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- [00:02]
Lucy
You're crazy.
- [00:13]
Nick Viall
Don't forget Vile Files plus now offers ad free episodes for all Vile Files episodes, including Ask Nick Reality Recap, and Going Deeper. Plus, if you love Ask Nick, you will absolutely love our Ask Nick updates where you get updates of your favorite calls, our deep dive on all your favorite reality recap TV shows, and our pop culture roundups where we talk about all your favorite pop culture topics that we didn't get to in this week's episode. Plus deep dives on our Going Deeper guest, and so much more. All you have to do is go to Val Files plus and you will be lucky you did. How's it going?
- [00:52]
Lucy
I'm good. How are you?
- [00:53]
Nick Viall
Good. What's your name?
- [00:54]
Lucy
My Name's Lucy. I'm 25 years old and my question is, am I self sabotaging or have I just not met my mat?
- [01:04]
Nick Viall
Okay, maybe both. Who knows? Why do you feel like you're self sabotaging?
- [01:09]
Lucy
I have been going on dates for, like, about a year and a half now, and I never really had the thought that I was self sabotaging until my most recent, like, guy I was talking to. And every guy I've talked to or, like, matched with for the past year, I've been like, there's just been something that I get the ick. Or I'm like, and they're not for me me. And I just kept thinking, like, yeah, like, there's a lot of fish in the sea type thing. Like, not everyone I match I'm gonna like. But then in like, early December, I matched with a guy and he, like, everything about him seemed great. Like, no red flags. He seemed very genuine and intentional and sincere and, like, our lifestyles kind of matched very well. And then it started going really well. We were going on dates and I was enjoying it. But then the closer we got, I kind of was, like, pulling back and I, like, just decided to, like, be super nitpicky. Pick something. Like, I don't like that about him anymore. So now, like, looking back at the dating I've been doing the past year, I'm like, I have been just very nitpicky. And it's usually when, like, we start to get closer.
- [02:22]
Nick Viall
Do you remember some of the nitpicky things that caused you to break things off with the. With these guys?
- [02:30]
Lucy
And it's so bad because they're, like, really stupid. But one guy, like, laughed really hard at my joke, and I was just like, he left really hard. I'm not that funny. So he kind of gave me the ick and yeah, like, it's stuff. Like some stuff is legit. Like, there was a guy who is really. He, like, was really religious, went to church every Sunday, and that's like, not my lifestyle. So, like, some stuff is legit reasons. But some guys I didn't even meet, and it was like a text they sent where, like one guy was like, we hadn't met yet, but he was like, oh, it's a rainy afternoon. Like, I wish I could come cuddle you, and I cuddle. We haven't met yet.
- [03:19]
Nick Viall
That's a little weird. Okay, well, I mean, listen, I mean, that's. You wouldn't be the first person to mix your. Mix up your. Not your non negotiables and pet peeves and, you know, I don't know, maybe men and women are both kind of fickle, but obviously you can recognize that being turned off by a guy's laugh is probably a little silly and a little much. That being said, are there. Is there any particular one of these guys that you are, like, missing or a little regretful by ending it because, like, you forgot about the laugh and we're like, oh, shit. I had a pretty good time with this person.
- [04:03]
Lucy
Not really.
- [04:04]
Nick Viall
Okay.
- [04:05]
Lucy
Like, every date I've been on, I was kind of like, either in the middle of it, I was like, I want to leave, or like, I just had no interest. There was like one date I went on where I really liked the guy, and then he told me afterwards, like, I'm not interested.
- [04:20]
Nick Viall
Okay.
- [04:20]
Lucy
Other than that.
- [04:21]
Nick Viall
And I guess what was. What did that feel like? I mean, other than, like, obviously not fun. But did that, like, really upset you or were you kind of like, okay, fair enough.
- [04:31]
Lucy
I was kind of like, okay, fair enough. Like, he. The way he worded it, he was like, I feel like I'm too busy to date right now. Which I was like, okay, like, that is a. That's fair. But like, we have mutual. So we follow each other on Instagram and stuff. So I see him posting and with other friends or like, I've seen him on Hinge again.
- [04:53]
Nick Viall
Yeah.
- [04:53]
Lucy
So I think that was just an excuse, which. That part made me feel bad, but him, like, rejecting me didn't really.
- [05:00]
Nick Viall
I mean, listen, you know, he's going to date, but, you know, there's difference between dating and investing in a relationship. So it's not. It's not totally disingenuous when someone's like, yo, listen. You know, and like the fact that you guys had mutuals. He was probably a little more cautious about you Know. Yeah, those fuck boy qualities of like, you know, let's just see where it goes. And you know, with real no intention of being serious. And the fact that you guys have mutuals. Yeah, it's probably a little more, a little, little more cautious about that. I mean, listen, I think the biggest takeaway is that you don't really have a regret, you know, like, it's not like any of these guys are standing out. If you want to, like, listen, I think if you're really that worried about it, if a guy does something that rubs you the wrong way or gives you the ick, maybe you can in the moment recognize that's obviously not the reason to end something. Maybe you could encourage yourself to go like on one more date with one of these guys, you know, is if nothing else, kind of the practice of being like, okay, he definitely gave me the ick. But you know, we're only human and I'm sure I do stuff too. So I don't know, let's just go on one more date. You can kind of see where it goes. But I also think there's a part like, listen, like it doesn't take us long I think early on to just know whether we're vibing with someone or whether we're excited, you know. And I think you don't, you know, like some, a lot of it is chemistry or you know, just kind of that intangible feeling where you like are really into someone's vibe. Now you can be into someone's vibe and you can be excited about someone and you can have a lot of chemistry and it still doesn't mean you're compatible and it still doesn't mean you're going to be able to figure it out and still doesn't mean that you, you know, your non negotiables lineup. But yeah, I mean you're only 25, right? So there, there is that. And other than that, because you probably didn't need me to say that and I'm guessing you know all this but like, I mean, is there a part of you, like what, what's the part of you that's actually worried that you're doing something wrong?
- [07:02]
Lucy
Like, I just find that like when I get close to them, which is like when I decide like we're not right, but like I don't want to be doing that.
- [07:13]
Nick Viall
So I just need like, like physically close.
- [07:15]
Lucy
I mean physically and like emotionally. I guess like the last guy, like we talked for a couple months and like the first two, three months, like we were like dating like, normal, like, multiple dates a week. Like, I made the first move to kiss him. Like, I was super into it.
- [07:31]
Nick Viall
Yeah.
- [07:32]
Lucy
But then invited me to his house to meet his dogs. And he was like, you know, I'm very, like, I keep things close to my chest. Like, to be honest, no one's ever met my dogs but my family. Like, this is a big step for me. And when he said that, like, immediately I was like, this isn't for me anymore. When, like, there was nothing really about him that I shouldn't have liked. And, like, I felt our chemistry and everything was really good. And it's just like. Yeah. Kind of in that, like, every time the guy wants to, like, introduce me to his friends or, like, get closer, that's when I pull away.
- [08:10]
Nick Viall
What do you think that is? Like, what do you. Is there a part?
- [08:13]
Lucy
I don't know? Like, I was in a relationship, like, about a year and a half ago, and it ended kind of badly. Like, he cheated on me with his ex girlfriend and stuff, which sucked. And, like, I was obviously very heartbroken and sad, but I don't feel like I'm, like, scared to be, like, heartbroken again. Like, I don't think that, like, I learned a lot from that. I learned I have, like, a good group of people around me that can help me. So, like, during the last relationship, I was like, I guess pretty unhappy, but, like, I didn't want to be alone in a sense.
- [08:50]
Nick Viall
Yeah.
- [08:51]
Lucy
So I, like, just put up with it. And, like, my anxiety got really bad during the relationship. Like, I was starting to have anxiety attacks a lot. Like, unprompted. And so I think I, like, my brain is kind of, like, going into survival mode when I start to get close to someone because they're like, you don't want to have those anxiety attacks. You don't want to be unhappy and feel stuck again type thing.
