E1096 - Age of Attraction w/ Jorge & John, Taylor Frankie Paul, Summer House, and Existential Crises

Summary

The Viall Files — Episode E1096: Age of Attraction w/ Jorge & John, Taylor Frankie Paul, Summer House, and Existential Crises

Date: March 19, 2026
Host: Nick Viall with Natalie Joy, Joe, Mary, and the Household
Special Guests: Jorge & John from Age of Attraction

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the Viall Files crew takes listeners through a lively roundtable on everything from intergenerational relationships (highlighting Netflix’s Age of Attraction), existential crises, and viral pop culture moments, to a juicy Summer House recap. Nick welcomes Jorge and John from Age of Attraction for a candid interview that peels back the curtain on age-gap relationship dynamics, communication struggles, and reality TV breakups. Meanwhile, the regulars reflect on life milestones, the quirks of adulthood, and evolving media literacy in the age of AI.

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Table of Contents

• Existential Quarter-Life Crises & Milestones (11:00)
• Age of Attraction Segment: Roundtable Recap (29:09)
• In-Depth Interview: Jorge & John on Age of Attraction (51:40)
• Reality TV, Conflict, and Communication (59:42)
• Summer House Midseason Recap (84:49)
• Notable Quotes & Moments

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1. Existential Quarter-Life Crises & Milestones

Timestamps: 11:18–16:32

• The team discusses pressures and expectations people face as they turn 25.

  • Mary is about to turn 25; expresses anxiety about achieving "benchmarks" her mom hit at that age but feels the generational context is so different.
  • Nick shares how 25 was "the worst birthday" for him—he was in a job he hated and going through a breakup:

    "At 25, I thought I'd have a wife, some kids, a BMW...but I had none of it." (12:24, Nick)

  • The group notes that adulthood brings moving goalposts and that many life timelines no longer apply.
  • Discussion branches into how we’re always living up to expectations set by our teenage selves—and how that creates anxiety.

• Quick diversion into math confusion:

  • The group humorously debates how to count the actual years of life lived versus age and get tangled up trying to explain birthday math for kids, leading to:

    "We're giving ourselves away that we didn't do well in math." (15:30, Joe)

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2. Age of Attraction Segment: Roundtable Recap

Timestamps: 29:09–48:36

• Nick, Natalie, Joe, and Mary recap episodes 6 and 7 of Age of Attraction.
  • Focus on the complex dynamics when families meet the couples, notably John and Teresa's significant age gap (27 years).

    "It almost feels like Romeo and Juliet—her heart is saying yes, but her head knows the realities." (32:24, Nick)

  • Discussion on age-gap relationships:
    • Pressure on older women with younger men (double standard is noted and interrogated).
    • The psychological bubble of reality TV dating.
    • Concerns over whether John really understands Teresa’s real-world anxieties, especially as family involvement brings reality home.
  • The group laughs over the sometimes blunt and even mean commentary from friends, which highlights the scrutiny age-gap couples face.
  • Universal takeaway: Relationships where there’s an age gap (or any major life difference) require addressing uncomfortable but real issues—like differing life experiences, communication habits, and the opinions of friends and family.

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3. In-Depth Interview: Jorge & John (Age of Attraction)

Timestamps: 51:40–82:39

Why Go On the Show?

• Jorge: Inspired by his grandmother’s rich life experience, wanted to try something outside his modern Miami life.
• John: Sees himself as the “poster child” for age-gap relationships; wanted to see if real connection trumps social prejudice.

Dating Older Women / Motivations

• John: Had past experience but never framed relationships by age, focusing instead on “connection above all.”
• Jorge: Had just been dumped for being too young; decided to go on the show rather than let someone else decide his self-worth.

Jorge & Vanel: Kids, Celibacy, and Reality TV Manipulation

• On whether Jorge misled Vanel about having kids:

  "I wanted to tell her in my own time—not be pushed by production. But I get how that can look slick." (56:06, Jorge)

  • Nick/John point out reality TV accelerates hard conversations, often compressing four months into a single dramatic night.

• On celibacy and boundaries:

  • John’s confusion over Vanel’s version of celibacy:

    "To give good advice and set bad examples is quite confusing… If you say celibacy, to me, there's nothing going on." (61:23, John)

  • The group agrees communication is the crux of every disagreement; miscommunication (and editing) often escalates otherwise normal tension.

John & Teresa: Family Meetings

• John was unfazed by Teresa not disclosing his age to her kids, focusing on connection over optics.

  "If we're going to make this work, her kids will see our connection and that's what matters." (66:52, John)

• On being Teresa's support system:

  • John admits he "felt heroic" always being the strong one, sometimes at the expense of having his own needs recognized.
  • After meeting Teresa’s kids, he wanted more vocal validation, but acknowledges seeing her reconnect with her children put everything in perspective.

Breakups, Conflict, and Communication

• John & Vanel’s breakup was a cumulative result of communication gaps and different conflict styles, not simply a personality mismatch or age gap.

  "She said she's used to getting her way...that's cool, but if I see something that's not correct, I'm gonna call you on it." (73:31, John)

• John reflects on feedback that he can be a "strong communicator to the point of talking at people," and is willing to adjust if it's damaging.

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4. Reality TV, Conflict, and Communication

Timestamps: 59:42–83:44

• Intense conversation about how past relationship trauma and family dynamics shape all of us; true authenticity in relationships (and on reality TV) means accepting everyone brings "a lot to deal with."

  "To be in a relationship with me is a lot—you know, we're all disasters." (40:09, Mary)

• The show debates "accidental callousness"—what’s intentional vs. obliviously hurtful.
• Loop back to Age of Attraction: Discussion of the Vancouver street incident between Jorge, Vanel, and a stranger—how protection, perception, and communication all become flashpoints in relationships and on reality TV.

---

5. Summer House Midseason Recap

Timestamps: 84:49–99:44

• Panel analyzes relationship drama, emotional confusion:
  • Mary: "Sometimes the show is too much, but I love Summer House for what it is—messy, fun, and relatable." (85:02)
  • Wes and Sierra: Messy emotional territory—does Wes really care for Sierra or just likes the chase?
  • Amanda & Kyle: Amanda wrestles with the reality of being married to a DJ; group relates to the struggle of supporting partners through shifting identities and priorities.
  • The genuine awkwardness of “being weird" around someone you like highlighted by Ben & Bailey’s saga:

    "It's so real. You become so weird when you're actually into somebody—start saying all the wrong things." (94:44, Nick)

• Love for new cast members and the evolving group dynamic; “growth” from original cast is applauded, while drama from Lindsay and Carl is humorously dissected.

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6. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Existential Themes

• Joe (12:56): "You're trying to live up to the expectations you set for yourself as a teenager, which is bizarre when you think about it, but that is what we do."
• Nick (43:13): "You also see your parents as more human and less like a hero. And you realize, oh, I do that too, probably."

Age of Attraction Interview Highlights

• Jorge (52:25): "I was thinking, what experiences did [my grandmother] have versus what experience can I make? It was a no brainer for me."
• John (61:23): "To give good advice and set bad examples is quite confusing. So what's confusing to me is if you're on that tip, we don't do nothing. There's no touching."
• Jorge (67:42): "If she doesn’t want to tell [her kids], it’s not a big deal to me. It’s her and I's relationship."

Communication & Relationship Real Talk

• Mary (40:03): "We're all disasters."
• John (74:33): "There were other things... I'm very heavy into black history—Vanilla was like, 'Who's Morris Chestnut?'"
• Joe (83:51): "Sometimes you want to know your man can protect you... but I don't need you to make a bad situation worse by puffing your chest."

Summer House Recap Gems

• Natalie & Nick (91:03): Natalie: "Suddenly I’m the wife of a DJ." Nick: "Yeah. The best is that it was like her being like, 'Hey, do you think maybe all this stress…maybe we should be cutting some of the extracurricular activities?'"
• Mary (94:55): "It's so real. You become so weird when you're actually into somebody—you start saying the wrong thing and you're overthinking it. It's like the worst."
• Joe (98:22): "There's the routine after a breakup... then you finally get to the point where you say, 'We dated? Yeah, I can't.'"

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Conclusion

This episode stands out for its authentic, vulnerable dives into the messiness of relationships—whether on reality TV, in family life, or confronting quarter-life milestones. The crew seamlessly blends humor, pop culture insight, and deep empathy. The Age of Attraction interview with Jorge and John provides rare unfiltered context on the realities of age-gap dating, communication, and negotiating one’s boundaries in high-pressure (and heavily edited) environments. The Summer House recap is a perfect balance of light gossip, real talk, and relatable life lessons.

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For listeners who missed the episode:
You’ll find laughter, nuanced debate, candid confessions, and pop culture breakdowns—all in the typical unfiltered (and often self-deprecating) Viall Files style. The tone is down-to-earth, witty, and full of the compassionate group therapy vibes we’ve come to expect from Nick and crew.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Joe]

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[Mary]

You're crazy.

[Natalie]

Perfect timing.

[Joe]

What's going on, everybody? Jack, just come on in.

[Mary]

Hi, Jack.

[Joe]

Jack. One of our very talented editors here is bringing in a coffee. Look at that little, little bts here at the Vile Files.

[Natalie]

Jack, wave to everybody.

[Mary]

Yeah, J.

[Natalie]

Wave to everybody.

[Mary]

Oh my God.

[Natalie]

You know when you take a sip of a coffee and you're just like, wow, that's good. Yeah.

[Nick]

I didn't even need you to finish the sentence.

[Jorge]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

You knew exactly what I was gonna say. Yeah.

[Mary]

And it is. Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Mary]

The cloud falling out this morning.

[Joe]

Well, what is going on, everybody?

[Natalie]

What is going on, everybody? We are joined by.

[Joe]

Joined by a full household of wonderful ladies.

[Natalie]

As it should be. Ladies and women.

[Nick]

Actually, Nick, I think you can go home. The women in it.

[Natalie]

Even better. Is palpable.

[Nick]

They're even two in Natalie's stomach.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Wow.

[Natalie]

There's a lot of women even here. And I have all of their eggs

[Nick]

in my stomach as well. This is crazy.

[Natalie]

Lots of estrogen.

[Nick]

I'm feeling so happy.

[Natalie]

I love it.

[Nick]

Surrounded by the positive energy.

[Natalie]

I'm not feeling light, but you look good.

[Nick]

I am. You do look it. Happy.

[Natalie]

I had a breakdown last night.

[Joe]

We're getting into occasional life, you know, it's tough. It's a lot.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

You know, you just like blink and then you're. You're just. You got this massive belly. You can't really do much. I'm like already waddling. I'm like, this feels too early for that. And I just started crying last night and I was like, I just feel so big and like rivers being like, mama run, mama dance, mama jump. And I'm like, mama can't because the baby will fall out of me. I'm sorry.

[Nick]

Not fall out of you.

[Mary]

It will hopefully.

[Natalie]

And hopefully they do when the time is right.

[Nick]

There's not a lot of pushes. Yeah.

[Natalie]

Natalie. The one perk though is that now

[Nick]

that I'm so large I can. I can rest.

[Natalie]

Louis right on top.

[Nick]

Ooh, yeah. Helps with the weight distribution.

[Natalie]

Interesting.

[Joe]

Louie doesn't, like, go top rope and, like, jump on you like river does with Natalie.

[Nick]

Top rope. Top rope.

[Joe]

Wrestling reference.

[Nick]

Yes.

[Joe]

You know, they go.

[Mary]

I was thinking climb.

[Natalie]

I don't understand the wrestling reference.

[Nick]

It makes sense now. Like, once you said it's a wrestling reference, I'm like, oh, yeah. On top of the rope.

[Joe]

Yep.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Natalie]

I mean, yeah.

[Nick]

He was, like, hitting me with a bat yesterday.

[Natalie]

Look. Okay. Boy, Mom, I just set my Chick Fil a chicken sandwich on my stomach yesterday. Oh, yeah. As a table.

[Mary]

That's really cool.

[Joe]

Did you get a picture of that?

[Mary]

I did.

[Joe]

Good.

[Nick]

I feel like that's the perks.

[Natalie]

I did your book. Watch stories. Yeah, he doesn't watch my stories, guys. He does not watch my Instagram stories.

[Joe]

I try to be off line.

[Natalie]

Hell, no.

