Nick (3:53)

And you found this out, like, basically a few weeks ago?

Jessica (3:56)

Yeah. Yeah. And so a couple of weeks ago, I found it out and, like, he kind of tried to give me his story, and I was like, okay, get out. Leave. I don't want to talk to you. I'm done. And so I was on my, like, healing journey where I'm like, okay, I deserve so much better than this. But, like, something didn't sit right with me, so I kind of just, like, tried to brush it off for a while. And he would reach out through, like, he had, like, a work phone. And there's just, like, other ways that he could get in contact with me after I blocked him. And, like, he, like, reached out once here and there, and, like, I blocked all the numbers and, like, it was fine. But then I saw that this girl and him, like, there was a picture that had, like, floated around, like, some area that I had seen. And I was like, this is really hurtful that she's posting these pictures. And the picture was dated to back when we were still together, and they were becoming more recent. So I was like, there's no way that this girl really knows about me. There's no way that this girl could have possibly known about me. So I screenshotted the pictures and I unblocked his number and sent them to him. But before I had done that, I had sent the girl a message saying, I Know that you know about me, and I want to let you know that this is, like, the situation, and these are the dates that, like, we broke up. I just want you to kind of be aware of, like, everything that kind of happened. And he was like, he had no idea that I had sent this message. He reached out and was like, I'm going to fix it. Everything's great. Like, I'm going to break it off with this girl, and, like, everything's going to be perfect, and we're going to live happily ever after. And, you know, like, I was like, yeah, right. Okay. Like, still holding on to the fact that, like, he was so great to me during that whole entire relationship that I was, like, trying to hold on to, like, him being a good person. And, like, this whole situation, like, just, like, not really matching up with the idea of me knowing, like, who he was. And then I kind of found out during the phone call. He was like, I wish you would have let me tell you. I mean, tell her. I wish you would have let me tell her. And I was like, what do you mean? And he got, like, very, very much upset. His tone changed, and he was like, she had no idea that me and you were dating, so she was completely blindsided as well. And, like, the whole message that I sent her was, like, a very blindsiding thing as well.

Nick (6:13)

So he told you that she knew.

Jessica (6:16)

About you the whole time, and then the whole time, like, immediately after. Yeah.

Nick (6:22)

And then. So he lied about that?

Jessica (6:24)

Yeah. Yeah. So then I had, like, he was upset about it, and so I was. I'm kind of, like, on this, like, idea of, like, well, if somebody's going to do something really terrible, like, I just need to, like, I just really need to hear it from their mouth. Like, I need to hear it. So I said, well, here are your options. Either you, like, own up to what you did, and she knows now that, like, you were cheating on her, too. And, like, this is a situation where, like, you're going to have to deal with, now you lost both of the girls that you were with, or I can actually be nice to you and text her and say, actually, this was all. I was crazy. I made that all up. None of that was true. And I asked him, I said, what date would you like me to tell her that we broke up so that you. You can feel good about this and, like, have your situation where you can lie to her and continue on? And I didn't really, like, have any plan on actually doing this, but I.

Nick (7:23)

Just wanted to see what made you say that.

Jessica (7:25)

I think that I really wanted to hear it from him that, like, he was going to choose the. The bad person decision. Like, he was going to choose the decision that was going to harm both me and her and have, like, totally, like, just him for himself. Like, I think that that was, like.

Nick (7:40)

You'Re almost, like, setting him up to make another bad decision. Like, you want to, like, see him make this. Like, you almost were like, hey, I'll help you lie to this other person to see if he would take the bait, right?

Jessica (7:52)

And he did. He was like, yeah, yeah, please send it. Please send it. And I was like, oh, okay. And then I hung up on him. I blocked his number, and I called the girl and let her know, like, everything that had happened, and she was like, oh, my gosh, I feel so bad. I have no idea. And, like, me and her are like, okay, and everything's fine there. Like, we had talked about everything, but at this point now it's like, how do I just, like, I have this picture of this one person that my whole life was, like, built around. We had plans to go and get married. He had a ring. He had a house that he was buying. We had picked out a house together he was going to put in, and he had so many plans for us as soon as I graduated. And it was just a blindsiding moment of, this is a totally different person than the person that I just spoke to on the phone that said, yeah, yeah, yeah, please lie for me so that she knows that's tough.

Nick (8:48)

And so, yeah, and now you're just like, what. What's.

Sarah (8:52)

You.

Nick (8:52)

You start. You called by saying, like, you're. You can't let go. Like, why can't you let go?

Jessica (8:57)

I just feel like there's, like, not really anything else for me to do other than to like, not respond, focus on myself and heal and do all the things that, like, obviously, like, your. Your podcast. Like, I listen to your podcast, and I listen to, like, anything that you're supposed to be, like, healing yourself and doing the things for yourself. And, like, yes, I'm doing those things, but what else can I do? Like, I'm not sure if, like, anyone can answer that question. It's like, what else can I do to make this, like, kind of, like, stick in my head? That's like, these are two. Like, this is the same person in both of these worlds.

Nick (9:33)

Well, that's the thing that you have to let go of. You know, you started this call by saying it was a perfect relationship, and then you proceeded to Tell me a story that disqualified the reality of what you felt like your relationship was. So one, you gotta, you have to accept, which is hard, what your relationship was and what it wasn't. And you have to stop calling it perfect. And I imagine that it's scary to do because, you know, like you mentioned you kind of pride yourself on being like. We all to some degree pride ourselves on being judge of character and, and things like that and having good intuition. But like, some people are just good at lying and like, there's a level of, you know, vulnerability that we all need in relationships. And that vulnerability requires us to like, trust people at the risk of being lied to and hurt and things like that. And. And this guy really that up for you, right?

Jessica (10:30)

Yeah, for sure.

Nick (10:32)

Ruin your trust. You know, it affected your trust in yourself and how. Who else can I trust in the future? He was so good at lying to me. Yeah. Sometimes there's just nothing you can do about it. And you, you know, I guess you have to give yourself a little bit of grace to say, you know, like. Yeah, it just, like sometimes it's shitty things happen in relationship and there's some bad people out there. I think what you need to try to stop, you need to just kind of almost in a way forgive yourself. It's like, that's nothing I could have done differently. That sucks. It was dumb. You know, he lied to me. I chose to trust a guy and he lied to me. And this is the fallout of it, you know. But what you have to stop trying to do is to preserve the good times. Right. There must be some kind of part about you that it's. That it's scary. It feel. Probably feels scary to say that was a total waste of my time and I was with someone who just totally lied to me and nothing was real and that sucked, you know, and it probably feels right now there's not much. What, you know, you're like, what can I learn from this? That it. Everyone's a liar, that I can't trust people. That's the, that's the lesson, you know, and that's not really the lesson, but I'm sure that's how it feels.

Jessica (11:53)

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head there.

Nick (11:55)

Yeah. Maybe the lesson will reveal itself later. Later. But I think, I think right now you have to remember this is still really raw. It just happened. And I'm guessing a lot of what you're trying to. You're trying not to be sad or, you know, you want these feelings to go away. And so, you know, you mentioned, you know, I'm a hard time letting go. It sounds like to me you're having a hard time letting go of the life you thought you had and the dreams that you had with this person. And, and there's maybe a part of you that's like, is there any way to salvage this? Is there any way, like, how can I justify this? It's probably easier for me to somehow make an excuse for him or, you know, do these like, mental gymnastics that make it, you know, so that he's not so evil. Which means that if he's not so evil, then I'm not so stupid for believing him. And you're doing all these kind of mental gymnastics. But I think right now, I think it's just okay to tell yourself, like, something shitty happened to me and that's I didn't deserve that. And I'm really just fucking sad. And there's going to be a period of time that you are allowed to be sad and you just have to be okay with that. Like, just give your, you know, it's like I, I'm allowed to be sad and crushed, you know, I didn't deserve this. You know, maybe you met a friend, maybe you made a friend out of it. This girl.

Sarah (13:13)

I don't know exactly.

Jessica (13:15)

Like, you hit it right on the head.

Nick (13:16)

But yeah, I think you just have to. It's just, it's so raw, you know, you're hurt, you're blindsided, you know, but you still have your dream job, right?

Jessica (13:28)

Yeah, and I haven't let it affect anything like that because I know that that's like, not something that would benefit any of us.

Nick (13:34)

Like, and you still, you still live in different places.

Jessica (13:39)

But I have to go home for three weeks and a week because I have my finals this upcoming week and I have to go home and be in the same, like, area as him. Like by myself, with nothing to do, no job, no distractions, none of that. Which is also a hard thing to come to terms.

Nick (13:54)

Why you?

Jessica (13:55)

Okay, because my apartments are like changing over of like, town. So, like, this is like the three week breaks that we have that I'll be like back into the town that I was at.

Nick (14:07)

But, but why, but why do you have to go there? I guess. Who's there that you're going home to?

Jessica (14:13)

Just like my apartment back in the hometown that I met him in is like, still open for me to stay there. Like, because I don't have a place to stay. Like, okay, for the three week period. And then after the three weeks are Up. I can go back because the apartment lease has like.

Nick (14:29)

So logistically you just like you're kind of homeless and like, you know, you're. It's not like you're going home for the holidays.

Jessica (14:35)

Like, I have to be.

Nick (14:36)

You have to be there?

Jessica (14:37)

Well, I mean, yeah, obviously. Obviously. Like, I probably see my family for like the holiday, but I guess it's a little bit harder because like I can't get a job for like the three weeks to distract myself or I can't do like schoolwork anymore to distract myself because that's kind of all I've done. Anyway. It was just on this break. So it's just like kind of just sitting with these feelings too. And that's, that's a hard thing to come to too.

Nick (15:01)

What about your. What are your friends up to these days?

Jessica (15:03)

You know, like, everybody's got like their job and their work and it's like nobody wants to hang out on a Monday day. Like they got work and things like that. Like, I feel like the schedule is like since we're all 26, everyone's got their full time week job. I mean, obviously I'll see them on the weekends, but it is going to be a lot of time spent by myself because of the way that things kind of lined up. That was kind of where I spent. He had taken off all this time to come and he's going to have that time off too because he had taken that time off for his break, for his work so that he could see me for those three weeks and we were going to go on a trip and there's a whole bunch of other things that like, had planned.

Nick (15:44)

Well, his plans aren't, you know, very reliable.

Jessica (15:48)

Yeah, that's true.

Nick (15:50)

So, yeah, you know, it's a hard one.

Christina (15:54)

I know.

Jessica (15:55)

I'm sorry.

Nick (15:55)

Well, no, I mean, it's hard, you know, it's. Yeah, it's. It's hard. Don't be sorry. You know, it's like you're. It's a shitty situation that has no, like, there's no magic thing I can say to take your feelings that you're feeling right now away. I think the biggest thing to do is just not beat yourself up. You are a victim in this situation that happens from time to time. I am willing to bet as time passes, you will be able to look back on situations with him and maybe identify some red flags that you maybe didn't see in the past. And that only might be helpful because again, right now you have this narrative in your head that you're just like, I just completely blindsided me and everything was perfect and I completely. But there might just be, I guess, just signs that, like, he, he wasn't as honest. You're, like, done with this guy, right? To be clear, you're not.

Jessica (16:57)

Yeah, I, I, I feel completely done with him. It's just hard to let go of that person that he was. Like, it's almost like he died in a way. Like, Like, I don't get to see him and I'll never see him again because he never existed. Yeah, it was like a totally different person.

Nick (17:18)

Yeah, that's sad, you know, but it's like, don't just try not to romanticize that. He just. Yeah, that's the thing. You were, you know, it's not like he just. You were lied to. Is there anything that, like, when you're looking back, that you're like, man, I guess that makes more sense now.

Jessica (17:36)

I mean, when I met moved here, like, around the time that he had told me, like, oh, like, you should say we broke up at, in July or whatever, he, around that time, he had come here and he had said, like, I don't really know what to do right now. Like, I feel very disconnected. But I still love you. I still want to be with you. Everything was like, everything. I'm still really happy. I just, like, feel like I need to get this off your chest. And like, I was like, okay, what we're gonna do is we're gonna go to therapy. You're gonna go to therapy. You're gonna go see a therapist. And he did. Like, I know he did because I had all stuff on my phone.

Nick (18:10)

This is before or after you found out the truth?

Jessica (18:12)

Before I found out the truth.