- [09:16]
Nick Viall
Yeah. I mean, there probably. There probably is a little bit of all that. And I think your. Your self analysis is probably pretty accurate. Right. Like, I think, you know, when we're. When we're dating, when we're younger, I've said this before, right? Like, there's not a lot. You don't know much. Right. You have. If, especially if your first relationship, you. You feel something, you jump into it, you try things out. Your first relationship's a lot of trial and error. But, like, you experienced this relationship that, you know, didn't break you certainly was hurtful. It ended with him, you know, cheating on you. But, like, hearing you talk about this relationship that wasn't your big pain point and that wasn't your big takeaway. You, you kind of realized that your anxiety and, and, and sadness around this relationship started before it ended. And it sounds like maybe you were having a hard time. You know, anxiety, you know, comes from like a fear of the future. You know, the kind of not sure how to like what's, what's, what's going to happen next and things like that. We kind of ruminate, you know, sometimes we can feel stuck. You know, it's your body telling you that something's a little off, but you're not really sure what the solution is. And so, you know, I think that's good for you to remember, you know, and maybe there's a part, it's not self sabotage, you know, maybe there's a little bit of that, but there's also maybe a just a part of you, your, your intuition fine tuning itself, realizing that like relationships take a lot of work, right? And they are an investment. And if you want to be in a relationship, you're going to have expectations of that person, they're going to have expectations of you. Hopefully those expectations line up, but like, often they don't. And so, yeah, I mean, you're probably just like, these are just probably filters you have where you're just like, you know, you told the example of a guy invited you over, he met his dog, he was like, this is a big step for me. And hearing him say that was kind of like your, your body, your intuition being like, yeah, I don't, I don't know if I, I'm ready to invest more in this guy. You know, it's like at that point you had hung out with him a bunch of times, you had dated, you were getting to know him and, and probably younger, you would have been like, oh, okay, like, I guess this is like the natural next step. Now the older, more experienced version of you was more like, well, okay, I know where this goes. And I guess, am I ready to like, you know, make sacrifices for this guy, you know, and do X, Y and Z, do I want to ask him, you know, count on him and, and something told you, no, you are only looking for one. I mean, the challenge you're going to find, right? And I think, I think what you're experiencing, quite honestly, from what I can tell is like, honestly, like natural growing pains of dating and having and getting experience, right? And honestly, it sounds like maybe a step in the right direction. The challenge you're going to find though, as you know, I think a lot of people do in your shoes is at some point you might have to break through these, like, barriers that tell you to go, I don't know. The more you get better at being alone and the more you get better at being, like, independent and kind of doing things, you know, only really needing yourself, which is nice. You know, it's very kind of like, I don't need anyone. You know, it's kind of nice. But you become a little more cynical. You become a little more selfish. You know, you're used to just doing what you want when you want it, and you don't have to check in with anyone. And so there will be a part where you maybe have to work through that feeling of like, I don't want to have to answer to anyone. Right. So my guess, but my guess is if you do that, if you say self sabotage with the wrong person being the right person, you're going to miss them. You'll get over yourself. You know, you will. Most likely, you know, I think chances are you will. You might get the ick, you might get annoyed, but you're going to still wish they called and you're still going to want to spend time with them. And I think these guys you're dating now just aren't your guy. You know, just a lot of nice guys that you've met, some of which are into you and not into you and vice versa. And. And you're probably saving yourself a lot of the disappointment and time of dating people that deep down you're just like, intuition is like, not my guy.
- [13:32]
Lucy
Yeah, because, like, yeah, I wasn't sure if that was the case or if I was like. Because I'm kind of being, like, discouraged of dating now or like, I haven't been on the dating apps, like, in a couple months since that guy. And I, like, stopped talking because I'm like this, like, I match with good guys, but then I like going out of my way to find something to stop talking to them about. So it's like, like, I don't want to say, like, I'm wasting these good guys. Like, that sounds bad. I don't know how else to rephrase it, but, like, I'm like, going through all these good guys that could be, like, really good for me or nice, but I'm just like, maybe not in the right headspace or something. I don't know.
- [14:13]
Nick Viall
It is hard to say. I mean, I' talk to you for a few minutes here, but. But maybe you're not in the right headspace. Right? Like, you, you know, just again, you're only 25. I really. From what you're describing, I think it's more likely that you're meeting nice men that aren't your guy. And just because they're nice guys doesn't mean you're supposed to be obsessed with them. They're just like, yeah, they'd be good for a friend or your sister or, you know, whatever, you know, but not for you. And they're nice. And.
- [14:42]
Lucy
Yeah.
- [14:42]
Nick Viall
And again, I just think it's okay to be discouraged from dating. Who wouldn't be discouraged from dating? It can be difficult. I think it's fine to take a couple months break off a dating app. I don't think that means you're broken or that you, you know, you have some big issue to work through. We all have stuff to work through. And, you know, I don't know if you do therapy or anything like that, but you do.
- [15:04]
Lucy
Yeah.
- [15:05]
Nick Viall
Do you ever talk to your therapist?
- [15:06]
Lucy
I've been in it for about a year now.
- [15:08]
Nick Viall
What do you talk with your therapist about when it comes to dating?
- [15:11]
Lucy
I, like, tell her, like, every time I go on a date or, like, if I'm, like, going through. Or, like, yeah, I tell her, like, if I got the ick from someone and stuff, and she says, like, the family dynamic I have, like, my parents and stuff, she said she thinks that has a big thing to do with it. Like, I've never really seen, like, a good relationship ever in my life, so she thinks maybe that has something to do with it.
- [15:38]
Nick Viall
What do you think about that?
- [15:40]
Lucy
I think that it's, like. Could be true. Like, every relationship I've kind of seen, like, they just fizzled out. Or like, even the ones I've been in, they just fizzled out. Or like, someone does something bad to the other person such that, like. Yeah, probably like me my whole life. Seeing that could have really affected, like, because, like you said before, like, I am in a good spot right now where, like I said, really do enjoy being alone. Like, right after the breakup and stuff. Like, even a day alone, I would just, like, be so uncomfortable with my alone time and just hanging out with myself. But now I am so comfortable with it, so I'm, like, adding someone into the mix. Like, I'd rather just be alone at, like, watching TV than having to go hang out with someone.
- [16:24]
Nick Viall
Yeah. I mean, honestly, it's a fun time in your life, and you've only been feeling like that for a short period of time and you're only 25. I mean, the real trick is. Yeah, is to enjoy this time in your life without feeling like there's. You're doing something wrong. And then again, most likely is this. You just have slightly better filters when it comes to the people that you're picking. And just like, again, just if you think you're being a little silly or you think you're being a little picky or unfair when it comes to your ex, there's nothing stopping you from just maybe ignoring that intuition a little bit and going on another date and seeing where it goes in the meantime.
- [17:04]
Lucy
Yeah, I mean, like, with the last guy.
- [17:06]
Nick Viall
Go ahead.
- [17:06]
Lucy
Sorry.
- [17:06]
Nick Viall
No, please.
- [17:07]
Lucy
With the last guy. Like, yeah, I got the ick. Or like, I didn't feel it. But then I still kept seeing him. I want to say like a month still after that.
- [17:17]
Nick Viall
And then. Then he mentioned how important his dogs were. You meeting them.
- [17:21]
Lucy
No, like, he mentioned that I went to his house, he made me dinner and all that. And then I still kept seeing him for like a month after. Because, yeah, I was like, I mean, I was so into it up until now. Like, there can't be anything wrong. But then, because I, like, wasn't into it. I think you can kind of tell because he. He ended it because he was like, I don't think you're into this anymore. And like, I told you, I'm intentional. And I, like, want to meet someone.
- [17:47]
Nick Viall
And I'm like, okay, yeah, I mean, listen, I don't. I don't know. I think it sounds like to me you're doing things pretty right. And I think you're just second guessing yourself. You got the ick. You kept hanging out with him. You gave him another chance. Again, all it is is, like, I think you're just a little hard on yourself in terms of the expectations of, oh, if I meet a nice guy, I'm supposed to, like, fall in love with him or something. Like, yeah, you liked him.
- [18:11]
Lucy
Yeah, I think I.
- [18:12]
Nick Viall
He was fine.
- [18:12]
Lucy
Definitely have in my head a fairy tale fantasy where I'm like, even if I match someone on hinge, I, like, immediately think, like, does he look nice? Or, like, does he look like he can fit in with my friends and my family? And it's like, I just match with him. Like, I know I definitely need to calm that part down. Like, I don't know how to, like, I guess, casual date. Like, once I match with someone, my thoughts immediately go to, like, well, this is it then. Like, I, like, like, he looks nice. He had set, like, his prompts sound like he has good hobbies. Like, I'm Going to like just put all my eggs in his basket type thing. I want to be able to casual thing be like, oh yeah, I matched someone going a couple dates. Nothing really comes out of it and that's fine. But like my headspace going into dates and stuff isn't like that. And I, I know that needs to change.
- [19:05]
Nick Viall
I don't know how much is going to change because I think it's kind of natural. I think the difference is you just having the self awareness to know that. Like obviously that's a little silly, you know, like, but it's instinctually fun when you match someone to get a little bit excited. And then you have to just before you go on the date, just be like, all right, well I guess let's see if, let's see if all my, you know, you have to answer those questions, right? It's normal to ask those questions, you know, like you matched for a reason. So of course you're gonna wonder if this, you know, I wonder if we have a good date. I wonder if we have good banter. I wonder if it'll fit in with my family. Many of them, you find out that there's a no on there. You know, you said you want to get better at casual dating. You're actually, it sounds like you're pretty good at casual dating because you are D. You're getting to know some of these guys. You're stopping it often when it's something telling you that like I don't know if it's not my guy, you haven't missed any of them. Chances are they're not, you know, there's no the one who got away until you worry that that's the case, that I wouldn't worry too much about you becoming that you're self sabotaging as far as like not having, you know, again, you mentioned good role models. It sounds like you're aware enough that like despite maybe not seeing your parents have this long relationship, but you know, what they didn't do, right? You know, or you, you know, it's like, have you, you've had relationships, friends, your parents, siblings, whatever of you've been. You've fought with siblings or fought with friends. Right? Like you've, you've been close with someone, there's been a disconnect, you've had to work to get back to that place, you know, some version of that. Right. I mean, it's the same thing with romantic relationships. So I'm sure.
