E1097 Ask Nick - My Husband Keeps Choosing Her Over Me

Summary

The Viall Files – Episode E1097 Ask Nick: "My Husband Keeps Choosing Her Over Me"

Date: March 23, 2026
Host: Nick Viall
Featured Co-hosts: Michelle and Brooke

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Episode Overview

In this "Ask Nick" advice episode, Nick Viall and his household open the lines to three callers dealing with different but equally nuanced relationship struggles: breaking repetitive situationship cycles, grieving the loss of a “best friend” situationship, and the complex dynamic of feeling sidelined by a spouse’s close female coworker. Nick brings his trademark mix of empathy, bluntness, and humor to dig into each caller’s story — challenging self-perception, urging hard truths, and validating deep, often unspoken fears.

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Caller #1: Brooke (27) – Breaking the Situationship Cycle

Main Storyline (02:23–38:40):
Brooke seeks Nick's advice on her habit of revisiting toxic situationships, particularly a man who lied about being 10 years older. She’s aware of her self-sabotaging patterns but struggles to break them.

Key Discussion Points

• Pattern Recognition:
  Brooke admits to repeatedly returning to men who are bad for her, avoiding discomfort of new connections.

  "I just keep going back to people that I know I shouldn't. And yeah, it's kind of putting me in scenarios." (02:51)

• Deconstructing Excuses:
  Nick challenges Brooke’s self-narrative about scarcity of connection and fear of discomfort.

  "You can't keep making excuses like, 'Connections are hard to make.' Of course they're hard to make. They should be hard to make." (15:55)

• Accountability vs. Entertainment:
  Nick reframes the drama of situationships as a distraction from self-growth.

  “Why do you give people a chance who lie to you?... It's drama. It's something to do. It's entertainment, you know, and so instead of watching, instead of turning on Love is Blind... It's a little bit of drama that you’re the main character of.” (11:49)

• Standards and Growth:
  Nick pushes Brooke to not conflate being “picky” with being avoidant or shrinking her comfort zone.

  “That’s not pickiness. That is... There’s discomfort in going on dates. That is you not being willing to push your comfort zone.” (27:00)

• Advice for Change:
  He recommends recalibrating her approach, focusing on connections that feel good, developing self-awareness, and having a friend hold her accountable.

  "You need to evaluate the connections you have in your life and think about which ones make you feel good. Ask yourself, why do they make me feel good?" (32:28)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Nick, on age and “growing up”:

  "You're 27. I say this with love, but it’s time to grow up." (23:52)

• Brooke's real-time realization:

  “I know when I'm doing these things, like, sometimes I don’t even tell my friends because I’m kind of embarrassed.” (23:30)

• Nick, on boundaries and expectations:

  “We’re using boundaries as an excuse to not expand our comfort zones.” (36:57)

Memorable Takeaway

Brooke leaves with a clear charge: cherish her time, pursue intentional connections, and treat her own standards as non-negotiable.

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Caller #2: Michelle (29) – Losing a "Best Friend" to Ghosting

Main Storyline (42:58–109:50):
Michelle is reeling from the abrupt ghosting by her best friend, with whom she shared a years-long friendship that developed into a romantic relationship, then fizzled out with no explanation.

Key Discussion Points

• Timeline of Friendship Turning Romantic:
  The relationship evolves gradually into a situationship, complicated by distance and mutual friend group entanglement.
• Recurring Self-Doubt and Overanalysis:
  Michelle describes constant second-guessing, struggling to trust her intuition, and a tendency to “poke holes” instead of giving things a real try:

  “I think this goes back to just the fact of, like, the spark... when you know, you so know... I couldn’t help but kept feeling like something was maybe missing.” (56:33)

• Processing Regret, Grief & Rumination:
  Nick addresses the common tendency to romanticize past relationships after they dissolve, especially when closure is elusive.

  “Stop replaying the various conversations you've had with him, specifically what he said to you... you're romanticizing it in ways that you weren't when you were questioning yourself.” (78:08)

• The Importance of ‘Trying’ and Letting Go:
  Nick emphasizes the value of genuinely investing in relationships, rather than passively waiting for clarity or “the spark,” using his own history with Natalie as illustration (91:42–96:29).

  "I could have dated some of these people, ended the relationship, and still be where I am today, but I never tried... If I never try, if I never put myself out there with a willingness to be wrong... I’ll just be casually dating and waiting for a miracle to happen." (93:51)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Overthinking and Moving Forward:

  “Now’s not the time to really ruminate about this guy. Now’s the time to focus on how to get past it, get through it.” (102:49)

• Practical Closure vs. Emotional Closure:

  “You have the clarity, right? The ‘why’ doesn’t really matter.” (87:55)

• Michelle, on learning from heartbreak:

  "I just regret not giving things a real try. Maybe we’d have lasted six months and it wouldn’t have worked out, but I didn’t see it through.” (103:45)

Actionable Advice

• Stop “dating him in your head” and information-hunting.
• Accept that not all answers—especially the “why” behind ghosting—are necessary for closure.
• Next time, lean into safe, reliable love even when it's not perfect or dramatic.
• If it’s meant to be, “he will show up.”

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Caller #3: Jane (35) – “My Husband Keeps Choosing Her Over Me”

Main Storyline (113:00–143:05):
Jane, eight months pregnant, is overwhelmed by her husband’s emotionally intimate friendship with his female coworker—one that eclipses their own connection and leaves her feeling secondary.

Key Discussion Points

• Emotional Infidelity & Prioritization:
  Jane describes a sustained pattern: her husband talks, texts, and spends time with his female coworker, relegating Jane to the sidelines—even as she navigates pregnancy.

  “He’s not our therapist.” (115:52, Nick)

• Gaslighting & Boundary Refusal:
  Jane’s husband denies wrongdoing ("I'm not doing anything wrong!") and refuses to adjust his behavior, instead making Jane feel crazy for objecting.
• Nick’s Unflinching Clarification:
  Nick lays out why the husband’s behavior is unacceptable, especially for a married man with a young family.

  “He is literally doing that with another woman… That is a meaningful connection that as people we desire, especially married couples.” (117:43)

• The Reality of Vulnerability:
  Nick points out that while pregnancy inherently shifts relational dynamics, the pregnant partner deserves more support, not less.

  “Honestly, anytime a guy makes his feelings more important than his wife’s when she’s pregnant, he’s kind of a dick.” (139:09)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Nick (on alternatives to cheating):

  “There are other ways people can cheat or feel… It is hurting our connection.” (117:43)

• Jane, on feeling forced to be the “bad guy":

  “I either feel like I’m saying no and he’s at home resenting me… or I let him go and I’m at home anxious and upset.” (130:17)

• Nick, validating Jane:

  “You shouldn’t feel like you have to apologize or feel weird about it. The fact that he’s even arguing with you is crazy.” (124:34)

Advice Highlights

• Nick recommends:
  • Stop defending your feelings; they're valid.
  • If husband won’t voluntarily shift priorities, couples therapy should be non-negotiable.
  • This is not about “winning an argument”: “Don’t waste energy debating what should be obvious.” (136:01)
  • The marriage has an expiration date if he keeps centering his needs over his family’s.
• On boundaries and clarity:
  Jane is encouraged to voice her non-negotiables, consider therapy, and realize it’s not her job to justify needing more from her partner.

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Engaging Episode Quotes (with Timestamps)

• Nick: "You're a smart person making dumb choices." (29:39, to Brooke)
• Nick: "The world is full of people who will gladly waste our time if we let them." (33:56, to Brooke)
• Nick: "You have the clarity, right? The specifics is so you don’t have the why. The why doesn’t really matter." (87:55, to Michelle)
• Nick: "You shouldn’t feel like you have to apologize or feel weird about it. The fact that he’s even arguing with you is crazy." (124:34, to Jane)
• Jane: "I either feel like I’m saying no and he’s at home resenting me… or I let him go and I’m at home anxious and upset." (130:17)

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Key Takeaways for Listeners

• For the Stuck:
  Break your “old situationship” cycles by recognizing them as comfort-zone distractions, not real connection. Hold yourself to a higher standard, and get an accountability partner if needed.
• For the Heartbroken:
  Stop romanticizing relationships that left you confused or unsupported. Grieve, write a letter if you need for closure, and remember: trying and failing is better than never having invested at all.
• For the Overlooked Spouse:
  Emotional investment outside your partnership can be as destructive as physical infidelity. You deserve to be prioritized, not convinced to accept less.
• Universal Wisdom:
  “Don’t date someone in your head.”
  “Don’t waste energy trying to understand the ‘why’ of someone else abandoning you."
  “Boundaries are good, but not when used to keep yourself small.”

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Important Timestamps

• Breaking Old Situationship Patterns: 02:23–38:40
• Best Friend Turned Ghost (Grieving & Letting Go): 42:58–109:50
• The Married Woman Feeling Second to a Coworker: 113:00–143:05

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Nick’s Tone:
Direct, compassionate, unapologetically honest—never cruel, always aiming to get listeners to their own truth.

Use this episode if you…
Need a reality check about your dating habits, crave validation in the messy aftermath of heartbreak, or are reeling from feeling dismissed in your marriage.

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For those who haven’t listened: this episode offers tough love, real talk, and permission to stand up for the relationship you want (with yourself or with others).

Transcript

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[Michelle]

You're crazy.

[Nick]

How's it going?

[Michelle]

Good.

[Brooke]

How are you?

[Nick]

Good.

[Michelle]

Awesome.

[Brooke]

My name's brooke and I'm 27.

[Nick]

How can I help Brooke?

[Brooke]

Yeah, so my situationship lied to me about being 10 years older than me and I still went back to him.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Brooke]

So just looking for some advice on how to not go back to old situations.

[Nick]

Have you done this more than with him?

[Brooke]

Yeah, I've done this a few times just to avoid making new connections because I do find connection sometimes hard with men. So. Yeah.

[Nick]

Do you think that's the reason?

[Brooke]

I think part of it, yeah. I use dating apps and whatnot, but honestly, one in every huge handful of men I actually have a conversation with, so I just find it hard to connect. And yeah, I just keep going back to people that I know I shouldn't. And yeah, it's kind of putting me in scenarios.

[Nick]

In your pursuit of finding your person. Do you think it should be easy?

[Brooke]

And I you. I know you've said this quite a bit in the past and I actually, I say this to my friends too. I don't think it should be easy. Like, finding connections should be a bit of a process. You're not going to connect with everyone. But the ones that I do connect with, I seem to hold on to for some reason, even if they've done me dirty like that guy did.

[Nick]

Why do you think that is?

[Brooke]

I don't know. I really don't know. It's just an ease thing or just like a lack of maybe connection.

[Nick]

So walk me, walk me through this current situationship. How'd you guys meet? Kind of give me the important details that led to him you finding out he lied to you.

[Brooke]

Okay, so just to give a bit of a backstory. So things have changed a bit since I've written in, but I'll go over a few things. So we met three years ago on the street when I moved to a new city. He actually tapped me on the shoulder and said to me, you know, you're gorgeous, here's my number, I'd love to chat. Basically, we texted a bit before we hung out. At the time I was 24 and he told me he was 27. And yeah, we got physical kind of quick. This was also my first like, situation since being with nobody in any emotional or physical way for about a year. So we did end up hooking up kind of quickly. And I didn't really know if it was going to go anywhere, but we kept hanging out for about four months. Our humor didn't really line up, so I was like, kind of okay with what we were doing. But things did get a bit deeper. We were going on dates and whatnot. Basically, he ended up texting me four months later and being like, I have A lot of growing up to do, when I catch feelings, I tend to run and all this. So at this point I still thought he was 27. We ended, and silly me, younger me, I did end up messaging him six months later and, well, maybe four months later and for no reason other than to just say hi. And he immediately responded saying, I need to talk to you. Do you have some time to meet up? And I'm like, what do you mean? And he's like, I wanted to tell you the truth about something. I lied to you. And I was, okay, just tell me over text. He's like, no. So he comes and picks me up, I get in the car, and he basically says that he'd been lying to me the whole time when we were together. And I was like, okay. And he's like, I was lying to you about my age. And I said, okay, are you younger? Because he honestly looked younger than 27. And he's like, no, I'm actually 10 years older than you. So he was. Yeah, 10 years older. And I was confused as to obviously why he lied about that, because I do tend to go for older guys anyways.

[Nick]

10 years older is not that crazy. And I mean, exactly. Certainly you would might have the prerogative. And it wouldn't be crazy for you to be like, I don't know, like a little too old for me, but a lot of women in your shoes would happily date a guy who's a great connection if they're, you know, who happens to be 10 years older.

[Brooke]

So I explained that to him and I said, why did you lie? Because I would have been open to it. And he's like, I'll be completely honest, I'm embarrassed of my age. I tell all my new friends that I meet at the beginning that I'm younger because as I was growing up, I always looked younger. So people would always card me when I said my age. And I was just like, sick of it. And I didn't think we were gonna get serious.

[Nick]

But that doesn't make sense why he's telling people he's younger. I mean, if he was self conscious about his age, you would almost. He would lie about being older.

[Brooke]

Yeah, I don't know. I didn't really understand it either. But he said he did this with his hockey friends and he didn't want it to be this big whole thing.

[Nick]

So then what happened after that?

[Brooke]

We. No, we went on our way. And this was three years ago again. So over the past three years, we hung out or we got together randomly once we went on a drive. We did nothing. We just caught up. And then about last summer, he texted me and he said, I'd love to catch up. For some reason, I did it. We ended up kind of getting into something again. But I told him, like, I don't know if I can trust you again, all this stuff. We ended up seeing each other for about three months. And then I realized if I was going to do this again, which I didn't want to tell any of my friends, I was doing it because this is my pattern. I go back to men. So I kind of kept that away from them. And I was trying to figure it out on my own. I was like, I'm only going to do this if it's. Seems like he's grown up a bit in terms of, like, just being ready for something. And it kind of seemed like it did. He was, like, progressing things. He was giving me reassurance. He was telling me about what he wants in the future. And then a situation happened and I realized, okay, this is never. He's never going to be the person I want. So I ended things with him. I can get into that if you want, but I sent you some texts on how that ended, but.

[Nick]

Yeah, with this current guy. Some other guy or this guy?

[Brooke]

No, this guy.

[Nick]

Okay, so is it over?

[Brooke]

It's over now. I sent him. Basically what happened was I was. He lives far away now. He moved there because he wants to settle down and da, da, da, da. But he lives near my college. And yeah, I basically went over there one night. I was like, I'm gonna be near you. If you want me to come by and drop you off dinner, I can. I show up. He is also a very regimented person. So he has a big routine. Working out in the morning, night swimming, out of the house every hour of the day, whatever. So I text him. I was like, I can come, but if you are too busy or, you know, you have too much going on tonight, just let me know. And he's like, oh, I think it should be fine. Just let me know when you're leaving. So I show up and I gave him the out to not want to not hang out. And I show up and he. This man was, like, cold. He was just like, someone I didn't like. No, it was so weird. And something was obviously off. So I texted him. And communication was a big thing the second time around because I'm like, I'm only gonna do this if we can actually be honest with each other, and which is never communicate, which he's never been, I guess, about his age. He did say he never lied to me about anything else. But of course, how am I gonna know that? But yeah, he ended up. I texted him, I was like, hey, like, there was something clearly off the other night, like, what happened? And he's like, well, I was just so thrown off by my routine. And I said, you could have just told me if you were too busy. And I'm totally chill. Like, his routine, dude, when I tell you this, man, Morning hour at the gym, lunch, gym, after work, basketball, swimming, going to the gym, basketball till 10pm I showed up at 10pm and he was acting weird.