Nick (18:14)

He was just like, I, I'm, I'm, I'm. I don't know why I'm sad. I'm sad, basically.

Jessica (18:19)

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that was like, him maybe feeling sad and, like, not knowing how to, like, break it off with me. And like, that was his way of, like, trying to do that. But then I was just like, you know, you can go to therapy. Let's set you up. Everything's going to be okay. And so, like, I, I set him up and he had like, he said, I feel 100% better after going to, like, six, seven therapy sessions. He's like, my therapist even said, like, we can even meet less if you want. And, and he graduated and he felt so much better. And we had talked about it, we talked about our feelings very openly. And he had left that Night thinking, like, I don't know what I'm going to do. But he had texted me the next day and was like, I 100% am all in on us. Like, I don't have any, like, chance of wanting to be with anybody else. And I had asked him if there was somebody else when this happened. I'm like, is there somebody else? Is that, like, what is making you feel that way? And, like, he was like, no, no, no, no, no. Not even close. But that was part of where he was kind of with this girl. So, I mean, that's probably the only thing that I can think of.

Nick (19:25)

Yeah. I mean, well, there, you know, but that's a good example. So, I mean, I guess what do you. What do you. I guess right now, like, what are you struggling with the most?

Jessica (19:35)

Just, like, what else can I do? I know. Never talk to him again. Right? Like, that's the obvious. I know. Like, you got to focus on yourself, focus on your studies, do all the things that you have to do so that you can be a better person and heal, Be better. But, like, I just feel like, okay, like, I can do all that, but, like, it doesn't make, like, I guess maybe just make the, like, make anything, like, feel any better. Like, at this moment, obviously, it's pretty fresh, so it's, like, hard. But, like, there's other things. Like, I feel like there's got to be something else to do. And I don't. I don't know, like, if you can answer that question, because it might not be true. There may not be something.

Nick (20:10)

Well, that's. Maybe, Yeah, I think the answer is maybe there isn't anything to do right now. It's so raw. Like, sometimes you just have to let feelings take its course, you know? Like, this was traumatic for you. It sucked. It was really painful. It's a scary thing to, like, feel like you can trust someone and then realize that this person was so comfortable lying to you, someone that you chose to trust and count on and rely on, and that's. That's a scary feeling. And traumatizing and scarring and. And potentially can affect you. And I think right now, your problem, I guess, if you want to call it that, is that, yeah, you're just. It's. And I understand why you're just. You want this pain and feeling to go away, and it just might just take some time for those feelings to run its course, you know?

Jessica (20:53)

Yeah. Yeah.

Nick (20:55)

And.

Jessica (20:55)

And also, like, just, like, letting go of, like, the thought of everything that was going to be too, because, like, There was all those plans and, like, knowing that that's not, like, not going to happen anymore, too.

Nick (21:07)

I mean, that's the thing. The thing. Right? You know, that's why the thing. You're like, well, what else can I do? Well, on one thing, there's nothing you can do right now or nothing I can say to you or nothing you can do in the next, say, 12, you know, the next few days that's gonna go, oh, I feel totally fine now. I'm over it. I'm healed. I've moved on. I'm like, that's a distant memory. That's pain. Like, that's. That's not possible, right? And I think deep down what I'm hearing from you is that what you're. That. That. Yeah. What can I do to make this go away? Because I'm sick and tired of hurting. I'm sick and tired of going to bed sad. I'm sick and tired of waking up even sadder. And then simultaneously, it's scary to just accept that, like, you. You trusted this person. And, you know, like you said, now you're still playing that game. We often do in these breakups, which is to. The only thing that kind of what's fucked up is, like, when these moments were really sad, like you are right now. And you just want to not feel sad to, you know, to. To, you know, maybe you hear a song that reminds you of something or something. Like, you know, something reminds you of something. And then you give yourself permission to, like. Like daydream and go into that mental space of just remembering the good times and just kind of thinking about the trip you guys were gonna go on and what that would have been like if this didn't have happened. And it's. I think we do it just because it's like a coping mechanism to temporarily relieve us of this pain that we were just tired of feeling, you know? And I think, yeah, there's nothing to do to eliminate the pain. But what you can do right now is to make. And I know it sounds annoying, is to allow this. What you want to do is to allow yourself to continue to heal and. And try to avoid doing things mentally that. That. That keep you feeling stuck and delay the healing process. So there's things you can do. It's just, like, not. It's not what you want in the moment. Try not to think about these trips. Try not to ruminate about all the things he promised you that he, you know, that you were going to do that he didn't do. Like, clearly, he's just a comfortable liar. And it was all bullshit. It was, it was all bullshit. And you, you know, you got played by someone who was just incredibly selfish and self centered. I'm curious, were there other examples in this past year where he, you wanted things from him or ask things from him that he was like, I can't do this. And he had, he had excuses for things for why he couldn't give you what you wanted or needed.

Jessica (23:39)

I mean, I think that we were both very much set on goals in terms of like, I was very much, you can only see me this weekend because I am studying for all of these things. I, I can only see you at this point in time and like we can talk on the phone or whatever, but these are the times. And like he was very much adamant on like going on those days and so they were very pre planned. But I think one of the things that I was like kind of thrown off was, is like my birthday, I had had, we had done an early birthday for me but I had mentioned like, oh, well, I can still see you on my birthday if you want. He's like, oh, well, I'm working. But like that was normal for him working like those days. And like we hadn't planned it before. But I really, like, I really do think that he was so good at lying because like he would buy like me and my roommate like tickets to a, like a game, like to go to a game, like oh, have fun. Or like he would, he would get groceries for us whenever he came up here. It was like he would always buy us dinner and like there was a lot of like things that I think he did maybe out of guilt or maybe out of like to try to show me that he loves me too. But I think like a lot of the things that he did were very much like almost like a cover up because I had no idea.

Nick (24:57)

Yeah, maybe, maybe not. I don't know. I would be careful about that because I just don't want in the future you meeting a guy who just like does care about you and goes the extra mile. And I don't want every nice gesture to be like, are you cheating on me? There might just, there might not be anything you can really, you know, he's just a liar. You just have to try not to do the things that we all typically do in these situations just to beat yourself up to like blame you. What could I have done differently? How could I have, you know, I'm so stupid or whatever. And it's just like this choice between emotionally beating yourself up thinking that you should have known better or, or forgiving him for things you shouldn't forgive him or trying to remember him differently than you should because it's like, it makes you feel silly to just accept him for who he is. But like, sometimes it's like, how old are you again? You're 26.

Jessica (25:46)

26, yeah.

Nick (25:48)

And listen, I mean, I'm sure, you know, 20 is. You've never been 26. It's not like you, you know, I don't know how you feel, but probably not. You probably don't feel as young as I, being a lot younger than me. And this is a very shitty situation, but it is something you will get through. It's not the end of the world, even though I'm sure right now it feels like it. And you know, you come across as someone who is very disciplined and very goal oriented and knows what she wants. And you're very. It sounds like you're very good at like, making things happen for yourself and you're very good at counting on yourself and so you can trust yourself and to do things. And so when someone like this enters into your life, it really probably rattles your confidence in yourself. And it feels like, you know, I had everything going and everything I'm. Part of my plan was working out and now my plan has been totally blown up. But sometimes, like, listen, like, I. There are a lot of situations around your age that I was, you know, I remember going through and a lot of things that felt like the end of the world and they weren't. Especially when it came to, like, romantic relationships falling apart or feeling blinded or lied to or, or things like that. And it's a scary feeling, but you will get through it. And you are only 26 and thank God this happened to you now with this guy. And like this, if nothing else, just might be a reminder, like right now, you know, I'm. I'm in the golden phase of my life. Like, I, you know, I. My dreams have come true. Got my wife, I got my daughter. I mean, it's all. It's like I am. But I've lived enough life not to be like a skeptic or a pessimist or. Not that I think that, you know, but I, I don't take anything for granted. I'm aware that as great as things are right now, and, and I, me and Natalie talk about this, but like, this could go away, you know, like, I don't know what the future is in store for me. And I'm on this kind of Heater of like, what feels like some really special moments in my life. And, and I'm, I am trying to enjoy it as much as possible, but like, life's as full as ups and downs and you have to ride, you know, you have to. When, when you're up, you have to enjoy the ups while not getting a little, you know, not getting too cocky, still being, you know, understanding that adversity still will show up at your front door. And I don't know when that's going to show up, but, you know, I will be prepared to handle it. And I, you know, I think when you're, when we're younger, I remember, you know, when I remember being 26, when, when an adversity like that showed up, I just never really experienced that kind of disappointment or, or, or. And it really felt like the end of the world. It really felt like, how could, how do you get through something like this? And so I imagine you're feeling similar feelings right now. But not to sound like the old guy or whatever, but this too shall pass. And like, you know, I think it just like you, you, what you want this to do is like, allow you to be more resilient. You will want to get through this and you will get through it. And when you get through it, you have to find that balance to be resilient. Understand that, like, you have to like that pat on the back, I got through that. And. But still not lose your trust in people to still be able to be vulnerable, you know, to put yourself out there and still be crushed and know that, like, you know, then I say this all the time, like your person is going to break your heart someday. You know, he's. They're going to disappoint you. You know, that's sometimes what happens in relationships. And the people we care most about are the easiest ones to let us down because we have so much trust and faith in them. Certainly not to this degree that he did this to you. But even, even your, your, your person that you're going to find is going to, you know, something's going to happen where they're going to have to say, I'm sorry, you know, hopefully it's, you know, hopefully it's nothing like this, but like, hopefully this is a situation where it will pass and you will be glad that you did and just know that again. I hope I'm making sense and I'm just kind of rambling. But the scariest part about what you're going through, from what I can, I guess I'm Just gathering is your personality. Is this like you're, you're not used to things not working out the way you planned.

Jessica (29:56)

Yeah, 100. And like I had never expected it either because he is, he's 30. So like 26, 30. And he went for like a 21 year old. Like it wasn't like this like situation where like I like he told me that there was like this forever because, and I believed him because she's 21.

Nick (30:11)

The other girl's 21.

Jessica (30:12)

The other, the other girl's 21. Yeah. And like he's 30. So like why aren't you ready to just have one girlfriend? Like why, why is this.

Nick (30:21)

No, I don't think age has anything to do with that. I mean they're sound like like every 23 year old guy is justified to have two girlfriends or needs two girlfriends. I don't think it's not a, it's not an age thing.

Jessica (30:33)

Yeah. But once we get to a certain age and we're ready to buy a house and buy a ring, apparently you would.

Nick (30:39)

This guy is really good at making and planning for things that he's got a good, he's good at saying things. And maybe for you, someone who like, I mean the risk that I think you have sometime is someone who sounds like you're a bit of a planner. And again like you can trust yourself to make good decisions for yourself. You have good follow through you, you're good at setting goals for yourself and accomplishing those goals. This plan didn't work out and that's probably what you're struggling with this the most. And he was part of your plans and I think you just have to like you. The lesson here is like again it's just like more than anything, it's just like I. This won't be the last time I bet big on something that doesn't work out and you bet big on him and it didn't work out. What, you're still here. You still got a every. The only thing that's changed in your life is you just don't have a boyfriend.

Jessica (31:33)

Yeah, true. And like I didn't make him the center of my world either. Like the whole center of my world has been my education and I pride myself in that too. Like that I had probably not done that in my other relationships, but he was like very much something that added to me and never subtracted. And we were very like very, very much on that like term is that we can only add to each other's lives. And if you subtract from Mine. I don't think that you should be here because I have this plan for my life and if you're not going to add to it, then you're only going to take away from me going and meeting my goals and, and following my dreams and everything like that. And so he was super supportive of that.

Nick (32:11)

And yeah, but he was supportive.

Jessica (32:13)

Like, you know, he subtracts from it.

Nick (32:14)

You were kind of like, hey, all right, like, I know what I want. This is what I need. I need this. I don't need that. You know, okay, we're long distance. I just. And you basically kind of gave him a roadmap. I know you didn't mean it like this and this is not your fault, but you were just like, all right, well, I just. These, I don't need this. He's like, all right, well this sounds like I got another girl in my life is that I only have to, you know, you, you, you basically gave him the roadmap of how you, he can do the bare minimum to keep you comfortable with the relationship. Again, you didn't do anything wrong, but that's just what happened.

