E1101 - Taylor and Dakota w/ Therapy Jeff, Jessi & Chase Drama, Is West/Amanda True? Why Bach Might Not Air

Summary

The Viall Files

Episode E1101 – Taylor and Dakota w/ Therapy Jeff, Jessi & Chase Drama, Is West/Amanda True? Why Bach Might Not Air

Date: March 31, 2026

Host: Nick Viall with Natalie Joy, Susie Evans, Mary Leia, and guests Therapy Jeff and Alex Bonifur

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OVERVIEW

This “Reality Recap” episode dives deep into the current drama in the reality TV universe, focusing on the fallout from the Taylor Frankie Paul and Dakota scandal, why The Bachelorette might not air, messes in the Mormon Wives and Summer House worlds, and the latest on Age of Attraction. The Viall Files “Household” (Nick, Natalie, Susie, and Mary) blends personal stories, hot takes, and expert commentary with guests Therapy Jeff (licensed therapist and pop culture commentator) and actor Alex Bonifur from Company Retreat.

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EPISODE STRUCTURE & KEY SEGMENTS

1. Household Catch-Up: Personal Stories & Weekend Recap [01:54–08:44]
2. Reality TV News Rundown [08:44–17:07]
3. Age of Attraction Reunion: Preview and Hype [12:01–17:07]
4. Interview & Deep Dive with Therapy Jeff [20:32–67:44]
5. Pop Culture and Reality TV Relationships: Parasocial Bonds [57:16–62:20]
6. Company Retreat with Alex Bonifur: Behind the Scenes [87:01–113:13]
7. Final Thoughts & Upcoming Content [113:13–End]

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DETAILED BREAKDOWN

1. Household Catch-Up: Personal Stories & Weekend Recap

[01:54–08:44]

• The team shares lighthearted weekend anecdotes: beach naps, backyard barbecue experiments, toddler River’s milestones, and funny family moments.
• Notably, Nick and Natalie reflect on parenting, River’s language quirks, and the classic “horse girl” archetype.
• Mary suggests a video diary tradition for River: “Bring something into frame… every year, ask her these cute nuances…” (08:20)

Notable moment: “I made the most delicious steak sandwich I’ve ever had in my life…” – Nick [04:32]

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2. Reality TV News Rundown

[08:44–17:07]

Packed Episode Teasers:

• Taylor Frankie Paul, Dakota, and the fate of The Bachelorette.
• Mormon Wives (MomTok) scandal: real people, real consequences.
• Summer House: did Amanda and Wes actually hook up?
• Age of Attraction reunion preview.
• Andy Cohen vs. Sarah Michelle Geller debate over Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.
• Quick plug: Company Retreat with star guest Alex Bonifur.

Nick frames the episode as one that will tackle the intersection of reality TV entertainment and real-life impact, highlighting why expertise like Therapy Jeff’s matters for nuanced cultural moments.

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3. Age of Attraction Reunion: Preview

[12:01–17:07]

• Exclusive audio trailer: explosive scenes and tearful admissions, “I don’t deserve to date someone who texts me, ‘I feel disgusting with you.’” [12:54]
• Susie’s thoughts on most compelling cast members: “Jorge was hysterical… Derek, cutie pie, hot, hot. Great skin.” [15:53]
• Promises of wild storylines: “It’s going to be a reunion you’re not going to want to miss.” – Nick [17:07]

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4. Deep Dive: Taylor, Dakota, & The Reality TV Spiral with Therapy Jeff

[20:32–67:44]

Guest Introduction: Therapy Jeff

• Licenced therapist, 20+ year practice, social media educator.
• Bachelor fan, self-described pop culture junkie.

Unpacking the Taylor & Dakota Crisis

• Context: A disturbing video surfaced showing alleged domestic abuse between Dakota and Taylor, leading to The Bachelorette being pulled by networks just before air.
• Jeff’s hot take: “Both of them are kind of suffering from this high insight, low change situation… they understand themselves, but when rubber hits the road, they don’t change.” [23:16]

Definitions & Explainers:

• DARVO: Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender. “No, I didn’t do it—you did. Actually, I’m the victim.” – Therapy Jeff [27:13]
• Reactive Abuse: When someone chronically manipulates another until they snap; context for Taylor & Dakota is muddy because Taylor has similar patterns in other relationships too.
• “Reactive abuse does not cancel out personal accountability… it just adds context.” – Therapy Jeff [33:10]

Power Dynamics, Manipulation & Weaponized Victimhood

• Dakota’s “strategic” use of evidence vs. Taylor’s “trauma response.”
• Nick: “He had the wherewithal while stools are being thrown to pull out his camera…” [35:17]
• Discussion of gendered safety perceptions: “I think every woman feels… like on a first date with a strange man who in most situations is twice their size.” – Nick [34:53]
• Dakota’s transcripted “Save a rose for me” move before Taylor films the Bachelorette, described by Jeff as a subtle, psychological power play.

Addiction, Accountability, and the Threat of More Scandal

• Dakota’s alleged continuing leverage: “He’s addicted to her now. He’s her drug.” – Therapy Jeff [41:40]
• A group consensus that no party should be let "off the hook," but the show and network are faced with a content–ethics dilemma.

Industry & Morality in Reality TV

• Discussion of blurred lines between “acting” bad for producers and real, harmful behavior.
• Who is the adult in the room? Is anyone watching out for the participants’ real lives?

“Those are all really good questions. … Who’s actually got the real frontal lobe that knows what’s going on, that can give everybody a reality check? I’m not sure anybody there is doing that.” – Therapy Jeff [51:17]

Jordan, Jessi, Chase, and Utah Drama

• Messy web: phone break-ins, DMs, voice memos, Finsta framing and accusations—comments called out for possibly narcissistic, sociopathic, or power-driven intent [54:06].
• Mary: “It’s no longer about the relationship dynamic. It’s about, ‘here’s this power I hold over you… You’re gonna do what I want.’ And that’s what feels so icky about it.” [57:14]

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5. Parasocial Relationships and Viewer Psychology

[57:43–62:20]

• The impact of audience–cast relationships (“parasocial bonds”).
• Therapy Jeff on why online attention is a void: “It feels really good… but you have to get more and more and more of it to start feeling like it’s actually making a difference, but it never does.” [59:35]
• Taylor’s cycle: audience as surrogate parental validation.
• Miranda’s mature, non-exploitative response is praised as rare “machine mature” behavior. [61:44–62:00]

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6. Reality TV Messes: Summer House, Beverly Hills, and More

[72:48–86:29]

Summer House Drama: Amanda/Wes/Sierra Triangle

• Amanda and Wes’s “hook up” rumors dissected; group wonders if it’s real or an elaborate April Fool’s ruse.
• Both possible truths (it’s real/it’s fake) are called “fucked up” for Sierra, Amanda, and fans [75:44].
• Notable: Lindsay, KJ, etc., fueling rumors with posts and “inside jokes.”
• “If it is fake, it feels kind of fucked up.” – Nick [75:10]

Real Housewives Debate: Sarah Michelle Geller v. Andy Cohen

• Sarah Michelle Geller says Beverly Hills is boring; Andy Cohen claps back.
• Discussion on tone and expectations for “aloof” vs. “raw” reality TV, cast defensiveness, and audience expectations.
• “When it happens to you, you’re never seeing things clearly. You know, it just hits differently.” – Nick [81:14]

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7. Company Retreat: Behind the Scenes with Alex Bonifur

[87:01–113:13]

• Alex details the immersive, world-building prep required: “There was a customer hotline, LinkedIn pages—so if Anthony started Googling…, that world was created.” [90:33]
• Every line was improvised: “There was no scripted dialogue.” – Alex [94:13]
• Keeping the mark (Anthony, “the hero”) safe and never the butt of the joke—a tightrope balance for cast and producers.
• Fun BTS: Taco Bell sauce improv, handling nerves, and the joy/fear of the big reveal.
• Outtakes: The “earn job” joke was improvised and made the trailer, proud moment for Alex.

Notable quote: “We were going to throw him one great big surprise party. … That made it a lot easier to tell this super massive little white lie.” – Alex [107:59]

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NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS (WITH TIMESTAMPS)

• “Both of them are suffering from this high insight, low change sort of situation… It feels like they understand what is going on with them, emotionally and in their psyche … but when the rubber hits the road, they don’t change.”
  – Therapy Jeff [23:16]

• “DARVO stands for deny, attack, reverse victim, and offender… It fits more cleanly in a situation like Alex and Ashley from Love is Blind…”
  – Therapy Jeff [27:13]

• “He is actually the victim in that video. He is getting attacked by her, but…he sits on it, and this is kind of a pattern of his—he times when he releases stuff. He’s really good at weaponizing his victimhood.”
  – Therapy Jeff [30:02]

• “Reactive abuse does not cancel out personal accountability. … Even if there was some reactive abuse going on there for Taylor, it’s still very upsetting to watch her throw stools and watch one of them hit her kid, 100%.”
  – Therapy Jeff [33:39]

• “It’s so weird. … As a fan and I think fans watching Mormon wives on Hulu, you have this specific lens.”
  – Therapy Jeff [44:48]

• “Those are all really good questions…Who’s actually got the real frontal lobe that knows what’s going on … I’m not sure anybody there is doing that. So everyone’s kind of being exploited at a certain level.”
  – Therapy Jeff [51:17]

• “You have to hold different versions of Taylor at the same time—and especially online, we’re so black and white, so we want to throw her under the bus or totally defend her. … It’s incredibly difficult to untie the parasocial relationship that we have with all of these people.”
  – Therapy Jeff [64:44]

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FINAL THOUGHTS & TAKEAWAYS

• The Mormon Wives drama, The Bachelorette hiatus, and Summer House allegations are reshaping what audiences expect from and forgive in reality TV.
• Real-life consequences for reality stars, and the audience’s blurred line between entertainment and exploitation, came up repeatedly.
• The need for “adults in the room”—on both the TV and fan side—was a recurring theme.

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UPCOMING CONTENT & PLUGS

• Age of Attraction reunion drops March 31, 7pm ET/4pm PT on YouTube.
• Next episode: Recap of the reunion, coverage of ongoing drama, and new Reality Recap topics.
• Company Retreat, starring guest Alex Bonifur, streaming now on Amazon Prime.

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For more: Find Therapy Jeff on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube. Watch Company Retreat on Amazon Prime.

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This summary was prepared for listeners seeking a thorough, engaging look into major discussion points, memorable quotes, expert insights, and the timely intersection of reality entertainment and real life within today’s pop culture landscape.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

You're crazy.

[A]

What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another fantastic episode of the Vile Files Reality Recap edition. I'm your host Nick, joined by my wonderful wife Natalie. We got the household here with us. Back in Los Angeles, Susie Evans joins us along with Mary Leia. Are you on the mic as well? Are you here a little bit?

[C]

I'm here a little bit.

[A]

You're existing.

[B]

She's around.

[A]

How's everyone doing? Did you guys have a great weekend?

[D]

Yeah, I went to the beach.

[B]

Oh hell yeah.

[D]

I know I haven't been since last year. Nice Los Angeles living okay.

[B]

Do you was it was a good beach day? Did you get in the ocean, did you feel reborn?

[D]

I passed out. Like, I at one point was literally like, was I drugged? Like, I just got super sleepy and was face down and like, just in the sand, in. On my towel in the sand. And there's lots of pictures of, like, everyone having fun, and I'm just, like, laying in the background. But I love a beach nap and I just can't help it. But it was, like, it was great. I love going. I just. I don't know.

[E]

It's.

[B]

What.

[D]

What's the month?

[B]

Is it. It's not quite.

[D]

Not quite April, but I'm in at the beach in March, you know, like, beautiful spring. Beautiful. Yeah.

[B]

How are your guys, weekends?

[A]

I had a great weekend. I don't know. Did you have a great weekend? I had a great week.

[E]

I had a great weekend. You know when it's just like, perfect weather and like, everything, you know, you're eating, like, good food and I was cooking up a storm, Nick was cooking up a storm. And river was what you guys made on Saturday.

[A]

I made some braised beef short ribs, and we made some tacos with that savory meat that was delicious.

[E]

I made out, ate in the backyard,

[A]

you know, made some smash burgers and then the favorite. You know how I don't know about you. Like, we. We live by grocery stores, so, like, we don't, like, grocery shop for like a week. We're pretty busy lives, you know, so we'll grocery shop for like, a couple meals here or there, you know, and then sometimes you're like, I don't feel like grocery shopping. You have, like, random items, but you don't have, like, a full meal. Yeah, you know, Totally. So, like, last night we're like, what do you want to do? And I'm like, I went grocery shopping the other day and I brought, like. I bought like, a random steak because, you know, sirloin was on sale, you know, So I got. I had a piece of steak. I randomly decided to buy a block of aged cheddar cheese. I had that.

[B]

Wow. Okay.

[A]

We had some sourdough. Nally had like, we. But usually with steak, I would cook like a vegetable, you know, like a. Like a Brussels sprout or an asparagus, but we didn't have that. So I prepped the steak. The same old gorgeous, beautiful, tasty steak. And then we had the sourdough. And I made the most delicious steak sandwich I've ever had in my life.

[E]

Wow.

[B]

With the aged cheddar?

[A]

With the aged cheddar. And I grilled it on the griddle, you know, like buttered the bread, you know, very like grilled cheese on aque.

