E1064 Ask Nick - Pregnant and He Cheated with an Escort

Summary

The Viall Files – E1064 "Ask Nick: Pregnant and He Cheated with an Escort"

Date: January 19, 2026
Host: Nick Viall
Co-hosts/Household: Natalie Joy, Kayla
Featured Callers: Taylor, Alyssa, Kayla (different), various

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Episode Overview

This "Ask Nick" episode of The Viall Files dives into complex and emotional relationship dilemmas faced by three callers. The primary themes are infidelity, emotional affairs, childhood trauma, boundaries in family relationships, and the struggle for self-worth and healing in the wake of betrayal. Host Nick Viall brings empathy and candid advice as he and the callers untangle the often messy realities behind relationship breakdowns, repair, and the vital importance of personal accountability and growth.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Cheating During Pregnancy: Taylor’s Story

(Taylor, 32, 02:48–30:10)

Background

• Taylor is pregnant with her third child when she discovers her husband’s infidelity — specifically, that he cheated with an escort during a work trip to Canada.
• The infidelity was discovered accidentally via browser history on his computer, following her intuition that "something was off."
• The husband was surprisingly honest, admitting not only to the encounter but that he had planned to repeat the behavior upon return if he wasn’t caught.

Discussion Highlights

• The “Why” of Cheating:
  Taylor’s husband has a history of sexual abuse, causing him to develop a complicated relationship with sex. He finds physical intimacy with emotional partners difficult, feeling more “in control” with strangers.
  • “He unfortunately had a history of sexual abuse when he was a kid…so sex has always been something that's been very difficult in our relationship.” – Taylor [07:24]
• Therapeutic Insight vs. Excuse:
  Nick discusses the balance between understanding trauma as an explanation versus using it as a cop-out for destructive actions.
  • "It doesn't make it...her forgivable...But he has to be held accountable and right his wrongs." – Nick [10:43]
• Taylor’s Position:
  She struggles with forgiving versus moving on and is now more focused on whether she can rebuild trust, rather than whether to stay or go.
  • “I'm questioning if I can trust him again, if I can get to that point of doing it again. But I am a classic ruminator...” – Taylor [20:08]
• Path Forward:
  Nick encourages transparency, accountability, and a “fresh-start” mindset if Taylor decides to stay— emphasizing that the excuse of trauma runs out after awareness and must translate into meaningful change.
  • Suggests watching Esther Perel’s TED Talk on infidelity for perspective.
    • “If you decide to stay...you have to find the ability to deal with what happened and work through it, while simultaneously, almost in a way, start your relationship over.” – Nick [15:20]

Notable Quotes

• “Incredibly honest for a liar.” – Nick, on her husband’s confession [06:05]
• “Now that he knows it...it's harder for it to be an excuse going forward.” – Nick [29:44]
• “I think you might not be able to trust him yet. But I think you can still trust yourself.” – Nick [20:44]

Key Timestamps

• [02:48] Taylor introduces her story
• [04:24] Taylor confronts her husband
• [07:24] Trauma and its impact
• [10:04] Nick asks about feeling loved/cared for
• [12:24] Discussing accountability and the path forward
• [17:21] Sex life dynamics, triggers, and control
• [20:08] Taylor's focus on trust and self-rumination
• [25:20] Is the timing ("why then") of cheating significant?
• [28:39] Taylor still feels safe
• [30:09] Episode wraps Taylor’s call

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2. Emotional Affairs & Uncertain Marriages: Alyssa’s Story

(Alyssa, 35, 33:34–83:09)

Background

• Alyssa’s husband had an emotional affair with a much younger woman during a period of detachment in their marriage.
• Their relationship began at 19; two children (now 8 and 9); husband works away from home for 16 days at a time.
• Recently, the husband moved out to a separate rental, without warning, citing the need for "peace and calmness."

Discussion Highlights

• Avoidant Behaviors & Power Dynamics:
  Alyssa's husband repeatedly distances himself (emotionally and physically), is financially controlling, and struggles with accepting that Alyssa has changed and is in therapy.
  • “He’s the one who's unhappy, his boundaries are not being respected...You’re responding to his choices.” – Nick [51:27]
• Progress and Hope:
  Alyssa is more emotionally resilient; her husband is only now starting individual therapy. Nick expresses concern that boundaries are not reciprocal and Alyssa is stuck in “emotional purgatory.”
  • “I don't think you should wait six months for him to shit and get off the pot.” – Nick [67:46]
• Boundaries & Self-Preservation:
  Nick advises Alyssa to reclaim her power—set more boundaries, prepare for the possibility of single motherhood, and stop letting “hope” and fear dictate her self-worth.
  • “You are living the life of a single mom…don't lose your power and don't...just sit around waiting for your husband to decide your future.” – Nick [64:29, 61:51]
• Comparisons to Past “Ask Nick” Couples:
  Alyssa draws parallels to reality TV couples from previous episodes, especially Jesse & Jordan, acknowledging her own accountability and growth but doubting her husband's willingness or capacity to do the same.
  • “In this moment, I have more hope for that relationship [Taylor’s] than I have for yours.” – Nick [61:49]

Notable Quotes

• “None of that really makes sense.” – Nick, on her husband's justification for moving out [46:29]
• “I'm not a fool…I’m already being a single mom.” – Alyssa [75:44]
• “Wait and see is not a strategy…I think the big takeaway is you need to start demonstrating more strength and confidence yourself.” – Nick [76:37, 81:04]

Key Timestamps

• [33:34] Alyssa tells her story
• [36:42] Couples counseling perspective
• [43:55] Alyssa’s biggest fears
• [50:22] Husband’s slow therapy journey
• [51:27] Nick: Power dynamics
• [61:49] Nick: Comparing hope in relationships
• [67:46] Timelines & deadlines are “bullshit”
• [74:22] Nick: Reclaim your time when he takes kids
• [76:37] Discussing legal rights & self-protection
• [81:04] Nick’s closing advice: show strength

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3. Mother-Daughter Boundaries: Kayla’s Story

(Kayla, 34, 86:08–111:25)

Background

• Kayla’s mother frequently trashes her dad in front of her, despite Kayla’s repeated boundary-setting.
• The relationship dynamic involves manipulation, guilt-tripping, and emotional withdrawal by her mother, leading Kayla to acquiesce to keep peace (the “silent treatment”).
• Her mom’s behavior has gone unchecked for decades within the family.

Discussion Highlights

• Parental Manipulation & Standing Up to Bullies:
  Nick highlights that Kayla’s mom is the “main character” and a bully, accustomed to winning standoffs with emotional force—Kayla capitulates to maintain the relationship.
  • “Your mom's comfortable with discomfort, and your mom's comfortable with confrontation in a way that the people around her aren't.” – Nick [89:48]
• Enforcing Boundaries:
  It is not about "saying it right" but about having more conviction than her mother, refusing to give in to manipulation, and allowing her mom to experience consequences for disrespecting boundaries.
  • “You need to find the strength not to give in…You're not enforcing your boundaries when it comes to that.” – Nick [88:49, 101:28]
• Relational Dynamics & Change:
  Kayla must detach emotionally from the guilt cycle, accept that enforcing boundaries will entail real (and likely severe) discomfort, but that her mom needs her and will eventually adjust.
  • “This doesn't get solved without your mom getting really mad at you and...you going through a period of your mom not talking to you.” – Nick [107:48]

Notable Quotes

• “Your mom clearly has the strength to give you the silent treatment…And she's so good at it that everyone...just keeping the peace...Your mom always wins.” – Nick [89:48]
• “The idea that your mom can't comprehend you saying...she can't comprehend why her daughter doesn't want to hear that ... I don’t know.” – Nick [99:53]
• “It is not your mom's job...to enforce your boundaries. You do.” – Nick [101:05]

Key Timestamps

• [86:08] Kayla shares her issue
• [87:30] Mom bullies dad in front of Kayla
• [88:49] Nick: This isn’t about creative phrasing
• [89:48] Power dynamics and the “main character”
• [101:28] Enforcing vs. requesting boundaries
• [107:48] Facing the discomfort of boundary enforcement

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Most Memorable Lines & Moments

• “Incredibly honest for a liar.” – Nick, on the “brutal candor” of Taylor’s husband [06:05]
• “If you decide to stay...you’re choosing to be in this relationship, you’re choosing to work through it. And that is a choice...You do not have to stay in this relationship.” – Nick [16:15]
• “You're living the life of a single mom...don’t lose your power.” – Nick to Alyssa [64:29, 61:51]
• “Mom, you can talk to me about everything, even about Dad, but it’s how you talk about him…I’m just asking you to respect my dad.” – Nick coaching Kayla [95:13]
• “I think you need to start demonstrating more strength and confidence in yourself. Shame and fear and pity aren’t gonna work on him.” – Nick (to Alyssa) [76:37]
• “Your mom is really good at centering her feelings over everyone else.” – Nick [106:02]

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Overall Episode Takeaways

• Trauma’s Role: Trauma provides context, but not excuse, for destructive behavior. True repair must involve accountability and willingness to change.
• Clear Boundaries & Power: Those who repeatedly capitulate (in marriages or family dynamics) often “lose agency”—finding personal boundaries and standing firm is essential, even at the cost of temporary discomfort.
• Hope vs. Action: Hoping for relationship change is not a plan; consistent, meaningful action (in therapy, transparency, day-to-day accountability) is essential.
• Self-Worth: Each caller is encouraged to focus less on their partner/parent’s needs and more on their own—self-trust, resilience, and clarity.

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Resource Recommendations

• Esther Perel’s TED Talk ("Rethinking Infidelity") – For understanding why partners might stray and how couples rebuild.
• Therapy (individual & couples) – For trauma recovery, accountability, and new relationship patterns.

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For listeners: This episode provides a blueprint for navigating infidelity, emotional detachment, and manipulative family relationships. Nick Viall’s blend of realism and empathy, with periodic tough love, offers actionable advice and emotional validation—reminding listeners that, in every relationship, their boundaries, self-worth, and healing come first.

Transcript

[Nick]

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[Kayla]

You're crazy.

[Nick]

Don't forget Vile Files. Plus now offers ad free episodes for all Vile Files episodes including Ask Nick Reality Recap and Going Deeper. Plus, if you love Ask Nick, you will absolutely love our Ask Nick Updates where you get updates of your favorite calls, our Deep Dive on all your your favorite reality recap TV shows, and our pop Culture Roundups where we talk about all your favorite pop culture topics that we didn't get to in this week's episode. Plus Deep Dives on our Going Deeper guest and so much more. It's free to sign up. All you have to do is go to Vi files plus and you will be lucky you did. How's it going?

[Taylor]

Hi, Nick, I am Taylor. I am 32 years old and I am pregnant with his third baby and he cheated on me with an escort.

[Nick]

Wow. Well, I'm very sorry to hear that. Yeah.

[Taylor]

Thank you.

[Nick]

It's been rough. I mean, I hate to ask but like, how are you doing?

[Taylor]

I'm better now. It's been like six or seven weeks.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Taylor]

I've had time to think it through a little bit, but yeah, I mean, every day is up and down for sure.

[Nick]

How did you find out and where does he stand?

[Taylor]

So he went on a work trip to Canada. So out of the country. And, and this was back in October. He came back, he seemed a little off and truly the only thing I can chalk it up to is like he was more short tempered and had less patience and that was basically it. Otherwise he was acting the same. And then I actually found out because I was trying to book a hotel through my computer, my computer died. So I used his computer and this was a few weeks after. And we have always used each other's phones, use each other's computers. And I tell you, Nick, I've never done this, but I had some feeling in me that something was off and something was wrong. So I went through the history and just the, you know, the week that he was gone, I didn't see anything. So I felt bad that I was even looking. And then I just looked one day earlier and I saw he was looking up searches for escorts in the area that he would be in. So I thought that our biggest issue was going to be the fact that he just looked it up. I didn't truly think he went through with it.

[Nick]

So how did you confront him?

[Taylor]

I got him up because he had fallen asleep at that point. I got him up and I said to him, you have one chance and one chance only to tell me the truth what happened? And that's all I said. I didn't say when you were in Canada. I didn't say anything else. I just said, you have one chance to tell me the truth. And I will say he was very forthcoming. Like I said, I thought, I thought he was just going to say he looked it up. He told me exactly what happened. He told me probably more details than I wanted to know. But I had asked him, what did.

[Nick]

He, what did he tell you? He.

[Taylor]

So he told me that he met up with the escort in Canada when he was gone. And they had been messaging for a couple weeks.