Jessica (32:46)

No, I know. Yeah, I think like I would not be like in a position where I would accept a bare minimum because like I obviously when he did see me and like when we did talk, like everything was very much up to like the standards of what I wanted and needed and he was aware of that. Like, he was very much like, it was never like a, like high hey conversation where like you just gave like just breadcrumbs or like it was always like phone calls, talks come. As soon as you tell me that I can come, I'm coming, like, I'm going. It was never like a bare, I never expected it to be a bare minimum thing, but I did give him that roadmap. Like I did tell him like, these are the things that I need and if you can't give them to me, go somewhere else, go do something else, be with someone else. Because those are things that like I personally want and need out of relationship and like I'm not taking no for an answer for those. And he was like, yeah, yeah, gladly, I'll do that. But then he goes into whatever he needs to do.

Nick (33:39)

Well, let me ask you this because again, you seem very career focused right now and this is, that's awesome to hear and at being a 26 year old person, like, great time to focus on your dreams, especially professionally. But could one make an argument that it's like what I'm hearing from you is like, you're very career focused. You got. You get, You're. You're chasing your dream job and. And all the things are working out. And like most people, even at 26 people who are career focused, like, you know, you want a companion, you wanted a boyfriend, you wanted to be able simultaneously chase your professional dreams and open the doors to a possibility of finding your person and settling down at some point in your life. But could you also make the argument that, like, well, it had been nice for you to have a boyfriend. You are in a time in your life where, like, to your point, like, a boyfriend's just not a top priority and, like, you really don't have a ton of time to really invest in, like, a relationship. Not that you don't have time to invest in a relationship, but you certainly don't have time to give your whole world a relationship and really just kind of like, you know, and so maybe this is like, again, like, if a guy shows up, great, you know, in your life, but, like, maybe, you know, it's okay for you to be single for a while and, you know, it's just like, to your point, it's just like, okay, like, now I have even more time to focus on my dreams and my career. And if, like, I, as I heal through this breakup, you know, like, maybe I'll get back on the apps or I'll start dating again, but right now, I don't really need that. I mean, again, I have so much going on in my life right now that doesn't need a guy or a companionship. And I guess my point is this, like, you didn't do anything wrong, but, like, you know, again, like, you were. It was more like, I didn't need a boyfriend. A guy showed up, I told him what I wanted, exactly what I needed, and he unfortunately used that roadmap as a way to try to have his cake and eat it, too. And maybe you were a little preoccupied with your personal life and professional life that, like, while there was nothing, he was a good liar, a great liar, and you shouldn't be. Have to, like, go in a relationship where you're constantly questioning everyone's intentions. But maybe you being so preoccupied, that allowed him to get away with, you know, some.

Jessica (35:48)

Yeah, I think I, like, went into it with eyes wide open, too, and just saying, like, okay, well, like, we don't have to do this. Like, if you don't want to do this long distance, like, that's okay. Like, I'm okay. Like, before we had left and, like, we were together for Like, a year and a half before we had left. And he was like, no, gung ho, 100. I want to do. Do it. And. And, like, tell me everything that you need them. And I said, like, okay, well, you're not exactly gonna get everything that you need out of me right now. I promise you that. I have everything to give you as soon as I'm out, but I'm gonna give you everything that I can. And I did.

Christina (36:19)

And.

Jessica (36:19)

And he told me that, too. Like, there was nothing that you could have given me. There was nothing that you could have changed. All of this happened because of me. Like, it has nothing to do with you. No, that's like, I even 100% true.

Nick (36:29)

Yeah. To be clear, he's. He's definitely right about that.

Jessica (36:33)

But, like, we had discussed it, and he was like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm just gonna go get a dog. Like, I'm just gonna go get a dog, and then I'll have that. And then once you come back with, like. And I helped him, like, raise his puppy until I left. And then, like, when I left, he got another girlfriend and he had the dog, too. And it was just like. I don't know, just like, this whole.

Nick (36:51)

Like, it's a shitty situation. I mean, I think we could just. Yeah, we have to just agree on that. And I think you just have to accept that a little bit. And there's only so much you're going to be able to, like, figure out, especially right now. Back to what I said before. This is so raw and so new. You're just going to have to allow yourself to be sad for a little bit. And I know that gets a little irritating. And again, what? You just to try to, like, not have this feeling linger longer than it needs to. You just have to, like, practice not romanticizing. You have to stop daydreaming about the promises you made or what your life would have looked like if he wasn't a liar and remind yourself of, like, listen, I. I chose to have a boyfriend at a time in my life where I definitely didn't need one. And quite frankly, I have right now, in this moment, bigger priorities than a boyfriend. And I. I tried. You know, I'm certainly capable of having a boyfriend right now. I. I can manage. But, like, it just didn't work out, and that's a bummer. And, yeah, someone lied to me and really, like, affected my trust in people. But, like, the important thing is, is, like, the only thing that's changed is now I just don't have a boyfriend. And I definitely. My feelings are hurt. But the things that really mattered most to me at this stage of my life, I still have, and nothing's changed. The things that are most important to me, the only thing I've realized is that this particular guy is not my guy. And honestly, like, I'm sad and it's frustrating, and I. I'm gonna have to work, you know, work on some trust issues that maybe I have right now because of what this guy did to me. I'm definitely better off. Thank God I learned now, and I will learn from this. I don't know what that lesson is right now. You don't have to learn your lesson right now. You don't have to have this, like, grand epiphany, you know, like, you can allow yourself to heal, but just don't for, you know, just don't forget what. Where you're at in your life right now. Nothing's changed in that sense. And as far as the next couple weeks, just get through it, you know, get busy, whatever it is. Try something new. And like, I don't know, maybe you're just gonna have a couple days where you're sad. But don't allow that to make you make foolish decisions. Don't get bored and curious and reach out and unblock them. Don't ask for questions, you know, you don't, you know, like, don't try to come up with something that convinces yourself, I need to know this. I need to know why he did this. So I'm going to unblock, I'm going to reach out and text them. Hey, I was wondering something. Why did you. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Why did you promise me that? Like, you're not gonna. He's a liar. You're not gonna get the answer. That's going to feel good. So don't try to, you know, because there. It would be normal for you to, like, get lonely, miss him, get in your head, reminisce about something, get activated, get this, said this. And then, like, I need an answer. I need closure. I need to know. And then you reach out to him, and then it just you up a moment. Like, that's the stuff you have to try not to do. And that's normal for you to do. It's not going to make you feel better. It's just going to stop you from feeling worse, and it's going to stop you from delaying your healing process. And again, that's all you can do right now is just try to get that healing process initiated. It's going to feel slower than you want it right now, but just don't do anything to delay it.

Jessica (39:52)

Yeah, that's good advice. I guess. It answers the don't respond. Focus on yourself and heal. Don't go back on it. Don't go into that thought process of, okay, I need to know exactly why this is happening and I need to reach out and find out and try to figure this out.

Nick (40:09)

There is no why. There's nothing for you to figure out. It's bad luck. It won't be the last time. Something, you know, like. And again, you are clearly someone who's got their shit together. Right. And so much about this show that I try to stress is just control you can control, you know, and you're doing so much of that in your life. And then when something that outside of your control, like, it just feels so helpless, especially for someone like you, who's so good at controlling what you can control and doing your part in making sure that your life works out the way you want it to work out. And then when things happen outside of your control, it feels even more helpless for you. And you just accepting that, that sometimes, every once in a while, life's gonna throw you something very difficult and challenging that you're just gonna have to process and let it happen is maybe just good life experience, that maybe the universe thinks it's time for you to learn. Not. Probably not. Doesn't make you feel better. But like, yeah, it's.

Jessica (41:09)

It's something to learn, I guess, because it's not like I did anything wrong. It's not like there was anything that I could have done. So I guess, like, the life lesson here is just that you have to experience things that suck sometimes.

Nick (41:21)

Yeah. I mean, yeah, truly, like, you have.

Jessica (41:24)

To go through those things.

Nick (41:25)

And you do. I mean, you do. Everyone does. That's what, like, you know, And I. I hope this is the worst thing that ever happens to you. And if that is that you have a charmed life, it's a great life, you'll have. You'll have other adversity, you know, And I think sometimes when adversity like this hits for the first time, it just feels very scary and very foreign and very hard to imagine. You'll get through it.

Jessica (41:46)

Yeah, 100%.

Nick (41:47)

But you will. You will.

Jessica (41:49)

Yeah.

Nick (41:49)

You don't need any more closure from this guy. I think that's just the biggest thing you. He is. There's nothing to figure out.

Jessica (41:56)

He's closed the book.

Nick (41:58)

Yeah. There's nothing to figure out. He just he lied. He's not the guy you thought he was, and he, he played you and he used you, and there's nothing you could have done about it. And you're not stupid. And he just, he took. He took you for granted. And that's, you know, you didn't waste. You know, it's like you're still only 26. You're gonna. You're, you're, you know, be okay with feeling like you wasted some time.

Jessica (42:18)

Yeah, 100. And like, I mean, in reality, I wasn't gonna date anyone while I was in this situation if I hadn't met him before anyway, so it's not like I wasted time.

Nick (42:27)

There you go.

Jessica (42:27)

Being with somebody.

Nick (42:29)

Yeah, there you go. See that? That's the stuff I want you to get good at, like, processing, you know, That's a great, like, what you just did there. Is that. That's the energy you want to bring. Is that like rational, practical thought process of like. Well, I, you probably wouldn't. I probably would have been like, happily single had I not met him for sure. So had you not met him, he probably saved you a couple, like, bad dates. You know, There could have been another guy that just kind of like, wasted your time. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, it's. It's not binary. It's not like, oh, had I not met him, I would have been that much, who knows? But, like, this happened. You had some good times. It didn't work out. You up a little bit. It's really harsh right now because everything's feeling raw and activated and your ego is just really hurt and you're feeling silly and stupid. But that'll just. That most of that will just pass.

Jessica (43:18)

The hope they will.

Nick (43:21)

You don't even have to hope. I promise you it'll pass. It's just. Yeah, it's just making sure you don't let it affect other things in your life that you wouldn't let it affect. And it sounds like you're not going to do that.

Jessica (43:30)

No, I won't. I think I've learned from this at least that it's not worth any more of my, like, emotional time and things like that. Like, it's not. He's not deserving of that. So it's like I have to. I have to do the things that are going to benefit me and stop benefiting him by, like, thinking about this and, like, making this a. There's nothing that I could have done, but I'm just feeding into it more and more by thinking of all the things that could have been and what we could have had and everything like that. It's just giving it to him. It's giving my energy to him that he doesn't deserve. It's not like something that. And it's a waste of my own time because I could be doing something better.

Nick (44:08)

Yeah. Yeah. That is the right mindset to have. And it'll get a little easier every day. And the good news is, is that doesn't sound like you're all that sad about, like, you missing him. It just. You just seem hurt in a way that stings.

Jessica (44:25)

Yeah. I think that, like, once you cross a certain line, it's like, that's not the person that I knew. So, like. Like I said, like, that person is dead. Like, that person doesn't exist anymore. And. And maybe they never existed, but I don't know that person.

Nick (44:41)

And I feel like you're a step further than some people would otherwise be in your shoes. I know. Like. Like, I've had relationships that didn't work out where I was really sad, where I was still very. I very. I missed them, you know, I was still very sad. I. All I. The only feeling I felt is this. Just wishing they were here, you know? And that was then. That feeling was so strong that I was just like. Could not. I could not process the ways in which, like, they weren't right for me. You know, I just couldn't. I was just too missing them, you know, Fast forward to another relationship that didn't work out. I remember being really sad, and I remember feeling blindsided. I remember feeling lied to and. And. And. And let on. But the manner in which she went about doing it, I remember being, like, kind of feeling icky about her and like. And the way she went about doing it was kind of like, yeah, I know I'm sad, and I know my heart still is. Like, I'm feeling all these feelings and I'm. But I do know that that's fucked up and I don't want her.

Jessica (45:44)

Yeah.

Nick (45:44)

You know, my ego wanted her to still miss me. And I mean, my ego wanted her to regret what she did to me. And my ego wanted kind of like that validation that she would sometimes someday regret it.

Jessica (45:56)

Yeah.

Nick (45:56)

But I knew I didn't want her. You know, it was like. And it feels like that's where you're at right now.

Jessica (46:02)

Yeah.

