Nick (2:23)

What specifically is he posting about you that's not true? Other than his relationship with you?

Rachel (2:28)

Yeah. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, he's depicting it as something that it's not. And of course, like, I would like to be close with him and have a relationship, so it's just.

Nick (2:35)

But you feel like you're not close because he chooses not to be. Mostly, yeah.

Rachel (2:39)

So maybe I can give you a little background on what happened last year. So my dad and I really had a tough relationship for many years. But it did start to get better. I got married last year, and in sort of the lead up to that, my now husband and I spent a lot more time with him. We. He would ask us to dinner, we would spend time with him. We included him in the wedding multiple different ways. But I started to get sort of hints that, you know, it wasn't enough and he was sort of dissatisfied with that. So we got to the wedding. You know, I thought it went well, but after that is sort of where the relationship broke down.

Nick (3:14)

And how did it break down?

Rachel (3:16)

I heard from my brother that he said it was so miserable, he wished he hadn't been invited, that he found the whole thing, like, embarrassing and how people perceived him. And then after that, he didn't invite us to Christmas. He didn't tell us when the family dog died, and the wedding was the last time I've seen him.

Nick (3:33)

How long have you been married?

Rachel (3:34)

A year.

Nick (3:37)

Have you tried to reach out?

Rachel (3:38)

I mean, a little bit. Like, he called me for my birthday and we talked a little bit.

Nick (3:42)

Did you ever confront him about what you heard about what he said about your wedding?

Rachel (3:46)

No, I didn't think that would be very additive and would be sort of like a he said, she said, defensive. It just obviously hurt my feelings a lot.

Nick (3:55)

Yeah.

Rachel (3:56)

You know, I'm disappointed that it wasn't as great an occasion for him as it was for me. But at this point, move past it.

Nick (4:03)

Well, what do you mean by move past it?

Rachel (4:05)

Like, I don't think it. We need to relitigate if he should have been upset at me for the wedding or not.

Nick (4:12)

Well, I don't think he should have been upset with you, but I think you have the right to be heard, and I think you have the right to express your frustrations about what you heard about what your dad said about your wedding. I'm assuming he didn't help pay for it.

Rachel (4:24)

He contributed something.

Nick (4:26)

He did. How much? Okay. Like a meaningful amount.

Rachel (4:28)

A meaningful, but not a majority just.

Nick (4:30)

To push back on you. I mean, we were talking about it, so you are relitigating it with me. So it obviously is Something that's bothering you, and you have the right for it to bother you. So I'm just saying, like, if it's going to be weighing on your heart and it's going to be something that you are spending emotionally emotional energy on, let. Let's be efficient and. And with our energy and time, and let's make sure that at some point the person you're. You should be focusing. This is your dad. Because it doesn't do any good venting to your husband or venting to us or talking with me if. If you're not gonna address it. Right. It's nice to get it out. Right. It's nice to vent. It's nice to have other people, like, validate that we're not crazy, you know, with how we feel. But if that's not enough, and sometimes it's not the reason, probably that my guess is just a guess. I'm guessing your husband probably supports you.

Rachel (5:26)

Of course.

Nick (5:27)

I'm guessing you vented to other people. Your brother, your mom, maybe other people in your family about this situation. Right. I'm guessing you had, for the most part, their support. Yeah. And yet it still bothers you.

Rachel (5:39)

It does. Yeah.

Nick (5:40)

Right.

Rachel (5:41)

And the reason it bothers him, too.

Nick (5:42)

Who bothers who?

Rachel (5:44)

My father.

Nick (5:44)

Well, let's. I don't care about your dad's feelings right now. It bothers you. But the part. The reason it still bothers you, even though you have all this other validation from other people, is because the person you really need to address this with is your dad. It sounds like you've used the excuse that you don't think what you have to say is really going to change your dad's mind as a reason not to speak your mind.

Rachel (6:02)

Yes.

Nick (6:03)

And sometimes you just need to, like, get it off your chest and just say it.

Rachel (6:07)

No, that definitely makes sense. I think in the past, conversations like this with my dad have just turned into, like, really toxic disagreements. And then it, you know, causes me a lot of, like, emotional energy and pain. And so sometimes it's just easier to.

Nick (6:20)

Yeah, no, I get it. I get it. Not start that changing your expectations of your dad can go a long way. You can expect less from your dad, but still have the right to be heard. Because I guess, you know, like, how do we get you through this? Right? You already see your dad a certain way. Like, you're not. You're not delusional about who your dad is. Right. It's not like everyone's saying, hey, you know, dad's kind of. And you're like, what do you mean? He's, like, fantastic. He has, like, he's flawless. Like, I mean, sure, he hurts my feelings, but, like, he's, you know, it's like, you're not delusional about who your dad is. Right. But you still have expectations of him to do a certain thing he's not doing, and that frustrates you. And then more than anything, what do you. What were you hoping to accomplish from this call?

Rachel (7:03)

I'm. I would just love us to get to whatever the best version of our relationship can be. And I think part of that comes from, as you mentioned, like, reasonable expectations for me. In the past, it's been a bit of an all or nothing with my father, which I'm trying to see more of. You know, maybe we can have a nice relationship, even if it isn't perfect.

Nick (7:19)

Does he have a similar relationship with your other siblings?

Rachel (7:22)

He has a closer relationship with my brother than he does with me.

Nick (7:25)

And from your perspective, why is that?

Rachel (7:27)

I think my brother sets boundaries and then doesn't enforce them. He'll just sort of continue signing up for some of the emotional pain. And over the years, I've just said, you know, at a. I'm going to step back a little bit from that.

Nick (7:40)

And what is your dad's big gripe with your wedding?

Rachel (7:42)

As I mentioned, he cares a lot about perception and what other people think of him. And so he really wanted to walk me down the aisle, which was totally understandable. I decided I didn't want to do that. I walked down hallways by myself all the time. I certainly wanted to do so at my own wedding. So I walked alone. He knew that in advance. We talked about it, and I think that that was what made him very upset, even though it wasn't a surprise day of.

Nick (8:07)

I guess I get it. And why did you choose that?

Rachel (8:09)

Just kind of an independent thing. Like, I made this decision for myself.

Nick (8:13)

It was definitely for yourself. It wasn't in any way, like, I don't think you deserved the right to do this.

Rachel (8:18)

I don't think so. If that was the reason, I would have had my mom walk me down the aisle. She and I are incredibly close, and I just wanted to do it myself.

Jen (8:26)

Okay.

Nick (8:26)

Did you have any conversations with your dad about that?

Rachel (8:29)

I did, yeah. We talked about the wedding multiple times. As I mentioned, our relationship was doing better at that time. So, you know, I had told him in advance. He also had asked if we were doing, like, parent child dances. And neither my husband nor I did those with our parents. And I explained that to him in advance. And I talked about. I wanted to make sure he did feel included. So he gave a speech at the reception. There was a religious ceremony that he was involved in as well. So I talked to him a lot about, you know, what he would be a part of, and I wanted to make sure that that was something he was, like, comfortable and happy with, but it wasn't enough.

Nick (9:01)

Well, how was the speech?

Rachel (9:02)

It was good. I had seen a draft beforehand. It was short and sweet, but very nice, I thought.

Nick (9:07)

Another thing. Your birthday. You haven't really spoken to your dad since because of his feelings about the wedding?

Rachel (9:12)

Yeah, in the past couple months, especially since I wrote in. I get a text or a little check in, which is nice, but he hasn't tried to see me, unfortunately.

Nick (9:25)

Have you tried to see him?

Rachel (9:26)

No.

Jen (9:27)

Okay.

Nick (9:29)

In a perfect world, like, what would you like to see happen?

Rachel (9:32)

I would like us to have a relationship that is nice, but without the expectations of, like, weekly seeing each other or, you know, long calls or anything. So some relationship, but with boundaries to sort of avoid the constant disappointments that I've had over the years.

Nick (9:51)

And where do these disappointments stem from?

Rachel (9:54)

I think that's a lot to unpack there. There's some religious differences that I've felt, like, shamed of in the past. There's, like, direct criticism. There's, like, favoritism of my brother over me, a whole host of things.

Nick (10:09)

Okay, but you obviously. I mean, you know, this is kind of a line, but you said my dad uses me on social media. Like, where? Does that really bother you?

Rachel (10:19)

It just. When I wrote in, that's what pissed me off that week, because he made this big post about National Daughter's Day on Facebook when I haven't heard from him at all. And I was like, okay, that's nice.

Nick (10:31)

Interesting.

Rachel (10:32)

I would say. One other thing I would add. There is now, looking back, I feel that maybe the reason I heard from my dad a lot more was when the wedding was leading up and he sort of expected to get something from me. I felt a real change in the relationship after. And then coming up, my husband and I are hoping to have children soon, and I'm just suspecting that that's when I'll start to hear from my dad again.

Nick (10:51)

Yeah, maybe. Well, I guess. What do you want to do about it? Like, what are you willing to do about it?

Rachel (10:55)

I think I might need to have a conversation on. You're right. That maybe I haven't let go of hurt on this as much as I would like to Think I have. And maybe just putting that out there.

Nick (11:05)

Yeah. I mean, because I guess that's kind of my point is this, like, this is something that still bothers you. Totally get why. I guess you just have to be willing to do something about it. And I. And as I sit here, I feel like you have two options, kind of, which is to, like, just kind of accept this as your dad is. He's probably not going to change, and then kind of find your ability to just kind of accept that and then move forward with your, you know, and stop waiting around for your dad. And because there is an element of, like, you. You are still waiting for your dad to change, or you're still waiting for your dad to do something different. You know, like, you're like, I haven't heard from him in a year. And then I was like, well, have you reached out to him? And you're like, no. And I'm not saying it's your job or his job, but now you're both adults. It is what it is at this point. And, you know, if you want something to change, usually the quickest way to go about doing that is you. You being that change or leading that change. You know, the second option is this again, like, just. Just try to deal with the problem head on rather than vent to other people. You know, all I can do is sit here and guess with you, and again, I can validate that. Like, that sounds like that's shitty. Your dad sounds a little selfish. And I would. I wouldn't. I hope I don't do what your dad does, you know, with my kids. I'd be fascinated to hear your dad's point of view. How about this?

Rachel (12:23)

I guess to your point, the only way I can find out is by bringing it up and hearing his version of events, because I'm sure it's different than mine.

Nick (12:30)

Yeah. So I guess. Yeah. What do you think makes the most sense for you?

Rachel (12:36)

I think maybe it makes sense to reach out and have a conversation specifically about the wedding, given that seems to be sort of the inflection point in what was a positive trajectory and then sort of stopped. I guess my question would be, I mean, hopefully that conversation goes awesome in what I see as the more likely possibility that we still have some disagreements and not seeing eye to eye after that, what is the next step to come out of that and carve a path to some sort of better relationship?

Nick (13:04)

Yeah, I mean, I guess it sounds like the wedding is the inflection point, but like you said, it's kind of a Whole year away. I don't know if he. It's only inflection point for you. I think it would go further if you made contact with him. You weren't like, hey, so I know you're mad about the wedding, and I know the wedding has. And you're maybe right, but I do think approaching it that way puts him on the defense quicker as opposed to saying, hey, dad, like, I wish we were closer, and I'd love to have a talk with you about us being closer, which doesn't start the conversation out by pointing the finger. And that's just usually a better place to start a conversation and then kind of, you know, see what he has to say. At some point. Yeah, you might have to give him some direct feedback. Like, I heard that you seem to be very frustrated with how things played out at the wedding. And then I, you know, I haven't really seen much of you since then. I wonder if he's going to, like, you know, phone work both ways kind of comment. Do you think he would say something like that?

