move here?
- [07:47]
Olivia
Actually, for his ex. So. Yeah.
- [07:52]
Host
Okay.
- [07:53]
Olivia
Well, no, he didn't. Sorry. He didn't move here for his ex. He stayed here for his ex. He moved here for a job.
- [07:58]
Host
Okay.
- [07:59]
Olivia
Yeah. So he was first on the east coast for a job, met someone else, didn't work out, and then ended up just staying here.
- [08:06]
Host
Interesting. Well, yeah, I mean, I guess. What, like, other than, like, him randomly, like, so randomly being like, so when are we gonna move? What? When is he, like, is there a deadline? Like, when?
- [08:18]
Olivia
Think probably in the next couple years. It would be more serious. And I think what I need, like, advice on is how to approach it with him if it's, like, not necessarily the right time. Because I know I'm making him out to be very understanding, and he is, but I also think that he would. If I definitively was like, no, we're not going. He would. It would be hard for him. And then my family having a conversation with my family. He's already made, like, kind of these, like, offhand jokes of, like, yeah, when we're in South Africa. And my family's like, no. So, you know, I've said it too, to my family, and they've kind of. I think they're taking it as like, a, sure, yeah, you'll move to South Africa. But if I. If it does become reality, how I kind of break that to them, especially if we have children.
- [09:07]
Host
What do you guys do for work, if you don't mind me asking?
- [09:10]
Olivia
Yeah, I'm a lawyer and he is a works. Does, like, optimization at a logistics company.
- [09:17]
Host
And you guys can live anywhere.
- [09:19]
Olivia
Yeah, so I own my own business, and he's actually coming on to work for it as well. So we will own this business together and have a lot of flexibility that way. So that's kind of, you know, the job aspect is not as big of a deal.
- [09:35]
Host
Couldn't you guys. I mean, again, I don't know. Your financial situation sounds like you're doing okay. Is there a world where you guys could, like, buy Property in South Africa and, like, summer there.
- [09:46]
Olivia
Yeah, yes, there is. And we've talked about that because we currently go for like, a month every year. And I. We've talked about maybe increasing that time, like three months, maybe, and then, you know, spending the rest of the year here. But I think the problem is he's like, yeah, that's amazing. But, like, we'll always want to then have a stint where we are just. It's maybe the opposite. And we're fully living there.
- [10:14]
Host
Explain that to me again. And I don't. Like, he wants a summer in America.
- [10:18]
Olivia
Yes, yes.
- [10:21]
Host
Listen, if you guys are lucky enough to be able to even consider something like that, whichever direction you guys go it, there, that is a pretty decent compromise. I mean, listen, it's like, you know, you ask, like, what's the advice? How do I communicate that with him? Type of thing. I guess I would say, from your point of view, transparently you can say, listen, like, obviously I love you. I want to build a future with you. I am empathetic to, like, the fact that you are close with your family and friends, because I know it would be difficult for me. So, like, we are in a pickle, because we both get it. The only difference between your situation and mine is, like, you know what it's like to live here, and I don't know what it's like to live there. So I can't promise you how I'm going to feel being halfway across the world. And I don't know how I'm going to feel being away from my family for so long. And I don't know how I'm going to feel having kids in South Africa without my parents, you know, and support system there, you know, And I think more than anything, like, maybe articulating that, because that's kind of like, I don't know, you know? And he slightly, you know, he knows a little bit more than you. And he might say, well, I know that I miss my family too, but he obviously has done this for five years. He seems to have made a life here. He has met you. The idea of having to be here for a longer period of time, he's, It's. He has partly accepted that, you know, like, when he proposed to you, obviously, I'm sure he was like, I wonder if I could get back to South Africa. And he obviously, when he makes jokes, he makes jokes to your family, knowing there's a lot of pushback, but he's kind of testing the waters. So, you know what I'm saying? Like, he's it's not like it doesn't sound like he's, you know, either. I'm going to make. I mean, you know, people can change their mind, but it doesn't sound like when he proposed to you, it was get her. This is step one of get her to move to South Africa or we're going to break up.
- [12:19]
Jess
Yeah.
- [12:19]
Olivia
No.
- [12:21]
Host
So, yeah, I mean, really, it's just you guys sitting down and figuring out a compromise and with, with knowing that if you decide to go out there, you can't promise how it's going to affect you and having kids. I mean, obviously Nelly's mom was very present early in, In River's life. It's not like, although she came and lived with us, I mean, granted, she went from Alabama to la. It's not like. Yeah, I'm sure your mom or your parent, I mean, you have a good relationship with your parents. Yeah, I'm sure your mom would probably come out and stay, you know, for a period of time. Yeah. You know, I. I don't. I mean, you know, I think you just gotta have to keep talking about it, but try to find the compromise.
- [13:03]
Julie
Yeah.
- [13:03]
Host
So wait, why? Why? Why? Just out of curiosity, why, if other than he's from South Africa and he wants to be in South Africa more, if he were on this call, if he was trying to be as pragmatic as possible, feelings aside, why does it make more sense to summer in the States rather than South Africa?
- [13:21]
Olivia
He. I think, honestly, it's more. I mean, it's a gorgeous place. It is, like, beautiful. It's. He has a huge community there. You know, I've made friends there through people he knows. And the school system is actually incredibly good. It's private school, but it's very different than America because it's. It's just much cheaper there and the private schools are very good. So the school system is good. And that's something to consider when we have kids. Like, do we send them to school there and then in that case they're obviously there most of the year.
- [13:58]
Host
That's appealing. I mean, listen, I don't know. I've never been in South Africa. It's definitely on my bucket list of, like, places I would like to visit before I die. It's always been on there. So, like, it sounds like an incredible place. Listen, I could be kind of cool to raise kids in South Africa and know that they're like dual citizens and, you know, obviously I'm. You're never. You're never. Doesn't sound like you're like one of those people, like, I want to get out of America, you know, but like, you're, you know, it sounds like you're, you know, being an American, there's a lot of privileges and blessings that come with it. And to grow up with parents, you know, with. With both, access to both could be kind of cool. I mean, listen, whatever you decide to do, it sounds like you both are in a good situation, right? Like, I mean, that's the cool, exciting part is you. You've referenced his community, his friends several times. It sounds like it would be a fun experience. The downside for you is, you know, the culture shock and missing your family and things like that. But, you know, you probably stream Netflix anywhere type of thing. I feel like culture shock is different than it used to be in terms of, like, access to, like, feeling like you're disconnected from. From part of the world that you're in. But how serious are these conversations?
- [15:12]
Olivia
Like, we've had, I would say five or six more deep in depth conversations. And honestly, the last one, I think I got a little overwhelmed. So it turned into a. Not an argument, but a dispute over, like, him being, I think him also getting a little overwhelmed and being like, well, I really want to go. And I was like, well, I can't give you the answer right now. So it turned into that. So I think that's was fresh in my mind too when I wrote in, because after the conversation I was thinking, I really do want to go. All the reasons you just articulated, like, I think it would be an amazing experience. I've always kind of wanted or saw myself living abroad for a little bit and coming back and then, you know, having our kids have that experience too. So then afterward I just started reflecting on, like, do I. Am I actually opposed to this? Or am I just nervous about telling all of my people here and actually committing to it?
- [16:12]
Host
What do you think that is?
- [16:14]
Olivia
I think it's just a huge life move that people will be like, what the hell, she just moved to South Africa. But. And it's not even that I care that much about what everyone thinks. I mean, obviously I do to an extent, but I think it's just. And I don't, to be honest, I don't even love where we live now. So it's like, I could do a change, but it's just so drastic that I think it's hard to mentally prepare yourself for something like that.
- [16:42]
Host
Yeah, I mean, it's how I remember living in Milwaukee and always wanting to move to Chicago, which was 90 miles south and being like, that's. I don't know if I could do. This is like a big thing. So, like, yeah, it's like, you know, it's. Can imagine what it's like for South Africa. I do remember finally moving to Chicago and being like, oh, that was super easy. Could have done that last, you know, at literally any point. This is all to say my. I had a brother. I have a brother who lived in South Korea for three years teaching English, you know, so I don't really exact. Equally as like, far.
- [17:17]
Olivia
Yeah.
- [17:17]
Host
You know, and we're relatively close family. I mean, obviously, like, I don't know, it's not like I didn't feel like I lost a brother for three years. You know, he visited a few times. Obviously is easy to keep in touch through technology, you know, like, objectively speaking, I don't know if I saw my brother any less than my sister who lived in Vancouver at the time. Yeah. You know, so, yeah, I mean, like, it's not, like, impossible. It's definitely super inconvenient when you and your family choose to, like, make a visit. But the benefit is, like, especially if they're going to South Africa, they are going to truly like, this kind of magical place.
- [17:55]
Julie
Yeah.
- [17:55]
Host
So, I mean, again, like, I think more than anything, if you need to be able to communicate what I said before just with the. I need to know that we can come back. I need to know that's a reasonable discussion. If I agree to move. And listen, it's. You guys are engaged now. You guys have a long way to go with your relationship. I'm not saying you have anything to worry about, but that it gets tricky. You know, God forbid. You just really want to make sure you guys are on the same page and very connected and very. Just very much a team. And at the end of the day, you guys are gonna have to make sure that, like, yeah, you guys are a team. And I, more than anything, I'd love to, because this is such a. Like, no one wins, so to speak. Someone's gonna feel a little, like, uncomfortable, a little scared, a little worried. Whatever this decision is, you guys really need to feel like we're doing this together. We have a. You mentioned you're both planners. Like, we. We wanna have a family together. Our ultimate goal is, like, making sure our kids are happy and taken care of. And like, at the end of the day, no matter where we are, as long as we are together, we are fine. And honestly, like, you guys really have to set that framework and then work within that framework. But, like, yeah, I think you have to. Like, if you make the move, you have to be like, again, I just don't know how I'm going to feel. And I think it's important as a mom, you feel like, you know, safe and comfortable, especially if you decide to have children. And, you know, during a pregnancy that you are. You know, you have a strong support system and things like that, because that. That. That definitely matters. I mean, Natalie being pregnant was certainly an experience for me, but, like, it was definitely very different for her. You know, I was always like, can I get you anything? You know? You know, there's always not much I can do. So, yeah, I mean, those are pretty important variables to consider, but, yeah, there's no perfect way of doing this. I just think it's really important you guys stay a team and be on the same page, and you guys both feel like at the end of the day, it's you. Your relationship. And ultimately, if you guys move forward and have kids, it's your family that's the priority and not mom and dad on either direction and not friends in either direction. And obviously, that's lovely, and it's great to have a community, but it really matters what, like, what you guys have. It's awesome that you guys had the flexibility with work, you know, but, like, maybe you would lose that flexibility and you were required to move somewhere because of a job. And again, in those situations, it's like, hey, we're together. You know, we have to go to, you know, the middle of a. You know, it's just, like, no disrespect to Lincoln, Nebraska, but, like, if I had to move to Lincoln, Nebraska, I have a cousin there. He says it's great, but, like, it would be very. It would be a culture shock for me in a way. It would be very different. I'd feel kind of alone. Same with Natalie. But let's say we had to do it. Like, we would. We would make it work, and we would find the best parts of that place and build a community, but we would have each other, you know, and, like, a lot of families do that or forced to do that, and yours is just, like, further away. But at the same time, there's a lot of exciting, cool.
- [21:03]
Olivia
Yeah.
- [21:04]
Host
Things about it, you know?
- [21:06]
Olivia
Yeah. It's good advice. Just, like, always remembering that we're a team and the only reason we would be doing this is to stay together and, you know, decide together that that's where we want our life to be right now. And I think we do. Do A good job at, like, coming back to that. And he does a very good job at it, too, because, I mean, he's here now and he's like, you're. You know, I'm here not because of me. He was living already. But I do. I do just sense it a lot with him. Like, in his conversations with me about, like, that he would be in South Africa if we. If we never met. It's like a.
- [21:40]
Host
Like, yeah, he would have gone back.
- [21:43]
Olivia
Yeah. So it's. I think I just feel a lot of guilt or, like, pressure on, like, the timeline of it. And obviously we do have the conversations of, like, we're a team and we're together in doing this, but I think he's kind of the balls in my court, in a sense. And I think your advice is good to, like, make it more of a joint conversation and make him understand how difficult. He already knows how difficult it is, but how difficult. Like you said, I've never lived there, so I have a different mindset.
- [22:13]
Host
Setting aside when, like, when we're making these kind of big decisions, sometimes we know. Sometimes we ultimately know what decision we're going to make in the long run. We just don't know when we're going to make it or how we're going to make it. So I'm curious for you. Is there a part of you that's kind of like, eventually I know I'm going to agree to this. I just don't know when and how. Or are you still, like, I really don't know if I could actually do this.
- [22:36]
Olivia
It's a very good question. I think I'm leaning. I. I think, honestly, I feel like it's going to happen and it's just a matter of when.