[E]

He did not make me one, so I didn't get one, but. What? Yeah, well, because she didn't give me a bite.

[A]

He had the sweet potato.

[E]

It's crazy. I thought he was like, God, it's so good. It's so good. I shouldn't, like, want to take some from him. I'll just wait till he. He's like giving River a couple bites. I'm like, oh. He's like, babe, this is so good. You got to try. Never did. So I was like, you know what? I'll let him have his sandwich.

[A]

Oops.

[B]

He just knew. He knew you. You got three people who wanted that steak.

[E]

He's like, here, you need your protein. Here's the leftover steak from my steak sandwich. You can chew on for all that protein you need. I know you got low iron right now, but here you go. Yeah, but I found. I had ordered. I thought we would have like a birthday party forever for her second birthday. And so I was gonna do this whole like, tea for two or something like that. That was like, gonna be the whatever. So I'd ordered all this like Amazon decor and stuff, and I ordered this bounce house. And it ended up being like a little bit bigger than I thought it was. And so it's a beautiful day on Sunday. It's a full bounce house. It was a beautiful day on Sunday. I'm like, we should blow up the bounce house. And it's like, oh, Jesus Christ. So we blow it up. She's literally. She's in heaven. I text the next door neighbors who's got a four year old and a two year old little girl, and I send her a picture and I'm like, if y' all want to join. She's like, be over in 10 minutes. And the whole time River's like, my friends are here, my friends are here. And she's just like, she's like bouncing with to girls in a bounce house house now.

[A]

Natalie and I are currently having a battle of River's development. Natalie, you know, being the mother figure, pregnant with twins, she's struggling with the savoring these moments with river, you know, like, she doesn't want to lose her baby, which is understandable. I think a lot of parents, especially mothers, relate. Me being the dad figure, I'm just like thinking, hey, if you're going to do it, do it right. So any type of like, progress, I'm like, rooting for. And River's like, speaking more and more, she has these. She's. River's already a horse girl. Full on horse girl. Obsessed with horses. And we. We have horses in the fam. So she's just. She's locked in. She's a horse girl. I don't know what that means. I think it means a lot. I don't know. But she's.

[E]

I think horse girls got a bad rep and now they're like getting their. They're having their reborn rejuvenation.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Horse girls are being reclaimed.

[E]

So Taylor Swift, Miley Cyrus. I mean, are two horse girls that are just so.

[A]

Thank God she has a toy horse.

[C]

She.

[A]

It's Peanut and it's named Peanut. The horse's name is Peanut.

[E]

All of her horses are named after the horses at my sister's house.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

That she's like met and touched. The way that she would say Peanut is Pia. That's just how she said it. She'd say for breakfast she would want a waffle with Pia. And that was a waffle with peanut butter on and like, got it.

[A]

Peanut was Pia.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

A banana. A nana with. With Pia.

[A]

And then the other night, I'm putting her to bed, I'm reading her the book. She wants me to grab Peanut, her toy horse. She goes, pia. And then she goes peanut. And she corrected herself sad. And I was like, dope. And I'm like, hell yeah, Peanut. So now she like, well, I like, if she says she goes back and forth now and Nally is like, don't correct her.

[E]

Like she has heard the rest of her life to say peanut. Right? Like, this is what's so cute is like being able to be like, oh, and this, like, I have this running list of the things that she says and how she says them. And like her calling a drink an icy cold cold. Like one day she's gonna be like, dad, can you give me the water bottle?

[D]

Boring.

[A]

No, we're gonna keep icy cold.

[B]

Wait, icy cold's pretty cool.

[D]

You guys should do a video diary like annually and like bring something into frame and be like, what is this called? Pia. And then like every year, ask her these cute, like, nuances and see how she changes and ask her questions like, what's her favorite thing to do? What's your favorite place to go? Yes, you should do that. You guys have all the equipment.

[E]

We really do.

[D]

We could set her in here. That would be so cute.

[A]

Well, we do have a jam packed episode for you. There is so many topics for us to unpack. It does feel like the Reality TV world is on fire with just so much drama. Obviously, we have so much to still cover and unpack as it relates to the Bachelorette. Taylor, Frankie Paul. We have a really great guest. I'm excited to bring him on Therapy Jeff. Jeff is a licensed therapist and he has a lot of great content talking about, obviously, you know, therapy and just kind of giving clinical definitions of these themes that a lot of people are discussing. Obviously, when we get into the Taylor, Frankie Paul and the Dakota of it all, there's a lot, you know, a lot of nuance. Obviously, there's a lot of interest. What's going on? I'm hearing more and more things from the people I know about the potential future of the Bachelorette. Will it come back? Will it not? The future of Mormon wives? Lots unpack. We obviously have the summer house drama. Is it real? Is it not? If you don't know what we're talking about. A lot of allegations on the street between Amanda and Wes potentially hooking up. Now we have cast members chiming in and we'll certainly dive into that. We also pretty excited the Age of Attraction reunion does finally premiere tomorrow at 7pm Eastern on YouTube, 4pm Pacific for all you people who are anxiously attached as we find out in a reunion that one cast member is. And you want to hear the audio version that will drop as usual. So super excited for everyone to check that out. We also want to dive a little bit into the finale of Age of Attraction before we get to Jeff. And then after that. And then we have Andy Cohen's feuding with Sarah Michelle Geller. She kind of has gone out there and talking about maybe she's just not quite enjoying Beverly Hills Housewives as much as some of the other franchise. And Mr. Andy Cohen is taking a little offense to that, which I see both sides. You know, the truth is when it happens to you, you know, it just, it hits different. And it's so fascinating when you're involved in the drama versus being a spectator. So we'll talk about that. And then we have Alex Bonifor. If you aren't watching Company Retreat, you. We all heard of Jury Duty. Company treat is their season two. It's just as good. At the first season, we have Alex, who plays Dougie on company retreat. I was so. This is an amazing guy. He was so funny. We laughed so hard. It's. We have so much fun talking. Alex, you're not going to want to miss this. If you, if you watch Jury Duty, if you're watching Company Retreat, just like how they make this show is so fast. Fascinating. For anyone who isn't familiar with it. It's all a bunch of actors, mostly improv actors, and they have one person, a civilian who has no idea what's going on. And they immerse this person into a world and create this entire TV show with these kind of outrageous things happening. I'm a tough laugh. And this show just really, it's such a feel good show. But anyways, we have Alex with us. It's a great interview, all of that and so much more. This episode, don't forget the Vile Files plus is now ad free along with some amazing content that you get to listen to. All our deep dives where we really dive deep into your favorite reality TV topics, like obviously, the Bachelor, the Mormon wives, the Summer house drama. We'll be getting into the weeds this week with all of that drama. Unpacking even deeper conversations. We have our pop extra. We get a roundup of all your favorite pop culture topics we didn't have time for during reality recap. Plus your update specials, all your favorite updates from your favorite Ask Nick calls and more. Be sure to sign up. Go to viles.com you will be glad that you did.

[B]

Well, just in case you guys live under a rock and somehow haven't seen the Age of Attraction trailer, which, like, what are you doing? But here it is.

[A]

Welcome to the Age of Attraction season one reunion. How many couples are still together? Raise your hands. Looks like Pfeiffer's not here. Does anyone know where she is?

[F]

I don't really feel comfortable, like airing this out.

[B]

All right, well, that's why we're here.

[E]

John, is there anything you would like to clear up in this moment?

[F]

What was it about, John?

[A]

Speak your truth.

[D]

You took that from me.

[F]

I mean, we have gone through a lot of shit.

[E]

I don't want to cry.

[D]

If you think he was there to find love, go ahead and raise your hands.

[A]

You guys are, in fact, engaged. I don't deserve to date someone who texts me. I feel disgusting with you.

[C]

You know, it's not easy.

[E]

Libby, how'd you feel? God, I didn't expect to get emotional. I'm hoping that people can see this

[B]

and feel like this is okay.

[A]

Do you feel like you've both been able to really show up and be a team in those difficult moments?

[E]

In my mind, you are literally like my husband, like there is nothing else.

[A]

I cried so hard.

[C]

An area that I've been weak. She's able to help me get through.

[A]

Has anyone had an issue with your Age difference.

[C]

I almost didn't come out this week to la.

[E]

You're like gaslighting a little bit.

[A]

I'm not gaslighting anyone, Theresa.

[D]

Oh, and it was really, really sad watching that back.

[B]

It was.

[A]

Guys, I'm not. I'm just. I'm just. Your words, man. I'm just.

[F]

You hear what I'm saying, and I'll speak for you.

[E]

I never said that.

[A]

Four days in, I wanted to go home, tell him how it is now. Why are you laughing, Derek?

[E]

That wasn't it at all.

[A]

Well, shit.

[C]

Like, that's something that I probably needed to know.

[E]

You don't want to say anything?

[F]

I don't know.

[A]

No.

[E]

You honestly didn't like Leah?

[A]

I'm going to defend my woman or any woman in my life, period.

[F]

Period.

[E]

Have you met his daughters?

[D]

I have not.

[E]

Why? Why not? And he was yelling from afar at y' all to start.

[C]

No.

[A]

Absolutely not. How. And I love to hear so.

[E]

And you want to air all of our dirty laundry?

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

Is there a chance you guys could get back together? It's giving kind of a Telemundo kind of drama.

[B]

Telenovela.

[A]

Telenovela, yeah. Anyways, it's. It's a fantastic reunion, if I do say so myself. The couples that left the Age of Attraction show together were Theresa, John. Just for a reminder, we had Derek and Pfeiffer. Leah and Chris broke up. We have Libby and Andrew and Logan and Vanessa. So you'll definitely get a. Where are they now? And Jorge and Vanille. So we get into all those couples, we get into all the drama that happened on the show, but mostly it's a lot of like, where are they now? What's happened between the time we stopped filming to today? Lots to unpack, lots to get into. All the drama you're going to want and more. The conversations between Chris and Leah are wild. John and Teresa, you are going to to see that conversation. It is definitely riveting. Super excited for you all to see it. It is on YouTube. I know a lot of people are confused. It's not on Netflix, but we are very grateful for the Netflix family to allow us to host this reunion. And hopefully it's going to be exactly what you want in a reunion, nothing less. And very, very excited for you guys to all see it. Susie, I'm curious, who are you most interested in getting updates from and why?

[D]

Okay. Well, I was at the Age of Attraction wrap party and I met a lot of the cast. The swag in person hits different, you guys. And I don't I really don't know spoilers, because I like to respect people's privacy. So I didn't ask too personal of questions, but I thought Jorge was hysterical. And just from the trailer, I'm like, oh, I just know they're about to get into it. Derek, Cutie pie.

[B]

Hot, hot. Great skin.

[D]

I think the world wants to know, is he single or are they together? Because

[A]

tune in to find out.

[D]

Tune in because in person, the vibes are high, you guys.

[B]

Very charismatic guy.

[D]

Yeah. Give me two drinks and I'll ask for a selfie.

[B]

You know what I mean? He seems kind.

[D]

Yes, he does seem kind. Yeah, he seems very kind.

[B]

Yeah, Jorge and I kind of had beef. He clocked me.

[D]

Oh, he. It was you he was talking about. Were you on the couch at some point?

[A]

He was very upset by Mary's comment. Mary, the ladies. He didn't think. He was, like, upset that they took the Vanille side in the great what happened on the streets of Vancouver debate, which we really get into with Jorge and Vanel at the reunion.

[D]

Yeah, I can't wait.

[B]

But he pulled up some receipts for me. I was like, justin said, you're arguing with a defense attorney. And I said, I've seen Aaron Brockovich.

[D]

Yeah, he clocked you to me. He was like, I had words for your girl. I was like, who? I was like, which girl? Like, I don't know who you're talking about. And he was like, I had to

[A]

be like, jorge, I don't care. Yeah, you know.

[B]

Yeah, I thought it was awesome.

[D]

Yeah, they have great energy, like, great casting. Yeah, it was just like a fun. So I can't wait. I honestly just want to know who's still together. Yeah. It's so fascinating.

