E1122 - Blake & Justin Settle, Jessi's Leaked DM's w/ Emily D Bake, Tom Schwartz Talks SH, Valley And Love!

Summary

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The Viall Files – E1122: Blake & Justin Settle, Jessi's Leaked DMs, Emily D. Baker, Tom Schwartz on Valley & Love

Date: May 6, 2026
Host: Nick Viall
Co-Hosts: Natalie Joy, The Household
Guests: Emily D. Baker (legal analyst), Tom Schwartz (The Valley)

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This Reality Recap episode dives into a huge slate of current pop culture, legal drama, and reality TV developments. The show opens by discussing the evolving stature of reality TV stars in the mainstream, pivots to a detailed legal analysis with Emily D. Baker on the headline-making Blake Lively vs. Justin Baldoni settlement, breaks down the latest “MomTok” fallout with leaked voice memos, and ends with an insightful (and surprisingly heartwarming) interview with Tom Schwartz from The Valley. Throughout, the conversation maintains its trademark mix of wit, candor, and pop culture savvy.

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REALITY TV STARS AT THE MET GALA & POP CULTURE MAINSTREAM (00:50 – 13:20)

• Main Theme: Increasing legitimacy and crossover of reality TV personalities into traditional celebrity events like the Met Gala, anchored by the Vulture magazine feature on reality stars.

• Discussion Points:

  • The “Vulture” feature legitimizing reality stars (00:50–02:51)
  • Reality TV stars at the Met Gala: Brauwyn, Sierra Miller, and the drama with Alandria’s alleged uninviting (02:51–04:48)
  • Perceived difference in public reactions: reality TV stars vs. influencers at these events (04:06–04:21)
  • Nick’s personal reflections on the “cheekiness” and vulnerability expected of reality personalities (05:06–09:55)
  • Traditional celebrities adapting to a new era of parasocial relationships and openness (09:55–11:35)
  • Fun Met Gala tradition trivia—no garlic/onion, Anna Wintour’s greeting, etc. (11:35–13:24)

• Notable Quotes:

  • "It's fun to, like—it’s nice not to always be the butt of the joke." – Nick (02:01)
  • “We know this is typically your whatever, trash TV... But it's awesome, and people love it. And these people are very talented at what they do.” – Natalie (09:04)

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THE BLAKE LIVELY V. JUSTIN BALDONI LAWSUIT SETTLEMENT: LEGAL BREAKDOWN w/ EMILY D. BAKER (20:31 – 44:52)

Segment starts:
[20:30] Nick welcomes back Emily D. Baker ("unofficial legal correspondent").

What Happened?

• Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni, whose suit about harassment and professional retaliation had been closely watched, abruptly announced a surprising settlement days before trial.

Key Topics & Takeaways:

• Legal Reason Behind Settlement (22:02–24:55):

  • Summary judgment order from the judge exposed weaknesses/risks to both sides.
  • “The deadline spurred action”—settling days before expensive, public trial.
  • Most likely outcome: mutual walk-away, possibly no money exchanged, with strong NDAs.

• Money Motivation & Plaintiff Fatigue (31:27–33:52):

  • Neither side seemed heavily motivated by money—Emily and the hosts agree.
  • Emily explains plaintiff (and defendant) fatigue: "It's one thing to start a case… a year later, it just becomes a toll on your overall well-being, your mental health, your family." (32:21)

• Gag Orders, NDAs, and Leaks (37:25–40:10):

  • Enforcement is handled behind the scenes; leaks can risk breach-of-contract lawsuits but are messy in the age of mass digital discovery.

• Lawyers Always Win

  • “The lawyers absolutely won. I said at the beginning of this case, I'm like, the lawyers are going to win, everyone else is going to lose because it's so messy.” – Emily (40:59)

• Jury Selection Challenges (43:53):

  • Reality stars’ lawsuits rope in generational divides and social media naiveté: “You get a younger audience… 'yeah, I figure that's what happens on social media.' You get a slightly older audience and they're like, 'wait, people are doing what?'” – Emily (44:23)

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MOMTOK/MORMON WIVES DRAMA & LEAKED AUDIO FALLOUT (44:52 – 59:01)

• Backdrop: The MomTok circle reels after TMZ leaks a voice note from Jesse to Dakota, with Dakota allegedly feeding the tabloid, further fueling the drama.

• Main Points:

  • Jesse's voice memo context: she warned about the leak and context to Taylor, exposing how Dakota’s strategy is about controlling the narrative, not the truth (45:32–48:46)
  • Dakota's implausible denials and efforts to paint himself as a "helpless bystander" roundly mocked ("How is he involved? ...As if we're supposed to believe that." – Nick, 47:14)
  • Legal status: Both Taylor and Dakota have 3-year mutual protective/no-contact orders, custody/parenting litigation ongoing (51:54–53:51)
  • Public accountability: Taylor maintains fan support by being open, while Dakota continues to undermine his credibility by deflecting and leaking (53:51–55:02)
  • The judge’s harsh words for both, especially Dakota being calculating and Taylor losing control, “no one is without blame” (55:02)

• Memorable Quotes:

  • “It's the Internet that's going to be scouring everything they do on social being like, does that violate the protective order?” – Emily (55:02)
  • “I think as long as Taylor's a part of the show, Mom Talk survives.” – Nick (64:27)

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MOMTOK/“MORMON WIVES” SHOW FUTURE & CAST CHANGES (63:45–68:25)

• Whitney won’t return to filming; speculation about who will carry the show if Taylor Frankie Paul leaves.
• “Healing journeys are important”—hope for lighter, more supportive TV.
• Questions about bringing in new cast members and audience reactions.

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TOM SCHWARTZ ON LIFE AFTER VANDERPUMP, THE VALLEY, & NEW LOVE (68:38 – 106:27)

Tom Schwartz Interview Highlights

On Personal Evolution & The Valley ([68:38–83:43])

• Tom reflects on his family (triplets!), turning inward post-restaurant closure, and finding his footing after major career/life changes.
  • “I was a happy shell of myself. I was going through the motions… but quietly behind the scenes, I was, like, starting to fall in love…” – Tom (74:57)
• He openly discusses falling in love with Kiana (aka “Kiki”) and shares how this new relationship has shifted his outlook and energy.

On Friendship Fallout, Jax, and Cast Dynamics ([83:43–86:13])

• Describes how Jax’s exit (and new sobriety) has changed the rhythm of The Valley: “The apex predator is gone and no one knows what to do.” (84:33)
• Tom is candid about how the group must learn to generate drama/momentum without defaulting to “the villain.”

Real-Life Divorce: Jesse & Michelle’s Storyline ([85:26–86:46])

• Tom and Nick express empathy for parents divorcing on TV and the complex dynamics of new partners parenting your child.

Summer House x The Valley x Scandoval: Comparative Analysis ([87:24–97:59])

• Tom reacts to speculation he "jinxed" the Summer House cast, and discusses West Wilson’s behavior with candor, seeing shades of his own younger self.
  • “Do you feel like West Wilson has a little bit of Thomas Schwartz in him of, I'll say, 10 years ago?” – Nick (88:41)
  • “I think in trying to, like, be sweet, he unintentionally… makes it so much worse...” – Tom (96:29)

Reality TV, Self-Reflection & Audience Perception ([101:13–106:16])

• Honest talk about the challenges of TV blending into real life, staying authentic, and not “self-producing.”
  • “No one wants to watch someone who's overly self aware. That's no fun.” – Tom (92:38)
• Tom supports the lighter, “healing” tone of the current Valley season: “It’s not boring, it’s nuanced, layered, and full of growth.”
• Looks forward to viewers seeing him “falling in love in real time… starting my whole life anew” (103:37)

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MEMORABLE MOMENTS & QUOTES

• “In a sea of green flags, I'm the only red flag.” – Tom Schwartz (75:39)
• “The lawyers absolutely won. I said at the beginning of this case, I'm like, the lawyers are going to win, everyone else is going to lose because it's so messy.” – Emily D. Baker (40:59)
• “I think as long as Taylor's a part of the show, Mom Talk survives.” – Nick Viall (64:27)
• “It's one thing to start a case… a year later, it just becomes a toll on your overall well-being, your mental health, your family.” – Emily D. Baker on "plaintiff fatigue" (32:21)

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TIMESTAMPS OF IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• Reality TV ascends to Met Gala / Vulture mainstream: 00:50–13:20
• Blake Lively v Justin Baldoni Settlement with Emily D. Baker: 20:31–44:52
• MomTok/Mormon Wives DMs and legal aftermath: 44:52–59:01
• MomTok show resilience/future of Mormon Wives: 63:45–68:25
• Tom Schwartz (full interview): 68:38–106:27

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FINAL NOTES

The episode is a tour de force for pop culture obsessives and reality TV fans alike—offering legal analysis, behind-the-scenes reality insight, and genuine emotional transparency from Tom Schwartz. The tone is lively, self-aware, and always willing to go deeper than pure headline commentary.

For more recaps, interviews, and unfiltered updates, tune in to The Viall Files Reality Recap edition every week!

Transcript

[Nick Viall]

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[Emily D. Baker]

I'm Kiana and I leveled up my business with Shopify. Once I figured out that Shopify was a thing, I never turned back. I can create a site with my eyes closed. Shopify thinks ahead, ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything. Every day I'm thinking about some other new business, but Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like, I can't stop. I'm addicted.

[Tom Schwartz]

Start your free [e-mail].

[Nick Viall]

you're crazy. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back back to another exciting episode of the Vile Files reality recap edition on a Wednesday. How do you do? We got a great episode for you. A lot going on in the world of, well, in our world. Pop culture.

[Natalie]

The world of pop culture.

[Nick Viall]

Reality TV worlds are colliding. Reality TV stars are stars, as evident by Vulture magazine or more importantly, the Met Gala.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

On the same day, Vulture magazine highlighted a bunch of. Well, it really was just a focus on reality TV stars talking about, like, how, like, it used to be, like, people were talking about all those HBO cinema shows and that would be the water cooler talk. And now it's really just your favorite rally. TV stars and shows are really entering the zeitgeist of real celebrity, which is, you know, it's cool. Like, I've been in this space for, I don't know, a long time. And, like, honestly, it's fun to, like, it's nice not to always be the butt of the joke.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And I get it is nice to, you know, get a little credibility in the space that we operate so much. But on the same day that the release of that Vulture piece, which. Go check it out. I was very flattered to be included in a really great cast. But I think more than just the people recognize, like, obviously Andy Cohen and Kathy Hilton, Lindsey Hubbard, Jesse Draper, a really, just. I think it was really about a celebration of all reality TV stars. And honestly, like, it almost seems silly to say the work they put in, but just really the vulnerability and just like really sacrificing their lives in some ways, some more than others. But on the same day, we have the Met Gala, and I feel like I don't know, maybe the previous years, but we had Sierra Miller, Red Brawen there. Any other. I mean, that's two. I mean two more than I feel like any other. Was Ariana Maddox there?

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

No. Did you see also that allegedly Alandria was invited to the Met Gala and

[Nick Viall]

then wait, I thought she was going.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

And then uninvited, like day of, like, she. Well, the makeup artist like posted a whole thing being like we prepped all of this stuff but like nothing happened and she wasn't there. So like speculation is that she was uninvited or that no, like she was done dirty is the speculation.

[Natalie]

I do, I do know there are a lot of people who chose not to go to the Met Gala this

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

year, but she wouldn't, that wouldn't have

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

been like the makeup artist and everybody was there already.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, like, it's someone is someone who is. I'm not your like, typical Met Gala fan, so to speak, but ever since I became aware of its existence, and that was a long time ago as a reality TV star and you see these like major celebrities go to this like, what seems to be this really cool party. I don't know if it's actually cool, but like, it feels, feels cool. It seems cool.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

Exclusive.

[Nick Viall]

Exclusive. And as someone in my position, it's hard not to be like, I wonder if I could ever like get invited to something like this. You know, it seems it always felt like something unobtainable. Yeah. For someone in my shoes. And it probably still is, quite frankly for someone for me. But people in our space, it's become like it's a realistic opportunity which is, I think really fascinating and cool.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

Well, you know what's interesting is when influencers were invited to the Met Gala a la James Charles, Liza Koshy, like the. They got a lot of heat because they're like, why are influencers here pioneers? But then like the reality TV stars that are there, nobody's questioning it. They're just like, they've elevated past.

[Nick Viall]

Well, yeah, because I think again, I think those, those influencers call, you know, we're all part of the same space. Influencers, TV stars. It's kind of like this kind of lower tier celebrity of like someone call us talentless.

[Natalie]

Well, it's like higher, high and low art, whatever, whatever, you know.

[Nick Viall]

But it's. I think it's kind of cool and fascinating to have Brawen and Sierra Miller there and I. The Alandria is found like, we don't

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

know much about it. It was all. It's all coming through the makeup artist.

[Nick Viall]

If I could pick one reality TV star that would seamlessly fit into that crowd would be Orlandia.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

I mean, she has been so, like, she's been diving headfirst into all of this fashion stuff.

[Natalie]

And she's so good at it.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

And she's so good at it. It makes complete sense for her to be there.

[Nick Viall]

And unlike most reality TV stars who feel like we have to lead with our message, our vulnerability, our, like, kind of. We almost have to really kind of give of ourselves. Orlandria has done it in more of a traditional celebrity path where it's just more like the mystery of her.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Well, Nick Van Steenberg, who was, I guess still dating Alandria. I don't know anyways, but he was part of the Vulture piece. The vulture piece. And kind of came out being like, hey, I flew to New York. I, like stood there half undressed, which. Why were a lot of y' all undressed?

