← The Viall Files
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- [00:00]
Nick Viall
The Five Houses is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Hey, you chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Awkward time to ask this, but. Hey, did you download the trail map?
- [00:24]
Audrey
Yeah. No, I don't need to.
- [00:26]
Nick Viall
I don't understand.
- [00:27]
T-Mobile Announcer
You're trusting your signal out here.
- [00:28]
Audrey
I'm trusting T Mobile. They have the best network and if we end up in bumtots nowhere, well, we've got T Satellite for backup.
- [00:35]
Missy
Whoa.
- [00:35]
Nick Viall
I don't trust my carrier that much.
- [00:37]
Audrey
We'll just use your phone as a flashlight.
- [00:41]
Nick Viall
With America's best network and T Satellite,
- [00:43]
T-Mobile Announcer
we're keeping you connected in places you never thought possible. And if you switch today, you get
- [00:48]
Nick Viall
free phones for zero down and only 25 bucks a month per line for four lines. Find out more@t mobile.com or visit your local store.
- [00:57]
T-Mobile Announcer
Best Mobile Network Based on analysis by Ooklab speed test intelligence data 2H 2025 with 24 monthly bill credits and 4 eligible port ins on essentials for well qualified customers with autopay plus taxes, fees and $35 connection charge per line. Credits and imbalance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel Contact Us Finance Agreement example $299.99 Moto Edge 5G required T Satellite available with compatible device in most outdoor areas in the US where you can see the sky. Included with experience beyond or $10 a month. However, News Monthly cancel anytime.
- [01:19]
Nick Viall
Visit t mobile.com don't forget Vile Files plus now offers ad free episodes for all Vile Files episodes, including Ask Nick Real Deeper plus if you love Ask Nick, you will absolutely love our Ask Nick updates where you get updates of your favorite calls, our Deep Dive on all your favorite reality recap TV shows, and our Pop culture roundup where we talk about all your favorite pop culture topics that we didn't get to in this week's episode. Plus Deep Dives on our Going Deeper guest, and so much more. All you have to do is go to Vi Files plus and you will be lucky you did.
- [01:59]
Sarah
You're crazy.
- [02:10]
Nick Viall
How's it going?
- [02:11]
Missy
Good.
- [02:12]
Audrey
My Name's Audrey. I'm 31 years old. I am pregnant with mine and my husband's third child and I had like an emotional affair with a gym instructor and I'm desperately trying to regain his trust. Okay, because he is saying that he wants to get A divorce.
- [02:33]
Nick Viall
Okay, well, give me the timeline of all of this unfolding.
- [02:38]
Audrey
So I have, like I said, this is a third child, so I have a four and a three year old. I got back into the gym like a little over a year ago. I started going to this, like, group fitness class on a regular basis. I got pretty, I guess, friendly with this guy, obviously.
- [02:57]
Missy
And it.
- [02:58]
Audrey
It started out, like, definitely just as friends, but then he. About maybe four months ago, starting, I would say in like October, beginning of November, I was starting at a new job, and he gave me a card that said a lot of things. Like, I. I wish I could honestly read some of it, but he was just saying all these really nice things that I shine and that at this next job I'm just gonna shine brighter.
- [03:26]
Missy
Like, whatever.
- [03:27]
Audrey
All of this stuff, I guess I kind of fed into it and it kind of just kept progressing from there. Again, it really was like an emotional thing. He was. It was just a lot of talking through, like texting, Snapchatting, things like that. And then we did meet up one time, like in a parking lot situation and kissed. And that's as far as it went from like a physical standpoint. My husband found out on, like, right at the beginning of December. So really for me, it lasted as. As an affair for like two weeks at the most, where it became more. More involved. He looked through my phone like he had a bad feeling. This was the day after that. I'd met up with this guy and he found out we did start couples counseling. He was open to the idea of repairing our marriage from that. I was really stupid. And I kept talking to this guy. And on Christmas Eve, he found out again. And now, now he really is. He's super angry. When he initially found out, he completely lost his mind. He went to the gym. My husband went to the gym, like, announcement style in front of this class, saying, this guy likes to cheat. This guy is also married. No kids, but he's married. This guy likes to cheat on his wife with other women who are pregnant. And I know because he's cheating with my wife.
- [05:20]
Nick Viall
How far along are you in your pregnancy?
- [05:22]
Audrey
Five months. A little bit more now.
- [05:25]
Nick Viall
So you were pregnant and entertaining, you know, and meeting up in a parking
- [05:29]
Audrey
lot and kissing very newly pregnant. You know, there's a lot. There's a lot here. Like, a lot of medical things, a lot of things that happened in the last few years. My second child needed a cardiac surgery right when she was born. A lot of things from, like a mental health standpoint that haven't been great for the last year or two. None of this is an excuse.
- [05:57]
Nick Viall
The part of you that, you know, once your husband found out and went to the gym and made this proclamation, why wasn't that enough for you for it to be a wake up call?
- [06:10]
Audrey
I think that the way that he reacted, like. And he, I have acknowledged he's not at fault for the way he reacted. I probably would have reacted the same. In addition to going to the gym, he sent this guy's wife. Everything was like literally sleeping on the couch with a hammer in case this guy showed up to our house, which he would never do. He went ballistic. Like, he was so, so angry, saying some really mean stuff like not treating me well in front of our kids, etc. Etc. And I think that when that was all happening, I just, you know, I reacted to his reaction, I guess, and I felt like I kind of needed like an outlet during that. And the only person who, you know, it's not something that you go talk about with anybody.
- [07:07]
Nick Viall
So you don't have any. There's no one. There's no one.
- [07:11]
Audrey
No.
- [07:12]
Nick Viall
In your life. Well, friend or a sister or mom who, I mean, not that they would support the bad decision making, but someone you can just be like, I fucked up and this is what's going on. Or even a therapist, I guess, you know, but he was the only one.
- [07:27]
Audrey
I mean, the answer is no. But like, yeah, like, of course I could have talked to somebody else. I mean, but it was like the easiest because he was in it. He knew exactly what happened. He knew exactly what was going on. To be honest with you, I felt a little bit guilty that he like had his life, like publicly shamed and like mine wasn't. I mean, you know, it stayed private for me. Yeah. Another piece is like, I. And like this is a lot of information. I have been on like an anti anxiety drug since my daughter had that cardiac surgery. And I was told to start weaning off of it because of pregnancy. I weaned off of it inappropriately, like accidentally did not follow and I was actively withdrawing. So that's just kind of another piece
- [08:24]
Nick Viall
of like while, while this was all going on.
- [08:27]
Audrey
Literally during. Yeah, right through. So all through December. December was when this all like blew up.
- [08:32]
Nick Viall
So. So I'm curious to just ask you, like, no judgment, you know, you up, what do you think about this situation and like, what do you want to happen and what's your reasoning for wanting to save this marriage? And I guess, you know what I'm saying, like where where, where are you now with all this?
- [08:51]
Audrey
Yeah, so I, again, I mean, you know, kids change things a lot. We met when we were 18 years old and like, you know, it's obviously very easy to like, cultivate a relationship without, you know, any external anything. And everything was great. Let's see, we dated for like six years, including living together before getting married. And then we did have our first kid within a year of getting married and everything obviously changed. And you know, like, we used to. Him and I used to do like phone free Saturdays where we would literally turn our phones off all day long and like, you know, be present with each other and you know, we used to be romantic with each other. You know, like that stuff has been gone for a long time and like a big example for me and it's so stupid. So I'm 31. When I was, when we both turned 30, his birthday's before mine. I like wrote 30 Reasons why I love you, like, on a big poster board and stuff. And like, I, I guess in a way trying to show him what I needed and wanted, you know, like providing that to him in hopes that I would get it back. I don't even know that I knew that was why I was doing it. But like now looking back, I do. And then for my 30th birthday, he gave me a year membership to a car wash. No card? No card, no words, nothing.
- [10:29]
Nick Viall
Like I did that.
- [10:30]
Audrey
I sent him off on like a soccer game trip with his friends. Like, I made a big deal out of it.
- [10:36]
Nick Viall
Do you complain about a dirty car a lot? I'm just like, what? No, that was a completely out of left field yes.
- [10:45]
Audrey
Yeah, I guess. I think the car was new at the time, so, like, fine.
- [10:49]
Nick Viall
Yeah.
- [10:49]
Audrey
You know, like so insignificant and, you know, just like none of the same as what I was like, trying to give him. Like, I haven't, I haven't heard words from him in a long time. You know, like. And so I think this guy, like, I don't. I. These phrases. But it kind of felt like love bombing. Like the things that he was saying to me, like he was just saying, saying all the right things, how special I was, yada, yada, yada.
- [11:15]
Nick Viall
Like, I mean, love bombing is not supposed to work when you're in a committed relationship. So there is that. I mean, listen, I think you have to just own it.
- [11:24]
Audrey
Yeah.