[A]

It's going to be a reunion you're not going to want to miss. And you will all be talking about it. We will obviously, on Thursday's episode of Reality Recap, share our thoughts about what goes down at the reunion. And I'm sure there'll be a lot of opinions, a lot of people agreeing and disagreeing with our takes, which we can't wait for. But up next, we bring in therapy Jeff to help us break down all the drama that's going on in the world of the Bachelorette, Taylor, Frankie Paul, Mormon wives, and really looking forward to this conversation. Like with the Emily's last week, we are trying to obviously have these conversations, recognizing that it's not just reality TV drama. These are real lives with real people in very serious situations. So obviously there is a fascination we will continue to talk about it, but we want to bring in people like Jeff who have a level of expertise beyond like what we're reading on the Internet and just people's hot takes about therapy speak and things like that. Really grateful to have someone like Jeff to help us guide us through this conversation. So without further ado, therapy, Jeff Owning a home is exciting, but it's also stressful because at some point a home system or appliance will break. Many homeowners experienced a breakdown in the last year, and without a home warranty, repairs can get expensive fast. That's why a home warranty from American Home Shield is such a smart move. American Home Shield helps protect your wallet from covered home systems and appliance breakdowns, no matter how old they are. From H VAC and plumbing to electrical systems and kitchen appliances, they've got a plan for you when things go wrong. No system or appliance is too old for AHS coverage. And as an added benefit to select plans, American Home Shield offers a video chat feature that lets you connect with a live repair expert to help assess or even fix an issue over the phone, which can be a huge help when you're not sure what's wrong. Don't worry. B Warranty listeners can get 20 off select plans today. Just visit ahs.com via files to sign up. See ahs.com contracts for coverage details, including service fees, limitations and exclusions. If you're like me and trying to stay consistent with your fitness and nutrition without overthinking it, David's Protein bars make it easy. High protein, great flavors and perfect for busy days when you still want to feel good about what you're eating. David's is a protein bar that redefines what's possible. David gives you the protein you need without the unnecessary extras, providing 18 grams of protein and just 150 calories and 0 sugar. Unlike traditional protein bars, which are loaded with low value calories and excess sugar, David helped me hit the things the other bars weren't delivering. Plus, you just avoid the shakes, you know, especially if you're someone who is on the go or just like doesn't want to make protein powders. The David protein bars are super easy and convenient. Typical protein bars 20 grams of protein, 350 calories and 20 grams of sugar. But David protein bars have 28 grams of protein, 150 calories and 0 grams of sugar. This equates to 75% of calories from protein CFP, the highest protein to calorie ratio of any leading bar on the market. There are eight core flavors. Chocolate chip cookie dough, Peanut butter, chocolate chip chunk, my favorite, Salted peanut butter, fudge brownie, cinnamon roll, Blueberry pie, Red velvet and cake batter. Most protein bars are packed with excess calories and sugar, but David's is different, delivering the most protein with the fewest calories. Don't just take my word for it. Go grab one for yourself. Head to Walmart today to try a bar and stock up on a four count of your favorite flavors like blueberry pie and salted peanut butter sold exclusively at Walmart. Check out Walmart.com to find a store near you. Jeff, welcome to the show.

[F]

Yeah, happy to be here.

[A]

Great to have you. I think many of us listening or watching have seen your great content online. I know I've been following you for years now and really enjoy your perspective, especially in an age where, you know, therapy speak has kind of taken over the Internet. And I think it's like this balance of we all want to educate ourselves and we all want to, like, feel like we've developed as humans and we're learning. But at some of us, sometimes we feel like we've gotten a little out of control and now we're like misusing terms and things like that. So it's always great to have someone like yourself give us clinical definitions and explain the why behind some of the things that we so often talk about before we dive into all these conversations going on centered around Taylor, Frankie, Paul, Dakota, Mormon wives, the Bachelorette. Can you just give for the people who aren't familiar with you a little bit about your background and your area of expertise? Jeff?

[F]

Sure. Yeah. I've been a therapist for a little over 20 years now. I primarily work with individuals and couples. My specialty used to be working with people that felt really, really anxious in relationships and what that does to them, how they show up in relationships. But I've been seeing couples and families now for, yeah, for 20 years. And I've been posting content on TikTok for about five years now.

[A]

You seem like also a part of in pop culture. I've seen some of your content talking about, you know, this whole Taylor, Frankie, Paul and Dakota situation. Have you always been a fan of reality TV and pop culture?

[F]

I have been. I've always been a fan. I've actually the first reality show that I was a huge fan of was the Bachelor. Okay. So I was a fan of yours for a while, but I've watched every season ever since it premiered. And I'm a little disappointed that we don't get this recent one.

[A]

Yeah, I think we'll get into it as we we get into this conversation, but it's still unclear whether we will see this season. I think reports recently came in and now they're going to allow us to maybe see get to know the men a little bit more. Bachelor Happy Hour is their official podcast, which is, you know, is interesting. It sounds like they might be interviewing these men. I don't suspect we're going to get much of a tell all in terms of like, what went down filming. My guess is that they're going to use this as an opportunity. There obviously is a lot of interest centered around these men. There's just a lot of interest in general regarding the show. So my guess is it will be like, where are you from? You know, all those intro packages we used to see, you know, in the Bachelorette? I'm guessing it's a lot of that, but it's certainly at least it's something, I guess. Jeff, let's start with just from your perspective. How have you been seeing this entire situation, starting with, like, why the Bachelor was canceled. Obviously we saw that very horrifying video between Dakota and Taylor. But just before I dive into my questions, I would just love to your overall perspective from how you see things playing out.

[F]

I'm rooting for Dakota and Taylor. I find them both to be really likable in lots of different ways and also kind of scary and concerning in other ways. I think both of them are kind of suffering from like this high insight and low change sort of situation where even on your podcast and when they talk to the camera or they do interviews or they do reunions, it really feels like they understand what is going on with them, like emotionally and in their psyche and the way that they. I don't think that they're kind of using therapy speak in an, like, in a non. In a genuine way. I think they're using it in a way because they go to therapy, they understand themselves, they have a bunch of insight. But I think part of the problem is that they talk about their insight so much that it feels like change in a way, or it feels like they could change, but when the rubber hits the road, they don't change and it feels really upsetting. And then they have this, like, abuse pattern that they cycle through over and over again. So, yeah, I'm rooting for them. I also see myself. I think we all see ourselves in them a little bit, so we can connect with things that they do or we can feel really let down by the decisions that they make sometimes. So there's also, like, this parasocial relationship to it that really gets us glued to them.

[A]

Yeah. You made a really interesting video about our relationship as fans to. In this kind of parasocial relationship. I want to ask you about as we continue this conversation. One thing I wanted to ask you about, which kind of drove me to thinking you'd be a great guest, is certainly the dust hasn't settled, but it's settling, right? You know, we went from this kind of crazy few days. You know, this video came out. The Bachelor got canceled a lot of. Just, like, it was an intense. For obviously the people involved, but even for the fans, it was. There's this intensity now the dust is kind of settling. There's almost this quiet period of us all kind of speculating about what may or may not happen next, but also, like, speculating about these relationships and what's kind of led to all this happening. I'm seeing a lot of conversations online, and I'm hearing words like reactive abuse. I'm also hearing words like darvo. I feel like I have a general understanding of what they might mean, but I would love to hear your perspective and your clinical dev definition of this, and then maybe we can dive into with what the people saying that they're seeing patterns of reactive abuse and this relationship between Dakota and Taylor. What I am hearing is that there is this sentiment that this relationship, obviously, between Dakota and Taylor has been going on for a while now. Now we know that. I mean, the show's been centered around that. But I think what we're realizing now that I don't think, as the average fans knew and even people who knew, like I knew Dakota and Taylor, I was not under the impression that it was as dark as it seems to be. And there is this sentiment with everyone I've talked to connected to this circle, that they've been in each other's company. And there is a feeling that this video that Dakota recorded, this is a theme, I guess. And I think there are people speculating there may be more content out there. I don't know what's on it. Who knows? We get into the whole conversation that Jesse had on the Call Her Daddy podcast, where she talked about Jordan making threats and suggesting blackmailing her. You know, there's these voice memos from Harry Jowsey, and she has this story. You know, Jordan sent it to himself, and there, again, you get into this kind of pattern almost with these men of dad talk or. Or, you know, is. You see Dakota and Jordan Talking and. And almost like comparing notes. Anyways, we're getting into the weeds here. Can you start, Jeff, by what is reactive abuse? What is darvo? And do those definitions apply at all with what you're potentially seeing with these characters?

[F]

Yeah, let's get into the definition. But I also want to say that Dakota and Taylor, their relationship is so complicated and nuanced and layered that these definitions don't cleanly fit into their situation. And they both kind of, like, have a role that they're playing here. So Darvo stands for deny, attack, reverse victim, and offender. So it's like, no, I didn't do it. You did it. Actually, I'm the victim. It fits more cleanly. Like, Darvo fits more cleanly in something like. Like, Alex and Ashley from Love is Blind, where, like, Ashley is saying, like, hey, your timeline. Alex is really weird. What's going on there? And Alex is like, whoa, whoa. I don't know what you're talking about. Like, I have a normal life, and. And you're being really weird asking me questions. And actually, do you want me to, like, show you the receipts? I feel attacked. Like, it's just, like, Ashley is just like, what's going on here? And Alex is, like, being all Darvo about it. The problem with Dakota and Taylor, they have their own versions of it. So Dakota, I would say, is more strategic about his. His Darvo. Like, it's more like a manipulation tool. So when he gets vulnerable, I think that his vulnerability looks really real. Like, oh, I'm sorry.

[A]

I lied.

[F]

I shouldn't have done that. I should have been more transparent. Then he starts to cry or get teary, and that feels really compelling. But that could also be seen as, like, him doing a little bit of denial and then a little bit of attack, because we're kind of, like, getting sucked into his story. And then he can be very specific about the timing of his stuff. Like, the timing of, like, I think, are we all on the same page now? That, like, he was probably the one who, like, released the video and gave. Gave it to tmz.

[A]

Yeah. We had Emily D. Baker and Emily Longeretta from Variety on last week. Specifically, Emily D. Baker painted what seemed to be a pretty clear picture that Dakota owned the ip. So whether it came directly from him or he worked with maybe lawyers or a third party or a friend, I think there is speculation amongst this group if, you know, he went through some of the other men. But it does seem clear that it starts with Dakota. And I guess, back to you. I'm curious for You, Jeff, from a therapist perspective, is there anything to make of the timing in which this video is released, knowing that, if nothing else, Dakota certainly knew this video existed. He certainly knew it was on this. On this video. And, you know, again, that video was horrifying. There's no justification for what you see in the video. But given the timing when it was released and what seems to be strategy around it, does that play into any of these conversations around Darvo or reactive abuse? Can we. Can we glean anything from that?

[F]

I think when we can, like, you watch the video, and it seems. It feels very obvious, and I stand behind this, that he's the victim in that situation. But he's. He's, like, you know, conscious enough to know to, like, pull out his phone and start recording. He sits on that video for a while, and then he weaponizes his victimhood at the exact right time and releases it three days before the Bachelorette is supposed. Supposed to premiere. So he. He is actually the victim in that video. He is getting, like, attacked by her, and then he sits on it, and. And this is kind of a pattern of his where he times when he releases stuff. So he's, like, really good at weaponizing his victimhood, and that's why it's so hard to pin him down or be like, he's just Darvo, but he's, like, more of a sophisticated, manipulative Darvo. While Taylor, she could also qualify for Darvo, Deny, attack, and reversing victim and offender, but she's more reactive. I think her Darvo response is more of, like, a trauma response. It comes from feeling flooded. It's not calculated like Dakota's is. She's, like, really dysregulated. She can't hold complexity. She's like, this is your fault. What's going. This is all your fault. Right. And she's. She's totally hijacked in the moment.

[A]

You know, Taylor's come out and has accused Dakota of being abusive. You know, that has been said by Taylor's side of things. What I've heard from people, multiple people, is that she didn't film anything because she never thought that way. And when it was him, for whatever reason he did, There's a sentiment amongst this group of people that he had the wherewithal to know when to pull out the camera, so to speak. And it's just. It's really hard to digest and talk about with nuance because, again, you. You don't want to let one person off the hook by acknowledging maybe some other actions on the other side of things. And it's. It's really tricky, right?

[F]

Yeah, yeah. He. He is able to regulate his nervous system better than she can, and he uses that. And we can even, like, talk a little bit about how that's. That's. That's his power in a certain way. But reactive abuse, again, this is where it gets really murky. Reactive abuse is. Has, like, been chronically provoked, gaslit, or lied to, manipulated over, like, a sustained period of time. And he does lie and gaslight her and manipulate her until she eventually explodes. But the problem is that, like, in reactive abuse, typically, if you want to. If you want to look at it cleanly, that's kind of, like the only pattern that goes on. Somebody is lying, manipulating, gaslighting, until the other person is all of a sudden, like, snaps. And then you point at that person, maybe this case Taylor, and you're like, whoa, whoa. Oh, my God. You're being crazy. You're abusing me. The fact is that, like, Taylor also acts like this in other relationships. Not, like, as severe, but we've seen her, like, lose her shit before. Like, she can get really mad at other people as well. So that's why it doesn't fit very cleanly. It's not just Dakota provoking her and then Taylor reacting. And you said this, but I feel like it's important to say reactive abuse does not cancel personal. Like, does not cancel out personal accountability. Right. It just sort of, like, adds some context. So even if there was some reactive abuse going on there for Taylor, it's still very upsetting to watch her throw stools and watch one of them hit her kid 100%.

[A]

There's this video going around. You know, we're seeing a lot of old videos being popped up, having kind of different context behind them and people just at least looking at them differently. And I saw this video. It's. It's a Of. It's a video of Dakota filming, and he talks about, there's only one person in this world who can, like, put me in my place. I'm paraphrasing. And she's 5, 4, £100. You know, again, this is a nuanced and kind of a difficult question to even try to frame. I've been blessed to have an audience of women. I work around a lot of women. I have sisters. I have my wife. I hear their stories. We talk about dating. And there is this. Especially nowadays, men out there, you know, sometimes want to be like, what about me? I have struggles. I. You know, I've been treated badly. In relationships, I've been verbally abused. I've been, you know, I've been physically abused. Like men and women can, obviously, we've learned, can both be abusive. No doubt. You hear a lot of stories like, from women just like when they go on first dates. Like the fears and concerns that women have are very different from men. You know, there's usually like this kind of sentiment. So it's like, well, your date couldn't kill you with their bare hands type of sentiment, which is like, that's a, you know, that's a real feeling. And I think as a, as a, as a 6 to 200 pound man, I usually have never been in situations where I realize that my, I'm in a potential vulnerable environment if the person I trust turns out to be someone I can't. And I think I feel like that's almost how like every woman feels. Like on a first date with a strange man who in most situations is twice their size.