- [22:46]
Host
I wonder if, like, I wonder if it makes. I mean, knowing that, like, I wonder if it makes sense to do it sooner or later, just to try it out. I don't know how active or social your lives are now with friends. If you guys do end up having kids together, I can tell you that. I mean, again, it's. I can only speak from my experience, but it really makes your world smaller in the best possible way in the sense that you're really, like, this is all I care about that's right in front of me. Like, this is all that matters. Yeah. As long as you feel supported, it won't matter where you are. So in a weird way, I guess you could argue if you moved now, it would. You'd have more idle hands, in a way, because it was like, okay, I'm. I'm kind of alone. I mean, I have my fiance, and I certainly have made friends, and I know his family. But there's a sense of aloneness you'll feel being away from the States and your family. You will. You will not feel alone. I mean, I know I can't speak, but, like, there's a. There's a good chance you will feel like, not alone when you have a kid, because you'll be like, I got, you know, I. You will always have that baby. So. I don't know. That's an interesting way to think about it.
- [23:54]
Olivia
So you're. You're saying it's better to move now?
- [23:57]
Host
Like, well, I've kind of changed my mind. I mean, I don't know what's better.
- [24:01]
Olivia
To be like, tell us what to do.
- [24:06]
Host
Moving now is interesting because it's like you. You, you know, you just have each other, so you can just kind of focus on that and not be too worried about it and. Lower stakes, I suppose, but again, a little more free time, a little more idle hands, potentially, and more risk of feeling alone. Potentially, yeah. The upside is you get settled in, you mail, you build a community, you guys settle down, get married, start to have kids. It really already feels like a home, you know, and. And that could be beneficial. Or let's say you get married here, have a kid, and then now the kid's 1 years old. And now that might make it harder on your parents and your family to then, you know, but at that point, it would be like, we're moving as a family. And when you move, I could see that in a way, making you feel less alone, knowing that, like, you have your family again, but, like, that. I can't predict how you're gonna feel. I'm literally just kind of spitballing here, so.
- [25:05]
Olivia
No, I think I agree with that. I think more so. I mean, because I've been there a lot. Not a ton, but a lot. I do feel like it's, you know, I could see it being comfortable for me and being a home and, you know, bringing kids there. So I think I like the idea of having K kids and then maybe moving as a family. I also think. I don't know, when you said, like, move now, I didn't have a great feeling about it. So I think maybe I just need more time or maybe I do want a family so that I'm not feeling. It's not just my husband that I have. I also have a baby to care for. I don't know.
- [25:45]
Host
I mean, you don't know how you will feel once you have the baby. It could make it trickier. And I imagine. I imagine if you presented that, he would. He would. It might make him feel a little.
- [25:55]
Olivia
Uncomfortable avoiding to have a child.
- [25:58]
Host
Yeah. Because then it's like. Well, because if. Without having been a dad before, if you presented that to me, I would have been like, that's gonna make it even more impossible. We're gonna be. Our roots are gonna be here. Your parent. You know, like, there's a strong argument to be made that it might be. The actual move might be more emotionally difficult once you have the kid. Once you get there, it also might make it a little more easier to adjust, but the actual decision will probably be very difficult. And I. If I'm him, I. I could see why that would be like. Okay. I don't. Okay, I guess.
- [26:36]
Olivia
Yeah. Yeah, I can see that for sure. Well, then, I mean, I guess.
- [26:40]
Host
But it's one of those things where if you. It sounds like. I don't know how impatient he's getting, but there's also a part of him that probably doesn't really know for sure whether you're ever really gonna do this.
- [26:50]
Jess
Yeah.
- [26:51]
Host
And so you have. If you can get to a place where you feel comfortable making that promise, where it's just like, listen, I'm still wrapping my brain around this. I don't know when, but, like, I promise you, we will try this out. I don't know if it'll work. I don't know if it'll stay there, but we'll give it a real shot, you know, a few years. And ultimately, I think you probably have until your firstborn is in some kind of school system to really decide where you, you know, where you settle down up into that point. You know, you guys could go back and forth. Your kid won't know the difference. Would be kind of exciting. And even then, it's not. You can't move once they're in school, but it does make it more difficult once you've really initiated them into your community. And. And that. That makes it harder. But, you know, for the next, you know, five plus years, you guys, you know, and if your jobs make it flexible, you. You have a chance to try it out. And again, like, if, you know, if you're lucky enough to. Summer one is. Is summer at a different. Is summer's in the winter there, isn't it?
- [27:55]
Olivia
Yeah, it's. It's in the winter. And actually their school system is more normal. It's January to December, so there's not really like a summer break. Like there is.
- [28:05]
Host
Oh, they don't. Oh, no.
- [28:07]
Olivia
So it's. It's flopped. So there's that to consider as well.
- [28:11]
Host
Well, that's a win for you.
- [28:12]
Olivia
Yeah, it is.
- [28:13]
Host
So you could be like, I live here. We summer there. Because you guys don't have a summer for us to do that.
- [28:18]
Olivia
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Very true. I guess I'm just more the anxiety that I get because I know that if it were just us and we were never having kids, I know for a fact, like, let's go try it out and it'd be fine. But knowing we'll have kids hopefully in the next couple years and rooting them in a school system. I know I moved around a lot as a kid and it wasn't great. I think I've always wanted like a very. Not that it wouldn't be stable, but if we're moving back and forth and, you know, taking them out of their friend group and out of their community and sports and whatever, I think it just then gets very tricky to then make the move back to if we did want to at some point potentially.
- [29:05]
Host
But that being said, I mean, I don't know what you mean by trick. It was. Wasn't good. I'm sure there. I. I understand there are parts of it that you probably hated. You'd seen. You seem to turned out, you know.
- [29:17]
Olivia
Yeah. And also it was a different situation. My parents are divorced, so it was like back and forth for that. Which obviously is different than back and forth with your family.
- [29:27]
Host
But listen, there's no easy way to make this decision and there's no way you can guarantee how either of you are going. Like, I think the biggest thing is, is you. It's really important you guys feel like a team and you feel supported and other than you promising to someday move, you guys can't. You have to both acknowledge. You can't promise how the other person, how each other is going to feel about these decisions. But it's. You really have to have the mindset that wherever I am, as long as I'm with you, will be okay. And then do your best to try to like, just be sensitive to the other person's needs and do what you can to try to do that. I mean, like, at the end of the day, you're both going to like, willing to bet that if you move there, you guys are going to have to. You're going to want to visit a lot more than you would probably have to visit the other way around. I don't know, maybe not. I don't know, maybe both. You know, you just get those freaking flyer miles, you know?
- [30:21]
Olivia
Yeah. Yeah.
- [30:22]
Host
But also, like, potentially, I mean, what an exciting life, you know?
- [30:27]
Julie
Yeah.
- [30:27]
Host
So. Yeah, I would also focus on that, too. Like, most people aren't in this position where they feel like they have this fiance that they love. Sounds like he has a pretty good family, and it sounds like he's doing pretty good for himself and so is his family and a beautiful place that, you know, most people never are lucky enough to visit, let alone live, you know, and having the flexibility to potentially go back and forth is kind of exciting. Obviously, these decisions are big and scary, but you don't have to, like, you can get it wrong, so to speak. You know, you can come home, you can come back. You guys, you might have to work through it. There might be some tough conversations, but, like, you. It. You don't have to. Yeah, you don't have to get it right, so to speak. You can. You can. You can make a decision. You guys can experience something together, and then you guys can change your mind.
- [31:17]
Olivia
Yeah, you just got.
- [31:18]
Host
You. You really have to be on the same page. And, you know.
- [31:22]
Olivia
Yeah, that's really good advice because I. It's, like, very calming because I think to me, I'm like, I'm making this decision, and if it's wrong, it's the end of the world, or, you know, I get very, like, spirally about those things. So I think it's very calming to be like, it's okay if it's a wrong decision or I'm not happy there, or whatever the case may be. I think I'm more so, like, worried about disappointing him if I end up not being happy there because he loves it so much. He.
- [31:50]
Host
I have a. I have a woman friend. I don't know you. She's a. She's you. Everyone is. But she's a unique person. She's also, you know, I don't know. She's from Georgia. She met a guy. She lives in France. She couldn't be happier. She has two kids there. You know, she's living her absolute best life. I'd never in a million years would have imagined she would have moved to France. I would have imagined she would have had kids. But now she's in France, you know, with a hockey player and truly living her best life, and she's never been happier, you know. Yeah.
- [32:26]
Olivia
So good inspiration.
- [32:28]
Host
Yeah. I mean, she. She looks like she's really, truly heavy from the. From afar, on social media. She she's living the dream.
- [32:36]
Olivia
Yeah.
- [32:37]
Host
Yeah.
- [32:38]
Olivia
Well, no, that's, it's, it's good advice just to, to take it in stride kind of and just see how I feel about every step. And yeah, your questions were, were a good thought provoker. So I think it is. Just start conversation between us.
- [32:53]
Host
Well, keep us posted. Even if, if a couple years go by, you finally make the move or, or don't make the move, let us know. We'd love to follow your story.
- [33:01]
Olivia
Yeah, I will, definitely. And love your, love your show.
- [33:04]
Host
I appreciate you.
- [33:05]
Olivia
Yeah. All right, well, nice meet you.
- [33:07]
Host
All right, you too.
- [33:07]
Julie
Bye.
- [33:07]
Host
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- [34:33]
Julie
Good.
- [34:35]
Host
Are you sure?
- [34:37]
Julie
Yes, yes, I promise I'm good. All right.
- [34:39]
Host
What's your name?
- [34:39]
Julie
My name is Julie and I am 31.
- [34:42]
Host
How can I help Julie?
- [34:43]
Julie
So basically my best friend of the last 10 years has always chosen a man over me and put her relationship first and trying to figure out if I should reconcile or I should just love her and let her go.
- [34:58]
Host
Does it have to be one of the two?
- [35:00]
Julie
I literally can't decide because it's, like, something that I feel so, like, emotional and, like, hurt over. And I'm, like, trying not to cry about it, but I don't know if it could be one or the other. But.
- [35:12]
Host
Well, I mean, I guess whereas I'm asking is you have 10 years of this friendship of already feeling like she has a tendency of choosing men over you? Yes.
- [35:20]
Julie
It's gotten worse over the last couple of years, but I think.
- [35:23]
Host
Is she your age?
- [35:24]
Julie
Yeah. No, she's 36.
- [35:27]
Host
Okay. So she's older.
- [35:28]
Julie
A little bit of an age gap.
- [35:30]
Host
So if we're empathizing with her, you know, she's probably feeling time passing and she's getting older and probably getting more anxious and more frustrated. The fact that she hasn't been able to, like, secure the relationship she wants. And it makes sense why it's gotten worse.
- [35:50]
Julie
Oh, my gosh. Does it? I, like, I can't decide if I'm. Here's the thing. I'm, like, very hurt by it, and I'm very, like, upset by it. So.
- [35:57]
Host
Yeah, tell me.
- [35:58]
Julie
I can't.
- [35:58]
Host
Walk me through why you're so hurt to the point where you're like, I just. It might be better to just not have you in my life, versus being disappointed and frustrated, but also just accepting your friend for who she is and her limits and her strengths and still being happy that she's a part of your life while reframing your expectations of her and the friendship.
- [36:24]
Julie
Okay, so I'll give you a little bit of context without trying to drag it out too long, but that's important context. But like I said, we were friends or we've been friends for 10 years. We met at work, and it was, like, a pretty toxic job. So we, like, trauma bonded almost immediately, and then we clicked immediately. Like, I mean, we had the same, like, interests. We have the same morals, ethics, like, whatever you want to call it. We, like, liked the same everything. And I was, like, so enamored by this friendship that I was, like, I had never had a friend like her before. And I think over the few years that we had gotten to know each other, she. She and I would, like, pour into each other so much, like, from my perspective at first, but. And, you know, she has always told me, like, oh, you've helped me through so many things in my life, and I'm not saying I need anything, anything for that. But like examples being like, when I first met her, she, you know, identified as, you know, a gay man and now she's transitioned into being a trans woman, which is great. And I'm so happy for her. And I empathize at the time that dating for her was really hard. And I understood that people of the community, I've been around people in that community my entire life and I understand it's hard for them. So I was always there for her and I was always like trying to understand and empathize from her point of view. But as like the time went on, I kind of always realized that she was almost like a self serving friend. But I was so like, I had never had a friend like her in my life that I was so okay with having her kind of dictate the friendship. And what I mean by that is it was in little ways at first, like all the restaurants she wanted to go to, we would go to. If we had a cancel plans because she didn't feel like it. We would do that if we had to, I don't know, Uber from one of our houses, it would be closer to hers. She's like, okay, let's just do it for mine. Like little ways like that anytime she would go on a date, cancel plans, which, like, that's fine. Okay. When I was in my early 20s, I didn't really care because I wasn't in a stable relationship. But I have been now for the last five years. I'm in a long term relationship. Me and my boyfriend live together. And I feel like in the last few years I have been out of not all of my friends, but most of my friends, the one that's the most stable as far as like relationship goes. And I always carved out the time for her and now she's not doing that. And in the last two years she's in a new relationship which happens to be the most stable relationship she's ever been in. And I'm really happy for her because that's what I want for her. But you know, we started to live in the same city and I saw her less and less and less and she would like lie about what she was doing or who she was with or like whatever, because she had been unfaithful in the past in a lot of her relationships. And this is the only one that she's not so that I know of. And so I, I want to be like empathetic with her, but I also am like pissed. And she's also missed a lot of like pretty big life events of mine that I would have appreciated her being there, that all my other friends were there and for. And I would have wished that she was the one that was there the most. And I haven't talked to her, by the way, in about a month and a half and I. This is the longest I've ever not talked to her. And the 10 year friendship that we've had, it's insane. And I'm just realizing that, like, now it's different, but, like, why is it different? I can't figure out. I feel like I have an answer for everything all the time in all my friendships and whatever. And I give advice to people, whatever. And I'm like, stumped and I don't know what the hell to do because I am, like, trying not to be angry, but I'm also trying to be like, I just miss my friend and like, I want her to like, be in my life, but I just don't know how to like, tell her that because I have told her that in the past and she, like, doesn't, like, it doesn't click with her. There's nothing resonating with her that I'm like, why is our friendship more important, important to me than it is to you? Like, maybe we're just two different people in that sense, or maybe I'm just not. There's something going on that I'm not seeing. Like, I don't know what it is, but like, at this point I would feel that she could be comfortable enough to, with me to tell me these things, but maybe she's not. And like, I don't know if I'm like, mad about that or not.