- [11:24]
Nick Viall
And really try to understand why you made this decision. And certainly in that answer, there are no doubt going to be conversations you're going to have with yourself and with your husband. About ways in which you guys lost your connection. I would be very careful about, like, he has his own problems, as you mentioned. He's got his own marriage to deal with. He is not a part of your relationship with your husband. He chose to make these decisions, and, like, you chose to respond to them. But, yeah, I would be careful about painting yourself as a victim in any way as a result of his behaviors. I don't know why he chose to do what he did. And I'm sure he maybe has versions of your story, which is like, again, maybe him and his wife lost their connection to a certain degree. I don't. I don't know. Right. Maybe this all started somewhat innocently, you know, maybe you guys scratched an itch for each other. I don't know. Maybe you. Maybe it's deeper than that, where you have, you know, I don't know. You know, I don't. I don't know the reasons, but I would. If I were you, I would just be like, really? Regardless of what you want with your husband, you can recognize that, like, man, you know, and again, I'm not trying to apply any judgment or shame, but, like, you just have to recognize it's a wild thing to do to be pregnant and to be, like, hiding out in a parking garage with another guy and kissing him. Listen, other people have done crazier things, but it's just like, it. It's just, like, good to be like, wow, that. I can't believe I did that. That was not my best work type of thing. And just. Just try to understand, well, how you got to that place. And certainly, you know, with the medications that you're on and trying to get off, that can play a role. But, like, there obviously are other factors at play. Right. In terms of how you chose to handle this stuff and why didn't you have the guardrails? I guess is the way I'm trying to explain it in terms of, you know, that. That. I don't know, that inner monologue, the conscious. You're conscious, you know, like, why at any point where you was like, shouldn't be doing this. And then after he found out and you obviously saw the hurt it caused your husband and his reaction sounds like it wasn't great. Probably said a lot of inappropriate and disgusting things to you, no doubt. All probably coming from a place of hurt, you know, hurt people. Hurt people. And that was his reaction. That wasn't enough for you to wake up. And I would. If I'm you, I would try to. I wanted. Want to understand that Right. Because obviously these are choices you're making that aren't in your best interest and they're not bringing you happiness. I mean, there's some short term, I guess, gratification that's happening, but you're, as an adult person, a mom. That's not how you want to be making decisions. Yeah. I mean, it's certainly a lack of empathy. You know, there's also this. Like, you. It didn't. Whatever your. However your husband's reaction, it didn't affect you enough to, like, not keep talking to this guy and knowing how much that would hurt. And these are, I guess, again, not to. Not to apply any shame, but, like, it's just why you. It's. Understanding why you made these decisions is really important, I think, for you, regardless of what happens with you and your husband. But I will say, like, you demonstrating that you really want to understand that you got. You just have to own the part that you did wrong. And there needs to be like a path forward for both of you or for you.
- [15:02]
Audrey
Yeah, it's like a weird. It's a weird balance of trying to express to him how much I regret doing what I did. Uh, I really wish I could have recognized at the time that the reason that I was looking for that, like, that I was doing this, that I was feeding into this. I guess instead of talking to my husband, telling him this guy is doing this and I'm feeling like a type of way and recognizing why. It's just a weird. It's a weird balance of, like, owning it and expressing how regretful I am versus, you know, talking about why and, like, what I felt like was missing.
- [15:50]
Nick Viall
Yeah, but listen, I think you just got to be careful about what you're like. You talked about the birthday gift for your husband and Yeah, I mean, like, you got upset. You weren't even thinking about, like, why you might be doing this. And you're, you know, reflecting back and realize that maybe that was you trying to communicate to him. But you guys just have to, like, be able to let. Hey, I need a little bit more from you. I'm feeling this. I'm feeling a little disconnected. I'm feeling a little distant from you, you know, because, like, you're ultimately talking about love languages. Right. It doesn't sound like a much of a gift guy. Not. Certainly not good at giving them type of thing. And like, you know, for all you know, he is trying to show his love in ways that you're not receiving. Maybe he's a acts of service guy. You know, you Know, and just like, I think this is again, typical for couples. Right. Where it's partly we start just taking for granted the things our couple does on the regular basis. If he is an act of service guy, I think a lot of act of service people who. That's how they show love, sometimes feel like what was once an act of service is now just their job. It's like it used to be like, when you first started dating. He get, He. He gets me water anytime I'm thirsty. It's, like, so romantic. And now it's like, I'm thirsty. And we all, like, you know, you're
- [17:05]
Audrey
hitting the nail on the head.
- [17:06]
Nick Viall
Yeah. So you're, you're thinking words of affirmation, gifts. So those are my love languages. That's what I really want. We receive love how we often show love. Right. So like, you know, and the, and as couples, you need to, like, it's. You need to check back in. You need to like, hey, I'm feeling this. Am I missing the mark with you? If you're feeling disconnect. If I'm feeling disconnected from us, I'm. I'm guessing you do too. It feels like maybe we're just going through the motions. How can we reconnect and, and, and check back in? This is ideal even when you're not being courted by your trainer and making you feel, you know, like. Because those are the moments where it's like, wow, someone hit on me. It felt really good to hear something like that. I, I haven't been, like, in a while. And like, that's just a. That's. You didn't do anything wrong there. That's a human response. I don't know if you walk home and. And like, boast about it to your husband, but it can certainly, like, it's a human response to recognize that and feel that and be like, I want to feel that in my relationship again. And so I need to. I need to sit down with my husband and just try to get on the same page without, without assigning blame and without, you know, making emasculating him, you know, but just. It's a, It's a trigger. It's a signal that, like, someone else made me feel a certain way that I want to feel for my husband. And we have kids. We've gone through the most, you know, like, we've been dating for a long time. All the reasons why we might be experiencing some disconnect. There's some truth in our relationship. And so instead of doing the toxic cliche thing, which is to like, give in to other people, giving us attention. And then, you know, when shit hits the fan, kind of, you know, it's like you're doing the thing where you're like, I'm really sorry I'm wrong. But listen, he got, you know, he. He gave me car wash tickets. And clearly I'm. Without, like talking to both of you. I'm sure you have both, over the years, failed to keep that connection going. And you've both missed the mark. And there's no point in keeping score unless it's so way off where you, you know, where you are checking in and you really are trying and you really are asking and you're just hitting a wall and he's just not in any way trying to. He just doesn't give a. And that doesn't sound like your husband. It just like it's. You guys are just a little out of tune. And instead of taking, you know, the guitar and get it all tuned up and, you know, you just had someone fiddle with those strings, so to speak.
- [19:42]
Audrey
Yeah, I mean, like, we like the other. It's all weird timing. We are. It was our five year anniversary in October and we, like, went on a trip. And for probably six to eight months leading up to that, I don't think we spent any time by ourselves, like, without our kids, I mean, together, you know, and like, I don't know how all the time, all that time went by without acknowledging the lack of closeness. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's like you look back and it's like, I have no idea how we got here.
- [20:20]
Nick Viall
You know, life moves fast. I mean, I. I don't think you're alone in that. Right. Where you fell short, I guess is the best way to say it is like instead of using the attention that you got from your trainer is like a wake up call for your marriage. You used it as a wake up call for what you as an individual was not receiving. And it is just trying to understand and in owning that from his standpoint, like, where is he now? Like, where, where what. What is. What's going on with you two?
- [20:49]
Audrey
He's been sleeping on the couch for the last three months. We're still like doing things together as a family, which is kind of weird.
- [20:59]
Nick Viall
Just going through the motions. Yeah.
- [21:01]
Audrey
I did convince him to go back to marriage counseling, so we are. So I literally have that with him today for like the second time. He filed for divorce?
- [21:13]
Nick Viall
No. He did.
- [21:14]
Audrey
Yeah. But I'm very much trying to look at it as, you know, nothing's permanent. Until it's permanent.
- [21:21]
Nick Viall
I mean, how long did he file the divorce for? Divorce?
- [21:25]
Audrey
Like, I literally got that less than a week ago.
- [21:31]
Nick Viall
What conversations have you had with him about this outside of couples therapy?
- [21:37]
Audrey
A lot. I mean, like.
- [21:40]
Nick Viall
Well, how does that go?
- [21:41]
Audrey
Like, it depends on the day. I mean, he's still very much angry. He's still. If I try to initiate any physical and not meaning, like, holding his hand or asking for a hug, he will literally say, I'm just picturing your hands on him, you know, that he. That it's burned in his mind. He, like, analyzed these messages. Like, he. He saw every single message.
- [22:10]
Nick Viall
I mean, how bad was it?
- [22:12]
Audrey
I pro. I guess as bad as it could get. I don't know. I mean, a lot of, like, stupid. Like, I feel like. I feel.
- [22:20]
Missy
I feel like I was in, like,
- [22:21]
Audrey
high school, you know, like, stupid, like, fantasizing with him and, like. And it did go into, like, to talking about, like, the potential of, like, being with him. Like, it was really stupid.
- [22:36]
Nick Viall
Yeah. I mean, you know, I think, you know, when people, like, talk about infidelity and cheating so much is, like, the physical. And obviously, if those. If those boundaries are crossed, that's hard, I think, for a lot of people and a lot. And specifically men, you know, you know how men you always hear in dating are more easily can detach from sex. There's less of an emotional connection. And I think when guys are single, certainly, or, you know, for the. For the bad husbands out there who aren't super faithful, I think they can. They. I think they can relate to the idea that it's just sex, you know, because for a lot of guys, sex is sex. And I'm not saying your husband wouldn't have cared, but, like, him reading these messages, which go beyond. For a lot of guys, it's more hurtful than, you know, I got. I made one stupid thing, and it was just. Again, I'm not saying he would have been better off with that, but to read these comments fantasizing about. Yeah. Leaving him and just like. And to feel while reading it like you had an emotional connection with him that you didn't have with your own husband. I can see why this has been challenging for him.
- [23:55]
Audrey
Yeah, that's what, like. And I actually, like, I really do agree with that. I've thought so many times, like, it probably would have been easier to get over something like this if it was just. Just like, a physical affair. Like, it. I actually, I totally see it that the. The emotional side of it is worse. Like, I'm, you know, like, the words are, as he says, burned in his head. I'm like, yeah, how would he ever. Like, you're never gonna forget.
