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- [00:00]
Host 1
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Host 2
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Host 1
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Host 2
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- [00:52]
Victoria
You're crazy.
- [01:03]
Host 2
How's.
- [01:04]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Hi, I'm Sarah. I'm 25 and I cut him off after five perfect dates, but I don't
- [01:09]
Host 2
know if I should have five perfect dates. Tell me about these five perfect dates.
- [01:14]
Sarah (Caller 1)
So I met him on Hinge, as one does, and we went on five dates. He planned them all out. We had fun on them. He was funny, smart. He's 28. I'm 25. So I liked the age difference. After the fifth date he, he didn't plan out the six date and he had planned out most of the others. I planned out like a couple of them, but he was good at planning ahead. And then after the fifth one, I noticed him texting back like a little bit slower and not planning the next one. And I just felt like I, I like felt a shift. Even though I hadn't met, even though I hadn't seen him and seen him in person. And so I didn't want to end up spiraling like I do with other guys.
- [01:59]
Host 2
So I texted him, slow down, slow down, slow down. You had met him in person on these five dates, right?
- [02:08]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yes.
- [02:09]
Host 2
But after the fifth date you hadn't seen him and you. And you told yourself that he was pulling back.
- [02:17]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yes.
- [02:18]
Host 2
Okay, okay. All right, all right.
- [02:19]
Sarah (Caller 1)
And so then I feel like sometimes with guys when I start feel them pulling back, I, I start spiraling. And so with this guy, I was like, I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to cut it off.
- [02:30]
Host 2
What's the difference?
- [02:34]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Well, then I didn't have to wait for a text back from him.
- [02:38]
Host 2
And when you spiral, what does that look like? Just out of curiosity,
- [02:43]
Sarah (Caller 1)
checking my phone a lot, thinking about all the texts I had sent and what I could have sent instead if I did something wrong, you know?
- [02:55]
Host 2
Okay.
- [02:56]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Thinking too much, like, in my head.
- [02:59]
Host 2
Yeah. And you. What did you send him when you cut it off?
- [03:02]
Sarah (Caller 1)
I had texted him and said, do you want to hang out on Friday? It was like Wednesday or something. He texted back like a while later, like the same day. It was like seven hours later. And said that he couldn't on Friday and he didn't offer a. A.
- [03:20]
Host 2
A follow up. Yeah.
- [03:21]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah. Follow up date. So I texted him and said, actually, I've been thinking and I've realized this isn't what I'm looking for. I wish you the best. Whatever his response was, that's too bad to hear. I had a lot of fun with you, but I'm in a. A similar headspace. And he asked, why the change of heart? And I said, I'm looking for something with some more consistency, which was kind of dumb because he had been consistent. And then I asked him, why the change of heart? And he said, because he told me
- [03:57]
Host 2
you didn't want to hang out with me.
- [03:59]
Sarah (Caller 1)
He said, I realized that I. I'm not able to give you, like, the time that I. That you deserve to have something like that. Hmm. And then I was like, okay. But then I ended up texting him, okay. So I texted him again like. Like two weeks later. And I said. I said, or like, how about if we get drinks again? And he said, I'm really sorry. I had a lot of fun with you. It's not about you, but I don't want to end up giving mixed signals again. And I don't have, like, the space in my life right now for something more serious, even though I didn't say I wanted something more serious necessarily. So I get where he's coming from.
- [04:45]
Host 2
I want to see a picture of this guy.
- [04:48]
Sarah (Caller 1)
I can show you.
- [04:49]
Host 2
All right.
- [04:50]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Wait. Oh, yeah, I have one actually.
- [04:52]
Host 2
Handsome. Yeah. Handsome guy.
- [04:54]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah, he's pretty handsome.
- [04:58]
Host 2
Well, I mean, listen, as far as this guy goes, I mean. Yeah.
- [05:04]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah, it.
- [05:05]
Host 2
I think we're. I think it's time to move on, probably. I'm not even in a position to say, oh, your. Your intuition was wrong. It's probably not great that you did it the way you did. No. You know yourself, you've been in these positions. It's self preservation. Right? Like, you. Like you said, like, you know, that you've. You were feeling the feeling, whatever this feeling was, you know, how in the past it would just. If you'd go bananas, you know, you just. Yeah, he didn't want to do that anymore. You sent him a message. Now, there's a small chance that when you send him that message, you caught him off guard a little bit. It seemed a little bit like, hey, do you want to hang out? No. All right. This isn't working for me. It's probably a bit of a. Like, two different. Very. Two very different messages. And then he could have responded, just saving face, you know, it's not working for me either.
- [06:08]
Sarah (Caller 1)
He's probably not going to respond and be like, wait, no, I'm in love with you. Well, I don't expect that.
- [06:13]
Host 2
I'm not in love with you. He could have just said, that's really disappointing to hear. Let me know if you change your mind. Yeah, he could have said that. I've said that before.
- [06:22]
Sarah (Caller 1)
You know, I'll tell him he should say that.
- [06:24]
Host 2
No, but he didn't, so that's okay. And then you did follow up two weeks later, and he declined. So, like, that's, you know, I think it's time to move on.
- [06:34]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah.
- [06:35]
Host 2
And so I guess more than anything, you probably didn't make, like, a huge mistake. You know, I mean, your. Your. Your messages were a little goofy, but, like, nothing. Nothing you couldn't come back from if he really wanted to. But more importantly, how do we avoid you spiraling in the future? Because almost certainly no matter who you go on a date with next, there's gonna be a period where he. Whoever he is, is gonna, like, pull back a little bit. You know, That's a normal thing. When you were dating him, did you. Did you immediately go off the apps?
- [07:18]
Sarah (Caller 1)
No, I went on one more date. After our first date with someone else, I tried going on dates with other people because I feel like my friends have said it helps to go on dates with other people so you aren't thinking too much about the one person. But, like, I just.
- [07:35]
Host 2
Maybe. Maybe. Yeah.
- [07:37]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah.
- [07:38]
Host 2
Depends on the person. But my point is, is that everyone's doing that. So even though you're having five consistent dates before you, like, have the talk of, are we exclusive but not boyfriend and girlfriend yet? Which is what you can seem to do these days. You know, he's. He's also going on dates, you know, or these people will go on dates. And so that's not to tell you that to freak. You out or have, you know, but like, it's just normal nowadays, I feel like. Or just in general for people to not be as totally linearly consistent, you know. That's great.
- [08:07]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah, true.
- [08:09]
Host 2
So how do you avoid freaking out? Because it's, you know, a freak out is always going to feel like a freak out to whoever you're freaking out to, and they won't have the context as to why you're freaking out. Don't give them a reason to be like, whoa, no, okay, hold on.
- [08:22]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Well. And so then I try to tell myself I'm like, I don't really actually know them. It's only been, like, whatever, three, four, or five dates.
- [08:29]
Host 2
Yeah. Which is all true.
- [08:31]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah, it is all true. And it kind of helps a little bit, but, like, it doesn't fully.
- [08:36]
Host 2
In what way? You're just. You're just locked in. In your mind. You're kind of obsessing.
- [08:41]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah.
- [08:42]
Host 2
So, like, what are you obsessing about?
- [08:45]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Why they might not be responding. Like, thinking, like, if they had mentioned that they, I don't know, go to the gym after work. I'm like, okay, well, he should be home by now. Like, so he probably should be responding by now. Or just, like, thinking about. Just giving it too much energy and thinking about it all too much.
- [09:05]
Host 2
I'm trying to figure out how to say this to you.
- [09:07]
Sarah (Caller 1)
You can say it that way.
- [09:08]
Host 2
No, I know. I mean, I'm just trying. I want to say it in a way that's, like, helpful. This is not meant to be a. This is not about you. Like, men are just not that complicated. You know what I'm saying? In the sense that they're either super into you or they're not, you know?
- [09:25]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah.
- [09:26]
Host 2
And the energy. You're analyzing yourself to a degree that they're not analyzing when you're going on these dates. It sounds like you're very much. All right. What are they gonna find out about me? What's wrong with me? What don't they like about me? What did I say wrong on a date? You know, I don't think men get the ick quite like the ladies do. It's possible men do get the ick. I don't think we're quite as fickle. Like, you could trip and fall and he'll still go out with you, you know?
- [09:56]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah.
- [09:56]
Host 2
And it seems like sometimes the boys aren't allowed to look a little clumsy. It's like right now you're saying I don't really know them. Like, you're saying it after you feel the anxiety and the panic. And then you're trying to talk yourself off the ledge by, you know, be like, I know I feel these, these anxious feelings and I'm freaking out, but like, I don't really know them. It's just about rejection. You know, it's just about like not being accepted or, oh, it's happening again. You know, it's, it's not about, you're not, you're not logically thinking about the stranger not liking you. So it's hard for you to like that line of thought isn't stopping you or helping you from getting out of that space. Like, I feel like a psychologist would be like, your frontal lobe is, you know, whatever the. But it's more about like you just kind of coming in with a frame of mind early on in the dating time. You really just have to really almost disconnect a little bit. Right now you're going on other dates with guys to distract you from him. Mr. Right. You know, the guy, you know, like, you know.
- [11:14]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah.
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Host 2
And if you, if you, if you're doing that in that mindset, you're only making it worse. Right? Like I, you know, it's like when you, if you get your heart broken, you know, and then your friends tell you to go, you're like, oh, I gotta get back out there. If you start dating too soon after a bad breakup, it just makes you miss that person even more. It doesn't help you, right? Because then you're just comparing. You know, most dates you go on, you're not into them, you know, like, Right. Most dates are like, yeah, here's another person.
- [11:45]
Host 1
Great.
- [11:47]
Host 2
And unless you, you know, meet someone you are really excited about, which is already rare, you know, then that just makes you pine over the person. You're heartbroken. And in your case, like, that's not much different. You're not heartbroken, but you are excited about someone already. So dating, going on dates to forget about the person you're excited about is only going to make you more excited. Unless.
- [12:09]
Sarah (Caller 1)
That's actually a good point. Yeah.
- [12:11]
Host 2
Unless you get, unless you get lucky with like, oh my God, he's. I'm also excited about him, but just like ye just some guy buying you a, a meal or a drink just to only find out that he's super into like the Marvel Universe is like not gonna, like, it's not gonna help.
- [12:28]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Well, I feel like that's how. What happened? The date I went on after my first date with the five date guy, I went on a date with someone else and I just was like, oh, I like that other guy so much more. And then it just makes me. And then I just start thinking about him more, I guess. Also, my thing on dates is kind of separate, but is when I'm on dates, I just kind of talk a lot when I'm nervous, and so I'll often lead the conversation, like, maybe a bit too much. I don't. I feel like that's also who I am as a person. I'm not like.
- [12:58]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [12:59]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Do you ever kind of, like, assertive
- [13:00]
Host 2
and, like, do you ever. Have you ever acknowledged your nerves on a date? Just feel like, honestly, I get a little nervous on dates and I talk too much and with a little bit of vulnerability.
- [13:11]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Uh, no. I could do that, I guess.
- [13:13]
Host 2
Yeah. I don't know. It's worth a shot. I mean, it's better than you being a little goofy on the other end of the table. And they're like, what's going on, Arthur? It's like, you know, you. You have an endearing personality to you. Like, you. It's a. You have a very likable demeanor, and you can tell you have a bit of a nervous energy. That's okay. It's. It's. It's charming. It's charming. You know, so if you are into someone, you can be like, honestly, I just. And you could just.
- [13:39]
Host 1
Don't even.
- [13:40]
Host 2
Don't gas them up, you know, you don't have to be like, oh, my God, I'm just so nervous to meet you. It's just like, first dates, you know, first date jitters. They just make me nervous. Like, you know, you seem cute, but I don't know. Meaning strange men just.
- [13:54]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah, okay.
- [13:56]
Host 2
You could just be a little goofy, Throw in a little humor. You seem like you have a sense of humor. You like funny people.
- [14:01]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yes. They have to be funny.
- [14:03]
Host 2
Yeah.
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Sarah (Caller 1)
But I feel like guys don't often like a girl to be funny. They just want to be funny.
- [14:08]
Host 1
Well, sure.
- [14:09]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Maybe that's not true.
- [14:11]
Host 2
It depends on the guy. Everyone likes a sense of humor, you know?
- [14:15]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah.
- [14:16]
Host 2
Now the funny guy doesn't want to have to compete for jokes.
- [14:19]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah, true. Okay. So then when things end up coming to a close, like, I end it or the guy ends it, I do what I often did with the guy I was telling you about, where I'll. Even though I know it's over, then I start thinking about it even more, and then I want to reach back out again.
- [14:38]
Host 2
That's normal.
- [14:40]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Oh. And then I do that.
- [14:43]
Host 2
What do you have to lose? I don't know, like, you reaching. Yeah, it's. I don't think it's a crime. I don't, like, as long as you're, like, the only thing you have to lose is a little bit of, like, it's an unnecessary sad afternoon by, like, deciding to obsess over something for the sake of obsessing over it and then convincing yourself you should reach out when deep down you really know you shouldn't, or it's not going to do anything, and then only to get rejected and then, like, just kind of, like, have a bad afternoon. Like, that's. That's the only thing you have to lose. And if. If. If it's not that bad, and then, you know, shoot your shotgirl.