- [20:46]
Yvonne
Yeah.
- [20:46]
Nick Viall
You know, I, I think you're just a little hard on yourself. I think, honestly, just. I would just keep dating because, yeah.
- [20:52]
Lucy
I think, like, when I meet, like, these nice guys and then I don't like them back, like, yeah, I'm so hard on myself. Like, what is wrong with me? Like, it's a nice guy in front of me. Like, why can't I just, like, get over it and like him back?
- [21:06]
Nick Viall
Why do you. Why do. Yeah, why do you need to like someone?
- [21:09]
Lucy
Yeah, because, like, when I'm alone, sometimes I do get lonely, and I'm like, I do want to be in a relationship now. And then I meet a nice guy and I decide he laughed too hard. And then I'm like, well, there has to be something wrong with me, because I do. I say I want this, and I do feel like I do.
- [21:25]
Nick Viall
Many people want to have that romantic connection. Many people want to find, you know, they don't want to be alone. Right. Like, you're kind of going through, like, being single for a long period of time was a great time in my life. And it was also, like, honestly, the saddest time in my life because you often feel alone and loneliness can catch up with you, you know, and the challenge is, as we get older, is still having the willpower and the boundary to say, well, yeah, I can be lonely, but that doesn't mean I have to panic. It doesn't mean I have to lower my standards and just date anyone just so I don't feel alone. You know, you just invest in other relationships, friends, you know, things like that, and then just have the hope and the patience to know that it will happen at some point. But you just keep getting back out there. You just keep getting your swings in, you try people out. And the fact that you are better at realizing sooner than later without, you know, before, younger, you would probably have to date someone for a year or two years before you realize that. Now you can just hang out with them for a month or two and realize that, which allows you to make yourself available for the right person when they come along. So I think, honestly, you're just a little hard on yourself. I think it sounds like you're doing things pretty well. And then, you know, just reflect every once in a while. Ask yourself, you know, when. When you know you're being fickle, when you know it's ridiculous that, you know, you cut someone off for a laugh, then you could just be like, what? Yeah. But nevertheless, if you don't like them, you don't like them. If you're not into them, you don't end them. You know, you're, you're, your body knows. You know, I think more self sabotage is when you really are like, you have a deep connection and you really care for someone and you do destructive things where you bring, you, you are bringing up fights and you're just egging them on and then you know, or you're, you're, you're acting out in self destruct, destructive ways. Then to me that's more of a sign of like you really need to look at your actions because it really seems like you're, you're, you're, you have a habit of pushing relationships that are meaningful to you away. But these are just, these are just more, more or less nice strangers that present as nice guys. And most of them probably are. And over the course of a few weeks they're just like, you're just like, I don't know. And that's okay. That's totally okay.
- [23:45]
Yvonne
Okay.
- [23:46]
Lucy
It does make me feel better because I was really, I really, really thought like, I'm the issue.
- [23:51]
Nick Viall
Listen, we all have things to work on and it's good that you are willing to look in the mirror and reflect. But I don't know, you know, sometimes it doesn't have to be some deep underlying issue. You just maybe at 25, haven't found your person.
- [24:05]
Lauren
Yeah.
- [24:06]
Nick Viall
And you know, every once in a while try to get out of your comfort zone. It's good to practice. Maybe it's saying yes to a date where you, your instincts were like, I don't know if I'm really interest interested or maybe that second date, whatever. I think you can look, you know, as far as, if you think you're lacking good examples of healthy relationships, the world's surrounded with examples. So I'm sure you can find those examples. And you know, sounds like you're aware of what healthy habits are or not. So I wouldn't sell yourself that short. And in the meantime, just take it easy on yourself. And I think you're doing, I actually, I think you're doing all right. Sounds like.
- [24:39]
Lucy
Okay.
- [24:40]
Lauren
Thanks.
- [24:40]
Lucy
And I would much rather like this. I guess like when I met my ex, I just wanted to be in a relationship so bad. I got with the first guy who really showed interest.
- [24:52]
Yvonne
Yeah.
- [24:52]
Lucy
And it turned out awful.
- [24:53]
Nick Viall
Yeah. There you go. So. And that's. Honestly, there's a. If there's any part of you, I wouldn't call it self sabotage, but maybe your intuition is a little hypertuned to you not wanting to waste your time and to you jumping in a relationship doesn't serve you, so. But again, the example you gave some guy, gave you Nick, you hung out with him for a month later, and eventually he was like, I get you're not into me, so I. That doesn't seem to me like someone who, like, panics and, like, jumps ship too early.
- [25:24]
Lauren
Okay.
- [25:25]
Nick Viall
All right.
- [25:26]
Lucy
Yeah, I think I'm definitely getting better. Like, every guy before that. Like, most guys I honestly don't even meet because their text just weird me out, honestly. Yeah, I think I'm definitely getting better in this guy. Like, definitely push me in the right direction even more, I guess.
- [25:43]
Nick Viall
All right. And then. Yeah, take some breaks. I think you're doing. I think you're doing fine, honestly.
- [25:47]
Lauren
Okay, Thanks.
- [25:49]
Lucy
I know you keep saying 25 is young, but it feels so old.
- [25:52]
Nick Viall
It never feels. Yeah. Like it'll feel young in five years.
- [25:58]
Lucy
Yeah, I know.
- [25:59]
Nick Viall
You know, All I'm saying is, I just don't. You're not at the point where I feel like you need to panic, and I think you have to just have a little patience and, you know, know that you're doing. You're doing a good job, honestly. You're doing a good job of not wasting your time, and so maybe just be a little focused on again. It already sounds like you're doing it to just not be so reactive when you feel that it. But it honestly doesn't sound like you really are. You can't help how you feel, and you want to be excited about someone, you want to miss someone you want to not be, you know, and you just haven't found that yet.
- [26:35]
Lucy
Yeah, I felt really bad about, like, when me and that guy ended it because I was like, oh, like, that could have been really good. Like, he seemed like a good guy and stuff. And then I watched the Notebook, and obviously, it's like a fake movie, but the way, like, they just loved each other, I was like, no, I did the right thing because I want to feel like that about someone.
- [26:58]
Nick Viall
Their relationship was a little toxic. He did threaten to kill himself that date. Yeah.
- [27:04]
Lucy
The first time they met. Yeah. But overall, they just loved each other too much.
- [27:10]
Nick Viall
Yeah. Yeah. They hurt a lot of people on the way.
- [27:14]
Lucy
They definitely did.
- [27:16]
Nick Viall
But it's a good. I love the movie.
- [27:18]
Lucy
But if you look at it through. If you look at it through their eyes, it's only because their love was so strong.
- [27:23]
Nick Viall
Yeah. Well, be careful to mimic love after those relationships. They're.
- [27:28]
Lucy
Oh, yeah, I know.
- [27:29]
Nick Viall
I know. It's a good movie, though. All right, well, appreciate the call. I think you're doing a Pretty swell job, dating. And I think more than anything, give yourself some grace. And when a relationship, you know, or, or a guy you're hanging out with ends, I think you could just be okay with it. You know, that's my big takeaway for you, is that you, it doesn't have to. You don't have to self analyze every time and you don't have to. You're not into them. That's okay. You shouldn't be into most guys.
- [27:58]
Lucy
Okay. Yeah, I, I needed to hear that because when I. Yeah, when I'm not into them and they're into me, I just feel super, super bad. But it's okay.
- [28:08]
Nick Viall
Imagine being the bachelor, you're just like, yeah, I know.
- [28:12]
Lucy
I, I watched every season. I can never imagine.
- [28:15]
Nick Viall
They don't, you don't typically, you don't like any of them, you know, and they're all wonderful.
- [28:20]
Lucy
That would be tough.
- [28:21]
Nick Viall
All wonderful, good looking people. You're just like, they're just not your, your people, you know? All right.
- [28:27]
Lucy
You got the ick from all 30 people.
- [28:30]
Nick Viall
All right, well, appreciate the call.
- [28:32]
Lucy
Yeah, I appreciate your help and I just want to say congrats on the twins.
- [28:35]
Nick Viall
Thank you so much.
- [28:36]
Lucy
Really happy for you guys. I saw your post.
- [28:39]
Nick Viall
Really appreciate it.
- [28:40]
Lucy
Okay, well, thank you.
- [28:41]
Nick Viall
All right, take care.
- [28:42]
Lucy
Bye.
- [28:43]
Nick Viall
Bye. Bye. How's it going?
- [28:45]
Lauren
Hi, Nick. I'm Lauren. I'm 34 and I'm wondering how do I protect to my husband and our family from his parents?
- [28:54]
Nick Viall
Oh my God. Why do you need. Why do they need protection?
