E1117 Ask Nick w/ Mark L. Walberg - He Friendzoned Me After 20 Years

Summary

The Viall Files E1116: “Ask Nick” with Mark L. Walberg – He Friendzoned Me After 20 Years

Release Date: April 27, 2026
Host: Nick Viall
Special Guest: Mark L. Walberg (Temptation Island)
Theme: Dating dilemmas and relationship advice, focusing on messy boundaries, commitment conflicts, and the power of honest communication.

---

Episode Overview

Nick Viall welcomes reality TV host and relationship mediator Mark L. Walberg for an "Ask Nick" advice fest, featuring three nuanced callers struggling with messy relationship boundaries and unclear futures. Together, they blend empathy, directness, and years of experience, helping listeners peer through relationship ambiguities and confront their own needs. The episode is packed with real talk about vulnerability, situational clarity, and learning to advocate for your emotional well-being—no matter how awkward, difficult, or overdue the conversation may be.

---

Key Discussion Points & Memorable Moments

[02:46] – Caller 1: "He Friendzoned Me After 20 Years" (Danny, 40)

Background

• Danny hooked up with her longtime male friend from high school after two decades of very close, periodically distant friendship.
• After they reconnected and had sex several times, his behavior shifted: he intermittently blocks her, then returns with effusive praise, but offers no real clarity or commitment.

Discussion Highlights

• Mutual Attraction & Avoidant Patterns:
  Danny acknowledges long-standing chemistry and admits both parties likely always had feelings (“I think on both sides... friends, family like there's something there”—07:22).
• Communication Breakdown:
  He ghosts and blocks her for stretches, then resumes contact as if nothing happened. Danny admits she lashes out when frustrated by the silent treatment (“...it got a little insulting... just to make him hurt, because it hurt”—12:13).
• Expert Advice from Mark:
  Mark names the dynamic as “anxious-avoidant attachment,” explaining the partner’s avoidant coping (blocking, disappearing) and Danny’s anxious response (“People pleasing that seems like it's loving is actually really not”—10:57).
• Path to Clarity:
  • Mark encourages Danny to approach the next conversation with vulnerability and ownership—start with owning hurtful words, then calmly ask for clarity (“Where things get healed is in vulnerability, but somebody's got to go first”—12:25).
  • Nick stresses the importance of self-honesty: “I don't think you're as confused about your feelings for him as you let on and maybe even what you tell yourself”—14:20.
  • Both agree that hooking up should pause until mutual expectations and boundaries are clear.

Notable Quotes

• Mark: “You're not in the friend zone. You're out of the friend zone. You're in the weird zone.” [16:12]
• Mark: “You can’t hook up again until you clear up this communication… I'm telling you as your dad, you're not allowed to do that again until you have this conversation.” [36:06]
• Nick: “Think about the energy you’ve invested... This is taking a lot out of you.” [72:25]

Key Timestamps

• [05:16] – Caller explains “block mode” after sex
• [10:18] – Mark’s attachment theory explanation
• [12:25] – Vulnerability and the power of “going first”
• [16:12] – “You’re in the weird zone”
• [36:06] – “Dad order” to stop hooking up until a real talk

---

[40:52] – Caller 2: "Why is my engaged friend pursuing me?" (Carly, 32)

Background

• Carly and a male friend have had an on-and-off flirtation and sexual relationship for 8 years—he is now engaged (possibly due to a pregnancy scare), but continues to pursue Carly with flirtatious texts.

Discussion Highlights

• The Emotional 'Backup' Dynamic:
  Nick gently confronts Carly about the real emotional stakes, suggesting she’s been this man's “backup plan” (“You guys have made each other each other’s security blanket, backup plan, whatever”—57:12).
• Boundaries and Self-Worth:
  Mark hammers home the need for agency. Carly must advocate for herself: “You’re not the victim… you get to be the honest, clear one, even in the face of someone not being honest and clear” [49:37].
• Patterns and Self-Reflection:
  Mark draws a through-line to Carly’s past—she’s repeatedly allowed “just okay” relationships due to a belief she’s not worthy of full honesty or priority (“You keep getting lied to or things are being withheld from you because you're allowing that framework of a relationship to be in your life”—64:32).
• Concrete Advice:
  The hosts push Carly to have one honest, boundary-setting conversation, declining further contact unless he is truly available. Anything less is “noise” that’s blocking her own happiness.

Notable Quotes

• Mark: “When you decide that ‘okay’ is not what you want for you, then you kinda have to do the work of looking in the mirror and saying... I’m the prize.” [67:05]
• Nick: “Think about the energy you’ve invested... This is taking a lot out of you and it makes a lot of sense why it is, because again, this is a guy who sometimes is saying whatever you want, you tell me I’ll do it. And that feels very romantic and good.” [72:25]

Key Timestamps

• [43:45] – The “sticky situation” and discovering the engagement
• [49:37] – Mark’s “agency” speech
• [57:12] – Being each other’s backup plan
• [67:05] – Mark’s “I’m the prize” monologue for self-worth

---

[83:43] – Caller 3: "We've been dating 10 years and he's still not sure he wants to marry me" (Kendall, 30)

Background

• Kendall has a decade-long, on-off relationship. They recently moved in together, but her boyfriend (28) remains noncommittal about marriage and kids, despite her clarity about wanting both.

Discussion Highlights

• Timeline Pressure vs. Emotional Commitment:
  Nick and Mark urge Kendall to reframe: her “10-year” narrative is misleading—functionally, it’s a 2.5-year solid relationship after much breakage.
• Marriage as Symbol vs. Reality:
  Mark (and Nick) challenge Kendall to clarify what marriage actually means to her, separating the societal symbol from emotional reality:
  “Marriage does not guarantee forever. You want him to want you forever—that doesn’t come from a ring.” [91:44]
• The “Illusion of Choice” and Avoidance:
  Nick and Mark both point out the boyfriend is passively daring her to make the hard decision—classic avoidance:
  "That's how cowards break up. Cowards act out in a way that you then have to break up with them and go, I don't know why she left." [115:02]
• Self-Advocacy:
  After numerous breakups, Kendall’s stuck in a dynamic where he calls the shots. Mark prescribes “loving detachment” and framing the relationship around her needs: “Define what you want and see if he’ll show up for it. He can eat or not. You might be opening a casting call.” [119:53]
• Children as Non-Negotiable:
  Mark and Nick stress: unlike the marriage timeline, the child timeline is very real—Kendall must clearly communicate this need.

Notable Quotes

• Mark: “He’s in that gap between seasoned, fully developed man and fraternity boy.” [113:56]
• Nick: “You seem like you’re managing this relationship by yourself on his terms.” [116:19]
• Mark: “When the person we're in relationship with stands on their own two feet... that little timeline thing may not be serving you as much as you think it is, because that sometimes forces women to marry someone that’s a C+ to meet the timeline.” [119:53]

Key Timestamps

• [86:54] – Recap of relationship turbulence, current status
• [92:13] – Mark probes actual reasons marriage matters
• [101:04] – “Are you each other’s person?”
• [113:56] – “Fraternity boy”/late-bloomer analysis
• [115:02] – “Coward”/passive breakups and “illusion of choice”
• [121:18] – The “casting call” and reframing strategy

---

Structural Advice Themes

• Vulnerability is King:
  Open first, apologize for emotional outbursts, and express your actual needs—modeling healthy risk invites better communication and clarity.
• Self-Honesty and Boundaries:
  Repeatedly, Nick and Mark urge listeners to be honest with themselves first—don’t downplay what you want for fear of losing someone. Know your limits and hold to them.
• Energy Investment and Opportunity Cost:
  The energy spent in ambiguous relationships is energy lost to personal growth and new, healthier opportunities.
• Ownership and Agency:
  None of the callers are powerless; the power begins the moment you state your truth—even if it results in loss.

---

Notable Quotes (by Timestamp & Speaker)

• Mark: “You’re not in the friend zone. You’re out of the friend zone. You’re in the weird zone.” [16:12]
• Nick: “Think about the energy you’ve invested... It’s taking a lot out of you.” [72:25]
• Mark: “When you decide that ‘okay’ is not what you want for you, then you kinda have to do the work of looking in the mirror and saying... I’m the prize.” [67:05]
• Nick: “You seem like you’re managing this relationship by yourself, on his terms.” [116:19]
• Mark: “When the person we're in relationship with stands on their own two feet… that little timeline thing may not be serving you as much as you think it is, because that sometimes forces women to marry someone that’s a C+ to meet the timeline.” [119:53]

---

Conclusion

This episode of The Viall Files is a crash course in contemporary love and emotional self-defense. Nick and Mark help listeners see that no matter how tangled a history, empowered communication—honest, kind, and boundary-filled—can untie a relationship’s knots or give you the clarity to walk away. Their advice underlines that self-worth is not negotiable and that the answers we need often come when we dare to ask bravely and listen to ourselves just as carefully as our partners.

Action for Listeners:
Before making any moves in your relationships, check in with your own truth. If you’re afraid to “rock the boat” because you might lose someone, ask yourself: “Am I happy on this boat?” If not, chart your course—communication and clarity are the first steps to smoother sailing.

---

For further updates or to submit your dilemma:
Email: [e-mail]

---

Next episode: Reality Recap - Catch up with Nick and the Household for the latest in Reality TV!

Transcript

[A]

It's popping at Tropical Smoothie Cafe with new Tropi Boba Bowls Acai bowls topped with a popping Boba. You might think food that's better for you has to be boring and bland and beige, but guess what? You're wrong. Welcome to a colorful, exciting oasis called Tropical Smoothie Cafe. A place where you can get your fill of antioxidants and protein and vitamin packed kale. But it's purple and drizzled with Nutella and tastes like sunshine. Eat some good it's popping at Tropical Smoothie Cafe with new Tropi Boba Bowls Acai Bowls topped with Popping Boba. These two flavors are a blast in a bow with either mango or strawberry flavored Popping Boba and freeze dried Dragon Fruit or dark Choco Chunks. Available for a limited time only, these limited time trappy Boba bowls are as fun as they are good. They're full of flavor, color, texture and surprising ingredients. Juicy Popping Boba freeze dried Dragon fruit, fresh strawberries and pineapple and so delicious dairy free Cocoa Whip. The perfect example of what it means to eat some good the Bava's is

[B]

brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Hey, you chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Don't forget Vile Files. Plus now offers ad free episodes for all Vile Files episodes including Ask Nick Reality Recap and Going Deeper. Plus, if you love Ask Nick, you will absolutely love our Ask Nick updates where you get updates of your favorite calls, our Deep dive on all your favorite reality recap TV shows, and our Pop Culture Roundup where we talk about all your favorite pop culture topics that we didn't get to in this week's episode. Plus Deep Dives on our Going Deeper guest, and so much more. All you have to do is go to Vile Files plus and you will be lucky you did.

[C]

You're crazy.

[B]

What's going on everybody? Welcome to a very special episode of Ask Nick. It's Ask Mark L. Wahlberg. You know him from Temptation island and I know many of you are very big fans of Mark and he is, as you know, if you watch the show, very excellent at giving some perspective and relationship advice. And I asked him if he wanted to come on and help us with some calls and so here he is.

[C]

I was honored that you called. I think you do a great job and I'M down to give my perspective and see if we can't help some people.

[B]

Well, I know you guys want to get right to the call, so let's just do that. But before we do, if you have any questions yourself that you want to get answered, email us at asknick@theviolet files.com and maybe we'll get a chance to help you out as well. With that being said, let's get to our first caller. How's it going?

[D]

Hey, Nick. My name is Danny. I'm 40 years old. I recently hooked up with my longtime friend, and I want to know if I'm still in the friend zone.

[B]

Okay, well, to start things off, can you just kind of tell us about this Fred and this relationship?

[D]

Sure, sure. So we met in our senior year of high school. He actually moved from out of town, out of state, into my hometown. I met him through my best friend at the time, female friend. And they met through, you know, back at that time, there was AOL chat rooms. So they were talking and they met up. She asked me to meet him, and I thought nothing of it. And once I saw him, obviously teenage butterflies. Cute. But we always hung out in group settings. We were never really alone. You know, obviously chemistry, but just never dated. Never thought about that. Always seemed platonic. Then towards the end of senior year, there was a moment where he came over to my house and he wanted to hook up, but then he actually stopped it. Like, before getting naked, I guess you could call it. And I was kind of like, wait, what happened there? Like, what was. What's going on? But honestly, then time just passed. You know, we graduated high school. We kind of went different ways. I moved out of state. He went into the military. We would find our way back to each other, like, meeting sporadically throughout time. We would talk all the time. Things were always pretty platonic. Just kind of keeping each other up to date with what's going on in our lives. We've gone through life, you know, together. He got married young, had children. Young got divorced. You know, I got married, separated, had a child. It's never had a moment where we could be together. And even though we've seen each other and talked a lot, there could be times where we go, you know, three months, six months without talking, and then we talk again, but never thought about dating. And then he now lives back in our hometown, and I have to go there a lot for work. So at the end of last year, we thought, oh, hey, you know, we're in town at the same time. Let's Hang out and we just, you know, a couple of drinks and it just happened.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

So since then, it's happened multiple times.

[B]

Oh, we've hooked up.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

It's not just a one off.

[D]

Oh, yeah. No, no, no.

[B]

She's like, oh, yeah. He wanted more, for sure. Okay.

[D]

Um, yeah, yeah, that's a thumbs up for me. So. But since then, it has changed dramatically where it'll go. It used to be fine with, like, the silence because we have our own lives. Like, we can't. We can't be talking every day. Right. We're not dating. But he'll literally go into, like, block mode where I can't reach him.

[B]

He blocks, and I have to just kind of wait.

[D]

Yes. Isn't that the crazy. That's crazy.

[B]

That's suspicious.

[D]

That's childish.

[B]

Have you asked him?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And he's just like, sometimes I just need, you know, my space to clear my head. Like, you know, I just need time.

[B]

Are you blowing him up? Like, when you're not blocked? Are you. Are you sending him? Eight unresponse? Like, are you sending him? Like, are you? Yeah. Are you blowing him up?