[Nick]

You don't want to know what your wife is posting.

[Natalie]

You've been posting a lot of art,

[Nick]

so you have a lot of art happening. Kind of impressive.

[Natalie]

But he's. He's.

[Mary]

He's posting from a place of baroness, so it's okay.

[Joe]

Yeah. I mean, yeah.

[Mary]

No, you have, like, your art.

[Joe]

It calms me. Yeah, yeah. And I hope if I can just calm one other person in the world, I have done my job. There you go.

[Natalie]

You said it's kind of intricate, the art. Like, with the chalk.

[Nick]

Yes. He's good. How long did that take?

[Joe]

Anywhere from like 10 to 30 minutes.

[Nick]

Okay. Per square?

[Joe]

Per square. Yeah. Yeah.

[Natalie]

Trevor is not allowed to help. She honestly is not even allowed to be outside.

[Joe]

I'm drawing between the dogs and her walking over it. You know, it's fine.

[Nick]

People just don't appreciate art.

[Joe]

Chalk is a very forgiving medium.

[Natalie]

Medium, medium.

[Nick]

How many artists, how many tiles do you have left?

[Joe]

We're running out in the backyard, but I will just pressure wash it.

[Nick]

You're just going to hose it down?

[Joe]

Hose it down and start over. That's the nice thing. It's like. It's kind of pretty easy to do, you know, there's not a lot of setup.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe]

You know, painting. Oh, my God, it's such a process.

[Nick]

Right?

[Natalie]

But what if you make one that you really love and then you can't keep it?

[Mary]

Take a nice.

[Nick]

Take the tile out and put it in the garage.

[Joe]

Of course. Do it again.

[Mary]

Yeah. Or, like, take a nice picture of

[Natalie]

it enough to do it again. Yeah, It's. It's a journey. Any art that I made that Was good enough. Was an accident. So I like, are you keeping, like, every little thing that Louis draws on? So now that he's in school, he comes back with a lot of projects. And I actually was wondering, like, what to do a lot of them.

[Nick]

I'm just like, what?

[Joe]

This is big and I don't know

[Natalie]

what to do with it. Yikes.

[Nick]

Don't have the room for all on my dining room.

[Joe]

My mom sent me the other day, I think, you know, when I. When I draw, my mom gets a little giddy. Reminds her but of. It was like a Father's Day card that I made of my dad. And it's like a stick figure of me and my dad. And it says, dear dad, you just

[Natalie]

drew a stick figure.

[Joe]

I hadn't really.

[Natalie]

Just lock your screen.

[Joe]

Evolve yet. Lock the screen. Okay, Sorry. You are a great dad. You are a good dad. Thank you for all the good things you have done. I hope you have a nice Father's Day. You are the greatest dad in the world. Love, Nick. And it was just, here's dad, here's me. And then there's a bubble. You're the greatest. And apparently I have sunglasses on. And my dad has a mustache.

[Nick]

Let me see. It's actually so sweet.

[Natalie]

She kept that.

[Jorge]

Yeah.

[Nick]

All those years.

[Natalie]

So it is hard to do. You have, like, a giant box of river stuff. Well, she's not in school, so any crafts must be done with someone involved, you know, which sometimes is a bit of a mess headache in our house. But there are. We have a few. My mom, when my mom was in town, she, like, did her hand prints. Like, that stuff's cute. Now that it's Easter, we'll do her footprints, like, make them into carrots, you know, like, cute. We try to be cute. Today she's painting. I like those. They're like ceramic. They're like the little paint kits, like, ceramic things. And it comes with the little paint. It comes with a paintbrush. And you just, like, give. I will, like, buy. I bought. I found one at home goods the other day. Bought that for her.

[Mary]

That's.

[Natalie]

That'll keep her busy for, like, at home.

[Nick]

Color me line.

[Natalie]

Oh, my God. Yeah, girl.

[Mary]

Mom.

[Nick]

That'll keep her busy.

[Mary]

I love that for you.

[Natalie]

The long coloring. The huge, like, coloring papers that, like, stick on a table. Oh, yeah. Those are like a big, big fan in our house with those.

[Joe]

Because they don't move well.

[Natalie]

Yeah. And because they cover everything she shouldn't be coloring on, you know, but anyways,

[Joe]

also, don't forget Val files plus is ad free. So if you want to listen to all your favorite Vile Files episodes ad free, you get to do that now on Vile Files Plus. Plus get some amazing content when we dive deep into your favorite reality recap episodes like Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and the Bachelorette in Age of Attraction. Get some behind the scenes and we really get into the nitty gritty on some of your favorite shows and all the things going on in those universes as well as your Pop Extra. All your favorite pop culture topics that we didn't get to talk about like Mary wants to talk about Club Chalamet retiring.

[Mary]

It's really important tune into for sure for a State of the Union.

[Joe]

Also a lot of interesting things going on in the ecosystem. Jake Shane is under fire on definitely team Jake Shane here. But like the responsibility of podcasters, you know, doing red carpets and interviewing celebrities and how your more typical legacy entertainment journalists feel a certain way about it and who's right, who's wrong. I have a lot to say about that topic and we will certainly dive into that on Pop Extra this week and maybe a little bit next week on Reality Recap. But certainly get it first on Vile Files. Plus also don't forget Netflix Is a Joke is coming up May 4th and we are with the new cast of Temptation. I know you don't know them yet because the next episode hasn't come out yet. But remember, it is a great show that's super messy, a lot of fun and we'll be with that cast on May 4th in LA. It's going to be a live show to be a lot of fun. So if you're looking for something to do and have a fun night out, we are super excited to be with the next cast of Temptation Island. Get tickets now go to our link in the show description or vile files.com well, we do have a great episode lined up for you today. We have from the great hit show Age of Attraction. Jorge and John are with us to talk about their journeys. We will unpack. There's a new batch of episodes out on Netflix now. Episodes six and seven.

[Mary]

What was that?

[Joe]

Six and seven? Guys, let's, let's not be, let's not be the out of touch parents because I was at the playground with river as I often do to end my day and I overheard a couple of kids talking to some other kids about how like not cool 67 is anymore.

[Mary]

I was told that yeah, it's uncon chop because older people are doing it now. But you know what, as someone who's having a crisis because I'm about to turn 25. I'm claiming it. I'm taking it all.

[Joe]

When's your 25th birthday?

[Mary]

Monday.

[Joe]

Worst birthday of my life.

[Mary]

Cool.

[Nick]

So much forward. Wait, Nick, What. What happened?

[Natalie]

Yeah. Because he realized that his life was not going in the direction that he had planned. Quarter life crisis.

[Joe]

Yeah. I hope your birthday is better than mine. And I like to think your life is a lot more exciting than mine was. But at the time I turned 25, I was in the middle of one of the many breakups I was going through with my first girlfriend. I was an accountant at a job I hated. I was. I did not drive a BMW.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Joe]

Which when I was 18, I was

[Mary]

like, at 25, I'm gonna drive.

[Joe]

Like, I'm gonna have a wife and some kids and a BMW, and. And that will be the definition of success. And I had no wife, no friends, no. Okay, calm down. And I just was like, I'm 25. And I was like, I. Nothing. I'm not doing anything that I thought I would. I have no prospects.

[Natalie]

I feel like you're on a better track than that.

[Joe]

I'm not doing anything. I enjoy, guys.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

It's got to be pretty good.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Joe]

You're 20, your early 20s. You're trying to live up to the expectations you set for yourself as a teenager, which is bizarre when you think about it, but that is what we do. And, like, life comes at you fast, and 25 seems such, like, a milestone when you're younger, and then you hit it so quickly, and you're like, it's

[Mary]

like, my mom had, like, a kid.

[Joe]

Yeah. No, it's just like.

[Mary]

And I am. I got like, oh, do you think

[Natalie]

she'll buy me 25th?

[Joe]

Your mom had a kid, and you're still dealing with the Sunday scaries. You know, it's like, yeah.

[Natalie]

Like, I got pregnant with river at 24. Wow. That is crazy.

[Mary]

Yeah. And I'm like, do I. Can my mom buy me a straightener for my birthday? Like, do I think that'll be, like, a good thing for her to get me for my birthday? Like, that's where I'm at right now. And so I'm like, okay, 25.

[Joe]

It's a tough. It's a tough birthday sometimes.

[Mary]

It's like, some of my friends are getting married. Other ones are like, okay, I'm gonna go to grad school. So it's like, there's a lot of different things happening.

[Nick]

Totally.

[Joe]

You know, it's a. It's a false Measuring stick. That really creates a lot of anxiety. But happy birthday, Mary. Thanks.

[Mary]

It's not my birthday yet. I'm still a young whippersnapper of 24. I'm not. I'm not ank yet.

[Joe]

25 was also the first birthday where, like, I felt my. You know, it was like, I don't want to tell people I'm 20. Like, it was like, yeah.

[Natalie]

It was like, Sting that night.

[Joe]

I'm almost dead.

[Natalie]

He's. Yeah.

[Mary]

I'm like, I should be taken out.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Have you heard the theory about your birthday, though, or, like, your age is that you're actually turning the age you've been all year on your birthday, not you're turning in your 25th year.

[Mary]

Like, I. I'll be entering. My grandpa always used to say that you're, like, entering, like, your 26th year when you turn 25.

[Nick]

You know what I saw?

[Mary]

Which is also how the health insurance companies feel.

[Nick]

You know what I saw, too, that was interesting. And I was actually thinking about this. I was like, how is it that

[Natalie]

Louis was born in 2024 and now it's 2026? So he's been alive for. Through, like, three years, but he's not even two.

[Joe]

Math is hard.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Whoo.

[Natalie]

That just sent me through a spiral, I'll tell you that much.

[Mary]

Right.

[Natalie]

That makes no sense. He's seen 2024, 2025, and now 2026, and he's not even two. Yeah. But not all of 2026.

[Joe]

Well, based on that information, and I don't know when his birthday is, I'm guessing he was born at the end of a year.

[Natalie]

No, July.

[Joe]

So middle of the year, we're in the beginning.

[Nick]

Beginning.

[Joe]

Ish. Of another year.

[Nick]

I think it's because of exactly what Mary said. Because you're like, you basically don't count.

[Joe]

Guys, we're giving ourselves away that we. We didn't do well in math.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Nick]

We're an entertainment.

[Natalie]

We're in entertainment.

[Mary]

We're actually talking about this yesterday that we were both so good at, like, in, like, our AP lit and Lang classes, and we could anything. And then I was like, yeah. No. One time I literally cried during a pre calc.

[Joe]

I believe that namously wrote. I'm sorry.

[Mary]

I wrote that on my. On my AP Stat exam. I wrote I'm sorry on one page.

[Natalie]

I love every single math test.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

In college.

[Mary]

It's real as fun.

[Natalie]

Sorry. Like, and with a sad face, I would add.

[Mary]

Yeah. It's like, listen.

[Natalie]

Really?

[Joe]

She's like, this will definitely at least give me a D. They're not going to fail me.

[Natalie]

And sometimes she'd write back, say, it's okay.

[Mary]

We're not all, like, numerically gifted, right?

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Joe]

Well, we do have that great episode lined up for you today. Age of Attraction, Jorge and John. We also have the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives episodes that get into.

[Natalie]

Well, speaking of numbers, we have Age of Attraction, Jorge and John.

[Joe]

And we'll get into Jorge side of the Vanille and Jorge discussion. Discussion. Disagreement where they're not seeing eye to eye. And so we'll get some more information on that. Obviously, a lot of conversations are going on in the Internet regarding Secret Lives of Mormon Wives in the upcoming season of the Bachelorette. Centering around our Bachelorette, Taylor, Frankie Paul. It's obviously overwhelming the news and the headlines. You know, it's very difficult to talk about, and I don't think we have the right things to say right now. Obviously, these are very serious allegations in a very sensitive topic. Out of respect for those involved, we're just not going to comment on the details of this story regarding Taylor in Dakota. So. But, you know, it seems, it does seem like the Bachrat is going to continue to air and they are moving forward, and we have the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. So we are going to continue to try to talk about these shows as best we can, knowing that there's a lot of sensitivity around these very serious topics. And we'll do our best, but, you know, obviously it's, it's, you know, our. We're just thinking about all those involved because it's, it's, as Taylor said, a very heavy and serious situation. And our hearts just go out to all these people.