- [15:24]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah. Okay. Because then I found that once I end up sending that text, I'm not obsessing anymore. I don't even care if they respond.
- [15:29]
Host 2
There you go.
- [15:30]
Sarah (Caller 1)
I'm like, okay, whatever. Now I'm not thinking about anymore.
- [15:32]
Host 1
You go.
- [15:33]
Sarah (Caller 1)
My friends are all like, no, don't text him. I'm like, oh, that's fine. Okay, great. That actually helps. I can just keep doing that.
- [15:39]
Host 2
I do think not too much. I say this with love to your friends. Stop. I stop asking them for dating advice.
- [15:46]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Okay. Yeah.
- [15:48]
Host 2
And I know. I just. It's the blind leading the blind. And I don't mean. And listen, that's a very generality. But if it's like single people, everyone's just projecting their own dating experiences onto their friends. If you have someone, man or woman, who is a friend, who's kind of outside of the dating scene, who is content with their romantic life, whether they're a nun or married or just like, not. Not out there. Not out there fighting the good fight like you are. You know, it's like, you know, if they're out there on the grind, on the apps like you, they, like, they're not going to be giving you solid advice because it's a minefield out there and it's. It's a lot of, like, want. They. They're going to give you advice that they want someone to say to them, you know?
- [16:40]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah.
- [16:42]
Host 2
You know, maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.
- [16:44]
Sarah (Caller 1)
And people have strong opinions on their dating advice, too.
- [16:48]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [16:49]
Sarah (Caller 1)
So, like, if they tell you not to text them, they're really like, don't text him. So messes with me a little bit. So. Yeah. I mean, I can just stop asking people.
- [16:57]
Host 2
Stop asking other single people.
- [16:59]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah. Yeah. Single people. Yeah. I mean, most of my friends are
- [17:01]
Host 2
like, I. I literally. I'll never forget. I was. I was. I was old enough to know better, but I was very single, and I decided I saw someone's ig content and I was like, oh, they're cute. It's a little different than the type of person I had gone for in the past. And then a girlfriend of mine, friend that's a girl, was simultaneously into this guy who was out with the boys and hadn't been reaching out to her, you know?
- [17:37]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah.
- [17:38]
Host 2
And he. She was literally waiting for him to call. And so I was telling her about this girl. I was like, yeah, what do you think? I was like, I, you know, I, like, I wanted. And she's like, I'm super in. I love this for you, you know? And she just kept convincing me to reach out to her and kept reaching, you know, and all she wanted was this guy to reach out to him. Her. It was the worst advice. I knew she was giving me bad advice, but I wanted to. I wanted. I was looking for. I wanted to be convinced to, like, keep trying to reach out. I looked like a fucking psychopath because she was like. She's just like, yeah, that was like. She was just telling me what she really wanted this guy to do for her, you know, she'll love it. And I'm like, no, you'll love it. You know, like, I want to look like a psychopath.
- [18:24]
Host 1
And I did.
- [18:25]
Host 2
I did look like a psychopath.
- [18:26]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Well, that's what happens. They. People give bad advice and then, you know, it's bad. But you. It's like what you want to do. Okay, so basically I should just maybe on a first date, let them know I'm a little nervous.
- [18:37]
Host 2
If you feel nervous. Yeah, if you feel that nerves and you feel kind of jittery and you feel like you're talking too much, Take a breath.
- [18:45]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah.
- [18:46]
Host 2
You know, I got, you know, first date nerves, man.
- [18:49]
Sarah (Caller 1)
It's not even that I'm nervous to meet them. I don't really care. It's more just that I don't like when there's a silence in a conversation. So I get nervous that there might be a silence in a conversation.
- [18:58]
Host 2
Maybe that's helpful. Like, you know, maybe, you know, if there are first dates are awkward, no one likes the uncomfortable silence. And if you're. You have the guts enough to say something, there's nothing wrong with that, you
- [19:09]
Sarah (Caller 1)
know, I mean, they always ask for a second, so. Yeah. Seems to be going well. A lot of the time, though, they like, I'm just not interested or.
- [19:20]
Host 2
Yeah, but listen, listen, I talked To a lot of people have a hard time getting that second date. So like, don't discount the fact that like you clearly are a good conversationalist and that is honestly in today's day and age, a lot harder for people.
- [19:34]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Well, I talk a lot, but I'm like not caring that, that I'm going on a date with them in particular. But then once I start to like them, it's like I turn crazy.
- [19:44]
Host 2
You and everyone else. It's not even just the guys I know.
- [19:47]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah. Yeah.
- [19:48]
Host 2
You know, again, that story I told
- [19:49]
Sarah (Caller 1)
you doesn't seem to be the guy
- [19:50]
Host 2
I, you know that story I told you, I, I mean I wasn't crazy, but I, I was like knowingly getting bad advice and taking it.
- [20:00]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah.
- [20:01]
Host 2
You know, and that's kind of crazy.
- [20:03]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Like in the past few months there's been a couple guys I've gone on more than four dates with, which I feel like is when it gets, starts to get more real. And I feel like whenever those kinds of things end, it's just so disheartening. And then it's like, I have to do this again. I don't know.
- [20:18]
Host 2
When was the last time you had a, like a long term boyfriend?
- [20:23]
Sarah (Caller 1)
A year and a half ago or like almost.
- [20:26]
Host 2
How long was that for?
- [20:28]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Two years.
- [20:29]
Host 2
How'd that end?
- [20:31]
Sarah (Caller 1)
I was moving, but also I kind of didn't really like him that much. And I feel like the whole second year of dating I wanted to break up and then I was moving, so it made it easy.
- [20:42]
Host 2
When you say the I have to do this again, what is that again? What do you, what is, what is the thing you have to do again?
- [20:49]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Go back. Well, I don't really mind being on hinge, I guess, but it's more like go on a first date, which I'm never excited for. They end up being fine, like maybe half the time. But when they're not fine, I'm like really not having it.
- [21:05]
Host 2
And then how do you get out of those dates?
- [21:09]
Sarah (Caller 1)
I, I tell myself like I had a date this past, what, Tuesday? And I told myself the date was at 7. So I told myself I had to stay until 8:15. And then like if it's, if it's that I can leave at 8:15. Because sometimes on dates I'm like sitting there and I'm like, it's only been half an hour. Anyway, that guy on Tuesday did not like him. And then I'm tired for work the next day and I like, I'm like, why'd I even go on a Date. I knew I wouldn't like him.
- [21:39]
Host 2
So what led up to that first date? I'm curious. What kind of conversations on Hinge?
- [21:44]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Not much. He lives in my neighborhood, so I think we talked a little bit about, like, what restaurants we like around here, and then it wasn't really wasn't much on Hinge. I don't really like to talk too much before first date.
- [21:57]
Host 2
Is no one taking my advice out there? No one's doing the zoom dates, the FaceTime.
- [22:01]
Sarah (Caller 1)
I think about that all the time. So. I listen to the podcast a lot and you always say that, and I think it's good advice, but I think guys would find it weird.
- [22:09]
Host 2
We had a caller the other day who, who said as much or, Well, I mean, it wasn't that she found it weird. She suggested it and he was like, no, I don't want to do that. And she was like, well, okay, that I, I agree with her. She saw it as like a red flag.
- [22:25]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah. But also, if a guy asked me to FaceTime, I don't know if I'd want to either, just.
- [22:30]
Host 2
Cause like, maybe I do things a little different. I mean, you know, I, I think
- [22:34]
Sarah (Caller 1)
it's for a girl to ask.
- [22:36]
Host 2
Yeah. It's like, hey, are you gonna murder me? I, I, I honestly think the reasons why people wouldn't ask are for the reasons why you might save yourself the energy and time. You're willing to go on dates. You're active on the apps. You, you see, it sounds like I'm, I'm, I'm getting the impression your dating problems, it's not finding the dates. It's not having the guts to go on the dates. It's not knowing what to say on the first dates. You're actually, you're doing that's all great. And so many people struggle with various aspects of that part. Like, it's all hard. Right. And you're, you're, you seem to be pretty good at some of the hard stuff. Right. But like, it's just fucking exhausting. And then you get a little anxious once you start liking a guy and you become a different person, which is a whole other thing. But. Right. Like the, the kind of, the grind of the dating, you're actually got that down. You're not that bad at it, and you're, you know, but like, many of them you're just not into, which is like, that's good. That would, it would be a problem if you were like, they're all great. And I'm like, they're not all great. You're just, you've. Yeah, you need to up your standards. So like, you're not supposed. You're like, you're supposed to get excited. Maybe one out of five guys, maybe. And so the other four dates, you're just like, fuck. You know, like. And like many of those, at least half of those, maybe all of them. You could figure that out on a zoom date. Now understand that, like, it's not as common. It's, you know, you might get a little. I just like, if I were. If I wanted to go on a date with a girl. I have a limited time on dating apps, but I've been, you know, I. I've been on them for a minute, you know. And so it's just that, like, right, like you have all these matches, right? You're swiping, you're swiping, you're swiping. Think about like your mindset, right? It's. And the guy's gonna be the same way. Like, you're swiping your swiping. And then you have like, what, five or 10 matches. Then to a handful of them, it gets a little cloudy in terms of who you're really excited about. Short of like you just thinking they're really hot. That's the only thing you can really trust is their picture for the most time. But they can lie about their picture. So then there's also that, you know, and they can be a little deceiving. But like, so you're only get really excited. But. And I just remember, like a lot of times when you think about dates, you're kind of like, should I? Should I not? You're kind of convincing yourself the boys are like, I don't know, this is going to cost me like 60 bucks. Do I really? You know, and.
- [24:56]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Oh, true.
- [24:57]
Host 2
You know, and you're like, for them,
- [24:58]
Sarah (Caller 1)
they might be like, I can just do them and save some money maybe. Yeah, that's actually.
- [25:02]
Host 2
But how you frame it matters. It's like, let's say, listen, you seem cool, but let's face time. And like, you can maybe be jokey about it. I guess what I'm saying. And I think I think about this strongly. I think you're just going to weed
- [25:13]
Host 1
a lot of people out.
- [25:14]
Host 2
I just think the guys who, like, get really defensive and weird that it's just not that hard to get another. Like, you guys are Gen Z. You know, you use it. You guys are the tech age, you know, Like a. You know, I come from an era when like, FaceTiming was new and I was Talking to a girl long distance. And she was like, that's. That's weird. We don't like, huh? Like, because it was literally new. Now, like, you're FaceTiming your friends all the time, right? Like, I'm guessing, do you guys even call on the phone or is it always FaceTime? Right? Like, it's half and half, half and half. Right. So everyone's doing it. Everyone's with the friends, the boys are doing with the guys. Like, it's not that normal to jump on a FaceTime or Zoom. I, you know, I don't think you should be sharing your number with a bunch of strange dudes. Which is why zoom is kind of nice. But like, you could just be like, yo, like, let's save each other, like the first date awkwardness. And like, let's have a fun Zoom date. You know, it's like, also, you guys were five years removed from COVID Like, everyone knows how to jump on. It's not that weird anymore. And yes, a lot of guys will say no, but I firmly believe that they're like, you saved yourself. Like, it's not that weird. Even if it's just like, I'm a girl, you're a guy. I want to feel safe. It's such an easy opportunity for men to make a woman feel safe. And if they do the opposite, that's
- [26:35]
Host 1
a red flag on them to not
- [26:37]
Host 2
have the self awareness that maybe she's asking for a little bit of comfort and confidence.
- [26:41]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like often within the first like 10 minutes of a date, I know if I want to be there longer or not. But then you have to sit there.
- [26:52]
Host 2
Listen. My whole life of being on tv, people told me I look taller in person. And they said I was better looking in person. And I'm sure I could have this. Like, but if I were like nervous about that, you know, if I were dating, you know, like, just have a sense of humor. Be like, I swear to God, I'm better looking and taller in person. You know, like, or whatever. You just have. You just be silly or fun or whatever, whatever. It's. You're just. What are you looking for in a Zoom? You're just looking for like a little bit of rapport, a little bit of ease, you know, if you go on a zoom, it's just like, hey, so I don't know, like, what did you. What did you want to talk about? You're going to be like, okay.
- [27:28]
Sarah (Caller 1)
And also, like, I feel like there's some, like, they don't have their Their job sometimes on their hinge. So, like, there's some questions you can ask on Zoom or FaceTime that would,
- [27:37]
Host 2
well, careful about like jumping on a zoom and be like, so what do you do?
- [27:41]
Sarah (Caller 1)
No, I know, I know. I play.
- [27:43]
Host 2
Because that's. What do you do is how much money you make.
- [27:45]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah, I mean, a little bit, but also like, certain jobs I wouldn't. Not as interested in.
- [27:51]
Host 2
Like what, Just out of curiosity.
- [27:53]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Well, I know you used to do sales, so no offense, but sales. Okay, like, I, I.
- [27:59]
Host 2
What is it?
- [27:59]
Sarah (Caller 1)
I want a job where people make a, like a positive impact. I'm a, a kindergarten teacher, so like, to me it's pretty important that I do something that like, makes a big impact every day. And I feel like some jobs, if you're just doing it to make money, I don't really find that that attractive. Okay. I want you to be like, really passionate about why you're doing what you're doing, or like trying to do something positive. And sales, I feel like you're just trying to sell stuff to people who don't want to buy it. But maybe I'm wrong. I've gone varying, varying opinions on this.