Nick (46:03)

You know, but you're still processing all these other things, which I still. I still waste a lot of emotional energy. Ruined ruminating over things. Even though I was, like, comfortable not Wanting her. But that's. You're still a step ahead than other people are in the shoes where it's still just like not being able to get past just like missing having someone and missing that companionship and, you know, and feeling loved and, and things like that. And. And I think that's great news for you. That's a good sign.

Jessica (46:30)

Yeah. No, I, I 100.

Sarah (46:32)

Yeah.

Nick (46:33)

Practice not ruminating. Practice not dwelling about this guy in this relation. Or it's the why questions. You have to be careful. The what? You know, I mentioned this. I'm plugging my book. But right now, when you're ruminating, if you start asking why you have to. That's such a light bulb being like, I don't need to know why. What. What happened? This is what happened. I don't want this to happen to me. I didn't deserve this. There's no why. What? He did this. He did that. He lied about this. Why? Who fucking knows? Who cares? Doesn't matter. It's the what that really matters. His actions matter. I'm not his psychologist. I can't. I don't know why people do what they do, but he did it. And that's all I need to know.

Jessica (47:14)

Yeah. 100.

Nick (47:15)

All right. Well, I'm sorry going through this.

Christina (47:17)

All right.

Nick (47:17)

It will be okay.

Jessica (47:18)

Thank you so much for helping.

Nick (47:20)

It did help a lot for yourself and, and focus on that and just. I would just. I think it's really important for you right now to just remind yourself, I'm gonna allow someone else. I'm gonna give my heart to someone else someday. I'm going to be vulnerable someday. I'm. It's going to be okay. I might be lied to in the future, but, like, I will. For me, I was always like, I'd rather be a fool than, than, than a skeptic, you know, because I knew, like, if after a while you become more resilient and you know that you can get over a heartbreak, but you never want to give up on the chance to feel like that love and connection with someone and don't allow someone like him to steal that away from you. Your ability to be vulnerable somewhere in the future, you know, it doesn't mean, you know, you might get hurt again. But, like, focus on. What I want you to focus on as you heal is remember how you healed and that you did heal and know that that is replicable and that you can do it and that just will make you feel more resilient and unafraid to take risks in the future.

Jessica (48:18)

Yeah, that's definitely helpful.

Nick (48:20)

Okay. All right, good luck out there.

Jessica (48:22)

Thank you.

Nick (48:22)

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Christina (49:26)

Hi, Nick. I'm Christina. I am 30 and I'm trying to figure out how long I should wait for my husband to grow up.

Nick (49:34)

Okay. Given that he's your husband, like, what, how, like how close are you to not waiting anymore? And I guess, what. What do you mean by growing up? That's so.

Christina (49:44)

Like, we have kind of a complicated story. We're high school sweethearts. We got together when we were 16, and I grew up in kind of a dysfunctional household. And so I think I kind of clung on to him at a young age. And we've only been with each other, we've only dated each other, and we got married at 20. But our whole relationship, even since we've been married for 10 years, pretty much has been me being the leader. Even in high school. I helped him graduate high school. I was the one who went to college, and he came along with me and worked minimum wage jobs. And I was the one who wanted to get married and, like, develop ourselves and our careers, build a family. And he deals with a lot of mental health issues. And so I feel like I've also kind of been the strength in that regard to, like, taking care of him, comforting him constantly, mommy behavior right what.

Nick (50:43)

Like, what mental health issues is he dealing with?

Christina (50:46)

Without getting too far into it, definitely anxiety, depression, and ocd. Specific types of OCD that feel very, like, harmful and scary. And so a lot of that has resulted in me being kind of like, an emotional crutch for him.

Nick (51:02)

Scary for you? How so?

Christina (51:05)

Just having to deal with a lot of, like, intrusive thoughts and comforting him around that, and also just having constant anxiety, like, having him call me all the time, having to comfort him. I know that, like, he had a dynamic with his mom growing up where anything that he did wrong or had a bad thought, he had, like, this guilt wound where he constantly would go to her and then she would comfort him. And so I think because we got together so young, it's kind of switched into the same dynamic where I have kind of become that crutch for him. And so basically everything, like, that dynamic continued for a long time until we decided we wanted to start a family and have our daughters. So before we got pregnant, we had the conversation of, like, hey, I need to be a little bit more in my feminine. You know, you need to be your own person and be able to manage yourself. And, you know, are we gonna both commit to this? I can commit to being in my feminine. And can you commit to being in your masculine? And he agreed.

Nick (52:16)

Did he understand. Understood what you meant?

Christina (52:18)

I think he knows, but when it comes down to the reality of doing it, it's hard because we've only dated each other, so he. We both don't have a lot of practice outside of our own relationship.

Nick (52:32)

I mean, I get the gist of what you mean, but I'm not even entirely sure what you mean when you're, like, in my feminine. Like, I mean, I'm assuming you. It's just more. You want him to lead, take charge.

Christina (52:42)

Lead, be, like, emotionally stable. Also, like, have a plan for his life. Like, if you want to create a fant family with me, you should, like, want to have some form of a plan for where we're gonna go together. I feel like I'm just kind of a very driven person that has a lot of, like, dreams. And I've been like, here's my plan. Come along with me. And just. Has been. I've been dragging him along, I feel. So that's on me, right? I. I take responsibility for, like, choosing this person that is just more, like, okay with me leading everything and then trying to change him into being somebody who's leading us. But we got married at 20.

Nick (53:26)

How old are you now again?

Christina (53:27)

30.

Nick (53:28)

Is he really kind of just as helpless as you are describing?

Christina (53:34)

It feels to me like. Like, for example, when I got pregnant, his car broke. He couldn't afford a new one. So, like, I would, while starting my own business, take him to work every day while I was pregnant, pick him up from work every day from his minimum wage job, you know, encourage him to pursue a career and to what you do for work, it's a minimum wage, like, car detailing business, basically.

Nick (54:03)

Okay. And you think he's capable of much more? Probably.

Christina (54:08)

This is the problem is, like.

Sarah (54:11)

Once.

Christina (54:11)

We had our daughter, it really hit me that I did marry someone who maybe I settled for and who isn't gonna match my freak, right? But I'm married to this person now. I made a life commitment to him. And so I've been having this trouble of, like, where is the balance between accepting that and not trying to change him? And also, I do want a core family unit. I do want, you know, to continue to grow together and grow our family. But at this point, still, he. It's been three years. He doesn't have a car, we don't have health insurance. There's all these components of our relationship that feel so unstable. And I've been the one carrying our relationship, and I literally just feel like I can't anymore. I feel like I'm like breaking down and my body has been breaking out in hives. I've been so stressed because I'm like, working and taking care of our daughter and trying to balance it all, but I feel definitely trapped in this dynamic where he can't meet my expectations and I'm just like, what do I do from here?

Nick (55:21)

It's tough. I mean, the problem is tough is because it doesn't sound like you just have a lot of belief or faith in him.

Christina (55:29)

It sounds like I don't.

Nick (55:31)

Yeah, like, you don't. You're not describing, like, it's not like he's like he's a bad husband or a bad boyfriend. You know, he's like, got all this, you know, he just doesn't prioritize me and spends more time with his buddies. And I thought that would be better. But it like, you know, it also.

Christina (55:47)

Is that, like, we have a very. I don't have a lot of romance. There's no initiation, strength, leadership, like protection, anything in our relationship where I feel like a woman. And I know that we do have this dynamic where, yeah, it sounds like I don't believe him because I've been shown over so many years we've been together for like, 15 years.

Nick (56:08)

Yeah. Yeah.

Christina (56:08)

And I've been shown that every time that I trust to give him the reins and try to allow him to lead and make decisions for us, that they're just very irresponsible.

Nick (56:18)

Yeah. It doesn't sound like he, from your point of view, that he really has embraced being a husband and a father.

Christina (56:26)

Yes. It definitely feels like he wants the benefit of and the joy of being a dad and a husband without, like, the responsibility. He loves having our daughter and has a great relationship with her. He loves, like, playing with her. But when it comes down to actual work in our marriage, you know, he'll change her diaper and then just leave the dirty diaper on the floor. And I've just stuff like that constantly where it's like I.

Nick (56:56)

On a always or sometimes, because I'll be honest, I've done that before.

Christina (56:59)

It's okay that it happens. Right. But to do it constantly and have to have conversations on a daily basis, it feels like a mother dynamic. And I just fucking hate it. I'm like, how do I.

Nick (57:13)

It just sounds like in no way you feel taken care of.

Christina (57:15)

That's what it is. In no way. I look at every area of our relationship and I'm like, I feel in no way taken care of, and how am I supposed to have another child? I really want to grow our family. I never thought that we would have this big of an age gap. And I'm like, it's been three years. You know, I'm okay with it being longer if he was making a lot of changes and being consistent. But it seems like, especially now because he's on medication to help with some of his mental health issues, it went from like, this manic behavior of, like, yelling, being super inconsistent, and like gambling and all of these, like, really erratic behaviors to now he's very much apathetic and calm. But it's like, it feels like he's not even putting effort into the changes that I'm needing to be the man that I need.

Nick (58:10)

And other than like, sitting him down and being like, I want to be more of my feminine and I want you to be more in your masculine. What? Like, like, is that. What was that what the conversation really literally was?

Christina (58:18)

No. I mean, we've had conversations every day for a long time about, like, I need support. Like, my body started breaking out in hives. I developed a panic disorder. I'm working non stop. Like, I am a business person and I'm a mother that stays home with her daughter. And so it's like, I told him I'm crashing out. I've had, like, deaths in my family in the last couple years. I went through the whole postpartum thing and breastfeeding and staying up all through the night. And it's like I feel like I'm just carrying this whole relationship on my shoulders alone.

Nick (58:58)

Tough. Yeah. What do you feel like your options are?

Christina (59:01)

I feel like my options are either stay and accept who he is and just know that I'm gonna have to live my whole life this way.

Nick (59:11)

In what way is that? What does that look like for you?

Christina (59:14)

I think staying looks like settling and burning out. And that's what I watched my parents do. My mom was the leader of the household. She led everything, finances, home life, everything. And she resented my dad. And it has led to showing me that same dynamic. And I don't want to show that to my kids, that the wife just handles every little thing and has to parent her own partner. And so it's been really hard for me to recognize that an option isn't to control him to being somebody who I want him to be. And that's been really hard to let go.

Nick (59:56)

Does your husband have any male role models in his life?

Christina (60:00)

No, he doesn't have. He's very codependent on me. And so he doesn't have core male friendships. He doesn't even. His relationship with his men and his family isn't very strong. And he's acted the same way, like, just very impulsive, you know, screaming emotionally unhinged behavior with his family too, and with his friends. And so he doesn't have, like, the same strong relationships as I do.

Nick (60:28)

What's stopping you from moving on?

Christina (60:31)

I think it just. I do love him as a person. We've only been together, so I have no idea what is normal, what is not. I know that all marriages go through seasons, and what's really complicated is because I'm only 30 and we've been married for 10 years, all of my friends are like, you should just divorce them. You could do so much better, co parent and have that healthy relationship.

Nick (60:55)

Your friends are like, because this isn't.

Christina (60:57)

Normal in our marriages. But they've only been married for a couple of years. So I'm like, does every marriage get to a point after 10 plus years?

Nick (61:05)

Was your husband ever a rock star?

Christina (61:07)

It's hard because, like, when we first got together, we were literally in high school. So, yeah, of course, when it's easy, you're a rock star. We're hanging out, having fun together, but it's like what?

Nick (61:20)

You know, I mean, life look like. Yeah, I mean like rock star in the sense of you feeling taken care of somehow in some way. When you are complaining to your girlfriends who are married with kids, who are all adulting or maybe the ones who aren't even married, there is a baseline that you're desiring that they suggest that they have in your right. Like that's, this is not to compare what your boyfriend or your, what your now husband was like as a 17 year old kid in high school. You know, just like. Yeah, I mean like every partnership just needs like it's like what's the point of being in a relationship if if every once in a while you can't rely on your partner to say, hey, everything's gonna be okay, I got this. You can count on me or we can do this together or I will do my part. And someone who know from time to time can be your rock. And it goes both ways, you know, like I need Natalie to be that way for me. I like to think, and I don't think much in the feminine and masculine sense. I don't, I don't. You know, I grew up in a very conservative, traditional household in the sense that my parents had like, you know, I'm one of 11 kids and obviously we grew up a religious and things like that. But what I really like, I appreciate about my parents, my dad would sometimes cook dinner, my mom would sometimes mow the lawn. You know, like there were no, they were a team, you know, they, they, we, they were very blue collar, we weren't poor, we got by. But they just, they did it together, you know, and they had each other's backs and I don't know, masculine, feminine, whatever, you know, but it's just like they took care of each other and. Yeah, that's beautiful. And it's like it sucks that you feel like you're constantly taking care of your husband and your kid and you can't have time to take care of yourself and you're trying to get a business going and it must be very scary.