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, people got mad that I had my shoes off.

[Natalie]

I was going to ask about the dogs being out.

[Nick Viall]

Honestly, it's funny about that reaction. It very. It was. It felt very like, no, I'm still a reality TV star. Because, like, the way. The way reality TV stars get blamed for shit, that's not like, they're like, yeah, fine, fudge it, I'll do it right, you know.

[Natalie]

Oh, I didn't think it was your choice to go in there without shoes.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, sure.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

I thought it was cute. That was like yours.

[Natalie]

It was just.

[Nick Viall]

And then people like, like, like speaking to me as if I was. I, like, I walked in without shoes and said, I'm not wearing shoes today. You.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

It's because they also saw yours and Lindsay Hubbard's where she was in a full dress and didn't see the rest of the photos where the whole point in the theme was like, undressed. Hollywood esque.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Like, is that what it was?

[Nick Viall]

It's like. But it was like there was no tie and it was kind of half unbuttoned. And it was like, do you want to go no shirt? I was like, I'm not. No shirt shape kind of.

[Natalie]

And then they were like, they're like,

[Nick Viall]

well, I was like, your shoes off. And I was like, my wiki feet, I got like, I'm. I'm like a 4.9. So I was like, yeah, I'm still in good feet shape.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Well, Nick came out and basically gave this statement. Do we have it, Justin?

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

Yeah. Well, so in his Vulture article, he basically said, smile and shake my hand. And then write some shit like that. Question mark. That's what he said in response to it. And like the points that stood out was it was the wording that they use in certain parts of his article where they said the king of those clips was Nick Van Steenberg, the baffled mind behind the inescapable Mommy Mamacita meme, stemming from his utter inability to process the idea that his co star Hooded Mustafa is the mother of a child. There was another part where it basically said Van Steenberg is now pursuing that the most trite and true reality side Hustle DJ for hire. Like they were just using a lot of different words. By the middle of the season, the fandom had coalesced around painting him with co star Alandra. Never mind that they didn't seem to more than friendly colleagues at first. Like they're just using a lot of different words that are like, well, you

[Nick Viall]

know what's funny though, critical, when they, when they wrote about me, they reminded me and the audience that some people over the years and throughout my life have viewed me at times as condescending.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Oh,

[Nick Viall]

fair. Working on it, obviously, always trying to be like self aware of myself. But I also find it funny because when I read these pieces, even about myself or my peers, the people who watch or listen, it's like I've never read anything about myself that didn't felt condescending towards me. Where it's as always, like, you know, you like them but you hate them.

[Natalie]

It's just like, yeah, well, it's also you're reading it from a writer who's, you know, trying to bring in multiple different aspects about like a person and has an angle not in like a good or bad way.

[Nick Viall]

And when you're interviewed by your more traditional journalists, they're having this kind of journalistic approach where it's just like trying to figure us out. It's David Attenborough not necessarily wanting to give us the benefit of the doubt, but kind of reluctantly doing it. So it's like, yeah, reading that stuff about Nick, it's like there's always like a dig with every compliment sometimes. But again, listen, we're not quite there yet. It's still a process. We are still working to be accepted.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

I think it's the cheekiness is the way to put it. I think he was caught off like, oh well, that's the way he wrote it.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, yeah, I feel like, okay, I guess, like, sure.

[Natalie]

I want to read what you guys think about this because I feel like the, the beauty of reality TV stars Kind of entering into mainstream pop culture in this way is that with a lot of celebrities there is this aspect of everything needs to be taken seriously. Everything is very like pristine prestige. And then with. Which is kind of like the high, low art, whatever. Like it's this high art. But then like the reality is it's all the same and it's all entertainment and so. And fun stuff is fun stuff. So when you get reality TV stars in here, there's this kind of like cheekiness to. Because it's this self aware aspect of the way you're writing. And it's like, we know this is typically your whatever, trash TV quote, unquote. But it's awesome and people love it. And these people are very talented at what they do. So it creates this like, interesting kind of.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, we have a long way to go. Because again, like the way Val. The way like influencers and reality TV stars are recognized is again, through that vulnerability. And like, through that vulnerability. I think fans see that as like an open door to critique, criticize, judge. And which is interesting because I think you're more traditional celebrities. Like, for example, we have Jay Ellis on the show that was on yesterday. A fascinating guy, very talented actor. He's on Running Point. He's in a lot of great stuff. It's all her fault. Top Gun too. And, you know, coming Jay coming in here again. Like, sometimes when we have someone like Jay on, it's always like, man, I wonder how much he wants to open up. Does he just want to talk about the. His. His project? You know, and it's always like, I'm always like unsure. But I do think people like Jay or other more traditional celebrities are now seeing that, like for people to kind of get to know you and follow your career. You do, you know, the. You. You have to open up. You have to like, talk about like, you have to endear yourself like the Paris to the audience. Audience. Because that parasocial relationship matters more than it did like 20 years ago. You could be an actor, you know, a celebrity. You could show up, do your press tours in between your movie that you do once or twice a year. They would only see that. They'd only see these clips and you would only just be that mystery. And that. That is very difficult, I think in the grand scheme of things for most celebrities to be recognized. And now what does celebrity mean? There's. Everything is niche, you know, and things like that. So you're now seeing a lot of more traditional celebrities try to, when they're doing press, like be willing to open up, doing more podcasts, talking about things in their lives, their concerns, parenthood, you know, insecurities and things like that. So it's all kind of fascinating the way it is all coming together.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Going back to the Met Gala, I read that there's, like, obviously so many rules, and, like, we've known that there's no phones allowed for some time. Obviously, there's, like, the iconic bathroom photos, but there's also. They don't seat you with your partner because they want to, like, encourage new conversations. Like church, kind of. Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

You know,

[Natalie]

sharing the peace.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, the peace. Like, you know, say hi to your neighbor. Peace. Peace be with you. I haven't been in church in a minute.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

They also don't serve with their food. They don't. They don't serve garlic or onion, obviously. They don't want anyone to have bad breath. They also don't put any small herbs or green onion because they don't want anyone to get anything in their teeth.

[Nick Viall]

Guessing they don't serve Oreos either.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

Is this all confirmed? I'm not denying you. This is very fascinating.

[Nick Viall]

Are these rumors or it wasn't like, some blog?

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

An actual. I don't remember.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

I believe it. I'm just intrigued by this.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Yeah. And then it was like, obviously, there's no smoking. There's, like, this iconic photo of.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

Well, there's a smoking section. That's why someone.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Maybe Bella Hadid or someone. I don't know, someone, like, smoking in the bathroom, and, like, everyone's sitting around them. You get, like, the smallest amount of time with Anna Wintour, and every guest gets it, and it's at the top of the stairs, she, like, greets everyone.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

And that's, like, your one moment with Anna Wintour.

[Natalie]

Is she still doing that?

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, I think so.

[Natalie]

I think so.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

She interestingly wore the same. Basically the same dress, different color that she wore.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

She's always done that, though. Anna doesn't come in the dress code. Like, super.

[Natalie]

I mean, neither does anyone.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

I love that you love that. This is her whole. What do you mean? She's not even gonna participate?

[Natalie]

But she is not.

[Nick Viall]

It's very much like, I'm not like, I'm.

[Natalie]

You know what I mean?

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

She's the stylist.

[Nick Viall]

Monkey dance. I'm gonna make you wear some weird. But I'm just.

[Natalie]

Yeah. And I'm just gon Chic as fuck.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

She does participate. But, yeah, it's not to the same

[Nick Viall]

level of, like, you know who was at the Met Gala?

[Natalie]

Who?

[Nick Viall]

Blake Lively.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

She was. I was Honestly surprised. I was surprised to see her well

[Nick Viall]

on the heels on the same day. That was announced a lot, you know. And we do have Emily D. Baker joining us momentarily to help us break down because what was also announced yesterday is that there was, to my big, big surprise, because I honestly thought this was going to go to court, that Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni settled their case. Now I imagine, like, everyone out there, everyone. What does that mean? I don't know.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

I purposefully did not read one article. I said, you know what? I'm going to hear it from the smartest person I know.

[Natalie]

Yes.

[Nick Viall]

Emily D. Baker, what does it mean for a settlement? It was Blake suing Justin. I know they've both sued each other, but that his court case has dropped. But we have Emily D. Baker momentarily to help us break this down. What does it all mean? But it is fascinating and interesting to see, like, on that same day, it seems like Blake is ready to move forward with her life. Get, get back out there, put this all behind her, you know, And I'm sure her critics will say one thing, her supporters will say another. I am very curious of what, what we can take away from this settlement, if anything. And we do have Emily D. Baker joining us in just a moment. We also have Tom Swartz with us following Emily Baker. To catch up with him, we got the Valley. He is now a member of the Valley cast and the season is kind of, it's, it's getting, it's getting going.

[Natalie]

We're getting, we're getting somewhere.

[Nick Viall]

I am curious his thoughts on the Summer House of it all. He is adjacently connected, obviously, being a figure of scandal, but I honestly am more interested in like, kind of, again, that parasocial relationship. And when it comes to this stuff, you know, knowing how TV shows are made, specifically, Bravo. I always think there's like an element that we as fans are not privy to in terms of how much do these stars have to like, keep their mouth shut about certain things in production that may or may not somehow lead to the decisions that are made in the sense that, like, we have sports on the Valley, kind of loosely flirting with Michelle a little bit more than loosely flirting with his friend Jesse Lally, his ex wife. Kind of giving kind of summer house coded, but, like, honest. Jesse doesn't seem to mind. But also, like, would this happen organically or is it happening because they're all part of the same cast? And like, like in high school, you roam in these small groups and then like, because of the proximity, it's like Well, I mean, you're here and you're single and I guess I don't know, even though you're. You were married to my friend. And I'm just curious how much, if anything, that that sometimes lead to these decisions and these conflicts and drama that we're getting from the summer house scandals. I'm looking forward to catch up with Tom. Anyways, Emily D. Baker is ready. She's ready to go.

[Tom Schwartz]

She.

[Nick Viall]

She's here. So let's get to Emily Baker. Before we get to Emily D. Baker, I just want to remind you that Vile Files plus is ad free. All your favorite Vile Files episodes are ad free. Ah. On Vile Files plus plus you get additional bonus content like our Reality Recap Deep Dives where we dive deep into all the topics on your favorite reality TV shows and trending topics going on in the world of reality tv. Plus your pop culture roundup where we get into all your favorite pop culture topics and some just kind of random messy topics. Also your update special where we get your favorite updates and all your favorite Ask Nick callers. So if you need a little bit more Vile Files in your Life, go to vi files.com to sign up for Vile Files Plus. You'll be glad that you did.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

The easiest decision for me, the second I find out that I am pregnant is which prenatal I'm going to take. And it is and always has been Ritual. I've taken Ritual for years. I have taken their multivitamin, I've taken their prenatal, I've taken their postnatal. I have taken every single thing that Ritual offers. And all of them are so good. They're all backed by science. Ritual is the number one best selling prenatal. They have the only leading prenatal backed by its own human clinical trial. Essential Prenatal was clinically proven to deliver key nutrients including folate, biotin and vitamin D. Moms taking Ritual had a lower overall cortisol level during pregnancy than those taking a leading prenatal. I definitely remember how sick I was in the first trimester and how I'm just not even able to smell anything or take anything. And I was so worried I wouldn't be able to take my prenatals. But with Ritual, they essence them in citrus and mint so it doesn't smell weird, it doesn't taste bad. I love the citrus one because I'm just a citrus girly. They also designed to be easier to swallow, gentler on the stomach, and a better overall positive experience than those a leading prenatal. Their patented capsule is designed to dissolve in the small intestines, which is an optimal place to absorb nutrients. So do not settle for less than evidence based support. Save 25 on your first [e-mail] vill that's ritual.com vill for 25 off your

[Nick Viall]

first month this one's for all my TV lovers. My entertainment from DirecTV gets you 60 plus channels and Disney Plus, Hulu and HBO Max all in one pack. But here's the thing. With so much great TV in my entertainment, you're going to want to talk about everything you've been watching. Just remember that your friends might not be as well watched as you. Don't be a spoiler and encourage them to get my Entertainment for just 34.99amonth. Go to directtv.com genre packs and sign up today. New customers only. Service renews monthly unless canceled. Credit card required Conditions apply to all apps. HBO Max Basics and ads begin after DIRECTV five day trial. Learn [e-mail] restrictions apply. Well, we were driving. We were driving home from the doctor's office today and Natalie reminded me that this Sunday is Mother's Day. And I said, oh shoot.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

No, he said.

[Natalie]

Really?

[Nick Viall]

Really?

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

This Sunday?

[Nick Viall]

This Sunday, this one coming up. And if you're like me, and you probably are, and you got a mother in your life, whether it's your lovely wife, your mom, your godmother, your neighbor who's motherly for all the moms out there, don't forget that Mother's Day is this weekend and if you have not thought of the mothers in your life, well then we have a gift for you. It's 1-800-Flowers. Flowers are the number one gift to give Mother's Day and 1-800-Flowers is helping people deliver those last minute gifts directly to the people that you love.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

And right now when you order one dozen roses from 1-800-flowers, they'll double your bouquet to two dozen for free. Twice the flowers for the mom who gives everything. For more than 50 years, 1-800-Flowers has perfected the details that matter most. Every bouquet is picked at peak freshness, carefully packaged and backed by a freshness guarantee so you're not receiving some wilted flowers at your doorstep. 1-800-FLowers knows many of us procrastinate and they've been saving their customers with same day delivery for years. Even if May 9th snuck up on you, they can still make May 10th count.