[Natalie]

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[Joe]

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[Natalie]

L. You know how you try to come for me for Ryan Gosling's Hail Mary that he threw through that donut? Then you were like, that's AI. That's AI. And it definitely wasn't, well, guess what? All of Zendaya's wedding photos that you thought were real were in fact AI.

[Mary]

How does it feel to have gotten it?

[Natalie]

How do you feel got got by AI?

[Joe]

So I'm confused.

[Natalie]

That photo that you're like, I just

[Mary]

saw this a photo of them, they got married.

[Natalie]

It was like such a clear photo of him.

[Joe]

It definitely wasn't there.

[Natalie]

You pulled up the picture and you were like, look, it's them at the altar, the priests that's marrying them.

[Joe]

It's like how that's how I sounded.

[Natalie]

And I was like, I don't know, I feel like maybe that's not real.

[Joe]

I don't remember being like, this is definitely real. I just remember being like, oh, you

[Nick]

did say, I saw the photos this morning. They were at the altar.

[Joe]

So yeah. And I yes.

[Nick]

And it was a still from the

[Joe]

same way you thought Ryan Gosling had a cannon of an arm, which he does.

[Natalie]

Wait, it was real. Hasn't been proven.

[Mary]

Oh well, here's the thing. Both Ryan Gosling and Zendaya and Tom Holland did are all multi talented. So it's like easy to be confused by AI versions of them being even more talented and amazing because you already

[Natalie]

think it's honestly hard to believe anything.

[Nick]

Anything.

[Natalie]

I mean, everything I see, I'm like, is it AI. I don't know.

[Nick]

I don't know. Oh, wait, didn't. Oh. Matthew McConaughey recently purchased the rights to his voice. Yeah, his voice and I think also his image. So that, like, if they wanted to use AI or something, it's something terrifying

[Mary]

world we live in that you may one day have to purchase the rights to yourself.

[Joe]

He is a. He's like a pioneer in the sense that he's like, telling all his peers and industry people to do this. There's no like. Like, there's no playbook or there's no, like, industry people saying, all right, before we embrace AI, let's make sure we protect all of our. But people. It's like if. If you're smart enough, like Matthew McConaughey, you can do it, but if you're someone else who's like, maybe an up and comer, doesn't have a full team, doesn't have the awareness to do that.

[Nick]

I just saw a commercial maybe yesterday, actually. Connor and I were watching something and it had commercials, and I can't remember what the product was, but the whole thing was Jurassic park. And it was the first Jurassic park with Laura Dern and male lead. Male actor. That's the dinosaur bones. Okay, that guy. So they did a whole commercial in AI and like, bad AI, like, when the guy's face turns, it like morphs into, like, kind of like something else a little bit. Like, it's just like, it's bad AI. Lord Dern's face is looking wonky. And it's just like they. They didn't even have, like, the most, like, intense upto date AI and they still put this commercial.

[Joe]

If we're going to talk AI because this is. Is crazy. The guy, the. The CEO of Chat GPT or whatever, open AI, yeah, he was doing some kind of, like, business conference. And it's my. Like, I don't like, you know, as a. As a business owner. I, you know, you guys know, like, I think we should look into embracing AI. You know, I think there's elements of, like, I. You know, to me, AI is a tool like anything else. And the. And tools are only as good as how you use the tools, right? Like, you know, if you. If you use a screwdriver to hammer in a nail might not be that effective. You know what I'm saying? And like, AI, if you're using AI to think for you, to do your homework, to be like, hey, write me an essay on like, the American Revolution, you're not going to learn. You're not Going to develop skills. If you use AI to say, all right, you have to come up with the interesting questions. You have to have it help you in things like that. But what seems to be happening now is like, like, especially kids, we're all just. We're not learning, we're getting lazier, we're getting dumber. We're having AI do all this work for us. That's not a tool. That is like watering down our own intelligence. Anyways, the. The CEO of, of OpenAI was giving some conference and he, he said, and he got a lot of crit, like, this is the only thing I've ever seen the entire Internet rally behind an agreement, which is like, he sees knowledge as a utility. And what he meant by that is like, he sees open AI or other AI companies charging for information.

[Nick]

Yeah, there it is.

[Joe]

Like, like, so, so first, you know, OpenAI was open source. It's free. It's. It's a, it's a public service. You know, we're all going to put it out there for all of us to use. And so right now we're all using it and most of it aren't using it as a tool. A tool to like, not help. Not. Not to do our work for us, but to help us do some of the busy work faster so we can be more creative. It will not come up with cool ideas for us. Like, that's not what AI does. Like, as according to our Ben, Ben Affleck, you know, he talked about how AI just kind of like, keeps you in the mean, but, like, they're now going to dumb us down. They're going to make us all stupid.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Joe]

And then when we're all stupid, they're going to be like, now pay for the 99.

[Nick]

You're not going to get us.

[Joe]

Seriously, it's terrifying.

[Mary]

I'm kind of of the belief with AI that it's like, I think that if. Have you guys seen the Lorax? The movie version of the Lorax.

[Joe]

I'm familiar with it.

[Mary]

Well, basically, in the movie version of the Lorax, they make everyone pay for air. And it's kind of, I believe, if I'm wrong, clown me, whatever. I have a point. I do think with AI and thinking about Matthew McConaughey, it's like, it should be the opposite. Matthew McConaughey should not have to buy back the rights to his voice and his identity from AI. AI should have to purchase those rights from the human being. And it's all reversed. And it's basically, there's this assumption that once technology exists, exists, we immediately become indebted to that technology instead of that technology being indebted to us as the people that created it. And I just feel like there's this weird, like, dynamic going on that we just have to like, it's here. Let's just do it. And it's like, yeah, I think it's a tool. But tools are very, very dangerous to a lot of people because you cannot trust humanity to make good decisions with those tools. Famously humanity.

[Joe]

But don't worry.

[Mary]

Pretty bad decisions with tools that they're given.

[Joe]

The head of the companies will protect us and charge us a utility knowledge and information.

[Nick]

But it also reminds me of just like, even with like, when streaming services came out, right? And it was like this like, ingenious idea of like, oh, my God, okay, I pay 7.99 and I have access to all of this commercial free. Like, why do I even need cable? So you start canceling your cable subscription. You're like, they're only 5.99. Really, 7.99. I. I'm paying way less for all these streaming services than I'm paying for cable. Next thing you know, now it's like add tier. Next thing you know, now you have to pay for the premium. Premium's $30. But hey, you might get a bundle with it. And it's just like, yet again, like, something that thinking that it was giving you convenience is now become a burden. Where it's like, it probably would be cheaper to have cable nowadays than all premium services.

[Mary]

The illusion of choice and the illusion of free will.

[Nick]

Thank you.

[Joe]

Do you remember how great it was on a Saturday late afternoon to go into Blockbuster?

[Nick]

Oh, yeah.

[Natalie]

Oh, yeah.

[Mary]

I used to go to Blockbuster and

[Joe]

it just like finding a movie and like, was it there? Was it not there? Then you'd go to the counter, be like, did anyone return? You guide me. Yeah, I'll take it. You know, it's just like, that was a whole thing that was like. People made core memories doing that stuff.

[Mary]

Have you guys ever seen the holiday?

[Nick]

Yes.

[Joe]

Oh, my God.

[Mary]

You know, when Jack. When Jack Black and Kate wins. It's one of the most romantic scenes I've ever seen in my entire life. It's like just the two of them in that Blockbuster and he's talking about scores and they're just having this moment and then Dustin Hoffman's there. But, like, it's just there's. There's a tangible element to so much stuff and so much connection. Like when you find those things and places like that, like a blockbuster, like those, like, communal spaces. Like a movie theater.

[Nick]

Yeah. Like, what did you grab?

[Mary]

Yeah. Like, are so important. Like, what kind of candy do you like? And those things that, like these, like streamers and, like, all of this thing being immediate and giving you this immediate access, like, takes away that space for the connection with the people that you love.

[Joe]

Anyway, hug your friends. Hug your friends.

[Mary]

Sorry again. I'm almost turning 25.

[Natalie]

She's sentimental.

[Mary]

These. My frontal lobe is forming in a

[Joe]

world where we need wholesome, quality television that doesn't feel toxic or too heavy. Thank God we have Age of Attraction.

[Nick]

Thank God.

[Mary]

It really is kind of like a breath. Like, I didn't expect it to be so, like, light and fulfilling.

[Joe]

Well, it's a. It's a. It's a titillating topic of age differences that it. That, you know, it's interesting to a lot of people. But I said this when the show was about to come out. But, like, I love. Obviously, I love being a part of the show, but I love that they were having these interesting scenes that are relatable. There's a heaviness to them a little bit, but it's not so much like, there's not like a good person or a bad person. There's no hero and villain. There's like, there's like. You know, I kind of understand this point. I kind of understand that point.

[Natalie]

Well, we did covering episodes six and seven, they dropped last night. And we're meeting families.

[Nick]

I love Meet the Family situation.

[Mary]

It's always so good.

[Natalie]

It's always, like, stakes. I love Wake Up.

[Nick]

Didn't know who was coming. So I do, like, the aspect of, like, some of it was like, the Pfeiffer being like, oh, my God, it's my parents. And I have never seen them together in, like, 10 years. And, like, so cute, but so interesting. Like, you know what I mean? It makes that whole, like, meeting Derek so much more interesting because you're, like, watching Pfeiffer and, like, how is she handling everything? And the fact that they were like, oh, my God, she's so comfortable. But anyways, no, it was so cute. And, like, some of them are. Had their kids, the Teresa and John of it all.

[Joe]

It's also a reminder, which I love introducing the family specifically on Age of Attraction. But just kind of, whether it's the Bachelor in its hometowns or whatever, is that, like, it. It really. It should remind the audience that these people truly are in a bubble. Right? And just like in the real world, where we fall in love and like, we just kind of isolate and we kind of like go off to never never land with the person we're dating. And we don't. We kind of disappear and we fall in love, right? And we kind of like. And maybe we're dating someone, we're like, I don't know if this is gonna work out, you know, I don't know what my friends are gonna think, but we just kind of do it anyways. And then at some point, we have to have those conversations with our friends and family. And then. And then there's this kind of like, reminder of like the real world. Right. And so when you're seeing Teresa have a bit of a meltdown, she clearly has this connection with John. Yeah, these. There's these real feelings and pro. And up into this point, I think that Theresa has been kind of. When these kind of negative thoughts come in or these fears or concerns, up until this point, she's been like, I don't need to worry about that right now. I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna push that away, you know? And that's such a relatable, normal feeling when we are falling for someone where we're like, we're not sure what our friends or family are going to think about it. And now with these shows, we hit them with a, well, whether you're ready or not, we're going to do this. And you see this kind of like with Teresa, this, holy shit, the make believe's over, you know, the pretend world is over. And now I have to start thinking about what is this relationship with John look like outside of this bubble if I choose to continue to be in it? And it's pretty fascinating.

[Nick]

Is, are they the biggest age gap where the woman is older than the man? Are they the biggest.

[Natalie]

Yeah, 27 years.

[Nick]

Yeah, that's. I find them so interesting because I feel like her heart, it's basically her heart is telling her one thing and then her mind is saying something else. And I kind of get it. Like, I can see that there's something so special there. But watching them, it almost feels like Romeo and Juliet. Like a love that, you know, is. Was probably not realistic.

[Joe]

Yeah. I asked John about this in the upcoming interview, but I thought it was really interesting. They talked to John after the whole. He met his kids and he was frustrated because he felt like Teresa didn't like, gas up their relationship a lot and he felt like, oh, she was more focused on our insecurities and she didn't like, talk about our connection. And yet John left. And then Teresa's kids were like, you're clearly happy. You look so great. And it was like. I thought it was this interesting that John made an assumption of what he thought Teresa should say and what it meant for his kids and didn't trust Theresa that she obviously understood her kids and what they needed and they needed in that relationship. And her kids responded exactly how John wanted her to respond, which is to see that connection. And they clearly did. And yet John had a completely different interpretation.