Rachel (14:01)

Maybe historically, he's more likely to want to litigate the specific issue at hand.

Nick (14:09)

Like, give me an example. Like if. If. Let's say. Let's. Let's say I'm dad, and you're like.

Rachel (14:13)

Here'S a good example. So he didn't tell me your family dog died as a. As a punishment. He said he told my brother, don't tell her. When she picks up the phone and calls me, then she can know. And my brother told me, obviously.

Nick (14:26)

And this punishment was for what? You not reaching out to him?

Rachel (14:29)

I guess that was, you know, a couple months after the wedding. And so a couple months ago, he texted me something, and I was like, hey, I. I really wish you would have told me the dog died. He said, of course I did. I told you the next day, which didn't happen. But, you know, if we both believe in different versions of the truth, it's very hard to.

Nick (14:49)

Well, you know, that's a lot. And you know that he knows it's a lie.

Rachel (14:52)

So then. So then what do I say? I can't say you're lying to me.

Nick (14:56)

Why not?

Rachel (14:56)

Because he. I think he truly believes in the version of the truth where he is the protagonist in every situation, which maybe we all. But I think he believes that's tough to deal with.

Nick (15:07)

I don't like if, you know, if you're basically like, my dad just lies and he believes his lies. You know, I don't know stuff.

Rachel (15:17)

Another example would be like, a Month before the wedding, he told me that he was upset that I hadn't told him where the wedding was. And so when people asked him, it made him look bad because he didn't know where the wedding was. And I said, we've talked about it multiple times. I have told you. And also if you forget, it's on the invitation. And he said, we've never talked about it and I shouldn't have to look at the invitation to know where your wedding is.

Nick (15:42)

Yeah, it's tough. You, you said that when you and your husband decide to have children, you think you're going to hear more from your dad? Why?

Rachel (15:49)

Because I'll have content to provide for him. That's my hypothesis on what's going to happen.

Nick (15:54)

Okay.

Rachel (15:55)

His effort in our relationship increased 10 times when I got engaged, which at the time I thought was a hopeful sign that maybe he's changed, maybe he's worked on himself.

Nick (16:04)

Is it just you and your brother? Do you have other siblings?

Rachel (16:07)

Yes.

Nick (16:07)

Okay. It is. Do you feel like you guys are a united front?

Rachel (16:11)

No. Why not? I think my brother likes his role sometimes as the person we both gossip to. So I've been trying really hard to do a lot less of that because I don't think it's been helpful.

Nick (16:21)

Has your dad always been like this?

Rachel (16:23)

Yes. Or worse.

Nick (16:26)

And what is your opinion of your dad?

Rachel (16:28)

I think he has some self esteem issues that turn into self aggrandizing, caring a lot of other people's perception of him and making some selfish decisions. I want him to be happy and I want him to have the things he wants in life. And so it makes me sad sometimes that I feel like his actions counteract those goals. But it's been years and years of the same kind of behavior.

Nick (16:53)

And when your dad is doing this, how do you respond to him when he says things like, well, we did talk about it, but either way I shouldn't have to read your. How do you respond?

Rachel (17:06)

I used to very honest respond in anger and in an unproductive way. Now I just try not to respond at all. Which also isn't productive but a little bit less destructive. I would say just like, okay, no respond.

Nick (17:20)

Why did your parents get divorced?

Rachel (17:23)

I'm sure there are lots of reasons, but I think decades of this sort of same behavior to her. And then my brother and I went to college and left the house and it was just too much.

Nick (17:31)

What's your dad doing now?

Rachel (17:32)

I think he has a girlfriend. I think that because he started sending me pictures of him and her with no context.

Nick (17:38)

So since your wedding, you're receiving pictures of him and a woman that you don't know?

Rachel (17:42)

Yes.

Nick (17:43)

He just randomly sends them like a couple. Do you respond?

Jen (17:48)

I didn't.

Rachel (17:49)

I knew he wanted me to say, who is that? And so I didn't respond. No.

Nick (17:55)

Okay, listen, I, I don't know how.

Rachel (17:57)

She also looks a lot like my mom. So I just was like, okay, you.

Nick (18:02)

Know, this is a tough one from what I'm hearing from you. First of all, completely empathize with your position in the sense that, like, it must be very frustrating to have a parent like this. I don't have a parent like that. I appreciate how difficult it might be. People I know who I care about do have parents like that. And I feel very grateful to have the parents I have. Just want to acknowledge that. And I guess what I'm going to say to you is in line with what I said to a lot of people who call in about, you know, disconnects with their parents, which is something along the lines of, do you want to be right? Do you want to be happy? Situation where you knowing that your dad, like, it's like your dad send you a picture of him and what you perceived as girlfriend. And you knowing your dad, you had a pretty good idea of what your dad was hoping in response and you, you deliberately chose the opposite. And all I'm saying is like, if nothing else, if your goal is really truly to have a closer relationship with your father, then ain't cutting it. That's like, that's not doing it, you know? Are you right? Almost certainly. Do you have a reason to be very frustrated with your dad who sounds, you know, incredibly self centered, maybe even a little narcissistic? And could someone say, you know, someone like myself who early in my fatherhood years takes really great pride in being there for my daughter and really I hold myself to an extraordinarily high level as a dad. Do I kind of judge your dad? Yeah, I do. Like, I think, I think there are bad parents out there, but this is your dad. It's the only one you got. And again, like, you just have to like, what do I really want? Do I want to prove my dad wrong? That's an option. You know what you, what's, what's not possible, it doesn't seem like is do proving your dad wrong, getting to see you acknowledge that you're right and then simultaneously having the relationship you want with him. You know, it's like, which one would you rather have? Would you rather be right or Would you rather just have your dad in your life? Yeah, I don't.

Rachel (20:04)

I mean, I think you're right.

Nick (20:05)

You have an option. And some people, some people are like, yeah, no, honestly, I. I don't think there's value in having my, my mom and my dad in my life.

Rachel (20:14)

Unfortunately. The truth is I've been a lot happier not having my dad in my life. And this drama, like, I have other things going on in my life. They're taking a lot of my emotional energy and it's better to not have to worry about it except for, you know, some flare ups when I get triggered. But to your point, I'm lucky to have two parents who are alive. And, you know, I should probably try to fix that relationship, even if I have to take a couple on the chin.

Nick (20:38)

I would maybe just start with pity. I would feel sorry for your dad.

Rachel (20:42)

I do.

Nick (20:43)

I do feel sorry. Natalie's been pretty open about her relationship with her dad. I have a disapproval of him and I have a lot of pity for him. I don't know why he chose to go about his life the way he did, but as he where he's at now, I don't plan on being in his position and I plan on doing things about it and I pity him. And I think sometimes pity can go a long way. You know, I don't know why your dad is the way he is, and already you have some guesses. But for a guy who you claim is sending you a picture knowing that he wants validation from his daughter, I mean, listen, I. I mean, it makes sense you'd want validation for his daughter, but there's a. There's a sadness there. Not, you know, who cares so much. You know, there's a sadness that he spent the time that he did to make this Facebook post knowing it was disingenuous. I mean, he's not told, you know, he might be a little delusional, but deep down he might know that like his. He doesn't have a positive, like a great relationship with his daughter. And yet he's. He's celebrating himself, you know?

Rachel (21:46)

Yeah, I don't think he's delusional. I think he knows that.

Nick (21:49)

Yeah. So I'd pity him. And I guess I only said it because like you, you also have anger and you have the right to be angry and your anger causes you to do things like, well, I know he's want me to do this, so I'm gonna do that, you know, and like, how hard would have it been for you to send a message, be like, oh, what a really nice picture. I look forward to meeting her because maybe this woman makes her dad happy or maybe not. Maybe it makes her miserable. But he wants you to care and caring and like, again, I've said this to a lot of people who have called in above parents. Even now, like I have, I have amazing, exceptional parents. I'm very lucky to have the parents I have. But like, as my parents get older and I get older, that role changes, you know, and I, I, my parents don't need a parent. But like sometimes I'm, you know, we take on a different responsibility and I think that we just have to accept that. And so you're still wanting your dad to make up for lost time and be the dad that he wasn't in, in the past and still be that dad. And I think you have to let go of that expectation because it's probably never going to happen, you know, and all you really want is just like a relationship with the guy because for all, for all his faults, like, you know, Natalie desires a relationship with her dad that she'll probably never have. She's done a really good job of forgiving him and accepting his faults so that she can have some kind of relationship. And it doesn't change. It doesn't stop her from rolling her eyes often or just being disappointed. But she's been able to get to a place of peace in that relationship. And I think that's what I want for you is to at least be at peace with this relationship and not waste your emotional energy being frustrated with a man that you're not even seeing in your life. Yeah, like, like pick one. You know, either, either have them in your life where he still pisses you off and you annoys you and you roll your eyes, but at least your dad's in your life. Or, or just let it go and accept it for what it is. But you don't want to let it go, which I totally get.

Rachel (23:54)

I feel like letting it go is a, is a pretty selfish option. So I have tried that and it's brought me some peace. But some peace I would like to.

Nick (24:04)

Right.

Rachel (24:05)

I'd like to show some growth.

Nick (24:07)

Yeah, it's brought you said like some peace. Right. And it sounds like you distancing yourself from dad has brought you some peace to extent that or it's just like on a day to day you don't have to worry about the dad drama. But there is something about this relationship you want and yearn for that. It does make you sad and it makes you angry. At times. And it does take up your emotional energy and at times does trigger you and sets you back. And so you've, you know, like, so the. The. Even though you can say distancing myself has, you know, I'm generally happier, You. You, I think, suspect that you could be even more content and at peace about this relationship. You. Distancing yourself is probably a better solution than you stubbornly fighting with dad and getting caught up in his drama. Cause that's what used to. Right? It's like dad would act like a child. You would be like, well, hey, I'm a kid, so let's be kids and we'll argue. And you. You never want to fight. And you always felt, you know, it's just like, it was probably very frustrating, very discouraging. And, And. And your solution to that was saying this him, I'm. I'm just gonna, like, not deal. And that was definitely better than fighting with the man about childish things. But it hasn't brought you the peace that you want with your dad.

Rachel (25:27)

Yeah, you're right.

