E1169 - Friendly Coworker or HR Violation? | Ask Nick

Summary

The Viall Files (Ep. 1169) – Friendly Coworker or HR Violation? | Ask Nick Release Date: August 10, 2026 | Host: Nick Viall

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Episode Overview

In this “Ask Nick” episode, Nick Viall tackles three in-depth relationship dilemmas ranging from toxic patterns and personal boundaries to workplace discomfort and navigating parental influence as an adult. With his signature blend of humor, candor, and compassion, Nick helps callers sort through confusion, anxiety, and second-guessing—along the way offering thought-provoking advice about self-worth, boundaries, and the ever-messy business of human connection.

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Key Callers & Discussion Points

1. Leanne—Accused for Missing a Text: Red Flags or Self-Sabotage?

[00:14–36:20]

Context & Main Issue

• Leanne, 41, finally feels loved in her two-year-long, long-distance relationship, but frequent arguments have her wondering: Is she ignoring red flags, or self-sabotaging?
• Her boyfriend becomes anxious and accuses her of cheating if she doesn't respond to texts quickly (15–20 minutes).
• These accusations erupt into cycles of conflict, causing Leanne significant anxiety and hyper-vigilance about her phone.

Main Discussion Points

• Patterns of Accusation: Incidents seem to follow a repetitive, unresolved cycle—even after apologies ([04:51]).
• Attempts to Reassure: Leanne has offered location sharing, but her boyfriend declines; she’s tried to eliminate his Facebook “online” triggers ([05:30], [06:13]).
• Emotional Toll: Leanne admits, “I am a terrible person of keeping up with my phone. And he sees it when I’m at his house” ([07:41]); she’s now anxious about normal phone use or being slow to respond.
• Rationalizing the Good: Despite the negative cycles, Leanne highlights her partner’s positive traits—consistent family time, willingness to make time for her, and being “so much better” than her ex ([08:18]).
• Nick's Guidance:
  • Calls out the emotional toll: “Your relationship right now...is causing you to be hyper anxious...on edge and it’s the relationship that's causing you to be on edge” ([07:52]).
  • Highlights lack of sustainable change: Apologies alone aren’t enough; repeated patterns indicate deeper issues ([09:18]).
  • Suggests couples and individual therapy, and emphasizes the importance of expressing specific needs and boundaries ([09:18], [27:41]).
  • Validates her self-awareness, advises against internalizing blame, and discusses the importance of patience and happiness ("There are no experts when it comes to dating..." [24:27]).
  • Encourages direct communication and possibly setting an ultimatum if no concrete change occurs ([27:41], [34:45]).

Notable Quotes

• Nick: “No one wants to be accused of this type of behavior. And…no one wants to feel anxious because they didn’t get back to their partner…and like you’re being watched.” ([19:07])
• Leanne: “I have two fears in this relationship: One is, am I gonna make him angry? Two is, do I need to leave?” ([26:01])
• Nick: “You have the rest of your life to find your person…there’s no cost to prioritizing your happiness.” ([22:45])
• Nick: “The only way that you'd make the wrong decision is if…five years from now you call me up and you’re like, yeah, same guy, same feeling, same cycle.” ([36:02])

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2. Alex—When a Coworker’s Chattiness Crosses a Line

[36:51–71:50]

Context & Main Issue

• Alex, 33, works mostly alone in an office whose only other occupant—a male coworker nearly 50—begins to seek her out, first for lunch (framed as vendor-related), then for more personal and persistent interactions.
• He sends numerous teams messages, makes slightly inappropriate comments (about her photo making her look "way bigger"), and persistently asks for her attention—even after she mentions her boyfriend and pulls back.
• Alex feels uncomfortable and conflicted: Should she report his behavior to HR, or is it just awkwardness and her being "a cat" (introvert) to his "dog" (extrovert)?