- [24:24]
Nick Viall
Not right away, no, but he might never forget. But he would think about it less and less and less. And let's say right now he chose not to get a divorce and just was like, I don't know what to do, but I'm just gonna keep being a dad. And I don't hate her, you know, Like, I'm hurt by her, and I don't know if I can love her and feel safe with her the same way I did before. But, like, right now, I'm just kind of going through the motions. Kind of like what you're doing now outside of him filing for divorce and life happened and maybe something. A good moment, you know, like. I don't know, like, people recover from this type of stuff. It does happen. He's just really hurt right now. And you did the unimaginable. But there's a world where you could have a second phase of your relationship. You can repair this stuff if he. If you're both willing, he justifies. He might not want to, but, yeah, he could think about it less and less. Does it ever go away? Probably not. But eventually he. You could start making new memories together, and then it would get to the point of. Of having something in your life, a moment you have with your family, and realize this probably doesn't happen if we didn't go through the shit. And sometimes you have to go through the shit, and you got to fight through it. Am I making any sense?
- [25:45]
Audrey
Yeah.
- [25:46]
Missy
Yeah.
- [25:47]
Audrey
It's just. Yeah. Like, one of the messages that he was really bothered by was. And this was the guy saying it, like, in some weird way. Like, I'm almost hopeful that this, like, helps our marriages. I hate even saying this out loud, you know, to. To be eye opening to, like, what we both needed and weren't getting. And. And that's something that he is. He was very mad about reading, like, thinking that doing. By doing that. That that would help, you know, which I get. But I also kind of do, like, in a way, feel that way. Like, it's like, I don't know if I ever would have, like, come to the realization about how lost our connection was.
- [26:35]
Nick Viall
Sure you would have. I mean, that. See, stuff like. I think that stuff like that you have to. You have to do a better job of owning. Right. Like, it would have happened later, longer, I don't know, to act like you didn't need this to happen to realize you felt a little distance from your husband. You felt distance from your husband when you gave him that birthday card. Then you received your birthday gift. You just like, didn't. You weren't honest with yourself about what you were feeling. And again, you felt a little disconnected. And then you chose to do what you did. Right. So like, you just. It's not that you didn't realize. You obviously realize, which is why you got yourself into this pickle. It's just you were just. You were. You two were obviously justifying your poor decision making at the time. Most people.
- [27:21]
Audrey
Yeah.
- [27:22]
Nick Viall
Don't wake up. You know, most people aren't like, I haven't cheated, but I'm definitely going to someday. Yeah. Like, no, no one really says that. Right.
- [27:30]
Audrey
Well, and I wasn't before.
- [27:32]
Nick Viall
Sure, I get that. Right. But when, you know. So you got yourself in this situation, and then you're in this situation, a situation that you hadn't been in before. And chances are before you had been in this situation, if you come across someone who was making the same decisions you were making, you would be more critical and more judgmental. And how could you do that type of thing as most people would? Right. Because we don't think of ourselves as those types of people. And then when we are, when we find ourselves to be those in those situations. Yeah. Like, again, we make excuses, we justify it. I don't know what conversation. There's no magic pill of what you can say to your husband, but I think it really comes down to I really failed us. I failed you, I failed myself. And instead of coming to you and trying to work on our connection, I focus on my own needs and I didn't show up for you. And I really, at this point, the biggest regret of my life. And I hope you're willing to give our marriage and me a second chance. And I understand that it will take some time to earn your trust back. And you're right. I can't take back what I said. Only that, like it was coming from a place of. Of sadness and not having, you know, and. And I, you know, I really regret it, but it's. That's not who I want to be with. And I just took a real chicken way out and kind of really own own that. And I really want to fight for our connection and I want to fight for our marriage and, And. But I realized that, like, I'm asking a lot. Was the last time you thanked him for something.
- [29:04]
Audrey
Well, yeah. Now there's a lot of that. I mean, I'm trying to do all the right things, like, you know what I mean? Like, I'm thanking him several times a day.
- [29:14]
Nick Viall
Okay, well, that's good.
- [29:15]
Audrey
I mean, yeah, there's been a lot, like, again, so many conversations in this time. Like, there's been a lot of saying exactly those things, you know, but then, like, he'll he like one night outright asked me like, like, why did you have to taste somebody else like, to. To see my value and you know, like that.
- [29:39]
Nick Viall
See, in those moments, it's like, I, you're right. I didn't, I didn't have to.
- [29:45]
Audrey
You were right.
- [29:45]
Nick Viall
I, I made a really poor choice and I want to figure out why I, I was, you know, why I, you know, you were weak in that moment. And I don't know, like, I hope you're an individual. Therapy. I mean, couples therap a way for you guys to explore how you guys lost connection. There's probably some things that you need to like, explore within yourself, because again, that part every couple experiences disconnect. Every couple goes through what you and your husband went through, not necessarily the specific incidences and, and, and, and children, obviously. I mean, can't even imagine. My heart goes out to you and your husband for whatever scary times you had to experience with your daughter. But every couple goes through these moments. The difference is some couples, like, work through it, stick together, acknowledge it, and put the work in. And some people do what you did, right? And to find out why you did that is really important. Somehow. You have to try to figure out a way to assuming this is true, that it had nothing to do with this guy.
- [30:52]
Audrey
That's pretty much exactly what I was initially saying was like this. It wasn't about him. It was what I was receiving.
- [30:58]
Nick Viall
And like, well, that's where you have to change the narrative. That's like, hey, it's. It wasn't this guy, it was you. And you have to be like, it wasn't this guy, it was me.
- [31:08]
Audrey
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I mean.
- [31:11]
Nick Viall
Yeah, but it's not what you say, and I don't know if it's what you mean, you know, because you consistently, you know, it's. Listen, it's hard. You. You fucked up. And the best way through this is to just completely own it. What's scary for someone in his shoes is that again, all our feelings are valid. They are feelings. That's what they are. They just show up. Things happen, our body responds, and then we try to process our feelings. Right. Our feelings might be valid, but Again, we all are responsible for handling our feelings. And you handled your feelings in a very destructive way. The way you talk, it seems like you can't, you know, your feelings are valid and you felt this way and that's, you know, but it's like that's. He wants to be able to trust you, to be able to have feelings, whatever those feelings are, especially feelings that aren't when, when you don't feel great about him or the connection. He needs to trust that you're still in the fight with him. And the thing he's having the hardest time probably processing is that, like, that's the thing you didn't do. You weren't in the fight with him. You checked out. You went to. You went to another man to process those feelings, and that was obviously very hurtful for him. If you guys don't get divorced and you go to couples therapy, individual therapy, and you put all this effort in and really build back this connection, it's possible for sure. What's also most likely is that five years from now, life will happen and you might lose a little bit of touch. And he needs to know in that moment that you're not going to choose you again and you're not going to check out and you're not going to go to another man when your current man is like, dropping the ball a little bit, you know, because none of us are perfect, you know, and we all lose sight of some of the important things. And it's just. It's hard enough to make relationships work inside of a marriage, as you know. You just need to know that that person's not finding, you know, so easily convinced that they can. That they can replace that security that your husband thought, if nothing else, I provide this for my wife and my family. And you were like, yeah, I can get it from my trainer. Does that make sense?
- [33:18]
Missy
I think.
- [33:19]
Audrey
Oh, yeah, totally. I think part of the problem is, like, I've, again, like, I've said a lot of these things, both alone in individual counseling and couples counseling, like, the owning part. And I think that in my own head, I'm just very desperate to get to the part of rebuilding our connection, and I'm not being patient enough. And, like, part of it is because
- [33:44]
Missy
I'm having a baby.
- [33:47]
Nick Viall
Yeah, I mean, listen, that's, that's. I'm really. That sucks. Like, listen, I, I get, I get what you're feeling makes a lot of sense. I think you just have to try right now, put your baby first, put your kids first, and just do what you can, you know, as far as working on yourself in healing. And right now, I think you really need to, like, obviously it sounds like you already are, but, like, expect very little from your husband and just do. Do the thing, you know, and. And hope that it comes around. But he needs to just know that you understand that. Like, I really. I understand what I did is so damning to us, and I wish I could take it back. I obviously can't. But it wasn't about him. And while we certainly have, like, we lost our connection, but, like, it was about how I chose to handle that, and that's on me, and I want to not do that.
- [34:41]
Audrey
Yeah.
- [34:42]
Nick Viall
And hopefully he's. Hopefully he can try to get over the hurt a little bit. But, yeah, I mean, it's. It's. It's a problem. I can't imagine what you're both going through. It's tricky. You know, you both are trying to. You both are very confused about what to do. You're in a tough spot. I'm sorry. But on the way to couples therapy today, I would maybe just say, hey, I really appreciate you still coming to this for me. I know it's not really what you want to do, and I definitely don't deserve you still showing up, but I really appreciate it. I don't know if this was helpful. I hope. I hope it was.
- [35:15]
Audrey
No, it was actually, you know, like, again, you know, you can't really. It's not something that there's a ton of people you want to talk to about this. So to get a guy's perspective is helpful.
- [35:27]
Nick Viall
Yeah. But, yeah, again, just try to understand what. What, why you did this. I think you're not quite there yet. The lack of connection certainly was a catalyst for how this all went down, but it's not why you made the choices that you did and why you agreed to meet up with them in the parking garage or why you decided to re. Engage the conversation even. You know, these are all like, something inside you is causing you to do these kind of destructive things that deep down you knew were destructive, and you did them anyways. And. And that's something you should definitely explore and understand. These were just poor decisions that you. You knew were poor decisions. You did them any anyways, knowing it would hurt you, it would hurt people you love. And. And we sometimes do these very destructive things even though we know they're not healthy for us. But understanding the why there is important. Well, keep your head up. You'll get through this. You will. And the more you understand why you made these decisions and the more you just try to make healthier, long term decisions for yourself and your family that will help you heal and go forward regardless of what your husband decides. Just try to make good, healthy choices for yourself and feel good about those choices. I think things will get a little bit better, but you'll, you'll get through this.
