Melanie - Caller about dating (3:12)

Okay, so I give a little context of my question. So I have been single for the past four years. I came out of a long term relationship and I have been, you know, trying to navigate the dating scene and I've had a lot of bad luck. And I've been working with a therapist in this time and what she's told me for majority of things with men is that I'm too intimidating. That's why things aren't working out.

Nick Viall (3:48)

Did she elaborate on what she meant by intimidating? And I guess my follow up question to that is, was that like a news to you? Were you like, whoa, never heard that before? Or did it like kind of, was it somewhat in line with maybe feedback or you've gotten before?

Melanie - Caller about dating (4:04)

You know, kind of like I could kind of see what she's saying. Like, she kind of gives me context, like, you know, I got a good career, I take care of myself. Um, but a part of me just like doesn't fully believe it because I also have girlfriends that are just as successful as me, take care of themselves, you know, and they are able to find, you know, the problem is for a lot of these guys is like, I can't even get a follow up after a first date. Like, or. And now it's even progressed to even more. I can't even get like a date. Like they'll ask me on a date and then I'll get ghosted.

Nick Viall (4:43)

Okay, back to what your therapist was saying. Like, is it just. Is she just referencing the fact that you have a successful career and that you take care of yourself? Like that it.

Melanie - Caller about dating (4:55)

Yeah, I mean, like, I think she. Yes, I think she really emphasizes it mainly on the career. So I have my own business, which I mean is, you know, not. I know not everyone has it, but I'm not like, I really don't see myself as better than most with that.

Nick Viall (5:13)

Like, I think, how do you bring. I mean, like, I guess. Okay, so back to you mentioned recently. I'm assuming a lot of the people you're connecting with are on the apps, so to speak, you know.

Melanie - Caller about dating (5:24)

Yes, in the past, but not honestly, not really anymore.

Nick Viall (5:27)

All right, so give me a couple examples of like, how did you meet these guys that you, I don't know, exchange numbers, whatever. Communicated a little bit.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (5:35)

And.

Nick Viall (5:36)

And then they just like, disappeared or like, again. What. What are you guys. What are you talking about? You know, like, I mean, I'm just like, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm trying to figure out what. Because on its face it's like, yeah, maybe, you know, listen, people are flaky these days. They're non committal. You're going to. It's going to. That's going to happen to everyone. But you make it seem like, you know, this is. It's becoming a thing. It's getting into your head and you're trying to assess, you know, what, what can you do about it?

Melanie - Caller about dating (6:02)

Right, Exactly. Like I've noticed, it's really becoming a pattern. So, for example, this past year, I met a guy out at a bar. I met another guy at a concert. I met another guy at like a wellness center. So it's like a variety of places. And then I could say one off the apps I was talking to and they'll all kind of lead with like, I want to take you out. And I'm like, great. And then I never, never hear from them again. And I'm like, I don't.

Nick Viall (6:30)

So.

Sponsor Voice (6:31)

But that's all that's happening.

Nick Viall (6:32)

You meet, they see your face, you exchange some information or whatever and then they disappear. Yeah.

Melanie - Caller about dating (6:39)

And then sometimes, like one recently came back and asked me out again and I said yes and it like, again. So I'm just like, I just, I mean, listen, I.

Nick Viall (6:51)

The situations you're describing, I just feel like that's just. How. How do they even know what you do?

Melanie - Caller about dating (6:56)

I mean, just like talking in passing. I don't know if it's. See, that's the thing is like, I don't know if it's always my career because it's like, I don't really talk about it. It's not like a big part of me.

Nick Viall (7:07)

Well, that's what I'm trying to figure again, like.

Sponsor Voice (7:09)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (7:09)

What you're describing right now, the situation you're just describing, sadly, flaky people and people who are non committal. I don't know. And maybe you're just having a string of bad luck. I mean, you're just saying, hey, I met a guy at a concert, I met a guy at a bar. I met a guy at a wellness center. He saw my face, I saw his. We didn't really know. That's all we really knew about each other, you know?

Melanie - Caller about dating (7:30)

Right.

Nick Viall (7:30)

We exchanged numbers. They didn't follow through. Like, they don't know really what I do. I mean, maybe they googled you, you know, maybe. Listen, I'm sure there's plenty of men out there, no doubt, that can be intimidated by women who are successful. I think most men, even if the met for the men who would be intimidated by that don't want to acknowledge that. They wouldn't say that outright. They wouldn't, you know, I don't think most men would say, oh no, she's successful, she's got money. I don't like that, you know, because.

Sponsor Voice (8:01)

That would have to be.

Nick Viall (8:01)

That would be almost like them looking in the mirror and saying, well, I'm not good enough for her. Yeah, I don't, I don't think right away a lot of men admit that to themselves. Right. I think, I mean, again, I'm speaking in generalities, but. No, no, yeah, I'm sure there are, you know, the men who do get intimidated. I think it's probably after the men who do get intimidated about women's careers and maybe your self confidence and self assurity in yourself. And you know, I think that often comes after a few dates of getting to know each other and kind of feeling like, you know, and I think the typical probably explanation is, you know, listen, like generally guys like bleed generally guys are kind of acts of service people who want to take care of their people. They want to feel, you know, I guess in their masculine, you know, whatever that means or whatever. And you know, there are maybe nuances in dynamics in relationships where, you know, they're not feeling that and maybe you guys can adjust or whatever. That's not what you're describing. You're just like, I don't know, I've met a couple of flaky guys. I gave them my number and they didn't follow through. You know, like, am I not hot enough or what the, you know.

Melanie - Caller about dating (9:03)

Yeah, I mean, I kind of can't help but start thinking that because I'm like, my friends will talk about and like, and I get it, like not everything's going to work out, but it's just like I can't even get to from point A to point B to see what point C is.

Nick Viall (9:17)

Well, how long has this been going on? I mean like, what are we talking here? Is this like, has this happened three times and you're just like spiraling or, you know.

Melanie - Caller about dating (9:24)

No, it's kind of been like, it's so. It's been just getting progressively worse this past year. It's been happening these past three times. But like I will say when I was recently out of my last relationship, I did have like some Things with these, like, two guys I can think of, and I guess it was. And like, they kind of just ended up becoming flakes too. And it's just like. I mean, I guess things fizzle in a way. I just.

Nick Viall (9:53)

I don't. What. Tell me about your last relationship. What did it end?

Melanie - Caller about dating (9:55)

So I was actually married and I got divorced. It was about 10. We were together for 10 years. We were only married for six. Um, kind of got a long engagement and then couldn't really get out of the whole wedding plan thing.

Nick Viall (10:10)

So you're still married for six years? It's not like.

Melanie - Caller about dating (10:12)

No, no, I was married for six months.

Nick Viall (10:14)

Six months?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (10:15)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (10:16)

You were together for 10 years? Yeah. Married for six months?

Melanie - Caller about dating (10:19)

Yeah. When you signed for a venue, it's kind of hard to back out. And so what do you mean.

Nick Viall (10:23)

What do you mean by that?

Melanie - Caller about dating (10:24)

So, like, we got engaged, we signed for a venue, and then how long.

Nick Viall (10:28)

Are you engaged for?

Melanie - Caller about dating (10:29)

Two years.

Nick Viall (10:30)

Okay.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (10:31)

So.

Melanie - Caller about dating (10:31)

And then co. It was around covet.

Nick Viall (10:32)

So dated for eight years, finally got engaged. Yeah. Yeah. And then from there.

Melanie - Caller about dating (10:38)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (10:40)

What was that breakup like?

Melanie - Caller about dating (10:41)

I mean, you know, it was.

Nick Viall (10:44)

It.

Melanie - Caller about dating (10:45)

I was. It should have happened a long time before it actually did happen.

Nick Viall (10:50)

So you weren't devastated by it?

Melanie - Caller about dating (10:53)

No, I. I processed it a lot. I really tried for those last few years. Really tried hard to make it work. And it just wasn't in like we did. You know, I was in individual therapy also at that point in couples, and I just. When I cut ties, I was done. I, like, was.

Nick Viall (11:12)

That was how long ago?

Melanie - Caller about dating (11:13)

Four years ago.

Nick Viall (11:14)

Four years ago. Okay. And you haven't dated anyone since? More than like.

Melanie - Caller about dating (11:20)

No, Like, I really have not had any luck in dating. And it's like.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (11:25)

Like.

Melanie - Caller about dating (11:25)

Like no one. Like, it just seems like for a lot.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (11:29)

Don't.

Melanie - Caller about dating (11:30)

It almost just seems like they don't take me seriously. And I just don't understand what. How I'm messing that up.

Nick Viall (11:38)

What do you. Why do you feel like they don't take you seriously?

Melanie - Caller about dating (11:41)

I don't get asked out on dates or like. Or follow through or like, pursued, I guess is a good way of putting. I don't feel like no one really pursues me. And people be like, I feel like people probably are asking you out. And I'm like, well, no, I really don't get asked out.

Nick Viall (11:59)

I. I just.

Melanie - Caller about dating (11:59)

I don't know if I'm giving off a bad signal.

Nick Viall (12:02)

I mean, listen, I. I don't. You know, it's interesting, you know, listen, you were. You were with a guy for 10 years.

Melanie - Caller about dating (12:10)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (12:10)

And in that time, I think the dating landscape changed a lot.

Melanie - Caller about dating (12:14)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (12:15)

You know, even for the people who were. When. When they were dating. You know, I've been out of the dating scene for a while now when you're like, wow, wait a minute. But I wonder how much it has changed. You know, like, obviously we. I talk to a lot of people who like you who are. Who are dating, and, you know, the message is always, you know, listen, it's difficult out there. It's challenging. You know, I mean, listen, I don't know. Not to sound more discouraging. I mean, I'm sure there's some. There's some element to. Yeah. Maybe just like, maybe men lost their way in terms of pursuing. You know, I don't. Yeah, maybe there's a little bit of that. Who are the guys you're like, what. When you want to say, like, the type of guys you're going for is that they are all the same. Is there a variety? It's. It just. It doesn't really matter what they look like or what they do. These guys tend to be 10. Flaky.

Melanie - Caller about dating (13:02)

You know, I mean, I guess physically I kind of have a type, but they kind of. They have varied. I have worked with what my therapist saying of, like, up leveling more in. Like. Like, I could think of the first guy I dated was, like, living at home. And not that anything wrong with living at home, but like, no job, no aspirations.

Nick Viall (13:24)

Yeah, I think I, you know, I'm sure there is. Yeah. Like, listen, I don't. Maybe there's nothing wrong with being in your 30s and living at home if you're a guy, but I think. I think you have the right to raise some eyebrows. I think you have the right to go, yeah, I wonder what the reason is. You know, I don't think. Yeah, I. I think you're allowed to question that, you know, especially again, for someone like yourself. Right. Like, you are. It's hard to. It's hard. It's hard to start your own business. It's even harder to make that remotely successful and sustainable, even to break even and even more hard to, like, make a living out of it where you feel like, yeah, I mean, I'm, you know, pretty successful and, you know, I'm my own boss and I'm kind of doing my own thing. That takes a certain level of drive and commitment and perseverance and, like, not easy to do. You've done that. Right. That's the literally opposite of the guy who's living with his parents. For whatever reason, you know, like, I mean, like, listen, I. I was 28. Ish. Me and my then girlfriend, fiance, whatever, had a breakup, moved in. I moved in with grandma for. For six, seven months. You know, very temporary situation. If you asked me, I knew why. I was like, yeah, well, you know, it was better than living with her. So there was a reason. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I did it, and it was a memorable experience in my life, and I'll always remember it because I got to bond with grandma, and I certainly never imagined I'd be 28 and doing it, but, like, you know, as opposed to be like, yeah, I just. I don't know, it's like, cheaper than getting my own place. And, you know, my room's there at mom and dad's, and like, I don't know, like, why not? You know, like, yeah, two very different situations. Right. And so what, you know, it's like, yeah, it's not. It's not the end of the world. I'm not saying you have to run, but I think for. Especially for someone like yourself, you know, it probably not your guy.

Melanie - Caller about dating (15:17)

Yeah, no, we. And like. And I lived at home, too, post divorce, so I'm like, I'm not against living at home. It was just. I become more conscious of the men. Now I'm starting to pick. And that's also where I'm coming into problems, is like, okay, I'm picking more guys similar to me that are, you know, more driven, take care of themselves. You know, we're kind of at the same level that. And it just. It. I think. I mean, it is. I just wanted to hear from your side because I love listening to your podcast, and I feel like you have a really good take on dating and life that, like, you know, what. Is it the current dating climate, or am I, like, missing something?

Nick Viall (15:57)

Like, probably both. Right? I think.

Melanie - Caller about dating (16:00)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (16:00)

I think we can acknowledge that dating is hard. And I think there are a lot of. I think probably especially for women like you who are successful and like, you. You. You know, you don't need a man, you know, type of thing. You know, like, you're not. There might. There might be women who maybe are more traditional, conservative, who, like, wake up, you know, who grow up to, you know, and their plan is to, you know, if you're from the south or the Midwest, it's like, yeah, what do you want to do? It's like, I want to. Want to find a husband. I want to get married. I want to be a mom. I want to have kids. And I know I want, you know, and that's great, you know, for them, like that's not you. And also like you're probably more than normal now than. Anyways. But this is all, all to say, yeah, like it requires and I think for, for, for women like you. I guess my point is, is like. Yeah, I think, yeah. In the past five or 10 years, there's a lot of conversations around and in different pockets of the Internet in terms of like, you know, the loneliness of men and what's wrong with men and part, you know, a lot of, you know, it's like, has the, you know, has there been an over correction, you know, in terms of how we've spoke about or treated men? Yada, yada, yada. Has. How's, you know, I don't know how's that affected them? That being said, I don't feel like, you know, in the past five years, like all men completely lost their way, you know, and you know, they're all like online playing video games. I don't think, I mean, I think maybe like the younger generations are even more concerned about. But like, you know, you're during your early 30s, you know, like you, you probably should be dating men who you know, are your age or a little older. And I think, you know, it can't be that bad. And I guess. Yeah, listen, I think for all of us, to answer your question, I'm being long winded here, but like, yes, there is probably something that you haven't discovered about yourself. I'm trying to figure out what that is. But right now I'm hearing, you know, you can barely get a second date with anyone. And so wait, when you go, what, what first dates have you had that you felt like were good, that you were open to a second date, but.