[D]

No, I won't know. Like, I won't know till he comes back. And then when I come back, I don't know how long I'm on, and it's just normal, casual, regular conversations. And then if it'll go too long and I'm, like, kind of wondering what's happening, I'll email and I'll wait.

[B]

You email?

[E]

That probably sounds weird.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, we know each other's email. I mean, I've known him forever, but

[B]

why don't you, like, call him or text him?

[D]

Well, because it's blocked. And then it'll just come back on, like, randomly. How dumb is that? It feels childish.

[B]

It feels suspicious.

[D]

Okay, so the reason why I'm asking my son in the friend zone is because, like, when he does come back, he says very, as you say, suspicious things like, I love you, you're my bestie, I praise you. Like, you're perfect. Like, it just doesn't. It's weird to say those things and then be contradicted with. Okay, but now I'm not gonna talk to you right now.

[B]

You said we never really thought about dating. You know, it's like you. After you went through the whole, like, his life, you had. He. He had. He built a life. You built a life.

[C]

Wait, is that.

[B]

Is that true that you. You never thought about dating or you never thought it was possible that you two would.

[D]

It's Possible.

[B]

Okay.

[F]

Right.

[B]

Because it always kind of seemed like, even like the fact that you're telling this very detailed story from high school, it sounds like you kind of always maybe had a little thing for him.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And I think on both sides, because we would, we'd be told from friends, family, like there's something there, but you just, you know, life, if it doesn't go in the same timeline, like you can't be together.

[B]

And after you first hooked up, what were you hoping to get out of it? Like, were you wondering what could this be? Or were you thinking, it's casual first

[D]

time, casual fifth time, what the hell's happening?

[B]

You know, and that's what you thought or what you wanted? Like if after you hooked up the first time, and if he was like, if we're just role play, and he was like, you know, can I be honest? I've. I think I've always cared about you and I'm really happy this finally happened. And do you want to go on a date next week? Would you have been like, yo, let's just keep it as friends or.

[D]

Oh, no, I probably, yeah, I would have been open to that. Just because is it finally the time, like to try it? But it's hard to know that because those questions are not being asked.

[B]

What do you think, Mark? What do you got?

[C]

You comfortable with me jumping in and giving you my take?

[D]

Oh, yeah. Go for it. Go for it.

[C]

So I think that you are into him. I think that you've seen him since your friendship. I think that the timing has always been wrong for the two of you, and now it kind of locked up and you guys kind of did the thing that has been on both of your minds. And as is typical, I hate to be gender specific, but as typical, he's freaking out and maybe has some other agenda he's not sharing. So from an Odyssey standpoint on your side of this thing, I think that love relationships built on long time friendships are really, really healthy. And so this is something that's been on your mind and something that you had been cool with not happening, but would have loved for it to happen. And now it has happened. And so there's a communication gap not happening here, where if you were to stand in your strength and your worth, you might say to him, what's with the blocking? I've known you 30 years, what's up? Right. Yeah. So that communication might clear that up where you can say to him, look, if this was a casual hookup thing and it's working for us, let's continue, that's your choice. And if it's some other feelings are showing up for you that you're not communicating, why don't you share with your friend what's up? And if there's somebody else in the picture, why don't you share with your friend of 20 years what's up? And I will understand, but there's a gap of communication on his side and your responsibility, and that is for not having asked, in other words, by you, kind of just waiting until he unblocks you and then hooking up again and stuff. You're also complicit to this, what is not particularly a healthy relationship. So you get to, I'm inviting you, you get to be a stand for making this healthy by not being dramatic or judging, but kind of just having a communication, yo, dude, I know you like forever, I love you in all kind of applications of that. What are we doing? And just communicate. And I can be cool with it

[D]

now because he said I love you and I've never said it back. I didn't initiate it.

[C]

Well, the other thing is be careful of that because it is pretty, pretty telling when they start saying I praise you, I love you and all this stuff and then block you that it's a people pleasing move. It's a little bit of a fear move, a little narcissistic move to make sure you're getting what you want right now. You're getting what you want and putting you on ice and making sure you're not going to be dramatic, but not being completely honest with you.

[D]

Yeah. Because I do talk to my therapist. They say it's like anxious, avoidant touch.

[C]

That's exactly what it is.

[D]

I have the anxiety, he has the avoidant. How do you make those two agree?

[C]

Yeah, well, I get it because I'm an avoidant. So that people pleasing thing, which seems really. We talked about this before too. That people pleasing thing that seems like it's loving is actually kind of really not. So my invitation to you is that you get to reframe the whole relationship and you get to say, hey, you know, I'm not coming at you. I'm not demanding anything from you. I just want to let you know I'm a safe place to tell me exactly where you're actually at. In other words, you, you can say, this is suspicious behavior, my friend. Never was that with me. And now that we've had sex, now suddenly you're doing weird shit. I'm still your friend, so let's just talk it out. You're I'm a safe place for you. I always have been, and I will be. You know, don't let the sex thing mess us up. And then you'll at least know where it's at, and you can make a choice of if that sex thing is serving you or if it's not.

[D]

Yeah. Because I will say, when it does come back, obviously, you're just kind of. You're upset because it just doesn't ever happen. So my response will come off a little aggressive, as though, like, wtf, man? Like, as it should happening. And. And it got a little. This last time got a little insulting to him. Like, I said things that were insulting. Like.

[B]

Like what?

[D]

You're. Like, you're not attractive, you're not worthy. Like, just to make him hurt. Because it hurt. Because it hurt. Right. So. And now I'm just kind of wondering when he comes back, like, how do you override what you said? Because, you know, you say it out of hurt, not.

[C]

This is going to actually work for you, not against you. Okay, watch this. This is something I kind of try to coach to sometimes, is that where things get healed is invulnerability. But somebody's got to go first. So the way that might look as a model is that in your conversation with him, you can start by making an amends for being less than authentic when you were kind of attacking him, you know, and say, I need to let you know, as my friend, that I said these things out of feelings, out of defense. It's not how I actually feel about you. I want to apologize to you for that. And that might make an opening for him to then say, but. Then say, but this is coming from not. When I get blocked and I don't hear from you, it makes me feel a certain way. I lashed out. I'm taking responsibility for that. But I want to know what's going on with you, because I'm your friend, and I don't want to throw away a friendship because we're not communicating the part that we're uncomfortable communicating. Right. So it gives you an opportunity to be the first one to go and become clean. Does that make sense?

[B]

I got a question for you. I think everything Mark said is great, and you're right. If you really want to know, it's a lane where you can. When you're vulnerable, it gives the other person permission to be like, oh, well, if we're doing this, then sure, somebody's

[C]

got to go first. That's all I'm saying. And it's rarely the dude it's definitely never the dude.

[B]

But I do want to back up a little bit because if the theme is, let's just be more honest and communicate about what this really is and where we're really at, I. Tell me if I'm wrong, because maybe I am. It seems like you care about him in a way that maybe hooking up with him has made you realize how much you care and your general interest in this possibility being more than a friendship. Is there accuracy in that?

[D]

Yeah, And I want to make sure that I'm not creating, like, this fantasy of him in my head and not. And being blind to the actual reality of what's happening.

[B]

Well, that's a great point because you're saying when you call in, like, yo, this is just my friend and I've only been friends, and we never, ever thought about this, and then we hooked up, and, like, I don't even. I'm. I'm kind of confused. And I don't think you're as confused about your feelings for him as you let on and maybe even what you tell yourself. So I don't think you're being as honest as you could be about how you've. You're not being vulnerable with yourself about how you really feel or what you want from this. And I think you're kind of playing, you know, games with yourself, and then that makes it tougher to be honest and communicate with him. Because this kind of situation, hookup, relationship, it's pretty common, right. You're just like, you don't want to, like, give too much because, like, if we're just friends, I don't want to. I don't want to rock that boat, you know, and you almost kind of play it cool, almost too cool.

[C]

And even with the weird behavior on his part, makes you be even more careful about how you respond. Because it's. Now it's hinky.

[B]

Yeah. And now, because now you're doing this thing where it's just like, hey, you're telling yourself, we're just friends, so I'm going to play it cool. But, like, you are affected by his behavior and you're trying to, like, you're. You're doing these, like, mental gymnastics of, like, how do I remain cool but still get. Get the questions I want answered? And I think that's what you're having a hard time with. So to Mark's point, I think you just kind of have to be a little bit more honest a. With yourself about how you feel. You've hooked up with this guy multiple Times now you are in a position to have some kind of expectation of him. And now granted, as we all know, like, you're setting the boundary with yourself and you can communicate that with boundary with him, and he can choose to respect it or not respect it, and then you will have to, like, move accordingly based off of his decision. But you are, you know, like, you have the right to say whatever you want. You're not the crazy person. You're not like, professing your love because of some moment from high school. You're.

[C]

You're with a caveat, Nick. Nick is exactly right. But I want to speak to. In. In terms of, of what he said. Also, I want to speak to the way you didn't act, but reacted to him when you said, you're ugly, I don't like you. And whatever, whatever you said, right, that stuff may not be true for you. That's a reaction out of your hurt. Right? His blocking you and not being forthright or forthcoming, I'm going to say, hurt you a little bit. Right? And so you said things that maybe were a defense mechanism, which you have every right to do. So what Nick is saying is dead accurate. You have the right to say and do whatever you want to do. But also you get to model the healthy communication of a relationship because that will be mirrored back to you. And unfortunately, in relationships, oftentimes you're going to end up being the mom to a child in a relationship. For a guy who's scrambling right now going, oh, God, I have this great friendship. It was all cool. Now we. Now we had sex several times. That was great. But now I don't know how to be. And so it's much easier outside looking in then it actually feels to you because what's happening is he's managing you and you're managing him, and neither one of you are being like you were when you were friends. So actually, you're not in the friend zone. You're out of the friend zone. You're in the weird zone. So someone's got to reset it by saying, hey, let's take what we've done, this new chapter, and let's, let's put a pin in that for a second. Let me remind you that I have loved you as a friend for years and hope to love you as a friend for years beyond this. So what's up? What's up? And by the way, I'm sorry I lashed out at you. I was hurt. Right. But what's up? It feels weird that you blocked me. Am I. If I'm texting you too much. Tell me and I won't. If this is a casual thing, tell me and I'll decide if that's something I want to continue or if I just want to go back to the way our friendship was, or are you having feelings that are uncomfortable or is there somebody else in the picture? Whatever it is you're not saying or feeling or sharing, I can handle because I'm your friend, and that should open it up a little bit.

[D]

Do I have this conversation in person?

[B]

If you can help it, yeah.

[C]

Well, that's always the easiest one because there's so much we say without saying it. But it doesn't matter. Text is the worst.

[D]

Oh, no, I don't want to have it by text. Absolutely not.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I would say FaceTime's ideal, but if there's urgency on your end to, like, have this conversation so you don't have to kind of stew in the unknown, a FaceTime is a pretty good alternative.

[C]

It also, on your next time that he's in a place where he's. I don't want to say he wants to hook up, but he's in a place where he's communicating. And it's like you're in that place where we're going to get together in some way, shape, or form. When you get together before you have sex. Right. Is when you might say, hey, can we slow down a sec? I don't like where we're going. I love the sex. I love you, and I hear you say you love me. I don't know what that means. I'll take it in a friend zone way. But before we kind of continue this way, can we clean up this weird stuff? Because you've never been weird with me before, and I've never been weird with you before. Can we just get back to being who we are to one another and then figure out the rest? You tell me what you want, I'll tell you what I want. If they're not the same thing, we'll figure out what we both can agree on. Right. So it's much easier than it seems. But we rarely pick that easy route because it's a little confrontational, a little scary. We have to kind of open up, you know, our vulnerability, and we might get hurt a little bit, but it's much easier to do it that way.

[D]

Yeah. Because you just. I mean, I just spin the conversation over and over and over and over in my head. Like, what happened? What'd I do? What's.

[C]

What's going on stop a second. What did I do? Is what you just said, right? But what you didn't consider is you may not have done anything. He's got his own drama of how it feels to him that maybe he's got fear of. Like, I've screwed up something that was important to me or I hope she doesn't think I want more. Whatever. I don't know what the story is, but it's not something you did, right? It's something not communicating. We don't know what it is until it's asked and communicated like humans who love one another communicate. Right? But it would take you knowing your worth enough to say, my feelings matter. I don't have to react, but I can act so I don't have to react to get him to do something. That's why we lash out. We don't lash out because those feelings of what we're saying about you are ugly or this, whatever. We don't say that because we feel that way. We say that so that they will react in a way that gives us information. We're trying to elicit a response that tells us something because we don't understand. And yes, when I say that out loud, you can see that. That insanity. Because the sane way is to say, can I ask you a question? What's going on with you? Right? And make a safe place for him to not feel judged or backed into a corner, which he doesn't deserve, and just listen. But it's for you, not for him.

[D]

You just gotta. Right? You just gotta. I gotta remember, like, calm down and just listen.

[B]

Did you say he lives in your neighborhood now?

[D]

No, no, no. We live in different states.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

He just lives back in the hometown where we were.

[B]

What is his, like, from what? You know, what does his life look like right now?

[D]

Oh, well, travels a lot for work, the same thing. You know what I mean? We're just both travel, so usually gone weeks at a time. You know what I mean?

[B]

Mark has mentioned, like, you know, when you're asking, like, hey, let's just communicate, you tell me what this is he's mentioning. Like, is there someone else, I guess, do you think. Well, one, if he. If you found out there was something else, how would you feel about that? And two, do you. I mean, it's like, it's really like from the little bit of information you shared, it just. It doesn't make sense. Why? He doesn't need to block you, I don't think. It just makes no sense. If he needs to process or think about how he feels about you. Him blocking you doesn't help that.

[C]

So, yeah, that's why the. Your question was pretty accurate. Is he blocking you or is he just ghosting you? Ghosting you is avoidant. Blocking you is making a choice to make sure you don't communicate.

[B]

It's all. Yeah. It also stops you from reaching out at a time that might be inconvenient for him to have you reach out.