- [36:44]
Audrey
All right. Thank you very much.
- [36:45]
Nick Viall
All right. Take care.
- [36:46]
Audrey
You too.
- [36:48]
Nick Viall
What's up everybody? We have a very exciting announcement for all the Ass Nick audience out there. We have new Instagram and TikTok specifically for Ask Nick. So if you want to avoid all the pop culture and reality TV content that we're putting out there and just focus on all things relationship, dating, interpersonal relationships, and just Ask Nick content, just please give us a follow. It's Ask Nick Viall on Instagram and TikTok. So give us a follow and enjoy. We'll be glad that you did. Go on and give us a follow. Awkward time to ask this, but. Hey, did you download the trail map?
- [37:29]
Audrey
Yeah, no, I don't need to.
- [37:31]
Nick Viall
I. I don't understand.
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T-Mobile Announcer
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Audrey
I'm trusting T Mobile. They have the best network and if we end up in bumtots nowhere, well, we've got T satellite for backup. Whoa.
- [37:40]
Nick Viall
I don't trust my carrier that much.
- [37:42]
Audrey
We'll just use your phone as a flashlight.
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Nick Viall
With America's best network and T Satellite,
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Nick Viall
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- [38:25]
Dr. Laurie Santos
mobile.com this is Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab and this message is brought to you by Simple Mills. On our show we talk a lot about strategies like temptation, bundling and implementation intentions. Those research backed ways to make good habits stick. And there's some powerful evidence to suggest that the right Snack can also support the other habits you're trying to build. Take a snack like Simple Mills. Their almond flour crackers are made with almond flour, sunflower seeds and flaxseeds. Simple Mills refers to their almond flour crackers as sunshine in every bite. And there is truth to that. It's a snack that lifts you up instead of weighing you down. And if you haven't tried them yet, Simple Mills popums are light, airy, cheese puffed crackers made with vegetables. A quick crunch like that can reinforce the habit loop without sabotaging your energy. Find Simple Mills at your grocery store.
- [39:19]
Nick Viall
How's it going?
- [39:20]
Sarah
Oh, it's going all right. Going good.
- [39:22]
Nick Viall
What's your name?
- [39:23]
Sarah
My name is Sarah.
- [39:24]
Nick Viall
How old are you, Sarah?
- [39:25]
Sarah
31. So I broke up with my long term boyfriend. I'm feeling a lot of regret. Did I make the right call?
- [39:32]
Nick Viall
Okay, how long ago did you guys break up?
- [39:34]
Sarah
We broke up officially last April, but
- [39:40]
Nick Viall
it's almost a year.
- [39:42]
Sarah
But almost a year. But spent a lot of the summer together actually. So spent two months apart. We're kind of talking and hanging out for about three months throughout the summer and then had communication in the fall.
- [39:59]
Nick Viall
So you haven't really spoken with him since the fall?
- [40:02]
Sarah
I'd like to say yes, but no. I found out he has a girlfriend at Christmas and I might have done the wrong thing and reached out to him then when I found out. So we talked about a little that day and had one phone call and that's been about it. My dad had surgery a month later, so we were kind of checking in about that and that was. It's been about two months since we last talked.
- [40:32]
Nick Viall
You ended the relationship?
- [40:34]
Sarah
I did, yeah.
- [40:34]
Nick Viall
How do you take it initially?
- [40:36]
Sarah
Not well. We definitely talked about it for quite some time leading up to it. I did have a job opportunity that came up and I ultimately made the choice to take a job. And when I took that job, we immediately ended things without really saying much.
- [40:57]
Nick Viall
And that job required you to move?
- [40:59]
Sarah
Yeah, in a way. I work remote for about five months out of the year currently.
- [41:05]
Nick Viall
So you were together when this job promote opportunity came up?
- [41:10]
Sarah
Yeah.
- [41:11]
Nick Viall
And was it. Did you guys have conversations like why did it. Why did it have to impact your relationship?
- [41:17]
Sarah
I didn't think it did, but I brought it up, potentially breaking up already. It was a big change and he wanted to. We actually didn't live together. We were together for eight years but never lived together. He wanted to move in and I was really scared to take that plunge. And so when I took the job, it was kind of a signal to him, I think, that I was trying to think of myself and not necessarily of the relationship at that point.
- [41:45]
Nick Viall
How do you see it?
- [41:48]
Sarah
I see it pretty complicated. I think he's always had a lot of thoughts in his head of where we should go with our relationship. And I think at that same time, I had a lot of fears on my end that I did not communicate well at all. He actually proposed to me just over a year ago, a year and a few months ago, and initially said yes, but was very caught off guard. Like, we didn't talk about it. So I think that just kind of showed that he always had these thoughts and hopes, and he didn't really share them with me all the time, and I didn't communicate my fears very well.
- [42:22]
Nick Viall
So you were together for like, six, seven years, and you guys just never talked about.
- [42:27]
Sarah
No, we, like, we talked about wanting, like, that. We both wanted that ultimately. But call.
- [42:32]
Nick Viall
Are you.
- [42:32]
Sarah
Again, we didn't talk about what it would look like. 31.
- [42:35]
Nick Viall
Okay. So. Yeah. You guys met in your early 20s, right? Yeah.
- [42:38]
Sarah
Yeah.
- [42:39]
Nick Viall
Dated throughout your entire 20s. And, like, it just.
- [42:42]
Sarah
Yeah.
- [42:42]
Nick Viall
You guys never talked about where this is going or, like. Like, did you, like. I mean, it sounds like maybe he did a little bit, but it sounds like you.
- [42:50]
Sarah
Yeah, we did a bit. I think Covid was, like, a tough point for us. We were, like, going to move in together. Covid hit. He lost his dad. A lot of big things were happening from there. Kind of was like, we can't right now. He has to be with his mom. And then anytime he would bring it up, I. I've recently learned I'm probably an avoidant.
- [43:13]
Missy
Sure.
- [43:13]
Sarah
Relationship style or attachment style. And yeah, I'm really realizing how much that's impacted things. So I. I would avoid at all costs, that's for sure.
- [43:23]
Nick Viall
But what. I guess. And I'm. I'm no attachment style expert, but I'm assuming you're avoiding things that you have discomfort with or would you just avoid any conversation, period? Like,
- [43:36]
Sarah
yeah, I'm like a kid of divorce. I think I've always wanted to be married and, like, settle down, but I think have a lot of fears associated with it. So anytime things really started to get real, I would really lean into those fears and push everything away.
- [43:54]
Nick Viall
Have you worked on that or explored that side of yourself lately?
- [43:59]
Sarah
We're trying a little here and there with some occasional therapy and stuff like that. So definitely trying to figure it out.
- [44:06]
Nick Viall
Like, you. Like, what is it? What does occasional therapy look like a
- [44:10]
Sarah
little bit during the relationship was when it was ending or kind of when we were figuring things out. I was going on my own and kind of started to go a little bit on my own now lately, but just trying to figure out what I want from it because it's a big investment.
- [44:26]
Nick Viall
For sure. For sure. Just to paint a picture, you had a relationship for eight years, and then kind of on a whim, you ended this relationship, mostly because you mostly just kind of, like, didn't know the answer. But I wanted to avoid having the conversations to figure out what those answers were. And then you let a little bit of disconnect or confusion that you both had around, like, where's this relationship going? And then this job, you guys allowed to use it as a sign that maybe you weren't in it. And he made some assumptions based off of how he was reading the situation, which made a lot of sense, which is like, she's not. I don't. She doesn't. She doesn't really want to move things forward. And then she broke up with me.
- [45:19]
Sarah
Yeah. I think the only other thing I would add that, like, became a really big, like, sticky point for us was a lot of, like, political differences started to arise in the past few years that I struggled with, like, quite a bit.
- [45:35]
Nick Viall
And how did you struggle with them?
- [45:37]
Sarah
I definitely didn't talk through them. Yeah, we just really did align on some big political topics and political views.
- [45:45]
Nick Viall
And were these things past few years? Sure, sure. Which I think a lot of people relate to and.
- [45:52]
Sarah
Yeah.
- [45:52]
Nick Viall
But I guess I'm curious, how much did these points of views did you guys have about world politics or what you see online? How much did that actually impact your relationship or connection?
- [46:06]
Sarah
Yeah, I think I let a lot of outside influence, like, get at me quite a bit, like friends, family, things like that. But, yeah, we would definitely get into some heated debates or arguments around that kind of thing. And I think I let it cloud the way, like, I viewed him and our future, like, raising kids and, like, gender politics and raising a family and knowing how, like, our household might view things differently. And I, yeah, definitely leaned into those differences and let a lot of those fears hold me back.
- [46:43]
Nick Viall
Yeah, again, these are tricky topics. Why do you feel this regret? Why are you feeling regret?
- [46:49]
Sarah
I think, like, when we were breaking up, I was kind of grasping at straws, kind of feeling like, oh, maybe, like, maybe I don't love him. Like, I'm not in love. Like, I always will love him. I care about him. But, like, how do you know that this is the right person. Again, I think a lot of divorce, kid issues, a lot of, like, uncertainties and like, not knowing or, like, not knowing how to know for sure. And then once I saw that he was in a relationship and even kind of leading up to, like, is this going to be our last conversation? Just like, not the most emotional person, but I would just break down, like, and be a total wreck and, oh, sorry, I'm definitely going to cry. But yeah, I've just been very emotional like I have never been before. And, like, can't stop thinking about it. It's been over two months since we last talked and it's really the only thing. Thing I think about at all times and, like, picture what our life could have been like together and, like, really makes me question everything I did and, like, makes me worry that, like, I kind of up my life a bit and, like, threw it all away.
- [48:01]
Nick Viall
Yeah.