[Nick Viall]

Mother's Day is this Sunday, May 10th, and bouquets are selling out fast. Trust me. Don't wait to claim your double roses offer before they're gone, visit 1-800-flowers.com v I a l l that's 1-800-flower. One more time, 1-800flowers.com vi a l l Emily, welcome to the show. Welcome back.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Welcome back.

[Emily D. Baker]

So good to see y'.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

All.

[Emily D. Baker]

Lots of law been going on lately. I know it's great to be here.

[Nick Viall]

Lots of law going on. And we very much appreciate you being our. We'll call you our unofficial legal correspondent. But, you know, maybe we can call you our official.

[Emily D. Baker]

We'll make it official one of these days.

[Nick Viall]

We are so appreciative of you and what you do, Emily. And it's so our audience loves you. It's always fascinating and, and interesting to get. Your legal perspect is also just a fan of the same things that we're a fan of. But as we talked about before you joined the show, Justin and Blake Lively, I don't know if they announced it, but it was announced that they had settled just right before their court case was scheduled to go to court, I think in May. So we were kind of, it seemed like just a few weeks away. There's that old saying that deadline spur action. It seems like maybe that played a role in this as well. I think a lot of people were surprised, surprised on both sides, myself included. I really thought this would go to court. I think I felt like Blake seemed determined to really see this thing through. But to maybe everyone's surprise, they had decided to settle. And I, you know, I think now a lot of people who have followed this case almost feel a little like, I hate to say, disappointed because they had followed it so much. And when it comes to a settlement, it's like, hey, we settled.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

It's over.

[Nick Viall]

And then it's like, well, what did you settle on? What does that mean? Did someone win? Did someone not win? I feel like everyone's claiming victory, you know, depending on what side they kind of fell on. But could you give us a little insight into what this all means in from a legal standpoint and what can we take or learn, if anything, from this announcement of their settlement?

[Emily D. Baker]

I love a good what, if anything, it's difficult with settlements because it does feel like everything comes to a screeching halt because we're not behind the scenes. We don't see how much the lawyers are discussing negotiating. We don't know how long they've been talking. But we do know that when Judge Lyman posted his hundred and almost fifty page order on the motions for summary judgment, it did Give everyone an off ramp. He didn't hold back on how he saw the evidence and how he saw the case. And it gives the lawyers new footing to go talk to the parties and say, look, this is what we're actually looking at for trial. And candidly, the conversation of how much that will actually cost, which is going to be possibly tens of millions of dollars total. So not only are you looking at what's going to come out at trial realistically now that they know what the shape of the evidence is, but they know how much it's going to cost. And that can bring people to the table and give them an off ramp in a different way. And then it probably took quite a lot of legal wrangling back and forth with the lawyers to get a joint statement out. Because these parties have been so at odds for so long trying to put out any type of agreed statement with the lawyers. That is a really difficult and deeply negotiated thing because we're probably not going to hear any more about this case from any of the parties, from any official sources, from the lawyers, because that settlement agreement's going to have NDAs, and those NDAs are going to have monetary amounts. If they're violated, if it's violated, that money damages, that money amount just snaps right into place. But they haven't filed notice of settlement with the court yet. So if the judge woke up this morning and is like, I hear we don't have a trial, where is the filing on the docket? It's not on the docket yet. I expect we'll see that sometime today, but it's still not there. And other things were filed yesterday, Monday, May 4th. So I'm waiting to see the official notice of settlement. I'm waiting to see how long they ask for. Sometimes parties need time to get the terms of the settlement executed. That can be exchanging money, that can be exchanging documents, that can be all kinds of things. But if they don't need that period of time, it might mean that this is just a mutual walk away where everybody says, I will not sue you over anything. I will not continue to sue you over anything. We're all going our own directions. This is the mutual statement. Done. Done.

[Nick Viall]

So there's a world where this settlement means almost like everyone just like, agreed to just say, you know what? Just kidding.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Yes, that's wild.

[Emily D. Baker]

I don't feel like there is a world where everybody just put it, said, we're not gonna sue you anymore. We're not going to resume suing you. Everything that happened, no one's Gonna sue anymore over anything. We're never gonna talk about it again, you know, keep your name out of my mouth and walk away. That's possible.

[Nick Viall]

Is it also.

[Tom Schwartz]

And then.

[Nick Viall]

Then what are the other possibilities? I guess, like, my non legal sense is more like I was on the impression, okay, so, like, it was Blake suing Justin. Justin was suing Blake in the past, but that was dismissed. So his case against her was thrown out or whatever. Yes, so. And then part of her case was also dismissed, but she's still. Which I always. I always consider the most important part of this case was the retaliation. That was the thing I was most fascinated by, because as someone who, you know, in a weird, you know, in a way operates in the space, like the way you're seeing bots and the way discourse is, seems to be influenced online, I feel like this is a real thing. It's a dangerous thing that involves everything. And I was really fascinated by that. Is there a world where Justin's side did agree to pay Blake side a certain amount of money because they thought, okay, well, you know what? It's. This will cost us less in the long run, and we'll just agree. Is there any r. And is there also any world where Blake did have to pay Justin some money?

[Emily D. Baker]

There is a world where money could have exchanged hands. I don't know if either party would have been amenable to that with how negotiated this settlement agreement is, but there's a world where that happened because at the end of the day, Blake Lively had to stop her lawsuit. She has to file the motion to dismiss. His has already been dismissed, though. I guarantee you, in a settlement, they're going to agree that he, the PR company and his companies aren't going to bring any further lawsuits against Blake Lively, any of her companies, and probably Ryan Reynolds as well, since he had originally been sued by Baldoni and those parties. And the decision maker in this is Wayfarer. And yes, Baldoni is a part owner of Wayfarer, but that company was the only defendant left in addition to the pr. So Baldoni had already really been removed from the suit as a individual, given the way that the court ruled on the motion for summary judgment. So Wayfair had to make those agreements to walk away. So technically it would be, yes, the company, Wayfarer, could have paid Lively. Yes, Lively could have paid the company. Though more unusual for the party suing to pay to settle once they're in litigation, because the massive benefit from the party suing is withdrawing that lawsuit, not going to trial, then Again, defendants also have to agree to settle. But one of the interesting parts of that could be whether or not Wayfarer was operating partly through their insurance, because insurance companies can have a lot of very strong opinions about whether something's going to trial or not and whether a settlement agreement will be accepted. So if the company's operating through some of their, you know, errors in emissions or liability insurance, insurance could have also had a hand in encouraging the company to settle once, of course, the plaintiff, Lively, was willing to also settle.

[Nick Viall]

So if. If I'm. I want to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying. So let's say they had the evidence, you know, that was kind of laid out like you said, and no doubt Wayfair, and. And they all have insurance. And assuming Wayfarer's insurance provider was like, yep, we think based on what we're coming up with, you're at risk of owing this much, which sounds like we're going to have to write that check to a certain amount. So could the insurance company encourage Justin to settle and say, we'll pay you this much, so go ahead and settle this case. And if you want to, just have us handle it, because maybe the insurance company is thinking this will save us money, and then encouraging Justin and his team and Wayfair or whatever to settle, because, you know, they're. They're letting them know what their limits are, so to speak, could.

[Emily D. Baker]

Could absolutely be involved in that decision making process if they are also covering part of the cost of the litigation. So, yeah, insurance companies, if you think of it in context of a car accident, like litigation, and your car insurance is like, okay, well, we'll pay for this, but we also can make the agreement to settle this. It's not dissimilar. It's just a much larger scale where insurance can be involved in those decisions. I don't know if that happened here because we've seen privately retained counsel clearly, but it is possible that that is one of the other things running in the background that's not really largely being accounted for in the conversation is that right now the last defendant standing are companies. And those companies are going to have insurance companies looking at them going, this is a good settlement offer. Figure out whatever the joint statement is and we're going to be done. And honestly, a lot of people, I'm sure, are going to wonder, why did we have to get up to the eve of trial, like, jurors were coming in next week for jury selection, because we don't know what evidence is actually going to trial until those last evidentiary rulings happened. Once all those ruling hap. All those rulings happen, you now can look at the case and be like, this is what a jury's going to see. And then you can really make a fair assessment of who's at risk and where. And all parties had risk of exposure here. I know not everybody's going to agree with that. You never know what's going to happen at jury trial. All parties have risk of exposure, and they're going forward on the retaliation claim. And that is contractually based, which means it could be that a jury looks at the contract and said, you agreed not to retaliate. We've got this text saying we can bury anyone, and there's going to be some jurors being like, like, yeah, that looks like retaliation to me. So you have a case based on a contract dispute going to the jury, and then because it's on retaliation, all of the text messages behind the scenes are all going to come up. And the question is really focused on did they retaliate against Blake Lively in any way, violating their agreement to not do so. And it's civil. Jurors don't have to be unanimous. So there's a lot of risk there for all parties.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

This is kind of surprising to me because I just. I don't feel like it was ever about money. Like, I don't, you know, like, I don't feel like that's what.

[Nick Viall]

For Blake's side.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

For Blake's side. Like, Blake wanted money from Wayfarer, from Justin, to feel like she, you know, had won or what. Like, I feel like in the settlement, there's gotta be some sort of. Of admit of, like, wrongdoing for. It just doesn't make sense to me that Blake would. That it would just be, like, money motivated.

[Emily D. Baker]

I agree with you.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Right. Isn't that weird?

[Emily D. Baker]

Well, I agree that it wasn't money motivated. I think, though, the decision can be money motivated because looking at filing a lawsuit and looking at how much money you're laying out for trial are two very different things. So going to trial and spending the millions and millions and millions for trial is. Is going to be a part of that consideration. But also, I always think discovery was a huge part of this case. Knowing what was going on behind the scenes is a big part of that. And that part of the case has been completed. And I don't think we're going to see any other admissions other than what's in the joint statement. And the joint statement did indicate, you know, we all agree that Blake brought claims that deserved to be heard. I think that's about as much of an acknowledgment as we're going to see. And then the end of that statement asking for things going forward on social media to be more peaceful.

[Nick Viall]

You know, I talked to you offline a while back talking about this case, Emily, and you said something, you talked about plaintiff fatigue, I think was the term you used, or something to that effect. And I thought was really interesting and I'd love for you to shed more light on it, but like, you were just, you know, just the emotional toll, the psychological toll these court cases take on everyone. And you know, again, depending on how, where you land on this thing, it, you know, it seems like a lot of defendants in these types of sexual harassment cases or things like that, that the defendants can be ultra aggressive in their defense and attacking the character of the plaintiff and things like that. And I think sometimes, correct me if I'm wrong, what you were basically telling me is that, like, it's one thing to like, start a case and obviously feel like you really have the facts in your favor, and then you, you, you move forward and then things kind of snowball and fans get involved and all of a sudden, a year later, it just becomes a toll on your overall well being, your mental health, your family and things like that. And you, and it sounds like you're basically saying, like, these plaintiffs, and maybe it's part of a strategy of the defense to kind of wear them down to a point where they're, they're the reason they chose to fight it, you know, and maybe it wasn't money motivated. Maybe the calculus changes for the plaintiffs where they start, they take a step back and say, all right, like, I, I, I had my heels dug in, I was ready to fight. But it, maybe it's not worth it. I don't know, is it, is it something like that? Where that often plays a role in these types of cases?

[Emily D. Baker]

I mean, in any civil litigation, lawyers will try to explain exactly what it's going to be like. But there are some things you can't understand. All the cost to yourself that it's going to take until you are walking through it, and oftentimes until after deposition, because your lawyers are going to look at you at the end of a six or eight hour deposition and be like, okay, now we're going to do that for four days while you're on the stand in front of a jury and you cannot lose your temper and you cannot snap at the lawyer and that is the lawyer that's going to cross examine you. And now you know what that feels like. Now you know what the evidence looks like. Now you know what they're going to say. And if they convince enough jurors, then where do we cut our losses? And that's for both sides, because both sides have to be willing to settle. The defense can say, we're not settling. You brought us all the way here, we're going to keep going and the plaintiff can do the same. But at some point the feeling shifts from yes, I'm going forward to this with this lawsuit, to the reality of living with. Going to trial is very different after you've done depositions. And plaintiffs do become fatigued. And we see that in all different types of, types of cases where defense delay becomes part of the strategy. I don't think we've seen that here. I think the defense has pushed this case forward pretty quickly to their credit. But yes, of course the defense is going to be aggressive. They feel that they've been dragged into court wrongly and they're going to let everyone know it. But it's not comfortable being cross examined in court. And you Never know what 12 jurors or eight jurors are going to do. So, so once you've experienced that and lived with the like lawyer bills coming to your house every month, the fatigue of a thing can also help with settlement. But also, I really think that summary judgment ruling gave an off ramp because the judge pointed out the strengths and weaknesses of both cases and it gave everyone somewhere to come to the table and have a conversation about where you're exposed. And then you just have to have, have really a very strategic conversation of best case, worst case. And not all clients can hear that early on in a case because it's going to be different for them and their case is different than every other case. And they don't know yet. But once you've been through litigation, a lot of people are like, I'm just, if we can just walk away from this, I'm ready for it to stop. And, and that very much might be where both parties are. And I'm sure everybody wants to walk away and be done, but a lot of the damage in this case has already been done. And we're going to keep seeing stuff get unsealed from court because we're that close to trial that unsealed documents are coming up and maybe everything will get sealed again as part of the settlement. We don't know yet because notice the settlement hasn't been filed but it's damaging to have unsealed documents in court, but it's far more damaging to have those people come in and testify day after day after day. Plus, look at the witnesses. We're talking about Sony executives, other celebrities. This ropes in a ton of other people. And that has to be part of the calculation too. Do you really want to bring in all of the Sony executives into court in federal court in New York and expose all of their emails too? At what point is it better to not have to bring all of those witnesses in?