[C]

Oh, in other words, your phone blows up and maybe somebody's in the room that he doesn't want to see. That. Yeah, but. But rather than planting those possibilities that can drive you crazy at night, in the middle of the night, because all of them could be true or not. The answer is to ask the question. Right. Right. Nick?

[B]

Yes. I just think. I think you're honest with yourself about the possib. Like, I don't want to plan a seed that drives you crazy. I think it's just a dangerous game for us to play. To sell yourself on an idea about how you feel about something. And if you really don't care, if that's his answer, then communicate that. But it's okay for you to care?

[C]

Well, yeah. By the way, my route could hurt, but it's less pain than not knowing. My route opened you up to him saying something that could crush you, but it's less pain than you sitting at home going, what's going on? And I have lost my friend, or how do I be?

[D]

Well, so to answer your question, the first thing would be if there is someone that's completely possible because he is dating. He's allowed to date. Right.

[C]

You're not exclusive.

[D]

We're not in a relationship. We can both date. I just don't know if they're. I would have. I think I would have known if there was something serious, though, because it's not like we haven't talked about that before. We've gone through our journeys of different relationships and have always felt comfortable talking about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

By the way, that sentence you just said, if you were to say that to him, I mean, that was very clear. That was really. You know, we've always talked about it. I can. I can listen to you. I know we're not exclusive. You don't have to disclose what you hope this relationship is. You don't have to put all your cars on the table. But what you can do is from a friend to another friend is, go, man, you're giving me mixed messages. And if that's what's going to happen, I don't think I want to Hook up. Right. This is a problem. Right, Right. That's the boundary thing Nick is talking about. You need to protect yourself from that. Is that my advice to you is I don't think it's okay to hook up right now until this gets discussed a little bit.

[D]

Agree.

[C]

By the way, there's nothing wrong with having a casual hookup relationship that you guys, you know, occasionally find each other in the same place and, you know, have fun together. It's not okay if it's not communicated that way.

[D]

Exactly, Exactly. It needs, like, there needs to be, hey, this is not going to turn into a relationship. Remaining friends. I mean, again, like I said, I'm 40. I don't understand this whole situationship lingo. To me, it's just friends with benefits. Right. So making that clear that way, I don't guess, like, where's this going?

[B]

But it's important to remember that you have a choice in this, even without his answer, which is kind of. My point is I think you just. I want you to really just explore whatever the answer is, is how you. What you want from this and how you really feel about it. If it is a casual hookup where you're like, hey, listen, he's good at sex, but I don't really think I want much more. I do want to maintain the friendship. I don't want it to change things. But ultimately, the only thing that's really different is the hookup. Then pop off and, like, do that. If this is, hey, I hooked up with him, we're hooking up multiple times, and now I'm starting to build this kind of emotional connection with this man who I've also been friends with for many years. And if he was open to it, I would also be open to, like, seeing where this goes. That's also totally okay. And you have the right to feel that way. But you should definitely figure that out so that you can just be upfront about that. I don't you think you should pretend to be okay with something you're not okay with?

[C]

Beautiful point.

[B]

Because I think that gets confusing to everyone. And I think he will read that right. Because to Mark's point, the way you communicate that if you come across in control of how you feel about the situation, the more likely he'll be honest with whatever is going on. If he feels like you're pretending to be okay with something you're not okay

[C]

with that you're fishing for information, but you have a hidden agenda.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

He'll feel trapped and he'll block you.

[B]

And a lot probably potentially, maybe.

[C]

So to Nick's point, you need to get clear on how you feel so that when you communicate, you don't have to feel like you're hiding anything. You don't have to share everything, but you can be clear with yourself about how you feel. I'm kind of clear how you feel already that, I don't know that you want to hear, but it's all good. I think you really care about this guy. I think this has been a friendship that feels safe and wonderful, and then going to the next level has felt good physically and emotionally. And if it were to grow to something else, I think that's probably something you'd be down for. And that's completely valid and wonderful. He may feel the same way and just be scared of it, or he may realize he may be having fear that he's ruined a friendship. I don't know. And it. The theater of the mind is not going to be your friend on this. So that's why I'm saying, even if it brings you a crushing blow of, oh, shit, it's not what I thought. Ugh, that hurts. That's better than what you're doing to yourself right now. You know, I think I'm curious.

[B]

What was the thing that he said to you that triggered you, that caused you to lash out?

[C]

That's a good question.

[D]

He sent a message. I'm out of ghost mode if you want to talk. And then I didn't say anything, just waited. And then I was like, are we gonna talk? And it was just kind of quiet. And then I just felt like I was in that whiplash of emotion of like, okay, not blocked again, like, not thinking he would read it. And I'm just. I just went off, you know? And now that'll answer your second question is, how do I know I'm blocked? So we usually do communicate on the phone versus, you know, texting seems to be more shorthand, if that's the best way to say it. We're very used to talking on the phone, so. I know, because if I call, goes one ring, straight to voicemail, which is, you're blocked. It's not someone.

[C]

Or he's screening either way.

[D]

Yeah. Or whatever. It doesn't matter. All that. Yeah, it doesn't matter. All I know is, hey, that's just rude. And I don't get why that happens and why you keep going in and out of this need to be alone. And I know it's not just towards me, like, it's to the other parts of the world. And I know that because I'm close with his family. Right?

[F]

So.

[B]

So he's blocking them too.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

It's a classic thing. And by the way, there's a little bit of peace for you in this. The classic thing is that when things get big, he avoids. Right? And it's classic. I do it. A lot of people do it. And we usually do it until someone calls us out, someone that we care about and trust calls us out, and we're like, okay, I can't hide. So what I'm suggesting is when you're dealing with someone who's an avoidant like that, they like to play victim. So he comes out of the shell and says, I'm done ghosting. Now you want to talk. You've been sitting in ghost world, so you've got some feelings, and you. You let him out a little bit, right? He immediately goes, well, I'm a bad boy, and there's no helping me. So then back to ghost mode. Does that sound accurate?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

So what I'm suggesting is something you shouldn't have to do. But is the answer what I'm suggesting? You shouldn't have to do the heavy lifting. But when you say, hey, man, I know you, and I see you and I hear you, and there's nothing you can say to me that I can't handle not showing your hand by the way, we hooked up and now I'm in love with you. Okay, you don't have to say any of that, but you can say, it hurts me when you ghost me, because we've been friends a long time, and there's nothing you can't tell me. So can we get past that? Can you share with me what that's about? Where do you go when you go? Right. As a friend would do to a friend. Not so much as it relates to me. Right. And then that may open him up enough to feel safe, enough to go, well, here's what's going on, because the answer could be a million things. It could be, I'm afraid of a relationship. Oh, my God. I think I'm in love with you, and that scares me. Or, we hooked up, and that's great, but I don't want it to be more than this. There's a million answers, and if we sit here and do that, you're gonna go fucking crazy. So what's the answer?

[D]

Yeah, because I might get the answers in my head, so I need the answer.

[C]

That's right. And you're allowed to have the answers. And he may not even give you the answers, but you're allowed to ask. And then at that point, after you've asked and he's responded, you can say thank you for that honesty or I don't think you're being honest and I don't think this is working for me. Whatever. You then have an action that you can take. That's not a reaction. But before you ask the question, this is just a soap opera you're creating that makes you feel terrible.

[D]

Exactly.

[B]

Are you currently blocked?

[D]

Yes. He said me an email. I'll reach out when I calm down.

[C]

When I calm down. So he's now putting it on you because you lashed out at him. I'm too angry to talk to you.

[D]

Yes, yes.

[B]

And you just called them ugly child.

[D]

It just feels like it's like we're 17 fighting, you know, not 40 year old.

[C]

But by the way, that's really astute what you just said, because your friendship started at that age. So that framing of your friendship is your default. Right. So he's going to go back to that. And unless you reframe it safely for him, unfortunately, you got to do the heavy lifting to make him feel safe, which sucks. But until you reframe it, it's going to be a teenage relationship where he's always wanted to hook up because he's always been there. You've always felt the tension. We've been friends. I got married, you got married, we had kids, life went on. Never really worked out, but we've always wanted to. Now we have. Now it's weird and I don't know what to do. So I'm not going to call you. That's 17 year old behavior.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

We also just kind of tend to revert back to our childlike self anytime we're triggered. Like an emotional response. It's like a fight or flight thing.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And honestly, we're. I think no matter how old we are, we're. I'm definitely capable of.

[C]

Yeah, I did it today. I do it a lot, you know, that's why we need people in our lives to call our shit out or we will continue to do it. Right. That's what relationship is. That's why we have relationships.

[B]

Just out of curiosity, what was your dating life looking like before you hooked up with him?

[D]

Not really existent. I'm not. I wasn't in a place to do that.

[B]

What are your outside of him? What are your relationship goals right now?

[D]

Focusing on my kid.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

And my career.

[B]

And is that both fulfilling things right now?

[D]

Oh, absolutely.

[B]

So you're not. You're not pining over, like, the idea of still want. Like, right now, it's not a huge priority for you to be like, I'd like to find someone to share life with right now. That's not something that's top of mind.

[D]

Right. Right.

[B]

Well, that's.

[D]

Yeah. It's just not in the cards right now.

[B]

That puts you in a position of power to have this conversation with him. Because, like, if that's true, the stakes are low.

[C]

That's great.

[B]

It's a cherry on top. That's the best position to be in when you're dating is to be like, I don't need it, but I want it. You know, like, this is a good thing between us, so let's explore it. But if it doesn't work out, I'm very content being a mom, focusing on my career. I. I'm honestly, like, this is all gravy.

[C]

So, like, this is really good on a couple levels. That's really good, Nick, because one is you get to know that, you know, if a relationship enhances my life, cool. But I'm not. I'm not pining to have one. I'm not searching to find a mate because my life is empty. But the other side of that is that's a great place to stand on when talking to him. Right. Just so you're clear, dude, I like you and I love you, but I don't need you. Right? Not as an indictment, but it get. Let him off the hook a little bit. You may be sitting there worried that now that we. This is nothing you need to say to him, but something like backstory. He may be sitting there worried now that we've hooked up, she's expecting a, B and C. I don't know how to deal with that. So I isolate. So you get to say to him, just so that we're clear, I've loved hooking up with you. I've loved being your friend. I'm interested to see where it could go. But I'm not shopping for a mate. You know what I mean? I'm good.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

I just don't like it when you ghost me because you're my friend, and that hurts. What's up, dude? And that takes the pressure out of it a little bit. Nick, that's insane. That's really good. Because when you get clear that it's not. I found my. Finally, after all these years, I can tell you my truth, that you're Prince Charming, which may be some truth, but you can say, look, I got A kid, I got a career. I'm cooking. I'm cooking, and we are hooking up. And that's awesome. But when you ghost me, it's not. So let's get past that or let's not do this at all.

[D]

Okay. I like that.

[B]

And one more thing too, because again, like, just. Let's just acknowledge that you did have an emotional reaction. He did trigger you, and you lashed out. Right. Which means that to whatever degree you care, and now maybe you caring is just feeling like, again, why is your friend just treating you like this? Like, why is he. Maybe it's just that simple. But if he can't communicate to you in the way that you want to be communicated to because you're now being physically intimate, I would stop hooking up with him. Right. In the sense. Because again, maybe it's good sex or whatever, but you don't need it. You can probably find it with someone else, and it will probably be more fun because there's less of an emotional weirdness. But if he can't meet you where you want him to meet you, however, whatever that looks like, it would probably. You'd be doing yourself a favor to end that physical relationship because it is. It is obviously affecting you, and it's hard not to get in your head. And I think, yeah, that would be. That would be a challenge. If he's. If he still kind of keeps doing this or is like, what do you mean? Or kind of plays dumb or is avoidant or whatever that, you know, that

[C]

looks like I can be even stronger. This. You cannot hook up with him again until you clear up this communication. You can't do it.

[D]

I agree.

[C]

I'm telling you as your dad, you're not allowed to do that again until you have this conversation.

[B]

Well, that's another thing too. It's just like, why I asked, because it's like, this has all the makings of something that could go on for a while. He's been in your life since high school.

[C]

Yeah. It's gonna cycle if you allow it.

[B]

Yeah. And that will take away your ability to show up as a mom or as an employee or what? Like, it. It sucks your emotional energy and already is. We always act like we have infinite amount of time and energy.

[C]

When we don't, there's another side of this too. But on the other side of this, all of those possibilities are possible. Right? So you can't continue like this. But sometimes the upset that you're in right now is the catalyst to a relationship. Neither of you realize that you could have. That might be amazing, right? Either as friends or as lovers. But until you get past this naturally awkward situation. Right. With some maturity, meaning you got to be the mature one, then anything's possible on the other end. Most importantly, your peace and feeling hurt and. And not feeling, you know, used in this situation.

[D]

Exactly. Yeah.

[B]

This is helpful.

[D]

Oh, yeah. That's what I needed, Nick, y', all, to be honest.

[B]

Well, go forth and be prosperous, and we wish you the best. Please let us know how this plays out with an update.

[D]

Shot it later on, guys. Thank you.

[B]

All right, take care now. Quick message from today's sponsor, the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program. Well, pet parents out there, you know what it's like that 2:00am call of like, I don't think my dog is supposed to eat that. How bad is it? You got to go to the dog hospital. It's super expensive. It's not fun. Well, now we have something that can change the game for you. It's the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Plan. Well, when those midnight accidents happen, that's exactly why the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Plan exists. It helps take the financial question out of the equation so when something feels off, you can focus on getting your pet the care it needs when it needs it, instead of stressing out about, what is this going to cost me, which is very relatable to everyone. We love our dogs and let it be. Let it be a little easier to love them so that if they do something bad, it doesn't break the wallet. And bonus, when you Enroll in the ASPCA pet health insurance plan, you could get a $25Amazon gift card. It's a little treat for you while doing something great for your pet. The program is customizable, offers customizable accident and illness plans, making it easier to get your pet the care it needs. It's been around for almost 20 years, and it has covered over 1 million pets in that time. You can tailor your plan to fit your budget, your lifestyle, and your pet's particular quirks. So to Explore coverage, visit ASPCA pet insurance.com v I a l l that's as P pet insurance.com v I a L l eligibility restrictions apply. Visit aspcapetinsurance.com Amazon terms for more info. This is the paid advertisement. Insurance is underwritten by either Independence American Insurance Company or United States Fire Insurance Company and produced by PTZ Insurance Agency Ltd. The ASPCA is not an insurer and is not engaged in the business of insurance. Well, I have 10 brothers and sisters. I have a lot of employees. And while I am blessed with perfect eyesight, many people in this world are not. And I know a lot of glasses people. I'm looking at one right now. Mary. They can be both a blessing and a curse, a great accessory to a wardrobe. But sometimes you break them, they can get expensive. Well, if you relate to that. Have you heard of Zenni? Well, if you haven't, you will be glad that you did. Today on this podcast. Zenny is the online eyewear shop. Prescription glasses, sunglasses, blue light glasses, starting even fashion frames starting at under $30. Go to zenni.com pick a frame, upload your prescription, and they ship it to your door. No appointment, no store, no upsell at the counter. Stop making getting glasses feel like you're going car shopping. Just make it easy. And under $30, you can get a variety of glasses. If you break them, no problem. Try something new. Mary has a personal story.