[E]

Not even a first date. Just like anytime you go anywhere and you're like, is this person following me? Is this person staring at me for too long? Just like always on edge.

[A]

And again, this is not to take away that women can't be abusive, but like, how do you read a situation where you have this very tiny woman in this very, what appears to be a physically violent relationship? And like you mentioned that Dakota had the wherewithal while stools are being thrown to pull out his camera. And I'm just like, how do you analyze that situation, Jeff, with the nuance that it potentially deserves?

[F]

Yeah, there's so much going on here. Yeah, like you're mentioning, there's just sort of like this inherent power that a man has. Dakota, stronger, bigger. If he wanted to, he could like physically harm her quickly. So that's always kind of like hanging in the air there. But also Taylor does have a specific type of power. So Taylor has like a public power. Taylor is the famous one. Maybe like the more famous one. She has the platform, the income. The cultural moment is kind of like wrapped around Taylor. So there is some power that she's wielding. But I think that Dakota has kind of like the relational power. It's sort of like the patriarchy or like the, the, the power that's just sort of like innate in men. He has that, but also like we were saying, he has the power to be not as dysregulated. So when she gets dysregulated, now he has all the power. Now he can like pull out the phone. Now he can like craft A story. Now he can remember what's happening, but she can't because she's flooded. She has no idea what's going on. There's also kind of like. You see the power come up. And when he. When he said, like, save a rose for me right before she went off to go film the Bachelorette, that's him being like, remember me? You like me. You want me. And then they sleep together. And now she has to go film the Bachelorette. But he just. But he just got in her head. She is going to be thinking about him the whole time while she's, like, dating these other guys. That's a certain amount of power that he flexes. He knows that he can woo her and that she'll say yes because she's kind of powerless to that sort of thing. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, when. When that scene happened, and we've talked about at length, just our shock and awe of just everything about that scene, but he smirks. He smiles when they ask him the night, the next day, like, you. You see it in his face. He knows exactly what he's doing and his intention behind it. And it's just. It feels really, really icky now as we learn more about the truths about this relationship.

[F]

And that's what feels, to me, that's what feels the most dangerous about him, is that, like, in these, like, chaotic situations, he can go ahead and, like, he can regulate his nervous system and come up with a plan of how to get Taylor hooked. And Taylor, you know, she's an adult that can make adult decisions. She should, like, make better choices. But it's so hard for her to say no to him. And it's because of this, like, abuse cycle that they're trapped in, and it's because of her own abandonment wounds. We can, like, point this back to her father and, like, look at her through that lens to see how, like, Dakota is sort of pulling on those strings as well.

[A]

Yeah, I've. I've heard from a lot of people that over these course of these seasons being filmed, that Dakota has made kind of idle threats in the past where they kind of almost suggesting to the people around him. If people only knew how Taylor was with me. And. And he made a lot of these comments. And now with this video being released again, it's. It's hitting different. There's literally a scene, I think it's season two of some of the women confronting Taylor, Frankie, Paul about they even knew, you know, or suggesting there's more to the story. Story. But when you hear it from potentially coming from Dakota as a threat, and then you see this video being released. If that's true, it speaks to that kind of calculated behavior. I think the big X factor right now. Last week I was talking and I've talked to a lot of like, former producers, people who aren't like, associated with the show now, but just like very familiar with the industry. A lot of them just kind of suspected they're going to find a way. They're going to find a way to air this. Maybe it's on Hulu. The more I talk to people, the big question is if they were decide to air the Bachelorette. Bachelorette. So they cancel it. Now they. Everyone thinks it's done. Dakota released this video three days before the Bachelorette was set to premiere. And I think there's a lot of people suspecting that if he has any more information on her, who knows what's on it. But there is a feeling with the people around her that if they change their mind and find a way to air Merit, he will once again retaliate. Now that's a speculation from people close to these people. The. The feeling is there's just a lot more to this story than a lot of people are saying. I don't know exactly what that means. It seems to be centered around this relationship. But, you know, part of me honestly can't tell now that we see these women on Tick tock and moving forward, it's like between Jesse and. And making out with Chase, it's like there's still making the show in a way. It almost seems like these women are in the while facing the elimination of their show because I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that even Mormon white that mom talk survives. They seem to be doing their darndest to give us a reason to want to keep watching. And it's fascinating and I don't even know if it's right, but it is fascinating. And. Yeah. What do you think about all that, Jeff?

[F]

I going back a little bit, it feels scary thinking that, like Dakota has more videos or information that he hasn't released and that that's kind of like hanging over everybody's head of whether or not the see the Bachelorette season is going to be released. I just to give context and you know, Dakota has talked pretty openly about his addiction just so everyone knows. And I feel like people understand, but like addiction literally rewires your relationship with the truth when you're. When you're an addict and you're an addict for that long and that severely. The truth is. Is something that's sort of malleable. I think it's different. It's very difficult for his brain to actually be honest. This isn't an excuse for him. This is just sort of like understanding his psyche. So. And that. Because that's just how addiction works. Like, you. You sort of play with the truth because you're so concerned about how you're seen or your shame or how to get more drugs. So it's. It's. It's hard to kind of, like, nail down Dakota with the truth because there's always something that he's hiding. There's always going to be something that he is hiding. And he's. He's kind of talked about this before and admitted to it, but he's also. He's. Instead of being addicted to drugs, he's addicted to her now he's her drug. And it's easier for me to treat a client that's addicted to a substance than somebody who's addicted to a person, because at least you can just drop the substance, go cold turkey with that. But they have a kid, and they're never going to be able to go cold turkey. So there's always going to be something, I think, that he's going to have to be holding in his pocket that will make her look bad or make her dysregulated or hold the truth from her, because that's just how he operates. That's how he survived being an addict. That's how he's surviving being addicted to her. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah, I do, but it's. That's so dark when you frame it that way. It's. It's.

[F]

Yeah, sorry.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, but I appreciate that. That perspective, and that is the reality of the situation. It just. I'm still processing. We spent a lot of time talking about it last week. But, you know, I. Again, I come from Bachelor World, right? So my exposure to reality TV and how it's made is very much centered around that. Obviously, I've seen it being made different ways. We've talked. There's a huge spectrum. But it is. When you get into Mormon wives again, like, for all the people who want to see the show continue, for all the people who are staunch Taylor, Frankie Paul supporters, because it's just like, hey, we knew about this. She was open about it. She told us about this. And then we have a show that it really pulls no punches. Again, whatever you think about the people who produce Mormon wives, they haven't really changed how they've gone about their business and how they film this show. And they have gotten nothing up into this point other than praise from fans. They've won Emmys. They are crushing the ratings. And so it's just like, I feel like there's a lot of people on that end are almost, like, acting like they feel gaslit because it's like, wait, we weren't hiding anything. We were literally showing you everything. And yet here we are in this fork in the road with these two franchises intersecting and. And people from Bachelor Nation are just like, wait, why are we seeing a scene where she's talking about her ex finishing in a way that's not necessarily meant for network television? It's like, it's just a different show. And it's just like the way. How are the decision makers at Hulu and Disney deciding which ones they can move forward? Because I just don't know. How do they air season five without Taylor Frankie Paul in it? And if they air Taylor Frankie Paul in it, how do you air that? Pay her for it? And then what, Cancel her after that because of the video that, again, the entire show was focused on. It just gets really confusing about how us fans internalize this very real situation, but also our relationship to the show and how we've been enjoying it.

[F]

It's so weird. It's like, as a fan and I think fans watching Mormon wives on. On Hulu, you sort of. You. You have this specific lens. They're like, okay, so this is. This is how the drama unfolds. This is how people show up on. On the show. This is kind of like what we're accepting when we're watching this show. And. And that's how we sort of, like, view it. And then there's the Bachelor and the Bachelor Nation, and that's a different lens that we put on where maybe a little bit more traditional or specific about how we want people to show up on that show. And those are two different audiences, but those are also two different, like, lenses inside of us, and they're kind of, like, battling each other. And just in a similar way that maybe these networks are kind of battling each other. It's hard to wrap our head around while all this is happening. It also feels like. I don't know if this is kind of what you're getting at as well, but it feels maybe a little exploitative where we're, like, asking, like, okay, well, was Taylor Frankie Paul? Was she ready to be a reality star? And are the cameras taking advantage of this really messy Raw moment in her life. And I guess, like, the Bachelorette was sort of maybe gonna be like a redemption arc or seeing her in a different way, in a different light. And we sort of feel, or at least I personally feel kind of robbed a little bit by, like, getting to know her in even a different way. So, yeah, there's a lot going on.

[A]

Well, it's interesting because again, we were talking about this offline before we recorded the show. When it comes to being a reality TV star, again, there's this weird relationship between reality TV star and producer, right? And at the end of the day, they are making a TV show, and not everything is. It's not the Truman show. Not everything is 100%, you know, authentic. It's edited, yada, yada, yada. But there's a lot of situations I've spoke on my experiences before where, you know, in Bachelor World, it's silly, right? It's just like, famously, there was this woman named Corinne on my seize it. And, like, she really leaned into, like, being immature. So producers brought. Brought out this bouncy castle for her to jump on, and she had this nanny and blah, blah, blah. And I very reluctantly agreed to jump with her in the bouncy castle. To my everlasting regret, those conversations between cast member and producer grow something like this, they're just like, hey, man, like, just help us out here. It's like, it's not that big of a deal. Yeah, you might catch heat for it, but, like, whatever. It's not like in a defunct. And so you do these little things that you wouldn't do. It's not even who you are. It doesn't represent your character. It doesn't represent you would make a different decision if it was kind of up to you. And then you ultimately will catch heat for it. And then when you go on press tours, you're like, yeah, you try to let people know in a way that you wouldn't do it. Right? We're talking about this. It's not a crime to be silly or be youthful and jump in a bounty castle, right? But with other shows, I think with the different universes, it really gets in the weeds between, like, holding yourself accountable for what you do on. On camera versus, like, acting like you're playing a character. And I do think in some of these shows, the people making these TV shows start blurring the lines between what's actually real and what's not. Like, when you have producers egging you on to do bad behavior, there's this viral clip going around, right? Now of Jordan filming Mormon wives. And it's clear he's acting. It's like, it's clear he's doing a scene. But then do these people justify their actual bad behavior and call it a scene? It's just like. It's so fucking crazy and messy. And as someone who knows how this shit works, I can't even give a definitive answer because you have to really get inside the minds of all these different people. And they all have a. You know, they all come in with different perspectives and personalities. They all come in different expectations of what they think. Reality TV is, what the fans expect of them. What's on the line for them, like, a cast spot. In Bravo World, we're always like, did they earn a spot? Did they earn their snowflake for next season? And the pressure these people face to give good tv? And where does the accountability line draw between cast member owning their own actions and someone being like, hey, can you do this for us?

[F]

Those are all really good questions. I sort of. I think about. While you're talking about this, I think about Tom Sandoval a little bit. I mean, Tom Sandoval was, like, incredibly messy, super. Eventually, like the super villain on Vanderpump Rules. We all had a lot of feelings about him. And then he's on Traitors, and then we see him like, oh, well, he's kind of goofy. Oh, he's really silly. Or he's really good at this game, or he sings backwards really well. This is so fun, right? Like, there's. We, like, develop a different relationship with him. And in those cases, it kind of. I don't know, works where, like, maybe he was egged on and Vanderpump Rules and just sort of like, living in that environment for so many years. And then he gets this. I don't know if you want to call it like, a redemption on. On Traders. And we see him, like, yeah, we see him in, like, in a different way. There's also, like, this. This thing that happens in therapy. Like, if I'm seeing a couple and they're, like, deep in their pattern and they're. They don't even realize, like, the abuse cycle that they're caught. Me as the therapist, I'm sort of there. What we call, like, their frontal lobe, the part of their brain that, like, sees things practically and logically. And I'm like, hey, this isn't okay. That was shitty to say. You're being really mean. There's Darvo going on here. Let me tell you what's up. Like, I'm going to let you know the reality of the situation because you're so caught up in this relationship. I think the same thing sort of happens with people on reality shows where they get so caught up in these situations that they don't have full access to their frontal lo. So they rely on the producers. And the producers, they're acting as, like, the frontal lobe. The logical part of them doing, like, oh, this is okay, or this isn't okay. But the producers, they also are under a lot of pressure to create a good show. They're. They're under a lot of pressure to, like, create the drama so that the TV show is compelling. Right. So who's actually, like, got the real frontal lobe that knows what's going on, that can give everybody a reality chat tech? I'm not sure anybody there is doing that. So everyone's kind of being exploited at a certain level.

[A]

Yeah, no, I mean that. That's perfectly stated.

[G]

And.

[A]

Yeah. And as I've heard from some peers that, who have said there's. There's clearly no adults in the room.

[F]

Right.

[A]

When it comes to some of the decisions that were made as it relates to these two shows. And now again, we have the. The Jesse Draper drama. Mary, can you. Can you walk us through for anyone who doesn't know what's going on with Jesse Draper and. And Jordan and Chase and Harry Jowsey has entered, and it kind of speaks to.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, a lot of people are out there being like, are there no other men in Utah?