[Nick]

Couple weeks?

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

How does this. I mean, I. Not familiar with this process. Is this like a website? Like, what was the. What did you find? Like, I didn't. Yeah, I didn't know there's like. Like in Canada of all places. Like.

[Taylor]

I know, I know. So the website, or he had just done Google searches for escorts in the area. Turns out just like.

[Nick]

Yeah, I guess just like website.

[Taylor]

Yeah. Then they connect via email and they chat back and forth. And it's more of just like negotiation of what they're gonna. How they're gonna pay for their services and stuff like that. So he had told me that he started looking up in September and August, which at that point was by far the roughest month of my pregnancy. I mean, I was down. Down bad. So that obviously hurt a little bit more. And then he told me that he had set up or was going to set up another one once he got back. So before I. If I didn't catch him, he would have gone through with it again in our state, in our town.

[Nick]

Incredibly honest for a liar.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

Yes.

[Nick]

I mean, what do you make. I mean, you don't. You know him. I don't know him at all. But that is, I'm not, I'm not giving him any props, but it is.

[Taylor]

No, totally.

[Nick]

It is almost shocking how honest that is. He could have probably just left a.

[Taylor]

Lot of the details out. Yeah. No, it helps. It helps to know that he was more honest.

[Nick]

What's his. Why?

[Taylor]

He's still trying to figure that out in therapy.

[Nick]

Well, but does he have an answer now?

[Taylor]

Yes and no.

[Nick]

So I, you know, it's, you know, listen, I, It's. I'm a huge advocate of therapy.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Like, I know there's a lot of truth to what we learn in therapy when it comes to our childhood traumas and our reasons why we act out in certain situations that can be damaging to ourselves and to the people we love. But that, you know, it doesn't make it like. I don't. It's not a cop out, but there's still a level of, like, you know, before you go to therapy and hear why your therapist explains to you why you did something that, like, would be more digestible for your wife to hear in a way that might allow you to forgive each other and work through this. And it's in. In no way bullshit. But, like, why? Like, I want to know why you think you did it right now, right here And I just, like, want an answer.

[Taylor]

Right. So I. Yeah, he does. So he. He does. The. I guess the question I was more wondering of, like, why did he do it then? But why did he do it? He. You know, like, for triggering. For anyone who has gone through this. He unfortunately had a history of sexual abuse when he was a kid and a teenager for a while. For a long time. So sex has always been something that's been very difficult in our relationship. I will say that's the one thing that we have been trying to struggle with.

[Nick]

That's.

[Taylor]

So more than one thing he's found through therapy is that once he gets an emotional connection with someone, sex becomes a lot harder for him. He feels out of control. Feels like when it's with a random person, he can have sex, he can get up and follow through, and it's great. Like, our sex life when we first started dating, fantastic. Then once we started having that emotional connection, and I didn't know this at the time, but then it started coming, you know, then it started slowing down and getting a little bit worse. So the whole thing is that he wasn't able. I guess the why is. That's part of it. But obviously he doesn't.

[Nick]

Excuse does make a lot of. I mean, it's like the one answer. You're kind of like, I know, I know.

[Taylor]

I want to be empathetic. I am empathetic towards what he went through. Obviously, it just hurts.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, I think there's. Yeah. I mean, I. There's a lot of people who. It's a shocking amount of people who have been victims as children.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And men and women. And that does affect them, you know, they. They have very complicated relationships with sex. And. And it usually. I think. Honestly, I think a lot of people in adult life learn about it when something like this happens, you know, before, it's like, you know, as if he was. Let's say. Let's say your husband as a single man was this kind of oddly hiring escorts, which, you know, I think maybe for some guys and people out there, it's like a thing. But like, to me, it seems like something you see in movies.

[Taylor]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[Nick]

It would just be like, you know, this. Almost like this weird kind of. To his buddies be like, hey, guys. Yeah. You know, I've paid for an escort. And his buddies would be like, really, you know, like. And now it's like this thing. He's married, he's got kids, and, you know, I guess. Yeah. I'm curious how he was, you know, there's probably a lot of car part mentalization and stuff like that, or where are you in all this and what do you want to do? And what do you want to figure out?

[Taylor]

Yeah, when I first wrote in, it was more of the what do I do? Stay or go now. But since then I am. I put a lot of pressure on myself to make a decision.

[Nick]

Can I ask you a question?

[Taylor]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nick]

I'm not trying not to forget this happened because it happened for sure.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But I guess including this, do you feel loved and cared for by your husband? And do you feel like even including this that he wants to fight for this relationship? I don't mean fight for it now because of his fuck up. I mean, like, have you felt like throughout your marriage and even up into this point that you have a partner in this marriage and that you feel his love as complicated and as messy and as hurtful as the. Maybe the relationship has been over the years? But do you feel that?

[Taylor]

Yes.

[Nick]

Okay. I think that's a big deal. I think that's, I think that's a real big deal. I, you know, you'll have to decide whether you can get over this and if you guys can work through, through this as a couple, a lot will come down to is he really willing to take the accountability? Right. Because you need to know that your husband can figure this out, and you need to know that he wants to figure it out. You need to know that he's committed to figuring it out. You know, up until now, you could maybe make the argument that he maybe knew deep down there was a problem, didn't realize, didn't want to face the problem, didn't know who to really connect the problem to. But now every now, you know, now it's been addressed now, now it's front and center. Now he has to face the reality of what he did to his wife. And you may be willing to be open mind to moving forward, but like, yeah, like, it's kind of like, you know, like we were just talking about before. There's like, you're like, what could possibly be the excuse to allow me to forgive this person for doing this thing? And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, well, they're, they're victims of horrible things as children. And like, we, we as a society have a ton of empathy for that. Right. But now, you know, he still has to be held accountable and he still has to right his wrongs, so to speak. And now that he is aware of it, he can no longer, in my opinion, this is not. This is not a professional. You know, like, obviously, like, this is just my opinion, you know, And I think you probably share this. He can. No, it's like, it's. You kind of get one. I really up and here's why. And I don't know why I did this. And I'm so sorry. My therapist can explain this and I would, you know, like, I don't, you know, but he still has to now address it. He has to be committed to, like, working through this. You know what I'm saying? He really has to own this. And, you know. You know, Am I making any sense?

[Taylor]

Yeah, no, absolutely.

[Kayla]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

That's exactly how I feel. And, you know, he is it. I guess this is why it obviously hurts so much. It's because I felt like we were a team. We were. I mean, I could rely on him on anything. This came as a complete shock. I mean, as most cheating does. But this one was complete shock. But he had, like, how he has stepped up since then. I'm encouraged by the cynicist in me. Is just like, is this going to last? And obviously that's just more for time to tell.

[Nick]

Yeah. I don't know if you can answer that question now. If you stay in this relationship, there will be a sense of responsibility that you will have to claim in a way, as he goes through therapy. I'm assuming you guys will, if you're not already participate in couples therapy.

[Taylor]

Yeah. Yeah, we are.

[Nick]

I imagine you again, there's this fine line when it comes to infidelity between not blaming yourself. It's not your fault, but just looking for anything that you could have done differently to maybe help avoid this going on. And I'm guessing a lot of that will be you paying attention to certain signs or feelings of disconnect with your partner that in the past you would have otherwise just been like, I don't know, he's just having a bad day. Or, you know, but now you might need to be like, hey, are you okay? Like, are you. Are you pulling away for something? He needs to be kind of present more than you, but, like, understand, like, the why. The big picture why. Right. Is probably this, no doubt.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But he's going to have to understand his triggers. He's going to have to understand what his body's telling him when he feels whatever this feeling is. And then he's going to have to find the tools to feel comfortable, whether it's through his therapist or you or someone else to say, I'm this. The thing that has drove Me to do these things in the past, I'm feeling now, and I want to nip it in the bud before I do something foolish. You know, there probably is some. Again, he has a complicated relationship with sex. There's a trigger and there's a response that his body, his subconscious brain, obviously, like, plays a role and he still has to fight those demons. And he can, but, yeah, you can't. You'll never know. He can't guarantee you. No, you guys can't predict the future, right? I don't know. I mean, I'm not saying you're going to, but I mean, but there's a lot of people who are cheated on and eventually they're the ones who cheat. You know, I don't know, like, but my point is, like, there's a world where he could do all the work and you, you could play the role of like, well, you did this. I'm you, I, you owe me and I forgave you and I'm a hero in this story and I'm a martyr because I forgave you. And then like, you cannot deal with those emotions in a healthy way. That over, you could build resentment. And then fast forward three or four years from now, an opportunity presents itself where you make a foolish decision and cheat on him. You know, and my point of only saying that is, like, if you decide to stay in this relationship, you have to find the ability to deal with what happened, this infidelity, and work through it with him, while simultaneously, almost in a way, start your relationship over. And it you don't and you're not, you don't get to throw it in his face. You're choosing to be in this relationship, you're choosing to work through it. And that is a choice and you have the right to make that choice. You do not have to stay in this relationship. It's a shitty situation that you're in. But there are a lot of people and women, I mean, not too long ago I talked to a woman, maybe you listen to that episode where, like, her husband left her shortly after the birth of their child to go chase his tennis career and she was like, on her own, you know?

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

This is all to say, like, yes, your situation shitty. You could choose to leave. It would be difficult, no doubt. You would figure it out. But you're in, you're in this position right now where you don't have to figure that out. You have to, you have an opportunity to save the relationship, as dark as it is. But then if you choose to stay in this relationship you will have to like, again, make sure that you, you guys are, you know, it's like this is a new relationship in a way is like, this is especially specifically for him. The hope is that, like, there's like this A version of him and this B version of him, and this B version of him is him recognizing the abuse he's dealt with, the impact it's played on his relationship with sex and just all of his interpersonal relationships, specifically with his wife. And then how does he handle those triggers more effectively and healthy in the future? Because right now he didn't really have a place to handle those triggers and he just kind of resorted back to like, just what the methods he was comfortable with, which is like detach from sex and, and, and things like that.

[Taylor]

When we went to, we went to couples therapy when we first got married about our sex life, and that's when I found out about the abuse he went through. I didn't know the extent, but that's what I found out about that. But from what I learned from that is that like, he needs to feel in control. It can't be like, it has to be on his terms, positions he likes. Like, it sounds a lot of like, very selfish. But if just like you said, triggers certain things will trigger him. So it's been very mundane. But because he says he needs it. I don't, I don't know how to describe it.

[Nick]

How do you feel about it? Do you like, are you able to enjoy any perspective?

[Taylor]

I find him very attractive. I do enjoy it. I, I would like to do more, but I was okay with it because I felt fulfilled in every other aspect of our life.

[Nick]

At your comfort level, can I, like, what do you mean by more like.

[Taylor]

Different positions and not scheduling sex and not always in the bedroom and, you know, maybe doing role playing, things like that.

[Nick]

He doesn't want to.

[Taylor]

No, no. Because then that's when he feels out of control and then he feels like he'll get in his head and things like that.

[Nick]

Interesting.

[Taylor]

But when we first started dating, we did do all those exciting things. It was not scheduled, it was random in the kitchen.

[Nick]

Well, I guess, I guess all these fun things and the only reason I'm asking, and I'd be curious what an expert would say about this, it's harder for him to have sex with someone he has emotional connection with.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So my thought, my thought, maybe it's stupid is to like, can't you role play being so indifferent. Play, role play someone where he feels a little bit more Indifferent in the moment where it's kind of fun for both you and it's a little spicy. And you're not in that moment necessarily the mother of his children. And, like, the, you know, it's, you know, like he doesn't want to do that previously.

[Alyssa]

No.

[Nick]

Since when you say previously, this whole.

[Taylor]

So since this whole thing happened, prior.

[Nick]

To this happened, he never wanted to.

[Taylor]

Yes.

[Nick]

Well, that makes sense.

[Taylor]

Yes. Yes.

[Nick]

Only because, like, now he's open. Well, because you didn't know, but now I think that's the thing, is, like, you guys really need to have that open, you know, no judgment. It's like, everything's okay. Just talk to me about it, you know, it's all okay, you know?

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

For the most part.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah. I would be curious how you guys can navigate this from in. In as far as your sex life. Is there a way to. And I don't know, maybe that's too dangerous or, you know, I don't know, maybe that's playing with fire. But I feel like the good news is, as it relates to your sex life, now that the cards are on the table, so to speak, he hopefully will feel safer to just tell you what excites him or what he's comfortable with. So, yeah, I don't know. But, like, I guess it sounds like you are not questioning the stay or go part at this point.