- [48:01]
Sarah
For. For nothing. So. Sorry.
- [48:05]
Nick Viall
That's okay. Listen, I. You didn't up your life. One of the dumbest phrases out there is no regrets. You know, like, of course we have regrets. You know, of course. Of course we make decisions that we've realized that, like, I just, I. Boy, I would have done that differently. Not in my best interest. But, like, life is about making mistakes and making choices that we regret and then the willingness to learn from them. Right, Right. So, like, if I have no impact on this conversation for you, I just want to give you some perspective to whatever degree that you reg this decision. Right. And you can regret this decision. And also, it doesn't ruin your life.
- [48:45]
Audrey
Yeah.
- [48:46]
Nick Viall
But you do have to be willing to do something about it. Right. And we were. You were talking about therapy and you were talking about your attachment styles and things like that, and it is a big investment therapy. But if this is a decision that you regret, and if this is a decision that you haven't fully processed and figured out why you felt the way you did, and now you're just kind of guessing, was it this? Was it? That was I influenced by this? Was it? But for whatever reason in the moment that you were going through this with your. Your ex boyfriend, you didn't lead in. You kind of pulled away and you don't even have those answers. So, like, while I understand therapy is a big investment, like, this is if. While it didn't ruin your life, it certainly might have altered it, and it certainly was a consequential decision that you realize could certainly change the trajectory of your life. I've had a lot of relationships in my life that I had a hard time getting over at various periods of time. There were times where I wasn't happy with their decision. But I, I don't regret any relationship I'm not in today. And this is still relatively fresh for you. Where I really empathize for you is the, the lack of clarity that you do have because you ended this relationship anyways. This is all to say, like, maybe it's worth the investment for you to put in the work. Even if it is some costly money. It doesn't sound fun. Spend money on therapy. I get that. But I think to the degree that it does affect our mental health and we are making poor decisions that are not in our best interest long term, and we are having a hard time understanding why we make the decisions that we make. Finding a really good therapist that really helps us, give us a new perspective and stop ruminating about things we can't change because that's what you're doing now. And just make better healthy is a really good, good investment. You're still young, you're only 31, but like, these are really valuable years for you right now. And I would hate for you to like, waste some of these more valuable years ruminating over something you can't control, which is like, honestly, like his relationship right now or not being willing to like, make the investment just get you unstuck because you're just very stuck right now.
- [51:01]
Sarah
Yeah.
- [51:02]
Nick Viall
And that's why you're feeling what you're feeling. And in my book, I talk about a lot of it's from the lens of someone who breaks up with. With you, comes back into your life, and it's very confusing. And it's just like, just remember, like, when they ended that relationship, on some level, whether, whether they were right or wrong, they thought they could do better than this relationship or you. I guess in some regard, part of that is somewhat true. And then when they come back in this relationship, there is a level of just a lack of patience. Something taught them, something thought that this relationship wasn't serving them and they thought they could do better. And most of the time, our guts aren't wrong. We might have a hard time understanding our guts or listening to our gut, but most of the time our gut knows what we want. And when people come back, it's just a lack of patience because they haven't found the thing that they hoped or assumed would just come into their lives faster than it did. And then when you add to the fact that he found someone else, it gives you a sense of panic. And so there's just a really good chance it's not him and it isn't the biggest regret of your life, but you just haven't been able to process why you left that relationship, really understand it in a healthy way. And he did, and that hurts and there triggers your ego. But, like, I would, if I were you, I would stop telling yourself that this isn't worth an investment to help yourself get unstuck.
- [52:22]
Sarah
Yeah. Well, I feel like you answered my question that I've been asking myself too, is like, I've wanted to reach out. Like, I've done all the, like those things where you like, write a letter but don't send it or like write a text but not send it. And I want to send it so badly and I'm like, should I, should I just tell him that I want to be with him? But probably your answer would be no.
- [52:46]
Nick Viall
I'm guessing no. I don't, I don't. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. I think, yeah, if you send it, you should assume you're not going to get the answer you want.
- [52:56]
Missy
Yeah.
- [52:56]
Nick Viall
If you're like reflecting back for the past year and yeah, we talked here, we talked there, but I never really told him I regretted it. So if I'm him and I broke up with him, I don't know what he thinks about that.
- [53:10]
Sarah
Yeah.
- [53:10]
Nick Viall
And if there's any part of you that's wondering if, if he still has feelings, if you really put yourself out there, would he change his mind then shoot your shot.
- [53:17]
Sarah
Yeah, I definitely am, like, hanging on to, like, some of the last, last words kind of thing. Like, like I would, like when he said, like, I would never have given up if I knew, like, you were there. Like, like he bought a place in the city I live while we were broken up in hopes that we might get together one day. So, like, there's just some things that I'm definitely hanging myself up on.
- [53:42]
Nick Viall
So, I mean, listen, you guys dated for eight years. He's been dating this chick for a couple months. Like, I don't know if, listen, if he is fully in love with her and it's moved on, that might be the case. And honestly, maybe he needed to meet someone else to get over. You know, I needed that when I. When my first relationship was for seven years, off and on, like, I was. I just, I needed, like, to meet someone else. And honestly, I have said this before. I never felt like I fully got over girlfriend number one until after girlfriend number two and I broke up. I Never went back to girlfriend number one because, you know, it was really toxic. And I just was like, I realized it wasn't healthy. Maybe he's realizing that too. And you have to allow him to feel that way and not have it, like, really set you back. And you need to have to trust your gut and his gut that maybe there is a reason why in over eight years, you guys couldn't move things forward. But at the same time, maybe it really is a product of this attachment style. In fairness to him, if you need to really understand that, you really, really. You need to know if that's the answer. And I don't know if you know if that's the answer. You don't know if this is a reaction to. Life hasn't moved the way you wanted it to move in the past six months, and then you finally had a girlfriend, and it's just like, what am I doing? And it's a fair question for him to ask, like, why wasn't that enough when I was there? Once you get what you want in this moment, which is to get him back, are you gonna. Is it gonna be a. Back to the. Oh, did I panic? Did I. Did I fight for something because I didn't have it. Now I have it, and I don't know if I want it.
- [55:17]
Sarah
Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, yeah, in the fall, I was like, okay, I have to, like, get on the apps. I have to, like, put out there. And then I realized, holy. Like, I haven't grieved, like, our relationship. I haven't figured myself out. So, yeah, definitely trying to. Trying to do that now.
- [55:35]
Nick Viall
Yeah. And it takes some times. Eight years is a long time with someone. Listen, I. If there's a party that wants to send a letter, send a letter. I don't know.
- [55:41]
Sarah
Yeah.
- [55:42]
Nick Viall
And it might be. Feel good for you to just really put yourself out there. Like, it, like, right now, if you would, like, would you. Are you ready to get engaged to him? Like, what do you want?
- [55:51]
Sarah
I want. I do think I want that. Like, I want to have a family more than. More than anything. And. Yeah, I just feel like I've let a lot of my fears hold myself back from even, like, considering that, like, even just fears in life. Like, things can go wrong in life. And I think I just, like, kind of let that get in my way for a long time. So.
- [56:17]
Nick Viall
Yeah. Yeah.
- [56:18]
Sarah
Like, yeah, part of me thinks that. Part of me really feels that, you know, I. If he said yes tomorrow, like, I would jump right onto that. But I Do know that I need to still work on myself even.
- [56:33]
Nick Viall
Oh, we all do.
- [56:34]
Audrey
Even.
- [56:35]
Sarah
Yeah.
- [56:36]
Nick Viall
Honestly, part of me thinks you should send the letter as a way to just feel good about you putting yourself out there and, like, knowing that, like, this probably won't. This probably won't go the way I want, but, yeah, I will survive putting myself out there and really, you know, making a grand gesture and trying. And if we don't try, we will definitely not get what we want. And you spent. Yeah, Yeah. A lot of. A lot of time with him avoiding moving things forward out of the fear of the unknown and the risk that, like, a step forward would hurt more if it ended up going. Taking a step back. And you have come to realize that you can still lose out on special things in your life by just avoiding them altogether. And so that's not. That's definitely won't work. So.
- [57:24]
Missy
Yeah.
- [57:24]
Nick Viall
And, like, learn the lesson. I don't think no matter what happens in your life 20 years from now, you're going to be regretting this moment unless you obsess over it to the point where you just keep making bad decision after bad decision, but definitely determined
- [57:38]
Sarah
not to let that happen.
- [57:41]
Nick Viall
And then it won't. It won't. But reaching out to him to not get the answer you want will definitely give you some closure because this is a guy who has stood by your side over the years while you have been indecisive and avoidant, as you say. And so there's that part of you that still has that hope that he just needs a little encourage, you know, like, he's just given up on him. It's like, you don't blame him from giving up on you because you kind of gave him nothing to fight for anymore.
- [58:16]
Sarah
Yeah, totally. Yeah.
- [58:17]
Nick Viall
He just might have moved on. He might have realized that this wasn't the best relationship for us, and he has the right to feel that way. And if he does feel that way, maybe there's some truth in it that you need to, like, accept. But all I'm saying is there's a part of you that's probably having a hard time moving on, wondering if you. What if I shot my shot? But is it too late to shoot my shot? And. And what if I really put myself out there? And what. But if he says no, that'll really hurt, but just fucking just do it. And then if it. If you don't get the answer you want, just be like, it had to be done. I needed to say it. I did some version of that, like, long ago. And I definitely don't regret it. And I didn't get the answer I wanted. That's good to know in the. In the moment. But it definitely felt good to just say it because it was something that never really. There was things I never really said and we kind of, I don't know, you know, a different situation. But, yeah, I don't regret it and I don't think about that person at all. But in the moment, I, you know, I felt like I needed to put it out there. So, yeah, I don't. I don't think there's not a lot of harm that can come from you sending this letter or reaching out.