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. One final question about this case and then I want to get. You get into some of the Mormon wives stuff. When you mentioned about like the gag order or just like the NDA that they all agree to, it feels like throughout this case things have been leaked, you know, I don't know on both sides certainly. I feel like on Justin's side, his team has its tentacles and a lot of online contributors know. That's just really my opinion. But I guess my question is I feel like we live in a world where one person be like, I'm not going to say anything, you know, I'm going to honor my NDA. But they'll find a way to get information out through third parties. How, how does a court handle something like this where you never hear anything from Justin or aside, you never hear anything from Blake or her side? But what if things do get out in the zeitgeist of the Internet at will they'll be with these parties, be held liable. And you know what I'm saying, like, how could they police that or honor that if it's, if it's somehow all of a sudden like Piers Morgan, I don't know, is on his show and he starts like, I got some tea about this case, you know, because he's been like, also like every. So many people are covering it. What does that look like if, you know, people start speaking out and saying they have some information?

[Emily D. Baker]

Well, one of the things that's hard with this case is that there are so many documents. I'm sure there are things that have been filed on the public docket that people haven't unearthed yet just because it's hundreds of thousands of pages of documents that have been unsealed. So people can continue to go and dig through those if they don't all get resealed, but they've already been out. So resealing it is kind of like trying to put the ship back in a horse. It's not going to work. So when you are looking at Post settlement settlement, it's up to the lawyers. And you still have your lawyers on retainer and the lawyers have to start to sort out enforcement of that settlement agreement. And that can end up back in court in separate litigation for breach of the settlement agreement. But that becomes a new litigation on breach of the settlement agreement and it can start things all over again. But I imagine that we won't see, like Brian Friedman, one of the lawyers for the Wayfarer parties, has given a lot of interviews. I imagine we won't see many interviews regarding this. And if he's interviewed regarding other cases, because he's still the lawyer in the scandal lawsuit, he's one of the lawyers in that lawsuit. So if he's talking about other things and somebody asks about this, I imagine his statement is going to be, everyone reached a mutual settlement agreement and we released a public statement and I have no further comment.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, it doesn't sound like we'll be seeing Justin Baldoni, Blake Lively or Ryan or doing any sit down interviews talking about this case anytime soon or ever.

[Emily D. Baker]

Or ever. Because those settlement agreements generally will be in perpetuity, which means no one can talk about it ever. And we already know that they've gone through lengths to dig up who's communicating with who, how they're communicating. There's tons of discovery in this case that will never see the light of day and the lawyers will continue to be mindful of that and then go enforce those settlement agreements. Those things normally happen between lawyers and never get into a courtroom. But there are cases where settlement agreement and breach of settlement agreement does end up right back in court. But that breach of contract's a pretty easy case if it's one of the main parties. When it becomes the I have a source and then somebody's just talking, that can become a little more nuanced to dive into. But that's where you get into subpoenas and discovery and a whole new case.

[Nick Viall]

Seems like the lawyers won.

[Emily D. Baker]

The lawyers absolutely won. I said at the beginning of this case, I'm like, the lawyers are going to win, everyone else is going to lose because it's so messy. So much has been unearthed in this case and there are things that are unflattering to all parties and many will have opinions on who it's more unflattering to and that's fine. But there is unflattering things that come up in a lawsuit on all sides and both parties thought that they had more to lose or they wouldn't have settled that uncertainty of a jury it is better for all parties, I think, to be able to put down the lawyers and walk away. And though getting money from the other party might not have been the motive here, it's really real. When you look at the actual cost of trial, with a jury coming in in a week, it just sometimes takes right up to the end for parties to go, you know what? You're right. It's time to walk away.

[Nick Viall]

Because I feel like when this all started, I feel like. I don't know. I don't think they ever thought it would go this far, you know, either of them. You know, there was that New York Times piece that was released at the end of the year, and that almost felt like Blake's side kind of speaking her truth. And it seemed to be a far different narrative than what everyone thought. And then all these, like, lawsuits started happening, and then it became almost like a tit for tat, you know, and it kind of almost. I felt like it almost snowballed where. As if they never really thought it would get this far anyways, but it just kind of kept going and going, and they dug their heels in and. And it sounds like maybe right before court, like, I guess, what cooler has prevailed, I guess, I don't know is the saying.

[Emily D. Baker]

I think one of the things I've been critical of in this lawsuit particularly was how overblown the filings got, especially in the beginning. The very first filing by Lively was a pretty standard federal court complaint. Then again, she already had the New York Times article that had a lot of her side of the story. So then when Baldoni's side comes in with their side, it is not just a allegations complaint. It is screenshots, receipts, timelines. It is a very overwrought complaint with quite a lot of information in it. But I think strategically, the lawyers aren't trying to, you know, impress one another. They are trying to get their side of the story out to the public as well. And I think very early on, the Wayfarer lawyers took every opportunity in the filings to do that, so that their side of the story was also getting pushed out very much through court documents. And the judge had actually admonished them once or twice, I think about that. But everybody has really aired almost everything before witnesses come into court. So I think both sides have had quite a lot of information out in the public that wouldn't otherwise be there.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

That would have been a tough jury to select.

[Emily D. Baker]

It would have been a tough jury to select. But you will always find people who are like, wait, what? I'VE never heard that that's going on. But then again, that jury can skew a little bit older and the tolerance for what's going on online can shift as your jury shifts because you get a younger audience who's looking at some of the retaliation stuff and they're like, yeah, I just kind of figure that's what happens on social media. You get a slightly older audience and they're like, wait, people are doing what?

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Yeah.

[Emily D. Baker]

Are you kidding me?

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Emily D. Baker]

That's wild.

[Nick Viall]

So are you calling me old?

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Yeah, I'm.

[Emily D. Baker]

I'm old. I'm calling me old. But you get a jury pool that hasn't heard of this case. Some of the allegations in this case that are going forward might also be more shocking to them.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. Fascinating. Emily, I really appreciate your perspective on this. Switching gears a little bit and taking your lawyer hat off and putting on your pop culture fan.

[Emily D. Baker]

We can't just even do pop culture with Mormon wives because we've been in court so much on that case too.

[Nick Viall]

Well, yeah, we're in court, but the big question now is, will Mom Talk survive? Over the weekend, TMZ released some audio from Jesse which she has since addressed. And then Dakota entered the chat, and then Dakota and then Taylor entered the chat and it seemed now we're like almost kind of a la Justin and Blake where it was just like, you know, we're getting outside of the courts and inside the court of public opinion, which they all seem to be trying to like curry favor with the audience. Basically. To summarize, the leaked audio of Jesse was. Was it Jesse talking to Dakota or.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Yep.

[Nick Viall]

And basically it was just like, you know, when this all came out, it seemed like, you know, like a lot of the women generally know how to like react to this video. Definitely. And it was. We are unsure who saw this video. And I think we all can agree that like, however, you know, I don't care if you're Taylor, Taylor's mom, Taylor's friend, that this is. This was a very disturbing and difficult video to watch. And it was sad and heartbreaking for everyone involved. I took it as. That's kind of was Jesse's point of view just wanting to see the video. And I think a lot of these women when it first came out were kind of scared and unsure how to speak on this and that it seemed like was Jesse's motivation as part of this conversation, at least how I took it. And then Dakota entered the chat and basically trying to like accuse Jesse of kind of like being two faced or you're not really having Taylor's back and kind of accusing Jesse of, like, changing tune now that, like, maybe public discourse has kind of shifted a little bit.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

Well, and this voice memo leaked after Taylor's lawyers said that, like, Jesse had a conversation where he was basically gonna take the embarrassment into his own hands. Dakota to, like, go after Taylor. So that's where this memo came out after the fact.

[Emily D. Baker]

Jesse's statement was something that the judge brought up in court that he was relying on based on what she said in her affidavit that Dakota had done. So the court mentioned it twice. I believe during that hearing that Jesse's statement to the court was something that he considered specifically in the things that Taylor brought forward with regard to trying to figure out the mutual protective orders. So it did play in. In court right before that audio came out through tmz.

[Nick Viall]

The thing that I don't really understand from Dakota's point of view, it's just like, he seems to still be trying to convince Jesse, the audience, everyone, that there was no strategy on his end, that this. That he is truly just a victim in all of this and that he has nothing to do with these videos and the timing of which it was released was all some big coincidence. And I just don't see how anyone at this point, and this is just my opinion, how they can believe that. We had you on not too long ago, Emily talked about, like, we know that Dakota is the owner of the IP of this video. It seems to be there's a roommate somehow is like, the scapegoat of. He seems to be the one selling it to tmz. It's just like, well, he's your roommate. How is he involved in this? Like, well, how did he get the video? And it's almost as if, like, Dakota's trying to gaslight anyone in thinking that, like. Like he's just a helpless bystander and he can't control if his roommate, like, goes into his room and goes into his phone and steals a video. And, and. And like, as if we're supposed to believe that.

[Emily D. Baker]

Find a contact at TMZ and find

[Nick Viall]

a contact at tmz.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

And, well, what's interesting is before this audio came out, you had Jesse go on her stories and say, like, hey, just got a phone call. There's going to be some audio that's released. It's a voice memo that I sent to Dakota, and this is what it is. I've already talked to Taylor about it. I think all of this is just proving that he clearly has A contact at tmz. And he is clearly providing them with all of this information to try and make himself look better.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. Which speaks to, again, this seems to be all about him trying to make himself look better and simultaneously make Taylor look bad. And I just didn't get, for the life of me how he thinks that we're buying this story.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Didn't his lawyer say in court he asked his publicist not to release the video?

[Emily D. Baker]

His lawyer exactly said that. His lawyer said he asked his public. He gave the video to his publicist and asked them not to release it. His lawyer was still trying to kind of dance around some of the things that the court wanted to hear about with Dakota. And I think Jesse probably should have been wary if she had seen that he saved the voice memo when she sent it, because on the iPhone, you would see if it's saved unless he recorded it as, like, a screen recording when he played it. So it doesn't show that the voice memo is saved. But also, why are we doing that much then?

[Nick Viall]

Exactly.

[Emily D. Baker]

Unless we're using it again.

[Nick Viall]

Also, that's kind of the point. He's releasing this video of Jesse, and it's just like, wait, we're supposed to believe that you strategically kind of set her up and threw her under the bus? But, like, you're not that type of guy who would do that in any other situation, including your ex partner who you share a child with. And it's just like, well, which one are you? You know, are you the. It's like, what. Which. Which part of this are we supposed to believe? Also, like, if you asked your publicist not to release it, then they probably wouldn't have released it. They are your publicist.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

I'm also shocked that he has a publicist.

[Emily D. Baker]

I think that was a large sentiment. Everybody went, wait, what? But also, I imagine most publicists, especially when we were dealing with a video of a domestic violence incident where children are present, aren't going to play fast and loose with that. And even if the roommate sent it to tmz, I can't imagine that legally they would put it out without having the copyright owner sign off on it. So at the end of the day, we know that Dakota had to sign off on that video becoming public on their child's birthday and the day he went to court. The timing is not coincidental. And to Taylor, Frankie Paul's lawyer and her credit, their strategy was take responsibility for the things you've done, give context around the other things. And Dakota's strategy was she's the Problem. I'm not the problem. She needs a restraining order, not me. And I don't think the court was very persuaded by that. But yes, this Jesse voice note coming out after the court relied on Jesse's affidavit is not a coincidence.

[Nick Viall]

And to that point, even if Jesse sent the voice note to Dakota, to Dakota's phone, in theory, Dakota is the owner of that voice note. So even if his roommate stole it or got into his phone, to your point, TMZ would still want to get Dakota's approval in sign off for releasing that voice memo. Even if it was the roommate who called up TMZ and said, hey, I got this voice memo.

[Emily D. Baker]

I mean, in theory they could get Jesse's approval, but we, we don't think that's going to happen. So I can't see Jesse being like, oh sure, that's super flattering for me. Let's go ahead and put it out there.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Is their case done, Taylor and Dakotas, or are they still like in court?

[Emily D. Baker]

It's kind of done. So I have a question about what's going to happen with everybody reaching out to Jesse because. Because if they're making statements about each other publicly, they both have a no contact order, which is not just don't be within a hundred feet of each other, it's do not talk about the other one. No comments through third parties. So they both now have mutual stay away orders for three years. The parenting time part of the case is not done yet. And then they still have a child custody case that is not done yet. So there is more going on that is going to keep going through the court system. And there is a open CPS case that is wrapping up because they're both getting support and services and evaluations. So the parenting stuff's not done. But yeah, they both have three year mutual protective orders, so there's no way they can film together. I don't know if she will want to go back to filming, but there's no way they can film together. They probably can't be on the show together because in confessionals you would have to talk about the other and they're not allowed to do that.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Did you see Dakota posted like some TikTok, some video and Leanne Taylor's mom commented and said, I would just like to know who's watching ever.