[Nick]

And I'm like, okay, well, yeah, I doubt it's. I mean, who knows? Doesn't matter.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Brooke]

And the thing is, like, it seems like maybe he just wasn't interested. And I thought of that this whole time. But at the same time, he was pursuing me outwardly, constantly telling me how he felt and all this stuff.

[Nick]

I mean, what do you. I mean, you've. I'm sure you've listened to this show. Yeah, I'm. I'm ready to kind of just give it to me.

[Brooke]

I give it to you.

[Nick]

But, like, But I want. I want you to, you know, before I give it to you, so to speak, I want you to give it to yourself. And I want you to honestly think about. This is not calculus. This is not a complicated equation. And what I'm going to say is a version of things I've said to other people.

[Jane]

Yeah.

[Nick]

On this show. And I am just curious what you think.

[Brooke]

Yeah, I mean, maybe since I've taken him back, he probably. I just feel like he probably wasn't as interested as maybe I thought he was.

[Nick]

I want you. Okay, try to answer this question. This has nothing to do with him. You called in and you're saying your question was, why do I have a hard time letting go of my situationship? So the question was. You were asking me a question about why you do what you do. Your behavior. You did not call. Your question wasn't about why does my situation ship do X, Y or Z? So I want you to think from that perspective and that lens and analyze your behavior and why you are choosing. You are making choices. Yes. That you later find frustrating about yourself. And that has nothing to do with him.

[Brooke]

Yeah. That's fair. Yeah. Could it be kind of like a respect thing towards myself?

[Nick]

I'm sure there's a little bit. I mean, listen, the simple answer is why you do what you do when it comes to situationship. Is your board boredom. You have, like, you. You know, at. At certain times, and we all do that, right? Like, you know, like, we're. Maybe we have it know, we haven't found a fun connection online. We haven't met someone over a period of time, and, you know, someone from our past or someone we have some kind of rapport with pops back into our life, and it like, takes two seconds to just hit him up and see what's going on. And, And. And then if we happen to hit some up who's also bored enough to respond or just, you know, or, you know, whether it's. And in his case, it's probably not boredom. He's probably just like, has a roster of women he talks to. You reached out. For whatever reason, the last time he ended things, he felt like things were getting too. There was too much pressure for him, you know, his routine or whatever. So he was like, I can't. I don't know. She's. She's asking too much of me. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna push this away. Some time pass. You reached out. That gives him the green light to, like, re. Engage because he already, like, set his BO and his expectation, which is like, I don't know. I need to figure myself out. Why. Why do you give people a chance who lie to you? Because it's, again, fun. It's drama. You're caught up in a story, you know, it's something to figure out. You know, it's something you can go back and ask your girlfriends, like, why would he do this? Why do you. Why do you think a guy would do this? I don't know. And you guys can pow wow about it and you can go in the group chats. It's drama. It's. It's something to do. It's. It's entertainment, you know, and so instead of watching, instead of turning on Love is Blind or whatever, reality TV show or drama, you know, show that you like to watch. It's. It's. It's kind of. It's a little bit of drama that it's where the main character of, you know, it's, you know, we're involved in. It's something to do. The problem with this is that again, it's. It's. It's not helping you get to where you want to go. So, like, to. To try to nip this in the bud and stop doing it. How do you do it? You. You have to hold yourself more accountable, and you have to see it for what it is. And if, you know, you can't keep making excuses like. Well, connections are hard to make. Of course they're hard to make. They should be hard to make.

[Brooke]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, if. Listen, the. The. The enemy of great is good, you know, type of thing. So if you, you know, I don't know. I'm assuming. What do you want for yourself in your dating life? Like, what are your. What are your relationship goals?

[Brooke]

Yeah, I've been single for five years now. I've had a couple situations that haven't worked out recently. I have been dating a bit more, and it is mostly from the apps, just because I haven't been going out as much anymore. It's also winter, but, you know, I recently did match with someone. We had a great vibe. We went on a few dates, but. And I am looking for a relationship,

[Nick]

but what's your big picture goal? Do you. You want to. You want to get married? Do you want to?

[Brooke]

Yeah, I want to get married.

[Nick]

You want kids? Okay, so you. You want to find meaningful connection that you hope lasts a lifetime or a great deal of time? I guess.

[Brooke]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You want to meet someone that you trust enough and they're incompatible enough with someone that you would want to raise a family with.

[Brooke]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, bring life into this world. You know, face the obstacles and the challenges that come with the beautiful thing that is to create a family. But, like, the challenges that come with that. Right. And you have to like you. You are not. When you're out there dating, you're not thinking about that. You're not even considering that you're out there just like, you know, on the can, just swiping, you know, playing hot or not looking for a little bit of a dopamine hit, you know, and that's. That's as far as you're going. You're just. You're looking for a good time. You know, you're just kind of. You've. You've lowered your expectations so much that you're just. You'll take anything that feels a little bit good.

[Brooke]

That's fair. No, that is fair. You know, I do find myself. It's like, I say I want this deep connection, but it is really hard to find. Like, honestly. And I know everybody says that. I know you know that. And I know it's supposed to be hard, like we said. I even just had a guy we were vibing, and he sent me a calendar invite to more or less dump me. So there was that.

[Nick]

What he did what.

[Brooke]

So we hung out probably about seven times, went on a Few dates. We had very similar personalities. Good connection. I was like, okay, this is Vibe. And we had a talk. He's dual citizen with the States. So he basically, I knew this and he told me he was looking for something at the beginning. And I said, okay, great, let's try this, whatever. And then we were on FaceTime one night and he tried to bring up this conversation, like, oh, how do you feel about the fact that I might go back to the States at some point and us progressing? So I thought this was maybe like, like a step in a good direction. Like, oh, maybe he's seeing this as in the future. Like, how do you feel about that? I said I'd, you know, not for you, but in general, I would be open to doing something long distance or moving in the future. But I don't know how you feel about. I don't even know what we're talking about. And then he's like, oh, let's continue this conversation tomorrow. I'm going to send you a calendar invite. And it was just our, like, like our inside joke is our first date. He sent a calendar invite. And he sent a calendar invite saying the talk the next day. He calls me at that time and he more or less said, like, I'm not. I'm going on this spiritual thing starting on Sunday. Like, I need to focus on myself right now. I don't want anything serious. And I was like, okay, that's fine. We didn't do this drama.

[Nick]

But that's crazy.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Brooke]

So I think I just, maybe I'm the one that needs to be a bit more intentional with who I decide to continue talking to. It's tough because my therapist always says, like, she kind of tells me, like, I need to stop worrying so much about the future and, like, just live in the moment. So it's a really hard battle between letting things go, how they're going and worrying about a relationship with someone in the future. You know what I mean?

[Nick]

Well, your therapist is right.

[Brooke]

Yeah.

[Nick]

We certainly all like, anxiety comes from worrying about the future. Feeling depressed is, is. Is come. Is. Is thoughts and feelings about the past and be resolved type of thing. But yeah, so, like, listen, I'm. I constantly work on trying to be present and focus on the present. And we all have anxiety. And. But your therapist is right. But like, you're not, you're not, you're not processing her feedback, I think, correctly, in a sense. And again, in a way, like so much of your. You have to take charge of your dating life and your life.

[Brooke]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Right now. You are, you are letting the men you date set the pace of your love life. You are, you are not asking yourself the right questions. You're not listening to your body and yourself. Yeah, you are. The only thing you are responding to is drama and entertainment. And it's keeping you preoccupied because you're clearly, you have the instincts, you're obviously a smart person. And if you would just take a moment and listen to your therapist, for example, and be present right, think about, you know, forget about the future. How does this, how does this moment make me feel? You know, hey, I'm in a car with this guy, he's like, you know, by the way, I've been lying to you the whole time. Oh my God, that statement, first of all, that statement from anyone is kind of heavy right now. There are situations where good people make bad mistakes and sometimes get caught up in a sticky situation and say lie or whatever. And certainly there are exceptions to rules. But for a guy you barely knew, didn't have much of a rapport with, and then in that moment, had no real connection or reason to stay, that should be enough to be like, listen, this didn't require a get together. Thanks for letting me know. I know that's weird that you're lying to people about your age. Again, his explanation didn't make sense. His explanation was talking about how he's always looked young for an age that made that he didn't like how he was always getting carded, yada, yada, yada. And so now he's lying about being 10 years younger. Like, why doesn't he not like his age? Why wouldn't a 37 year old who looks 27 is someone who's looked young for his age Most of my life, as I got older, you know, part of it was like I could be honest because I always got the holy, really? You're not, you know, like, you know, and so I got some positive reinforcement. Like it just, it doesn't add up that this guy who looks so young, who's 37 is so insecure about his age. Like I, again, like, if he, that, that just tells me he just lies all the time. So he doesn't really know how to process like what people would actually think. Because I think most people would be like, you, like, he might run into someone who's like, I don't know, yeah, maybe you're a little old for me. But most people, men and women, if he was just honest about his age would be like, oh, wow. And, and as a 37 year old, like they're, you know, a lot of people would probably give him the benefit of the doubt. You know, like, a lot of women your age are probably very frustrated with a lot of the men your age. And a lot of women your age are trying to age up and hoping that they find a guy in his mid-30s who maybe has a little bit more, who feels a little bit more established at work, who's maybe making a little bit more money, who isn't still playing video games constantly, you know, and he should own that. Like the fact that he wants to sound like he still like, is, you know, now probably he is, quite frankly, from what you tell me, living a life like a 27 year old, you know, very selfish, very routined. And, and it's all about him, you know, it's, it's, you know, and that, that tracks. But none of that should be a green flag for you. But you're not asking yourself how, how these men are making you feel. You're just responding to the feeling they give you. And it's a trigger and you feel something. And like, listen, I get it. I know what it's like to be single for a long time and there are times where I was like, I don't feel anything. I feel nothing at all.

[Brooke]

Yeah, I think that is, maybe I am just chasing like something.

[Nick]

Yeah. But you really have to, like, check yourself. And again, like, part of that is just, you know, part of that is not thinking about the future. Your therapist is right. You're spending all this time worrying about finding someone, thinking about being alone, telling yourself that it's not going to happen, and put your, put your mental state in this kind of like, like desperation mindset so that when anything shows up at your door, you're just excited that something is happening. But you have set the expectation in your mind that like, you have no worth, that like, you shouldn't have these expectations. You have men stopping you on the street saying, wow, you're beautiful. Like, would you like to go out? Like, I mean, that should feel good. Like, why? You know, like, you know, you might not be everyone's type, but like, clearly you have, like, you can meet guys. Like, you've met men your whole life, you know, like, like you are just selling yourself way too short.

[Brooke]

I know, I know. I need to have more confidence in that sense, I think. And just like making better decisions just for how it makes me feel. Like, because I know when I'm doing these things, like, sometimes I don't even tell my friends because I'm kind of Embarrassed of what I'm doing. And I almost like, know.

[Nick]

How old are you? You're 27.

[Brooke]

I'm 27.

[Nick]

I say this with love, but it's, listen, it's, it's time to grow up.

[Brooke]

I know.

[Nick]

You know, as a 27 year person who like, you seem like overall you have your shit together. Yeah, you should, you know, if you're night, you know, 19 and you're doing things that you know, don't want to tell your friends because you're kind of embarrassed, I'll give you a pass. You're 27.

[Brooke]

That's so fair. I know.

[Nick]

You know, what am I doing? And it's like you, you literally know. You're literally having a conversation with yourself in real time. Being like, I'm not going to tell you the truth. It's like, okay, like again, we've all done some crazy shit in our life, you know, for love. And I think we all get a pass when we're, you know, 18, 19 and 20, 21. As long as we're not doing, you know, as long as we're not putting anyone in harm this way.

[Brooke]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Again, I'm not trying to critique. You need to be your toughest critic, you know, I know you need, you know, because you're just think of the energy, you know. And again, this is like the thing I stress enough the most. It's like whatever, whatever insecurities you might have, I don't even know what they are. Right. But we all have them. And many of those insecurities, some of those insecurities. This is like, yeah, this is how God made me. This is who I am, you know, can't fix how my brain thinks or works. And you're gonna have to like learn that. You're gonna have to learn to love that part about you. But a lot of our insecurities are just bad habits that we haven't really had the guts to fix. And instead of wasting your energy on these men or, or worrying about the future that like hasn't showed up yet, you could be like in. You could be whatever self improvement you want to make. You could be take. And then you would feel good about yourself. You would be thinking about the commitment and the work you put in. And when you do that, then your time does be get more precious. When you start using your energy in ways to better yourself instead of wasting your energy in ways that hurt yourself, you become way more precious with your time. Right now you, yeah, you don't value your time and, and you're like Well, I could. I could use my time to make this bad decision, or I could, you know, use my time to do nothing. But your option is make bad decisions with men or. Or lie on the couch?

[Brooke]

No, I honestly do. Maybe it doesn't seem like it, but I honestly do do a lot of work on myself.

[Nick]

I'm not saying reflect it. I'm not saying you don't, but. Yeah, what I'm saying is the way you've talked, and I'm sure you do, but you could clearly be doing a lot more. But the way you are so quick to waste your own time at 27 years old and is. Is like, you, I just like knowing that you need to set better standards for yourself.

[Brooke]

I do. And it's like, with dating, it's not. I rarely go on dates. Like, I rarely am seeing someone, like, long, like, seeing someone. Like, I'm very picky, which apparently not because I keep going back to old people. But with, like, people on dating apps, like, I rarely go on dates.

[Nick]

And I think, yeah, but that's not. That's not pickiness. That is. Again, there's discomfort in going on dates there. It's uncomfortable. That is you not being willing to push your comfort zone. If you told me, Nick, I mean, you know, I go on all these dates, I might say, slow down. You're, like, pushing a little too hard, but, like, at least you're out there trying. We had a caller not too long ago who's, like, who hadn't dated at all. She lost a bunch of weight, and she went on, like, 47 dates in a year. And I was like, okay, that's like, you know, but, like, at least that was like, her getting. Catching up with a lack of experience. And, like, maybe she needed to make some adjustments, but, like, she was out there, like, yeah, you know, put. You know, just like, you know, really, you know, you know how uncomfortable it is to, like, have never dated and then go on 47 dates. Like, you imagine the amount of strange men that she had to interact with and meet and, like, kind of process and get over that. That took real work for her, you know, and that's, you know, but she's. That, you know, she will benefit from that because that was her pushing, her comfort zone. It sounds like you have really shrunk in your comfort zone, and then you'll use that as an excuse and you'll say, oh, and you'll call that pickiness. You should be picky.

[Brooke]

That's a good way to look at it.