- [28:35]
Host 2
I think, I think people in the sales industry, you can get a mixed bag of, like, anything else. I've met some really shitty teachers.
- [28:42]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah.
- [28:42]
Host 2
As people, not many as teachers. I've, I've, I've met some really shitty health care workers. Sales certainly attracts a certain type of motivated person. Often they are money motivated, for sure. That being said, you know, despite being in sales, like, I don't know, there was a period of time where I, you know, I don't know, I donated my time every Saturday at a food pantry for three years.
- [29:06]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Oh, that's very nice.
- [29:07]
Host 2
You know, while still in sales, you know, so, like, you can, you don't have to. There's, there's.
- [29:12]
Sarah (Caller 1)
That's a good point.
- [29:13]
Host 2
Yeah, you can, you can, you can, you can be a pretty good guy or person. In being sales, you can also be a shitty person. So, you know, try not to judge your book by its cover. But I do think you can use it as a data point that's like, all right, sales, there's a good, you know, you know, you can ask them, what are they passionate about.
- [29:31]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah.
- [29:31]
Host 2
But yeah, I also will say it's sometimes hard, especially for men or people, you know, but like, I think, you know, guys have this desire to feel like they know what they're like, what's their career going to be. I have this kind of belief that if you're under the age of 30 and you run some kind of nonprofit charity, you're a con artist, which is a real generalization. That's a huge generation behind that. But my logic is that's something you do because you've made it and you have a passion and now you have some extra time on your hand and you truly can give back. And very few people are set with. And there's a lot of loopholes in nonprofits and foundations to be kind of shady. And also there's a lot of goodwill that comes with it. And it looks great and it's flattering and it's. But it's like, you know, usually the, the person who does that with really pure intentions isn't chasing anything else. They've have everything else. They've, they've. They've met their dreams and goals and careers. And I think the person who's like, still figuring it out and the thing they were trying to figure out is the non for profit that the chances are they're maybe searching for other. Other things. Maybe try to generalize a little bit. Less people can. You can. It's. Yeah, it's dangerous to generalize because I think you weed out a lot of good people because there's good people everywhere, there's bad people everywhere. You know, it's like it doesn't matter what city you're in. You can find great people, you can find shitty people. There's just more of those people in, in, let's say larger cities, you know, but just try to slow down a little bit. I think you're doing a lot of good things when it comes to dating and when you get, when you get freaked out, I guess. Yeah, definitely. Just don't end it because of a vibe.
- [31:29]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Should I have asked, like, just want to check in about how this is going or just leave it? Just wait for him to text me about another date because I just had asked him already.
- [31:39]
Host 2
Well, maybe somewhere in the middle, you know, you felt like he was pulling away a little bit. And then in like one time he wasn't available. And the first time his patterns change, you just like cut it off. But like, again, you weren't totally wrong.
- [31:54]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah.
- [31:54]
Host 2
You notice a change in his behavior. You called him out. The. The what the alternative is to. It's just the aggressive, like the. Because you're trying to avoid that, like, period of this, like, freaking out.
- [32:07]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah.
- [32:08]
Host 2
So in that case, you did help. It's. It's less about what you should say to them and more about how do you get yourself in a place where the unknown doesn't freak you out.
- [32:18]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Well, I guess I'll work on that.
- [32:19]
Host 1
Well, I think what you can try
- [32:20]
Host 2
to work on and then I do know we have to go, is like this mindset of, like, oh, after four. Like four or five dates isn't much, right? You've done it before, you'll do it again. And there's something about you going on four or five dates that makes you, like, kind of start thinking, oh, this could be something. And almost getting you in, like, girlfriend relationship mode. It's only been four or five dates, and you're not building that much rapport. And this whole starting over, it's just like you're acting like the Rhetts. Ys. Have you had a past relationship? You kind of work almost giving. You've never had a boyfriend when you said that? Because it was like. Well, there's. I mean, the starting over, like, the people. Like when you have a relationship for a year or two and then you have that comfort and, you know, that familiarity, and you're not dating, you're not going out on the grind, and there's just to go back out in the dating world. It's definitely like a. Oh, my God, I gotta do that again. That's. It sucks. Maybe you just need to take a little bit of a dating break, you know, because you've been in it for a minute, you know, and that's okay.
- [33:20]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Okay. Well, I really appreciate the advice.
- [33:22]
Host 2
I hope this was helpful. I'm just.
- [33:24]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah, it was. And congrats on the twins.
- [33:26]
Host 2
Thank you.
- [33:27]
Sarah (Caller 1)
And thanks for having my favorite podcast ever. It's awesome.
- [33:30]
Host 2
Well, I appreciate you saying that. It means a lot, but. Yeah, it's just. Slow down. You're. You're, you're, you're, You're. You're doing good things. Do you. Do you get therapy? Are you in therapy?
- [33:42]
Sarah (Caller 1)
I, like, here and there, and then. And then I stop.
- [33:46]
Host 2
What do you go to therapy for when you go.
- [33:48]
Sarah (Caller 1)
She's. I don't really. Like, my therapist is the problem.
- [33:50]
Host 2
Get a new therapist.
- [33:51]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah, a new therapist.
- [33:52]
Host 2
I know there's a lot of therapists out there. Well, I only ask because. And again, I'm not. I don't know, like, I'm not a, like, attachment style expert, but this kind of nervous energy, like, you. You gotta figure out. And that's really your thing is just to, like, how to. How to regulate your emotions when you're feeling the most anxious, like, who do you call and reach out to? You know, I'M not always available, and your friends are. Your friends are not the people you need to be going to. And honestly, like, just how to regulate those kind of. When you're really feeling that anxious feeling, finding someone who's really good at helping you regulate those emotions without giving you bad advice, you know, because sometimes the answer isn't to do anything. It's just to re. It's to change your perspective or reframe your thinking. Sometimes it's just like, take. Take a fucking beat. Take a breath. Like, think about literally anything else. Just calm the fuck down. You know, someone might say, a little bit more helpful than that.
- [34:52]
Sarah (Caller 1)
No, that's more helpful. Yeah.
- [34:54]
Host 2
Sometimes that's just the answer. Let's just go do something else. Let's. I don't know. I don't have the answer. It doesn't matter. It'll figure itself out. Let's just go do anything else in the meantime. He is just a guy you barely know, and I don't know what's gonna happen, but, like, you are gonna be fine. So save yourself to freak out and let's just. Whatever, like. And also, what I said in the. In, like, your. It's a waste of energy, you being like, was it me? Is it this? Is it that? Like, I just remember when I was single, it's like, it's just not that complicated. We don't have the answer. Do you have the answer when you're dating? When you get the ick, do you. Can you explain it?
- [35:37]
Host 1
You know what I'm saying?
- [35:38]
Host 2
Is it like something where. If a guy was like, well, can you explain to me why you. You know, you wouldn't even have an answer? You'd be like, I don't know. I just don't. You know? And I. Or I just do. So instead of, like, dissecting your behavior and overanalyzing every little thing you did or didn't just you. They don't have an answer. You know, it's just a vibe that early on. So they're either into you or they're not. You can't do anything about it. So, like, why are you spending a bunch of time trying to figure out what you did wrong?
- [36:05]
Sarah (Caller 1)
True. It's not helping me. Just put something in my head.
- [36:07]
Host 2
Yeah, and you are. You do give off an energy. And by you, I just mean anyone when you're like, just don't give a. That's so. You know?
- [36:17]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah. Because then they like you if you seem to not care or.
- [36:22]
Host 2
And then. And they, like, people want to chase people Want to chase people? Wanna.
- [36:25]
Sarah (Caller 1)
I know, but like, if. I know I like you. I like you. So then I have to play.
- [36:29]
Host 2
But you don't know if you like them. You. You don't. He's a. He's a nice face and a good sense of humor and that's neat. But like, so does Wes Wilson. And now we're. We're thinking he's kind of not a great guy, you know? I don't know if you watch Summer House.
- [36:42]
Sarah (Caller 1)
No, I don't. So I don't know who that is.
- [36:43]
Host 2
That's okay. But he's a very. He's a good looking, funny guy who's been. Turns out he's been, you know.
- [36:50]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah.
- [36:51]
Host 2
Being your classic boy.
- [36:53]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah. And I guess, I mean, even if you end up dating them, you might know after a year you don't like them.
- [36:58]
Host 2
Correct. Yeah, that's, you know, the guy you dated for two years and then a year you stuck with him after you didn't like him. There was a point where you were like excited about him. There he would have been. If he would have been less into you, you would have freaked out. And then you ended up being like, oh God. Oh my God, you're here. So find your friend that helps you slow down. And maybe that friend is a new therapist.
- [37:26]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Okay, well, I'll look out for one.
- [37:28]
Host 2
All right, good luck out there. Keep us posted. You too.
- [37:31]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Appreciate it.
- [37:32]
Host 2
I appreciate you. Keep us posted on your dating life.
- [37:35]
Sarah (Caller 1)
I will.
- [37:35]
Host 2
All right, take care.
- [37:36]
Sarah (Caller 1)
All right. Bye.
- [37:37]
Host 2
Bye.
- [37:37]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Bye.
- [37:38]
Host 1
What's up everybody? Don't forget that all Vile Files plus content is ad free plus for all
- [37:43]
Host 2
you Ask Nick listeners out there. Your update specials are ready and waiting for you. I know you are very interested on the follow up calls. What has happened to these people after they heard my advice? Did it help them? Did it hurt them? Has their life changed? Well, you can find out on update
- [37:58]
Host 1
plus and you can get update plus behind vile files plus so go to
- [38:01]
Host 2
vilefiles.com to sign up. You will be glad that you did.
- [38:06]
Host 1
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- [43:05]
Host 2
How's it going?
- [43:06]
Sarah (Caller 2)
I'm good. How are you?
- [43:07]
Host 2
Good. What's your name?
- [43:09]
Sarah (Caller 2)
My name is Sarah and my husband says cruel things to me on purpose to make me feel bad. And I am 22.
- [43:19]
Host 2
Okay. How old is your husband?
- [43:21]
Sarah (Caller 2)
He is also 22. We're only three months apart.
- [43:24]
Host 2
How bad is it? Are you thinking about leaving or.
- [43:26]
Sarah (Caller 2)
I am, because just to the things that he has said and then, I mean, part of it's depression, but like listening to different people talk about their depression. If you're depressed, it doesn't make it your partner's fault for you to be mean to them. I feel like. And I feel like I'm like the punching bag in a way. He said things, I guess. I don't know. There's just so many. I don't really know which where to start with it. But one big thing is he told me he's regret getting married to me, but then would like backpedal on it and be like, no, I didn't mean that. But we'll say it to me and be nasty. And he also told me that I baby trapped him with our daughter and we're married, which I did not do. I don't know how you baby trap
- [44:03]
Host 2
your husband after you get married.
- [44:05]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yes, we had been married for two years.
- [44:09]
Host 2
Does your husband, like suffer from like clinical depression or is it like sometimes he's sad?
- [44:14]
Sarah (Caller 2)
He actually is depressed. He had a very like, terrible childhood.
- [44:18]
Host 2
Okay.
- [44:18]
Sarah (Caller 2)
That's legit. And it's not just like something that he's just sad sometimes.
- [44:22]
Host 2
Okay.
- [44:22]
Sarah (Caller 2)
But he seems to let it out on me and then it just.
- [44:25]
Host 2
I don't know, it's tough. Yeah. When he's not being a total asshole to you, does he recognize how bad it is or is he still kind of. Is he. Or is he a little dismissive where it's just like, you're overreacting. It's not that bad. I'm sorry, but like, get over it.
- [44:40]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah, he recognizes how bad it is. But then like, we'll say that he's sorry, but then fact go back on it because he'll say like, well, I'm this way because you don't make me feel comfortable or safe to be nice to you about it. And I'm just like, what do you mean? So I'm not very good at like remembering exact things. So like when we get in arguments and things and he tries to bring up stuff I can't, like, remember because that's just not my brain works and have a baby. And it's just. It's a lot. When I was going through this, like, the majority of it, I started, like, taking notes of things.
- [45:10]
Sarah (Caller 1)
1.
- [45:10]
Sarah (Caller 2)
The one thing I wanted to say is so he recognizes it. And then he told me, I say mean things to you, to hurt you, to make you feel how I feel. And he, like, told me that.
- [45:19]
Host 2
Well, as hard as that, I mean, like, that's fucked up. First of all, he shouldn't say that to his wife. And that's really mean. And I'm sorry he's saying that, but I'm sure you've heard the saying, hurt people, hurt people. So as crazy as that sounds, in a weird way, he's articulating and being honest with his reasons for doing it, which honestly seem honest. It's, you know, it's fucked up. And. But in a weird way, he is kind of recognizing it.
- [45:42]
Sarah (Caller 2)
I don't know if I could be mad, because it's just like, he recognizes what he's doing, but it's also. Does that make it worse?