[Taylor]

No, I'm questioning if I can trust him again, if I can get to that point of doing it again. But I am a classic ruminator, and I know that's a problem I have. I just ruminate over the same things over and over. And so that's what I'm trying to work through and go past and see what he is doing to show that he is trying to make things better.

[Nick]

Do you feel like he's disgusted with what he did?

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Taylor]

I think he's horrified.

[Nick]

I think. I think that matters.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I think you can tell.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah. I think with some people, you know, when people really aren't sorry or when they are. I don't know how to say this to you, but I think you might not be able to trust him yet. But I think you can still trust yourself. And as a ruminator, just try to be mindful of what your initial thought is and how that and how your body feels. And if. And if. When I ask you these questions, do you feel his love? Do you feel like he is in it with you? Do you feel, you know, where this does feel like, out of pocket? And in a weird way, the Trust part. Yeah, I mean, I honestly, I'm kind of blown away that he came so clean so fast. I definitely think that's a step in the right direction. I don't think he deserves any credit. Nothing. And I think if you can tell that he's really disgusted, it, you know, because I think there's a lot of people who get caught cheating who are almost like annoyed they got caught. And there's a lot of people who cheat who are very quick to play the, you know, the victims and like, well, you know, what did you want me to do? You know, like, I'm lonely and, and now you don't give me attention. And you, you know, like very. Like Thomas Sandoval during scandal.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, but women do it, you know, like a lot, a lot of people. And it's true because there's truth to it too. Like, I mean, listen, like, there's a lot of forgotten people in relationships and a lot of times those people take the easy way out and step out of the relationship sometimes because, like, that's the only way they feel like they can get out, you know, or they just, like, they, they would rather do that than have a tough conversation with their partner. Or maybe they try to have a tough conversation. And I don't know why that, you know, like, we, we, you know, who knows why? Some, you know, we all stay. Have stayed in relationships longer than we, we should have. But I think you're saying yes to what I feel like are meaningful things when it comes to the, for the people who, who choose to stay in, in these types of relationships. And shockingly, they're. The stats, if that matters to you, are a lot more positive than you would realize in terms of the couples who choose to work through infidelity. It's, it's. There's like a TED talk about infidelity. She's like a leading relationship expert. She's. She does a lot of good stuff. Esther Perel. You should look that up.

[Taylor]

Okay.

[Nick]

And watch it. She just talks about how infidelity. You would be surprised how many people work through it. What causes a root why. And then she kind of explains the psychology around why in a lot of cases people are able to work through it. And I think that will help you answer some of your questions about how you can trust him in the future and what that looks like. I understand this is like a big deal, obviously, and it's a thing that you can't believe he did. It's probably not the first time you guys have lied to each Other if we're just in a weird way, again, not justifying it, but it's just like if we're talking about lying. Lying is lying.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Right. Yeah. It's more than just trust, I guess. And I do think what causes it is more than valid. I do think his. His abuse that he suffered is like, plays. It plays. Is a. Is. It plays a significant role in this. And I do have a ton of empathy for anyone as a victim, especially as a child of. And I do think that plays a huge role, you know, for you. It's just the pain and like, I can't believe this happened. And the. What almost feels like a monstrous act on his part. And I think that understanding his. Where, you know, his history goes a long way to avoiding you ruminating over that.

[Alyssa]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

No, that makes sense. Yeah.

[Nick]

And I. In a. Yeah. And the trust stuff, I think a lot will come into. Can you trust B version of him?

[Taylor]

Sure.

[Nick]

Now that he is equipped with the awareness and he can admit it, and he certainly has the tools and maybe he might have to, you know, but he has to stay committed to this and. And you guys being very mindful. And I think it's being very mindful of how you guys are feeling connected because you even said, like, oh, he was a little off, he was being a little weird, you know, short tempered. I think now more than anything, you will have the right to just be like, hey, you know, like, just in the past, just want to make sure we're good because he's gonna obviously be triggered about things.

[Taylor]

Right.

[Nick]

You know, in the past, you wouldn't have thought to ask. Now you might, you know, just like, I want to make sure we're, you know, just checking in, just making sure we're cool.

[Taylor]

Yeah, that makes sense. Can I ask you a quick question?

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

Would the piece of information of why did he do it then matter in the long term? Or is. Is that not even important? Like, why did he do it when. Because he started looking up for escorts when we found out we were pregnant with our third kid. You know, does that matter? Is that just. Am I chasing a dead horse here?

[Nick]

I think this is probably a better question for your therapist.

[Taylor]

Okay.

[Nick]

But since you're asking.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

My gut tells me I think it's a fair question for you to ask in therapy.

[Taylor]

Okay.

[Nick]

And I think you should ask it, and you should ask it in individual therapy and you should ask it in couples therapy so that, you know, you guys can be in the room together. Because I think it's a fair question. Yeah, I think the reality is it probably doesn't matter as much. And I think the answer probably is rooted right in his history because it probably is connected. But like, to answer and why I think it's helpful for you to answer is because obviously you're probably thinking it is a specific response to you being pregnant again, you know, and it's a specific response to his feelings towards you or maybe growing the family. And my guess is is that while I don't doubt it's connected, it. It probably, almost certainly isn't connected with how he feels about you or how he feels about his child.

[Taylor]

Okay, valid. That's very valid.

[Nick]

It is probably. Yeah, it is probably very much. He was my guess. He was. Again, just from the things I've learned over the years through talking in this space and work, you know, he probably was triggered by this somehow some way, and that made him resort back into this child who doesn't know how to deal with these triggers. And the only way he's figured out how to deal with it is this kind of very. Just unhealthy relationship with sex.

[Taylor]

Sure. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Nick]

But you should ask your therapist, okay, because it's definitely a valid question. And I'm sure that's something you will ruminate on over and over again. I do know that people who are victims of these monstrous acts know how to compartmentalize. It's a survival mechanism. And so I would willing to guess your therapist would suggest some kind of ability that he's trying. Not even fully aware that when he is doing this. And it sounds almost surreal. How could he not consider me? How could he not consider his family? How could he not consider his kids? But he is probably not doing that. But, you know, does that make sense? And I think that car parametalization is a survival mechanism for people who are, you know, that's how, you know, you. How do you deal with something so. So tragic that you can't process it? Well, you don't deal with it.

[Taylor]

You just kind of push it away.

[Nick]

Push it away.

[Taylor]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Nick]

All right. I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I mean.

[Taylor]

Thanks.

[Nick]

Whatever you can do to not ruminate. And it sounds crazy, but. Yeah, try not to just listen. You're here. You know that you woke up today, your child is healthy, you're growing, you know, like you're. In a crazy way. It sounds like you still feel very safe around your husband.

[Taylor]

I do, yeah.

[Nick]

And I think that's a very important thing for you to feel. And I think that's okay that you feel that way. And I don't think you need to doubt that or question that again. Trust your body, trust your instincts. And if your instincts tell you that this is, you know, it, you know, it all makes sense to you to the explanation.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And I'm sure that the world probably is just like this, that, that, you know, like the, like the zero tolerance policy. But like, that's not how the world works and it's how relationships work. And sadly, you know, there are evil people in this world, you know.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Or, or victims who don't deal, you know, who victimize. You know, it's just like this kind of ongoing cycle.

[Taylor]

Right.

[Nick]

So that all being said, I don't, you know, you are not his hero. You're not a savior. You were not put on this earth to put up with his or forgive his mistakes. I think he has this one shot to really make things right where you can wrap your brain around why he did what he did in a way that's forgivable. But now that he knows it, it's harder for it to be an excuse going forward.

[Taylor]

Yeah, absolutely. I would agree with that.

[Nick]

So. All right, well, take care of that baby. Congratulations on the baby. I'm sorry you're going through this and. Yeah, I. Listen, I think you can get through it if, if, you know, if you both put in the work. But I, I don't think what you're dealing with right now is insurmountable. And I think there's a path forward. Check out that Esther Perel video. I think it'll make you feel better.

[Taylor]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate your help.

[Nick]

All right, take care.

[Taylor]

Thanks.

[Nick]

All right, bye. Bye.

[Taylor]

All right, bye.

[Nick]

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[Alyssa]

It's good. How's it going?

[Nick]

I'm good. What's your name?

[Alyssa]

My Name's Alyssa. I'm 35 and my husband had an emotional affair.

[Nick]

Okay, well, it's a topic of the day. Last caller. Her husband had sex with an escort while she was pregnant. So.

[Alyssa]

Okay. I couldn't imagine.

[Nick]

I don't know if that helps put things into perspective for you, but. Yeah, no, I. Listen, I don't, like, that's not, that's not necessarily fair to you. So like every situation is different and let's just dive into yours. But just give me a little backstory, like how long you guys been married? How this come. How did you find out? Like, we're kind of where you're now and I guess like, what can I help? Like, what are you trying to figure out on this call? And then let's go from there.

[Alyssa]

So I'm trying to figure out, like, what if I should still hold on to hope with our marriage. Sorry, it's emotional. We've been together since we're 19 and we're 35. So we, we were married when we were 26. 25. And then we had our first child at 26 and we had our second at 27. And now they're 8 and 9. And a couple years ago, like we were in the thick of things and he was just unhappy and I guess I didn't really hear him when he said he was unhappy. And I was just more focused on taking care of the kids. I'm a stay at home mom who works part time and he works away for two weeks at a time. And one day he was just like, I'm done, I want to get a divorce. And so we were dealing with that for about eight months. He wanted to leave and I kept fighting for us and fighting for us. And then I find out that he's been talking to another woman who is 10 years younger than both of us because he's 35 as well. And he ended up ending it with her because one of the guys at work was like, the grass isn't always greener. Like, this is just like a fluff relationship you're having. Like it might not be real. And yeah, so we ended up ending it. So we tried to work things out for the last year.

[Kayla]

Ish.

[Alyssa]

And then just recently he found a rental on his own and didn't inform me that he put a deposit on it and he moved out the last time he was home.

[Kayla]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I'm sorry.

[Alyssa]

Thanks.

[Nick]

So as far as you know, that emotional affair was a one off and then so what in from your point of view, what do you think prompted him to make this choice to get his own place?

[Alyssa]

He's definitely an avoidant. We are going to be counseling and he's definitely avoidant. So he definitely is at his cup. He's at his full cup. So he's at a capacity where he can't handle me and my emotions. So he feels like getting his own place will help him get peace and calmness and perspective on everything.

[Nick]

What do your therapists think about that?

[Alyssa]

Our couples counselor therapist thinks it's unfair because we're supposed to be working on things and she doesn't get, like, why we didn't just try to sell the house and find something different that could be suitable for him and have more space. Because our house we live in is very. You're on top of each other. Like, you don't really have space to get away. And then his counselor, he gets away.

[Nick]

He gets away half the month every month.

[Alyssa]

Yeah, yeah. He's away for about 16 days and then he's home for 11.

[Nick]

And this, this, this has always been the case with you guys?

[Alyssa]

Okay, so, yeah, my daughter was two and our stuff. Well, our daughter was two and our son was one when he started working away. So he's been working away for at least seven years.

[Nick]

Is there a specific why? I mean, like, is. Is. Does he have to do this or.

[Alyssa]

Is it like, it comes down to money, finances? Like, it's.

[Nick]

Why not move?

[Alyssa]

So expensive?

[Nick]

Why not move?

[Alyssa]

Because I don't like change. So that was another thing that he's upset with. Like, he's always wanted to move somewhere else that would benefit us financially. But I, I'm just scared of moving away from my family, my support system, because he's away most of the time.

[Nick]

And why couldn't she move to a place where he wouldn't have to be away.

[Alyssa]

We could have, but I would be. I would have been isolated with no friends and family, not even his family. It would have been a place where it would have. I would have had to start over, making friends and all that.

[Nick]

Why? Why do you want to save this marriage?

[Alyssa]

Because I know how good of a guy he is, and he is a good dad. Like, I've heard you talk to other people, and, like, I hear you as a father, and I've, like, got him to listen to you sometimes. I'm like, this is what Nick says. And Natalie's, like, great, too. Like, listen how she, like, talks to him and they pants her and. And they're in a healthy relationship. And. Yeah. So I just know he's a good guy and I know he can be a good dad. But, like, right now, he's basically on an airplane and he's putting his own mask on, and he's letting me and the kids have to save ourselves in his head.