[D]

I love Zenny. I just started using it.

[E]

I used to always be so specific

[D]

about the type of glasses I would want because it's like they're the only ones you have and they're so expensive and you wear them forever. But with Zenni, I can just kind of like, have fun with it.

[E]

They're only $30.

[D]

I can order my fun glasses, my

[C]

serious glasses, you know, my nighttime glasses.

[D]

Maybe you want different things. I also, like, can color coordinate with them. With outfits, different vibes, I can really change up what I want to do, and it just feels really freeing.

[C]

It's so easy.

[B]

If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, now is the time. Go to zenny.com [e-mail] podcast and use code PODCAST15 for 15 off your first order. The styles sell out, so don't sit on it. That's Z-E-N-N-I.com podcast with promo code PODCAST15. How's it going?

[E]

It's going good. How are you?

[B]

Good. What's your name?

[E]

My name is Carly and I'm 32 years old.

[B]

How can we help Carly?

[E]

So I have a question. If this guy is choosing to be engaged, why is he taking the time to pursue me beyond friendship? And does his fiance know?

[B]

Okay, tell us the nature of this relationship, how it started, and why you feel like he is pursuing you.

[E]

So we've known each other for probably eight years. We've been really good friends. We've always had, like, a very flirtatious relationship. And probably about a year and a half ago, like, things started really changing because prior to that, he had had a girlfriend, and it was. It's almost kind of like now. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. So he had a girl, he had a girlfriend. They ended up breaking up. He started really trying to, I guess, reach out to me more. We saw each other a lot more. Things escalated a little bit more. And then.

[B]

What does that mean?

[E]

It just kind of went from there.

[B]

I mean, when you say escalated more, like, physically.

[E]

Yeah, like, physically escalated. We. It was just a lot of, like, together time and a lot of very flirtatious sexual messages and stuff like that.

[B]

Do you guys ever hook up?

[E]

We did.

[B]

Okay. And so while. When you first hooked up, that was after he broke up with the last girlfriend?

[E]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was between, like, he had broke. He had been broken up for probably, like four months.

[B]

Okay. And after you guys hooked up, what. What did those conversations look like? Did you feel like it was going somewhere or like, how? Why? What happened?

[E]

So I knew that the likelihood of it going anywhere, nothing would really. It might not substantiate to anything.

[B]

So why?

[E]

He wasn't interested in having a long distance relationship, and neither really was I. And we were. We live about, like, two to three hours apart from each other.

[B]

Okay.

[E]

But we would travel for work. Both of us would travel. So we would see one another. Because I would go to go to the city he lives in. He would sometimes come here. I knew it wouldn't amount to anything, but it didn't. Like, at that point, like, I didn't know he was seeing anyone else, so it didn't matter to me. Like, we were just kind of having fun, enjoying our time together and seeing where things would go.

[B]

I'm sure you don't want to be a homewrecker or the other girl, but I imagine you're not calling in only to find out whether she knows or not. Right. And I totally understand that, like, when this first happened, you kind of had this kind of built in excuse as to why it's not gonna go anywhere. And it sounds like the long distance was the reason why. You kind of personally set a low expectation of where this thing could go. But I'm also kind of guessing you're calling in because you care more about where you stand with him than maybe you even let on to yourself.

[E]

Yeah, that's probably correct. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

All right.

[C]

How did you find out he was engaged? Like, how did it go from? He broke up with a girlfriend. Four months goes down. You guys are kind of you know, flirting and seeing each other a little bit. And then tell me how it gets to this engagement.

[E]

So we were probably having, like, the flirting and the everything happening. It was probably up until January of this year. I knew that he was talking to. And he told me unofficially, seeing another girl. That was what he was. He told me, like, where he lived. And I was like, cool, I'm seeing other people. Totally fine. What happened was when I. I was in his city in January, we were going to see one another. It didn't work out. I told him, like, hey, if it's not going to work, like, let me know. I'm totally fine with it. And he told me that he was in a sticky situation with this girl that he was seeing outside of me. And I was like, oh, that's like, kind of strange. Like, whatever. I don't know what that means, but I'm not gonna press you on it. Like, if you wanna share more, you can. And then two weeks later, he posted on Instagram or she. Sorry, she posted on Instagram and, like, tagged him that they were engaged. And it was literally two weeks after he was like, oh, I'm gonna make it up for you. I'll come see you. And so I was just shocked.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Did you say something to him about it?

[E]

I did. I messaged him and I said, first off, I'm going to say congratulations on your engagement. So happy for you.

[C]

Well played.

[E]

And then he got back to me and he told me that they had a pregnancy scare and it escalated things quickly. And I didn't say anything that night. I waited till the next day and I told him, hey, like, I need to have space from you. We need to, like, separate. I don't feel right with how we were interacting. And he doubled down and told me that she was pregnant or he got her pregnant, even though I really don't think she is pregnant now and that he would do anything to make things right. And I just had to tell him what I wanted from him and he would do it. Which, I mean, what I would want is for him to not have kind of lied to me.

[B]

Not kind of. Yeah. Seems like he still is. Possibly. I guess my question. He gave you a lot of information, and we're both obviously happy to continue to help you understand where he's coming from, but I guess my question to you is, knowing what you know now, why do you care? And not, like, I get why you care, but, like, the part of you that, like, kind of gets outside of your body and sees it for what it is. Why are you. Why are you still trying to figure him out?

[C]

Not so much. Why do you care? Why are you still in it?

[B]

Yeah. And why are you trying to figure it out?

[E]

Yeah. So him and I were friends. Like, we were friends. We talked every day for eight years, and we never wanted to, like, ruin a friendship over anything like this.

[B]

Over. Over. Over an engagement.

[C]

An engagement and child.

[E]

So I guess over, like, any type of, like, our relationship not working out.

[B]

Yeah. But, like, I mean, you guys were never. Whatever you were. It wasn't, like, platonic best friends. Right. Like, we know that. Right. It never was that.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

So without even having the conversation with him, you. You. You must assume that eventually that this. Whatever this was, was going to run its course. And that was. And that would be like, whenever one of you or both of you meets someone and really wants to like.

[C]

Or commit to each other.

[B]

Yeah. Or commit to each other. Yeah.

[C]

Which is what I think the hope is you are holding out, but for

[E]

a little bit, I think a little bit I was holding out for that, but, yeah, I was probably holding out a little bit for that.

[B]

A little bit or a lot of bit or.

[E]

I think a little bit. I. I think what is more bothering me about it now is that he. I asked for space. He gave me space for a week, and then he started reaching back out to me again. There was a moment where he was messaging me so much that I was like, there's no way that they're still engaged. Something must have happened. And then I found out that, like, they were together the whole. Like, they were on vacation together, and he was making it seem like he wasn't there with her.

[B]

Yeah. So my. My read on this is, to Mark's point, I think. I think you care about this guy, and I think your overall impression of him over the past eight years has been he's a pretty decent guy and a guy you might care about, and you're, you know, the possibility of things really developing to something special was always in the back of your mind. You've learned, like I said, a lot of new information about this guy. And. And more than anything is that he's kind of a bit of a liar.

[C]

And you've learned all this information not because he told you, not because he

[B]

told you that's important. And information about how he moves. Like, if he. You, you know, one of your questions, like, of course she doesn't know. And what she doesn't know is that when he was getting engaged to her, he was describing to someone else. Let Alone, forget about you. The fact that you've hooked up, the fact that there is some kind of emotional connection that you have and an your friendship. If he told a random stranger what he told you, it would be so painful to her to have like her engagement be described as. How did you say it?

[C]

It was sticky.

[B]

Sticky? Yeah, it was sticky. Then it was a pregnancy scare. This is not how you want someone to describe them choosing you, right? And this is how he's talking about this, this other woman, right? And I think what's been hard for you to process is that this is a person you've had a pretty, at least a decent amount of respect for. You've thought fairly highly of him. And he is demonstrating certain types of behavior that like, honestly, for a person who, for two people who don't know this guy, don't care about this guy, he sounds kind of shitty, you know, and sounds like kind of the worst type of guy who is. He easily talks out of both sides of his mouth and will say what he needs to say to make the person in front of him feel validated and heard without giving any consideration of how it might feel to those people he claims to care about. God only knows what he says about you. If she does know your existence, who knows what he's saying?

[C]

Everything Nick says is probably accurate, but I'd really like to reshape this a little bit to talk about what role you have and what you can do to feel better. Right, Because I don't know him, but I now know you, Carly. So you're obviously feeling some feelings and they're not comfortable. They feel pretty shitty and I'd like you to feel better. Right? So what you, what you may not realize in the swirl of less than honest communication is that you have some agency here. You know what I mean by that? You actually have some control. You're not the victim. And so what that looks like is you get to be the honest, clear one, even in the face of somebody not being honest and clear. So reframing the relationship in a way to say, look, we've been friends a long time, we've been intimate a little bit. I dig you. You seem to like me. But here's what's okay with me and what's not okay with me. Any conversation we're having that your fiance doesn't know about and would make her feel bad. I'm not down. I'm not. I don't want to be in that game. I'm not going to lower my self worth to the level where whatever crumbs you give me of attention, I'm waiting to feed on. Got it. Because what you're doing is acquiescing to. I know it's not really clean. I know it's like, not on the up and up. But when he kind of pays attention to me, that feels good. And I kind of. I'm okay with it. So you standing 10 toes on you is to say, bro, I. I like you. If this was to be something with us, I'd be open to that. But while you have a fiance and a kid on the way, you can't be texting me how hot I am and you can't be trying to see me when I'm. You're in my town. Because if you were my guy and you were doing that with somebody else, I wouldn't feel great about that. Have you ever had that conversation or at least held yourself in enough esteem to be able to say that?

[E]

So not. We did have a conversation where I told him that I felt like a terrible person and I didn't feel right with how our communication had been, and it was just not appropriate. And I thought that he would take the hint from that and pull and just go back to being friends and talking to about normal life, stuff like work, sports teams, like, stuff like that. Not.

[C]

Yeah, it doesn't go back in the box. It's hard to put that back in the box. It takes someone to say, okay, not okay, here's the boundary.

[B]

Also, the element of, like, you're. What you're doing in that is telling them no. And people don't like to be told no.

[C]

Right. And you're not even telling him no. You're saying, I don't like the way it feels, but I'll do it. Yeah, this is inappropriate. I need to just go on record and say, this is an appropriate relationship. But I'll return your texts is what you're basically saying. And I get that, Carly, because if you say something else, then it. It will feel like loss to you. You're losing him. But what I'm going to say to you is a little rough. You're losing somebody you don't have. Right. You're losing. Because what I think that you're not paying attention to is that you're worth having somebody that's only about you. You're worth having somebody that wants to be only with you. Right. And when you then mirror to other people that you're willing to be this casual, secret, texting flirt, it leaves you feeling empty with questions. He gets to play a game where he's the great guy at home, but he's. When he gets a little turned on, he texts you and says, hey, you know, what are you wearing? Whatever. Right. But it's about you standing for what you want. Even though what it will feel like right off the bat is loss. It'll feel a little bit like I'm cutting off something that fills me up because it feels good, but it also feels bad. And you said that. Right, Right. But it's about you having a boundary, because you're not going to have somebody that loves only you while this kind of thing is going on in your life. It's a block. You're blocking your own possibilities by being complicit in his not so truthful relationship with you.

[E]

Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

[B]

Have you ever shot your shot with him? Yeah.

[C]

That's another conversation that's really, really something I didn't think about.

[E]

Not like we, like, have had conversations where it's been, like, if we could change how things were, like, when we first met and go back to how, like, things could have been eight years ago, we would do things differently.

[B]

What does that mean?

[E]

We would probably be together, but that's all theoretical.

[B]

But also, what does it mean? I mean, what is the thing that's stopping you? Because when you first talked about being in a relationship, it seemed like the long distance was the biggest. At least that's what you guys said to each other. Barrier from you guys trying.

[E]

Yeah. So we lived in the same city for about five years before I moved away. So we were. That's how we met. We met when we were living in the same city and working together.

[B]

And why didn't things happen then?

[E]

Cause he had been. He was seeing a different girl and I was seeing a different guy.

[B]

And what was the. What did that friendship look like then?

[C]

Still flirty.

[E]

So at the beginning, it was just very strictly, like, friendships. Like, I. We were just friends. We, like. We both grew up in the same area, so we both had very, like, strong feelings about different sports teams and got it. Then I broke up with the guy that I was seeing, and we kind of lost touch. And then we kind of started talking again, and it just kept escalating from there. So at first it wasn't as, like, flirtatious or sexual or anything. It just built.

[C]

Can I give you. Can I give you a definition of what Nick says? Shoot your shot. What that looks like not what it would have been. But today the shot is, hey, Joe, whatever your name is, I'm into you. You seem to be into me a little bit. Call me when you're not in a relationship and we can talk about it.

[E]

Yeah, no, I've never done that.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[C]

I know that sounds foreign, doesn't it?

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

But do you see how clear and. And honest that is? Like, look, you're obviously into me, I'm into you. There could be a possibility. So when you don't have a. A fiance and a child on the way, maybe hit me up.