- [59:26]
Sarah
Yeah, I guess I was like, didn't. Don't want to be that, like, crazy ex portrayed, but like, at the same time, who cares? To whoever for so long.
- [59:36]
Nick Viall
Yeah, you will be the crazy, annoying ex. Crazy to her. I don't know. But who cares? Yes. The reality is this is someone who's in your life for eight years. It was very meaningful and certainly right now. And, you know, if you guys don't get back together, you know, I can't. It is. You're only 31. When you're my age, this will be such a distant memory. You won't remember him. You won't know him. It's a weird, bizarre thing. It is crazy. You know, as you get older, I've had very meaningful relationships at the time. We're in the most important relationship in my life. And now I don't know who these people are.
- [60:15]
Sarah
Yeah, that's a crazy, crazy thought for me right now. But I definitely have to have that perspective sometimes.
- [60:20]
Nick Viall
So the difference between, yeah, I think me and you in that moment is like, you. This avoidant part of you is stopping you from putting yourself out there. And again, I'm no expert when it comes to this, but I imagine people who are like you often feel like regret because you avoid really putting yourself out there out of fear of something that bad can happen. And you don't even allow the bad thing to happen. You try to beat it to the punch, and then the regret comes from the, like, well, I don't even know if that bad thing would have happened.
- [60:51]
Sarah
Yeah, Hit the nail on the head there, I think.
- [60:53]
Nick Viall
Try to work on that for sure. Because that is something that is hard to process. And disappointment is inevitable in life, especially the people we love the most. Finding someone who is willing to fight for us and work with us, but we do have to give them something to fight for.
- [61:09]
Sarah
He fought for a long time So I, like, definitely give him the credit of, like, he was fighting against just me who was not putting in the same effort.
- [61:20]
Nick Viall
So, yeah, I would make the investment, whatever that looks like for you.
- [61:25]
Sarah
Yeah.
- [61:26]
Nick Viall
And processing why you make some of these choices, because I don't think you fully have the answers yet. And, like, it'll be an ongoing thing you work on. But instead of like, it's so easy for us to be like, oh, my God, a couple hundred bucks for therapy, it's just like, I don't. It's a lot of money, and it's just like. But like, like you just said, this is all you think about. It's consuming your entire life. Think of how much energy and time and resources that you're putting into this that do have. I mean, there is a legitimate cost you can attribute to not. Not addressing this, that it can even be financial. And so when you think of in those terms, this would be a. This investment makes a lot of sense for you, assuming you can afford it, you know, and, like, you do make sacrifices in other areas. Final thought before I let you go. But, like, yeah, if you are investing a lot of emotional energy into something or someone and that emotional energy that you're investing in ultimately is just making you sad or unhappy, then that is a. Is an important single signal that, like, something needs to change. And it would be worth it to recalibrate where your emotional energy is going, to things that make you happy and to feeling unstuck. When we're stuck in these kind of emotional, unhappy states of mind. It's really costly. And to that end, I think that's where it's definitely more than worth it to seek help.
- [62:57]
Sarah
Yeah. Definitely need to recommit to that for sure. And I think send that letter out and get. Hopefully it helps me to stop thinking about it so much if I just say that. Get the things out that I wanted to say.
- [63:12]
Nick Viall
Yeah, it sounds like you need to do that and to let the chips fall where they may. But getting it out, clearly, whatever amount of time you are spending wondering what would happen if you send that letter is a good sign that you should just send a damn letter.
- [63:25]
Sarah
Yeah, definitely. Very Right.
- [63:28]
Nick Viall
All right, well, let us know what you do. I would love to know.
- [63:32]
Sarah
Yeah, for sure.
- [63:34]
Nick Viall
What happens.
- [63:34]
Sarah
But thanks so much.
- [63:36]
Nick Viall
My pleasure. Sorry you're feeling like this, but it'll get better. You didn't ruin your life, but what you do right now, I think will really make a big difference on where your life goes.
- [63:44]
Sarah
Yeah, I. I totally agree.
- [63:47]
Nick Viall
All right. All right. Take care.
- [63:48]
Sarah
Thanks. You too.
- [63:50]
Nick Viall
All right. Bye. Bye. Awkward time to ask this, but. Hey, did you download the trail map?
- [63:56]
Audrey
Yeah. No, I don't need to.
- [63:58]
Nick Viall
I. I don't understand.
- [63:59]
T-Mobile Announcer
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- [64:00]
Audrey
Here I'm trusting T Mobile.
- [64:02]
Nick Viall
They have the best network.
- [64:03]
Audrey
And if we end up in bumtots nowhere, well, we've got T satellite for backup.
- [64:07]
Sarah
Whoa.
- [64:07]
Nick Viall
I don't trust my carrier that much.
- [64:09]
Audrey
We'll just use your phone as a flashlight.
- [64:13]
Nick Viall
With America's best network and T Satellite,
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Nick Viall
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- [64:52]
Dr. Laurie Santos
mobile.com this is Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab and this message is brought to you by Simple Mills. On our show we talk a lot about strategies like temptation, bundling and implementation intentions. Those research backed ways to make good habits stick. And there's some powerful evidence to suggest that the right snack can also support the other habits you're trying to build. Take a snack like Simple Mills. Their almond flour crackers are made with almond flour, sunflower seeds and flaxseeds. Simple Mills refers to their almond flour crackers as sunshine in every bite. And there is truth to that. It's a snack that lifts you up instead of weighing you down. And if you haven't tried them yet, Simple Mills Pop ems are light airy cheese puffed crackers made with vegetables. A quick crunch like that can reinforce the habit loop without sabotaging your energy. Find simple meals at your grocery store.
- [65:46]
Nick Viall
How's it going?
- [65:47]
Missy
Hey, I'm Missy. I'm 37. My husband is Catholic, was raised Catholic and I've been wanting to convert but I know my mom is going to be very against it. So just wanted your advice.
- [65:58]
Nick Viall
Okay, well why your. Why would your mom be against against it?
- [66:02]
Audrey
So my, you know I grew Up
- [66:03]
Missy
Christian, you know, always going to church. We're Protestant, the Congregational Church. And my parents have always been very involved in whatever church they're a part of. So right now, the church, you know, it's in our hometown. They retiled the floors of the hall themselves. They've put, like, their blood, sweat, and tears into the church, helping with the church. My mom's a deacon. My dad sings in the choir, so they're very much tied.
- [66:29]
Nick Viall
They're hardcore. Mom's a deacon to the church.
- [66:32]
Missy
Yeah.
- [66:32]
Nick Viall
Okay.
- [66:33]
Missy
Yep. So, yeah, that. And, you know, when my husband and I got married, you know, he grew up Irish Catholic, and we were going to get married in the Catholic church and go through pre Cana and everything. And my mom did know that, but eventually we. We didn't do it because we ended up getting married in our backyard. And the Catholic priest won't come to your backyard and marry a Protestant to a. To a Catholic. So we're just like, oh, it's fine. We'll just get married by, you know, my. My parents. Pastor at the time, and my husband, you know, wasn't really pushing for it, and now he's kind of regretted it, so.
- [67:05]
Nick Viall
Why? Because he regretted it.
- [67:07]
Missy
Yeah, he, you know, just wanted. Wants to get back to the Catholic Church, and sometimes after you have kids and stuff like that, you know, you become more religious again. He went to Catholic school his whole life, and it was kind of one of those things where he thought, oh, I did my time.
- [67:21]
Nick Viall
Yeah, no, I totally relate. I was raised very Catholic, and I went to church every Sunday in my 30s, and I don't find myself to be all that religious, whatever. That's not about me. But having kids and, like, just a family, it's just like, that routine, I think, is something that I added value to my life. And anyways, Natalie and I have talked about, like, should we start going back? Should we go to church? You know, it's like, not because it's like we're being called by the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but, like, it's like, maybe we want to just.
- [67:50]
Missy
Maybe you are. Maybe you are.
- [67:51]
Nick Viall
Yeah. Who knows? And then obviously, me being raised Catholic, I'm kind of like, well, listen, if I'm going back, I'm going back here, you know, because this is the place. I know.
- [67:58]
Missy
And, yeah, that. And that is exactly how my husband feels. And, like, for the longest time, he was very uncomfortable even going to my church, and I didn't get it because, like, that's the church I grew up in, you know? Like, I was comfortable with it, but he was like, you know, he likes the structure of Catholic Church. He likes the rules. He likes all of that. And I. I started reading the Bible a couple of months ago, and as a Protestant, I just never really read it. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to sit down and read it. I don't know what exactly called me to do it, but I, you know, started reading it. And then this happens sometimes when you start reading the Bible, you look into the church fathers and how the church was founded, and I just found out so much stuff I didn't know. And I never really understood the Eucharist and how Catholics, you know, truly believe it is the body and blood of Christ.
- [68:42]
Nick Viall
Yeah.
- [68:42]
Missy
And, you know, in the Protestant church, it's kind of just a symbol. You know, we. We only do it once a month. And I. I don't know. I can't explain it to you. I've just been called to, like, receive the Eucharist, and I feel like that's just what I want to do. And I've spent a lot, a lot of time thinking about it, and I feel pretty convicted. So I'm just like. My biggest hurdle is I don't know how I'm going to tell my mom.
- [69:03]
Nick Viall
Well, I mean, I don't. Why. I guess it. Listen, like, you feel you don't need. Obviously, my opinion is irrelevant about what you feel inside. And it seems like, if nothing else, this is bringing you feeling a little more connected to your husband, and you guys are sharing a shared value. And for sure, for me, obviously, I think that in the context of you talking about your interpersonal relationships, right. This is like, do I invest in my relationship with my husband and my family or at the risk of upsetting my mom? Or what does it look like if I prioritize my mom's feelings over my husband's or even my own?