- [40:05]
Host
So I just like, so you're. You. Your statement, I thought was like a profound statement in a way that stood out with everything that you said, is that I feel like this relationship's more important to me than it is to her. That's how you feel. Which is valid. Doesn't make it true.
- [40:21]
Olivia
Right.
- [40:22]
Host
Knowing very little about both of you, from what you just talked about, you would describe yourself as someone who, you seem in control of your life. You have this relationship that seems to be really serving you well. You're content with it because you're content with your life. You have the emotional bandwidth to prioritize other things because, like, a lot of the important things in your life are stable and steady and you don't have to wake up every day for fear of losing them. It's been steady.
- [40:54]
Julie
Sure.
- [40:55]
Host
And for her, whether it's true or not, and maybe she's going about it in all the wrong ways, but she probably feels like her life isn't where it needs to be. And I can only imagine her transitioning was probably very confusing and complicated and all these things that, that, you know, I can't relate to, you can't relate to. So it's, it's, it's not that it's more important to you and less important to her. It just. It might just feel that way to you. You know what I'm saying?
- [41:22]
Julie
Yeah.
- [41:23]
Host
And, you know, your, your response is kind of makes sense, which is kind of like, yeah, you know, probably right. You don't like the answer. It's annoying. It's like, we don't. But that is this kind of the reality, right?
- [41:36]
Julie
Yeah, the.
- [41:37]
Host
I mean, listen, the. Only when it comes to friendships like this, you. You really, you. You choose to be in them. Like, just like relationships, it'.
- [41:43]
Julie
Choice.
- [41:44]
Host
But even with friendships, it's even more of a choice, right? Because there's like, I mean, you could break up your boyfriend today, I guess, if you wanted to. And, you know, it might be hard break up. You know, if you're married, it's even harder to break up. And if you have kids, it's even harder to break up. There's things that really bond people together. Friendships. It's truly like, hey, you know, right now you're literally like, maybe I should just be done with this friendship. You know, emotionally difficult, but, like, logistically easy to end friendships. You really have to choose to be in this. Them. And they're very easy to come and go. Right. Like, friends can not talk for a period of time and still be friends. Much more difficult than romantic relationships and things like that. But you really have to choose to be in them. And you feel like you're really choosing this friendship. And it feels like she's really not.
- [42:32]
Julie
Not, you know, she's really not. And I. I don't know at what point I should reach out again and be like, hey, why is it not the same? Also, so this new relationship she's been in, it's been about two years. And when we. When they first got together, she had never introduced me to any of her boyfriends. She didn't want me anywhere near them, any of the guys she's dating, like, at all. And then out of nowhere, she is planning double dates with this new guy that she's known for literally a month. And she's like, you. You and your boyfriend, like, come, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. And I was like, oh, my gosh, hold on. Wait a minute. You have a boyfriend? What? Like, what's going on? And she was, like, shoving him down my throat so much that. To the point where I was, like, uncomfortable by it. And then eventually she completely stopped. Stopped talking about him. But, like, they were still together, and it was weird. And I saw her, like, less and less and less. And another layer of this is that she also doesn't have a job right now. And she hasn't worked in probably since they got together. And that's her choice. Like, she's not wanting to work at the moment, which. And she's able to not work because he's choosing to somewhat support her. And her family is pretty, like, well off, I would say, so they can support her in those ways. But she. I almost feel like she feels like she owes him, like, time and effort because they are living under the same roof. And he pays. And he's not, like, loaded, by the way. He's not, like, someone who has a lot of money and can, like, take care of both of them comfortably. He definitely has to. Like, he picked up a second job and does little things on the side to help them have their means. And I think she almost. I feel like subconsciously she feels like she owes it to them, to him. And I've asked her that before. I said, do you feel like you have to, like, spend so much time with him because he pays for things? Like, like, you know, and maybe I was a little harsh. I was like, you know, maybe, like, don't you think, like, at this point you should, like, probably get a job because, like, don't you feel guilty? She's, like, complaining, like, oh, my gosh. I think he's, you know, struggling for money, strapped for cash this month. And I'm like, just, like, get a job. Also, like, I don't know what to tell you. And it's just, like, becoming weird. And I think maybe with her, are you some sort of guilt?
- [44:34]
Host
Are you critiquing her a lot?
- [44:36]
Julie
I really try not to. I really try to. I promise you. I come from a place of love.
- [44:42]
Host
I don't. I don't doubt that you do, but I have joked on this show before, right? I've never. I've. I've. I've. I've stood up in a lot of weddings. A lot. I've never been a better man. It's not like a thing I think much about, but, you know, there was one time where I was like, that's kind of weird, you know? And I Kind of like had this like, epiphany or realization or self awareness. Like, I, you know, I'm comfortable with who I am. I know who I am. There's a reason why I do this show. Like, I know when people call in, they're expecting the tough love or the direct advice, and it's just like, I'm just gonna cut through it. I've had to learn how to be empathetic over the years and deliver my message sometimes. And yeah, I've always been the friend who has a strong opinion, and I've always been the friend that people go to advice. So, like, I'm. I often did I having this realization. I describe myself as like the friend you every once in a while really need. But I'm not always the friend that you want. I'm not always like the friend who is like, you go, you call for the good time. And I feel like the best man is always like that person who's always just there to bring up. It's just a fun person. I'm sometimes the Debbie Downer. I'm always like, I don't know if you should do that. You know, Like, I'm. Sometimes my opinion's not welcomed, you know, or wanted. And sometimes I've had to learn over the years that, you know, I can be a judgmental person. And even when I'm not sharing my opinion, it's sometimes all over my face, you know, and sometimes I, you know, I have to have the self awareness that, like, my energy or my presence might not even be wanted in a situation. Which is why I feel like even in all these close male relationships that I've had where they're like, hey, I want you to be a part of my wedding. And I've even had some of my friends been like, I wish I would have had you be my best man or whatever. But like, in the time, there was always like that other buddy who was like the fun buddy and I was like the maybe more critical. And so when you say, I try not to, there's an acknowledgement that, well, whether you try, you are still that friend. And it wouldn't shock me if, like, part of the reason why she doesn't want to hear it. She knows you well enough now to know she doesn't have to hear your opinion to know what your opinion probably is. And maybe just doesn't want to feel judged by your presence and doesn't want to be criticized and doesn't want to be coached and doesn't want to be mentored. Sometimes she Just wants a friend to say yes. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's why. You know, when I was describing why I wasn't the best man, or I was like, you know, not. Like, I didn't talk to my friends about this. This was something I just thought internally. But that's kind of my point. Like, there was always maybe the friend that, like, they would call up, you know, in your situation you're describing, I might have been the friend who'd been like, well, are we sure that's the right decision? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And another friend be like, yeah, let's double date. Great. Let's go. Have fun. I got no questions. I got no expectations. You know, I'm just here for the good time. You're on the double date, and she sees you across the table feeling judged, feeling analyzed. There was a friend actually was gonna say it was Teffy. You know, Tello Teffy, you know, she is. She's an influencer. She's been on the show before. I don't know, maybe potentially funny, dynamic woman, very smart, very intuitive. We were at a party, and, I don't know, we were talking about something, and I made a comment being like, you know, sometimes I. I've heard I've been intimidating to people. And she goes, yeah, because you're constantly analyzing this. Them. And it was like. It was a. Teffy is a lot like me, where she. She. She's very bold, and she has strong opinions and she says them. And, like, in a lot of ways, I. I vibe with her in that regard. And she was right. I know. I mean, when I meet people, I'm. I'm very quiet. I'm a. I have that introverted side. I'm. I'm always anal. I'm an analytical person. I just. I analyze things, and people see it on my face and to a point where I. I haven't always been aware of that. And when I. You know, when you meet people, you can tell people are looking you up and down and kind of like, looking at your outfit. And I. I have a. Sometimes I wear that on my face. I wear that on my. And it can make people feel a certain way. I've had to learn over time. You know, it was like. I remember when Tuffy said it to me, I was like, damn. Call me out. Like, you know, like, damn. You know, this is all to say, like, that that might be playing a role in why your friend feels the way she does around you.
- [48:58]
Julie
Yeah. I mean, I would hope not. But the thing is, I think also the reason we were so close in the beginning is because we were there for each other so much in between all of our life happenings that, like, I honestly would never judge her. She would tell me, she's told me the craziest things, and I've helped her do the craziest things in the past, whatever. But I also do feel like we got to a point where she was complaining about so many things that were easily. Maybe not even easily, but, like, that were fixable because, you know, she was complaining about, you know, oh, I. I wish I was working again. It's like, okay, well, maybe try to find something that works for you. And eventually when these complaints just build up to all the things that have been over and over and over again, I was like, well, at some point you're gonna have to take control and, like, figure it out. Like, I don't know what else to tell you because you're complaining about the same things over and over again. I'm like, yeah, maybe you don't want to hear, but, like, maybe you should do some of those things.
- [49:44]
Host
And, like, is she really expecting you always to solve your problems, or is she just sometimes venting to you about the problems and then you take that as a green light to mentor her, to give her advice, to help solve her problems?
- [50:00]
Julie
I don't think so. I feel like it could be half and half. I feel like they'll probably, maybe, honestly, probably the last few months to a year, maybe it was more of it was maybe giving, like, mentorship a little bit. But, like, I feel like before that I would just be a listening ear and I feel like I would just hear her out because, like, I get it. Not everyone's going to have a perfect situation or not something that's going to be concrete. Like, I understand that and I'm trying to be empathetic, but I think that mixed in with, like, her complaints of whatever mixed in with her missing a lot of, like, big life events for me, like, pissed me off. And I was like, mixed with, like, the sad hurt, like, whatever. And I've expressed to her before, like, I. We had a dinner, like, right after her weird behavior started becoming weirder. And I was, like, sitting at the restaurant, this damn sushi restaurant, like, bawling, crying. I had craziest thing trying to explain to her how I felt, that I felt neglected and that she is, like, lying to me about certain things. And I found out later it was just, like, weird things. And she was there like, oh, my God, I'm So sorry, I don't want you to feel this way, but, like, you know, like, sorry. And I was, like, sitting there, like, wiping my tears, and nothing really changed. It was very bizarre. I can't decide if I'm like, how do I want it? Do I want to just have her in this point, like, in my life, like, more of an acquaintance, or do I try to, like, rebuild what we have? Because I feel like it's never going to be the same. Like, and I'm kind of aware of that, but also I'm like, why can't it be the same? Like, I know why, but, like, why?
- [51:23]
Host
You know, I had a similar conversation with someone the other day, but it's. It's really just about your. You have a certain set of expectations about this friendship. She is not meeting those expectations. And that is why you feel the way you do. That's what it comes down to. You know, it's like any. Any relationship, you have expectations. I used to say this in Allie when we were courting or whatever, but I was like, it's not really a relationship until we have expectations of each other. Because that was more at the. Yeah, we were just. At the. We were just with this very casual relationship, and we weren't. We were very open about dating other people, and there was really no expectations. And. And that allowed us early on to, like, not feel stressed out about things or whatever. But, yeah, relationships really start when there's expectations. Any relationship, romantic friendships, you know, when you. When you expect something of someone, it becomes more meaningful in a way. Otherwise, you're just like, I'm. I don't know, I'm indifferent. Like, they're a casual. Like, I don't know, they can come and go. I don't really expect anything from them. It's. It's interesting to me that you're just all in or all out. And I. I sense that that's. That's kind of you. That's your personality, man.
