E1086 Ask Nick - My Husband Kisses Other Women for Work

Summary

THE VIALL FILES: Episode 1086 "Ask Nick – My Husband Kisses Other Women For Work" Release Date: March 2, 2026
Host: Nick Viall
Featuring: Natalie Joy & "The Household"

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EPISODE OVERVIEW
This episode of The Viall Files centers on relationship dilemmas, with Nick Viall giving listeners practical, nuanced advice. Topics include navigating boundaries when your partner is an actor in romantic scenes, handling love triangles and exclusivity confusion, and managing a parent's interference in your marriage. The signature style is candid, empathetic, and sometimes blunt—Nick offers both validation and challenges to callers, striving to help them build honesty, confidence, and relationship health.

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CALL #1: Navigating Marital Boundaries When Your Actor Husband Kisses Others for Work
(Starts ~02:06)

Main Discussion Points & Advice

Background

• Kayleigh, 34, married for five years, together for nine.
• Husband recently transitioned from professional modeling to acting, landing several leading roles with on-screen intimacy.
• She struggles with the emotional impact of seeing her husband kiss other women for work.
• They’ve had numerous conversations trying to navigate boundaries, transparency, and her discomfort.

Insights & Challenges

• Nick acknowledges the situation is tough and encourages honest, ongoing communication.
• He references the pressure actors feel to promote chemistry and how "smoke and mirrors" for the audience doesn't always change the reality for partners.
• Kayleigh feels a sense of loss for the exclusivity of her husband's body and struggles to separate the personal from the professional.

“That sacredness that we had getting married kind of got stolen from me… My husband’s body isn’t just for me, it’s going to be used with another woman.” —Kayleigh (05:07)

• Nick discusses how awkward on-screen intimacy can be for actors:

  “How unromantic it was and how it felt like licking an elbow.” (07:14)

• Acknowledges the potential for on-set romance, referencing Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, but notes most scenes are professional and uncomfortable rather than intimate.
• Suggested couple’s therapy as a proactive measure—even a few sessions—to facilitate hard conversations and create a safe, guided space for both partners.

Boundaries & Security

• Kayleigh’s request: After projects end, limit ongoing contact with female co-stars, especially DMs and inside jokes.
• Husband pushes back, noting that conversations are professional and sometimes initiated by co-stars.
• Kayleigh sets specific boundaries around the kinds of kissing allowed ("no tongue" rule) and no genital contact.
• Nick explores why her husband resists boundaries:

  “Why he can’t honor that? …If the project’s done, what is he trying to do?” (12:56)

• Issue of maintaining work-only relationships post-project, as some professional interactions may blur lines.
• Kayleigh describes an incident where her husband discussed a potentially more sexual script with a female co-star. She was upset, wishing those conversations happened with her or his agent, not the co-star.

Communication Dynamics & Triggers

• Both Kayleigh and her husband are often triggered, and Kayleigh admits her delivery can come off as an attack:

  “I think I fuck up because the way I approach him comes off as an attack.” (17:10)

• Nick points out the importance of approach:

  “How you start a conversation, an argument goes a long way… It’s just really hard to do, you know, in the future.” (18:56)

• Advocates expressing vulnerability ("that made me a little uncomfortable, can we talk about it?") instead of accusation ("that’s fucked up").

Reframing & Trust

• Nick encourages Kayleigh to focus on her husband’s professionalism and history of respecting their marriage:

  “What you can probably do to help yourself is to lean on that…here you just spent the past minute or two describing how your husband carries himself throughout the world in public, around other women. Very self-aware.” (22:28)

• Suggests her husband can reinforce security by referencing his wife in work-related interactions.

  “What if he replied something like, ‘Yeah, I’m considering it too. Obviously, I have to talk to my wife about this.’” —Nick (30:39)
  “That would, like, go far for me emotionally.” —Kayleigh (31:51)

• Calls for finding small, even “petty” asks that her husband can honor simply to reinforce that sense of partnership.

Past Trauma vs. Present Insecurity

• Kayleigh wonders if her feelings are driven by past emotionally abusive relationships. Nick reassures her feelings are valid given the circumstances, and that delivery—not her boundaries themselves—is the main issue.

Watching Intimate Scenes

• Kayleigh debates whether to watch her husband's intimate scenes.

  “It sounds to me like maybe you shouldn’t watch that stuff because it’s only gonna play with your brain and play with your insecurities.” —Nick (35:09)

Notable Quotes & Advice

• “If you trust your husband…remind yourself that’s who you married and that’s who he is.” —Nick (37:06)
• “If you start a conversation with the wrong energy and intensity…that’s where you feel more disconnected.” —Nick (39:45)
• Couples therapy is strongly encouraged as a means of safe communication and emotional mediation.

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CALL #2: Love Triangle & Confusion Over Exclusivity
(Starts ~45:33)

Main Discussion Points & Advice

Background

• Ally, 23, in a complicated love triangle after a three-year college relationship ended.
• Started seeing “Guy A” (a new flame) and “Guy B” (a friend in her apartment complex) at the same time, after Guy A briefly broke things off.
• Navigates dating both while unclear about exclusivity and admits to hiding timelines from both men.

Insights & Challenges

• Nick emphasizes the importance of honesty and standing in one’s power:

  “Never apologize for being desired or pursued as a single person.” (48:44)

• Points out Ally didn’t owe Guy A anything after he ended things, and missed an opportunity to own her autonomy.
• Advises Ally to clarify her own feelings first, and not “apologize for doing nothing wrong”—but encourages transparency to prevent confusion.
• If physical with a partner, always disclose if you’re seeing others for safe sex reasons.

Navigating the Triangle

• Nick suggests Ally initiate honest conversations with both men, explaining her timeline and why she hasn’t previously disclosed the overlap.
• Stresses the value of evaluating how each man responds to honesty and boundaries as a test of their long-term suitability.
• Proposes that Guy B may need encouragement to make a move, and being open about the situation could propel things forward.
• Challenges the necessity for immediate decision—suggests Ally let things play out while remaining honest:

  “You have the right to date both these guys… You don’t need permission to hang out with other people.” (68:24)

• Encourages using the responses from both men to clarify her own desires and further decision-making.

Notable Advice

• “If you handle it this way, there’s a good chance the decision will be made for you and you’ll get clarity.” —Nick (69:42)

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CALL #3: “My Mom Hates My Husband and Wants Me To Divorce Him”
(Starts ~73:16)

Main Discussion Points & Advice

Background

• Grace, 26, married to her high school sweetheart, now with children.
• Her mother disapproves due to husband’s family background (parents were addicts) and fears Grace will repeat her own mistakes.
• Mother is frequently negative about her marriage, even after children, and has explicitly told Grace to leave him.
• Ongoing conflict has reshaped Grace’s view of her mom, yet mom still wants to spend time with the family.

Insights & Challenges

• Nick affirms that the caller is in the power position and must prioritize her marital family above pleasing her mother.
• Advocates having a direct, boundaries-based conversation:

  “You are in the driver’s seat here, whether that feels like it or not…you have to protect your husband and your family.” (82:32, 83:43)

• Suggests leading with appreciation, but being firm:

  “You don’t have to like it, but I do need you to respect it if you want to have a relationship with us.” (83:44)

• Encourages refusing to discuss or defend her marriage; conversations are not debates, and discussing boundaries is not a request for approval.
• Advises against stooping to the mother’s level or getting drawn into her projections or temper tantrums.
• Suggests offering what is feasible in the mother/daughter relationship but refusing to tolerate disrespect to her husband or marriage.
• Skeptical about joint sit-downs (husband, mother, and caller)—this is Grace’s battle to fight, not her husband's.

Notable Quotes & Approaches

• “If she says things like ‘well that’s not what I meant,’ be like, mom…you literally have told me to leave him. I don’t even need an apology, but your actions need to change.” —Nick (89:31)
• “It’s really about you and your mom’s relationship…setting new expectations and boundaries.” (94:20)
• Ends with a reminder to always check in with her husband and only facilitate direct conversation with him and her mother if he specifically wants it.

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MEMORABLE MOMENTS & QUOTES

• “It felt like licking an elbow.” —Nick (07:14, on how unromantic staged intimacy is for actors)
• Caller Kayleigh: “I fuck up because the way I approach him comes off as an attack.” (17:10)
• “I like that my husband makes women feel this way. It’s nothing more than how I’ve seen my husband operate when I’m with him.” —Nick (24:44)
• “Never apologize for being desired or pursued as a single person.” —Nick (48:44)
• “The goal isn’t to get her to apologize. The goal is to get her to change her behavior whether she likes it or not.” —Nick (83:43)
• “I’m not going to debate with you. I’m telling you what I need.” —Nick (89:31)

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TAKEAWAYS

1. Open Communication is Essential
   Address sensitive situations quickly, with vulnerability and clarity. Avoid sweeping feelings under the rug.
2. Boundaries Matter—And Delivery Counts
   Ask for what you need, but do so calmly and without accusation. Approach matters as much as content.
3. Own Your Agency
   You do not owe apologies for living your life authentically, seeking new connections, or drawing healthy boundaries.
4. Reframe Insecurity with Trust & Evidence
   Lean on your partner’s established character and give them the opportunity to support your needs—even if they seem “petty.”
5. Family Dynamics Require Authority
   As an adult, you must set the terms with critical or manipulative parents to protect your marriage and family tranquility.
6. Honesty with Suitors (and Yourself) Pays Dividends
   It’s better to be honest—even if belatedly—than to hide information and lose empowerment in dating.
7. Lean on Therapy When Needed
   Safe, guided conversations can help couples tackle topics that trigger strong emotions or feel intractable.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In This episode is an honest, empathetic, and sometimes tough-love guide for tackling real relationship dilemmas—romantic or familial—with clarity and boundaries. Nick Viall’s advice balances validation with challenge, empowering listeners to stand in their truth, communicate better, and set necessary boundaries for healthier connections.

Transcript

[Caller]

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[Nick Viall]

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[Caller]

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Don't forget Vile Files plus now offers ad free episodes for all Vile Files episodes, including Ask Nick Reality Recap and Going Deeper. Plus, if you love Ask Nick, you will absolutely love our Ask Nick updates, where you get updates of your favorite calls, our deep dive on all your favorite reality recap TV shows, and our pop culture roundup where we talk about all your favorite pop culture culture topics that we didn't get to in this week's episode. Plus Deep dives on our Going Deeper guest, and so much more. All you have to do is go to Vi Files plus and you will be lucky you did. What's up, everybody? We have a very exciting announcement for all the Ask Nick audience out there. We have new Instagram and TikToks specifically for Ask Nick. So if you want to avoid all the pop culture and reality TV content that we're putting out there and just focus on all things relationship, dating, dating, interpersonal relationships, and just Ask Nick content, just please give us a follow. It's Asknick Viall on Instagram and TikTok. So give us a follow and enjoy. We'll be glad that you did. All right, let's get to our first caller, but not before you go on and give us a follow.

[Caller Kayleigh]

You're crazy.

[Nick Viall]

How's it going?

[Caller Kayleigh]

Good. I'm Kayleigh, I'm 34, and I'm trying to figure out how to navigate my husband kissing other women for work.

[Nick Viall]

Okay. I'm assuming he's an actor.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yes.

[Caller]

Okay. Correct.

[Nick Viall]

I guess just tell me about the relationship.