[B]

Yeah. So basically, if you're wondering what we're talking about, Jesse Draper did allegedly kiss Chase and then sent Miranda flowers as an apology. And the card message read, I completely understand you being upset with me, but wanted to send you a little something to let you know that I'm thinking about you and I am so, so sorry. Jesse.

[A]

It's giving, like, high school college, where it's just like, you know, you only know so many people, so everyone kind of dates everyone.

[F]

Well, that's the thing, though, right? Like, we have to take the sort of, like, Mormon culture of it all into context here. I think there's a lot of arrested development that's going on. Like, they're acting like high schoolers because they didn't get to play out their high school years when they were actually children, possibly. And so now they're doing it in front of all of us. And this should be going on in private, like, without cameras filming every single thing. So we're also kind of the. Whatever the crew or the producers or the network is, like, taking advantage of their Arrested Development, but they're actual adults that should have had, like, fully formed brains by now.

[B]

I mean, this. Miranda posted that the day of Jesse's Call Her Daddy episode as well, and there were some. This is also when Harry Josie had leaked DMs between him and Jesse Draper. And Jordan was trying to go on with. On with Dakota to Harry Jowsey's podcast. So it's all just.

[A]

Yeah, I guess he's trying very hard. We will not be having Jordan or Dakota on. For anyone who's speculating that he might come on here. I think my wife Natalie pointed out, like, we just. No one wants to hear from him.

[E]

I don't think we've heard enough, you

[A]

know, like, when it comes to Jordan, I, He. He is one of the most unappealing reality TV people who really seems to be wanting to take advantage of his. Of his future ex wife's success. But the allegations that he was trying to frame her and that he sent these voice messages to himself and then put in like a Finsta account. So it made it seem like some random person sent it to him. And in reality, he broke into his wife's phone and sent it to himself.

[E]

Like, what is that giving to you, Jeff? Like, what does that say to you?

[F]

I mean, it's giving desperation of, like, wanting to be the hero or wanting to be seen in a specific type of way. And also like, having no, I don't know, morals about it, where all of this feels very, like, play things. Like, it's giving a little bit of narcissism, like, a little bit of sociopathy, a little bit of, like, antisocial personality disorder, or just like everybody is sort of like a little puppet. You'll do whatever you're going to do in order to create the narrative that serves you most. And yeah, it's also kind of like chicken or egg thing with some of these folks. Like, do you have to be this way to kind of like, be a reality star? Or does this, like, make you this way in order to, like, survive the situation that you're in? But I. But it's. It's something that I feel like you just. It feels very suspicious and you can't trust it. And it feels really gross watching the whole thing.

[A]

Weird because, like, again, I don't. I can't be in. It's hard to be inside the heads of all these people and right on reality tv. I just remember, like, it reminds me of the Great Meatloaf Song. And I remember my Psychology when I was like doing reality tv because it was always like, I always had a line. It was like, you know, the. I'll do anything for love, but I won't do that. I just, it was always like, yeah, fine, I'll do this, fine, I'll do that. But I'm definitely not doing that. You know, it's like I remember feeling like I still had like, there were moments where I was definitely down bad. There are definitely moments as a look back being like, ah, yeah, I don't. Like, I was not in a position to be making some of these decisions, but I still always had like, I wasn't completely gone, so to speak. I always had like a moral compass. I felt like where it was like, fine, but I won't do that. And it does seem like with some of these people, they've lost that, but I won't do that. Or it almost feels like there is nothing they won't do to fuel the fire, so to speak, and feed the beast.

[D]

It feels like Jordan. Jordan doesn't actually care about the healthy relationship aspect. And it's more so about like a power dynamic. Because honestly, I think that if there's something going on in your relationship and like, you break into your spouse's phone and you go through their messages and you find something you don't like, maybe it's not ideal that you're breaking into your spouse's phone. Like, sure. But at the end of the day, if you found something you don't like, then just approach your spouse with it and be like, hey, I went into your phone and I found this. It makes me uncomfortable and we need to address this in our relationship. But instead he went this whole roundabout way of sending it to himself, pretending like a fan sent it to him allegedly. And to me, it just feels like you're using that as a way to gain power over her publicly and saying like, it's. It's not. It's no longer about the, the relationship dynamic. It's about like, here's this power I hold over you, so you're gonna do what I want. And that's. That to me is what feels so icky about it. Because I'm like, you obviously don't care about her or your relationship. You care about what you can gain from something that made you feel uncomfortable and how you can make your wife feel bad and, you know, tear her self esteem down more or blackmail her more.

[E]

Like.

[D]

That feels very problematic to me.

[B]

And your public perception is like, way important than either of those things too, which is just like. I have a question. As far as parasocial relationships go with people on reality tv, like as the, as the reality TV star, as the person that like someone has those parasocial relationships with you, how do you think that like, affects the psyche of, you know, these like, people just trying to live their day to day lives?

[F]

Yeah, I mean the. There's going to be a certain level of grandiosity that you're probably going to start to have. And you need to also have enough awareness to know that this is all being fed by like the validation that you're receiving online and what that does for, for you. You know, like, I'm no big reality star, but I'm like big enough to understand like the praise that I get, the hundreds of comments or dms that I get daily telling me that like, you know, I'm amazing or I make such a big difference or whatever it is. And I understand that. I grew up in a family where I felt like I didn't get enough attention. And now I'm being flooded with attention and there's going to be a part of me that's just like, oh, this is really healing. A void, a wound inside of me, an attachment wound. I'm getting like healed by it. But really I just want my mom to hug me. Right. I just want my dad to be like, I love you. Right. That's what would actually heal me. So all the stuff that I'm getting outside of that from, it's not real. It feels really good in the moment. And I'm just going to want more and more and more and more because it's never really going to heal me. I have to actually like grieve what I didn't get as a kid. And it makes me think about Taylor. Like Taylor, Frankie, Paul, Carol's father, just like walked out. Total abandonment issues. And it makes perfect sense that she is. That she's still wounded by that. And it also makes perfect sense to see that she's attracted to somebody like Dakota, where it's difficult to like really get his love in an authentic way. And then he lies to her and it feels like it's her dad walking out on her. And then when he says that he's sorry and they have like a little honeymoon period or save the rose for me, then she's getting the attention that she wishes she got from her father. And it's just sort of like replays over and over and over again. And Dakota is never going to be the one to heal that wound. Taylor needs to Go to even more therapy, do even more emdr. I know that she was a fan of it in order to, like, really process that grief and move through it. But it's the same sort of thing that happens to anyone and everyone who's, like, online or Internet famous or reality star. You're getting attention. It feels really good. It feels like it's healing a wound. It's not really, but you have to get more and more and more of it to start feeling like a. Like it's actually making a difference, but it never does. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. That's really crazy.

[D]

Can I just say that on that note, I feel like Miranda doesn't get enough praise because I think it's. It's so obvious that if you're in reality TV and somebody does you dirty, you can make an entire career out of exploiting that experience. And maybe rightfully so. Honestly, like, when things happen to people, I'm, like, good for them. Like, they are popping and they're making the best of it, and, like, get your bag. Yeah, get your bag. Exactly. And I. And I love for that person that they're now getting, like, redemption, whether it's financially or attention or whatever. But Miranda has. Has such an opportunity to. Or had such an opportunity to throw chase under the bus years ago or currently. And she hasn't done it, really. And she's had to sit there and publicly be not. She hasn't had to. She has chosen to publicly, publicly stand by him as the father for children. And instead of exploiting him, knowing that her kids are gonna see this someday, she's played really nice, and she could totally play into this trope of, like, getting public validation or getting people on her side even before this situation. But she's handled it so maturely. And I feel like it's. It is really interesting because all the attention goes to the people that seemingly don't have that internal validation of that they're enough or the human healed experience. But someone like Miranda actually seems very healed and very healthy. And it's incredibly hard to sit there and be that person publicly. And it seems to me like she's doing it maybe for her children. And I feel like she doesn't get enough attention because it's actually kind of healthy.

[F]

Yeah. Every now and then, there's a Miranda who's doing it right. The cameras might not, like, pick up on it or something, or we might not pick up on it, but Miranda is machine mature and a hero and seemingly kind of always gets fucked over, but, like. But Handles it really well.

[A]

Yeah. Susie, curious. A lot of chatter online about the lying cook theory as it relates to Chase, where no one can figure out what the appeal of Chase is. And you were in our, in our group chat talking about how you, you know, what that's like. What, what is? Like, what's the appeal of Chase? What's the line cook theory? I'm getting curious.

[D]

Oh, well, I, I thought that was very funny because I've always been a waitress off and on, like, since I was 16. It's always been like my backup or the thing that I do in between or when I'm. When I started my video business. I've always. I love serving, and in restaurant culture, there's so many nuances. And I love, like, when you're front of house and you're like, you have to get dressed and you look cute and you're like, presenting and you're working with people and customer service is so important. And the line cooks, they also have, like, riz and they. That personality, but they're back of house because they can't hold their tongue. Probably not always. But the. I think that's what the theory is, like, playing into is like the, the line cooks, like, they are witty, they're funny. Some of them have like that swagger where you're like, oh, you're a little bit.

[F]

You.

[D]

You're trouble.

[E]

But I want. So I'm going to say you're always like, a little hungry. So you go back there being like, yes, always.

[B]

When I was a busser, I used to do that all the time.

[A]

Have you guys seen the movie Waiting? It's amazing myself with Justin Long and Ryan Reynolds, and it's just a bunch. They're. They're all waiting at a, like an Applebee's. And it's about this whole culture. And like, Dane Cook's the line cut. He's got, like, swag tracks.

[B]

Dane, perfect. Pete Davidson gives line. Yes.

[D]

Pete Davidson. It's like you have that kind of, like, edgy. I don't know how to describe.

[E]

It's a.

[D]

There's a look. Yeah, exactly. There's like an edgy vibe to it. But I think to survive in restaurant culture, you have to have a little bit of punch or edge and, like, so whether you're front of house or back of house, but I feel like when you're back of house, you can get away with more. And, like, you can. Once I go into the back of house, I'm also a little bit more inappropriate with the line cook, you know, I'm gonna get those fries or those chicken tenders.

[A]

So, like, Chase isn't maybe the guy you marry, but, like, maybe you just wanna make out with in a. Back at a restaurant. Restaurant kind of thing.

[D]

Totally. Like, yeah. You get drinks after work.

[F]

Yeah. It does not age well. It's kind of. It's kind of cute and hot when you're in your 20s, possibly early 30s, but once you get older, it's disgusting.

[A]

Before we let you go, Jeff, you made a clip about parasocial relationships and how it affects us, the fans, when we have these fallouts with cast members or shows get canceled or our opinions change about people, people we really rode hard for. I was just curious if you could share that perspective with my audience.

[F]

Yeah, I think when I. When I first saw the TMZ video, I saw it, like, you know, a minute after it came out, I saw it with the rest of the world, and I already had my, you know, sort of nuanced feelings for Taylor. But I've always been like, a Taylor Frankie Paul fan. There's something about her where even if she's problematic, she can be really authentic. She can be really vulnerable. She has a lot of insight. She's trying to change. She's doing the work. I keep on giving her more and more chances because there's just something kind of nice and beautiful about her and raw. And then you see her in that video, and for me, I was just like, oh, no. I feel let down. Like, I feel like, should I see her as a totally different person now? I don't know. I've seen her for. In a very specific way for, like, three or four years. And now. Is she a monster? I'm not sure. So there's a part of me that wants to defend her, and then there's another part of me that's just like, I'm writing her off. I'm done with her. I've now seen who she really is. And that is a very difficult process for me specifically and everybody else to go through where you have to hold different versions of Taylor at the same time. And especially online, we're so black and white, so we want to throw her on the under the bus, or we want to, like, totally defend her. And even when I made that video about her of, like, oh, okay, this was upsetting. This is really difficult. We can hold two truths at once. So many of her followers and fans came for me. They're like, this isn't her. This is reactive abuse. I can't believe you're a therapist. That doesn't see this. What are you talking about? I'm just like, whoa, let's, like, let's slow down here for a little while. So I think it's. I don't know how to do it exactly, but it's incredibly difficult to untie the parasocial relationship that we have with all of these people and even Dakota of like. I think a lot of women can see their ex boyfriends in Dakota and then like take it out on him whether he deserves it or not. He probably does to a certain extent, but there's like so much projection that's going on, and I'm not sure people are taking a beat and are curious about their weird parasocial relationships that they have with the. These people.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's certainly fascinating even for us. I mean, we. We know these people. We don't just see them on tv. You know, we're friends with some. Some of them. But yeah, I mean, our experiences with Taylor, we've said of this have been nothing but like, incredibly positive and she's been someone we've asked advice from. It's. It's a really weird and. And strange thing to process as we all are, but we will all try to get through it together. Jeff, I want to thank you for taking the time. This has been really insane, insightful. Please let my audience know where they can find you. Enjoy all the great content that you're making.

[F]

Yeah, you can find me on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube if you just look up therapy.

[A]

Jeff. All right, Jeff, I appreciate it. Please come back again. It's great to have someone with your expertise have us talk about these very difficult topics with.

[F]

Yeah, anytime.

[A]

All right, take care.