[Natalie]

Meanwhile, John's mom and sister are, like, kind of. I mean, more judgy. Yeah, Definitely not giving. I mean, it's just like, clearly she's older. And I understood their pact of being like, hey, let's not. Like, if you're gonna go in there and be like, hey, she has three kids. Like, that's gonna give them an idea of my. Like, let's just leave all of that. Let's let them get to know me. We don't. We can bring all that information later. They went in with that pact, and then he's like, yeah, she's got kids.

[Nick]

Yeah, she's 54.

[Natalie]

Before.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

And it. And then they're like, well, that's just so weird that she didn't tell us. And it's like, well, wait a second. Like, yeah, they went in there together with that plan. Like, I don't think he's showing his age.

[Mary]

Yeah, he's showing his age.

[Natalie]

Showing his age. He's getting around his family being like, he. He. Ha ha.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

Let me tell you guys what's up

[Joe]

and what's really interesting, especially, again, we talked about this on Tuesday. When you have, like, the age difference in an older person, a younger person, again, I think the.

[John]

The.

[Joe]

The older person is always gonna have that concern that. That the younger person has the life experience to handle, the baggage we bring into this relationship, whatever that, you know. And you see that with Jon and Teresa, you know, him. Her kind of constantly questioning him. It's interesting from John because up until this point, John's been kind of Teresa's rock. Hey, I'm not concerned. I'm not worried. We have a strong connection, which I think is. You know, it's great to hear him say that. That. But there's a part of me that feels like he's not really listening to her concerns and not really understanding what she's trying to articulate to him of, like, what life is going to be out in the real world. And it will be interesting if they do decide to move on into the real world. What will change from John's perspective? Because at some point, like, they are going to have to deal with their age difference. Like, we had to deal with that. You know, it comes up, and you can't always just be like. Like, whatever. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Sometimes you have to just acknowledge that the age difference does matter and that it does. You will have to deal with it in different ways than you would a relationship that doesn't. And I'm curious how those two would navigate it if they decide to stay together.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know who else showed their age? Chris. Yeah, Chris. With his mommy at the table.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Nick]

That was wild. As soon as Leah leaves, he's just like, mom, mom, look at me. She's like, you seem so happy.

[Natalie]

He's like, look at me and tell me that this is not normal, because

[Mary]

I want to go to the gym

[Natalie]

very much giving, like. Like, I'm gonna text you and you call me and say, like, oh, my God, you lost your key. And I need. Like, I have to get out of a bad day.

[Nick]

How to get out of a bad day.

[Natalie]

It was very much giving. I was like, mom, I don't look happy, right? Like, I look sleepy, right, Mom?

[Nick]

He could tell me, is this what a relationship is supposed to be like,

[Mary]

which is so unfortunate. And Leah is just there, like, putting her heart out on the line for this.

[Natalie]

Literally her saying, love you. I was like, yes.

[Joe]

No, I don't think watching it back because again, some of these scenes we didn't have the benefit of watching in real time, but watching it back. Yeah. I think Chris has been very cavalier, I think, with Leah's feelings, and I don't think he understands how important this is to her. And, you know, everyone who goes on reality tv, they. They come in with different expectations. I think most people go on the Bachelor, it's like, this is going to be a crazy experience. But, like, you can go. Like, I've always joked, like, yeah, I went on the Bachelorette because I've never been to Europe, you know, and that's true. I wanted to travel. But when I got there and I said, okay, well, I'm going to lean into this experience. It very quickly got very serious, and then all of a sudden, I am opening up and being vulnerable and talking about my feelings. Other people, you know, you go on the show with, you never see them kind of lock in, you know, maybe because they don't develop a connection with the lead. And then all of a sudden, you feel this very different experience. From what you're experiencing, from people who are sitting across on the couch from you and they're just having fun and drinking, whatever. And I, I'm getting that sense from, from Leah and Chris where like she's very like, I'm, I'm, I want to find love. I shockingly found this connection with this younger man. I'm going to give it a shot. And I'm, I'm, I'm worried that Chris has alternative motives.

[Mary]

I have a question for the room. Do you. What are your guys feelings on? Like not necessarily in reality tv, but the idea of like a person who is like accidentally cavalier with people's feelings.

[Joe]

How do you mean accidentally?

[Mary]

Like I think sometimes in relationships you, I. The idea of like you're trying to be nice because you like a person, right? But then you accidentally, it, you know, there's like things that get misconstrued, whatever lines get blurred. Like what are your. Because I think it's unfair. I think sometimes in these situations you look at Leah and Chris and you're looking like, how could Chris just be kind of like leading her on like that when he obviously doesn't.

[Joe]

You know, I think part of it too, specifically with the age differences. I mean, what is. It's always the same. It's like I'm an old soul, you know, I'm mature for my age. And you can both be mature for your age and still have aspects of you that are immature. You know, there are some aspects that you, you know, Chris, he's talked about how he's really stepped up for his family. His dad sounds like he's having some health issues. He seems like at a very young age he's really stepping up in a meaningful way. And that takes a lot of maturity, you know. And so he could be very mature on that aspect of his life and completely immature when it comes to handling relationships. And someone who comes in with, you know, I say like, like past trauma from relationships. When we are all out there dating and I was, you know, taking a river to the park and thinking about this, I think a healthy, when we go out there and dating, you know, if you're out there still dating, I think a healthy baseline to recognize is that like to be in a relationship with me is a lot, you know,

[Nick]

like, are you saying everybody or you?

[Joe]

No, everyone. Like everyone who's out there. Like we're, you know, you go online right now and it's always like there's so many bad options. All the men suck, all the women, you know, are terrible or What? From the opposite side of the aisle. And we're always complaining about it, but, like, when was the last time? It's just like, I. Boy, I'm. I make a great first impression, but, boy, a year in, I have a lot of needs. I have a lot going on. When we date, we act like. Like, sure, I have some things I can work on, but overall, I'm just, like, really fun.

[Nick]

Wait, are you calling me out right

[Natalie]

now like, this is me?

[Mary]

No, here's the thing. It's like, all of that is true, but then at the same time, it's like, like, yeah, we're all fucking disasters.

[Nick]

And, like, totally.

[Joe]

We're just all a lot to deal with.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Joe]

And think about year three, you know,

[Natalie]

and think about how Logan felt watching that sex scene play out where she's, like, explaining to him about foreplay.

[Mary]

You know, I do want to. I do want to just say, logan, great. Great vibe. Great guy.

[Joe]

You took one for the team.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Joe]

Libby and Andrew, I feel like, you know, they're doing.

[Mary]

They seem good.

[Joe]

They seem great. I think they're getting a lot of criticism because she looks bubbly and fun and that reads young and. And, you know, I mean, her friend was brutal.

[Nick]

And hitting him with the. He could use some Botox.

[Natalie]

Yeah. Like, damn, bitch.

[Joe]

Yeah, that was like. That's the. It's just like. That's not funny. That's just mean.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

Like, say that to me. Like, not in front of his face.

[Nick]

Maybe, like, not the first time you meet him.

[Natalie]

You know what I mean?

[Nick]

Like, we could joke about it, like, later, but it was just. But at the same time, I'm like, I do. Like, I did like, her friends that I was like, they were honest. And I'm like, I. I appreciate that. Like, have your opinion. I don't think it needed to be that brutally honest.

[Joe]

Well, what's interesting is, like, we all have friends like that, and I thought he handled it pretty because, like, you know, if you are going to date someone younger, they might be mature for their age, and you might have a great connection, but just doesn't mean all their friends are.

[Nick]

Yeah, right.

[Joe]

You know, and if you want to date them, you still have to accept that part of their life isn't going to connect with yours and you. And you can't come into this and say, you got to shut that all down. You know, you got to be like me. You know, that's not how it works. You have. You have to find that middle ground. You know?

[Natalie]

Know, it's like Nick with some of my friends. He'll be like, the way he tries

[Nick]

to connect with them.

[Natalie]

And he'll be like, so, Chambliss, tell me, like, three things in your life that you're loving right now and that are just inspiring you and motivating you. And she's like, nick, this is such a Nick ass question.

[Nick]

She's like, I came prepared.

[Mary]

You're like, why do I feel like this is a going deeper?

[Natalie]

Like, I didn't, you know, like, hey, how are you?

[Mary]

I'm good.

[Natalie]

All right, let's move on.

[Joe]

You know, we are a lot to deal with.

[Mary]

We are all a lot to deal with.

[Nick]

We really are.

[Natalie]

I just think was having a notes

[Nick]

app now, just like, coming up with answers just in case.

[Joe]

Well, also, I don't know. You know those commercials where you're like, you're just like your parents.

[Natalie]

Oh, my God.

[Joe]

Every day I get older is every day I'm like, I'm my dad, you know, And I love. My dad's my hero. I love so much about my dad. But like, like realizing I was more like my dad than I realized, I just is something that kind of throws you off and, you know, and you see as you get older, you also see your parents as more human and less, like, heroish. And you see their flaws as lovely as they are and the things they bring. And you realize, oh, I do that too, probably. Yeah, like, oh, that. Okay, yeah. So that's the thing that all my exes got, right?

[Mary]

Okay.

[Joe]

Yeah, no. Okay, cool.

[Nick]

It's wild. Life is funny. No, And I feel like, especially. Especially for, like, teenage girls. I feel like you kind of spend that entire time making sure you're nothing like your mom. And then it's like, later on in life, you're like, oh, shit. I do. Where do I get this from? And then you're like, yeah, yeah.

[Mary]

Sometimes when I'm like, okay, I guess I just won't say anything, I'm like, oh, why? Also, I've realized that I'm like my dad so much, which he might be listening to this. I dad. But yeah, I realized he's a very. Like, I'm not going to say anything about how my internal feelings ever. And I'm like, wait, Fuck, I do that.

[Nick]

I literally thought about these commercials yesterday because I had a guy come to fix the air conditioning and Connor wasn't there. But when he was leaving, he, like, had gone up to the roof, came back, and he was like, yeah, was your compressor broken or something? And I go, I genuinely have no idea what that means, but thank you. And he was like. He laughed at me and was like, you know, sometimes, like a bunch of people, like, they just ask, and then I realize that I'm explaining it to them and they have no idea. And then I thought to myself constantly, Connor. Connor would 100% be like, okay. So, like, was it the.

[Natalie]

Was it the. The fluid?

[Nick]

Did it need to be replaced? And it's like, you don't know. Why are we doing this? Why are we making this man explain?

[Natalie]

After he explains it, you're still gonna

[Nick]

be like, okay, okay, great.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

I thought Pfeiffer and Derrick's was very. I feel like that showed her age a lot. And just the. Like, I don't know. It felt like him. Her being clearly upset about, like, the moving to Dallas, changing her life, being like, oh, I never thought I would, like, change life for a man. You know, whatever. I always told myself that Derek being like, you know, I just, like, give me a hug, you know, like, it's okay. Like, we're gonna figure it out. And her just being like, no, I actually don't want to be near you at all. Like. And he's like, I just want peace at the end of this. And she's like, peace. Really?

[Joe]

Good luck in that moment. Kind of reminded him of, like, with the conversation Mary, we had, you know, going into your birthday, it's like, you. You in your early 20s, you have, like your. I had these promises, and I was going to do this, and I pro. I'm. I would never do this for a man or a woman or whatever. Derek is, you know, has two kids. He's 20 years older, and he's like, yeah, I. I've been there, but I've learned to. Not to. To be adaptable, to row with the punches. Like, I've. I've. I've been down bad a couple times, and I've. I've worked through it. And in that conversation, you can tell that, like, they're. They are coming from very different perspectives about, like, how to just how to interpret their fears and concerns. And she. It's. Pfeiffer reads like she hasn't really dealt with some of these heavier moments in life. And you keep hearing her talk about past relationships and these bad boyfriends and what seems to be working for her. And Derek is like. Everything we know about Derek so far is he seems like a really standup guy guy. You know, he treats his partner with respect and he's. He listens and he tries to be calming, but she's not Used to that. And she feel. She can tell it's healthy like this. This. The connection and how he handles himself. But they are still figuring out do their lives still work together, you know, is she.