- [45:47]
Host 2
What it doesn't make. What it doesn't make, it is okay. Like, his reasonings and his depression is certainly above my, like, ability to, like, diagnose or explain to you, like, what you should or shouldn't be okay with, and more importantly, like, why he does what he does. But I, you know, I. I guess to correct myself, I do feel like I can strongly say, like, you don't have to be okay with, like, it doesn't. It's not an excuse for poor treatment, especially consistently poor treatment, especially when it's your husband, especially when you have a kid together, and especially when some of the things he says is potentially really damning. Like, we all have a limit, and you can give your husband grace and you have empathy for his condition, but at some point, you need to be happy, too. You're getting to a place, correct me if I'm wrong, where you're starting to wondering if what he's saying is true. Like, how much is it is true? Because he keeps saying it. It's like our drunk thoughts, honest thoughts or something like that. Is he saying it? Maybe he's hurt, but what part of it is. Does he also believe it? It's like, sometimes we don't say things because we still believe it, but we don't say it because it's still mean. It's just like, well, I'm not gonna say that, but deep down, maybe I believe it. And now I'm guessing it's Starting to get into your head.
- [47:07]
Sarah (Caller 2)
But it's been hard because just like been ongoing for. Since she was born, really well before that. But it got worse after she was born. And he just hasn't really made too much of an effort with her too. So then him treating me the way he's treating me and then treating her the way he's treating her.
- [47:23]
Host 2
How did he treat her?
- [47:24]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Well, he won't, like, interact with her. So I get like, coming home from work, being tired, you, like, worked all day, whatever. But like every day to come home, go straight into the bathroom and go sit in there and go shower, sit on your phone and then sometimes smoke some weed and just sit in there. And he'll be in there for anywhere from an hour to five hours when he comes home and then just go straight to bed. Other days it's just fine. He comes out, he'll sit with us, it'll be whatever. But he won't interact with her. He'll just sit and play on his phone. And I'm just like, well, what if most dads are like this? Do most dads just sit and play on their phone? I don't really know.
- [47:59]
Host 2
I don't think so. Or I don't. Not the good ones. You know, I mean, listen, changing your
- [48:04]
Sarah (Caller 2)
diaper too, like, he was weird about that. He was like, well, I don't want to change your diaper because it's like, we're not like the same. And then like, so he hasn't really changed any diapers or anything.
- [48:13]
Host 2
Like, that's crazy.
- [48:14]
Sarah (Caller 2)
A man. I don't know if they normally do.
- [48:17]
Host 2
I. I changed a lot of diapers.
- [48:19]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Yeah,
- [48:22]
Host 2
I changed more diverse than Natalie. You know, she. She gives me the. And I'm happy to do that. Natalie. Natalie does so much that, you know, I don't do, but I'm. I'm happy to do that. And that's just a weird thing to say. I mean, like, yeah, everyone deserves a privacy, but don't be weird. It's your kid. And just change their diaper. You know, it's a lot of. It's just built in excuses. He's 22. The big question is, like, what is he? He can recognize there's an issue. Sounds like he does apologize sometimes. Like, what is he doing about it? To change the behavior, if anything?
- [48:54]
Sarah (Caller 2)
I mean, the past two weeks, he's kind of just been interacting with us more. And it just feels like. Because it was about two or three weeks ago where I told him, I was like, I. I literally can't do this anymore. Like, I'm not going to sit here and suffer because you're miserable, and then you want to make everybody else around you miserable and hurt. So he's just been, like, interacting more. I was like, I don't know if he's trying to, like, interact with us and be around us and be more pleasant because he cares. And he was like, oh, shit, like she's gonna leave or it's a temporary thing to get me to cool off so that I don't get to that point. Even though I'm still like, almost in that limbo that everybody talks about. It's like, what is it too. Too good to leave or too bad or. I don't remember the saying, but.
- [49:37]
Host 2
Well, the reality is, is like, you're in a very difficult spot. I mean, you have a young child, you're married. This is not like leaving your situationship or your boyfriend of a year or even your fiance. It's a challenge for you, right? So, like, you would probably definitely not stay in this situation if some of those things weren't a reality. So I don't even think it's a matter of, like, not quite bad enough to leave, but, you know, type whatever the saying is. I get what you're trying to say, but I think the reality is, is like, it's gonna be. It's. This is a. For you to leave is a huge. It's a huge. It's a very scary thing.
- [50:07]
Sarah (Caller 2)
And then it feels like, you know, like breaking up the family unit. And then it's like, it feels like it's all my fault.
- [50:12]
Host 2
It's definitely not your fault.
- [50:13]
Sarah (Caller 2)
I want her to have a whole thing, but it's like, she doesn't deserve to watch us not like each other. And then part of me that feels like I'm really shut off to this now is I don't really feel anything towards him. I just do what I do and that he just does what he does and he thinks that we're all fine, but I'm just sitting here thinking, I feel nothing. I feel numb. Like I'm just on autopilot right now.
- [50:32]
Host 2
But recently you have told him that it's not all fine, correct?
- [50:37]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah, he understands that. We're still trying to, like, because we got in the arguments and stuff, and then we were gonna get divorced and then we were like, okay, well, we're gonna work on it, but it's not for sure that we're gonna state it.
- [50:47]
Host 2
What was the working on it part?
- [50:49]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Him just like, not sitting in the Bathroom his entire day. Like, actually not sitting on his phone all day.
- [50:55]
Host 2
What does he do about his depression?
- [50:57]
Sarah (Caller 2)
So he. He didn't really talk to his family for a long time, and he finally reconnected with them, which they had issues, so that was a hard thing. But he loves his dad so much, and he needed to start talking to his dad again for at least for him to make himself feel better. He started doing that, and that seemed to make him not feel. Feel as depressed. But then it's like, I don't really understand how someone's bringing Rick's head depressed. But he was just like, he'll be fine. And then he's just like, I just
- [51:20]
Sarah (Caller 1)
want to kill myself.
- [51:21]
Sarah (Caller 2)
And, like, we'll say it in front of our daughter. And I'm like, she does not need to listen to this. I know she's a baby and doesn't understand, but she'll understand soon enough.
- [51:30]
Host 2
Yeah, no, that is a good point. More when I say, like, is he in therapy? I mean, he's. If he's.
- [51:35]
Sarah (Caller 2)
No, he went to therapy. But then he came back from therapy and told me that the therapist was out to get him and that she didn't like him. And this therapist also sees my mom sometimes, has seen me. And so he thinks that she's just like. Because one time she.
- [51:53]
Sarah (Caller 1)
He.
- [51:53]
Sarah (Caller 2)
When he landed there, she accused him or not. Not like, directly accused him, but, like, was like, you can tell me, like, if you did something, like, kind of almost like saying that if he cheated on me or something, that he could tell her, which pretty sure he has never cheated on me in.
- [52:08]
Host 2
Well, if he knows that you're seeing this therapist and your mom seeing this therapist, I can see why he doesn't feel totally safe with this therapist.
- [52:16]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Well, that was him meeting me in the middle, was going to this therapist because he wouldn't find his own therapist. Because I was like, you need to go talk to somebody about this. And he was like, no. And then he was seeing her, and I stopped going to therapy because I. I was like, I'm fine. I don't need to go to therapy. I mean, I could, but I don't want to at this time. And then he just. It was just all bad things. It was the therapist is this or that. But I understand what you're talking about.
- [52:39]
Host 2
It's great that you're communicating, that you're fed up. That's hard enough to do. But it doesn't sound like he has the tools or the ability to. Or you guys have the tools, the ability to fix this on your own. Like, what does that mean? You know? Like, I smoke weed, so it's like, I'm not trying to be a hypocrite here, but, like, I'm also not clinically depressed. I don't know how smoking weed affects someone who is actually depressed. I'm guessing not great. Probably doesn't help. I could be wrong.
- [53:06]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah, I don't think it helps. I mean, maybe sometimes you might feel a short term, like, it helps you in one day, but not, like, for the long term.
- [53:14]
Host 2
But the point is, is like, if. If all you're doing is this, hoping that he's gonna wake up and. And be a different person someday, I don't think that's gonna happen. You either have to, like, really sit them down and just say, hey, I really want to make this work. And he's got to be willing to want to do something. He's got to say, I want to fight for my family. I don't want to be this way. I'm sorry I do this to you. You need to. At least in the middle, in between these toxic times. It doesn't make what he says okay, but if he's not even acknowledging what he's doing to the point where he doesn't want to be this person and he's willing to do something about it, then he's not giving you much to work with. Yeah, you're only 22. You have a lot of life ahead of you. You're gonna be okay. And it probably doesn't feel this way right now, but he has got to give you a reason to have hope. And hope's already dangerous enough. But he's not. You're. He's not giving you much. So I'm not telling you to leave or anything like that, but just make sure you know what you're fighting for, and make sure you, if nothing else, do you feel like you have someone at least there, who also wants to try to fix this, and what is he willing to do with you to fix it? Being off his phone a little bit less is not. That's not.
- [54:23]
Sarah (Caller 2)
It's bare minimum.
- [54:24]
Host 2
Not also, like, yeah, it's avoiding the triggering states where he says these really mean things to you and things that sit with you and things that are hard to hear in the environment you feel like you're putting you and your daughter in is. Is like, how do you avoid that? And does he recognize that that's a really ugly thing he's doing?
- [54:43]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Well, now, that's another thing, too, that he has Said that was kind of screwed up because. So he's like. With his depression and stuff. He said, well, I said, do you. Why do. You don't want. You shouldn't say these things in front of her because you don't want her to feel the same way you're feeling, do you? And then he was like, well, she's going to eventually because it's genetic. And I was like, I don't think it. I mean, I feel like it's genetic to a point, but it's also environmental. So, like, if she ever around a bunch of stuff that makes you depressed, you're going to be depressed.
- [55:13]
Host 2
Yeah, I. Yeah, she can't be.
- [55:16]
Sarah (Caller 2)
It's not like, that was not.
- [55:17]
Host 2
That's also like, not the answer. I don't know. Like. Yeah, it sounds like your husband has a lot of hurt and pain, and it sounds like he's been through a lot and. And that's sad. And I empathize for him, but it's. It's still not okay for how you're feeling. And maybe you need to take a step back. You know, if he's not, you know, maybe it's not a. A matter of like, immediately, you know, maybe there's a separation. Maybe he just needs to like, hey, you really need to go get help. Until you do, I don't know if I can have you around me and our daughter.
- [55:47]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah.
- [55:48]
Host 2
You know. Do you have a good support system outside of him?
- [55:51]
Victoria
I do.
- [55:51]
Sarah (Caller 2)
I have a lot of people around me. That's the other thing for him is I have all this great support on my end, but his end is not. Maybe his dad a little bit, but he's not that comfortable with him yet because he's not comfortable with the rest of his family. And then that's like another issue that we have is he is someone. He always feels like a. Lots of people, like, hate him and he, like. It feels like he digs too deep into a conversation. Like, you know, when you go. And you have a conversation with somebody, you go back and you think about it and you're like, oh, I shouldn't have said this, or I should have said this. Well, he does that. But he was. He like, we're like, well, when they said this, and then he gets all angry and said, they hate me or they're angry at me or they're this or that. And then he feels like everybody hates him. And like, he feels like my family hates him and he feels like they make him uncomfortable.
- [56:34]
Victoria
And then I try to talk about
- [56:35]
Sarah (Caller 2)
it to him about it. And I don't really get much answers other than they make me uncomfortable. But, like, why? And then he doesn't say, yeah, I
- [56:43]
Host 2
don't have all the answers to how to fix your husband. All I can do is validate you in the fact that, like, this isn't okay. It can't continue. You're not wrong for, for considering what you're considering. Something's got to change. You two, and specifically him, have to make some meaningful actions. Relationships are really hard, right? Even the good ones go through some bad periods. But it's. I think for the people who are able to get through really dark times in relationships, it's because they feel, they still, like no matter how bad it is, it's like we fight. We've. We've both hurt each other. They lied to me. They still feel like that other. That person feels real regret and sorrow. They. They like, they want to work on it. You know, sometimes that regret and sorrow and I want to work on it is. Maybe it doesn't always fix it. Like, sometimes it could be disingenuous, but you need at least that you need. You need a. I really don't want to be this way. I really am sorry. I do. You know, what can I do? What can we do? Because. And a lot of times people don't follow through with that.
- [57:44]
Host 1
But that is.
- [57:44]
Host 2
That's the bare minimum as feeling like the person on the other side wants. Wants to fight with you to make this thing work. And if the other person is not even in the fight, you know, if they're checked out, if they're just like, they're. If they're too incapable because they're. Maybe they have so much pain on the inside to even consider how you're feeling. That is a really hard place to start from. And I just don't. I just don't want to see you wait around too much longer for something that just, like, can't get fixed.
- [58:18]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Just to hope that it gets better.
- [58:19]
Host 2
Just to hope that it gets better. But if he's refusing any kind of help. And I'm not saying therapy is the end all be all, but he's got to be willing to do something. He's got to be willing to try to fix this, right? To have the. Okay, fine, people hate me. I'm feeling sad, but what can I do?
- [58:36]
Host 1
How do I get out of this?
- [58:37]
Host 2
And again, I don't know how to deal with clinical depression. You know, I'm not a psychologist, but, like, I also don't think it's your cross to bear forever. And there is a limit to the environment you should be putting yourself and your daughter in.