- [69:49]
Missy
Yeah, for me, obviously, it's, you know, like, my relationship with God, my relationship with my husband, my kids, then my parents, you know, but my mom is. I don't want to call her scary. She's intimidating. You had a caller a few months ago who was, like, talking about how their mom will ice them out and, like, not talk to them and kind of bully them. Like, my mom is very much like that. Okay. Well, she had very strong convictions.
- [70:15]
Nick Viall
Not very Christ, like, you know.
- [70:20]
Missy
Well, like, when I wanted to move in with my husband. We've been together since we were 18, and we wanted to move in together. After college, I got a Job, where he got a job, you know, whatever. It made sense to move in together. I knew I was going to be with him. She told me there's no point in having a wedding. She was going to help me move in with him. You know, she freaked out and I stayed calm because I knew it was the right thing and she got over it. But it was painful and it was scary, and I, I don't want to go through it again, but I'm going to. But I just, like, how should I say it?
- [70:50]
Nick Viall
Was it that scary at the time?
- [70:53]
Missy
I don't know. She's, I don't know.
- [70:54]
Nick Viall
You were also 18, like, yes, 19, you know.
- [70:58]
Missy
Well, I was, yeah. I was like 21 at that time. Yeah.
- [71:00]
Nick Viall
Okay.
- [71:01]
Sarah
So I know.
- [71:01]
Missy
And I'm like an adult. I have three children. I shouldn't be scared of her. But she's also in the process of moving next door to us. They're redoing the house next door to us, so they're about to, to move there. And she's going through, you know, the stress of moving and refinishing a house. So I feel like I can't talk to her about it right now.
- [71:17]
Nick Viall
Why do you need to talk to her about it? Why do you even need her blessing thing?
- [71:22]
Missy
Because we go to church with them, like, pretty regularly and.
- [71:26]
Nick Viall
To her church?
- [71:27]
Missy
Yeah, to her church. And in the summer especially, she, she takes my kids every Sunday. I'm a cottage baker and I do a farmer's market every Sunday. So she takes my kids to our, you know, her church every Sunday. So, like, it's just a part of our relationship too, you know, I, and I haven't been keeping it a total secret from her. Like, we, when we travel to see family, I've been telling her, like, like, we go to Mass, you know, she knows we've been going like, I have a crucifix, not a cross, hanging in the house. Now, she saw I have all these, you know, books about saints that she, like, made mention of and saw. So, like, it's not like I've been totally keeping alive.
- [72:04]
Nick Viall
I, I, I am, I will say I'm somewhat fascinated. I mean, I only come from the perspective of growing up Catholic. It's my, you know, I, you probably know more than me about Catholicism at this point, but there, there is a little bit of, like, I think as Catholics be like, you know, when it comes to Christianity, we're the first. And all these other Christian religions are stem from Catholicism. And, and it was just like a bunch of humans cherry Picking what they like or didn't like about this flawed. This flawed religion. And, like, in that is like. But I. I find it fascinating to hear what, like, this, man. It's still, like, so. There's so many similarities between all these Christian faiths. There's definitely nuance, but, like, it. Your mom seems really bent out of shape about some of the cultures or rituals that the Catholics have. Like, what? Who cares? Like, so you. So you're.
- [72:57]
Missy
I don't know. She always had. She always, like, spoke badly about Catholics as a child. You know, I always have these preconceived notions about, is she Irish?
- [73:06]
Nick Viall
You know, because it was the Irish or Protestant. They've been at war and shit.
- [73:10]
Audrey
My.
- [73:10]
Missy
We're so. My family's been here since the 1780s, so. On both sides. So we are, you know, Protestant, like, all the way back.
- [73:19]
Nick Viall
Okay. Yeah. I mean, listen, I think, you know, the. It's one. You have the power here. Your mom's moving next to you, not the other way around in a way. So she's, like, literally moving to your neighborhood. I imagine that their decision to move next to you guys is because as they enter into this kind of third act of their lives, they want to be close to their grandchildren and their children. Right?
- [73:46]
Missy
Yeah. That's 100.
- [73:47]
Nick Viall
That's something they're prioritizing.
- [73:49]
Missy
And it's. It's to help me, too, because, like, I need to be able to take them to doctor's appointments. Like, what if they can't drive? You know? Like, it's very, like, thoughtful. I'm looking forward to it. They can still help me with the kids right now, you know, but to be clear, when.
- [74:04]
Nick Viall
When. When your mom and dad made a decision to buy a house next to you, it wasn't because you called them up and said, I need your help. And they were like, all right, all right, fine. We'll make this huge sacrifice to help you just. Right. I just want to. Well, I think that's really important to remember because if you move forward with this, knowing your mom, she will probably make it seem like that in a way, she will pull on any levers of power that she has. And as. You sure you've heard me talk about this, it's a weird dynamic for that parent child relationship, but you are definitely more in the driver's seat than she is now. You just are.
- [74:48]
Missy
Yeah.
- [74:49]
Nick Viall
You know, you. It's.
- [74:50]
Missy
You're right.
- [74:51]
Nick Viall
Sometimes I forget that your family. I mean, I don't know if you have other siblings, and I'm sure If. If she has other grandchildren.
- [74:58]
Audrey
I do.
- [74:59]
Missy
He's not religious at all, and he lives far away. So.
- [75:03]
Nick Viall
Okay. So that gives you even more influence and power. And so she is really centering her life around your family. Not her family, your family. And I understand that she, you know, gave you life, and. And she is grandma, but it's your family, and it's your husband's family, and. And you guys get to ultimately dictate the rules and the. What's really important is, like, you know, you don't need to, like, convince her you don't need her blessing. You don't even need to try to change her mind or. Or make her feel like, ultimately this is, like, I would try to remove the conflict. I wouldn't enter any type of religious discussions about, like, why you are right or why your religion's now better than her. It's just like, mom, I'm just. What I've gotten from you, mom, is that you have a deep connection with your faith. And that's something, Mom, I always respected and valued, and I don't know why I have found this connection that I have found. But to the degree that, like, I've seen it have a positive impact in your life, I want that same positive impact. And I am just, like, following my heart and prioritizing my relationship with my husband, and this feels right to me, and I am just trusting that this feeling that I have is good and true. Obviously, I don't want it to have a conflict with you, but ultimately, mom, we believe in the same things. There's some nuance here. You might prioritize certain things, but we. We believe in the same thing here.
- [76:27]
Missy
Right. I'm, like, I'm still, you know, we're both following Christ, but I. She's just. She has a lot of, like, pride, like, I think is part of it. Like, I think she's honestly going to be embarrassed that, like, she's going to be embarrassed to tell her friends at her church that we're becoming Catholic. I honestly think that is going to be the hardest part of it for her. So I don't know, like, do I acknowledge that or do I just say. Just speak from the heart? I've been called to do this. I don't know. Like, do I acknowledge that? I know it's going to be, like, a little hard.
- [76:59]
Nick Viall
No, I feel like you're kind of
- [77:00]
Missy
saying, like, get that part out of it.
- [77:02]
Nick Viall
Yeah. I wouldn't assume, and I certainly wouldn't throw it in her face, you know.
- [77:06]
Missy
Right.
- [77:07]
Nick Viall
The big thing in this kind of dynamic is you can't play into her reaction. And if she is hurt by this and you suspect that she will be hurt. Hurt people. Hurt people. She will try to make you feel bad. And it's really important for you to just say, mom, I understand where this hurt's coming from. I certainly am not trying to hurt you, but I understand. And I am sorry you are feeling this way. But I hope that, if nothing else, that the fact that I am prioritizing my marriage, I am doing something that feels right. It is bringing me closer together with my husband. It makes our marriage stronger. I'm assuming these. That's how you would feel.
- [77:54]
Missy
Yeah.
- [77:55]
Nick Viall
And that regardless of how we got there, I would hope, if nothing else, that would just make you happy, that I'm doing that, because that is obviously something, mom, that I have always respected about you and how you've prioritized your relationship with dad. And I understand how we're getting there.
- [78:12]
Missy
I mean, she hasn't, but that's a whole other story.
- [78:16]
Nick Viall
Whatever. I. You know, fine. But I don't want to put words in your mouth.
- [78:19]
Missy
No, no, I know.
- [78:20]
Nick Viall
You have to find the words to make your mom feel good about and not. Not do the things that, you know, not. Not fight back and. And be okay with mom being a little disappointed. Her feelings are not your responsibility, certainly not this stage in your life.
- [78:38]
Missy
Yeah. You're right.
- [78:39]
Nick Viall
And she. She will work through it. And you again, you know, deep down, this is not like her. She's going to act like your soul's on the line, but, you know, that's not the case.
- [78:52]
Missy
That's basically what I did, you know, all those years ago when I told her I was moving anyway, like, she didn't have anything to hold over me at that point. I had a job, I had my own phone plan, and I had my car. So it was like I knew she couldn't threaten me with anything, you know, and that's. We're still in the same position now. You know, they don't, like, support us or whatever. She doesn't have anything to hold over me.
- [79:12]
Nick Viall
Yeah.
- [79:13]
Missy
In terms of, like, you can't do this, or, I'm taking this away. Do you know what I mean? Like.
- [79:17]
Nick Viall
Yeah, well, no, she's gonna do, like,
- [79:19]
Missy
she wants to see the kids. She wants to be a part of my life. I know. She's not gonna, like, cut me out.
- [79:23]
Nick Viall
Yeah.
- [79:23]
Missy
I just.
- [79:24]
Nick Viall
She's just gonna be. She's gonna be a headache.