Melanie - Caller about dating (18:04)

They weren't like, I mean, it's something as simple as like coffee and a walk. Like, I am okay with like casual first dates.

Nick Viall (18:11)

I'm not asking you to describe your perfect first date. I'm asking what first dates have you had that you can remember where you had a good time, you left that first date being like, nice time. I'm interested in learning more. And then he just disappeared and you thought, oh, what the fuck happened? Like, I thought we had a nice time. Do you. Are there a handful of those situations?

Melanie - Caller about dating (18:32)

Yeah, there's a couple I can think of. Yeah. I mean, there's been obviously first dates too where I'm like, oh no, like this is. This isn't it either. But there's been a few. Yeah. Where I'm Just like, I, I don't know, I thought it was good and like, I don't know.

Nick Viall (18:47)

When you're on dates, do you do more most of talking or. No.

Melanie - Caller about dating (18:51)

Honestly, probably. I feel like I really tried to work on like being. I feel like if anything, I nervously will go more to talking, asking them questions.

Nick Viall (19:04)

Okay.

Melanie - Caller about dating (19:05)

I think with my field of work that like, I'm very, I work with a lot of people and I'm used to like talking to people and like, you know, getting to know them.

Nick Viall (19:17)

Are you driving the conversation?

Melanie - Caller about dating (19:19)

Sometimes? I mean, there's some dates where it's like the dates that are good, I will say the ones that are good, they're asking me questions just as much back and those are. I think that's what really makes them. Me like them more in a way.

Nick Viall (19:34)

Do you, this is kind of a general question, but do you think when you are on dates, do you see if the men that you go on dates with are willing or capable of leading?

Melanie - Caller about dating (19:46)

I, you know, maybe not.

Sponsor Voice (19:50)

I don't know.

Melanie - Caller about dating (19:50)

I mean, like, that's, you know, I pro, you know, I wouldn't say I think I do, but I'm starting to question if I really do, if you know what I mean. Like, do I really, like.

Nick Viall (20:02)

Are you the one suggesting the spots? Are you.

Melanie - Caller about dating (20:05)

No, no, no. I, I, you know what? No, I do let them lead in that sense. I, I'm not asking them out, I'm not initiating. But I do, I feel like I, I will say it can have a tendency to drive the conversation a bit.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (20:18)

I don't know.

Melanie - Caller about dating (20:19)

Yeah. But no, I'm not initiating or leading dates.

Nick Viall (20:22)

That's. Yeah, and that's not the end of the world. We're, I'm just trying, I'm nitpicking here, trying to, you know. Do you have any other like, dating examples where you're like, you were really confused by the outcome?

Melanie - Caller about dating (20:34)

I mean, yeah, like, there's like, there's just. I'm trying to think. I mean, it's just like, it's, it's so limited my dating experience. It's like I can't like, there's never been multiple dates where I've been like, I don't understand what happened. It's just kind of like it's one day and then they're gone and it's just like, I don't quite get it. And it's just like. And I'll even like sometimes even text the follow up and I now, I.

Nick Viall (21:03)

Don'T know, are they like, what do they look, like, physically. Are they all like really pretty men?

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (21:09)

No.

Melanie - Caller about dating (21:10)

I mean, I find them attractive, but I don't know if like my friends would say they're pretty. Like they're taller guys with beards. I mean, it's.

Nick Viall (21:23)

So like, basically, there you go. How tall are you?

Melanie - Caller about dating (21:27)

I'm five, six.

Nick Viall (21:29)

Okay, and the men that you're dating, are they always over six foot?

Melanie - Caller about dating (21:34)

Yeah, I mean, like that. I'll be honest, I don't aim. Like, it's not like I'm like, I need six foot. It's just kind of how you just.

Nick Viall (21:44)

Oh, you only happen to only date them.

Melanie - Caller about dating (21:46)

Well, okay. I actually have gone on. Now I think about it, I've gone on dates with guys that are like 5, 10, 511 or 5, 9, even like, or even shorter. Shorter than me without even realizing it.

Nick Viall (21:58)

You're saying how often though?

Melanie - Caller about dating (22:00)

Seriously though, the shorter guys.

Nick Viall (22:03)

Yeah. And they. Were they the same flaky people that.

Melanie - Caller about dating (22:06)

Yeah, yeah, like, yeah, they were. Yeah.

Nick Viall (22:10)

So five, nine or six, four. You just can't get a second date to save your life? Doesn't matter. No, I mean, I just have a hard time believing that.

Melanie - Caller about dating (22:19)

Just I, I just like. Or no, it's like I can't even get a first date now. Like, I can't get them. Like, they'll be like, so, you know.

Nick Viall (22:27)

Right now it's so bad that you could go to the grocery store and see this, like an average looking 5, 7 GU. And you don't think you can land a date with them?

Melanie - Caller about dating (22:36)

No. Like they like, like, no. Like I went out the other week and like, like I don't know what it. Like they don't want to even talk to me and I'm like, I don't.

Nick Viall (22:47)

I just do. You stink.

Melanie - Caller about dating (22:50)

I hope not.

Nick Viall (22:53)

I just like, I don't. Something's not adding up. I don't know. You're. You're a lovely looking person. You, you know, again, I don't know what you do for work, but you, you, you seem like you have your shit together. I mean, I've been talking for 20 minutes. Like, oh, you seem fine, right? Like you, you know, talking to you, you, you listen, you have an energy that's, you know. Yeah. You can tell that. You have a confidence in you and you can tell that you're not a. You're not demure. Like, I wouldn't describe you as demure, you know, great. I don't think there's a lot. I don't think. I think there's plenty of men out there who aren't looking for a dainty little flower to protect and be their knight in shining armor. You know, like some guys like, like that, very demure. Like another guy, you know, I don't know, like, and I don't mean that as like, oh, yeah, you're. But like, sure, you, you, you know, at first, you know, like a first impression. That's the impression I have. Right. And. But I think I feel like there's a lot of men, again, that. That's incredibly general, what I just talked about. It's like. And it just doesn't make sense that, like, the fact that, like, you know, when you were like, oh, these guys are typically tall with beards, my first, you know, my thought is like, maybe as silly as it sounds, maybe that's your problem. I mean, it is fascinating. It is fascinating. When you, like, again, when you think about the impact social media and specifically dating apps has had on our perspective when it comes to dating. Right. And it truly is. I think it's crazy when you really think about it. I think we all, you know, especially our kids, but all of us have been propagandized by the Internet and by our algorithm, by what we're seeing. We're the. It's something that is designed to trigger us, you know, and then when you take that to dating again, you know, sure. The typical woman, the average, you know, stereotype is like, she probably prefers someone a little taller than her. And then everyone has their preferences, but, like, literally, I don't know what this, you know, it's like less than 2% of men or something like that, or 5%. I don't know, it's a really small number over 6 foot, you know, and that's just their height. And so on dating apps, the, you know, you have basically like 10% of the men, you know, even. No matter regardless of what their face looks like or what they do for work or their personality, they're. They're. They have this huge advantage. And then you have like 80% of the women or something. I don't, you know, my. Are going after. Yeah, these, you know, the smallest group of men who are over 6 foot and they have, you know, they have developed this ability to, I don't know, it's to. To. To not to have a kind of unlimited options. And then you have these, you know, a bunch of other people, a bunch of other men who aren't tall and, you know, who are striking out left and right because they can't even get, you know, if they, If a guy who is who is like 5, 8, called in and he was like, I can't. Sounded like you. You know, it's sad to say. I'd probably be like, yeah, man, I believe you. You know, because it's brutal out there for the short kids. You know, they really, they don't get any benefit of the doubt. You know, like all of us in our head, we're, we judge people so fast. And this is probably part of why you're experiencing this because again, I think the landscape of dating has, is so deteriorated so much is because of technology, is because we, it's so easy for us to judge without meeting people now because we feel like we meet people and who they are online, right. On tv. Right. We just, it's so easy for us to make these grand assumptions. Right. And so I'm sure you're experiencing that a little bit when it comes to dating because we're all doing it right. That being said. Yeah. I mean, so, yeah, I find it hard to believe that you, you, you, if you're like, I'm, I'm only going to pursue men 5, 10 or under just for an experiment, you know, I just want to see if I can get a date. I don't, I don't even, honestly don't care what they look like, don't care. I just want to get it. I'm going to do an experiment. I just, I mean, I just find it hard. There's this, there's no way, you know, I find it hard to believe that you couldn't land a date with anyone. You know, I think in reality, you know, like all of us, you're being selective and picky as you should with the people you want to go on dates with and you are striking out with them. And listen, I think you being with someone for 10 years, you were out of the dating game. You broke up, what, 29. You're 29. Ish. Going into your 30s.

Melanie - Caller about dating (27:25)

Yeah, 29. Yeah.

Nick Viall (27:26)

I just, you know, I'm sure there was an anxiousness internally for you to like, you know, make up for lost time, get back out there, meet some people, find your person. I don't doubt. And this is all happening at a time where dating has become more difficult for everyone. And so I think that all that whole combination of you have a bit of anxiousness and eagerness and a lack of patience to meet someone, coupled with the fact that the dating pool has become even trickier and people are more non committal and then you're searching probably more than you realize, probably mostly online and Only really looking for guys who you know every other woman online is looking for. And you are competing even for the most average men. You, you know, you are like one of 20 that they're picking from.

Melanie - Caller about dating (28:21)

Yeah, no, you're probably right. I'm like probably.

Nick Viall (28:24)

I, yeah, I think there's a little bit of that, right. All of that is like outside of your control. Other than I think what I think, you know, I think you got to probably just change the narrative in your head. I listen, I, you know, listen to your therapist. She's your therapist, whatever. I don't think you're doing yourself any good by having this narrative that I am intimidating specifically because of my job. I understand that a lot of women who like you, who are successful can feel that from time to time. But what are you going to do? Quit your job? Give up your career, you know what I'm saying, For just some fucking guy? Of course you're not going to do that. You should be proud of what you did and I'm sure you are. And of course you're not going to sacrifice all the hard work you've put into yourself and your career just to like make some average guy feel better about himself. Of course you're not going to do that, right? So like, what good does it do to have this narrative that men are intimidating by you? Listen, I think it's, I think that's kind of a self limiting belief. I think you should be proud of what you know when you, of how you've gone about your business. I think to a certain degree you can be self aware to the fact that it requires a certain type of aggression and motivation and directness and assertiveness to be an entrepreneur that you are, right? And that energy to be a successful entrepreneur. And early on in dating, especially dating men, you know, you might be, you know, without being too neurotic about it and too in your head, just be, you know, a little more mindful to just again when you're on dates to let the guy quote unquote lead to just see what he, see what he's about. Just, you know, lean into your feminine. If I don't even know what that means, but you know what I'm, you know, but like just be a little more, you know, take a step back. You're not, you know, you're not at work, you're not the boss right now. You are just, you are curious and you know, but maybe you're already doing that. But like all I'm saying is fine, if you're experiencing A little bit of like feeling like some guys are a little like taken back by you, then, then, then be a little bit more mindful about that. But that's all you really can do, right? Because again, I don't think you should be dating the guy who lives at home.

Melanie - Caller about dating (30:43)

Right.

Nick Viall (30:43)

You know, I think you should be dating the guy who is feeling, you know, successful in his career. You know, you want to find the guy where you're the missing piece. Right. And there's a lot. The good news is, is that like there are a lot of lonely people out there. You know, there's a lot of people who want to find that connection. There are a lot of men, I'm guessing in their mid to late 30s, early 40s, who have everything but their partner, right? And they rush in their career and maybe they're just tired of being the fuckboys or whatever, but I think just a little bit of patience and a little bit of like positive, you know, outlook and it just doesn't do you any good to be like, I can't get a fucking date. You know, And I think for. And you just have to objectively look at situations. If you meet a guy at a concert and know nothing about him and exchange numbers and he doesn't follow up, I mean, that's has nothing to do with you. Yeah. You know, it has everything to do with him, you know, and to sit there and pay a therapist to tell you that, you know, it's apparently you're too successful. I don't know, like, it's like, thank God you got money. You know, it's like you're, you know, I don't know what that does. I, you know, I think you just gotta own who you are. And it's like more fine tuning rather than tell yourself that every guy out there is, is intimidated by you, like, what are you supposed to do with that? So I don't know if any of this is helpful, but I do.

Melanie - Caller about dating (32:12)

This is very helpful. I appreciate it so much.