- [52:32]
Julie
I try not to be, but, like, for me, it's like, yeah, give me what you got. And if you don't got it, then. I don't know. Like, I feel like I just. I can't.
- [52:39]
Olivia
And.
- [52:39]
Host
And I think that's. That's more of a you, you thing than a her thing.
- [52:44]
Julie
Hate to see it. You're probably right. And the thing is, too, is I have a lot of other friends in my life that are very close to me and people I consider best friends as well. But what's interesting about this, and I've realized this about myself. But what's interesting is that I have lesser expectations of them than I do with her. That I feel. And I feel closer with them now, obviously, that her. Our friendship has been a little bit more distant, but I don't expect the same things from them that I do from her, because I think not only do we have so much history, but I feel like the type of history that we have, it feels. I don't want to say it's more valuable to me than my other friendships, but it feels, like, heavier, and it feels like I.
- [53:22]
Host
With being kind of by her side early in her transition, do you feel a sense of, I don't know, like, yeah, I was really there for you when other people weren't, Almost a little bit. And that back to expectations made you develop an expectation of, like, kind of. She owed you a little bit.
- [53:41]
Julie
I mean, like, potentially, I. My perspective on it is like, yes, I think it's that, but it also is, if you're saying, I mean, tidbit, she doesn't have any other friends. And I'm not saying that I have to be the end all, be all, but that's also her choice. But, you know, she's had potential, like coworkers and things in the past that she could build friendships, but she just hasn't. But what I'm saying is, I feel like if she is the one that was telling me, you've helped me so much. You are like, you know, like a sister to me, like, all these things. Wouldn't you, as that person, want to uphold a friendship to the level that you. I don't know that you're, like, talking it up to be like, I. I don't want to sound arrogant, but, like, it's just like, that's how I feel. And I think that it's like, so many, like, emotions mixed up in it that that's how I feel. It's like part of it is like, yes, I was there for you. I feel like you should be there for me, too. And the other part of it is like, shouldn't you want to be, like, if I was the person that helped you through a lot of things, even recently. That was like, eight years ago. But even recently, you know, I feel like there should be some sort of. On her, from her side, wanting to still maintain a level of closeness that we have always had that I don't think is being met. And I don't know why I can't let it go or, like, grow with the friendship or have it from a distance. Like, I Can't, Like I'm holding onto it like a damn Rottweiler. Like I can't let it go and I don't know why I can't let it go. And I just like, feel sad about it, but, like, above all, but just don't know how to I go about it.
- [55:08]
Host
This is all centered around your expectations of the situation from your point of view. And her point of view clearly is different, and I can only imagine how different it is. I don't know what it's like to be in her situation. I don't know what it's like to feel like I'm in the wrong body and what that might feel like and transitioning and, you know, obviously the world isn't as loving and as accepting from a lot of people as we'd like it to be and what that might feel like for her and et cetera, et cetera. Like, I imagine you felt good about yourself when you met this friend and she opened up to you and you were accepting of her and especially when we're surrounded by people who aren't, you know, a lot of bigotry and a lot of hatred. And I, I, it just the way you talk, I really think the, I think this is a lot about you and less about her. You have the right to feel how you feel, but I, again, you're only thinking about this from your lens and it doesn't make you wrong. But when it comes to a friendship, especially in her situation, I think a lot of empathy in her situation would, towards her situation go a long way. It doesn't mean you can't be disappointed and frustrated with just means. Again, if this person really is special to you. Your comment that she doesn't have a lot of friends, I hate that you said that. I hate that you think about that because there's a sense of like you're calling her out a little bit and again, like it's that you're judging her when you say that and you have opinions in terms of why she doesn't have friends. And then in that statement, it sounds to me like I've accepted you for all your flaws and I've put up with your bullshit and some of your lies and I'm still willing to be your friend. And, and yet you have, you treat our friendship so casually and you kind of owe me in a way. And I, and I think you've built up this resentment and frustration and these expectations that really have grown into this hurt that you feel. You know, you mentioned that you were crying and These are all valid, but it doesn't necessarily make you right.
- [57:22]
Olivia
Ugh.
- [57:23]
Host
Yeah.
- [57:24]
Julie
And I mean, the reason I said that, too, is because she would always pointed out. And she. I think there had been. There had been times in the last couple of years, too, where I had to attend, I don't know, events, random things for my other friends or work or, like, whatever. And she would only ask me to hang out if her boyfriend was not busy. And so she would have these, like, small pockets of time where she'd be like, oh, do you want to grab lunch? I can only be there for 45 minutes, but, like, can we go? And I'd be like, well, no, sorry. Like, I'm going to my friend's baby shower. Like, whatever. And she'd be like. Like, oh, well, that's what happens when you don't have any friends. Or, like, that's what happens when you're my only friend. And I'd be like, okay.
- [57:59]
Host
Like, that's frustrating. Yeah, that's frustrating.
- [58:01]
Julie
And it's like, I'm just like. And those moments. I know she wasn't saying it to, like, make me feel bad. She was just, like, saying she was out.
- [58:07]
Host
But, yeah, she was.
- [58:08]
Julie
Maybe she was. And. And those things. And I wouldn't say anything. I'd just be like, well, what the hell? Like, I have my own life also. And, like, I'm choosing to do these things. And by the way, there's been a lot of mutual parties and things and whatever that she's been invited to from all my other friends that know her and work and whatever, and she, like, chooses not to go. And if she is around my friends in certain settings, like, again, housewarming parties, like, whatever you want to call it, she ends up, like, it's weird. Like, she's ended up badmouthing a lot of my friends in front of their faces for no reason. If she has a couple drinks in her, she'll. She'll kind of just, like, project her insecurities out when she's around my other friends. And I'm not trying to say that, like, how dare you? But, like, it's weird behavior. And I think there's just a lot of little things that have built up that I'm like, we need to sit down and talk about these things. And I've tried, and she's so dismissive about it, and I want to bring it up in a way to tell her, like, I know you are trying to avoid this conversation, but this is a conversation that I feel like we need to have because we need to make a decision of, like, one, what our expectations are for our friendship. And two, like, it's okay if you don't. You have to. You don't have to be up my ass every two seconds. I understand that we both have a life, but. But I also want you to be the friend that I thought we would both be for each other for, you know, a really long time. And her, she's had a lot of questionable behavior in the past that I've really just let her. It's her own shit. I don't want to really, I don't want to be that person because I. I do love her to death. And like, I do see her as like, someone that's like a family member to me. And like, she's like, like my kin essentially. But I. I also want to tell her, like, like, a lot of the shit that you've done has been really disrespectful to me and the people around me. But also, like, why are you. Like, what can we do next? And like, what. How can we move forward? Or, like, do we not? Like, I don't know if she is just in a place where, like, I also hope she's okay. Like, I hope she's like, not going through something in her own relationship that she doesn't feel comfortable enough to tell me that I can, like, maybe help her with or even something that she is afraid to. I don't know, Like, I don't know what's going. I haven't talked to her, so it's like, I. I need to, like, like. And if we talked in the last few months, it was like, very close in passing and we live in the same city and, you know, there's lots to do and lots of things and we live so close together that, like, why, like, why aren't we seeing each other? And so I want to, like, have a potential in person conversation. I don't know, and be like, what are our options here? Are you okay? Number one. Number two, love you. But, like, three, I'm mad and sad. Like, what?
- [60:35]
Host
Well, I would focus more on being sad than mad.
- [60:38]
Julie
Got it. Because I am. I'm very sad. Like, I'm not even that mad, to be totally honest. I'm just like, hurt and sad.
- [60:44]
Host
Yeah, well, sad, sad, sadness is going to get you further than madness, I suppose, with her. You know, I mean, you have to really be frustrated. But this show ultimately is just centered around whether it's friendship problems. You know, it's just like, I think I'm Good at helping people control what they can control because there's so much in this world when it comes to relationships is outside of your control. I'm trying to help you frame your expectations so that you feel less sad and less disappointed because you can't dictate how your friend's gonna act.
- [61:15]
Julie
Yeah.
- [61:16]
Host
And I think the way, you know, you're talking, well, I wanna do this and I wanna do that, and I don't have the perfect answer for you, how you should go about this. I. But I do feel strongly that, like, you need to figure out what your expectations are and how you might be able to change your expectations. Because I don't think sitting your friend down and then dump on her and, and, and like, negotiating how you guys move forward and then being like, all right, well, if you're. If you can do this, this, this and that, we can be friends and I'm going to hold you to this and blah. It just might be just a lot. And again, from her point of view, she might not be. She probably isn't feeling what you're feeling, clearly. Put it this way, I think instead of doing that, I mean, step one, I think maybe sending her a text, it might say something like, I love you and I miss you, hope you're doing well, make it easier for her. You know, granted. And you. And simultaneously, you have to send that without expectations. You know, you have to send that because again, I get the sense that you're someone. If you were to do that, you already have a very specific expectation of how she should respond to that. And then as soon as she doesn't, you get activated, you get triggered. You get in your head and you snowball what that means in terms of why she didn't meet your expectations. And I think that's the part you. You need to try to work on and try to control.
- [62:35]
Julie
Yeah. And I. And I was, like, thinking about it too. And the last message that we sent, like, with each other in our text message read, like, was from me. And in my head I'm like, well, damn, I'm the last one that said something, so I don't want to.
- [62:47]
Host
That's all silly. You said a few minutes ago, this is. This person's like, family. She's like, Ken.
- [62:53]
Julie
Yeah.
- [62:53]
Host
You know, this call started with, like, should I just be done with this friendship? She's your. She's your family. She's your sister. And I. I have 10 siblings. I don't talk to them every day. They're some I like more than others. I love Them all, like sometimes they go months without engaging with them. They're still my blood, they're still my family. I would still drop anything if they really needed my help to help them. And I think if you really feel that way about her, that she really is family, you're gonna, you know, then that should change your calculus how you view this situation. And you should have a little bit of, bit more long term grace and know that in the middle it might be frustrating, disappointment and you might be very sad and you might miss her. But this idea of like being done with her because you can't handle your expectations, being disappointed, I think is a mistake by you.
- [63:39]
Julie
Yeah. And I, I, it's funny because I do grapple with that. I'm always like thinking to myself, like, why is it that I can't? Why do I have to put these types of expectations with her versus my other friends who I feel just as close with, maybe even closer now that our friendship is like, you know, a little bit more dissipated. But like, I need to like get over myself a little bit and just be like calm about it because I do like, obviously I miss her and I want her in my life, but I'm like, I need to like figure out how to like not be mad about it and I guess express my sadness to her in more of a casual way than being so harsh about it. Because I really don't want to be like a harsh and mean and like aggressive in my approach. I really don't want to be. But like, I have it so built up that I feel like if I do talk to her at this moment, it would be like very bad. It would be kind of aggressive. And I don't want to come off that way because I don't want to like scare her away and be like, damn, this is the reason why I don't talk to this. Like, I don't want her to think that, you know.
- [64:37]
Host
Yeah. So let me ask you this. In this friendship, over the course of the years, sounds like there have been periods where you've really been there for her. Has she ever been the friend? And I don't mean this is like a, in a good or a bad way, but just like what the dynamic your relationship. Has she ever really been the friend that you are going to for counsel? Like when you are confused, when you need help, or are there other people in your life that you go to? Because honestly, she's got so much going on, she's never really been the person you've counted on for that type of Stuff.
- [65:07]
Julie
I think in the beginning of our friendship, I did, like.
- [65:09]
Host
And I think the first, like, let's say the most. Past five years.
- [65:14]
Julie
Probably not, I don't think, because I don't think she responds to me the.
- [65:18]
Host
Way I would with, yeah, that's what I suspected. And I, I'm kind of glad to hear that. And I. And the reason I say that is because this is not like, oh, my God, she used to. I, I. She was my rock. She was my support system. This was the person I'd go to for problems, and now I don't have that person in my life. That's not your situation. You're not missing out on that. And I think that's. No, I think that's kind of telling, right? Because, like, you're not losing that. So what are you losing? You're losing this person that you were used to being their rock. You were used to being their support system. You were used to being the person they needed. And it feels like she doesn't need you as much anymore. And that probably hurts.
- [65:54]
Julie
I mean. Yeah. And she is someone, like, you know, when you have a friend, or I guess you could say this in a relationship too, like a, like a relationship soulmate, but a friendship soulmate, where, like, just everything clicks and you just have the most wonderful time hanging out. You have so much, like, everything, like, you don't even have to speak, speak to, like, talk to that person. Right? Like, that's the kind of connection we had. So it's like, that is also what I miss. Not to say that I can't get that. I mean, we have different friends for reasons that they all fill different cups, but she was, like, the one person that the entire cup was always full, right? So it's like, I do miss that connection.
- [66:27]
Host
What do you mean? The entire cup was always full.