- [28:57]
Lauren
So it's a loaded question. Obviously, that's why I'm calling. There's been like a long history of emotional manipulation, guilt tripping, emotional caretaking, behavior that kind of causes trouble and problems, but then no accountability, boundary crossing. A lot of frustrating things that have been going on a long time. We've been together over 10 years, but since having our child last year, I feel like they've really come to light and they've been hard to ignore and we've been struggling, like, I've been struggling to support him and he's been struggling with just coming to the realization that his parents are not the people that he wants them to be. And that he's really been essentially like emotionally abused a majority of his life and cast as like this horrible person and name calling and still feeling that guilt of like, those are my parents and I love them and I want them to love me. And so I, I guess, need some clarity on how do I support him through something that's this hard While also like, how much of it is selfish if I kind of draw lines that I feel like are the best for both of us and our child.
- [30:21]
Nick Viall
Do you have examples?
- [30:23]
Lauren
I have a lot of examples. So usually this it, these major, like major life milestones or events tend to be the most triggering because from my perspective, it feels like it's almost like a reminder that like, they're not central in our lives or they don't have control over their son. And so like, for example, when we had our child beforehand, we were getting a lot of comments like about how things were going to change and they were going to be left out and we were going to gravitate towards my parents. And even when presented with like facts or like we're, we're all together right now, there's still a lot of like, guilt tripping and like, almost like making my husband afraid to upset them. But then when my child was born, they came to the hospital, they met the baby, but then they spun this whole like, story that we were telling them they weren't welcome at the hospital, calling my family and telling lies about things my husband said. So they're like involving other family members, my family triangulating. And then when confronted, it's like, well, that's just how I feel. I don't have to apologize because those are my feelings. And then I'm not sure if you're familiar with the term darvo. It stands for deny, attack, reverse victim and offender. Yeah, Something I learned in therapy. So that happens a lot where it's like you bring up something factual and then it's like, well, actually you did. Blah, blah, blah. And so it just like it's this never ending loop of like my husband then feeling like, well, I guess there are things I can work on too. And as an outsider, but also an insider to the family dynamic, it's like banging my head against the wall because to me it's so clear what's happening. But for him, it's like he's battling with like a lifelong of this dynamic of like tiptoeing around his parents and trying not to upset them.
- [32:23]
Nick Viall
Does he have siblings?
- [32:25]
Lauren
He has one sibling and that sibling, I feel like, sees it a little bit. But what's tricky is from my perspective, I feel like the family dynamic as a whole has like almost kept them from being really close. So it's almost like a golden child versus scapegoat type of thing where my husband's the scapegoat and he's like cast to other family members as this Horrible troublemaker. And his sibling is the one who kisses up to them and goes to their house every weekend and does what they want. Caves in when there's an argument. So I think he sees it, but he plays the role of path of least resistance. So it makes it kind of tricky for my husband because he kind of feels alone.
- [33:12]
Nick Viall
Like, right now I'm curious. Like, I mean, I don't know how it was when he was a kid, but now. Now it sounds like he has. You. You guys have a kid together?
- [33:21]
Lauren
Yes.
- [33:21]
Nick Viall
You know, it sounds like his parents are being a pain in the ass. What are they saying or doing? And what. How is he doubting himself in that regard?
- [33:30]
Lauren
So a couple. Yeah, a couple of things since the hospital. I mean, there were things before our child was born, but since then there have been a couple big things where, like, from my perspective, I've said, like, we need to address this. Like, this is not okay. And he agrees.
- [33:48]
Nick Viall
And like, what?
- [33:49]
Lauren
We'll talk to them. And for example, after that hospital incident, they were going around right in front of my husband at a family event, like, talking badly about us in front of him. So he would hear.
- [34:00]
Nick Viall
What were you saying?
- [34:01]
Lauren
Saying like that they. We exclude them from everything that we send my family pictures and not them saying, like, that they. All they want to do is be loving grandparents and that we're keeping them from doing that and just like portraying themselves as victims and leaving out like, the reason for some distance.
- [34:22]
Nick Viall
Have you ever.
- [34:23]
Lauren
So when we confront.
- [34:24]
Nick Viall
Confronted them about that.
- [34:26]
Lauren
So we did. And just to keep in mind, they were saying that, but we were seeing them once a week at that point, at least. So they weren't being left out. They were coming over, spending time with us, spending time with their grandchild. It just didn't match the situation. But it's this belief that they had that they're excluded. So it was frustrating to be in front of family members and to hear these things being said that paint us in this bad light and they're not even really factually accurate. So after the fact, we had a phone call with them and we brought it up and there's name calling. I don't want to say what they called me, but they called me a few things, which is really hard because I went into my relationship with him just wanting to be close with his family. And I'm not somebody who name calls. I tend to be more of a people pleaser. I don't want to say because I feel like I'm just like, I have this fear that they're going to hear this and they're going to know that it's me.
- [35:26]
Nick Viall
But it was bad. Bad?
- [35:29]
Lauren
Yeah. Like, there's just like, there's this thing where if you confront them with anything that they can't quickly come up with an excuse for. It just is like yelling and name calling and it's very hard to get a word in.
- [35:43]
Nick Viall
And then what is your husband doing when. When they're yelling at you?
- [35:47]
Lauren
So at that point in time, that was like a year ago, he was like stunned and I think was just like, I don't know how to handle this. And I was like trying to diffuse the situation. And we ended that phone call on like telling them what great parents they are because that was the only way to like end the conversation. And afterwards we were like, we need help. So we both ended up going to therapy at that point separately. We did do couples therapy for a little while.
- [36:19]
Nick Viall
Was that helpful? I mean, what did you learn?
- [36:21]
Lauren
I do feel like it's helpful for him because I don't feel like he really fully processed just how unhealthy this dynamic was until having a child. And so now being in therapy, I feel like he's kind of digging into like underneath the surface, like what at the root of it is, like what has, what trauma this has caused for him and how he's responded in the past has made it hard for me to be around them. So I do, I feel like therapy is helping him. But then at the same time, there are moments where he says something and I'm like, we're just going around in circles.
- [37:01]
Nick Viall
Like, what?
- [37:02]
Lauren
Okay, so there was another discussion a couple months ago after a big event where they were crying and they were threatening to write us out of their will at the event.
- [37:12]
Nick Viall
Why were they crying?
- [37:14]
Lauren
Because my child wanted to play with their friend instead of them. So there were tears, they left the.
- [37:21]
Nick Viall
Party, they both were crying.
- [37:22]
Lauren
Tears from father in law and full blown meltdown from mother in law.
- [37:28]
Nick Viall
And how old's your child?
- [37:30]
Lauren
1.
- [37:31]
Nick Viall
Because your 1 year old didn't want to play with them at the time.
- [37:35]
Lauren
He saw his friend run by and it's his little bestie and reached for the friend. And that made them feel, I'm assuming that made them feel hurt and unimportant and caused kind of like, are they tantrum from my perspective, are they rich or something?
- [37:57]
Nick Viall
Like, do what, what, what? Why are they so entitled?
- [38:01]
Lauren
I guess it's funny you ask that. I don't, I don't, I don't think that they are Struggling. I don't, I wouldn't say that they're rich, but they definitely use gifts, gifts and money as like leverage for sure. I think that they both have their own childhood trauma and I mean we all have some form of something that's hurt us, but I don't think that they're capable of like self reflecting and apologizing because after this event my husband spoke to them and they took no accountability. But you had asked like what my husband says that shows, like we're kind of going around in circles. He had that. We had this event. He had a conversation with them after they took no accountability. There was yelling, crying. Of course my husband left that conversation feeling like maybe there's more I could do, which is what always happens because he's very self reflective, like he puts too much pressure on himself.
- [39:01]
Nick Viall
Well, I mean, yeah, that makes sense because it sounds like his parents often are asking for more.
- [39:06]
Lauren
Yeah, I feel like they want him to be their like emotional parent or their emotional support.
- [39:14]
Nick Viall
Oh, they just want to be the center, you know, they want it. They want to continue to be the center of his world.
- [39:20]
Lauren
Yeah. So we had this big conversation with them. He left feeling like, you know, that was the last straw. This is my last effort at like trying to get them to hear me. And you know, if something else happens in the future, I'm going to consider going no contact with them. And I was like, gosh, like okay, that's really serious. And then just a few weeks later there was a big incident and it was like the same things that always is. It kind of showed they didn't really hear him. And he said again, like, this is their last chance. Like if they, you know, can't hear me, then, you know, I'm going to consider going no contact. And I just feel like we're always having these big conversations with them where he's trying to like use logic and reasoning to explain where he's coming from and be heard. And it's like the little boy in him just wants to be heard and seen by his parents and they just take no accountability and hope we're going to sweep it under the rug and then the next big event is going to happen and they're going to do it all over again.
- [40:24]
Nick Viall
I think there's other options than continuing to do what you're doing, which is to over explain yourself to people who aren't interested in logic or cutting them off completely.
- [40:36]
Lauren
Yeah, so we have tried in the last year. We've found that setting boundaries with them out loud Just backfires because they just try to cross the boundary that we set.
- [40:47]
Nick Viall
Yeah.