Main Discussion Points

• The Blurred Line Between Awkward & Inappropriate: Nick leans toward an interpretation of social awkwardness and loneliness over true harassment ([46:05], [47:12]).
• Intention vs. Impact: While Alex feels justifiably uncomfortable, Nick highlights that not all discomfort is evidence of malice; sometimes people are just “obnoxious” ([50:46]).
• Responsibility and Boundaries: Nick encourages Alex not to overthink it, to stop feeling burdened by managing this man’s feelings, and to simply reduce interactions without guilt ([53:39], [66:35]).
• Ruminating & Work Culture: The segment explores how post-pandemic, introversion and boundaries have become normalized, sometimes making any office small talk feel invasive ([51:20], [64:20]).

Notable Quotes

• Nick: “You have the right to not feel awkward at work… but it sounds like…once you…you can’t unpush that button [if you report].” ([48:07])
• Alex: “I hate that I feel like I’m left with this burden to carry…his awkwardness has now kind of become my burden… How am I in this position?” ([59:25])
• Nick: “What if you just told yourself you work with Michael Scott?” ([60:59])
• Nick: “Try to talk about this less...It’s kind of fun to listen. It’s a fascinating little debate. It’s nuanced.” ([67:31], [68:09])
• Alex: “I just don’t want to care about his feelings at all.” ([68:25])
• Nick: “We have all turned into cats in a way, obsessed with our boundaries and our personal space and our lived experience and our comforts and our feelings… All valid to a certain degree, but…there is the whole human experience.” ([64:20])
• Advice: Nick encourages Alex to trust her gut, avoid fueling drama by venting excessively with friends, and not be afraid of seeming “rude” for setting clear workplace boundaries ([66:35], [68:09]).

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3. Lauren—Is My Relationship Problem Really About My Mom?

[71:55–96:14]

Context & Main Issue

• Lauren, 29, is engaged to her partner of five years with whom she has two children, but struggles with his emotional unavailability and lack of words of affirmation.
• Complicating things: Her mom is highly critical of men and projects her own toxic relationship history onto Lauren’s relationship, sometimes undermining Lauren’s confidence or pushing her to leave.
• Lauren wrestles with whether these partnership issues are genuine, or colored by her mom’s negativity.

Main Discussion Points

• Validation vs. Projection: Nick helps Lauren separate her dissatisfaction from her mom’s influence, noting her fiancé sounds “wonderful” in many ways, with the main shortcoming being nonverbal, Acts of Service love language ([75:16], [77:03]).
• Love Languages: The couple struggles as Lauren craves affirmation while her fiancé shows affection through acts; Nick suggests ongoing gentle nudges, not corrective confrontation ([79:08]).
• Setting Boundaries with Mom: Lauren’s mom is controlling—tracking Lauren on a family app, inserting negative opinions, and even showing up unannounced. Nick stresses the need for clear, consistent boundaries to prevent further dysfunction ([82:05], [85:24], [89:32]).
• Emotional Power Dynamics: Nick likens dealing with the mom to gentle parenting a child—loving but firm, not allowing emotional manipulation or threats to drive decisions ([87:26], [94:45]).
• Preserving Family Harmony: Advice centers on detaching from the need for maternal approval and focusing on Lauren’s own lived experience, choices, and family stability.

Notable Quotes

• Nick: “It’s going to be a challenge for you to enforce these boundaries. And you gotta push yourself to enforce these boundaries without feeling guilty about it, because it’s in no one’s best interest for your mom to keep moving the way she’s doing.” ([94:45])
• Nick: “You obviously have a lot of love for your mom, so it’s going to be difficult… but you’re not being mean and vindictive. And that’s not in your—It’s not in your nature.” ([94:28])
• Nick: “Try to see her like you see your kid. I’m serious…you’re certainly not gonna let your kid walk all over you.” ([87:23])
• Nick: “There are consequences…if your mom’s not going to respect your wishes…then there’s consequences to not respecting someone’s personal boundary.” ([89:46])
• Lauren: “I want my fiancé and her to have a good relationship. But if that’s not gonna happen, that’s not, I guess, not my fault.” ([90:52])

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Episode Timeline (Key Timestamps)

• [00:14–36:20]: Leanne—Relationship Red Flags vs. Self-Sabotage
• [36:51–71:50]: Alex—Friendly Coworker or HR Issue?
• [71:55–96:14]: Lauren—Emotional Availability, Love Languages & Setting Parental Boundaries

