← The Viall Files
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- [00:00]
Nick Viall
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- [03:49]
Madison
You're crazy.
- [04:00]
Nick Viall
How's it going?
- [04:01]
Allie
Hi, I'm Allie, I'm 31, I lost £200, went on 48 dates last year and I've still never had a boyfriend.
- [04:09]
Nick Viall
Okay. All right, well tell me more.
- [04:13]
Allie
Yeah, I mean I was a late bloomer to dating. I like made it my 2025 resolution to like go at it really hard. Someone told me like dating is about getting your reps in. So I took that literally and went on a date with like anyone I could get with, get a match with. I also went to like nine dating events on top of that, speed dating mixers. So I met a lot of people. I got in a few like situationships, got close, but I feel like my lack of experience ended up turning people off and it's not something I can change. But I'm just wondering like, how do I communicate that?
- [04:51]
Nick Viall
Maybe better luck, maybe you don't have to communicate it. Walk me through what you think would be like a typical conversation you would have on like a first or second date when, when kind of talking yourself as it relates to like dating history or things like that or what are some things that you found yourself often saying is like your talk track or your pitch or what, you know.
- [05:12]
Allie
Yeah, I mean I feel like that comes up in the first few dates. Especially like I on the apps I have. Like I want a long term relationship. That's who I'm matching with people who I'm hoping are similarly minded. So I think that comes up like how long have you been single? When was your last relationship? Because that's something also I want to know about them pretty early on to be fair. I guess. So I think I have maybe gotten better in some ways about not coming out with like, guess what? I've never been in a relationship, but it does feel like something I don't want to lie about either.
- [05:41]
Nick Viall
Well, I mean like maybe it's just not. I, I would be willing to bet you're. You're internalizing it or maybe that's not the word or making it way more of a thing than it actually is and then projecting that in ways you're not realizing on dates regarding your weight loss. Does that ever come up?
- [06:03]
Allie
Oh yeah. And I think that's like another big part of this too. I mean I don't like, I've learned not also to lead with that because I feel like that also. I'm not honestly sure which one it is that is making me not have luck because there were four times in the last year where I dated, like kind of got in situationships, got close and then things kind of ended out of the blue. And I feel like it is when they start kind of start to put it together either like, I mean you can kind of tell. I think at a certain point I have like loose skin and stuff like that. Or if they found old pictures of me online or, and or the lack of relationship because I have had people explicitly say like that's a concern for me. And maybe that's just the reason they're giving me to because they don't want to be a dick and say something about weight loss.
- [06:52]
Nick Viall
But I think there could be some truth to that. Yeah, I think, yeah. You know them saying, oh well, your lack of a dating experience is a concern for me. I don't think I've ever met a man who really gave a shit about it. At the end of the day, if you are what they really wanted, so to speak. And by you, I mean just like anyone and you're Right. Yeah, it's. It's just a lot. It's. That sounds like a lot nicer than I, you know, but I would imagine, you know, to think about your typical assumptions people might make, you know, how did you lose it? You know, a lot of those potentially really rude and kind of. Yeah, just, you know, things like that. I would be willing to bet it's. It's a lot. Any. Any guy who says that's a concern is. Is probably lying to you about that.
- [07:39]
Allie
Yeah. That is, like, such a tough pill to swallow. And I think I, like, knew that deep down. But I like. The reason why I wrote in is because. I mean, I've, like, listened for a long time because I, like, wanted another opinion on it, because my friends say certain things. My friends. Boyfriends say certain things, I think because they want to be nice to me. But it does feel like the weight loss is such a big thing that I'm having to fight against, which sucks because I worked so hard, and, like, I think it's made me a better person in a lot of ways, going through this experience.
- [08:08]
Nick Viall
For sure.
- [08:08]
Allie
Well, I'm going to be a better partner.
- [08:10]
Nick Viall
You have to. You know, I think, one. You really got to give yourself some grace here. I think there's a lot going on at once with you, you know,
- [08:20]
Haley
and
- [08:21]
Nick Viall
you're just, I think, having a harder time processing it. Going on 48 dates in a year is a lot, you know, and on, you know, I don't know, some level. I commend you. You're right. Because, like, dating is for someone who felt like they didn't have a lot, who lacked experience, and I imagine with your weight loss, it. You gain more confidence in your ability to go out there, and. And you probably felt like people, especially initially reacted differently to you and things like that, and that was probably exciting, but on some level. Well, I mean, it's a little extreme. Right. But you were very intentional. It sounds like you're like, I'm gonna go on a lot of dates. Like, it was you. You knew what you were doing, and you did. And I. I hope and I imagine you got a lot of practice, right? You. You. I hope and I imagine, like, within those 48 dates, there were some fun, exciting moments.
- [09:12]
Madison
There were.
- [09:13]
Allie
Yeah, that's the thing I can say I got a lot of experience. It was tough because I feel like I went. And like, even still now I'm going through things that, like, my friends went through at, like, 21, 22, and I'm. I'm 31, so. It's kind of weird. Like, even since I wrote in, I had, like, yet another situationship that just ended Sunday. So I've actually. It's funny, like, now talking, because I kind of resolved in the last, like, few days to just give up for a little bit. Not give up, but, like, take a break, because the juice does not seem worth the squeeze.
- [09:48]
Nick Viall
Well, I think after 48 dates in a year, a break could be good, you know, a little vacation from dating. Yeah. What did you. I mean, I'm curious. What. What. What are some experiences that you learn from?
- [10:02]
Allie
I'm actually, like, curious how you would react to this. What?
- [10:05]
Haley
My.
- [10:07]
Allie
Like, one of my major takeaways is that I feel like men don't think as much about what they do or say, and women overthink. Like, to me, there were moments where someone would say something or, like, do something if it was, like, kissing my forehead, like, gazing into my eyes, like, saying how much fun they're having and how much they care about me. And I would take that as, oh, this is good. They're into me. Like, this is going somewhere. And so when it ended, I would be, like, really upset over it. But I think looking back now, I'm like, oh, I think a lot of the times they're just saying that, where I wouldn't necessarily say anything like that or, like, gaze into their eyes lovingly if that didn't mean something to me.
- [10:51]
Nick Viall
Yeah.
- [10:52]
Allie
And I realize that's a wide brush to paint with, but I feel like it's actually kind of true.
- [10:57]
Nick Viall
Yeah. I think there's a lot of truth to it, I think. Yeah. I think. I think in general, in dating, especially when it comes to, like, emotional moments, you know, I think women probably. It's probably fair to say women are more intentional than men. Yeah. And I also think a lot of men are, you know, trying things, maybe not trying things out, but it's just like, you know, you. You want to be suave, and you're. You're. You want to be a romantic, and you want to, like. Yeah, they're, like, living in the moment. And also, like, I. You know, I've. I've. I've felt that at times as a guy, you know, and hell, it felt like that when I was a bachelor where there are a lot of moments. You know, granted, it's different because, you know, there's one. One of them, as many of me. And, you know, and as the lead, you realize you do have to fake feelings, and you do have to kind of be insincere. On the flip side, on the. On the receiving end, you're. You're reading in every little moment, you're like, but you. But you said that to me and you. We had that moment. You know, there was, you know, moment that comes to mind is when at the end of the second Bachelorette, you know, it was like, what? You. Why did you say you loved me? And she's like, but I did. And I was like, you know, you didn't. You're about to pick someone else. And. And. And. And then she goes, this is how. That's how I felt in the moment. And I was like, how I felt for you was greater than a moment. I thought it was, like, all suave and things like that. And, you know, but that. That I think is often true in dating is that, like, some of us are a little bit more intentional. Some of us are a little bit more reserved. Some people are just like, if it feels good in this moment, let's just go with it. And, like, it's. And, like, I don't know, like, I looked into your eyes and gave you a kiss, and, you know, in that moment, I felt these feelings that felt like love. So I. It. I said, I love you. You know, like, you know, why is there that. Why is that a crime? You know, And I think, you know, I don't. What you. What you do with that. I don't know. I mean, I think the reality is. I think you. You kind of. It's. I think these dates that you went on over the past year will, you know, you've definitely played catch up, you know, and I think more than anything. Well, yeah, I don't think you need to give up. I think a break is nice, But I think 48 dates in a year, whatever you lost and experience, you know, I think you've. You're. You've. You've caught up. So I think now maybe you can just kind of go at a pace that you're more comfortable with. And I think you. Now, you can be a lot pickier about who you go on dates with and who you open up with. And now when you start dating, like, you're gonna have to strike that balance between cynicism and optimism, you know? Like, I've. I've said this before, and I've talked about this like, you know, when I was in my early 20s, I was definitely more of, like, the young, I guess, hopeless romantic kind of, you know, like, I. You know, and I think a lot of people are. It's just, like, you feel good feelings early on and like, this feels good. So let's, let's date. You know, let's. This, this can't be bad. So, yeah, of course I would want to be your boyfriend if you would like to be my girlfriend, you know, and then you date and you fight and whatever, you break up. And then as you get older as well as I got older, you know, experiences that you have, right? Like that experience on a TV show, as silly as it was like, you know, was a bit of a learning lesson for me where it's just like, yes, some people don't think like me or operate like me. So now I can be, you know, when people say things to me, I'm not just quick to, like, be so naive to assume I'm that great. Right. You know, it's just like, you know, because when you're younger and you have high confidence in yourself, you're like, of course you love me. You know, I'm sure there might. And on your case, like, I hope you got a lot more confidence from all this hard work you put into yourself. On the flip side, that confidence might have been a bit of a, a catch 22. Your, your subconscious brain been like, yeah, I mean, like, who would, you know, who wouldn't want this at this point, right? And then, you know, in a way, and then like, you, they change their mind and it kind of fucks with you a little bit. But. But yeah, I think maturing and dating is, is kind of striking. That healthy balance between not being kind of so gullible with your feelings and, and, and controlling your ego in terms of accepting that, like, not everyone is in love with you, not everyone fucks with you, you're not everyone's type. That's totally okay. Every time you get rejected, your ego is going to tell you the reason they rejected you is because of your greatest insecurities. You know, it must be this. And in some cases it might be true. Like you asked me, it's just like I kind of suspected, like, it might be more the weight loss than the lack of dating history. And again, I'm just giving you my opinion. I could totally be wrong, but I, I think, yeah, more likely than not, I, I think while a lack of experience might be slightly, might be a small red flag for a guy, but, you know, short of you really acting like you don't have experience, I think it's as easier to, you know, it's. No one wants to be a dick. You know, I'm kind of rambling now. I don't know if Any of this is helpful.
- [16:03]
Allie
Yeah, no, I mean, like, I think to your point, I was like, I went into this kind of naive, and I also identify as a hopeless romantic, and I think I just had expectations about what dating would be like.
- [16:14]
Nick Viall
Like, what were those expectations?
- [16:16]
Allie
I watched for a long time, my whole 20s, I, like, yeah, I was single, watching my friends get in and out of relationships, talking about dating, and I, like, never really thought, I never really thought that was gonna happen for me. So when it did, I think I learned fast that it's not what I thought it was gonna be, which is, like, sad, to your point, about, like, balancing cynicism, because I feel pretty jaded now and being open.