- [40:48]
Lauren
So we've decided that setting quiet boundaries, where we agree on something but we don't communicate it to them, that that has worked better. Yeah. But that leads to them at an event, going around and telling everybody, like, we don't really talk to them, and they're left out, and they just want to be, like, involved grandparents. And so it's like, who are these.
- [41:12]
Nick Viall
People at these events that you're going to where they're talking shit about you guys?
- [41:17]
Lauren
It's extended family.
- [41:19]
Nick Viall
Like who?
- [41:20]
Lauren
My husband's family, but then some, like, aunts, cousins, uncles, and I guess my family. They drag my relatives into it. If they're there, which is really awkward.
- [41:31]
Nick Viall
Why do you care? And if it's so bad.
- [41:34]
Lauren
Yeah. Yeah.
- [41:36]
Nick Viall
Then, like, stop inviting him to these events.
- [41:40]
Lauren
And that's. That's how I feel. And I said that to my husband after the last. It was a really special day, and it was hard to feel like all the special moments in my life since I've met my husband are just overshadowed by all of this. And I said, they have a track record of behaving this way at major milestones and events, and so I don't want to invite them anymore. And he agrees in the moment, but then he has this hope that, like, I think there's still this, like, hope inside of him that he's working on squashing, but there's this hope that, like, they're gonna hear me. Or like he said recently, like, maybe one day when our child's in school, like, maybe my mom will be able to watch him, like, one day after school every week. And I'm like. I think he just holds on to hope that, like, he's gonna get through to them or. And it makes me sad to, like, to tell him that his parents can't come to, like, our big moments.
- [42:46]
Nick Viall
Definitely not an ideal situation. I think the biggest thing that I can think of while listening to you is in what you guys can control. Because obviously, this is a situation where you guys feel, like, kind of helpless, and you feel like you've tried everything, but what sounds like you haven't tried is to not give them the reaction they clearly seem to want, you know? And, yeah, you know, where you could probably get better. It's just like, all right, so it is tough to, like, not invite mom and dad to an event. Right. It's also, like, annoying that they would go and talk shit, but now you're kind of, like, waiting for it. You're listening for it. You know, they have a habit for it. You like you, you know, it's become this.
- [43:33]
Lauren
I sometimes feel like a record keeper at these things when I just want.
- [43:38]
Nick Viall
To be present and so be present like you. Yeah, you, you have to not give a. You, you have to be like, I married this guy. I love my husband. We have a beautiful child together. His parents drive me up the wall. I'm not their therapist. I can't possibly begin to figure out why they are the way they are. I hope it changes. I'm going to assume that it's not going to change. I don't know why they do this, but whatever. They're just going to invite the, like if, you know, like if it was your husband's brother or sister or whatever that was just like, you know, my husband's brother's a loser. I don't know. We got to invite him. It would probably be easier for you to accept because it's like, whatever. It's just like, I don't know, you know, one out of two ain't bad.
- [44:20]
Lauren
Yeah.
- [44:22]
Nick Viall
And you just kind of put up with it. And I think you give them a little bit more power because it is his parents, you know, But I think you and him in your husband. But definitely starts with you. You kind of have to get better at ignoring their behavior because it to me is, this sounds like they're acting out. They want to, like, attention seems to be their biggest consistency. We're not welcome. It's not, you know, it's, oh, the, the kid doesn't want to play with us. You're. They, they want to be the center of your son's universe. And when your son tries to grow up and push back silently or verbally, they, they throw a temper tantrum. And right now your son responds. He gives him their time. He does give them more attention. Every time they act out, they get more attention. When they go to parties and talk shit, they get attention. You give them attention. Your husband gives them attention. And, and you're, and you're like, why? Nothing works. But the thing is, you have to, you have to stop giving them the attention they so are aggressively pining for while still being like, I love you. And you just kind of have to, it's really, you guys have to remain calm. You can't react.
- [45:29]
Lauren
Yeah.
- [45:29]
Nick Viall
You can't. You just have to say like, you have to talk to them like a five year old in a way that's just like, yo, you can't act like that. And then if they start yelling at you and raising their voice and calling you names. You. Honestly, they're just, you look at them like they're five and just. You just. All right, well again, you just repeat yourself. Speaking to me that way isn't going to get us to where we need to go. You have to be really like non reactive, very neutral. When they raise their voice and scream at you and you get rattled and you are like, like, which is a normal response. You know, call you a name, it's going to be hurtful. Like that's, that's what they're trying to do, you know, so if you, it's frustrating. Yeah. And, and then you could just be like, listen, like if you want, if you want to have a close relationship with us and your grandchildren, that is entirely up to you guys. We would love that too. But it. To be on our terms. It is our kid, by the way. It's entirely up to you. We love you guys. It's just very matter of fact. And when they make accusations about like, oh, you're doing this and, but like, well, that's not. Listen, I'm sorry you feel that way. It's not how it is. But listen, I'm also just not going to take my time to explain it to you anymore. You, you really just have to like be very not what you're, what you're kind of doing all the wrong. It's a normal, it's like, hey, what anyone want to do. But you are reacting, you're getting frustrated, you get worked up. You just, you, you're listening for it. You're. And they have you right where they want you. Because what they have.
- [47:03]
Lauren
Funny you say that you give them.
- [47:05]
Nick Viall
Because you give them all this attention.
- [47:06]
Lauren
Yeah. The last time my husband had this phone call with them, I was not there and I was asking him how it went and he was like, I was on the phone with them for two hours. All I could think was you just reinforce all of that because they got two hours of your undivided attention. You have a child at home who wants your time and attention. You have a wife, you have dogs and they just took up two hours of your time talking about feelings and getting your undivided attention. And that was so reinforcing. So it's funny you say that because I've been dealing with.
- [47:45]
Nick Viall
Did he hear that?
- [47:46]
Lauren
He did. I kind of said to him, ignoring or like being like abrupt and like a matter of fact and then just like cutting off the conversation might be the way to go moving forward because I Feel like their behavior at that event was like, let's see if we can get a reaction. Like, how do you go around and tell people you're going to write us out of your will?
- [48:12]
Nick Viall
Let them rhetor you out of their will.
- [48:15]
Lauren
That's kind of what I felt. But so we have been kind of in a phase where we're trying to like, I mean I personally have, I've reached a limit for my own self. And just like on a personal note, my husband and I went through years of infertility before having our son, which congratulations by the way. I just saw your post yesterday. We want to grow our family and we will have to go through IVF again. And that was really hard for me the first time. And I just feel like we're not in a place right now to go through all of that. When my husband is. He's been at a low point, like having panic attacks and being depressed and coming to this point of accepting like parents for who they are so that he can respond more in the way that you're saying. And I want to support him through that. But at the same time I'm like, I need you selfishly to be in a stronger mindset for me because of like all I'm gonna have to go through. And so I, I at one point said I've, I've been very, I've kind of bit my tongue in terms of like demanding space from them because I feel like I don't want to be blamed for any distance. But after all of this happened recently, I said to him, like, it's a non negotiable for me right now that we take a break from them while you're having almost daily panic attacks and you can't focus at work physically. Like I worry about his blood pressure and it's all like this stress in his body. So I said to him, I put that limit in place and I said, it's not like no contact but just like we need some space right now. I need you to get better. And then a week later, family members were planning a get together and his go to was, well, I don't want to make my parents upset, so I guess we're going to go. So I feel this internal guilt of how much of a limit do I need to set with him versus is it my job to tell him to see or not see his parents? Do I need to be part of it if I'm going to be going through all of this in the near future?