[E]

Thank you.

[A]

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[E]

Always nice to have people smarter than you, you know?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[E]

Hard to come by.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Truly. I feel like he always challenges my perspective whenever I see him on Tik Tok. I'm like, half the time I disagree with his sentiment and then I hear him explain and I'm like, okay, good perspective.

[E]

Fair enough.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Well, you know, our feelings do matter, but they are our, our feelings. Sometimes our feelings are wrong, you know?

[D]

Right.

[A]

Anyway, we'll continue to cover the story. Who knows what's going to happen next? Yeah, I think there's still a lot of decisions yet to be made. I think there's the whole element of Disney literally has a new CEO that is going to obviously be part of this decision and it will be really, really, really curious. I mean, it is. It's just fascinating. What does it mean that Bachelor happy hour is going to be allowing us to get to know these men? Is that just like, hey, at least we have this. Let's take it from here. Is this really the end of that franchise? Where do they go next? It's. And then Mormon Wives is I think, the biggest question of it all. Like, will that show go on?

[E]

Because also a lot of these women are like posting like they're all moving to la. You know, like Leila posted House Hunting in la. Jesse posted something about la. Michaela obviously is here. Here in la.

[B]

So there's a kind of like spin off, right, that they're working on with Jen.

[A]

Well, there's this alleged spin off center around Jen Affleck in la, like more Orange County. But I can't. Like, that's not going to include all these. These women.

[D]

It wouldn't have been linked.

[E]

But they're all moving here centered around her. But they're all. Is it like, are they all moving because they're so busy in their, like, careers that now they're like, hey, Utah, like, isn't the place for us?

[B]

Yeah, hey, should we get into some summer house?

[E]

I kind of feel like this is all. They're all rallying together to, like, troll us, is what I am gathering. I just feel like if these people are friends with either Sierra or Amanda and. Or both of them, and, like, this is a real thing that's going on. A real friendship for how many years is being broken up? Like, I don't feel like they'd be on their Instagram stories posting, like, meme pictures of themselves to, like, like, feed into it. I feel like this would be clearly a serious matter that they're like, I don't know.

[A]

But now you have Kyle. Like, you know, there was a comment being like, everyone's, like, checking in on Sierra because it. I think we can all agree that if this rumor is true, I feel like Sierra. Everyone agrees that Sierra has most right to be upset. And then everyone's kind of talking about how, oh, we're forgetting about how Kyle's doing. And he, like, commented like a. A sad emoji with his hand. Hand up. And it's like suggesting that he's. I mean, it's. They're. They're getting to the point of engaging with this content. They. I mean, you would otherwise take as a confirmation that these rumors are true. But, like, this is a group of people not too long ago where Jesse Solomon was in the comments saying, you know, you have nice cans to a married woman. And again that. Not that that's. Again the end all be all, but it's. We're all sitting there as fans of the show being like, I would. I would never make a comment like that to my friend's wife, let alone online for everyone to see. And yet here they are doing it. But the question is if. If it is fake. It feels kind of fucked up.

[E]

Like, both sides are fucked up. It's like, if it's true, that's shitty. And, like, what the fuck? How do they continue? How can Amanda do this to Sierra? How can Wes do this to Sierra? How, you know, whatever. Whatever, if it's not true? Like, question still stands. Like, still shitty. And how are y' all able to just act like this is okay?

[D]

Do they get A free pass. If it's an April Fool's joke that they've all been in on, it's just

[B]

like you're still creating this narrative that, like, Sierra is getting fucked over regardless. So it's like, at the end of the day, do you actually care about her or no? Or do you just want to make good tv?

[A]

You have people, really people who are passionately. Team Sierra, team Amanda. They're going to ride hard for these people. They're going to be in the comments. They're going to be going to war. I mean, this is like. Like giving, you know, scandal 2.0. And it's just like, what. What are we doing here if it is real? I mean, west is really the true villain of the story, clearly.

[G]

I mean, should we go through.

[B]

Yeah, I think we should.

[G]

Should we go through what actually we know so far?

[A]

Okay, let's. Yeah, let's go through.

[G]

Because I feel like it all started from speculation that Wes. Well, so Wes and Amanda were posting TikToks hanging out that sparked speculation that maybe they were dating or hooking up. Then we have the photo in the house of Wes hanging out with them where it's just friends. And then you have Jesse Solomon poked fun at this where he went to dinner with Amanda and said, if anybody sees this, this is not a date. And then it was still reported on Amanda spotted with Jesse. So it's like there's all this speculation surrounding Amanda.

[B]

There was an Amazon Live that Sierra and Amanda were supposed to do together, and then they didn't do it together. And so now people think that they're, like, beefing. Sierra hasn't been liking or commenting on Amanda's posts. So people are think thinking that this is true. And then you have Lindsay Hubbard who, like, posts this picture of, like, her completely shocked and disgusted. A screen cap from the show, a meme from the show of herself being shocked, and then a photo with her and Sierra.

[E]

But it's not just Lindsay posting that. KJ also posted a picture. A meme. Picture also posted a meme.

[A]

It's one thing to not speak on a rumor, right? It's one thing to have the. The blogs or the fans I saw, you know, so and so are out to lunch or whatever and not commenting on it to allow a rumor that you. If you've never spoke on it, like, you're not doing anything wrong. But now that they are engaging with it, and again, they're. They're in the comments confirming that this story's true. I mean, there's no Other way to read into comments with Kyle, like having a tear emoji. When people are asking, is anyone checked in on Kyle?

[G]

Kyle's reacting, though, to no one saying, has anybody thought. Has anybody thought about Kyle? Like, that's what he's reacting to, though. So he's not confused. Confirming.

[E]

But that basically is confirming because if it wasn't true, then he wouldn't respond. If it's like, this isn't something that's actually happening, then he wouldn't feel the need to, like, be in the comments being like, wait, yeah, guys, why is no one not checking on me?

[D]

Yeah, like, if he. If he's doing the hand emoji and it's not true, then I think it's really problematic. I'm like, oh, so you just want attention?

[B]

Well, yeah, I think they're all acting on this level of plausible deniability for this rumor because it obviously is getting attention to the show.

[A]

But then we find out when we have conversations about these couples that, like, you know, these. These are real people. And, like, this was a real relationship between Wes and Sierra. There were real feelings of, like, betrayal and heartbreak. And it's just like, well, which one is it? You know, it's. It's. It gets very confusing. If it is real, I don't know how Wes survives this.

[B]

If it is real, I'm gonna do something drastic for Ciara's sake. I very, very hope much hope it's not real because that would be so fucked up.

[A]

Has she made any comments? Has she done any of these?

[B]

I haven't seen any. Anything from.

[A]

Okay, all right.

[B]

Sierra whatsoever?

[D]

Yeah, I'm curious.

[B]

Which is.

[D]

It's coming from everyone around them.

[B]

It's coming from everyone around her. So then it's like, okay, is she your friend?

[A]

Are they doing. Yeah. Are they. If it's not real, have they gotten her blessing to do this narrative that.

[D]

Right.

[A]

Toys was something that was very personal to her.

[B]

She was with Lindsay.

[A]

I don't know. Well, I'm sure we'll find out sooner than later. We also have Beverly Hills Housewives is airing and we have a feud between Sarah Michelle Geller and Andy Cohen. Sarah Michelle Geller recently was doing some press. She's a fan of Housewives. She watches the shows. She did an interview on radio, Andy, I think the Page Six guys. And she talked about how, like, as many fans feel that they're just not enjoying this season of Beverly Hills Housewives as compared to, say, other seasons or other Housewives franchises. And Andy took offense to Sarah Michelle Geller's comments and kind of clapped back and kind of suggested, like. Kind of like, you know, maybe on. At least on my platform, you know, on radio. Andy, keep your opinions to yourself. And a lot of people are taking sides as. As they do on the Internet. I think we. A lot of us have agreed with Sarah. What's interesting, it's just like, you know, objectively, when it comes to Housewives, how many franchises are there? It's hard not to compare. You know, we have Salt Lake, we have Orange county, we have Beverly Hills, we have Potomac, we have Atlanta. There's some, like, amazing franchises. And, you know, right now, Salt Lake's having. Salt Lake City's having their moment. And it's. It's hard not. You want to rank them. You want to compare them. So there's always going to be even winners and losers. When you're, like, just talking about all of Andy's shows and in. Some will have praise and some will have criticism. It's just like, Andy's reaction is this very. Like. It just reminded me that, like, when it's about you, it just always hits different, you know, when. When you're the one going through a breakup. When, you know, I've had friends over the years, like, make comments about things that we are a part of, you know, or you hear it, you know, they do an interview and they say. And it gets clipped, and then someone sends it to me. And then we're always like, why the. Would they. Why would this. You know, why would they say that? You know, and then you call up to Fred, you talk to him, they're like, well, that was kind of taken out of context, and you didn't hear the other side. And, like, I was just trying to be objective because it's what we do. And I'm like, yeah, no, I get it. That's what I do. But, like, when it happens to you, like, you're never seeing things clearly. You know, you're always. It just hits differently. So Andy being. Being offended, I totally get. Because it's like, what, Sarah? Like, what. Why are you talking about my show? You know, and it's just like.

[E]

But also, people have come on Watch what Happens Live and said that Beverly Hills is boring. Like, people are saying it to his face. People are saying it on his platform. So it's like, she really didn't say anything new, and she didn't say anything that was, like, more offensive. She just said that it's boring. No, everyone else has said.

[A]

And I. And it's, you know, and Beverly Hills, we've said this before. You have these. This cast of, like, these many of iconic women, and you're. You. You hear more about their lives in the. In the tabloids than you do on the show. And it really seems like a group of women who feel like they have more to lose. And when you compare how they move compared to, say, the women on Salt Lake City, where it's no holds bar and they're really just going for it, it is. It is hard not to feel a different way when you watch Beverly Hills versus, say, Salt Lake City or Potomac. You know, like, the conversations they're having on Potomac just feel more. More raw and authentic and. And we have, like, caf can gate on. On Beverly Hills.

[B]

I mean, I think they're in defense of Beverly Hills. I do, like, although I do not think this is the strongest season I have seen whatsoever, I. I do always appreciate the kind of, like, aloofness that comes from Beverly Hills because I think all it, like, is very reflective of the tone of the show. I mean, it is this kind of, like, artifice in Beverly Hills. I wish they were more rare, open and vulnerable this season because it is getting a little. Okay. But I don't know. Also, Sarah Michelle Geller is going to be in Stop that train, the RuPaul movie with jujube, which is a drag race movie that's basically Airplane. And so I think she's doing fine.

[G]

I like this season of Beverly Hills. I had no notes the whole time.

[D]

Like, I like it as well. And I'm new to Beverly Hills. I'm new to a lot of the Housewives, but I'm actually chill.

[B]

Like, hangout chill.

[D]

It does feel like a chill, hangout chill.

[E]

It's.

[D]

It's not. Sometimes reality TV gets so heavy. And honestly, when I was watching Potomac, I was taking on a lot of this stuff. And so I feel like with Beverly Hills, I kind of like the aloof. I kind of like. I also think I live here and in la and so I'm seeing things that I'm. I'm. It's just, like, interesting. It's interesting to see how people live. I don't know. I'm liking it.

[B]

I was like, ah, I live here. But yet I still have never experienced the life that you experienced, which is always interesting.

[G]

I also think the thing with Beverly Hills is people are used to the last couple of seasons where it got, like, dark, dark. And, like, now they're seeing these characters be more comfortable in settings that aren't about serious conversations. And I think that's why they're like, oh, this is boring.

[D]

Right?

[G]

It's like, no, this isn't boring. It's just Erica not dealing with the lawsuits. You know, like, it's just like, a little bit less of the dark stuff and more of just the other parts of their life.

[B]

Yeah. Which, honestly, I think after what they've gone through is in that show is maybe just like a nice little rest.

[A]

Natalie and I started watching the show called DTF St. Louis. You can. Guys heard about it. No, it's with Jason Baitman. If you like Jason Baitman, you'll love this show. It's. It's a. It's a dark comedy. There's a murder, There's. It's a little bit of, like, who done it? You know? And it's basically about, like, the. The darkness of, like, the suburban married life where life gets boring and mundane and couples, like, get the ick from their partners and then stop having sex. And there's this scene where, like, one of the main characters, David Harper, and he's talking. He's like, what's your ick? He's talking to Jason Bateman's character and his. You know, they're trying to make ends meet. So his wife, she becomes an umpire, and she's dressed up in full umpire gear. And ever since then, he, like, he can't get aroused by his wife anymore because he can only see her in umpire gear.

[B]

It doesn't work for him.

[A]

And when watching this episode of Beverly Hills again, like, I am not a fashionista, so no disrespect, but I'm watching this, and I. And. And the caf?

[F]

Can.

[A]

What is it called?

[E]

Caftan.

[C]

That.

[A]

That would be my, like, wardrobe. Ick. It's just like, if you just started only wearing.

[E]

Honestly, all I want to wear when I'm pregnant.

[A]

And listen, I'm sure Rachel, she's in a divorce era. I doubt she's dressing for men. I totally get it. I. I'm not. I'm not.

[G]

Captains are hot, first of all.

[A]

I'm sure they are. I've just. But if I wore sweatpants every day, you know, it's just like. It's just more.

[G]

10 isn't sweatpants.