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Notable Moments & Takeaways

• Pattern Recognition: Nick consistently encourages callers to recognize signs of unsustainable or unhealthy cycles (especially regarding repeated apologies or unaddressed anxieties).
• Direct Communication & Empowerment: Across all calls, Nick emphasizes the power of direct, honest communication—laying out one’s feelings and needs, and expecting proactive effort and change.
• Self-Reflection vs. Overthinking: Multiple instances highlight the fine line between healthy self-examination and unproductive rumination, with Nick coaching callers to listen to their gut, not social scripts or outside noise.
• Boundaries Without Guilt: Particularly in familial relationships, Nick underscores that setting boundaries is not mean-spirited but necessary for adult autonomy and family peace.

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Final Thoughts

This episode interweaves the complexities of trust, work-life boundaries, emotional connection, and intergenerational influences, shining a spotlight on the gray areas between red flags and misunderstandings, self-care and self-doubt. Through Nick’s practical, empathetic advice, listeners are reminded that while we can’t control everything, we can—and should—choose what (and whom) we allow to disturb our peace.

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For fans of real talk on relationships, boundaries, and messy human moments, this Ask Nick delivers both empathy and actionable wisdom.

Transcript

[Leanne / Lauren]

You're crazy.

[Nick]

How's it going?

[Leanne]

Hi, I'm leanne. I am 41, and I have finally found a man that I feel really loved by. But every time we get into an argument, I feel like I'm wondering if I am ignoring red flags or if I am sabotaging the relationship.

[Nick]

Okay. All right, well, let's see if we can figure it out. A couple of questions off the bat. How long you guys been dating?

[Leanne]

We have been dating. Right. At about two years. Probably the hardest part of our relationship is we are a long distance.

[Nick]

Okay. How long?

[Leanne]

Right now? He lives about an hour and a half away.

[Nick]

A drive?

[Leanne]

Yes. Okay.

[Nick]

Not terrible. How long?

[Leanne]

He does work on the road sometimes. Okay.

[Nick]

Okay. So, yeah, you're not seeing him as much as you'd like in terms of your relationship experience up into this point. Where. Where. Where does this guy kind of fall? Is he, like, a first love? Have you been married before? Like, where. Where is your.

[Leanne]

Oh, yeah.

[Nick]

What's your experience level in terms of love and relationships? And where does this land for you?

[Leanne]

Well, I guess my first relationship that makes a difference in life today was in college when I had my son. I wasn't.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Leanne]

And then I was. And then I got married and had a child, and now I've since divorced.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Leanne]

And here I am dating. I have had one boyfriend before, my current boyfriend. Okay. And he has a similar backstory.

[Nick]

Awesome. Well, that's. That's helpful context. So I guess just kind of curiosity, what are the potential red flags that you think you're not sure whether you should give more attention to or. They're just typical relationship friction.

[Leanne]

He gets upset with me sometimes, and that's just how I word it. I don't like for people to be upset with me. But, like, he even gets so far that, like, he wants to accuse me. Like, he's so mad he wants to accuse me, like, cheating.

[Nick]

Okay. So, I mean, like, certainly everyone has a right to get upset with friends and. And partners and, you know, I guess it's how they get upset and what they do when they get upset is the big question. And, like, when he's accusing you of cheating, where is that coming from? Is it, like, out of space? Like, completely made up?

[Leanne]

Like, the biggest. The biggest issue that I had with the fighting. I seriously. I did not text him back for 20 minutes. He knew I was at work. He accused me of not really being at work. And apparently whenever he doesn't hear from me for, like, 15, 20 minutes, he starts to get anxious, and apparently I Get this habit of checking my Facebook, like right before I leave work. Like, I didn't even know I did that, but apparently I did. And so, like, he would even notice that, like, oh, well, she's checked her Facebook this many minutes ago. I think she left work then. And so it comes down to he has accused me of cheating because of that little timeline. And then I get super frustrated. I just get mad immediately whenever I'm being accused of cheating.