Nick (25:28)

So we want to find a different solution than those two other solutions. And I feel like the middle ground again, is like, again, first, it's just really just accepting who dad is. Stop having expectations of him that he'll probably never meet. And then maybe, maybe stop instigating the things that you don't need to instigate. Because, like, in that scenario, what's. You didn't take the time to. You haven't taking the time to try to articulate your frustrations with your dad. I understand why. Because you assume, and probably rightfully so, how he'll respond. You get mad at your dad for the example of don't let her know our dog died as a punishment. And so then you try to punish your dad, you know, by not responding, knowing what he wanted from it. And it's like, how is that productive? And so, yeah, you need to be the productive person and you need to be the adult, you know, because you are one. And if your dad chooses to want to still be a child, don't let him bring you down. Help try to bring him up. He might not, you know, ever get there, but don't let him. Him winning is you bringing yourself to his level, you rising above and setting certain boundaries. And, you know, and also, when it comes to you having kids, you are in the driver's seat. Whether it's genuine or sincere, having own a relationship with your grandkids or just being on Facebook posts, you. You. You will be able to dictate his access to your kids and you. And, you know, I would be careful how you do that, but you certainly can, you know, if he is insecure about himself, make him feel secure, stop doing the things that you know are going to antagonize him, that activate him and set him off, and then make him say things that are hurtful and unnecessary. Back to, like, your wedding. I just can't help but wonder, and I don't doubt that you're like, yeah, I just want to go down the aisle by myself. I'm not saying that's not true, but I can't help but wonder if it's like, you, like, why could I ask my mom? But you were like, well, you know, I'm. I'm a traditional girl. And like, it's. I. If I had a good relations with my dad, I would have asked him. I don't have a good relations with my dad. I have a girl with my mom. But it's almost like overdoing it, you know, and it's like, I don't want to do that. So I want to be independent. I want to walk myself down the aisle. But if I had, like, I feel like if you had the relationship you wanted with your dad, your dad would have walked you down the aisle. Maybe.

Rachel (27:43)

I, I think I'm so many years from that. Maybe. Who knows?

Nick (27:47)

It just, what I'm saying, it could have been like, I just, I feel like you just, you know, what will make your dad happy. You've proven that, and you've. And you. And you've shown a willingness to deliberately not do those things because you don't think he deserves it or it's payback for what he did or didn't do for you. And that's totally valid and it makes a lot of sense. But in your adulthood, it's. It's just not getting you to the place you want to get to. And I would just challenge you, I suppose, in those moments to just not. Do not do things in retaliation. Try to take a step back and do the things that I would like my dad to do for me. Lead by example. Be the relationship you want to be. I always reference Ronnie Wu from time to time about this, who we had as on a guest, and he used to be a psychologist, and he was like, listen, you know, if you want to be in a relationship where someone texts you right back, don't wait three days, you know, type of thing. But that mindset is so true in any relationship that we have. You know, like, it is annoying to Be the bigger person. But honestly, it also is a lot. You are. You are way more in control in those relationships, and it's a lot easier to be content and because, like, you want to be in the place that if you don't have the relationship with your dad that you want, you can honestly say, I have truly done everything I could do. And I don't think you're in a position to say that right now. Is that fair?

Rachel (29:01)

I think it's. It's fair right now. I think there was, like, a time I was trying really hard before the wedding, and I. We're making a lot of progress. And then.

Nick (29:09)

So I'm curious about that. When you say, like, describe, like, what. What were you. What do you mean by trying? And then what was he not doing?

Rachel (29:15)

No, at that time, it was going really well, so we were seeing each other a lot. You know, I. We did, like, a birthday dinner for him. We talked a lot. I felt we were both trying hard, and that's why it was really encouraging. And then that's why. Then the sharp turn, I think, was even more kind of painful after.

Nick (29:32)

Well, it sounds like the sharp term came from. Well, I don't think you did anything wrong. Him feeling slighted?

Rachel (29:37)

Yes.

Nick (29:38)

I paid for this wedding. I was supposed to be honored as the father of the bride. My daughter did some things I didn't appreciate or like. And again, now I want to punish her. And then you received that as. Wait, you only did this for yourself? And then you didn't get what you want on my wedding and you're gonna make me pay for it?

Rachel (29:59)

Yes.

Nick (29:59)

You know, and so you just got. You both just had a different point of view about one situation, and then you both kind of stubbornly let that affect your relationship. I wonder what your mom. I wonder. I'm curious if your mom thinks how much of you are like your dad.

Rachel (30:14)

My mom has a. A high opinion of me and a horrible opinion of him.

Nick (30:18)

Oh, okay.

Rachel (30:20)

I don't. I don't know what she would say, but it's probably a bit biased.

Nick (30:23)

Do you have any traits of your father?

Rachel (30:25)

I imagine so.

Nick (30:26)

I call Nally Stubbs when. Sometimes when she's being really stubborn like her dad.

Rachel (30:31)

Yeah, I think stubborn. A bit of a temper that I'm trying to work for or work on. You asked how my mom would view and. And I wouldn't trust her opinion on this, but I would say my brother I mentioned is much closer with my father than I am. And he and I have not always been very close, but he told me that after the wedding that he thought I was 100% right and my father was 0% right.

Nick (30:53)

I mean, I agree with you because it's your wedding. I think you're incredibly selfish of your dad in any way to make your wedding about him. 100. But that's really not the point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're definitely right. It just sucks that your dad is the way. Yeah. To be clear, your dad sounds like a pain in the ass as a father, but there's something inside you that wants to have a relationship with this man, and I totally get it.

Rachel (31:16)

I think you're right. I could respond very easily and it wouldn't take much of my time, and I choose not to. And I think that's on me.

Nick (31:23)

Yeah. Because again, you.

Jen (31:24)

You.

Nick (31:25)

It sounds like you're much better than your dad at recognizing your faults and owning what you can, what you need to own and taking responsibility. And you've seen your dad do enough of things where you probably tell yourself, I don't want to be like that, and that's a good thing. But you. I think you just need to forgive him for his faults and make a small man feel a little bit better about himself. You don't need that. Like, he needs that.

Rachel (31:50)

Yeah.

Nick (31:50)

I don't think at this point in your dad's life, it's really going to change.

Jen (31:54)

No.

Nick (31:55)

I'll have a lot of therapy, and chances are he's not going to do that.

Rachel (31:59)

He claims he's in therapy, but I think it's more like a Bible study counseling situation. And it's more than he waves around. Like, I went to six Bible studies this week.

Nick (32:11)

Yeah. To your point, it doesn't sound like your dad's like, you know, I got some real complicated interpersonal relations in my life. Right. I'm pretty sure I. I'm kind of the problem. I haven't really identified them, and I want to go talk to someone to see what, like, I could do to, like, you know, like, again, you called in being like, I don't know, what am I doing wrong? You know, I don't think your dad's doing that.

Rachel (32:31)

He goes to counseling and he comes and says, and he agrees with me that your mom shouldn't have divorced me. That's great.

Nick (32:39)

You know, so, yeah, that's just kind of my point. Right. And so that's just not going to change. So do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? So just. Just stop doing things to antagonize your dad. And I think I think you just gotta let that shit go. The. The Facebook post or, like, it's like, your dad needs this, and you know it's not true. Do you really think your dad has anyone fooled?

Rachel (33:05)

Not anyone that I care about.

Nick (33:07)

There you go. Chances are I bet the people your dad works with or knows or friends, if you sat down with them, they would all be like, listen, yeah, that's your. That is your dad. Yeah, he does that. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't think you would surprise anyone, you know, so. And there's that part of you that's angry that he's out there fronting his relationship with his daughter, and you're like, you don't deserve that credit. And I don't think anyone's giving him credit. Yeah. And that's where, I mean, that pity comes in, where you can be like, it's kind of sad, but, like, he needs me. He needs me. He does. He needs you more than you need him.

Rachel (33:43)

That's. Yeah, I think that's definitely true.

Nick (33:46)

Was this helpful? I don't know.

Rachel (33:48)

It was helpful.

Jen (33:48)

Yeah.

Rachel (33:49)

It was just good to hear a different perspective. That's not like, you're right, he's wrong, because there's not a lot of a good action plan that comes from that.

Nick (33:57)

Yeah, you're definitely right. And he seems wrong, and he seems like a mess. And, you know, as someone who's highly critical of dads these days. I'm critical of your father, but, yeah, you can't replace. You know, this is what it is.

Jen (34:13)

Yep.

Rachel (34:14)

I only got the one.

Nick (34:15)

You only got the one. All right, well, maybe respond to that text.

Rachel (34:20)

Yeah, I think I will. Thanks, Nick. I really appreciate your help. I'm a longtime listener. I love your show.

Nick (34:24)

Well, I appreciate you listening, but, yeah, your dad's selfish. He's always going to do things that benefit him. I think he probably has a hard time articulating how he feels about you, and I think he has a hard time being vulnerable. So give him some grace and some pity and. And try to be the one who's probably the parent and the bigger person in this relationship, and try not to retaliate and try to just accept your dad for who he is. You will constantly be frustrated. You will roll your eyes. It doesn't mean you don't have the right to be. You know, it's like, you know, again, like, if. If you have a kid who just is kind of a fuck, you're going to love him no matter what, and you'll probably wish that they listened better or did this or did that. But you are, you were always going to do the thing that you wish your dad. And I think in a little bit you kind of have to like treat your dad that way.

Rachel (35:13)

You can do that.

Nick (35:14)

Okay. All right.

Rachel (35:15)

Thank you.

Nick (35:16)

Good luck. Happy holidays.

Rachel (35:17)

Thanks.

Nick (35:18)

Keep us posted.

Rachel (35:19)

I will.

Nick (35:19)

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Lucy (37:01)

How's it going, hello, my name is Lucy, I'm 29 years old, and I'm in love with a loser.

Nick (37:06)

Okay, well, nice to meet you, Lucy. Why are you in love with a loser? Why are they a loser? Why are you in love with them? I feel like it answers itself almost. What's going on?

Lucy (37:18)

So I fell in love with my ex, and we have, like, the most chemistry. Like, I love him, and we'd only been dating for a few months, but he kind of already has some emotional baggage. There are some trust issues.

Nick (37:31)

What do you mean when you fell in love with your ex?

Lucy (37:33)

Like, he's now my ex.

Nick (37:34)

He's now your ex. Okay, gotcha.

Lucy (37:36)

He's now my ex because the reason he's now my ex is because I ended up losing a parent suddenly. And then that's okay. After that, he couldn't, like, handle it emotionally because, you know, that's significant to lose a parent. And then I found out he cheated on me, like, a couple weeks after.

Nick (37:57)

I'm sorry.

Lucy (37:58)

So, yeah, so when he cheated on me, I broke up with him. But I am. My question to you is I kind of want to take him back because I'm still in love with him.

Nick (38:08)

Okay.

Lucy (38:09)

And I'm getting older, and it's hard to find, like, that level of chemistry in the dating world.

Nick (38:15)

You're 29.

Rachel (38:16)

Yes.

Nick (38:17)

It's a great age. It's a great age. Okay? So, I mean, listen, people have worked through infidelity, but that being said, you know, like, so to be clear, he's a loser because he cheated on you, and he's kind of emotionally, like, immature and, like, wasn't very supportive in a very critical time for you, and then he, in addition to not being, like, supportive in there for you when you. You. When you lost a parent. And I'm not sure what you asked of him, but I'm assuming, like, obviously you were very emotional and your spirits were down and. And et cetera, et cetera, and he found that to be kind of icky and almost inconvenient. Like, kind of like you gave him. You gave him the male ick with your emotions because your parent passed away.

Rachel (39:02)

Yes.

Nick (39:03)

And then he. And then he proceeded to express himself by. By hooking up with someone else.

Rachel (39:09)

Yes. That's why he's a teaser.

Nick (39:10)

Yeah. Right. So what. So why do we want to take him back? I mean, you mentioned chemistry, but is that it? It's just, like, you just get the. Get some butterflies when you're around them?

Lucy (39:19)

Yeah, I think just emotionally and physically, really. Connected to him, and I. I left out. I have to see him pretty much every day because I work with him.