- [58:52]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Well, I feel like if it was just us, I'd be like, I don't really believe in divorce, but like, if you're gonna keep treating me like this, like, I'm just gonna leave and it's just almost simpler. But since it's her, like even just talking about if, when he would have her, since he never really like, puts her to bed or bathes her or feeds her, like anything is all up to me. And I also still work a full time job too. So it's. I feel a little unfair because we both work sometimes. He works most of the time. He works less hours than I do. If I want to go out and do something, I can't just leave her with him. I take her to my parents house because he doesn't want to watch her. And so it's just like, it feels like this is very unfair on my. Or like for me and for her. If he doesn't want to actually put
- [59:34]
Host 2
in any effort, it's not fair, you know?
- [59:36]
Sarah (Caller 2)
And then there's the other voice in my head that's like, well, you're a mom, so you have to take care of anything, everything.
- [59:43]
Host 2
Anyways, a dad, you know, like he, you know, there's a lot of dads who, who do their part or at least try, and he's not. But he's suffering. I have empathy for him, but it doesn't make it okay.
- [59:55]
Sarah (Caller 2)
That's where I feel so. Because I am very empathetic towards him too. And I just, I feel I was just someone I like.
- [60:01]
Sarah (Caller 1)
If.
- [60:01]
Sarah (Caller 2)
If you're hurting, I'm hurting for you. And it makes me feel sad for him. And I try to be there as much as I can because it's like I see his pain.
- [60:09]
Host 2
Yeah. I think you can have empathy for someone without. And it doesn't mean that it requires an excuse for their behavior.
- [60:16]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Mm.
- [60:17]
Host 2
So you can have empathy for them. The difference between having empathy and not having empathy for your husband, for example, or anyone in these situations is to give up on them and just like call them a monster or a psychopath or just a terrible person. The empathy is to like, understand that like, while they're doing bad things, they have trauma and there's a reason that it isn't just as simple as they're a bad person. That doesn't excuse the behavior and it doesn't mean you have to put up with it. So don't confuse your Empathy for your husband with a feeling of like, this is your cross to bear, or that no matter what, you have to put up with this, you know, or that it makes it okay for him to say what he says to you. It's not. He has to find the moments to, like, say, I like the Clare. If he has no moment of clarity where he doesn't want to treat his wife or child this way, I don't know what hope there is. There's got to be that. He's got to say.
- [61:13]
Sarah (Caller 2)
He says he wants to be better, he wants to do these things, but then, no, follow through with it.
- [61:17]
Host 2
Well, then you say, you got to do more than just want it. I have to see it from you. You got to do something about it. You have to keep reminding him gently, as, I can't keep doing this. And if all you're going to do is say you don't want to be this way, maybe it's couples therapies together. Maybe he needs to hear. And maybe it's not the same therapist that you go to. It's got to be a neutral part. But he has to get to a place where, you know, he can't be making excuses for why he does what he does or doesn't do what he does. You know, him, the fact he has a daughter and he's like, how Change the diaper. Help out.
- [61:51]
Host 1
And if it's not changing the diaper, give a bath.
- [61:53]
Host 2
I got this. Go take a break. Go relax.
- [61:55]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Just the consideration, like, it's a simple. That's the hard thing. It's like. It sounds dumb, but it's like the stupidest thing is just changing a diaper would feel so nice to me in my head. Because, like, you care and you want
- [62:06]
Host 2
to do this, and he's not even doing that.
- [62:08]
Sarah (Caller 2)
He, like, always wants praise when he does things that he's not supposed to do, like if he cleans the kitchen or does the dish.
- [62:15]
Host 2
What do you mean, not supposed to do? I got it. Where did it?
- [62:17]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Well, in his brain. In his brain. That's my job.
- [62:20]
Host 2
That's great.
- [62:20]
Sarah (Caller 2)
And I mean, I get it, because I'm. I mean, that's kind of how we are because, like, women does all the cleaning and whatnot.
- [62:26]
Host 2
And what? In what era? Like, it's 2026, you know, like, I don't.
- [62:29]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Like, this is true.
- [62:30]
Host 2
You're sounding like it's 1950. You know, I know you guys have a household. The job's done. When the job's done, everyone needs to help. It's everyone's job. I mean, it just is when you have a kid together, everyone, you know, it's everyone's job. There's no, this is your job. This is my job. You work. If this is 1950, why aren't you staying home constantly with nothing to do but clean the kitchen? It's. That's crazy, you know, and you, you have to put. You can't accept that as an answer. You can't, you know, like, that's crazy.
- [62:57]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Well, the other thing that scares me is like, I've been with him since I've been 15. And I know it's, I mean, it's a valid fear, but it's not like I'm also still so young, but it's just like I've only known being with him and like I've only ever been with him, like, physically and emotionally and stuff. And so that really just is another thing that just scares me totally. Even though I'm still young.
- [63:19]
Host 2
You are young, but you do have a support system. And like so many, like so many people in your position don't. They're really alone. And the fact that you're not, you're lucky that way. So like, like you're in a tough spot, but thankfully you feel good about the support system you have. If you decide to leave him, definitely take a break. You don't. I want to get back out there right away. Just take care of your mental health. Take, you know, focus on your daughter, get yourself in a healthy situation. But yeah, like, breakups are hard and like, it's scary and like, it would be, it's going to be nerve wracking for you to move on for sure. But like, it's better than like right now. This is, this is torture. This is an emotional torture. That's not fair. And, and you know, sometimes relationships have to go through these difficult times. But if he has to give you some hope, he has to acknowledge that this is not how he, that it's not okay to think this way, to act this way, to be this way, and he has to want to do something about it. And if you're spending time arguing with him about his role, about doing diapers and dishes and then he's saying mean things to you. It's like, come on.
- [64:20]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah, I just feel like I've just gotten used to just accepting the bare minimum because I don't know.
- [64:26]
Host 2
Well, you know, but that feels like. But, you know, but, but you know, it's like, you know, you called in, right? You had the guts to call in, but you know. You know what I'm saying? You know, you don't. You don't know what good might feel like, but, you know, this isn't okay.
- [64:38]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Well, what you're saying, too, is, like, my sister and my friends have said that, like, some of my friends wanted to just, like, come over here and just beat him. And I'm like, girl, no.
- [64:48]
Host 2
Well, what they really want is you to be okay. And they want you to, like, expect more for yourself. And just, you know, again, you don't know what better looks like because you've never had it. But, you know, this isn't okay. And even if it's just the peace of mind to not have to be belittled every day, to not have to wonder, you know, why this person doesn't give a shit enough to even change a diaper. It's defeating, you know?
- [65:09]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah.
- [65:10]
Host 2
Even if you didn't.
- [65:10]
Sarah (Caller 2)
I just left for work for a couple of days. He was gone for over a week, and it was just me and her. And I kind of felt guilty because it felt so peaceful and I wasn't having to worry about anything else except for us. And, like, he didn't really message me or try to call me while he was gone. I think he called me once, and I probably got maybe five text messages, and he was gone for over a week. And I. I didn't bother to reach out to him because I was like, I'm just gonna enjoy this time and see how I feel.
- [65:37]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Because I.
- [65:37]
Sarah (Caller 2)
It's almost like in my brain, it was like a mini test of, like, how I would be if I'm by myself. And I felt so guilty because it felt so much.
- [65:46]
Sarah (Caller 1)
It's.
- [65:46]
Sarah (Caller 2)
This felt fine. It felt okay to be like that.
- [65:50]
Host 2
Yeah. That should tell you something. Yeah.
- [65:53]
Sarah (Caller 2)
And I think. I know in my gut, it just hard.
- [65:57]
Host 2
It is hard. Yeah. No, it's a tough spot.
- [65:59]
Host 1
Take your time.
- [66:00]
Host 2
I mean, like, you don't have to rush to a decision, but listen to yourself. And that. That, you know, hearing you say that out loud should tell you something.
- [66:07]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah, well, I. I haven't said it out loud to, like, my friends or stuff because, like, then they're, like, pressuring me to leave. Like, my sister already is doing that, but I'm like, I'm not listening to you. I'm trying to figure it out, like, seeing if you can be better and work it out somehow, because I don't like to try to listen to other people, even though it's like, they'll play a role no matter what.
- [66:26]
Host 2
But what Is the somehow, is the question. Right. How is he gonna do it? Because right now, some, you know, you are just banking on somehow and somehow. When you say it out loud, it's just like, it tells you that deep down, it's like, I think you very much doubt his willingness to make the necessary changes.
- [66:42]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah, well, because one of the times we were talking, we were talking about, like, trying to figure this out and whatnot, he was like, well, we need to figure out if you're. If you're going to stay or if you're going to go, because if you go, I'm just going to leave. And I am gonna just try to have. Figure out a whole new life. Like, he's just gonna up and dip and just, like, not even be in our daughter's life. And then. So that was another thing that was like, okay, is this a cherry on top of just like, what is going on?
- [67:08]
Host 2
You can't make him want to be a father to his daughter whether you're together or not.
- [67:13]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah. And again, like, having to realize that
- [67:15]
Host 2
that's kind of a shitty for. Thing to say. It's kind of like a threat. Right. But at the end of the day, if he doesn't want to be a good father or be a present father or be in his daughter's life, he's not going to, you know, and he. That's his decision. It's not your responsibility to make him a father for your. For your kid. You can encourage him, you know, Natalie encourages me. I encourage, you know, like, she's just an amazing mother, but, like, there are times where, like, you know, Natalie has a complicated relationship with her dad, so, like, she's very mindful of. Of how present I am with river. And she's just very, you know, it's very important for her for her daughter to have a. A positive relationship with her dad. With her dad, which is me.
- [67:53]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah.
- [67:54]
Host 2
And obviously, I really want to be a good father, and I'm very present, but, like, I, you know, I will. I listen. You know, when my. My. When Natalie checks in with me and she gives me a nudge, and sometimes it can be frustrating, but I know it comes from a good place, you know, and right now, he's. He's. It's. But it's.
- [68:10]
Host 1
You know, I'm saying at the end
- [68:11]
Host 2
of the day, I want to be a good dad, and he has to want to be a good dad. You can't make him feel like he
- [68:17]
Sarah (Caller 2)
wants to be a good dad. Like he wants to do the other things to make the relationship better with the no follow through on the back end.
- [68:23]
Host 2
Say that again. What do you mean?
- [68:25]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Where he says he wants to do things like, you want to be better husband, you want to be a better dad, but no follow through to, like, do the steps to actually do the thing.
- [68:33]
Host 2
But that's the thing, you know, Like, I want to be a good father. And I am. You know, like, I show up and I check myself, especially now that now he's pregnant. I. You know, I can't carry two babies. I'm not the one whose stomach is growing really fast. I can jump out of bed when river gets up in the middle of the night. I can change her diaper. I can help out. I can. All the things I know that are difficult for Nellie right now, I make sure I'm doing because I can and I want to, and it's helpful. That doesn't also mean I'm perfect. Right? Even though I'm doing all those things, I can still, like, get notes from my wife or have or advice or just words of encouragement. And even though I do all those things, I want to listen to her because I know it comes from a good place. Saying you want to be a good dad. What does that mean? He's also saying he wants. He's going to abandon you if you leave him. Like, if he's going to abandon his daughter if you step out of, you know, if you leave the marriage. He says some cruel and nasty things, and you're just begging him to stop, and you're asking him to make changes, but he's not. He's not doing anything. He's not even doing the bare minimum. Yeah, you're not responsible for how he shows up as a father. It's not your job to make him want to do a be a good dad. It's. You know, you can help him, you can give advice, but it ultimately comes down to him to want to do it. If he doesn't want to do it, he's not going to do it. He's got to want to help himself. You can have empathy for his. His past or why he is the way he is, but it's not an excuse for how he treats you. And you are young, as difficult as is. You have a lot of life in front of you, and you can change things around pretty drastically. And don't be afraid to listen to your support system and just be glad that you have that support system and lean on them when in this time your daughter's gonna be okay because she has you. And hopefully he figures shit out.
- [70:18]
Host 1
It might take a while.
- [70:19]
Host 2
There's a lot of. Unfortunately, a lot of. A lot of parents, especially dads out there who, you know at this stage in their life right now, unfortunately, your daughter might be a teen, you know, teenager or adult before he comes around, but maybe he'll come around then.
- [70:31]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Well, I get that too, because growing up with my dad, he. He wasn't around for entire childhood because he was a really bad alcoholic. And then he got. He almost died. They were like, you need to stop drinking or you're gonna die. And then. So that didn't happen until we were about like 15, 16, and then he got sober and then got better, and then we didn't really know know him until we were older, like probably 16, 17, when he wasn't alcoholic. And then that makes me worry for her because it's like, I went through that and I mean, I'm pretty okay, and I'm pretty. Have a good head on my shoulders. And so this doesn't really affect me too badly, but I just worry about for her.
- [71:07]
Host 2
We always worry for our kids. But you are okay. And we all come with baggage and scars and, you know, you can only do so much to protect your kids. But she does have you. And she had, you know, like, she is lucky and she's gonna be okay. She won't be perfect. No one is.