Nick Viall (32:14)

I think you just gotta change your mindset a little bit. I think you have to maybe take a beat, take a breath and then recognize that, like coming out of a 10 year relationship in your early 30s for anyone, and especially for women, because obviously a biological clock in society is a little more critical of y' all than, you know, than men when it comes to age. And you might have internalized that and felt a little bit of pressure and anxiousness and maybe you projected that onto your dates a little bit. And maybe those little moments, you know, it was Probably a combination of a bunch of little things and not. And most of the dates you went on, it wasn't any. Just one thing, you know, unless you've gotten feedback from girlfriends or friends who have been like, yo. You know, when you don't, like, when you're around guys you like, you turn into a freak and you're super aggressive and you're kind of obnoxious. You know, like, unless you're getting that feedback, you're probably not doing much wrong. You just haven't found your guy. And just stop wasting your time going on dates with guys who live with their parents. Oh, yeah, yeah, no, that one moves on. And then, you know, if, if you get flaked by a flake, that they're a flake, it's not you.

Sponsor Voice (33:21)

Yeah, yeah.

Nick Viall (33:22)

I think that's all you can try to do. And you know, I'm not saying that, you know, but yeah, if you're gonna, if you're gonna meet men over six foot online, just know. Yeah, you're one of 30 people there are. They're matched with. And that's, that's just that, that's. It's a sad reality of, I mean, it's just, it's. Tall guys have always been able to kind of abuse that privilege and power and social media has made it limitless for them.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (33:52)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (33:53)

And I'm not saying that, you know, don't, don't date tall guys, but yeah, when you're like, yeah, I've even dated a guy who was 5, 10 once. As if you were some hero. It's like, okay, just. I. Maybe just being a little bit more open to that.

Melanie - Caller about dating (34:14)

Okay.

Nick Viall (34:14)

Because there are a lot.

Melanie - Caller about dating (34:16)

I will.

Nick Viall (34:16)

There are a lot of lonely, nice guys out there who want to find their person too. And I, and I think, yeah, the world needs to figure out how to connect people.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (34:23)

Yeah.

Melanie - Caller about dating (34:23)

I could really work at shifting my perspective on that as a good, obvious point.

Nick Viall (34:30)

All right, well. All right, good luck. Thank you. All right. I'm glad you found this helpful. I wasn't sure if it was.

Melanie - Caller about dating (34:36)

No, it was very helpful. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (34:38)

So.

Nick Viall (34:38)

Well, keep us posted when you go back out there, you know, reflect, you know, ask yourself how you're doing. Again, just be patient. But we'd love a follow up and see if you've been able to incorporate any of. It's really just. It sounds like to me it's a mindset.

Melanie - Caller about dating (34:52)

Yeah, I could definitely see that.

Nick Viall (34:54)

And to whatever point, you are actually intimidating again. I don't think you should change all that much because, okay, you know, you are who you are and you just have to find the guy that's right for you. But maybe early on you can be a little mindful of leaning in to your feminine side or, you know, whatever and, and just because again, the guy you gonna end up with probably will be, you know, still want. He'll be confident enough to be with someone like you who's also like successful and confident, but he will still want to feel that sense of, you know, leading and whatever and things like that. So don't change who you are too much. Just maybe give them a window to lead early on. That's.

Melanie - Caller about dating (35:39)

I'll work on that. I'll get back to you when how things go.

Nick Viall (35:43)

Sounds good. All right, take care.

Melanie - Caller about dating (35:45)

You too.

Nick Viall (35:45)

All right, Bye.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (35:45)

Bye.

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Nick Viall (41:12)

How's it going?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (41:13)

Good.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (41:14)

My name is camille. I am 30 and my fiance has been lying about gambling addiction, among other things. And I want to be able to trust him again. But our wedding is only four months away.

Nick Viall (41:26)

How recent are these discoveries of his dishonesty?

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (41:31)

Yeah, so the gambling I found out about or it was happening from, it got bad July through Thanksgiving. He stopped it on Thanksgiving and then I found out out about three weeks later. So it's fairly recent.

Nick Viall (41:48)

And as far as you know, he just randomly started gambling this year and. And it got out of control and then stopped. And then you found out about it?

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (41:58)

Yeah, he's been sports gambling for a while, just on his phone, but it was always like $1 2$5. Like we talk about it, we watch a lot of sports together. I would do it every once in a while on my phone as well. But in July the volume and the amounts picked up pretty significantly. My understanding was he was pretty even for A while, but it was increasing a lot. And he kind of got into a rabbit hole. And I think he was gambling more and more to try to win it back. And he was fairly even, but was still gambling very large sums. And then towards the end, around Thanksgiving, he did lose quite a bit. And that was when he kind of realized had an issue and he did stop it. And then it took him a few weeks to work up the courage to tell me.

Nick Viall (42:49)

Okay, so he did tell you, like, you found out from him?

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (42:52)

I did find out from him, yeah.

Nick Viall (42:53)

Okay. When you said, amongst other things, what are the amongst other things he's been lying about?

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (42:59)

Yeah, I found out in March that he had been sexting someone. And we got into couples counseling after that. I thought we had worked through it. He had been having panic attacks and had started anxiety medicine last year. And it was all kind of wrapped together. The anxiety meds had like a pretty significant effect on his ability to have sex, his interest in sex, and in addition to the other mental health issues he was having and the effect the medicine was having. Someone had reached out to him and it had turned into something obviously inappropriate. But he was willing. He was already in things, individual therapy, he was willing to go to couples therapy. We set boundaries and I felt like we were in a better place. But obviously the trust had been broken from that. But he got on new meds. Like, all of that stuff was fixed. And so I thought it was kind of a one time thing, we could build back the trust. And then. Yeah, right before I found out about the gambling, I found out he had like, he had gotten a number from a girl at the bar when he was out with some single friends. Like, the story didn't fully add up.

Nick Viall (44:10)

So that the number he got at the bar was separate than the girl he was texting, sexting, whatever.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (44:15)

Yeah, this was like six months after that. It was a completely separate incident. Like, the incident itself, if what he's saying is true, was like fairly innocent. But when I found the text, he lied and said it was a guy. And, like, it was just more lying that I figured out.

Nick Viall (44:30)

Yeah.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (44:32)

So, yeah, it's just been like three pretty big incidents that have obviously affected my trust. And with the wedding coming up, I'm just feeling all this pressure. And in the last couple months since I found out about this, like, we are in couples counseling. He's an individual. Counseling. Like, I do want to give him time to work through it because I do believe he's a good person. I think he was dealt a pretty shitty Hand. Growing up, his. His father deals with some pretty serious mental health issues, including addiction and a lot of other things. His parents went through a really, really, really nasty divorce that he was fully put in the middle of, and they didn't handle it very well. And his dad attempted or was going to attempt to commit suicide a few years ago. That my fiance was the one that kind of figured it out and stopped it. But he didn't process any of that until the panic attack started happening. And he went to therapy and is working through it. But it's kind of created this spiral. So it's hard because there' like, these two sides to him. There's this really loving, amazing fiance. And I'm trying to have empathy for addiction and for the mistakes he's made. But it's also obviously been challenging on our relationship and on me and kind of, like, broken this, like, perfect image I have of him and our relationship and, like, what our future holds.

Nick Viall (45:52)

Yeah. Yeah. It's tough. Tough situation. I mean, you know, you don't need me saying this to you, but there's no perfect relationship or perfect person. We all have our flaws. Every relationship has their problems. The people we love the most are the ones who sadly hurt us the most because we're invested in those relationships. You know, like, none of these situations that happened that you described, while hurtful, while ugly in its own way. You know, finding out your partner lost what was. Are you comfortable sharing the sum of money that he lost?

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (46:25)

Yeah, ultimately, he lost $20,000, and a large chunk of that was on Thanksgiving, which is when he cut it off. But that's a lot of. I mean, I make significantly more than he does, and that's definitely, like, a very significant portion of his income. He didn't touch any of my. We do have joint accounts together. He didn't touch any of my money. But we're living at home right now to save money. We're both extremely frugal. We've been saving for a wedding, a house, like, all of this stuff. So, yeah, this just was, yeah, obviously, like, a huge blow, but it's more about the trust than the money. And he said that he's willing to, like, get a second job to make up for all of that. Like, I'm not. It's not about the money. Like, obviously, it was a ton of money, and it sucks.

Nick Viall (47:11)

But you're right. I mean, it's a ton of money. It's incredibly damning, and. And. But you're right. It's survivable, and it's you can move forward. Right. And. And to your point, he lost. He lost his money, right? Not yours.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (47:23)

Yeah, it was all his money.

Nick Viall (47:24)

Okay, so, like, that's a him problem. Even though I know you're engaged, and it, you know, it's like, hey, yeah, okay, well, I'm just, you know, I'm gonna give you just objective advice, and then we can get. And then we can backtrack and get into the relationship as a whole. Like, what should you do if you. Look, let's just say you got a wedding four months away, commitments have been made, contracts I'm sure have been signed, plans have been made. Mentally, if you were to think about leaving this relationship, that would be a huge mental hurdle for you. Right? So, you know, I think you should. You need to acknowledge the level of challenge, like, mental hurdle that there are a lot of people in your situation would just know, deep down, I shouldn't do this, and we'll do it anyways because you're like, pot committed not to use a gambling reference, so to speak. And I think it's important for you to recognize that. That, you know, you are. There's a level of stuckness that was. Is. Is understandable that you're probably feeling. So, yeah, let's just assume for argument's sake that no matter what I say to you and we talk about this relationship, you end up marrying this guy.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (48:25)

Fine.

Nick Viall (48:25)

I think you need to be incredibly smart and safe and pragmatic and take the love out of it. And I guess what I'm saying is you need a. You need to sign a prenup.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (48:36)

Yep, He's. He's agreed to that.

Nick Viall (48:38)

Great. Love that. And I think, listen, at the end of the day, taking the love out of it, marriage is a contract, right? And just for. For anyone who doesn't realize this, everyone who gets married signs a prenup. Every single person. If you don't do your own prenup, then the prenup that you and your partner agree to is the one that's designed by the state in which you get married in. And every state has their own marriage laws so that if you guys get divorced, they have the laws. Like Wisconsin, I'm from there. California, I live there. I'm aware, I believe, are the only two states that are, quote, unquote, 50. 50. Doesn't matter why you get divorced. You know, one person can. Half the state. It doesn't matter. You get half, they get half. It's a 50, 50 state, whatever. And that's the law. You know, other states, I Believe different laws? I don't know, but just know. And I'm glad he's already agreed to it. I'm glad. I'm.

Sponsor Voice (49:33)

I'm.

Nick Viall (49:33)

I'm. You don't need me saying this to you. I'm kind of saying this to anyone who's listening. That is the reality. Right? You know, whether you like it or not, you guys are all signing a prenup. And so to that end, honestly. And all the lawyers, I'm sure, would love me to say this, but, like, everyone, honestly, it's kind. And when you think of it in those terms, it's kind of stupid to be like, well, why would I let the state do it for me? You know, like, that's. That's dumb. And you. You are in a position now where you both have to recognize that, like, listen, you're taking marriage on its. Marriage already is a huge leap of faith, right? It's even a bigger leap of faith in 2026, the way the society has viewed marriage as more of a, you know, something to do. You know, there's till death to you part, I guess. You know, it's almost like we all have our fingers crossed. I don't mean we, you know, but, like, the mindset that I think our society has is that, you know, listen, if a marriage doesn't serve you, you can get out and listen to some degree, you know, I think that's reasonable. You know, like, why should you be stuck in hell with someone who doesn't treat you right or isn't honest with you or spends your money or things like that, you know? So I'm glad that you've had that conversation. And. And. And just when you have that conversation, do you have. How. How far down the prenup conversation have you gotten? Do you have your own lawyer?

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (50:52)

No, not yet. He's just agreed.

Nick Viall (50:53)

He's disagreed.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (50:54)

Well, sign one.

Nick Viall (50:55)

Yeah, that's a good first step. It's a big first step, but it is. You have a lot more steps to go, right? Because I think it's easy to agree to. I think a lot of people agree to it hoping that the agreement is enough for you to back down. You know, it's like, I will. I will just, you know, I'm totally cool with signing your prenup. And you're like, great. And then all of a sudden, you're like, all right, well, let's go to the lawyers. And, you know, you need to get your own lawyer, and I need to get my own lawyer, you know, because that's how it Works. And. And you need to agree on the terms of your prenup, which can, you know, it's an uncomfortable conversation for even the happiest couples to get into, you know? Right? And then that's where you can have conversations with lawyer and say, like, you know, lawyers. And be like, well, what do you ultimately. What. What do you want? What do you want to protect? They should be able to give you some advice. They should look at your situation in that context. In some ways, your lawyer is kind of like a therapist that, you know, you should be able to trust. You should be like, listen, I'm. I don't really know much about you. You're a lawyer, but I'm just going to tell you my whole goddamn story. And you, without having any emotions or feelings to my relationship, give me objective advice. Right? And you should listen to your lawyer. Right? Because it's their job in that moment to protect you. Not to protect your relationship, not to look after your partner, but to protect you. His lawyer will do the same. Right? And hopefully you guys have enough common ground where he's just like, yeah, I mean, she makes more money than me. And ultimately, I want you to have a position where if I get married to this guy and a year later I find out he's texted three more women, he's still gambling, and I want to cut my losses before it gets any crazier, before we decide to have children together or whatever it is, I can leave this marriage relatively easily. I would keep your finances separate. I would be married just on the emotional side, not the financial side. You almost have to assume you're gonna get divorced. Not if you get married to this guy. I don't want you to have that mindset. But when you're doing the prenup, so to speak, you almost have to allow your lawyer to have that mindset, and you have to trust your lawyer. And in a way, your fiance should be. Should understand the position you're coming from and empathize with the position he's put you in and why you have the fear and reluctance and lack of trust in him that you do. Objectively speaking, there is no way this man is going to be able to get you to fully trust him in a way that really deep down inside you would be comfortable betting on him, so to speak. Right? There's just no way. There's just no way, given all the things he's done, that you objectively should. Should be able to trust him. Right now. You're going to want to trust him. Maybe you're built, you know, in the next four months, you guys could be doing a lot of therapy. He could be doing individual work where you guys can make a lot of meaningful steps in the right direction to build that trust back. But by the time, you know. But that's not going to happen in four months. Right. So if you want to move forward with this marriage with a hope and a prayer and a lot of trust, which, listen, we've many people have done that, you know, wouldn't fault you for doing that. I expect you to almost do that with the position that you're in. But you should really do everything you can to protect yourself just in case it goes sideways. I mean, that's what I would do, if nothing else. And if all we had was this time right now, and we'll keep talking and we met on the street, that would be my advice to you so that you can just focus on the relationship once you get married. Knowing that I don't want you to live in fear once you're married and feeling like you have no out. And I don't want you to feel like it's going to cost you even more than the emotional pain that will inevitably come from you having the strength to leave this relationship. Right. And I want the rest of that kind of ugliness, the money, the contracts, all that stuff to be taken care of so that you, if it gets to that point, you're like, I want out. It's pretty straightforward. You already have an agreed situation and there won't be a lot of arguing in lawyers after the fact because then it's like, then all bets are off. That makes sense.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (55:12)

Yeah, I think so. We already have combined a lot of our finances, and we're definitely planning on it. And he does do a lot more around the house, and we do want kids. And he was planning to do. Be able to be more flexible with his work with kids, too. So it does make it more complicated. But I do. I was. And I wasn't planning to sign a prenup before all of this, but. Yeah, I definitely think that now's the time to be selfish and protect myself.