[Caller Kayleigh]

So we've been together nine years, married for five. He got into this space last year. So when we met, he always wanted to pursue acting. He was a professional model. That was his. His bread and butter.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Caller Kayleigh]

So that was always his. His big dream was to just do movies. So finally, at this point in our marriage, like I said, last year, he finally got into it and made a break. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of where we're at right now.

[Nick Viall]

I think a lot of people listening have imagined how someone like you does it. Right. In fact, you know, my Natalie and I were the new. The new Jacob Elordi and Margot.

[Caller Kayleigh]

I heard you guys on the podcast talking about it, what, like two days ago, I was like, oh my gosh, the timing of that.

[Caller Ally]

That's.

[Nick Viall]

Or just like, how do they do it? You know, it's like they really. Yeah. So you heard that episode and it's just like.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah, I was like kind of giggling to myself listening to it, you know,

[Nick Viall]

because you really got to have some thick skin, you know, not so much even in the movies, but when they promote these movies and to really lean into the on screen chemistry that, you know, they want the audience to have and things like that. And it must be very, very difficult. So I, I guess I'm curious. Like, you know, your, your relationship started when he was a model and wasn't acting. You were aware of his dreams, so that's all valid. Now he's got this break and I imagine, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but like, at first it probably thought like, as something you might not have to worry about, not that you didn't believe in your husband, but it's like, as, you know, it's like it's a tough business to break into and et cetera, et cetera. And I'm assuming like his first role like required him to kiss someone.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah. And he actually, for modeling, he's done, he's done kissing before for like, like jewelry brands, you know, for commercials and stuff. So that was like a first little baby hurdle. I was like, okay, that's a little weird, but okay, you know, I'd rather have you get the job than not. And then it progressed. It kind of like fast forwarded pretty quickly into the role that, like the kind of niche that he's in, it's, it's sexualized, you know, so it's not like a PG type situation.

[Nick Viall]

Without giving too much away, like. What do you mean?

[Caller Kayleigh]

I know, I'm trying to like dance around it. Like the whole concept, it's very Guy saves girl.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, he's just being cast in roles where he's like a, a love interest, basically.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah. Like he's, he's always the lead in these types of roles. It's always the guy, the girl.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Caller Kayleigh]

You know, there's always an intimate scene, plus more like in everyone essentially. Like he's not getting like an army role, you know.

[Nick Viall]

Sure. What conversations have you guys had around this? I mean, because at the end of the day is it's going to come down to how you guys communicate, you know, and whether we've talked, we've Had.

[Caller Kayleigh]

I can't tell you how many conversations about it. So we. The communications there. And he tries to explain, like, the intricacies of it. He's like, it's really just like a smoke and mirrors thing. And when I see it obviously doesn't feel that way, but to me it feels like, like that sacredness that we had getting married kind of got stolen from me in a sense. Like, I know he was pursuing acting, but you don't really. Your mind can't kind of grasp, like, oh, my husband's body isn't just for me, it's going to be used with another woman.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, no, I get it. How does he describe it to you?

[Caller]

He's.

[Caller Kayleigh]

He's described it as obviously being more uncomfortable than anything. He's like, everybody's uncomfortable doing it. You know, there's a whole crew around us.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Caller Kayleigh]

He's like, you kind of prefer it to be like, like before lunch, you know, so he's like. He's giving me some like, light insight into it, which I appreciate.

[Nick Viall]

I did some acting and I. And I had a kissing scene with a woman. It was super awkward. You know, it was. It was not in any way. And I was single at the time,

[Caller Kayleigh]

which makes it a little easier. Right.

[Nick Viall]

Well, I guess that was kind of my point. Not really. I mean, you know, I guess, you know, I only say I was single because I guess there's a world in which I guess if. If I felt something and I wanted to pursue something, I guess being single, I. I could suppose. But I was very concerned about being professional. Right. And. And I didn't want to look like I was enjoying it, you know, like I didn't.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Right.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, I was very self conscious about. And again, it was a. My scene wasn't like, it was more of a comedy show, so it wasn't like some big like, sex scene. It wasn't sensual and I didn't have to like lean in that way. So a little different. But I just. Yeah, I do remember. Yeah. Obviously, because my first time doing it, just how. How weird it was and how unromantic it was and how it felt like licking an elbow.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah, that's a good explanation. I mean, that sounds good. That feels good to hear, you know,

[Nick Viall]

but as, you know, like, I mean, there have been people who have fallen for each other, you know, on set and things like that and.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Right.

[Nick Viall]

Mr. And Mrs. Smith and Brad and Angeli. Who? Brad Pitt.

[Caller Kayleigh]

They're like the ultimate like nightmare.

[Nick Viall]

Right. You know, it's like, oh, you left Jennifer aniston you know, and things like that. Yeah, I mean, so, like, it's, you know, I mean, I feel like I. I don't know how much help I'm. I'm being here or how much help I can be other than, like, I'm curious, like, would this be. Have you guys ever done couples therapy?

[Caller Kayleigh]

Um, we did before we got married, but no, not, not like, consistently.

[Nick Viall]

I just think. I think this could be something where. Because, you know, these conversations are very hard to navigate. And I think you. It sounds like you both have acknowledged, like, this is a weird situation and you're juggling this, like, okay, well, I don't want to stop my husband from pursuing his dreams and. And I want to be happy for him at the same time also feeling this weird insecurity that's normal. And how do I bring it up without making him feel like he's doing something wrong or he, you know, it's just like, you know, added pressure and, you know, is he. Is he going to grow to resent me and things like that, and then maybe he's just not sure how to talk about it because he doesn't want to trigger you or. And then I, you know, I think in these situations with, In. In relationships, and when I say this situation, I mean just kind of like something where you. You want to address, but you don't know how to address it, and you want to give your partner the benefit of the doubt and yada, yada. I think it's very common for people in relationships to, like, avoid it and not say anything. And then you're stuck internalizing your feelings, and it snowballs. And he's doing the same thing. And I just wonder if, like, a good couples therapist, not that, like, you know, you have to see every week, but like a safe space that you guys can go into and just say, can we just talk through this and have someone kind of guide that conversation, give you an opportunity to speak, make sure your husband's listening, vice versa, and just, you know, kind of playing that referee so that you guys can, like, open up about the things that, you know, you're just a little insecure about. You hear me talk about connection, right? And so my guess is your big fear is, like, maintaining this connection you guys have while allowing your husband. Husband to pursue his dream. And so it's really just about making sure if you guys can focus on. This is a weird thing we're doing. Right. But how do I make sure that my husband and I stay connected throughout this, in these periods of, like, when he has to go do this thing, that makes me really uncomfortable, you know, because it doesn't really matter what people say or, you know, like if your husband gets to the point where it's like famous and people are following him and it can get kind of weird.

[Caller Kayleigh]

I don't, I never wanted like the, Yeah, I never wanted like the fame thing. Like I'm not in his industry at all, so. And he, he actually, the reason I, I love him is because he's. One of the reasons is because he's not about being famous. You know, he's just, he genuinely has a passion for acting. I think. I think if he wanted to be famous, I would have, you know, we wouldn't have gotten this far. But not that it's a bad thing,

[Nick Viall]

but, but I mean, if he really continues to pursue his dream, I'm assuming there's a chance he could become more well known.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah, of course, there's always that chance.

[Nick Viall]

Like the acting gigs he's getting now, like who's, who's seeing who's watching this content.

[Caller Kayleigh]

It's a very niche content at the moment. It's kind of a space where, you know, with the strike and everything, that world's kind of been struggling a bit. So people are kind of navigating into this space because it's quick and I'm trying not to just tell too much about it, but it's like fast paced and like easy money essentially. To your point, like trying to navigate this. I'm trying to, to give myself some sense of like security. I'm trying to like establish boundaries for us, but I also want them to be like healthy boundaries.

[Nick Viall]

So what are some of the boundaries you've tried to establish in this world?

[Caller Kayleigh]

Like the acting world, you know, people bond really quickly when they're on set together. The boundary I wanted to draw for us, I was like, hey, when a project's done, like you leave work at work, I don't necessarily feel comfortable with you continuing conversations with your female co stars. Post project. I was like, I feel like that like my concern is like the blurred line between professional and then our like personal marriage on the other.

[Nick Viall]

Is he having a hard time honoring that boundary?

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah, because he pushed back on me. I was like, I was like, I think once the job's done, like, only because this situation is so unconventional, I feel like our responses or reactions to it need to kind of be unconventional because if it was a normal co worker, I wouldn't have an issue with it. But it's a. But my brain Goes to like, wait, no, you've. You've kissed this woman. You know, you've been physically intimate. So I'm like adding a layer of communication post work. I'm like, that make. That feels like I don't know how to navigate that.

[Nick Viall]

Is it just kissing or is he doing more?

[Caller Kayleigh]

No, it's just kissing. But it's like we have the line that I drew. I was like, no, obviously absolutely no tongue. Like both actors can choose to do that, but it's not something that's like, it's not typically done okay between two actors unless they both like agree to it.

[Nick Viall]

Gotcha.

[Caller Kayleigh]

So that's like a no no for us. And then obviously like genitals and. And that whole deal is a no no for us. So it's kissing, but it's like full body kissing, I guess.

[Nick Viall]

Gotcha. Back to your boundary. I'm, I'm curious. I'm still a little confused why he can't honor that. Like, so, like I was confused too. Like, is he saying, okay, the prod, you know, they do the project. Project's done. He wants to what, be able to like text this person, Maintain a friendship, have a cup of coffee with like, what is he trying to do?

[Caller Kayleigh]

So definitely no texting. They don't. He doesn't share his like personal number. It's more like a D. Like it'll be a dm. Like let's say the project comes out and one, it's always, he's never initiated conversation. It's always the other co star. So she'll like, she'll be like, oh, this, our project's out, we're getting good reviews. Or, or it'll be like an inside joke of like, ha, this was hilarious. So it's all like pertaining to work. And that was his defense is like, he was like, babe, it's completely in the same vein of work. It's never an out of pocket conversation.

[Nick Viall]

And it's only, it's only, it's the occasional DM kind of bonding, I guess over this project or so maybe some excitement around it finally coming out.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah, it's been that. And then other times it's been, hey, did you hear that they're casting for this? Or hey, did this production team reach out to you regarding this? So it is pertaining to work. And then there's, there's been times where one of his co stars like DMing him and she's like, hey, can you like bring me a charger? And then I'm kind of. And it's as simple as that it is. I'm kind of sitting back on my. Could she. Could you message someone that's, like, not married for a charger? You know what I mean? There's, like. There's how many people on set? You know, so not. It's not inappropriate, but it's kind of like I'm trying to find that boundary of, like, what's normal, what's not, you know?

[Nick Viall]

Do you feel like your husband recognizes the sensitivity in your insecurities around this and is really trying to be proactive to ensure that you feel comfortable?

[Caller Kayleigh]

I think he's trying his best. And I think where. Where we butt heads is when I, for example, we had an issue last night, ironically. So I get. I guess I'll give it as an example because this tends to be our, like, go around. So we have, like, full phone transparency. Like, we don't keep our phones from each other. It's very. I don't know, grab my phone. You could look, whatever. You know, it's not. We're just open about that.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Especially considering if he's choosing to, hey, I'm going to communicate in the workspace. And regarding work with other women, I was like, okay, let's just keep our phones out. There's no secrets. There's no, you know, I have his phone and a message pops up from a previous co star he just worked with. She's basically saying, like, hey, did this production team reach out to you about this project, or are they kind of just like, screwing with me? And he. And then he responds like, oh, no. Like, they. They reached out to me, but I'm kind of waiting on the. I'm choosing to wait on the rewrite. And then she's.