[Nick]

I know. You should be Picky. But you should push your comfort zone and try to find new ways to learn things. And you should be open to be surprised and you can still be picky and still push your comfort zone.

[Brooke]

Yeah, no, you're right. I hear you. That's good advice. Honestly, I think I needed to hear that. It's like, I know these things, but just hearing it from someone else, I think just kind of puts things in purchase into perspective. Like, I am getting older and you're still young.

[Nick]

I mean like, you're only 27, but you're just, you are definitely too old to be making 19 year old mistakes now.

[Jane]

You're so.

[Brooke]

That's so valid.

[Jane]

You're right.

[Nick]

I mean, and again, like you, you, the, the. All the signs are there when you are embarrassed to tell your friends, don't do that. Yeah, you're right, you know.

[Brooke]

Yeah, no, definitely. I think that kind of was.

[Nick]

Have one friend to hold you accountable.

[Brooke]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Have one friend that I. Listen, I'm gonna tell you all my decision and like I just check me, you know, and listen, this, this isn't easy. I know I'm being a little like direct with you, but like.

[Brooke]

No, I appreciate it.

[Nick]

It is hard.

[Jane]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But you can do it. And I know, you know, you have to listen, you know, listen to your therapist. You're not, you know, like you're paying or you're paying them money, but they're right, you know, like be present. How. Listen to your body.

[Brooke]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You are not listening. That you do. Yes, correct. And that's the most, the best, the, the thing that you should take away from this call more than anything. Yeah, you're, you're right. You're a smart person making dumb choices.

[Brooke]

No, that is so valid. And yeah, I just think, Is there even a point of like, I don't know what I'm thinking by thinking that any connection is like worth it. Like if I'm feeling bad about it, it's like it's better to just have no connection and sit with that and deal with that then.

[Nick]

Well, think about what you just said. That's really like, that's really kind of insightful. Right. I think we do take for granted the fact that, that a connection can be bad. We can have bad connections. And I don't think that's something we think about. We hear the word connection and we think, good. Now, good connections are great. We need those. They're arguably the most important thing in life is the most meaningful. Connections are the only thing that we really remember when we look back on our life.

[Brooke]

That's true.

[Nick]

And listen, it's great. We will always encounter some bad connections. It will be those bad connections that you will remember those. But what you remember about those bad connections is how you overcame them. Yeah, right. But it. See, you know, eventually when you're just collecting bad connections and not overcoming them, they don't really become positive memories. They just. They just. There's weights.

[Brooke]

But like, maybe I'm giving myself a negative perception on maybe even men or connection as a whole, when in reality, it's my decisions that are putting me in these scenarios. You know what I mean?

[Nick]

So it's like part of it is like, you know, I think maybe you could take a pause on dating, slow down, recalibrate kind of just your. Your social life. Right. Maybe just ask yourself what friendships have. I. Do I? Do I. That. What friendships do I have that are important to me? Are there any of those friendships that maybe I have haven't invested in as much as I could? Maybe that's family members, maybe that's friends. Just focus on that for a moment. Check in with your body about how the. And how does that make you feel? I'm not saying you have to go cold turkey or delete all the apps, but I think you just need to recalibrate how you approach dating. And really kind of. Not to sound all guru ish, but like, kind of really connect with your body about how you show up for connections and how these connections in your life make you feel. Maybe you have some friendships that also are giving you bad feelings. Maybe you need to evaluate that. But I think you need to evaluate the connections you have in your life and think about which ones make you feel good. Ask yourself, why do they make me feel good?

[Brooke]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And should I reinvest and do I. Should I put more in some of these connections? And then when you really have a better understanding of how these connections in your life play a role in how you feel, then you can go out and try to replicate that when it comes to dating. And while understanding that a lot of dating comes with frustration and disappointment, but, like, enjoy the journey and have friends hold you accountable and be mindful of the obvious red flags and triggers, like you're feeling embarrassed, feeling bad, don't get caught up in the drama of trying to figure out why some of these crazy men that you date do what they do. Like, you know, well, he said this. And, you know, if they say one thing and do another, that's not something to figure out. That's just a reason to leave Especially for someone you have no rapport with, you know, or no connection with or no real connection, like, other than the fact that, like, you know, listen, this guy stopped in the street and said, you're gorgeous. That's a really great meet. Cute. And that's. That's fun and it's, you know, but. And that's. That doesn't. That doesn't mean anything. And it's all it was.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know.

[Brooke]

Yeah, I know.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Brooke]

Definitely some reflecting I have to do within myself. Kind of stop putting the blame on other people when it's me who's putting myself in these situations. You're right. You're very right, Nick.

[Nick]

Sorry.

[Brooke]

Yeah, no, no, it's great.

[Nick]

The world is full of people who will gladly waste our time if we let them.

[Brooke]

That's true. That's true. I'm just giving people permission to. Yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

And you are. You are doing what so many of us and so many people day do today is. Yeah. Letting people waste our time and then convincing ourselves that it's. They're the problem.

[Brooke]

Yeah. No, I know.

[Nick]

Like, they certainly have their problems, for sure, but it's not your problem. And you're making other people's problems yours. And when you think about it in those. That context, I mean, doesn't. It should piss you off how much time you're wasting your way. You've. You've spent mental energy.

[Brooke]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Trying to figure out why this guy makes bad decisions. That's crazy, right? You know, that's. I mean, we. Again, we've all done this. We've. We all do this. We've all done that. But, like, it is crazy. It's crazy that we do this.

[Brooke]

You're right. I have some thinking to do. I'm gonna go back to the drawing board and just.

[Nick]

This is your life. You are in total control of it. You have. You have a lot going for you. There is. There's. And you should think of this. This should excite you. Right. Because the good news is, is that however you feel now about what you don't feel like you're getting, that you want. The good news is there's a lot you can do. You know, I mean, you called me up and I was like, man, I don't know. It sounds like you're just doing everything great.

[Brooke]

No, this is why I called. I needed you to just set me straight to be honest. And, like, I do feel like I do just in general in life, take on other people's, like, responsibilities and problems without.

[Nick]

I would guess. I would guess that has to do with your either unwillingness or fear or anxiety about facing your own.

[Brooke]

Yeah, that makes sense. Definitely.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, it's a lot easier. I always say, like, you know, that that's why we love reality tv, because it is true. It is a mirror. It is a mirror for our own shit. We. I think the people we criticize the most on reality tv, if we're really honest with ourselves, are the people that remind us most of ourselves, or at least the people who we've dated, you know?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And it's a lot easier to go on, watch tv, turn off our brains, and judge a bunch of crazy people who went on tv. But we're. We're just. We're just judging ourselves.

[Brooke]

Yeah, we're doing that. In replacement of actually taking the time to judge myself. I need to be judged by myself. You know what I mean? Like, I need to be kind to yourself.

[Nick]

But, you know, it's just more holding yourself accountable and, and ha. And increasing the expectations that you have for yourself and, and finding, you know, more. More expectations. I mean, I. The more, you know, more and more we are using boundaries as an excuse to. To not expand our comfort zones.

[Brooke]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, it's like, oh, this is my boundary. I can't do that. And, and when we say the word boundary, it feels very justified. We're all just like. And we're just kind of justifying our stubbornness, our poor decisions. And it's all under the framework of, well, it's my boundary. Yeah, boundaries are good, but, like, at first we need to have. What are our expectations of ourselves? Where do I want to go? And what actual boundaries are going to help me get there. The boundaries can be used to limit ourselves. You know, there should be guardrails to keep us stuck. You know, you think of a boundary, a boundary. What is a boundary? It's a blockade. You know, it's. Well, if we're stuck sometimes we could set up a bunch of boundaries that don't allow us to get out of the position that we're in.

[Brooke]

Yeah, I need to be. I need to, yeah. Hold myself accountable and just work on myself. Stop worrying about other things and put responsibility on myself to make good decisions because people aren't going to make those decisions for me. I need to set myself up.

[Nick]

Don't. But just do it with a healthy and positive point of view about yourself. You've made some mistakes. You haven't been perfect. No one is. But the reason why it should frustrate you is because you know you deserve more. And you know that you haven't been loving and treating yourself with the respect that you deserve and you really want someone to love you in a certain way, you gotta love yourself first that way. I know it sounds, like, very guru and corny, but it's true, you know, like, you just do.

[Brooke]

Okay.

[Nick]

All right.

[Brooke]

Got some work to do. I'll get to that right now.

[Nick]

Okay, take care.

[Brooke]

Thank you, Nick.

[Michelle]

All right.

[Nick]

Bye.

[Michelle]

Bye.

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[Michelle]

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[Michelle]

Hey, Nick. My name is Michelle. I am 29 and me and my best friend fell in love and he ghosted me. And I am just trying to figure out how to process that and move on.

[Nick]

Okay, so tell me about this best friend who is now since ghosted. You still haven't heard from him?

[Michelle]

Still haven't heard from. And I wrote in about two months ago, so. Still have not. Well, probably about a week after the ghosting started. And yeah, it's been about two months total. So yeah.

[Nick]

Do you know where he is? Is he alive?

[Michelle]

I do, I do. We have mutual friends. I did have. We shared locations. I was the one who took that away after a few weeks of not hearing because it was just obviously I, I was checking it, I didn't need to do it. It wasn't good for my brain. So. But I knew for the few weeks after that.

[Nick]

All right, so tell me the story. Tell me the story.

[Michelle]

Yeah, so I'll try to. Obviously I know all these stories are long. I'll try to condense it as much as I can. But we've known each other for several years. We had mutual friends from college. Actually, like my very best friend and somebody else I knew from a long time. They went to separate colleges, came back, we became one, one big friend group. And so we were a friend group for several years. Just very, very surface level friends. I had been in a relationship at one point during it. He had been in a relationship during one point during it. But our group did spend a good bit of time together. And then about two years ago was when both of us were single at the same time. Our little friend group went to a trip that was just allowed us all to spend a lot of time together. And I feel like that was when his and I individual friendship really began to, you know, blossom. Flourish. Right, to blossom. And trust me, I've I've been a fan for a long time. Listen to this podcast for years. I know friendships really don't exist when once one thing even just I think male, female, single friendships, like there's always some.

[Nick]

There's always a dynamic.

[Michelle]

Yeah, right. So but from there, I mean, that was when our individual friendship, I feel like started, continued

[Nick]

in one of this friendship. Like how, I guess how did you guys show up for each other as friends?

[Michelle]

Yeah, good question. I mean it was a lot more of just our communication became a lot, lot stronger. But it was still like I was dating, asking for advice. He was maybe dating. Not necessarily like asking for advice, but it was.

[Nick]

We were aware of sharing stories.

[Michelle]

Sharing stories. We had things in common, activities, hobbies in common that we would do. I should note though, I do live in a different state at this point as the rest of this friend group. So this was a, like a long distance friendship with all of them. But I had been, you know, good friends with them for a long time before.

[Nick]

But then you, you and him started like, like facetiming and talking and.

[Michelle]

Yeah, more so just texting and like, you know, appropriate friend things. I wouldn't say just like facetiming out of the gate after this trip. Like just appropriate level of keeping in touch and whatnot. But he had a plan to potentially move to the city that I am in, totally unrelated to me. But then, so about a year ago now, him and our two other friends came to visit for like, let's make a trip of it. Come see the city. And that was when I think, think things begin to maybe push into more of a is this going to be potentially more than friends type of thing. You know, we had a night out, we had fun, a kiss was exchanged. And then from there I think we had a lull of like, nobody know, we don't know what's going on.

[Nick]

You guys kissed?

[Michelle]

We did kiss that night. This is about a year after the individual friendship.

[Nick]

Were you drinking? Was it.

[Michelle]

There was some drinking involved, yes.

[Nick]

Was it like, was it sloppy? Was it a moment? Like, you just can't.

[Michelle]

I feel like it was. I think it was a moment because I do think that in the back of both of our heads, the thought

[Nick]

had always been, let's not guess his feelings, but I would love to know how you felt.

[Michelle]

I remember going into that night thinking, if I want something to happen, something's going to happen. And so it wasn't like a full surprise and it was like, so at

[Nick]

this stage, sorry for interrupting. You were probably feeling, you felt like you had a little power here.

[Michelle]

I would say so. Which is gonna play into probably the whole thing. And I'm transparently have some nerves of this because I know it's anonymous and whatnot, but there's. And you'll see how just like I know all my friends are literally like, you need to go on because. And you need to hear this from Nick. You need to hear this all from somebody else. Like he's ghosted you at. It's so wrong. There's nothing to fix. But in my head I'm still afraid of like, is this going to make things worse? You know what I mean? So I'm definitely.

[Nick]

I feel like you're afraid of him finding out about this.

[Michelle]

Yeah. Just in general, I think that's.

[Nick]

And by making it worse.

[Michelle]

Exactly. I mean, what is there to make worse?

[Jane]

Exactly.

[Michelle]

Exactly.

[Brooke]

I know.

[Michelle]

And that's the problem is I've probably put. I've cared too much about his feelings on the back end of all of this because I. I have. I see where I made, I think a lot of mistakes. And so it's. I feel like I'm just. I am a self accountable person to a fault sometimes where like, it's like, what could I have done better? Anyway, back to that. The whole kind of the story side of things. We then had a little bit of a lull there where it was like, well, what. What's. We. We didn't really talk about it, but I think our talking turned more toward flirting. We had another group trip coming up that I think we were just both really looking forward to of. Like, like, what's his energy gonna be like, I don't know how he's coming in. I don't. I didn't know if he thought this is just a fun little thing whatnot. But then we ended up having that trip. It was great. He immediately came to help me move apartments in my city the next. Literally the next week. And we just.

[Nick]

This is after the makeout. Well, was it a kiss or is it a makeout or like was there heavy petting there?

[Michelle]

There it was. We were all staying in my apartment, all four of us. So. And. And he had.

[Nick]

It wasn't an orgy. No, no, no, no, no.

[Michelle]

Just saying. We were all staying in my apartment. Like my. My best friend and her husband were in the guest room. He'd been on the couch the whole time. He did not sleep in the couch that night, however, did not go any further than that.

[Nick]

Okay, so no. He slept in your bed.

[Michelle]

He slept in my bed.

[Nick]

But you made out for a bit.

[Michelle]

Only kissing.

[Nick]

Okay, so that's. That's definitely more than a kiss.

[Michelle]

Correct.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Michelle]

All right, so timeline, though. That was last spring, so about a year ago. Then summer is when we go on this group trip, and, like, I see him again. And then from there, it was just like.

[Nick]

Wait, wait. I'm sorry. I'm just. You didn't see him for a whole year?

[Michelle]

I don't live in that city. Not a year. This is like spring to summer.

[Nick]

Okay. A few months.

[Brooke]

March.

[Michelle]

March to June.

[Nick]

But after the. After the night of passion, what was the communication like with him?

[Michelle]

So they were all flying home the next day, but it was like that actual day in person was totally fine. And then from there, we. We just technically continued our, like. Like, texting friendship. I think it got a little bit more talking probably every other.

[Nick]

Sorry. I'm sorry for interrupting. I just, like, how did you feel the next morning, like, when you woke up and he's next to you lying in bed? Were your clothes on?

[Michelle]

Yes.