Sarah (63:11)

It is.

Christina (63:11)

And that whole mentality of like, don't worry baby, I got you. We're gonna get through this. You know, I'm never met with that. I'm always, I feel like even when I'm having a hard day, when it has nothing to do with him, I met with defensiveness or him completely shutting down and just not having like that emotional safety in a relationship has made me become even more self dependent and then that makes me even more Resentment, resentful. And that's not who I want to show up in a relationship as. But we are only 30, and we have only dated each other. And so it's like, I don't want to divorce this man and then have him become the man that I need in the next few years, and then look back and be like, is that possible? What do you think?

Nick (64:02)

Well, I never met him, but people don't usually change that drastically. There's a world where he could lose his wife and his family in a way. I mean, I'm assuming you wouldn't like, you know, he would still be a dad, and that could certainly. But even then, I don't know how much that changes people. Does he in any way have any clue how you feel?

Christina (64:25)

A hundred percent. That's what makes it so hard, is that we go to marriage counseling on a weekly basis.

Nick (64:32)

Okay, so you're doing the work?

Christina (64:34)

No, I mean, we're. He tells me all the time I want to be that person, too.

Nick (64:38)

That's so hard.

Christina (64:40)

I will do anything that it takes. I'm working on growing myself. But, like, he'll go to the gym for a few days, like, in a row, and then he'll completely stop. Or he started his own personal therapy, but then he said it was making his problems seem even harder and too big. So then he stopped doing that. And then he said, I'm going to pursue this career. And he started going to classes to learn how to do it, and then he stopped that.

Nick (65:07)

And so what's your husband passionate about?

Christina (65:09)

I think he's passionate about being a dad.

Nick (65:12)

Okay, that's pretty cool.

Christina (65:15)

That's pretty cool. He's a really. He is a great human being. He's a nice guy. That's what makes it so difficult, you know?

Nick (65:23)

All right, just to play devil's advocate for a second, why can't you just be the breadwinner of the family? And he him beat stay at home dad?

Christina (65:31)

I don't want to do that.

Nick (65:32)

You don't want to do that? You're not interested in that?

Christina (65:34)

Okay, I'm not interested in that at all. In fact, I'm working way more than what feels natural to me. I want to have more kids. I want to be at home more.

Jessica (65:44)

Okay.

Christina (65:45)

I feel like I'm only working so much because I have to.

Nick (65:50)

Okay.

Christina (65:50)

Yeah, but that's. And that's also not what we agreed on when we did decide to have kids together. You know, we didn't both go in saying, like, I'm gonna make all the Money and you can be a stay at home dad. And now I'm just changing my mind. It's like he's committed to, I'm gonna take more off your plate as our family.

Nick (66:08)

So why are you starting your own business?

Christina (66:09)

Because I've never felt like I was gonna be taken care of.

Nick (66:13)

Cause you have to, not cause you want to.

Christina (66:15)

I, I do like what I do and I really do like working part time. But the reason why I started my own business, I was working in corporate before this and I was like, if I have a family, I'm going to need to be able to make some form of income while being able to be remote and make up my own schedule. Because I just knew even at that time that I wasn't going to be able to stay home while my babies were little and make zero money because I've always paid for bills and taking care of like finances and budgeting for our family.

Nick (66:53)

It doesn't sound like you feel like your husband's very resilient.

Christina (66:56)

He's not.

Nick (66:57)

It's tough.

Christina (66:58)

Yeah. I feel a little trapped. And what really hurts me the most, I think, is that I want to have another baby so bad. And I feel like I've done all the right things as a woman. I did go and get a degree and pursue my career so that no matter who I was with, I had some. Something to fall back on. I did, you know, soften into my feminine. I know you hate that word, but I did.

Nick (67:27)

Yeah.

Christina (67:28)

I switched up the dynamic in our relationship on my side to be more accepting, more soft, more willing to let him lead. He's just not stepping into that. I feel like I took the pants off in our relationship and put them on the floor. And I've just been staring at them for three years being like, please pick them up and do something so that I can have more babies. And now I'm like, I know I shouldn't feel rushed to make a decision, but I feel like it's either stay with him and wait it out. And that in itself is a gamble of if I'll be able to have more kids with you or leave and try to find some other random person to have, grow a real family with and feel supported in a true partnership and have more children with. I don't want to just have one kid.

Nick (68:14)

Yeah, I don't. It's a tough situation you're in. I think, you know, it's like your life is not going as planned. That's okay. No one's does. I only say that to You. Because more than anything, I just. You're going to be fine. You're only 30, and you're in this very pivotal time, and it's not ideal, and I don't really have a right answer for you. To be able to look in the mirror and say, I need to expect more from myself and take pride in the people they care about. I just, like. It's lost. I don't know. It's so ingrained in who I am. But I had the benefit of having an amazing male role model in my dad. You know, my dad's not Mr. Macho Guy. That's five, eight. This little, you know, and, you know, this little guy, he never was a big. You know, he never, like, sat me down and taught me, like, what it is to be a man, you know, Nick, you have to do this to be a man. And, you know, like, I don't. Never been in a fight. I don't hunt. I don't do car. I like. I don't do any of that and traditional, like, stuff. But my dad took care of his people. He took care of his family. He invested his whole life into taking care of the people he loved. And. And that came with a lot of, like, hardships. And. And my dad. And, you know, my dad fucking grinded. I really admired that about my. About my dad. That's the sad part is like, I think you just meet me, you know? Yeah. It just makes me sad for your situation. I don't have a good answer for you.

Christina (69:40)

Me too. I constantly am feeling like, how are you not caring about, like, protecting our family or, like, building a future for us or just having this instinct to lead us to these shared dreams that we have.

Nick (69:55)

Does your husband realize that you're on the verge of leaving him?

Christina (69:58)

I don't know what to do. And I feel like time is ticking, you know, I know I am only 30, but I do want, like, one or two more children. I've always wanted a big family.

Nick (70:09)

Yeah, you're in a pickle. You know, you have this family. You have your daughter, you have your husband who you love as a person. You are only 30, but you are 30. And, like, you started your family. And I get it. The pickle that you feel like you're in, because it's like, you know, I know what it's like. You know, we. We. We've. We've been open about our struggle to. To have a second child. Like, you know, as river gets older, like, oh, my God, we want her to have a sibling that's Relatively close in age and, like, may or may not have happen the way we want it to. It's not. It's. It's. And you're right, you know, you. And. And the fact that you've never been with anyone else. You know, if you choose to leave this situation, you're gonna want to date, and it's gonna take you a while, and you're gonna have to meet a couple people and. And. No, I don't know. You don't. You don't even know what that's like. And you deserve to go and explore, and then you're gonna constantly be torn between. What I don't want for you is for you to leave this guy and have such limited dating experience and with this pressure you feel to, like, grow your family to. To jump. You know what? I really don't want you to go from one bad relationship to another. And it's going to take.

Christina (71:13)

It's going to take my biggest.

Nick (71:14)

It's going to take a lot of. Of. Of strength on your part, and. And that's going to be. You're capable of it. But it will be tough. I mean, I don't want to mint. You know, it's just going to really take a lot of discipline on your part, which, I mean, listen, the good thing is, is, like, you clearly are a strong person, and this has taken a lot of strength for you to get this far. And so you're gonna be okay. More than anything, I just want you to feel like you're gonna be okay, because I feel like right now it's probably easy for you to feel like the world's crumbling around you and there's no good options.

Christina (71:47)

That's exactly how it feels. And I think the worst thing I could do right now is have another child with this man and have more pressure be put on both of us.

Nick (71:56)

Is he pressuring you to have more kids right now? In a way, no.

Christina (71:59)

But he's promising me that he'll be different. And the actions aren't lining up with that. And so it's really confusing.

Nick (72:07)

I mean, like, I bet I. I already asked this question, but I'm gonna ask it again. Like, does he know you're like. Like, hey, I. I'm. I have one foot out the door, and I don't want to leave you, but I feel completely helpless, and I feel utterly alone, 100%.

Christina (72:22)

We have that conversation on a daily basis. And he tells me too. He's like, you deserve better. He's like, I am not the person who I want to be. Why am I. I've always had this vision of the man I want to be, and I just haven't had the tools or the understanding to show up as that person for you. And I'm disappointed in myself. And he says, I will be that person for you. It's just not going to be on your timeline. And so you can either wait for me to figure it out or you can leave me. I'm like, how long do we need to. I know there's a no timeline, but what's the timeline on you figuring it out?

Nick (73:00)

No, because it's tough because, like, the productive thing to say to him isn't the thing you want to say to him. Right. I mean, because the. The thing I'm guessing you want to say to him that I'd want to say to him is like, man the up, bro.

Christina (73:11)

You know, Like, I've said things along that line to him. Less harsh, obviously, but I have said, like, then do it. You know, step into the person that you're promising me. You can be. Show me with action, not your words. And he is unable to be consistent with that.

Nick (73:32)

I mean, could you.

Christina (73:33)

I don't know.

Nick (73:33)

I don't know. I don't. I don't have a good answer for you.

Christina (73:36)

It's kind of validating that you don't, because I'm so confused right now. So I appreciate you being honest about that, but I think at the end of the day, I'm just gonna have to make a decision after a certain amount of time and then make it the right decision instead of going back and forth on what is the right decision. I just need to listen to my intuition, I guess.

Nick (73:57)

And I've said similar things to different callers before, but one thing I've always been glad or grateful and decisions I've made throughout my life is that when I finally made a difficult decision, I had no regrets because I definitely, like, really put in the effort, and I really tried. And it was just like. And I definitely think in most of these situations, I tried longer than I probably should have, you know?

Christina (74:24)

Yeah, that's where I feel like I'm at.

Nick (74:26)

And. But once I finally decided to move on, it was like, yeah, I'm like, I. I have my answer. You know, I really knew. So, yeah, I want you to, if nothing else, just feel that and feel confident that you're making the right decision, even if it's a sad decision. I mean, have you ever. I guess, like, I don't know how. I don't know if this will Work or be productive. But in that vein, have you tried a separation where, you know, because your hope is like, he'll wake up. You're, you know, you're still.

Christina (74:56)

That's what we're doing right now.

Nick (74:57)

You are. You are separated.

Christina (74:59)

Technically, yes. Yeah. We're not, like, seeing other people. We're not making it a whole thing where we're, like, trying to date other people, but right now we are separated and practicing co parenting.

Nick (75:14)

How long has that been going on for?

Christina (75:16)

It's. I mean, once it first started, it got worse. Like, he was gambling more and having a lot of erratic behavior. But now he's medicated, so he's a little bit more stabilized. Co parenting is easy together, and so part of me thinks, like, maybe this is kind of just the best route for us is being friends and co parents. It just really pains me to break up our core family unit and have to. You know, we've always dreamed of having a beautiful family together, and so having to face that reality that it might not be the case hurts.

Nick (75:58)

How have you felt since your separation? How have you felt? I mean, outside of his behavior, how have you felt?

Christina (76:05)

Well, the house is clean. I'm not having to pick up after him, but definitely lonely. Like, I've always had him. And so I think in the ways where he's been codependent on me and anxiously attached to me, in similar ways, I've been, you know, emotionally attached to him, even if it's in a toxic mothering way.

Nick (76:27)

Sure.

Christina (76:27)

And so having to sit with myself, you know, I'm going to therapy weekly. I'm journaling every day, you know, working out all the things to take care of myself right now. But I think it's all just really sad. And I would hope that he would be busting his ass right now to, like, take care of himself and do the things that he needs to do to get back on track as an individual. That's the whole point of why we're doing this, so that he can focus on himself and being able to be the strong man to show up for our family. But I'm not seeing that on his end. Like, consistency with working on himself.

Nick (77:07)

Well, maybe right now the best thing for you to do is nothing. And what I mean by that is, I guess you've done the something which is like you've initiated the separation. How long you guys been separated for?