- [16:41]
Nick Viall
Well, you're hot. You're 31, you said. Yeah, well, again, you've, you've caught up. Because I think a lot of 31s out there dating are very cynical and, and frustrated. So, you know, again, you know, I, I, I really think it's important for you to try to find ways to look at the positives, right? You're, you're kind of a new, Experiencing a new world, and, and you're gonna have a lot of expectations. I, you know, I'm sure there's a part of, yeah, like, look what I did. What a huge accomplishment. And then as soon as you felt rejected in any way, that must have been a really difficult moment because it was like, whoa, I put in all this work. I finally did the thing. And what was what I told myself or what was holding me back for so many years is no longer holding me back. And then you go out on dates, and even though the narrative's a little different, where it's just like, hey, I don't, this is not who I am anymore, but I used to be that way. I'm not this way anymore. And then it feels like, well, yeah, but I'm still gonna judge you for who you used to be and not who you are today, you know, and then that must felt really defeating, you know, on the flip side, you know, think about it this way. Like, put it, like, imagine like the person who, let's say at some point early in the 20s, cheats on their partner. You know, whether it was like a, Whatever the reason why. Right. But let's say, let's say that really affected them. You know, their partner broke up with them. It, you know, they did some work. You know, they, they maybe explored why they made those choices, maybe got into some therapy, maybe discovered some, like, past childhood traumas about why, you know, what, what may have played A role and then searching for that validation outside of a relationship and things like that. And they go out and start dating again and then, you know, they're on a date and you're on date too. And you know, like, well, and so, you know, gotta ask, have you ever cheated on your partner? And, and doing. Being the person they want to do, they want to do. Be honest they want to do, they want to put the work. And they're going to be. Of course they're going to be honest. Why I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie about as a cheater because that's what, that's what I used to do in the past. And then imagine a lot of people being like, why I. I'm sorry. Once a cheater, always a cheater. And I've been cheated on before, you know, you know what I'm saying? Like, very probably a very similar kind of feeling that you might feel, right? And this is all to say, like, you're not alone when it comes to those types of feelings. And I think everyone on some level will always again feel rejected for similarly. And I, yeah, I really believe that. I think, you know, people might not like us for whatever reason. Maybe there's not their type, you know, And I would, I would guarantee that whoever of the majority of those men who you felt rejected by, it was neither the experience or the weight loss. It was just, I don't know, she's just not my. She's just not my person that, that, that I'm. That I'm certain of.
- [19:39]
Allie
Well, there's something interesting to me with all these experiences that I'm trying to figure out, like, how do I get better at this in the future? And maybe there's not a way to do that, but it's like I've had. And now with this last one five of these experiences where we get like two months in and so it's not like they go on one or two dates with me and they find, you know, something about my personality or my future goals that's not going to work. They like, give me a few months and then once I think the stuff about weight loss or like, things get more physical and they like, figure out what that means. Like, like, it does feel like kind of funny to me that it. Because if it was something that was just personality or incompatibility, why are they stretching it out that long?
- [20:21]
Nick Viall
Well, I don't think you get to know someone in two months earlier.
- [20:25]
Allie
I don't know.
- [20:26]
Nick Viall
I imagine it's a Mix.
- [20:28]
Allie
It feels funny because it's been like, about the same.
- [20:31]
Nick Viall
Like, are you. Is that like the same time you're like, taking clothes off and hooking up and. Or like, kind of.
- [20:38]
Allie
And I mean, another part of this, which is a whole other tangent, is that I'm also a virgin. For like. Which probably was clear, but that is like a whole other thing too with like, the inexperience and the weight loss,
- [20:51]
Nick Viall
I mean, I guess. But it doesn't need. I think that's really only a turn off to the degree that you make it a big deal. And I understand that it probably is a big deal to you, but I don't know, in your case, your. Your virginity is, I'm guessing, centered around just your lack of dating experience.
- [21:08]
Haley
Yeah.
- [21:09]
Nick Viall
Which makes sense, right? It's not, you know, it's not some. You didn't make some, like, big decision. You know, you aren't like, saving yourself for marriage or, you know, it just. You just. It just didn't happen. So the more you make it a thing, the more it's a thing, you know? I don't know if this applies to anything you're thinking or feeling, but literally last night. Have you heard of the black coffee theory?
- [21:31]
Allie
No.
- [21:31]
Nick Viall
Okay. I saw this on. I saw this on Twitter. Don't know if it relates to you, but I was really like, that's fucking great. So apparent, like, the black coffee theory goes something like this. A guy goes into a coffee shop and he wants a latte, but he goes up to the front desk, he's at the Starbucks, and he's like. And she goes, what? So can I take your order? And he goes, all I know is I don't want a black coffee. And she's like, I don't, like, well, what do you want? He's like, I don't want a black coffee. I just. All I know is I don't want a black coffee. And she's kind of like, okay, I guess. And then she kind of like, you know, has a bunch of other orders. It's chaotic, as the coffee shops often are. And then it's time to get to serving this man his order. All she can remember is black coffee. So she just brings him a black coffee. And the premise being is it's like if you focus on what you don't want in your life, whether you speak it out loud or say it to your. Your friends or the people you're on dates with, or internalize those thoughts and feelings, that will still be the thing that, you know, brings that shows up in your life because that is where your energy and thoughts and feelings are going and things like that. And it was like a really profound thing that I was just like, that's so, like, I don't know how that applies to me, but I'm sure, you know, but like, where your energy goes and you, what you fixate on, and if you fixate on what you don't want, you will still probably get what you don't want more often than not. You know, you don't want to be a virgin anymore. You don't want to feel rejected by my men who, who are judging you for, for having, you know, having a different weight in the past. You don't want men to judge you for your lack of experience or whatever. If, if that's where your thoughts and feelings are going, it will probably show up in that way. And so a lot of I'm, I'd be willing, you know, like, of course you're going to meet judgmental people in life. Yes. Some people to, you know, no matter what, you know, judge you for that. But how you internalize that and how you process that and how you move through the world will play a bigger role and, and how on, on how often that shows up. I, I, I mean, I really think that's true.
- [23:35]
Allie
Yeah, no, that's, that is a good point. And I think it kind of gets at maybe what's underneath all of these things. I think with dating, because there are judgmental people, I feel like maybe my, like, mindset or the way I'm showing up is that okay. I feel like I have all these things working against me. I'm a virgin. I don't have relationship experience. I, like, used to look a lot different a few years ago, and it went through weight loss and have loose skin. And so I feel like I'm always on the defensive with that, and maybe that's coming. Yeah, across.
- [24:05]
Nick Viall
I mean, listen, I, I've talked to you for 15 minutes now. You're a beautiful person. You seem like you have a great personality. You're like, you, I don't know. I don't. You seem smart, you know, like, you have a presence. You know, I don't know if that's how you feel about yourself, but, like, it's, it seems, you know, that that is, that is the first impression I had of you. You don't even look inexperienced, and I don't even know what that means. You know what I'm saying? You don't talk, you don't talk like you don't know anything. You know, you also now are not inexperienced. You've been on 48 dates. I don't know if I've been on 48 dates in my life probably, but I honestly that seems like a lot, you know, I definitely have. I want, you know, when I moved to la, I was going a lot of coffee dates.
- [24:48]
Allie
They added quickly.
- [24:50]
Nick Viall
Yeah, no, they, they do and good for you. But like I think a lot, I think now pat yourself on the back for being courageous to get yourself out there. You got the experience, no regrets. You know, you, you know, you got to focus on, you really got to try to focus on those fun moments that you had, the adventures that you had. Yes, I'm sure within that there were some rejections and things like that. No doubt some of the men that rejected you in the situationship, they just beat you to the punch. They were not your guy. You wouldn't have end up falling in love with them. You know, you just, they just beat you to the punch. And you are probably this mindset of. And I think that's where this black coffee theory could really like apply to you is like you now have this like I can't get a boyfriend, you know, I can't lose my virginity, you know, kind of mindset. And there's a, you know, and that will affect your decision making where you're just going to be like, I honestly don't give a. I just like I'm just. I want to see if I can get this guy to be my boyfriend. I want to see if I can get laid. And like that's not a great way to go about getting a boyfriend or to have sex or and lose your virginity. I mean, as far as losing your virginity, my hope for you, it's as awkward and silly as it was for most people. I mean, I'm halfway kidding maybe as I, you know, I don't know what you want. What I hope you get is whatever. I hope it's whatever you want it to be. But if you want to have some fun and, and I hope you have a chance to do that too. You know, you, you've mentioned loose skin a few times. Is that something that it seems to be something that you is. Is in if nothing else in your head and you think is an issue?
- [26:24]
Allie
Yeah, I mean, because it's kind of the dead giveaway. One of these, like one of the most meaningful connections I have was, I think actually technically love bombing by him. But I remember like early on he like said something and he's like, oh, and like your weight loss. And I hadn't brought it up yet, and I was like, what do you. Like, how do you know about that? And he was like, well, your skin, like, which, like, fair. It is, like, obvious. And I am getting skin removal surgery like, next month so that, like, I mean, it won't take care of everything, but it'll take care of, like, a good portion of it. I think you'll still probably be able to tell. Like, it's not going to look like. I probably would if I never would have been as heavy as I was, but. So that's like, something, I guess.
- [27:10]
Nick Viall
But is that something in addition to the procedure that over time will improve, or is it or not?
- [27:17]
Allie
No, it's kind of like once you, like, if you're heavy enough, which I was like, you stretch out your skin, it doesn't snap back. It will to a certain extent, but, like, there will be, like, stretch marks and stuff like that too.
- [27:29]
Nick Viall
Oh, we all have stretch marks, you know, Some of the others, I mean.
- [27:32]
Allie
Yeah, you know, so I'll. I mean, and I don't, like, want or, like, need a perfect body. I don't need my partner to have a perfect body either, but I think that'll help. Maybe. I don't know.
- [27:43]
Nick Viall
Who are some of the men that you're. You're dating? Is it a pretty wide spectrum or have you kind of. Yeah. What are they like?
- [27:50]
Allie
Yeah, physically, I guess most of them have been older. I mean, like, physically. Physically, it's kind of been all over. I've been surprised by some of the people that I ended up, like, seeing for longer than I would have thought originally. Like, I saw, like, someone who, like, was a smoker, for example, and that normally would be a deal breaker, but we hit it off and I was, like, willing to figure it out. And to your point, he probably beat me to the punch because that wouldn't have worked for me long term. But I was, like, willing to do that because there was a connection and. And there were other things that I felt outweighed that. But, yeah, kind of all over the place. And it's been, like, interesting, too, to your point about me having confidence. It's like this yes and no thing. It is amazing when I am on hinge and I have a ton of matches and I can get a date if I want a date. Not to sound like I'm super hot, but I can. If I want to have a date, I can find one. But it is kind of always in the back of my mind. Like, I would not be on this date probably if they met me three years ago. And so that's like a bit of a mental. I mean, I'm in therapy and stuff, and it's like just an unfortunate, like, reality of culture and society right now.
- [29:02]
Nick Viall
I mean, but like, I guess who
- [29:03]
Allie
it is, this, who cares?
- [29:05]
Nick Viall
What does that. I mean, like, what is that? You know, okay, you know, like, people change, People evolve. Who cares if they wouldn't go on a date with you three years ago, you know?
- [29:15]
Haley
Yeah.