[Caller Ally]

She's.

[Caller Kayleigh]

She's basically saying, oh, yeah, they offer. They upped the price for me. They offered more, but I'm not sure given, like, the script, because I guess the specific script was very sexual. Even more so than the standard. They're going back and forth, messaging about whether or not they're going to do it. Or she. She tells him, like, hey, just, hey, let me know if you choose to do it. Because I want to do it with someone that I've, like, worked with before. And so, like, I'm looking at that, and then I got heated and triggered because I'm like, wait, so you're basically making, like, a work decision with another woman?

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caller Kayleigh]

And you. And you guys are talking about as. As the con. The context is a sexual scene, which obviously is like, a trigger point for me.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Caller Kayleigh]

And so my point of view, I was trying to explain to him last night. I was like, I think that should be between your agent, the producers, and your wife. I don't think that's something you need to talk about with this other woman that you're going to be having this sexual scene with. I just. I think that's crossing a boundary for me. And then he got upset because I think he feels attacked, and he's like, but I respected our marriage. There's nothing I said that was inappropriate. And I was like, no, of course I know you didn't say anything inappropriate. It's the. I'm just trying to explain to you, like, this is a boundary that I feel needs to be drawn, and you're

[Nick Viall]

communicating it like this. How you're sounding.

[Caller Kayleigh]

I think. I think. Can I. Can I say that?

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, you can say whatever you want.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Okay. Okay. I think I fuck up because the way I approach him comes off as an attack. And so I think he instantly puts his guard up and assumes that I'm kind of telling him, like, oh, you did wrong, like you fucked up.

[Nick Viall]

Well, the reason I ask is when you're talking to me, it. You sound reasonable, and you sound like you're like, hey, I'm a little triggered right now, and let's talk about it. But I don't know if that's how you're actually communicating it, as opposed to, like, that's, you know, if the first words out of your mouth is, well, that's fucked up.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Then. Then he. Then it makes sense why he's triggered.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Because that sounds like an accusation. You did something up. That's how he's gonna probably hear it. Right?

[Caller Kayleigh]

Right.

[Nick Viall]

As opposed to, hey, that made me a little uncomfortable. Can we talk about it? Is more of an invitation to have a conversation and less of an accusation. And that's what, you know, that's why I brought up couples therapy, because so much of you guys dealing with this is going to be like, it's. You know, it's such a sensitive topic, and even for a married couple, you. You're going to feel triggered. You have the right to feel triggered. You don't want to accuse him. He's already on the defense. And you guys are just like, you're spending all this energy trying to communicate how you feel and have your feelings being validated while simultaneously trying to say it the right way so he doesn't feel triggered. And when you guys do this on your own as just as human beings, like, once you guys trigger each other, then you get in this kind of fight or flight mode mentally, and it's just like, the conversation goes off the rails, and the next thing you know, you've been fighting for 15 minutes, and you're like, that's not what I wanted to happen. I just wanted to talk to you. And this is like, oh, my God, we're doing this thing, right?

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And that's where I think a good couple's therapist can be really helpful. Cause, like, they got no stake in the game, but they know that the goal. The goal is for you guys to connect, communicate, stay on the same page. And when someone gets triggered, someone's there to be like, all right, wait, let's pause. And they can maybe help relay the information, because they're not gonna get triggered. They. They probably hear what you're saying, and then they can slow down your husband, who maybe needs to take some moment. You know what I'm saying? Like, it really almost requires a referee. It's. It does. These are. Conversations are very difficult to do, you know, because you. You're here. You're trying to recreate the conversation you had last night with your husband, and I'm kind of like, okay, giving a little note. Oh, you could have said this. You could have said that. It's just really hard to do, you know, like, in the future. But, yeah, like, how you start a conversation, an argument goes a long way. You know, it's like you say the right wrong thing to start it, and then, like, that conversation never has a chance. Like, once he's triggered, then it's like, again, he's kind of in this defense, fight, or flight mode, and his more focuses on, like, defending what he did or didn't do, you know?

[Caller Kayleigh]

Right. That's all he was doing. And that's why I wanted your opinion from a man's brain, you know, because we're, like, arguing last night, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. It's like, you really. I was going crazy. I was like, you do not get it. But he was trying. I was like, you're your biggest fan right now because you're defending your honor. And I was like, that's not what. I'm not saying you did anything wrong. So you're defending your honor for nothing, you know, but you're making him.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. You're making him feel like he is.

[Caller Ally]

Right.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't talk to him as nice as I talked to you just now, but it wasn't really bad. It was kind of like I was visibly upset.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. So like, anyway, he knows you. He can read your energy. Sometimes you might not have to say anything and he can tell you're upset and he can get defensive because I, you know, like this, this is a perfect example why I can appreciate why this is such a difficult conversation to have. Because I, I get your point of view and I kind of get his. Right. Like, it makes sense why another actor who has a familiar, you know, as a woman, I'm sure you can appreciate this other woman's. Hey, I mean, work or not, I'm, I, you know, part of my work has to do this weird thing and, and, and there's a lot of weird guys out there. And here I have this co worker who. He's a professional. He does, he's not weird about it. You know, we're doing a scene and I don't think he's trying to fuck me, you know, like, he's, you know, and that does, that makes me feel safe. It's a weird thing. I even, even me saying that it probably feels weird for you because you're like, it's not my husband's job to make another woman feel safe, you know?

[Caller Kayleigh]

Right, right, exactly. Like having, having that access, like so many women having access to my husband. Not only just like a simple dm, but like you're, you're kissing my husband. You have access to my husband's body. It's like, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.

[Nick Viall]

No, you weren't cutting me off. Go ahead.

[Caller Kayleigh]

I think the reason why I fell in love with him is because he's, he is so professional. Like, and, you know, being with someone for so long, you see like, how they move when you socialize. And he's so respectful of women. And if we're in a, like at a party or in a room, like, he's always looking like, is my wife good? Like, I'm gonna pick, I'm gonna choose to have like intentional space between this woman that's talking to me. You know, he's very like self aware and respectful to our marriage. And so I know that he carries himself with the utmost professionalism and respect to our marriage because he values, I know that he values me.

[Nick Viall]

What you can probably do to help yourself is to lean on, on that. Right? So, like, it really is about controlling your thoughts and it's easy to let unravel when your insecurities come up, right? But here you just spent the past minute or two describing how your husband carries himself throughout the world in public, around other women. Right? Very Self. Aware. Aware of his surroundings. I am sure you appreciate the fact that he doesn't make women feel uncomfortable with his presence. He's not looking him up and down or whatever, you know, like, there's a lot of guys, married guys, guys in general that aren't like that, who aren't self aware and go a step further and take advantage of the fact when they're, when they're, when their wives or partners aren't around and kind of play fast and loose with like, oh, I wasn't flirting, I was just being friendly and, and whatever. I didn't do anything wrong, you know, and kind of playing that game, you know, offering to buy a drink. Well, I just offered her a drink. I was just being nice. You know, it's like, no, I don't. You don't. You don't do that. You know, like, it's. For me, yeah, it's my job to not do anything that could be misconstrued as an invitation of interest from me to anyone else. I'd rather have every other woman I interact with think I'm a rude asshole than think that I am flirting with them. But it sounds like your husband carries himself that way, right? So then here you have this situation where this woman dm's your husband. And the tone of the message sounds like, yeah, that whole, like, you make me feel safe and that makes me feel good. And if we, I do this, I want it to be with you. And that like, feels weird because you're like, that's not his job to make her feel safe. Right? And then you make it about this woman and this perceived connection that you're worried about to help yourself would, to be like, but I like that my husband makes women feel this way. It's nothing more than how I've seen my husband operate when I'm with him, which is women around him, like, because, you know, you know, I'm saying, you know, as a woman that like, sometimes you're just around guys and they're just weird. They look at you and look, you know, and their eye contact is not where it needs to be. Or they're just like, they're just fucking weird and they kind of test those boundaries to get a reaction. And like a women's. In women intuition, they pick up on that. And it's just like, it's like an icky feeling, you know, and that's often in like a normal professional environment where like, they're not supposed to be like, these lines aren't supposed to be blurred, right? So it's extra important that your husband demonstrates his professionalism in this atmosphere. And so just reminding yourself why she, you know, like, just knowing that her intentions make sense.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah, I never thought of it that way. So that's a good, like, reframe.

[Nick Viall]

So that could help yourself out. Just kind of knowing. It's like, like it may, you know, it makes sense because I know my husband, and it makes sense why someone would reach out to him that way because he's nothing. Nothing. My husband's never shown me that I should be worried around. When he's. When I'm not there, the petty side

[Caller Kayleigh]

of me comes out and I'm like, fuck off. Like, literally. Ask anybody else.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, I mean, the, the, you know, can you get me a charger? I get what you're just like, yeah, but in that moment, like, you're a big girl. Get your own charger in that moment. See, like, your husband could just like, ignore that message, which he.

[Caller Kayleigh]

But he's not an asshole. He's like, I'm not gonna, like. He's like, I'll just respond like, yeah, I'll bring one. You know, like. And I hate to use, like, oh, he's a nice guy, but professionally, you just want to be nice to people. So he's like, I'm not going to, like, blatantly.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, but you see, that's where. That's where I feel like you could be a little nitpicky where he could go the extra mile. And I don't think him not. He could play it off like he didn't see it. He could make an excuse like, he's unavailable right now.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Right.

[Nick Viall]

He could just like, you know, eventually, to your point, and it's just like getting into the weeds here without anyone having misguided intentions. She could just get comfortable asking him for little favors like that. Right. Without thinking she's doing anything wrong. And you would still have the right to be like, eh, babe, that's. Find someone else. And the more your husband says yes to her asking for favors, the more comfortable she is going forward asking for those favors. So even though your husband doesn't want to be a dick, and there might be a couple scenarios where it would be weird for him to be like, yeah, sure, no, yeah, I'm right here. You know, but he could without. He doesn't have to say anything to her. He could just find ways to avoid being helpful or again, make up some of excuse and go the extra mile where it doesn't come across as rude to her. He's Just unavailable. So much so that she just stops asking him to do those little things because he just never seems to be available to do it. Yeah, see, like in these moments, what you probably need is to find the thing that is a little bit of a ridiculous ask on your part and maybe you can even acknowledge that maybe it's a little petty of me, but you want him to be like, no problem, babe, if it makes you feel better, I will do that. And as long as the ask doesn't put him in a weird situation at work where his coworkers are like, why is he being weird? Or why is he being mean to me? Or like why is he being unnecessarily rude to me? You know, he doesn't need to do that. Right? He could just like not do it, you know, be like, oh, sorry, I'm busy right now. Can you ask someone else? Not reply, not see it, not get to the message, you know, oh, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't see it. I'd been off my phone. He can play dumb long enough and then she would be none the wiser. And he's doing it for you, as petty as it might be. You have the right as his wife to like be petty and ask him to do things that like he thinks are silly and he's your husband, so he's going to do it, you know, And I think it's like that, that little thing is probably all you need.