Nick (39:29)

Okay, what do you mean by emotionally connected to him?

Lucy (39:32)

Like, just feel like love and like. Like, just immense, like, love for him and like, my best friend.

Nick (39:39)

Your best friend. So what's your friend situation look like? Is he your only friend? Do you have, like, girlfriends? Other. Like, if you were to collect all your friends, be like, these are all my friends, what would that look like?

Lucy (39:50)

Oh, that I have a really good, strong friend group.

Nick (39:53)

And he's the best one of that. Of those people.

Jen (39:56)

No, no, no.

Nick (39:58)

So he's not your best friend?

Lucy (40:01)

I guess not in that sense.

Nick (40:02)

I just want to get an accurate picture of. Of. Of what's going on. I just. And I'm giving you a hard time, but in these moments where you're feeling confusion, I hope that's okay for me to say. You know, like, sometimes we're just really not honest with ourselves about the situations, and we're good at convincing ourselves the things we want. And then, you know, if you want to get back with your ex, you know, again, people have worked through situations, you know, more difficult than. Than quite honestly, you have. But that doesn't necessarily mean this is the right decision for you. And, you know, if you are going to work through something like this, it needs to be him doing a lot of the heavy lifting. And. And there's no guarantees, but it really needs to be clear that he is truly contrite and really understands how he treated you and acted and et cetera, et cetera, as opposed to allowing some time to pass, allowing you to cool down, so to speak, miss him just enough where then he could just pop back in, and then you can kind of, like, you have a hard time almost like, waiting, you know, the pain he caused versus, like, the excitement he made you feel.

Lucy (41:13)

Yeah. And I. I think when you say he would have to do much of the heavy lifting and be very, like, transparent, emotional about what. How he treated me. I don't ever see that happening ever.

Nick (41:26)

Okay. You're not even, like, maybe you're like, it's never gonna happen, but it's.

Lucy (41:31)

I've tried to date in the time since we broke up.

Nick (41:34)

How long ago was that?

Rachel (41:36)

A few months.

Lucy (41:36)

Just a couple of months.

Nick (41:38)

A couple months.

Lucy (41:40)

It's very difficult, so.

Nick (41:42)

I know, but it's only been, like, a couple months.

Rachel (41:45)

Yes.

Lucy (41:45)

Yes. It's only been a couple.

Nick (41:47)

I hate my answer. Yeah.

Lucy (41:48)

Yes.

Nick (41:50)

Listen, I don't. I don't care what you do. I Do want you to be happy. You know, listen, like right now you're in this emotional state and you are essentially trying to convince yourself and me that this is the right decision for you. And you are using your feelings to justify your choices. You know, you feel this chemistry for him. You miss him. You, you, you feel like dating is just really. It's, there's just no point. It's like there's all. It's just. I tried for a couple months. I met every guy possible. They're all absolutely trash and garbage. And while this guy is not much better than the trash that's out there, at least I want to him.

Lucy (42:34)

And I, I feel, yeah, I feel like, I feel like you're telling me that I know that I don't want.

Rachel (42:44)

To be with him.

Nick (42:46)

I think I'm suggesting to you that deep down you know that like this isn't going to bring you long term happiness. And right now, and listen, it sounds like you're from this timeline you're giving me that your parent passing. It's still, I mean, what, a few more months? You know, like four or five months. I can only imagine this must be a very difficult time for you.

Lucy (43:13)

Yeah.

Rachel (43:14)

Yeah.

Lucy (43:15)

The grief is still there as well. And that could make the emotional like me wanting that emotional safety a little more than I.

Nick (43:21)

Holidays are coming up. You know, I get why you just want to forget it all and just like have them there, play some board games, just drink some eggnog. You want to probably forget about things that make you sad. And you know, there have been times where he's made you happy and I can't help but wonder if you're just, you're just really, you know, and I get it. Like there's a part of you that just. Just doesn't want to feel sad anymore, right?

Rachel (43:47)

Yeah.

Lucy (43:47)

Happiness and like connection because those, those are two losses close together. My mom, my parent, and then my boyfriend. So that's sad. Yeah, I feel sad and I just want like that connection back.

Nick (44:03)

Yeah, I totally get it. I mean like I remember I was 18. This is in no way compared to what you're going through. But I know how sad I felt. So I can, I can only try to empathize. My mom had some surgery. It was pretty serious surgery at the time. And then my first girlfriend was. This was like the first time of many times we broke up. But like you, I felt like I just like my mom was down bad. It was, you know, a slightly scary time. She's okay. You know, I also wasn't worried about her, Her. Her surviving the surgery. But even then it felt. I felt very lonely and like it was just like, oh, my God. And then my girlfriend and I broke up and just like, yeah, I remember that feeling vividly. And that's like 20 years ago, so I can only imagine what you're feeling right now. So I get the desire to want to get back together with him. I really do. I just don't know if it's going to bring you the happiness and peace that you seem to be looking for.

Jen (44:59)

Right.

Rachel (44:59)

I would agree with that.

Lucy (45:01)

I think maybe now is the time to focus on me.

Nick (45:06)

Yeah. I couldn't help but think of this book I wrote. It's called don't text your ex happy birthday. It was sitting right in front of you, so I figured I'd bring it out. But there's this chapter about chemistry and compatibility that I think would resonate with you. Oh, here we go. Okay. Prioritize the boundaries you set over the chemistry you feel. When it comes to dating and looking for the one, many of us rely on feeling chemistry or a natural connection to let us know when we found someone worth exploring. Chemistry is a real thing. It is that tangible feeling of magnetic attraction that really begins with the initial fascination you may have with a person. However, the thing about chemistry is that it's very hard to trust its potential. It may immediately fizzle out after a few intoxicating flares of lust. Some people are just more naturally charismatic and we all tend to feel a sort of instant connection with them. Perhaps they are thrillingly present or possess a larger in life aura. Or maybe they just naturally gifted at relating to people. Chemistry can also be manufactured when certain aspects of our environments are controlled. As someone who spent a lot of time focusing on love and reality TV environment, I can assure you that when you have a singular focus and a limited supply of anything, it's not that hard to start feeling all sorts of chemistry with people. And I kind of go on to talk about just like situations like, you know, being from the same church or friend group or the same job can like play a role in how you feel chemistry with someone. Because part of chemistry is just like having common interest or things like that, you know? You know, comfort can make you feel a certain type of chemistry with people. This is all to say, I don't mean to read you the chapter, but it's more like you kept mentioning I feel this chemistry. I feel this chemistry. And I don't doubt those feelings feel real, like it is someone again to my Point. Who went on a reality TV show and people ask me, like, did you really fall? It's like, yeah. The feelings I felt in that environment, like, it's. Were real and real in the sense that I felt them, you know. Now, did they turn out to be love? No. You know, they turned out to be really intense feelings. I felt that at the time, you know, like, what's the difference between lust and love in the. In the moment? You know, you don't really. Their body doesn't really feel the difference. Well, actually, I would say then I'm just kind of speaking out loud. I think often the difference between when you're feeling intense feelings with someone, you know, you get those sparkles, you get the butterflies, whatever you want to call it. I honestly think the difference between that being infatuation, lust, chemistry, whatever you want to call it versus love is how safe does that feeling make you feel?

Lucy (47:40)

Yeah, I think you're right in terms of, like, the having strong chemistry with someone doesn't necessarily make them make that person a good partner, because being a good partner is something much different than just that love and those feelings.

Nick (47:56)

Yeah. So I, you know, I think for you, I just want you to give yourself grace right now. You know, I've been through a lot. I am going through it right now. This is not a time in my life I'm gonna look back and go, wow, I want to do that again. I miss that, you know, now, hopefully it's a time in your life where you look back, you know, outside the passing of your mom, you know, that will always be sad. But, like, when it comes to him, I hope that you look back and chuckle about the time that you almost call. You called into a podcast and you asked me if you should get back to. With a guy that, you know, you had no business ever getting back with. And the idea of being with him makes you chuckle and, like, laugh a little bit of how silly that idea was in your head, and then you give yourself some grace, because obviously, you know why you felt the way you did, because you went through this horrible tragedy of losing a parent. But I. I'm excited for you, for time to pass, for you to be like, that was. I was. I was. I was so down bad that I called into a podcast to get backed with a guy that, honestly, I don't even remember what the. I liked. I don't. I worked with him. I guess it was. He was there. He was hot, you know? Now, the work part, I mean, obviously that sucks, right? Like, you're. You're around them, and you do get excitement, I think, when you're going to work and you're feeling these feelings. Don't. Don't do the. I just don't know why I feel the way I do, you know, such a mystery. It's like, not, you know, why. Right. Like, it's. He's hot, you know, like, he's. There's some aspects that he has that you're, like, totally into, you know, and then your ego's probably activated. For all of us who have been rejected by people who are wronged by people, there's this up part of. About us that wants to, like, let these people in so that we can prove that they regret it or that they're wrong or that they fudged up or things like that. And that, you know, we. We deserve for them to treat us better without any signs that they're going to do that. We will open ourselves up to them. Our egos will say, don't worry, it's fine. You're good enough. They regret it. They're sorry. We open ourselves up for them, only for them to do it again.

Lucy (50:09)

Yeah, and I don't want to open myself up for him to do it again. But like you said, acknowledge those feelings, that they're there and that I miss him.

Nick (50:19)

I think that's okay to say. Right? Like, I, you know, like, the thing that gets you in trouble is to be like, I just don't know why I feel this way. I do. And I have to. Can. I have to figure it out. And then you're like, well, because I feel this about him, and he's great, and it's like, you know, honestly, he just broke my heart. What's the big deal? He lied to me. It's not what's the big deal. I don't think he'll ever really be that sorry about it. I don't even know if he really regrets what he did, but I'll forgive him. You know, like, his narrative is probably like, I. I needed it. I, you know, I. I needed to do this to figure out how much I cared about you or something. I don't know what he's. Listen, you're only. You're going through a lot right now. I. This is not the time for you to be making reckless decisions. I think this is the time to, in my humble opinion, to connect with that great group of friends you say you have and stop saying things like, he was my best friend to yourself and, And, And. And discount those meaningful friendships you do have. No Doubt. He presented moments of the type of partner that you hope to have someday in terms of what you guys were able to share and how charming he was at the. In those times. But those are moments, you know, and those need to be replicated over and over and over for that emotional connection to be something that you can truly trust and feel safe around. Yeah.

Jen (51:38)

That.

Lucy (51:38)

I think that's incredibly helpful, especially when you say, like, to stop calling him my best friend, because you're right. He's not my best friend. My best friend I saw yesterday and is actually supportive and there in my life.

Nick (51:49)

There you go. That sounds like a best friend.

Rachel (51:51)

Yes.

Lucy (51:51)

Okay.

Rachel (51:52)

Yeah.

Lucy (51:52)

It's kind of flipping the script in your mind.

Nick (51:55)

Yeah. Listen, it's. It's so easy in. With what you're going through to. Yeah. Just to get lost in the sauce of the sadness that you're feeling and say things to yourself that just aren't true. It's not. He's not your best friend. He's. He's. You're. You're. You're not that old. There. I understand. Dating's hard, but there. There are good options out there. You're just. Listen, you. You don't want. I wouldn't want to be patient if I were you. Right now. You. You are tired of feeling sad, and you want that sadness to go away. I totally get it. But the solution to that sadness is not letting a wolf into your den. Just try to have some companionship.