[Nick]

Okay. And what was. I mean, I don't know. You talked to this guy, your best friend? We'll get to that. I want to challenge best friend in a moment, but this obviously was a moment. I mean, if I've had moments like this, it's hard to sleep. You're just, like, kind of excited, you know? Did you get much sleep? You know?

[Michelle]

Yeah. Yeah, I. So I think at first I was like, it's hard to put myself back in that. But I think at first I was just like, oh, my gosh. Well, like, yeah, that happened. And then I definitely. I feel like it's less about how I felt that exact day and then more the next few months leading up, knowing we had this trip. Trip coming up together where I felt.

[Nick]

So you guys essentially just kind of just almost pretended it didn't happen in a way.

[Michelle]

I wouldn't say pretended. It kind of. I mean, yeah, kind of like our. Our communication didn't get weird. Like, in fact, it picked up. It maybe got a little bit more flirtier, but I don't think we, like, acknowledged it until getting a lot closer to that trip. And that's when I. We kind of. I think we're trying to fig. Feel out each other of, like, are we on the same page? Of, like. Like, did we like, that that happened? Are we, like, wanting something like that to happen again on this trip? And, like, so then I went into the trip honestly pretty giddy and really, like, there was a point where he almost wasn't gonna Go on the trip for other reasons. And I realized how much I honestly wouldn't have wanted to go if he wasn't going. And so. But I still went into it not knowing, like, as much as. Again, we were friends. We were pretty surface level friends. So I didn't have a good view of. Is he really even looking for a relationship? Does he just look at this as a fun hookup thing, whatever? But it was immediately clear on the trip then that he was very interested in me in a more of a. Like, in a potential relationship way. Just, I mean, well, we pretty much. I. I'm a very straightforward person. So, like, once, the first time that we kind of, like, kissed on that trip happened, I pretty much was like, all right, what is this? You know, what is this to you?

[Nick]

So you guys go on the trip, and you guys. You. You make out pretty quickly.

[Michelle]

I should. This is. Okay. It was a music festival.

[Brooke]

Okay.

[Michelle]

So we're spending three, you know, three or four days. It's all camping together, drinks and, you know. But it. Yeah. So it was just pretty clear after that. And again, we like, the benefit of having. Being comfortable with somebody is that it's just easier to have some of those conversations. So I just knew quickly as us talking about it that this was. He'd been interested in me for a while, Kind of was wondering where I was at as well. And I was moving apartments the very next week in the city that I live in. He offered to come and help, and he did. And I remember being very nervous for that because that's when I still was like, yes, I'm, like, giddy, and I like him, but he's. There was just so much unsureness of, I think, assumptions I'd made around him. Not my typical type of. And then. And that just kind of spirals into, like, pretty much the entire story of what happened is we ended up seeing each other for a few months. I never let it become officially boyfriend and girlfriend because I continued to just have so many hesitancies.

[Nick]

So you go to the festival, you have a great weekend, there's some making out, you guys have a conversation, and you mutually agree to stop being just friends and start exploring a romantic relationship. And you dated, whatever that means in 2026.

[Michelle]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

And I guess at that point then you started almost, like, realizing that you don't know him as well as you maybe felt like you did.

[Michelle]

I think that me and one of my girlfriends had made a lot of. And have said this to him, like, made a lot of assumptions based on watching how he was too and in a past relationship that he was in for a long time during our entire friend group. However, again, a lot of assumptions on that that again, I quickly brought up. And I feel like I was proved very wrong in a positive way of just. Yeah. That we were wrong. Like, again, I didn't. We're surface level friends. And the more I got to know him on my own individual friendship, like, I really began to see this is one of the best guys I feel like I've ever known and really cares and things just made sense of what I had maybe assumed and why I had assumed before. And I know I tend to do that as well. So I was just. I mean, from a person, from a who he was standpoint was beginning to see a lot of the green flags. Learning more about him too and like things, you know, obviously what makes him

[Nick]

who he is and what were some of those green flags that you liked or observed?

[Michelle]

He has always put like his friends. I don't want to say first because he's not. I don't. He's not a people pleaser, which I also think is a green fag and appreciate. I've dealt with those. And I, to be honest, in my, like, last one that was kind of the case is a people pleaser and what people think and that's where I lose respect for them and I have a hard time with that. But this person, like, he knew who he was. He's always going to stand his ground. I don't feel like in any ways he was ever trying to be anyone for anything or anything for anyone. He was who he was, but at the same time, like just a core thing of who he was is he. He cared about his people and wanted to always just do things for them and take care of them. So I think those were big things that really were different from a past relationship I had been in. I think that's the biggest one that state sticks out to me.

[Nick]

Okay. Probably because you didn't have it before.

[Michelle]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Michelle]

Just very much the dichotomy because. And I mean, another theme that might just come into play in this is just always questioning things, especially. I don't know, just there was other things like. And I've said all of this, like there were my other maybe, I guess maybe like red flags or things I wasn't sure about or maybe like ambition or. I don't know. But I knew I respected him and that was different than something I had prior. And I feel like that really came from the fact that he was who he was.

[Nick]

Sure.

[Brooke]

Okay.

[Michelle]

Anyway.

[Nick]

So then what happened?

[Michelle]

Yeah, so we pick up of. Basically we just get into a few months of kind of dating, seeing. But I just continue to have questions.

[Nick]

Still long distance.

[Michelle]

Still long distance. But we did a pretty good job. I mean, I'd say we were seeing each other every. I don't think we didn't go more than three weeks.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Michelle]

Because he lives in where I'm from, my parents. And it was. It was pretty easy and we did

[Nick]

a really great job. So when you said you still had questions, what do you mean about like. About what?

[Michelle]

Okay. I think this goes back to just the fact of, like the spark and this, like, when you know, you're so. You so know type of thing. And like, this you can't. Attraction and blah, blah, blah. And I've. I think there was just like. I couldn't help but kept feeling like something was maybe missing. Hi, Riv.

[Nick]

I'm sorry. My daughter.

[Michelle]

Hi, River. Hi. Is that this Jeff or Steve?

[Nick]

That's Jeff. That's Steve.

[Michelle]

Oh, there's Steve.

[Nick]

Hey, love you. Bye. Bye. I apologize.

[Michelle]

No worries at all. Okay. Anyway, so, yeah, just. I think this kind of always questioning, which I am worried. And one thing I figured, because this problem itself is inherently like, one thing I. Maybe I can get out of this call is just understanding more about, like, how the heck am I never going to always question everything? Because this is, you know, my friends is going to say is. My problem is I'm going to be an overthinker. Overanalyze, like, question every little thing. And I don't know how to trust my gut. Because in the past, you know, classic story, but a lot of the. When you get those. When you do feel excited, it's. It's off of the wrong things. And I totally. I know that I've worked through a lot of that, so I was really trying to also, like, give this time. And to be honest, there were two different callers you had at two different episodes that really, at the end for me of this little situation confirmed for me. I think that I'm making a mistake, like, not being with him, which I'm fast forwarding here because obviously I'm noting that, like, I ended things a couple times within this, which I guess. Yeah. Sorry.

[Nick]

Do me a favor.

[Michelle]

So much has happened.

[Nick]

Do me a favor. Just take a breath. I want you to slow down a little bit.

[Michelle]

Okay.

[Nick]

Yeah. Take a breath. Take a big breath. Rewind. You're dating, you're having questions. You're not sure about sparks, things like that. Passion. Meanwhile, you, outside of your overthinking things, are progressing in a pretty good way other than you are overthinking.

[Michelle]

Yeah, I would say so. I mean.

[Nick]

And then you say you'd try to end it a couple times.

[Michelle]

Yeah. So the first weekend that he came to visit, I felt like a few days in, I was just like, I don't know. I'm just not feeling it. And then. And then we had. We. He was here for a few days. It was all me moving.

[Nick]

You said that to him?

[Michelle]

I did. I'm always very, very transparent. To a fault.

[Nick]

What was his reaction?

[Michelle]

I think this was. This was the two days before he was leaving. And I was like, I'm just not like, how are you feeling? Like, I'm just. I'm not sure. And this was, again, the first time he came after. We were really like, let's see here. Let's try this. And he was like, I mean, I'm really, like, enjoying it, but. And feeling good. But, like, you know, I. It was kind of a conversation of. I was just bringing awareness of how I was feeling. I wasn't necessarily doing anything with it yet. And we still had. Our next night was like, the first real date night we've ever had.

[Nick]

Again, the day before the first date, you're like, I don't know if I like you. Yeah.

[Michelle]

Which. We've already spent four days together here, moving my apartment, whatever. But obviously he's here on a flight, so, like. But we go. And it was so good. Like, I feel like the conversation was so good. I learned so much about him. He was really, really, like, showing me how he felt about me, you know, had some, like, acts of service that, like, I wasn't expecting, you know, drew a bubble bath at home. All this stuff, like, very sweet. And I just. Then I left that, like, okay. Actually, you know what? I do want to explore this. So that's kind of how it continued for the next couple months. I just. I was. I liked him a lot, but there was just something that I was just like, why am I not so ready to be boyfriend and girlfriend?

[Nick]

And, like, what does boyfriend and girlfriend mean to you?

[Michelle]

I mean, it doesn't mean anything. I think it's stupid.

[Nick]

Oh, no, it did, though. I mean, I. I'm just. Yeah. You had a feeling.

[Michelle]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nick]

Things are going well. You're questioning your feelings. He's. I mean, credit to him in this moment because, like, you know, not to. We've lowered our, I think, expectations of men these days. But, you know, I feel like a lot of guys would. Would probably respond very poorly.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

To putting in a lot of effort pursuing someone and then having that person be like, I don't know, there's something about you I'm not into. And. And his response was to not overreact. And. And to your point, conf. You know, have confidence in himself to still, you know, pursue you and go for what he wanted.

[Michelle]

Like, there'll be a lot of those of just me learning his. Wow. His like, emotional level maturity is so great. Like, I can't believe he's still able to communicate through these things, et cetera, et cetera, which is why the ultimate ending has just completely surprised me.

[Nick]

But so then you. You try to break up with them again.

[Michelle]

So there a couple months go by. I actually honestly was ready for us to be, you know, boyfriend and girlfriend, but it was around the time my birthday. And it sounds so stupid, but I was like, I don't want our anniversary to be on my birthday. So we'll just wait a little bit longer for the boyfriend, girlfriend. And then ultimately like that trip, for some reason, it's just every. And I'll say this too, every time he came here, I struggled. Every time I was there, I really didn't. And I think that has a lot to do with. I'm in a city that is a lot of just like overachiever. Like, it's a bubble. It is a lot easy to compare. I have a friend group that are. They're awesome, but it's all entrepreneurs who like, do super well. And like, I think that I just get into this kind of comparison mode of, like, is there more for me? And I don't even just mean in him as a partner. He is one of the best people I feel like I've ever met. And. But it's more of the life that I feel like it represented of me potentially having, which gets into like, my. Probably the things I need to work through. Like, I don't know, just what I'm. What I'm afraid of the future looking like and whatnot. So long story short, before we get into all that, like, yes, I did end up ending it at one point. And then I was going back to my hometown anyway, actually, for his birthday, I had already bought plane tickets and something. And I said, do you want me to come? I won't come if you don't want to. And he's like, no, come. Like, it's still our friends. We're still friends. Because he was very much like, no, Matter what. No matter what. Even from the very beginning, even when we had this first breakup conversation, we will always be best friends. From his point of view, we will always be best friends.

[Nick]

You guys are calling each other best friends?

[Michelle]

Yes. And trust me, I even tried to have the conversation. Like, we're not. Some things will change. It was always from his point of view. No matter what, you are my best friend, and we will always stay best friends. Like, even when I'm having this first ending conversation, which he did say down the road, like, broke his heart. He is, like, in the moment saying, it's okay. Like, you're still my best friend. It's all good. So went back for that birthday thing. Ended up me being like, oh, my gosh, I'm dumb. You're amazing. We should continue and try again. So we do. And then same thing. Same thing happens. Just he comes to visit. It just. I don't know why, So I end it. And so that's pretty much, like, how the romantic side had ended. But same thing. Stayed best friends.

[Brooke]

And then.

[Michelle]

And when I say stay best friends, like, which I know this is not, but, like, same level of communication, same texting, same still FaceTiming long distance and watching our TV shows. Like, the only thing that changed is not saying, babe, no flirting, like, but the emotional.

[Nick]

You know, at this point, you guys have had, like, hooked up and had sex.

[Michelle]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nick]

So at what point did you listen to these episodes?

[Michelle]

So I listened to these episodes after the, like, ending. Second ending. So we're like, only friends. And they were two different episodes, but kind of similar. One was a girl who had moved. Moved for her boyfriend and then didn't, like, the town or something. Moved back. And she was just talking very much about how, like, he's kind of like, he's just a nice guy. Like, he's just a nice guy. I don't know. And just what you were saying and what she. And listening to her, I was like, this is how I sound. And she's annoying me because this is like, I. It's just I'm looking at the wrong things. Like, I'm looking at the wrong things. And it was just, like, hearing it from a different point of view. Hearing myself talk was just, like, making me realize. Yeah, that. And then there was another one that was a little bit more recent, and she. You were just kind of talking about, like, you're always looking for the. Kind of. The drama or something to be wrong. And it was like, somebody where. Yeah, she had a good relationship. There was really nothing she could say wrong with it. And it was. Again, it's like, same thing. And I just feel like that's always going to be my problem. And it just made me recognize, like, these things about him that make me feel safe, like, my Is my best friend. Like. Like, why am I. Why am I looking at these other things? Like, I just. I feel like I have people around me here, some people around me here that, you know, the guys, they make a lot of money, they're super successful, they're whatever. And I remember one night, and this was the night it actually flipped for me, where I was like, I want to be with this guy. So I was out with all these friends, and I was just looking at these guys, and I was like, you guys are so unhappy. You. You're. You make so much money. You do all this, but you guys are so unhappy, and I do not want this life. And. Yeah.

[Jane]

Yeah.

[Michelle]

So that's.

[Nick]

So at what point did he ghost you?

[Michelle]

So, again, we're still, like, friends during all this time. And then to not add too much confusion to the timeline. So over. This was like Thanksgiving. I was home for break again. We had been just friends. Like, the last time things had ended were in October at this point. But we spent some time together to play our sports activities, and it just. We just kind of like. Like, fell into each other again. And that was at the point, too, where I decided, like, I do want. I do want this. And we said, all right, we'll kind of talk about this a little bit more. We'll see each other again over Christmas. Now, the whole caveat to this was he was potentially the reason he was potentially moving here, or he was potentially moving here again way before all this started outside of me. And that was always the plan until he got a job promotion that then told him he could not move. And he was fighting on that because he still, again, wanted to move here regardless of me. And we found out after this Thanksgiving, little T.R. trist. Whatever, and before I go home for Christmas, that they said he was not allowed to move here. And I feel like that's where everything flipped all of a sudden. Like, he. Like, we went a week where it was just kind of spotty talking, and then he just went dark one night on me. Didn't talk to me for, like, four days. Then did reach out, apologized. I thought we were good. I thought. I thought the door was even open, the way he was saying of, like, let's just. Just see. I mean, even on that call, he was like, no matter what, we're always going to be best friends. And. And then saw him over break a little bit. We had some hard conversations, but about. And he was just emphasized like, I'm just not, I just can't like go into this right now, but I want us to stay friends and just see if it kind of comes back. And he was like, let's watch our show when we get home. When you get home. Because we used to like FaceTime and Watch Show. And he was like, you fly home tomorrow. Okay, great, let's watch tomorrow. I get home, text him, nothing. And then like five days later, it's New Year's Eve. I get a text from him on New Year's Eve being like, sorry, work's been so busy, been slammed. Like, let's watch our show this weekend. Which I know he only texted me because he was with our friends and like my best friend probably brought up to him like, why the hell are you not communicating with her? And then I was like, okay, no worries. Like, yeah, let's do it. And then since then, nothing. And I've obviously reached out a couple times, but

[Nick]

so when. Yeah. And so at any point were you like, yo, are you alive? Or I.