- [29:16]
Nick Viall
I mean, your mindset is definitely your biggest obstacle, you know, And I think all your thoughts and feelings are more than valid and understandable. But, like, again, with most of us, it really just comes down to how do we, how do we internalize our insecurities and how we stop from projecting them. And, you know, I wonder if. If that black coffee theory really applies to you in a lot of ways, because I think, you know, you, you have all these, like, mental hurdles when it comes to why you're not getting what you want. And you have these narratives in your head and whether there's any truth to parts of them or not, like, I don't think that really makes a difference tnc, you know? You know what I'm saying? Like, you, you're like, oh, do you think men are. Are being honest when they say it's a lack of experience versus the, you know, you're like, I've never had a guy tell me he didn't want to date me because I've lost weight, you know, but I think maybe at least some of them that was the truth. And, you know, I was like, well, your, your instincts are probably right, but like, who cares? You know what I'm saying? Like, what, what, what does that really matter? You know, we all want to know a reason, you know, and I think that's our egos trying to control the narrative. You know, it's like, well, just tell me why, why, why? What did I do wrong? You know, because, you know, you want to sit, you want to hear what you're doing wrong because you want to be able to fix it. You're like, oh, you don't like that about me? Just tell me, I'll change it. I can improve it. You know, and then there's a part of you who's, who's done so much work and self improvement. There must be a lot, you know, and on some level, a lot of confidence. It's like, yeah, just tell me. I've already lost £200. I'm in therapy, I've done this X, Y and Z. You know, tell me, I'll just do it. You know, I've already done this, and I think we just have to be careful about that. Where it's just like, you know. Yeah. One of the most useless conversations I think people have in life is the why don't you like me anymore? Or why don't you want to date me? Yeah, I understand it, but, like, it's not productive. It doesn't get us anything. It's. I don't think it's ever changed anyone's mind. And all it does is really activate your ego. And then in a way, you know, not even in a way, but like, and sometimes maybe it's just to a certain degree you start changing who you are based off someone who's no longer in your life. You know, it's like, you know, one thing I noticed about reality TV characters, and what really causes a reality TV character in my mind lose themselves, is when they start really obsessively reading comments or even worse, going on Reddit and reading, basically people having conversations with them. And while that is a very challenging thing to do, and I understand why people can do it, but they, they will it. They, they'll change who they are. You know, they will, they will start responding, not necessarily literally like in the, on, on the keyboard, but they'll be like, oh, well, these people think this of me. So I guess I'll. I want to do the thing that's different. Or at least I want to show. I want to. I want to, I want. I'm going to at least pretend that I'm different, they said, I suppose more of that. I'll post more of that I should do. I should say this, I'll say more of that. You know, they completely lose who they are because they're out there taking the advice from people they don't even know are real. For one. They probably wouldn't ask their advice, but they're, they're, they're, you know, you know, in a, On a very kind of met. Not meta, I don't know, larger scale. But the Internet is telling them what's wrong with them. The Internet is rejecting them. They're saying, I don't like this person. I don't, I don't. With this person. I don't, you know, yada, yada, yada. And that person is literally that kind of like, insecure person who feels rejected, being like, well, why don't you, why don't you like me? Like, why don't you want to date me? And they're like, well, I'll tell you exactly why. Because it's the Internet and I can do that. And they're like, okay, well, let me do something about that so you can like me. And then they go back to Internet and they like, wonder if, like, oh, do they like me now? Well, then there's a whole another lineup of people be like, well, no. Yeah, but I don't like that. Fuck that, you know, and. And it's just like, it's a really sad. Sad. I mean, it happens all the time. But that is kind of. That is kind of what, like, it is when people are dating and. Or in relationships where it's just like, but tell me why, you know, like, I don't know. When you just don't want to date someone, you just don't want to date someone. And, and is the reason really going to make a difference, you know?
- [33:22]
Allie
Yeah, no, that's. That's really helpful. And honestly, it's funny. My next question to you is going to be like, well, so, like, when do I say this? When do I drop this bomb about the weight loss? But maybe it. And I, I would be curious if you do have an answer to that. But maybe it is less about, like, worrying about their reaction and more about, like, just owning what, like, I can't change and what my experience is.
- [33:47]
Nick Viall
I think that, I mean, my answer, my opinion, and it's definitely just his opinion is like, not, not never. I don't. To your point, I would love for you not to wonder when I need to tell this person, like, when you go on a date, you start liking them. I would love for you to be like, I don't know. I don't. It's not, I don't think. It's not a thing. I'm gonna, I don't need to address it. Certainly might come up at some point. You mentioned loose skin. Maybe they might notice that. I don't know. You know, things like that you might, you know, grow an emotional connection with a man and feel really safe. Where you do want to open up because you do want to feel accepted. It is clear insecurity you have. We all have those insecurities. And when we really connect with someone, love someone, and that moment where you re like, that's when you really build emotional connection. Where you know you have someone is because you have these things that you're afraid they will reject you. You know, I lost a lot of weight. I cheated on someone in the past. I, you know, I, you know, men might be like, I'm kind of losing my hair, and I'm just like, I don't know. She. You know, things like that. And then you kind of let that person know and they go, I, you know. Yeah, I know. I. Yeah, I saw your. Your hair is, like, not as thick as my last boyfriend. I don't care. He was a dick. And I love you. And you're just like, oh, my God, like, she loves me. You know, like, and it's such a great feeling to, like, have that person accept you and. And accept your insecurities in ways that you're not going to change, you know? And so more than anything, you know. Yeah. That's how I would love for you to address that and not feel like, okay, is it the second or third date? Is it fourth date? Is the fifth date? Is it, like, is it right before we hook up? Is it. No, I don't think you have to really think about that when you try not to.
- [35:26]
Allie
Yeah, Yeah, I. I can definitely give that a try.
- [35:29]
Nick Viall
And especially with the experience. I mean, like, I get. I get the, you know, like, there. There are some things you can't hide. Right. You. You mentioned the loose skin. But your dating experience, you're no longer an experience for one. And. And the virginity. Who cares? You know? I don't. Who cares? Like, I don't. Honestly, like, if. If you never told anyone, sex for the first time for most people is awkward, and I don't care if you've had a lot of sex. And. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, again, if you want to tell someone because you feel really safe and secure with them and it's something you want to know, great, but it is not someone. I don't think it's something you owe anyone.
- [36:04]
Madison
Yeah.
- [36:05]
Allie
So, yeah, that's like a different way of looking at it, for sure. And I think I need that.
- [36:09]
Nick Viall
So. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. The two of the three things that are holding you back, two of them you completely erase because, again, one, you're not inexperienced anymore. And two, I don't know. The virginity thing is kind of. It's only a thing if you make it a thing.
- [36:27]
Haley
Yeah.
- [36:28]
Allie
And if they make it a thing, I have.
- [36:30]
Nick Viall
Well, they don't have to know. They don't have to know.
- [36:32]
Allie
Yeah. And that was my problem because I told him and made it a big deal. And then his whole thing was like, well, now I have all this pressure to make these first experiences good for you. And I was like, I didn't ask you to do that. So sometimes they take it and Run away with it. But once I tell them, then I lose control. Control over anyway.
- [36:48]
Nick Viall
Yeah, I don't. But not big on lying, but if you. You know. So even though it hasn't. So how many people hooked up with. First of all, it's kind of a. I don't know. It's a weird question in 2026, I think. I don't know. Put it the. You know, I, you know, like, if. If most people lie about how their number. Right.
- [37:08]
Haley
You know, the.
- [37:09]
Nick Viall
The. And the. The trope is, you know, guys will subtract a few numbers. Women might add a few numbers. I don't. I don't know which one it is. Maybe. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe it's the opposite. I don't know, actually. I really don't. But people often lie. And sometimes people lie because they literally don't know the number. I don't know the number. Men don't, like, make lists. I know a lot of women who literally, like, they haven't have a notes app of, like, you know, the eight or 13 guys that they hooked up with and there's names and things like that. And I don't have one of those, you know. And my point being is, like, you only know the number because it's an easy number to remember. But, like, who's, like, you know, who gives a. And I'll also say, is this, like, just to avoid that moment? Be like, yeah, I don't have a lot of experience, but, like, yeah, I don't. I put it this way. It's all I need is one hand to count the number of guys I've slept with.
- [38:00]
Madison
Yeah.
- [38:01]
Allie
Yeah. I can just leave it there.
- [38:03]
Nick Viall
I literally, you know, you're not lying, you know, but you're also like, you know, because, you know, because a lot of guys will. A lot of guys will make it a thing. They'll make. Make it about them. They'll internalize. It's just like, no, this is not, like, your opportunity to be like, I don't. I'm not looking for a knight in shining armor. And I don't. I don't. Like, was your first time having sex good? Because for most people, it's weird and quick and awkward and. And, you know, most people in their, like, late teens, early 20s are doing, like, our, you know, like, it's not. It's not, you know, it's, you know. So, no, I don't need that, you know, but it's helpful.
- [38:37]
Haley
Yeah.
- [38:38]
Allie
It really was, like, to just get a guy's perspective and to get some good reframes. I think I. Because I hit it so hard and was on the defensive, I could use some, like, a change in my mindset.
- [38:54]
Nick Viall
Yeah. And I hope when you get off the phone, I hope that your main focus isn't like, I fucking knew it. It was the weight loss. Like, you know what I'm saying? First of all, I don't know if I'm right there. It's just an opinion I have, and it doesn't really. I think the real important part to take away is, like, it doesn't matter why they rejected me. This year wasn't about you finding a boyfriend. This year was about you getting experience. You know, and whenever you do find your parent, a person you will look back on. That year is like the year I date. I went on 48 dates, and that was awesome, and that was fun. And you will. You will. You will look back more fondly on that year than you do now. And this is just kind of part of your. Part of your journey. And I think the more you just, you know, when you find yourself having those negative feelings of. Of, like, focusing on what you don't have, remember that kind of black coffee coffee theory? Like, it. You didn't lose all this weight by having the mindset of, I can't lose weight, you know, or that I don't want to be overweight anymore. You know, that's not. It was, I'm gonna do this thing. What do I need to do? What are the next steps? What do I have to do tomorrow? You know, you had an image board of what you wanted to be or look like and feel. That's how you got accomplished this goal. And I think applying how you got to this point in your life when it comes to your weight, I think applying that mindset to dating and love will actually help as well, too.
- [40:24]
Madison
Yeah.
- [40:24]
Allie
I've actually never thought of it like that too, so that's interesting.
- [40:29]
Nick Viall
All right. Okay. Thanks for the call, and I'd love for you to keep us posted and give us some updates. I'm curious how your journey unfolds.
- [40:37]
Allie
Yeah, I will update you guys when
- [40:40]
Nick Viall
it finally happens or it doesn't. Or just, like, as you know, maybe you'll have some interesting stories or things you learn along the way. It doesn't have to be when you have a boyfriend. I get. I try to not make your whole dating thing about, like, having a boyfriend. It's not about having a boyfriend. It's about making connections. It's about, you know, learning how to. It's about falling in love. It's about meeting people. Stop telling yourself you've never had a relationship. That's not true. You've had plenty of relationships. You've had a lot of meaningful relationships. There have been girlfriends. They've been probably men who are friends, whatever. Like I've never had a relationship is a lie. It's not true. Never had a boyfriend, I guess. But like, what does that mean in 2026? Most people are out there being like, yeah, we're exclusive, but we're not boyfriend and girlfriend. You know, I don't like, it's so like get, you know, it's, it's your, get that out of your head and, and stop telling yourself you, you've never had something that you've probably had a lot of.
- [41:34]
Allie
Yeah, that's also true. I think I needed to hear that.
- [41:38]
Nick Viall
All right, good luck out there. Take care.
- [41:40]
Allie
Yeah, I appreciate it.
- [41:41]
Nick Viall
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- [44:37]
Haley
Good morning, My name is Haley, I am 28 and I'm wondering at what point did you consider cutting off a friendship due to your best friend's partner being world's biggest piece of shit?
- [44:50]
Nick Viall
Okay. Are they married?
- [44:52]
Madison
Engaged.
- [44:52]
Nick Viall
Okay.
- [44:53]
Haley
Have been engaged for probably two years. Together for four.
- [44:58]
Nick Viall
All right. Hawaii. Is he a piece of shit?
- [44:59]
Haley
Oh, I think it's just like your tale, as old as time. Most toxic, manipulative sort of relationship has kind of taken every aspect of her and like, she's just a completely different person than she was when they first met. Very controlling, lots of infidelity, which has been caught also on her end. So it's not like she has no proof. And she kind of takes care of everything while compromising her emotional and physical health, her relationships with her friends and family, her career. She just, she does everything and he is just textbook piece of shit.
- [45:42]
Nick Viall
How much has the infidelity played a role in your opinion of him a lot.
- [45:48]
Haley
But. But I will say, even before, kind of, that was a piece like the way he would just disrespect boundaries, speak to her, talk about her body, talk about his expectations of her, things like that. That just.
- [46:06]
Nick Viall
So it was like, when it happened, you weren't like, I cannot believe he did this. It was like, okay, well, yeah, one
- [46:13]
Haley
example, like, she went through his Apple Watch. That's how she saw some of the text messages, and he had changed the name of the person to, like, 4, 3, 5, 6, 9. You know, like the text that you would get from, like, dick Sporting Goods or, like, like, and she happened to click on it and look. So, you know, he was creative.