[F]

Up.

[C]

In the meantime, I'm not down because I hold myself to somebody's. I'm worthy of having somebody that's into only me. And I want to only be into you or someone. So when that's a possibility. No, no hate, no shade. Whatever we've done, I've been part of too, so it's not all you. But from this point forward, I'd be down when you could be down, but not until it's no secrets. I can't be that person.

[B]

And part of the reason why I think that's so important is because if we were to try to give this guy grace and figure out a way to justify what appears to be some deceit and lies, and if nothing else, just him being a bad partner to whoever his fiance is, would be because you guys have never really been honest with each other and you've done these kind of mental gymnastics.

[C]

You enable each other. Yeah.

[B]

And you've made it more confusing than it needs to be. And. No. And you guys have always come up with some kind of excuses as to why you haven't shot your shot. So you're actually. You guys have made each other each other's kind of security blanket, backup plan, whatever it is that kind of the person who's kind of always there while in between these other relationships you guys are developing. And, and, and then that would make a lot of sense because, like, it.

[C]

It.

[B]

What doesn't make sense is why is if he is in fact gauging regardless if she's pregnant or not, why is he. So why is he fighting for you in a way that almost seems bizarre? You know, it would make sense that he. Over these past eight years, you have brought value to each other's life and you've been there for him. And, and maybe he's not really acknowledging whatever this is because you guys have never really put a label on it and it's been, it's been so ambiguous.

[C]

Well, and also because it's long distance is part of it. That's been the enabler of this. Yeah. That's a great excuse to hang your hat on. And so it's. It's titillating and fun and exciting when you guys text and. And flirt with each other. And that fills you up a little bit. Oh, I'm. I'm. I'm a hot thing. He's kind of down. And then you do the same for. So he's like, in his everyday, mundane life every now and then has an urge hit you up. It's safe because you're four hours away. And then you guys flirt. He feels good about it. It's a secret, but whatever. But you have a role in that, too. And that relationship is a relationship, but it's leaving you wanting more and leaving him in a pretty suspect situation. And that's why I'm suggesting if you were to take a second ago, what do I really want? Don't cast him in it. But what do I really want out of a relationship in my life moving forward for a long time? And if that answer is, I don't want a relationship, I want casual stuff, then you make your own choices. Right? But if the answer is, I'd like to find my person, then this stuff is noise that gets in the way of finding your person that you get to control. He's not going to control it. The more he let. The more you allow him to have this fun, the more he's going to have it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Right?

[B]

When things are ambiguous, especially titles and where we stand, like, there tends to be one person definitely overstaying their welcome because he's like, is that me in our relationship?

[C]

Nick, you need to tell me something.

[B]

I love you. I hope you know where I stand

[C]

with you,

[B]

but you know what I'm saying. And I. I think he seems to be taking advantage of this ambiguity between the two of you, because again, you guys, there is some. There is some genuine care that you guys have.

[C]

He's been in your life a long time.

[B]

Yeah. You do something for him that he doesn't want to let go. You haven't shot your shot. For whatever reason, he. He hasn't either.

[C]

He doesn't have to. You've made it that he doesn't have to. He can live his life there and do what looks good on paper and whatever. I don't know where he's at with her. He might really be in love with her and just not be a great guy, or it might be unclear. I'm not really going to even indict him. But what Nick's saying is, until you shoot your shot, and that doesn't mean try to win him. That means shoot your shot of authenticity. What is it I want? What am I willing to do? A better way to say it is create boundaries. Don't be complicit in something that leaves you feeling empty, which, like I said at first is going to feel like loss, but that's like quitting smoking feels like loss until you realize that it's killing me.

[B]

That's a good analogy.

[C]

That's not a bad analogy. That makes me want to have a cigarette, but nonetheless, you understand what I'm saying?

[B]

Yeah. And to Mark's point, you have to be willing to have the conversation that if the conversation doesn't go the way you want, it will end the relationship. And you've been avoiding that for some time now. It feels like, or sounds like. And then you start ask, asking yourself some of these questions that either a, you probably know the answer to. And if, and if you, even if you don't know the answer, the fact that you have to ask yourself these questions lets you know kind of where you stand. Regardless of the answer. It doesn't matter if she's pregnant or not, right? I mean, he's engaged and he clearly lied to you about that. And honestly, that's not even the worst part of the story. The worst part of the story is how he spoke about his fiance to another person. I mean, honestly, like, in my mind, she's like the bigger victim in this story.

[C]

To be like, well, you're both victims of the story. And that speaks to shooting your shot with a guy that you don't want anyway. It really comes down to the same thing I say all the time to women your age. And quite frankly, it's not even age specific in the swirl of relationship. We're searching for validation. And we love it when someone loves us, even if we don't love them. We love it when someone loves us. Right? And that's almost like a drug, right? We don't care how we get it. It just feels good when we get it. And so the thing that's foreign to most people is taking a second to say, wait a minute, what's my value? And what am I worth? And what do I get to have and be a stand for? Right? So that I'm not acquiescing to something that feels good but leaves me empty. And the process of getting there means that you have to give up the things that are giving you little dopamine hits to clear that out. To have not a dopamine hit, but a healthy infusion of a forever natural supplement. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

So.

[C]

But it would. It would mean you looking in the mirror and going, I'm worth more than this. I'm worth more than this. Look at me. Some guy gets to be with me forever, right? Not when he texts me. I can flirt with him and that makes me feel pretty good for a few minutes.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

What has dear dating life been looking like in between interactions with him?

[E]

So I've dated other people. I've had, like, I've had boyfriends. I've. But whenever I have a boyfriend, I think the difference between him and I is if I have a boyfriend, I pull back completely.

[D]

Sure.

[E]

I'm not.

[B]

Speaks to your character, but like, I guess right now you're just kind of. You're single, so you've been willing to talk.

[E]

I'm single. I'm just dating people now, like, other people.

[C]

I got a question for you. Have you had a serious relationship? Any significant serious relationship? And how did that end, if you had one?

[E]

Yes. Yes, I have. It ended because the person I was seeing there was like a huge part of his life that he didn't tell me, which. So that's why I ended it because he didn't tell me till, like, it was too late.

[C]

Don't need to hear the details. How did it make you feel at the end of that?

[E]

Not good. About myself or about the situation.

[C]

And could there be. I'm just going to offer this to you to think about it if you feel safe talking about this. If I'm getting too close, you tell me to stop. But could it be that that feeling of not being worthy or that he left me because I wasn't enough or whatever how you phrase it. Could it be that there's part of that still lingering in your belief about you?

[E]

I think maybe a little bit. Just because I don't. Yeah. I don't know why I keep getting like. Like lied to or information's left out about things that are big parts of people's lives.

[C]

Thank you for sharing that. That's really, really helpful. So would you like the answer to that?

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

You keep getting lied to or things are being withheld from you because you're allowing that framework of a relationship to be in your life.

[F]

Life.

[C]

Right. Because you somehow are telling yourself I'm only worthy of some of this and that men keep secrets from me. I'm not worth the whole truth. But I'm going to tell you that you are worth the whole truth and that his. The old guy who hurt you that broke up the guy you were in a relationship with, his issues of why he wasn't straight with you or honest with you, that has nothing to do with you, that has to do with him. But you've taken it on, and now you're in a situation with someone that looks quite similar, doesn't it? Yeah, you see.

[E]

Different lie. But.

[C]

Yeah, you see the similarities, though, that there are parts that can't be just parts of your relationship with this guy that you're kind of into and who's kind of into you that you can't share with the world. So it's a secret, but you're kind of allowing that to be. Which all comes down to what you're saying about what you get to have have. How you feel about you, what you think your capacity, what you're allowed to have. That's a lot to stomach. But the point is, a thought that you haven't considered is, what if, Carly, what if you're allowed to have everything? You're allowed to have somebody that is honest, that supports you, that holds you when you're having a hard time, that you can tell the truth, to lose your shit with all that. What if you're allowed to have that?

[E]

Yeah, that would be better.

[C]

That would be better, wouldn't it?

[B]

Just out of curiosity, the last guy, it doesn't matter what the lie is, but did he almost, in a kind of gaslighting way, try to justify the lie in a way that felt confusing to you? Almost like your current situation? He's like almost pretending, I don't really care about her.

[C]

I'm in this thing, but it's okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And in a way, that's a gasp. He's not acknowledging it. Is there similarities with the lie, Alaska.

[E]

No, it was a. Like a different type of situation.

[C]

Okay. I think, however, what we can look at that are. That are similarities. The for instances will be different, but where there's possibility for you is looking at the things that are similar that you somehow have said is okay. Do you understand?

[E]

Yeah, I do.

[C]

Somehow your soul says, I want more. It feels. I feel upset. But somehow in your psyche you said, but this is okay. This is what relationship is. I'm. I'm kind of okay with it. And okay is not what I want for you. And when you decide that okay is not what you want for you, then you kind of have to do the work of looking in the mirror and saying, regardless of what men say or do, I'm the prize. I get to have all. All of the things and you men get to audition for me. And then I'm going to decide which one of you I get to give the grace of being with me. Holding yourself like you are royalty. Right. Which is very difficult because society, generationally, culturally, men, toxic masculinity has made you possibly feel like, as a woman, I'm only allowed to have a C plus relationship. That's as good as I'm gonna get. I better take it. I'm saying you. You get to have all of it.

[B]

As you're processing what. What we're saying, what do you think your. Your next move is with this situation?

[E]

I think that I either need to, like, man up and tell him, like, exactly how I'm feeling or completely just kind of back away from the friendship that we have or are pretending to have, whatever is happening.

[C]

I think both. I think both of those man up and tell them how you feel and then put a boundary until it's something healthy.

[B]

Unless, I mean, I guess, unless she decides, based off of the recent information you've discovered that you don't want to bother.

[C]

Well, there's that. You don't have to do. Anything you do has to be for you, not for him. Right. So you don't man up and say this so that he gets clarity. But if it makes you feel better to have said your piece, then do it. If you can be peaceful without saying it, then just ghost, you know, and get out of this and start protecting yourself.

[B]

Whatever the truth is with his fiance is that he has demonstrated some pretty low character choices with some people that should be really important to him, not being super upfront about a pregnancy or

[C]

an engagement, if that's even true.

[B]

But if he's lying about, you know, like, you know, but whatever the truth is, you know, you're not getting all of it. And even if you shot your shot and he was like, you know what? You're right. If I'm you, I would be troubled by how he communicated some of this stuff and his propensity to lie about the situation. I think there's a lot of people who just couldn't tell a lie like that.

[E]

Realistically, I don't think I could ever be in a relationship with him.

[B]

Okay.

[E]

Again, because it's too much lying. And if he did it to one person, he would do it too. He could do it to me, and I don't.

[C]

Well, he, He.

[E]

I mean, we've been friends for so long.

[C]

Is doing it to you, and you are in a relationship with him. You get that if he texts you and you respond, that's a relationship. You understand? It's not the relationship in the terms you might define it, but it is some form of relationship. Okay. That you're allowing to be. And what I. I keep going back to the same thing. When you were a little, little girl and you pictured happily ever after, it didn't look like this, did it?

[E]

No.

[B]

And to Mark's point, once you have an expectation of how someone should behave when you do something, that's a relationship.

[C]

Yeah. Well, if there's communication, that's. That's some sort of relationship. Even if it's a hostile relationship, if you're communicating with someone you're in a lawsuit with, that's a relationship. In this situation, you're sitting on ice in a town four hours away, and occasionally he hits you up with some sexy text, and you respond, and it feels good. It's like a dopamine hit, right?

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

Then he doesn't respond, and you sit at home going, I feel terrible. And then part of you says, but this is what relationship is, and that's what I get.

[F]

And.

[C]

Okay, I'll just compartmentalize. I won't think about it. It's okay. Right. And I guess I keep saying the same thing. I'm inviting you to say maybe you're worth more than that. And even if it means having to wean yourself off of something that's bringing you some joy. Right. It's not a healthy joy. It's McDonald's. It's not health food. So it tastes good because of the salt and the sugar, but it's not making you better. It's not feeling good in your body. Right. Again, it's horrible metaphors. Forgive me for that.

[B]

It's actually pretty good.

[C]

It's actually.

[B]

I love a good food metaphor. Yeah.

[C]

Food, smoking. You get the point. The point is, you know in your soul, this isn't a healthy thing. And you know in your soul how you felt in the other relationship when there were secrets, even though they're different secrets. And yet part of you says, I guess I better just be okay with this. And I'm saying if the little girl were to talk to the adult, she would say, I think we thought we were better than this. I think we were hoping for better than this. And I'm telling you, there is better than this. You get to have it. It's not that you're not allowed to have it. It's not that you're not capable of it. It's not that you're not lovable. It's not that you're not beautiful. It's not anything you've done or are doing. You just have to own it and not play these games that get in the way.

[B]

Think about the energy you've invested as maybe a way to help motivate you to move forward. Because you're still going to be sad and it will still feel like a loss, to my point, for a minute, but it's stopping you from whatever you want in your relationship, with your relationship life and in whatever your relationship goals are. This is taking a lot out of you and it makes a lot of sense why it is. Because again, this is a guy who's at some sometimes is saying what? Whatever you want, you tell me, I'll do it. And that feels very romantic and good. Someone's willing to do ever. They will do whatever they can.

[C]

It's every romantic comedy. I've got this guy, but he's got a girlfriend, but she loves me. And the whole thing happens until the girl has the epiphany and the guy gets kicked to the curb, and then she has the life of her that you want. So here's how you get it really clearly. Check this out. Let's say right now you meet a new guy and he's way into you and you're kind of into him and you're having a relationship, but on the side you're getting texts from him and you're returning the texts. So you're having this secret flirtation outside of this new relationship. Is that something that you, Carly, would be down for? I don't think so. I think if you were into a guy, you'd be into him, right?

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

But it's okay for him to do this to you. So you're allowing that double standard to happen. It's okay to be part of it, even though I would never allow this. You understand?

[E]

Yeah, I do.