[Caller Kayleigh]

It's like the small. Yeah, it's the smallest thing. And I'll kind of doubt myself because it's really important for me and for us to have like a healthy marriage, you know, so we're not going to try to like, I don't know, create some toxicity in this space. So I'll have self doubt. And then I came from a very like emotional, abusive, just cheating relationship before him for a long time. So that self doubt will come my brain and I'm like, wait, is this like past trauma that is coming up or is this the new me? But that still has a boundary and it's hard to trust myself to decipher like what's what is it both?

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, probably a little bit of both. I mean, I don't think you have to be cheated on to feel weirded out by your husband kissing other women, even if it's for acting, you know, it's a normal response. And so you're doing your best being mindful of your past while still like trying to find the words to communicate a valid insecurity.

[Caller Kayleigh]

So I'M not as bad as I think I am, maybe.

[Nick Viall]

No, I doesn't think you're bad at all. If anything, it just sounds like maybe your delivery is a little off. Or more. More likely, you guys are both trying to have a difficult conversation that you're not equipped to have, and you're both easily triggered. You're describing a guy who really wants to do right by his wife while pursuing his dream, and he's like, doesn't really have the answer because, like, at the end of the day, he does have to kiss these people, and he's really gone out of his way to be professional, and it doesn't seem to be good enough for you. And then it sounds like to him like you're asking him to just do these weird things that it's like, well, you want me to be like, you just want me to be a dick to these people? Or, you know, because I. I can see why he's like, so I just have to, like, avoid. I can't talk to her. Like, that's weird. You know, like, exactly. Sorry, I can't talk to you.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Spot on. And I'll try to tell him. I'm like, but you guys don't work at, like, Starbucks together, you know, you guys. I'm like, you guys were smooching each other like, 24 hours ago. So these dynamics.

[Nick Viall]

What if he replied something like, yeah, I'm considering it too. Obviously, I have to talk to my wife about this.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Oh, love that.

[Nick Viall]

You would love that.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah, that's hot.

[Nick Viall]

Why isn't he. Yeah, but why? And he hasn't done that because that. That would have been something like my. You know, it's like, to your point, like, just finding little ways. And again, not assuming that she has any alternative motives or things like that, but like, yeah, it's hot when your partner goes out of their way just to remind who's ever listening, whoever is around, whether you're. He's at work acting or you're out at the bars, like, name drop. Hey, can I buy you a drink? Like, sure. My husband really appreciates saving some money, you know? You know, just like that, hey, I am spoken for. I am taken. I'm not available to you. There's someone else I need to talk to. And I imagine when she's reaching out to him, talking about work, checking in with him, saying, please let me know. You feel left out of that conversation.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And him saying, you know, he can say whatever, not say whatever he wants, but it sounds like he could probably say everything he already Said, but just include, well, I'm definitely gonna have to talk to my wife, but yeah, I'll let you know what we decide.

[Caller Kayleigh]

That would, like, go far for me emotionally. I would feel obviously much safer. It's just a clear, it's so clear for him to do that. Yeah, that would make me feel fantastic and a lot safer, essentially.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. And so maybe suggest that, you know, you know, because you're basically saying, like, listen, I, I, it's like you want to be able to say to them, I don't want you to always feel like you're doing something wrong and that anytime you talk to your women co stars that I'm going to be pissed. But as much as it makes sense, and I feel like that would totally make sense when she's like literally saying, hey, have you gotten this script? What do you think about it? Are you going to do it? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That like, it would make total sense, you know, regardless of what the profession is, you know, because like, to your point, that just makes any partner feel good because they feel included in the conversation and they, and they're letting the people know that we are a united front and we make decisions together. Right. I'm sure you feel that extra sense of security because, like, he's just planting the seed and suggesting that whatever we talk about, he's going to talk about with his wife.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Right.

[Nick Viall]

You know, and the more he can do that and echo your name and talk about you, and maybe he already does when he's on set. Like, that would give you a sense of security that you need and that's fair.

[Caller Kayleigh]

And like, the industry itself obviously is like the kiss of death for marriages, probably. And then I think reality TVs, if not before it or right behind it.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, it's up there. Yeah.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah. So I guess I just have that preemptive anxiety and kind of overprotectiveness of us, because I know the odds of that are high when it kind of evolves into something bigger. So I'm just on guard, I guess. But I do want to ask you about. This is another interesting topic regarding this. I know some actors watch, they choose to watch intimate scenes that their partner's doing and then some don't. And the space that I wanted to approach it, I don't like an elephant in the room. Like, I wanted full transparency about it. So I always leaned into it. I always wanted to be like, no, of course. Like, I'll watch it. And he kind of communicated with me like, you know, that's not necessary. Like, you don't need to watch it. I totally understand.

[Nick Viall]

Well, I don't know if there's a right or wrong way. I mean, what do you feel most comfortable with?

[Caller Kayleigh]

It's uncomfortable watching.

[Nick Viall]

But why would you watch it? Sounds to me like you would watch to make sure you don't notice something you shouldn't notice.

[Caller Kayleigh]

It's a. I don't know. I think it. I think transparency makes me feel more secure than, like, my imagination ever could.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, but I mean, if your husband's a good actor, he's supposed to look like he wants to fuck her, right?

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah, but. And then I also think, like, too, like. Because I'm sure there's got to be a difference between actually being intimate with your spouse and then putting on a show. Maybe there's not, I guess, to your point, depending on how good you are.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, here, put this reality. When I was the Bachelor, right? It's, you know, you. The reality is you're really not into most of the people you meet, right? And as the Bachelor, you really just, like, you're trying to survive and get through it. And a lot of the women you are interacting with will get nervous, and when they don't know what to say, they just make out with you. Right? And that is very hard to do, right? And then you usually end the season in a relationship, and then you have to watch it back. And most of those interactions, and first of all, half the people's names you don't remember, you are literally required to fake feelings, right? Because, like, if. If you had it your way, you'd be like, can we just send them all home? Because I know I'm not interested in. And all of them. I only just, like, one. And I want to focus on that, but that's not the show. You can't do that. You have to, like, you kind of have to pretend a little bit. You know, you have to act a little bit, right? And even though that's just like. You're just like, it was always you. I only liked you. I didn't really like them. You know, honestly, like, couldn't stand her. And, like, that was a really uncomfortable moment for me. And then. Yet she watches it back, and it's kind of like, but you fucking told me you hated them. They're playing love music in the background. It looks like a romantic scene. I'm saying things I don't mean, you know, and I'm leading them on, you know, because that's part of the gig and very difficult for her to watch. Understandably So I. So unless you really want to, and you're like, you're totally. To me, it sounds like maybe you shouldn't watch that stuff because it's only gonna, like, play with your brain and play with your insecurities. And unless you are really appreciating your husband's craft and you just are really proud of him and it doesn't bother you and you really want to support him, maybe don't watch it because, again, it's only gonna play with your brain. You're gonna be like, why you don't. Like, you look like you are really into her, you know?

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah, that makes sense. I've gotten that feedback from family and friends in my mind. In my mind, I was trying to avoid, like, a wedge because I felt like that would have been a wedge, not kind of leaning in, but, yeah, you're right. Maybe I'll table it for now.

[Nick Viall]

Anything else I can help you out with?

[Caller Kayleigh]

I think that was pretty much it.

[Nick Viall]

Okay. Was it. Was this helpful?

[Caller Kayleigh]

No, it was definitely helpful. That reframe that you gave me. As far as, like, the messages back and forth, that really helped. I didn't get that point of view before, so. Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. I mean, listen, if you trust your husband, job aside, it sounds like you feel like you have a really good guy and you really like who you married, and you really like how he carries himself as a man and how he makes other women feel, and that makes you feel good. And that's really important to remind yourself that's who you married and that's who he is. And as much as you can give him that benefit of the doubt and remind him that's how you think of him. Right? Because where his defensiveness comes in is you doubting his character, you know? And you. You. You're doubting his intentions when he's already trying not to appease you and do the right thing. Obviously, these situations bring up uncharted territory and bring up situations where, like, that just feels wrong. And I think that can go a long way to just remind him that you really do appreciate those ways in which he carries himself, and you are grateful to have that. When you see that message or hear about the message, instead of it being like, that's fucked up, just be like, okay, I don't know if I should be bothered, but I'm a little bothered. Can we talk about this and just try. It's just like, again, if you can reframe that conversation to, like, can we work through this and talk about it? Because I'm A little bothered. And it's. It's probably a me thing, but can we talk about it and can we find a way for me to make me feel comfortable? And it sounds like he's the type of guy who's like, how can I make you feel comfortable? As opposed to you listing all these. Well, you're not. You shouldn't be allowed to talk to anyone outside of work. Clearly, some situations are coming up where he's just like. He feels like I have to be a weird, rude guy without explaining myself to these people is probably how he's internalizing it. And it sounds like he could just do a little things that would make you feel a little bit more secure. Like, again, saying, totally down. Let me check. You know, I'm definitely going to have to talk to my wife and obviously talk to my team. I'll let you know what we decide.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah. No, I think you nailed it. I think you pretty summed it. You summed it up, like, perfectly.

[Nick Viall]

And I do think, again, a couples therapist would go a long way when discussing these things, because you can talk to me, and I could offer you that advice. And then three days from now, something can come up, you feel triggered, and then again, all it takes to have a bad conversation is starting that conversation with the wrong energy and the wrong intensity. And if there's no one there to play mediator, then you guys, this snowball, and then that's where you feel more disconnected. You feel like you're not on the same page. It feels adversarial. And you can feel that way even though both people don't want that. But it started off on the wrong foot.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah, exactly. And I guess there's some, like, ICs or intimacy coordinators that actually do counseling for people that are in the industry for married couples. So, yeah, it's definitely something I think we'd both do in the future.

[Nick Viall]

And I think you just letting him know, like, listen, I'm really proud of you, and I think it's amazing you've pursued this dream, and I really appreciate you going out of your way to make me feel safe. And I know sometimes my insecurities might be frustrating, but. So I. I appreciate you always being attentive to that. And little things like that in between can go a long way. Then it makes it feel like when your insecurities do come up, it's coming from a good place, as opposed to, like, she's mad again. I can't do anything right.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Right.

[Nick Viall]

And things like that. And doesn't she know that I love her. And doesn't she know that I would never do that? And, like, what more can I do to prove to her? Definitely coming from that place a little bit. But it's not to say that you can't do a little bit more. And I think, like I said, it's finding that common ground where you can be a little petty and you can ask him to do something, maybe it's a little trivial, and you both know it's a little trivial. And instead of him saying, well, that's petty, I don't know why I need to do that. He's just more like, easy. I can do that. And if that makes you feel good, I'm happy to do it because, like, that's all I really care about. And, yeah, I'll just avoid these little, like, tasks in favors that she's asking me to do, short of, like, weirdly saying no and it just being weird that I said no. But, like, for the most part, he could just not read that message. He can say he's busy. He could just not do those things, and she can start asking other people without him being like, listen, I can't do that stuff for you because my wife won't let me. Yeah, you know?

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah. Damn, you're good. I know. I mean, I've been listening to you for a while, but, like, yeah, you, like, nailed everything on the head, so.

[Nick Viall]

All right, well, I'm glad I could help. This was definitely a trickier one.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah, I was interested, but, yeah, I'll definitely have him listen to the episode. I think just your response and viewpoint too. I think he'll feel really good about it. It's like you were inside his head.

[Nick Viall]

He knows you're calling in.