[Nick]

I mean, as far as your. Like, you said something interesting where you made him listen to our podcast, and you're like, see Nick and Nally banter. What are his frustrations with you?

[Alyssa]

Oh, gosh, that I didn't move when he wanted to. Okay.

[Nick]

It's like a one off a little bit.

[Alyssa]

I mean, I can be. I'm gonna. I'm in a. I'm an anxious attachment.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Alyssa]

So, like, even after this emotional affair has happened, like, I feel like I'm even more anxious with our relationship. That bothers him because he doesn't want to have to deal with my emotions.

[Nick]

I mean, I guess. But, like, I am curious after this emotional affair ended, you're. The way you describe him. And maybe this is, you know, because I'm not talking to him. He. It sounds like he's very good at centering himself as the victim.

[Alyssa]

He wouldn't say he was the victim, but he's definitely good at controlling the environments that he puts himself in, I guess.

[Nick]

You know, you said, oh, I was more anxious after the emotional family. That makes a lot of sense. But I think a lot would come down to. I mean, like, it'd make sense regardless, but it would make more sense if you still have to wonder about his feelings towards you. For example, not to get into too much detail, the last caller, but I asked her a question, and that question was like, despite this crazy situation that you're working through, do you still feel your partner's love, your husband's love? Do you feel like he's still like, do you think he's disgusted with his actions. And her answer was like, yeah, you know, like, she knew what I was asking. And it was like, a really positive answer in the sense that, like, you know, listen, shit happens. There's, you know, a million different reasons why people do destructive things in their own lives, in their relationships. But in some cases of infidelity, people are acting out in ways that maybe they're not even fully understanding why they act out. And sometimes something happens that they're like, you know, I mean, there are people who do cheat who, like, would have, you know, 10 years ago, like, I'll never do that. You know, and then they do it. And then there are situations where people are very much like, I'm not getting what I want and need, and I am unhappy and I deserve to be happy. And I guess I needed to go find it somewhere else, even though I'm in this relationship, or I need to at least explore or window shop to see what else is out there, because I've only been with the same person since I was 19, but I know I'm not happy. And then he found out the grass was maybe not, you know, got some advice from a friend and ended that, you know, situation reluctantly, maybe unreluctantly. But he still communicates to you that he's still like, well, I don't really know. Like, yeah, I ended that, but I'm still not, you know, like, for example, like, the story I told you about the last caller, like, hey, this happened, is Sounds far more extreme than what's happened to you. But that being said, your situation, in a way, could be more challenging than hers, because it doesn't sound like your husband's, like, working with you in a way, as opposed to, like, do you feel like he's sorry? Do you feel his love?

[Alyssa]

Yes and no.

[Nick]

How no?

[Alyssa]

Because he's so unattached at the moment. So, like, I don't. I feel that he cares, but I don't know.

[Nick]

How does he care?

[Alyssa]

Because he still, like, makes the effort to talk to me and ask me about my day and when. Before, when we were, like. When he was having the emotional affair, he was able to, like, just talk to the kids, and he hung up. He didn't care about what my day was like. He didn't, like, want to ask about it. So I can see that he cares. We were joined also on our finances together for, like, our whole time being together. And then when he wanted to divorce two years ago, he took everything away from me. So I was financially, like, taken off of everything.

[Nick]

Did you have a say in that matter?

[Alyssa]

No, he just did it. He took his paycheck, he opened up a separate account and he took it all away. Which was. Yeah, yeah. But he recently just put his paycheck back into our joint account. So now I'm on the finances. Like I said, be it happening. And he really likes his autonomy with his own account and he wishes he always had his own soul account from the beginning. He wishes we were never joined and then. But we both agreed on me being a stay at home mom and taking care of the kids and whatever. So. Yeah, so I see he cares because if he didn't care, he wouldn't have put his paycheck back in the account. He wouldn't have, he wouldn't be calling and asking about my day and he wouldn't be doing therapy because he's going to therapy. He's doing it on his own. And we're doing our couples counseling as well.

[Nick]

What makes you most afraid that this won't work out?

[Alyssa]

Not having the family unit that I thought we would have.

[Nick]

But like in this moment, what makes you doubt you guys ability to work this out?

[Alyssa]

That he will just be stuck in his head and his dark thoughts and thinking that I will always be like the old me.

[Nick]

What is the old you? Yeah, I mean that's kind of like.

[Alyssa]

What sold me was very. It was my way. We did what I wanted to do. If he wanted to go out with friends, like I would guilt him. I wouldn't do it like maliciously, but I would do it because that's just how I was raised. I was guilt like my whole life growing up. So that's like what I know. And then we had kids and then that really like I think were wrenching things. And we, we parent. We are 100, parenting the way we want to parent. But our kids are high functioning adhd. Our daughter's on the spectrum. So they have a lot of extra needs. And he doesn't, he doesn't see it. He feels like I coddle them. But I've worked on myself a lot. Like I've been going to therapy for the last two and a half years and I've realized that guilty and that anxious side of me, like I've been working on really hard because not even for our marriage, for like friendships and for my kids because I don't want my kids to be grown and be like, oh my God, Mom's calling me again. Like I'm gonna put her on the ignore. So I just, I'm Trying to do better.

[Nick]

Do you feel like he recognizes your improvements?

[Alyssa]

He says he does, but he still is deep in his thoughts, and he still doesn't believe that, like, I'm willing to keep evolving.

[Nick]

Why not?

[Alyssa]

I don't know. And he. He would say, I don't know either.

[Nick]

Like, do you think he, like, I mean, I don't. Like, what's. Do you think he wants to get. Make this work?

[Alyssa]

Yes, you do.

[Nick]

Why do you move out?

[Alyssa]

Because when he was trying to leave me that last time, I did not respect his boundaries. When he came home because he wanted to sleep. He wanted to sleep in the basement, and I would stay upstairs with the kids where, like, our bedrooms were. And I didn't respect his boundaries. Like, I would text him. I'm like, can you please just come, like, sleep in our bed? Like, can we play games? Can we do this? That, like, act like a couple? And so he didn't feel like I respected his boundaries. So that's why he feels like he had to get a rental to be, like, fully out.

[Nick]

I mean, to be honest, none of that really makes sense.

[Alyssa]

Our therapist said the same thing.

[Nick]

Well, because, like, okay, fine. Like, there was a time frame in which he wanted a divorce. Okay, fine. He wanted out respecting his boundaries, that you wanted to connect with your still husband and make things work. I mean, I don't know. That's like, a cold way to describe. Yeah. I mean, as far as all the people who don't respect their own boundaries and other people's boundaries, a wife wanting to play games with her husband and family and sleep in the same bed is hardly a cardinal sin. More importantly, what does that have to do with now where he's not necessarily asking for divorce? He is strangely doing things like you said, the whole, like, going back, backtracking on, separating the finances, in a way, making you feel like he is checking in on you and considering your feelings from time to time. Like, what does that have to do with. Like, he's only with you for half the month, not even, like, it's too much to have his family in the same. Under the same roof for the other half? I mean, that. That's the part that, like, really floors me. And I guess, like, I mean, I don't know. I will say this, and I know maybe if this doesn't work out the way you want it to, you've had a lot of practice being a single mom.

[Alyssa]

Our therapist says that. Me, she is like, you've done it for how long?

[Nick]

The sense I'm getting from what you're sharing with me is this, like, I don't doubt your husband has some valid frustrations with you. You've acknowledged some of them. We could probably get deeper into the weeds of some of those. But, yeah, listen, you're not perfect, and you haven't been a perfect wife, and no one's a perfect partner. You got some bugaboos from. From childhood, like, we all do. That causes you to be off putting to people. Like, it literally. You know, you've literally described everyone, but you are, like, working on them, and, like, that's meaningful in a way that, quite honestly, a lot of people don't, never do. And the way you just talk about your husband, it just sounds like he is very prickly. And really, you know, it's ironic that you say, like, you is, like, your way or the highway. And I don't doubt, like, again, you didn't want to move. And I'm sure he feels a certain way about that. And I'm sure at times you've been maybe not the supportive wife you needed to be. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know what you did wrong. But he. He's. I mean, talk about boundaries. This is like. He's like, all right, well, I'm gonna, like, spend half. More than half the month just away from my family. God only knows what he's doing. Not trying to put thoughts in your head, but, like, he has already done some shit. So, like. And then when he's here, it's like he's not. You know, like, no one likes to be in long distance, but the. Like, the. In a. In a good situation. Long distance makes you miss people. You know, being away from those you love really makes you appreciate the time you have from them. He sounds like a guy who's, like. Wants to spend, like, one day a month with his family, like, and has all these, like, I can't do this. And, you know, it's just like, I don't know. I don't care. I don't care what his attachment style is. I. I think attachment style is a very valid. And I've said this before, I think it's a very interesting thing about how we connect and disconnect and how we handle ourselves in relationship. I think it's often just kind of an excuse for people to understand themselves better, but not necessarily change. I appreciate your willingness to change in a way that most people don't. But, like, how much do you feel like your husband's changed over the past couple years for all the work that you feel like you're doing. Do you feel like your husband has. Has shared in that personal development?

[Alyssa]

No, I think that matters, and I can strongly say that. But the. But the problem is, is because he never wanted to do therapy, like, separate. And then our couple's counselor was like, I think this counselor that I know would be, like, really beneficial for you.

[Nick]

To like to your husband.

[Alyssa]

He said this separate. And she, like, was like this. She will do great. She can talk about your childhood trauma. Because I feel like that's been coming back up because he's been. He's been bringing that up too, like, how his trauma was in childhood. And yeah, he's just, like, really in a dark place. So he is doing therapy. Like, he. He's only gone once, but he goes again on Wednesday, and he has another one booked in January. But of course, this is going to be such a slow process because he works the way.

[Nick]

Well, he can do therapy remotely.

[Alyssa]

Well, yeah, he's doing it remotely tomorrow. So I was like, do you think you could do a phone call with her? Like, I don't think it's a good idea to go a month without talking to her if you want to, like, really dive in and get to the deep of it. And he agreed. He was like, no, you're absolutely right. I'm gonna book a phone call. And he even sent me, like, his, like, confirmation to show that he is doing it. So. Yeah, because he knows my trust is kind of, like, far.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, listen, at the end of the day right now, it seems like you're a lot on the defense and you're playing catch up, so to speak. And it really seems like in terms of power dynamic, he's holding all the cards. He's the one who's, you know, unhappy, and it's his boundaries who are not being respected or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're always thinking about how he questioning and how he's feeling about you. I feel like you need to try to. For you to, like, make a clear decision for yourself. I think you need to try to find way. Find a way to get to a place and maybe you can work on this in your own individual therapy and maybe discuss it in couples therapy with him. I think there's a difference between, I really want to make this work. I love this person. We have, our family more than anything. I want to make this work and being afraid of it ending to the point where you don't know how you'll move on if it doesn't work. And I Think it's totally valid and great that you want to save your family and fight for your family. I don't want you to be afraid of it not working out. And I don't want him to feel like he is holding all the cards and that his wife won't be okay. I don't want him staying with you because he doesn't know if his wife will be okay without him. You will be. I mean, again, you spent half a month without him. And I want you to find that balance of, you know, encouraging him, doing what he can, but also, like, what are your boundaries? What are boundaries that he needs to respect? And at some point there needs to be like, do you know? Are you really in this? Are you really committed to making this work? Because I been living in emotional purgatory for I don't know how long now, and it's exhausting and it's defeating, and it's just I'm constantly sad and I want nothing more to make this work with you. But I. I don't want to live in, like, this purgatory forever of constant, like, fear. Because, like, if you have to move on, let's just get it over with and get it done, you know, so to speak. You know, let's just figure it the fuck out. Right now you're just in this constant state of, like, will I be okay if my family breaks up? And it's. It's never not going to be scary to fear that.

[Alyssa]

We did put a timeline on, like, he did. We did. I don't know, six months. Because of course, like, his rental, like, he told them when he rented it, supposedly this is all hearsay, but he said, like, if I got back with my wife or whatever, like, could I get out of the lease? Because he signed a year lease for this rental. And so then when we finally discussed it, he said he would give us six months to, like, work on us. Him work on himself, me keep working on myself. And then we go from there. And so we have made a boundary. Like, really, I feel like my only boundary is we're not seeing other people. Like, we're not talking. We're not seeing anybody. We're not doing anything.