- [50:32]
Nick Viall
It really comes down to, I think you and your husband using this as an opportunity to, like, reinforce your connection. And where you guys prioritize things like, listen, he cares about his relationship with his parents. That's a good thing. You know what I'm saying? You gotta try to see the positives. This is really just about managing drama and what really matters. You know, your. Your husband does have to get to a point where it's just like, this isn't healthy for me. And I'm glad I care about my parents being, you know, not being upset, but, like, I am not responsible for their feelings anymore. I'm an adult man. I got my own life, I got my own wife, I got my kid. I'm gonna always love my parents, and I'm always. Your husband needs to do his part and he needs to know what those healthy boundaries are. And as long as he knows he's involving his parents at a reasonable, like, again, what is reasonable is really up to you guys too. You know, there's no mandate of how much people are supposed to share their quality time in their family. And if you are two people who are just like, maybe more introverted or what, just like, enjoy your quality time alone with each other and you're not as social as other people are, then that's your prerogative. But, like, you guys have to be on the same page. That's what it comes down to. It's difficult when you have one set of standards and your husband has another set of standards, and you're wondering if your standards are right or if his standards are right. And, like, are you doing things are. By protecting your piece, are you upsetting his piece? That's where you guys have. Like, you're not going to be able to, like, figure his parents out, you know, like. But like, you guys is being comfortable with disappointing people in your circle because at the end of the day, it's about protecting your peace and your husband's peace and your child's peace and just your family's peace. And you're gonna check in with each other. You know, listen, like, sometimes when a couple gets, like, they become a team, you know, and it's really like kind of you kind of this us against the world mentality. Every once in a while, you guys, you know, couples can maybe take it a step too far where you. You become less patient with other people, maybe a little less empathetic for others. Sometimes it's okay to check in with each other, be like, you know, we. Maybe we should. Maybe we. We should take the time. Maybe we could do A little bit better. Right. But I'd rather. I'd rather challenge ourselves to think outside of the. The family rather than constantly always worry about all these other people. Cousins, aunts, uncles, parents, friends, whatever it. But you're never really making sure that you two are okay, you know, and that you guys feel secure with the expectations you have of each other. I mean, you know, like how you can't make everyone happy. At least make your partner happy and make your kids happy, make yourself happy and do what you can, certainly, to make those around you happy. But you have to know what's reasonable, what's healthy. Not everyone's going to understand your motives, you know, your intentions. Everyone sees the world through their own kind of main character lens. Certainly his parents have not adapted or grown up outside of, like, this is their family. And they raised these two kids, and those two kids were the center of their universe. At some point, your kid's gonna grow up, and it'll be a challenge for you and your husband to let go a little bit. Let them live their life, Let them make their choices. The. The roles will reverse. You will be a character in their world, in a way, because you will want to very much be a part of it. They will maybe meet someone. Maybe they'll have kids, or maybe, you know, their career will be super demanding and. And you're just hoping to be a part of it. Right? You know, and, like, you'll have to make that adjustment. They're having a hard time with that, but that's their journey. You two have to support each other and say, you're doing a good job. This is okay, you know, and support him. And when he, you know, like you said, oh, he feels alone. Well, that's. You guys should make each other feel less alone. We're doing things the right way, and sometimes it's difficult because we might support the. We might disappoint other people, People we. We don't want to disappoint people we love. But, you know, our priority isn't them right now. You. You don't have to explain yourselves to everyone. You just you and your husband. I think the biggest struggle you guys are having is you. You guys aren't on the same page with what you guys. How you guys want to handle this situation, and you guys need to support each other so that when you do feel a little guilty about setting a boundary, you guys are there to remind each other, this is okay. We're doing this for us. We're doing this for our family and our kids. And you are a good son and you're a good daughter and you're a great husband and you're an amazing dad and like, you know, just reinforce the things he needs. You know, he's, he's hearing other things. He's not good for his parents. Just be sure to let him know how much you appreciate him and what he is doing and vice versa with each other. And I think that will go a long way. And, and then you just have to just get better at when mom and dad are acting up to just honestly, you got to look at them like six year olds.
- [55:46]
Lauren
Yeah, that's really good advice. As you're talking, I think maybe part of why we're on different pages is I maybe hold back a lot of my feelings because I'm afraid to like, project my feelings onto him and then it ends up like I'm not being.
- [56:08]
Nick Viall
Totally forthright, but focus less about your feelings about how you feel about his parents and just focus more on your feelings about how you feel about him and each other and what you guys need to do to be present for your kids. You're both spending way too much energy on his parents and how you guys feel about his parents and you need to stop, stop that. You know, it's just like, yeah, I mean, I get it. You don't want to tell your, your husband not to talk to his. It's just more like, listen, can we both agree that your parents, they're a lot. And they, they just demand a lot of attention and quite frankly, we give that. We both give them too much. And you, yeah, you guys need to get on the same page about not investing so much attention into them. And it's a lot easier to just go to these events and go to these parties and expect that his parents to just do whatever they do and not react to them. And, and, and your response be like, it was nice to see you. I love you.
- [57:03]
Lauren
I feel like a little frustrated at myself for spending my son's first year of life letting so much of this like, take up mental energy.
- [57:15]
Nick Viall
Yeah.
- [57:16]
Lauren
And not to say that I don't love, like being a mom is the absolute best of course ever happened to me. And that's that I found that times, this heartbeat be fully present when.
- [57:26]
Nick Viall
Well, I don't want to say use.
- [57:27]
Lauren
Your keeping everybody else.
- [57:29]
Nick Viall
I don't want to say use your kid. But like, yeah, you and your husband should remind yourselves that your child is the most important thing right now and, and, and be grateful that you have them and use them as a reminder of the things that truly matter. And the rest will work itself out. Don't meet their level of anger and resentment, you know, Meet them with love. Yeah. I love you. Thank you. Definitely. You know, it's nice to see you. I'm sorry you're upset, you know, see you next time. I'm probably be the same. But hey, you know, like, you know, don't give them the. Don't. They're egging you on for attention, you know, and if you don't want to give.
- [58:06]
Lauren
Sound like my dad when you're talking. My dad has that. That strength to like you do too. It's the high road, in a sense. I know. I. I have to believe that. I. It. It's all about your mindset, for sure. So.
- [58:21]
Nick Viall
All right.
- [58:21]
Lauren
I think I can work on that.
- [58:22]
Nick Viall
Okay.
- [58:23]
Lauren
Thank you. Can I ask you one more question before we go?
- [58:26]
Yvonne
Absolutely.
- [58:26]
Lauren
Do you think it's reasonable for me to exclude myself from future gatherings if I feel like reasonable. Able to do that?
- [58:39]
Nick Viall
Is it reasonable? Sure. You just have to ask yourself, is this actually making the situation better?
- [58:45]
Lauren
I know. Yeah.
- [58:47]
Nick Viall
Would it. Would a better. I mean, you know, and listen, if, If. If your mental health.
- [58:51]
Lauren
Protecting my piece versus like protecting their peace, though. Do you know what I mean?
- [58:57]
Nick Viall
Maybe. But are you going to be. But you. You have to be really honest. I guess my answer is you have to be really honest with yourself. Right? Because part of this whole scenario is trying to figure out the balance of just like, you know, it's like what a marriage is. Right. A marriage is always this constant juggling of making sure your needs are prioritized while selflessly stepping up at the times when your partner needs you in a way that if you were single, you would just do your own thing. Right? So that con. And this is a part of that equation. Right. So you really have to be honest with yourself is not showing up. In the long run, it might. Maybe it might bring you more peace. But you also might be spending the whole time alone wondering what everyone's saying about you when you're not there. And then your husband will get home and he will download that information to you while simultaneously really feeling alone because his wife literally didn't show up while his parents talked their shit about him and you and whatever. And it's just like.
- [60:04]
Lauren
Yeah.
- [60:04]
Nick Viall
As opposed to, like, you. It's like what you and your husband need to do is on the way to that trip, you hold each other's hand and you say, I love you. And you're like, I love you and I'M like, I'm so grateful that I have you as my husband, and I'm so great that I have you as my wife. And I love. This is going to be wacky and wild and who knows what they're going to say? But you know what? We're going to leave husband and wife, and we have each other and that's all that really matters. And, like, let's just go have some fun and let's get crazy and like, whatever, we'll be fine. Everyone can be mad at us or no one can be mad at us, but we have each other, and that's the shit you guys need to do. And we're gonna ignore the drama. And when they. We're not gonna listen to see if they're talking, it doesn't make any difference. You know, your dad has your back. Your parents know how. I'm sure they've heard the stories about your in laws. Like, you don't need to, like, spend all this energy convincing them. So, like, yeah, listen, if you really need to protect your piece, by all means. But, like, you really need to ask yourself, is that actually doing the thing I'm telling myself it's doing? And is that, you know, am I actually accomplishing what I want to accomplish?
- [61:10]
Lauren
Yes, I. That is what I needed to hear. I think so. Thank you.
- [61:15]
Nick Viall
Okay. All right, well, keep us posted.
- [61:17]
Lauren
I will.
- [61:18]
Nick Viall
All right, take care.
- [61:19]
Lauren
Thank you, Nick.
- [61:20]
Nick Viall
All right, bye.
- [61:20]
Lauren
Take care.
- [61:22]
Nick Viall
How's it going?
- [61:23]
Yvonne
Hi, I'm Yvonne. I'm 22. And. Why do I trust myself to leave unhealthy relationships but struggle to protect myself when I'm single and dating?
- [61:32]
Nick Viall
Say that one more time so I understand.
- [61:34]
Yvonne
Why do I trust myself to leave unhealthy relationships but struggle to protect myself when I'm single and dating?
- [61:43]
Nick Viall
Explain the latter.
- [61:45]
Yvonne
Okay, so I feel like I've slowly given my power away with men, and it just kind of is freaking me out because that's not who I used to be. I used to be very independent and very protective of my peace and not someone who easily gave access to men who didn't deserve it. And I've just noticed a pattern in my life. I'll continuously go back to guys that have already done me wrong, even though I already know the outcome.
- [62:16]
Nick Viall
Give me example of these situations. Like, it's like, oh, this is a guy I hooked up with and then he didn't call me for like three weeks and then he reached out and something like that kind of stuff.
- [62:30]
Yvonne
All right, so for more background, I had gotten out of a long term relationship in college. I recently graduated in May, but I was in a relationship pretty much all of college until my senior year and I realized it was over. Well, one, he was very controlling and toxic and all that good stuff. But I was very envious of my single friends. So when I got out of that relationship, I really leaned hard into the college culture and situationships and getting into connections with guys that I knew weren't good for me or guys that had already shown me that they're not good for me or that they don't want the same thing that I want. But I still kept choosing that instead of checking in with myself and being like, okay, we don't want the same thing.