[Natalie]

Like, I relate so much to her fear. You know, obviously, like, I moved here for Nick. I had no friends here. I had only been to LA one time before this. Like, I had a life. I had a job, I had my own apartment. Like, I was doing just fine in Georgia. And so then for Nick to be like, oh, well, I just bought this house, move out here, move in with me. I was like, okay. But I definitely wasn't like, oh, I always told myself that I wouldn't do this, or I like my friends. I'm gonna just, like, be so, like, putting all my eggs into this one basket. It's like, at some point in your life, you do have to, like, make that leap and take a chance and, like, see what happens. And maybe you move back to Seattle. Maybe. You know, like, I kept my apartment in Georgia till my lease was done because I was like, maybe this won't work out. Yeah, you know, I don't know.

[Joe]

And we joke about this all the time, but, like, Natalie has opened up about when she moved to New York as, you know, as a teenager and. Which is crazy, and blah, blah, blah. But we probably don't work out if that doesn't happen, because Nally had that experience as a baseline of, like, I'm gonna move this new city and not know anyone, and I'm gonna figure it out, and I'll. I'll probably meet some friends. When I was that age, I was more like Pfeiffer, where my friends were my whole life. Where, you know, a lot of times you're just like, why. Why would you ask your best friend Eric of whether you should move? Like, they're not. They're not gonna be in your rel. You know, but, like, they're so important at that stage in your life for a lot of people. But, yeah, I mean, at 22, like, my friends were my whole life, and their opinions were everything. And I definitely needed their approval. And so I wouldn't have been in the position that Natalie is in at that stage of her life, having done very different things, you know, that I did. And so that's. We worked out because we didn't have similar childhoods and we had. We live somewhat similar experiences at different stages in our. In our life. And I think know you. You're seeing with Derek and Pfeiffer, the more they talk, there's a clear connection. There's clear chemistry, there's a lot that works, but we're also seeing a lot that might not.

[Nick]

Yeah, it seems like she's stepping into that era that he's experienced before. Like she hasn't had the experience, but

[Natalie]

this is the catalyst.

[Nick]

This is the thing that's gonna help her grow. And if she moves, you know.

[Natalie]

Yeah. Well, we do have John and Jorge

[Joe]

with us to unpack their experiences. We get into more of the drama between Jorge and Vanill. We his side of the story. And who knows, we might get both sides of the story at some point later in the future. All right, well, up next, Jorge and John.

[Natalie]

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[Joe]

You know how chlorophyll is responsible for how plants harness the power of the sun. Now you can enjoy a gentle but powerful daily detox with chlorophyll's stick packs from nature's sunshine. They are a convenient on the go way to support your gut health with a gentle daily detox to help your body feel light and balanced. It's easy to mix and a simple way to incorporate a daily detox to feel lighter, more energized and more regular. Plus it comes in refreshing flavors like lime, apple, apple and melon. Personally, my favorite is the lime. Again, it's one of the many things I am using to make sure I am living my best life and feeling like my best self. And your gut health is incredibly important to your overall wellness. Honestly, I have been loving how much better I feel after adding Nature Sunshine chlorophyll stick packs to my routine. It's a gentle daily detox. No crazy cleanse or gimmicks, just real plant powered support to help you feel like lighter, more energized inside and out. They freshen from the inside out. It aids detox in digestion and provides antioxidant support. So get yourself some nature sunshine and get yourself some daily detox that you know your body needs. With over 16, 000 five star reviews, you know it's incredible. Get a daily detox with chlorophyll stick packs. Nature Sunshine is offering 20 off your first order plus free shipping. Go to naturesunshine.com and use code V I A L L at check. Check out again. That's naturesunshine.com with code V I A L [e-mail] John. Jorge, welcome.

[Jorge]

Hey, thanks for having us.

[Joe]

Good to see you guys.

[John]

Good to see you again.

[Joe]

A minute.

[John]

Yeah, it's been a long time.

[Natalie]

It's been a long time.

[John]

Well, for me longer.

[Joe]

But yeah, we started all these the same way. But I'm always just curious with this show and why did you guys say yes to age of attraction? Yeah. And just like what was the draw?

[Jorge]

So we, I talked about this with him the other day and he started cracking up. My grandmother lives on a small farm in Iowa, so Midwest connection and I was thinking of the the story she has as a 93 year old on a farm in Iowa and I live in a big city in Miami and I got this opportunity and I was thinking what experiences did she have versus what experience can I make? And I was like it's a no brainer for me.

[John]

It was. I think Netflix did an amazing job because they chose y' all as the host post and your story is picture perfect. And then with me, I mean I'm like the poster child for age attraction because I'm, you know, my age and

[Jorge]

then actually I'm the poster child.

[John]

No, you're. You're a poster child, but not for them. But. But the. The actual thing is, I've always believed, you know, like, age is not a factor. And then I would say the last 10 years, there's been plenty of times where you ask my age. I'm like, how old do I look? And then just go off that. Because I don't want to get into that. Because. Because eventually, immediately, certain thoughts come to mind and it breaks the connection. And I always was like, if the connection is real, then the connection's real. And then let's see where it goes from there. So the Age of attraction. The draw for me was to see if what I thought was accurate and see whether or not it's true. Like an experiment. And I came out emboldened in what I thought.

[Joe]

John, we obviously a lot of people have been very fascinated with your and Teresa's relationship. And I think going into the show, you know, listen, like the Jorge of the world, we've seen that before. We've seen older men date younger women. And, you know, that's certainly part of the show we wanted to explore. But society in the world has been more resistant and has some double standards when it comes seeing older women dating younger men. It was cool to see you and Teresa represent that type of relationship we don't get to see. But coming into this experience, had you had a lot of experience when it comes to dating women older than you, or was this something?

[Jorge]

No, I have, funny enough, I had a. We were talking. It wasn't anything official. The day I got cast, the girl I was talking to broke up with me because I was too young and I missed the first call from production. I was in the elevator, got down. Production called me, and about 60 minutes before that, said lady called me and said, hey, what's up with you? It wasn't. I was debating going on the show. Cause I liked her. I called my sister. I was like, what do I do? And my sister like, go. You have to explore this. And she made the decision for me. So, yeah, I have dated older women. It's not something I seek out. I think I thank my parents for my upbringing and just how I was raised. I think having an older sister has definitely helped me date. She's taught me a lot, and we're really close, so it's not something I look out for, but it's done it before.

[Joe]

What was it about Srisa that drew you to her?

[Jorge]

Well, I say this all the time. Her, the belt she Was wearing just caught my attention. That was like the first thing we talked about. And I loved her style. I'm in fashion. She's in fashion.

[John]

You wanted to wear a belt. Okay.

[Natalie]

He was like, I'm gonna link up with this girl, cuz I want to borrow that.

[John]

Can I use your belt? Can I wear that belt? Cuz I think it looks really good with my shoes. I hope they got with my shoes

[Jorge]

because I'm talking about that.

[John]

I want the belt.

[Jorge]

It was just easy. It was just easy. It was as weird. And you, you brought me it to the side at the beginning and said, you're going to get used to these cameras pretty quick. And I appreciate you for that. I thought, this guy's lying. There's no way. But like, dating in an experience like that is so surreal. And having her and just having it flow so easily made it feel like, whoa, if we can do this here, like, we can probably do this outside. And it was just easy.

[Natalie]

Jorge, we had a little bit of a moment where in the Promise Room you were asked a question.

[John]

Oh, I can't wait. I'm glad you asked. Ask this question. Oh, I can't wait.

[Joe]

We did get to see this in real time.

[John]

Okay. But I can't wait for you to give you the story to it. Go ahead. Go ahead and ask the question.

[Natalie]

Well, it might not be what you think it is.

[John]

Okay. Well, that's true.

[Natalie]

You're asked a question. Do you have kids? Do you want kids? And your response to that was, so you want to. I'm open to having kids.

[John]

Right.

[Joe]

You kind of. You punted on the first question.

[John]

And you know why? Because I was like, you want to play games? So I wanted to tell her on her third date. Okay. And I was going to. And they were like, no, no, no, do that. I'm like, no, I want to tell her my. You know, I'm telling her I have nothing else.

[Joe]

Hi.

[John]

No, no, no. Then tell her now. I don't like you manipulating my conversation. So then I was like, okay, if y' all want to play that, I can answer questions. So when she asked it, I just answered, yeah, you want kids? We can have kids. I'm interested in having. I would have interested to have kids. So, yes. Was it slick?

[Joe]

Yes. Okay.

[John]

Was I worried about my kids? No. Was I embarrassed about talking about my kids? Absolutely not. It's something that I would have told her on the first day. I have no qualms about. I just don't like being. The interesting part about reality TV is sometimes Things are made awkward when they don't need to be. And so I don't feel like it was. It was an organic. Was pushed and I didn't like that, so I bucked against it. Now, of course I know it's going to look like, oh, Jorge just lied about his kids, but I mean, if,

[Joe]

I mean, you guys see, you guys worked through it pretty well and it wasn't that big of a deal, but I guess if nothing else, totally get where you're coming from. Reality TV does push for those moments, but so does, you could argue, so does life. And I think, you know, in reality tv, what it does a good, It's a pressure cooker, right? And it accelerates time and it puts people in kind of these forced situations to bring out things that would otherwise take four months for a couple to kind of get to that moment. True, right. But from Vanel's standpoint, it just kind of came across as almost slick. Or just you avoiding her question. Because even if that question, maybe she got prompted or why it, why it happened in that moment versus the third one. Like at one point she was like, he does not have kids. Like, she's out there telling her girls and then you're like, I gotta tell her about my kids. You know, like it created this moment where you clearly weren't on the same page. And she had thought. She asked you and thought she had received a different answer.

[John]

I know. And you know what the interesting part about it is? As we had conversations further, she was like, I don't even know if I to want, want kids. Like, she told me, I don't even know if I want kids. Like, it's not something that is the most important thing to me. And I told her, look, so I tend to be a little bit. I will kick against the pricks if you try to make me to do something. And especially if I think that you're doing it to benefit, you know, okay, let's, let's have some drama. So I'm like, no, I wanted to tell her on the third date and you said no. So no. Why now you want me to come in here and be like, hey, I'm 90 and I got four kids? Nah. I'm like, nah, it's gonna be on my dime, on my time. Now, could that have looked disingenuous? It could have and I understand how it can be perceived. And if that would have been something that my kids would have been something that would have made her say no, then I really feel bad about it because that's not what I want to do. What I really wanted to do was I want to tell you on my time. Like, for instance, when you say, said how reality TV speeds everything up. Right. Well, one of the things I do if I'm dating is I'll tell you right off. I don't have a problem saying, hey, yeah, I have two kids. It is what it is, and you either take it or you don't. And I'm okay with that. That's not something that bothers me. Now, my age, you determining not whether or not you want to date me because of my age Now, Yeah, that bothered. That bothered me a little bit. But now the jig is up.

[Joe]

We all know.

[John]

Everybody in the world knows. So, yeah, I don't have that problem anymore. So, look, I feel like the Age of Attraction did be me a good favor because, hey, there, you know, everybody knows. There's no more guessing. Everybody knows. But, yeah, I hated that. I hated the way that went down. I hated it. I really did.

[Joe]

Another big disconnect that you and Vanille had was the conversation around celibacy. It was a very fascinating conversation. Obviously, I'm sure you agree that, you know, when people are talking about their boundaries in the bedroom, we all need to respect those boundaries.

[John]

That was a.

[Joe]

You introduced the conversation. I think the word you used a couple times was confused. You felt confused by what? And I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I want you to give me your point of view, but it seemed like you. And you said you felt confused by what you thought, the expectations that she set, and then what ended up happening when you guys got alone. So could you add some context to. You know, we certainly got to hear some things. Things.

[Nick]

Definitely got to hear some things.

[Joe]

The phrase oral intimacy was. Was used.

[John]

Yeah.

[Joe]

But I would just love to hear just how you interpreted that whole situation.

[John]

So when she raised the issue of celibacy in the Promise Room, if we were in a date, if we were in a regular dating situation, I'd be like, I ain't got to do that. But because of the Age of Attraction and the whole thing about the Age of Attraction is try something different. So I said, okay, I'm not gonna. First of all, I don't want any woman that I'm dating to feel like she can't say something to me or tell me how she feels. So I was like, I'm open to talk to it. So then immediately when we said that, my viewpoint going to Vancouver was, we're not doing nothing. Like, we're just gonna be hanging. And. Okay, this is a different reality for me. So now I'm living with the world.

[Joe]

We're doing a lot of talking, right?