[Nick]

Yeah, I think you need more boundaries. I mean, honestly, like, again, I'm not an expert, and it does you. Like you said it doesn't make sense to your own therapist, but him moving out is not a step in the right direction. And I think that's okay for you to point out and, like, you don't know what he's Doing and nothing about him moving out feels like he's really trying to make this work. It honestly feels like he's setting himself up for letting you know that he wants a divorce in six months and he needs to at least acknowledge that you'd be an idiot not to, like, consider that. So if you are going to agree to, like, not trust your gut and instincts when it comes to him moving out, you need to be. I want you to feel comfortable speaking up what doesn't feel right. Because, like, again, him making this move is such, like a power move. And you're gonna feel like he's already got one foot out the door. And, boy, I don't wanna piss him off now. He's not. He's already, like, half left me. He's like, he's got a place. It's like, I want you to find that balance between all the work you've done on yourself. I want you to hold that. And I want you, when it comes to how you treat your husband in ways that you've. You've learned about how you communicate and interact with people, how you project things or whatever, how people receive, say or don't say things, whatever, Like, I want you to always, obviously work on that in a ways that you can. That doesn't mean being a pushover. That doesn't mean turning into a people pleaser. That doesn't mean, like, not enforcing your boundaries. So, like, I think it's really important while you work on yourself to still know what is a fair and reasonable boundary. I think that's also something you can always get a lot of guidance from your therapist from where it's just like, this doesn't feel like I should be okay with accepting this, you know, and that doesn't mean you're being difficult or you're back to your old ways, or you're being uncompromising again. Like, if you don't want to be in this relationship, don't be in this relationship. And if you.

[Alyssa]

I have said that. And he's like, if that was the case, I would have been. I would be done. So he.

[Nick]

But he needs to show you. In addition, he can't. Like, showing you that is not just not asking for the divorce and being done. Because so many of his actions suggest that he is shopping around or testing out the waters of a new life and giving you every reason to feel very angry, anxious about where you stand and what your future looks like. And he's holding all the cards. You've made it very clear that you want to work this out, despite all the things he's done. You're just like, I want to figure out how to work this out. And he's constantly like, well, I don't. I need to work on myself. I need to do this. I am not sure. I mean, I want to, but. I mean, if I didn't want to at all, I would have left. But I was also. I'm not sure if I'm here to stay. Like, what the fuck is that? Like, how do you know that's not fair to you?

[Alyssa]

No, sorry. Yeah, I was just definitely, like, Jesse and Jordan, like, when they were on your podcast. Like, I feel like, in a sense, like, he's Jesse and I'm Jordan.

[Nick]

Interesting. Like, how are. How are you Jordan?

[Alyssa]

I'm Jordan in a way that, like, I felt like I was the controlling one. I didn't be rage or, like, call names or, like, use our kids as pawns. Like, I never did, like, what Jordan did. But, like. And then the other thing is, like, I've taken full accountability on the things that I have done, and I don't want to do that. Like, and I heard you on the podcast be like, I don't really think Jordan knows what he needs to do. And I agree. I don't think he did take ownership, and I think he's just excuses and he's not taking accountability. But I definitely can see myself in Jordan's position, if that makes sense.

[Nick]

Sure. Do you feel like there's a part of your husband that's just kind of done whatever you did to him or however you made your husband feel? Do you feel like he, like. I don't know, like, the part you. The part of you that's comparing yourself to Jordan, and I guess I can only, like, again, you. Okay, fine. You didn't emotionally berate your partner. The big takeaway from the Jordan episode for me, and I think for most of the audience, is that he justified his insecurities about himself and his value and took it out on his wife. And I guess. What part of that do you relate to? How did you take it out?

[Alyssa]

See, that's the thing I don't relate to. Yeah, I don't relate to that, but I just. I relate into, like, I feel like Jordan was just controlling, and he didn't feel like he was a priority to Jesse. And Jesse was, like, the boss bitch that she is, and she was the one who, like, took care of the family and made the money, and he. And then he just felt emasculated, so. Or emasculated and so that's where maybe I don't see it in that. So, like, I.

[Nick]

But how do you.

[Alyssa]

I don't know how. I just. I just. When I heard it, I just heard my husband and Jesse. Like, I was like, oh, my God, Jesse reminds me of my husband so much. But then when I heard Jordan talking, I'm like, okay, maybe I'm not like Jordan, but, like, I can understand. But then when he was like, oh, well, my family and I, we always talked mean to each other.

[Nick]

It's interesting that you. It's interesting that you say that, because my just. My read on Jesse is that she's checked out is that she's fallen out of love.

[Alyssa]

Okay, so that would be like, that.

[Nick]

She'S fallen out of love with Jordan. But there's other things to consider, like, her family and maybe just like, hey, listen, like, I don't know, you know Jesse, like, she's already been married once. This is her second marriage. No one wants to, like, get divorced twice. That's. That's just a lot for anyone to deal with. And I feel like a lot of those variables are stopping Jesse from, like, moving on in a relationship that, like, she knows isn't right for her. And she's just kind of checked out, and, like, the more success she's has as this individual and the star of this very hit reality TV show, she doesn't feel like she has a partner. So do you feel like your husband's kind of checked out on you? I mean, if that's the part you're relating to, yeah.

[Alyssa]

Yeah. But then him going to therapy and wanting to try to work on it is like, okay, well, maybe there's, like, a glimmer of hope. But I've also heard you be like, there should be hope in relationships and, like, podcasts.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah. Hope is a very dangerous game in relationships. It's hard to survive off of hope in relationships when what you really need is security and love and comfort and things like that. So, anyway, I think that's interesting that you say that you related to Jesse. And again, I think it's great that he's going to therapy, and it's great. I'm glad the whole, like, financial aspect, like, went back in that direction because the other one seemed kind of cruel on his part. And, you know, yeah, he is in therapy. That is a step in the right direction. And him being, you know, beginning his individual therapy journey is also a step in the right direction. And maybe this is the beginning of something new. But again, I really think it's important that you don't lose your power and don't. And are not just sitting around and waiting for your husband to decide your future. And I think you have the right to have your boundaries, and you have the right to, like, hold him accountable for making meaningful changes in his life because you're. You've held yourself accountable. And, yeah, listen, you're not perfect. I'm sure you've made your mistakes. You guys been dating since you were 19. It's hard to grow as individuals and as a couple together. Not easy to do. And you guys had to try to do that all while having kids. You. You have the right to have a voice in this relationship. My last caller. That was a terrible situation that she's in. I'm just gonna say something very direct and very. This won't probably feel good, but I just want to be honest with you. In this moment, I have more hope for that relationship than I have for yours.

[Alyssa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And that's only because, again, like, infidelity is a terrible thing, and it sucks. And I'm sorry you had to deal with that, but, like, you guys, in a way, have dealt with it. She is dealing with it, but, like, there are things that can explain it. Not to, like, make it better or okay, but, like, she doesn't doubt how her husband feels about her. She is understanding things that played a role in this that doesn't, again, make her forgive him, but she doesn't see him as a monster because of this thing he did. And she's not constantly wondering. She does feel supported. He is there. He is present. He. You know, she feels his regret. She feels his love. Is this something they're working through? Will they get through it? I don't know. You're playing, like, mental gymnastics, and, you know, this chess, trying, like. Well, it's like, this is a good sign, and this is a bad sign. And I, you know, my therapist, you know, it's just like. I don't know, Like, I mean, you know what I'm saying? Like, if. If you had to, like, bet on the future of your relationship, I don't know what you would bet. Yeah, she our last caller, in a weird way, still kind of. She feels in control. She does feel like it's her choice. She feels like she has very much a say. And whether this relationship stays together or not or works out, who knows what's going to happen and things could change. But he. I just. I just feel like your husband's way too much in control of the situation. It's Not a thing that you guys are working through together and you are responding to his choices more than this is something you guys are working through together. And I feel like that needs to change, you know?

[Alyssa]

Yeah, no, you're right. And I agree, like, that relationship sounds like they have a lot. There's more work that they're putting in and he's putting in and then. Yeah, my husband is, he's just more like, I can't take care of you or the kids if my emotional well being isn't taken care of right now. So he's putting all of the back burner.

[Nick]

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's, there's, there's, there's, I guess some truth to that. But like, I would say man the fuck up and take care of your people and take care of your family and. Yeah, listen, like, life is hard and, and yes. But to say that you can't do it and that. And to justify checking out and being basically not there. The only silver lining here is that you, you. I don't think this will be as much of a shock to you as it probably feels like if it doesn't go the direction you want.

[Alyssa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

In terms of like, what your life looks like going forward, you are living the life of a single mom. You are doing all the parenting by yourself. You don't have.

[Alyssa]

Right.

[Nick]

A partner in, in the ways that some other people have a partner. And that's emotional security that, you know, you are very much in this by yourself right now. And I'm not saying I, I want, I'm saying that to hopefully make you feel good. I want you to, you need, you deserve some credit.

[Alyssa]

Yeah. Like, our. My therapist says that to me all the time. She's like, you've done so much and you're so loyal and you're so loving and, and you've come a long way from like when I first met you and you put in the work and you just hope that he's doing the same thing.

[Nick]

You are far more emotionally resilient than your husband.

[Alyssa]

Oh, yeah, I can see that. Yeah.

[Nick]

Listen, I just want you to be okay with, with saying out loud, even to him. You may have to work on yourself. That is an ongoing life journey, but between now and like six months. Sure. But like, I need a husband if, if I'm going to be married and your kids need a more present father. And I don't know how you figure that out, but, like, I need you to make that work. And if you can't do that, then what are we talking about here?

[Alyssa]

So as, like, friend advice, would you say to keep holding on to hope or would you just listen?

[Nick]

He started individual therapy. It just started. You know, there's some green flags there. If I were you, I would want. I would want some meaningful progress. It's certainly in, like, I mean, if he doesn't realize fairly early in therapy that his, his choices of getting his own place and being so afraid away from his family for so often is, is, is. Is not matching what he says he's trying to work on. You know, like his actions are not matching what he's saying to you in term, and it is not matching the hope he's trying.

[Alyssa]

Well, he would rather be a better dad than be a better husband.

[Nick]

I think anyone would, you know, if, if forced to make that decision. I'd say that about me and Natalie. I mean, if we had to make that call. Most people don't have to. You know, you can, you can be both. But sure, yeah, it's kind of weird. Like, I'm a great. I'm a great husband, but a shitty father. Like, okay, I guess. Congratulations. What causes you to do that or have to do that?

[Alyssa]

Well, that's where his trauma comes from, is because his dad chose his stepmom over being a good dad.

[Nick]

Okay, well, interesting, you know, certainly helps explain things, but like, again, like, an explanation isn't an excuse and it's not a justification. And I'm glad he can maybe better understand why he feels the way he does and why he makes some of the choices, but it shouldn't be some, like, forever pro. It's not, it's not an excuse. It's just not an excuse. You know, it should be a wake up call, you know, oh, my God, am I doing that? Am I. You know, but like, you can still be fine be it. You can still be a good partner. It's called balance. And again, he might have to learn the tools to do that.

[Alyssa]

I don't think he knows how to do that. I think him working away, like, causes him to. And, And I know our therapist was like, is there any way you could take a leave or whatever so you can be home. Home and work on this and see and just financially, like, we can't. We're not there. Like, I can't make the money he makes. He makes so much money. So this is just a slow process. But for sure, like, at six months, he needs to shit or get off the pot. Like, he needs to figure it out.

[Nick]

I don't think you should wait six months. For him to shit and get off the pot. And that's.

[Alyssa]

So you think the six months might just be.

[Nick]

I mean, I, I am not an I, I, I think made up deadlines and timelines are bullshit in almost every situation. Yeah, he just picked a number. It's a good round number. Six months. I don't know. He has no idea how he's gonna feel then, you know, so it's like, it's stupid. It's a stupid number.

[Alyssa]

And I know I've heard you say that on like a call. She gave like three years to like her boyfriend or something, like to be engaged. And you were like, three years is way too long because now he's gonna play the long game and he's gonna enjoy that. Three years. And so you told her, like, you need to take that down to like a year. And then he knows that you're being serious. And so I'm like, well, maybe six months.

[Nick]

I just think in general, these dates are artificial and made up and can.

[Alyssa]

Be moved, waiting for it to explode.