[Caller Kayleigh]

I will. I'm gonna tell him, like, after the call, and then I'm just gonna, like, tell him, like, I'll send it to you so he can listen. I think it'll help us for sure.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. I mean, it's a tricky thing, but focus on your connection and then that. And that's to be the language you use. Like, I just want to be. I just want us to stay connected. And I don't want you chasing your dreams to cause us to feel disconnected. And these are situations that are just like. And again, when people don't know what to say, they often don't say anything. And that's when couples can really lose that connection because you're just like, I don't know what to say. And then you kind of both unravel in your brain and. And Assume the worst and not give your partner the benefit of the doubt. And that's what you want to try to avoid?

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah, definitely.

[Nick Viall]

All right.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah, yeah. I really appreciate you and congrats on twins.

[Nick Viall]

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

[Caller Kayleigh]

That's awesome. Yeah. And thank the household for me too, as well.

[Nick Viall]

I will. All right, take care. Thanks a lot.

[Caller Kayleigh]

All right, you too. Bye.

[Nick Viall]

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[Caller Ally]

How are you?

[Nick Viall]

Good. What's your name?

[Caller Ally]

My name is Ally. I'm 23 and I'm in a crazy love triangle right now.

[Nick Viall]

All right, well tell me about it.

[Caller Ally]

So I had a three year relationship with somebody that I met in college and then I was on a girls trip and then the day before we broke up, I met this guy, we'll name him Ben. And so I've been seeing him for 4ish months and I'm also seeing somebody in my apartment complex at the same time. And I think I'm exclusive to both of them.

[Nick Viall]

How does that happen? Well, clearly you're not exclusive with either of them. Yeah, but they don't know that.

[Caller Ally]

They don't know that. So the boy that I met in New York, we were going on like pretty consistent dates and then we, he texted me and he was like, we need to talk. Okay, so we talk. And then he's like, I can't do this, like I've never had a girlfriend before. I'm kind of freaking out. And I was like, okay, like do you want to just pause on this? Like what's going on? And so he said like, yes, like, let's break things off for now. But like I could, I don't know, like I could come back in Three days. And, like, this could be a terrible decision. So we broke things off. And literally the moment that I hung up the phone, this guy in my apartment complex asked me out.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Caller Ally]

So then I go on that date, and then the New York guy comes back. So now I'm seeing both of them, but I don't know.

[Nick Viall]

Well, hold on, because you brushed right past Aurelia.

[Caller Ally]

Okay.

[Nick Viall]

It's like. Okay, so how many days until he came back?

[Caller Ally]

It was not even 12 hours.

[Nick Viall]

Okay. And then you. But you. You said yes to that date right away.

[Caller Ally]

I said yes. The date right away.

[Nick Viall]

And you went on a date that

[Caller Ally]

night, and I went on the date.

[Nick Viall]

And how'd that date go?

[Caller Ally]

It was fantastic. Like, we talked. It was like four hours.

[Nick Viall]

All right. Did you hook up?

[Caller Ally]

No, we haven't hooked up.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, you didn't hook up. And then 12 hours later, Guy A reaches back out and says what he said.

[Caller Ally]

Do you want me to read the text?

[Nick Viall]

Sure.

[Caller Ally]

Okay. Took me less than 24 hours to realize that I'm stupid and I owe you an apology. I get it if you don't want to talk to me anymore, but you were right about what you said last night. It's not often you find a connection like this.

[Nick Viall]

Okay. And you said what?

[Caller Ally]

So I said, you're an idiot. Like, we knew this. Like, why. Why cut it off? So.

[Nick Viall]

But you didn't say, I had a really nice date last night.

[Caller Ally]

No.

[Nick Viall]

Why not?

[Caller Ally]

I did not bring that up.

[Nick Viall]

Why not?

[Caller Ally]

Because I don't want. I don't know if, Like, I don't have free. Like, he's never had a girlfriend before.

[Nick Viall]

Well, he's not. He wasn't your girlfriend. You guys weren't.

[Caller Ally]

True. We weren't together.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. Not only were you not together, he literally broke things off and panicked.

[Caller]

And.

[Caller Ally]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

You had an amazing opportunity there that you. You passed on.

[Caller Ally]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Like. And I said this before, There's a lot of things I hope people who listen to the show learn. But for the ladies out there especially, anytime you have the opportunity to remind potential suitors that you are sought after and not to be. Take it for granted, and that if. If they don't want you, other people will. Is. Is a great opportunity. And. And it will never. It will never backfire in the long run. Right?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Now, I imagine you didn't tell him because you didn't want to upset him. Maybe you felt like you did something wrong, but you didn't. But more importantly, you didn't want to upset him.

[Caller Ally]

True.

[Nick Viall]

By not telling him one now you kind of. You lied to him, you weren't honest with him, and then you got yourself into the situation where you don't know what to do.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And you've lost your power a little bit because you did nothing wrong.

[Caller Ally]

Okay.

[Nick Viall]

And then you acted like you did something wrong. And instead of being like, well, this might be hard to hear, but, like, that night I got asked out and obviously I was upset and I said yes, you know, it's like, you didn't, you know, and he can. Might he, you know, he could have been like, well, I guess we didn't have the connection that we thought I had. You could be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, I can be sad and still be capable of going on a date. You know, like, we. You weren't even my boyfriend, and I, you know. Yeah, like, what. What do you want me to do? I wasn't trying to respect the relationship we didn't have. You know, like, you know, if he was like, oh, I guess what we had didn't mean anything. It's like, well, you literally proved that to me when you told me you didn't want to keep hanging out. So why do you. Why are you gaslighting me? You know, like, you had so many opportunities to, like, standing your power and not apologize for doing nothing wrong and also remind him that if you take me for granted, there. There are people literally lining up waiting for me to be available. True. And I just, like, anytime in the future, you have to, especially when you do nothing wrong, never apologize for being desired or pursued as a single person. Especially when you're just dating these men and until they want to lock it down, so to speak, or commit to you or make a sacrifice or lean, you know, or. Or work through whatever nerves they have or. And no doubt it was like, you know, he was panicking because he really liked you but wasn't sure. I don't know, like, of like, is she the one? Am I giving up on all these matches I have on hinge? You know, like, all these probably, you know. Right. It probably has something to do with that, you know, which is a normal thing also, like, you took him right back, so he didn't even have to regret. You know, all he needed to do is be like, I'm sorry, you know, he had to send some kind of half assed meaningful text, you know, so. Missed opportunity. All right? So I just want you to remember that, you know, it's like, I'm not doing anything wrong. I. Until someone's willing to say, I want to be Your boyfriend? Will you be my girlfriend? I want to commit to you. I want to know what you expect of me. You know, how can I make you feel safe, secure in a relationship? And I want to do. I want to go the extra mile with you. And I want to try to build an emotional. Until that happens, you can do it or the fuck you want. And you do not have to apologize for anyone. And you shouldn't hide the fact that you are a desired person.

[Caller Ally]

Okay, thanks.

[Nick Viall]

All right, so that's honestly the. More than anything. That's all you need. We could end this call now and I feel like. But let's. Let's work on your current dilemma. Anyway, so you. You didn't do that. You just were like, great, thanks for being sorry. And when's our next date? Bas.

[Caller Ally]

Yeah, so we have a date on Valentine's Day. And I have a date tonight. Last year, the other boy. No, this is this like, like upcoming, like next year.

[Nick Viall]

Oh, so you've planned a date with. We have a date planned with Guy A.

[Caller Ally]

Guy A.

[Nick Viall]

So this is all recent?

[Caller Ally]

Yes, this is super recent. Like today.

[Nick Viall]

Today.

[Caller Ally]

Like today.

[Nick Viall]

Great. We're fine. This is good. We can still. We can. We can still right our wrong. I mean, you get off the phone with me, you're going to call him up and be like, hey, I actually, I need to tell you something. I don't know why I didn't say it at first. I was a little caught off guard because honestly, I wasn't expect you 12 hours later. Reach out. But I went on a date last night.

[Caller Ally]

Okay, wait, hold on. I need to back up. Okay, the date happened two weeks ago, and I've been seeing the apartment guy every single night.

[Nick Viall]

Who do you like more?

[Caller Ally]

I don't know because I know the second guy is very stable and the first guy.

[Nick Viall]

How do you know that he's stable? How do you. How do you know these. That you don't him for two weeks and he's.

[Caller Ally]

No, we've been friends for a long time.

[Nick Viall]

You've been friends. So he finally like, shot his shot.

[Caller Ally]

He shot his shot.

[Nick Viall]

Okay. Have you hooked up with guy number two?

[Caller Ally]

No, he's never made a move.

[Nick Viall]

All right, has he spent the night?

[Caller Ally]

No. But like we say good night, I go back downstairs to my apartment. Okay, I've hooked up with Guy A,

[Nick Viall]

but not since Guy B is since Guy B. All right, so give me the exact timeline. All right, so two weeks ago. Okay, two weeks. Two weeks ago. Guy A said, sorry, I can't do this.

[Caller Ally]

Two Weeks ago. Guy said that.

[Nick Viall]

All right. And then that night, you went on a really lovely date. The next day, Guy A reached out to you and said, my bad. You said, no problem.

[Caller Ally]

It's all right.

[Nick Viall]

All right.

[Caller Ally]

Welcome back.

[Nick Viall]

And then when do you guys see each other again?

[Caller Ally]

A week later.

[Nick Viall]

A week later. Okay. And then you hooked up.

[Caller Ally]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Was that the first time you guys hooked up?

[Caller Ally]

No.

[Nick Viall]

All right, so then it was nothing new.

[Caller Ally]

Nothing new.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, cool. And then you haven't seen him since, and you've planned a Valentine's Day date.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Does Guy B want to know what you're doing on Valentine's Day?

[Caller Ally]

Guy B is going on a trip for work, so he hasn't asked.

[Nick Viall]

How convenient.

[Caller Ally]

True.

[Nick Viall]

Well, what do you think you should do?

[Caller Ally]

Like, do I owe the Guy A. Like, the explanation of, like, why I haven't, like, FaceTimed him at night?

[Nick Viall]

To me, it's not about owing either of these guys anything.

[Caller Ally]

Okay.

[Nick Viall]

I think for you, this is about you making better decisions for yourself and using this opportunity that's generally low stakes, as I would say. You're not neither of these guys your boyfriend. You technically still haven't done anything wrong. You definitely could have been more honest, but you don't owe them that. But, like, again, I want you to feel confident enough to not have to again apologize for things you're not doing wrong.

[Caller Ally]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

So if you're still unsure about both these guys and you still want to maybe date both these guys, I think you have the right to try.

[Caller Ally]

Okay, well, let me back up a step. Okay, so Guy A and I were exclusive. Like, we were only seeing each other, and then he broke it off.

[Nick Viall]

Right.

[Caller Ally]

And so now we're back to talking. So we're not exclusive.

[Nick Viall]

And you're making that you. You know that for sure? Because you.

[Caller Ally]

I'm just assuming.

[Nick Viall]

You're assuming that.

[Caller Ally]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

All right, well, I. He's assuming you're exclusive is my guess.

[Caller Ally]

Okay. So I should go back and clarify.

[Nick Viall]

Whatever you want. Yeah. Yeah. You're. I mean, it's. You're in a little bit of a pickle because it was two weeks ago, and. And he's gonna feel like you haven't been honest with him, and he's gonna have a right to feel that way, and then you're gonna have to deal with that. I don't think you have to get in the weeds of, like. Well, I've hung out with them every day.

[Caller Ally]

Okay.