[C]

And what Nick is saying, the energy you have, both playing the game and enjoying it and feeling bad about it when it's not there, is in the way. It's so much energy that you are not going to find someone else. It's just too much bandwidth. It's going to be too much white noise in the way of a possibility. Is that what you're saying, Nick? I think that's what I'm hearing.

[B]

Is this helpful?

[E]

No. Yeah, it's definitely helpful to hear.

[F]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. It's a lot to process. And there's a little bit of like, you're stuck in this.

[C]

Ugh.

[B]

Yeah. And I think to your point, like, it's helpful to hear. I think that speaks to, like, you know this stuff deep down, and like, you're just a little stuck and you're invested in this, but finding ways to get unstuck sooner than later will serve you in a really positive way. Way. And. And I know you didn't ask for this advice, but just if you're. Whatever is going on over there, not your problem, not your business, it's just more wasted energy. If you start wondering, should I tell her? Does she know that's his journey for. You know, like, that'll work itself out and it's not your problem.

[E]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, I know you probably don't like to hear that much. Listen, like, that's the thing. Like, you. You're gonna have to try to. The hardest part that you're in, and I've been there before, is just like. It's just you care. And even though if you know you shouldn't care, you care and you're emotionally vested. And then when. When that is going on, it is. It is tough to get out, but it's really important because it is. I don't even think you appreciate just how much it's taking out of you as someone who's been in your position before for whatever you know, for. It doesn't really matter the reason. It really consumes you. I'm sure you've. Before you emailed us. You know, you ran. You took the time to email us, and now you're taking the time to talk to us. I imagine you've talked to many of friends about this before you got to

[C]

us, which is also part of the drug, because having the drama to talk about is something we get addicted to as well. In the absence of a healthy relationship, we fill the hole with unhealthy and toxic relationships that are enough for us. So the drama of unrequited love or the drama of a guy doing this stuff that we get to talk about and have in our life also feels good somehow, right? That's what people. When they break up. That's why you were. I was listening to you. Ask Nick. Recently, we were telling somebody about when you break up, you got to break up. You got to do a clean breakup. Because what ends up happening is in the absence of what was the relationship, the not relationship becomes the relationship. And that's as much a thing as we're afraid of. The nothing we're afraid of. If I cut this off, the whole this is the way we look at it, that's left. I can't deal with but in fact, that hole is not whole. Think of it as space. Right. You can't plant a new plant if you don't create space in the garden for it. Another horrible metaphor.

[B]

That's pretty good.

[C]

So when we have a effed up relationship that we spend our time worrying about, talking about, lamenting about, looking for agreement from our friends about what a shitty guy this guy is. All that energy, your garden's full. There's no place, when we break it off, set a boundary, set stand for something bigger. It creates a space that at first feels like emptiness and. But in that space is where possibility can happen, where someone else can show up. And until that's there, nothing can happen except you feeling both great and then shitty great and then shitty great and then. And it's not even great. It's not even great. It's just not terrible and then shitty.

[B]

Yeah. And to Mark's point, you almost have to like, you know, I don't think you need to have a conversation. You need to break up with him.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Just say goodbye. You need to mourn the loss. Yeah.

[C]

And he can deal and he's gonna. And by the way, when you pull away, he's gonna come at you like, oh my God, you're the greatest thing. I love you so much. I'm gonna leave her. I'm gonna. He'll say all the things.

[B]

Yeah. I would block him.

[C]

Yeah. I would probably just say thanks for sharing and call me, you know, or don't you know? I wouldn't even say that because this guy, I don't think you want to call. So, you know, just stand with you. And I'm looking at you, right? You're this young, beautiful soul. And you are right where a lot of women and men end up in this swirl of bullshit. And you get. You probably don't realize that all along you've had the key to the door to open it up and get the hell out though fly, be free. It's gonna be good.

[B]

Well, thanks for the call. I hope this was helpful. The biggest takeaway, I think Mark said you got to create that space for yourself because this relationship is taking up a ton of. Of space in your life and I think you know where it needs to go. But you do have to create that space and that, and that comes from just kind of accepting what it is, mourning the loss, saying goodbye however you want to do it and truly move forward and enforce that boundary for yourself. Because he's not, to Mark's point, gonna want to respect that. And he will do Whatever he will break.

[C]

The more you put a boundary, the more he's going to climb over it. But you're going to realize two things when you set the boundary. You're going to have two feelings. One is relief and one is some self worth. Look what I did. And you're. It's a foreign feeling for you. You're gonna like it. I believe in you. It's gonna be great.

[E]

No, thank you.

[B]

All right, well, thanks for the call. Please give us an update. We'd love to know where things land with you and how. Hopefully it's how you moved forward and maybe saw things more clearly or come

[C]

back and introduce us to the new man in your life. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. If you find out, that'd be great. Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

Great. Thank you.

[B]

All right, take care.

[E]

You too.

[B]

All right, bye. Bye. Mother's Day is approaching. It's coming up. And for the mothers in your lives, whether it's your wife, your mom, your mom mom, your God mom, your dog mom, doesn't matter. Story Worth is a great way to give someone you love the gift of memories. I gave my dad a story worth for Father's Day some years back and he still cherishes it to this day. Here's how it works. Each week, story worth sends her a question your mom about her life. She responds however she wants. Writing back over email or web voice recording are new this year. They have a guided phone call. No apps, logins or tech hassles. It just makes it easy for your parents to reminisce about their lives. And some of my favorite childhood memories were listening to the stories of my aunts and uncles, my parents about how they were as kids. And now you can have that in a cherished keepsake. After a year of compiling stories, they will put it together in a book, just a hardcover book for you and your family to share. They have over 50,000 five star reviews, have created almost a million books books to loved ones around the world and that you can just we, we still share it. Always the holidays that book comes out and we reminisce about the good times and tease my dad. It's great. Everyone will love it. Your mom will especially love it. So this year give your mom the gift that helps her reflect on her life with fresh perspective and give your whole family the gift of her stories. Mother's day is Sunday, May 10th. Order right now and save up to [e-mail] v I a l l one more time save up to $20 at StoryWorth.com v I I a l StoryWorth.com v I a L L Spring is here and it's always good time to spring clean everything in your life, including your finances. Well, you can do that with Monarch. Monarch is the all in one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, budgeting accounts and investments, net worth and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this year and get 50% off off your Monarch subscription with code V I A L L. In a world that's always growing, it's great that Monarch helps me and now I keep our finances all aligned. We get trends on spending so maybe if she, you know, goes to home goods too many times I could just like a gentle reminder. But in all seriousness, it's great the insights you get with Monarch. They also have their AI assistant, their 247 access to financial coach accessible from anywhere in Monarch. From questions about trends in your spending to how to pay off debt, the AI assistant has answers. Monarch will also comb through the data to surface insights personalized to you, such as hidden patterns, identifying lifestyle creep versus inflation, changes in saving rates, and more. Every dollar counts these days and make sure that you add to your piggy bank with Monarch. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch. The all in one tool that makes money management simple. Use code V I A l [e-mail] to get your first year half off at just $50. That's 50 off your first [e-mail] with code V I A L L right

[A]

now I'm all about what is making my life easier, how can I be as relaxed as possible? And the answer to that question is Instacart right now. I have been using Instacart for so long because it makes your life so much easier. It's more than a grocery technology platform, it's a care company designed to make life easier. It connects you to thousands of stores across the United States, giving you time back to focus on what matters most. With just a few taps, you can shop from your favorite stores and have fresh groceries and household essentials ready for pickup or delivered to your door in as fast as 30 minutes. Instacart helps take care of delivering some of the things you love so that you're free to take care of life. I understand that the weekly restock can feel like a lot, whether you're shopping for just yourself or managing meals for the whole family. With Instacart you can take care of everything on your list without making a trip trip to the store. From meal prepping for the week to restocking the essentials, Instacart makes it easier to get it all done without adding an errand to your day.

[B]

We are absolutely obsessed with Instacart. There's nothing worse than like having a busy day, realizing it's already five o' clock and you just don't have time or want to go to the grocery store. Instacart is absolutely game changing in those days, and those days happen more often than not.

[A]

Instacart brings convenience, quality, and ease right to your door. So you can focus on what matters most. Download the Instacart app now and get groceries just how you like.

[B]

How's it going?

[F]

Good. My Name's Kendall, I'm 30 and we've been dating 10 years and he's still not sure he wants to marry me.

[B]

Okay, that, and that's what he says. I'm still not sure.

[F]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. That's a tough one.

[F]

It's not a no. I don't know, and it's not a yes.

[C]

So you're saying I got a chance.

[F]

Exactly.

[B]

Have you ever broken up?

[F]

Yes, Many times. Okay, so if you want me to go back a little, I can give you some background.

[B]

Yeah, give me some background. But you know, because it's 10 years and I imagine there's a lot lore there between the two of you. But give us the give me like the two minute, like, synopsis, but like focus on like the theme of how this relationship has made you feel over the years.

[F]

Yeah, so we, we met in college. It was like kind of toxic college relationship on and off. We broke up a lot of times. Then after college, we broke up and like went no contact for a few years. And then rekindled at a friend's wedding. He like, he's always been very non committal, so at the wedding he was like, I've been to therapy. I've, like worked so hard on myself getting to like the core of my problems. And I feel like, I don't know, kind of like I've changed in a way. So we started talking again. Now it's been two full years of consistently on no breakups. I moved across the state to be with him and now we live together. We lived together for six months. So now I brought up like the marriage conversation and. Yeah. And he's still not sure.

[B]

How old is he?

[F]

He's 28. I'm 30.

[B]

Okay. And all the breakups you guys had, who was breaking up with who?

[F]

It was mostly me breaking up with him, for the most part, because I was just kind of fed up with him, like, not committing. But there was one, I think, when he broke up with me because he wouldn't commit. So he was like, I don't. I'm not ready to date you right now. So, like, he cut that one off.

[B]

What is, what's he do for work, though?

[F]

He is very in, like, tech. Bay area tech stuff. He works like, constantly, like. All right. He's very into it. Yeah. Hard worker.

[B]

But he seems like he. But he's. He's settled in that, in that space of his life.

[F]

Yeah, I would say so. Okay.

[B]

Does he tell you why? He's not sure.

[F]

There's been a lot of different reasons from, like, he doesn't really see the value in marriage in general to, like, he doesn't know if he can align with my timeline of, like, having kids. He's not really good at, like, seeing or like, thinking far into the future. He's kind of like a live in the now kind of guy. So, like, us moving in together, he was like, it felt right in that moment, so it happened. Like, it didn't mean I was like, planning for it super far ahead.

[B]

Does he. Does he. Does he imply that he regrets that decision to move in with you?

[F]

No, he doesn't. So he says. I mean, he still thinks it was the right choice, but he is like, it doesn't mean that, like, I guess I was taking a step closer to wanting to get married. Yeah. He also, just because of all of our breakups, he's not sure that we can, like, I guess, like, get through everything. Yeah.

[C]

Can I ask a quick question about this six month living together?

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

Taking the marriage conversation out of the picture, when you guys aren't talking about that, how's the relationship? Is it. Are you guys having fun living together? Is it feeling pretty good?

[F]

Yeah, overall it's pretty good. I feel like the hardest part has been just like, we both have pretty demanding jobs, so we don't spend that much, like, quality time together. So it's kind of like coexisting, but there hasn't been, like, major issues.

[C]

Yeah. So without the conversation, the big specter of marriage in the room, you guys are cooking.

[F]

Yeah. And he said, like, I feel like I thought things were going well. Like, I thought you were kind of content with how this is going. So. Yeah. Overall it's been successful. Six months.

[C]

Okay. Nick, where you want to go with this?

[B]

Well, I mean, it's a tough one, right. Because there's like, to Mark's point. It's interesting because your first opening statement was, I've been dating him for 10 years and he still doesn't want to marry me, which that feels heavy. You've listened to the show. I'm a big believer in our narratives. We believe our own narratives. And I don't think when we say things out loud, even if we're being dramatic or whatever, I don't think we realize how much we actually listen to ourselves, whether it's when we're speaking out loud or internalize our thoughts and things like that. And then when we hear a little bit more about the story, there's a little bit more nuance to that. Right. You know, you met him 10 years ago, and yeah, you've been dating him off and on, but, like, this is almost like a new relationship since you've gotten back together. So the real timeline is I've been dating him for two and a half years. We moved in six months ago. And it actually is going pretty good because, like, there's no point in breaking up if you aren't going to kind of relieve both of yourselves from, from whatever happened. Ten years, you know, like, you guys were 20.

[C]

More simply, who you are today is not who you were when you were breaking up 10 years ago. You've grown, you're older, you have jobs, it's a different trip. And whatever the process is that you got here, you've gotten here. And two and a half years dating, moved in together, six months is going pretty smoothly except for this thing we'll talk about. So there's growth on both sides. And all those breakups and that path you've shared together informs this relationship and can be to some degree an actual healthy foundation of this relationship and also irrelevant to your situation right now.

[B]

And there was like, a whole two and a half years where you weren't even in each other's lives. So there's that element, and I think that version of that story, I think, you know, there's some grace, it takes

[C]

a little pressure off of it.

[B]

Yeah. And some perspective that maybe you're being, you're adding maybe a little too much pressure to this whole, like, timeline of feeling like he's dragging his feet and things like that. That on the flip side, it's been two and a half years. I, I listen, in 2020, I, I, you know, as someone who grew up, I'm, you know, older, so, you know,

[C]

not older today, but now that I'm here, you've suddenly gotten very young.

[B]

But I'm old enough to have still like, have dated, you know, when it wasn't like what modern dating is today, which is very non committal and, and just, you know, like freeform. Yeah. And I grew up as a very kind of hopeless romantic and I had great representation from my parents of whatever what I thought a relationship looked like. And so in my early 20s, I was very much like I wanted to settle down and have the whole thing right. And I've always wanted to be a dad, but like when I met my now wife, you know, and she would tell the story, I was like, I don't ever, I don't, I don't need to get married. I definitely still want to have kids, but I don't need to get married. And I, you know, call it jaded, call it, you know, I, you know, it just was like, yeah, there was a level of like, I don't know, I don't, I've had, I've dealt with enough of breakups to be like, we

[C]

don't need to make it legal.