- [46:33]
Nick Viall
That is. That's very creative. That's very creative. Can't help but laugh. The only problem is, is that she probably doesn't have a Samsung.
- [46:44]
Haley
No.
- [46:44]
Nick Viall
You know,
- [46:47]
Haley
and it's. It's one of those where she is, like, so far gone and so far lost that it's like you just want to shake her.
- [46:55]
Nick Viall
And.
- [46:56]
Haley
And I'm. I'm a very honest friend, so.
- [46:58]
Nick Viall
Sure.
- [46:59]
Haley
You know, I'm not the friend that's gonna tell you, like, it's okay, like, whatever you want to do. You know, I've kind of laid it out there for her and tried to be that voice, but she.
- [47:09]
Nick Viall
The tough love voice.
- [47:11]
Haley
Yeah, the tough love voice. And it just doesn't click. But it gets to a point, like, she'll call you every. She kind of backed off on what she tells me. No surprise. But every, you know, four or five months, I'll get a call. I'm leaving. This is it. And then returns back to the house within. I'm not kidding you, like, five hours of when.
- [47:31]
Nick Viall
When she does that, how does that make you feel?
- [47:35]
Haley
It's just frustrating because you see this person who. Who's such a good human being and deserves the world. Like, truly, like, not just one of those friends where you're like, yeah, whatever. Like, you know, she's not the best either. Like, she's awesome and could have such a different life and such a different relationship. And I think it's just so frustrating that she's lost all of her confidence, security, everything, and just. It's like, how do you not see what everyone else is seeing?
- [48:03]
Nick Viall
There's definitely a reason. I don't know what the reason is, but. But there is a reason she's not seeing that in herself.
- [48:09]
Haley
Yeah.
- [48:10]
Nick Viall
And I would. I just remember that. Why are you feeling like it might Be necessary to cut your friend out of your life.
- [48:19]
Haley
I think my boyfriend made a point the other day. We got off the phone, and I was kind of recapping to him, and he was like, you. You. You're so stressed, like, every time you talk to her because you carry people's problems in a way. Like, you get off this phone call and you don't feel rejuvenated or happy. It's like you're carrying everything that she just told you. And I think, like I said, she's lost herself, even in the sense of, like, as a friend. Like, she doesn't come to visit. She doesn't, you know, even for her birthday, I'm like, I'll buy you and your kid a plane ticket. Like, I want to be in both of your lives. I want to see you. I try to make that effort. And I think he pushes her away from her family. Like, her half of her family doesn't talk to her anymore because they hate him so much. She's, like, lost all of her friends. She's changed her career, so she's at home, like, so isolated by herself. But I think when I sit back and look, like, what am I getting out of this friendship for? At the same time. But where do you draw the line of, I want to be your friend and support you? Because I. I know at some point this will probably all crash and burn and blow up in your face, and then you'll really have no one. But at the same time, it's like, how do you almost associate yourself with someone who has these, like, standards and values for themselves?
- [49:31]
Nick Viall
Okay, how long have you known this friend?
- [49:34]
Haley
Probably 10 years plus.
- [49:36]
Nick Viall
So a while.
- [49:37]
Madison
A while.
- [49:38]
Nick Viall
Meaningful friendship?
- [49:39]
Haley
Yeah, very.
- [49:41]
Nick Viall
I think you just need to change your perspective on this friendship.
- [49:46]
Haley
Okay.
- [49:46]
Nick Viall
You know, it's. It's. It was interesting hearing you speak about how you feel when you get off the phone with her. And then, like, a few seconds later, you talked, you. You said, you know, what am I getting out of this friendship? I think that's the, you know, everything you're feeling, it's natural and things like that. But I think if you, you know, there's like, an energy I think people exchange with each other, despite the fact that your intentions obviously are good. You want to help her out. You. You are assigning a cost, in a way, to her, almost like a therapist would when you meet with them. It's just like, yeah, I'll give you some really good advice and some guidance, but that will also be $200, thank you very much. And they were will. They are willing to listen to our. It's their job and they make money from it. And, and certainly I'm sure there are people out there who feel very connected with their therapists, but if you stop paying them, they will stop listening. And I think when it comes to friendship, especially, you know, the ones that have been around for a while, you know, I think you have to reframe why you are showing up for this friend. This relationship will end. Not, maybe not probably it will end. I don't know when, but it will end. And when it does, she will need you in her life. Right now you are very much showing. You know, it's just like I'm the friend who, who gives her the business. I'm the friend who's honest with her and tells her what maybe other people are a little afraid to say. And, you know, as someone who relates to that, that's all well and good, but right now she doesn't need that friend. She's heard it from everybody. She's heard it from half her family. It's not working. I don't know what the reason is and why she's in this relationship and why she hasn't left, but she, unfortunately for her, is not ready. You know, and I'm sure there's a bunch of reasons why, and childhood trauma and God only knows why she has chosen to accept this type of relationship, but that's where she's at. And now more than ever, she needs people in her life who don't require a cost for their friendship. And I think I completely get where your boyfriend's coming from. It's like you're just like, you're pain in the ass. Every time you get off the phone with her. It's just like, why are you so grumpy? It's just like, why are you this. It's just like from his standpoint, like, yeah, stop talking to her. You know, it's just like she makes you miserable, but she doesn't make you miserable. You are allowing. You know, when you, when you're on the phone with her, there's an exchange of energy. You know, I think I really believe that with anything. But right now she is passing her energy off to you in a way.
- [52:32]
Haley
Yeah.
- [52:33]
Nick Viall
It's making you feel a certain way as opposed to showing up to this phone call, listening. I'm sure you don't remember the last time you actually listened to your friend talk about her relationship. I imagine recently you've just. You let her. You let her speak. You wait for her to finish talking. And then if you have something to say, I'm guessing you say it. But you. You have checked out listening to your friend talk about her relationship. And I would be willing to bet that if you. You shift that a little bit, I'm sure, no doubt, 95% of what she said would sound very similar. Probably be frustrating to hear, I'm sure. But if you really listen, I'm guessing you would probably learn a thing or two. I don't know what that is, but it would probably reveal something a little bit. And right now, all she's heard, for however long she has been getting criticized for her choices about her relationship, all she's ever heard from the people most important in her life is negativity. You know, even when you try to compliment her, oh, you deserve better. It's. She's probably hearing, what's wrong with you. You're stupid. You deserve better. Why are you so stupid? You know, why. Why do you treat yourself this way? I think it would do you a lot of good to show up the next time you speak to her and only say nice things, only praise her. There's no. But I don't know what it is. Maybe reminisce about a time in your friendship where she showed up for you or she did something that you thought was really wonderful or sweet. Maybe she won an award. I don't know. And you could just be like, I was just thinking about that time. And yeah, I don't know. It's just great. You were one, you know, you were really wonderful. And then it ends there. You don't go. And I just wish I could have that friend back. Don't. That, that last part, that's the shit that you're doing now that you need to. I. I think you probably need to stop. And the moment you start expecting less from your friend, who's right now probably not able or capable of giving you more because she's fighting for her life right now, in a way fighting for her relationship, which feels like her life. And I don't know if you've ever been in a toxic relationship before, but you know that you don't see the forest through the trees when you're in it, you know?
- [54:54]
Haley
Yeah. You don't.
- [54:56]
Nick Viall
And so you gotta. You just have to have a little empathy for her right now. And now's not the time to be right. And you just. You have to accept that whatever you're doing right now isn't working.
- [55:05]
Haley
Yeah.
- [55:06]
Nick Viall
And that's something you can control and own.
- [55:09]
Haley
Yeah. Like the potential of. It's almost like when you're dating, you know, you think of the potential of what Someone.
- [55:16]
Nick Viall
Sure.
- [55:17]
Haley
Instead of taking them, I think at face value. So that's a good reminder is just to kind of meet her where she's at. And I guess just it'd be helpful to have your advice. You know, when she calls me because she knows I think in herself, that's what hurts my heart is like, she's even told me I don't feel like myself. I don't know the last time I was happy. Like, I can't live this way. And then. So when you share those things where it's almost like I know she feels trapped and I know she feels what everyone else is seeing. But she's like you said, she's just not at that place yet where she has.
- [55:49]
Nick Viall
Next time she says something like that.
- [55:51]
Haley
That.
- [55:52]
Nick Viall
Where she almost is acknowledging things that you've said.
- [55:56]
Haley
Yeah.
- [55:56]
Nick Viall
She's criticizing him. Maybe she's even saying, I don't know why I don't leave this man. Instead of saying, I don't know either, or yada yada, or I know in. In that time, if I'm you in the past. Oh, hell, even in the present. It's not like I'm always good at taking my own advice. It. That would be like a green light for me to like, oh, I'm gonna really. I'm gonna talk my.
- [56:17]
Haley
It.
- [56:17]
Nick Viall
I'm like, she's close. I gotta. I'm gonna. You know, I'm gonna go snap snatch my friend and save them. I would. I would say something as simple as, listen, you know how I feel about you. I would pay some compliments. I would talk about all the things she's capable of, and I would just say, listen, I don't know either. But you will do it when you're ready.
- [56:39]
Haley
Yeah, that's fair.
- [56:40]
Nick Viall
And I would. I would think that would. That's obviously, I'm sure, difficult for you to say, but that will empower her. Her. Because the truth is she won't leave when she's ready and you can't make her leave. And she feels obviously helpless. Obviously, when she shows up like that and she is literally saying to you, I don't know why I do this. She feels like she can't. So in that moment, you will be a friend she needs who will remind her, you are stronger than you give yourself credit for. You are capable of doing this. I don't have the answers as to why and when, but I do know you will do it when you're ready. And I think that will be. I think that would be something she could really benefit from hearing from, because I'm guessing she now more than ever feels incredibly alone. And anyone who's been in a toxic relationship where their friends have said, your person sucks, and then they've responded with, you don't know me, they get very defensive. They, you know, whether they cut off their friends or their, you know, usually it's not something like a breakup either. It's a little bit of both. Right. She has distanced herself from you because she doesn't know what to say. You've distanced yourself from her because you don't know what to say. And so you've grown some distance.
- [57:55]
Haley
Yeah.
- [57:55]
Nick Viall
And she's has, I'm. I'm sure several instances of all the people in her life who don't like him who are doing that. So now. Now she's even more alone. Right. And so now she feels like she really has to fight for this relationship. And, yeah, it would be normal for be like, well, if I just end him, everyone who's kind of distanced himself will. Will come back in my life. And for the most part, that's probably true, but it never feels like that in the moment.
- [58:20]
Haley
Yeah, no, I know.
- [58:21]
Nick Viall
You know?
- [58:22]
Haley
Yeah. And I will say, I think I do try to have a positive look when I'm speaking with her. Like, I. I do give her the honest truth, but I also try to have that fair balance of.
- [58:36]
Nick Viall
You just have to stop having balance, and you have to stop giving her the truth. And the only truth you need to share with her is the love you have for her.
- [58:47]
Haley
Yeah.
- [58:48]
Nick Viall
And that's it.
- [58:49]
Haley
Yeah.
- [58:49]
Nick Viall
That's all. That's. That's all you need to share. Not guilt, not shame. You know, don't make her feel bad about her choices. You're not her mom. You're not a therapist. You're just her friend. And she needs friendship and she needs connection, and. Because she doesn't have that anywhere else, and she just needs people to believe in her so that when she is ready, she will find that courage. Because in the moments where she calls you up and says, I don't know why, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, I'm guessing that's like her trying to find that strength. And your response is always like, I don't know. I.
- [59:27]
Haley
And I mean, I've tried. Like, I even, like, let me help you find a therapist. I'll send her podcasts, I'll send her books.
- [59:33]
Nick Viall
But yeah, yeah, exactly. You're like, you can't do this on your own. Here's a book, read it. You can't do this on your own. Find a therapist. You know, and that's all good advice and well intentioned, no doubt. But I think she's had enough of that. Lately I have been getting back into some books and some literature that, you know, has helped me in the past and I've kind of revisited it. Yeah, I'm doing that because I wanted to, I felt ready, you know, it's. I wasn't like, no, I have never in my life read a book that someone's told me to read. I don't like to read. I'm dyslexic. So like, no one, you know?