- [71:20]
Sarah (Caller 2)
I have been, like, praying about this so much, and I don't know if this was just me being delusional, but I. The morning I prayed, I was like, what do I do? And I'm just like, I am at my wit's end. I'm like, is. This is like divorce and auction? And there was a freaking earthquake. And I was like. And then I'm on course on Google, like, what does this mean? And it's like, oh, this could just be nothing. Or it's like, this is a pressure breaking and blah, blah, blah. And I was just, like, spiraling about it. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is so silly.
- [71:47]
Host 1
Well, it's not silly.
- [71:48]
Host 2
I mean, you're.
- [71:48]
Host 1
You're in a. You're in a really tough spot.
- [71:50]
Host 2
You know, it's.
- [71:51]
Victoria
It's a.
- [71:51]
Host 2
It's a big decision. It's not easy. You know, it's not fair that you have to consider leaving a marriage that, you know, you never planned on leaving. And you're fighting this fight by yourself. And you have a kid or a young daughter who needs you. You have a husband who's mentally unwell, who you have to Try to take care of while he's also not. I mean, it's a really tough spot you're in, so give yourself some grace. But instead of, like, you know, googling, what does an earthquake mean in terms of, like, is God speaking to me? Like, trust your instincts, trust your gut. But like, also, like, allow your support system to help you out.
- [72:25]
Sarah (Caller 2)
In the beginning, I was like, I will never move on my parents. Because when you move in with your parents, I feel like you pay with your mental health, not with money.
- [72:33]
Host 2
Well, it depends on who your parents are, but.
- [72:35]
Sarah (Caller 2)
And my parents, they're very nice, but just, like, I feel like after being around them for a while, it's like, okay, I've had enough.
- [72:41]
Host 2
Although maybe there's other options, but right now, I mean, you just got to get yourself out of this rut somehow.
- [72:47]
Sarah (Caller 2)
I've been stuck here since, like, February. And so it's just like, how much longer do I sit here? Or I need to take an action because I've seen lots of people around me that are miserable. And it's like, these people that just stay in relationships just because it's easier or just for the kids. And I'm like, I don't. I'm young enough where it's like, I need to do something. We need to fix this, or I need to go because I can't be miserable. I don't want to be miserable for the rest of my life.
- [73:11]
Host 2
Yeah. And in your situation, doesn't sound like being in this relationship is easier. Having him gone is. You're happier.
- [73:18]
Sarah (Caller 2)
I just feel so guilty because it's like, I love him and care for him, but his. His problems are my problems now. And even though they shouldn't be, you
- [73:27]
Host 2
care about him as a person. You've known him for a long time. You know, that's normal. You're a human being, you know? But it's not. It doesn't make it okay how he's treating you and how you're made to feel. And you're right. You are.
- [73:37]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah.
- [73:37]
Host 2
You deserve better. God knows you're trying. You're not quitting if you choose to move on. This isn't you quitting. It's doing what you have to do to survive. Literally. It's giving you and your daughter a better life. Because he has not. He's not willing to try, and he's got to be willing to try.
- [73:52]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah, well, I want to give her the best life possible. And it's like, I even told him. This might just sound silly, but I was like, Eventually, I want to, like, buy a house and have a property for us to just, like, live on and just have some land for ourselves. And then you told me, if you want that, you need to go with. Be with somebody else that will give that to you. And I was like, do you want to work for it with me or. And was like, no. I'm like, okay. He just wants the bare minimum for our lives. He doesn't really care to do anything more.
- [74:23]
Host 2
Listen, it's. He's just. It sounds like he's in a really bad place. This is deeper than I. You know, my. My level of expertise. But the fact that he is depressed, it's not shocking that he doesn't have a lot of reasons to hope or he's giving up on himself, or he's. Again, he's hurting inside, but it doesn't. It's not an excuse. And again, you can have empathy for him, but it doesn't mean you have to accept this for yourself.
- [74:46]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah.
- [74:46]
Host 2
It doesn't have to be a bad guy for you to realize that this is a bad situation for you. You've tried, and you are trying, and you. And I'm guessing you'll continue to try for a period of time, but at some point, you have to give yourself permission and the grace to say enough is enough.
- [75:02]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah.
- [75:04]
Host 2
And you will. You will. You will give your daughter the life that she, you know, she'll. You'll be. She'll be okay. She has you.
- [75:12]
Sarah (Caller 2)
That's what I've been told, like, over and over by literally anybody that I've talked to, my situation about, which is just, like, close people.
- [75:19]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [75:19]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Because they know how much I care for her. And, like, I've said, like, no matter what happens with this relationship, like, I have no regret because of her. She is, like, the best thing ever. And she has made me, like, the happiest. So I. I feel like I was meant to be a mom, and I just. I just love her so much.
- [75:35]
Host 2
That's amazing. Right? So, like, that's a beautiful thing. Lean into that. Remember that, you know, and give her what she needs. It's time to stop making him the top priority and focusing on what he needs. You've tried that. You need to focus on yourself and her, and hopefully he recognizes that. He doesn't want to lose this, but that's his decision. You can encourage him to get the help that you think he needs. He ultimately has to do it.
- [76:00]
Victoria
Yeah.
- [76:01]
Host 2
All right, well, I'm sorry you're going through this. It sucks. Try to focus on the positive, as hard as it is.
- [76:07]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [76:08]
Sarah (Caller 2)
I also want to say I think it's so fun that Natalie's pregnant with twins because I'm a twin myself.
- [76:13]
Host 2
Oh. Are you okay?
- [76:14]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Huh?
- [76:15]
Sarah (Caller 2)
We're fraternal twins, but, like, we're having fraternal twins.
- [76:18]
Host 2
Is it a. Do you have a sister or.
- [76:20]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah, we have twin sisters.
- [76:21]
Host 2
Okay.
- [76:22]
Sarah (Caller 2)
And it's just. It's so fun because we were always like, with each other. And then of course, we have our. We have a younger sister. She's only like five years younger than us, but we would always be ganging up on her.
- [76:33]
Host 2
And. Are you guys close despite being fraternal?
- [76:35]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah, we are.
- [76:36]
Host 2
Do you guys look alike?
- [76:37]
Sarah (Caller 2)
I look more like my younger sister than I do my twin, which is weird.
- [76:41]
Host 2
We can see them in the ultrasound. They look different. And I think one looks like river and one looks not like River.
- [76:49]
Sarah (Caller 2)
So I heard you guys talking about the noses. That is big. And Natalie's like, what?
- [76:56]
Host 2
I mean, it's his ultrasound, so. Yeah, I know.
- [76:59]
Sarah (Caller 2)
It's funny, though.
- [77:00]
Host 2
Well, thanks for calling. I'm sorry you're going through this. Lean on your sister. You know that's a beautiful thing, right? You have your twin. You have someone who's like you shared an entire life with. Like, in these difficult times, it's going to be really hard for you to think clearly or know what's best for yourself. Allow your support system to help you do what's best for you because sometimes it might feel like you don't know what to do. And that's. And that's normal. And that makes a lot of sense.
- [77:27]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah.
- [77:28]
Host 2
Okay.
- [77:29]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Okay.
- [77:30]
Host 1
All right, thank you.
- [77:31]
Host 2
We'll take care of.
- [77:32]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah, you too.
- [77:33]
Host 2
All right, Bye. Bye.
- [77:33]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Bye.
- [77:35]
Host 1
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Host 2
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Host 1
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Host 2
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Host 1
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Host 2
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Host 2
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- [81:24]
Host 2
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Host 2
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- [82:16]
Host 2
How's it going?
- [82:17]
Victoria
Good, how are you?
- [82:18]
Host 2
Good. What's your name?
- [82:19]
Victoria
My name is Victoria and I am 24 years old.
- [82:22]
Host 2
How can I help Victoria?
- [82:23]
Victoria
Okay, so my 40 year old married co worker is hitting on me. How do I set a boundary and not make it uncomfortable?
- [82:31]
Host 2
Okay, so, and you're like, to be clear, you're not like interest? You don't like this that he's doing?
- [82:37]
Victoria
I do not.
- [82:38]
Host 2
Okay.
- [82:39]
Victoria
No.
- [82:39]
Host 2
How big is this company?
- [82:41]
Victoria
It's a school, a public middle school.
- [82:44]
Host 2
It's a Public middle school.
- [82:46]
Victoria
Yeah.
- [82:47]
Host 2
Did they have HR or do they have like a. How. I'm assuming on the first day in the job, they played a video. Know what to do in these situations? I don't know. Like.
- [82:57]
Victoria
No, they definitely did. Now, did I pay attention to that? Okay, not necessarily. I joined the school year kind of abruptly, so you kind of have to go through all those videos and do all that kind of stuff. But it was in the middle of the semester, so I guess I didn't really take my time to sit down and watch all those. But I know we for sure, for sure haven't hr.
- [83:20]
Host 2
Okay. Do you know who that person is?
- [83:24]
Victoria
Yes, yes. Yes, I do. Like, I can get in contact with them if I need to, but I don't know their name. It's just like an overall HR email.
- [83:31]
Host 2
Have you. How long have you been there? It sounds like you maybe you haven't been at the school for a long time. Is that part of your.
- [83:36]
Victoria
Yeah. No, not at all. The school year started August of 25, 2025. And I joined October of 2020. 25.
- [83:46]
Host 2
Okay. See, it's not like that new.
- [83:48]
Victoria
Yeah.
- [83:49]
Host 2
Okay. And I'm assuming you have, like, friends there or do you. Do you. Have you made. No. You don't like no one?
- [83:56]
Victoria
No. This was the first person I sort of met and I guess we kind of bonded or connected or at least sparked a conversation and. But I have. I don't have any friends there. I don't really know anyone. I still feel like a newbie, even though I'm not really, really a newbie.
- [84:12]
Host 2
Okay. Is that because, like, is all the other teachers older or you just know when you really have anything in common with or.
- [84:17]
Victoria
I honestly don't know. I don't know if it's a me issue or. I. I just haven't really connected with anyone. I feel like I'm trying to. And I'm trying to put. I'm trying to make friends there, but I just. Nothing's really landed other than with the married man.
- [84:32]
Host 2
So it started kind of harmless. And he was nice to you and you're like, oh, someone's. Someone's talking to me. 100.
- [84:43]
Sarah (Caller 1)
That's.
- [84:44]
Host 2
That's a bummer.
- [84:45]
Victoria
Yeah.
- [84:45]
Host 2
Who. And like that the. Is it. I'm assuming there's a. Plenty. It's mostly. I mean, obviously men and women teachers, they both exist. But I'm assuming it's at least a little slanted towards women.
- [84:56]
Victoria
I. Yeah, I would say so. I don't know for sure, but I definitely think It's. I see more women around than men.
- [85:01]
Host 2
Elementary, middle school, high school, middle school.
- [85:04]
Victoria
So just seventh and eighth grade.
- [85:06]
Host 2
How many teachers work there?
- [85:08]
Victoria
Oh, probably. Probably around 40.
- [85:12]
Host 2
Okay. What do you teach?
- [85:13]
Victoria
I teach theater.
- [85:15]
Host 2
Okay.
- [85:15]
Victoria
I'm a drama teacher. Yeah.
- [85:17]
Host 2
So like, you haven't met anyone that you've kind of.
- [85:21]
Victoria
No.
- [85:22]
Sarah (Caller 2)
So.
- [85:22]
Victoria
So drama is new to the school. Theater is new to the school. I'm fresh out of college. This is my first, like, job job because, you know, I've worked throughout college and high school and all that. But so basically this is. I saw it online. I was in the middle of my student teaching. I applied, interviewed, got the job. I was like, holy cow, this is awesome. Like, I haven't even graduated yet and I'm already starting my career. I felt very accomplished.
- [85:48]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Right.
- [85:48]
Victoria
And this is new to the school, new to the students. They've never had a theater department before. So I'm essentially building it from the ground up. Like, they don't have any set, any costumes, props, nothing. Anything to make a theater department.
- [86:01]
Host 2
That's a lot of hard work.
- [86:02]
Victoria
Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a lot of hard work. But yeah, basically I just met him in the copy room one day and I am not skilled when it comes to like stagecraft or carpentry or building things, anything like that. Like, I took a couple stagecraft classes in college, but he told me, hey, I actually did short films and carpentry stuff for our state for films. And I was like, no way. Because like, I. I can't do any of that. User Gail, anything you need, let me know. So that's kind of how sure that door opened. So, yeah, totally harmless, totally innocent. And then it just kind of progressed well.
- [86:35]
Host 2
So you thought, yeah, true, true. And so you're expected to build all this stuff you don't like. They're just.
- [86:43]
Victoria
No, no, definitely not. They're not really. They just want the kids to have this and I want the kids to have this. But I think I want it to be like that. Like, I want a production, I want to play. I started an after school program for the school so the students could put on an actual play. There are other teachers who have their after school programs and we have to go and wait for the kids to get picked up. And so I'm trying to connect with other teachers and trying to form these bonds and it's just nothing is landing.
- [87:10]
Host 2
Are there other women your age? Give or take a few years? There are. Okay, so it's not like it's a bunch of 50 year old women in you?
- [87:19]
Victoria
No, I mean there are 50 year old women.
- [87:21]
Host 2
I mean, but I'm sure.