Christina (77:20)

A few months, but.

Nick (77:21)

A few months. Okay, so it's not total. So in few, in a few months, nothing really meaningful has changed in a.

Christina (77:28)

Positive Way, he did get medicated, so that's good. But then he stopped going to therapy, so that's. It kind of feels like a easy way out. Like a.

Nick (77:38)

And the medication. I know, like, does it feel like a band aid?

Christina (77:42)

That's exactly it. I think I would trust it a lot more if he was continuously going to therapy and working on himself, but it definitely does feel like a band aid.

Nick (77:54)

The medication he's on seems to level him out and make him less volatile, but it doesn't do much more than that.

Christina (78:02)

Yeah, exactly. So it took away him screaming, having all this erratic behavior, being very, like, mentally unstable. So now I'm left with all the other pieces of, like, incompatible incompatibility, lack of leadership, lack of, you know, protection and drive and all these things that I'm having to look at all these pieces and be like, is this enough to stay with this man? Take away all of the mental health issues.

Nick (78:29)

I guess, again, I mean, I still stand by. Maybe the best thing to do right now is nothing. And, and, and, but. But the only thing maybe to slightly change is how you're viewing the situation. Like, right now, I don't think you need to make a decision. You've made a very difficult one already a few months ago, which is to make that decision to separate. Right. And maybe just getting comfortable with that new normal, which is being alone. You know, you're not alone in the grand scheme of things. It sounds like you have a good support system. It sounds like you have some good friends, which is great. But in terms of romantic partnership, obviously you've been with the same guy for what feels like a lifetime, no doubt. And so just you being alone is new for you. And I think in preparation for the possibility that you might choose to move on, you know, embracing being a single mom and just getting comfortable with some of these lonely feelings that obviously will come and that will make you sad, but knowing that, like, you're still gonna be okay and you're making the right decision. And as difficult as it is to find in that, like, you know, I hope that you're feeling, at times, proud of yourself.

Christina (79:40)

Thank you. Yeah, I guess that's all. You sound like my therapist right now. Just, like, give yourself grace and don't feel like you need to rush a decision. But it just really sucks to be in this in between period where I feel like my clock is ticking and I just yearn for love and family and stability and all of these things.

Nick (80:03)

Have you been at least curious about what's out there?

Christina (80:05)

It's Hard to even think that way when I feel like I'm in survival mode right now.

Nick (80:10)

Okay.

Christina (80:12)

And just so overwhelmed with stress on top of.

Nick (80:15)

Are you still financially taking care of him?

Christina (80:17)

I'm.

Jessica (80:17)

I'm.

Christina (80:18)

I'm financially supporting myself and mostly my son right now, but he's taking care of himself, and I do want him to prioritize, like, stabilizing and making sure that he's okay. So.

Nick (80:32)

So you still are still financially taking care of them or emotionally taking care of them?

Christina (80:36)

I'm not financially taken care of. I am. I'm paying, like, the mortgage and.

Nick (80:41)

No, but you're still take. You're separated. But I'm asking, are you still financially taking care of him?

Christina (80:46)

Oh, no, I'm not financially taking care of him. No. I'm. No, I'm supporting myself pretty much right now. Our finances are separate.

Nick (80:54)

Okay. Have they always been separate?

Jessica (80:57)

It.

Christina (80:57)

We've been. It's gone back and forth over the years, but it's been pretty 50.

Jessica (81:02)

50.

Nick (81:03)

Okay. Yeah. I mean, again, I, I wish I could offer something better here because it's tough, but. Yeah, I, I really. I think right now just keep doing what you're doing because again, like, if you choose to move on, you know, you're not. You're going to be single for a while, and that's. And that's going to be okay, you know, short of some miracle of some, like, guy coming showing up in your life that, you know, not only feels good, but is good. Right. Because you no doubt the first guy, first decent guy you meet that, that demonstrates, you know, that, you know, you're going to date and some guy who, like, says all the right things and talks about how he wants to take care of his family and blah, blah, blah, says all these right things may not be that guy, you know, And I, you know, you're gonna have to. To sort that out, and that's going to be a challenge. You'll get through it. You can do it. But I, you know, I want you to feel comfortable with this new normal, which is for. For a period of time of, of maybe you being independent and, and not having a romantic partner in your life, all while being a mom and finding maybe the joys in that. It's very easy right now in your situation to feel like there's no. Nothing good going on, you know, and it's. And to focus on the bad. But it's really important that you do find the things that you are grateful for and what you have going on in your life. And as dark as it might feel right now, and as scary as it might feel, there are people in darker situations and you have your, you know, you can take care of yourself, and some people don't have that ability. You know, you've. I've watched enough of Housewife episodes to hear people talk about how, like, you know, I don't even know how to pay my bills, and I don't know how to do this, and I've always relied on my man to do that. And now my relationship's falling apart and I don't even know how to take care of myself like you do. And, you know, I think for, you know, you know, I guess I'm just trying to say that, like, there are other situations where it's. It's very easy in your situation to feel like anything would be better than what I. What. Than what I'm dealing with right now. Um, but, you know, this too shall pass, and you'll get through it. It's. It sucks now, but I think there's a path forward for you. I think. I think at some point you're just going to have to make a decision and just be confident in that decision. And it sounds like you're doing everything you can to fight for this relationship. You're doing all the work. You're doing the marriage counseling. You have been incredibly patient with this man for a long, long time. You're still hoping that he makes a change, and you're separated and you're still hoping. You're still hoping, you're still trying. And I think more than anything, don't forget just how much you've tried so that when you do, or if you do decide to leave, that you have no regrets because. Sounds like he'll make you feel bad or make you feel guilty and he'll, you know, the whole, like, you gotta do it on my timeline. Or. Or you can just leave me. It's. It's very kind. It's very manipulative and such a weak move on his part to, like, dare you to leave him as opposed to just, like, getting his shit together. Yeah. I don't know. What. What's your relationship like with his mom? I'm curious.

Christina (84:06)

With his mom?

Nick (84:07)

Yeah.

Christina (84:07)

She's. Deals with a lot of similar things. Mental health issues. And so it's been. Over the years I've been close with her because we've been together for so long.

Nick (84:19)

Is she aware of how you feel?

Christina (84:21)

Oh, yeah. I mean, she's aware. She's also been screamed at. She's been. She's Witnessed a lot of his behavior over the years. And she's told me he's always been like this his whole life. Like, he has always also relied on me for stability and emotional support. And I told her recently, too, I said, you know, I feel like he just moved, you know, using you as an emotional crutch to putting that responsibility on me as the woman in his life. And I can take accountability that I have stepped into that and been like an emotional, supportive mommy in the beginning of our relationship, I guess.

Nick (85:04)

What do you call that?

Jessica (85:04)

I knew.

Nick (85:04)

I'm curious what you mean by that, in a sense, because, like, you know, I have a great relationship with my mom. Mom. You know, I've really counted on her for emotional support at times, you know, but where. Where do you feel like it got it? It goes from a healthy emotional support system, from a parent in a. In a time of need to just being a crutch, so to speak, where it gets a little like, hey, you.

Christina (85:30)

You know, I think there were no boundaries with his mom growing up. So, like, he would tell her every little thing that he did wrong or felt guilty about, or if he had, like, thoughts that were not, you know, like, good, he would go to her and she would always settle him down and say, don't worry, you're okay. You're not a bad boy. You can. She took care of everything for him. She did his homework. She cleaned up after him. And so it's like these days, every little thing that comes up, he has used me as that for. To get comfort and validation. But then when I go through a hard time, like since having our daughter three years ago, and I come to him, needing him for support, it's just a lot of emotional stability or just shutting down. And it has made me feel very alone. Like, I can't open up to him or support him. But whenever he has a hard day or, you know, he's going through drama with work or friendships, he's calling me, and it seems like he can't regulate himself.

Nick (86:40)

It's tough. You know, it's like, you can't help people who don't want to help themselves.

Christina (86:45)

Yeah, exactly. It's just a tough realization. I don't regret having our daughter with him. Like, I wouldn't change anything, and I love our daughter so much. But I do sometimes wish that I could just go back in time and experience the dating world in college and see what. What worked for me, learn more about myself, allow him to learn more about himself and how he wants to show up in a Marriage, Because I think we just got married because that's what you do when you're 20. And like, we both grew up in the church and everything. And so it was just the next step. You get married. And I don't think we really took into account, like, what does having a wife and being a husband mean to you? Is it honor? Is it respect? Is it protection and. And love and all of these values that you say that you want? Like, you want a woman who is nurturing and loving and emotionally supportive in the heartbeat of your home, but are you actually setting her up to feel that way and be able to be that for you?

Nick (87:57)

Yeah. It sounds like you feel like you know where this is going and you're kind of just not sure. It's almost like you're looking for a sign or permission to move on.

Christina (88:09)

You might be right on that. I don't know. I'm somebody who is. So, like, when I make a decision, I want to make sure that it's the right one. And so I think I do kind of wear things out a little too far to just ensure I need to just, I think, listen to my own voice and trust myself and let go of the maybe perfectionism of having like a perfect core family unit and the dream of having it all be together. Or I need to maybe just. I mean, part of me is like, is there anything that I can do? Which maybe not, and this is just me being a control freak again, but is there anything that I can do to make this dynamic work and like, help him? I feel like I just want it to work so bad and I feel like there's gotta be something that I can do more to give it a chance.

Nick (89:13)

Maybe not. I mean, like, even for example, like when I was playing devil's advocate and I was like, why can't he just be a stay at home dad and you be the breadwinner? And you're like, I don't want to do that. Which is a totally. It's your prerogative not to want to do that. But even if that's what you wanted to do, it still doesn't work. If he, if, if he, if you feel still very alone in the emotional support pro. You know, it's just like being a stay at home dad for all the stay at home dads out there. You know, there's some great stay at home dads who take care of the household and, you know, help raise the kids. Mom's working. And yet that, you know, he still takes care of you, still is emotional Support still lets you know when things gonna be okay, you know, like, it's not like for the stay at home moms and stay at home dads, that's all they're doing is like playing Cinderella. They still need to be, you know, you can still be the man of the house and be the stay at home dad. You can still, you know, take care of your family, you know, and if all he is doing is just like babysitting your kid while you're working, and then when you get done work, you have to babysit your husband and your children, like, it doesn't, it doesn't work, you know, like, you're, you're looking, you need. You're only 30 and you need companionship and you need a support system and you can't feel alone in a relationship. And it's just like, it's like an emotional prison.

Christina (90:32)

Yeah.

Nick (90:32)

And you don't deserve that, you know?

Jessica (90:34)

Thank you.

Nick (90:35)

I think in this period of time, I think the thing you would want to practice is to not feel the guilt of not regulating your husband and not taking care of him anymore, emotionally allowing him. If he makes his choices, he goes to the casino, he gambles, whatever he does, that's his problem right now. And you really need to focus on yourself and what you're gonna need going forward to be happy and to be confident in yourself and to remind yourself that I'm gonna be okay. And this is gonna be scary. What does my support system look like if I choose to move forward with the separation and divorce? And I think right now, just really focus on what you need. And, and, and if, if by some miracle he surprises you and comes around and, and wakes up and realize, I know she's. This is it. You know, you can be surprised, but in the meantime, you know, really just start this almost new life now mentally, and then, you know, so that if you decide to like, like divorce him, it won't feel like that's the starting point emotionally, if that makes sense.

Christina (91:43)

Yes. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you.

Nick (91:46)

I hope this was helpful. I don't know. I. It's a. Yeah. I really empathize with you, and I'm sorry you're going through this and it's.

Christina (91:52)

Well, this is why we don't get married at 20.

Nick (91:57)

Fair enough. Yeah. Just give yourself grace. Yeah. I mean, you're doing a lot and you're not the bad guy. I'm sure you feel some guilt at times, you know, and he's putting you in a really shitty position to break up the Family, you know?

Jessica (92:12)

Yeah.

Nick (92:13)

And he. And he is. He is. He is using that as a way to keep you together, which is shitty. It's just like, you just. That's all you got is making your wife feel guilty about breaking up the family that you don't want to participate in. He's leaving you no choice, it sounds like.

Christina (92:30)

Okay, well, I will focus on that and try to give myself grace. I think time tells everything, and so I'm not gonna wait forever, but I do feel like I'll feel more confident with the decision eventually.