Rachel (52:30)

Right.

Nick (52:30)

Work through this with your mom, you know, and good things will happen. You know, Mom's gonna be looking out for you. Give her a chance to get settled, so to speak, you know? Yeah.

Lucy (52:44)

That's a good way to think of it. Thank you so much.

Nick (52:47)

My pleasure. So how are we gonna deal with him at work? Before we let you go, I just want to make sure that you can. How often do you really need to see him? Can we avoid them? Can we set some boundaries?

Lucy (52:58)

I could set better boundaries. I have to see him every day, but I could limit the contact, and I should, but I don't, and I haven't been.

Nick (53:06)

Does he flirt with you still? Yes. Well, can you ask him to stop?

Lucy (53:12)

Yes.

Nick (53:14)

I mean, it is. It is unprofessional of him.

Lucy (53:17)

It is.

Nick (53:18)

What you have going for you is. This is a work setting. In the moment, you politely say please, you know, stop treating me like that. I'm your. I'm nothing more than your colleague right now, and I would appreciate you not talking to me like this at work. He'll get super defensive, but that should put him in his place right quick.

Lucy (53:38)

Yes. Yeah, he definitely could put up some boundaries, and that also might help with, like, moving on and forward.

Nick (53:44)

So, yeah, I would. I would, you know, scare him a little bit. Okay.

Rachel (53:48)

Yeah, I like that.

Nick (53:49)

I know this doesn't make you comfortable. It's very uncomfortable the way you are treating me right now here at work, and I don't appreciate it. We're nothing more than colleagues right now, and it's. Stop.

Lucy (54:00)

Yeah, I. I think that is something I'll definitely do to. To limit and take it back fully.

Nick (54:06)

All right. And just remind yourself, like, you. You know, it is okay to acknowledge that this toxic person turns you on a little bit. And it's okay because just don't forget that they're toxic. Don't forget that they're not right for you. And, like, yeah, the whole, like, they're my friend. They're my best friend. I've never felt like this, like, with anyone else. None of those things are true. You have the hots for him. He doesn't appreciate you. And this is this really bad timing. And that bad timing is just making you, you know, a little. Just emotionally exhausted. It's allowing you to not be honest with yourself about who this guy really is for you.

Lucy (54:41)

That's right. Thank you so much.

Nick (54:43)

All right, well, sorry you're going through this. You're better than him. Happy holidays. It just really, like, embrace your friends. Really allow your friends to be there and just go out and just have some fun with your friends. And you are, you know, you got. You still have time. Don't you have plenty of time? You're gonna be.

Rachel (55:04)

I hope so.

Nick (55:05)

You do.

Lucy (55:06)

Okay.

Nick (55:07)

I promise.

Rachel (55:07)

Yeah.

Lucy (55:08)

I appreciate that. And your advice is. It's very insightful. It's always nice to hear from a third party looking in, so I appreciate it.

Nick (55:17)

Well, take care. Give yourself some grace. Okay.

Jen (55:20)

Bye.

Nick (55:20)

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Jen (58:52)

Hi, Nick. How are you?

Nick (58:53)

Good. What's your name?

Jen (58:54)

My name is Jen and I'm 38 years old.

Nick (58:56)

How can I help?

Jen (58:57)

Jen, my question for you is, am I compromising too much in my relationship?

Nick (59:03)

Okay, well, let's talk about your relationship.

Jen (59:05)

Sure. So we've been together for five years. And in the beginning it was like very. We. We did move in a little bit quickly, like six months, but he was like, very affectionate. Very different from now, I should say. And some things, some major things have changed from then. Like we had had some conversations in the beginning about having kids and things like that. And at the time we were on the same page and now we're not.

Nick (59:36)

Who doesn't want to have kids anymore?

Jen (59:38)

He doesn't.

Nick (59:39)

Okay, how long ago did that change? Maybe about two years in or two years ago?

Jen (59:47)

Two years ago. Okay, so like already three years in and you know, there had been like multiple conversations about that.

Nick (59:54)

He was like, I just don't have kids anymore.

Jen (59:56)

Yeah. Like, you know, I've been thinking about it and I really. I don't think that's what I want.

Nick (60:01)

And what's your stance on that?

Jen (60:05)

I was like, devastated at the time. Like, oh, good to know. Now when I moved, I had an awesome apartment. Like, so I was very upset and. But at the time, I wasn't really in a place where it was something that could happen right then. And I think I was like 36 at the time anyway, so it was like. I guess that's part of the problem now too is kind of thinking, like, is it a compromise at all if. I'm not even sure now, like, if that would be a good idea for me? Thinking about. Yeah. Like. Cause I mean, based on age.

Nick (60:39)

I mean, not a doctor, obviously, but like.

Jen (60:42)

Right.

Nick (60:43)

I understand that, you know, it's not impossible. I Don't think you listen. I don't know what. You know, listen. I. You know, I know firsthand this year how. How difficult it can be to have kids if you want to have kids. But your boyfriend randomly changing his mind that he doesn't want to have kids shouldn't necessarily change your dreams for yourself. It's a shame that obviously he said this when he did and not ideal regardless. But it's bummed that then you were able to almost kind of convince yourself that maybe it's not in the cards for you or. Well, I guess I'm already 36.

Jen (61:22)

Right. And that is kind of what happened. I had been in a really bad marriage prior to. So I kind of was already, like, under the impression that, you know, maybe that wasn't something I even wanted to think about, you know, so that I could, like, get out a little bit easier and not have that as, like, an additional thing going on.

Nick (61:46)

What do you. I guess, what do you mean with the first. With your marriage.

Jen (61:50)

Right. You know, that just makes everything a little bit more complicated when you are splitting, of course, kids, you know, now we have no contact at all. And it's beautiful. So if there were kids, then it wouldn't have been that easy.

Nick (62:02)

Yeah, sure. I guess that is definitely a silver lining, right. For that particular relationship.

Jen (62:10)

Right.

Nick (62:11)

But I guess, you know, hearing you, it's just like, you have found ways to convince yourself and cope that, like, maybe what you want is not necessarily what you should have. What I mean, outside of that, like, I mean, is that the main thing that we were, you know.

Jen (62:25)

But what else was supposed to get married last summer? Like, I bought a dress, like, something like, super low key because, you know, I've already did, like, the.

Nick (62:36)

But you were engaged. You are engaged or were engaged still? Yes, still engaged. So. But you. So he did propose?

Jen (62:43)

Kind of. It was more of like a me saying, like, you know, we're not gonna play house. So it was a. Kind of a result of that.

Nick (62:52)

Okay.

Jen (62:55)

And then planning a wedding, something super small, and then it was just, like, not an option anymore and now not something he even wants to do.

Nick (63:06)

So he doesn't want to get married. He doesn't want to have kids. So.

Jen (63:09)

Right. So I'm like, wondering if his feelings towards me have changed. He says no. Like, those are just things that, like, he never really was set on. And he thinks, like, I don't know, he doesn't really understand the point of marriage. I. That's what I was. That's what I said. He says it's more of like, you know, you grow up and you kind of figure out more like who you are and how you feel about certain things. And he's, he's younger than me. Like he's only 31 right now.

Nick (63:40)

You're old?

Jen (63:41)

38.

Nick (63:46)

Okay. Yeah. Why are you still with him?

Jen (63:50)

So my last relationship was like really traumatic. I didn't find out some crazy things until a few months after we got married. Like, basically he was not the person I thought that he was at all. Like, told me he was playing a character from tv, so that's terrifying.

Nick (64:12)

Like he said he was a TV star?

Jen (64:14)

No, he's. I was like, you know, basically like, why, why have you been acting this way? And he said like he studied people and husbands on TV and that's why he acts the way that he does. Like he learned a role.

Nick (64:30)

Oh, okay.

Jen (64:31)

Weird.

Nick (64:31)

Yeah. And then how long were you single before you met this next guy?

Jen (64:35)

Maybe like a year and a half.

Nick (64:37)

Okay.

Jen (64:38)

The dating world was a little bit scary out there.

Nick (64:41)

Sure.

Jen (64:41)

Like nothing good is still out there. The few good things about like my current situation, like I trust him 100%, like very loyal. He, when we met, he already had his own house at, you know, 26, like hard working and at the time was very affectionate. He has really good boundaries with like friends and family and I respect that. So a lot of positives but you know, the slow chain. I get that the honeymoon period ends, but it just feels like it's very drastic.

Nick (65:18)

What's drastic?

Jen (65:19)

The change in like, you know, being affectionate towards me and like compliments and you know, physical.

Nick (65:25)

So he's less affectionate. Compliments you less. You're having less sex. He doesn't want to have kids anymore. He said he was going to get married to you. He doesn't want to get married now know.

Jen (65:34)

Well, hearing you say it all at once is kind of. Yeah.

Nick (65:38)

I mean, listen, your age gap, whatever, you know, you're to your point. Like he, you, he was an adult when you met him, he's an adult now. You know, he presented as kind of this mature 26 year old. Now he's 31, you know, I guess, I guess it just is what it is. Yeah. His age I guess is mostly irrelevant, but other than the fact that like, I mean, it's more.

Jen (66:02)

I should also add in that I'm not an easy person to date. Like I have adhd, so possibly some like mental health, like bipolar runs in my family, so I don't know, it's hard to tell like, what's adhd? What could be like more of like a mental health?

Nick (66:19)

Have you seen a doctor for this stuff?

Jen (66:21)

Yeah, I kept. Been in therapy for years, so I don't really have like the clear episodes that other people have.

Nick (66:30)

So I guess, why you? I mean, like, listen, no one's easy to date. I'm not easy to date. You know, like, I don't know. I don't know. Like, like we're all like, is this coming from you or is this coming from him?

Jen (66:40)

I mean, I feel this way. And also pretty much like everyone I've been with, like, says I could be like, scary scary. I mean, just like, like I have very high expectations and, you know, I. I don't really know how to describe it. I can be intimidating, I guess.

Nick (66:56)

I've only talked to you for 10 minutes. You don't seem all that intimidating to me. You seem lovely, but I don't know you meant like, you do. Do you have like a really bad temper or do you like, have you been. You've been reactive? Are you violent at all? Like, are you emotionally aggressive?

Jen (67:16)

So violent currently, like, in this relationship? No, that's like, that's now my tell of like, this is never gonna work. Like, if I cross that line personally. It does take a lot of restraint in a situation where there's an argument to like, okay, calm down, there are, there's boundaries.

Nick (67:38)

So what had he done in the past?

Jen (67:41)

I mean, just like, like pushing, punching, throwing things, Punching him? Not, not the person I'm dating now. I've never hit him or anything that's like physically intimidating at all?

Nick (67:54)

Well, I mean, like, the, the doing that in the past, how do you reflect on that? Is that something where you were like, I didn't feel it in control of my body. I may have bipolar syndrome or it's just like, yeah, I have a really bad temper. I need to check myself and that's never acceptable. And like, you know, I need to find more productive ways and healthier ways to express my angers and frustrations.

Jen (68:19)

A little bit of both. Like, kind of realizing like when stepping away, because I'm like a fixer, like, if something's wrong, I want to fix it now. Like, sit down, fix it. But then at the same time it's like, we're not going to fix it right now. Like, nobody's in the state of mind right at this second to get to that point. So like maybe taking five or ten, right?