[Emily D. Baker]

Boy.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Yeah, which I mean, I guess she's allowed to, right? I mean she doesn't have a. No, she can.

[Emily D. Baker]

Not talking about Taylor. Yeah, but it's going to come up because they still have A custody case. And they still have a argument over how much Taylor gets to see Ever. Because remember, Taylor's still on only supervised parental time, which is limited hours a day with a supervisor. And that right now is some family members. But he has a hundred percent custody, which is a huge change because she had had 70% custody up until he filed that temporary protective order on Ever's birthday and then took 100% custody.

[Nick Viall]

Fascinating. Fascinating. You know, I think it's one thing that I think Dakota has failed to recognize and I think this is why you know, where you know, obviously, again, we know that the video is disturbing. No one thinks it's anything other than terrible to see. But the reason why Taylor, Frankie Paul has the fans that she has throughout this time is that like, she's always been honest, she's always taken accountability, she's always owned her part. Now you can, you can critique how she's done that. You can say that's not enough. But she's always been willing to go there where it seems like Dakota's not. And he seems to have been caught in so many lies. And even now it's just like he is publicly saying things that are quite frankly easily disproven. And I think over time that's going to continue to work against Dakota because Taylor seems to be comfortable with acknowledging the role she has played in this mess. Like you said, that seems to be her team strategy, is to like not pretend that she has not done anything wrong wrong, but offer that context where it's just like there is more to the story and it just honestly seems a lot more believable than Dakota. Side of things.

[Emily D. Baker]

It's. The court was very clear that no one is without blame in their relationship and had pretty strong words for both of them almost in a. Both of you need to get it together and stop it. But he said that he found Dakota's behavior to be calculating and. And he found Taylor to have absolutely no reign on her emotions. And it concerned the court that when she's provoked, it doesn't matter if her child is there, if her child's in Dakota's arms, that she does not snap out of it when she's going after him, even if the kids are around. And he found Dakota's behavior that he's picking up his phone and filming her after she is responding to be really concerning. That doesn't change that it's not okay to hit someone. But the court was like, you can't go hands on with people and you cannot lose control while your children are around and he should not and cannot be pushing your buttons. And when you get in a car driving away with the children in the home at night, you. You two both cannot do this. So I think the. Everyone has to stay away from everyone is going to be tough over the next three years. And that then the thing that they have that most cases don't have is that the entire Internet is going to be scouring everything they do on social being. Like, does that violate the protective order? Did you just violate the protective order? Hey, I think they violated the protective order. The amount of emails their lawyers are going to get with tips from the Internet is going to be persistent, I would imagine. Well, so will mom talk survive? I mean, hopefully dad talk doesn't. That's just where I'm at.

[Nick Viall]

I hope dad talk doesn't survive it. It just seems not to be. It's just like they're not likable. I do think mom talks survive it. We'll obviously keep discussing it.

[Emily D. Baker]

Nick, can I ask you one parted question as we go?

[Nick Viall]

Yes.

[Emily D. Baker]

Did you see in court that they talked about the lip tattoo?

[Nick Viall]

I did, yeah. And he claimed that it was for.

[Emily D. Baker]

Did you know that that happened when they were filming?

[Nick Viall]

No.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

No.

[Emily D. Baker]

So it's on camera, apparently. Okay. This is what I wanted to ask you about because you had asked me about the lip tattoo last time, and I was like, I haven't even heard of the. This. They bring up the lip tattoo in court and Dakota's lawyer gets up there and says, your honor, it's not weird that he's getting her initials tattooed in his lip because all of the dads went to a tattoo parlor with the camera crew because they were filming. Oh, my God. So apparently that's part of season five, I guess.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

It's crazy.

[Nick Viall]

Well, the question is, will they, Will they air that? You know? Cause, like, can they air that? Will they air that kind of case

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

in point to the whole situation. Situation we're in.

[Natalie]

Yeah. I also don't know if at this point I need to see all of dad talk going to get their lips tatted so they can be more talking.

[Nick Viall]

I also don't, I don't know. I'm curious how the, the courts would see that, but I, I again, this isn't scripted. This is reality tv. And I understand some things that, you know, they're, they're doing scenes, but it's reality tv. People are in charge of their own decisions. No one made anyone get a tattoo, and no one made to get a certain tattoo or the placement of the tattoo and things like that. I feel like that would be a really bad defense, but I don't know how the courts would see it.

[Emily D. Baker]

I thought it was interesting that the defense was. But your honor, they were filming and I want to know whose idea it was to go to the tattoo parlors because was it Jordan's and why do I need to know that immediately?

[Nick Viall]

Certainly Jordan's 100%. He seems to be the producer of dad Talk. Not a very good one.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Not a very good.

[Nick Viall]

But he does seem to be one. Emily, thanks so much for your time. We appreciate you. It's always fun talking with you and we'll have to again, always have you back. Not just to talk legal, but to get into all your your pop culture takes. Because that's what we love about you, Emily. You're not only just an expert, you're also a fan.

[Emily D. Baker]

Absolutely. Thank you guys so much. Good to see you.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Thank you, Emily.

[Emily D. Baker]

Bye.

[Nick Viall]

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[Natalie or Female Co-host]

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[Nick Viall]

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[Natalie or Female Co-host]

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[Nick Viall]

I A L L always fascinating stuff from Emily Baker since honestly since she left there's more and more information has come out. I I also it's funny because when we asked her about like the gag order or the NDA where TMZ has since reported that like no money was exchanged. I don't know how they can figure that out that quickly. And if, if how also like how how does that come from anywhere other than the people involved? I imagine we're gonna see more and more opinions. Hot takes my opinion hasn't Changed. But, you know, I don't know.

[Natalie]

I forgot to ask Emily this, but I wonder if, like, with the settlement, part of it was just the realization that everyone, like, with public opinion, in the court of public opinion, everyone's just kind of like, we're still. At least that's how I like when I see headlines about it now. I'm like, oh, my God, we're still.

[Nick Viall]

I think that's it a lot.

[Natalie]

And it's like fatigue.

[Nick Viall]

Not even again, your friends get involved. It just. I just like as someone who's never really been involved in something like this, you know, you just hear stories of it.

[Tom Schwartz]

I think it's just.

[Nick Viall]

I think it consumes your whole life and. And at some point, point you have to make some very tough decisions on what's best, big picture and long term. I just, you know, I worry that it's just more of the same of someone trying to stand up for something and then quickly realizes how the world fights against that.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know. We also have Tom Schwartz coming up momentarily, and that's a very fun conversation. He has a. He has some stuff to say about Summer House. He actually hung out with Kyle and Carl.

[Natalie]

He did.

[Nick Viall]

Recently. And have some interesting perspective. Plus talking about, obviously, his time in the Valley, his new love in his life.

[Natalie]

He's in love, truly.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, you can see it on him, glowing. You can even hear in his voice if you're listening to the show. But before we do, Mom Talk is trying to survive. Whitney recently announced that she is not coming back. Today, she clarified that she will be finishing filming in season five when cameras pick back up, if they haven't already to confirm, it seems like, who do we still have left in Mom Talk?

[Natalie]

Macy, Michaela, Layla, Miranda, Jesse. Jesse and Jesse. Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And then I'm gonna go ahead and say Taylor, Frankie Ball.

[Natalie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nick Viall]

I think as long as Taylor's a part of the show, Mom Talk survives.

[Natalie]

Yeah. But the question is, if she's not, or even if she just kind of takes a little breather break, you know,

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

do you think they bring in kind of housewife esque? Do you think they bring in new moms into the mix?

[Nick Viall]

I hope. Maybe.

[Natalie]

I don't know.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

I mean, they already have done that. That's Miranda. Technically.

[Natalie]

Yeah. But Miranda.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Miranda was like, oh, gee, she was sure.

[Nick Viall]

The original lore.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

Shania was kind of a part of stuff.

[Natalie]

But I don't.

[Nick Viall]

It's my impression that before the show started, that. Meaning when you talk about Mom Talk. Mom Talk wasn't limited to these few women.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

No. They told us it was like, 50s or, like, a ton of them.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

So it seems like they would have a pretty deep roster.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

But, I mean, remember. Remember the backlash Miranda got for joining? It was like, oh, you just wanna, like. I mean, sure, but I wonder if that's gonna be every single. You know, that doesn't happen for New Housewives, Right? New Housewives. It's just like, oh, part of it, you know, it's like, yeah, get a new season.

[Natalie]

You're going on TV to be a housewife, but with Mormon wives would be like, oh, you're just doing this to, you know, be famous for the cloud. And it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nick Viall]

It's my guess your job. My guess is, is that if you were to talk to any New housewife, they probably hear that and feel that more than. Maybe we see it out there.

[Natalie]

Yeah, I guess.

[Nick Viall]

I think everyone's always resistant to change. I mean, you know, every time I bring a new voice on the show, everyone's like, who the fuck is this person? You know, there's a little bit of, like, audience hazing.

[Natalie]

Really, really, Really.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

I do think Mom Talk can survive without Taylor, Frankie, Paul, though. Like, I think Jesse Draper, Miranda, Michaela, all of them, Layla, have like, transcended, and, like, their followings are in the millions. Like, they pull in views consistently on their content.

[Nick Viall]

I don't. I don't disagree with that. I just think it would be even,

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

like, Macy alone, like, it would be

[Nick Viall]

a big cloud to, like, really break through, you know, and it's just. I think Taylor just has such a deep impact on this show and this group of women that I don't think it's. I think they have the talent, and I think there's an interest and certainly Jesse is getting. But, you know, the same way we talk about the Valley, where it's just like, you know, no one's sad to see Jax go, and yet I still think we're feeling the effects of him not being on the show.

[Natalie]

But with that, I am, like, I could barely get through the Valley last season. Like, it was so hard to watch. It was making me, like, physically sick to my stomach to watch. And this season isn't the most, like, like, dramatic, exciting thing in the world. Like, I'm not, like, waiting on the edge of my seat to see what's gonna go down in the Valley every week. But also, I, like, my body feels okay watching it. And I think that matters a lot.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

I think shows need their healing periods.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

Like Whitney Rose, like storyline wise, specifically.

[Natalie]

Healing journeys are important. If we've learned anything from Whitney Rose,

[Nick Viall]

I hope if Taylor comes back, it'll be interesting what her story storyline will be. Because her story line has been so wrapped up.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

It's going to be her recovering from all of this. I just hope it's going to be her friendships. Hey, guys, were you there for me? Were you not there for me? Thank you for being there for me. It's going to be the mending of the mom talk, friendships. It's going to be down to see that.

[Natalie]

I'm down to see it too. I just hope for her sake and for everyone else's sake that it doesn't complicate an already complicated situation by having it on camera for teaser. Do you know what I mean?

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, no, I. I do hope that if she's back, they have her best interests in mind.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Long term.

[Natalie]

And I would say that for every single person on Mormon Wives, I think after this, I'm just a little like, I just want to make sure all these girls are okay, you know?

[Nick Viall]

All right, well, more will be revealed. I still think we're gonna get the Taylor Frankie Paul basher at season.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

I mean, I think people are assuming at this point.

[Emily D. Baker]

Yeah.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

It would be more of a money loss for them not to.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. I think everyone's just ready to see it anyways. We have Tom Sports coming up next and you won't be disappointed.

[Tom Schwartz]

I like rocking the headphones. Is that cool?

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, I rock them.

[Tom Schwartz]

Hey, guys.

[Nick Viall]

Really? Feels like a podcast.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah. What's up, gang? Hi.

[Natalie]

What if we just whispered the entire

[Nick Viall]

podcast and did a little asmr?

[Tom Schwartz]

I like asmr. Yeah.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

ASMR was so hot for a while. There was.

[Natalie]

It was really trendy.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Is it? Not anymore.

[Natalie]

I. I don't know. I think people may have gotten a little uncomfortable with it.

[Tom Schwartz]

Oversaturated.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

It did too much of a good thing.

[Natalie]

Yeah. It got so quiet.

[Nick Viall]

Welcome back, Tom Schwartz.

[Tom Schwartz]

Hi, guys.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Tom Schwarz.

[Nick Viall]

How are you?

[Tom Schwartz]

Very happy. Familiar faces. I missed you guys.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

We missed you, mama. I know.

[Tom Schwartz]

So happy for you.

[Nick Viall]

Tom brought Nally flowers.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

He did. He brought me flowers. They're sitting right there. We should have brought them on set, but how. How nice is that? That?

[Tom Schwartz]

Thanks for having me back, you guys. Wait, Nick, did Lori predict you were going to have twins like eight month, eight years ago?

[Nick Viall]

She.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

She.

[Nick Viall]

But she told me she. I was going to have two boys.

[Tom Schwartz]

Oh, that's right.

[Nick Viall]

Which I told her Yesterday I was like, you know, very happy about the girls, but what the.

[Tom Schwartz]

I'm so happy for you guys. One time my mom was in South Florida, and at that point she had no kids and she went and got a palm reading. Did we talk about this last time? I don't know, but she predicted. She said, you're going to have. Have. Oh, no. She had my sister. She said, you're gonna have one more boy, and then you're gonna have triplet boys. And that's exactly what happened.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Your mom had triplets?