- [60:12]
Haley
Yeah.
- [60:12]
Nick Viall
She's like, I have a book you should read. Great. Good for you. You know, they might look at the COVID turn the back, you know, but like, she, she'll do it when she's ready. But when she's ready, you want to make sure that she has a belief in herself. And when she looks in the mirror, she is kind of like, what the fuck are you doing? And that will only come from you leaving out the butt.
- [60:39]
Haley
That's fair.
- [60:40]
Nick Viall
And I would challenge yourself when next time you get on the phone to leave that phone call feeling connected to your friend, inspired by your friend, feeling good, feeling better than when you got off. And I think if you bring that energy to that phone call, I promise you, you will feel different. Because right now when you get on the phone with your friend, you have an assignment that you've knighted yourself. And then every time you get off the phone, you feel like you failed. You feel like you failed yourself. You feel like you failed your friend. She doesn't hear you, she's not listening. And it's, it's very frustrating for you, but you have to let go of that.
- [61:20]
Haley
Yeah. And just lead with love a little bit more.
- [61:22]
Nick Viall
Yeah.
- [61:23]
Haley
I mean, do you think it's fair to kind of level set with her and almost just have that open conversation and just say like, just almost remind her like, I love you and I'm always here for you?
- [61:34]
Nick Viall
No, I, I would, I think this is something you need to work on. And I think I would, I would, I would challenge yourself that this is. Because this is not something you are doing to trick your friend in a way. You really have to let go of the outcome. And I think this is you recognizing that, well intentioned or not, that you haven't shown up for your friend in the way that she's needed you. And you want to challenge yourself to do a better job of that. That. And so I think you just really start slow. This is new for you, you know, this is something you need to practice. This is not about you crafting a new delivery, you know, so that your friend receives what you're trying to say. Because if you do that, you will put some kind of artificial timeline on that. It'll be like, all right, I'll try this thing. This Nick guy said, all right, I'm gonna. You know, in the back of your mind, you're like, I'll give it 10 phone calls. And then that 10th phone call, when she doesn't change, you're going to go back to your old ways. And I think if you really work on this and recognize this is something you need to change not only with this friend, but just maybe in all aspects of your life, that when you have an expectation from a friend and you leave that call feeling worse, I would think about what you brought to that call and what your expectations were going in type of thing, especially if. Especially someone like yourself who can recognize that you are the tough love friend. And as the tough love friend, I think we all need to work on is when that tough love is needed and it often isn't. And I think sometimes when it comes to friendships, us tough love people could listen a lot more and just try to connect with our friends. Your friend has not felt a connection with a friend or a phone call in a long time. She has just felt lectured.
- [63:38]
Haley
Yeah.
- [63:39]
Nick Viall
And so I would really focus on that.
- [63:42]
Haley
I was just gonna say I feel like yes, but at the same time, probably because of how I've responded in the past, it's almost like we just don't talk about him now.
- [63:51]
Nick Viall
Yeah.
- [63:51]
Haley
Like, call me the other day. You know, it wasn't about him or a situation. If I ask how he is, it's like, good, we're working on things kind of just.
- [64:00]
Nick Viall
I don't think you need to ask how it is. That's disingenuous. You don't care. And you asking how he is is just a way of bringing him up that creates this almost kind of awkwardness between the two of you because you both know you hate his fucking guts and we both know you don't care how he is. And if anything, if he was dead in a ditch, it would probably make you happy. So, like, don't be disingenuous with your friends, friend.
- [64:23]
Haley
Yeah.
- [64:24]
Nick Viall
Your biggest roadblock with the advice I'm giving you is letting go with how much you hate his guts and. And the outcome that you assign to needing your friend to leave him before you feel like you can really reconnect with this friend. And I would challenge you to. Regardless of me saying, oh, it's definitely going to happen. I don't know. That could be in 10 years. I don't. I don't know, know. Challenge yourself to still have a friendship with this person you describe as a wonderful, beautiful person, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Yes, I'm sure she is, quote, unquote, changed, but part of that change is her just feeling stuck and trapped. And again, you know, people won't leave until they're ready to leave. And so I think you should just try to focus on. She knows you hate him. Everyone knows you hate him. And if she really wants to bring it up, you just listen. Be like, listen. I just, you know, they could say, listen. You know how I feel. I. I'm guessing you don't need me to remind you how I feel, but I just. I'm here to listen, and I'm here to let you know that, like, I think you're an amazing person, and I'm just so lucky that I have you. And I know that I appreciate what you've done for me. And do you remember that time? You know what I'm saying? Like, it's. It's just about talking about the two of you and talking about your friendship and understand that he might come up. And when she vents again, it's just like, I'm here to listen with no expectation of the outcome. You don't try to feel like she's heard you. This is not, you know, she. You have said enough. And I'm guessing a lot of times you get frustrated is because you don't feel like she's hearing you, and you feel like you're wasting your breath and wasting your time, and you're like, why am I showing up for this friend who won't even listen to me? And I know what I'm talking about. And, like, it's so kind of disrespectful of her not to, like, take my advice because, like, I'm in the healthy relationship. She knows she's in a bad relationship, and she has the nerve to call me up and vent to me, ask for my advice, and then not take it. It. Like, that's kind of the energy that you are. Are bringing to this friendship right now. And totally understandable. And I've. I've been you. And I will continue to be you at times. But the path forward with this friend and your happiness and peace of mind is, is, I promise you, exact is, is, is kind of what I'm trying to convey to you. And your friend needs you. It, she needs you.
- [66:56]
Haley
No, that's good advice. And sometimes, yeah, I, I, I tend to be a fixer, you know, or like an, an empath. And I think your advice is good of just kind of like it's, at the end of the day, it's her life and she needs a friend. And probably just that.
- [67:13]
Nick Viall
Yeah.
- [67:14]
Haley
Because she knows. And I think I have to remind myself that, like, she knows the truth, she knows how she feels, and she's ready to act on that. Then I just kind of have to be there to support her.
- [67:24]
Nick Viall
And what can you learn from her? Is a great question. I would challenge yourself. How can you connect with her? You know, you are not showing up to these phone calls with this friend anymore as her equal. You are showing up as the better friend, the more emotionally regulated friend, the friend who makes better choices. And so you are bringing judgment into that conversation. And again, you're not her parent, her therapist. You're just her friend. And right now, especially when she's not asking for help, just show up as her friend and be her friend and you have a lot more to talk about than just her dating life. And help her have those conversations that have nothing to do with him and don't ask about them. And if she brings them up, ask questions without judgment. I think if you do that, you will definitely get closer and then you will, you know, and then when she's ready, you will be a big reason why she finds the strength to actually do it. But she's not going to do it till she's not ready. And that's definitely the answer of why. And right now, no one's reminding her of that. And while not reminding her of that, they are making her feel like she is not capable. Because everyone's suggesting books and therapists these things, you know, and it's not like, like, you know, you will, you, when you imagine how that might feel to her when you, when you say you will do it when you're ready, you know.
- [69:01]
Haley
Yeah, it's good advice. And I think, you know, there's been a lot of, there's been a lot of trial leaves, you know, like I said, like, you think she leaves and you think she's good and then comes back. So it's like you said, it's kind of at her time when she finally makes that decision.
- [69:15]
Nick Viall
And when she does that really, really, really challenge yourself to not judge, not assume.
- [69:23]
Haley
Yeah.
- [69:23]
Nick Viall
Because you definitely. I'm sure you don't even realize how, like, the eye rolls, the huffs and puffs, the comments of, you know, that I'm sure in some way you send her away about how much you don't believe this is it.
- [69:38]
Haley
Yeah, no, that's. I mean, that's fair. And I think, like I said, just because it's like the repeated the cycle, so you're right. Like, no, I. And so I'm sure that it does come off that way. And, you know, they have a child adds a whole nother life sometimes, and I think that's kind of a big concern of hers. But, yeah, no, that's good advice. And I know that I could practice just kind of minding my business, and
- [70:03]
Nick Viall
I would spend a lot of time reminding her of how much of an amazing mom she is.
- [70:08]
Haley
Like, I do try to. I don't want to sound like I just shit on her all day.
- [70:11]
Nick Viall
No, I know. I. I know. I. I'm sure you do. You don't. And that's the thing is I want you to. I really. I really know that you. You don't. And I'm sure you do say nice things to her. The problem with what you're doing now, there's always a but.
- [70:24]
Haley
Yeah.
- [70:24]
Nick Viall
And she is not hearing the compliments. She's, you know, I don't know. I don't know what your social media existence is. You know, I'm sure you've heard it or maybe you've also experienced, but you can receive a hundred positive comments, and if there's one negative comment, that's the one that you feel, it's the one you internalize. That's the one that hits home. Home. And so it's the same way when you are, you know, reminding her of all her bad choices and how her. You know, and you know, it's like, oh, you're a good mother, but like, hey, have you left him yet? You know, it's like, you know, and right now you just need to shower her with praise, remind her of the good times. You know, if you think of stories where you feel like she demonstrated strength, you don't need to be like, and this was a time you were strong, so why can't, you know, just be like, hey, you remember that one time and that you were such a badass? I don't know. It just popped in my head. I don't know why. Anyways, like, how's your day? Day, you know, you just have to sprinkle in those moments that she has not been reminded of by herself or anyone else that she is capable of a lot, but, like, she is just feeling very isolated and very alone. And the fact that she does have a child is only adding to that. And she just needs people who believe in her and. And aren't going to tell her, I told you so.
- [71:39]
Haley
Yeah. Yeah. Because I think. I mean, mean, she's not getting confidence or security from her relationship, from her family, from other people in her life. So I think being that person that can kind of lift her up and give her maybe some of her confidence back or help her gain some of that confidence and strength back.
- [71:55]
Nick Viall
Yeah. And the last thing I want to leave you with is, again, the mindset of this is not a new assignment, and I'm not giving you a playbook to get your friend to break up with her. I am challenging you to try to get something out of this friendship from your friend. What can you learn from your friend? How can she help you in a way, you know, like, if you are willing to listen to your friend, if you are willing to just be with her and, you know, when you're on the phone or talking, I promise you, your perspective will change and you will get more out of this friendship. But right now, you are showing up with a bill.
- [72:34]
Haley
Yeah. And I think you have to think forward. Like, when she does eventually leave or when this relationship does end and she looks back at how people acted or how people supported her, like, I do want to be remembered as that person that, like, didn't leave her side.
- [72:49]
Nick Viall
Sure. But again, just. I'm nitpicking here. That is that mindset of, like, you want to be rewarded. My hope for you is that you will get to a place where when. When your friend leaves, you're, like, you feel like you have gained something where you actually can thank her, where the idea that I was the friend who stayed and I, you know, I don't want. I want you to feel good about yourself in general, but I don't want you to gain any sense of accomplishment when your friend makes this decision eventually. I just want you to feel gratitude for the friendship that you maintained and the fact that, you know, your friend is in a better place.
- [73:33]
Madison
Yeah.
- [73:33]
Nick Viall
And I think people like us who. Who have that kind of fixer mindset, there. There is a lot of ego in that, in terms of, like, you. You know, you're right and you want to help and you want to pass this being right on to the other people who are so good at being wrong. And I think just, just work on that and it will help you out immensely in all your relationships, I promise.
- [73:55]
Haley
Yeah, no, that's a, that's good advice. Thank you. I appreciate it.
- [73:58]
Nick Viall
It. All right, well, thanks for the call.
- [74:00]
Haley
All right. Thank you and congratulations to you and Natalie on the twins.
- [74:03]
Nick Viall
I appreciate it. Thanks so much for saying that.
- [74:06]
Haley
Thank you.
- [74:06]
Nick Viall
All right, take care.
- [74:07]
Haley
Bye.
- [74:08]
Nick Viall
All right. Bye. Bye.
- [74:10]
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Nick Viall
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- [76:57]
Haley
Good.