[Nick]

I think what matters on a day to day basis and his actions. Is he moving in the right direction? Are you moving closer together? Are you moving further apart? Do you feel more connected or less connected? And you have the right to ask yourself those questions in between now and six months. Like, what you shouldn't do is just be like, all right, well, I guess I'll just let you call the shots. And then at six months, you're acting like it's like there's going to be like some big D day announcement and it's going to be like, you know, like national signing day with high school picking a college. Like, all right, stay with me. Are you going to move out? And he's like, all right, you know, anywhere, you know, I'm going to pick the single life. You know, it's like, that's not how it should be.

[Alyssa]

I talked to my therapist yesterday about it and I was like, she thinks six months is too long. She thinks he should know where he's at or I should know what I want to do less than that. So she was like, maybe in January when we have our meeting, like we figure out like where he's at, because if he's still at, I don't know, then we just need to call it.

[Nick]

Yeah, I think there's some truth to that. I, I don't understand why he needs his own apartment and what has anything to do with him working on himself.

[Alyssa]

Well, he feels like when I'm there with the kids that like I don't let him parent or whatever.

[Nick]

Do you think there's truth to that? What is that, 100? Is it like your. Your kids go to his house or something and then he can be a parent?

[Alyssa]

They haven't done that yet. They haven't had that yet because it was just so recent. Yeah, but.

[Nick]

But that's his thought process.

[Alyssa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

That he. The kids will go there, and then he can be dad to his kids without the interruption of mom.

[Alyssa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And you said you agree with that. What? But why. Why do you. Why do you agree with that? And why do you think his feelings are valid? Or you agree with it, but, like, there's a caveat.

[Alyssa]

No, I think it's fucking stupid. I think he's just using his, like, issues to, like, cloud his judgment. When I have been working on myself and I've been so good at, like, not being like that and not trying to, like, tell him how to parent or be.

[Nick]

You're also, like, just, like, there all the time. I mean, listen, I am.

[Alyssa]

Well, I'm the mom 24 7, and.

[Nick]

I'm a pretty present, active father. I'm. I'm give myself a lot of props.

[Alyssa]

I know. I've showed him pictures of you with your daughter.

[Nick]

That being said, like, you know, like, Natalie is Natalie as River's mom when it comes to, like, I don't know, just, like, little. There's just a lot of things that now he's like, say this, do this, don't do this, don't do that. And my initial reaction sometimes is like, well, I don't. My boss. You don't get to tell me what to do. But she, like, I just trust she knows what she's talking about because she is even that more present and more attentive and in the weeds with river than I am, as present and as active as I am as a father. She's in there. She's doing the dirty work, so to speak. She, you know, she's saying this because she's already done it and she knows it works, you know, So I kind of have to get over myself sometimes and just be like, okay, yeah. I mean, like, she deserves the credit.

[Alyssa]

And he thinks I do that to control everything and to control him. He thinks I do that. So I'll do what Natalie does. Like, I'll let him know because I don't want him to have to deal with a massive tantrum or, like, an issue and whatever. So I do it to, like, have.

[Nick]

You ever felt like in the seven years or however long it's been where he's been traveling for work, that in the time that he's left you alone with the kids that he is. Has he acknowledged what that's like for you to be alone and make you. Like, I'm like, just, wow, thank you. Wow. You are taking care of our kids, and I'm sorry for leaving you alone.

[Alyssa]

Yeah, he has. Yeah, he has. He hasn't lately, but he has, because I've gone away, and he's real. He's like, oh, my God. Like, I get why you can't fold the laundry instantly because you're taking care of our kids. Like, I understand now why you can't, like, clean up after supper because the kids want to play a game with you. I'm like, exactly. Like, that's where I'm getting. Like, things don't just happen immediately. Like, I'm one person. I don't have, like, 10 people helping me around the house. So he does. He. He gets it to a point.

[Nick]

He sounds like he gets it to the extent that, like, a brother who's the uncle who's living the civil life is like, you asked him to babysit once, and he's like, hol, that's crazy. I don't know how you fucking do it, but, like, whoa, I never want to do that. You know? Like, that's how he's like, it's not the dad of the kids and the husband to the wife who's doing it. Where it's like, this bothers me. I put you in this position every month.

[Alyssa]

He used to be like that. And then now I think that the last two years has happened. I think he's. He doesn't. So I think it's just. Yeah. And then him getting his own place and him taking the kids. He thinks, oh, well, you get to have a break. And then I'm like, that's not what I want, like, because.

[Nick]

No, but I will say. I will say, I do think in the meantime, I. When he does that, to treat yourself. Go on. If you have friends to go on a vacation with, that go, I would at least pamper yourself. I would not sit around and feel sad, and I would take advantage of that free time. You certainly deserve it. And again, I think we can both agree that he doesn't even realize, since he hasn't done it yet, what he's getting himself into.

[Alyssa]

Very true.

[Nick]

And I think you should really allow him to feel like how you feel constantly. Just a couple days over a weekend. I really want him to see you unafraid. Of the future of being alone and being single. And I want you to really look like you enjoyed that time off and that you weren't sad.

[Alyssa]

Oh, so I shouldn't. I shouldn't be like.

[Nick]

No, listen, guilt has not worked on this man. Yeah, it doesn't.

[Alyssa]

No.

[Nick]

In anything. He probably resents it. Yeah, Yeah, I think. Yeah. Strength. You being fed up and tired and just like. Listen, I know I'm not a perfect wife. I. I've understand it takes two to have the problems that we have. But I am in it and I am fighting and I am doing the work. And honestly, I'm getting a little tired of you not. And I want to be with you and I want this to work out. But if you don't want to choose me and you want to live whatever other life you want, then you should probably get that started sooner than later. Because, honestly, I'm already being a single mom. I also. Just listen, if. You know, your hus. Your husband has already shown proactive signs of screwing you over financially. He has made the choice to move out. I think you should make the choice to at least have a conversation with a lawyer. I think you should understand your rights. I don't think you should be.

[Alyssa]

No, and I have. I've already talked to a lawyer.

[Nick]

Okay. I just don't want you to be, like, left with nothing when the music stops, so to speak. And he's already showing signs of being a little shady when it comes to that stuff. And if he is the breadwinner, you know, like, listen, he should very much be supporting his family and his kids if he want, you know, in a way that you should not be worried about. You guys inside a prenup. Did you?

[Alyssa]

No.

[Nick]

Okay. Well, yeah.

[Alyssa]

No, we went into the marriage with nothing, so.

[Nick]

Yeah, it seems. Sounds like you're entitled to half of that.

[Alyssa]

Yeah, no, and I know I am. I've already talked to a lawyer from, like, before. So, like, I know even if we divorce, like, he'd be paying me alimony, he'd be paying me child support because he's not even there half the time.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Alyssa]

So really, even if he took the kids, he would have them part time, so he would still have to pay, and then I can figure out, like, work from there.

[Nick]

So I think the big takeaway is you need to start demonstrating more strength and confidence yourself. Shame and fear and pity aren't gonna work on him.

[Alyssa]

And that's how I've been feeling. For sure.

[Nick]

I don't want him to think of you as pathetic. You're not. But the more he gets away with and the more he dictates the terms of your relationship, and the more things that he does that don't make sense, that you have to, like, do these mental gymnastics to kind of explain. Explain his logic. I don't think you should do that. And I think if it doesn't make sense, I think you have the right to call it out. And. And you can decide whether you want to stay or go for the time being. You know, for the time being. But, like, knowing what your boundaries are, setting those terms, you can still say, hey, I'm. I'm still here fighting. But, like, I am not. I'm not a fool. I'm not a. You know, and it's kind of like the. Get off the pot. But, yeah, you have the right to say no to him.

[Alyssa]

I just never felt like I did.

[Nick]

I'm sorry you're going through this. This sucks. And.

[Alyssa]

Yeah, thanks.

[Nick]

I'm bothered that it doesn't bother him. I mean, I'd be curious, you know, usually on most of these cases. I'd love to hear his. His version of this story.

[Alyssa]

I know he laughed because he knows I emailed in, and then he laughed. He's like, that would be really cool. And he's like, I would go on there, and then he can hear my side. And then I laughed. I was like, I don't even think I'll get on. And then. And then he laughed it off, too. But he would, like, he would get on for sure.

[Nick]

I mean, I'd be very curious about that. I'm just like, you know, I'm just curious how he explains not being there. Yeah, it's like, you know, as soon. It's like, as soon as you have a kid, it's one thing to be married and have no kids, right? And it's just like, okay, I guess, you know, like, we'll make this. We'll fight for our relationship. We'll prioritize it. But, you know, if. I guess if it doesn't work out, I'll be really sad. And as soon as you have a.

[Alyssa]

Kid, oh, if we didn't have kids, he would be gone. If we didn't have kids, we'd be done.

[Nick]

That's an interesting thing for you to admit, but that. But I guess, you know, it's a. I, you know, I'll be honest. It still doesn't make sense. You know why? Because what I was just about to say, in the sense that, like, once you have a kid, the idea. It's Just like, okay, fine, I guess, like, what if she did break my heart? What if I fell in love with her? What? Whatever. But like, why? For, for all the things that you want to stay together and keep your family together, you're just like, I don't want to have to share my kids. I. I don't. Like, I want kids. I don't want to like, I don't know, it's like, even if it's just like, oh my God, now he's such an. All the parents out there who realize that they're not right for each other but their partner and they this amicably, like, you know, go their separate ways and you're like, you know what? I'm so lucky to have a great co parent. While we may not be right for each other, my kids have a great dad. And, and they, you know, and vice versa, they still have to spend half their time away from their kids. And that for most parents, sucks. And he's just like, he's not around his kids. So like, what part of making this work because you're. I have kids. I don't understand. It's that, that's the part I would be very interested in hearing from him is like, he's not there and it doesn't seem to bother him all that much. And then in the limited time he does get with his kids, he's done. The weird thing about moving out, I understand you're living on top of each other or whatever. I don't, I don't know. But like, isn't 17 days a month enough to be alone?

[Alyssa]

He thinks it's not because he's up at work and then he's dealing with fine. Like he's thinking about finances, he's thinking about work and doing all that stuff and, and then even our counselor looked at him and was like, yeah, but that's a different reality. Like you're not in reality. You don't have to deal with the everyday issues.

[Nick]

Like if I get 15 minutes to listen to a Packer podcast and mentally check out, that's like a win.

[Alyssa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I mean, I have a great life, don't get me wrong. But it starts like around 6 in the morning. I wake up and yeah, I'm on my phone as much as next person, but I'm either taking care of my daughter in the morning and then we wake up and as a family start our day and then I'm off to work. I'm all day, I'm putting out problems when I'm not like recording and Then, you know, I grocery shop, I make dinner. Now he's doing laundry. I. You know, it's like, every day starts at 6 and ends at 10.

[Alyssa]

Yeah. And see, you grocery shop. He hasn't grocery shopped in 15 years.

[Nick]

I haven't done laundry in five. So, you know.

[Alyssa]

Yeah, well, he laughs at that because I brought the laundry thing up. I was like, yeah, Nick is. That's like, something he really likes in the relationship. And so. Yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

But. But the point is, who cares about what, you know, Like, Nellie and I, we've. We have found balance in the things that we like doing and don't like doing. But, like, we're both in it every day. We both feel busy, and we both, like. And, you know, like, obviously there are days where, you know, it's a lot. I mean, could use a break or whatever. But, like, we do enjoy our life and we feel lucky to have it, but it doesn't mean it's not. Not incredibly busy every day. That doesn't include a lot of, like, last night, Natalie joke. She's like, why? You know, I was. She wanted to go lie down. I was kind of early, and I'm like, why don't you just. She was joking. She's like, you should go. Go watch a movie like you're single again. And I was like, sure. She's like, well, don't you, like, didn't you, like, enjoy it? I'm like, I mean, how many days do you have to. How many nights alone where you're just, like, watching Netflix and watching all movies do you have to do before it kind of feels pathetic. Especially like, in your 30s or 40s, you know, it's just like, yeah. I mean, you know, when you're 20s, like, you know, oh, now it's like, yeah, it would be. You know, I watched Collateral on Old movie, and I watched half of it. It was kind of fun, and just, like, put my phone down and watch it. But, like, how many times you need to do that, you know? Again, like, I enjoy my busy life, and when I say it's like, oh, I need 15 minutes to watch a podcast, like, I'm not a victim. Like, I am busy, you know, but that's. That's the life I chose. He's getting away with too much. That's how I feel. I think. I think he needs to make. It needs to make sense to you. And I think there's too many things that don't make sense to you that you are accepting.