[Michelle]

So I mean my last message to that we sent for like the watching the show or whatever. I was like, oh, no problem. Like, hope you had fun years New Year's Eve. And he's like, I did. How was yours? And then I said, do you want to actually watch tonight? And he was like, I can't. And I said, no worries. That was it. And then the next day I needed help with something that he's always helped me with before via FaceTime. And I just asked quickly, like a little easy favor, like, hey, can you. I'll help me with this. I need it for tomorrow. Didn't answer. Tried to FaceTime later that night, didn't answer. And then a couple days later I did send a text just kind of saying like, hey, I'm trying to meet you where you're at. You said you wanted to be friends. I, you know, it's something that was. Worked really well, but just basically was like, if you need space, if we need space, that's okay. I just hope like with everything we can respectfully communicate that with each other. And nothing. And so that's the last thing I had sent again. I know he was alive because like I can see him on, I could see him on my friends. I've seen some stuff on social media, but that has been it. And our other. My two best friends have not seen him either. We're in all. We're all in a big group message that he's not super active in, but, like, hasn't said one thing since.

[Nick]

So he's kind of disappeared on the group.

[Michelle]

He's disappeared as far as I know, though. And it's hard because we're all a little bit older. They're all, like, out there, and how old is it? We're all 29. Okay. And they're all, like, kind of moved out into the suburbs and stuff, too, so it's not like everyone was getting together as much anyway. But, like, yeah, it's been really nothing that I've heard of. And the last big update that I'll say just to give all the information is that I ended up sending a handwritten letter last week, more for myself, but just because a lot of this has been me being angry at myself for everything that kind of happened in between. And, like, why did I have to just question everything and not know and whatnot? And so a lot of, like, apologizing for that, but also, you know, saying it's wrong how he's going about this, but forgiving him for it, too, and just really saying, like, the only point of this letter is, like, I would just really love clarity and. But there's no. I'm not expecting us to be anything. I'm not expecting, you know, no pressure. Obviously. Haven't gotten an answer. He doesn't check his mail frequently. I know that. So. But that's where we're at.

[Nick]

Possible he met somebody for sure.

[Michelle]

I mean, I don't. I don't think he had met somebody, but at the ghosting time. But at this point, I definitely. I mean, for sure.

[Nick]

Why not?

[Michelle]

Just because given where, like, I mean, look, a lot of this has made me question things, but, like, who? I know him as a person. I don't think something would have happened with us over Thanksgiving and. And Christmas. And then even when we did talk over, like, Christmas break, I even kind of said, like, I'm afraid of you, you know, meeting somebody else before you're open. Because he was just very much like, I am so not okay to be open to anything. Like, I need to work on myself. And he, like, kind of laughed, which I know means nothing.

[Nick]

Ultimately, you guys are, like, making out and stuff over Christmas and stuff.

[Michelle]

It was so sorry. There's so many details.

[Jane]

It's hard.

[Michelle]

I did. The first night of break, I stayed over there kind of on accident because my parents are a little bit far away from downtown, and all of us Were down after football game, alcohol was involved. I had gotten picked up by the. At the airport. So I had no car. And it was pretty much like, tan, you can stay here. And he was the one that very much came in that night and started to kiss me. And I literally stopped it and go, does this change, like, the fact that you said you're not ready for anything or don't want this? And he was like, no. So I. We got into a whole conversation that night about. And I mean, just things I've left out. And like, very much a hundred percent, he was hurt by the whole thing. And like, that was finally expressed kind of in that of, you know, he was very afraid that I'll just do the same thing. There was a comment made of, like, I know how this goes. You're just gonna change your mind again in three weeks. But, like, I don't feel like the fact that I would've just even been there spending the night if he was seeing somebody before all this, very possible. At this point. He is for sure.

[Nick]

Well, most likely it's not like a. One day he wasn't with anyone, the next day he was in a committed relationship. Yeah, you know, it's 2026. I keep saying that, but like, you know, the lines of. Of exclusivity are so blurred these days.

[Michelle]

Right.

[Nick]

So that. Yeah, it's possible that he, like, had met someone, you know, did, you know, maybe on a nap or out. Maybe didn't even think much of it. Because that's like, the one thing, you know, while you're talking my. In my back of my mad. I'm like, he probably met someone. You know, like, you're, you know, well, yo, what is. Is it octon's razor or some. The simplest explanation is usually the right one. And so, like, what's changed? Nothing's changed. You know, he's been consistent with his communication. What would be the one thing that would make it really hard for him to continue communicating with you in the way that you guys always did, which is there's another person in the equation that he is pursuing and liking and feeling some of the same things maybe he felt with you. Doesn't know how to tell you that. And then, you know, you know, how things happen, it just kind of happens fast. And he wakes up, but he's like, well, now I'm kind of responsible for this other. Other person's feelings as well. Is being responsible for yours. And not necessarily responsible, but like, in the sense that, like, you know, you. You. You establish emotional connection with Someone friend or you know, someone you're dating, you realize this person is counting on you for emotional support. You know, things like that. And you know, it would make sense that it's hard. Hard to. Hard to do. You know, know doesn't make it okay. But I wonder if that's possible. And since no none of your friends have. He's kind of disappeared from the friend group as well. Wouldn't maybe make sense that he's. His time is maybe involved in investing in someone.

[Michelle]

Yeah, I mean it is definitely possible, I suppose especially because I the way. And this is where now I reflect on things of the beginning where I'm like maybe a little in my assumption emotions were kind of right. Like he was seeing somebody the first time we hooked up. Now the way he phrased it to me was very different than I am learning that it was presented to others and her. But I feel like.

[Nick]

Wait, wait, wait, what was that? Say that again. What?

[Michelle]

So like when he. They came to visit, you know, two years ago at this point, the first time like anything ever happened and like he had been seeing somebody. He probably wouldn't phrase it that way, but he had been talking. Well he told me it was pretty much just like just hooking up, like nothing at all. And come to find out, like even my best friend was like I thought they were dating like boyfriend and girlfriend. The way that he talked to her the way that like. So that's not how he presents it to me because I think he liked me and would have picked me and like wanted that opportunity. But now anyway, so all honestly I. It's for sure possible I think think where the only reason I'm like it's hard is just because we were even as just friends. We were. I knew where he was pretty much every night with like his kind of hobby. Find my friends or we were literally face timing watching our TV show. So I'm just like, I don't know when you would have but. But it's. Who knows? It's possible I live in a different

[Nick]

state and so you wrote this letter a week ago. He ghosted you what, in early January,

[Michelle]

Last I heard was January 1st.

[Brooke]

Okay.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Brooke]

Yep.

[Nick]

And so you're all, you know, you're. What do you want? Like, what can I help you with?

[Michelle]

Yeah, well, originally when I wrote in it was kind of like, can this still be? Because I figured he was going to pop back in since this was like now the third, fourth time he went dark. And every time he had. We had. We had been so much like we Will always communicate. This will never. You know, I just. I couldn't believe that this happened. Especially given up until this point, I'd always said, all my friends, friends, this is the best communicator I've ever been with. This is the most emotionally mature person I've ever been with. Now I recognize, I think, like, there's a difference between emotionally mature and being able to have her conversations and just like, compartmentalizing them and then them blowing up later. But I think now it's just like a. How do I move on? And I know it's just time, and I know it's like, it's really not my ego. I think it's more so my just trust and I mean, I guess hurt. Your ego? Yeah.

[Nick]

You have a little regret.

[Michelle]

I have regret. I have. It's not like my ego in terms of, like, how could you. Like, what's wrong with me? It's like, I'm. I'm just hurt. Like, I don't understand how. Yeah. It went from what it was and all those things were said and to this and how to just kind of, like, move on. Because it's obviously gotten a lot easier, but still, like, yesterday was just a random day where I'm just like, what? What the hell? And then also I think it just. It makes me worry that I'm gonna have a hard time dating because was this somebody that was really it. And I just overanalyzed and looked at the wrong things. And, like, at what point will I just. No. And yeah, it's just I've had a very hard time dating. I mean, yeah. As everyone has very.

[Nick]

I mean, I think everything. Your experience is very relatable. I mean, I think in terms of helping you move forward, a couple things you need to just try to do or start doing or stop doing or whatever. He's not your best friend. He was never your best friend. You guys had a close relationship.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So, like, you just one. You have to. You have to change your narratives that you're replaying in your head. So right now it's just feeling very heavy because in your mind, you're like. Like, I lost my best friend. You know, you're. You're. You're making it worse by being. First of all, like, you're questioning yourself, why do I do this? Why do I second guess myself? I lost out on this guy I really like. I. Then I also lost my best friend. It's just like. No, you. It's just the one thing. You. You've lost this very meaningful relationship. A relationship that over the course of this past year or whatever the timeline is like was your go to guy, you know, and played the role of your boyfriend, as we, you know, you've heard me talk about on the show is like these kind of heterosexual friendships where there's these like, do I have feelings, do I not have feelings? Or even when I was very single, you know, I had a lot of women friends. Some of them were just straight up platonic relationships, you know, especially from my point of view. But there's just always someone in that equation who is wondering if there's more or not. And then, but again, when you are single and you are a heterosexual person with friends of the opposite sex, even if it's just strictly platonic, they're playing the boyfriend girlfriend roles. And then for me, I probably had a handful of girlfriends that, minus the physical aspect, we're playing that emo, the emotional support that a partner offers. I was getting it from my women friends, you know, going out to dinner, let's grab a coffee, coffee, late night chats in the middle of the night about whatever. And even if you're talking about your dating experiences, it's just like just having that person listen and that comfort, that safety, that security blanket, you know, know. And you lost that with this person and that's sad, you know, that makes you really sad. And that's normal. But what you have to stop doing is romanticizing. You're. No, no doubt you're romanticizing it in ways that you weren't romanticizing it when you were questioning yourself. Right. You know, when you're questioning the relationship. And I think this is something to just be mindful of. Like it's, it's normal and it's human. And you know, you don't have to start, you don't have to keep asking why you know about that. And then another thing you really have to try to stop doing is replaying the various conversations you've had with him, specifically what he said to you. He said this, but he said that. And that doesn't really make sense. And why would he say that? And you know, it's like we say things in the moment, we try things out. You, they've acknowledged that you have said things to him and then backtracked a little bit. You know, there were certainly no doubt times where he was probably confused. Be like, I don't, I mean, she said this last week and this week she's like not doing it, you know. And you know, when people say things to us, it's like Written in stone. You know, it's like, well, if you, if you take me seriously, you can't, you can't say that to me and not mean it. You can't say that to me and not be 100 sure. You, you don't get to say this to me and take it.

[Michelle]

Right.

[Nick]

And we have these kind of different expectations of how people treat us versus, I mean, how we treat people. Because when we're on the side of our confusion and uncertainty, we have those built in excuses. We give ourselves more grace about our uncertainty. And it's like, well, yeah, I mean, I said that, but I wasn't thinking about this and this new insecurity popped in my head and things like that. So.

[Michelle]

So

[Nick]

to help yourself get over it, it's just the rumination of questioning yourself because then you get into the weeds of. And it becomes very confusing and then you're reliving that relationship back in your mind. And again, this is so fresh and so new for you. So you're kind of in this stage of. And you miss him and you don't have him in your life. So a lot of the times that you would probably call him, the shows you would watch together, you are, you are enjoying in a way you are preserving that relationship by, by missing him, you know, by romanticizing, by ruminating and things like that. Normal. It's again, still fresh, but you just have to try to stop doing that. Yeah, you know, that's, that's a big thing.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, and yeah, I mean, like, it as far as like going, you know, if he, there's a good chance he met someone, it just, it's just, it's not because he's so busy at work.

[Michelle]

No, for sure. And that's what he kept, he kept saying at like at work, like he'd see my friend. Which it's just ironic because every time he'd see her, he's the one that brings it up to her, brings up the situation, whatever. And like, you know, brought it up to her at New Year's and was like, yeah, we had a really great conversation before. And she's like, well, she said you guys are her. Hasn't heard from her in three days. Like, and that's when I hear from him, you know, but he, yeah, I don't know. He, he brings it up. He. Every time. He's like, well, yeah, it's just because I've been so slammed at work. I've been so slammed at work and it was this new job and whatever and I feel like, in my gut, like, I don't think he had met somebody up until the point of him ghosting. Could be wrong.

[Nick]

But I mean, I mean, who knows? Maybe he didn't mean anyone. But it's definitely a possibility.

[Michelle]

Definitely possibility at this. At point. This. This point for sure that there's. Could be something.

[Nick]

Well, the fact that you are. I don't know how to say this, but you are. It doesn't. You're like, well, is it possible he met this per. You are, you're. You in a way are trying to protect him, I guess, and his. And what you think of him. Because it's just like, well, if he met someone at this point, then it would be really fucked up about what he said to me or what we did.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And then I would have to think differently of him or be more mad or whatever. And I. And then also I'd feel stupid and I would feel played a little bit or lied to. And so, you know, you're protecting both yourself and your ego and how you think of him by, you know, like, Well, I don't know if it's like, I'm like, I think he met someone. And you're like, maybe, but like, it really matters to me if he did meet someone when he met them and when he started talking to them.

[Michelle]

No, you're not wrong because I do think, like, this was somebody who from the beginning I. I said to all my friends and a reason why I feel like I. Even not the reason I questioned it, but I was like, this just feels so safe. Like, I had never had anything before where I wasn't like, kind of anxiously triggered, like, anxious. And my anxious attachment was zero. Like, I felt so, so good. And so, I mean, I think to your point, like, if that all those things about him that I thought were true begin to become not true in that scenario. It kind of feels like it nullifies.

[Nick]

Let me ask you this. Your letter, did it really put everything on the table?

[Michelle]

I. I think it did. I'm actually very proud of it. There's literally nothing else I could have put. I mean, it was me apologizing. It was me being mad at him. It was me forgiving him. It was me because I think to. And this is where some of my friends were like, nick, Nick will be good for you. He will tell you to stop. Like, I have still thought, like, oh, is there something in like the last text I sent that could potentially have made it seem like I was saying I didn't want to hear from him or like trying to find a million excuses this why he. Or then I'm like, well maybe he was ghosting me, which is wrong but he was planning to reach out in like a month and then goes and sees that I unshared my location and thinks it's because I'm mad. And it's like, no, I just need it for my mental health or whatever. So I was like making up all these justifications of. And so the letter to me was like, I'm not. I mean I am mad, but I'm not mad. You know, like just every telling him like I did. I miss him. I wanted clarity.