- [76:57]
Madison
How are you?
- [76:58]
Nick Viall
Good. What's your name?
- [76:59]
Madison
I'm Madison. I'm 23. And is it time to block my situationship?
- [77:04]
Nick Viall
Yes. All right. Have a good day. That's good. Tell me more about it.
- [77:08]
Madison
Okay, so I'll just take you back to the beginning, I guess. So we matched on Hinge like a year ago back in, like, end of March, beginning of April. And everything was going so well. He's a year younger than me and everything's going great. We clicked immediately. It was just great. Like, I. He liked me more than I liked him, which I feel like is always a recipe for something good. Because, you know.
- [77:30]
Nick Viall
How do you know that?
- [77:31]
Madison
Because once you start liking them more than they like you, then things start to go wrong.
- [77:35]
Nick Viall
Well, but how do you know he liked you more than you liked him? Him?
- [77:39]
Madison
Because, like, he. If I didn't answer for like an hour, like, he would text me and be like, oh, like, is everything okay? Like, are we good? And like, I didn't, like, if he didn't answer, I felt like completely fine with that.
- [77:50]
Nick Viall
Okay.
- [77:51]
Madison
Yeah.
- [77:51]
Nick Viall
So maybe it just means he's insecure or controlling or.
- [77:56]
Haley
I don't know.
- [77:56]
Madison
Well, things changed. You'll see.
- [77:58]
Nick Viall
But sure, I guess my Point is, I'd be so quick to assess feelings.
- [78:03]
Madison
Yeah.
- [78:05]
Nick Viall
And then measure those feelings as if they matter based off of fairly trivial things.
- [78:11]
Madison
Yeah.
- [78:12]
Nick Viall
You're reading into some of his actions, which, as I'm sure you'll tell your story, leads to disappointment and confusion.
- [78:21]
Madison
Yeah, you're right.
- [78:23]
Nick Viall
Continue.
- [78:24]
Madison
Okay, so everything was great. And then, like I said, he's a year younger than me, So I was a senior in college, and he was a junior, so I was about to graduate. We matched on Hinge, like, about two months before I graduated, which I made clear to him, like, I'm most likely moving back home, which is 11 hours away from where we went to school. So I made it clear to him, and he was like, that's fine. So we're still talking. Everything's great. And then we get to, like, around graduation. So I graduate. Then I feel him start getting distant, and I'm like, okay. He didn't text me. Like, he was on vacation, and he was going to text me when he got back so we could hang out.
- [78:59]
Nick Viall
Out.
- [78:59]
Madison
And then he never texted me. So I text him. I'm like, hey, like, are you back yet? And then he's like, oh, I'm coming back a day later. And I'm like, all right, that's fine. And he didn't answer that text for, like, six hours, which is not like him. So then the next day comes, and then he Snapchats me, and I see he's back home, and he didn't text me. So I was like, something's definitely wrong, because that's not like him at all. So I reach out to him. I'm like, hey, is everything okay? And then he responds once again, like, six hours later. And it's like, everything's fine. And, like, that's it. So very dry. So then I'm like, telling my friends, and they're like, maybe he's just having a bad day. Maybe something happened on the trip.
- [79:33]
Nick Viall
When you say, like, is everything okay? What? What does okay mean? Like, is he, like, about to get eaten by a bear? Okay.
- [79:40]
Madison
Or, like, is everything okay with us?
- [79:43]
Nick Viall
Gotcha.
- [79:44]
Madison
Okay. Yeah. So I just wanted to double. I was like, is everything okay? Like, just feel like you've been distant. And he said everything was fine. Like, no further elaboration or anything. So the next day comes, I'm like, I'll give him the day. Just see how he acts. Same thing. Like, only hear from him once that day.
- [79:59]
Nick Viall
At this point. How long you guys been talking for?
- [80:01]
Madison
About two months.
- [80:02]
Nick Viall
What are the expectations or Labels, if any.
- [80:06]
Madison
Yeah, there's no labels. But, I mean, we're not both not seeing anyone else at this time, and we talked about that, but there's no, like, boyfriend girlfriend label. So I reach out to him and I'm like, hey, you've definitely been off recently. Like, it's like, what's wrong? He responds, and he's like, sorry, I haven't been communicative with you. The whole you moving home thing is really starting to affect me. And I'm like, okay. Like, I had let you know that previously. So I was just kind of annoyed that that was what was causing this. So I'm like, okay. Like, I think it's best if we talk about it in person. And then he agrees to that. So we meet in person. And then I was staying at school for, like, the whole summer after I graduated, and so was he. So we both. We had a conversation, and he was like, I'm sorry that I, like, reacted that way and was distant from you because of my feelings. And I was like, that's okay. Like, in the future, like, if you feel that way, you can handle it differently. Just communicate to me. That's a big thing for me. And he was like, okay, yeah. So we ended that conversation and just left off that we were going to spend the summer together and just, like, see where things go go. So, like, everything's completely fine for like, two, three weeks after that. And then he starts doing the same thing that he did last time. Starts answering once a day, being distant, and I'm like, okay, I know the same exact thing is about to happen. So I text him and I'm like, is everything okay? Like, I feel like the same thing that happened last time is about to happen again. And then he's just making excuses, like, oh, no. Like, everything's fine. The exact same thing that happened last time.
- [81:38]
Nick Viall
Time.
- [81:38]
Madison
So then I'm like, okay, can we just talk about it? Because I don't want this to be a repeat of last time. So then he agrees. He comes over, we talk about it, and then he starts saying, oh, like, I, like, don't know, like, how I feel about this. Like, I'm just overwhelmed. Like, I've never hung out with someone, like, as much as I've hung out with you. Like, I'm not that type of person. And I'm just, like, in the moment. I'm not even realizing how, like, stupid it sounds, because it's not like I was always the one asking him. Him to hang out. Like, he was the one asking me to hang out. So it wasn't like only one sided. Like it was, he was always asking me to hang out and I'm just like, okay, well why would you keep asking me to hang out if you aren't that type of person who hangs out with someone multiple times in a week. And he would buy me gifts. Like, this was not one sided at all. And he was making it out to be like, this was a one sided thing. And then we ended that conversation. I felt so much worse than I did before because like, it wasn't like last time he was saying that, that basically like he doesn't want to like hang out as much. And I was like, okay, this doesn't make sense. So then after that conversation, he completely just went off the grid. Like I text him, nothing, Complete ghost. So I'm like, what the heck? Like I'm about to leave the state to move 11 hours away in like two weeks. So I'm like, this is just bad timing. Like, I don't want to end on like this bad note, like where he just completely ghosted me me. So I don't hear from him for like a week. And then I decide that I'm going to reach out to him and just see, like, I'm sorry, like if I overwhelmed you. And then he text me back and is like, I'm sorry, like I acted that way. I was just thinking about you, like, I miss you. And I'm like, okay. So we start talking again for like that week. And then I ask him if he wants to hang out for the weekend. Then I was planning on telling him that I'm leaving to stay in three weeks at like when we hang out. So that week goes by, everything's fine. We're scheduled to hang out on Sunday. And then I text him Saturday night confirming the plans. He says, yes, I'm very excited. Sunday comes, I text him, what do you want to do today? He says, anything you want to do. And that's the last I heard from him.
- [83:39]
Nick Viall
Okay.
- [83:41]
Madison
Yeah.
- [83:41]
Nick Viall
So why do you need to block him?
- [83:43]
Madison
Because there's more, there's more after, after this. Like that is just one part. So I don't hear from him. He lets me leave. I text a huge paragraph, like, I'm literally leaving the state and you let me leave and completely ghost me without saying anything to me. Don't hear from him. So I move away without saying bye, without saying anything. A month passes and then he reaches out to me and says, I know this is out of the blue and so random. And I know you're probably not happy with me, but I miss you so much. And I'm sorry for how I act. So I'm like, oh, my God, what do I do? So I respond back after, like, two hours. And then that's when, like, things, we start talking again. And all my friends are telling me it's so stupid to answer him and continue after, like, what he did. He fully let me leave the state without saying bye to me. And then we start talking again. And then two weeks go by, he does the same thing. He just keeps repeating the exact same pattern. And I know I sound stupid for, like, to keep responding and all this, but. But so he does the same thing. And then he comes back again. Two weeks later, he comes back and I was supposed to go visit my college. And he knew that, so he reached out to me and was like, are you still coming next weekend? And I was like, yeah, I'm coming. And then he was like, you can stay with me if you want. And me being stupid, I was like, okay, I'll stay with you. So then I saw him that weekend at school and, like, everything went so good. So it's like when we're together, like, it's so good. But then he just repeats the exact same pattern of, like, he'll last for two weeks and then ghost me.
- [85:15]
Nick Viall
Okay.
- [85:16]
Madison
So I feel like I should just block him to, like, end this pattern or, like, I don't know if, like,
- [85:21]
Nick Viall
I think really blocking is only effective. It's. If it's helping you enforce a boundary you're trying to set.
- [85:26]
Madison
Yeah.
- [85:27]
Nick Viall
And that boundary is to not let people who are. Who are. Who have shown you who they are, so to speak. To speak.
- [85:34]
Madison
Yeah.
- [85:34]
Nick Viall
And shown you that they lack either consistency or immaturity or armature. But you are, for whatever reason, have a hard time enforcing that boundary and giving into the temptation. So. Yeah, I mean, if. If it seems like you're recognizing that,
- [85:48]
Madison
yeah, I've started to learn.
- [85:50]
Nick Viall
But what do you. I mean, listen, you've. You've. In the story, you called. You called yourself stupid a few times and. And were hard on yourself. But, like, you're also not denying that you recognize you're probably making decisions you shouldn't. Shouldn't make. So I guess other than, like, confirming.
- [86:06]
Madison
Yeah.
- [86:07]
Nick Viall
That maybe, yeah, you should block them. What else can I help you with?
- [86:09]
Madison
I'm just wondering, like, because why does he keep disappearing and coming back? Because, like, he. We're not in the same state anymore. Like, I don't understand, like, what he Gains from doing this.
- [86:19]
Nick Viall
Why does that matter? What would be an answer that would make a difference?
- [86:23]
Madison
Like, it. Just to confirm that, like, he actually did care because, like, he literally, like, at one point, like, everything was so good and, like, I just don't. I'm like, just having a hard time,
- [86:32]
Nick Viall
like, understanding why and what. What would him. If you could somehow magically, if this is how we did it and we don't. But let's just, for argument's sake, rated.
- [86:41]
Madison
Yeah.
- [86:41]
Nick Viall
Our love. And a scale of 1 to 10.
- [86:44]
Madison
Yeah.
- [86:44]
Nick Viall
10 being you were the love of his life.
- [86:46]
Madison
Yeah.
- [86:47]
Nick Viall
5 being like, yeah, he's pretty in love with you. And one like, he didn't care about you at all. Why would it matter today what number that was?
- [86:56]
Madison
I guess it wouldn't. It wouldn't really matter. It just matters, like, just so I know that just, you know what? Just so I know, like, what we did have, like, wasn't, like, I didn't make it up. It was real. And, like, he actually did have feelings for me because the things that, like, he did, it just. It's just hard to understand how somebody
- [87:13]
Nick Viall
has Any feeling you ever felt. Not been real.
- [87:15]
Madison
No, not on my end. They've all been real.
- [87:18]
Nick Viall
And have your feelings changed?
- [87:20]
Madison
What do you mean?
- [87:21]
Nick Viall
Have you ever felt one thing in the past only to have that feeling to no longer feel that way in the future?
- [87:28]
Madison
Like, not really. I feel like every feeling that I'm just like.
- [87:31]
Nick Viall
You've never had a feeling change? You've, like.
- [87:34]
Madison
Well, in. In life. Yes, of course.
- [87:36]
Nick Viall
Your favorite movie, like, five years ago is your favorite movie today?
- [87:39]
Madison
No, no in life. Yes, in this situation.
- [87:41]
Nick Viall
I'm saying no in life. Yeah. I'm asking you. In life.