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

Billy Burton. Brandon, shout out to the triplets, Billy Burton Brand.

[Nick Viall]

Because I feel like twin twins is someone who's about to be a father of twins. It still feels like sci fi.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

You know, like, it's like triplets is like next level, but triplets, that is.

[Tom Schwartz]

My mom was like this to you guys. She's a little stick. She's so petite and small.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

And how did she do it?

[Tom Schwartz]

She. She got a C section.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But how did she, like.

[Nick Viall]

I don't need to walk into the steps. For sure.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

But how did she, like, survive triplets and having two other kids?

[Tom Schwartz]

She's just a champion. She's such a rock and an amazing human being. And she's just the best mom. I know everyone thinks their mom's the best mom. Mom.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

But really, really, she's just an amazing human being. I don't know how she's so resilient.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Did you ever have, like, FOMO with the twin? With the triplets? Were you ever like, ah, wow, you really. You guys are leaving me out.

[Tom Schwartz]

It is a magical thing because they have an unspoken language, like an ESP type of thing. This is very common with twins and triplets.

[Nick Viall]

Right. And they're. They're fraternal. Right. You can't have identical triplets, can you? Is that a dumb question?

[Tom Schwartz]

I think technically they're identical. Although they don't look identical anymore anymore. They look very different. Although they're starting to look a lot alike again.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Are they just, like, dyeing their hair different colors or like, it's so weird

[Tom Schwartz]

that they're like, they just turned 40. My brothers. I just read. I just. I'll always think of them as, like, 15.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

It's crazy.

[Tom Schwartz]

But yeah, man. I'm so happy for you guys.

[Nick Viall]

Thanks, man. And you were just in Florida taking care of mom?

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah, I was just in Florida taking care of mom. Florida, man. If there's any void in my life. I think we talk about that a lot. In the season, it's not having kids. I never thought I would be in my 40s. He's not having kids. I don't even have the white picket fence.

[Nick Viall]

How old are you?

[Tom Schwartz]

43.

[Nick Viall]

There's still time.

[Tom Schwartz]

I know, it's scary. That's like, I mean, we talk about that this season on the Valley. It's like I'm completely restarting my life over. My old life is gone. Like Tom Tom's for sale. Schwartz and Sandy's is closed. I'm not going to be a bootleg Lisa Vanderpump, which was the goal. You know, we had the liquor line. Like, things like I was charting in a certain direction. I was like, this is going to be my life now. And that's just gone.

[Nick Viall]

Do you feel good about that or feel like sad about that?

[Tom Schwartz]

What's that saying? I, I think I would have, I could have been happy. It's, man, it's such a brutal business. Have you ever invested in a bar or anything, you guys?

[Nick Viall]

Never.

[Tom Schwartz]

For me, it's a meat grinder of a business and it's really hard on your personal life. You inevitably drink more than you want to drink, by the way. I'm not whining or complaining. I chose to do this and I always. It was a dream of mine to have a bar in Los Angeles, but it chewed me up and it spit me out. You guys know most of that story. You don't have to.

[Nick Viall]

They really did cheer you up and spit you out.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah, we were chatting before and like, I, I, I, I had never turned so introverted in my entire life. I, I turned into a hermit. And that's one of the reasons I started the podcast. And I've been hosting more events and stuff, live events, like just coming back out of my shell, getting some color.

[Nick Viall]

And part was that partly because, you know, just like the online discourse or the criticism or just like the weight of, of, of the audience of which you've been so connected with over the years. It just. Did it get too much almost?

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah, it did. And like, well, my favorite part about it was the sense of community. Does that sound like a kiss ass? I love, like, I love being in there and meeting people from all walks of life and hearing about their stories like, like, oh my God, Vanderpump Rule has helped me get through like some of the darkest moments of my life. Cancer, stuff like that. That like, man, we had such a rich community and even the neighborhood is like really supporting us towards the end over in Franklin Village. But yeah, man, it just I lost so much money and time and energy. Like, I put everything I had into that place. And then it just became like the laughing stock of the entire Internet. And everyone went online and said they found worms with mustaches in their salads. Anyways, we don't have to rehash that. We're actually had a really good conversation with Sandoval yesterday.

[Nick Viall]

Did you?

[Tom Schwartz]

I talked to him for, like, an hour, FaceTimed him, and he's just doing so well right now. It just popped in my head. It was nice. He sounded just so good and optimistic.

[Nick Viall]

And would you say your. Your guys's friendship? I mean, obviously it sounds like you're still friends, but do you feel like there's been a little distance created?

[Tom Schwartz]

Yes.

[Nick Viall]

Between you two?

[Tom Schwartz]

We took a long break from each other. I mean, sns, not so. I know we've already talked about this. I don't want to do stale topics, but that. That almost destroyed our friendship. It really did. We took a long break from each other. But. But listen, it's water under the bridge now. We've worked through it. I have no lingering resentment. Can you see it on me?

[Nick Viall]

You look.

[Natalie]

No, you look great.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

I told you.

[Tom Schwartz]

Really?

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

He looks like he's got some. I don't know if it's the Florida tan, but, like, you've got some color.

[Tom Schwartz]

To you, Natalie, it's love.

[Natalie]

It's love.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

You're in love.

[Tom Schwartz]

I'm in love. Again. I'm loving, like, head over heels Gaga.

[Nick Viall]

Really?

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

When's the last time you hear that on the show?

[Tom Schwartz]

No, no, no, no. I don't know if. Have you guys met Kiana?

[Nick Viall]

No.

[Tom Schwartz]

Oh, you haven't? Why did I think you guys had met her? Yeah, her name's Kiana.

[Nick Viall]

Not Michelle.

[Tom Schwartz]

No. You guys, can we. I was so awkward in the beginning of the show. I'd like to make a public apology to the audience. The Bravo fan. I was so. I've never seen myself. I, like, I was a happy shell of myself. I kind of feel like I was maybe living a bit of a double life because I was going through the motions of, like, being a single guy and exploring dating. But, like, quietly behind the scenes, I was, like, starting to fall in love. Love with Kiana. And I was like, it's a pretty name. It's. It's a gorgeous name. I call her Kiki. Hi, Kiki. I don't know if she'll listen to this, but I love her madly. She's just like, love. She's devastatingly gorgeous, like, way out of my League. I'm just as confused as you guys. We're all confused.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

In a. In a sea of green flags, I'm the only red flag. Why would you date me?

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Wait, how did y' all meet?

[Tom Schwartz]

We had been friends for a long time. She came into, like, one of the last night. Schwartz and Sandy's was over open, and we were friends, like, casual, but we never, like, hung out or nothing romantic, really. And then over the past, like, six or seven months, it's really blossomed into this beautiful thing. Let's see. What picture should I show you?

[Nick Viall]

Anyone?

[Tom Schwartz]

I mean, let's see an appropriate one.

[Emily D. Baker]

Yeah.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Make sure you're both clothed.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

I mean, not. Not to brag, but she is a model.

[Emily D. Baker]

Yes, of course.

[Tom Schwartz]

But, like, that's, like, the least interesting thing about her. She's, like, ferociously funny. She's traveled the world, independent, super success. Oh, my God. She's my karma for all of my failures and past relationships that we don't have to dissect. I think she's my karma.

[Nick Viall]

How long have you been together?

[Tom Schwartz]

Like, I think we're coming up on eight months.

[Natalie]

Okay.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah. We're going to Cabo this weekend.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

What? To, like, are you gonna propose?

[Nick Viall]

Whoa.

[Tom Schwartz]

I mean, you just spoiled it.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Natalie, will you.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Emily D. Baker]

Will you?

[Tom Schwartz]

If you're listening, this would actually be kind of cool.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

I don't know. She might hate it.

[Nick Viall]

We've never done a propeller on this show.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Wait, what would be her reaction if you were to hypothetically, like, throw a drink in her face?

[Tom Schwartz]

Oh, my God. Listen, if anything, she's gonna throw a drink in my face, and I probably deserve it, but I'm so sweet and soft now, but I think I'm a little obnoxious. And I think I've sort of finally grown out of my puppy dog stick. Oh, my little sheep. Sheepish, dopey, kind of.

[Natalie]

Can I.

[Nick Viall]

How old is she?

[Tom Schwartz]

She's 27.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Tom Schwartz]

She's about to turn 28. Yeah, but, like, she's. She's so efficient. She's so cool. 43.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. 27.

[Tom Schwartz]

She's.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Can you do the math?

[Nick Viall]

16.

[Tom Schwartz]

We should have been on your show.

[Natalie]

You should have.

[Nick Viall]

You didn't need the show. You found it organically as.

[Tom Schwartz]

Dude, congrats, by the way. It was a big hit.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. Worked out. Natalie was a star.

[Tom Schwartz]

Is that. Did you guys conceptualize this?

[Nick Viall]

No. We wish. Yeah. Jen and Rebecca, like, a. At the Velvet Hammer, where the brainchilds behind the show. See, it makes so much sense. You know, I have found you Know, as someone who everyone's working on, you know, their reality TV idea.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah, we all got one.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

We all got one.

[Nick Viall]

I have learned that it's sometimes this most simplest premises are the ones that really pop. Can't be too confusing.

[Tom Schwartz]

Well, yours is certainly polarizing. It was like. Yeah, yeah. It was received just how I imagined everyone thought it would be received, but it was good.

[Nick Viall]

Would I do anything that wasn't, you know.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Is she gonna, like, potentially be on the next.

[Tom Schwartz]

That's the thing when you, like, when you're. When you're dating someone, you care about them on a deep level. I love this person. I'm madly in love. It's like you're protective over them because it's like if you're not all the way on the show, it can be kind of scary. And it's like, I'm trying to be protective of her privacy, but she's such a good sport about it, and she's got such a good head on her shoulders. She's so well rounded.

[Nick Viall]

How has this relationship fulfilled you in ways that maybe you just haven't been fulfilled before? Both, maybe, as a result, you know, just through the growth that you've done. And not to just put it in any. You know, I'm not assigning blame or comparison, but you are in this new stage of life, and obviously there's a brightness to you, an energy you feel.

[Tom Schwartz]

Thank you.

[Nick Viall]

You look happy and excited and optimistic.

[Natalie]

Chipper.

[Tom Schwartz]

Bubbly. I'm bubbly.

[Nick Viall]

And at 43 years old, despite your girlfriend being as beautiful as you feel that she is, and Amish as she is. But I. You know, I'm guessing that this excitement and love and enthusiasm is coming from a place of more than just looking at her.

[Tom Schwartz]

Of course.

[Nick Viall]

And how she makes you feel in this relationship.

[Tom Schwartz]

Exactly. Precisely. And listen, I hate the line. You'll see how that plays out this season because she was a good sport and she did me a solid, and she filmed a good amount, but she's nervous. It's scary. It's kind of getting thrown to the wolves, and all of a sudden. Remember the first time you. You had the public scrutinizing you? It feels like a loss of control. It's kind of scary.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

But she's like, I learned a lot

[Nick Viall]

of things about myself.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah, me too.

[Nick Viall]

Oh, my God. Yeah, I guess my face does look like that.

[Emily D. Baker]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's hard. How do you feel at this point, watching yourself? Are you guys cool?

[Nick Viall]

Watching myself, Yeah. I don't know. I'm trying not to I mean, we

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

watched Age of Attraction and I don't, I mean, we definitely were like critical of our, you know, why are we standing like that? Why are we, you know, do you're critical, hypercritical of yourself?

[Tom Schwartz]

Your posture.

[Nick Viall]

Exactly.

[Tom Schwartz]

Your voice?

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Yes. My God, yes.

[Tom Schwartz]

Well, I just, I feel, I don't, I don't know, it just feels right. That's an oversimplification, but it just feels right and we're aligned in our values and like we have such a good, healthy line of communication. And I just, I don't know, I was a bit of, I was a bit of a pots back in the day.

[Nick Viall]

In what way?

[Tom Schwartz]

Just, I think I was. Maybe some of the stereotypes about me were true. You know, I always resented people saying I'm spineless because I'm like deeply compassionate and I, I love to, maybe to a fault. I love putting myself in other people's shoes. I like to try to lift people up when they're down, even when they did it to themselves and they're dealing with the consequences of their own actions. Not an apologist. Not an apologist. Right.

[Nick Viall]

So you.

[Tom Schwartz]

I'm looking for.

[Nick Viall]

Do you feel like.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Yeah, yes.

[Emily D. Baker]

Right, right.

[Natalie]

Yes.

[Nick Viall]

Do you feel like you've learned how to stand up not only to yourself, but maybe even to a friend?

[Tom Schwartz]

Yes.

[Nick Viall]

At the risk of, of disappointment. Yes. Disappointment, definitely. And your girlfriend, you, you wanted kids. I mean, when Allie and I met, you know, a lot of people will say, what could you possibly have? I'm like, well, actually quite a lot. And, and, and the thing we had most in common when we met is that when I met, met now, we started dating. She was like, I just, I've lived a lot of life in my young years and I really want to be a young mom and I want to have children in my 20s. It wasn't like I need to have kids next week, but it was like, oh, great. I'm also, for the right person at the right time, excited and anxious to, to have children. And so that was a conversation we had fairly early in our career. Career in our career, fairly early in our relationship because, you know, I wanted to be honest with myself, could this relationship work? And that was a big part of my non negotiable priorities. I didn't want to start a relationship only to have to wait about something so important to me.