- [66:29]
Julie
I feel like in. In our friendships, we, in life, we, I don't know, have different friends for different things. Not all the time, but I think that certain friends you would go to for maybe specific advice, you would go to a different one for something else. Like, I don't know, like, like little things. But I feel like she had every quality in a friend that I loved, and I feel like vice versa. So I, I just, like, miss our connection, really. Like, our. Just our friendship, literally. Like, I miss, like, the being around each other, having to. I mean, we, like, all the same things. Like, it's fun to, like, just be around someone that you love and you can relate to on literally every aspect, whether it's like, like, artistically or creatively or professionally, like, all those things. And it's like her and I were in the same field for such a long time that she gets what I go through, like, with my current job, which I love, by the way, but, like, little things that she only she could relate to that my other friends don't relate to. Like, things like that. So it's like, I miss it, you know? So it's like I want that as well. Like, it isn't always.
- [67:20]
Host
You missed the quality time. You missed the quality time.
- [67:22]
Julie
Yeah, that's my love language. Is quality time, like in. In. In this life with whoever it is, but I, I miss it. So it's like, I.
- [67:29]
Host
So there you go. I mean that. So if you were to communicate her anything other than sending that text, if you were to ever sit down and have a cup of coffee with this friend, that's all I would say to her. Listen, you know me. You know that quality time is my love language. And I miss our quality time. That's it. That's way more digestible to hear from someone, you know, as opposed to, you did this and you're not doing that and blah, blah, blah, and I'm angry and blah, blah, blah. It's just more like, I miss our quality time time. And I. I know you have a lot going on, and I know you want to be in this relationship, and. And she's investing a disproportionate amount of time in this relationship because she's and probably takes your friendship for granted because you've always been there. And again, like, you're just going to get a lot further this friendship if you really try to focus on empathy and putting yourself in her shoes. And it might require you to do more the heavy lifting in this relationship, and that might be the, the birth, the cross you bear. And if you truly love this person, it might be something you have to accept, not accept with like a. Like, you should not. You shouldn't feel proud of yourself for, in a way, you know? You know what I'm saying? Like, you don't. You don't accept, like, well, I'm the bigger person here. It's just like, this is the relationship. This is. This is the friend. This is how she entered into my life. And I love this person so much. It just is what it is, and I'm just gonna let that go and I'm gonna accept that, and I'm not gonna, like, pat myself on the back for it. It just is what it is. And if I want to maintain this friendship. Because not every friendship is perfect. I just have to accept that. And every once in a while, I might have to nudge her and remind her that I missed the quality time while simultaneously telling yourself that, like, we're not kids anymore. It's not. Our friendship is different. That was 10 years ago. I have my life, I have my relationship. We're all adults now. We have a lot of things going on. My best friends that I spent every waking moment with. We. We that text every once in a while. And I think, again, the best way to communicate with her is just, she knows you. And it's way more digestible to just say, I miss our quality time. And I just wish I could have a little bit more of that quality time with you. And then some of those other moments, if you can get back to the quality time. And the next time you experience her talking in a weird way about your friends after she has a few drinks, you could just say that. Just. Can you try to stop doing that? Like, I don't know why you do that. It's a little hurtful to me and my friends. And I would. Don't deal with that, like, adding. And by the way, you also do that, you know, like, it's just like, don't, don't. You know, it's pick your battles. But if you really, truly feel like this person is family, then treat them like family and get it out of your head that you're going to fire her as a friend. It's just different. There's a different stage in this friendship. She's only 36. You're only 31. You got a long life ahead of you both. And what matters more is you're both in each other's lives when you're 60 and. And you gotta. That's a lot of years. And there's gonna be ups and downs and. And family's family, you know?
- [70:29]
Julie
Yeah. And that's what I want to make it about. Because all other little things, like, clearly I've gotten over them. Not gotten over them fully, but, like, I've let them go because I'm still willing to obviously be her friend and I was her friend. I just want to make it about the love and the friendship that I have for her and come at it from that angle. And I'm hoping she's like, oh, my God, me too. And I'm like, great, happy family.
- [70:50]
Host
Yeah. But who knows what. Who knows what she will say? And I think that's the important part is you really have to, like, get you have to get out of your head. And these expectations that you have and you. As soon as you do something, you have immediate expectations, you have to try to let that go. And you just have to roll with the punches of this relationship and accept that you are going to be frustrated at times and hurt and sad at times and just let her come around.
- [71:17]
Julie
I needed to hear that because I feel like I was thinking to myself, I need to let it go a little bit while also just be accepting. But I just was like, no, I don't want to need to, because it doesn't make sense that I feel that way about her than I do about my other friends that I feel, like I said, are just as close, maybe even closer.
- [71:38]
Host
And then stop playing games with yourself. Well, I don't know. I haven't talked in a month and a half of what's going on. I don't even know if she's okay. Know, she's probably okay, you know?
- [71:46]
Julie
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [71:47]
Host
Right. And, like, it's stuff like that where you're kind of. You're just making. You're catastrophizing things that, you know, you probably don't need to catastrophize about things. And that just probably comes from your hurt and your frustration. It does. But, yeah, just try to. Try not to do that. I really think next step is to send her a text that says, I love you and I miss you and I. I'd love to get together sometime, put it out there. Just, you know, stop waiting on her. You know, the thing where, oh, I'm not going to do anything, and if she loves me, she'll reach out to. And if I'm really important to her, she'll do this. And it says if I. If she cares, you. You are in your head, like, making a list of all the things she needs to do to prove to you that you matter. And you got to stop doing that. You have to know in your heart, like, again, if she is like, your sister, I don't sit there and do that with my family members.
- [72:36]
Julie
Yeah.
- [72:36]
Host
You know, it's just like, you'll always be my sister. I mean, whether I like it or not or my brother. And I don't want to talk to you right. Right now. And I'm really mad and I'm hurt, but it's. It's.
- [72:48]
Julie
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. I'm, like, nervous that. What? Like, I don't know why. I'm like, I'm gonna send this text message and I'm gonna, like, I don't know what I'm expecting.
- [72:58]
Host
Like, you're nervous because you're. You know, deep down you're gonna have expectations and that she's not gonna meet them.
- [73:04]
Julie
Yeah. I mean, yeah. That is just the reality of that. But that's okay, I guess.
- [73:10]
Host
Yeah. I mean, I imagine if you send a text that says, I miss you and I love you, and she doesn't respond to that, that. Or say something as simply as, I miss and love you, too, that would be very hurtful.
- [73:17]
Julie
Yeah, my little heart would be broken, but it's okay.
- [73:19]
Host
Do you really think that she wouldn't.
- [73:21]
Julie
I don't know. I really don't know. I feel like it's changed so much, especially in the last, like, six months to a year, that I don't know that she even said she potentially was moving away from the city that we live in with her boyfriend, potentially. And, like, she didn't give me more details on that.
- [73:38]
Host
How did you respond to that?
- [73:39]
Julie
I said, oh, my gosh. Like. Like, I would never see you. Like, that's so sad. Like, I feel like I barely see you now, but then I wouldn't see you at all. And all she said was, yeah, I'm gonna really miss the city we're in. I love the city. I would be sad to leave it. I was like, okay, what about me, though? That's crazy. Like, hello, I'm right here. So, like, that sucked. And that was, like, the last time we talked. So I was a little bit pressed about that response. Not gonna lie. But try not to take it personal. But. But it definitely was a little personal. So I hear you.
- [74:09]
Host
I hear you. I mean, like, I hear you.
- [74:11]
Julie
I was like, oh, what if I sent this text? And she was like, by the way, I've moved to Slovenia and I'm not coming back. And I'm gonna be like, okay, well, that's sad. But I could still have a relationship with Slovenia if I wanted to, I guess. But is.
- [74:23]
Host
She might move to Slovenia or you do just randomly?
- [74:26]
Julie
No, I'm. She wants to move to something up. Up the coast, like, an hour and.
- [74:30]
Host
A half away, you know, just not. I'm nitpicking here, but, like, next time, again, it's just all about how we deliver things. You didn't like her response? She probably didn't like yours, which is kind of like, I'll never see you again. You made it about you. She made it about her. She probably wanted to hear, oh, that's exciting. Like, I'm really happy for you. And like, she. You know, maybe she wanted your support and she didn't feel like she had it, you know?
- [74:53]
Julie
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe she did, and I read it wrong because the first thing I thought was like, oh, my gosh, that's crazy. Like, wow, you're moving. Like, I didn't think because it didn't come in, like, a positive light. So I didn't respond that way either, because she was like, oh, like, rent's so expensive, and we can't, like, afford it here, so we need to leave. It was kind of like that. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, whoa, that's crazy. That sucks. I'm not gonna see. Like, I responded that way because maybe she interpreted it in a negative way because I didn't mean it that way, but that's just, you know, how I responded. And it.
- [75:21]
Host
It definitely feels like you've obviously built up this resentment and animosity and feelings. She maybe feels like she can't do anything right with you, or you're always disappointing. She's always disappointing you.
- [75:31]
Julie
Yeah, it could be that. I mean, she is so sure when.
- [75:35]
Host
She feels that, and she doesn't know how to handle it, and she does. You know, she just.
- [75:38]
Julie
Yeah.
- [75:39]
Host
Which you guys have to get back to those days where it's just fun again. But right now, you go into these situations with so much frustration and expectations of her, and then she never meets them. And.
- [75:51]
Julie
And I'm pissed.
- [75:52]
Host
You're pissed. And it's like, a weird vibe.
- [75:54]
Julie
And she's like, okay, yeah, she's probably over the vibe. I mean, she's always said she's, like, very big on, like, people's energies. And, I mean, I agree with her. I'm the same way. But, I mean, I might be just overbearing in certain ways. I mean, I guess she's going through a lot, so I could be a little bit more empathetic with her. And maybe I don't even know the extent of the things that she might even be going through at this very moment.
- [76:14]
Host
So text her. I miss you. I love you. Would love to see you. Can we get together soon? Keep it real simple. And then when you do get together, try to just have fun with her. Try not to maybe even have a conversation. And maybe you could throw in, I miss our quality time. But when you say that. When you say that, you also have to say, but I also. I. I know you're happy with your boyfri. And. And try to be happy for her, even if it's not getting what you Want.
- [76:41]
Julie
Yeah, Because I don't be doing that, like, ever. I'm never. I. I don't say that, to be honest. Like, I'm not like, oh, my gosh, Hope you're. Well, she.
- [76:48]
Host
She must feel that.
- [76:49]
Julie
I mean, he. I don't know that.
- [76:53]
Host
That's pretty common. People get into serious. Whether the relationship's right or not. They dive into relationships. They get, you know, they get caught up in it. They invest other time, and if they feel like they're. They don't have the support of their friends, they distance themselves from their friends. It's just. It's. Yeah, she also stopped.
- [77:11]
Julie
She, like, cut us off pretty cold. Like, cold turkey. As far as, like, wanting to hang out with him all the time and do a double date situation all the time. Very quickly. Because she did tell me, like, a little tidbit, things about him. Like, oh, he said this or wanted me to do this or suggested this. And I'd be like, wait, what? He said what? Like, I was very, like. Because some of them were, like, very, like, I want to say red flag things. Because it wasn't. It was like, giving pink flag a little bit, and I'd be like, oh, that's weird. And I started, like, reacting to it. So I think she tried to, like, completely remove that part of her life when it came to me. Like, separate them maybe a little bit. Because I'm not very, like, oh, he's great. Happy for you guys. Like, I don't know, because he's like, a little bit of a freak from what I can tell. I don't. I don't know. That's dramatic.
- [77:49]
Host
But I think you gotta try to be happy for her and get out of her business a little bit and stop trying to be her mentor or her parent or her. Yeah, there's a little bit of that. Get back to being friends.
- [78:00]
Julie
You're so right. You're right, you're right. I should.
- [78:04]
Host
You know, I hate to say this, but do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? You know?
- [78:07]
Julie
Oh, my God. You know what? I need to buy the sweatshirt so I can remind myself every day.
- [78:13]
Host
There you go. There you go. Dot com. I hope. Was this helpful? I don't know. I don't.
- [78:20]
Julie
Yeah, it was. It was, it was, it was. I appreciate the talking through it because I haven't had someone, like, say that to me out loud. I mean, obviously I've told my boyfriend about it, and he's like, she's whack. Let her go. And I'm like, well, I don't want to, so it's. I needed to hear it a little bit from someone, so I appreciate it.
- [78:36]
Host
Yeah. If it's really important, you'll make it work. And it clearly is important to you. You just have to change your expectations and. Yeah. Think about the rest of your life, not the next six months.
- [78:46]
Julie
You're right. And I will. And I'll probably hopefully send that text today if I. I can get over myself and the fear of it.
- [78:53]
Host
It'll be okay. It'll be okay. I do think you need to get over yourself a little bit.
- [78:59]
Julie
Totally.
- [78:59]
Host
I think you're very used to being right, and I think you're probably right often. And, you know, you are. And I think as someone who can relate to that feeling, you have to humble yourself a little bit and be okay to just be happy rather than being right and just be thankful that this person's in your life, even if it's different. And you have to get better at being happy for her without judging you. Her. And I think you do that. Wait, I think you judge. You make her feel judged, probably.