- [63:19]
Nick Viall
So what, what exactly are you choosing? Like, how, how are you, like grabbing drinks with these guys? Are you hooking up with them? Like, what's the thing that's causing you to feel like you are giving these men too much access as opposed to just having the mindset of, like you said, I mean, you, you left a relationship, right, that you felt like, didn't serve you. Not to mention that, like, I'm not sure how old you feel, but you must obviously recognize that you're relatively early in your adult life, right? You just graduated college, got some yolo, you know, you, it's, you know, this is it, you know. And so part of your calculus of ending that relationship, in addition to it, like being a little toxic and not serving you, is like you wanted to have some of that independence and that, you know, empowering feeling, right? And, and some of that like, like feeling empowered, I guess on some level is the choice to be able to pick and choose who we let in, who we, you know, how, you know, the people you decide to give a little power to, I guess in a way, right, that's. You get to choose, you know, sometimes we make bad choices, but I guess the question is like, what is at stake in these situations? And what do you think is the thing that's causing you to feel regret? Because ultimately that's kind of what you're talking about is just like, all right, I hung out with Matt. I kind of knew Matt was a fuckboy, but I hung out with him anyways. And wouldn't you know it, Matt showed me and reminded me that he is in fact a fuckboy. Which, fine, but like, what, in that scenario, what, what is, what are you losing that you can't get back?
- [65:06]
Yvonne
Well, I think that's what I'm struggling with is knowing. I guess I'm losing my self Respect. And I know I can get that back, but it's like it's become a pattern and just almost like a cycle of, okay, this guy did me wrong and then I gave him another chance. And then this guy did me wrong and I gave him another chance. It's like, why do I keep going back to places that didn't serve me and have already proved to me that. That we don't align?
- [65:32]
Nick Viall
So what is the. What when you say another chance? Can you give me. Do you have a time that you remember?
- [65:39]
Yvonne
Okay. Well, there were two situations that happened recently. So lately I've just one been doing a lot of reflecting on my senior year because it was so different than the beginning of college with being in a relationship and then going full force single. So there was someone that I was previously with in college and we were kind of seeing each other and then all of a sudden that ended because I guess he heard something from someone about my friend, but never gave me the respect or the time to tell my side and to tell the truth. So that ultimately ended. And then shortly after, he started dating someone else. So I was like, okay, whatever, that's fine, I'll move on. So about a month ago, we ran into each other at a bar and started talking. Things progressed. He told me everything I wanted to hear. And then shortly after, he completely stopped talking to me just because I. So I really am a relationship person and I want to be in a relationship. He was acting as if it was actually going to go somewhere and that we'll try again and that this will be good. And.
- [66:52]
Nick Viall
What about the thing that caused him to. To. To shut you off in the first place where it sounded like he made assumptions about you, didn't give you the time of day, and just like you felt like he ended things prematurely?
- [67:07]
Yvonne
Yeah.
- [67:07]
Nick Viall
Did he address that?
- [67:09]
Yvonne
So that was. We talked about it and he finally let me tell my side. But he, I mean, he admitted that he was in the wrong. So again, he just kind of told me everything I wanted to hear. He admitted that he was in the wrong for the past situation, that he regretted it, that it would be better that we could try again, that it would be relationship, all this stuff. And then within two days, I didn't hear from him again.
- [67:36]
Nick Viall
Okay. And that told you what?
- [67:38]
Yvonne
It just. I was upset that I even let him back in and to have access to me when he had already shown me that.
- [67:45]
Nick Viall
And what access? Just to be clear, what was that access that you gave us up?
- [67:51]
Yvonne
Well, we had hooked up and just, okay, I Don't know. My attention again.
- [67:57]
Nick Viall
All right, so, like, you. It was more than a conversation. You guys hooked up and.
- [68:01]
Yvonne
Yeah. Yes.
- [68:02]
Nick Viall
All right, so. And I'm guessing the hooking up part was the part that really bothered you the most.
- [68:07]
Yvonne
Yes.
- [68:08]
Lucy
Okay.
- [68:08]
Yvonne
I. Yeah, I couldn't really, after he had stopped talking to me after our conversation and everything and what had happened, I just really was beating myself up more so about hooking up with him and then.
- [68:20]
Nick Viall
Yeah, because, like, it sounds like if nothing, if you would have ran into him, had this conversation that you had where he said all the right things and. And you were like, okay, well, let's see where it goes. But didn't hook up, ended the night maybe with a kiss, and then you didn't hear from him, you would probably would have felt less frustrated with yourself or. Right. Right. Is that accurate?
- [68:44]
Yvonne
Yeah.
- [68:44]
Nick Viall
So in that regard, maybe. Maybe just the only real tweak you need to make is while you're out there dating and figuring these. This landscape out and getting to know these guys, you know, protect your peace a little bit by, you know, maybe waiting on the physical side only again, not because you should or it's. It's not the right. You know, it's just like, you have learned, like, part of this experience. You have learned that while everyone's different for you, it's harder for you to participate in hookup culture without it, like, having at least some potential. You made a decision, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to put words in your mouth that obviously you probably found him attractive and you probably weren't delusional that, like, oh, my God, we're going to get married. But your reasoning for hooking up with this guy was based off of a conversation that had some promise of potential. And it was. It wasn't just like, hey, you want to talk tonight? And you were like, sure, I got. I got nothing going on. Like, that's not what you were looking for. And whether you were right or wrong, but that's how you. That's why you made that decision. Am I right?
- [69:58]
Yvonne
Yeah.
- [69:59]
Nick Viall
Right. And so, like, this is just a lesson that people, and especially young men, you know, it's probably a spectrum of, you know, maybe he's just a total piece of shit who really knew he was just saying the right thing because he wanted to get laid or he. He really felt bad, and, you know, he does want to settle down someday. And then you guys had a nice conversation, you hooked up. And then after you hooked up, he realized, yeah, I Don't know. Maybe I don't. I don't know if I really want this anymore. Is that unfair? Is it wrong? Do we hate guys? I guess. I don't know. But, like, that is a fairly typical hookup culture story, so to speak.
- [70:40]
Yvonne
Yeah.
- [70:40]
Nick Viall
And so. Well, go ahead.
- [70:42]
Yvonne
So shortly after that, this one's, I guess, more reflective of what I'm asking you. An ex came back into my life. I guess you could say X. Very loosely. We had started seeing each other my sophomore year of high school, school in his senior year. So then he started going, oh, well, I don't know if, like, I'm about to go to college. You're still going to be in high school. This is going to work out. So then I was like, okay, obviously I was hurt, but what am I going to do? And then he gets to college, I'm ending high school. He comes back around and then ends it for the same reason. Well, I'm still in college, you're still in high school, blah, blah, blah. And it just has progressed up until now. Like, he. When I went to college and he was ending college, oh, it's not going to work out. He graduated. I was still in, not going to work out. It was just the same thing over and over again. But I kept going back to that hope of, okay, maybe this time it'll work out. So over the summer, I had ran into him at a bar. Same thing kind of happened. We started talking. He was acting like it was going to work out. And then his new excuse was, he has an apartment, I still live at home, so it's not going to work out. And then, I mean, God forbid. But. So about a month ago, or no, a few weeks ago, he had reached out, started talking. We went on a date. Same kind of conversation, implying that this was gonna go forward. Now we're both out of school, we both have jobs, we're both back home, whatever. And then again, within like, maybe two days, he pulled back again and was like, I don't think I'm ready for this. But this has been going on for a long time, and I don't know why I keep going back. And I'm like, okay, well, maybe this time when he has shown me time and time again that this is definitely not something he wants.
- [72:34]
Nick Viall
Ego a little bit. I mean, what I'm hearing from you is when. And it's pretty typical when someone dangles a carrot, you kind of lose a little perspective and you lose a little focus. And that part of you that says, oh, I. I lose Myself or I get, you know, I'm not respecting myself. It's probably the realization when. When after, you know, it ends, or he does the same thing over and over again, you realize that you were just chasing a feeling. You were chasing that validation. You know, it's just like since high school, this guy's been dangling this carrot, and I'm. And I'm. My dumb ass just keeps like, you know, wanting that carrot. And you probably like the way you tell this story. You don't talk about him, period. You're. You're not. It's like, the only thing I know about this guy is he's been in your life since high school. And he's always said, maybe that's it. That's the whole story. And you're not talking about how he treats you, how he makes you feel, what he looks like. It's just like, are the. How much you have in common, your compatibility, it's solely based off of him picking you, choosing you. You know, that validation that finally you're enough. Right? Again, that's a very common feeling that many of us all felt. And so that's probably. You're. That the feeling you're feeling is that frustration that you should have known better and you're having a hard time figuring out why you do that. It's ego. It's again, like, as you get older and not to sound like the older guy talk, you know, in 22, but, like, listen like a lot. A lot of what you're talking about is growing pains. And the thing that you have going for you is that, like, you are pro. You. You are reflecting at this early stage in your life, none of which has really caused you, like, any real harm, it's some frustrations for sure. But whether it's like it. Whether it's being a little too physical too early in a relationship, when you realize that, like, I'm not the hookup type of person and I need some kind of, like, you know, like, we may end up not liking each other. But you have in the past, you've made a decision to get physical after one conversation with someone. And then when it doesn't play out the way you want, you're just. It feels. You feel silly, you know, because you're like, why would I. Off of one conversation, I decided to, like, be this accessible to this person. And then. So you're frustrated, you know, so you can learn from that. And then that other, you know, this last story is just like, be more mindful of checking in of, like, why do I want this so bad. And when. When the answer is because they're. They're offering me a chance to validate me, but like. Or they're. When. If they're dangling a carrot and you just want to be picked, then you. Then it's just a reminder to maybe slow down a little bit, to not get so ahead of yourself.