Nick (68:39)

I mean, so what, I mean, in terms of your self diagnosis of wondering if, like, what have you done about that to get some clarity on that?

Jen (68:46)

I mean, I'm on medication for adhd.

Nick (68:49)

Okay. Have you been diagnosed as bipolar? Have you had discussions with your physicians about the possibility of you being bipolar, like, outside, you know, Because a lot of people are ADHD and on medication.

Jen (69:03)

I mean, I have been diagnosed officially with, like, depression and anxiety disorders. I don't really have the. Well, the. It's hard to tell, like, what's mania and what's, like, adhd, so they haven't really been able to, like, say for sure. Bipolar.

Nick (69:22)

And what do you mean by mania?

Jen (69:23)

So kind of like. Like, for example, like, one of my family members will go through the state where all of a sudden, like, they're buying everything on Amazon and, like, weird things like antique dresses.

Nick (69:36)

Have you ever done something like that?

Jen (69:38)

Not really, no.

Nick (69:39)

What do you mean by not really?

Jen (69:42)

I mean, I have hobbies and things, but, like, I never just go through these phases where, like, I suddenly get caught up in something that turns out to not really be something I like.

Nick (69:52)

Yeah. So you. You've never been manic?

Jen (69:55)

I don't think so. I just constantly have, like, a high level of energy. Like, I'm. If I'm watching a movie. I'm also, like, painting and doing a puzzle.

Nick (70:03)

Love that. Productive.

Jen (70:05)

And painting my nails all at the same time. Like, all those things are always happening.

Nick (70:09)

Okay, so you're a little quirky. I don't know. I. I'm just trying to figure out, like, I. I don't know. Like, are you. Is it again, is this coming from your partner making you kind of, like, reminding you of your flaws, and then therefore, you. You feel that. Are you.

Jen (70:21)

Anytime that I try to, like, sit down and have a conversation, like. Like, hey, you know, you haven't really been very affectionate lately. Like, it's making me feel this way. Every time I approach a conversation that way, it ends in hearing about all the things about me that are negative.

Nick (70:40)

Okay.

Jen (70:41)

Like, we can't handle any type of. If it feels like criticism, it's. It is met with anger.

Nick (70:51)

Not great.

Jen (70:52)

Right? Right.

Nick (70:54)

Yeah. Listen, like, I don't, you know, whatever. Whatever. Whatever you got going on. Right? Whatever it is. Adhd, bipolar, you know, I don't know. Whatever you got going on, you still deserve to be happy. You. You deserve, if you're in a relationship, to be treated with respect. If you want to get married and have kids, you deserve to have that in your life. You know, you can over. We can all overcome our flaws and our shortcomings. I mean, it's certainly up to us to always challenge ourselves to be better people and hold ourselves accountable. But, yeah, like, your flaws seem to be weaponized against you. You know, when in this particular relationship. And I get, you know, if maybe his feelings changed about what he wanted, but, like, then you have the right to have your feelings change. And instead of trying to convince yourself that you don't want something you want or that you don't deserve what you want, you know, then I don't think that's fair for you or.

Jen (71:59)

Okay, I am kind of on the fence. I. I am an educator.

Nick (72:03)

Okay.

Jen (72:04)

Of tiny humans. So after, like, a full day of that, there's times where it's like, if. If anyone spoke to me right now and, like, made a request of me, like, I. I'm done for the day. When I was working with older kids, I didn't really feel that way. But now with younger kids, it's. It's exhausting. Really, really exhausting.

Nick (72:26)

Yeah, I. Listen, I'm not here to convince you to have kids or not have kids. I do think, you know, your own kids, you'll feel differently than, say, you know, kids. You're. That aren't your kids, that you're teaching for a job, you know, you'll probably feel different. Natalie loves river in ways I can't describe. And as. As river, who's constantly. Mom, mom, like, Natalie has her breaking point, you know, like, sometimes she just needs a step back and she gets almost like sensory overload, you know, and mom needs a break, and that's okay, you know, like, that. That's gonna happen, you know?

Jen (73:00)

Sure.

Nick (73:01)

So. Yeah, but listen, like, you're just almost like, talking yourself out of something. And listen, if you don't have kids, don't have kids. I don't want you to see you settle for a relationship that doesn't seem to be going in the right direction and allowing someone who. Who. Who changed their mind about kids make you change yours. Only, like, fast forward five years from now, or maybe it is too late, and you really feel like you didn't have what you want, you know, in life.

Jen (73:29)

Right. That's my thing, too, is, like, getting back out there. Like, what? You know, there would have to be, like, an acceptable period of time that I was single.

Nick (73:39)

What do you mean?

Jen (73:39)

And then, I mean, like, if. If I left this situation.

Nick (73:43)

Yeah.

Jen (73:44)

And then, you know, you meet someone new. It's like, by the time.

Nick (73:48)

Well, he doesn't want to have kids now, so.

Jen (73:51)

Right. So I just feel like by the time Like, I found someone, if I ever found someone that I wanted to like, have kids with, it would be so be like 40 something, maybe. No offense. No offense, by the way.

Nick (74:06)

Well, none taken. Don't worry. We're in two different shoes. But yeah, well, listen, my mom had a kid at 47. I don't, you know, again, I'm not a medical professional. I don't know, you know, you know, science has never been more, more, more impressive in terms of what people have been able to accomplish. I can't predict the future, but I just think the way you're going about decisions isn't necessarily product. You're like, it's just been reacting, you know, and you know, like, you're always kind of like, it's always this too late mindset rather than it's never too late whatever it is you're going to do. You're right. You could break up with someone. Dating's hard. Dating's difficult. You know, you would probably date a lot of frogs before you met a prince, so to speak. Maybe you're right. Maybe it would take you a couple of years to find that person, then in a couple more years to be in a place where you two would want to have kids. My point being is, you know, him changing his mind about marriage and kids is, like, not the only problem in this relationship. The way you describe it, it seems to be in line with like, like, and it's just an overall like, change in who he is. You also suspect that maybe he feels differently about you. He's like, no, no, no. You know, I don't know, maybe, you know, he certainly has gotten comfortable to the point where, like, he's not, like, he's not like, talk. What is he building with you?

Jen (75:16)

That was my question. Like, what's our goals together?

Nick (75:22)

Yeah, for fun. He doesn't want to get married. Okay, cool. Right, Right. Fine. Maybe it's an outdated ceremony. He doesn't have kids. Fair enough. But like, what? Yeah, what is the point of you guys being together for how long? Forever. For not forever. Is he looking for a ten year thing you, marriage or not, are looking for? It sounds like a life partner. And you very much are open and, and want. In fact, if, you know, if you got to pick, you would, you know, knowing that it could be a challenge, knowing there might be days after work where you're just like, oh my God, like, you know, knowing it won't be easy that you want to have kids. Like, what are you guys doing together? Where's this relationship going other than like, this is what you guys are. And he's content with it as a 31 year old who, who, who, who isn't stressed about kids, period. And even if he changes his mind, he's got like 30 years, you know, as a guy, you know, give or take maybe more, you know, he's also not that interested. It doesn't sound like him. Like, you know, when was the last time he's like, hey, what do you, Every once in a while I'll joke with Natalie, like, do you like your life? You know?

Jen (76:30)

Yeah.

Nick (76:30)

Are you getting out? What you want to get out of it? You know, are you meeting your goals? Like, I've never asked for. She's meeting goals. But like, I, yeah, I, I, I, I do check in with my wife about, I don't just assume being my wife and being a mom is enough for her, you know, I'm curious about what her passions are. I'm curious about what she wants for herself. I want to make sure that I, to make that happen for her. I want to see her grow as a person, you know, I hope she's, you know, I feel that, that she wants that for me. But. When was the last time you felt that from him?

Jen (77:03)

Well, he is a bit selfish.

Nick (77:07)

Yeah. Figure that out.

Jen (77:10)

And so, you know, I, I've done hours and hours of couples therapy from the past. So, you know, like the whole Gottman, you know, love maps and keeping in touch with your partner and knowing them at that current moment, which is always changing. Like you mentioned, there's times where, like, he will do that, but it's never something like, he's excited to do.

Nick (77:37)

Give me an example.

Jen (77:39)

Like, we have a hot tub. So we'll, like, sit there and, you know, I have like, the app on my phone, so we'll do, like, with random questions, you know, like, what's something that, you know, scares you about your future? Things like that. Okay. And like, sometimes, like, he'll do it, but it's definitely not.

Nick (77:55)

Do what?

Jen (77:57)

Going, like, answering the questions. Yeah.

Nick (77:59)

So, but you're bringing it up. You're like, let's play a game.

Jen (78:04)

Yeah.

Nick (78:04)

And he's like, fine. Yeah. That's not what I'm talking about. How are you guys a team?

Jen (78:10)

Good question. I don't know how to answer that at the moment.

Nick (78:17)

It's okay to admit. Yeah. What are you like, other than like, some comfort and just the fact that you have somebody? What are you getting out of this relationship?

Jen (78:28)

Safety from? Well, from finding out, like, my life is upside down. The so delusion My past really, like, it was really bad. It was really bad. Like, he was doing things that could put him on, like, the sex offender list. And I'm an ex husband. Yes.

Nick (78:49)

Well, what is it? But you're out of that relationship, right?

Jen (78:51)

So, like, just having that, like, safety and peace of mind now is huge.

Nick (78:57)

That you're not. That you're no longer with a psychopath?

Jen (79:01)

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

Nick (79:03)

Listen, I'm sure that was very scary, but I want you to want. It's like you're really settling if the baseline is not psychopath.

Jen (79:15)

Right. I mean, we do have fun together. Like, we have similar interests, hobbies, we have our little dog family.

Nick (79:23)

But you could be alone and not be with a psychopath, right?

Jen (79:26)

Pretty much.

Nick (79:27)

I know you don't want.

Jen (79:28)

That's something that scares me, though, being alone. Yeah. I have a really hard time with that.

Nick (79:33)

What's your friend situation like?

Jen (79:35)

They're all like, married off, have kids.

Nick (79:37)

But you have them friends?

Jen (79:39)

Yeah.

Nick (79:39)

Yeah. You ever. What about other. Just like, what are. What are other meaningful relationships do you have in your life outside of romantic?

Jen (79:46)

Like, my parents really close with my cousin.

Nick (79:49)

So you're not alone?

Jen (79:50)

No, but, like, everybody's busy. Like, if I wanted to, like, go out and do something.

Nick (79:55)

Yeah.

Jen (79:56)

Like, the odds of somebody else agreeing to do that, it would have to be planned, like, weeks in advance.

Rachel (80:02)

Sure.

Nick (80:03)

Do you. You live in a small town, big.

Jen (80:04)

Town, city, like suburbs.

Nick (80:08)

Okay. You're a teacher, you're an educator.

Jen (80:11)

Yes.

Nick (80:12)

There's no other single men or women that you're friendly with that who are single, that, like, let's say you became single that would want to, like, go out, have some fun?

Jen (80:24)

Not really. It's very odd. Like, so different from, say, like 10 years ago, the boat that I was in, like, everybody wants to go out, and now it's, like, just silent out there.