- [79:26]
Julie
I'm open to being humbled. Like, I need it a little bit. Like, I'm definitely open to it, and hopefully this will catapult me into that, so.
- [79:33]
Host
Well, keep us posted.
- [79:35]
Julie
Okay. I definitely will. I'm scared, but I will.
- [79:38]
Host
All right. It'll be okay. Just lead with love. I know it's vulnerable. I know it's scary, but it's the best way forward.
- [79:44]
Julie
Yeah, you're so right. Okay, well, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Love the pod.
- [79:48]
Host
All right. I appreciate you. You. Thanks for listening. Thanks for calling in. All right, keep us posted.
- [79:53]
Julie
All right, I will.
- [79:54]
Host
Take care.
- [79:54]
Julie
Thanks. Bye. Bye.
- [79:56]
Host
Our favorite part of the holidays is spending time with our family. From baking cookies, decorating the house, and walking around the neighborhood, everyone seems to be in the holiday spirit. And there's nothing that gets us in the spirit more than a Starbucks holiday beverage.
- [80:07]
Natalie
Now that we have River, I'm really trying to create memories and traditions that she will carry on throughout her life, and something that I'm really loving doing. We did it last year, and obviously we're gonna do it again this year, but it's going to Starbucks, getting a holiday drink, and then driving through the neighborhoods and, like, looking at all the Christmas lights on all the houses and seeing all the houses decorated and, like, the blowups in everyone's front yard and, like, sipping on our warm, hot.
- [80:32]
Host
I look forward to that holiday drink also. Back in my sales Days when I worked from home, I'd always go to a Starbucks and work. Cause I wanted to get out of the house. And definitely during the holiday season, I get my peppermint mocha and you just kind of see people coming in like different you. You kind of feel the holiday energy with people coming in. During Christma, it was always just really enjoyable. I really had to get out of the house when I was stuck at home working.
- [80:53]
Natalie
Well, the peppermint mocha is a Starbucks signature espresso. Combined with steamed milk mocha sauce and peppermint flavored syrup is topped with whipped cream and dark chocolate curls. What more could you ask for?
- [81:04]
Host
Delicious.
- [81:05]
Julie
Yum.
- [81:05]
Host
It's honestly how I learned to drink coffee. This was my first Starbucks coffee.
- [81:08]
Olivia
Peppermint mocha.
- [81:09]
Julie
Yeah, we used to, when I worked.
- [81:10]
Jess
There, we would put ristretto shots in.
- [81:13]
Julie
It and we would like mod it a bit.
- [81:15]
Host
Well, it was a white chocolate mocha. And then during the holiday season, I transferred it over the peppermint. There's no better feeling than when the cups turn red at Starbucks.
- [81:24]
Natalie
I know. That is so true. Another favorite of mine is the caramel brulee latte. That one is so good.
- [81:30]
Jess
Yeah, that's my favorite.
- [81:31]
Natalie
The caramel brulee is Starbucks signature espresso. It's topped with whipped cream and caramel brulee topping. Rediscover the little moments of joy that make the holidays brighter at Starbucks. Step into the warmth of the season with a visit to Starbucks where every sip makes the holidays feel a little bit more special.
- [81:46]
Julie
Special.
- [81:46]
Host
Well, don't forget, together is the best place to be. Connect over your holiday favorites at Starbucks. How's it going?
- [81:53]
Jess
Good. How are you? Good.
- [81:55]
Host
What's your name?
- [81:55]
Jess
My name is Jess. I'm 34 and I'm wondering if I should break up with my boyfriend if he's never thought about having kids until me.
- [82:03]
Host
Okay. Is that it? Oh, wait. So how long you been with your boyfriend?
- [82:07]
Jess
Okay. Yeah, I can give you a lot more context to all of this. We have been together for three months. It's been long distance since the beginning. He doesn't live in the same state as me. He lives in Oklahoma. I live in San Diego. So not close, but not terrible. I know you've done long distance, so you kind of relate. And so he still has family and friends that live where I live. So he visits often and we met through mutual friends. His best friend and my best friend are getting married. So we went and hung out one day, hit it off and he really Liked me and he. Like, we were vibing, and my friend kind of was like. She pulled me to the side and was like, he's a great guy. I really like him. I don't know if he wants the same things that you want for your future, but, you know, keep hanging out with him and. And ask those questions. And I'm like, okay, cool. Totally get it. Thanks for the heads up. She then went to him, too, and was like, hey, she wants a family. She wants to settle down. Don't waste her time. And he's like, no, I think it's great. I think, well, she knows what she wants. I really like her. Like, I like the vibes. So we went on a first date. We went really well. Really liked him. Good conversations, good energy. It went great. He went back home. We continued to get to know each other via phone, via FaceTime. It really seemed like he was making an effort to get to know me long distance, which is nice. I've never done long distance.
- [83:32]
Julie
He has.
- [83:33]
Jess
His last relationship was six years long distance. So it did feel like he kind of knew how to navigate how to do this more than me. So I was kind of leaning on him for that. He then, like, a couple weeks after we were talking, he invited me. He had an extra ticket to a festival, and he invited me to come. It was a quick flight to San Francisco for me, and he made it really comfortable, like, because we didn't really know each other that well yet, but he made it comfortable enough where he's like, like, have a big Airbnb. I can sleep on the couch. There's no pressure. I just want to get to know you. And I'm like, cool, that sounds fun. Let's do it. Did it. The weekend was a blast. Had a great time. Then a couple weeks after that, he had to go back to San Francisco for a wedding. And he was like, maybe I can change my flight and fly to San Diego and we can spend a little bit more time together. Spend a couple days, and then I'll go home. I'm like, cool. That feels good. Still getting to see you, like, every couple weeks.
- [84:24]
Julie
Weeks.
- [84:24]
Jess
Then we make a plan, and we're, like, talking every night, three hours a night or more. Just about anything, everything, whatever. We talked a lot about his ex, too, which I should mention. He broke up with her, like, four months before he met me. But I guess it was rocky for a year before that. But he was just venting. I guess it was, like, not a great breakup on his end. So he was like, you know, Venting to me about like some stuff. Which is, which is fine. I'll give him the grace to like, you can vent to me like it's your last relationship. So then we flew to Dallas and. Or made a plan to fly to Dallas together. It's a, it's a three hour drive for him, three hour flight for me. So it was a good like halfway point and we spent the weekend together. That went well. Everything's great. So we're like seeing each other every three, three weeks at this point, which feels good. Then Halloween comes around. He has another extra ticket to a show. He's a big music guy, has an extra ticket to a show, invites me to come. I go. It's a lot of fun. And then the conversation of kids comes up on the phone one night. We're talking about, we're, we're talking about like silly trends that kids are doing now. I was actually, we're talking about six, seven, and I was explaining to him what it meant from actually your guys's podcast because you guys explained it to me. And he was like, that's ridiculous. Like, what a ridiculous trend. This is why I'm never having kids.
- [85:44]
Host
And I was like, because kids are silly. Yeah.
- [85:48]
Jess
I was like, well, hold on. I was like, you definitely know my stance on kids. It's a huge non negotiable for me. And that's a problem if you're saying those words like never having kids. Like, I was like dead stopped in my track. Like, I was like, this is a problem. And he was like, no, no, I was kidding. It's not really what I meant, but, but to be honest, yeah, I have reservations about having kids. And I know where you stand on it. So I am now starting to think about if I want kids because of you. His last relationship, she already had kids she didn't want anymore. So he kind of was like, on board with not having kids. So I was like, okay, that's cool. If you still need time to think about it, obviously this is still new in our relationship, but if it's a no, I'm never having kids. I gotta go. Like, I can't, it's. I can't waste my time. And I'm not gonna change your mind. I don't wanna change your mind. It's something that I want you to decide for, so let me know if it's a hard no. And he's like, okay, no problem. Like, I just need more time. And you know, we can sit down and, and I can show you my list of why Kids make me nervous. And I said, okay. So then we planned and. And then we kind of put a pin in that conversation and then moved forward and we had other good conversations on the phone. And then we planned to have Thanksgiving together. So he flew out for a week before Thanksgiving. We spent time together. We went to my family's for Thanksgiving. It was great. I definitely weighed heavy in my mind the kids conversation, because I just didn't know if he was ever going to get on board with it. And that made me a little nervous to continue. I also brought up, like, hey, like, what's our plan for, like, the following year? Like, do we want to do New Year's together? And he's like, oh, well, you know, I kind of envisioned, like, yeah, like, we can do New Year's together, but I kind of envisioned going to Columbia by the end of the year to scuba dive. And he's like, you can come with if you want. And like, that. I was like, yeah, so, like, don't.
- [87:55]
Host
Love that saying, I don't need you there, but you're welcome to accompany me.
- [88:01]
Jess
Exactly. And that's kind of like looking back on all of these trips. They were kind of his trips, and it was like, come if you. You want. And like, obviously, like, they were already planned. So it's like, not like we could.
- [88:14]
Host
How did you respond to that?
- [88:15]
Jess
I just was like, okay, like, of course. Who's going to say no to going to Columbia? Like, if. If I can make it work, yeah, I'll. I'll go there. But, like, what are the flights? Like, what are the logistics? So he's like, okay, yeah, like, let's. Let's look up flights. Because he wasn't offering to buy me a flight. So we were looking at flights, and they were very pricey. They were like $2,000. And I'm like, I don't have that kind of budget. So then we're not doing New Year's together. And like, that doesn't feel good for me. And like, what's our. Like, what's our plan here? And I brought this to his attention. I'm like, look, we're in a relationship. I would want your boyfriend. Girlfriend, kind of.
- [88:54]
Host
What does kind of mean?
- [88:57]
Jess
I told him that it's a big deal for me because I haven't been in a relationship in eight years. I want to be asked. He said, okay, got it. No problem. Problem. Never asked me then just started casually saying, throwing around, like, to. When he was talking about me saying girlfriend. And I was like, but you never asked me Like, I asked you to. So you're just going around telling people that.
- [89:17]
Host
What do you say?
- [89:18]
Jess
I'm your girlfriend.
- [89:19]
Host
Did you confront him with that?
- [89:21]
Jess
Well, no, not really. The conversations was more like, hey, like, I need to know, like, if we're official. And he's like, well, I'm not seeing anyone else. Like, obviously, if we're going to Thanksgiving together, like, it's official. I'm like, like, okay, I don't know. I never openly said he was my boyfriend. Never got to that.
- [89:41]
Host
How old is he again?
- [89:42]
Jess
He's 34. So I should mention after Thanksgiving, the following night, we ended up having a huge blowout fight over the New Year's plan of him still saying he's going without me, that he really wants to do it, and I don't see a way I can do it. And then there's, like, no compromise to be made. I'm like, we can go somewhere for the weekend. Like, I can't take two weeks off, but maybe we can go to New York. Maybe we can go, you know, somewhere else together that's not out of the country. And he's like, well, I have the time off. Like, what am I supposed to do? Like. Like, what am I supposed to do the rest of the time? And I'm like, hang out with me for a couple days.
- [90:19]
Julie
Like, why?
- [90:20]
Jess
And so then I was like, okay, then go be. Go spend New Year's by yourself and I'll go, like, start dating someone else. Because if you don't want to be with me and we're not going to do the holiday together, then I want to move on with someone else. Because I'm looking to build a family with someone and build a relationship and be with them for the holidays. And then the kids thing got thrown into it, and it basically felt like he was saying, I don't have a timeline for kids. I don't know if I'm going to get on board with kids. My timeline is like, maybe one day, ten years from now. Ish.
- [90:53]
Host
He said this.
- [90:55]
Jess
He didn't. I'm paraphrasing. He didn't say 10 years, but it definitely felt like, like, he does have 10 more years before he can have kids or think about having kids. He also said financially, it makes him very nervous to have kids because he doesn't want to not be able to provide for a family. And right now, he's already financed himself out. He budgeted himself out to retire in a couple years, keep traveling, not be a slave to work to retire in a couple years. Yeah. And he's like, and now if I have to factor in a family, that changes my entire plan. And now I have to be a slave to work, and I'm trying to get on board with it, okay? And he's like, and my job is kind of up in the air if it's gonna make money or not and how it's gonna do the following years. He also said, I don't really know how I'm supposed to. We're ever gonna be able to live in the same place together because my work's moving east, and I don't know if I. Or he said, like, I can't work fully remotely. So I would either have to. To fly here and work during the week and only be in San Diego on the weekends, or be here, you know, once a month or whatever. I'm like, okay, so then why don't I come to Oklahoma, check it out, see if I can see myself living there. If, like, that's what we're, like, eventually going to get to in a couple years and check it out. And he's like, well, I. Oklahoma is the worst. Like, I would never wish that upon anyone. Like, you don't want to come here. You would hate it. I'm like, like, well, then this seems like you're putting a lot of roadblocks. What I'm trying to, like, make this work.
- [92:27]
Host
What do you say?
- [92:28]
Jess
Then he's like, well, I just don't want you to, like, regret it. And, you know, it would make sense if I have kids to, like, be closer to my mom and be back home. And I'm like, okay, so then, now are we living in San Diego or now are we not going to open? I'm like, this.