- [87:22]
Victoria
But like of all age ranges, it's a, it's a variety for sure. The diversity there is. As far as teachers go, it's great.
- [87:29]
Host 2
Do you remember like an occasion where like. Anyways, the reason why I'm asking this and I'm sure you get it. It's just like I, I empathize because like this idea that you have, the only connection you've made is this 40 year old married man right where. It's where it started. Seemingly harmless, like he was being friendly and being nice, only for it to him to start making uncomfortable passes at you. And you have like no allies or friends at this work place. And then it's easy for me to say, well go to HR and say that. But I imagine that comes with a lot of anxiety and fear. Totally right.
- [88:07]
Victoria
And I, I don't know. And that's also, I guess a question I have is I don't know. I don't think it's gotten to that point where I have to. But it also might. I've never experienced this before.
- [88:15]
Host 2
I don't know, like how, how. What do you remember? Like what's the most uncomfortable situation you felt like you. He put you in?
- [88:25]
Victoria
There's been a couple, but they're the big. I feel like the big one where I was like, oh no, he for sure is hitting on me. He for sure is flirting with me, is he would ask to like hang out at school. He'd be like, oh, come to my classroom, we'll do this and that and watch movies and talk to one another. And I've always said no, no, no, like I have this, like, I've just kind of avoided that because I did know that he was married. And then over spring break, which was recently, he had messaged me about wanting to go to a spring training game together. And I was like, oh, like are you getting a work group together? Like is this like a thing like a co worker outing? And he was like, no, I have an extra ticket. And in my head I just was like, why don't you take your wife? So that made me really uncomfortable. And I said no to that. That was probably the biggest one. And then, oh, noticing he notices when my car is there super late, which just also kind of just raises red flag flags. Kind of crosses that line a little bit for me. I'm like, why? Like why do you care if I'm here? Why are you noticing my car is here?
- [89:22]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Also?
- [89:22]
Victoria
We Have. My car is the only one here late because I have the play. Like, I'm doing the after school play. So that kind of.
- [89:28]
Host 2
What's he doing other than watching?
- [89:30]
Victoria
That's what I'm saying. I have no idea. You don't have an after school program.
- [89:35]
Host 2
What were you hoping I would help you out with here? I guess. What, like, in your mind. I don't like my. I don't mean to pass this off because, like, again, like, I think the obvious answer is like, like, if it gets to a certain point where you start feeling unsafe, you need to speak up and say something about this. But I do want to recognize that that's easy for me to say and much harder from an execution standpoint. And unfortunately, too many women have been made to feel the consequences of speaking up and standing up for themselves, especially in a workplace for fear of retaliation. Chances are he knows more people, he has more friends. No one knows you. It's harder to give the benefit of a doubt to the stranger. You know, it can be scary, right? So I'm curious, like, what do you feel like your options are giving your current situation?
- [90:31]
Victoria
Giving my current situation. I do feel like I have set a boundary in place. I think I was looking at the. In this current moment talking to you. I think I was looking to see if I was actually seeing red flags or if I was overthinking it. When I had initially emailed in, I was questioning how do I set this boundary? And now I'm like, okay, now I'm just sitting here spiraling and overthinking and like, okay, am I validating the situation? Was as do. What do. Where do I go from here? I guess was. Am I. How do I phrase it? Am I vindicated or validated? Was I feeling the right things? Were the red flags raised for the right reason? Or is this totally innocent and I'm over the.
- [91:11]
Host 2
You're not overthinking it for sure. Yeah, I mean, you're. They're valid. The question is like, to me, it's like, the question is, how much of a concern is he right? Is, is this. This a guy who's like a little lonely? Clearly. Let's assume he's unhappy in his marriage and he befriended you and he's. He's made some inappropriate passes, but is he going to get the clue that you're not interested and ultimately just not be interested, be a threat to you or not, you know, like. Or is he just going to keep pushing correct to us to, you know. But where do you think where do you think you're at on that, like, kind of scale?
- [91:49]
Victoria
Every time I think it's done, and I'm like, he's not gonna message me anymore. He's not gonna say anything anymore. Something else pops up or he does find a way to contact me again. So I'm not sure. He could let it. It's been a couple of days. He could let it lie for a couple days, or he could come back next week, or I could never hear from him again.
- [92:06]
Host 2
Do you always respond, yes. Stop responding.
- [92:09]
Victoria
Okay. Like, completely.
- [92:11]
Host 2
If it doesn't require a response. And by require, I mean, like, work.
- [92:15]
Victoria
Right.
- [92:16]
Host 2
You know, that inviting you to the. After the game, you thought, oh, maybe it's like a group event. So, like, that made sense that you inquired more. If it's just, like. If it's just a random. If it feels really random and unnecessary, don't respond. If it feels. If it has nothing to do with work, I feel like you can. Don't respond. I think you always responding allows him to convince himself, well, at least she's responding. And I'm guessing you're probably trying to be polite. And so. Yeah, like, is there anything, you know, when you go back and read those messages, if you're him, if you're looking for a way to justify continuing to reach out, could he read those messages as. Not right now, now, as opposed to never?
- [93:01]
Victoria
Definitely.
- [93:02]
Host 2
Like, could he convince himself that you're playing hard to get?
- [93:05]
Victoria
Probably. Because the amount of times that he has said, like, oh, like, come to my room after work, or are you gonna be here over spring break? Let's. If you're here, like, let's get together. And I'm like, oh, like, I have things to do. Maybe another time.
- [93:20]
Host 2
Yeah. I honestly just think stop replying to that stuff and stop. Definitely stop saying another time.
- [93:28]
Victoria
Yeah. Yeah.
- [93:29]
Host 2
And I. And I think when you do that, I would just be. I don't want to say on high alert, but, like, be. I think first of all, find out who your HR person is.
- [93:39]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah.
- [93:39]
Host 2
You know, and maybe just even strike up a rapport casually, you know, just, like, get more information. Maybe. Maybe we're not at the time where you have to do that yet. But, like, just. I think just.
- [93:53]
Victoria
Just in case.
- [93:54]
Host 2
Just in case. Right. Because, like, there's. I guess there's always a chance you could stop replying and he could, like, I don't know. I don't want to scare you, but, like, maybe, like, approach you and corner you and just be like, why you respond. I don't know, like.
- [94:05]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Yeah.
- [94:06]
Victoria
And I mean, that is. I don't think you. Again, I don't think he would. But you never know.
- [94:10]
Host 2
You never know.
- [94:10]
Victoria
And I think if I am there late and I'm the only person there, and I am a girl, like, I don't want to.
- [94:15]
Host 2
Yeah, you should be prepared. So you shouldn't just know. In the meantime, I would just stop replying to things that you don't need to reply. Stop worrying about being rude.
- [94:25]
Victoria
Okay.
- [94:25]
Sarah (Caller 1)
And I.
- [94:26]
Victoria
That is a big fear of mine too, because like I said, this is the only person I really talked to at this job and formed some sort of a connection with. Have you tried, Like, I don't want to be mean.
- [94:37]
Host 2
Have you tried, like, when you're trying to talk to other women teachers, are they, like, ignoring you? Are they, like, what. What is.
- [94:44]
Victoria
No.
- [94:44]
Host 2
What is it just not vibing or what?
- [94:46]
Victoria
It's just not vibing. It's just not clear. I don't. I don't know what it is. I sort of. I've always wanted to be a teacher. It's always been my passion. And I guess I sort of romanticize the idea of, like, oh, I'm gonna meet this young group of girl teachers and we're all gonna go out for drinks afterwards and talk about the kids and talk about, you know, all this stuff. And I feel like maybe I'm trying too hard. Maybe that's what it is. Maybe it's like the conversations are too forced because I'm forcing myself to have them and it's rubbing them the wrong way.
- [95:14]
Host 1
Maybe.
- [95:15]
Host 2
But, like, I don't know, like. Like you're new and you're trying to get to know people, like.
- [95:20]
Victoria
Right.
- [95:21]
Host 2
What are you supposed to do exactly? Maybe I mean, this. Maybe this isn't your forever job. There's that.
- [95:27]
Victoria
Yeah.
- [95:28]
Host 2
And it sounds like you are trying to make friends, so I don't really have any notes for you on that.
- [95:33]
Victoria
Yeah.
- [95:33]
Host 2
So in the meantime, just stop replying and stop saying maybe in the future. And, you know, it's like, I feel like there's so many women listening to this who completely relate to what you're going through, sadly. And. And I've heard enough of these stories to understand that, like, yeah, part of being polite is to protect yourself and to not trigger a guy into feeling like, you know. But I think it's okay for you not to reply. You don't have to be rude. You can just not reply. And if he's like, if he sends you a text, oh, you don't have to. You don't want to reply. You, you could still not reply. Or you could just be like, sorry, really busy, just really short. Just really like, stop being friendly. Stop. Don't ask for his help anymore.
- [96:17]
Victoria
Yeah. And that's also another thing, is he did a big thing. He. The whole reason why we kept connecting is he built a lot of things for the school play that I'm putting on. I constantly asked, you know, can I help you? Is there a way I can reimburse you for this? You're taking the time out of your. He was building them on the weekends. Out of your weekend, your free time, when this is time that could be spent with your wife and you're building things for me for free.
- [96:43]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [96:45]
Victoria
And with theater, you. I have to give him like a shout out in, like our program and stuff, or I don't know if I have to, but I'm going to give
- [96:51]
Host 2
him a shout out. Yeah.
- [96:53]
Victoria
And then if he comes to the play and tries to talk or I don't, I don't. Do I engage in that.
- [96:58]
Host 2
Is that again, in a, in a public environment, you can be friendly, you can be polite. You, you should definitely go out of your way to avoid being alone. And yeah, it's unfortunate, like this tricky situation where he's, he did a nice thing for you. Nothing's free in this world. Clearly he wanted something from it. And, and you have to do this kind of tightrope walk of, of not responding and hope that he doesn't feel like, well, I did all this for you. And you give him a shout out.
- [97:27]
Victoria
Yeah.
- [97:27]
Host 2
Again, like, this is not like a, this is a professional atmosphere and I'm glad he stepped up and helped a fellow teacher. Teacher. And yes, by all means, give him the shout out, thank you, Mr. Smith, for building such wonderful designs for the kids. You did it for the kids. He didn't do it for you. He give him his flowers to the public. But yeah, you don't owe him anything. But, yeah, be professional and, but be, you know, be polite, but be professional. And if he's texting you unprofessional things, you don't need to respond.
- [97:53]
Victoria
Yeah.
- [97:54]
Host 2
And I think the hope is he finally, he will get that. I don't know if he will, but that's the hope. I don't know if I'm in a position to give you this advice, but the question you have to ask yourself is, does it make sense to give him a chance to say, hey, listen, I'm sure you mean well, but this doesn't feel appropriate hanging out with you like a friend, like you're married or are you better off going straight to the hr? I don't have that answer. I bet there are people who, who professionals. Like I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Because like yeah, it would be. Before you do the thing where you kind of tell on him, would you give him the opportunity to say just if it hasn't been clear already, I just like listen, you're a great, I appreciate all your help, I really do. But like it, it and, and whether you meant it or not, like some of the interactions make me like feel like it's crossing, you know, going beyond a professional relationship. And I, you know, just, could you be mindful of that? And I'd love that to just, just stop. But that's honestly the biggest question you might need to ask yourself is like, is the next step going to HR or is it giving him the opportunity one more time? But before you decide on that, I would probably check in with someone who like, maybe, I don't know, someone in HR or friend. There's probably some like, hey, honestly, chat GPT.
- [99:15]
Victoria
Like it's the best.
- [99:17]
Host 2
Yeah, like I don't think it's the best for everything but they're, they're, they're, there's probably some like HR what to do in these situation guidances. You might be able to get just like standard HR policy that might give you personal perspective just from like, oh, I didn't consider that that could happen. But like I think you're, you are better off if you, if you know someone who is actually in this field or has a perspective, they might be helpful. But to me that sounds like the next big decision you have to make if not responding to him doesn't do the trick.
- [99:53]
Victoria
So we are kind of, that's kind of where I'm at. Today is the last time we engaged. He had messaged me about my car being there and I didn't answer because I was at the point of I'm just not gonna acknowledge this guy anymore. I'm not gonna communicate with him anymore if it's not work related. I made that decision. I had not communicated that to him. And then a few hours later he, oops, he messaged me back and had said, I don't know what's going on. We were so cool. And now you're not an like what? I. I'm your co worker and I deserve an explanation. He told me he deserves an explanation or he feels like he deserves an Explanation. And I just said, look. Yeah, and I just said, I appreciate what you. I basically said what you said. I said, I appreciate everything you've done to help with the show going forward. I don't want to, I don't, I don't remember word for word or verbatim what I said, but I said, going forward, I don't wish to communicate if it's not work related. And he said, victoria, I'm so lost. I don't get it. But okay, I'll take this as we don't communicate anymore. And I just didn't answer. And that's been. That.
- [101:01]
Host 2
That's the last time you've had interactions. How long ago was that?
- [101:05]
Victoria
That was on Monday or Tuesday and it's Friday, so two, three days ago.
- [101:11]
Host 2
Okay, definitely find out who your HR person is. Because like, then, then. So you've done the thing that. Yeah. So you've already done that.