Nick (92:44)

All right, well, keep us posted how things go, especially if you enter into the dating pool. We'll be here for you. I'm sorry. Going through this, it sucks. I wish. And I feel for him, you know, I don't know what's stopping him from. From doing this, and he will certainly probably regret it someday, but that's. That's a him. That's his problem.

Christina (93:04)

Yeah.

Nick (93:04)

Listen, we make choices that we regret all the time, and I wish more people realized that. I'm sorry. I really feel for you.

Christina (93:14)

It's okay. Thank you.

Nick (93:16)

It's gonna be okay. You bet on yourself. You are resilient, I think just keeping really proud of how far you've gotten and what you've been able to get through. And then that energy, all this energy you're focused on trying to save your family right now and channeled positively going forward will set you up in a good way because hopefully you'll be able to channel that energy into more productive things, because, like, right now, you're channeling it to someone who, like, it just feels like a waste. And it's not. It's going nowhere.

Jessica (93:43)

Yeah.

Christina (93:44)

All right, thank you, Nick.

Nick (93:46)

All right, take care. Keep us posted.

Christina (93:48)

Okay.

Nick (93:48)

All right.

Christina (93:48)

Bye. Bye.

Nick (93:49)

Bye.

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Sarah (96:30)

Hi Nick, how are you? My name is Sarah, I'm 28 years old and my mom has been unfaithful to my dad throughout their marriage, and now I am stuck in the middle of their divorce.

Nick (96:41)

Okay, well, how. Where do you want to start?

Sarah (96:45)

Okay, so there's a lot of information, like, so much information. They were married for 25 years, and they met when they were very young, when they were both on vacation. My mom was, like, 19. My dad was, like, 22. And at the time, they lived in two separate countries, so they were long distance for two years. And then my dad decided to move across the country to, you know, pursue this relationship with my mom. So they ended up dating for, like, three years, and then they got married. They had me and my brother. I have a younger brother. I had a great childhood. I didn't really start noticing any issues up until I was, like, 13 years old. So when I was 13 years old, I found a message on my mom's phone. And I obviously, I didn't know who it was or it was kind of like a flirty message. I don't know. I just. I didn't take it. I just put it away. I put it aside. And that night I heard them arguing. So apparently my mom was, I guess, having an emotional affair at that time. I didn't know if it was just an emotional affair or if it was also a physical affair. I don't know because I only saw that message.

Nick (97:50)

You're also only 13?

Sarah (97:52)

Yeah, I was only 13 as well. And then I think after that, things just settled down and I really didn't hear anything much. I would notice them arguing, you know, here and there. I noticed that there was no more, like, respect, love, trust in the relationship anymore. I feel like my dad didn't really trust my mom after that, and he kind of never forgave her and really just treated her poorly. And I just saw that the love had faded. There was no more respect. There was no more love. They both kind of just lived as roommates.

Nick (98:26)

Okay. So now they're getting divorced.

Sarah (98:29)

So. Yeah. So we can fast forward to now. So I've. I've actually been telling them to get a divorce for years now because I've. I've noticed them both being happy. And I'm like, look, your kids are grown now. If you're unhappy, just. Just get a divorce. So I actually sat down with my dad three years ago and I told him. I was like, look, whether you get a divorce or you go to therapy, because I can see that you both are unhappy. I know that there's been issues in the past, obviously, at this Point I've only known of. This was one, you know, part that my mom had been unfaithful. And my mom actually did admit to me that she was unfaithful to my dad a couple years ago. And my dad, as well, told me that there were some things that I didn't know that shifted the relationship. But I. I only knew about this one time. So my dad was like, no, I'm content. He told me he was content and he was unhappy, but he didn't feel the need to get a divorce or he didn't really. He felt like his life was fine. I should also mention that, like, my dad is a very social guy, and my mom is a very, like, introverted woman, and they lived two separate lives. Like, my dad has his friends, my mom has her friends. So I come from a Hispanic household, which they don't believe in therapy. We basically don't like to talk about our feelings and brush everything under the rug. They don't like to talk about uncomfortable things. So my dad does not believe in therapy. He did not want to go to therapy. He's a very, like, stubborn and prideful man, and he's always like, well, I don't need to go to therapy. I don't need people telling me what I already know. That was his. His excuse to not go to therapy. However, I talked to my mom, and I did convince my mom to actually go to therapy because three years ago, I came out to my mom and I wanted her to have someone to talk to about this while I was also still pushing her to talk about, you know, her marriage. And I'm sure she has a lot of childhood trauma as well that she had not worked through. So the good thing is that I did end up getting my mom into therapy. So she is currently in therapy, and she has been talking to her therapist about her marriage and everything. So fast forward to now. Let's see. My mom called me and said that my dad has asked for a divorce. And at first I was like, oh, okay, cool. Finally, like, I've been telling you guys to get divorced for so long. But my mom is a very hardcore, like, people pleaser. She cares a lot about what people think about her, and she has never really been on her own. She doesn't know how to make decisions on her own. She's scared to be alone. She likes to be in her little comfortable bubble. She doesn't speak up for herself. So I'm always the one to kind of speak up for her, Right? So my dad calls me, and he basically Starts telling me that my mom had been unfaithful to him multiple times in the relationship, not just once. He didn't tell me how many times. He told me there was multiple times where my mom was talking to people. I don't know if it was through text again, I don't know if this was in person. And my dad basically had reached a point where he was like, I can't do this anymore. Like true, like I don't trust your mom at that point. I can feel like his anger and his hurt and I think he was just venting to me at that point. And he told me a lot of information that I didn't need to know as far as like, I don't know. He told me about why my mom and one of her friends stopped being friends a long time ago was because that she knew about the infidelity and decided to tell my dad bad.

Nick (102:06)

So I guess like let's. I don't mean to cut you off but I'm sure you're. You could have go on and on about.

Sarah (102:11)

Yeah, I know there's like so much information.

Nick (102:13)

I guess my question is, is like what can I help you with? You said you're stuck in the middle of a divorce. So like what is your immediate problem that you feel like I can help you out with as it relates to you? You know, because like this is you're not getting divorced. You know, like how can I help you deal with or accept your parents relationship in a productive way?

Jessica (102:33)

Right.

Sarah (102:34)

So I am, when I say stuck in the middle, I don't mean like they're fighting and I'm like mediator, like there's no fight going on. I think right now I am the only one who knows both sides of the information. I know my dad's side, I know my mom's side. And I'm trying to navigate this as neutral as possible without getting too emotionally involved because I do this thing where I'm a very empathetic person. So I feel my dad's side, I feel my mom's side and then it takes a load on me. So also I just need to establish boundaries with both of them. Like saying for example, like okay, you have your story, you have your story, but I'm also not trying to get involved and I don't need to know all of this extra information. I'm still going to treat you guys as my parents and I guess navigating with also because now family's going to get involved and like I said, my mom is not really the Best at speaking up for herself. And sometimes I have to speak up for her.

Nick (103:33)

Why?

Sarah (103:34)

I feel like sometimes she gets bullied by her own family. But I mean, that's family. Family's gonna bully you.

Nick (103:39)

Yeah. I mean, listen, I. But why do you have to be the one to do it?

Sarah (103:43)

I mean, I don't have to, but nobody else really jumps in.

Nick (103:48)

I mean, is she. Is your mom that helpless?

Sarah (103:51)

No. I mean, I guess it depends. Especially like right now during the holidays, like, where, you know, we're getting together and everyone's going to be asking, like, oh, where's. Where's this person? Or where's. Yeah. And my mom's probably just gonna freeze up and not know what to say, so.

Nick (104:06)

Well, I mean, yeah, but like, what, are you supposed to be by her side to, like, speak for her?

Sarah (104:11)

No, I. I'm trying to teach her how to speak up for herself as well. My dad has currently, like, moved out of the house. I'm making sure that my mom is still in therapy and is still talking to her therapist because I want her to truly talk about everything and why she did the things that she did so she can truly, like, understand. Because, I mean, I don't know how many times or why she was unfaithful to my dad.

Nick (104:38)

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm sure, like, how long were your parents married for?

Sarah (104:42)

25 years.

Nick (104:43)

It's a long time. You know, like, it's. And there's probably a lot you don't know. I don't know why your mom did that. Not cool that she did that. And I'm not saying there was an excuse, a reason why to do it, to justify your mom. But like, this is a 25 year year marriage and they probably both have a lot of things that they did or didn't do that hurt each other. So. Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's. You're not their therapist, right. And you're not their parent and you're not, like, you can only do so much. I think the most you can do is probably just keep letting your mom and your dad know that you love them and you are always gonna be there for them and accept them, who they are. Whatever faults they have, remind them they both deserve to be happy. And yeah, I think it's great that you're supporting your mom, that she's in therapy and, and, and, you know, hey, I'm really proud of you. I know that's not easy to do. I hope that you find it helpful. It's not Your job to, like. All right, so what'd you talk about in therapy? Did you. It's not your job to, like, review it with her and make sure she learns and guide her through it. Like, you can only do so much.

Sarah (105:54)

My mom did tell me that she feels like she, or when she first got married, she feels like she was never allowed to make any decisions. Like, she always had someone to make decisions for her. So I don't, I honestly don't think that she wanted to get married. I think she was kind of, like, forced into this marriage. And, and I think that my, my mom, my dad, they had a connection for sure, like, especially, like, when they were young, but my mom never really. One of the main major complaints about my dad was that he wasn't getting what he needed from her. My. My desire.

Nick (106:25)

Why are you hearing these complaints about each other from your parents?

Sarah (106:29)

Yeah, because they just feel the need to tell me all these things. Because.

Nick (106:33)

But you said earlier that you think that you need better boundaries with mom and dad.

Sarah (106:37)

That right.

Nick (106:38)

I would agree.

Sarah (106:39)

I would, because I allow them to. Just.

Nick (106:41)

I think it's natural in a divorce when kids are involved. It makes sense to want your kids to see your point of view or take your side. I think that's probably pretty common and normal in divorces.

Jessica (106:55)

Yeah.

Sarah (106:55)

I think that's why my dad told me a lot of information was because he wanted me to see, like, his perspective and why he decided to leave, which fair. But also, I didn't need to know all that.

Nick (107:06)

Yeah. And I think that's something you need to, like, say to both mom and dad, where it's just like, listen, I didn't even exist when you guys first met. I'm glad you guys had us. I appreciate it. I'm glad you guys got married. I, I, you know, this is your life. And I'm sure this is very term, you know, but, like, I love you both. I love you both equally. I am sad for the both of you, but I've said this to both of you before. This is probably the best decision. I am not taking sides. You probably both have hurt each other over the years. It's not going to change how I feel about you guys as my mom and my f. My dad and I, I agree that you guys probably shouldn't be together, but, like, I'm not gonna take sides. And to that end, I'm not your therapist. I don't honestly want to hear you guys talk about the other person. Like, I'm not doubting that maybe you guys have Hurt each other. But, like. Like, I need you guys to find other people than me to vent about that, because, honestly, it's just like. Like, I don't want to unpack. Like, what are you gonna do? Hearing your mom be like, I never. I didn't want to get married. I didn't get. You know, like, I don't know. It's 25 years ago, too, and, like, you know, actually, it was to, like, the 2000s, so it's not like, it wasn't, like, 1950, but whatever it is, like, why. Why your mom felt the way she did. You're not here to unpack her childhood trauma. Like, you. You recognize that your mom probably has some. You have empathy for your mom, and that's quite honestly, all your parents need to know. It's like, mom, I have a ton of empathy for you, and, like, you probably didn't have some of the privileges that I had because you. You know, despite you and dad not being compatible, I appreciate the childhood I have. I love you both. You both have been overall great parents to me, and I love you, and I'm. I'm grateful for that. I am sad you guys couldn't work it out. But, like, I'm not your therapist, and, like, I. I want you guys both to be happy, but you can't talk about the other person. Me. I'm not the person for you guys to go to. To do that. I'm not here to solve your problems. You know, Like, I can't. I'm here. You know, I want to be supportive, but if supporting you is listening to you talk about my dad or my mom, like, I. I don't want to be that person. It's not fair to your kids to.

Sarah (109:08)

Let them know that I still love them. And, you know, it's not my responsibility to unpack all of this trauma or relationship with them.

Nick (109:17)

Yeah. I mean, that's really what it comes down to.