[Nick]

Right, for sure. That makes sense. And wait, so how are you cheating in his mind? Because you went on Facebook because, like, you didn't reply to him. Like, what if couldn't she be like, at the grocery store or oh, yeah,

[Leanne]

not driving, what his mind goes to.

[Nick]

Right, right. And just out of curiosity, when he points this out to you or reacts, let's say he gets anxious. You know, maybe he's anxiously attached or whatever that is. Is he at least as he comes down from his anxiousness or after you do call him back, is he recognizing the overreaction?

[Leanne]

It can take days, but yes.

[Nick]

So he does. It takes him a long time, but he does acknowledge that.

[Leanne]

He does. Typically.

[Nick]

Okay, does he apologize?

[Leanne]

He does.

[Nick]

And then when it happens again, what? You know, let's say this situation you're describing happened once. Let's say it happened the first time. And then let's say it took him a couple days to. Yeah, I guess maybe I overreacted. And then. And then like a couple of weeks ago by. And then he does it again. Right. Like, what is the second time? How does he respond?

[Leanne]

Is it like it's just the same exact cycle? Every.

[Nick]

That seems like a red flag. Yeah, I don't know that. I mean, it's. It seems. Well, one, you're not doing anything wrong, right?

[Leanne]

100%.

[Nick]

What are you supposed to do differently? Not go on Facebook. Like, are you supposed to. Like, are you supposed to wear a Bluetooth in your ear constantly so that when he calls that you never miss a call? Like, what is his solution to this problem that he seems to have? Because it does seem like it's solely centered around his delusion and insecurities and anxiety. And what are you supposed to do?

[Leanne]

Right? It is definitely his insecurities. And like, I know couples have it to where they can see each other's location. So I've offered for us to share locations. He says no.

[Nick]

Yeah, but that's only, that's only non toxic. Like Natalie and I do that now because it's just like, it's sometimes just easier to check her location. Than. Than. Than text her or when are you going to be home? And. And I. Obviously, it's just good to know that I can, you know, it's. It is not to be a watchdog because I don't trust her. Like.

[Leanne]

That's right.

[Nick]

Yeah. That's not the intention. So, like, if you want to share your location, great. But, like, offering to share your location so your boyfriend stops accusing you of cheating, you know, that's super productive.

[Leanne]

Yeah, no, it's not. And I do have it now to where he can't tell if I'm online on Facebook or not, and which. I don't know. I mean, I barely. I feel like I barely get on there. I'm surprised that there's a pattern.

[Nick]

Does he recognize. Does he recognize this is a problem?

[Leanne]

Yes, he does. He does. I'm sorry. I'm starting to get emotional about it. Like, honestly, probably since I sent in the email, which it was a while ago that I sent in the email, we had like, gosh, three or four weeks of just terrible. It was pretty much like, constant something coming up. Like, we broke up one time, we broke up, like, 20 minutes one time, we broke up for a day, one time, we broke up for a weekend. Right now we are doing better.

[Nick]

But who's breaking up with who?

[Leanne]

I guess it's more me because I'm just, like, so, like, mad at the way he treats me whenever. I mean, I haven't done anything. Like, I mean, now I know there are times I can react better to some argument, so I'm sure I'm not perfect all the time, but. So I'm the one that's walking away. But, like, there are times now that, like, I'm scared for my phone to be able to breach and I am a terrible person of keeping up with my phone. And he sees it when I'm at his house.

[Nick]

You're afraid of what again? Say that again. Your phone.

[Leanne]

Like, I'm afraid of, like, losing my phone. Like, not keeping up with my phone because I'm going to miss a text from him and then he's going to get angry with me. Like, so it got this anxiety in me.

[Nick]

Yeah. So basically your relationship right now, as it stands, is causing you to be hyper anxious and. And you're like, you're. I mean, like, your cortisol levels, like, constantly. Like, but you're just, you're. You're. You're on edge and it's the relationships that's causing you to be on edge. So, like, it's like.

[Leanne]

But he is a great man, though. Like, there are so many great things about him.

[Nick]

Like what?