[John]

I'm gonna do a lot of talking, right? I mean, we're gonna be one thing we gonna be is really good friends. Cause we're gonna do a hell of a lot of talking. Ain't. Ain't shit else going on.

[Joe]

Me.

[John]

Meanwhile, you know, these guys are like, oh, so.

[Joe]

But.

[John]

So I'm like, okay, that's cool. And I have no problem with that. I can control myself. So when we. Even when we went into the bedroom, I was like, you know, you're on your side, I'm on my side. But one thing I want to make sure. I'm never gonna disparage Vanel or her choice to want to be celibate. But it's like one of my mentors once said to me, is to give good advice and set bad examples is quite confusing. So what's confusing to me is if you're on that tip, we don't do nothing. There's no touching. There's no nothing. But when the lights went off that. I mean, it was confusing. And I don't want to make it seem. The one thing I'll say is this. I didn't initiate anything. Like, I did not, because I respect her boundaries. Right?

[Joe]

And I respect you. Like, you're gonna pull Logan and just be like, all right, good night.

[John]

So, hey, listen, I'm like, I respect, but, you know, I. And so here's the thing. What I started to come to understand was, okay, you're struggling with celibacy. Like, that's something that you want, but maybe you're not. You weren't expecting it to be, you know, where we're at right now, that's where I start. So for me, I felt like the issue should have been, okay, I'm struggling with this. Maybe we should just. Can you help me to. But not, like, convicting me based on, you know what. So I'm confused. When we go in the bedroom, we're doing different things.

[Joe]

Did you feel like she didn't give you the space to ask for clarity or to have the conversation around what celibacy meant to her? Is that what you're trying to say?

[John]

I think so. I think that the conversation. I think you put it accurately. I think the conversation should have been, explain to me what celibacy is with. Because if celibacy to you is, you

[Natalie]

know, everything but sex.

[John]

Everything but sex, well, then, okay, I respect that. That's not what I got celibacy to. When you say celibacy to me, there's nothing.

[Jorge]

Right.

[John]

Yeah.

[Joe]

I mean. Well, I mean. And Vanilla is very open about her faith, and I feel like celibacy comes from that.

[John]

Yes. As a preacher's kid, celibacy means nothing. I mean, I grew up in the church. Celibacy is absolutely nothing. So that's why I think, in retrospect, the conversation should have been, what is celibacy to you? Like, what is it? Because if celibacy to her is everything but sex, well, then she was right on time. And I understand that. But if celibacy is nothing now, it's confusing, you know, and one of the things that I don't wanna do is, like, I think Vanel's an amazing person. I'm standing on that. And I think that with Vanel, it became. It was like night and day. Because in the bedroom, it's one thing, but then when we're talking, it's like, what do you think about my celibacy? What do you want My. And so it's like you kind of put me in a position where I don't. I'm confused. And that's why I felt.

[Joe]

It almost seemed like when you brought it up at all for maybe clarity purposes, that she almost received it as you almost kind of challenging her. Her vow of celibacy is almost like an. In fairness to her, she had opened up and expressed that, like, other men seem to have not wanted to accept this. And, you know, I wonder if that's how she received it.

[John]

I think that's. That. That's. That's directly. You're right. Directly, correct. I think. Well, one of the things that Vanella and I had a conversation is she's like, I don't do conflict well. And I said, well, I do conflict extremely well. My job is conflict. I said, and I don't believe you run from conflict. I believe you run to it. Because if you communicate, anything can be solved. I was like, listen, any relationship, it all comes down to communication.

[Jorge]

What'd you say last night about communication?

[John]

I said, in any relationship that you have, if you have proper communication, nothing can be. There's no relationship that can't. That can't make it the problem. And I forgot the exact quote. But the problem with relationships is if you and I are on the same team and you think that I said something disrespectful or whatever, like, in general relationships, if we're on the same team, you know, if, you know Me, you know, I'm never trying to hurt you. So then that means there's a communication issue. So to me, what should be incumbent upon the two people is. So what did you mean by that? Cause I know that you would never purposely hurt me. And then I think you get resolution. So with Vanilla, I was always like, well, we could talk about it. But I think Vanill. One of the things, like, she said she didn't do conflict well. It was like an affront to her. Like, I'm coming after her celibacy, which I wasn't. Like, I just want clarity. Like, give me. If you say, okay, this is what we can do, cool. Cause I was cool with two weeks to talk. That's fine, if that's what it's gonna be. I'm not. I can restrain myself very well. It's not that serious to me. But I think that it was the bedroom, and outside the bedroom. I was in two different worlds. And I think, like you said, I think that she took it as me. Me challenging her. Her celibacy. And I wasn't. I wasn't. I had no problem with it.

[Natalie]

John, going into meeting Teresa's kids, that was obviously a very emotional thing for Theresa. We saw when we dropped the bomb on you guys, that she was. You did miss that part.

[John]

I know. I heard.

[Natalie]

Did you know that she was not going to tell them your age? Had y' all talked about that?

[Jorge]

Not really. I genuinely didn't care. I feel like it was hers and I's relationship. Obviously, her kids are a massive part of the relationship. I thought of my parents, my sister, my friend group, my circle, and how supportive they are and still are. And as the show's getting to air, they're still supportive. I thought, oh, my circle wouldn't care how old she is, so why would her circle care how old I am? So I thought, if she doesn't want to tell him, it's not a big deal to me. And that's just the truth. It's her and I's relationship. You know, if we were gonna make this work, I think her connection with the kids, the kids would see our connection and be like, all right, whatever. It. How old? However old this guy is, like, you know, my mom's happy. And that's. That's really what it comes down to.

[Joe]

I'm assuming, though, like, you. You know, because Teresa, throughout the journey, referenced the. The clear double standard that there is when it comes to the age differences between men and women. Was it easier for you to be her support system in that or how did you find the balance between validating her justifiable insecurities and at the same time trying to also encourage her and support her to get out of her head, enjoy what you two had and things like that? How did you strike that balance?

[Jorge]

That was tough because I think I was heroic throughout the whole thing. And I don't think I really showed that I needed some support too. Yeah, like her. Not really. And the age thing was fine. Like her. I didn't. I didn't. That wasn't a check. Oh, she needs to tell the kids how old I am to make this real. But I think I was. And I gladly so. But I was supporting her. She had a lot more. She was a lot more emotional than I was. And I think me supporting her towards the end kind of weighed on me, actually. That might not show, but I felt like I was supporting her a lot. And then when I would give a little bit, it would be like overshadowed. Like you have less to lose. You know, my kids are here. You don't have kids. And I told her the whole time, I can't relate to your past. I can't relate to xyz. You know, she's been through some shit and I feel for her. I do. I can't relate to it. I've never experienced what she's experienced, but I can hear her out. And I think I started hearing her out, started hearing her out, started hearing her out. And then I lacked. All right, I need some support too.

[Joe]

There was an interesting moment. Do you remember when you met her kids and afterwards you gave an interview and you talked about you feeling a little frustrated that she wasn't as expressive as you wanted her to be about your 2 connection. Do you remember that?

[Jorge]

Well, I think if we're just being real, I think she was just excited to see them. And I think it was more, I think that overshadowed. Oh, John's here. Let's talk about John.

[Joe]

Well, what's interesting, you haven't seen this yet.

[Jorge]

No, I don't really want to know anything.

[Joe]

Right after you left, the first words out of her kids mouth was them just being like. Like it's obvious how much you like John.

[Jorge]

Okay, good.

[Joe]

So I'm just curious after, you know, you feeling this one thing and the thing that you wanted was like, almost like her kids to see that connection. You didn't feel like Teresa did that, but clearly her kids saw what you wanted them to see. I'm just curious what you think about that.

[Jorge]

And I think the whole time I saw, I Don't have kids. You know, I don't know if I want kids. And we talked about that. That. I don't know if I'll ever have that connection that she has with her kids. So I can't relate to that. I can relate to what I've experienced with my mom and my sister and our relationship with my parents, but I think that she was just so focused on seeing them, and I saw how important they were to her that I wanted. I guess I wanted that validation because she just talked about it nonstop. And then when she. When you guys dropped the bomb that they were coming, I saw how much of a wreck she was. And I remember the next, like, four or five days, it was not good between us. She was just like. It was so maternal that she was like, where are they? Where are they? Like, it was. It was like pure science, almost like her, like, where are they? Are they safe? Like, I know they're around. I was like, holy. So the next couple days after you guys dropped that bomb, it was. It was rough. Sorry. Okay.

[Natalie]

Sorry about that.

[Joe]

That she's doing her job, you know?

[John]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe]

Y' all dropping bombs.

[John]

Hey, how about that?

[Natalie]

You and Vanel's breakup, do you think it was because of the disconnect around the situation that happened out on the streets of Vancouver where the man approached the two of you?

[John]

Do I think that was the reason?

[Natalie]

Correct?

[John]

I think it was part of it. I think it was a culmination. Honestly, I did not even expect for the breakup to happen. I feel like, once again, communication is the most important thing to me. I realized Vanel, I mean, you saw the breakup. She's running off, coming back to me. Just sit there and talk about it. We're too mature adults. We could talk about it. I felt that she felt some kind of way about, you know, we had the celibacy argument, whether, you know, and our little confusion there. And I think that the. The incident on the street, I was. I stand 10 toes down on that. You know, there's no. There's no wiggle room for me. If I'm in a situation and someone presents a danger to a woman that's around me, it's not. There's no questions of how I'm gonna react to it. No questions. And I think that we even talk about it. She's never been in that conversation kind of situation before. And so I think she wanted. In my estimation, I told her, you can't dictate how I'm going to protect a woman in my life. That's just not gonna happen. And I'm gonna always do that. So because of that, you know, it looks like that's the culmination. That's the final blow. And I think it was a culmination. And honestly, if I look at the breakup, I think the breakup is. We lack communication ability. If we can't talk about that, that. I mean, a situation when in Vancouver and celibacy, then it's. There's no way.

[Natalie]

Do you feel like that was an age thing or do you think that just compatibility, personality thing.

[John]

That's completely. Personality has nothing to do with age. I've dated, you know, and I'm not gonna even. You know, I've. I've dated one time someone younger than Vanilla, and it was not even. It's. It's. To me, that's an individual, you know, basis. An individual person that this is. I mean, Vanel went in and honestly, she said, I'm not good with conflict. That's not gonna be good because you're gonna face conflict now. Someone with a different personality that's probably a little bit more laid back and not as gonna call you on it. You could. That can probably go over. And we talked about that. She said she's used to. She told me she spoiled. She's used to getting her way. And I said, well, that's cool, but if I see something that's not correct, I'm gonna call you on it. I'm not gonna let it go.

[Joe]

Those two moments, her saying admitting to you that she's used to eating her way and acknowledging to you that she's not used to or comfortable with conflict. Looking back, do you feel like those two things specifically spoke to why you two aren't that compatible?

[John]

Yes. And. Well, there were other things that came up in our conversations that if I'm out in the world, I'm like, nah. Like, I'm very heavy into black history. Very heavy. And Vanilla was like, who's Morris Chestnut? Like, who? So we. I was like, you don't know any of those things. So then initially I was like, ooh. But then I caught myself because there was a lot of things about Vanille that I really liked. Like, we had some good connection. There was. I was. The weird thing is I've never been so protective of someone so quick. And that's what I felt for her. Felt very protective of her. And so there would be things that were. That doesn't. We're not compatible there. But once again, I go back to like, well, we can talk about it. And then you know, if at the end of the day we talk and we have good conversations about it and we just are diametrically opposing and that's cool. But. But I mean, I didn't think that any of it. We didn't really talk about it. I mean, you have a guy. We're in Vancouver, and a guy's standing behind her with a skateboard. Like, literally behind, like, right behind her, and he's talking crazy. There's no way I'm gonna let you stand behind her. Like, there's no way. And so when I told her, I said, go in front of me. And I told him very simply, you can either move or I'm gonna move you. I'm gonna take care of it. I'm not gonna have that problem. There's not gonna be. I'm not gonna sit there and talk with you because he's not. He wasn't rational in dealing with that. So to me, you. She got upset about me. Like, she's thinking that, well, I think you overreacted. Well, so you want me to just let him. Like, what do you want me to do? So that's not going to work. That, that won't work. But do I think that should break you up? I think that's a talking thing. And you go, okay, let's get understanding. And how I know that is because after when Vanilla we got back, back, she. She admitted that to me. She called me and she was like, look, you know, I talked to my, My. My best friend and my mother, and I was wrong. I should have. You know, you were just trying to defend me. So to me, like, that's why you don't. I don't have knee jerk reactions. Let's just talk.