[Nick]

Like how much of that letter was a reflection of your back and forth?

[Michelle]

I'd say like at least it was a two page full from letter of notebook. I'd say probably 25% of it was. I mean I. Yeah a good bit apologizing for that and why I felt that way. But why not just.

[Nick]

And did you still shoot your shot in this letter?

[Michelle]

No. I said at the end, you know, I don't expect us to be like I said you could be seeing somebody. I don't even if you'd want to be friends. I think that you know the action. Show me the case with that. There's no pressure from this letter. That was a big thing. I'm going to highlight it because I think that he shut down previously because of the pressure. I just said all I am looking for is like. And the only thing you could help me with is clarity or closure. And if I don't hear like. I hear that too. So.

[Nick]

Okay. I think you should feel really good about the letter.

[Michelle]

I do.

[Nick]

Okay, stop. Stop wondering if he read it. He doesn't check his mail very often. I mean, you know, maybe, maybe not. You know. And to your point, you wrote it for you, right? If, I mean he will. He will get the letter. You know, how often do people like receive like regular mail that's not junk mail that has like a handwritten.

[Michelle]

I did the. I did the math with when I sent it and like the holiday.

[Nick]

He should hear you're tracking the mail. Yeah, I'm shocked that you didn't.

[Jane]

He's got it.

[Nick]

I'm shocked that you didn't require an air tag or like a signature of receipt. You know, like you. The mailman hands over the. The letter and he takes a photo of the guy and he's like hold on, I gotta send it to the.

[Michelle]

He's alive.

[Nick]

Yeah. But yeah, I think just you gotta feel like you like you. You said a couple Times that you still need you. You. All you want now from him is the clip. Clarity. Like, you have the clarity, right?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

The specifics is so you don't have the why. The why doesn't really matter. You know, he is, he is not where you are right now. And let me ask you this. Like, if he showed up at your door holding the letter with a tear running down his eye and a flower in his hand and was just like, I love you, you know, and what was. Would, would you. Can you confidently say that all your doubts about the two of you or your feelings about him and the certainty of that this is a relationship you really want to really try and I don't. And, and I didn't mean, oh, you're certain he's the one, because you would never be certain in that moment, but just someone that you were like, I am no longer going to get in my head and I'm not going to question things. And if I wake up one day and don't feel like, like I want to jump his bones, I'm not going to like, overanalyze that and, and question the relationship. I'm just gonna like, you know, still enjoy what I enjoy about him rather than question my feelings. Are you confident that that's where you would be?

[Michelle]

That's a great question. I, I think that my hesitancy to say yes is less of a him problem and more of like me. And, and therefore then what leads to kind of my fear going forward with J dating of just my always over analyzing. But I think if I had to choose this one of those sides, it would be, it would be yes, but I would still be saying, but I don't know that this is my person. I know you're saying like, I don't know, it's okay if you don't know he's the one. But that's where I feel like I'm. It's like, at what point will I ever stop overanalyzing and decide that somebody is so. I don't know.

[Nick]

Whenever, you know, when you're ready, I guess. You know, that's a you thing. Yeah, I mean, for me, you know, like, I, you know, before I met Natalie, I've told versions of the story a million times, but yeah, I mean, I was single for a really, really long time. I, I going on reality TV show to find love in your. In your 30s. Having been someone in my 20s who was, I guess, a hopeless romantic and very much like, you know, wanted to emulate my parents. And then I kind of had to recover from that, you know, and in my late 20s, grow up a little bit, mature, you know, and kind of process, like, why I did things and didn't do things and what I. And recognize that some of these relationships that I really pursued and fought for were not because of the love or it was really just maybe a combination of my emotional immaturity and just the toxicity of the relationship. And I confused that with passion and romance and things like that, you know, Before I met Nelly, I had a lot of questions about, like, when will I know? I don't. You know, I. So many times remember when I was dating and I dated, you know, a lot of great women, you know, sometimes for a couple weeks, I had some that were a few months long, you know, whatever they were. Call them situationships. We were just, like, casually dating. And I remember even saying to friends, like, sometimes I just feel like I just have to pick somebody, you know, or I just, like. Because I don't. I don't feel this, like, driving force. But when. When those relationships or, you know, those things ended, I was a little sad, you know, I was a little like. You know, there would be moments where I'd want to call them and see what they're doing, but I never really missed them, you know, I was never really like, you know, what the fuck? You know.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Until I met Natalie, you know, and we were. We did the dad, we did the dating thing. And then, you know, when. When she was kind of like, fuck this, you know, you're. I'm really. You're. I'm really done with you. Kind of. Of, you know, honestly, like, playing with my heart. I guess, in a way I was, you know, maybe unintentionally, but nevertheless, that's how she felt. And I. You know, there was periods of, you know, we would stop talking and I was talking to other women. Then I just was always thinking about Natalie, you know, when I was with these other women, and I was trying to pretend I wasn't thinking about Natalie, you know, and I was, like, telling myself, like, you know. You know, and that for me, that was the. You know, and at that point, it wasn't like, I know she's my person, you know, I know I didn't. You know, there were all of my insecurities and all my questions still existed, you know, because as someone who's also an overthinker and a ruminator, I'm really good at finding the problems, you know, Like, I think that's one of my strengths in business, is that Like, I'm good at coming up with ideas. I'm even better at critiquing other people's ideas, not to. Not to be a dick, but to just to help workshop them, you know? And so when it comes to my own life, I'm really good at poking holes in my personal life.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But with Natalie, it was more like. I remember having this very specific epiphany, if you will, which is like, I had been single for all these years, I had met some great people, and while I have no regrets about the ones I didn't pursue, I remember thinking, I haven't really gone for it. I haven't really tried with anyone. I haven't really tried to see where anything goes. And that was over the course of years, five, seven years. And it's like, I could have dated some of these people, ended the relationship, and still be where I'm in today, but I never tried. I'm just kind of casually dating and waiting for a miracle to happen.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, and. And you. I think, you know, it's like, I remember because, you know, for me, it was. My dating life was, you know, not early, late teens, early 20s. And again, you know, you. It's easy, you know, you are less cynical. You have less experience. You're overthinking, you know, you're. You have. You're not damaged goods, you know, and by, you know, my damaged goods, you. You know, all of us who have been hurt by people heartbroken, led on, you know, or, you know, just, you know, people have wronged us, you become cynical. But I never really tried, you know, I never. It was just like. And so here I was, dating Natalie, having these feelings. I missed her. I thought about her a lot. Still very. And then I could think of a hundred reasons why this could go wrong. And I thought to myself, I gotta at least try, you know, and this is someone I really need to. You know, I would regret not trying, you know, and if I never try, if I never put myself out there and with a willingness to be wrong, you know, because as we get older, and at this point, I'm 38, 37, I don't know, somewhere around there, and I'm like, I'm 37 years old. And, you know, like, at that. When you get older, I don't know about you, but, like, for, you know, when you're in your early 20s and you have some heart, you get heartbroken. Right. And when you're. When you're early mid-20s, you still feel old, you know, you're just like, and then when a relationship ends, you have that common feeling of like, oh, my God. It's just like, that's like three years of my life gone, you know, Three years of my life I can't get back. I have to start over. That feeling of starting over when a relationship ends is such a heavy, scary feeling, you know, it's like, oh, my God, I gotta do this all over again. Oh, my God. You know, it's just like. And so I think a lot of my reluctance to, like, jump into relationship was like, like, I don't. I don't want to, like, invest in, in someone and, and, and give them a year and a half or two years of my life and then realize that they're not the one. So all these people I dated, you know, and never really went for it. I just kind of like, I just played the relationship out in my head. I'm kind of like, well, you know, like, listen, I know where this is going to go, but it's not going to go anywhere. So, like, let's just not, you know. And again with Nally, it was just like, well, I can't. Can't do it that way. You know, I have to just try. So this is all to say, you know, I think hopefully this is a lesson you've learned, that whatever you are searching for, yeah, we all want to spark, we all want to feel a little bit of excitement, but I think as we get older, we have to reframe what that excitement looks like.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah, right. And you mentioned the word safety, and I think that's something you've. You've listened to the show. You hear me really preach that. Natalie has always made me feel safe, but more importantly, she's always made me feel loved. You know, in every relationship, there's moments of like, you know, you hurt each other or, you know, things come up. But like, even in those moments, I was like, this person really makes me feel like she wants to put as much energy and effort in this relationship as I. I know I do. And for me, that has really been the key for mine and Natalie's relationship is that, you know, whatever ups and downs we've had, as all couples do, in my past relationships, there were moments where I was like, I think she fucking hates my guts. You know, Like, I don't. How do you feel about me? Like, you know, and with Natalie, you know, it's like. And then there was like, I don't know if she's really putting in the effort or I feel like I'm doing More at times, but that wasn't the case, you know, with her. And. And that was a different feeling, and that was something that really, I. I cherished and I leaned into. So, you know, I think going forward, let this be a lesson that, you know, you have the spark, you know, this. The. These things of so much about. What you appreciated about him was like, how he showed up for you.

[Jane]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You could rely on him and how he handled himself and in different situations compared to the other man. Other men. And. And that's something you'll just have to remember and not maybe not question, not pull back. I think maybe in the future when you're feeling that maybe I know you're like, I wanted to be a direct person, and I'm a direct person. I have found at times that that's not always the best approach. Sometimes I could just keep my inner monologue to myself, because sometimes you say, there have been a handful of times where.

[Michelle]

I don't know.

[Nick]

I don't know. I don't know what the context was where I'd say something to Natalie, and to me, it was like a throwaway thought. And then three months later, she's like, you know, one time you said that to me, and I'm like, what? I said? And I could tell it, like, it. It sat with her, you know, at the time, she didn't, like, react to it. She didn't like it. It didn't become a fight, but it. She remembered it, and she felt a certain way about it. And her way of processing it was not to be reactive in the moment, but I realized that hurt her feelings or at least affected her in a way, you know, and so sometimes we just have to be careful about that. And how people react initially doesn't necessarily mean it didn't bother them or it wasn't a thing. So. And a lot of that. A lot of those moments come from me just, like, probably saying too much in the spirit of honesty and transparency, you know, and direct communication.

[Michelle]

Yep.

[Nick]

So, you know, that's something to remember. And. And I. Yeah. I mean, there's no mag. Magic thing I think I can say to make you feel better. And it sounds like you kind of know a lot of the answers already.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But you just have to try not to. You have to accept where things are today, and you have to, as corny as it sounds, be grateful for the experience. You're. I mean, it's. It's so annoying, but you do well.

[Michelle]

And I think the things that just resonated with me the most in there is. Is really the fact that I do just probably need to. To give things a try and see it out. Because I do think that. I mean, I'm an entrepreneur as well. I think I very much have those. Like, I. I want to just make sure it all puts. Works. I can see all the issues with it. I think forward whatnot. And so I'll. I'll determine. Yeah. Is this already what. All the reasons it won't work. I. I know I'm only 29. In my head, I feel old. I feel like I'm one of the last ones here, not in a relationship. So I'm like, I don't want to waste that time. Right. But at the end of the day, everything is gonna go nowhere until you give it something.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Michelle]

Until you give it time. So.

[Nick]

One of the best lessons I've continued to learn and be reminded of as I get older, when I think about my past relationships. Well, one, I don't think about them a lot, but when I do think about them, I only really think about the bad moments, because the bad moments have now all turned into amazing memories. And I. I think really, when it comes to relationships that don't work out, that we survive and process and work through those are the. Like, I don't. I don't remember. I don't sit there and spend a lot of time thinking about that one time with my one girlfriend where I did some romantic thing. We had a good. I mean. I mean, those happen, but I don't reminisce about them. Like, I don't miss them, but I really. I. Some. When I, When. If. If a memory pops into my head, I will think about, man, I was really down bad that day. I said some crazy shit, you know, I remember being really hurt. And I. And I always think back and laugh, you know, I laugh at myself. I chuckle. But I also know that, like, I don't feel that way anymore. I survived it. I worked through it. You know, I have a different perspective. And those are just like, really useful memories because every day something shows up in our life. Every day there's a problem. There's things that make us anxious, Anxious, you know, there's things that show up that scare us, like, oh, my God, what is this? How's this gonna happen? But, like, you know, I serve, you know, you. We've survived so much in our life, you know, and so I think, if anything, now's not the time to really ruminate about this guy. Now's the time to, like, focus on how to get Past it, get through it. But if you never talk to this guy again, at some point, you will only remember how you got over it, and you will only remember some of the crazier times that you had or times that you were most confused. And I don't know how you will think about it, but it will be a happy memory. It won't be like, there's this. I don't. There's just no way five years from now, you're gonna be like, I really that up, and then he's the one that got away. It just. I hope 100. It won't. It won't. It won't be. It just won't be. I really. You know, especially because, again, even if he met someone right now, you guys have this fairly long history.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You shared a lot of great moments. Yes, you were back and forth and confused, but you did. You put your heart out there. You really went for it. You wrote this letter. You put it all on the table. And if there is something there, maybe he still needs the processes. And I'm not saying this to give you hope, but, like, if there. If.

[Michelle]

If.

[Nick]

If there is something there that is worth you two really giving this another shot, it'll happen.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, and if it doesn't happen, there's definitely a reason why, for sure.

[Michelle]

And that's. That's a big reason why I. I needed to write it, because it was like, if I don't get an answer from this, like, that's. That is clarity. That is. You know, so, yeah, I mean, and I feel. I feel good about that. And I. I think that part of this conversation has, like, did make me realize, like, damn, I really do wish I truly did see that through. Like, that is my. I think, problem is that I am poking holes and not, like, because so what? Maybe, yeah, we would have dated six months, and maybe it wouldn't.

[Brooke]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah. But you have to let, again, just learn the lesson.

[Michelle]

Use that as a lesson.

[Nick]

But, like, again, when I finally came around, Natalie was there, and she. And she was ready to pursue something and, you know, and. Because I felt like I was really being sincere. And while not perfect and certainly she had reasons to be justifiably frustrated with me and confused and certainly uncertain, she was still there and willing to give it a shot. Because at that point, really, I really put the cards on the table. I shot my shot. I really went for it. I changed my behavior and my line of thinking, and we tried. And if there was something there, if this relationship was ready to give It a shot. He would show up, he would respond because we've all, you didn't do anything. That's so unforgivable. Sometimes we're all confused. Clearly he's doing the same thing now. So it's this idea that he can't get over a little bit of back and forth. Because what you guys always had, even in your back and forthness, in your uncertainty, is you always had that chemistry. When you guys would reconnect, there was always that. This is why I like you feeling.

[Michelle]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nick]

And that's maybe something you can remember when you're in your head is like, how do I feel when I see this person? And don't overanalyze what the feeling is. But you felt different, that's for sure. You felt something, you know.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And then you just have to stop overanalyzing that and just be like, this is definitely different than some of the other guys. And maybe that should be good enough.