[Alyssa]

No, I agree. And I know when he comes home. He just wants everything to be kind of normal because it's Christmas. But then in my head I'm like, who cares if it's Christmas? Like, this is what you wanted. This is how it's supposed to be.

[Nick]

Like, let's see what happens with his therapy. Yeah, once a week makes a lot of sense right now. Nothing's going to change overnight. But if he's not committed to it, if you need to nag him, if you need to remind him, if it's like this constant battle and you know, I hope he really embraces it, especially early on. And again, like, stop ignoring things that don't make sense to you. Okay.

[Alyssa]

Okay.

[Nick]

Keep us posted.

[Alyssa]

Go from there.

[Nick]

All right.

[Alyssa]

Yes, I will. I'll keep you posted.

[Nick]

Take care.

[Alyssa]

Okay, thank you.

[Nick]

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[Kayla]

Hi, I'm Kayla. I'm 34 and my mom keeps talking my dad to me and I can't get her to respect my boundary to stop.

[Nick]

How have you tried to enforce this boundary?

[Kayla]

Social say things. And I tell her that it makes me uncomfortable and she'll say something along the lines of, well, I thought we were friends. I thought I could talk to you about anything. And I say, well, I'll choose another friend for this one because I really don't like it. It makes me uncomfortable. And then she gets mad at me. And then whenever she's mad at me, she won't talk to me for a little bit. And then I'm very close with my mom. We talk multiple times a day, we talk on the phone, we talk about most things. So when she doesn't Talk to me. I get, like, really upset and anxious, and I end up apologizing, and then we move on from there, so.

[Nick]

Gotcha. Are your parents together?

[Kayla]

Yeah, they've been married for 40 years.

[Nick]

Gotcha.

[Kayla]

And sometimes she'll also, like, pick fights in front of me with him, and she'll just, like, talk to him, really mean in front of me. And I'm like, mom, like, can you stop doing that? She's like, well, you always just put your dad on a pedestal. You always take his side and. And then I tell her, like, well, you know, if you did the same thing to you, I would tell him the same thing. But he doesn't do that and just kind of, like, repeats the cycle from there.

[Nick]

Your mom sounds like a bully.

[Kayla]

Yeah, she can be. I mean, you know, I love her.

[Nick]

She's like, yeah, no, I don't doubt it. I'm not saying she's a bad person.

[Kayla]

My best friend, my mom. But. But, yeah, it's.

[Nick]

I'm guessing you probably see a lot of that behavior in how she treats your dad.

[Kayla]

Oh, yeah. She's, like, so mean to him. And I'm like, you know, I've been married for five years. I tell her, I'm like, I can't imagine, like, talking to my husband. How do you talk to my dad? And, you know, growing up, I kind of thought it was normal until I got married. And I'm like, just like, oh, my gosh. I would never, you know.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, so, I mean, I guess, what. What can I help you out with? Because it's not to point out that your mom's wrong and you're right.

[Kayla]

I'm just wondering if you maybe had any creative ideas of things I could say to her to just, like, get her to understand that, you know, she shouldn't do this in front of me or, you know, call me and, like.

[Nick]

Complain about my dad, you know, I don't think I do.

[Alyssa]

Okay.

[Nick]

I don't think this takes creativity.

[Kayla]

Okay.

[Nick]

And I don't doubt you've probably tried a bunch of different ways to get through to your mom.

[Alyssa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Right. I don't think this is something you need to massage or. I don't think the problem is you haven't said it the right way.

[Kayla]

So do I just, like, deal with it?

[Nick]

Yeah. I honestly, you know, I think you have to find the strength not to give in to conceding to a woman who has gotten really good at just kind of bullying people around her and having she. Your mom clearly has the strength to give you the silent treatment or I'm sure your dad. And when your mom is mad, she is good at letting everyone know it. And until she feels that she's gotten. That's acknowledged, she knows how to let people know or make them feel like they're in the wrong. And everyone has. And she's so good at it that everyone, for their own. What they feel like is just. Just keeping the peace or, you know, taking the high road or whatever it is. Your mom always wins.

[Kayla]

Always.

[Nick]

And until that changes, your mom ain't gonna change because she. Your mom's comfortable with discomfort, and your mom's comfortable with confrontation in a way that the people around her aren't.

[Kayla]

Yeah, I. Like, like, one thing that she complains about is, like, sometimes she'll say something to my dad, and he doesn't respond. And I think he just needs a hearing aid, probably, honestly. And. But she gets, like, so mad, and she, like, blows it up into this big thing. Like. And the thing she says is so mean. So then, you know, I have, like, what?

[Alyssa]

Like.

[Nick]

Like what? Give an example.

[Kayla]

Like, she'll be like, oh, my gosh, like, I need a new husband. And, like, I can't believe I've dealt with this for 40 years. And just. And she'll, like, say it in, like, a yelling way.

[Nick]

Like, well, you can let your mom know that every husband's pretty good at ignoring.

[Alyssa]

And I was.

[Kayla]

And I, like, have been like, hey, dad, like, you know, can you, like, try to respond a little bit?

[Nick]

You know, he probably doesn't hear her.

[Kayla]

And then he's also been like, well, a lot of times she says things that are really hurtful. So I'm either just processing or I just, like, don't respond because what she says is hurtful.

[Nick]

Sure.

[Kayla]

Like, well, it's, like, kind of making it work.

[Nick]

Yeah. No one's saying that your dad's perfect or that your mom doesn't have a right to be frustrated. It is how your mom communicates that frustration. Yeah. It's just really how your mom, you know, is. Your mom's the main character in her life, and she's not going to stop being the main character until she has to, I guess, is my very unprofessional advice. Maybe there's a therapist out there that is like, here, just say this and it will all work. I don't know.

[Kayla]

But no, my therapist has just been kind of like, well, you should, like, redefine the relationship with your mom. Like. Like, I don't really know what to do with that. I'm like, how. And he was just kind of like.

[Nick]

I don't know, saying no, it's not giving in. It's standing your ground. And to say, mom, listen, I love you. You are my best friend. And obviously it makes me sad if you're not going to want to talk to me, but, like, you're wrong. We both know you're wrong. I'm not going to let you talk that way about my dad to me. You can do it. I can't tell you how to speak to him, but I can certainly control that. That. Listen, if you, if you. You could be mad at me. Mom, I don't, you know, fine, be mad. Don't talk to me. Give me the silent treatment. Mom, I get what you're going to do. Call her out on her, you know, and just let me know when you want to talk. I'm obviously here, Mom. I'm never going to. I'm never going to do that to you. I don't do that to you. But I think, you know, some tough love and you standing up to the bully is probably, I don't. I don't know a lot of ways to get through to bully and standing up to them.

[Kayla]

Yeah, I think she just, like. She knows she has that power of me and where she'll, like, be awkward around me or, you know, give me treatment, whatever, that I will just, like, end up giving in because I just, like, can't stand it, you know?

[Nick]

Yeah. And listen, listen. It's not going to be easy. You. How old are you again? 13 year 30s.

[Taylor]

34.

[Kayla]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah. That's 34 years of this. Is this. This dynamic? You know, your parents have been married for how long? That's been their dynamic. I don't see your mom giving up easily.

[Alyssa]

No.

[Nick]

But she needs you and probably your dad more than she acknowledges or appreciates. And you just have to believe in that and let your mom figure it out.

[Kayla]

And then like, also when I tell her this, she'll just be like, well, I don't know what I'm allowed to talk to you about and what I'm not. And I'm like, well, I just, like.

[Nick]

Told you, your mom, you can be. You can. You can talk to me about everything, even about dad, but it's how you talk about him. Him and you, honestly, mom, are just super disrespectful to him. Like, you could be mad at him, but it's just like, again, I don't like. Mom, I don't need to explain to you, you know, I don't Like, I don't. When your mom acts like the. Oh, my God, you know, like, your mom's not a victim.

[Alyssa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And, like, don't dumb yourself down. Like, when she, you know, like, she knows, like, don't play the game. Your mom is very, you know, good at, you know, your mom's probably also a little manipulative. You know what I'm saying? Like, when it feels like he's manipulating you and playing dumb and, like, having you, like, say things, it's like you've also known the answer to this. Like, why am I repeating myself? Just be like, I don't, Mom. You know, if you can't figure it out, then I don't know how to help you. But, like, I know you know, so, you know, just stop that now. He's gotta be very matter of fact and very unafraid and unbothered by her guilt and her. Her disconnecting from you, which I know is annoying. You'll miss your mom and it's frustrating. But, like, I think that will be your biggest hurdle and I don't doubt. And it will be hard because you're not used to it. It's uncomfortable for you. And your mom is really good at getting under your skin and giving you this very anxious feeling when she is disappointed in you.

[Kayla]

Right? Yeah. She'll, like, like, if it goes on for a while, like, I don't know, a week or so, she'll be like, well, since you don't want me in your life anymore, like, we need to figure out how I'm gonna be able to. To see your kids and we need to come up with a schedule. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, all this drama.

[Nick]

I think you, when she says stuff like that, be like, mom, first of all, you're being ridiculous. Second of all, like, you need us to grow up and stop doing this and stop being manipulative. But also, mom, if you're going to play this game, I'm just letting you know I'm not backing down. So, like, you know, whenever you're ready to own up to what you know you need to own up to, but, like, no, I don't have to do anything as it relates to, like, figuring anything out. When it comes to my kids, I'm in charge. Mom, these are my kids. So, no, I don't have to do anything.

[Alyssa]

Yeah.

[Kayla]

And I'm not gonna, like, hold my kids from her because she is, like, mad over something again.

[Nick]

You're not even the one who's asking for distance. So I would remind her of that, like, Mom, I don't, like, I don't know. You're. You're throwing a pity party. You are, you are dissing yourself from me. I'm not from you. I don't have to. To figure anything else out. So again, I'm not asking for much, Mom. I'm just asking you to respect my dad. You don't even have you can to someone else. I'm just saying don't do it to me. And if that's not even a tough ask, you shouldn't want to talk about my father to me that way. You know? Like, it's just not how people treat people. And I think you need to acknowledge that, Mom. And I think we can all, like, still better ourselves. And I think that's. Mom, that's something you need to work on. I hope that you're willing to work on it, Mom. And if you can't do that, then that's, that's a you problem. Mom. I'm gonna be okay. I, I, I'm comfortable with how I talk to my husband. And listen, mom, I love you. I'm gonna love you no matter what. And I still want to spend time with you, but, like, that's all I'm asking. It's not that hard, you know? And we can still talk every day. And if you don't want to do that, that's fine. And if you, you know, call it her out. You're throwing a temper tantrum, Mom. Like, you can do that now. You're the adult. You know, it's kind of fun when you find that strength, because when you were 16 or 17, you couldn't do that. Now you can be like, hey, up.

[Kayla]

She has a way of, like, twisting things sometimes, too.

[Nick]

I have no doubt.

[Kayla]

Yeah, when, like, when I told my dad, I was like, hey, Q. Trying to, like, answer her more. The next day, we were with one of her friends, and she was, like, telling her friends, like, oh, like, now, like, Kayla sees the light, and I'm.

[Alyssa]

Like, wait, what are you talking about?

[Kayla]

She's like, she seals what I put up with now, blah, blah. I'm like, wait.

[Alyssa]

I'm, like, not on her side.

[Kayla]

So it's just, like, me even, like, giving her that little nugget of, like, hey, dad, you gotta answer more like, she totally, like, like, twisted it into, like, now I'm on her side and, like, opens the door to, like, she wants, like, me and her to, like, gang up on my dad, and I'm just, like, not gonna do that.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah. Listen, I'm sure your mom bitches to her friends about you.

[Kayla]

Yeah, sure she does.

[Nick]

Yeah. Listen, your mom's the main character. She's kind of, you know, she's a bully again, like, what are we talking about here? Like, your. If your mom doesn't think it's. Understand. If your mom doesn't understand how hurtful it is, is every time she gets frustrated at your dad to, like, low key, threaten to leave him or make him feel less than as a human or just kind of call him stupid or things like that or. And just trying to be mean, you know, the hurt people hurt people. Like, she's upset, so she tries to hurt him. If she can't understand that, that's a her, that's her problem. It's like you need to find that balance between love, giving your mom love, and gentle parenting, in a way, with not letting your mom's manipulation get you to back down from what you know is right and stand your ground.

[Kayla]

Yeah. Like, sometimes I feel like I'll either, you know, shrug it off and not say anything and just be quiet or, like, I'll say what I told you earlier or like there's been times where I'm just like, oh, my gosh, you need to, like, talk to therapist to, like, like, you know, talk about all the crazy that goes on in your head. And she gets, like, really bad. But I just feel like she just pushes me to a point where sometimes I can't even, like, where I get, like, really need back. You know what I mean?