[B]

I don't need to make it legal. And then obviously I'm now married and very happy that I am. And you know, like, there's, you know, there's no guarantees in life, but you find the right person. And I think more than anything is this like. And Mark obviously has more experience with marriage. But what I think separates, you know, the, you know, actually making that commitment, you know, you can be married and less happy than two people who decide to show up for each other. But for me, you know, Natalie and I are really building something together. We're building our lives together and there's that level of safety and security that our marriage brings us and having obviously a child together, you know, and the fact that we're building this life that is ours is very meaningful and as you know, and I get a lot of joy and satisfaction from that. And I never, I always know where I stand, you know, with Natalie. And that marriage brings a lot of security. And so I guess when you, after two and a half years and knowing each other for 10, I can imagine why it's very hard for him for you to hear things like, you know, because what's the thing that is going to change his mind after knowing this long. Also, more importantly, from a non negotiable standpoint, like it sounds like when it comes to your relationship goals, being a mom is in the equation.

[C]

I'm going to jump in here, please. All the things you said about building a life together, all that stuff and the family and all that stuff in Marriage, I get it. It and I love it, but you don't have to be married to do that. So the question I would ask you, first of all, without him, for us, why is marriage important to you? The paper, the ceremony, how. How do things change with that? I think I know the answer for me, but for everybody, it's different. So let's talk about it for you so we can define that and then we can talk about how to broach the subject with him.

[F]

Yeah, I feel like it just, like, represents lifelong commitment and that you're in it for the long haul and you're in each other's corner. And I feel like my parents had a really loving relationship. So I saw that he has, in these conversations, said, like, my family has a lot of divorce. I didn't really grow up with, like, a good, like, marriage, I guess, to inspire me. But he has been like, like, I can wear a ring if you want. Like, if you don't feel like I'm committed, but, like, so I don't watch. Just a ring.

[C]

I get it. But let's just get clear on this, that the thing that you think means forever marriage often doesn't. Even though there's paperwork, it's more difficult to break up. Right. But it's not a guarantee. So there's a little bit of a. To his point. You know, he wants to be in the now and stuff like that. The marriage represents some sort of insurance on your end that he's there for the long haul. So if he were to say to you, look, I don't want to get married, but I'm never leaving you, and when the time's right, I want to have kids with you, and I am your life partner, but I don't want to get married, that still would not feel so great to you, because you want to get married. Right. But what I'm saying to you is, just so that we're clear, getting married does not solve the things that the reason you want to get married, getting married doesn't give you that kind of,

[B]

like, the moving in doesn't, you know?

[C]

And yet on the other side of that, moving in also is a. Moving in is actually some sort of representation of commitment as well, even though there's no. You're not backed in legally. And the thing I always say is, first of all, ultimatum and timeline is not. Is not good for either of you. And I'll tell you why. For him, it feels like pressure for you. If the reason he asked you to marry him and then marries you is because you demanded it. It's not going to feel great on the other end. That's not how you want it.

[F]

Anyway, he has said, I'm not going to let you bully me into that decision.

[C]

There you go. And the more. And here's another horrible metaphor. I've been doing these all day, so just bear with me.

[B]

He's being humble. They're good.

[C]

When you. When you're training a dog, they tell you that if you keep the leash tight, the dog pulls. If you give the leash slack, the dog heals. So in this drumbeat of, I need to get married. I want to get married. When are we gonna get married? Timeline, timeline, timeline. He's pulling on the leash, a leash that he doesn't want to pull on because he's committed to you. He's into you. He loves you. You guys have broken up a lot of times, but he's been with you for two and a half years and has moved in with you, and that's going pretty well. Well, I want you to get married because you want to get married. I'm going to try to help you get to the point where that can be something that you both could possibly consider instead of him feeling bullied.

[F]

Yeah. And I feel like I didn't even bring up marriage, like, in the past year and a half because I kind of thought we were moving at the same page. Before I moved up to the Bay Area. I, like, we had a conversation, and I was like, okay, kind of laid a little timeline. Like, I'll live alone for a year, and then we can move in together. And as long as things are going well, like, I'll be ready for it whenever. So I just assumed we were kind of both still going towards that. So it had been like a year and a half since I brought that up. And then when I brought it up, he was just, like, a little caught off guard by it.

[C]

Okay.

[F]

Still.

[B]

Yeah. Because, like, you know, bullied is a strong word.

[C]

You don't have to own that. You're not bullying him, but he. He's going to put that on you as a deflection a little bit.

[B]

Yeah. But I don't think it's a little. A little much on his end.

[C]

Well, yeah, but, you know, boys act like boys a lot. So you're. You're bullying me. Right, That's. It's just childlike behavior.

[B]

Does he. Are you guys on the same page in terms of, like, life? Yeah, like, kids, life.

[C]

What's his take on having kids?

[F]

At some point, he says he could live with or without them.

[C]

Okay.

[F]

I think if I didn't come back into his life, it probably would have been a no.

[B]

Okay. I don't think that's something you should ignore.

[F]

But yeah, I think it's a big deal. He also doesn't have like the timeline at all. Relax.

[C]

Personally, while I understand the timeline of practical matters, often the timeline doesn't serve you. It hurts you. It just represents pressure that we got to tick the box by now. It's like doing your taxes. It sucks. You just got to do it. So that's not the way we want this. We want it to happen organically and mutually. But Nick is right that the conversation that needs to happen is let's think non linearly. Let's stay in the moment. I understand how you like to roll, tech guy, but is there a future where we got children? Because if there is no future where we have children, it's important to me and we have to. We should probably either solve this or cut our losses now, which is kind of rough, but that's a thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't think he's opposed to having children. I just don't think he wants any pressure of any kind. He wants to just be a boy for as long as he could be a boy. Right. And you're not going to force him to man up. It's not going to. You're not. The more you force him, the more he's going to revert. It's tricky.

[B]

It is tricky. There's no clear. There's clear, clear answer. It's just like what you just don't want is him to. What I don't want for you is for him. For his indifference now about children to turn into a. Notes. Yeah, I've changed my mind. I don't. You know, and who. And we don't really know. He's only 28 and I say only 28, but in 20, 26 terms it's like 18. Yeah.

[C]

For sure. Frontal lobe stuff. Yeah.

[B]

Like, Yeah. I mean. Or just like we just expect less of 20 year olds these days.

[C]

Yeah, my wife and I talk about all the time. We got married. I got married right before my 25th birthday because we just thought that's what you're supposed to do. Like, I love you, you love me. We've been dating for a couple years. We're supposed to get married now and in a couple years we'll have a kid. Right. And we look at it now going, we didn't even think about it. It wasn't even like we realized we Had a choice.

[B]

Well, we've gone the opposite end of the pendulum is now, especially like in San Francisco and the tech in business everyone's very career focused and career oriented. So as a 28 year old man, a lot of his peers are not thinking this way. And everyone's saying you have time, you have time, you have time. He no doubt is working. He's working with men my age who are on the heel getting a divorce and saying don't get married till you're

[C]

40 while they're making millions.

[B]

Yeah, whatever. He's hearing all this stuff so you just don't really know where he's going to land. But I think you really need to trust your gut. You've known this guy for 10 years and I think deep down you know the truth about what he ultimately wants and doesn't want. And know that right now he is probably, he's in a kind of transitional period of his life. And I think you should listen to whatever your gut tells you about his commitment to you and whether he'll be at a minimum open to giving. You know, he knows that you want. Right? He is, he's very clear on where you stand about kids someday. Right. Well, that's important. And, and, and you're just going to have to trust your gut on, on. At the end of the day, is he someone who wants to make some of your dreams come true? And, and does he, and does he get, does he get value out of, out of doing that for you? Like, you know, like Mark, Mark's going to cabaret show tonight. Not because he wants to but, but

[C]

as often the case is something I don't want to do that I'm probably gonna have a great time at. So I've learned enough in my 38 years of marriage that sometimes she forces me to do that I actually love doing.

[B]

And, and also like, I don't know, I can't speak for Mark, but like you can. Well, you don't necessarily like doing some of the things I do. Like I'm. My love language is very much acts of stuff service. I enjoy showing up for my partner. I enjoy doing those things. So. And I think a lot of men have that in them. They might have other love languages, but I think we are, you know, I think there's a level of masculinity that.

[C]

Can we take timeline and rings and ceremonies out of it for a second and talk about this, the state of your relationship with him and him with you? Let's just go with that. Let's, let's pretend Everything's going to be okay. Okay, let's pretend two years from now, we're going to get an invitation to your wedding. Okay, let's pretend. Do you feel, without the drumbeat of timeline, do you feel that this guy is committed to you right now?

[F]

Yeah, I don't know about forever.

[B]

What's the right now?

[C]

No, no, no, that doesn't count. You can't say I don't know about. Do you feel like he's committed to you or not committed to you? Not for how long, because how long it means he's not committed to you. You, like, are you his person? Are you his. Is. Is he your person or are you his person?

[F]

I don't know. I guess.

[C]

Okay, so that's the question to ask, because what. What conversation might help this is to take the pressure of the linear stuff out of it, timeline and paperwork, and say, the reason I keep pushing for marriage is because I love you and I want to be with you forever. And I want to know that you want to be with me forever. Do you want to be with me forever? And if his answer is, yeah, I want to be with you forever, then you got to be okay with that. Then you say, well, that commitment to each other works for me, and we'll figure everything else out, right? So what that does is put some. Some Neosporin on the wound, because right now, when you bring it up, you're not going to get anything you want out of that except for resistance. So the reframing of it is, you know, let's talk about the real stuff, and let me describe what that looks like in a relationship that's more than a few years in my relationship. I love my wife all the time. I like her pretty regularly. I lust for her is fluid. It's a lot, but not always right and vice versa. But the one thing that's a constant that time, and only time can teach you, is that I don't exist without her. I need her. Without her, I'm unsafe. I'm unwell. I will be not healthy. Okay? And it's not romantic. It's like I went to the doctor, and the doctor says, we got to take a look at this. And I'm worried. And there's only one phone call that makes me not feel worried. It's her. Okay, so the. The definition for you is, are you guys that for each other right now, or will you be that for each other? Because then, marriage or not, it doesn't matter, because needing one another, the definition is cease to exist without right it's not a conditional relationship, whether you like it or not. And if you guys have become that for each other, then the natural course of things is going to put a ring on it. It's going to have a baby. Things are going to happen the way they're supposed to happen. But the question really is, are you each other's person? Do you have that level of, when are you each other's North Star?

[F]

I feel like he is such an, like, independent person that his response would be like, I don't want to have to rely on anyone.

[C]

Like, well, that's.

[B]

If that's true, that's. That's telling. Because to Mark, I mean, that's. By the way, that was all really good stuff.

[C]

Thank you. Taking years to figure out.

[B]

But I think you should really take heed to what Mark said because I feel like it's safe to say that your biggest concern is what you don't want to be is a stopgap in his life. You don't want to serve a temporary purpose for him. Because at this point, you guys are both old enough that you deserve some clarity about what both of you want. Because if ultimately he's just like, yeah, I don't know, I'm going to want something different when I'm 33. And that different probably doesn't include you. You're going to want to make different choices. You would rather know now than later. And if you are going to be living together and he knows what your relationship goals are and what your hopes are, it would be kind of selfish. You deserve some clarity and some honesty about that. And it's a bit of a cop out for him to play the. Also, if that's true that he doesn't want to rely on anyone, then it's not true.

[C]

He just doesn't know yet. I'm sorry to interrupt.

[B]

No, that's okay.

[C]

But the line is saying, yeah, I don't want to have to rely on somebody. Okay. And the answer to that is you don't have to rely on someone. You get to be supported by someone.

[F]

He has said he doesn't feel fully supported by me.

[C]

Okay.

[F]

Because I think, like, when it comes to, like, work, it's like I might not have the same passions as him. Like, I'm not as excited about all this stuff like him. And I don't. I don't know, I feel like, like I said before, like, the work schedules are hard, but I feel like overall I try to be supportive, but I guess I don't show it in the same way he would like.

[C]

Well, this is all communication stuff because here's. Here's what we want to communicate with each other. I may not share your passions. You might come home talking about coding issues that I don't give a about. Right. But what I am committed to is being your partner to help you be the best version of you. That's why we're in relationship. We don't need it unless it's going to enhance. Right? So while I may not be so into the weeds of what you're doing on a day to day basis because it's not my jam on this planet, no one is a bigger supporter of your success than I'm going to be for the rest of your life. And he needs to be that for you or gets to be that for you. So that conversation looks like, hey, I'm telling you right now, I'm taking marriage off the table. I don't think that's relevant to where we are today. But what I want to let you know is how I feel about you, my commitment to how ride or die I am for you. And don't even make it conditional. Not this is how ride or die I am for you. So now you tell me some, right? Just, I need to let you know that I'm your person. I got you even when it's not pretty. I got you. If you become the guy who's sick. And I was going to be gross, but you know when you're at the point where you're shitting the bed, I'm cleaning it up. I'm sorry, but that's what marriage looks like. Okay? And this is like what we've talked about before, Nick. This is called you being vulnerable first. You taking the chance of sharing your truth before that may give him an opening, it may not. And then you can decide. But marriage is not the ring in the title. Marriage is the stuff I'm telling you. Life is doable alone, but much easier with a partner. Right? So, I mean, I've kind of lost my way in that. But I think you're hearing what I'm saying a little bit, is that you get to say to him, just so you're clear, here's where I'm at with you. I don't care about the ring. I do care about the ring. It matters to me. I was a little girl. I want to walk down the aisle. I want to fail. I want to know. But I know that that doesn't mean safety and commitment. That's just something I want traditionally. But let me let you know where I'm at. Commitment to you, whether you are or not. I am all 100% in to whatever your success can be for us.

[B]

I imagine to Mark's point too, and is maybe your biggest struggle is. It sounds like it's unclear to you what is his purpose? What is his North Star if he doesn't want to get married, if he doesn't want to have kids. Where do you fit in that equation? You know, back to like, you mean I don't. You'd have to ask Nally, but when I was telling her I don't really need to get married, I was still telling her, I still want to find a connection with someone and I still want to have kids with that person. It was more the.