[Nick Viall]

Since. But I think you could call them up and say, hey, listen, can we talk? And I Just want to be transparent with you, and I apologize, you know, and I should have been more transparent with you, but honestly, I was really caught off guard for the past couple weeks. But when you broke things off with me, I got ass on a date that night, and I was pretty upset with your decision. And so, obviously, I said yes because I could. And I preferred going on a date rather than being sad alone in my apartment. And I had a really nice time. And then you reached out, and I was really happy to hear from you, but honestly, a little confused, because I had a really nice time with this person. And just to be totally honest with you, I've kept communication open with this guy. And I guess, to be honest, I wasn't sure where we stood, and I guess we didn't, like, clarify whether we were exclusive once you called when you got back in my life. Anyways, I just want to be honest with you about that, because I'm. I'm honestly just not sure how I'm feeling about things right now. And I'm sorry for not telling you, because that was the right thing to do, but I'm not sorry I went on that date.

[Caller Ally]

That's good.

[Nick Viall]

And I think you kind of see what he says.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And I think it's important to remember that he has the right to be upset for that you didn't tell him. And he has to be. He has the right to be upset with himself about that call, but he has to be very careful about how he channels that frustration and whether he blames you for things that you shouldn't be sorry for. And I think, you know, it might be telling how he handles those things. You know, it's like, he should be a little jealous and a little frustrated, but more the correct response for him to be like, yeah, I. To have more regret about his decision and. And a willingness to be like, all right, well, what do I have to do to win you back? You know, that's the correct response because he should just be mad at himself. And while you can apologize for not telling him, he can also acknowledge that, like, you know, that you weren't his girlfriend, you know, and it's like you broke things off. And I honestly, I was so caught off guard at the time, I wasn't sure how serious you were or whatever. And I just, you know, I didn't tell you, and I regretted not telling you, but it's been bothering me. Now I want to tell you, you know, and if he asks you questions like, did you hook up? He's probably. Did you Hook up with this guy. You can, you can be honest and say no.

[Caller Ally]

I can say no?

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, because I did it, but outside, like, oh, well, you know, who is he? Where you know you have the right pretty quickly to be like, to be honest, it's not really any of your business. We're not boyfriend and girlfriend. I do want to be upfront with you and just let you know I have, have talked and, and continue to have talked to this other person. And I'm a little confused about how I feel about both situations because like I'm glad you came back but like you did flip a switch and you did walk away and I, that made me feel a little insecure about like our potential. Yeah. Am I articulating your feelings accurately?

[Caller Ally]

No, that is very true. It's just, it caught me off guard because things were going really well and then he's like, I'm like, like, like freaking out right now and then to come back 12 hours later.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, but yeah, you have the right to be like, I, you know, I don't want to be rude and I did want to be honest with you, but like, honestly it's not really any of your business. I mean, try to avoid saying that's none of your business, but like, you can just be like, you know, I don't, I don't need to give you the play by play. I just need to, I just wanted to let you know. And no, we haven't hooked up. But at the same time, what do you know what you want at all? Like, do you? What? Like what do you want? Like for every, let's assume both guys are going to do whatever you want. What do you want?

[Caller Ally]

Right now I feel like I have a great connection with the second guy, but I just know the first guy for longer.

[Nick Viall]

Well, I thought, I thought the second guy you've been friends with for a long time.

[Caller Ally]

Yeah, the second guy we have been friends. They're both like, do you think so the first guy. So guy A is 27, guy B is 29. Is that too old for 23?

[Nick Viall]

I mean my wife's 18 years younger than me, so you know, you're asking the wrong guy. Okay, I, I, it sounds like their ages are pretty ink. Yeah, they're, they're essentially the same age and the younger one could be wildly more mature than the older one. Who knows? Mostly based off of lived and lifed experiences. But like a two year difference for men in their late twenties is about the same. What's more important is how do you feel with them? Do you feel like you can be yourself around both of them? Do you feel like with you being a little younger than both of them is one more, say, condescending or dismissive of your age and lived experiences as opposed to another person? Do they. You know, I don't care if he's six years older than you or 18 years older than you or one year older than you. He should feel like you're equal, you know, and so that's important to gauge how you feel around these guys.

[Caller Ally]

I think they both do a really great job at that. Like, these are both really nice guys.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, well, you're gonna have to figure it out sooner and later.

[Caller Ally]

True. I'm hesitant because the first guy broke it off, so maybe second guess.

[Caller Kayleigh]

God.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, you're. I. I can't make the decision for you. I do think. I do think. You know, listen, you can give Guy a hard time, and. And certainly his decision can bother you. I don't think it's a crime for him to have a little bit of a panic. And he did come back 12 hours later. And that's honestly, like, best case scenario for someone who. It only took him. He had to literally sleep on it to be like, what the am I doing?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And it honestly, it sounds like he, like, he basically had a beer with a buddy who is a single buddy who was like, bro, like, come on, man. All these chicks, you know, I don't know if that's what happened, but, like, it probably was something as dumb as that. And then he was like, why am I listening to my friend who, like, I would never. Who's like, a mess in relation. And I'm literally took his advice, like, what am I doing? You know, it could have been as dumb as that, which is, like, not a crime and not the end of the world. So I don't know if you should make your decision on that. And if you're not ready to make a decision, maybe you can just say, you know, I need to slow things down with. You know, and it's not like, Guy A. Why do you. Why do you not see him with such regularity? Is he just a busy guy with work or something or.

[Caller Ally]

Yeah, he's got a crazy work life.

[Nick Viall]

Okay. And you like that? Do you not like that?

[Caller Ally]

I like that. Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Why have you spent every night with Guy? Baby, That's a lot.

[Caller Ally]

It is a lot. So Guy A lives in the city I'm about to move to.

[Nick Viall]

Oh.

[Caller Ally]

And Guy B lives in my current city.

[Nick Viall]

When are you moving?

[Caller Ally]

In August.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Caller Ally]

That's why Guy A, like, was freaking out, because he's like, we can't be together till August.

[Nick Viall]

Oh, interesting. I. Listen, I don't think you need to. You're not ready to make a decision, so don't make a decision. I think maybe the decision will work itself out. You also need to be honest with Guy B.

[Caller Ally]

We haven't. Like, he hasn't made a move or anything. So I don't know if we're still friends or not.

[Nick Viall]

What do you mean?

[Caller Ally]

Like, we. I go upstairs every night and I, like, I want to stay over, but he hasn't invited me. He has never tried to kiss me. Like, it's kind of just like a hug goodbye. But we make dinner together.

[Nick Viall]

Like, do you have plans tonight?

[Caller Ally]

We have place tonight.

[Nick Viall]

Doing what?

[Caller Ally]

Like, we're about to go watch a hockey game. Okay.

[Nick Viall]

He knows nothing about Guy.

[Caller Ally]

No, he knows that I went on a date, but he doesn't know anything.

[Nick Viall]

He doesn't know anything.

[Caller Ally]

He doesn't know anything.

[Nick Viall]

I still think it would be a good exercise for you to just be honest with these guys.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Okay.

[Nick Viall]

You know, and with Guy B, it might help propel things forward. Right. So here's this guy you had one really nice date with. Probably hung out every day, most out of proximity. He lives in the same building, so it's just really easy to, like, go down a floor. Right. And that's probably played a role in the. You know. And so, like, you guys are really enjoying his company. Why he hasn't made a move. I don't know. Just, you know, maybe just a really respectful king who's just, like, unsure, you know?

[Caller Ally]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And if Guy A wasn't in the picture, you would probably just be. You might be calling in be, and it would be like, I've been hanging out with this guy every night, and why hasn't he made a move? Does he really like me?

[Caller Ally]

That's probably what I would say.

[Nick Viall]

Right. So you can use this to your advantage and to say, hey, can I tell you something? This might sound a little weird, but, like, I was dating a guy kind of, you know, exclusively, wasn't my boyfriend. I don't know. In 2026, I don't know what you kids are doing, but you said that seems like a normal thing for you guys to be exclusive, but not boyfriend, girlfriend, so it won't sound weird to him.

[Caller Ally]

Situation. Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And so I was seeing this guy, you know, and we were. I guess we were exclusive. And the night you asked me out, he actually broke things off with me. And I was so obviously really excited to say yes to you. And then, like, the next day, he reached back out, regretful, because I'm awesome, and I've seen him once before, and I. I've really enjoyed our company. But I also just wanted to be honest with you that I. I have been talking to him, and I guess I'm just not even sure what this is, but I wanted to talk to you about it, and I just, you know, the conversation with Guy B is a lot easier because you definitely haven't done anything wrong. And. And what do you. It's like you don't owe him anything. You guys haven't even been physical or, you know, so, like. And so all you're doing is just trying to have an open conversation with him.

[Caller Ally]

And.

[Nick Viall]

And it's an opportunity for you to check in to see how he feels. So he might be like, oh, like, well, thanks for telling me. I, you know. Well, I, I, listen, I. If. If you can't tell I really like you, I wouldn't be hanging out with you and blah, blah, blah, blah. And for all you know, that might cause you guys to have passionate, you know, really great makeup. I don't know. But I'm guessing he. He has really less. It would. It would be weird for him to get really mad, and if he did, I think that would be a huge red flag.

[Caller Ally]

I don't think he would be.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, but it's still an opportunity to feed it. And then Guy in Guy A, again, you've done nothing wrong other than you should have told him right away, but he left.

[Caller Ally]

Like, what?

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, it's just the more the. You clearly have been finding ways to figure out how to not bring up Guy B around Guy A. And given that you hung out with Guy B every day when he was like, so what'd you do last night? You. You. You know, so to that end, you've been a little dishonest.

[Caller Ally]

Yeah, that's true.

[Nick Viall]

But, yeah, I think you lay it out there to both guys and you let them know that, like, especially Guy A, that you're really unsure about, you'd be like, yeah, I mean, you know, it really caught me off guard how you just were so quick to throw what we had away. And I'm really glad you're back, and I do really like you. But, like, I'm not gonna lie, I. I did meet another really great guy, and I've enjoyed getting to know him, and I guess I just really wanted to be honest with you. And then you can see how both These men react, and maybe you. It will help clarify your decision about how they pursue you, how they emo, how they respond. Do they blame you? Do they get. Do they get really angry with you? Do they try to make you feel like you did something wrong when you didn't? You know, that might be very telling. Yeah.

[Caller Ally]

That's good advice.

[Nick Viall]

All right. Yeah.

[Caller Ally]

That's not what. My girlfriend's upset.

[Nick Viall]

One of your girls? I'm curious.

[Caller Ally]

They're like, I'm team A. I'm Team B. Like, this doesn't help me.

[Nick Viall]

Okay. So they're just taking sides.

[Caller Ally]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And it's split down the middle.

[Caller Ally]

It's split down the middle.

[Nick Viall]

Great. And that's what the girlfriends are for, you know?

[Caller Ally]

True.

[Nick Viall]

All right. How are you gonna do that?

[Caller Ally]

Yeah, I'm gonna go talk to Guy or the second guy right now. I'll just go upstairs.

[Nick Viall]

Great. But really, more importantly, when are you gonna talk to Guy?

[Caller Ally]

I mean, we're. We have our date on Valentine's Day. Should I talk to him before.

[Nick Viall]

Yes.

[Caller Ally]

So call him, like, today, tomorrow, as soon as possible.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Nick Viall]

I honestly would talk to Gaia first.

[Caller Ally]

Really?