Sarah (109:20)

Yeah. So my mom doesn't really. She vents a lot to me because she doesn't talk to anyone about this. She doesn't talk to her friends about this. She doesn't talk to her family about this. And I always ask, like, why? Like, you don't have. I mean, she has best friends. She has friends from childhood. And I was like, why don't you talk to your friends? Or. And I think she has, again, that trauma from that one friend that she did trust and then went to tell my dad. So I guess that's our reasoning for not telling her friends and then the reasoning for not.

Nick (109:48)

Well, There's a difference between being like, I'm cheating on my husband, don't tell anyone, versus, like, I'm going through a divorce, and I'd love some support from a friend. And, and, and yeah, I think her.

Sarah (109:59)

Fear is she fears getting judged by others, and she, she cares about.

Nick (110:04)

That's why she's got a therapist. You know, you pay a therapist to, to, to listen.

Sarah (110:10)

You know, you're being honest with your therapist and talking through everything with your therapist, because I told her that her therapist is not there to judge her and is there to listen to her and to give her advice. And she claims that she is talking to her therapist about all of these things and unpacking her marriage and her trauma. So I'm hoping that her therapist is helping her, but she is still, like, very just stressed and lost because she feels that she, now that she's alone, she has to make decisions for herself. Right? So she has never made decisions for herself. She doesn't know how to basically pay the electric bill, for example, like, tiny little things like that. She's scared to kind of take initiative and now kind of be on her own. She has to learn how to be on her own. She has to learn how to, how to do things on her own. Because my dad is not there anymore.

Nick (111:01)

My dad's gonna, I mean, if you want to help your mom, like, you could help with that.

Christina (111:04)

That.

Sarah (111:05)

Yeah, exactly. And I told her, I was like, I can pay. I can help you set up a payment or not pay.

Nick (111:10)

But, like, you know, you could help teach your mom things she doesn't know how to. I'm assuming you have. You're an independent person, you know, like, you can do all these things you're describing your mom can't do. And again, like, you can be there for your mom. You can check on mom. You can support mom. You can. When your mom is scared about the future, you can remind her that, you know, like, this is a tough period she's going through, but there's a lot at the end of the tunnel, and, like, there are more fish in the sea or whatever it is. All you have to make sure that you, you, you enforce a boundary is like, you're not here to listen to mom and dad talk about each other, whether intentional or not. They're kind of asking you to take sides, you know, and mom needs to hear. It's just like, listen, I'm not judging you. I, I, I love you no matter what. Dad obviously is hurt, but, like, listen, I still think deep down you guys probably shouldn't be married. So I'm glad that this is happening, even though it's scary and painful and sad. But, like, this is probably for the best. And, mom, if you need help with anything about how to do stuff, I'm here for you, you know? And you can hang out more if she's feeling lonely. You can spend some quality time with Mom. It. All it is is just making sure that you're not there to listen to the other person talk shit or unpack shit that you're like. I did not need to know that about you guys. Like, I'm not here. I don't even know what I'm supposed to do with this information other than to just feel shittier about both of you, you know? And I don't want to feel that way about that. If you don't want to tell your friends, that's fine, but you shouldn't be telling me. And nothing is going to change. Mom and dad, how I love you. You're not benefiting anyone by telling me.

Sarah (112:43)

Yeah, so my dad actually did mention that he was still, to this day, finding, like, messages and stuff.

Nick (112:49)

Why is your dad still looking? I mean, he's divorcing her.

Sarah (112:51)

Well, this is like, before he. This was like the final draw.

Nick (112:54)

But I guess my point is it's like, dad, I'm really sorry mom did that to you, and that must suck, and I. You didn't deserve that. It's not going to change how I feel about Mom. She is my mom. She's been a good mom to me. She maybe wasn't a good wife to you. I am. You know, you're. You're probably making the right decision about you guys divorcing. I've said this before. You guys don't make a great couple. I don't need to hear it. I don't need to hear all the juicy details of what mom did. I'm never going to think less of her. I'm not going to hate her. I'm not going to love you more. I'm not going to love her less. I love you guys the same. I'm glad you're making the decision, but, like, do not talk shit to me about Mom.

Sarah (113:29)

I don't know. Because my parents are very sensitive. So anytime I try to, like, set boundaries or tell them, hey, I don't even know this information. I don't want to. I don't want them to not trust me or, I don't know. I need to say it in, like.

Nick (113:41)

A very trust you. What does trust have to do with kind way.

Sarah (113:44)

Like they're no longer able to come for to me with information or if.

Nick (113:49)

They don't want them to come to you with this information to me.

Sarah (113:53)

Yeah, I know.

Nick (113:53)

Well, because you allow it to happen.

Sarah (113:56)

Yeah, you're right. So I think I just need to be able to learn how to set.

Nick (114:00)

You're giving him a false sense of, you know, and, and maybe you are. You're giving them what they clearly want or maybe a little bit and. But you're suffering in the meantime because you're feeling a certain way. You're. It gives you kind of an icky feeling about the other parent and it's not your, it's not your problem to solve. Like I'm here for you mom and dad and I'm. I'm willing to step up in ways and as you guys get older and I get older, I. I even want to take care of you.

Sarah (114:23)

You.

Nick (114:23)

But when it comes to. I'm not going to take sides.

Sarah (114:26)

Right. So I do have a brother and he doesn't know anything. So I'm the only one who I guess knows all of this information. So I'm technically am alone in this. So I can't even speak to my brother about things because he doesn't know.

Nick (114:36)

Anything and he shouldn't need to know.

Sarah (114:37)

Yeah, good. Exactly. I'm like, I'm glad he doesn't know anything because I feel like if he did know he would immediately take sides. And I think that's why they trust me in telling me all these things because they know that I am more mature and more empathetic and can kind of see things clearer versus my brother would just like react in an angry way and just probably take my dad's side or something. So I feel like completely alone in this because again, I don't have anyone to talk to about it. I am sitting with all of these emotions, their emotions and my emotions.

Nick (115:03)

Are you, are you in therapy?

Sarah (115:05)

Yes, Yes I am. So I do talk to my therapist about this all the time and yeah, she's basically telling me that like I have to set better boundaries with them because it's getting to the point where it's affecting me negatively because I, I'm an overthinker. I worry, I worry too much and I feel all of these emotions all at once ones plus my own. And I'm also like dealing with my own stuff. So it's just like all combined into one. So yeah, it's been very emotionally and mentally heavy for me taking all of this in and not knowing what to do with it and knowing how to navigate in a neutral way and not getting too involved because I also don't want to get involved either. Like, I don't want to be mediator. I don't want to be like, sometimes my mom will be like, tell your dad this, this, this. And I'm like, no, I'm not.

Nick (115:49)

You need to nip it in the bud, so to speak. Doesn't mean you have to cut them off. It doesn't mean you have to talk to them less. It's just, you can even talk to them more. It's just letting mom and dad know that you love them unconditionally. And maybe there's a fear they both maybe are feeling anxious about that. So maybe they just really need to hear that. Maybe it's just like a cry for help from both of them. So give them what they need, which is like, maybe just that validation and support while simultaneously enforcing the boundary. So, like, mom, just, you know, I. I'm here to help you move forward. I'm here if you want to talk. But I. I cannot talk with you about Dad.

Sarah (116:23)

I don't want to hear it anymore in a nice way because I. I done. I don't want to hear about you.

Nick (116:27)

Just say, I'm not. I. It. I am not here for you to vent to me about Dad. I am not going to pick sides. And just so you know, I'm telling dad the same thing. It's not fair to me for you guys to vent to me about how you feel about each other. I. There's things I just don't want or need to hear. It's not going to change how I feel about you. I hope that neither of you want me to think less of the other person. That's all. That's my only real boundary. So you need to stop talking about the other person because there's nothing I'm going to do or can do. And honestly, that makes that affects my relationship with both you in a negative way.

Sarah (117:04)

Yeah, I think that's exactly what I mean.

Nick (117:06)

That's probably true. You probably actually think less of the parent talking in the moment they're talking the. Rather than the person they're trying to get you to think less of.

Sarah (117:15)

Of course it makes me feel some type of way either way. Like, I don't need to know all of this information. I don't want to look at them differently. Like, I don't. They're still like my parents, and I love them no matter what. And I don't Want to. I don't want to see them any differently, and I don't need to know any of their issues.

Jessica (117:31)

And.

Nick (117:32)

Yeah, so that's what you need to. That's. That's what you need to say to them.

Sarah (117:36)

Yeah. Because I don't think I've emphasized, like, how much is actually affecting me, like, listening to all of this stuff. Like, I. I sometimes I just, like, let them talk, and if I cut them off or. Actually, I have cut my dad off one time, I actually was like, you know what? I Like, I can't. I can't listen to this. I can't. Like, I need you to stop because it's. I'm not in the right mindset to intake all of this information. And he got really mad. Not really mad, but he was, like, very sensitive about it, and let him.

Nick (118:03)

Be sensitive about it, thinking that I.

Sarah (118:05)

Didn'T want to hear him out anymore.

Nick (118:07)

But just make sure when you. Make sure when you enforce that boundary that you add the affection or the love, you know, like. Because again, like, you know, you could say in a way that makes him feel like you're taking Mom's side or that you're not interested in the pain he's feeling. So you have to say, like, dad, I know. Like, I. I can't. I don't know what it's like to be in your shoes, but I know it's really hard, and I'm really sad that you're going through this, and I want to be there as your daughter to, like, again. You deserve happiness. I want you to be happy. I want you to get through this. I want mom to get through this. But I am not gonna listen to you talk about my mom and mom. I'm not gonna listen to you talk about my dad. That will go a long better way than this. Like, listening your dad for 20 minutes and then cutting him off and saying, dad, I can't do this anymore.

Sarah (118:49)

Yeah, you're right. Because my dad can talk and talk and talk and talk, and he will not stop talking. And I have to figure out a nice way to kind of cut him off while not.

Nick (119:01)

Well, don't. Don't even let him go there, you know? Like, that's the thing. You let. You let him. You let him ramble for 20 minutes, he thinks you're listening to him, and then you cut him off and shut it down without acknowledging anything he said. So that's going to make him feel a certain way and then have him be reactive rather than being like dad before you even start. I need to just, like, set some ground rules. I. I accept that as an adult. You and mom are humans, just like me. And you've made mistakes. I don't need to hear all of them.

Sarah (119:29)

Yeah.

Nick (119:29)

And you're not a perfect person. She's not a perfect person. And I'm not here to re litigate that. And unless you, like. Do you want me to hate my mom?

Sarah (119:35)

Yeah.

Nick (119:36)

No, I don't think you do. You know, you can say that's about your dad. And, like, that's what I'm putting a stop to. But I love you. I appreciate everything you've done for me. I'm always gonna love you. I'm always gonna be your daughter. I'm always gonna be here for you. Like, you gotta add that to the part.

Sarah (119:48)

Yeah.

Nick (119:49)

You know?

Sarah (119:50)

Okay. Yeah. I think that's what I don't do now.

Nick (119:53)

So you kind of sheepishly just call, answer the phone, let them vent for 20 minutes where you have to listen to them play therapist for a moment and then finally, like, cut them off and say, I can't do it. Like, you know what I'm saying? Huge difference between what I'm suggesting and what you're doing.

Sarah (120:10)

Okay, try that next time. If they try to actually tell me more information, I'm sure they will. Yeah.

Nick (120:19)

And if they don't, great, problem solved. But in the meantime, if they don't, be sure to, you know, encourage them to be there for them. To, you know, assume that they are probably scared and worried and lonely and check in on them and make sure they're doing okay. Or especially with your mom, you know, your dad's these extroverts. You know, he's got his friends. Your mom's a little more introverted. She's probably. It's easier for her to isolate. So maybe take your mom out and check on her and treat her and get your nails done or whatever it is that you and your mom enjoy doing together and spend some quality time. Time. But while you're doing that, make sure you're enforcing that boundary that quality time with your mom isn't permission for her to talk about dad.

Sarah (120:55)

That makes sense.

Nick (120:56)

Cool.

Sarah (120:57)

That's cool.

Nick (120:58)

All right. Yeah, I'll take care. I appreciate you.

Sarah (121:01)

Thank you, Nick. Have a great day.

Nick (121:02)

All right. Bye.

Jessica (121:02)

Bye.

Sarah (121:14)

Foreign.

Nick (121:17)

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