- [92:43]
Julie
What?
- [92:43]
Host
So, okay, you've only been dating this guy for four months.
- [92:47]
Jess
I know, I know, I know.
- [92:49]
Host
And I think you have a lot of valid concerns. Yeah, I don't think the holidays and making sure you spend all the holidays together this year is that big of a deal. And I feel like you're making the holidays, like, this very important benchmark to really prove if this guy wants to. To have more of the quiet life and the family life, and you're, you know, this fear of him not wanting to actually have kids. You've decided that the holidays really matter. You know, everyone, you know, I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to spend New Year's Eve with him. When Natalie and I first started dating again.
- [93:31]
Julie
It's not.
- [93:32]
Host
Fuck. Fuck us. I mean, who knows? I mean, we're Just one person. I'm not saying we set the standard. You know, Natalie and I were dating for nine months off and on. We weren't boyfriend and girlfriend. We became boyfriend and girlfriend in July. She moved out in officially, like, in November, December, like, right after Thanksgiving. But, you know, it was also Covid. So that was weird to see that. But, like, she always spends Thanksgiving with her family, and I wanted to be with my family. We put it this way. We were boyfriend and girlfriend. We were together, we lived together. And we. And our first holiday season together. She went to her family, I went to mine. It was like. Like we were even living together, you know, but it was still like, yeah, this is a new relationship. Maybe it's like, we don't need to be, like, trading off, like, you know, her family lived a different part of the country, and then my family lived. So it was like, we're a couple months in. This is silly to, like, expect either of us to not spend the holidays with our families to prove to us that, like, you know, that we're. Now that we're dating, we have to be together. It was this more like, I don't know. We just started. It wasn't like we just started dating. Our relationship isn't. We lived together. You know, it was. We were committed to making it work. But it was also like, well, listen, next year, you know, let's do that. But this year, let's. Let's not make either of us sad that we're not with our families.
- [94:57]
Jess
Right.
- [94:57]
Host
You know, even though we would have. I would have loved to have been with her for Thanksgiving and Christmas and New Year's, I didn't spend either of those holidays with her. Her.
- [95:05]
Julie
Okay.
- [95:05]
Host
And it would have been nice.
- [95:07]
Jess
Yeah.
- [95:07]
Host
You know, and I missed her and she missed me.
- [95:10]
Jess
Yeah.
- [95:11]
Host
But it was important for her to be with her family, and it was important for me to be with my family. So I. I don't think him go. I don't think being with him on New Year's is the end all be all.
- [95:21]
Jess
Okay.
- [95:21]
Host
And if he has. And if he has this trip he's had planned, he should be able to go do that trip, you know?
- [95:27]
Jess
Well, it's not really planned. It's like he just had it in his mind.
- [95:30]
Host
Well, he wants to do it, and he had it budgeted. Whatever. I mean, it's kind of planned. I. It's. It on itself.
- [95:35]
Jess
But then it's not just this trick.
- [95:37]
Host
No, I know. I get it. But by it. I'm just saying by itself, it's not that your thing is. You're just like, what does it all mean for us? And I get it, like, now I want to have kids. I want to have kids. We didn't have this big kind of like, I don't know. I'm living with this person who, like, doesn't like this big thing that I definitely know I want, she doesn't want or vice versa. We didn't have that. That you're dealing with. So I understand why it's injured your head.
- [95:59]
Jess
Yeah.
- [95:59]
Host
And again, he is giving you a lot of red flags for you to validly be concerned. This. The fact that he wants to, like, he's only 34 and he has or. Or has a plan to retire intent in a couple years and then travel the world. He sounds like a no man who wants to just kind of selfishly live life for himself, and he is entitled to do that, and that's what he wants for himself, and that's what makes him happy. He should go do that. But yeah, that doesn't sound like a person who really wants to. Like, Like, I don't look at it like, I mean, listen, I'm very fortunate. I. To do what I do, and I love what I do and I, you know, but it is work, you know, like, I would. I'm. We're at the lake right now, and I. I love that we're talking and I enjoy doing this, but, like, all things being equal, I'd love to be downstairs, like, building a snowman with my daughter and, you know, whatever, and just having fun and I have to work. But I don't think of it as I'm a slave to my job. I feel fortunate that I get to take care of my family, and I love doing it. If having a kid is going to, like, make him feel like he's a slave.
- [96:56]
Jess
Right.
- [96:56]
Host
That's not a great sign. You know, maybe he just said that, but I would say that, like, you're probably. For a guy who's open to the possibility of having kids, you are probably coming a little hot and heavy, a little strong, a little too much, a little, you know, you're. You're.
- [97:16]
Jess
If I'm him, something I tend to do.
- [97:18]
Host
Yeah. If I'm him, regardless of your valid concerns and the valid red flag, I would be like, you know, like, if Natalie demanded that I come to her for Thanksgiving, even though we live together, I would have felt the kind of. I would have been like, what? Why? Why? Why does it have to happen? You know, like, what we, you know, we're if this works out, we're gonna spend the rest. I think that was literally a conversation that we had, which is like, listen, I'm really happy we both talked about it. Wasn't like, a point of contention, but we had a conversation which was like, listen, like, assuming this works out, and we're. We're in it for it to work out, we have so many more holidays to spend with each other, so let's just be with each other's families. And it was literally the last Thanksgiving I ever spent with my family because I've spent the past five Thanksgiving with Natalie's family and happy to do that, you know, and she spent. And she hasn't been with her family for Christmas because she's been with my family for Christmas, and that's just how we've done it, you know, and that was. So we're thankful that we separated that way, you know, and, like, just kind of demanding that you guys play house. Four months into relationship is no doubt. Feels like a lot for a guy who. Who kind of envisioned this no man, laugh. Life for him.
- [98:36]
Jess
Right?
- [98:36]
Host
So. And then, like, well, let me. You know. And to be honest, it sounds a bit. Bit ridiculous that you were. Well, let me come out to Oklahoma to try it out to see if I can move there in a couple years. Like, huh. Like, it's a little. What are you gonna.
- [98:50]
Jess
I just don't want to waste my time.
- [98:52]
Host
I get it. But, like, I mean, listen, it's a. It's a balance, right? Like, yeah, dating is hard.
- [98:57]
Jess
I will say we did end up breaking up.
- [99:00]
Host
Oh, you. You broke up? Oh, yeah.
- [99:03]
Jess
Yeah.
- [99:03]
Host
Okay. When was the last time you spoke?
- [99:07]
Jess
Well, we spoke last night on the phone, but we broke up before I got a chance to go to his family's for Thanksgiving. He came to mine. We had a huge blowout fright. Who broke up with Friday? We. We kind of both, like, after the fight, he kind of was just like, I can't give you all the answers you want right now, and I don't want to waste your time. And I just think that this is going to be an uphill battle, and long distance is hard, and I don't know if I want kids in the same timeframe you do. And I think, like, we should just, like, this isn't gonna work.
- [99:42]
Host
Okay.
- [99:43]
Jess
So it was kind of like we both mutually agreed, and I will say so. We have our friend mutual friend's wedding to go to, and we were trying to get to, like, we had planned to go to that together, and he. He did Buy the room. And it's a pretty expensive room and they only like, have like one bedroom boutique hotel situation out of the country. And he's still like, we ended fine enough where he's like, you're still welcome to like, stay in the room with me. I got it, like, for us. So you're welcome to like, stay in the room with me for the wedding. And I told him, like, that's a good idea. It's in March.
- [100:18]
Host
It's a long time. Longer than you've actually dated.
- [100:22]
Jess
Yeah.
- [100:22]
Host
Do you think you can do it?
- [100:25]
Julie
I.
- [100:27]
Jess
Sure, I can suck it up. And like, he like, I. I like him as a person.
- [100:31]
Host
How broken up are you about the breakup? Doesn't sound like too broken up.
- [100:36]
Jess
I'm like, torn because I wanted to make it work, but long, long distance was like, really hard. And then I had like a couple friends, like in my ear telling me, like, what are you doing? You're with somebody who is kind of like going against your non negotiables about wanting to have kids. And he, like, is on the fence about having kids. So it's like there was a lot of like, like people and like my best friend, who's also friends with him, telling me he doesn't want what you want for the future. So it was a lot.
- [101:01]
Host
It doesn't seem like your guy. And clearly, you know, that you're not. You're not torn up about it, you know, and, and, and I'm happy to hear that. And that should tell you something. I, I think if I like to. How to handle this going forward, I, I would take advantage of the fact that you're not torn up about it. And I think you realize deep down it's probably the right thing. Maybe just in the short run, I'd maybe just reach out and just say like something to the effect of, I don't know, it might. It might go a long way. There's not, there's no, you don't need to do this because I don't think it really makes. It's like, not gonna change the outcome. And. But for your own peace of mind, maybe just like kind of owning your part of this, which is to say, like, yeah, I know things that work out. And like, as far as the wedding goes, the alternative is what? Getting your own room?
- [101:48]
Jess
Yeah. And that's. It's insane.
- [101:51]
Host
Yeah. So honestly, just have the mindset of like, this isn't my guy. You know, I like him, he's fun. I have a good time with him. We enjoy the experience. But he does not what I want. And listen, long distance is the least of your concerns. And not wanting to have kids is also not your only concern. He wants to travel the world and retire. He doesn't remotely want what you want. It's not even like on the same planet. So he's a really nice guy. He was a good time. And just say, listen, for my part, I know I probably got a little caught up in things and I probably caused some fights that we didn't need to have. I'm glad we were able to figure out sooner than later that maybe we weren't right for each other. But I really, like, I am sorry that I probably put a little bit too much pressure on us a little too soon. Either way, I know we're probably not right for each other, but, like, I'm sorry I got a little carried away. I just was kind of excited about us and I was excited about the potential, but. But I think we came to the right decision. And I really, you know, like, thanks for just being up front and just that way you're just kind of chill and casual. It'll be in the best possible way. Like, you'll probably surprise him because right now he thinks of you as like this, like, wow, God, a little crazy, a little too intense, a little too much, a little too fast. And I think you just acknowledging that almost might make him confused in the best possible way. You don't. I think you really need to accept that he's not your guy.
- [103:08]
Jess
Okay.
- [103:09]
Host
Because if he does, like, question his decision, like, if you're all of a sudden, like, kind of chill, all of a sudden, it might make him go, oh, you know, now that you're chill, like, let's give it a shot. I don't know.
- [103:19]
Jess
I feel like he might, because it's like he is kind of showing that he's like, still, like, he's liking my stories and.
- [103:25]
Host
Yeah, he likes you.
- [103:27]
Jess
Yeah.
- [103:27]
Host
Listen, you have to be to your friend's point. You have to, you know, your non negotiables, which you do in and make.
- [103:35]
Jess
Sure you guys really say that, like, they want to have kids. Because, like, I haven't met a guy that says that.
- [103:40]
Host
Well, when you first started the call, before I realized you guys were broken up and you gave me the details, you know, you know, my first thought was, listen, like, for a lot of people who are like, indifferent or not sure if they want to have kids, when you meet the right person, it completely changes things. Well, I didn't want to have kids until I met You. And now I'm like, I see a family with you. You demanded an immediate IT switch up. And I get it because you're like, well, I don't want to waste my time, but listen, you can meet a guy who says he wants to have a bunch of kids, date like them, have a great relationship in a year, even though he still wants to have kids, and you want a lot of the same things. Realize you guys aren't compatible because, like, you, you can't be in the same room. And then you'll date and feel like all the relationships we have that don't work out can feel like a waste of time. You have to, like, tell yourself that you learned, you know, you have to try to learn something from that experience and then move forward to that end. You would just have to know that whoever you date early on is a risk and there's no guarantees that it's going to work out. So, like, demanding answers in the first couple months when what you should be doing is just getting to know each other and finding common ground and think, you know, you just demanded all these. This guy drastically changed his lifestyle and that was just, was never possible. Now again, I think you probably in a good way got to the answer you needed to get because this guy is, again, it's not just about him not wanting to have kids. It's about, like, this, a lifestyle he wants to maintain. And he, right, he has it really planned out in a way. You know, for a guy who doesn't seem like much of a planner, what he does have planned is his independence.
- [105:17]
Jess
Right. You know, and, and that's what I kind of noticed. It's like, it was a lot of like, I statements instead of like, we statements.
- [105:24]
Host
And I'm like, so, yeah, I honestly would probably, if, if you're still talking, I would mix it up and be like, hey, you know, we probably made the right decision. And again, I, I think I came on a little too strong. And I think I just got caught up in being scared about, like, investing in someone who I know didn't want the same things as me. And so I'm sorry I, I, I did that. But like, listen, you're, we're cool. It's fine. I obvious still like you. You're, you know, we just want the different things and let's just plan on going to this wedding together. Have a good time. I. He doesn't want what you want.
- [105:59]
Jess
Right?
- [105:59]
Host
He's not your guy and you can enjoy his company and like him, but, like, know that, like, this isn't the person I should be falling in love with or pining over or missing or crying over because, like, he doesn't remotely want what you want.