- [101:19]
Victoria
Yeah. So if he does, if he reaches out again, I think then I would need to take the next step, put that boundary in place because I felt like I had to.
- [101:26]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [101:27]
Victoria
So, yeah, I guess next step would
- [101:29]
Host 2
be to contact hr, any reasonable guy. Like if, if, you know, let's, let's try to give him some grace and benefit of the doubt. If, for possible, let's assume.
- [101:37]
Victoria
I feel like I've been doing that too much.
- [101:39]
Host 2
Yeah, you definitely have. You definitely have. I don't like, I don't. But to be clear, I don't think he deserves it. But let's just for the sake of, you know, a thought exercise, we give him a lot of grace. He's my peace of mind. He's unhappy in his marriage. I don't know. But we all as human beings have tough moments. And when we have tough moments and when we're not happy, we get sloppy or make poor decisions and our conscience is cloudy and yada, yada, yada. Right. So up into this point, if we really tried, maybe we could just try to give them some grace. But here you finally did the thing, you did the uncomfortable thing where you tried as politely as possible but as direct as possible to set a boundary. Boundary with him. And any reasonable guy who is married, who has like a lot to lose, a reputation, their job, you know, all these things, that's. That should be the wake up call that he needs. Right. And if he doesn't, and if this is not enough, then that would be really concerning to me.
- [102:34]
Victoria
Yeah.
- [102:35]
Host 2
You know, because you've given you, this guy a very gentle out to just stop and he has you know, he can just hope that you're not going to say anything or tell anyone and then he could just, you know, his response of I'm just confused, but okay, you know, his confusion might just be of his own actions, but he's probably a little like, feels a little silly, a little, you know, but the hope is that was, that was a wake up call.
- [102:56]
Victoria
And then I feel bad that he is uncomfortable and that he feels lost. So I'm like, do I give at this point? It's been days, it's been days so I'm not going to. But of course in the moment I was like, do I give? Give further expl. Like I don't want him sitting there, beat himself up about this, but he
- [103:13]
Host 2
should beat himself up.
- [103:14]
Host 1
He made some poor decisions.
- [103:16]
Host 2
You know, again, like I'm glad he helped you out but like again like he invited you to a baseball, he, he asked you on a date, right?
- [103:24]
Victoria
And there. And to me that's how I took it too. But then I also was giving him the benefit of the doubt like because he said this is what co workers do and this is what he's justifying
- [103:34]
Host 2
his actions like, like he doesn't ask a 24 year old woman out just because they're a coworker and he's, you know, like.
- [103:40]
Victoria
And again though he, I have a plus one. I'm like, then take your wife. Why you gotta take.
- [103:43]
Host 2
Or a buddy or, or a male coworker or, you know, again, he knows better.
- [103:49]
Sarah (Caller 1)
I don't know.
- [103:50]
Host 2
He knows better. He's trying to act dumb. You've been more than gracious and that's why I think it's really important for you to understand who, who you need to go to if you need to go to someone. Because I do think now that you, you've already had that conversation, that is the logical next step. Because if he doesn't use this as a wake up call and go, wait, you know what? Honestly, I was, I was flying too close to the sun there. She's giving me an out here. I can just, we can just pretend I was never weird to my 24 year old woman employee while I'm married and thank my lucky stars that like she gave me that grace and I can now I'm just going to be a fucking professional and just be normal and I'm gonna try to avoid her and she'll avoid me and like we can just forget that ever happened and maybe I need to figure out my at home, like that's the appropriate response if he doesn't do that then, like, I mean that this should be a wake up call.
- [104:42]
Victoria
Yeah, I, I would hope so. And someone brought to my attention too. Oh. Maybe I should give him more of an explanation. That way if he does it again or if he has these feelings towards another co worker, he gets, it's. He understands exactly where he went wrong. I'm like, but that's not mine.
- [104:58]
Host 2
You're not. It's not your job. It's not your responsibility. He's an adult man. You know, it's not. No.
- [105:03]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Okay.
- [105:03]
Host 2
He should know better. He probably does know better. It's like, just because we do dumb things doesn't mean we don't know better. We just convince ourselves in the, in the in, in the moment of why this, why we're different, why this situation's different. I'm not really doing the thing that like everyone would think I would be doing. Oh, it's not a date or whatever. Like, he's lying to himself and he's playing games with themselves and we all do this, right? Like it's a human thing to do. And every once in a while people give us grace and give us an out. Like you gave him grace and he can use again. They can use this as a wake up call or not. And the people who like. And if he can't, if he can't connect the dots, then it's definitely not your job to explain it. And it might require you having to say something because you shouldn't be made to feel this way at work.
- [105:48]
Victoria
I don't think so either. And there is. I don't. Again, I don't think anything is going to happen. Or maybe I'm just telling myself that, but I. I do see at work, our classrooms are pretty close to each other. I am there late. Why he's there late, I don't know. But I want to make sure I'm, you know, safe.
- [106:02]
Host 2
And like, yeah, he probably won't do it. He's probably there late because he doesn't want to go home and hates his wife or something and.
- [106:08]
Victoria
Exactly. And like, there's a reason he's not going home. So something else is going on that's not my business, but don't get me involved.
- [106:15]
Host 2
Like, yeah, I'm sorry you're going through this. It sucks. It sucks.
- [106:19]
Sarah (Caller 2)
That's okay. Thank you.
- [106:20]
Host 2
Find out, find out who you need to talk to because I think that, I think we're at that point, if it continues 10 years.
- [106:26]
Victoria
Okay. And it's crazy that that never even. You said who's your HR person? I was like, why did I never even like, think to bring this to someone's attention?
- [106:34]
Host 1
Well, it's not, it's not easy to
- [106:35]
Host 2
do and we want to give people the benefit of the doubt. And, and I imagine a lot of women in your situation start, you know, blaming yourself, oh, was I too flirty? Did I give them the wrong impression?
- [106:45]
Victoria
You know, like, which is 100, what I'm sitting here eating myself about, like, what did I, where did I go go wrong?
- [106:51]
Host 2
Nowhere. You know, you were, you were a new person at a job, looking for a familiar face, having a hard time making friends. And quite frankly, he probably took a little bit of advantage of that and, and you needed help and he was willing to give you help and you didn't do anything wrong. And he should know better.
- [107:08]
Victoria
And he did in fact tell me that I am the one making this weird and uncomfortable. So I think that's where I'm also like, did I?
- [107:16]
Host 2
That's his being a bit little, he's being a little gaslighty. And you didn't respond to that, right?
- [107:21]
Victoria
No, that one I did not respond to.
- [107:23]
Host 2
Again, he should know better. I mean, he should know better. He's a teacher. It's not like some guy who's worked at a coal mine who doesn't know how to act around women. You know what I'm saying? Like he, no, for sure, he of all people should know better. You know, he's an educator, he's around, he works with a lot of women, he teaches young girls. Like he should have this type of self awareness. And again, we all make mistakes and chance that. I'm hopeful that chances are even despite what he said to you, because that's what we say when we feel embarrassed and we try to like put it on the other person and yada, yada, yada. But again, the big question is, is how is he going to move going, is he going to respect this? Is he going to move? Is he going to, is he going to use this as a second? Because you truly gave him a second chance.
- [108:09]
Victoria
I feel like, yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [108:11]
Host 2
You could have already well defined second chance.
- [108:14]
Victoria
I guess because what I'm saying, like,
- [108:16]
Host 2
you know, you could have easily been like, you could have go talk to someone, maybe it's like a counselor and say, hey, I'm in a tough spot here, obviously I'm new Mr. Whatever the fuck, you know. And it kind of escalated and now I'm just getting. You have text messages sent, you have the receipts, you have him inviting your game. It's not like you're accusing him of something like, super nefarious, but you have enough there to go to someone and say, it's making me a little uncomfortable. I've asked him to stop. And that, like, anyone, if you were to report that somehow it would be the requirement of the person you're reporting to do something. And then, you know, like, it's 20, 26, you know, it's just like I do. Unfortunately, I think still things get swept under the rug. But, like, I think we're. We're more, you know, it's. It's. We are acknowledging the importance of speaking up. And you really gave him some grace and you didn't have to do that.
- [109:07]
Sarah (Caller 1)
That.
- [109:07]
Host 2
And I hope that he realizes that his marriage may already be over, but he's about to blow. Like, you know, there's a lot of people who make some really bad decisions in these moments, and he's. He sounds like he's been on this path, and thank God you weren't interested, and thank God you were, you know, but that's. That's his journey. You've done enough, and you've given him enough grace, but protect yourself and, and find out who you need to talk to if it comes down to it. And, you know, keep trying to make friends and, and maybe this isn't your forever place.
- [109:35]
Victoria
Yeah. Which I don't think. I mean, it's my first teaching job. You know, I imagine I will go to another school at some point, but, yeah, it does kind of suck that I'm like, dang, Like, I really wanted to make friends. And the first one, I felt like I somewhat made it, even though I didn't. I didn't picture us hanging out. But, you know, the first.
- [109:52]
Host 2
You seem like a lovely enough person who. Like, who, like, who, you know, like,
- [109:57]
Victoria
I'm really questioning it now. I'm like, dang, what am I doing?
- [110:00]
Host 2
Yeah, I don't know. I'm. I'm. Honestly, I've never. I've never been a teacher, but it would think. Yeah, you would think someone would want to, like, you know, get to know you.
- [110:11]
Victoria
You would think I'm. Again, I. I would think I'm like, I think I'm a fun person, but who knows? Maybe I just need to, like, flat out ask, hey, what are you. Do you guys do anything after school?
- [110:21]
Host 2
Honestly, like, maybe with a. Like to say, you know, I've.
- [110:24]
Sarah (Caller 2)
I'm.
- [110:24]
Host 2
I'm new here. Like, I'm a hard time making friends here. Maybe find the, like, Is there someone that you could just be vulnerable enough with to just say, you know, like it's, it's tough making friends here. I've really tried. Can you have some advice for me? You know? Yeah, like another woman, A woman your age?
- [110:40]
Victoria
Yeah, I think a lot of the teachers there too have been there for a couple years. So I am new, so I think they've kind of, it's not that it's clicky, but they've already kind of established their, their groupings and their friends.
- [110:50]
Host 2
And then what if you figure out about all like all the women that are relatively your age, maybe you send like an email about like make it like almost like an, you know, you're, you're, you know, teachers all seem to be good organizers. You created this after school program. But what if it's just like, hey guys, I'm just new here. Maybe this sounds weird but like I'd love to like get to know my, my, my peers and I'm having a hard time making friends and I don't know what's going on in all your lives, but if there's anyone out there who like wants to do some like after school stuff on the weekend or if you're also looking for friendships, like just let me know, know and, and it's real gentle, real vulnerable, but it's just about friendships and see who takes you up on that.
- [111:27]
Victoria
Yeah, no, I think, I think they would take me. I think if I put, if I say it like that I think they would take me up and I don't think it's anyone dislikes me. I just think we just haven't had
- [111:35]
Host 2
the time, you know. Unfortunately nowadays in 2026, we're so used to texting our vulnerability or emailing it, it's hard to do it face to face. So maybe put that out there in like a little email to the ladies and like a group chat. Be like, and say like I almost would, I'd love to start like some kind of like for anyone who out there who like is single or like has some free time or just looking for, to make friends at work, let me know and I'd love to. Maybe we can organize something.
- [112:01]
Victoria
Yeah, for sure. And that was a thing he, the older teacher had said too about, oh, this is what co workers do. I'm like, really? Where, where, where are the other ones then? Because I don't see anyone to do.
- [112:13]
Host 1
Listen, he's partly right, but he's using.
- [112:15]
Host 2
He, he's normal. Like he's, it's, it's manipulative he knows what he's doing.
- [112:19]
Victoria
Yeah.
- [112:20]
Host 2
All right, well, sorry you're dealing with this. It sounds like you're handling it the best you can. Find out who your person is. Reach out to the girls at work. You've given him a ton of grace. You're not crazy. You've done nothing wrong. That's.
- [112:31]
Victoria
Thank you. More than anything, I've been spiraling, so that's not.
- [112:35]
Sarah (Caller 2)
I'm.
- [112:35]
Victoria
I communicate with teenagers all day, so it's nice to hear from an adrenaline old.
- [112:38]
Host 2
So, yeah, you've. You've been more than gracious. You've given this guy a lifeline he doesn't deserve. And I wouldn't give him another one.
- [112:46]
Victoria
Okay, Noted. Very much.
- [112:48]
Host 2
Okay.
- [112:49]
Sarah (Caller 2)
Okay.
- [112:49]
Victoria
Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.
- [112:51]
Host 2
All right. Good luck out there.
- [112:53]
Victoria
Thank you.
- [112:53]
Host 2
Keep us posted. I'd love to know what happens next.
- [112:55]
Victoria
Yes. If he reaches out, I'll give you guys an update.
- [112:58]
Host 2
Okay. All right, Take care.
- [112:59]
Victoria
You too.
- [113:00]
Host 2
All right. Bye.
- [113:00]
Sarah (Caller 1)
Bye. Bye.
- [113:15]
Host 1
The bhouse is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.
- [113:17]
Host 2
Do you ever find yourself playing a budgeting game?
- [113:19]
Host 1
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Not available in all states.
- [113:34]
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