[C]

You don't want to have success if there's not somebody to share it with.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You know, and I wanted that. And you. It's like every time we ask these questions that you're like, honestly, I don't really know. He kind of says a lot of things that cut pretty deep.

[C]

But that's also very real because he probably hasn't had to think about it like that. So it's really easy for men especially to go, I'm not worried about that today. I'm just like, I'm going to work and then I come home and then we can go to the movies and that's cool. And maybe, you know, all of this is working. I don't need to talk about it. But I'll tell you something. If some goes down on his side of the fence and he gets scared, he's going to want to talk about it. He's going to be the one saying, can I need you.

[B]

Well, back to when you guys rekindled at the wedding that, you know, that version of him that was like, I've been working on my. Almost him trying. He was pitching.

[C]

He was convincing you.

[B]

He's pitching you.

[C]

Yeah, pitching.

[B]

And you got to find a way to connect with that person where he wants to, you know, because for whatever reason, to Mark's point, he's resisting, you know, you. And so he is really kind of letting. He's setting a boundary because for whatever reason he is. He's uncomfortable and he doesn't feel the need to. He doesn't feel the need to try to. I don't make you stay or whatever it is. But I love him to channel that version of him that. That, to Mark's point, needed you.

[C]

Well, the thing is that thing he's projecting doesn't mean he doesn't feel what I'm saying. He just isn't in touch with it yet. He hasn't had life scare the shit out of him enough to go, I need her. Right? So he's cruising along at 28 years old. Work is good, life is good. I'm physically healthy. At 28, I thought I was never going to die. You understand? At 28 years old, I'm invincible, right? I can get up and smoke a pack of cigarettes and run a 10K and it's I'm cool the next day, right? Life has to present itself. That is much more dire. Life is much more dangerous than we realize at 28 years old. For you to get the impact of why I need to have someone there for me.

[F]

I feel like he's almost like he wants, but he can't have sometimes.

[B]

Well, that's pretty typical.

[C]

Okay, but again, that doesn't.

[F]

Like now I'm in his life every day.

[E]

So.

[C]

Yes, but that doesn't mean he doesn't really know that you're the one. He's just is kind of taking it for granted. Not in a purposeful way, but in an uninformed way. It hasn't gotten dire. He's gone from the dude who's dating people, that's high school, college, to a dude who's living with a girl which is age appropriate and kind of his friends are doing. And that's cool, but he hasn't thought about. And there's no way for him. You need an old guy to tell you. There's no way for you to know how difficult the waters are ahead. And that's why, look, now I'm going to get in the weeds. You have to remember that marriage, the institution of marriage was never romantic. It was a business deal. It was to make two tribes come together so we can survive the winter. Do you understand? And it was pre arranged. You'll fall in love later because you haven't had sex yet. So we're going to make you guys get married. You're going to have sex. It's going to blow your mind because you've never had it. That'll be love. You'll figure out love because life will present in front of you that you'll have to manage together. And that's another kind of love you've yet to discover. That's not romantic that I'm speaking to. But there's no way in modern times for you to get that. That right. So when life is going the way it is for him, there's no way for him to quantify how important you are to him. Women, on the other hand, kind of get it a little bit easier because women have had to be more intuitive because men have been so predatory that women have to pay attention more. Right. Historically speaking. So he. He just doesn't know how to go there yet. Possibly. You get to teach them.

[F]

Yeah.

[B]

It's a tough one. Right? I mean, this is really difficult. Yeah. And I guess I. I still stand by, like, I just listen to your gut, you know. You know, take the time to, you know, without like asking your friends and, and having them project their. Onto you or, or listen to outside voices. Just really ask yourself, like, how you. Your confidence level of where you stand with him. Him, you know, and, and do you feel like he needs you? Whether he does a good job of showing that or not, whether he's even

[C]

aware of it yet. Yeah. But also, you have to also reevaluate how important these timeline things are to you. They're not insignificant. The marriage one can be. The children one has an actual timeline to it. So you have to. You're going to have to define that. That's a hill you're going to have to die on to some degree. But not today. It doesn't have to happen today.

[B]

And while I agree with everything Mark's saying from, like, he's giving your guy a lot of grace and it's all fair and not untrue, I do think you deserve to know where you stand with him. And I think he's being a little immature. Immature and difficult, Defiant, stubborn, whatever you want to call it. And he is certainly old enough to know that if he wants to live with his girlfriend and be in a committed relationship, that you deserve not to live in limbo. And some of the times he says things that if you took literally and didn't give him the grace that's Mark is offering, then how could he possibly expect you to be okay with the idea that he might wake up when he's 32 and be like, I don't want any of this anymore. Bye.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's. And that would be really shitty for him to do. And you deserve to know that. He. He understands that.

[C]

That's why I'm saying the conversation is more about soulmate than marriage. If you take the. The ring and stuff out of it, there's a possibility he might get to a authentic conversation about it. Right. He's still in that. That gap between seasoned, full, fully developed man and fraternity boy. There's still that gap there where I just want to live for today. You know, it's a. It's a yolo kind of vibe right now to.

[F]

To use an old term, last lastly spoke. I guess he was just like, I right now don't know. So you should make the best decision for yourself with that information.

[B]

That's tough. He is daring me. It's almost like he's daring.

[F]

Illusion of choice.

[B]

Yeah, the illusion of choice.

[C]

Yeah. Well, that's a. That's a deflection that often happens with. With a little bit of narcissism, but it's definitely a man thing where what we do is we say we're cool. You got to make a choice. That's how. That's how cowards break up. Cowards act out in a way that you then have to break up with them and go, I don't know why she left.

[B]

Yeah, that's a. That's definitely a guy thing.

[C]

Right? You know what I'm talking about. It happens.

[B]

Every guy would rather be dumped than. Than to be the bumper.

[C]

And so they.

[B]

And this be the bad. Yeah, but that. That's a shitty thing for him to say. And he's daring you to make a decision. And also, again, if you took him literally, he's basically what he's saying, whether he means it or not, is that I don't care whatever you want. And he probably does care more than he leads on, but it's still very unfair for him to communicate that to you. And you shouldn't be in a position to explain to yourself why your boyfriend cares about you, even though he says.

[C]

And then you're walking on an eggshells. Now he's making you walk on eggshells around it. I can't talk about this. I can't talk about that. And I've even. I'm going to contradict what I'm saying that. I'm saying you can't bring up marriage because it pushes him away and stuff like that. I'm just letting you know that that's what happens. You get to bring it up. Right. I'm just letting you know his reaction is going to be, you know, whatever. What I suggest you do is communicate where you're at, not with titles of marriage and rings and stuff like that. And let him know that if he's where he's communicated and we got a problem.

[B]

You seem like you're managing this relationship by himself, by yourself.

[C]

On his terms.

[B]

On his terms. And. And this is someone who, I will say, who wants to have kids someday. He is again, who knows? He's young, but he is giving you the energy that you're going to have to parent buyers parenting her out. And like, he's.

[C]

Yes, I'll give you a kid, but you got to raise it.

[B]

Yeah, I would be very careful about that. He's also. He's also. No, he also knows what it's like to lose you and get you back.

[C]

Well, that. That's where you get to the truth about him. Because when he lost you, he was on his knees telling you how he's changed and gone to therapy and. Da, da, da, da Speaking.

[B]

Yeah, that. To that degree, I was. You know, he's done therapy, so he's comfortable with that idea. If you suggested couples therapy as a way to just get on the same page and better communicate, how do you think he would receive it, if you haven't already?

[F]

I have suggested it. He said he would look into. But I don't think he's actually done anything.

[B]

I mean, if you want to go to couples therapy, you should look into it, schedule it and be like, we

[C]

have a. I'll show up on Tuesday.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then I'll defend my position through the whole session and then make you pay for it.

[F]

Okay, well.

[B]

But at least might give you some answers.

[C]

No, no. It's the right thing to do is to talk about it. I think what we're witnessing here is he's in that area between real life and college life in his head. Okay. He's in that area of the things that turn him on is the paycheck and the work and I got a girlfriend and we're living together. That's cool. We're like, playing house. That's cool. But whatever. But it's nothing's dire. Right. He's still in that invincible child place. And I can't tell you how to get him. The clarity of that need thing I was talking about, you grow into that at you're there. Okay. I can't tell you how to get him there. What I can tell you is that you get to communicate where you're at and then detach from his response. Loving detachment is a big thing that we don't often do because in that detachment is going to have him have a moment of what if I lose her? That either is going to be like, whatever, and then you've got an answer or, oh, I better step up without an ultimatum. It's not an ultimatum.

[E]

Them.

[C]

Right. That's not what we want. What it is is, here's where I'm at, bro. Right. And there's no Question. I'm gonna find somebody to meet me. Where I'm at, I think it's you. I'm not sure.

[F]

Yeah.

[C]

As opposed to you going, I'm sure. I hope you're sure. Let me convince you to be sure.

[F]

I feel like that's also what kind of keeps me around a little is like we broken up and I was dating other people and I feel like I just, just was still, like he was still in the back of my mind for like years.

[C]

So, like, you weren't really dating other people. You're just marking time because you were in love with him.

[F]

I guess.

[B]

I mean, if you do end up, if this doesn't go the way you want, I just, I would challenge yourself to close that chapter because that some, you know, sometimes we just don't let people go. We choose not to. You know, it's. We don't get the closure we say we want. But again, that closure usually just comes from just accepting that, you know, there is love there. You know, you care about him, you have history. But sometimes that's not enough. And accepting that and knowing that there's something else better for you, you know, is helpful to realize. But you have to be the one who comes to that conclusion. And I will say, if you do choose to go a different direction, I would just like, you know, you've pat yourself on the back because you definitely have tried with this guy and he's giving you enough of examples to show you that he does. Likes to do things on his terms.

[F]

Yes, very much.

[B]

And at some point you have to just accept that this is who he is today.

[F]

Yeah.

[C]

Who he is today.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because that. Doing things on his own terms for a child's mind, that. What I'm talking about is that less than fully developed frontal lobe kind of vibe is people do things on their own terms for as long as they're allowed to do things on their own term. When the person we're in relationship with stands on their own two feet to say, okay, here's, here's my. Here's the framing of the relationship. Now you can eat. I always say it this way. Frame the relationship without casting the participants. In other words, here's my love relationship. Okay, right now you seem to be occupying that space, but it may not be you, but here's what's going to be. It's going to be this. Are you down? If not, I might be opening a casting call. Understand? But it's for you to define what you want is for you to get what you want. And Also, be realistic about how you go about it, that that little timeline thing may not be serving you as much as you think it is. Because what that sometimes forces women to do is marry somebody that's a C plus to meet the timeline. Right. And life is just messier than that. But redefining and reframing the situation so it's not casual and you walking on eggshells going, well, I want to get married, but you don't want to get married, but he seems cool. School and we're good. That's not serving you either. So, you know, communicate it. See where he's at, and then either he's out the door or you're out the door or it works out.

[F]

That time we had a conversation, I told him to search a little and see if he could actually see marriage even being an option for him in general.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

[F]

So that's kind of where we're at.

[B]

I think you need to make a decision and trust that decision. And he's kind of. To whatever degree he's daring you to make a tough decision, you might have to make it right.

[C]

It's important, though, that when you communicate this, and I think it's important that you communicate it, you get to say, look, I want to get married, but let me explain why. Let me explain why it's important to me, and I want to have kids. And let me explain why and when and why that's important to me so that regardless of your decision, you're clear of why this is. I'm not trying to trap you. I'm not trying to have insurances by you. I'm not trying to get half your money. I'm not, you know, not. I don't. I don't. Your genetics, isn't it? Right. I just need to let you know, as you have things that are important to you, these are what's important to me. So if it works out, great. If not, I'm sure I'm going to find somebody that's going to work out with, because I'm awesome.

[B]

I hope this was helpful. We do have to get going, but please keep us updated on where things land. But trust your gut again. You've known that, you've known this guy for a long time now, and he's giving you some very confusing signals. But. But ultimately, I think you're gonna. You're gonna have to choose the life you want, and I think you need to take control of. Of your relationship. You're not just a bystander. He's not calling all the shots. You have some agency in this relationship. You just might need to exercise it. So.

[C]

Well said.

[B]

All right.

[C]

I agree with you.

[F]

Yes.

[B]

All right. Take care. Keep us posted.

[F]

All right.

[E]

Thank you.

[F]

I will. Thank you. Bye Bye Bye.

[B]

Marcus has been a ton of fun, man.

[C]

It has been a lot. You know, you did a great job on. Thank you for including me. I had fun.

[B]

You're very good at this. It's a lot of fun. I imagine this audience listening will want you to come back and do this. So if you're ever down, let me know.

[C]

I'm always down. Give me a call and I'm around the corner.

[E]

All right.

[B]

And if you guys have any relationship problems that you want us to answer or, or me or Mark or send those questions, ask nick@theviolet files.com we'll see you tomorrow. Bye Bye. Hey guys, if you love what Everyone

[C]

Deserves to be connected T Mobile and US Cellular are joining forces. Our networks are coming together bringing more T Mobile coverage all over the country. Switch to T Mobile and save up to 20% versus Verizon by getting built in benefits they leave out. Check the math@t mobile.com Switch and now T Mobile is available in a US cellular store near you. Bigger network the combination of T Mobile and US Cellular's network footprints will enhance the T Mobile network's coverage savings versus comparable Verizon plans plus the costs of options, benefits, plan features and taxes and fees vary. Savings with three plus lines include third free line free via monthly bill credits credit stop if you cancel any lines. Qualifying credit required.

[B]

Save on family essentials at Safeway and Albertsons this week at Safeway and Albertsons Signature select chicken dress, drumsticks, thighs or leg quarters. Value packs or buy one get one free equal or lesser value member price and sweet red, green or black seedless grapes are $1.99 per pound member price plus selected varieties of lucerne milk or chocolate milk. Half gallons are $1.27 each. Limit to member price with digital coupon. Hurry in. These deals won't last. Visit Safeway or albertsons.com for more deals and ways to save.