[D]

If. If I had money, I'd be wearing a caftan.

[G]

Caftan is rich, successful.

[B]

Yes. That's a cunty.

[A]

It's my. It's my wardrobe. Ick. It just. I'm sure it can be sexy sometime.

[E]

It was my pajama pants.

[A]

There's more than a few. You know, I mean, maybe I Just great. But it is fascinating to think about, like, something you see where you're just like that. Yeah, that's just not for me.

[B]

You know, my wardrobe is a V neck in any sense. To be completely honest, I had to check. I was like, oh, no, Am I

[D]

wearing a V neck right now?

[B]

Specifically on men. A man in a V neck.

[A]

I'm like, 2000 to 2010, I was exclusively V necks.

[B]

Yeah, well, that's of the time. I'm talking about right now in the year of our Lord 2026, if someone's wearing a V neck, I'm just like,

[A]

you see the SNL skit with Ben Stiller and the deep V. And then it kept getting deeper and deeper. And then, like, the V was like. I felt very called out there on that back then.

[D]

That's funny.

[A]

And everyone has their relationship and I don't know. All right, well, get ready to get some laughs. I know we've talked about some heavier topics, but our next guest is absolutely hilarious, and he's the star of the new hit show Company Retreat that is now streaming on Amazon. If you watch Jury Duty, you're going to love Company Retreat and you're going to love our next guest. It's such a fascinating show that they make. And we can't wait for you to hear from Alex Bonifour, who plays Dougie in Company Retreat. And he is up next. Alex Bonhoeffer, welcome to the show.

[C]

I can't believe I'm here in all of the best ways possible. And really, I can't believe I'm here. Because when I pulled up, I know this building. And then I got in the elevator and I know this floor. Dougie Jr. Was born right down the hall. I tested, so I put myself on tape first. And then they had us come in to do an hour long, impromptu, improvised job interview, essentially. And at the production office, which is right down the hall from here, I get the chills thinking about it.

[E]

But extra special, because it's meant to be.

[C]

I mean, it feels that way to me. But yeah, when Ream was great.

[E]

It's so funny. We obviously have been watching the show, and then whenever they were like, oh, we got Alex to come on the show, I was like, oh, let me, like, Google which one he is. And then I'm like, we haven't met him yet. So weird. And we're like, what?

[A]

I'm like, I think it's Dougie. I think it's Dougie. He's like. She's like, really?

[E]

The hair was nuts.

[A]

Yeah, you do have a great head of hair. Do you had to grow that out or.

[C]

Yeah, I didn't have to, but I. So when we started, I. My hair was, like, medium length. And I knew that I wanted Dougie to be kind of an unkempt slob who's, like, obviously not fit to be in charge of anything, let alone a business, a company. So my hair was, like, medium. And for the audition, I just, like, teased it out and made it all kind of crazy. And it gets bigger. Big like that. And then I was on a show called Kevin Can Fuck Himself a few years ago that was on amc. It had got moved over to Netflix. And I don't know what the algorithm was or whatever, but, like, sometimes you'd scroll through and see my face on the, like, carousel. So I wasn't concerned that he was gonna watch it, but I was like, if he's on Netflix, he could see my face. Then I was on three national commercials that were running at the same time as we were. So I was booked and blessed.

[A]

Hashtag it.

[C]

But I. So I was, like, super concerned. So I was like, all right, step one, I gotta grow a nick level beard here. Maybe even a little bit longer to hide behind that. Then once we got into the really extensive rehearsal process, which was about, like, a month, like, five weeks, and the more I got to know Dougie, I was like, if I was. So I perform at the Groundlings too, I should say that. Where we do sketch and improv and we are really big into costumes. I own over 50 wigs.

[D]

Beautiful.

[C]

And I was like, what would I do to disguise myself? We have the costume. I have the beard. Like, I would wear a wig. I can't do that. Let's bleach my hair. And I was very particular about. I needed to show that the roots, like, I didn't want it all bad bleach. We used two different tones to just be even shittier, you know? And then the Roots were important to me because it showed that, like, he couldn't even maintain that. You know what I mean?

[E]

Professional for that. Or was that something you did at home?

[C]

No, no, I had to go to professional.

[E]

And you're like, I want you to do.

[C]

Yeah. I was like, do the best shitty bleach job of your life.

[D]

Make sure my hair doesn't fall out.

[C]

Yes, that.

[A]

I have so many questions. But, like, I guess just starting with just the process of how do you guys prepare for a show like this where everyone is an actor except for our main character, our hero, our King Anthony, and Us normies, we hear of things like method acting, you know, where you're just like staying in character. But like, yeah, how. How did you guys make sure. And what was the setup to even do this? Is it improv? Is it scripted? Like, what. What does this all look like? How does this show of, like this kind of originality come together and work the way it does?

[C]

Yeah, the. The first part of this answer is in our preparation. And even before they even hired us as a cast to come on, like, the world building that went into Rock and Grand Grandmas was insane. An unfathomable amount of world building went into this show. I mean, they built, you know, the Rock and Grandma's website. They had a customer service hotline. There was, you know, how Anthony was brought on was a whole, like, you know, like this temp staffing agency that had a website and a profile and LinkedIn pages and like all this stuff. So even from like the jump establishing this reality before we even got there was parents Paramount. So that if, you know any, if it was like, if Anthony started Googling or whatever, like that world was created, then the preparation, once we were all hired, which again was right down the hall, we would have our like first meetings and you'll see it like in. In potentially later episodes like, of us in that office. But we had to not only whereas in the first season they were strangers and also shout out to the first season they walked so we could run like we're nothing without the cast of Jury Duty and Ronald Gladden. But they were presumed strangers, so they did not have to know anything about each other. They didn't have to have a history, but we had to know, like, I had to build my life story with Jerry Hauck, who plays my dad, and force him to kiss me on the mouth a hundred times. But it was just through that preparation. And then Nick, to answer your question, we had. It was scripted in that we knew the road we were traveling on or we would hope to travel on. Meaning, like, we knew the story we wanted to. Wanted to tell. We knew that, you know, Dougie wasn't lying to take over the company and that he would make a blunder in the form of a jerk off sauce and screw things up. Like, so we knew that that stuff was happening.

[A]

The Taco Bell. The Taco Bell bomb.

[C]

Taco Bell. Mix it up, man. That's a good sauce.

[A]

When you were just like, what? Yeah, I don't.

[C]

What's the big deal? Is it not good? Is it not tasty to you guys? I think it's really good.

[B]

Was it mild, medium, or hot? Taco Bell sauce.

[C]

It was Taco Bell mild sauce. Yeah, a little Taco Bell mild sauce.

[E]

Got it.

[F]

Thanks.

[A]

And I actually right now, like, the confusion you have.

[C]

Sorry, was it wasn't that one? Don't you love it? They sell a lot of it. Maybe we can, too.

[E]

So good.

[C]

I actually. So fun, fun little BTS tidbit. So the first two, we were at the. We were at the office in Canoga park for two days. A lot of that was just, again, a stage establishing nothing really crazy happened. We just wanted to establish that we were a real business that operated well. None of us are. We're just sitting behind these fake computers. So most of it was just, like, sending messages to each other, doing bits, calling our own phones and, like, leaving voicemails, but just having conversations of like, yeah, oh, that'd be great. Oh, absolutely. No kidding. You don't say, like, those kinds of conversations. So I would have, like 15 minute long voicemail to myself. But one of the things I did to pass the time was call. I probably called about, I don't know, 20 or 30 different real taco Bells asking how many hot sauces I could take if I came and bought, like, a taco, how many sauces? And I got varying answers. So, Taco Bell, get your story straight.

[E]

Standards and practices.

[C]

Some people said I could have all of it. And some people said, you get two. And some people said, no handful.

[A]

So two.

[C]

Yeah, I know it was a wide range.

[A]

Usually I get a handful when.

[E]

So I'm assuming that when Anthony says anything, that's kind of where the improv comes in.

[C]

Yeah. Yes. So to finish answering the question, there was no scripted dialogue. So again, we knew the journey we wanted to travel. But every line of dialogue that you heard said on that show was the jokes. I was so honored and shocked that the joke that I improvised with, it's not a earned job or it's not a hand job, it's an earn job. That's something I improvise. It's not like, hey, say this thing.

[A]

You was in your head being like, yes.

[C]

When the trailer dropped, I was like, hell, yeah. I can't believe it. But it was such a good lesson because I was nervous and I was like, is there. Are they going to think this is too jokey? Are they going to get mad at me for this? Or whatever. But I just trusted my instinct. And so to have it, like, validated in that way is like, the button on the trailer was.

[A]

And what's so fascinating too, because, you know, I think we always take it for granted how TV shows and movies are made, but they're often shot out of order, you know, like, like I actually saw a clip of Jeff Daniels talking about Dumb and dumber and how the very first scene they filmed was the motorcycle scene.

[C]

No.

[A]

Driving into Aspen because he was basically talking about. They wanted to test him first. So they did a scene with him with Jim Carrey and then shot up, then had a week of filming with just him because they were kind of testing him. It's kind of a fascinating clip, but it's fascinating. But you guys obviously shot just. You had to like that first scene of episode one, season one, where he, Anthony walked in to the office. That must have been like, so nerve wracking for everyone. Like, all right, here we go. Everyone, like very Truman show where, like Truman's about to walk into the building. Everyone, like have remarks and it's like, it's, there's no, there's no cut, there's no action. You know, there's no, like redoing it. That's so fascinating.

[C]

I can't begin to describe the nerves on that first day. Like, so I, I. So we started on a Thursday and they had a full day at the office. I wasn't there because Dougie takes Thursdays, his mental health day. So he takes off Thursdays to get ready for the weekend. Of course, you know, as one does, it's important. So I wasn't there, but I showed up on Friday and I knew that my first interaction with Anthony was going to be in the conference room mixing my sauces. But I was there that first day in our control center. So we had all the monitors up watching him, watching his movements and like, you know, but it was so, it was like you said, it was like the true the Truman show has begun. There is no turning back now. Like, every moment is the point of no return. And I remember waiting in my car for the green light to drive into the parking lot, get out of my car and like, begin this journey. And yeah, I remember, like, it was yesterday, like, the nerves and the feelings, but the only way to get through it is you just, you just kind of put earlier. It's just like lock in and be as. I'm not a method actor at all, but like, you kind of have to just get in that headspace.

[E]

When Anthony was like at the retreat and the, the 50 bucks, the 50 bag of cool Ranch Doritos goes missing and he's like, why don't we Go search everybody's room where all of y' all, like, yes. Like, great idea, Anthony.

[C]

Yes. And he did that so many times, but. So that was one. We were like, for every scenario, we were like, hopefully, this happens, but if not, then Dougie will say, hey, why don't we, you know, and then if he still doesn't want to, then we'll kind of, like, group mind, like, force this on him. But even before we had a chance to suggest that, he's like, I know. Oh, we'll just go to everyone's rooms. Exactly that. We were like, oh, okay.

[A]

Yeah, great idea. What do you think? Like, what are they looking for when they're casting this character? Because I. While watching this, I'm. I'm trying to be like, if I were Anthony. I mean, he's such a likable, affable, kind of go with the flow personality. And I. You know, it obviously takes the right person, but, like, do you. What are they looking for when they're casting this? Because I don't think anyone could fit in this type of environment where they would be so, like, the way he was with Dougie.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, just so kind and just a cheerleader. A lot of people. People would have been more critical or mean or just, you know, given up on God.

[E]

Printed out. He's like, you got it, man. Just power through.

[C]

Keep your head up, like, and so earnest. Like, my heart exploded in that moment when he, like, looked into my soul and was like, keep your head up, like, you know, that is above my pay grade in terms of all that went into selecting our hero. And that's also. You'll hear me refer to him as hero because it's important for all of us to. To point out, like, he was never considered, like, the mark or the joke. Like, he really was someone that, from day one, was revered and was treated with that kind of reverence, you know, so very important that he's never the butt of the joke. Right? He's just sort of the. The calm amidst this crazy, chaotic storm. But I think, above all, like, they were looking for someone who was, like, willing to see the good in things. Like, who did. Who didn't want to, like, delve too deep into stuff and was like, okay, yeah, like, my general outlook on life is a positive one, you know, And I think that that's why Anthony was able to connect with not just Dougie, but, like, so many other characters in this show and really, like, became the rock for everybody. And. Yeah, I'm sorry.

[E]

Like, maybe I would just be Terrible at this job. But were there ever moments where you're, like, biting your cheek, you're trying not to laugh because of just, like, the shit that your peers are saying? You're just like, the fuck, like, did that. You're like, I have to leave. I have to walk out.

[A]

The. Dougie's company retreat person.

[E]

Oh, Lisa Gilroy.

[C]

Lisa Gilroy. Yeah. Yeah. Christine was her character's name. That's Lisa Gilroy. She's, like, one of the funniest people on the planet. And, yeah, that was probably the moment. So I would. I was never worried about breaking in the moments where I was supposed to be serious. Like, you know, Dougie Jr's on stage, the grandma's rocking out on that guitar real hard. You got the jerk off. So, like, that's ridiculous. And then again, something I'm proud of, improvising of, like, I want my sauce inside of you. And I want my sauce inside of you. Fun fact, I did that for about 30 seconds where I just kept going, you, sir, in the back. I want my sauce inside of you. And, ma', am, don't think I forgot about you. I want my sauce inside of you, ma'.