- [79:27]
Missy
Yeah. For a little bit. And I don't want to tell her right now because she's going through the move. Like, March 28th is move in day. I'm like, I gotta wait till Easter.
- [79:35]
Nick Viall
Like, yeah, say it on Easter. Great. Perfect timing. Or like, you know. Yeah, listen, I. Not. I think this is going to be fine. And at the right time, I think you can remind Mom. You know, mom, last time I gave you some really disappointing news that you didn't approve of. It was when I moved in with
- [79:59]
Missy
him, and it turned out okay. Look at us now, 20 years later.
- [80:03]
Nick Viall
Yeah, I mean, you know, I wouldn't have what I have with him or, you know, your. Your grandchildren if I. If I listened to you.
- [80:11]
Missy
Right.
- [80:11]
Nick Viall
You know, and at the end of the day, Mom, I. You've been a great parent, and I have a lot to be grateful for, but I, you know, I will continue to make my choices that feel right for me. And I might make mistakes. This is something that feels right, and if nothing else, it does make me feel more connected and closer to my husband in marriage. And. And honestly, that. That's the only answer I really need.
- [80:35]
Missy
That's huge.
- [80:36]
Nick Viall
Yeah, that's huge. You know, and so I, like, I
- [80:39]
Missy
very, like, didn't want to, like, blame it on my husband either. Like, I didn't want to be like, you know, my husband. Like, this is what he wants. I'm doing what he wants. Like, I very much wanted to come from a place like, this is what I want, you know, So I don't want her to, like, hold anything against him. Not that she would, because she, like, respects and loves him.
- [80:55]
Nick Viall
Yeah, it's not. It's. Yeah, it's. That's the thing. He's not making you do it. It's. You're. You're. You're clearly open to it, and it clearly makes you feel like. Like you guys are sharing something. Your mom should be able to get there. And you're probably right. She's the deacon. But I don't know. I think your mom kind of needs to get over it. I think there's a. How many?
- [81:15]
Missy
I know. And I know, like, I know she will. I know she will, but I'm just
- [81:18]
Nick Viall
like, oh, God, you know, how many anticipations. I mean, it's. It's. It's more common that, you know, the. The religion you raise your kids up, up in. I. I don't know. My. I have 10 siblings. We grew up very Catholic. I don't know how many of my siblings still go to church. I think every Sunday. I think couple. We're all finding our own way. Our relationships with God is often like everything else, a journey. You know, sometimes we're more connected, sometimes we are disconnected, sometimes we find meaning in other things. I'm pretty sure if God does exist, he won't be splitting hairs with the man made religions that we chose to follow and the ones that allowed us to feel more connected to this higher power. You know, I'm. No, I don't know what the answer is, but I feel like if there is a higher power, it will be more about how we carried ourselves and how we treated other people and however we found the way to have a relationship with this higher power. I think what matters most is that we do have that relationship. Remind your mom with love and without anger.
- [82:29]
Missy
Yeah, I know. I just need to say totally calm. Like sometimes I have to just kind of stonewall her with information. I know she's not going to like, like I just say it and then nothing else. And then she can talk if she wants.
- [82:38]
Nick Viall
I definitely wouldn't preach to her. I would keep it real short. Mom, this is something we're doing. It also doesn't mean you can't go to church with your mom anymore. Like, it's like you can't. You convert to Catholic. You're not allowed into a Protestant church. Come on. You know, like, no, for sure.
- [82:54]
Missy
And like, she's probably gonna take the kids for me this summer, you know, they're probably gonna get double church, you know, sorry, guys, but they're at the age where they're gonna get, you know, their first communion. They'll start in the fall. So I think that's kind of why I'm like, all right, I want to start this now. I want them to get their first communion, you know, participate in the rights, etc. So, yeah, but then I would go to. It's called OCIA now. It's like, it's a long process. Like, it starts in the fall and it ends at Easter. So. So, yeah, like, it's going to be a big part of my life for that year, you know, like she. I have to tell her.
- [83:26]
Nick Viall
I imagine you have a lot of other things to share with her outside of that.
- [83:30]
Missy
Yeah, no, for sure.
- [83:31]
Nick Viall
And you know, your mom obviously is a Protestant deacon and. And now you're converting to Catholicism. And again, when it comes to your own kids, I would just remember that at the end of the day, what you want, what you want to give your kids is like a positive opportunity to have some kind of relationship with this higher power. But they're going to choose it for themselves and all you can do is.
- [83:57]
Missy
And I feel like that's what my husband's family did. Like, they really like his parents. His mom never pressured me. Like, I knew she would, like, love it if we were Catholic. Like, when I called her to tell her that we'd been going to mass, she literally started sobb. But like, she had never, ever pressured me or made me feel bad about it. Like, she was always just like, we love you and your journey's your journey, you know? Yeah, well, I feel like that's how I'll be.
- [84:22]
Nick Viall
I think this is going to be okay.
- [84:24]
Missy
And it has to be. I mean, I don't think she'll let it not be okay for more than maybe a week.
- [84:32]
Nick Viall
Then she is a lot. Listen, she's allowed to be disappointed the same way your mother in law cried out of happiness. Like, yeah, you know, like, yeah. These women are very connected to their face. It's a big deal to them. They want to share that connection with the people they love. It makes a lot of sense. So, like, just give your mom some empathy. And it's not. She's not against you. She's just a little disappointed. And she has to process it in her own way. The important thing for you to do is not make it worse, not try to be right. You don't have to convince her to love it. And if she overreacts.
- [85:05]
Missy
Yeah, no, I needed to.
- [85:07]
Nick Viall
Says some different. Says some, like, slightly hurtful things. You really, you can't give in. What would Jesus do, you know?
- [85:16]
Missy
I know. Yeah, you're right. I can do it.
- [85:19]
Nick Viall
All right.
- [85:19]
Missy
I know I can rip the band aid off.
- [85:23]
Nick Viall
Yeah, I mean, I would just. So anyways, I'm. I'm Catholic. I wouldn't just say that.
- [85:31]
Missy
Well, that's the thing. I don't want to like, sit her down and be like, I have something important to tell you because I hate it when people do that to me. Me, like, I want to just like mention it casually kind of, you know.
- [85:40]
Nick Viall
Yeah, I get it. You know, well, this. Don't let it marinate. But it is important to her, you know, it's important to her.
- [85:48]
Missy
Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna be like, flippant, but I also don't want to be like, scare her or something, you know, like. Yeah, I'm just gonna bring it up. Like, obviously we spend a lot of time together, so, like, I was scared, honestly, she was gonna come over while we're on the call because they just, you know, stop by all the Time.
- [86:06]
Nick Viall
Good news, bad news, Mom. Good news is I'm really, really leaning more into my Christian beliefs through. Through Catholicism. This is all good news. You know, it's like, again, like.
- [86:17]
Missy
Yeah.
- [86:19]
Nick Viall
However, marriages find ways to remain and stay connected, or I think, especially with ones with kids, it's really important. And. And it sounds like you and your husband are doing that, and you're doing it, and it sounds like a fairly positive way. At least it's positive for you, and that's what.
- [86:35]
Missy
Oh, for sure. For him, too. Yeah. It's like I've. I've, like, watched him open up in. In ways I never thought possible. Like, I'm just, like, kind of seeing another side of him is, like, honestly, really beautiful. So.
- [86:47]
Nick Viall
Yeah. So. And those are. Those are things you should share with your mom. It's just, like, how we got there is how we got there, Mom. The important thing is what. What it's doing for us as individuals, and I think that is a very important Godlike thing. And. And I still believe in the. I'm. We believe in the same. We're praying the same God, Mom. You know, we're just communicating with him differently, and we all. We have our. Yeah, that's it, Mom.
- [87:14]
Missy
I'll let you guys know how it goes.
- [87:16]
Nick Viall
All right. Definitely keep us posted.
- [87:18]
Missy
And congrats on the twin pregnancy. I have twins as well.
- [87:21]
Nick Viall
Oh, really? Any advice?
- [87:23]
Missy
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's hard. They were my first, so I had twins before I had a singleton. So for us, we didn't know any better. You know, having one kid is hard, you know, anyway, so having two is obviously really, really hard. But since it was our first, we were like. Well, we didn't know what to expect. It's a lot. It's a lot. But get them on the same schedule if you can. Same feeding schedule, same sleeping schedule, and. Yeah, you'll be okay. The first year is really hard, but you'll get through it okay.
- [87:52]
Nick Viall
All right, well, thanks for the advice.
- [87:54]
Missy
Yeah. Blessing. Like, I mean, I always wanted twins. We play the game of life. I would cry if I didn't get twins in the game of life.
- [88:01]
Nick Viall
And so I got them boy, girl, girl, girl, boy.
- [88:05]
Missy
We have a boy and a girl. Okay. You guys have two. Are gonna have two girls, right?
- [88:09]
Nick Viall
Yeah, two girls, so all girls.
- [88:13]
Missy
All girls. Yeah. We have. We have another one that is a girl also. So we have two girls and a boy, so.
- [88:19]
Nick Viall
All right, well, good luck. Keep us posted. I appreciate it.
- [88:23]
Missy
Thank you.
- [88:23]
Audrey
All right.
- [88:24]
Missy
Right.
- [88:24]
Sarah
All right, I will. Thanks so much.
- [88:25]
Nick Viall
Okay. Bye bye. Awkward time to ask this, but. Hey, did you download the trail map?
- [88:43]
Audrey
Yeah. No, I don't need to.
- [88:45]
Nick Viall
I. I don't understand.
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Audrey
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Sarah
Whoa.
- [88:54]
Nick Viall
I don't trust my carrier that much.
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Audrey
We'll just use your phone as a flashlight.
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Nick Viall
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