[Nick]

Yeah. Try not to be, you know, don't. Just don't list, you know, don't listen to it. And I think you just got to recognize when your mom's acting this way, where it's coming from, and just say.

[Kayla]

You know, I don't really know where it's coming from, honestly.

[Nick]

But I mean, like, I don't know. I mean, I mean, I'm not saying it's not your job to like, like therapizer. I'm just saying you're. You just know your mom's acting out.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And don't try to figure. I don't. Yeah. But I guess that's kind of my point. Don't. You don't need to figure it out. You're not your therapist.

[Kayla]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[Nick]

But you need. You know that it's wrong. You know, you're right.

[Alyssa]

Right.

[Nick]

You know, it's. You know, she knows.

[Kayla]

I don't know that she does. I'm like, wondering if she's, like, a little like, the Lulu, you know, I'm.

[Nick]

Sure we all are a little Delulu, but I'm just saying, like. Like when she says things like, I need a new husband, you know, when. Listen. And when you call your mom out, she doesn't say, I'm not doing it. She says, I'm doing this because this. Right. It's more. It's more of that. Yeah, yeah. And that's what I'm saying is like, she knows, so she's justifying it. You know, she's not so much dilute. You know, she's like, she. Again, that's her acknowledging it. It's like, I, I do do this, but I do. But I have a reason. You know, her reason might be delusional, but she's not like, she knows what she's doing. And you have to stop a lot. You have to stop giving in to her justifications.

[Kayla]

Right.

[Nick]

I just, like, she's not a victim.

[Kayla]

I don't think she knows what she's doing is wrong.

[Nick]

I mean, I don't know. I don't ever met your mom, and I. But I guess maybe in a way, I get what you're saying. I, I just. And I'm sure your mom does feel right, but I, I. The idea that your mom can't comprehend you saying some of the things, the example you gave, and she can't comprehend why her daughter doesn't want to hear that is, you know, I don't know.

[Kayla]

Right.

[Nick]

A little, you know, a bit of a problem. I think it's. I think we're better off giving your mom the benefit of the doubt, because otherwise, like, what's the alternative? Like, she's, I don't know, so sociopath, or like, she can't comprehend. Yeah, I. I wouldn't say it either. That's what I'm saying. I just think. I think your mom's really, really good at being the main character, at being a bully and acting like a victim in a situation where she gets called out.

[Kayla]

Yeah. She's queen of just finding a way to just turn it around, and then now I'm the villain, you know?

[Nick]

Yeah. But she hasn't had to wake up, so to speak, and realize or acknowledge her faults. That doesn't mean she's incapable of realizing it. And in real time. She's just so good at getting away with it, and you're so bad at stopping her from getting away with it as it relates to, like, your relationship. I mean, it's not your job to save your mom, but as far as your relationship and you Enforcing your boundaries. I think this is a, definitely a good, like, reminder when it comes to boundaries that it's not your mom's job to necessarily you. She doesn't enforce your boundaries. You do. And you're not enforcing your boundaries when it comes to that. You. You acknowledge that you give in.

[Kayla]

Oh, totally.

[Nick]

So, you know, she just knows, even if it's subconscious, that it's just a waiting game and that she just has to be. She has to have more conviction than you, and she does. In the history of your relationship, you've probably apologized thousands of times and she may have never apologized once to you, Right?

[Kayla]

Yeah, it's usually me.

[Nick]

So until she feels like you mean business, damn business, and that her manipulation doesn't work anymore, I don't see much change on her part. But the good news is I do feel like this is someone who needs you and counts on your connection and relationship as much as you connect on that. And if you can find the strength to follow through with enforcing your boundaries, I think you can make a lot of progress.

[Kayla]

Okay. Yeah.

[Nick]

But it won't be easy and it will take time and it's not going to happen overnight.

[Kayla]

Yeah, I haven't really thought about it as like, finding strength in myself. I've more thought about it of like, okay, what's a different way to save the same thing to make her change her behavior.

[Nick]

But yeah, I think, yeah, I see.

[Kayla]

How I could approach it.

[Nick]

Let go of that narrative. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't think there's a. This is not about a magic way of getting through to your mom. This is about your mom not wanting to acknowledge that she's right and, and, and, and having a lifetime of getting away with it.

[Kayla]

Totally. My husband's kind of like, said similar things in different words of like, you need to stand up to your mom more like stop letting her, you know, treat you like that and stuff like that.

[Nick]

So, yeah, and let. And allow your husband to support you in that journey, you know, like, because that won't be easy. And when those times you're my mom's pulling away and you feel that disconnect with your mom and that connection relationship that you really rely on, which I don't doubt that you do let your help husband help you out, you know, give you that reassurance that it's gonna be okay and she's gonna come around and like, that she is doing, you know, but like, yeah, allow him to help you if he's willing to help, because you, you have to get you have to work through with that moment where you just feel so anxious that you haven't talked to your mom in a period of time. And that part of you that, like, isn't, you know, that makes you afraid that you, You. You're. You're almost about to reach the point of no return when it comes to your mom. So you need to concede and give in and apologize or else. And he is there to. And he, you know, allow your husband to give you the reassurance that mom's not going anywhere now that you're in this phase of your life or you have young kids and you're, you know, or, you know, like you got way more going on than your mom does. And life will only get lonelier and lonelier for your mom because that's what happens when you get older. And, you know, it worked maybe for a while now, but I think your mom is maybe up for rude awakening at some point, and the sooner, the better.

[Kayla]

Yeah, I feel like a lot of, you know, this behavior happens just like when she's stressed about other things and then she just kind of like piles it on.

[Nick]

We often take it out. You know, we take it out on the people we love the most because we, we can't. We can get away with it. You know, there are probably a lot of other people in your mom's life who have noticed this pattern in this behavior, and they were like, you know, I just don't with her anymore. Your mom knows you and your dad aren't going anywhere, and she's taking that for granted. And listen, your mom's not a monster. Like we have, we have all done that until certain degrees. So, like, your mom is just a human. It's. But if you want it to change, I think that's the only way it's going to change.

[Alyssa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Okay. I. I bet. I'm willing to bet your mom knows what it's like for people to shut her out. And your mom knows the feeling of someone being like, I don't with them that person anymore. And I bet that's a soft spot for your mom in a way. And so the sooner you can make your mom feel that.

[Kayla]

And she knows how I feel too, when she shuts me out. Like, I've told her, I'm like, you.

[Alyssa]

Know, when you do this, it, like.

[Kayla]

It makes me like, sick to my stomach.

[Alyssa]

Like, I hate it.

[Nick]

Like, that's why she does it.

[Alyssa]

You.

[Nick]

You see that you have to do the opposite. Communicate those feelings to your husband. That's what he's there as far as your mom goes, knew you. You are unbothered because you don't want that type of energy. And like, hey, I'm sad, mom, but I'm gonna be okay. I'm too busy with all these things going on in my life and. And your grandkids that I have to raise. And I'm working on my relationship with my husband and our connection. And honestly, Mom, I love you and I do miss you, but, like, listen, you gotta figure it out. I'm not here to figure it out. But you saying, hey, mom, this really bothers me that that is her. You are validating her choices in a way. You're like, oh, good, good, because that's why I wanted you to feel that way.

[Kayla]

Right.

[Nick]

Because now I'm gonna get what I want. You know, give it two more days. And you're gonna about to apologize to me because you can't go on like this. And your mom just has a little more will. Your mom has more willpower than you have. And she knows she's in control. So you telling her that in a up way reinforces her decision to keep doing exactly what she's doing. Okay, I know it's up, but.

[Kayla]

I mean, I, like, thought she would feel bad about how she makes me feel.

[Nick]

Instead of she doesn't feel. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, but, you know, that's what I'm saying. Your mom's the main character. She is more focused on how she feels. Her daughter won't talk to her. Her daughter won't talk. You know, your mom is good at centering her feelings over everyone else, including her kids, certainly her adult children. I don't know. You know, but like, you know, again, she's not the only mom or parent who's done that. It's not, you know, it's not the end of the world. She knows you're okay and she's fine. And she justifies it, like, hey, you can. She has a happy marriage. I don't know what she's probably about. Like, I'm the one who's complaining about my marriage. You know, like, she's got, you know, right. She has. She has all these ways to justify why she is able to make herself the main character in everyone's story and why her feelings are more valid and more right than yours.

[Kayla]

Yeah, she's just kind of like, oh, well, like, talk to me when you've been married 40 years.

[Alyssa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And her. Every time you communicate your fears and feelings about that, her and her. Her. But she probably Even says it out loud, but. Or if nothing else inside is like, well, how do you think? I think.

[Taylor]

Feel. Yeah.

[Nick]

Imagine what it's like to be me, talk to me in 40 years. You know, like, okay, mom, cool again. Like, you need to see it for what it is, and you just. You just stop putting up with it. Okay.

[Kayla]

I can do that.

[Nick]

I'll try it. Okay. Good luck. Kimi Pas. I'd love to know how this goes.

[Kayla]

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Okay. I can find the strength.

[Nick]

This doesn't get solved without your mom getting really mad at you and you fe. And. And you going through a period of your mom not talking to you and. And really throwing a huge temper tantrum like you've never seen before. You know, equate it to, like, you know, like, any movie you've ever seen about, like, an addict, you know, getting clean and. And going through, like, the. The withdrawals of. Of something they've their body isn't used to, which is to be clean and sober. And in a very similar way, I think your mom is. To get through this, you know, she's gonna have to go through a withdrawal of what it feels like for you to finally not give in to her demands. And when that happens, she's gonna really act out in a way that you've probably never seen before. That will be a really important moment for you to, like, not give in.

[Kayla]

What do you think it'll look like?

[Nick]

Will she just, like, she'll say things that are even more hurtful. She really won't talk to you. She really, you know, you've. You've given her the roadmap in the playbook of how to hurt you. She'll do. And she. You know, because your mom will be very hurt. She'll feel like the victim. She will. Can't. She won't be able to believe that her daughter's doing this to her. And that will hurt your mom, and she will be hurt. Her feelings will feel hurt, and as a result, she is going to get back at you.

[Kayla]

But then how do we move out of it?

[Nick]

And she gets over it, be friends. She real. Yeah. It's like, you know, it's like the addict finally kind of comes out of it, gets clean. You know, the body realizes, like, you know. You know, she'll come around when she knows it doesn't work, then she'll have to figure something else out because your mom's not going anywhere. I don't think. From what I can tell, she's always had you. She needs you. It seems like she just, you know, it's just reframing the expectations of your relationship. And I think in the, in the meantime, if she's doing that, always, always make yourself available to show your mom love, that you are there for her. Because again, you can say, you can say to someone, I love you unconditionally. I am always here for you if you need. But if you can't respect my boundaries, I need to create some space. But I am always still here from you that. Don't, don't make that as you know, and if you don't want to see me right now, but I am not going to put up with this, this or this. If you and I, you know what I'm saying? And knowing the difference between still sending love, still being there, and still like I'm, you know, checking in on your mom, even if she's not taking your calls and reaching out to her, never give her that, like, well, you abandoned me. You know what I'm saying? You can still do that without and still enforce your boundaries.

[Kayla]

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I've definitely never done that because, like, usually when there is space for, you know, a couple days a week or whatever, and then she'll like come back at me, she'll send me some big, long, mean text message that gets me all riled up and then I'll fight back with her and then, you know, I'll say things that are hurtful too.

[Nick]

And yeah, don't do that. I, in fact, I would respond back, be like, I didn't read this. I don't read long text messages.

[Kayla]

Oh, my gosh, she'll send me a novel.

[Nick]

Be like, I don't read them. But again, like, mom, this isn't complicated. I don't need to argue semantics with you. I'm not going to engage in this anymore. When you are ready to acknowledge what we both know is right, you'll let me know. It's that simple. Dumb it down, don't get activated. You know, she wants to you to fight back with fire. She want, you know, she's. She wants you to play her game. You need to get her to play yours.

[Kayla]

Okay.

[Nick]

All right.

[Alyssa]

All right.

[Kayla]

Well, thank you.

[Nick]

Keep me posted.

[Kayla]

Will do.

[Nick]

All right, take care.

[Alyssa]

All right.

[Nick]

Bye.

[Alyssa]

Bye.

[Nick]

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