Nick Viall (55:39)

Such that I. Yeah.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (55:40)

You feel like I can take a leap of faith.

Nick Viall (55:42)

You have to. You have to. And yeah, what I mean, you have, I'm guessing, joint accounts or something. You have one joint account, and I don't know how you guys decide to fund that account. Yeah, you'll have to figure that out. And that's where a lawyer can come in and help you. And I'm not the person to give you that advice. A lawyer can. But you're not married yet. And whatever joint accounts you have are probably easily reversible right now because you're not married. And the challenge will be the conversation you have to have with him, because that conversation, for him, all it's going to sound like to him is you don't trust me. And I think he owes you that level of understanding to be like, yeah, no, but I get why you don't. Right. And I think that level of. I don't call it humility or self awareness on his part will probably go a long way to making you feel like you can trust him. Is this the acknowledgment that you shouldn't? So, yeah, I mean, and this could be something you guys talk about in couples therapy, you know, the prenup itself, because that will be a challenging conversation. Right? And it would be a great place to have that conversation about why you feel this way, about what you're going to need from him, about why you feel like you're in this position, that despite you doing what you need to do now to protect yourself, you still really want to work on the relationship and you really want this marriage to work. And you're just doing everything right now because you can't predict the future. You know, no relationship, you know, it's like people can't promise each other. He can't promise you, and you can't promise him that he's not going to hurt you in the future. You guys don't know what the future holds. You don't know what situation is going to come up. You don't know what might trigger him in the future about his childhood or his past that might make him spiral. You know, the med that he's on. You don't know what impact or side effects he might experience. You don't know. Right. And so given that all these situations have all you know right now is what. It's already happened. Right? And what's happened is he's giving you plenty of reasons to doubt his ability to have the discipline, to hold himself accountable, to have the character, despite him being triggered, despite him feeling a certain way to say, no, I'm in a relationship. No, I don't want your number. No, no. Like, I don't want, you know, to go out with his boys and make it very clear that he has a partner, you know, and it's not hard. You know, it's like you don't even have to be weird about it. I remember this long time ago this is 20 years ago, 15 years ago, I had a girlfriend, went to Vegas with a group of guys for my buddy's bachelor party. We were in the pool, a bunch of guys, and then, you know, when a group of guys are hanging out, you see a group of girls who are there for whatever, a trip or whatever, maybe a bachelorette party. We met these group of women, right? Started talking. Everyone's friendly. I'm kind of in the pool with my group of guy friends. And I remember, like, some girl was like, oh, I work for this place. And I was like, oh, so does my girlfriend. You know, it was easy. I found a way to easily just throw it out there to the world. In case anyone was wondering, I'm not available, I'm taken. You know, without it being awkward to, you know, it's like, you know that when people don't bring it up and all of a sudden you're like, you know, having this conversation, and you're like, whoa, but I have a girlfriend. You're like, huh? You haven't been acting like you have a girlfriend for the past two hours. You know, there's ways people can do that. He's not doing that, right? When he's going out with his boys, I don't know what he's doing, but he's not making it clear that he's unavailable.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (59:12)

Well, the story there, which once again, he said I could ask his friend, I just didn't, was that the single friend that was trying to get this girl's friend's number, like, they couldn't remember their names, so they were like, oh, can we get your numbers? And he said that, like, this girl knew about me. And I did see the text with her, and it wasn't. It was her texting about her ex boyfriend, which he said was all they talked about the whole night.

Nick Viall (59:36)

Doesn't matter.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (59:37)

No, but he still lied. And why would you respond to the text like. And that was a boundary that we talked about because he has a lot of girlfriends, and we had to set really strict boundaries when we went through couples therapy before. So it wasn't even about getting the number.

Nick Viall (59:48)

He currently has a lot of girlfriends.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (59:50)

No. Well, he has a lot of women at work that he works with. And that was something that we talked about in couples therapy after, about cutting those relationships off and keeping them platonic at work. Because it was something that made me uncomfortable. And I'm friends with a lot of them too. But it was really hard for me that he texted a lot of them often. And he is a Very emotionally available guy. All of them went to him with their relationship, venting and stuff like that. And I like. It's great that he's a really nice guy and he takes care of them and he would, like.

Nick Viall (60:26)

Yeah. I mean, if he's single, sure.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (60:28)

They got home okay. But, yeah, I definitely. Especially after all this.

Nick Viall (60:32)

How old is your.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (60:33)

He did under. He's 29.

Nick Viall (60:35)

How old are you again?

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (60:36)

30.

Nick Viall (60:36)

Okay, so you're relatively the same age, but, yeah, he's, I guess, relatively young for. For a guy.

Sponsor Voice (60:41)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (60:41)

I mean, listen, I. That's all, you know, it is. It's just all bullshit. When you're in a relationship, you be in a relationship, you act like you're in a relationship. You protect the relationship. You. You don't, you know, if you're a guy. I had a ton of women friends when I was single, and I was single for a long fucking time, you know, before I met my wife Natalie. And I was so used to being single, you know, And I think I've talked about this before in recent episodes, but, like, when Nan and I first, we're not just hanging out. We're not just casually dating. We're not just messing around. We're not just hookup buddies. But we're like, okay, we're gonna do this. I'm gon. I'm gonna. You're my girlfriend. I'm your boyfriend. That was so new to me. I mean, that was the first person in eight years or, I don't know, something like that, that I was like, I have a girlfriend. You know? And in the first couple weeks of Nally and I being boyfriend and girlfriend, I had a couple women friends come over to my house. I told Natalie about it, and her response was kind of like, okay. And I kind of had this, like, wait, you know, kind of like, what am I doing? Like this. It was like, I can't do this anymore. It was like, I knew I had a girlfriend. I wasn't going to do anything. But even just having them over in that environment was inappropriate, you know, And I had to recognize that real quickly that, like, you know, if I want to be in this relationship, I can't. I'm not single anymore. You know, I have expectations. My girlfriend has expectations of me, and I have expectations of her. And if we're actually going to say, let's be boyfriend and girlfriend and let's do this and let's give this relationship a real shot, giving it a real shot implies making sacrifices. That's what being in a relationship's all about. It's saying yes to that one person, that person who I can build an emotional connection with. We can build something really meaningful that, like, you know, you can't have with platonic relationships in casual relationships. I guess what I'm trying to say is, like, when we're single, we have friends of the opposite sex. I truly believe that, like, we almost, like, I could have, like, say, like, eight women friends. You know, I'm just kind of making up some random number. And, you know, maybe I had one friend. Like, it's like we would go to dinner now and then and catch up and, you know, talk. She would talk about what guys she's dating, and I would maybe talk about what women I'm dating. And maybe there's another friend who, like, when I was really upset, she was. What I'd really opened up to. My point is, like, all these friendships played the role of one person, you know, that now that I have a girlfriend, it was gonna be her responsibility to meet all those needs that I might have in a relationship. And again, she has all these needs that I to meet. And that's what being in a relationship is, that I'm committed to this relationship. I'm invested in this relationship. And this relationship is worth making these sacrifices. It is worth committing to this person and who I want to be honest to. And it's not just about me anymore. When I'm in a situation, whatever that situation is, I'm not just considering how I feel. I'm considering how my actions are going to affect this other person. And he is not very good at that second part right now. Right. He is very much still focusing on his needs. And when he's in a situation, you're not top of mind. He can say that you are, but you're not. But his actions are proving otherwise. Right. And you're four months away from saying, I do. And that's just the reality, and he needs to recognize that. And. And when you're in couples therapy, I hope those are the conversations you're having is why does he have such a hard time putting you first or at least putting you at the same level? He puts himself in these situations where there's the fork in the road and he has to choose. He has to make a choice. And when he's making choices, there's too many situations where he's thinking about his needs and not the both of yours.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (64:35)

Yeah, no, I think that that's true. And that is something that we talked through, especially the boundaries around women. I think I was Trying to be the cool girlfriend for way too long and, like, being fine. That he texted these girls and that he was their emotional support, and, like, that's definitely a boundary that we've set now that he pushed back on a little bit, but ultimately understood where I was coming from.

Nick Viall (64:58)

Yeah, he needs to be more than understanding, I guess.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (65:02)

Yeah. And, I mean, except for this one incident, but, yeah, it's just me.

Nick Viall (65:05)

That's a big incident. Yeah. I don't want, you know, stop watering down his. His mistakes, you know?

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (65:11)

No, he. Bro.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (65:12)

I.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (65:12)

Before, I could have said, okay, he has these relationships with girls, but I've never expressed that it was uncomfortable. Like, we talked in couples therapy about incidents in his relationship with girls in the past, that we set very clear boundaries about not texting girls. And this was very clearly, no matter what the story is of how it happened and what happened after, like, it's very clearly a break of the clear boundaries that I set. And if he thought about any part of the decisions he made as part of getting this girl's number and responding to her texts after, like, he clearly broke all of those boundaries and did something stupid.

Nick Viall (65:45)

I'm curious when he spent. When he lost all that money over Thanksgiving. How. How did he tell you?

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (65:50)

Um, so we had just gotten back from Vegas, and he was definitely very anxious when we were in Vegas. And he. Did. He bet, like, a normal amount, like we normally do, which is not that much. Maybe like 200 over the whole weekend. So it wasn't a ton, but he was super anxious when we were there. And then the day after we got back, he. He finds it easier to, like, tell me hard things over text, which is something we're working on in therapy as well. But when I was working, he, like, texted me that he was going to completely cut off gambling, and being in Vegas just made him realize that it had gone too far. But he said that he hadn't lost anything, and he had therapy the next day, and I think he. He said he was going to go to therapy the next day and work through how to, like, tell me how bad it really was. But ultimately, I was kind of pushing because he was, like, really, really upset about it.

Nick Viall (66:44)

So you sensed that something was up, and you were. You. You dug deeper and finally was like, all right, yeah, the truth is, I. I lost all this money.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (66:52)

Yeah. And then even so. And I don't think he realized how bad it was even then, because then for, like, taxes and other reasons, he, like, really had to go through everything. And I think that's when he realized, like, how much he knew how much he had lost because that's how much he had put into the apps. But I don't think he realized, like, how much he was betting and how much money he was kind of, like, cycling through, because he won a lot. He. He won a ton also, but then obviously, ultimately was down.

Nick Viall (67:17)

Yeah. Yeah. Relationships are hard, and people are certainly imperfect, and you're just gonna have to trust your gut, I guess. I hate saying that, but, yeah, the.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (67:27)

Hard part is a lot of it has been on his phone, so it's obviously tough because, like, I don't want to be the person that's checking his phone or who, like, plays big bro because we talked about, like, why give me access to this and that and that? And, like, our therapists were kind of like, well, you don't want. It shouldn't be your responsibility to constantly be checking his bank account, to check this, to check that, to make sure he's not texting other people and all that. But the same time, like, it is hard because we are both always on our phones, and a lot of it is tied to drinking, and we do have very active social lives. Both of our families are very big drinkers, and so that's just been a touchy subject as well.

Nick Viall (68:04)

He's a slightly big drinker who's also taking anti. Like, anti. Anxiety medication. Yeah, I'm guessing those two don't mix very well.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (68:14)

I mean, all of this did start around the time that he started the meds, and, like, we talked about completely cutting alcohol out, but I think that was really challenging as well, because it definitely made us. Like, it was right before the holidays and, like, the. Are you pregnant? Why aren't you drinking? I'm disappointed. You're not drinking. You're being a party pooper. Like, all of this that, I think, made him feel like more of a freak because he was just the center of attention of every single event that we went to because we're such big drinkers. Like, there never would have been a time that we would just turn down drinking completely, but we've tried just, like, cutting significantly back as well, and that's been challenging because my definition of cutting significantly back is definitely different than his definition of cutting significantly back, and he has cut significantly back, but it's still hard when you go from being, like, pretty heavy drinkers.

Nick Viall (69:03)

What else is he doing other than medicating himself to help with his anxiety?

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (69:07)

He's been much more forthcoming with me about his feelings. I think both of us definitely Weren't as forthcoming as we have been. I mean, he is in individual therapy, although over the, like, it's been challenging because his therapist was out over Thanksgiving and Christmas when a lot of this was happening and was sick one time. So I think he's only had three individual therapy sessions since all of this has happened.