[Tom Schwartz]

I could, I'm totally aligned with you because we've had those hard conversations and we do have such a great line of communication and yes, we talk about that on the season. So I Don't know how much I want to get into it just because I don't want to ruffle feathers. I'm on a new show, guys.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

What?

[Tom Schwartz]

I feel so effing lucky. It was the most, like, organic transition ever to go from Vanderpump Rules onto the Valley. I'm already friends with everyone. And what are you guys thinking of the season so far?

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

It's good.

[Nick Viall]

Well, I said that like a.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

You did.

[Natalie]

It's good.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's fine.

[Nick Viall]

It's a slower burn. I think I was talking to one of your peers who felt a little self conscious about the lack of attention we were given the Valley so far this season.

[Tom Schwartz]

I saw that clip a la as

[Nick Viall]

a result of our Summer House discount course.

[Tom Schwartz]

I was just with Carl and Kyle last week and two weeks ago.

[Nick Viall]

I have questions for you.

[Tom Schwartz]

Carl's not a mess. Carl is thriving.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Carl is thriving. He has recovered.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, I. I do. Can I ask him Summer House questions?

[Tom Schwartz]

Of course.

[Nick Viall]

Really? Okay, great.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Wonderful.

[Tom Schwartz]

This is cool. I missed you guys.

[Nick Viall]

I really missed you.

[Tom Schwartz]

This is so.

[Nick Viall]

But to answer your question about the Valley, I'm enjoying it. I really like the conversations between Kristen and Luke, and obviously it's very relatable to us, I think, you know, I. We didn't have the same experience that Kristen and Luke are going through, but I think every young parent knows what it's like to transition from not having kids to that nine months of pregnancy and that adjustment to postpartum. And, you know, it's just. It's a different line of communication.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

A lot of pathways you gotta navigate,

[Nick Viall]

a lot of conversations you have to have.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

It also is a lot lighter without Jax.

[Nick Viall]

We like that. But I imagine, though, it's a chance. I think as audience members, we talk about this a lot on the show and as it relates to the Summer House, I think it's. And I've been no fan of Jax and certainly no supporter. But like, we do, like, we love drama and there's a toxicity that we. Yeah, we want to critique it. We'll call it out. But it is what it is. What brings us in. And I think. Do you feel like the cast has had to learn how to live without Jax in terms of making TV and relying on him for what seemed to be just always bringing the toxicity. Someone who comes from a Bachelor franchise is always like, oh, everyone wanted the villain to leave. And everyone would be like, oh, that person's gone. And then I was like, well, be careful because someone else has to replace them and they don't even Realize that, you know, do you guys feel that loss with Jacks?

[Tom Schwartz]

It's funny, on the way over here, I. My car's been in the shop for, like, a month, and I was scrolling. I was looking at chicks in the office, weekly reviews of shows, and I forgot what they graded. The Valley, but they said the apex predator is gone and no one knows what to do. And I'm like, well, first of all, I'll give Jax a shout out because he's been sober for one year and three months now. And I know he's been Mr. Work in progress forever, but, like, he's actually been putting in, like, noticeable changes. And really, I don't know from Brittany's standpoint, I don't know if she's gonna be rolling her eyes, but from a friend standpoint, I gotta give Jax a shout out. He's really been putting work into himself. But, yes, it's weird. It was weird in the beginning to be on a show with someone that was the second person, third person I met in Los Angeles. We lived together, you know, for better or for worse. We're family. And, yeah, it was weird in the beginning, but just watching it back, I don't know. I'm very thoroughly entertained. Aside from when I'm on the screen, I'm loving the show.

[Nick Viall]

I'm fascinated with Jesse and Michelle's dynamic with the divorce and being young parents, I couldn't imagine going through divorce with a young child and having to watch my former partner, even if I hated him, you know, like, bond with someone else and then have to watch their new partner parent your child. And it would just be very difficult not to see red. And so I truly empathize with both of them. Regardless of what you think of the characters, I'm very connected to that story. I'm always fascinated by that.

[Tom Schwartz]

Me too. I'm so invested, and I'm, like, friends with all them. But I'm watching it back. It's just. Yeah, like, I love. I love Lacey. Me and Michelle became really good friends this past year.

[Nick Viall]

But.

[Tom Schwartz]

But, like, I love Lacy and Jesse's dynamic. She's also his karma.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Yeah, it seems like it.

[Nick Viall]

If you were to have actually dated Michelle, do you think Jesse would have cared?

[Tom Schwartz]

But then she would have never dated Dr. Dre.

[Natalie]

That's so true.

[Tom Schwartz]

Can you imagine? There's a reality in which she chose me over Dr. Dre. I'm just kidding.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Could you imagine?

[Tom Schwartz]

Just kidding?

[Nick Viall]

Like, is that a thing?

[Natalie]

Michelle and Dr. Dre.

[Tom Schwartz]

Me and Michelle never had anything aside from just a platonic fun.

[Nick Viall]

French. I know. The doctor.

[Tom Schwartz]

The Dr. Dre, is it? I haven't talked to Michelle. I've reached out to her because I thought it was an AI generated article which go viral like crazy on Facebook.

[Emily D. Baker]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

But I don't know. Did you guys get verification?

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

I mean, it looked pretty verifiable to me. They were holding hands, so didn't look.

[Nick Viall]

And there was those Quentin Tarantino, you know, rumors in the past. So I was like, maybe she just roams in elite circles.

[Tom Schwartz]

We were joking about this. I was in Ohio while this past weekend, and someone sent me a meme and it said, michelle has the craziest pipeline ever. Jesse to Quentin Tarantino to the honey guy to almost Tom Schwartz to Dr. Dre.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

And I was like, so true.

[Tom Schwartz]

Just kidding. If she sees it, Michelle.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

We're discussing Tom Schwartz to Dr. Dre.

[Nick Viall]

We're obviously very fascinated with the Summer House drama of it all. And obviously, you know, everyone's comparing it to Scandival. And so, like, you're almost weirdly adjacently connected. I think even, I think even some of the fans have tried to blame you. Oh, yeah, you curse because last season, if people don't remember, you were like, this ain't gonna last, guys. You know, And I think it's not your fault. I want, I want you to know, despite what the Internet says, that felt

[Tom Schwartz]

like a nice goodwill hunting moment right there.

[Nick Viall]

Right. It's not your fault.

[Tom Schwartz]

Thank you.

[Nick Viall]

It's not your fault.

[Tom Schwartz]

Did I jinx the cat?

[Nick Viall]

It's not your fault.

[Natalie]

No, I, I think if it happens to the Southern hospitality kids too, and you're the there, then that's an issue

[Nick Viall]

since, since you're feeling vulnerable right now in Alban and Odyssey, do you feel like West Wilson has a little bit of Thomas Schwarz in him of, I'll say, 10 years ago? And I have described west, who I've gotten to know. I, I, I mean, I don't know what he thinks about these days. We've been a little critical of, of his behavior. I hope he's okay with it. But I've described him as a kind of a weak man, really. And, and I've described it in a sense because, like, you know, he does this whole, like, aw, shucks kind of bit. I would never. And you know, again, he seems, like, very in tune with his feelings. Probably has done some therapy. You can see it.

[Tom Schwartz]

You can tell Wesley he's done the work.

[Nick Viall]

And I feel like there's this kind of new kind of guy in the Zeitgeist. Of modern dating and pop culture where they can center their feelings and use that therapy talk. And at the end of the day, there's a level of weakness because instead of just being direct and respecting people's, they center their feelings. And you have this guy in west who, who kind of just kind of wanted to pretend that Sierra wasn't trying to communicate something like how important this friendship means to him and what this friendship was about for her, which was like a stepping stone into a relationship. And then he just kind of always focused on him. And I don't think he's a bad guy. I don't think he meant to hurt anyone. But I think that is a bit of a cop out for like just not honestly taking kind of responsibility for her actions. And, and like you kind of talked about how maybe some of your, those, those criticisms were true.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Do you feel like there's a little bit of that or do you, or do you have like, do you have empathy for West? Are you critical of West? How do you, how do you see it?

[Tom Schwartz]

Well, I hate piling on people when they're down.

[Nick Viall]

He knows we don't want to pile on. Just we're breaking.

[Tom Schwartz]

I think there's a clear code violation. Right. Ethical bro girl code violation. Like, it's messed up. And you just like when you're what when you're in it and you like, you're, you're feeling the fear feelings. We, you can't control how you feel, but you can control how you respond to those feelings. And I, I, I wonder what those conversations. Because I'm friends with Amanda and West, I still love them. I, I, I don't. I hate piling on them. But like they know they, I, I just.

[Nick Viall]

Do you think they know they up, so to speak?

[Tom Schwartz]

They seemed a little defensive. Like I remember when they released the joint statements, which I didn't like. I was, man, they, they were just kind of poor taste not to, not to pile on. I hated those joint statements. But I don't know. I don't know. I just, I don't know. I don't see it going to this. It's like, it's just, it's almost never worth it when you know you're going to alienate or violate a friend. It just seems, it doesn't it just feel jinxed or doomed? Yeah, I don't know.

[Nick Viall]

We were talking, I mean what we're hearing about how Amanda and Wes might feel and how they may go about defending themselves. Amanda almost sounds how Sam Mandeval sounded, which was like almost kind of very defiant as opposed to like remember back in the day and everyone's like just, just say you're sorry and move the on and just be like, you know, and Tom was always like, yeah, but. He always had the but. And I, you know, I, you know, it's just like I have empathy for all you guys because I think, you know, fans sometimes we're very fascinated with the TV show and I think sometimes, you know, I honestly, you know, you don't have to answer the question. I sometimes to want wonder does even younger Tom Schwartz, is he really the type of guy who would throw a drink in a woman's face or is he just like, you know, you're making tv And I just kind of wonder if sometimes do. Do you guys who have, who've made careers showing up season after season lose yourself a little bit? Do you guys, do you feel like sometimes you've lost yourself in not knowing when like the TV character stops and the human, human begins and like were they almost over connected in a way where. And then, and then you can't speak on things because you're not sure if you're like speaking about production away. You're not supposed to speak on it. But you, you have fans coming and making assumptions and, and it kind of gets clouded because that's how it felt like Tom was where it was like, but there's this thing I need you to know and, and as opposed to being like, yeah, it doesn't really matter, just say you're sorry.

[Emily D. Baker]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

I mean so essentially saying that sometimes like the subconscious conscious pressure of knowing that you have to bring it sort of compromise your integrity. Almost Sure. I don't think so. At least certainly not. I, I know better than never self produced because when you do it comes off horribly and they can see it a mile away. But I'm sure at some points you're like, yeah, you're like, oh my God. Because you know what works and doesn't work after being on TV for 10 years, but you don't want to be too self aware about. No one wants to watch someone who's overly self aware.

[Natalie]

Right.

[Tom Schwartz]

That's no fun. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I don't know, there's times where maybe, yeah, maybe I did have some identity crisis in the past. I'm like, is really, is that me? Is that who I am? I remember I used to get so insulted when I would do events and people would be like, you're just like you are on tv. And I'm like, don't you say that? Take it back right now. Because it's like I thought I was kind of likable, but I'm. I'm still always shocked that people still show me so much love. Truly, like when I host events and I'm traveling, traveling, I get a lot of love and I'm like, you guys, did you not watch the show? That was kind of pathetic.

[Natalie]

I think what you have is like this, there's like this earnestness, at least on tv, where it's like you're making decisions that so many times in Vanderpump rules. I was like, why the are you doing that? But there's a thing where you're like, you, you have this like charmingness of just like kind of what you're saying of not like self producing. It seems like genuine that you're kind of just like whoops. Versus like sometimes with Sandoval, I think he like, his energy comes off as more of like he's intentionally doing this. And I wonder if that's it.

[Tom Schwartz]

I don't know.

[Natalie]

I don't know.

[Nick Viall]

I don't know.

[Natalie]

If Sandoval said to like, it might come across that way. I don't know.

[Tom Schwartz]

I love watching Tom on tv. I know, I'm partial because I've known

[Nick Viall]

him for so long, but he's a TV sir.

[Tom Schwartz]

He like gives 1000%. I know he's working on a cool project now. I don't even know what it's about, but like, I just know he's out there giving 1000% every day. Like everything else in his life has disappeared and he's so immersed in that moment. I love that about him. When he does a show like on Traders and stuff.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

And he was great.

[Tom Schwartz]

He's always, wait, what's your guys favorite Bravo show right now?

[Nick Viall]

Somewhere else. Yeah, it's just like the relationship dynamics and it's. I think that again, it's why we. I hate to say we love the scandal, but like it's. It's easier to watch this group of friends and judge them and critique them and look at our own lives. And I think we have. All other people want to admit it. We know what it's like to be abandoned by friends or let on by friends. We've even been the bad friend, you know, we have been the bad partner. We have been, you know, all these things that all these people represent in these dynamics. And that's why, you know, whether it's the Valley or Summer House, I mean, I think Summer House is the best show on tv that I think represents kind of modern dating culture, which I think is. Is fascinating for me as someone who's, like, interested in that stuff. How's Kyle doing?

[Tom Schwartz]

He's doing great. He's crushing it. It's like, I know everyone was so. They. He got a good, healthy roast when he decided to start DJing in his 40s. But I'm so happy he did. I'm so happy he didn't listen to the audience because now he's crushing it. He's selling out shows in Chicago at Tao and stuff, and it's like, it's another great way to promote lover boy. I think lover boy is, like, kind of crushing right now.