[Michelle]

Yeah, this is good.

[Nick]

You'll probably hear from him at some point.

[Michelle]

You think so?

[Nick]

I mean it's short of him having met his person and he's really just in this relationship and it's, you know, he's in the honeymoon phase and they're, they're, they're fantasizing about life together and things like that and it works out and you find out he's been dating someone in a few months. You know, like if it's his person, maybe not, you know, because that and should be his priority to protect that relationship. And you know, you'll, you might cross paths and it'll be this kind of awkward, like. Yeah, you know, but if he, if he, if he hasn't met someone or he met someone and it just doesn't work out. Yeah. Yeah, you will, you will definitely hear from him. When. I don't know what that'll be like. I don't know.

[Michelle]

I'm not, I'm not holding on to it. I, I'm not even, I'm not holding on to even a response from this letter. I think what's interesting is like there will be some sort of cross pass at some point just given our, our friends and there will be. I'm shocked this hasn't happened yet. But like there will be a couple time when he sees my best friend and we will get some sort of information because she's very like that.

[Nick]

You have to let go of that.

[Michelle]

I know. Yeah.

[Nick]

You don't need any more information.

[Michelle]

You're right.

[Nick]

You're not information hunting. You don't You're. Stop playing detective. Call off the dog, so to speak. You know, you stop commiserating with this mutual friend you got. You do. You have to let that go. Yeah. And next time you. Next time you talk to that friend and she brings it up, you just politely be like, you know what? Let. We need to stop.

[Michelle]

Yeah, she doesn't bring up. In her defense, she. She's my. My, My best. Best.

[Nick]

Well, then you need to stop.

[Michelle]

Which is who I've talked to. Yeah, but I mean, I've. I've deleted locations. I've, you know, muted on Instagram. I've done. I'm.

[Nick]

Well, stop. Stop dating him in your head.

[Michelle]

Yeah, that part's next.

[Nick]

Yeah. And then, you know, just stop second guessing yourself. Like you're, you know, you're. It's. Your person's out there. You really have to stay positive. And it's so annoying, but you really have to just trust that this is part of the journey and just know that at some point you will look back on all of this and laugh and you will be grateful that you experienced it. It's so weird to say, oh, would you do life over again if you woke up and you were 21? Of course we would make a bunch of different choices. But like, I don't know, like, I'm glad I don't. I wouldn't do life over because, like, it's so much everything. It's all a part of the journey. It really is. And it's all part of learning and experiencing things. And again, I'm so grateful of all of my exes and all my bad experiences, that of my pain and heartbreak, because that is the surviving those is really makes us who we are. It's just important to survive those. And it's important to allow ourselves to move forward and not ruminate and not question things.

[Michelle]

And.

[Nick]

And that's the part where we. We don't learn lessons when we constantly refuse to, like, accept the clarity that we have by convincing ourselves we don't have the clarity we need. Okay, so you have everything you need to move forward. So start. Start moving forward.

[Michelle]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the biggest takeaway from talking to you too is that is just giving things a try. I mean, I think that a lot of my overthinking comes from feeling like I'm running out of time. Right. And just wanting the answer now. And so just.

[Nick]

Just what I. Yeah.

[Michelle]

Yeah. And that's what I am learning. I regret from this one is not trying. So just going forward and you just. If something Feels good.

[Nick]

Yeah. They're just going to be your ex, you know.

[Jane]

Yeah.

[Nick]

The way, the way we treat boyfriend and girlfriend like a, like a wedding ceremony these days is crazy to me.

[Michelle]

It's not, I feel like it's not that I don't care about. It's the, like. Okay, well, now I'm 32 and now I'm 35, and now. Yeah, that's.

[Nick]

But, but, yeah, yeah, but that's why we have to just be present as much as possible and really go for it and, and be in the moment because worrying about how old we're going to be someday if things don't go is just a giant waste of our time.

[Michelle]

Yep, it's true.

[Nick]

All right, well, all right, well, thank you. Hopefully this is helpful.

[Michelle]

It. It was very helpful.

[Nick]

All right, well, keep us posted. I would love to know.

[Michelle]

I will.

[Nick]

Definitely, you know how you're dealing in three or four months. I would be curious whether he reaches out back or not. And if he does certainly reach out,

[Michelle]

I'll definitely send an update. Well, thank you. I congrats to you, Natalie. I have been listening since I don't remember who you first had as your first very like other producers like Sug or something those days.

[Jane]

Okay.

[Michelle]

Yeah. Yes. So long time listener.

[Nick]

Sugar's like a part time nanny for us forever.

[Michelle]

Love it, love it, love it, love it.

[Nick]

All right, take care. Great meeting you.

[Michelle]

Thank you.

[Nick]

All right, Bye. Bye.

[Jane]

Bye.

[Nick]

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[Jane]

Hi Nick, my name is Jane and I'm 35 years old and my husband is prioritizing another woman, women over me and I don't know what more I could do.

[Nick]

Who is she?

[Jane]

Yeah, a co worker, coworker.

[Nick]

Is this like. Have we gotten to like a fair level or is this like.

[Jane]

No, no, no, no.

[Nick]

Okay, so what do you, what give, give me the, give me the, the story or the background.

[Jane]

So my husband and I have been together 10 years, married for five and he's worked with this woman, I would say like eight of those years. And, and for a long time she had a long time partner and I think maybe like a couple years, three years ago they split up and it's hard for Me not to see things in just, like, a different view. I'm a woman. And there's been some just, like, strange moments over the years that have caused us to fight over, like, you know, I'm like, this is weird. Like, for example, it wasn't this last summer, but the year before we got new phones. And so I was like, in our phone plan, looking like, oh, how much usage? Because. Yeah. And I noticed that he was having, like, so many phone calls. And I was like, well, we don't

[Brooke]

talk on the phone.

[Jane]

Like, what? This is weird. And I looked at him and they're all from a number that is from a random state that I'm like, this is this friend. And so he's calling this person every morning on his drive to work, works

[Nick]

with them for what is. What is their working relationship.

[Jane]

They are both. She's technically his supervisor at the end of the day, but they're pretty almost close in level and they run a program together. So they're constantly collaborating and things like that.

[Nick]

So it. It makes sense from a work standpoint that they do talk a lot.

[Michelle]

Sure. I mean, yeah.

[Jane]

But I mean, out of hours, out of office hours, I wouldn't think that they were talking about work.

[Nick]

Well, I mean, I don't. I mean, I. I don't. Depends. I mean, every. There's so many different jobs. I mean, you know, like, I don't. I don't even know what normal working hours are for me, you know, for, you know, it's like, yeah, happens, and I gotta deal with it sometimes. But I don't know if that's the case with your husband.

[Jane]

You know, I knew they were, and they've already been close friends since then, and so. And it's already been a topic of discussion. And so, yeah, me seeing that he was calling her so often, I was like, I thought he was cheating on me. And I, you know, I called him out that night and it was very. Like, he was like, oh, shit. Like. Like, in a way of, like, I didn't know I was doing something wrong. She's going through a hard time, and it's like, whoa.

[Nick]

I mean, so, yeah, he's not our therapist.

[Jane]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And what did you say?

[Jane]

And he lit. He literally was like, it's like our own podcast. I call her and I say, what's going on today? Like, that's how he.

[Nick]

Yeah, it says. It's crazy. That's crazy. That's inappropriate. Yeah. So if it's like, yo, I. You know, as soon as I start my day, we're we're talking about the project and the plan and how we execute and work is work and. And they might have to talk on the phone a lot. That's one thing. But him acknowledging that, like, they're. They're just friends who like confide in each other and she's opened up to him about the divorce or the breakup. It's like, yo, you know, like, you gotta. He's got a what? Like, it's, you know, you're not like. Do you guys have kids?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Jane]

Yeah. So we have a three year old and I'm pregnant right now.

[Nick]

Oh, congratulations.

[Michelle]

Thank you.

[Nick]

Yeah, it's fucking crazy. Did you say as much with that confidence that like, what the are you doing? And like, I mean, so why, why has he. Why is this still. It sounds like he's not.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Jane]

So I think where we are. Where we are. Like, you know, that was like a big. That's probably the biggest thing that was like, you know, he did, you know, he's like, I'm like, this is what I need. Like, you can't do that. You know, like this, that's a boundary. Like, that's crazy. And know a lot of the times when we have these things, he. We just like push it on the rug. I'm guilty of it as well. But like, it's like we fight about it. It's like, why do you. Why, why.

[Nick]

Why are we fighting about it?

[Jane]

Because he. Yeah, Like, I mean, I see my perspective of. Because he's so strong willed. Like, I'm not doing anything wrong. That's not true on you, basically.

[Nick]

That's.

[Jane]

Yeah, exactly. Like his thing of being wrong is that he has cheated on me physically with her.

[Nick]

There's, there's, there's. First of all, we don't even have to call it cheating. There's other ways people can. Can cheat or feel. I. You. You are feeling what you feel. And maybe this could help you articulate to your husband. Either way, this is like, it's not your, you know, but it is hurting our connection. You said we don't talk on the phone like that. So here's this other woman that he is making connections with and doing something he doesn't even do with his own wife life, which is like talk on the phone and like share stories and bond. I bet you would love some version of that sometime. You know, just the excitement of like. Imagine he gets done with his day and the first thing he does is call you on his way home to like talk about the day. He. He can. He literally is doing that with another woman. I mean there I would argue that a lot of women listening to this show, like man, if I could get that from a husband, he can go whoever you want. And I'm kidding. But like, you know, like, like that, that is a meaningful connection that as people we desire, especially you know, married couples. So for him to pretend and, and play dumb that he's not doing anything wrong and, and then, and then double down by arguing with you to preserve this connection he has with this other woman is crazy on top of the fact that you're probably pregnant.

[Jane]

So yeah, so I would say like things haven't changed in a year in that regards.

[Nick]

And so he still talks to her on a regular basis.

[Jane]

Not on the phone? No, no, no, no, no, nothing like that. But he works with the woman and there's always like, oh like going out to drinks, you know, and I don't. A lot of times it's not one on one. But even just like, because over the years it's just like her seeing her name on his phone, like the text popping up, it's like, and like, you know, just like you said, like, yeah.

[Nick]

Does she text him about non work related things?

[Jane]

Both. Both. So it's hard to tell. So it's like sometimes I see your name, I'm like, oh, she's texting you. And he's like, well it was a question about work. And it's like, so it's like then I'm the one feeling like crazy because

[Nick]

I'm always a question about work.

[Jane]

No, it's not because they're friends. And he claims, or claims he, he's very open about how they're friends.

[Nick]

I mean, you know, like that, that's like I, when I was single, I had a lot of girlfriends. We didn't hook up. We weren't, you know, it's like we weren't. But like those friendships, even though we weren't hooking up and we were just platonic friends, aren't appropriate for me to have today, now that I have. They weren't even appropriate when Nellie was just my girlfriend. You know, I would have dinner with these women, I would go to movies with them. I would hang out their house at 2 o' clock in the morning and just like talk about, about whatever. And we would bond and we, we had connections. You know, they were friendship connections, but they were, they were certainly more than work connections. And then I chose to be in a relationship and, and, and wanting that relationship that turned into me getting married and starting a family. With someone to be like the most important relationship in my life and, and knowing that, you know, for all of us who talk about wanting to find our person, our one, and have a relationship that lasts a. Over time and again, like, relationships are hard enough and no one's perfect and we all make mistakes and yada, yada, yada. But like, he is arguing with you about energy. He is putting into this friendship and justifying it because, like, well, we're only just friends. It's. Some friendships in a marriage are inappropriate. And it, like, even if it was a guy, you know, if, if, if your husband had a male friend, you know, and assuming your husband's straight and things like that. And, but, but that friend required him to talk on the phone with them constantly and play video games and go golfing and go hunting to the point where you felt like your husband had a stronger bond and connection with this male friend, that would also be inappropriate. There's a, you know, when, when married couples say, oh, my husband and my wife is my best friend, like, I know sometimes we just say that, but it, it's supposed to be true. It's supposed to be true because that person isn't just the person we're like having a family with and making love with and having starting kids with is the person that like, we talk about our problems to, we share our insecurities about. We, we bond with, you know, and yeah, life gets us down and sometimes like, you know, but like, we have to put that energy in those connections and relationships that we want to be strongest. Otherwise we grow apart, we feel distant. You know, our, the people we live with and we've been married to for years feel like strangers, roommates. That's, that's how that happens. So your husband is going down a path that quite frankly, if, if it doesn't stop or he doesn't like, realize what he's doing and, and change how he's investing his energy, you know, like, it's, it's not going to end well.

[Jane]

Yeah, and it came to. That's really the conversation in January. We ended up having like, and I think being pregnant. I'm eight months pregnant, so it's been a while and around four or five months. Like, you know, you're not. We, you know, we like to drink together, we like to go out, we like to do these things and then that stops. And being pregnant is also just like a mental mind game. And so it's just like I'm questioning. I'm like, I'm boring. I'm this I'm this. And my husband wants to go out with these people. And. And so it all came to, like, this kind of moment in January where I'm just, like, kind of really pleading with him of, like. Like, this is how I feel. And whether you're doing something wrong or not in your eyes, like, it's like, triggering me to, like, feel like we are, like, at this rate, we're going to get divorced. Like, that's. You know, I said these words to him, like, I. Like, I can't keep going on like this. I feel so. Like. Like you said, like, I feel so disconnected from you even when we're alone and you're just, like, after having some drinks out in your home and you're still drinking, and I'm not drinking and I'm in bed because I'm tired. And so it's just like, we were in this terrible spot, and I felt like we. So I feel like we've made progress in the way, like, he agrees that it's like, a weird thing. Like, he. He's finally said, like, I see your point of view, that having me, having a close friend that's a woman is, he says, like, taboo or. It's. It's. It's just not normal. And so he's, like, agreed with me on that.

[Nick]

It's wrong. It's wrong.

[Jane]

He refuses to change to make me feel better. And so. And I'm.

[Nick]

I mean, that's. Yeah, I mean, you know, like you

[Jane]

said, I'm in this most vulnerable state right now. Like, I am, like, I. And I'm like. I don't know how to explain it to you differently. Like, I can.

[Michelle]

You.

[Jane]

Even if, like, I mean, that's.

[Nick]

That you shouldn't have. You should, like, I'm sorry you're going through this and the fact that you're eight months pregnant. I really. And I'm not trying to, like, on your husband here, but, like, it's.

[Jane]

Yeah, he's really great. I just.