Nick Viall (69:30)

Did he take care of himself? Is he an active person? Does he work out?

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (69:33)

Yeah, super active. He goes to the gym every single day.

Nick Viall (69:36)

He does. Okay. Not that that's the end all be all, but like, you know, exercise is really good for, for that type of stuff.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (69:45)

But yeah, and he's the chef. He cooks healthy for both of us. Like, he definitely does take care of himself.

Nick Viall (69:51)

I mean, drinking is a big, is a. I, you know, I'm pretty sure is a big trigger when it comes to anxiety and things like that. And you're describing someone who, like you said, his dad suffers from addiction. He has signs of an addictive personality. And has he addressed that specifically?

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (70:07)

Yeah, I mean, he had. He admitted that he was addicted to gambling and then in like some fights and obviously, like, things have been heated and emotional. Like, I did call him an addict and he said that that really hurt him. And I like, sure, we kind of talked through that too. But I do think that he has admitted that he is addicted to gambling. I think the thing that scares me is it's fairly easy to delete the two apps that he was on and not download those back. But like, is it. He also cheated. Right? Like, it's not. Like it's only been one thing that we can solve that one thing. It's like clearly just general bad decision making.

Nick Viall (70:43)

Yeah. I mean, again, I'm not, I mean, certainly no expert when it comes to addiction and things like that, but, but I'm pretty sure that again, people have a way of acting out, so to speak. Right. So his drinking, on some levels, I'm sure a coping mechanism, the addiction part doesn't go away. Right. So to speak. So how is he dealing with that? Right. So maybe I don't know. A, a, a, you know, there are obviously things out there for addicts of any kind. And I, you know, whether it's you're addicted to alcohol or drugs or sex or, or gambling, addiction is addiction. Right. You know, I'm pretty sure when you go to A.A. it's not like, oh, hey, the alcoholics go over there, the gambling people over there. I'm sure there's very specific types of groups for different types of addiction. But it sounds like he does have Some kind of problem there. And so if he's not, as they always say, like, admitting it, definitely, big first step. Right. But admitting it is. Yeah. Like they say, it's just a step. You know, there's a lot of more. There's many more steps. Right?

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (71:50)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (71:51)

If he doesn't address it, therapy is good that he's working through his problems, but chances are, if he doesn't address it, he will find destructive and toxic ways of acting out, so to speak. Right. And not to make excuses for this guy, but the. It's like maybe these interactions with these women are just like, it's scratching an itch that he sometimes is scratching through gambling or drinking or whatever. But until he really addresses the problem, the root problem. Yeah, this. This acting out, it will be a very. It will be a challenge for him, probably.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (72:29)

Yeah. I mean, that's what I'm terrified of with the wedding coming up, of just like, how is this gonna manifest? And he didn't tell his therapist about the gambling, even though it was actively happening while he was in individual therapy. And he didn't tell his other therapist about the cheating, even though he was actively cheating for multiple months. So, like, that's where it's challenging of, like, it is great that he's willing to go to therapy. And at first he wasn't even willing to go to therapy or when just the panic attacks were happening. Like, he didn't want to go to therapy and he didn't want to take medicine. And ultimately he came around to both of those things and is glad that he started both of those things because it has helped with the panic attacks and the mental health issues. But, yeah, it is concerning learning that, like, therapy or just cutting out drinking completely aren't necessarily, like, the actual solving everything. And so it just scares me of what this is going to turn into. And I need to have patients. Like, he's only had three individual therapy sessions. We are still living with family, so him getting a second job, him going to AA or like, taking things more seriously is made more challenging by that. But, yeah, it's just hard to be patient while he works through things when we do have, like, this deadline coming up. But I feel like I need to be patient, but it's just been really, really challenging.

Nick Viall (73:44)

Yeah, it's. Listen, it's a tough situation you're in. I don't have a good answer for you. You will just have. You will have to make that decision on your own. As I see it now with this wedding four months away, obviously you can leave the relationship. Right. That's option one. You clearly don't want to do that. You know, totally get why. Right. And so option one, leave them. Option two, postpone the wedding. I'm guessing that's not ideal because that you would probably lose some money there. Objectively speaking, whatever money you would lose by delaying the wedding might be more than worth it for a lot of reasons.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (74:21)

Yeah. It's not about the money. It's more that we'd have to tell every single one of our guests an excuse. And that just feels like post hitting the nuclear button of having to tell everyone in our lives everything that's happening.

Nick Viall (74:34)

Maybe, but if you get divorced, you're gonna have to do that too.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (74:37)

Yeah, that's true.

Nick Viall (74:38)

We're talking about the rest of your lives, potentially. I mean, you can always get divorced, but, like, you know, this relationship is at a point where no matter how it ends, if it were to end, it's gonna be devastating for you on some level, and you're gonna have to work through it, and you will, and you'll be okay. And plenty of people have survived and worked through relationships ending and marriages ending and things like that. You will be okay. Right. But I think when it comes to the situation you're in, you just have to really be pragmatic and honest with how things are gonna play out long term. Right. Totally get that. Delaying a wedding is not ideal, but objectively, it's probably the most reasonable option in terms of. Okay. If the worst thing I have to do do is tell all our guests that this wedding isn't happening right now. And they can gossip and they can question. You can decide who is. Is privy to the actual truth and. And who of your guests. You're just like, hey, you know, it's just not happening right now. You know, talk behind your back, whatever. You guys deal with it. It's not the end of the world. People gossip all the time. And then you guys can. You know, if it's. If this is a relationship that's really worth fighting for and investing in, the only people who really need to care are the two of you. Right. And if. If you're both thinking about each other and for each other, then it makes a lot of sense to say, now's not the time to put this added pressure of a marriage on this relationship that's already fragile. You have a lot of work to do. We have a lot of work to do. This is a lot of pressure. A marriage is not going to help this situation right now. I mean, that probably is the smartest decision. But I totally get if you don't want to do that. All right, option three, move forward with the wedding, get the prenup, do all the unsexy things to protect yourself, knowing that I'm going to do this. I'm going to get married to this guy. I love him. He's a great guy with a lot of problems, but he's my guy, and I want to fight for this relationship. And then you're just going to have to mentally accept the fact that I'm going to say it. Yes. And there's a 50, 50 chance that someday I'm going to say, yeah, I was married once. I'm divorced. I'm, you know, we. When I first got engaged a long time ago and it didn't work out, that, that, that, that stigma I felt of a failed engagement. Right. That, you know, we. If, if. If you're divorced, you feel like society puts a stigma on you. If you have a failed relationship, if you get cheated on, all these, like, social stigmas that we attach and judge ourselves and feeling like the world's talking about us and all these things, you know, it's more bullshit than reality, but it still affects us. Right. And it's a mental hurdle we have to get through. If you say, I do, you need to mentally tell yourself and accept the risk you're taking. I've said some version of this before in different shows. I'm a big believer in taking risk. I'm sitting here talking with you today because I've taken some risks, and my life, you know, I kind of had to tell myself, if I'm going to do this, I can't play the victim when it doesn't work out. I'm choosing to do this. I'm accepting the risks. You know, I am owning my choices to say yes to something that like, you know, has some red flags, but I'm going to do it anyways. And that, you know, and that I think in that mindset, I honestly think it's important for us to all. We have to take some risks in life. We have to bet on ourselves, and we have to be willing for things to not work out. And if it doesn't work out, we have to pick ourselves up, move forward. And the easiest way to do that is to not sit in the kind of this victim mindset of, like, how could this happen to me? I can't believe this happened to me. It's not fair. He wronged me here. He did this and he did that, and that's fucked Up. And I don't deserve that. All of which can be true, but it's not going to do you any good in that moment to sit in that and feel sorry for yourself. And I guess since you are in this position, knowing that. That there's a risk, it's just kind of accepting the risk you take so that if it doesn't work out, you don't go, why did I do that? That was so dumb of me. I should have been foolish. I should have listened to people. No, you made a choice. You knew what the risks were. You didn't listen to. You know, maybe it was me, or maybe you have a friend who's like, don't do it. Don't sit. Don't marry the guy. And, you know, you didn't listen. So what? Don't beat yourself up two years from now by telling yourself you should have done this and you should have done that. You just have to own your choices and move the forward. You know what I'm saying? So if you do say yes to this guy, I just want you to just own your choice and let the, you know, and fight and do what you can for the relationship and do your part, you know, and if it doesn't work out, you know, again, easier said than done. And all these emotions I'm telling you to try not to feel, you will feel. It will just be those. You'll go to therapy and you'll remind yourself, you know what?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (79:34)

What?

Nick Viall (79:34)

I'm sad. It sucks. I don't deserve this. But, hey, I didn't make a choice. It is what it is. I'm gonna move forward, and I'm not gonna just sit there and feel sorry for myself for six months or whatever it is. I'm just. It fucking sucks. But whatever, you know, and if you do say yes, I think it's important for you to have to have a little bit of that mindset. So it sounds like on a positive side, you feel like he, at a minimum, wants to fight for you and he can acknowledge his faults. He is, you know, he is going to therapy. Certainly not perfect. He could be more honest with this therapist. He is doing. He's doing. He's not. You know, I'm sure you've listened to this show and talked to a lot of people, especially women, where it's just like, yeah, he won't go to therapy. He won't do this. It's just like, well, I mean, he's giving you no options. Like, your partner is working with you a little bit. He's. He's you know and know he's doing enough to give you enough hope, which can be a little bit dangerous, but at least there's something to work with, right?

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (80:32)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (80:32)

So to me, those are your kind of three choices. Is this helpful?

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (80:36)

Yeah, no, it's helpful. It's my sister, who's the only one that I've told about this, kind of said the same thing about, like, your life's not over if you do choose to end it now, or your life's not over if you delay it. And if delaying it is going to give you the best chance at moving forward, like, you need to consider kind of all of your options. And she was the one who suggested the prenup too, which I hadn't really thought about. So I do. Yeah. Luckily, he has agreed to the prenup. Like everything that I've asked of him, he's willing to do. And I know that he wants to fight for it. He just has this tendency for kind of self sabotage and making bad decisions, which is what he needs to work through. But it's something that's very challenging and I'm not gonna know if he has worked through it until kind of like temptation, he comes across his plate again. So that's just where it's challenging to be patient and trust the process to work through it. But no, I do think I need to make sure that I'm thinking about myself in all of this too. And I think that that attitude going into a marriage where I need to make sure that I'm considering the risks and continuing to fight for it and that'll be okay on the other side, no matter what happens.

Nick Viall (81:46)

Yeah. I mean, listen, I'm glad you have empathy for him. I'm glad that you have patience for him. But just make sure that the. The I self sabotage is, I feel, has almost become a trope or an excuse for people. Okay, fine. You self sabotage, do something about it. You know, he can do something about it and he has to want to do something about it. And he can heal his past traumas if he really wants to, but he has to really want to do it for himself. Yeah, I'm glad he's motivated by the relationship and I'm glad he's motivated that he doesn't want to hurt you. But at the end of the day, not hurting you won't be enough. He has to want to do it for himself. He has to want to not be that person. And you have to find out what that line is about, like not allowing it to be an Excuse, you know, And I guess between now and four months, you. I think you have to have some very direct and tough conversations with him about, like, where you stand and that while you do want to fight for it and you do want to believe in him, that he hasn't really given you much to work with. And if you do decide to move forward with this wedding, he has to understand he hasn't earned your trust. And he has to be okay with the fact that, you know, this person doesn't trust me, and he doesn't get to act like a victim, to be like, well, it's like, how can you not trust me? You know, like, you know, it's just like, it's not fair. And don't you understand what I've gone through and, you know, my family and this and that and all might be true, but, like, that's. It's not fair for him to dump that all on you. You know, he has to want to do it for himself, and you have to be able to have these tough conversations that are going to sound very unromantic and make him feel like you don't trust him, and he has to be at least understanding as to why you don't and be willing to bet on himself. It's like, it's a weird thing because that. And that's why maybe delaying the wedding is probably taking all feelings aside the smartest thing, because marrying him under the conditions that you are is just a huge leap of faith. You know, you're basically going on Love is Blind and getting married after six weeks and hoping for the best, and it can work out. You never know. But if it doesn't, you're gonna. You know, for the people who go on Love is Blind and get married, you know, if it doesn't work out and they get divorced, they. It's pretty easy for them to go, well, you know, hey, it went on a show and probably wasn't the smartest thing to do that. But, hey, I took a risk, whatever, it didn't work out, and they. They blame it on the show and rightfully so. And they kind of, you know, and in a way, you almost have to have that mindset that, like, you took a huge leap of faith, but you did it in yolo, whatever, and I'm going to move forward. And so you just have to decide which of those three choices is best for you. But just protect yourself and do everything you can so that if you do say I do, you know that the only thing you have to worry about is your Connection. At least have this conversation now when, you know, he wants to fight for the relationship. And if during that prenup process, things get uglier and he fights back and he is resistant and he plays the victim, I think you really need to pay attention to that and maybe that will be a sign that maybe this marriage shouldn't happen. Does that make sense?

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (84:51)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (84:52)

I think he really needs to accept the role he's played into why you would be having these conversations and saying these kind of things that will be hard for him to hear and accept four months leading up to your wedding.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (85:05)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (85:06)

So I'm glad he says the right things. He needs to start doing the right things and showing you. And you need to, I think, hold them a little bit more accountable than you are and be a little less forgiving and a little less understanding of his shortcomings.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (85:19)

Yeah, no, I think that that's probably true. All right, well, thank you. This was. Yeah, this was helpful.