- [87:43]
Madison
Yeah. Yeah. Yes, in life. Many times.
- [87:45]
Nick Viall
Yeah. Okay. So why can't he be the same him?
- [87:49]
Madison
I know. That's what I'm having trouble with because I know that I should hate him and that why.
- [87:53]
Nick Viall
I mean, why should you hate him?
- [87:55]
Madison
Because I just feel like what he did.
- [87:57]
Nick Viall
I mean, hate's a pretty strong word. And like, I, I, you know, you. You've spent a lot of energy on this guy, for one. I just want to remind you. Not your boyfriend.
- [88:07]
Madison
Yes, you're right.
- [88:09]
Nick Viall
Not someone that either of you were like, hey, let's really make the effort here. How old are you again?
- [88:16]
Madison
23.
- [88:17]
Nick Viall
23. You know. You know, so, you know, you're. You're young, but you're certainly old enough that if you met the right person and, and, and felt like, I can't let them Go. You could fight for, like, an, you know, like, something really serious. And, you know, you were. You were fighting for keeping in touch after you moved away.
- [88:35]
Madison
Yeah.
- [88:35]
Nick Viall
Like, not that significant.
- [88:37]
Madison
Yeah, I know. I guess, like, when we were together, we were talking about, like. Like where, like, we would both want to move after graduation. So we were talking about, like, ending up in the same place. And, like.
- [88:48]
Nick Viall
I don't know.
- [88:49]
Madison
I guess I.
- [88:50]
Nick Viall
Which is nice.
- [88:50]
Madison
Was holding. Yeah. I was just, like, holding out hope that, like, in the future it could work. Even though, like, right now we weren't, like, in the same place that it could end up working.
- [89:02]
Nick Viall
There's a part in your story where the first time he kind of showed these signs, he's like, I'm not this type of guy. Which. Yeah, I agree with you. It doesn't really make sense. Like, what is that type of guy? Or is that, like.
- [89:13]
Madison
Yeah, exactly.
- [89:14]
Nick Viall
Is that, like, a really nice way of saying you're just a fuckboy or, like, what. What do you. Yeah, what are you saying? And then. And then kind of in a gaslighty sort of way, kind of made you feel like you made him do something he wasn't comfortable doing. Like, exactly, like, committing. And I guess my question to you and my hope for you, and I think the biggest takeaway I hope you take from this call is that you ignored your intuition about his behavior year and. And this was a guy who, at best didn't make any sense and at worst was basically admitting that I. I'm not what I'm. I mean, not even. Like, he was literally saying, I'm not what you're looking for.
- [89:54]
Madison
Yeah.
- [89:55]
Nick Viall
I'm not this guy.
- [89:56]
Madison
Yeah, you're right.
- [89:58]
Nick Viall
You know, and then his actions, while you claim are confusing, were exactly what he told you. He was someone who pops in and out when he wants, but doesn't want to feel the obligation to have you have expectations of him when he has other things going on in his life.
- [90:16]
Madison
Yeah.
- [90:16]
Nick Viall
And so when he calls you and reaches out to you and says, I miss you, that's not a lie.
- [90:21]
Madison
Yeah.
- [90:21]
Nick Viall
That is him. Like, yeah, today I miss you. I haven't seen you in a while. I had other things going on. I don't feel the need to tell you, you're not my responsibility. You're not my girlfriend. But today I miss you. And right now I want to call and reach out and I want to hear some validation from you. So I'm going to do that.
- [90:40]
Madison
Yeah.
- [90:41]
Nick Viall
And that is exactly who he said he was. He didn't even have to show you. He told you. And yet your. Your response. And again, I'm not trying to pick on you. You had a very normal response, but your response was to act confused.
- [90:55]
Madison
Yeah.
- [90:56]
Nick Viall
Even though his words and his actions actually fully matched up.
- [90:59]
Madison
Yeah. No, you're right. You know, and yeah, also, like, after I had visited him and he was talking about, like, coming to visit me, and he was one who brought it up. It wasn't even me. He was like, I want to come visit you. Like, I'll fly out. And I'm like, okay. Like, I didn't fully trust that he's actually gonna do that, which he did not end up doing. But I just, like, don't know why he would even say that or want
- [91:22]
Nick Viall
to do that if it felt good. He was trying it out. I don't know.
- [91:26]
Madison
Yeah.
- [91:27]
Nick Viall
Maybe that day he was like, oh, that's a cool idea. And then he changed his mind.
- [91:31]
Madison
Yeah.
- [91:31]
Nick Viall
But even if he did fly out, what would that mean?
- [91:34]
Madison
I guess it really wouldn't mean anything unless he was willing to, like, work it out or actually commit to me.
- [91:39]
Nick Viall
Yeah. It would be like he was willing to get on a plane or drive and have a fun weekend. He was willing to have an adventure.
- [91:45]
Madison
Yeah.
- [91:46]
Nick Viall
And have you be in that adventure.
- [91:48]
Madison
Yeah. And then after he didn't end up visiting, I sent him a text and I was like, listen, like, I don't. I don't really want to do this anymore. I don't want to talk to you if, like, you're not going to actually commit to me. And then he ended up answering and was like, yeah, like, you mean the world to me. Like, all this stuff, like, I love having you in my life, but right now, like, I can't give you what you need. Basically. It was, like, a lot longer than that, but that's just a summary. And I was like, okay, great. Like, then we don't have to talk anymore. That's what it is. And then he didn't answer my last text, which is fine. But then he kept trying to. To, like, Snapchat me, so I stopped Snapchatting him. I was like, we're not gonna do this anymore.
- [92:25]
Nick Viall
Yeah, that's just him finding little different ways to stay in contact with you and have control over the situation. Yeah.
- [92:31]
Madison
So I cut that off.
- [92:32]
Nick Viall
He wants to be able to do things when he wants to do. Yeah, I mean, like, for you, it's just like, you have to. You have to try to stop. You know, you're like, you. Like, I pointed out you called yourself Stupid a lot when you told that story. You're not stupid. I mean, you know, you're not stupid.
- [92:45]
Madison
Yeah.
- [92:45]
Nick Viall
Sometimes you see yourself doing quote unquote, stupid things, but whatever. So what? You took a risk.
- [92:52]
Madison
Yeah.
- [92:52]
Nick Viall
Right. The only thing you need to change, in my opinion, is accepting the choices that you make. Right. You know, for example, if you go to Vegas and gamble, you know, you know that, like, the odds aren't in your favor, right?
- [93:08]
Madison
Yes.
- [93:08]
Nick Viall
But, you know, yolo, you know, so whatever amount of money you decide to bet, you just have. You have to own your choices and decisions. And when you choose to take risks, you have to acknowledge it's a risk. I'm gonna go and gamble today. I'm gonna gamble $500. It's slightly more than I probably should budget, but, like, I'm feeling a little risky. I'm feeling, I wanna, you know, and if you lose that money, what you're doing the thing, you're just like, beating yourself up and being like, I shouldn't have done that. I can't believe I did that. It's just like, you did it, you know, you knew going in. So just own that you did it. Accept it, Take the L. Hopefully it wasn't like, such a, you know, huge loss that you really have to recover from. And most of your, you know. No, most of our bad choices are just like, more annoying, obnoxious things that we do where we should have known better.
- [94:00]
Madison
Yeah.
- [94:00]
Nick Viall
But, like, you'll enjoy your life more, a lot more when you just, like, own your mistakes, you know? Like, I mean, listen, when I, my wife and I, obviously when we first started dating, we had a bit of an age difference. And, like, that was a. I, I, I, it's worked out, you know, I'm grateful I did it, but, like, I wasn't going to beat myself up over, you know, if I, I chose, I chose to date her. Like, yeah, there was a good chance in the first couple of years we could have not worked out, I suppose. And our age difference could have definitely played a role. And I wasn't going to be like, why did I do. I mean, I knew why I did that. There were a lot of reasons for me to say yes to that. And there were some risks for sure.
- [94:37]
Madison
Yeah.
- [94:38]
Nick Viall
You know, but if you're going to make choices that are really risky and you're like, I know I shouldn't do this.
- [94:45]
Madison
Yeah.
- [94:46]
Nick Viall
Then at least own it. You know, it's like, fine, I did it because I wanted to have fun. And I, I knew nothing would come of it you're doing. The thing is, like, you're. You're not owning your choices, and you're kind of diluting yourself into. And you're lying to yourself, trying to convince yourself there's. There's hope or meaning behind the things that he's doing, when in reality, he is literally telling you, you. I enjoy having you around when it's convenient for me.
- [95:14]
Madison
Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, like, read too much into things and, like, every little thing, I'm like, oh, what does this mean? Like, this must mean something. But you're right. Like, it doesn't have to mean anything.
- [95:24]
Nick Viall
Especially with most young men that you're dating. I mean, they're not. They're not.
- [95:28]
Madison
Yeah.
- [95:29]
Nick Viall
It means that they wanted to do it in that moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [95:33]
Madison
You're very right.
- [95:34]
Nick Viall
And if. If something changes, it means that it changed.
- [95:38]
Madison
Yeah.
- [95:38]
Nick Viall
You know, feelings change all the time. Time. You know.
- [95:41]
Madison
Yeah, they do.
- [95:42]
Nick Viall
And that obviously is scary and discouraging often, but to protect ourselves over that, that's where you have to make smarter decisions or you have to put up some of those guard rails. So, yeah, block. Block them. Right. Because right now you're. It's in your head.
- [95:56]
Madison
Okay.
- [95:57]
Nick Viall
And you're having a hard time not reading into things.
- [96:00]
Madison
Yeah.
- [96:01]
Nick Viall
But this is not a person who wants a girlfriend. And, yeah, he can both enjoy your company. He can think you're great. He can be attracted to you, and he can also just be not ready to have a girlfriend.
- [96:14]
Madison
Yeah.
- [96:15]
Nick Viall
Instead of feeling rejected by him, why don't you just accept that he is, like, his. He's got a lot of flaws.
- [96:22]
Haley
Yeah.
- [96:23]
Nick Viall
And instead of feeling rejected, you know, start rejecting those flaws. And if you still want to, like, have a good time, because despite all his flaws, he's still a pretty good lay. Or he's makes you laugh.
- [96:35]
Madison
Yeah.
- [96:35]
Nick Viall
You know, like, it's a lot easier to be friends with people, to hang out with people, when you accept who they are as people and stop expecting more than they're capable of giving you and stop convincing yourself or your ego specifically, that you're so great that they are capable of changing for you.
- [96:56]
Haley
Yeah.
- [96:56]
Madison
No, you're right. I just, like, have a hard time, like, because, like, deep down I know that, like, he's not clearly not the person for me and that I don't, like, like, the way that he acts. Like, for some reason, like, I just have such a hard time, like, letting go of, like, him.
- [97:09]
Haley
Yeah.
- [97:09]
Nick Viall
I would Stop telling yourself that. Stop telling yourself that you have a. You know, there's something about him that I can't explain.
- [97:16]
Madison
Yeah.
- [97:17]
Haley
At least.
- [97:17]
Nick Viall
Again. Only it's just like I'm, I'm making choices that I know are silly.
- [97:24]
Madison
Yeah.
- [97:24]
Nick Viall
And those choices are often causing me to, you know, be sad and frustrated at times. But I know why I'm sad and frustrated. It's not because of him. It's because I am ignoring all the red flags. And fine, okay. I, I, I'm an adult. I can ignore red flags, but I'm not gonna act surprised that I'm feeling a little sad sometimes. Every time I ignore a red flag.
- [97:50]
Madison
Yeah.
- [97:50]
Nick Viall
So.
- [97:51]
Madison
No, you're so right. If I don't block him, like, he's gonna come back again. Like, there's no doubt in my mind because he's done it a million times.
- [97:59]
Haley
Times.
- [97:59]
Nick Viall
Yeah. And it's not confusing.
- [98:00]
Madison
Yeah. Like, I don't know why I, like, act surprised because, like, I know he's gonna do it and I, I know what's gonna happen.