[Nick Viall]

Well, with you, Amanda, you know, like, didn't. The graphic designer part didn't really help, but.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah, I just.

[Nick Viall]

Was Kyle and West ever that closer friends? Like, if you're. If you had to guess, because I'm guessing you don't know. How do you think west justified the way he moved as it related to his friendship with Kyle?

[Tom Schwartz]

The love must have been undeniable. Right. Because it's not just a sexual thing. He's like. I don't think he's trying to get his rocks off. I don't know I can say that, but I don't think.

[Emily D. Baker]

Right.

[Nick Viall]

Because he hasn't seen. It sounded like he was already getting the rocks off.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah. Yeah, he was. He's. Wes is. It's weird because I'm friends with Wes, but I don't really know exactly how he moves. Is he a bit of a playboy? A little bit.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

He's got a bit of a roster.

[Tom Schwartz]

He's a romantic.

[Natalie]

That have sent their.

[Nick Viall]

It seems like he was enjoying being a single guy making some money in a big city, which is, like, why it was like, even with Amanda not in the equation, it was more like just. Just let's see her now. It's, like, not happening. And stop trying to be friends with someone who's been very clear that, like, she wants to be friends first with the person that she wants to marry. So, like, stop pretending she didn't say that.

[Tom Schwartz]

I think. I think in trying to, like, be sweet, he unintentionally.

[Nick Viall]

See, that's the thing. So much worse that try to be sweet but unintentional part. That's the part I don't buy. And I don't think he is. Yeah. I just. There's. He's not stupid. And you. You can't be that stupid. And emotionally.

[Tom Schwartz]

He is emotionally intelligent.

[Nick Viall]

Right?

[Tom Schwartz]

We all agree that.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

Wes is pretty sharp.

[Nick Viall]

So that. But he pretends to be emotionally confused, you know, and it's just not enough. It doesn't take a lot of strength to say, I'm not ready for. Ready for a relationship. It takes a lot more to show you're not ready for a relationship with the person who says, I want to be in a relationship, you know, And I think he. He does the thing where it's just like, well, I'm not ready. And then he just counts the flirting and the flirting. Those moments where it's just like for someone who's in Sierra shoes, is looking for hope and she's looking for a sign and she's juggling. I've set this boundary with this guy, and I'm trying to communicate, and there's no way he would listen to what I'm saying and then act that way if he didn't also mean it and if he wasn't also confused about his feelings. Feelings. And he pretended to be confused. And in that confusion, she found hope. And I just don't think he didn't. He wasn't that confused.

[Tom Schwartz]

Well, I don't think he's a malicious guy. Just. Maybe we don't have to get into semantics.

[Nick Viall]

Selfish.

[Natalie]

Careless.

[Nick Viall]

Selfish.

[Tom Schwartz]

Maybe a little selfish. You know, he's. He's got a blooming career, and he's out hustling and he's having fun. And I. I don't know.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

But you've been friends with Kyle. Kyle since a long time.

[Tom Schwartz]

Probably 10 years.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

10 years?

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah. We don't see each other a ton, but, like, I still consider him a very close friend. I love Kyle.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Do you feel whether. I can't imagine he's asked you to, but do you feel like you have to pick sides or does he just. Do you. Are you just.

[Tom Schwartz]

No, he's sweet. Like, Kyle is very emotionally intelligent. I don't know if he always comes off on TV because we're always drunk a lot of the time, and he's having fun and stuff, but, like, he's sharp. Like, he's a CEO of his business, and he's a very sharp guy. And he's just. I love what he said. Like when. Remember they. They did that interview when he was on the street walking his dogs, and he's just like. The first thing he said was, even in spite of this whole thing and how twisted it could. It is, he's like, I'm just worried about Amanda because. Yeah, I know she struggles with depression and, like, two people are ruthless online.

[Nick Viall]

It's scary.

[Tom Schwartz]

I remember what it Was like, there's no.

[Nick Viall]

It's not like, oh, hey, Amanda's making it. Bad decision she might regret. And. And I. We should def. You know, she deserves some criticism too. Like, she's a horrible bitch who deserves to burn in hell. Is like. It's like, whoa, can't we just. Jesus, she can't. Like, damn, she can't make a mistake.

[Natalie]

Well, that's also the thing with, like, west, though, and we've talked about this, is that Kyle is the one who got. I mean, maybe kind of fucked over, and then he's still defending Amanda publicly, and then west, like, isn't actually really saying anything, and he's the one that's

[Nick Viall]

like, I have a question for you, Kyle. You know, he's gotten his. A fair share of criticism over the years. There's a lot of people who said, well, we don't really feel bad for Kyle. We feel bad for Sierra. There's no excuse for calling your wife a.

[Tom Schwartz]

Or.

[Nick Viall]

Or. Or any woman for that matter, if you're a guy. So to make that clear. But I can't help but wonder, do you think there's any truth if someone were to say, as a fan, I'm just a fan. Hey, as a fan, this command of it all made me wonder if maybe, again, not to excuse what he said, but has Kyle in any way been covering for Amanda over the years where he was willing to take some relationship heat that maybe he felt even that she deserved, but he. He. He was protecting her. And now you're maybe seeing I've had this exact hunch.

[Tom Schwartz]

Well, I feel bad saying that because I love them both. Wait, now I feel bad. Bad. But I've had this hunch before. I don't know. I feel bad gossiping about them. We're doing a podcast. It's a safe place, right?

[Natalie]

Yeah. Yeah. No one's gonna hear it.

[Nick Viall]

And. And we're not. Listen, we. We don't think either of them are horrible people.

[Tom Schwartz]

Not at all.

[Nick Viall]

And I. And I hope there's a path forward for all of them. And I hope this is something that she will look back and be like, yeah, maybe I would have moved differently. I have empathy for the position Amanda's in. Not to excuse her, but I can just see, based off everything that's played out, how she got to this decision, whether it's a good decision or not. Like, people make these decisions in a vacuum, man.

[Tom Schwartz]

The proximity effect is a powerful thing in psychology, right? Just spending that much time around each other, like you're already pre vetted you feel safe, drinks are flowing. Not normalizing what happened with the situation, but like every show, it happens on every show, every group. But not just show every group of friends I've ever had. Inevitably someone ends up hooking up with someone in the friend group. And yeah, it's a powerful thing.

[Nick Viall]

Anyways, answer that question. Wait.

[Tom Schwartz]

So sorry, I got distracted.

[Nick Viall]

Kyle. Has Kyle been defending Amanda over the years in ways that maybe we as fans didn't see?

[Tom Schwartz]

I think out of respect and love for his wife. Yeah, at times he. He didn't vocalize. Some things he was frustrated about, but not to excuse his.

[Nick Viall]

And do you feel like if the audience heard that, they would. It wouldn't just be like Kyle's bullshit sad story. It would be like, you know what? He's got a point.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah, I do. I do.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Switching gears a little bit. Did you watch VPR reboot?

[Tom Schwartz]

I did. I.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

You did.

[Tom Schwartz]

I thought it was great.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

You did.

[Tom Schwartz]

And I've got to hang out with a lot of the cast. Like Natalie. I interviewed her when she dropped her new song. I think they, I, I get it. Where were you guys at with it? I really enjoyed it.

[Nick Viall]

I couldn't Natalie struggle with it? I was, you know, I, I watched

[Natalie]

it a little bit, honestly. Like, I feel like, because I watched vpr, like I started a while ago and now it's also like, weirdly, like, linked into my job and stuff. And I just have like, such a connection with like, that struggle. And so watching the reboot and also watching people like my age to be in the reboot is like a brain break for me. So I have a hard time with it. But that's really specific to me.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's growing on me because I see that they have, there's, there's roots there. They have real authentic friendships. They hang out outside of work. They're always in sir. And they're all chasing dreams, starting Only fans. But, yeah, I dig it.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Okay.

[Nick Viall]

I still think it's a Sandoval could make a killing on Only fans.

[Tom Schwartz]

I do too. It's Tom. You. I don't know Victor is going to be Tom.

[Nick Viall]

I think he would go a thousand percent.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

He is in a relationship, so.

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah, well, he would do it.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

But yeah, I dig it. I like the new. I'm here to vouch for the new Vanderpump Rules. And I'm excited.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Even though they were like, who is Katie Maloney? We don't even know who that is.

[Tom Schwartz]

That was a little spicy.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Okay.

[Tom Schwartz]

That was a stray, as they call them.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

That Was a stray.

[Tom Schwartz]

I. I think it did.

[Nick Viall]

Not all of them know, you know?

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Tom Schwartz]

It was an honest mistake, I don't think. Was it snarky when he said that? I don't think it was. Was Katie. Katie. Katie retaliated. I think she did.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Yeah. She showed up. She did, yeah. I do think maybe it was a little snark, but, you know, I know

[Nick Viall]

you have to get going. We're getting the. The light, as they say. But before we send you off on your way, can you. You set up the rest of the season of the Valley? What can we look forward to? Yeah, why should people watch?

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah. Well, this is the first. I've always been in a relationship when I've been on tv, and I don't know how much of it the cameras caught. Of course I remember everything we filmed, but, like, this is the first time in real time I'm falling in love. You get to catch me falling in

[Nick Viall]

love in real time.

[Tom Schwartz]

Thanks. And I'm starting my whole life anew, which is kind of terrifying because, listen, as you get into your 40s, like, unrealized potential gets more and more risky.

[Nick Viall]

Right.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's just. And it's scary, but, like, I also just feel absolutely dialed in and more motivated than I've ever been in my life. So I'm excited about life. I think it's a really good season. It's a healing season. But I'm scared people will hear that, Nick, and think it's boring, because it's not. It's just a healing season. Like, a lot of people went through a lot of traumatic things and some dark things.

[Nick Viall]

Listen, I just think that's maybe just reality tv. We have a big bit of a problem. I think also, just as the Internet, I think we are, too. Like, it's just a toxic world out there, and we're expecting toxicity. Even we say that we don't. But I think we have to push through and we have to watch. You know, we can't complain for an entire season how dark the Valley is and then have it become lighter, only to complain that it's boring. Like, it's like, we have to. We. And I speak for myself, sometimes we have to pick a lane.

[Natalie]

I personally could watch watch you guys go to all Seasons any day.

[Tom Schwartz]

That's really sweet. You guys are being so sweet. Thank you for the love and thanks for being diplomatic about it. Yeah, it's. It's. It's a healing season. And. But there's lots of great, like, nuances, and I love just exploring other people's relationships, seeing them be first time mothers and fathers and. Yeah, man, it's good.

[Nick Viall]

There's a few.

[Tom Schwartz]

There's a few good, really good cast trips that I'm excited about.

[Nick Viall]

Do you have a difficult time understanding Janet's point of view? At times I do. Okay.

[Tom Schwartz]

It's weird because I've been friends with Janet a long time. Long before, like, long time.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Tom Schwartz]

We're friends. I love Janet and Jason. I know. But I just, it's. I'm catching up on all the lore and I'm.

[Natalie or Female Co-host]

Oh, she was like a fan of

[Tom Schwartz]

the show, but we were friends. We hung out. Like we. She'll never live that down, by the way. Janet's never living. Janet the fan. No, I did.

[Nick Viall]

She kind of gives, man, on the show.

[Tom Schwartz]

Do you guys like have. Wait, has Janet been on the show? Yeah, she's been on the show. Jason too.

[Natalie]

No.

[Tom Schwartz]

Oh. But yeah, man, she didn't bring him. Listen, it's a good season. It's a healing season. Not boring, healing, nuanced, not boring at all.

[Nick Viall]

Layered stuff. It's in no way boring.

[Tom Schwartz]

Okay, cool. Thank you. I agree. I really am enjoying it. Aside from when I'm on the. And I come out of my shell too. I apologize for being very, very awkward in the beginning. Just watching myself, I'm like, dude, what? Yeah, it's so hard. It's like one of the hardest beginnings of any season ever for me.

[Nick Viall]

It's like an old season vet coming out of retirement. You know, you gotta like take seal little bit to warm back up, you

[Tom Schwartz]

know, I am a rescue dog for sure.

[Natalie]

Like McQueen in Cars 3.

[Nick Viall]

Yes.

[Emily D. Baker]

Okay.

[Nick Viall]

Thomas Schwartz, thanks for coming by, man.

[Tom Schwartz]

Love you guys.

[Nick Viall]

Love you back. Anything else you want to promote? You got a podcast?

[Tom Schwartz]

Yeah, I got a podcast. Detox Retox every Wednesday now, not Tuesdays anymore. And yeah, we got some cool stuff coming up. And I got big dreams for the podcast. It's only been a year, but it's hard. People think. You just pick up a mic and start talking. Which?

[Nick Viall]

Grind, bro.

[Tom Schwartz]

Dude, it's a grind.

[Nick Viall]

We appreciate you. We love you and thank you guys for listening. Thank you to all. Our guest, Tom Sports and Emily D. Baker and we appreciate you. We will see you back tomorrow. We got Liz from Real Housewives of Rhode island. Super excited to talk with her. We loving the entire cast in the show and we got a lot more in store for you tomorrow, so be sure to join us. Thanks for listening. Bye.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly a producer or co-host)]

Foreign.

[Nick Viall]

Is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing a budgeting game. Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates prices and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.