Nick Viall (85:26)

Okay, well, good luck. I'm sorry you're in this position. It's definitely not an easy choice that you have to make. No matter what, you're gonna be okay. I want you to know that. And just, you know, you have a lot of great things going for yourself. You're an independent woman. You're taking care of yourself. You know you're gonna be okay. You have a lot of things going for you. And just remember that when you're going through this process and you know, somehow, some way things will work out, maybe just not the way you expect or want them to.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (85:58)

You.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (85:59)

Yeah. All right, well, thank you. I appreciate it.

Nick Viall (86:01)

Well, keep us posted on. On what you decide.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (86:05)

Will do. All right, thank you.

Nick Viall (86:06)

Take care.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (86:07)

Thanks.

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Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (89:17)

My name is Stephanie, I am 32 and my husband's best friend hit on me, but I'm in the wrong.

Nick Viall (89:23)

Okay, why are you in the wrong?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (89:26)

Allegedly, I'm in the wrong. That's kind of why I wanted to call into you because anyone I've talked to about the situation has either known me or others involved. So I feel like it's a little bit biased.

Nick Viall (89:37)

Tell me the story.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (89:38)

Okay, so just a little backstory. My husband has a friend group that has been friends for over 20 years. They're all a little bit older than me, they're in their later 30s, so they've been friends for 20 something years. And now they are all married and have kids. So we now have a group of girls, each associated with each friend. One of his friends, which is one of his best friends. This actually goes back quite a bit, but it boiled up this past summer. So his best friend, this was about two and a half years ago. I like most millennials, I love boomerang selfies. I'm big on taking boomerang selfies. So my thing I like to do is like, I'll take a boomerang selfie of like cheersing my glass of wine. Also a wine lover. So I did that. I did like a boomerang selfie. I was in my pajamas, but like totally innocent. It was mainly like neck up. And I posted it on my story and then I received a reply to that story from his best friend and he said, damn girl, you look good. So I was thrown off by that a little bit.

Nick Viall (90:42)

His best friend said that?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (90:44)

Yes.

Nick Viall (90:45)

Okay.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (90:46)

And mind you, it's a very large friend group. So there are some of the boys in the friend group that I am closer to than others, but him and I just don't have that kind of relationship together. So it was a little weird.

Nick Viall (90:57)

What did you do immediately after that?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (90:59)

I showed my husband. I was sitting right next to him. Okay. And also this was nine or ten o' clock at night. So I feel like that makes it a little more weird. In my mind, I was like, maybe he's drinking, because that's a weird thing.

Nick Viall (91:09)

Either way, it's weird. But, yes, the best thing you did in that moment was immediately show your husband. Be like, oh, my God. What the. Yeah, okay.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (91:17)

Yes. So I show it to him, and he goes, well, that's weird. And he sits on it for, like, a couple seconds, and he's like, actually, that's really weird. And I don't think I like that. And I didn't like it either. It made me feel weird, which is why I showed it to him. So then after that, I screenshot it, and I sent it to two of the girls in the group that I was close with, and I was just like, hey, I got this message response, and I feel like it's weird. Am I overthinking it?

Sponsor Voice (91:42)

It.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (91:43)

Trying to get other people's opinions and they agree. They're like, no, 100%. That's a weird thing.

Nick Viall (91:47)

How much conversation do you and your husband have about his feelings about this and your feelings about this before you screenshot it and reached and included two other people in the group?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (91:58)

Not. It was within, like, the first 10 minutes we discussed it.

Nick Viall (92:02)

So I, you know, without knowing anything else.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (92:05)

Yes.

Nick Viall (92:06)

You know, the first thing you did. Amazing. That's what I would have done. Right. Thing to do. Ten minutes later, I feel like that was a huge mistake, because then now it just becomes gossip. And now you are basically allowing other people to control the narrative. And you and your husband, at that point, haven't even had a chance to fully digest what just happened. The potential betrayal of his friend, how you're both feeling. This is a weird thing that happens. And it's weird. Right. Your husband, no doubt, probably had a million questions. Why did my friend do this? This is probably a guy he's been friends with for a long time, never thought he would do this. This. Not that he. Not that, you know, you could have done, you know, but it's his human nature to go, well, did she, you know, like, did you do something, you know, does, you know, like, it's just a normal. A million questions just normally come up. Right. And you guys didn't really have a chance.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (92:56)

Yes.

Nick Viall (92:56)

As a married couple. To talk that through and just get on the same page to know that I don't know why this happened. Yeah, we're good. We both think it's up. And what are we gonna do to address this discomfort that just happened in our friend group?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (93:14)

Yes.

Nick Viall (93:15)

And you were like, yo, girls.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (93:18)

I was. I. I am such a chronic oversharer.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (93:22)

Yeah.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (93:23)

So, yes, I did. And I. I seek validation, and that's kind of why I did it.

Nick Viall (93:27)

Sure. But, you know, it's really important. You know, I don't. Probably don't need me saying this, but you're married, you know, and it really needs to come from your partner, and it really needs to be you two. And it's. You know, I do think all married couples, to some degree, need to have a. It's us versus the world in a way.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (93:44)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (93:44)

You know, we have each other's back, and even if our closest friends fail us, like his friend failed him, we have each other's back, and we really need to protect that, you know? And I think it's really important to have that mindset in situations like this, because things obviously can spiral, and it sounds like they did spiral. So anyways, you told the girls.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (94:05)

Yes.

Nick Viall (94:05)

What happened after that?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (94:07)

So I tell the girls again, they agree, and it goes. We dead the issue. My husband and I talk. Talk about it, and we decide. You know, it's weird, but, like, he's never done anything like this, so. And we just were not comfortable with confrontation in that way. So we decided we're just gonna brush it off and we are gonna try to move on from it. And as far as I know, the girls, they didn't say anything at all, so.

Nick Viall (94:31)

And you're. You. You and your husband didn't discuss the possibility of him addressing his friend?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (94:36)

Not really.

Nick Viall (94:38)

Why?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (94:38)

Because, again, I'm not good with confrontation. That's something I've worked on. And he's even worse, and I. He doesn't like to. That's something we struggle actually with. Our own marriage is like confronting each other. Right. So he doesn't like to confront me. He doesn't especially like to confront anybody else. And I was kind of on board with like, okay, well, if you don't want to talk about it, like, then I won't talk about it to him. Like, you know what I mean? Not bringing it up.

Nick Viall (95:02)

I do. I can tell you right now if we just hung up the phone.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (95:05)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (95:06)

If I said, all right, I gotta go. I don't have any more time for you, but I want you to do this one thing. I think it's amazing that you can recognize this shortcoming you have and that your husband has and that you have together. And in this moment, you guys enabled each other. Other to allow your weaknesses to take over. You got. Neither of you helped each other Out. Neither of you held each other accountable. You're both bad at it, right?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (95:30)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (95:30)

But you do have each other. And in those moments where you have each other, that's where like that marriage part comes in where you say, hey, we gotta, we gotta suck it the up and we gotta do this. And I know it's hard, babe, if you want to say, hey, that was up. I don't even. I don't even know. Yeah, I don't need to know why you did. You did it. And I shouldn't need to explain to my friend how fucked up that is. And if we just decide as a married couple going forward to say, well, he's not our friend anymore, that's a choice. Yeah, I don't want to confront him. I don't need to confront him. I don't. There's no explanation he's going to give me. That makes me go, you know what? No, no harm, no foul. That was a choice. But you guys made a choice of being like, yeah, it's weird. I don't really want to confront him. So let's just pretend it didn't happen. Happen.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (96:13)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (96:14)

But meanwhile, you both know it happened.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (96:16)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (96:16)

You're both sitting with it, and the next time he's going to see his friend, it's going to trigger questions and feelings.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (96:22)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (96:22)

Right. From that point forward, you guys run the risk of not being connected and on the same page.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (96:28)

Yeah, 100%.

Nick Viall (96:30)

Okay. So anyways, you didn't address it. Okay.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (96:33)

Yes. So time passes and over the past like two years, there's been other comments here and there. Nothing to that gravity, nothing to where we were.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (96:41)

Like.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (96:41)

Like we were kind of like. Again, we were like, that's weird.

Nick Viall (96:44)

This happened two years ago.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (96:45)

This happened two years ago.

Nick Viall (96:47)

Okay.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (96:47)

But it just came to ahead this past summer. Yeah. So time passes things, random comments pop up here and there. But this past summer, in the end of July, we did like a big birthday party, beer Olympics with all of our friends for my birthday. And one of the other boys birthdays, and I'm with the friends and one of our, one of my girlfriends, and he makes this comment and it just made me feel uncomfortable.

Nick Viall (97:13)

He made another comment.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (97:15)

Yes, it was just weird. So he was. He said, I really love that lipstick color on you. And it just threw me because it was just a. It felt like a weird thing to say. I don't. It just threw me. So I, I told him about it. I was just. Okay.

Nick Viall (97:29)

Told your husband?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (97:30)

Yes, I told my husband about it. I was just like, he Made this comment about my lipstick. Like, it was like, it just made me feel weird the way, like, it came out. And he was like, okay, again, like, weird, whatever. And I thought after I just told him, we're good, whatever. So then my sister comes up to me during the party and she says, oh, your husband came up asking me about some lipstick comment. And that was a red flag for me because my husband doesn't like to talk to people about things. So in my head, I'm like, oh, no, he must be more upset than I thought about this comment.

Nick Viall (98:00)

His friend commented about your lipstick. You told your husband. Then what happened happened.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (98:04)

And then after I told my husband, he goes up to my sister and tells my sister about it.

Nick Viall (98:10)

Your husband?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (98:11)

Yes, my husband tells my sister about it.

Nick Viall (98:13)

What did he say?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (98:13)

He. Well, he. He was my sister and the rest of our team because we had teams with colors. And the two other people that were in our team actually aren't in our friend group. They're separate friends from. Of me and my sister.

Nick Viall (98:25)

Okay.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (98:25)

It was my sister, our girlfriend, and then our girlfriend's husband. And he said, said, how would you feel if someone said this to your wife? And then repeated the comment, the that I love that lipstick color on you? And he was like, oh, I think that would be kind of weird. He just felt off about it. So he brought it to their attention. So once I found out that he told my sister about it, my mind starts going, because I'm. I'm assuming he's more upset than I thought because he's like a bull. My husband does not like to share any personal information to people, even his closest friends. Sometimes I even have to drag things out of him. So I was a little worried. I was like, oh, no. Like, he's actually maybe upset about this. So I make the mistake of going to my friend that I had sent the original screenshot of the original comment to. I see her sitting by herself and I tell her, you know, my husband. I had this comment that was said to me. My husband does not is upset by it. I just found out he told my sister about it. And again, trying to seek validation somewhere as to like, like what I. I feel like the gravity of it should be. I guess I wasn't. So I made. I know I made the mistake there, right? So I tell her about it. At this point in the night, again, we're at a beer Olympics. I drank Almost an entire 24 pack of seltzers within the first two hours. Were there by this point of the night. I don't remember. I am hammered. I don't remember most of what the conversations I had were. I cannot tell you verbatim what, what I said in most of these conversations to the point where, and this is just from what I'm being told after the fact that I told her, which I did. But then one of our other friends who was not aware of any of this information at all, none of the backstory, she's also very close to the friend. She comes up and apparently I stopped talking when she came up, but my friend that knew about it was kind of egging me on to tell her. And she was like, so you're really not going to tell her right now? Like, you got to tell her. You're not going to tell her. So then I told her, I don't have any recollection of this.

Nick Viall (100:29)

Sure.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (100:30)

But I believe it if she said I said it. Right.

Nick Viall (100:32)

Okay.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (100:32)

So she, she tells her the rest of the night. Completely fine. The rest of the night is normal. You would never know anything. Any comment was made. We're all just having fun, enjoying our party. Cut to a week later. We have a girls trip. And we do a girls trip every year in August.

Melanie - Caller about dating (100:48)

August.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (100:48)

This is the weekend after the party. Me and my sister and one of our. The other girls, again, not involved in any of this. We go like half a day later than the rest of the girls. So we're going by ourselves to the girls trip. It's like a two hour drive. The whole time I'm getting like a uncomfortable feeling. I just feel like something's off and I don't know what it is. We show up to the house and again, the. They're not. Well, first we show up to the house and they're not there and they knew we were coming.

Nick Viall (101:13)

Who's there? The.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (101:14)

The rest of the girls. This includes the girls that knew about the history, the girl that just found out, and the wife of the friend who has no idea about any of the comments. So we get there and they're not there. They're at the pool. So we're instantly, we're like, okay, well, that's weird because they knew we were coming and the three of us were in agreement. The vibes are off. Something's weird and I'm an idiot because I had no idea it would have been anything about the past weekend and the party and things that were said. So the weekend, a day and a half goes by. Again, everything's fine, but like, something feels off and the wife of the friend is like cold shouldering Me hard. And I'm. I had no. In my mind, I'm like, I have no idea why. I really had no idea why.

Nick Viall (102:00)

I mean, how about how. How, How.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (102:02)

Yeah, yeah, more so how. Yeah. And. But it didn't in. In my head.

Nick Viall (102:05)

But I'm asking you how, like, how did that not register for you?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (102:10)

I. Because in my mind, I. I told two people. I don't remember the one I told, but I remember telling the girl that already knew the information. And in my mind, she never said anything about what I sent her two years ago. So in my head I was like, okay, like, she wouldn't, Wouldn't do that because why would she want to do that?

Nick Viall (102:27)

Sure.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (102:28)

I literally, I had no idea. Idiot. I'm an idiot. And also, I was very hammered at that party. So like, half the people I talked to, I don't remember remember.