[Nick Viall]

Well. Because that's the bigger conversation.

[Caller Ally]

True.

[Nick Viall]

And while we don't know how either of these conversations are going to go, I think we both agree there's a good chance conversation with Guy B could go pretty well. And if anything, it could help propel things forward. And if it goes so well that all of a sudden he makes the move and tries to seal the deal, I don't want you to feel more guilty about what just happened with Guy B.

[Caller Ally]

True.

[Nick Viall]

So I think you should. I think if anything, if you hang out with. Go watch the hockey game, I think just make sure nothing does happen. I mean, you can do whatever you want. I mean, but I think it would. If you're trying to get through this pickle with. Without complicating it more, I think I would start with Guy A and see how he responds and then see how that. If that changes how you feel in general. Am I answering your question? And I don't know, he might be like, you know what? Fuck off. I never want to talk to you again. Then maybe you don't even need to really tell Guy B. You know?

[Caller Ally]

True.

[Nick Viall]

Because, you know, there's nothing really he needs to know at this point. But if you are confused and still want to try to date both these guys, then you have the right to do that. And I also just remember, you have the right to tell both these guys. They're only privy to so much information. Like, certainly anyone yet you're physical with has the right to know that if you're being physical with other people, like, that's just like a safe sex situation. But short of that, they, you're, if they're not your boyfriend, you don't need a permission to hang out with other people. You don't need a debrief. They don't, you don't need to tell them if you're going on other dates. If they ask you, you can decide to be up front, you know, but they don't, they, you have the right to be like, you know, listen, I, I'll, I'll be honest with you if I'm talking to other people, but I'm not gonna, like, I'm not gonna gab with you like one of the girls, you know.

[Caller Ally]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And then again, you can see how much they're willing to fight for it and they might quickly change your mind, but, you know, you have the right to be up front.

[Caller Ally]

True.

[Nick Viall]

But I really think, yeah, if you handle it this way, there's a good chance the decision will be made for you and you'll get clarity. And then worst case scenario, you have a chance to date both these guys and it gets a little confusing, but you know, whatever. I don't think you're gonna lose both these guys by being honest.

[Caller Ally]

Okay, thanks, that's helpful.

[Nick Viall]

But, but I, I am dying to know what happened, so please keep us updated.

[Caller Ally]

Okay, I will. All right, thanks, Nick.

[Nick Viall]

All right, take care. Bye. Bye.

[Caller Ally]

Bye.

[Nick Viall]

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[Caller]

Good. Hi Nick. My name's Grace. I'm 26 and my mom hates my husband and has tried to get me to divorce him.

[Nick Viall]

Okay. Do you hate your husband?

[Caller]

I do not. I love my husband.

[Nick Viall]

Oh, you don't want to get divorced then?

[Caller]

I do not want to get divorced. My mom is definitely the issue.

[Nick Viall]

Why does she want you to leave your husband?

[Caller]

So a lot of backstory on my mom. I promise it's all important, so bear with me here. But my mom had me when she was a teenager, so she never went to college, never got a job. She kind of just has always relied her entire life on her husband. Of note, she is on her third husband now, my stepdad, and she's kind of projected on me currently, like entire life, my entire life that I need to do life, quote unquote, the right way. So go to college, get a well paying job, then find a husband, then get married and have kids. But my husband and I are high school sweethearts and we, we also went to the same college together. So we dated for five years. I was in the middle of my doctorate program in college when we decided to go against my mom's wishes and get married. Anyway. I was young, I was 22 at the time, he was 23 and I had two more years left of school. So she was pretty much convinced that I would not finish my doctorate program, that I was just going to get married and get pregnant and quit school, which was not the case. So some backstory. My husband. Why she doesn't really like him from the very start. He comes from what she considers not a good family. His parents were both addicts. They were in and out of prison his entire life. His grandma pretty much raised him. But my husband saw how his parents chose to live their life. And he is an example of someone who knew that's not what he wanted for himself. And he has never dabbled in drugs or alcohol ever in his life. He's the first generation to go on to college. And I've tried explaining this to my mom and like, that's one of the best qualities about him and why I love him. But she still Thinks that because he comes from a bad family that he doesn't have good family values. So after we got married, what are.

[Nick Viall]

What are good family values?

[Caller]

She just thinks, like, you should want to take care of your parents. Like, when my husband and I got married, we kind of had this idea, like, now that we're married, like, once we have kids, like, this is our family now. You know, it's not like we don't care about our extended family and our. My parents and everything. It's just we moved three hours away from them, and she took issue with that. She thought that we should move back home where she lives. And it's like, our jobs are here now, and we now have children, and they're gonna go to school here.

[Nick Viall]

You guys have kids together?

[Caller]

We do, yes.

[Nick Viall]

She still wants you to get divorced?

[Caller]

She still wants me to get divorced, yes.

[Nick Viall]

How often does she bring this up?

[Caller]

Quite often. The.

[Nick Viall]

Like, she. She's just. She's just always talking about your husband.

[Caller]

Any chance she can get. Pretty much. To me, it's like she.

[Nick Viall]

Do it around him?

[Caller]

Not around him, but. Yeah. Not to his. Not to his face.

[Nick Viall]

Is he aware of how she feels?

[Caller]

He is. He is aware, yeah. So the biggest, I guess the time everything blew up was right after I had my daughter. She came to stay with us for a week. I was freshly postpartum, hormonal. I had postpartum depression, anxiety, the whole nine yards. And she was coming to stay with us. And everything aside about my husband that she already didn't like about him, this was the biggest turning point, I think, in our relationship and their relationship. She came to help when my daughter was a newborn, and she took issue with how my husband was taking care of our newborn, which was he would take a large shift during the night so that I could sleep. And the way he would stay awake is he would play video games, and he had the bassinet right next to him the whole time. If she ever woke up and cried, he'd pause his game and take care of her. Well, she thought because he was playing video games and had his headset on that he wasn't paying attention and would just neglect her, essentially. So that was the time when she blew up and we were on a walk with my daughter. My husband stayed back, and she told me, like, you know, if you want to leave him, we would help you and we would help support you. And I. I personally think you should divorce him because he's not going to help you with your kids, and you're gonna basically be a Single mom and he's just literally dad.

[Nick Viall]

He's literally staying up.

[Caller]

Yeah, exactly.

[Nick Viall]

I was honestly, I think is like, I mean, I have notes for your husband, but it' I'm like, go to bed, right? And just wake up when, when, when your daughter wakes up so your wife can sleep. But anyways, besides the point, you know. Yeah, but you're right. I mean, a newborn, they're little potatoes, right? You don't need to hover over them.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And then what was your response?

[Caller]

I guess I told her I thought that was ridiculous. And I thought she was kind of projecting because I know, like, when I was a newborn, my dad was not helpful at all. He was. Was the one working and she didn't work. So he kind of had the mentality like, you know, I should get to sleep all night because I have to go to work, so I'm not gonna help you. And so she kind of projected that onto me and I'm like, clearly that's not the case here. My husband is willing to take a large portion of the night shift, which I am so thankful for. A lot of dads don't do that. So, yeah, I took, you know, what he did as like, just him being a good dad. And that's how he chose to, to stay awake because he's one. Like, after he falls asleep, he. He probably wouldn't hear the baby wake up, honestly, because he's such a heavy sleeper. But even like the timing of when we had my daughter so we got married, I mentioned when I was 22, I still had a couple years left in my doctorate program. We actually unexpectedly got pregnant pretty soon after we got married. So I had my daughter, like in the middle of a pretty rigorous doctorate program. And my mom was like, telling her that I was pregnant. Like, you would have thought I was a teen mom, like, having to tell my parents that I was pregnant because she did not take the news well. She was like, see, I told you. So you're not going to finish your doctorate program. Like, you just got married and now you're going to have babies and now you're not going to have a good job and you're going to be dependent on your husband for the rest of your life and you're going to have a toxic marriage like I did. And I did prove her wrong. I finished my doctorate program and did it with a newborn. So. But yeah, she just every single part, like us getting married, us having kids when we did, how he parents, every single thing, she just nitpicks. And now whenever she comes around to, you know, babysit and be with her kids. My husband pretty much avoids her because he is aware of the situation. I've told him everything she said, and he's just, like, very avoidant. So he will try to busy himself with other things, and then she takes offense to that, like, he's ignoring her.

[Nick Viall]

How often does your mom still come around?

[Caller]

She comes about once a month, I'd say, which is why I need help, because she's in our life enough that, you know, this comes up a lot. And I. I do love my mom. You know, we've. We've had our issues, but her hatred towards my husband has just become something that. It's just a big thing in our relationship. And it's hard for me to move past this because I see her very differently now. It's. She can't love the person that I love the most in life, and it's hard.

[Nick Viall]

When was the last time you, like, like, talk to your mom about this and, like, confronted her?

[Caller]

So I'd say when I was pregnant with our second, I had to set a boundary with her that she would not be coming to stay with us for a full week like she did after our first was born, to help take care of the newborn with us because of what happened last time. And obviously she took offense to that. And I kind of explained why I was setting that boundary and what happened last time. And, you know, when I'm postpartum, I'm already in a pretty fragile state. So her being there and her husband or my husband and her mixing, I just knew that was not going to be a good thing. So I told her, you can come and, like, meet the baby. We want you to meet the baby, but I really don't want you lingering around. And, yeah, when I explained to her, like, why I was setting that boundary and what happened last time, her response is never to apologize. It's always, well, I didn't mean it like that. Or you took that the wrong way, or you misunderstood how I. How I meant that. It's never an apology. So it's really hard for me to forgive her when she has that. That way of speaking and never really owning up to what she did and apologizing.

[Nick Viall]

So I guess. What are you looking for help with? Well, how can I help? Because I don't, you know, you don't need clarity on your marriage, right?

[Caller]

Yeah, I guess I just needed your, like, outsider perspective. Like, do you think it's worth another confrontation? Because I'm actually. I'm pregnant with Our third. We're gonna have to.

[Nick Viall]

Congratulations.

[Caller]

Thank you. And so this is the conversation of her wanting to come more often to see the kids. It's gonna come up, and I'm just stuck between a rock and a hard place of do I just let this keep going on the way that it is, where they're very avoidant towards each other, and there's all this animosity that I can feel. It's palpable. And then once my kids get old enough that they can recognize that, like, do I just leave that elephant in the room, or do I try to have another confrontation with her? And how would you go about that? And, you know, with someone with this type of personality who will never apologize, how would you move forward with that, or can I.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, great. Great questions. So the goal is to just coexist with mom, if possible. Right. And to have her stop talking shit about your marriage and your husband and stop trying to convince you to do you to do something you don't want to do. So, yeah. Do I think it's worth having another conversation with mom? I do. Right. Like, the goal isn't to get her apologize. The goal is to get her to change her behavior whether she likes it or not. And I think it's just really important for you to remember that you are in the driver's seat here, whether that feels like it or not, you know, And I'm sure, you know, if you listen to the show, we often talk about, like, you know, these parent child dynamics and things like that. And so you've heard me talk about kind of like that weird transition from your mom being your sole primary caretaker and then you becoming an adult woman, and then quickly for use, especially, you really adulted quickly. Right. I think the conversation with mom goes like this. You sit her down and say, mom, first of all, love you. Obviously, you always start with the love. Right. And I know that you have my best interest in mind, and I really appreciate the fact that I know that you want the best from me, and I really feel that from you.

[Caller]

You.