- [75:25]
Yvonne
Yeah.
- [75:26]
Nick Viall
I mean, this. The way you tell that story, it's like it really didn't matter who he was, his personality. You just finally wanted to prove to yourself that this should actually give you a chance because, like, he's stupid to not.
- [75:38]
Lauren
Yeah.
- [75:39]
Yvonne
You know, that doesn't make sense.
- [75:41]
Nick Viall
It's a. It's a lot of ego.
- [75:43]
Yvonne
And like, we had the connection or whatever. In high school, he was like the star baseball. I was on the soccer team, whatever. It just, like, fit.
- [75:52]
Nick Viall
Yeah.
- [75:53]
Yvonne
And then it just. I. I think I realized that it wasn't gonna fit. And some. Even sometimes after hanging out with him, I was like, I don't if I really like him anymore. But then I still would, like, want that validation from him that he was still wanting or interested in me.
- [76:13]
Nick Viall
Yeah.
- [76:14]
Yvonne
I always thought each time he was gonna fully commit, and it never happened.
- [76:19]
Nick Viall
Yeah. I mean, a lot of. Again, a lot of what you're describing is growing pains. Like you said, you prefer to be in relationships. Like, that's something, you know, you've done the single thing, you've done the relationship thing. All things being equal, you like the relationship world better. Right. But also getting older and maturing is to. Despite knowing that you prefer the relationship, knowing that, like, right now, there's not a relationship that serves me, and I'd rather be single and alone with my friends rather than with someone that, like, doesn't ultimately make me happy. And then getting comfortable in that timeframe and then, you know, trying things out, you know, like, you have so much different things to try out. So also just like, give yourself some grace. Like, you. You need to make. You gotta. You have to make mistakes to learn. I mean, listen, life would be a lot easier if we learn from other people's mistakes, but we. We don't do that.
- [77:11]
Yvonne
Yeah.
- [77:12]
Nick Viall
Most of the time. And sometimes we just have to up a little bit. But, like, the. The trick is to not fuck up multiple times. Right. Now that you. You gave me two different scenarios of when these guys made you feel a certain way. Mostly based off of ego. Right. Like, in both these scenarios, all it took is a guy to communicate a little bit of regret in rejecting you. For you to be like, what do you need from me? I'm all yours, you know?
- [77:41]
Yvonne
Yeah.
- [77:42]
Nick Viall
And so just be mindful of that. That, like. And it's really just that ego saying, wanting to prove to you that, like, yeah, see, we were right.
- [77:50]
Yvonne
Well, and it's just hard too, because I. I used to check in with myself and protect myself and not commit or hang out with these guys that have already done me wrong, but I. I've been lacking that, that I no longer really check in with myself. And I think that's what hurts me more than the guys not choosing me. It's more so that I did it again and I wasn't checking in with myself.
- [78:14]
Nick Viall
Yeah, well, part of it is just like, maybe slowing down too, Right. Both of the, Both of these scenarios, like, had a. Had a conversation where you found them to be really convincing. And after those conversations, it changed your mindset, right? Like, and that mindset was, oh, this is gonna happen now, or they regret rejecting me or whatever it is. And that's all it took was one conversation. In the, in the future, you could have a conversation where it says, like, that was a really promising conversation. They said a lot of the right things. They even seem like they mean it. But, like, we'll see. Let's. We'll see. And I think you can have a will see attitude after promising conversations, and you can kind of check your ego and say, hey, ego, like, I know you. I know you really want to be right. I know you've been waiting for this moment to be right, but, like, we don't know yet. And so let's. Let's just see. And that's that checking in part that you're not doing right away, you. You. You get disappointed, and then you're like, oh, fuck, I should have. I should have done that. So again, I don't think you're being a little hard on yourself. I think these are, again, growing pains. They're just kind of reminders that, like. And again, partly, you. You are gonna have to take some risks on people. You know, you don't want to be the person who's so closed off and so fixated and not being hurt and. And having so much self respect that you don't get a little. Yeah, take some risks and, you know, people are gonna disappoint you, and then you just learn, you know, it's just like, you know, life will go on, you know? But yeah, I think maybe just.
- [79:47]
Yvonne
I definitely. I don't know. I don't want to become hardened. I just want to become discerning. Again, because I used to really. I think that's what's just such the shock to me is because again, like most of college, I had been in relationships up until that last semester of senior year. And then I really leaned into the single life and it definitely hurt me more than it helped me. And I definitely, I realized that I'm not for the hookup culture. So if anything I learned from that. But again, it's more so like the disappointment in myself of going back to these guys that have already shown me.
- [80:25]
Nick Viall
I think that's the part you can kind of get over yourself a little bit and give yourself a little bit of grace and you're going to make some mistakes that you're going to make a lot of mistakes where you're like, why did I do that? These are relatively harmless ones because the only thing you hurt was your ego, which was your ego thought it was right for a moment. Made a rash decision off of this immediate like, hey, we were right, only to realize you were wrong. And that is a, it's a motherfucker to the ego. That was the only, you know, you didn't hurt anyone, it didn't cost you anything. There was no long term, just a little bruised ego. And that's a really great time to learn valuable lessons because you can definitely get over that.
- [81:03]
Yvonne
Yeah.
- [81:04]
Nick Viall
You know, so don't be so hard on yourself and yeah, slow down a little bit. It and, and don't be such a sucker for one good conversation.
- [81:15]
Yvonne
Okay, I could do that. I'll start, I'll do that.
- [81:18]
Nick Viall
Yeah. And like sometimes it's okay to remind yourself, like when you get rejected by someone, have the, have the self awareness that that person immediately has the potential to have power over me.
- [81:32]
Yvonne
Yeah.
- [81:32]
Nick Viall
And if, if I can at least identify that then I can be more in tuned with, with how I'm responding to this person. And then I'll get some of my power back by just acknowledging organically this person rejecting me makes my ego want to like pine for their attention and affection and therefore they have this power. And just having that self awareness will go a long way just to acknowledge it happened, this happened, that makes me vulnerable. Okay, now I'm aware, then you can ask yourself more questions. But when you pretend that's not the case, you know, and you're. All you're telling yourself is they just don't know better yet. And I'm gonna go in to convince them that I'm good enough.
- [82:16]
Yvonne
Yeah.
- [82:16]
Nick Viall
When it, when you were in high school and they were in college, you're like, but I'm, you know, it's always been about like, but I'm mature for my age. I'm not like their other girls. I'm not like, you know, I'm, you know. And you most your energy was trying to convince yourself and him of that narrative. Narrative?
- [82:32]
Yvonne
Yeah.
- [82:33]
Nick Viall
What you weren't asking, is he good enough for me? Why am I, why am I, why am I trying to prove myself to this guy? Like, if he can't see it, then fine. I don't know, like, whatever. Maybe it's just an excuse, you know, but again, it takes some practice.
- [82:45]
Yvonne
So I think that's what's more disappointing is like I said, how even sometimes after hanging out with him, I was like, I don't really think I like him anymore. But then it was still that. No, I want to see if he would actually commit this time.
- [82:58]
Nick Viall
Yeah, well, ego, it won't be the last time. Your ego, your ego doesn't really prioritize what's best for you. It prioritize what it wants in the moment. So being more self aware about that and slowing down is all you can do. But that desire never goes away.
- [83:17]
Yvonne
Okay, well, thank you.
- [83:19]
Nick Viall
No problem. Give yourself, give yourself some grace. You're doing all right.
- [83:23]
Yvonne
Okay, thank you.
- [83:24]
Nick Viall
All right.
- [83:25]
Yvonne
I appreciate it.
- [83:26]
Nick Viall
All right, talk to you later.
- [83:27]
Yvonne
Okay, bye.
- [83:28]
Nick Viall
Bye.
- [83:29]
Lucy
You're crazy.
- [83:43]
Nick Viall
What's up, everybody? We have a very exciting announcement for all the Ass Nick audience out there. We have new Instagram and Tiktoks specifically for Ask Nick. So if you want to avoid all the pop culture and reality TV content that we're putting out there and just focus on all things relationships, dating, interpersonal relationships, and just Ask Nick content. Just please give us a follow. It's Asknick Viall on Instagram and TikTok. So give us a follow and enjoy. We'll be glad that you did. All right, let's get to our first caller, but not before you go on and give us a follow.