- [98:05]
Nick Viall
Yeah.
- [98:06]
Madison
Oh, you're right. Because he did come after I sent him that big text, like, saying that I didn't want to do this anymore if he couldn't commit to me. He did end up texting me two months later. And he, like, sent a memory of us, like, from Snapchat, like, so random. And was like, miss you. And I'm like, okay, like, why? Just like, why do you have to do it? It. It's just so annoying. And like, obviously I answered cuz.
- [98:28]
Nick Viall
Cuz he, It's a, it's a game. You, you know, because he can.
- [98:31]
Madison
Yeah.
- [98:31]
Nick Viall
Because you respond because you play in, because you make it fun for him.
- [98:36]
Madison
Yeah. Yeah.
- [98:37]
Nick Viall
In his mind, it can't be that bad. I mean, if he, if, if what he was doing was that bad, you would stop.
- [98:43]
Madison
Exactly. Yeah. I feel like when I get the chance, I don't even, like, say how I actually feel to him because I'm like, oh, I want him to come back again. Like, I don't know why I want him want that, but I'm like, I don't want to, like, say how I actually feel.
- [98:55]
Nick Viall
Toxic stimulation. It's fun. It's exciting. It's, it's, it feel. You know, feeling anything is fun.
- [99:01]
Madison
Oh, yeah.
- [99:02]
Nick Viall
You're not bored.
- [99:03]
Madison
No.
- [99:04]
Nick Viall
And the, the brain prefers pain to boredom.
- [99:07]
Madison
Yeah. That is true.
- [99:09]
Nick Viall
You know?
- [99:10]
Madison
Yeah. So, and I was back in our college town, like, two weeks ago, and I was supposed to see him and he, like, he knew that. He texted me, like, two weeks before. I was like, I'm so Excited to see you. I miss you so much.
- [99:19]
Haley
Much.
- [99:20]
Madison
And then literally three days before I was supposed to go, he was like, oh, I have to go back home on Friday, like for an appointment, but I'll be back Saturday. And of course, like, the one I was like, okay. I don't really know how, like, they kind of sounded like an excuse. I don't know if I'm reading too much into that. Like, I mean, it could happen that he didn't like, realize he had this appointment, whatever, but I don't know.
- [99:45]
Nick Viall
All right, so like, like, if someone says, I'm really excited to see you, I miss you so much. I guess in a world that could mean true love.
- [99:56]
Madison
Yeah.
- [99:56]
Nick Viall
On the flip side, you've probably said that about pizza before.
- [100:00]
Madison
Yeah.
- [100:02]
Nick Viall
You know.
- [100:03]
Madison
Yeah.
- [100:03]
Nick Viall
Haven't had pizza in a while. Pizza night. You're like, wow, I'm really excited to see you. I have missed you so much. I'm really gonna enjoy spending this quality time with you. Pizza, you know, and I, you know, so just remember that. That sometimes it's not that much more serious than how we feel about food. We get excited. We express our feelings.
- [100:28]
Haley
Yeah.
- [100:28]
Nick Viall
I'm not saying it's okay. And obviously, like, it's a lack of maturity on their part, but like when people show you who they are, again, believe them when they demonstrate.
- [100:36]
Madison
Yeah.
- [100:37]
Nick Viall
You know, immature qualities and show you that they are people who kind of of, you know, are very expressive about the things that, you know, it. It doesn't necessarily mean more than that. So sometimes they like us as much as food.
- [100:49]
Madison
Yeah.
- [100:50]
Nick Viall
You know? Yeah.
- [100:50]
Madison
No, I guess, I guess you're right. So, like, you think it's better to block him than to, like, let him
- [100:55]
Nick Viall
see that I'm like, at his entire life. Do you, do you real. Okay. Do you understand the problem with your question? Yeah.
- [101:03]
Madison
That I like, still care what he thinks? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I shouldn't care at all what he thinks.
- [101:09]
Nick Viall
I mean, that's. It's human to acknowledge that you do. And then I think that would be a sign to. Yes. Block him. Because again, blocking is, Is a boundary setting hack. That's all it is. It's all. It should be treated as. It shouldn't be used as a game playing tool. Oh, I'm. You're blocked. You can't have access to me now. And then I'm gonna like, secretly. And then like two weeks go by, I'm just gonna unblock them.
- [101:31]
Madison
Yeah.
- [101:31]
Nick Viall
And that whole game, you know, that's. That's a game playing game tool but, like, if it's. If it's you to say, all right, whatever, you know, I'm. I'm addicted to this pizza. And so I'm going to unsubscribe.
- [101:47]
Madison
Yeah.
- [101:48]
Nick Viall
So that I'm not tempted. It's. Yeah. So you gotta see it as something to help yourself. Not. Not a way to be right or validate your feelings. Like, again, he's just. It's not even necessarily with you, because, again, this is a guy who is. Literally was like, listen, I'm not this guy. I. I'm not. I'm not.
- [102:06]
Allie
Not.
- [102:06]
Nick Viall
It wasn't like, I'm dating someone else. It wasn't like, listen, I just don't. I don't like you. It is. I. I don't. You. You expect too much from me.
- [102:15]
Madison
Yeah.
- [102:16]
Nick Viall
I want to hang out with you on Saturday. I want to do whatever. I want to have so much fun with you. And I want to tell you in that moment how I feel about you in that moment. And on Tuesday, I don't want to have to expect to reach out to you, and I don't want to have to respond to text messages. Is everything okay? Just because I want to hang out with my bros or just. I don't want to care about you every day of the week, But I do like having fun with you, and you're cool. And when I am bored and when I need some company, and you are a really great option. And that's what he wants. And he's. He literally told you that.
- [102:51]
Madison
I just don't get why he would, like, buy me gifts, like, he would buy me flowers, like, when he would go.
- [102:56]
Nick Viall
Because it makes him feel good.
- [102:58]
Madison
Okay, that's just because it makes him feel like a good guy.
- [103:01]
Haley
Why?
- [103:01]
Nick Viall
Just good, you know, like, it's a love language of his. I'm an acts of service guy, right. So when I get a cup of water from my wife, I'm. I mean. I mean, sure, I'm doing it for her, but it makes me feel. It makes me feel good. Yeah, it makes me feel good that I'm showing her, you know, love. I mean, he's not showing you love, but he is showing you affection. And then you. You respond in kind, and that makes him feel good, you know? And he's. It makes him feel good to do a nice thing. Thing.
- [103:29]
Madison
Yeah.
- [103:29]
Nick Viall
You know, it's. He could afford it, you know, and he's not, you know, he didn't do it. He just. He wanted to.
- [103:36]
Madison
I just feel like that's misleading. If he didn't maybe.
- [103:39]
Nick Viall
I guess. But again, you've kind of played into allowing that. Like if, for, if you're at the store, at a grocery store and maybe you look at your cart, it's pretty full, the person behind you has like less items and, and you let them go forward. I mean, does it have to be anything more than a nice gesture?
- [103:55]
Madison
No.
- [103:55]
Nick Viall
Are you in love with them? If you let them skip ahead?
- [103:58]
Madison
No.
- [103:59]
Nick Viall
Should they read into it?
- [104:00]
Madison
No, they shouldn't.
- [104:01]
Nick Viall
It made you feel good.
- [104:03]
Madison
Okay, I guess that makes sense. And I just have to not read into every little thing so much.
- [104:08]
Nick Viall
Yeah. Listen, there's a chapter in my book, or I'm just chapter or a section or whatever and something around the. Stop asking yourself why and start asking yourself what? You are not asking yourself what happened. You are asking yourself why it happened. And the what ratters more. Yeah, like what happened was, he was like, yo, I don't want this thing, you know, I don't want you to expect. I, this is too much for me. I'm not this guy. And you're like, but why? Yeah, why, why not? Why am I not good enough for you to do that? You know? Why, why are you giving me gifts?
- [104:41]
Madison
Yeah.
- [104:42]
Nick Viall
What did he do? He got me a gift. Okay, cool. Like, it didn't come with strings attached. It didn't come with a proposal. It didn't come with a commitment. It was just a gift. And all it cost him was literally the monetary amount that he had to pay for it.
- [104:56]
Madison
Yeah.
- [104:57]
Nick Viall
And you thanked him and he felt good about it.
- [105:00]
Madison
I don't know, I just seemed like he switched up like so quick from like that first.
- [105:04]
Nick Viall
You're still, you're just, you're still stuck in the lie. You're just, you, I mean, you know, listen, I, I, we could do this for literally hours. And you, and clearly you have, you're reaching out me because you've already exhausted all your friends.
- [105:17]
Madison
Yeah.
- [105:17]
Nick Viall
And no judgment. I've been you. I've been you so many times. But it won't stop until you just want it to stop.
- [105:23]
Allie
Stop.
- [105:23]
Nick Viall
And you just have, you have to recognize how much energy and time you have wasted. And that could have gone to so many other more meaningful things in your life. Friends, family, personal career, I don't know, work, whatever. Literally anything at any point in your life, if you've ever thought, oh, that would have been cool to do. Go back to school, learn a new language. I don't know. And then you had a subsequent follow up thought which is like, I don't Know, I don't have time for the. That, Matt, is obviously, you know, a lie. You have just decided to invest and waste a lot of energy into a bunch of things you know fully well aren't good for you. But you've spent all this time not just accepting that and giving into your ego and just obsessively trying to, like, you know, get what you want.
- [106:12]
Madison
Yeah, yeah, that's. I've. That's a big thing. I. I just have tried so hard to, like. Like, to get this and, like, get what I want, and clearly it's not meant for me. So I just have to stop, like, thinking about it or giving energy to it.
- [106:24]
Nick Viall
Yeah. So. And what you can. You gotta, you know, you have to check yourself. You have to recognize that you're doing it.
- [106:29]
Madison
Yeah.
- [106:29]
Nick Viall
And then you have to go, wait, timeout, stop, stop. Think about something else. What's more productive?
- [106:35]
Madison
Yeah, I definitely do recognize it. But the hard part is stopping it.
- [106:38]
Nick Viall
You're just. You're. You're ruminating in a way that you're not checking yourself. You like, thinking about it. Bottom. It's something to do.
- [106:45]
Madison
Yeah.
- [106:46]
Nick Viall
You just gotta try to stop that.
- [106:47]
Madison
Okay.
- [106:48]
Nick Viall
But it starts with controlling your thoughts. It starts with folk, you know, literally acknowledging what you're thinking about and then shifting that focus and something more productive.
- [106:56]
Haley
Okay.
- [106:57]
Madison
Yeah, I definitely do need to start doing that just to, like, whenever I think about it, just tell myself to stop.
- [107:03]
Nick Viall
All right. Okay.
- [107:05]
Madison
All right.
- [107:06]
Nick Viall
Hopefully this was helpful.
- [107:07]
Madison
It was.
- [107:08]
Haley
It was.
- [107:09]
Madison
Thank you.
- [107:09]
Nick Viall
You. It's all up to you. You'll be done when you're ready.
- [107:12]
Madison
Yeah. Yeah, that's very true. Like, I could stop, like, thinking about this whenever I want.
- [107:16]
Nick Viall
The truth is, you just don't want to right now.
- [107:19]
Madison
Yeah.
- [107:20]
Nick Viall
You know, you're right. It's a bit of an addiction.
- [107:23]
Madison
Yeah. Because, like, I'm just, like, thinking about, like, the next time that he's gonna reach out to me. It just, like, repeats the same cycle and I have to stop.
- [107:31]
Nick Viall
So you'd at least have to own that right now. These are your choices, and this is only happening because you want it to. To. And when you're really done, you'll be done.
- [107:38]
Madison
Yeah, no, you're right. It's in my control.
- [107:40]
Nick Viall
All right.
- [107:41]
Madison
All right.
- [107:42]
Nick Viall
All right. Good luck out there.
- [107:43]
Madison
Thank you.
- [107:44]
Nick Viall
All right, take care.
- [107:45]
Madison
Bye.
- [107:46]
Nick Viall
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