Nick Viall (102:36)

I'm assuming the next day after that incident, you and your husband didn't really talk about what happened.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (102:44)

No, when we talk about like the comments, he. More so is just brings it back up and then is like, I really don't like that. And then it kind of goes dead again. I'm always in a place of like, well, these are your friends, right. I kind of got married into it. So, like, whatever you feel comfortable doing is what we will do. So we just did it and tried to move.

Nick Viall (103:03)

All right, so now you're getting the cold shoulder from life.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (103:06)

I'm getting cold shoulder from wife. Don't know what's going on. One of the mornings were there, I wake up and it's the wife and she asks so she can talk to me outside. Still, I have no idea what we're about to talk about.

Nick Viall (103:19)

No idea.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (103:20)

No idea. I. I tell you 100%. The thing about this friend group is we all have things with each other. There's so many of us that maybe don't, like a certain person, have issues with a certain person. And what we do is we talk to each other about it, we debt it, and then we move on.

Nick Viall (103:36)

Yeah.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (103:37)

So I thought, right. Which is why I had no, I had no worry about it. Because I was like, well, I told her and two years ago, and she didn't say anything, so why would she say something now? Well, it turns out it was the friend that knew nothing about any of it that I was told that I told at the party. The friend that.

Nick Viall (103:55)

Yeah. Who heard it secondhand.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (103:57)

Yes, yes. It was her that ended up going to the wife and the husband and telling them about it. So again, I get Pulled to a conversation, and I'm in my head, I'm like, I don't know what this is about, but this is weird. But it started to make sense because I'm like, she's been giving me a cold shoulder, so something's going on.

Nick Viall (104:12)

So what she say to you?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (104:13)

She starts conversation with, so I hear you're running your mouth about my husband and trying to tell everyone he's a creep. So instantly I felt defensive because I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, that is not at all how I portrayed it whatsoever. I repeated comments, but I wasn't like, he's a creep. He's. And I never said he. I never verbatim said.

Camille - Caller about fiancé's gambling and trust issues (104:36)

Right.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (104:36)

Hitting on me. I just said these were comments that were made that are weird.

Nick Viall (104:39)

Yeah, fair enough. Which happened.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (104:42)

Yes. So she's angry. So I'm. And I'm caught off guard because again, what did you.

Nick Viall (104:47)

But what. In what do you remember exactly what you said? I mean, she's angry, but obviously she's. She probably doesn't even know what she's angry at. And it's as easy to take it out on you doing.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (104:56)

And she's hearing it from other people, so she doesn't really know. Yeah. So she tells me that, and I'm kind of like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was like, that is not at all the situation. I said, I will. I was like, this is what happened. And I repeat to her all the way back to the screenshot from the story that he replied to, which I offered to show, but she was actually already showing that screenshot before she talked with me.

Nick Viall (105:17)

So she was showing the screenshot?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (105:20)

Yes. So while me and my sister and our other girlfriend were traveling to the girls weekend, and the rest of the girls were telling the wife about everything, showing her the screenshot, like going back the two years, which I. They must have gone back through the messages from two years ago.

Nick Viall (105:37)

And her response to that was, I.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (105:40)

Heard you're running your mouth about my husband and calling him a creep. And she's like, oh, I saw the screenshot and she didn't. I got angry because it was more of like, okay, so you don't care that he's saying weird comments to me, but you more so care about how he's being portrayed.

Sponsor Voice (105:54)

Great.

Nick Viall (105:55)

Yeah.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (105:55)

Which, I mean, obviously I shouldn't have said anything to other people. And I did own up. I owned up to that. But the root of the issue is he's saying things he shouldn't be saying to another woman. Right.

Nick Viall (106:05)

Yeah. So how did that get Resolved.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (106:07)

We talked about it all. We. Like, I let her know. Like, I wasn't trying to start drama. I was like, I told our friend two years ago about it. After the comment was made at the party, I went up to that same friend, specifically that same friend, because I knew she was one of the only people who already knew about it.

Nick Viall (106:23)

Yeah.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (106:24)

And I told her about it. Well, the wife doesn't like this friend, so that also caused an issue, too. They have their own set of issues. It's a whole mix of things. So in this conversation, I still was. Didn't know that it was the friend that jumped into the convo that had said anything. I assumed it was the friend I had told two years ago. And I.

Nick Viall (106:44)

Kind of irrelevant. But any.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (106:46)

Yeah. So. Well, she knows that. That's what I thought. Right.

Nick Viall (106:49)

But I'm just curious, what did the wife. How did things end when you spoke your truth and you were just like, you know, it wasn't my intention, but nevertheless, this happened. And this happened. Both of which made me feel a little uncomfortable. And maybe I didn't handle it the best way, but I did feel uncomfortable, and I obviously communicated that to my husband. I told a couple friends, maybe I could have handled that better or differently. Nevertheless, it did happen and it did make me feel uncomfortable. I'm assuming you communicated that I did. Okay. And then. And what was her response to that?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (107:24)

Her response was, I would hope you would know he would never try to intentionally do anything like that. We actually found out about this a few days ago. He's been eaten up by it, so upset.

Nick Viall (107:34)

Okay.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (107:35)

Which made me feel bad. Right. I was sure that was never my intention.

Nick Viall (107:39)

And then that's a fair response by her giving your acknowledgment that. That you didn't handle it the best and most productive way.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (107:46)

Yes.

Nick Viall (107:46)

But that still doesn't make you the bad guy. But anyway, so, like, what are. Where did we go from here?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (107:51)

So from here we have our conversation. It's. We seem to have talked it out. Like, we. We seem fine in that moment. But then there's the element of, well, now I have another problem, which is my friend going out of her way to now expose this information that my husband and I weren't comfortable telling yet. Obviously, we weren't probably going to tell it anyway if we've been sitting on the one thing for two years. So there comes that issue. Right. I'm thinking it's my friend. I told you years ago. So we finished the rest of our day. We had planned on going out on the town and day drinking, which is terrible idea, because I was very angry at this other friend. It all blows up. So I'm kind of giving her the cold shoulder the rest of the day. And then I guess while we're drinking, I start saying, like, making, like, comments towards her or something. And then it gets exposed that she was not the one who said anything. It was. It was the friend that came late to the party that I was shocked by because I don't remember telling her. And I would have had no idea. So it ended in me and my sister packing our stuff up and leaving because it was a pretty explosive fight we all ended up getting into. We'd been tricking all day.

Nick Viall (108:58)

Everyone's mad at everyone. Everyone has their own version. Everyone has their own truth. And everyone feels like they didn't do anything wrong. Wrong. And everyone's mad.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (109:06)

Yes. Okay, so explosive fight. We leave and we don't talk to anybody for, like, two months.

Nick Viall (109:15)

Okay.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (109:15)

Me and my husband.

Nick Viall (109:17)

I'm assuming you told your husband about the drama.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (109:19)

Oh, yes. I called him during all of it.

Nick Viall (109:21)

What was his response?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (109:22)

He was just trying to get me to calm down because I was very upset. He wasn't really happy either, that the information got out, especially from, like, who it got out by. Because in my head. Head. You're sitting on this for two years. Why are you now all of a sudden bringing it up? But I've had a couple instances with this friend. Anyway, we've had a really rocky relationship, so it felt kind of like I was being targeted by her. And she. It felt like she was manipulating this whole situation to have it blow up in this way is how it felt for me. So I was not happy about it. He was not happy about it. And they were all. They all made it seem like it wasn't a big deal. Like, the girls were telling the. What wife? We don't understand why she would do this. He has sisters. Like, he would never do anything like this, which was crazy to me.

Nick Viall (110:04)

But he did do it, right? I mean, I don't know what his intentions were, but, yeah, what he did, by most people's standards, is inappropriate.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (110:15)

Yeah. Yeah, I know it's inappropriate. And everyone I've talked to is like, yeah. And they agreed. And I agree, too.

Nick Viall (110:20)

This conversation started being like, hey, my. My husband's best friend flirted with me, and I'm the bad guy? I didn't. And I didn't ask. I kind of assumed that you were the bad guy to your husband, but it doesn't Sound like that's the case?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (110:31)

No.

Nick Viall (110:32)

Who are you the bad guy to and what are you trying to resolve and figure out?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (110:37)

Two of my friends, the wife who hates me now.

Nick Viall (110:40)

Okay. I mean, who cares?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (110:42)

There's a third that was also involved that knows about the screenshot and stuff, and then the three other girlfriends that told her, the wife about it.

Nick Viall (110:50)

So you're the bad guy to everyone, all these girls, like, you've lost all your friends kind of thing.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (110:56)

Kind of.

Nick Viall (110:57)

Which? All of them.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (110:58)

Not all of. I mean, I don't. We don't really talk anymore.

Nick Viall (111:01)

Which of these friends, before this drama all started, I'm assuming you were closer with some of these people than others. You know, your sister's involved. You got your best friend. Then you have these other women you were kind of friends with. You have this wife who was like, you know, we're friends, like. But, like, I only know her because she. She's married to my best friend's husband. Right. So which of these friends that were truly your. The friendships that mattered to you are. Actually affected the wife.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (111:26)

She was in my wedding. Like, we were that close.

Nick Viall (111:28)

Oh, okay. She was your. Okay.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (111:30)

She was. Our friendship kind of, like, I wouldn't say grew apart of her time, but I think because of, like, I don't know, maybe the comments and stuff and just other various things.

Nick Viall (111:39)

So her. Who else?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (111:40)

I was close with the other two girls at one point in time, but.

Nick Viall (111:43)

And who are the. The other two girls are the first ones. You told me.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (111:46)

Yes.

Nick Viall (111:46)

So the two girls that you told two years ago about this, who had the screenshots, they're mad at you?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (111:52)

No, I'm mad at them.

Nick Viall (111:54)

You're mad at them. Okay, fair enough.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (111:56)

Yes.

Nick Viall (111:56)

Okay. But who are you? The bad guy, like, the person you're the bad guy to that you're, you know, you called in for advice. Why am I the bad guy to. Who are the. So the wife? Who else?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (112:07)

Well, I would say the two friends, too, because they portrayed the story as if I was the villain in the story, as if I was like. Like out of line for saying anything. Because she came at me so angrily that in my head I'm like, okay, well, they must have told her a different version of the story than what I.

Nick Viall (112:23)

Why? Why?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (112:23)

Recall, they said that I was at the party, basically running around telling everybody about it, like, hyping it up. They thought that my husband was going to beat up his best friend because of how I was, like, hyping it up.

Nick Viall (112:38)

Did the two girls that you initially told you two years ago, are saying all this.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (112:41)

This. Yes.

Nick Viall (112:42)

Okay.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (112:44)

And telling her about it.

Nick Viall (112:45)

And have you had any sidebar conversations with these two friends?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (112:48)

So I did. Right after the incident happened, and we left the trip, and I came home, I messaged them the next day, and I just said, hey, like, I understand. Like, why, like, if she's at. Because it was told that she was. Asked them to tell her this, which is why they told. Right. She said, I need to know more information. Like, asked questions. They were answering the questions, portraying it a little differently than it was, but they were giving. And I said, hey, I understand. Like, if she's asking you questions, like, that's fine. I said, but I. Like, I'm hurt that this came out and not from me or my husband. I'm hurt that you guys told my story, and I. With that, they apologize. And we left it off on good notes. I'm a very forgiving person, so. And I don't like trauma. And I'm. I try to step outside and always think, like, okay, if I had someone's wife coming up to me asking me these questions, like, I would probably do the same thing. So I wasn't mad at them for that. Like, I understood where they came from, but I wanted to let them know. Like. Like, I felt blindsided by it all.

Nick Viall (113:45)

Sure. But I guess from the point you. You. You sidebar with them, you. You. You spoke your piece and you said, we were kind of fine at that point. They were like, they understood you were coming from. You felt like, yes. Okay. And then what. What happened after that?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (113:58)

So about a month after that, I. And I still haven't talked to the wife or the husband. We decide that they're going to come to my house. House and have a conversation. Just me, my husband, the best friend, and the wife. They come to our house and we have conversation.

Nick Viall (114:10)

Yeah.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (114:10)

And that's where I find out about things I don't remember from the night of the party, because she's telling me things that she had been told.

Nick Viall (114:18)

Like what?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (114:19)

That I was giddy about the idea that my husband would be mad at his best friend and that they could possibly fight, which is crazy.

Nick Viall (114:28)

And what was your response to that?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (114:31)

That. That's crazy. And I told her, I said, listen, I was very drunk that night. I was like, I might have been animated in my storytelling, but there's no way that I would have ever been championing for them to be in a fight. That's not my mo.

Nick Viall (114:45)

And did you say some version of, like, listen, I. You know, Listen again, I was drunk. I can't sit there and tell you what I did or didn't do because I don't remember. It seems like you said out of character for me to do it. Doesn't sound like I did, but if I did, if I even gave that impression to anyone, I'm sorry. Because what I can recognize is that I probably could have handled this situation better, but, like, this all started because something inappropriate happened. Whether his intentions were. I don't know what his intentions were, but, like, did they ever really just own that?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (115:17)

So I would say the husband was a lot more forgiving and understanding of the situation.

Nick Viall (115:21)

What do you mean, forgiving? Did he own, like. Did he own, like, he was more.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (115:26)

Understanding of where I was coming from? He didn't take it as me trying to, like, defame his character.

Nick Viall (115:31)

Did he ever apologize to your husband? One he did.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (115:35)

He did.