[Leanne]

I do feel myself sometimes comparing him to my ex. So, like, it's like he's so much better. Like, my ex would not make time for me. Like, even if he was tired, like, I don't know, it was just always about how he felt. And so this man, he just, he makes time for me no matter how busy his schedule is. Okay. Right now he's only working an hour and a half away, 40 hours a week, but here, in a little bit, he is going to probably be like five or six hours away, working 50, 60 plus hours a week. And he's always going to make the time for me. And then when we are together, because he has a daughter, I have two children, like, he's just always about, like, you know, we have family time and like, it just, it feels special and yeah, I guess we just both appreciate the same things, like quality time together.

[Nick]

Okay, that's great. I mean, like, you know that this is a problem and you know that it's not sustainable. And it sounds like he knows it's a problem. And I can't sit here and tell you, like, you know, here are five steps to. But, you know, like, I think this would be like a really great, you know, a perfect opportunity for like couples therapy and maybe individual therapy for him. I mean, if he needs, like, forget about setting aside therapy. Like, you need to be able to say to him, listen, I love you and I love a lot of things about a relationship and here's all the things I appreciate, but I'm not doing anything wrong. And it's one thing to have a moment of insecurity and anxiousness, but like, you, you are constantly accusing me to the point where this is how I feel. And I am tired of. I can't keep feeling like I'm scared to make you angry. And you even recognize that you get triggered. So I need you to deal with your triggers and I need us as a couple to figure out how, you know, because no matter how good he is at times this bad is so bad that like, you, you know, you're not happy and you're constantly on edge. And when you are with him, the limited time you do get with him, it sounds like most of the recent discussions are about this whole ordeal. So, like, he needs to recognize while he's having a hard time controlling his emotions, he needs to at least recognize when he's not triggered that it's not okay how he reacts. And he has to. He has to be able to be like, I don't want to act this way, and I don't want you to make you feel this way, so let's do something about it. Because clearly you've tried to argue with him. That's not going to change. I can only imagine that when you guys start arguing, it probably gets into the weeds and has really nothing to do with, you know, actually solving the problem.

[Leanne]

Well, he just says that I just get really stubborn, which.

[Nick]

Stubborn about what? Stubborn about what? Like, if he were. Yeah. If he were on this call, what would he. What would he say to me? What would be his defense or his explanation?

[Leanne]

I don't know. I don't know what it would be.

[Nick]

Guess.

[Leanne]

But, I mean, I think he knows it's his insecurities.

[Nick]

But you do think he would be like, yeah, I do that. I don't know why. Like, I. You think he would acknowledge it?

[Leanne]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And you think he would be like, yeah, I know she's. I know she's not cheating. And. And, like, I'm not.

[Leanne]

There are. There are times he's like, you are the sweetest person. And he was like that. He's like, that is what I love about you. Like, you're such a sweet. And it gets to where, like, I feel like he's attacking my character because he sees me as someone that's willing to cheat on him.

[Nick]

How. How. How. How often is he accusing you of this? And then when he is accusing you, how intense is the accusations? Are the accusations.

[Leanne]

No, it's been like two or three times. And if it's not that, I mean, he has straight up said, I know you're cheating. And one time I seriously sent him the pen, and I was like, here I am. Look up this pen. See if you think I'm at work. And then, like, I was just so mad. I was like, but just leave me alone for now. I mean, I was just so angry that I was at work. And he was like, no, you're cheating. But even if it isn't the cheating, it's. I mean, I know there was one time, like, he did it, and, like, I don't know, like, my phone was not in the same room with me, but I was scrubbing the kitchen floor to clean that day. And then I up and find my phone and see that he has just blown my phone up. And, like, so part of it is also maybe a little bit me.

[Nick]

What? Why is it you?

[Leanne]

So some of the time. So, like, when he accuses me of cheating. Yes, he's gone. Too far. But so I do go and I see a therapist. Right now I'm only seeing her every other month. Okay. But I was talking to her about it. I was like, he was just so mean to me because I do a weekly or a monthly group with some ladies, and I wasn't texting him back in a matter. And the right amount of time.

[Nick]

What's the right.

[Leanne]

I should have already been done. Whatever.