Nick (80:36)

Yeah, well, everyone's on their phones. I. I listen. I guess the, the picture you're painting, you're not selling me on why this relationship's serving you or what you're getting out of it. You know, it's like, all right, well, fine, you're not going to get married, you're not going to have kids, but at least you have someone who really believes in you and really motivates you to be your best, you know, like, that's not like, that's happening. You don't feel loved on a regular basis or really feel like this person chooses you every day. It's kind of like he's. He's Comfortable with you, he's settled into a relationship with you and you feel like if you didn't like challenge him or bug him or nitpick or whatever, you would just like, I don't know, feel like you're, you have a roommate.

Jen (81:24)

In all fairness, maybe I'm not like highlighting some of his like, better features. I did at one point lose my job and I was like, you know, maybe this career is not for me, I should look into other things. And. And he was like, really supportive and you know, took on most of the bills and things while I was sorting that out. Really encouraged me to, to keep pursuing, staying in this field. And now I love where I am, okay? Job, security, all that. So, you know, had he not been there saying, you know, I think you are actually really good at this. Like, kids find you years later and tell you how important you were to them. Like, don't give up on that. So maybe I'm not giving him like all the credit that he deserves necessarily.

Nick (82:09)

That's nice to do that. Yeah.

Jen (82:12)

And in the moments when we're fighting, I'm like, do you like me? And it's like, like, of course I do. And I think maybe it's like a personality thing. Like to him it's more of, you know, you shouldn't have to say it. It's just like, you know, it.

Nick (82:24)

What do you mean? I don't know. Not if, I mean, if your love language is like words of affirmation, you would be someone who from time to time wants to hear I love you or I really care about you, you or thinking about you today or. Yeah, like, right. I don't know. I mean. And listen, maybe he's just an immature 31 year old guy.

Jen (82:43)

I think a little, a little bit of that, like emotionally immature. This is only really this. Well, this is really the first relationship where he's like lived with somebody and others were like very immature relationships.

Nick (82:56)

Well, I guess. What were you hoping to leave this call with?

Jen (83:00)

Um, just like, at what point is it too much that, that I'm like giving up?

Nick (83:08)

Well, I guess the question is, what are you giving up if you were to choose to move on with this relationship?

Jen (83:14)

Maybe, maybe the kids. I guess marriage is like, whatever.

Nick (83:17)

How? Well, I don't know. What do you mean? Maybe the kids. You'd be gaining that, right?

Jen (83:22)

But I go back and forth. Like I really am not sure at this moment. Like sometimes I see my friends with their kids, like they bring them over and it's like, causes me so much anxiety.

Nick (83:33)

I Hate other people's kids.

Jen (83:37)

Right, right.

Nick (83:40)

You know, and their dogs. But I'm a lot obsessed with my dogs and my kid. You know, I. Listen, I. Maybe you don't want kids, but my point is, is he doesn't want to have kids. He doesn't sound on the fence about that. You seem to accept that he doesn't want to have kids. You're not like one of these people who's like, well, maybe he'll change his mind. If anything, he's just changed your mind. So breaking up with him, I don't know what you're gaining in that department other than I don't know what you're losing. You know, with or without him, you could still not have kids with him. You're definitely not having kids without him. Who knows? You might, like you said, be like, I know what. It's not in the cars for me. I don't want to have kids. But. But you could meet someone who's like, I very much still want to have kids. And I know you're, you know, 40, and you're like, well, you know, maybe my biological clock is, you know, but if. If all things being equal, I'd like to try and, you know, thank God for. For science and. And, you know, maybe we'll try and maybe you'll meet someone who's like, listen, I love you no matter what, and I've always been open to have kids, but I'd like to try with you. And if not, you know, I still want to be with you, and I love you, but, like, let's, you know, let's chase this dream that, you know, so I don't know if you're. You wouldn't be losing anything on the kids department by ending this relationship. You wouldn't be losing marriage. You know, in a sense, he doesn't want to get married. I don't know. You know, but, like, so what would you be losing? Maybe some. A little bit of support in his belief in yourself as an educator, which is nice, but I. I bet there's other people who feel that way about you.

Jen (85:11)

And he. He does kind of do all the cooking and things like that. Like, before we met, I was, like, not having healthy sleep schedules, eating lunchables, so he's, you know, unhealthy things. So kind of got me acting like my own age, I guess so. That's. That's nice. Yeah.

Nick (85:34)

I mean, don't get me wrong. I mean, if I. If I broke up with Natalie, I bet she'd miss some of my cooking.

Jen (85:39)

It's true. I'm not. That is not my strength.

Nick (85:42)

Okay. Okay. So you'd miss his cooking.

Jen (85:45)

Yeah.

Nick (85:45)

What else?

Jen (85:46)

And, like. And we are really good friends. Like, I guess I haven't really accentuated on that part.

Nick (85:50)

Yeah. But you have other friends, correct?

Jen (85:52)

Right.

Nick (85:53)

You have good friends outside of him?

Jen (85:55)

I have, like, a lot of trust issues with everybody.

Nick (85:59)

Do you have any trust issues with him?

Jen (86:01)

Him? No.

Nick (86:02)

Okay, well, that's valuable.

Jen (86:03)

Which is. Yeah, and that's so rare for me. Like, the. The thought of, like, going on dates. Like, he even said that I used to make comments to him, like, what's wrong with you? Like, I can't figure out what's wrong with you. And I was looking for it, and now we found it. But, you know, he said, like, he felt, like, a lot of pressure when we met, that, like, I was always looking for that thing. That was wrong.

Nick (86:26)

Yeah.

Jen (86:26)

I mean, because I have, like, serious ptsd. Like, I was actually formally diagnosed with that as well.

Nick (86:34)

Well, I mean, it sounds like you dated a psychopath. Yeah, that'd be probably pretty damaging. I would. And did you do, like, some specific work to heal from that experience?

Jen (86:44)

Oh, yeah.

Nick (86:45)

Okay, good.

Jen (86:46)

So much money in therapy happened. Yeah. And it was really hard. Like, I feel, like, the most lost. Like, when you just feel that everything was fake.

Nick (87:00)

Yeah.

Jen (87:00)

Kind of like the Truman Show. Like, I feel like I was on the Truman show and everything around me was just, like, not real.

Nick (87:07)

Listen, I guess I. I just. You're only 38, and I just want you to want. I just want you to believe that, like, you. You have a lot of life left, and you deserve whatever it is that you want. And. And you will be the reason that that happens or doesn't happen. You will be the biggest contributor in terms of your life playing out the way you hope it does. Obviously, as you know, you can make some choices and you can bring some nasty people into your life. You have survived the worst of it, maybe. Hopefully. Right. I mean, you. You. You survive something that most people luck. Are lucky enough to never experience. So, you know, there's some. There's a resilience there. I want you to find ways to pat yourself on the back and give you the credit you deserve. Yeah. Listen, you're gonna have to hold yourself to a higher standard in some aspects of your life. You know, maybe it's just taking better care of yourself. I like cooking, but honestly, cooking is a lot easier than people realize. Prep time to preparation. You know, it's just, like, the key to cooking. If you Want to, if you care, is getting all your ingredients prepped before you start cooking and understand how long things take to cook, you know, and, and don't start cooking before things are prepped. That's just really the key. That's it. And then follow the instructions. It's pretty easy from there. But all jokes aside, but yeah, you got doordash people, you know, you don't need to be. You don't have to cook to eat relatively healthy. There are some options out there. But I think you just kind of, the way you talk, you just kind of accept, like you're just, you're very comfortable with ordinary. And you act like you don't deserve more. And you seem to be really good at convincing yourself of the dreams that you have that you, you maybe don't want. You know, you're like, I don't know if I want kids. And again, that's totally fine if you don't want kids. But like, you, you were, you, you've said that you've been somebody who really wants to have kids in the past. And then you're comparing, like, people you're t. Like a job or friends, kids as to, like, how you, how you're going to feel about maybe having your own kids. Someday, I promise you, you will feel different.

Jen (89:06)

I mean, just the way I am with my dogs. I know that it would be different. I don't always like other people's dogs. I mean, I love dogs, but, you know, I'm not going to let them.

Nick (89:16)

I don't even love dogs. Certainly not other people's dogs. I'm obsessed with mine.

Jen (89:20)

Right.

Nick (89:21)

You know, I just.

Jen (89:22)

Right.

Nick (89:22)

So I just, I, I just think you, you, you deserve the world. Whatever you want, you deserve. And I think you should go about life not settling and not accepting, like, this kind of slow death.

Jen (89:38)

It just, it wasn't like this always. Like when we met, actually, I had plans to move to another country. I was like, in the process of that and I didn't go, end up staying okay. Because I felt so strongly, you know, about our connection and, and everything. So at one point it was a lot more, I guess I think we're very, like, comfortable now.

Nick (90:04)

I mean, listen, relationships always.

Jen (90:07)

How do you get back to that? Like, is there a way to get.

Nick (90:09)

Back to that for yourself or with him?

Jen (90:13)

Like together? I guess.

Nick (90:16)

Is there a way? Sure. But I think it takes two. It takes two people who want to do that. The problem is, like, in this particular problem, your biggest problem isn't like, the fact that you guys are a bit disconnected, but ultimately still want the same things. You're disconnected. Part of the reason you're disconnected is because all of a sudden he doesn't want the same things as he claimed he wanted. And maybe a little bit of that is he said what he thought he had to say. Or maybe he just assumed, you know, at 26, also things could still change for him because he is only 31. I don't know.

Jen (90:49)

Right.

Nick (90:51)

But yeah, I mean, it's. In your. Your situation sounds tougher because there's a disconnect. In addition to that, you know, he. You don't. You're not really on the same page with what you want for yourself.

Jen (91:03)

It's weird because, like, when. In the beginning, when, you know, he was more, like, affectionate and. And, you know, verbally, like you said, like, words of affirmation, like saying nice things on a regular basis, I felt more, like, fulfilled, sure. Than I do now. So, like, at one point, it kind of was enough that I wasn't really thinking and looking for the things that are lacking.

Nick (91:27)

Was he already less affectionate about kids? When we changed his mind about kids, was he already less affectionate? I mean, I don't, like, I'm sure, like, in the first year of your relationship, honeymoon, whatever, he's super excited. You feel that thrill. It tends to be enough. It tends to be more than enough. It masks problems. It makes you not want to chase certain dreams, like moving to a different country. You know, you're so excited about someone that it's just overwhelmingly fun and positive. But things change. You. People get comfortable, they settle into relationships. But again, like, it's tough for you because, again, what. What is the point of you guys being together going forward? Like, what?

Jen (92:05)

I mean, I. I think I could happily live without kids. I think so.