[B]

Am.

[C]

So those moments where, like, you know, Dougie was the focal point, and this is a big moment in Dougie's life, like, I wasn't really concerned about breaking there. I was really locked in. But, yeah, like, the moments where I'm sort of just, you know, amidst the rest of the ensemble. And Lisa, when she sang that song, I was like, oh, my God, keep it together.

[A]

What was the game? She's like, just saying random things of emotions.

[C]

So she had. They could do. They could do. Like, each seminar could be its own episode if they wanted to, because they were all so funny. But we all had slips of paper underneath our chairs, and they all said ridiculous things like, my dog is my husband, or I wet the sheets. I can't remember what mine said. But they were all stupid like that. And then she just like, yeah, would be. Basically be like, now let's put some emotion on that.

[A]

You know, and then my dog is my husband.

[C]

Yeah. And then have that stupid way of justifying it. Made no sense.

[A]

Did Lisa come up at that game on the fly?

[C]

Yes, like they. With all of the seminar speakers. So they were all. So Lisa was one of the few people that was on the first season, if you remember, from Jury Duty. I forget her character's name, but she was like the social media influencer slash lash tech slash. I manage a social media account for my Dog. And I'm also an influencer, but also a part time model. Bottle. But also I also work in fashion and pr. Like she said all those things so hilarious in the first season. Like when she came in. Mind you, they also did not tell us like who these speakers were. It was just like we would show up, we'd be like, oh, we have another semiconductor today. And Lisa was there and I was like, how is he not going to know who this is? You know? But the vetting that goes into like him not watching a lot of media and stuff like that. But yeah, every seminar they put the responsibility of these super funny and talented performers to essentially come up with the concept of their seminar and like what the bit would be, which I thought was crazy.

[A]

I mean I was dying laughing for hers.

[C]

My name is Christine.

[E]

And you're like this.

[C]

You're like, yeah, jamming out. Because it's Dougie's. It's Dougie's girl.

[A]

You know what I mean? Great grandma's video.

[B]

Rocking grandma.

[A]

You were like, this is my, my, my, my dad's grandma. But it's like a home videotape, like clearly tape from like the 90s.

[B]

I thought timeline wise figure that out at all. Well, she's a grandma, right? She's your dad's grandma. So at that point in time, like this video was probably taken in the 70s. She was already grandmother esque playing guitar. So it was probably from the 70s. Your dad would have been like a young boy at that point. So that was a formative moment for him to create his hot sauce.

[C]

Yes, exactly. That was his. Thank you.

[A]

That was like anyone wondering the timeline, shouldn't it be 1945?

[E]

They didn't have cameras, the video cameras.

[D]

We don't know.

[B]

Cheek lived a long, long life.

[C]

She ate all the house Grandma Roz. Her name was Grandma Rosalyn. She lived a long life. But also I will say the tv, that monitor was not much bigger than like these monitors here. And he was pretty far away from it too. So what we see very like close up, he's getting like, even still, if

[A]

that was the case, you would, it would, it would track with Dougie like making a bullshit video, you know, like to promote his hot sauce.

[C]

Yes, would that. And we had backup plans like that for a lot of the things like what if he does say something like that? Or with me being in commercials, I was so concerned about him being like, oh, you're from the Pizza Hut thing or whatever. And our backup was that like, oh yeah, my homie shoots this stuff. And he asked me to be in this thing. I didn't think it was gonna take off like that, but, you know, to, like, own it almost.

[E]

I'm pretty famous.

[C]

Yeah. So I guess, Yeah, I made, like, decent amount of money on it.

[A]

Nepotism. Exactly.

[B]

The hot tub.

[E]

How of your character development did you

[C]

bring from Chet Hanks, My hero, my king, I love.

[A]

Is he still in Columbia? Stuck.

[C]

No, he's got. He's out. He's out. Hashtag, free chat. Yeah, no, he.

[B]

White boy spring.

[C]

He got out White boy spring. And he's got veneers now. Did you not see that?

[A]

No.

[C]

Oh, he looks fantastic. Shout out. Chad Hanks. Yeah, he looks great. And he just dropped, like, a, A country song. So maybe a pivot. Jack of all trades. Multi hyphen it. I mean, this isn't a bit. I'm like, I don't.

[A]

I think he's talented.

[C]

Yes. Yeah, he's talented, and he is, like, captivating.

[A]

You disagree?

[E]

S. You know, I, I, I. He's in that. He's in that basketball show with Kate Hudson.

[C]

He's.

[A]

Yes, yes, he is.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

He's great in that.

[C]

Yes. He's, you know, problematic moments, for sure. But, you know, but, like, don't we all at some point, right? Dougie Jr. Has his.

[A]

Do you have more empathy for chat having Ben Dougie now?

[C]

Of course. Of course.

[A]

Like, what is it like to be the son of a king? You know?

[C]

Yeah, it's. That's, that's a tough scene. Tough throne to sit on, you know what I'm saying? But no, I think, like, I knew that there would be chat. Like, I've seen in, like, comments of, like, you know, is this Chet Hanks? Whatever. I knew that there would be comparisons drawn, but he wasn't, like, an inspiration for the character in any kind of way. Like, I knew, in terms of the backstory for Dougie Jr. We knew that he had spent four years in Jamaica, but that was it. So, of course, like, that would have an influence. But I, I, oh. And they asked us down the hall for this test. They were like, if you happen to play guitar or play an instrument, he was in a band in Jamaica, so bring that in. And I was like, I don't play guitar and sing or whatever. So I came up with the backstory that he was second lead singer in his band, which became the Jive Prophets. And if that came up, which I was hoping that that would elicit the question of, like, what is a second lead singer? And I would say in this audition, I was like, well, you know, so we have our first lead singer and he like sings most of the words and then second lead singer pops in with. That kind of stuff. So that was like my built in backstory, but again, not based on Chet Hanks or anything like that.

[A]

Are all the episodes out? Imagine. You can't give too much away. But I, I. What was it like? Because I'm sure at some point we're gonna, Anthony's gonna find out the truth.

[C]

No, eventually. Yes, eventually. You know, from the first season that eventually there is a reveal that happens that's not spoiling.

[A]

That must have been a very exciting, nerve wracking day going into that.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. God, I wish I could talk about like that day specifically, and I can't yet. But it was, it was like, you know, and drawing in comparisons to like the first season, but like, we've, you know, built up this world and now we're about to like. I would think of it as like, pull the curtain back as opposed to pull the rug out. Cause the pulling a rug out from under one's foot seems mean. And we were just like, you know, revealing the surprise. But the way that Nick Hatton, one of our eps, put it, like from day one and to get through, to get me through, like the little bit of like decept, you know, there's some deception happening, which is fair to say, but that I knew that Anthony's life was gonna change forever. And I knew that the world was gonna see what a great human he is. And I knew that. And as Nick Hatton put it, we were gonna throw him one great big surprise party. And so framing it like that made it a lot easier to tell this super massive little white lie, you know?

[A]

Oh, I gotta ask you a question. I forget the character's name, but he put the fake proposal.

[C]

Kevin. Yeah, Kevin.

[A]

And then, and the, the, the, the woman who's putting on the retreat. Marjorie. Marjorie. And she goes up to Anthony, she's like, honestly, you could just, you should go. Like, I got your back. If you go or if you stay. I got like, what balls. I know for you guys to like, do.

[C]

I wish I could claim those balls. Those balls do not belong to me. Because I was, I was like shitting my pants at that moment. I was like, you're going to ask him what? You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Then it's over.

[A]

Like, I would have been like, yeah, cover for me. This is weird. This is so weird.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we were all terrified. I think that they had a pretty Good sense that he was, you know, had already made some connections and that he was happy to. I mean, this temp agency flew him to Los Angeles for this job. And it's a beautiful property. Oak Canyon Ranch, that's actually the name of the retreat center. And so I think he was like, you know, in spite of that, like, I'm here, I committed. He's also like, I'm getting paid to do this. I'm getting paid exactly for this job. So I think that those were all factors that it was like, you know, risk, reward.

[A]

But it was such a great moment in the show because it legitimizes just the tightrope that you guys walked, which

[C]

is so fascinating and like stating, I'm in, like, I am in for this. Whatever this show is, I'm here for it.

[E]

Also not him being like, also kind of a genius actor. When the realtor from Malibu Realtors comes and he's like, oh, we'll just drop

[D]

it off at your next open house.

[E]

Yeah, like, I'm sorry, you're hired.

[C]

Let's fuck with him. Let's fuck with him. Like, he was just so game to do that stuff. And like, you know, we saw just a snippet of what Marjorie, who's played by. Played by Blair Beacon, who's fantastic. She talked about the Malibu Realtors, like, ad nauseam. It was. We saw her just say, like, they had a cotton candy machine, but it was filled with and like the little tidbits. But like almost every time we saw Marjorie, she was like, sorry, those fucking Malibu Realtors. So she really built it up. And that's why he's like, you know what I mean? He's like, let's fuck with him. And it's funny when that moment was happening. So my room was adjoining with Jerry, who played my dad. And my room was one of the rooms we had. Sometimes they had a camera set set up in there. So we had, what is it? A two way mirror or whatever, so he can't see in, right? So he and I were watching like little schoolboys of like that whole thing go down when like the Porsche pulls up and stuff. And we're like, oh my God, what's he doing? Oh my God, I wish I could hear. Oh, no way. You know? So it was.

[E]

He's like, does this one have turbo in it?

[C]

Did you say turbo?

[E]

Sorry.

[C]

That's also Nick Rutherford, who is one of the original members of the sketch comedy group Good Neighbor with Kyle Mooney and Beck Bennett. And so. And I like grew up on their Sketches. So just a king, a legend as well.

[A]

That's amazing, man. This is so much fun. The show's so great. We're really excited to finish it and see how it all plays out. But you're so good in it, and it's a great show. I really appreciate you giving us a little BTS of how this very fascinating show and franchise is made, man.

[C]

I am thrilled to be here, you guys. Thank you. Seriously, thank you for.

[E]

I feel like this is the only time that you're able to, like, do one of these because then you, like, you truly are famous and you're like, you're. Now you're gonna. It's like now you're the James Marsden of the first season, you know?

[C]

Stop it.

[A]

I mean, more commercials.

[C]

It's so funny. I. So I want to address an elephant in the room. I am wearing makeup. That's not something that I normally do in my day to day life, but I just. This morning I did a little spot on Good Morning Football. I'm a big football fan. Go Chargers. Chargers.

[A]

Chargers.

[C]

Yeah. You're Packers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I have a connection to David Bakhtiari, if you remember.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Y. How's his knee?

[C]

Yeah, Emotionally, he's doing okay, though. His older brother and my older brother were roommates in college.

[A]

Oh, no shit.

[C]

So we knew each other State? Yes. No, no. Colorado.

[A]

Colorado.

[C]

But I went to. And my brother and his brother went to University of San Diego. But anyway, I came from. Speaking of commercials, I was walking into the studio to do this thing, and the guy doing security was like, I know you thinking he's going to talk about, you know, company retreat. And he's like, I'm in a chase commercial right now that's airing where a guy can't make up his mind on what to do with the kitchen. So he's like, I know you. I'm like, yeah, you know, come to Retreat. And he's like, you ever gonna finish that kitchen? So, probably more from that, honestly.

[F]

And I'm.

[C]

I'm genuinely curious, like, because my look is so different.

[A]

So different. Yeah.

[C]

To some degree. And in many situations, I'll be able to hide in plain sight, hopefully.

[A]

Amazing, man. Well, we hope to see more of you out there as the show takes off. It's. It's such a good show. The show is called Retreat. It's on Amazon prime, first five episodes out now.

[B]

Watch them.

[A]

It's very good. It's a great, great show. It's. It's a great. Get in bed.

[C]

It's a feelgood show, man.

[E]

Stress all day and you just like put it.

[A]

I'm a tough laugh and I, I was a real, I was, I was crying, laughing many times. So it's a great show.

[C]

Awesome.

[A]

Alex, we really appreciate man.

[C]

I appreciate you guys. Thank you.

[A]

All right, thanks for listening guys. Thank you to our guests Alex Bonifur and Therapy Jeff for contributing to our conversation. We appreciate all of you. Do not forget the reunion of Age of Attraction is out tomorrow. Be sure to set your clocks, your calendars, your alarms for 4pm Pacific, 7pm Eastern. If you want to watch this reunion unfold for all you eager people out there, you can listen to the audio version at its regular time on Wednesday. We can't wait to hear all your reactions. We'll be talking about it on Thursday along with so many other topics. We'll continue to cover the Bach Charat and the Mormon wives and all the followers fallout that continues with the show. Maybe we'll get some clarity on the summer house rumors, but until then, enjoy the Age of Attraction reunion. Bye Bye. The Global Gaming League is presented by Atlas Earth, the fun cashback app. Hey, it's Howie Mandel and I am invited to inviting you to witness history as me and my How We do it gaming team take on Gilly the King and Wallow. Two six seven million dollars gaming in an epic Global Gaming league video game showdown. Plus a halftime performance by multi platinum artist Travy McCoy. Watch all the action and see who wins and advances to the championship match right [e-mail] that's globalgamingleague.com in partnership with

[C]

Level Up Expo at Charmin.

[A]

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