- [106:13]
Jess
Right, Right.
- [106:14]
Host
And, and everyone, all your mutual friends know this, so see him as that, you know.
- [106:20]
Jess
So then how do I take like the emotion out of it when we spend the weekend together at the wedding? Like, how do I keep it?
- [106:29]
Host
Well, you don't. I mean, have fun, go dance, make out, have sex. I don't know. I mean, like, I'm, you know, all at your comfort level. But like, he is, he is a good time. He's not your guy. You know, the thing that's gonna want.
- [106:41]
Jess
To like, tell the universe I'm still looking for a good time. Like, to me, I'm like, I'm too old for like these like casual things.
- [106:47]
Host
How old are you?
- [106:48]
Jess
I'm 34.
- [106:49]
Host
You're not too old to have fun. And then while you're. Listen, if you between now and then meet another guy, that's going to completely change the equation come March. If you are as single as you are today, why. Yeah, why don't you know, like, you.
- [107:03]
Jess
You clearly, like, that sets me back of what I want.
- [107:06]
Host
You have to find balance in your life. You clearly are. You struggle with that. You can be intentional without being hardcore.
- [107:15]
Jess
Okay.
- [107:15]
Host
You know, you were allowed to go have a good time. You were allowed to like, yolo it. You are allowed to get a little crazy over a weekend. You're not too old for anything. You know, there's a difference between going to a festival and you're like, well, I'm 34, I don't do that anymore. Like, yeah, well, yeah, you're not, you're not 22 who's like, you're going on a three month tour, following a band while doing, you know, it's like, and, and in your mind you're acting like that's what you're doing. Just because one weekend you let loose and have a good time and you're just like, well, I'm. I have to be intentional about finding love. And if I'm not intentional every second of every day, I'm not gonna find it. Like, that's not how you get what you want. You have to find that balance to still be intentional, to still like. And then when you meet someone, you like to be intentional to ask those right questions. But again, and then if you start liking someone, it's not. You don't demand that you spend every holiday together. And like, like we do this thing, these things early in relationships where we set these artificial, like, benchmarks of, like, well, if you like me, then this has to mean something. And if you don't do this, it doesn't mean what I want. Like, you guys are just still getting to know each other in that first year, you know, and you could date someone, spend every day together, sleep at each other's houses, go to his families for the holidays and still break up. It doesn't make you guys stronger. It doesn't make you guys, like, closer. You know, like, if I would have, like, missed my family's Thanksgiving and went to hers, didn't. Doesn't mean we're a better relationship for. It doesn't mean we are more serious about each other than if I didn't. In fact, I could have been resentful. I could have been frustrated. I could have been like, why are we doing this? You know, we weren't ready. We both felt like we wanted to be with each other's families, and we were both okay with that. And, like, we were still confident with what we were working on, our relationship. And that didn't. Us going to our respective families for the holidays didn't mean we were less serious about a relationship. You get it in your head that it means something when something doesn't happen. And those, like, artificial benchmarks, like meeting family members at a certain time or whatever, like, every situation's different. What you have to do is just feel good about what you guys are talking about, which you didn't. Right. Because obviously he had some. But, like, that's the stuff that matters.
- [109:30]
Olivia
Yeah.
- [109:30]
Jess
You know, you don't feel like it, like, drives you guys further apart if you don't take these, like, moments that you're, like, in the same place to, like, see each other. Like, that's why I'm also, like. Because if we don't see each other for, like, if he's here and he spends time with his family, like, I just felt like it would. It would draw us further apart and sort of grow us together. If we're not taking the opportunities when we're in the same place to see each other or when we have the time off work to see each other, like, then what? Our relationship gets further apart because then we just. Just don't stop growing forward together. It's like, you're doing still your own thing and I'm doing my own thing.
- [110:05]
Host
Well, I think there's a difference there. Right. Like, I mean, I. I go back to the example I gave you about me and Natalie and the holidays in our first year, minus the holidays, we always felt like we wanted to be around each other and we never questioned that. You know, we felt that and we felt that security. And so it was easy for us to be like, okay, well, we can be without each other for the holidays. If you are in a situation, you might have been a little too strong with the holidays, but simultaneously you might have also had a right to feel like this guy, I don't feel like he wants that he misses me or wants to be around me. It doesn't feel like he is finding the time to be around me in between those small moments that aren't the holidays. Does that make sense?
- [110:47]
Jess
Right. Yeah.
- [110:48]
Host
He's not going out of his way. He is allowing me to show up up at his convenience. But that's not the same as making me feel like he really wants to see me.
- [110:59]
Jess
Yeah.
- [110:59]
Host
And that's.
- [111:00]
Jess
He did that one time that he changed his flight from the wedding and flew to be with me for a couple days. So that did feel good. And he did take the time to call me at the end of the night and talk for hours.
- [111:10]
Host
So that was a one off though. And then it wasn't consistent.
- [111:15]
Jess
Right.
- [111:16]
Host
So you have to be able to discern the difference between that, you know.
- [111:23]
Jess
Yeah, you can.
- [111:24]
Host
You know that's what I'm saying. Like there's a difference between these like benchmarks that we have in our head of that they mean something versus like the day to day feeling that you feel early in relationships, whether this person is really excited about you and makes it easy for you guys to see each other because like you always feel like it's not when are we going to hang out, it's how are we going to hang out. It's not if we're going to hang out, it's just like, like, you know, we, we are hanging out. It's just what are we going to do and where are we going to do it? You didn't feel that, you know, coupled with the holidays were around this time.
- [111:59]
Jess
Yeah. You know, timing was.
- [112:01]
Natalie
Yeah.
- [112:02]
Host
If he was making you feel like he always wanted to be around you and then he all of a sudden was like, well, hey, I have this trip to Colombia. I want to go. And you know, I would really like you to go, but like, I just, I'd really like, I'm, I really want to do this because it's kind of like on my bucket list. Just if you felt very secure about how he felt about you, you might be less fixated on making sure he, you spend The New Year's together.
- [112:25]
Jess
Right.
- [112:26]
Host
If that makes sense.
- [112:27]
Jess
No, it does. It does. Yeah. You are. No, this is helpful to hear. Okay, so going forward, do I like look for the guy that says like he wants.
- [112:38]
Host
Yeah. I mean, yeah, listen, it is your non negotiable. Yeah, it's definitely a red flag if you meet a guy who's like, I never want to have kids. Yeah, it's less of a red flag for, you know, like when you, you know, all this other stuff, you know, you were like, oh, his last girlfriend had kids and so he was like, fine with not having kids. And when while you were saying that, I'm thinking to myself, well, maybe he just got. Maybe. For a guy who having kids wasn't a big priority, it, it helped make the decision for him to be dating someone with kids who was like, oh, well, yeah, I mean, but like he was dating someone with kids, so in a way he kind of like, kind of had kids in a way. I don't know.
- [113:20]
Jess
That's what I asked too. I was like, you'd be the step father to their kids. And he's like, oh, no, no, I wouldn't. They already have a dad that we. She made it very clear, like, I wouldn't be that.
- [113:28]
Host
Okay. Well, yeah, either way, like if, you know, you know. So it was. So I, I'm just saying, like, if you meet a guy who's like, you know, I never really thought about having kids. It's not a big priority. That's not. And, but, but then you start dating and he's like, I really like you. And he starts, you know, it's just like I, I could see like having kids with you, you know, and that could change over time. And then like his lifestyle is, you know, he wasn't planning to retire in two years to travel the world and he was like, yeah, I don't know, I just. You felt like the life that he wanted for himself was kind of in line with you. Like, there's a lot of people who. Kids aren't like a number one priority and they're more like, like non committal about it, but they meet the right person, the right situation and realize that they want to have kids.
- [114:07]
Jess
Right.
- [114:08]
Host
You're describing someone who, like, everyone knows this guy and everyone's like, whoa, he's dating her. And we know, you know, like that, that, that, that doesn't seem.
- [114:18]
Jess
Yeah, that's how it felt. And that's was the hardest part.
- [114:21]
Host
Yeah. But like, don't get discouraged. You know, you're, you're like, well, what do I do next? You know? Like, yeah, yeah, maybe don't date someone who's like. Like clearly doesn't want to have kids. Who. Who. Who's like a. Who's giving Nomad. You know, there's a middle ground.
- [114:35]
Jess
Yeah, I hope so.
- [114:37]
Host
There is. Yeah. In the meantime, you have to try to chill out a little bit early on when you get excited.
- [114:44]
Jess
Pressure on it.
- [114:45]
Host
Yeah.
- [114:45]
Jess
Yeah.
- [114:46]
Host
Things going to. Will play out. You do have to be willing to waste your time, and you do have to be willing to get to know someone and just focus on the connection and the quality time that you guys do spend together and not measure it or compare it to anyone else or past relationships or what you think it means. It didn't mean anything that Natalie and I didn't spend the holidays together in the first year of our relationship.
- [115:12]
Jess
That helps to hear.
- [115:14]
Host
Yeah. What mattered is that we were on the same page and we felt secure in our connection. And your thing is you didn't feel secure, and then you were hoping that his. His. His intentions on the holidays would make you feel secure.
- [115:28]
Julie
Right.
- [115:28]
Host
And that's why you put all that pressure on it. Probably.
- [115:30]
Jess
Yeah. I was looking for a little bit more validation that we were gonna align.
- [115:35]
Host
So try not to stress about the wedding. The wedding will work itself out.
- [115:38]
Olivia
Yeah.
- [115:38]
Host
I think you're probably capable of assuming you're single, of going to this wedding and having a good time. It will in no way stop you, like, assuming you're single in March. If you go to the wedding, if you can just know that this is not your guy. It is not in any way slowing you down from finding what you want. It's just. It's just a weekend, you know, in short of you. Listen, if you can't emotionally handle it, if you're just like, I'm gonna. It's gonna set me back, and I'm gonna be. You know, I'm gonna fall in love with him, and I'm gonna get all fucked up emotionally, you know, then maybe don't do it. But if, you know, he's not your guy, you don't seem all that upset about the fact that you guys broke up. You're frustrated. You're dis. You know, but it's you. You. You accept that it's the right thing. Well, then you can go and have a good time with a guy you've had a good time with before, and know going in that that doesn't mean anything. He's not my guy. But I will enjoy his company and it's better to have. It's better to go to a wedding with a date.
- [116:37]
Jess
Yeah. It would be less awkward. That is for sure.
- [116:41]
Host
So you go have a good time and, and practice being chill. Practice. Really be in that moment of that wedding. If you're still be present, enjoy the wedding. Celebrate your friend. It is about your friend. It's not about you. Have a good time and just be grateful that you like, have a companion and, and I think you could have fun. And if you have a boyfriend, then, then that changes the equation. You'll figure it out.
- [117:03]
Jess
Yeah.
- [117:04]
Host
Cool.
- [117:04]
Jess
Okay. And like, what if I, like, in between that time, what if he starts like reaching out again and things start like, like, do I set that boundary of like, we're just friends? Do I cut it off? Do I was like, I called him last night and we talked for like another.
- [117:21]
Host
Do you really got to practice being chill and just be like, listen, like I. Again. That's why I think it's important for you to own your partner and to say I listen. I. I wasn't my best self when we were dating because I obviously, like, I knew that you didn't want to have kids or probably didn't want to have kids and you have all these like, individual goals for yourself with. I think she's really cool and excited. It just made me feel a little insecure about where I stood. And I don't, like, like you said, I don't want to stop you from living the life you have for yourself. And I just, I don't want to convince you and I don't want to argue with you over like things like Thanksgiving. So like, we probably made the best decision. And listen, if things changing your life, let me know. But like, we don't want the same things. And that's. And that is okay. You know, maybe he does come around. I don't know. But he can't be. You know, you will know whether he's saying. You will know whether it feels right or not. But listen to your gut, you know?
- [118:12]
Jess
Okay. Yeah.
- [118:13]
Host
And. And just know that know you're non negotiables. And if, if he's just looking to hang out because you're fun, but nothing's really changed, then you have to set those boundaries and enforce them on yourself. And to say no, I. I'm gonna have to say no. It's like, you're cool, but like, we. We ended things for a reason. And I'm sad. Don't get me wrong. You're a great. I wish you wanted you. What I want. But you don't. And that is. That's okay, you know, but like, let's not make it harder on ourselves than it needs to be. But I am down to go to this wedding with you and it's, you know, and let's. And let's have fun when we do it.
- [118:44]
Jess
Okay. That feels good. I think I can do that.
- [118:46]
Julie
Okay, awesome.
- [118:47]
Jess
Well, thank you so much. I appreciate this here from a guy's perspective.
- [118:52]
Host
All right, well, keep us posted.
- [118:54]
Jess
Thank you. I will tell Natalie say hi. She's so cute. All right.
- [118:58]
Host
Thank you. I appreciate it.
- [118:59]
Julie
It.
- [119:00]
Jess
Thank you. Have a good day.
- [119:16]
Host
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