Nick (92:11)

You. But you don't know. I just don't want you to convince yourself you don't want to have kids. Like, you just, like, I don't know. Yeah, maybe. You don't. I don't. You know, we can certainly sit here and talk about the downside of kids. Expensive. Kind of a pain in the ass, really. Take your freedoms away, you know? Yeah, it's not that. It's not that hard to figure out some negatives of bringing, you know, having kids. But listen, if you were just like, listen, man, I'm a super independent person. I'm very career focused. I want to travel. I like my independence. In fact, I don't even even like having a boyfriend around most of the time, But I do like, having someone that I can rely on. And I, I really. As far as my Roman romantic life goes, I'm kind of mostly looking for a friend and then, like, someone to have some occasional sex with. But that's all I really need from a relationship. If you're that person, great. That this. This relationship seems like it could potentially serve that. But if you're someone who, like, wants something more meaningful, I really want to, like, connect with someone. I really want to feel like we become almost one. I want to be on the same page. I really want to be vulnerable with someone. I want us to take care of each other. I want us to maybe have a family together. I want a lifelong commitment. I want to feel like we grow into something and again, like, you know, this guy's not giving that that, you know, and you have the right to want something more from a relationship and not have it just be kind of almost this casual companionship that's kind of like, you know, there's the, you know, it's like when the world ends, there's who I call. It's just like, you know, that, you know, it's like your current boyfriend kind of sounds like the person you made that like, hey, if we don't have kids by the time we're 40, I guess let's just get married and, like, we'll cope, we'll procreate. Because it's like, we trust each other. There's just some mutual respect there. We're friends. I trust you, and honestly, that's good enough for me, you know, but deep down, I sense that you want more for yourself, especially when it comes to your romantic life. And you, it sounds like you have convinced yourself of dreams that you dupe down. You want into things that maybe you don't want out of fear of being alone and not wanting to waste what has been a five years of, like, an okay relationship, certainly better than the psychopath he used to be married to. And you are trying to convince yourself that this is totally fine. And the fear of the unknown is a little scarier than this totally fine relationship. But it is a relationship that has made you convince yourself of things that you're still not sure you don't want, but you've gotten good at being like, well, maybe I don't want it.

Jen (94:34)

Yeah. I think the scariest part is getting out there again. There's horror stories.

Nick (94:42)

Yeah, there's a lot of bad people. I mean, there's like. There's a bad mat. More bad, bad matches. You know, you found love before you'll find love again. What I want for you is, like, if you go out there, I just want you to be more sure of yourself and more certain. Certain about what you want. So that when you do run into the wrong person, you can sniff it out quicker. That you have the boundaries that you know you need for yourself. So that when someone asks you to do something you're not comfortable with, your body will speak to you and say, no, no, I'm not. That it doesn't feel right. I don't want that. That you can be more discerning when you meet people, you know, because you're right. You're, you know, you're. You know, if you go on 10 dates, assume at least nine of them are not going to be the ones for you. And in those 10 dates, you might have a couple really bad ones and then mostly a bunch of just like, meh ones. Then you might have a couple that you really like that they don't like you. I mean. Yeah. And then, you know, if you're lucky, you meet someone where it's mutual. Dating is hard, don't get me wrong. But, like, the way you're talking, it's just like, well, dating's scary. So, you know, I'm just gonna accept this for the rest of my life, even though I have six, you know, 50 years left.

Jen (95:51)

Yeah, I. When you say it like that, it does sound kind of silly. It's just. It really is scary because it's not only one relationship I've been in where person turned out to not be trustworthy and great and I never find out, like, right away. It's like months go by or a year goes by.

Nick (96:11)

Listen, you know, the love of your life is going to break your heart, even if you, you know, and I don't mean like, he's going to break your heart because you know he's going to leave you. But, like, they're going to do something that hurts you. They might lie to you. You know, you might be able to work through it. I don't know, you know, like. But the love of your life is going to hurt you. You know, that's what happens in love. You know, you sometimes hurt each other and then you have to recognize it. You got to move on. You have to be apologize. You have to hopefully get through it. You. It really is about. To me, a relationship has been about finding someone who consistently chooses me, and I choose them. And I'm in a relationship now with someone who I feel like really wants to be happy with me. And is willing to put into work to do that. And there are, like, every relationship, there are always bumps in the road, but it's not hard for the most part for us to get back to a place of happiness and that we choose each other and we're both willing to put in the work.

Jen (97:04)

Work.

Nick (97:04)

And I don't have to convince her to put in the work, and she doesn't have to convince me to put in the work that. That is, you know, and we have big dreams that we share with each other, and we have. We're on the same page for what we want for ourselves and that. And we feel like we can build a really happy life together. And. And together we've been able to accomplish a lot. And I know I'm. You know, I'm. I've been able to accomplish so much more as a part of her life. I hope. You know, I think. Pretty sure she feels the same way about me. And I'm not hearing that from you. I'm hearing like, I gotta, you know, he's nice and, you know, he's around, and he's definitely better than the psychopath I used to date. And I do trust him. And that is nice. And he's a good guy, and, you know, he's. He's nice. It's nice. It's nice.

Jen (97:46)

He's a lot better than I've been, like, painting that to be. I feel like I've been focusing more on the negatives. But I do understand what you're saying.

Nick (97:53)

That, you know, I'm not saying a bad guy. I'm just like, I want you to be. You deserve to have big dreams. And I don't know, you're. You deserve, you know, you deserve to feel excited about your relationship. You deserve to feel lucky to have. Be in this relationship.

Rachel (98:12)

Yeah.

Jen (98:12)

I mean, for the most part, I do.

Nick (98:14)

You keep saying, like, for the most part, I should, you know, listen, I just. Deep down, I. I'm hearing you think you. You could have a happier life.

Jen (98:24)

You're not wrong. We won't argue with you. You're not wrong.

Nick (98:27)

You know, and I think you should do something about it. And that could start with, you know, listen, it could just be like. I'm not saying you break up immediately, but you could be like, listen, I. I want kids. And I know you're not sure if you want to have kids. I think you should listen. The kid part, you keep only that you're just like, I'm not sure if I want to have kids. And maybe I don't Want to have kids. And you always start with maybe, like, again. But what I'm hearing from you, and I could be wrong, is that deep down, if, like, if I'm a genie and I came to you, it's like, all right, all right. I can promise you you can have kids and you can. And overall, I mean, there'll be bumps in the road, but it can be with someone that. I'm gonna give you a. I'm gonna give you a B husband. You know, B minus husband. It's gonna be pretty good. It's definitely above average. Like, take it or leave it. Do you want it? No. I bet you'd say yes.

Jen (99:15)

B minus. A little rough.

Nick (99:18)

Well, you are a teacher. I don't know. But, like, I don't know. Right now your relationship sounds like a C minus, Maybe a D. I would.

Jen (99:24)

Say maybe it's like a C plus. The.

Nick (99:29)

I mean, maybe you're just a generous grader. Maybe you're in a. I'm gonna be a little more harsh.

Jen (99:35)

Sexual trust. Like, to be honest, like, a lot of the issues in relationships have been around, like, pornography and, like, you know, sneakiness around that. And, like, nobody's honest about those things on day one. Like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna. This is what I'm gonna do.

Nick (99:51)

Yeah.

Jen (99:52)

In this case, it's like, I'm the focus of, like, sexual desire, and, like, that's huge to me.

Nick (99:59)

Yeah.

Jen (99:59)

Not, like, looking out and, like, looking into your relationship for that.

Nick (100:03)

But you also mentioned that, like, you feel less desired by him.

Jen (100:06)

I mean, I. I think that's kind of normal as time goes on. Like, you know, you're obviously not going to be, like, having sex every day for the rest of your life.

Nick (100:15)

No, I get that. Listen, I don't want to discount that sexually, especially since you've been in some bad situations. He makes you feel very safe in the apartment. And especially as a woman, I acknowledge that that is a really, really important thing.

Jen (100:26)

And we do, like, on a weekly basis, have sex, so it's not, like, solid solid. It's not like a drought is happening. I might just be a little critical of things, and I don't.

Nick (100:36)

It doesn't. Honestly, in this conversation, it doesn't sound like sex is your big frustration. No, but it's more about.

Jen (100:44)

I think it's like you said, like, words of affirmation, like, hey, you look really pretty today, or just know, like.

Nick (100:49)

Where'S this relationship going?

Jen (100:51)

Right.

Nick (100:51)

There's just no. There's no investment into something more meaningful. So, like. And it's and because he's younger, you know, like, just objectively speaking, if there's. Other than like, there's, it's, it's easier for him to leave. He'll only be 35. Only be 36, five years from now. And you're not married, you don't have kids. Let's say your relationship's not much different than it is today. You know, like, we're. What's. How, what's. What's keeping you guys? I mean, I guess it'd just be love. Sure. I, I, But I just, that's just. I don't know, like that at least, like, maybe it's. What are you guys doing together?

Jen (101:29)

There's. We got to work on a plan for that.

Nick (101:32)

Yeah.

Jen (101:32)

Yeah.

Nick (101:32)

How are you guys connecting? What is, what is making you guys feel invested in the. And I don't think kids and marriage are the only way to do that. I want to be clear. But just dating, you guys are just dating. You're just there.

Jen (101:43)

Yeah.

Nick (101:44)

You know, and every once in a while, you guys offer some emotional support that any other friend could offer.

Jen (101:50)

It's true.

Nick (101:52)

You know.

Jen (101:52)

All right.

Nick (101:53)

And it's just, it's, it's just like, objectively harder to, like, you try. You mentioned trust. You want trust to be in a relationship to like, what, how people need to be invested in things. You need to be. I, you, you called asking if you're settling. Right.

Jen (102:09)

Wasn't that pretty much right?

Nick (102:11)

I think you are. You. You were. Or what was the phrase you use?

Jen (102:14)

You're being too compromising.

Nick (102:15)

Yeah. And I think, Dan, my opinion is you are compromising on what you want for yourself more than you should be. And I, and it sounds like you've had some real tough luck in past relationships. And, and you know, obviously that has an effect on you. And I think that's caused you to, you know, give up on your dreams a little easier. And it's just like. And I, and I, and I get it. Right? Let's just like, you know, you don't want to get greedy. It's like, this is much better than what I had before. I just think you have the right to, to still get what you want out of life and have your dreams come true. And I don't think you should have compromise on some of your non negotiables. And it sounds like maybe you've had to compromise on some of your non negotiables just to have a decent man in your life. And I don't think that's true. I Think there are decent men out there. I think there's plenty of them. A lot of them you may not be interested in, but I think there are a lot of good men out there, and there's a lot of bad ones, too. And now that you're older and you've been through and you've met some of these bad ones, you probably are a little bit more protected to be aware of who. How to identify some of these people and trust yourself a little bit more. But, yeah, I'm not gonna say it's not scary out there in terms of the single life, but I just don't want the fear of. I think I said this before. I don't want good to be. Stop you from getting something great and. Or. Or the fear of the unknown stop you from chasing your dreams if I all. I. Yeah, I'll leave you with this and I get going. But if I had your mindset, I wouldn't be sitting where I'm sitting today, and I wouldn't have my wife and I wouldn't have my daughter.

Jen (103:47)

Right. Oh, you're. You're right, you know. Well, thank you so much.

Nick (103:53)

All right, well, no, my pleasure. I just. I. If I don't want you to. Just don't convince yourself that you don't deserve things that you want is my biggest takeaway.

Jen (104:02)

Okay.

Nick (104:03)

And I think you have the right to say to your boyfriend, I know you said you don't want to have kids, but I still do, and I need to figure that out with you. And I want to get married. And I want something more than just a roommate and a boyfriend and some consistent companionship. I want us to build our connection. And I don't want to be your mom in that department. I don't want to be the one who's solely taking the lead on that. And you are, right now. And I think you have the right to speak up about that.

Jen (104:34)

That. I guess we'll. We'll have to talk again.

Nick (104:37)

All right. We'll. Keep me posted on how things go.

Jen (104:39)

Oh, thank you so much.

Nick (104:41)

All right, my pleasure.

Jen (104:42)

Bye, Nick.

Nick (104:43)

Take care.

Jen (104:43)

You're crazy.