[Nick]

I mean, you know, I'm sure he's fine. I'm sure he's fine. He's definitely not really great. And if you show him this episode. I'm sorry, dude, but, like, you know, listen, like, when. When. When a. When a married couple is, you know, obviously, as you're the one having the baby, you. You are dealing with so much. But if we want to give your husband and all the boys out there a little bit of grace, I think, you know, it's a challenge for anyone, you know, both. Both parties in a couple. Couple that when you're pregnant, there's, you know, things change, things can get difficult. You know, sometimes you, you know, you might acknowledge, you might get emotional and sometimes the emotional, those emotions might be confusing to him or might feel unfair or whatever. But like, that's, that's, that's part of the gig, man. That's what we signed up for, right? Part of it of, of working through that is to say, you know, in the next nine months, not everything might make sense. And I, you know, I, I might some. My wife might ask me something that she's never asked me before or doesn't even feel like normal. But you know what? It's. Right now it's my job to show up for her, not ask questions. It's my job to make sure that she is relaxed and calm and not stressed or not anxious. It's certainly my job to not bring any unnecessary stress and anxiety into her life. You know, that's, that's bare minimum, right? The fact that, you know, and take away you being pregnant right now, the fact that like, he has been. Been investing a great deal of energy, not only putting time into this friendship, that he is also putting in energy to fight for the right to have that friendship is just a kind of a you to you and you know, taboo. Like he is trying to like, talk his way around doing something that is just like, like I said, I don't care. It's just inappropriate. Like unless you two are kind of couple who like mutually agrees to have these types of friendships in your life and have some kind of like, open relationship. And again, like, I don't mean in like everyone's, but I'm just saying like, like, again, like a marriage doesn't work over the, you know, in the long run if you don't decide to show up and make that relationship your number one priority. It just doesn't. And he can say whatever he wants, but he's clearly not making it his number one priority. There are days where he makes this other woman, woman more of a priority than you. And you feel that constantly. And the fact that you feel that should be, you know, and the fact that there is any part of him that would be, would, would feel weird to tell her that means like, he is more worried about her feelings than yours. Because it should be so easy for him to say listen or, or it would be. First of all, it would be so easy to just distance himself from her. He doesn't even need to explain shit to her. He doesn't need to like, get coffee and say hey, we can't do this anymore. I mean, if he has to do that, if he has to do that, then like, what the fuck is this relationship? You know? So it should be so easy to just start to stop taking her calls after hours, to just stop responding, you know, like, to just, oh, oh, I'm sorry, I was with my wife and kid. Like, he doesn't need an explanation. He could just not respond. He can just not be available. He could just, like, there is no woman in this world outside of my wife right now who has any expectations of me, me to show up for them in any meaningful way. My employees, some of them, which are women. Yeah, I mean, I guess I have some responsibility there to get back to them and things like that. But short of that, there's not a single woman in this world who like, is expecting me to call them back outside of a working, you know, and again, like, if it was just work, fine. You know, work is work and you know, men work with women, you know, that should be totally fine. But clearly this is going beyond that. And he's. He's not even denying that, you know, he's. This. He's justifying by saying, well, I'm doing wrong. I'm not her. She's just my friend. It's like, okay, well, I don't. I don't care what their gender is. Like, this is a friend that clearly you are prioritizing too much and you are deprioritizing our relationship at a time where I need. I just need you to show up for me. I just, yeah, I do. I do need you to do more. Like, I'm literally growing a person in my body. I am, like, making all these sacrifice. I didn't even get to choose all these. I just, other than the fact that, like, I guess, yeah, I'm the woman in this relationship, so I'm guessing I'm the one having the kid. And he, like, he needs to do his part, which means at times do what he can. Even if it doesn't like, you know, I imagine it doesn't feel fair when your body, you know, a pain shows up or emotion shows up, up, it is responding. You. You being pregnant, I bet that doesn't feel fair or normal or whatever. Like, he. This is not about fairness. So. Yeah, I mean, he needs the. He needs the man up and it needs to take care of his family and take care of his wife more than he's doing. And you shouldn't feel like you in any way have to apologize or, or feel weird about It. And. And the fact that he's even arguing with you is. Is. Is great. Crazy.

[Brooke]

Yeah.

[Jane]

And I guess that's where we're, like, stuck at this point. It's like, I think, you know, we've come a long way of, like, being able to talk about it and not in, like, a toxic way. Like, I'm like, let's hear each other out.

[Nick]

And I mean, honestly, the fact that you.

[Jane]

About her, it's like, about, you know, just the general, like you said, like, being there for me and even not going, you know, out. But it's like, we are still like, oh, I.

[Michelle]

It's.

[Jane]

I either feel like I'm saying no and he's at home resenting me and like. But, you know, and then I'm dealing with that. And so it's like, do I just suck it up and say if that's going to make me feel more comfortable than letting him go out to, like, happy hour drinks? And, you know, and he did stop drinking the last two months because of a lot of this stuff. And, like, that has felt supportive. And I've tried to be like, you know, I really appreciate it. That's like, a way that you are, like, showing me and committing that, like, you know, but it's still like, oh, I still want to go to this show or whatever. I'm not drinking, though. It's like, okay, cool. But, like, I'm. Yeah, like, I feel like I'm sacrificing so much and. And you are still not getting it. And I don't know how. Like, it's like, how else can I get you to consider me more? Like, I want him to wake up and be like, oh, maybe my wife, like, wouldn't appreciate that. I'm not going to ask her if I can go and put her in that position to say no, I have to. Or I let him go. And then I'm at home anxious and upset.

[Nick]

Yeah, I mean, I'm just, like, stuck there, I guess. My. You know, I don't have a. An answer that's going to make you feel better in the. In the short run, other than the fact that, like, I just. I just validate your feelings that you're. You're not crazy or wrong to feel the way you do. And I just think in the long run, you're better off trusting your instincts and feelings and standing your ground for what you know is right and what, you know, your relationship needs to survive, because at the end of the day, you're right. Like, if your husband doesn't make different choices or chooses to prioritize this relationship in a more meaningful way. It has an expiration date. I don't know when that is, but it'll happen. Happen. Because, yeah, if your two choices are to feel alone or anxious, like, how long are you going to be able to do that? Right. And if he's going to constantly feel like a victim because it's too much for him to, like, yeah, listen. And it's not saying, like, every time your wife's pregnant, you have to, like, give up your entire life for nine months. I got to go play, you know? You know, I. I got to, you know, I get to go out with. You know, every once in a while, I'll be like, hey, I'm going to go watch this thing, you know. You know, for an hour. I won't be with my wife, you know, have a little alone time, whatever. But that's once in a while. And at any point when my wife's like, I need you right now, I'm there, you know, and I'm happy to be there because, like, she needs me. And I, you know, I guess selfishly, I like being needed. But, like, yeah, it's. He's. He is definitely prioritizing his own feelings over yours. And this desire to, like, have like, how. You know how crazy that is that he gets to, like, have fun. And I don't mean, like, he shouldn't be able to have fun. I'm just saying, just like, he is still chasing a little bit of the single life while his wife is eight months pregnant. It's like, bro.

[Jane]

Yeah. And he's. He's shared those feelings of, like. Like, almost like this, like, crisis, like, identity crisis of like, I don't want to be just a dad. I don't want this to be, like, our whole life. And I'm like, yeah, me neither either. But look at me. Like, I'm like, I'm.

[Nick]

You know, I mean, what else?

[Jane]

I love being a mom, but we have other hobbies, and it's like.

[Nick]

But yeah, what is that? Just right now, what does he want? A bro. I mean, sure. What I mean, does, like, you. Yeah.

[Jane]

I want to have all these interests, and I want, like.

[Nick]

It's not like he's investing his time to, like, I don't know, invent something or do something. Is he really gonna look back in his life 20 years from now and remember the times at the bar with the bros or, like, the co worker who, like, was an outlet from his, like, family? Yeah, I doubt it. You know, if by all means if he wants to do more with his life and do be more than a dad, I think. Well, one. He's selling fatherhood a little short, but. Sure, dude. But, like, I don't think his time is going into something. He's going to look back and be like, I did that shit.

[Michelle]

Yeah, I.

[Jane]

And I just feel like, especially in this, like, moment we're in, like, okay, we're about to have this newborn. Like, I get it. But, like, yes, for the. It's temporary. Like, this is going to be, like, a hard time and we're going to grow our family and have to figure all that out and.

[Nick]

Are you guys doing couples?

[Michelle]

Eventually, we're going to be doing.

[Jane]

We're going to have hobbies, and we're, you know, like, that stuff happens, but.

[Nick]

And you're not even asking him not to have hobbies. Yeah. You're not even. You know, it's. You're asking him to not be selfish.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Jane]

Yeah. And it's hard for me to be selfish. And. And I've really, like, pushed. Like, I'm like, I. I deserve to.

[Nick]

There's no. There's nothing selfish about giving your body to raise a. A life. There's nothing selfish about you being pregnant. You have the right to want to, like, treat yourself or do things for yourself. I don't. You know, it's. It's hardly selfish. Everything about what you're doing is so selfless. And the fact, you know, it's like, yeah, but.

[Jane]

Yeah, I mean, I'm glad I'm, like, validated because there are times, you know, like, everything else is, like, great.

[Brooke]

And he.

[Jane]

You know, and it's. It's. It's funny because I'm like, the physical versus emotional. It's like the emotional, to me is, like, worse, like, your connection with someone else. If I'm here, like, yeah, we could. We have sex. It is great. And we have. We have a great life and all this stuff. But then if I still feel like you're like, oh, I wish I could be doing this with this girl and. Or, oh, something reminds you of her and you need to text her about it. Like, that's so weird to me.

[Nick]

And that's like, they shouldn't have inside jokes. They shouldn't have.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah, they. It's just.

[Jane]

Yeah, I'm glad I'm validated because I just. Or it's nice to hear because I just like, yeah, some days I'm like. Like, I just need to calm down. I need to, like, get over it.

[Nick]

But you definitely don't need to get over it. I, I hope you can remain calm because that's obviously better for your health, but like, you don't. You definitely don't need to get over this. And if anything, you shouldn't. I don't think you should waste any energy arguing with him. And he is trying to normalize something that shouldn't be normal. Like it's just inappropriate for you to have any meaningful friendship with, With a woman in a marriage with a kid and even his guy friendships, like, you know, have friends. But he needs to make sure his connection with you is always strong. And right now, he is prioritizing connections outside of this marriage a little too much. And not just showing up for you in a way that, you know, makes you feel like you have a part. You're doing this alone. I'm sure you feel like on some level and, you know, I, I don't know if he's ever gonna, if you're gonna show him this episode, but like, I, you know, I. That'll. That's gonna embarrass him someday. You know, right now it will. It just will. Like, you know, someday he will be. He'll have the guts to think about his. Some of his actions when he, when he's outside of his own selfish needs. We do this all the time, right? Like, you know, we should all be embarrassed by some things we didn't or didn't do. But, you know, you know, it might be 20 years from now. It might be, you know, for all the. I'm not saying he's a deadbeat dad or anything like that, but there are deadbeat dads out there. And there are a lot of kids who grow up to realize that, you know, one of their parents or their dads just like, didn't show up the way maybe some other people did. And, you know, it's embarrassing and they all feel it. They just, you know, it's always like, you know, so, you know, I, I hope that he gets out of his. His head, man, and, and, and wants to show up because, yeah, it sounds like overall you have a good thing and, you know, it's like there's a lot of positive your relationship, but I asked you about couples therapy and we got sidetracked. Are you guys in couples?

[Jane]

No. It's been mentioned in the last month, so, I mean, mean, they get this route. It's their best bet. It's, you know, scary to think about.

[Michelle]

But.

[Nick]

Why is it scary?

[Brooke]

Could be able.

[Jane]

I don't know. I think it's just More of like my mental headspace that I'm in right now where it feels very like, listen,

[Nick]

like, every, Every, every couple needs help. Yeah, every, every, every couple. Like, even the healthiest of couples sometimes need a third party to mediate. You know, I'm sure, you know, I've been hard on your husband. I'm sure there are emotions. He is feelings and feelings that are valid, and he's not sure how to communicate and process them. And a good couples therapist would just help you guys get on the same page. I'm sure some of his feelings are valid on some level. How he is going about processing those feelings or trying to, you know, is making his wife feel a certain way.

[Brooke]

Way.

[Nick]

And at a minimum, I imagine that deep down that, that does bother your husband. I. I imagine if he listened to this call, he would get very defensive because he doesn't want, you know, but, like, he should. You know, he should get defensive because that deep down he knows the truth, you know, that he has centered his feelings above yours in a moment where, like, honestly, anytime a guy, like, makes his feelings more important than his wife's when she's pregnant, he's kind of a dick.

[Michelle]

I agree with that.

[Nick]

You know, and that's not to say that his f. His feelings don't matter, but he is treating a friendship with a woman at work is something that is. He needs. And I don't. Like. I don't, you know, like. Like, like it's as equal to, like, you needing rest.

[Jane]

Yeah, it.

[Nick]

I mean, yeah. Dir. It's just.

[Jane]

Yeah. I feel like everyone else thinks it's so crazy, but it's like, except him. And it's like. It's like, I want to go talk to this. The coworker myself and just like, do you. Do you see?

[Michelle]

Like, do you get it? But.

[Nick]

Yeah, that's beneath you. I.

[Jane]

You know, like, I. I know, I know, I know. But that's, you know, but.

[Nick]

But don't let Couples therapy. It's not a sign. Yeah. It's not a. No couples therapy. We're one step closer to divorce. No.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

It's like the healthiest relationships could benefit from it. It's. It. Treat it like a bicycle helmet. Not. Not reconstructive surgery. Like, right now, you can't find the words to. To get through to your husband. You know, he needs to hear it from someone else. And I don't. I. And one thing I think, you know, without making, like, threats, but I do think, like, if anything else to say, like, I don't know what to tell you, but if, if, if this doesn't get better, we, like, we, we will become a statistic. We will be a cliche. We'll be a broken family. You are comparing your need to go out and have drinks and hang out with friends, some of which are. And making connections and having, you know, friendship connections with women over, like, you know, showing up for your wife and kids.

[Jane]

Kids.

[Nick]

And I, you know, I didn't sign up for that. And I don't know how long I, I can do this. So if you don't want this, just, you know, let me know now. But if you do, then I. We need to make changes.

[Jane]

No, that's, that's helpful.

[Nick]

I'm sorry you're going through this.

[Jane]

I think you're right. I think you're right.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Brooke]

Thank you.

[Nick]

All right, well, keep us posted. Let me know how it goes. But are you gonna. Are you gonna show them this episode? Episode?

[Jane]

I don't know. He, I, I want to, but he will. He would get very, very, like you said, embarrassed. Because you should be embarrassed.

[Nick]

Yeah, listen, I, I definitely, like, I, you know, let's not try to emasculate the guy. But more than anything, I just want you to not feel crazy for your, Your feelings are incredibly valid. Valid. And I think you should waste less energy trying to explain yourself to convince him. I think you just be like this, this is crazy. I shouldn't have to explain to you why this is up. And it has nothing to do with the fact that you're not you. It's like you want to pet on the back for not her. Like, that's. I didn't sign up for you. I didn't get married and have kids and choose to, like, build a family with a guy who, who wants to act single in a lot of ways. And like, I didn't sign up for that. I didn't sign up for you to, like, bond with another woman.

[Michelle]

Yeah, exactly.

[Nick]

So. All right, have a good day.

[Jane]

Well, thank you.

[Nick]

Sorry. I'm sorry you're going through this.

[Jane]

Thank you.

[Michelle]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Nick]

Take care.

[Jane]

Bye. Bye. Bye.

[Michelle]

Foreign.

[Nick]

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