[Joe]

Listen. I mean, you, you like. Yeah, I mean, like, you, you were. You are clearly a great communicator, but also as a defense attorney, you. You do bring a very strong energy.

[John]

Yes.

[Joe]

You know?

[John]

Yes.

[Joe]

And there was a moment when you and Vanel broke up where she said, Said, I don't know if you heard this or if she's just talking to the camera, but she talked. She says that you talked at her, not to her. And I'm wondering, you know, throughout your life. And listen, I like to talk. I can bring a strong energy, but that's feedback over the years I've received at times. And I wonder if, if you've ever received that feedback where despite you still being a good communicator, realizing that, like, talk how. How you talk to your girl versus, like, how you talk to like other people, you've. There's been some like blurred line, so to speak. And is that feedback you've gotten in

[John]

the past a thousand percent? Absolutely. And I will receive it every day, ten times a week. I mean there's definitely times I'm very, I have a, I'm very strong opinion, very strong willed, and it's all black and white for me. There are times when you have to pump the brakes. And to me, if that happens and you say that to me, listen, I think you're feeling like you're talking, I then immediately I pump the brakes. Because when I'm with a woman, I'm gonna always respect if that's the way she's receiving it, that I don't care what I think if that's the way she's receiving it, that's just the way she's receiving it. And that means I need to change my approach. Now she never said that to me, but one of the things with Vanel was, and I don't know what it looks like on the camera cause I haven't seen it, but there would be times where she would talk and I would listen. And then when I go to talk, she's interrupted and I'm like, just you talk. I'll listen to everything you have to say and then let me respond to it. And I'm big on. If you keep interrupting me, then okay, you're not even respecting, you're not, you're not even listening to what I'm saying. Because to me, in order for me to hear you, I have to listen to everything you say and then resonate on it for a second, not be planning what I'm going to say back to you. Because that's not good communication. But to your point, Joe, how do

[Joe]

you already have an answer? I just got time.

[John]

Right, right. Like you're waiting, like, okay, I've had times where people like, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. Cause I got something to say. Well then how can you be listening to what I'm saying? Like that's impossible. And so I kind of felt that with her and then, you know, times when she just ran off. But to the vanilla's defense, once again, I think the world of vanilla, I think she's a great person. I think our communication styles are definitely different. If she felt like I was talking at her, please tell me that. And if that is the case, then I need to change. Change it because it's not acceptable if, if that's what she feels. It's feelings are 100% it doesn't matter if I'm saying, no, that's not what's happening. That's the way she felt. And they're 100%. And if that was the case, then I would have said, okay, well, let me pump the brakes and let me try to address it in a different way, because she's not going to take

[Jorge]

any of that in anyway.

[John]

No, not at all. So, yes. So in response to your question, I have heard it before. And when it has been said to me before, then I back up and say, okay, let me try this different.

[Nick]

John.

[Natalie]

When we came to the rooftop and told y' all that Jorge and Vanill had ended their relationship, how shocked were you?

[Jorge]

We had a meeting. We had a. We all got together, like, the night before, two nights before, and the vibes were off. And we all got together and Vanille was separated. Jorge was over here, and we all noticed it where, like, the vibes are off Vanille's. And I haven't gotten the chance to meet Vanille, really talk to him, her. But you could tell she was very isolated. Jorge was even his, you see, his attitude, his Persona. He was even quiet. So we knew something was up.

[John]

What had happened was that was the first day she came out and she asked, Said something about celibacy. And I was like. When she raised it, I said, I don't know. She's like, how do you feel about my celibacy? I said, I don't know. And she's like, that's not acceptable. And I was like, well, we're in a state of I don't know, right? We don't know if we want to be in a relationship. We don't know. So I don't know. Because what I was really saying is, I'm confused, right? Like, what does it mean? And she did not like that. And so one of the things that I'm big on is any problems that we have, we keep it in house, right? But she got a little upset, went upstairs by herself without me. So when I came up, she's already up there. And I'm like, I'm not gonna get into no beef with you, because this is not worth it. So, you know, then we come back downstairs, and everything was cool, you know, then we went on our date, which was. It was really odd because I think to her credit, her snapback is good. Like, in the sense of, you know, okay, that happened. Okay, let's move on. Cause then we go on a date and everything be great. And I'm thinking, oh, we're Good. And then it's like, but what do you think about this? And I'm like, is that a good

[Jorge]

sign or a bad sign?

[John]

I mean, it can be very good. Because if some people linger and hold grudges, that's not good. And if you can snap back and say, hey, look, I'm not gonna linger on that stuff, that's good. That's really good.

[Natalie]

And then circle back when you're a little bit more clear headed and be like, let's have more of a conversation.

[John]

And one thing is that I want to make it clear I'm never going to be on, you know, vilify Vanille. That's not going to happen. Like, I thank the world of her. I think she's a beautiful woman. I think that we had some really dope chemistry and some really dope moments. I think that the breakdown in our relationship was communication, that we did not communicate well. And when you don't communicate well, I don't care what relationship or what friendship you have, it will not stand.

[Joe]

Well, I appreciate you guys coming on. It's great catching up with you guys. It's really a pleasure to have you guys back here. And we said this to everyone already, but thanks for being part of this journey with us. I think this was. I really enjoyed making the show with you guys and it's really been fun to see, like, good quality people work through these complicated relationship dynamics that I think represent dating culture in a very realistic way. Way. Yeah. Through the lens of age differences. But it's been a lot of fun having you guys on the show. And certainly, Jorge, wishing you the best of luck on your love journey. And John, I'm very excited to see how things play out with you and Teresa and thank you.

[John]

I think my love journey is going to be me and my dog. I don't need to. I don't want to argue.

[Joe]

Well, I will say it was very, very different stories from Jorge and Vanille regarding the street incident.

[Nick]

Yes.

[Joe]

Just to recap, Vanille was like, this guy was probably 100 yards away and he was running his mouth. But I felt like, Jorge, my man, do I want him to protect me? Sure. Do I want him to fuse a situation? Sure. But I felt like he could have diffused that situation a little differently. And Vanel made it seem like Jorge, instead of helping the situation, kind of made it worse before he made it better.

[John]

Better.

[Joe]

Jorge, according to his story, that guy was two feet away with that skateboard in his hand ready to go, and urgency was required.

[Mary]

Here's the Thing as a woman, if someone was actually like making me uncomfortable, I would remember that and be honest about that. So it's like, I don't know why Vanel would say he, this guy was like farther away if he wasn't, you

[Joe]

know, I don't know. I, I'm.

[Mary]

Anyway, that's all I will say.

[Joe]

I mean, it is a really interesting thing, you know, Like, I feel like every once in a while I feel like, you know, you want to know your man can protect you, you know, like, it's just like, can you beat him up if I wanted you to? You know, type of energy. And I also think, but in, in real life, in real situations, very much like Van Al, it's like, like I don't need you to make a bad situation worse by like puffing your chest and, and giving me this.

[Natalie]

It's a turn off.

[Joe]

You're a tough guy, you know, And I, and I think that's sometimes a fine line between like, do you want me to beat the shot of them? Or like, do you need. What do you need from me right now? But I do think a lot of times guys will act out in a way that they think their woman wants and yet they're like, you, you made that way worse than it needed to be.

[Nick]

Or they act out in a way that their boys in the past would have appreciated or supported or egged on where it's like, as a woman, it's like, don't make me feel extra unsafe because now I have to be worried about your well being as well as mine.

[Natalie]

Well said.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Joe]

All right, let's finish things off with a little summer house.

[Natalie]

A little summer house. Apparently their mid season trailer just dropped.

[Nick]

It looks insane.

[Mary]

I loved this episode.

[Joe]

I felt like it was just more of the same.

[Mary]

Well, yeah, but I love Summer House.

[Nick]

Same.

[Mary]

I love more of the same. Give me these people hanging out in

[Nick]

that house and a group of act like giddy teenagers while playing Spin the bottle Truth Dare Edition.

[Mary]

I'm sorry, West Wills. I had like, sometimes the show is too much.

[Nick]

Sometimes it's a little too like parallel lifestyle. Like where it's just like maybe like I've met like I've been both. I've been west and I've been Sierra. Like where it's just like.

[Mary]

And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what's worse. I don't know which person I would

[Natalie]

rather not be right now. Do you think KJ told Dara about kissing Sierra?

[Nick]

No. We'll see. I Think it's coming up because I think.

[Mary]

I don't think it was that. I don't know.

[Natalie]

You wouldn't want. I mean, tell us.

[Mary]

I mean, tell her. Obviously she's gonna see, but, like, yeah, I think you should tell her because it seemed not to be, like, a thing.

[Nick]

I was like, Sierra's a little bit more passionate with Bailey than she was.

[Mary]

Yeah, I was like, Sierra and Bailey's makeup was hotter than Sierra and KJ's.

[Natalie]

All right, let's watch this trip trailer. That was good.

[Joe]

That does look good.

[Nick]

Looks really good.

[Natalie]

Doesn't that look awesome?

[Joe]

A couple things that stood out to me when Wes is like, I'm just worried about Sierra getting her heart broken. If you are in Sierra's camp and you're her friends, like, that should be all you need to hear to I'm over.

[Natalie]

It's not serious. Yeah, no.

[Joe]

You know, the fact that he is in no way worried about his feelings being heartbroken.

[Nick]

Is this, like, the way he's saying it is if it's not his, like, responsibility? Like, you know what I mean, where it's like, oh, I just don't want her heart to get broken. Okay, then don't do something or have a conversation that sets expectations as to where you guys are at.

[Joe]

And. And again, this is obviously just a tease and we're probably missing context, but we have heard west refer this in the past, which is like, he's always referring to the sexual tension, but he

[Nick]

also called her the love of his life in the beginning of the season. So it's just kind of like you're the one that's putting the shit out here. Mixed signals, being like, oh, I miss so much. I'm gonna cry to all my castmates, not say anything to her.

[Joe]

But maybe west saying she's a love of her life is coming from a place of a guy who's never really been in love.

[Nick]

Had a real serious.

[Joe]

Maybe he's comparing it to. I don't know what he's comparing it to, but I think that context is probably important for Ciara to consider.

[Mary]

My read on the west situation is like, I don't know. It's. I don't trust him, and maybe I'm. I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt. But I think maybe there's a part of him that really, when he's saying he doesn't want Sierra to get his. Get her heart broken, it's because he knows he doesn't trust himself and he doesn't want to, like, do it again and doesn't want to like fuck and maybe.

[Nick]

But.

[Mary]

And I'm not saying that's a. I'm not like saying that means it's okay or anything.

[Nick]

You're just denying any responsibility that west has in his own actions.

[Mary]

He's no, he that does have responsibility.

[Joe]

And he's not 18. Yeah, like 30.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah, like that's what I'm saying. It's like, oh, I just don't want that to happen. What?

[Mary]

I mean, it's like I understand where he's coming from, but he like. I think I have the tendency to like be more empathetic towards him when in real. I didn't watch the season where he over Sierra.

[Nick]

Oh, you should do that.

[Joe]

So what's really tough to watch that moment and the episode where Sierra is just like. And then this shit's gonna get aired and that's gonna be a whole nother thing and it's exhausting. I just, I felt for her in that moment so much because my guess is they're making and on some level both Sierra and West are leaning in to this chemistry that they clearly have. That is a real thing.

[Jorge]

Right.

[Joe]

But two things can be true at the same time. Where for west it is he's leaning in but also like knows that he like his heart is not like as fragile about this. He feels in control when it comes to the chemistry he feels with Ciara. And then you have Ciara who's like, I've moved on and I know it's probably not healthy for me but I'll lean in. But like these things, like I really got up in this relationship, this really hurt me. And regardless of who right and who's wrong, this took a lot for me to move forward and now she's like making, you know, and it's just like it kind of real and kind of like leaning in, but it's so fucking messy. But she also knows that no matter what, when this gets aired, we're gonna have people are gonna talk about it and shows like, you know, we'll have commentary and like, you know, so people will clip it and DM her and say me, you'd be so stupid.