[Nick Viall]

So thank you for looking out for me. However, as you know, you haven't been very supportive of my marriage, and that's been very, very frustrating. And while I appreciate your feedback, at times, you've crossed lines to the point where, like, it's just. It's disrespectful to me and my marriage, and you don't have to like it, but I do need you to respect it if you want to have a relationship with. With us. You're right. Like, I mean, good for your mom for thinking that she. It's your job to take care of her. And that's like, if you can, that's great. But you're right. It's not your job anymore. Your job is your immediate family. And as much and to the point that you want to be in this marriage, your job is to, like, protect your husband and his feelings and your children, and that is your family you're cultivating and creating and anyone else who is. Who wants to be a part of it. It sounds like you're your. The doors open for aunts and uncles and grandma and grandpa or whoever to be a part of your extended family. But your family is. The art is. Is your family. And whether that's hard to hear or not, that is something I think you need to make clear for mom. And whenever your mom throws a temper tantrum, which sounds like she does, you have to be quick not to engage in it and just say, mom, I'm sorry you're upset, but, like, I'm not here. You know, you can't listen to her. Like, the moment she tries to convince you or argue with you, you're not here to debate her. You know, it's like, mom, I'm just letting you know what I need from you in order for you to be a part of our lives, and so you're not. Look, you know what? You don't need the apology. What's that going to do? What you need to know is that she understands the new rules and respects your boundaries so that she can coexist with your husband. It's not your husband's job. I mean, I get. If I'm your husband, I'd be like, oh, I'm just gonna avoid this chick. I mean, your mom's a threat to him. You know, she's gonna try to break up my family. All he does is see her as a threat now. So I totally get where. Where he's coming from.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Right.

[Nick Viall]

And so, yeah, it's just more like, listen, if you can't do this, then I will have no choice than to distance myself from you, and I don't want that. But you can't show up at my house and my husband's house and disrespect him the way you disrespect him.

[Caller Kayleigh]

Him.

[Nick Viall]

Like, I don't want to hear your opinion about my marriage if you have nothing nice to say. I really appreciate you looking out for me. And if I ever need advice from you about my marriage, I will come to you. And if I ask for your advice, by all means, give it. But, like, at this point, it's not appreciated and it's, you know, whether your intentions are to help me or not, I do think you are projecting and I do think you are assuming the worst in my partner comments about his family. That's cruel and disrespectful and unfair. And I'm sure if you wanted to get nasty, you could. You know, you're on your third. Third marriage. I don't, you know, it's like, I don't need. I would try to avoid that. And that's the thing. Try not to stoop to her level, right? And you just, you have to be the adult in this relationship because your mom is acting like the kid. She's clearly afraid that she's going to lose her daughter, someone who's hasn't really had a successful love life of her own. So she's probably extra conn to you, and she is operating out of fear of you or of her losing. And. And you can say that, mom, like, listen, I'll always be your daughter. You're gonna have to accept me leaning into my marriage, into my family. But, like, I do want a relationship with you, but you make it harder. If you want this relationship to fizzle out, keep doing what you're doing. And I don't want that to happen. But you have to, if nothing else, be respectful and be kind and. And bring positive energy and make my husband feel welcomed in his own home. And if you can't do that, you won't be invited because, like, my number one concern right now isn't to make sure my kids have a relationship with their grandmother. My number one concern is my marriage and my family and how they feel around mom and dad. And while I want my kids to have a relationship with my grandmother, it won't be at the risk or the cost of alienating my husband. And you really just have to be very authoritative in that conversation because your mom will, like, want to sense for that little girl who's afraid to say that to mom, and chances are she will say something hurtful or mean, and you will have to prepare yourself for that and not react. And if she says something hurtful, you can just say, mom, that. First of all, that's what I'm saying you can't do. That's hurtful you to say that. I'm not even going to acknowledge what you said, and I'm not even going to respond to it other than the fact that if you keep doing that, we won't have a relationship. But I do love you, Mom. And I very much want you to be a part of our lives. And I. I would love nothing more for you to have a positive relationship with my husband. And if someday, mom, my marriage goes away, that I hope it doesn't, the last thing I want for is and I told you so. And that's. That's how you make me feel now. Because right now, if my relationship. Marriage doesn't work, it won't be because of you. But I certainly won't. You won't be the first person I go to because, like, you don't. You know, right now, it just seems like you want to be right, and you don't. You don't make me feel like you're looking at what's best for me. You make me feel you're looking out what's best for you. And, yeah, it's. It's really just about you having that very authoritative conversation with your mom where you are setting the rules, you are setting the boundaries, you are communicating your expectations. You are not here to debate. Discuss. I'm going to tell you what's up, and you should go think about it. And when you are ready to respect my rules and boundaries for my family, we are ready to welcome you with open arms.

[Caller]

Yep. Totally.

[Nick Viall]

Be willing, in this very authoritative conversation to express gratitude for your mom, for all that she has done and that you are appreciative and you do love her, but she has to stop this toxic behavior. And if she says things like, well, that you're you. That's not what it meant. You'd be like, mom. You literally. First of all, I'm not gonna debate with you. Second of all, you literally have told me to leave him. And again, I don't even need an apology. But your actions need to change. We have a problem if you don't see what I'm saying. I know you do. You need to see what I'm seeing, and I know that you do. And if you don't, then we don't. There's no conversation to have, Mom. You just, like, won't be invited. And then she may try to blame him for this conversation you're having with her and be like, mom, this is all me, not him. I'm saying this to you.

[Caller Ally]

You.

[Nick Viall]

So the choice is yours. Mom, I love you, and I, deep down in my heart, want you to have a relationship with me and our family. But you need to stop what you're doing.

[Caller]

Can I ask you a question?

[Nick Viall]

Sure.

[Caller]

So I brought this up in therapy. And my therapist suggested that I, similar to what you're saying, have a conversation with my mom, but she also thinks that I need to have a sit down with my mom and my husband in the same room. And I just don't even know how I would start that. Is that something you would do or do you think that's necessary?

[Nick Viall]

Why does your therapist think that? I'm just curious.

[Caller]

I mean, I think she, she's hoping because my husband's very non confrontational that, you know, and it's also not his mom, so he doesn't feel comfortable, you know, saying, these are the things that you've kind of said that have hurt me or things you've done that have hurt me. She thinks if I was there acting as kind of a middleman, it would help him open up to my mom more and maybe help her feel some remorse towards him.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, my opinion, and I'm not a therapist, so, you know, is that like this is not your husband's job to solve. He didn't start this. And why does he have to open up to your mom so that she can like empathize and feel for him? It's like, what has he done wrong? What has he done to make her feel like she's. She just assumes the worst in him. Him?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

I really think she needs to hear from you. Like, this is how you feel and you feel like it's disrespectful and you want it to stop. If you have a conversation, the two of them and you playing mediator, you didn't call up and say, oh, my husband and my mom constantly fight. And I don't, you know, and I just feel like I'm in the middle of it. Sometimes I agree with my mom and sometimes I agree with my husband, but they're just at each other's throats. Like, that's not the picture you're painting. Unless I'm wrong, it is. Mom. Mom is constantly attacking my marriage and indirectly constantly attacking my husband. And she talks behind his back. And she makes it pretty clear with her energy that she doesn't with my husband. And it makes my husband feel a certain way. I just don't know why your husband should be responsible to like sit in this like therapy room to be like, well, can I, can I just be vulnerable right now and open up to you and have you and have. And you make sure that your mom's listening. It's like, this is between you and your mom.

[Caller Ally]

Mom.

[Caller]

Right.

[Nick Viall]

You know, your mom not believing that you had it what it takes to finish school and. And be a mom and work on your marriage. I mean, your mom basically projected all of her failures onto you and assumed you would make the same mistakes. And to me, that's like a conversation that you should have with your mom.

[Caller]

Yeah, I agree.

[Nick Viall]

I think there might be a time where you can, you know, have that conversation, but you could have that conversation with your mom and your husband and. And not feel like you got your point across. So that's what I think.

[Caller]

That makes sense.

[Nick Viall]

Her level of comfort to talk the shit she's talked about your husband. She shouldn't feel that comfortable. Like, again, you've been dating this guy since high school, and it's not like at any point she witnessed him, correct me if I'm wrong, like, speaking to you in a manner that was disrespectful or treating you. You didn't go. You haven't gone to your mom and, like, constantly complained about him, and you haven't, like, cried in your mom's arms because he's cheated on you or done all these terrible things that again, many people will, you know, put up with in merit in marriages or. Or dating situations. And then they will. They will go to the parents and cry and complain, and then parents will be very frustrated because they want to support their kids. But it's just like, I'm. How am I supposed to support this guy when you've done nothing but complain to him about me? You know? But that's not what's going on. It's just like your mom is just projecting onto you and feels a level of comfort to say whatever the fuck she wants without even considering how disrespectful it is and how mean it can be. And just also just, like, disheartening and just very discouraging. And for you to be like, well, thanks for. Thanks for believing in me. And so to me, it's really about you and your mom's relationship. Setting new expectations and boundaries with your mom and making sure she respects you. She doesn't respect you or your choices.

[Caller]

Yeah, I think that's a little bit of it. And then there's another added layer. Like, if you're familiar with the idea of, like, a toxic boy mom who's in love with her son because her husband doesn't fulfill what she needs in a relationship, there's a little bit of that going on. I wouldn't say she's, like, in love with me, but it's her current husband. My stepdad is away a lot for work. And so she's alone a lot. She's an empty nester now. And so she wants me to be around and to fulfill that relationship. You know, someone to talk to every single day. And now that I totally. My husband and my family, it's just. It's not like that anymore. I don't necessarily, like, I'll text her every day, but I don't have time to call her every day anymore. And.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, and that's, you know, I'm sad for your mom. I. You know, and that, like, sucks.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

But the best you can do is to say, mom, I'm sorry I can't give you what you want, but here's what I can. But I can't even give you that if you're not going to respect me or my marriage. And when I do call you, I want to have a positive relationship with you and I want to talk about the things we want to talk about. I don't want to be defending me and my choices or be made to feel guilty about me prioritizing my family.

[Caller]

Yeah, I would agree. Alrighty. Well, thank you. This was very helpful.

[Nick Viall]

All right, well, I'm glad. Please keep us posted. I'd love to know how that conversation goes.

[Caller]

Will do. Will do.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. And just, again, always, just make sure to check in with your husband and ask how he's feeling. And again, if he wants to talk to your mom, you can help facilitate that. But yeah, I would, you know, hey, our therapist thinks you need to have this sit down with my mom. If, like, he's like, well, okay, I know. To do what? Yeah, he's not going to want to convince her to like him.

[Caller]

Yeah. And I don't even know if that's possible at this point. You know, if. If they'll ever get to a point where they are best friends or like, love each other like mother and son. I don't just. I just don't see us getting to that point ever.

[Nick Viall]

Well, to me, it comes down to. Again, it's gonna require her to accept your boundaries and see you as an adult and respect you as an adult, get over her own fears and insecurities about loneliness, which are understandable in her position, and then start making some changes.

[Caller]

Sounds good.

[Nick Viall]

All right, keep us posted.

[Caller]

Will do. Thank you so much, Nick. And congrats on your guys's twins. I'm so excited for you guys.

[Nick Viall]

Thank you. We're very.

[Caller]

So deserving.

[Nick Viall]

I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[Nick Viall]

All right, bye. Bye.

[Caller]

Bye.