[Nick]

What is the right amount of time?

[Leanne]

I mean, that time, I think it was 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes. Like, they are not, like, to me, I think an hour or two is when you should start to get worried. But 10 to 15 minutes, I think is.

[Nick]

Well, also, it just depends if my wife is like, hey, I'm gonna go. I don't know, do something. Maybe she goes to a movie. And she's like, yeah, true. And, you know, I'm not expecting her to. I mean, I guess now that we have kids, she's gonna have her fun on it in case of her. But you know what I'm saying? Like.

[Leanne]

Right. And so. But anyways, I was talking to my therapist about it, and I ended up just reading her the text because it's all on text. And she looks at me and she's like, those aren't mean. And so, like, sometimes he's not always mean, but then I just get so angry.

[Nick]

Anyway, you are. You. Can you give me an example? Well, I mean, I. I'm just going off what you're telling me, and, like, he is accusing you of cheating because you didn't respond in 10 minutes.

[Leanne]

Yeah, well, not every single time. Yeah, he's. He's accusing you cheating, like, three times. But then the other.

[Nick]

Even if he's, like, doing. Even if he's like, I think I know you're cheating on me. And he says and whispers, I. Again, like, it's. It's uncomfortable to be accused of something that you're not doing and to have your character be in question. So, like, I don't. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. I don't know.

[Leanne]

And so even when he isn't accusing me of cheating, like, I feel like it's still to that same degree just because he has before.

[Nick]

So what. What is your therapist read on the situation that you're overreacting?

[Leanne]

Well, that time she was just like, he's not even being mean. I'm like, Well, I was like, if I was there, I think you'd have a tone. And.

[Nick]

Well, I mean, certainly. Yeah. Yeah, you definitely are probably reading it in a defensive way. But, like, you I am.

[Leanne]

And I mean, so.

[Nick]

But if.

[Leanne]

Are you.

[Nick]

If you're being accused of something, how would you not?

[Leanne]

Like, well, that time he wasn't accusing me. He was just like, why aren't you answering your phone? Like, what's going on? Like, he had called me, like, five times before.

[Nick]

That's an accusation. So it's not. I don't remember the last time I've called Nally five times in a row and then text her. Why isn't she answering her phone? I mean, yeah, and she's pretty responsive, and I do have her location, but it's just like, if. I don't know, like, it's just. You're not sounding like you're off the grid here. Like, you. You know, you're not. Even if you were, like, again, outside of, like, raising kids together, because there's always, like. And I know you have kids and you have. But let's say God forbid, you were like, you know what? I'm on my phone too much. My iPhone gave me, like, you know, that notification on Sundays, and I was like, you spend 13 hours a day on the phone, and you're like, you know what? I'm going to leave my phone in the car. I'm going to go to the mall. I'm going to have some. Just like, I'm going to go touch grass. Like, that would be normal to do. And maybe. Yeah, it would give you, like, you might. You might want to, like, you know, tell everyone that needs to know, hey, I'm gonna put my phone away. But it's, you know, not a crime. And like, again, again, like, if you're being literally serious that, like, if it's past 15 minutes, the man loses his mind. I don't know how it's not.

[Leanne]

It's been 15 to 20 minutes. I mean, those are. I know. It's been 15 to 20 Minutes. Like, that's not an exaggeration at all.

[Nick]

And so when he calls you five times and was like, why aren't you calling me? That's an accusation.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah.

[Leanne]

And then whenever I try to call him back to actually talk to him, he won't answer me either. Okay, so he's only calling to get my attention. Like, he's calling so that I will see that he wants me to give him my attention.

[Nick]

What does your therapist say about that?

[Leanne]

I don't even know. I got to see her tomorrow, so it's been two weeks since I've seen her. Her biggest advice for me is if I want to love him, I have to accept Everything about him, that's her advice. But there are times she gets mad at him, like from some of the things that I tell her.

[Nick]

I mean, why, why is she getting. What do you mean, mad at him?

[Leanne]

I don't know mad. But she, like, thinks he's, you know, being ridiculous.

[Nick]

Has she attempted to give you any tools for trying to solve the problem, which is this disconnect?