[Mary]

I mean, Sierra, she's got her. She posted a TikTok of her on the Oscars red carpet with her taking her with like the glitter, the glammed out Prozac bottle, which like I want now, but it's just like, I don't know, it just makes me think of like the way that how much more intense this Wes and Sierra relationship is because of the extraneous fact that actors much more less so than the actual dynamic. The actual dynamic between the two of them is very simple. They're both kind of into each other and they just have to decide, like, if it's worth it or not. Right.

[Joe]

But then it's because of these friends. I mean, yeah, I had a girlfriend once before.

[Nick]

No, you didn't.

[John]

What the.

[Joe]

But when one of my girlfriends that I had long in a different lifetime that maybe wasn't. I don't even remember. I barely remember.

[Nick]

Back when you were a sailor in 17th century, anyone?

[John]

Yeah.

[Joe]

And like in my past life, we broke up, but we had all these mutual friends. We all hung out in the same group. You know, we. A month after we broke up, we went to our best friend's wedding that we both were standing up in. And. And it's like, hot girl, been there, you know?

[Natalie]

What'd you do?

[Nick]

Back slide?

[Joe]

Nothing.

[Nick]

Nothing. Okay.

[Natalie]

The conversation between Kyle and Amanda where he's like, I'm getting a manager. And she's like, so this is like a long term thing.

[Mary]

So you're like a dj.

[Joe]

If there was a moment where Amanda was like this, we're done.

[Nick]

We're done.

[Joe]

That had to have been it.

[Natalie]

Had to have been it.

[Nick]

I could just see that little smirk on her face. I was gonna say she said it with a smile. I was like, I'm scared.

[Natalie]

Her being like, I didn't marry a

[Nick]

dj and suddenly, suddenly I'm in a relationship.

[Natalie]

Suddenly I'm the wife of a dj.

[Nick]

Yeah. The best is that it was like her being like, hey, like, do you think that maybe all of this stress and this frustration that you're going through, like, maybe we should be like, cutting some of the extracurricular activities? And he's like, but you don't even want to talk about how Lover boy is stressing me out. It's like, well, lover Boy is your bread and butter. Lover Boys, the company you built from the ground up, either sell that company if it's such a burden to you, and then get divorced and become a full time dj, or handle your business at Lover Boy. Maybe you being gone every week and weekend DJing and not being able to invest that time into your company is why it's such a burden to you.

[Natalie]

Saying the alternative is what? Staying in the apartment all weekend? And she's like, no, we would do things together. Hang out, date.

[Joe]

The best moment of every day of my life.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

Right now is flip it.

[Joe]

Getting into bed with my wife and Just watching.

[Natalie]

Yeah, watching a show.

[Joe]

Watching a show and just like taking my daughter to the park and grabbing, you know, a dinner and not thinking about work or whatever. It is like just slowing down at this stage in my life which is similar to the ages of Kyle, when Kyle is just like. But I've never been happier DJing. And it's. I'm glad he's found his happy place, but I could not imagine what it'd be like. I mean, again, dating some. I'm married to someone younger than me. I couldn't imagine if one day Nelly comes home and was just like, I needed. Well, I don't know what would be the equivalent, I guess DJing. Let's think, you know, yeah, she could DJ and she was like, I've never been happier doing this thing.

[Natalie]

I hate techno music, guys.

[Joe]

I couldn't ever doing this thing where like, you're not there, you're not there ever. You don't come on these trips with me and you don't know what. Just never been happier.

[Mary]

It's so.

[Joe]

I have a TV show, I have my business, I have my marriage. But you know what really brings joy to my life?

[Natalie]

Uhhuh. When I get to leave. When I get to leave, get hammered and stay up until 5:00am yeah, well.

[Nick]

And then he was like, she doesn't understand. Like, I'm able to like go to these shows and get lover boy into venues and it's just like, okay, so is lover boy the biggest burden of your life that you don't want to do or now you're saying it. You also use it as the excuse and the reason as to why DJ is beneficial, where I'm just like, I just don't buy it. I don't think these clubs are like putting lover boy. Yeah, they'll sell it for the night because you're there. But I'm like, they're not continuously selling lover boy at like Atrium in Las Vegas.

[Joe]

It does make me sad for Kyle that like, he just can't see what everyone else can see.

[Nick]

Oh, Carl in the mid season trailer being like, you're about to throw away your life and your relationship, everything you've built for what, some fun for a couple of nights?

[Natalie]

And now he's being like, oh, I, I think the, the Tink girl, Mara Higgins is like, so how. And she's like, I don't know who this man is, but like, no thanks. It's like that's your reality.

[Nick]

The Tink girl just got a Birkin.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

And you.

[Nick]

And you just finally Gave a Cardier watch after 10 years.

[Joe]

Called her the Tink girl.

[Nick]

Yeah, like how she says I tink? I think instead of I think.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Cuz you know, heaven forbid you know her name. Yeah, I've got a crush on her. But like, wouldn't google her.

[Natalie]

Wouldn't googler or know how to say her name.

[Joe]

Ben and Bailey. Bailey.

[Natalie]

Ben and Bailey.

[Joe]

Everything's fine.

[Nick]

That was interesting.

[Joe]

We all lost our. The Internet was taking sides.

[Natalie]

I'm fine. Yeah.

[Mary]

Yeah. They seem okay.

[Natalie]

Hot make out and then him like, getting into bed after with her and being like, yeah, you know, hey. She starts crying and she's like, thank you for apologizing to me.

[Mary]

I'm like, you know, really? I love my girl Bailey.

[Natalie]

She's so normal with Carl.

[Mary]

She's so nor. She's so.

[Natalie]

It's so chill.

[Joe]

Honestly.

[Mary]

It's like. And that's because she does not want

[Joe]

to sleep with them.

[Mary]

Exactly. And that's so real.

[Nick]

It is, you know, it is real. You become so weird. Or some people become so weird when you're like, interested in somebody. Yeah. You start saying the wrong thing and then you're overthinking it. It's like the worst.

[Joe]

It's like, that's a nice hair. Did you do it yourself?

[Natalie]

Right?

[Nick]

Yeah. Like, it's so relatable.

[Mary]

I just know exactly every single time I know what Bailey is feeling exactly every single time. She's standing next to Ben and I'm just like, girl, I'm sorry. Sorry.

[Natalie]

When Lindsay's at the table and she's like, yeah, I told Bailey to go for you. And he's like, oh, you know. Yeah. She also told me that you, like, gave me two thumbs down. And she's like, well, I just said that, like, you know, he probably won't

[Nick]

have sex with you.

[Natalie]

And he's like, in his confession being like, well, let's just be clear. Like, when we were hooking up, she said it was the best sex of her life. It's like, no, Carl, like, no one was doubting your game, buddy.

[Mary]

That's not what she was.

[Natalie]

Perk up your chest here. We hear you.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Joe]

But it was, yeah.

[Natalie]

Charming, cute.

[Jorge]

Yeah.

[Joe]

I love Lindsay's having her best life. She's like, I'm not really part of this class. I pop in and out and when I'm here, I'm just going to start a bunch of drama and then I'm going to take care of my kids.

[Nick]

A reality TV star.

[Natalie]

I love how she comes in and she already knows what the is going on. We don't have to sit through a recap.

[Mary]

Well, she gets her recaps in the

[Natalie]

city from, like, Amanda, and they thankfully don't show them. You know, like, I need. All I need is what Lindsay's giving me. Where. Where she comes in and she's like, oh, are we gonna. Are you gonna talk about making out with me behind my back? I needed that. Loved that need. Yeah. Everything Lindsay's bringing is great.

[Mary]

And the way they're. Yeah, the way they'll do a quick flashback to, like, Lindsay of the city getting the info going and then her using it immediately as a weapon of mass destruction.

[Nick]

Even, like, Lindsay being, like, Bailey being like. Or I told Bailey that it's cool. Like, you guys should go for each other. That I'm just like. It's just showing growth. You know what I mean? Or like, Lindsay trying to have a nice conversation with Carl. She's like, how did that go? It was very much like, did you do your hair different? Okay. And I'm gonna leave now.

[Natalie]

Bye, Carl.

[Joe]

Basically hiding upstairs while Lindsay's there.

[Nick]

Literally.

[Joe]

Hilarious.

[Nick]

And, like, being completely dumbfounded at her being nice to him. That he's like. I don't know how to respond.

[Natalie]

Watching Wes, like, rub Sierra, and you can tell he's like, blackout drunk. Yeah. Like, you can just see it and you can smell it through the phone.

[Mary]

When he.

[Natalie]

Yeah, when he did the footsteps. Then he scoots the chair, then the arm goes. And you see Sierra just kind of like, what the fuck? Because Jesse's laughing and she's like, what the fuck are these two doing? And Wes looking at Jesse being like, oh, fuck you up. Like, you are so hammered out of your bed, you need to go to bed.

[Nick]

My favorite is the next morning when he's on the couch and they're like, yeah, you were, like, touching a. Rubbing on stairs.

[Natalie]

Just like, stop, stop. Been there. It's.

[John]

It's.

[Mary]

It's that embarrassment from Wes that makes it hard for me to stay mad at him because he's just like, oh, no.

[Joe]

Yeah, I loved his line being like, there's nothing worse than not knowing if you were Cringe, cringe.

[Mary]

And I've never felt anything more in my heart.

[John]

You know what I mean?

[Mary]

That's the thing about me and Wes.

[Joe]

Carl caught astray when, like, you know, Sierra and the girls are talking about whether, like, west and him her actually done, like, would you give him another chance?

[Nick]

Oh.

[Joe]

And then chimes in, which is, like, so real. Right? Like, sometimes you find finally when you. You Know, there's the whole phase of a breakup. You know, you're up about it, whether maybe you left the relationship, they left you, but you. You. Your whole life was still wrapped. You know, you have so much history. All your Sundays were. You know, you had a routine. And then there's this kind of weird. You know. You know, you shouldn't be with them, so you don't. But you kind of hang out and then finally you get to the point where you're just like, we dated. Yeah, I can't.

[Mary]

We did earlier.

[Joe]

I would never. And then you have Lindsay being like, so let me just. Just frame it for you. I would never in a million years ever be caught in the same room with Carl Radke. And, you know, and again, she's just trying to talk to his girls. But, like, it can't help but feel to Carl if he's watching it back, being like, Jesus fucking Christ. Like, am I. Was I a monster? Like, it's like, holy shit. But, like, that's just her. Like, she doesn't want to be with Carl. Totally get it. But, like, it also, like, made it clear, you know? Then Sierra's like, well, when you put it that way, I'm not. She is not at that phase with Wes where she looks at him and goes, huh?

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Joe]

What?

[Mary]

Yeah, she looks at him.

[Joe]

He's like, I was. I. I cried over. I was in. I was sad over this thing, you know, and she's definitely not there, but

[Nick]

I've definitely had that thought.

[Joe]

No, it's very, very, very relatable. Does look like a great second half of the season. I'm really enjoying the season one of their considering we let we know it's a very transitional season for them.

[Mary]

Yeah, I mean, this. I love this guy. Like all the new people. I had a harder time with some of the new people last season because I feel like Lexi got done dirty, so it's not her fault or anything. It was just Jesse did her dirty, and so it was hard for her to have an actual character. But, like, yeah, watching, like, Mia and Bailey and Ben, like, in kj, like, you know, I'm. I'm locked in. I'm. I'm invested. I want to know more about their lives.

[Joe]

All right, well, that will do it for today's episode. Thank you to our guests John and Jorge from Age of Attraction. We appreciate. Appreciate you all listening. Bye Bye. Everyone deserves to be connected. T Mobile and US Cellular are joining forces. Our networks are coming together, bringing more T Mobile coverage all over the country. Switch to T Mobile and save up to 20% versus verify Verizon by getting built in benefits they leave out. Check the math@t mobile.com Switch and now T Mobile is available in a US cellular store near you. Bigger network the combination of T Mobile and US Cellular's network footprints will enhance the T Mobile network's coverage. Savings versus Comparable Verizon plans, plus the costs of options, benefits, plan features and taxes and fees vary. Savings with three plus lines include third free line free via monthly bill credits. Credit stop if you cancel any lines. Qualifying credit required.