Nick Viall (115:36)

Okay.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (115:37)

He said, I apologize if I. It was more so of an apology of like, I'm sorry it came across that way. You know what I mean? Like, it was more so. It was an apology. But also, I think they were more so just worried about his character and trying to fix that. That's how it felt to me, because it was a lot of, like, they definitely apologized, but then it would backtrack to various other things. Like, he asked me if. Because the time that he had messaged me, I was postpartum, and he asked me, well, when this happened, was it around the time that you had the baby? Kind of insinuating that maybe my hormones.

Nick Viall (116:10)

He's blaming. He's blaming your hormones. That's crazy.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (116:13)

Like, he asked me that, and I. It was things like that. So it was like, there'd be an apology, but then there'd be, like, comments like that. So then it left off in a weird spot of like, we're okay, but there's definitely still underlying things. You know what I mean?

Nick Viall (116:26)

Yeah.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (116:26)

And I did apologize for my part because I said, Listen, I 100 know. I realized I shouldn't have told anybody. Like, totally understand that. And their thing was more so who I told versus, like, telling, because I told someone they're not very fond of.

Nick Viall (116:38)

So how did that end?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (116:40)

We ended by just agreeing to kind of let bygones be bygones. We talked through it all. Like, he apologized for his part. I apologize for my part. Obviously, the wife didn't have anything to apologize for. Right. And my husband either. Either. And it kind of just ended like, okay, we're gonna kind of move forward from this.

Nick Viall (116:56)

How is Your husband's friendship with his.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (116:59)

Friend these days, it's definitely different. They still talk, but they definitely don't talk as much or hang out as much as they used to. And we've been to two group events since, and they were very awkward. More so towards me and my sister, because my sister kind of, I guess, had. I don't want to say, like, banded with me, but she kind of kept her distance from some of them, too. She had your.

Nick Viall (117:21)

She had your back?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (117:21)

She had my back, yeah. So it was just. It's been kind of awkward. The wife, she won't even. We actually. So we have kids that are friends with each other, which makes it a little more weird and difficult because they're very close, like, cousins, basically. So she won't even message me if, like, she wants my kids to come over or, like, if her kids want to hang out with my kids, she won't even message me. She will go right to my husband. Like, she won't really talk to me. Me. It's just awkward energy. So, like, obviously she's upset.

Nick Viall (117:51)

How long ago was this conversation between the two couples?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (117:54)

It was in September. It felt like it was kind of like a band aid on it. You know what I mean?

Nick Viall (117:59)

And then. And that kind of brings us to present day, so to speak.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (118:02)

Yes.

Nick Viall (118:02)

What can I help you with?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (118:04)

I just wanted to get another perspective, kind of like, obviously, I know where I was in the wrong, but it. It feels like, because it's still lingering, that I keep questioning. I'm, like, if I'm a terrible person or not. I'm just. I don't know. And I don't know where, like, where I should go, like, if I should try to salvage these friendships or if I don't. I feel kind of betrayed in a way, too, because I feel like people taking something that made me feel uncomfortable and then announcing it and telling their version of it really didn't hit me the wrong way. And now they're acting like I'm the bad one because I Basically, it felt like. Like, they are saying that I'm, like, stirring drama and trying to just start drama. Right. And for me, it's not that.

Nick Viall (118:45)

Yeah. All right, so a couple things. My short and very direct, unempathetic answer is, you all kind of need to grow up. There's a cold reality as you get older, you know, your circles get smaller, Right?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (118:57)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (118:58)

Because you and your husband have your life together. You have your children. You guys, I'm sure, face challenges every day, and your kids bring home challenges, and Maybe it's just the flu, or maybe it's money problems, or maybe it's just like, you know, your kids, something's happened at school, and, you know, you all have your own shit. Six years ago, it was just like, I got my boyfriend and we have friends and we all go out, we go drink. And you guys are kind of in this kind of transitional period in your life where you're still able and wanting to, like, still, like, you know, get the girls trips and go out and have fun and do some of the same activities y' all did when you were in college together, you know, and. And things like that. And for the most part, you guys have been able to continue to do this all while all of you are growing up and having real world shit to deal with and problems that like, you know, marriages and kids. All these things that come into play that are a higher priority than just the trivialness of everyone's feelings of awkwardness and discomfort and things like that.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (119:58)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (119:59)

And I think more than anything, you just need to, like, let bygones be bygones. This drama happened, but right now, you're still kind of stuck in the drama of worrying about what everyone. Everyone thinks about you.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (120:12)

Yeah, I am.

Nick Viall (120:12)

You know, and you recognize early in this conversation that you're bad with conflict and that your husband's bad with conflict. That is what's caused all of this.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (120:21)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (120:22)

You and your husband didn't get on the same page, and you and your husband didn't address as a couple how this situation made you feel. And you two didn't address as a couple how you guys were going to move forward as a united front being knowing that you were on the same page. You probably should have encouraged your husband at that point. Point to talk to his friend in a way that wasn't aggressive, but just be like, yo, what's up with that? You know, that didn't include the girls gossiping, you know, and like, yeah, you're mad at your friends, and they definitely could have done something differently. But, like, you, you know, like, what do you. What did you expect? You know, like, this is what people do when it comes to drama. It's a silly drama. Right. And none of it really, really matters. And you, I guess you just have to decide which of these relationships are really meaningful and em. Important.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (121:10)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (121:11)

I hope the answer is, well, the only one that's really meaningful is my relationship with my husband.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (121:16)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (121:16)

You know, and I love having my friends, and my friends are important, but at the end of the day, I got My kids, I got my husband. That's all that really matters, you know, and friends come and go, and you guys will continue to make more friends as your kids grow up and go to different schools and join activities, you will make other friends through their friends. Right now you are dictating who your kids are friends with. You're like, hey, our friends have a kid around the same age, so you guys are going to be friends in a way, right? It's like you said, you referred to cousins, right? It's like, well, you know, 100%. You know, my siblings have kids right around the same age as my daughter. They're going to have a relationship because they're related, right? How much they really like each other. Do we really become friends after that? Time will only tell, right? But you are dictating who your kids are friends with. As your kids get older and they go to school, they will start dictating who you're friends with. Right? You know, when our daughter goes to school, she's going to be like, oh, I'm friends with so and so. And they'll be like, all right, do you want to. And then we'll meet their parents and then we'll decide, oh, they're cool. Yeah, we should invite them over for dinner. We should go hang out, you know? So, like, that's going to happen, and your friendships will continue to evolve, especially and hopefully, as long as your kids and your husband and your family is really the only priority. And that's not to say that you can't be a good friend. It's not to say you can't show up for friends when they need you. The days in which you woke up and called up your friend and was like, what are we gonna do today?

Sponsor Voice (122:41)

Are over.

Nick Viall (122:42)

In my 20s, even when I had a girlfriend, me and my buddies had, like, a Madden tournament. That was like, a big deal to me. And it was like my Christmas morning, and I fucking loved it. I mean, I miss it. And I think about those times. This is a great time in my life, but, like, you know, I had the luxury of only having a great girlfriend, and I could care about something as stupid as a Madden video game tournament among friends. And that was my world, you know, that's not my world anymore. I don't have time for that shit. You know, there are days I'd be like, oh, that'd be fun to do. But, like, nah, not over, like, being a good dad or a supportive husband. And, like, I just don't have the energy or time for other people's. Bullshit. I don't have time for it. And you guys have a little bit of time for it that you. And instead of choosing not to partake of the drama. Drama. You lean into the drama.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (123:25)

Yeah. This was kind of my wake up call of. Of that. Right. I think this was kind of my moment of, okay, maybe I do need to take a step back because we spent a lot of time together with this group. Like, we were seeing each other almost weekly. That's how it was a lot. And I did find, like, removing myself from a lot of that. I actually felt like a weight was lifted. I had more space up here to think about other things. You know what I mean? When you just saying all that, really hearing it from somebody else, like, puts it into perspective. Right. Because you're right. My husband and my kids, that's my priority. What do I have time else for? Like, what little time I have. Right. So I appreciate that.

Nick Viall (124:06)

I'm glad that this is helpful. I really think you and your husband need to address the fact that you're both bad at conflict, which means no doubt that when you and your husband feel conflict between each other, you guys probably have a way of ignoring it and letting it go and letting it fester and not address it. And that's something you guys need to work on because someday it will affect you too.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (124:29)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (124:29)

You know, you have to get better at just opening up and talking about it. And maybe it will. It's. Do you guys do couples therapy?

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (124:36)

No. We've talked about it, but we've never like, jumped the gun and just.

Nick Viall (124:39)

And maybe it could just be like, listen, I don't think we need couples therapy because. But like, we're not good at this. And honestly, like, this whole situation has been stress we don't need. And I really think it wasn't my fault. He sent me this. You know, you didn't do really anything wrong. But yeah, we as a couple, I think it'd be good for you guys to recognize we didn't help ourselves out the best. We didn't as a couple come together to make sure that this situation didn't bubble up to the way it did.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (125:12)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (125:12)

And you guys just didn't sit down as a couple to say, like, what are we going to do as a couple? How. How? Let's us get into our feelings. And again, sometimes a good couple's therapist can help with that because, listen, like, as you know, marriages are hard. And like, when you're both stressed, it's really easy to be even as a married Couple to just be in your thoughts and, you know, a lot is said without being said, you know, and it's hard to open up and you recognize your husband's not good at things that. And you're not good at that. So it's hard for you to get your husband to be good at that when you're not good at it yourself.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (125:42)

Yes.

Nick Viall (125:42)

So as a couple, acknowledging that and saying we could both use some help, because if nothing else, I just don't want this stupid bullshit to come between us. And the next time this happens, I just want us to be better at us communicating our feelings, because the only thing that really matters is that we're on the same page, that we feel connected, that when we feel a little rattled by something that happens, that maybe that's outside of our control, it doesn't come between us. And if we have to address somebody or something, we are good at just talking about it first and making sure on the same page and then encouraging each other to the thing that we know we're not good at, which is like, hey, I think you need to talk to him. And let's just try to, like, do what we can to make sure this doesn't blow up. It doesn't sound like you were deliberately messy. It was just you didn't know what to do. You didn't know how to talk to your husband about it. So you told your friends, you recognize you need some validation. All you need to know is that your husband knows that you didn't do anything. The only validation you should really need is from your husband. Now, again, that's in a perfect world. And it is important to have friendships. And, you know, I'm not saying don't have friends, but.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (126:49)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (126:49)

So going forward, I think you need to stop worrying about what everyone thinks about you in this friend group and then really slow down. Obviously, you have your sister and your closest friends. And then as far as the relationships that you hope to mention, you probably can mend, but it's going to take a little time.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (127:03)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (127:03)

You know, and if your husband really wants to build back his relationship with his friend, he's going to have to work through that conflict. He's going to have to ask, you know, get a beer with him and be like, yo, dude, I know that was all weird, but, like, again, just between me and you.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (127:18)

Yeah.

Sponsor Voice (127:18)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (127:18)

I'm sorry, man. Like, I thought that was a little fucked up that you questioned my wife's, you know, hormone. Like, again, I don't know what the reason. And I. I Don't. I don't think you maybe had the wrong intentions, but you need to recognize that, like, that's just weird. You don't do that, you know? Yeah, but again, it's up to your husband to try to address that. But he has to get better at conflict, and he needs that support from you. But, like, it. You know, at the end of the day, maybe he's just like. I don't know, man. Like, we were friends. I mean, my closest friends that I grew up with, I'm still lifelong friends. We. I don't know. We. We don't talk every day. We don't talk every week. Yeah, I don't have time. You know, I got shit going on, and I think that will be the new norm. And then when it comes to the relationships that really matter, you guys will just have to figure out what you have to do to solve those relationships, while at the same time recognizing there's only so much you should do. Because at the end of the day, none of these friendships are really, like, they don't matter in a. In a way.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (128:15)

Yeah. No, I think that's what I'm struggling with. Right.

Nick Viall (128:17)

Drinking buddies.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (128:18)

Yeah. Honestly, that's pretty much what we do when we get together, so.

Nick Viall (128:23)

So, you know, that's the thing. You recognize that. What. What is. Why are we friends? Well, we're friends because we're someone to go on trips with, people to go out to bars with, have a good time, game night. These are all fun, don't get me wrong. But are they necessary? Are they important? Do they feed our souls? Do they help us be better parents? Do they help us be better partners with each other? A lot of those answers are no. So when those answers become no, and then it causes more disconnect and drama than it does just fun, then you realize that maybe that we've outgrown that part of our life. I mean, there's a certain part of reality that you. Maybe that's just the answer, is that this drama made you guys recognize that, like the times in which we all. All we did was have fun with our friends and drink and have a good time. Life's a little more complicated for you guys now.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (129:14)

Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. I think I've been figuring that out. Hearing it from someone else, that has no association, and it hits harder. You know what I mean? You saying that? Definitely. 100%.

Nick Viall (129:26)

I'm glad this was helpful.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (129:27)

It was.

Nick Viall (129:28)

Your priority is your family. Your priority is your husband. And I encourage you and your husband to acknowledge that you guys have a lot of work to do when it comes to conflict resolution. And if you don't, it will affect your relationship at some point.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (129:42)

Yeah.

Nick Viall (129:43)

And being proactive and getting the help of someone like a couples therapist who can help you guys work through that while you're not experiencing some great disconnect is a really great time to address that weakness that you both have.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (129:57)

Yeah, definitely.

Nick Viall (129:58)

Cool. Keep us posted on how things play out. We'd love to hear it.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (130:02)

Definitely. Thank you so much.

Nick Viall (130:04)

My pleasure.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (130:05)

Awesome.

Nick Viall (130:05)

Take care.

Stephanie - Caller about husband's best friend (130:06)

You too. Thank you.

Nick Viall (130:07)

All right. Bye. Bye.