[Leanne]

And I feel like, no. I feel like, no. I mean, I do feel like for him we've got to figure out how to communicate better.

[Nick]

Sure.

[Leanne]

I do feel like I can only do so much.

[Nick]

Yeah, for sure. And also, like, I hope that your therapist isn't just like playing judge. Like, does she just like, have an opinion, like, who was more right or wrong?

[Leanne]

I mean, I know she definitely knows he is in the wrong at times. I know she does.

[Nick]

Yeah, but great. I mean, like, again, like, a friend can have an opinion. You don't need a license for that. But like, does she. Is she trying to help guide you to a place where you too are less disconnected than you are on this topic?

[Leanne]

Specifically this topic? No.

[Nick]

Okay, well, it might be something you want to consider. Therapy is pretty expensive and it's very beneficial. But like, if you're, if you're just paying a couple hundred bucks an hour to like, have someone like, listen, you can have a friend do that. Obviously a therapist is supposed to listen, but at some point they should help you, you know, get unstuck. Just at least try, you know, it may not work. I don't, you know, it's like, yeah, it sounds like you are exhausted trying to figure out this topic and you seem at least open minded that like, maybe you're playing a role in this and maybe you're doing something imperfect that's causing this. And I, you know, it doesn't sound, it sounds like, again, I'm only hearing your version of the story, but you seem open minded, which to me suggests that like, probably you're not exaggerating from what you're describing. I would be frustrated if I were you. I don't see how it's sustainable. And there seems to be some elements of like, toxicity on his behavior because, like, no one wants to be accused of this type of behavior. And I don't know, like, and no one wants to feel anxious because they didn't get back to their partner. And like, like, like you're being watched

[Leanne]

for sure, you know, and it's just so frustrating. Like, I know you talk about like, age and, you know, it's just, you know, but it just feels like I've gotten so far in life

[Leanne / Lauren]

and, like,

[Leanne]

I just can't figure out how to get it right with somebody is what it just feels like.

[Nick]

Well, I mean, I hear you. I understand it can be discouraging, but you're only 41. You. I don't know if you want more kids, but, like, no, I'm done with kids. So you're done with kids. It's. You know, you're not. You don't have some of those stresses that other people your age still have to wonder because, like, if you, you know, it's. You know, before I met Natalie, you know, and I didn't have to worry about, like, my biological clock. But you, you know, you don't. You don't. You, like yourself, had struggles in relationships, and there would be moments of thinking you figured it out only to be proven wrong. And then as you get older, it gets discouraging, and you, like, you know, very much can have. Related to this feeling you have of, like, man, I just can't get this shit fucking right. And then couple that with the fact that, like, I really want to be a dad someday. This is all to say, I understand that this is frustrating, and I get it, but you have the rest of your life to find your person, and in the meantime, you do have your children, and you do have, you know, I'm guessing, other people in your life. And it's not worth it, in my opinion, to be in a relationship that makes you more unhappy than happy because, well, I understand you want someone now in your life, but, like, there's no you. You. You have the rest of your life. You know what I'm saying? There's no, you know, like, obviously when you're in your 20s and 30s. And again, if you. If being a parent is something that you want, there's, like, you want to. I want to get. You know, you've been married. You know what that's like. You know, I mean, there's, like, you've done it all in the best possible way, so all you have left to do is find something that really makes you happy. And while I know it's. It'd be nice to find it now and have it with him, and maybe you guys can work towards that, but, like, there's no cost to you other than your patience to say, this isn't right for me, and then spend the next four years, you know, and then if you found someone at 48, you know, that really just. You just feel at peace with and, you know, you're happy, then like it didn't cost you anything other than a little bit of time. And there are other people out there who don't have, they don't have the freedom to be as, you know, as chill about that. You, you could be a little bit more, you know, maybe chill is the wrong word, but I get how you feel. But again, there's no cost to your, you know, other people could. Are. It would, it would be disingenuous for me to tell other people in your, at your stage in life to be more chill or to, to, you know, that, that you can be patient because, you know, that would be much easier for me to say than for them to actually practice. But in your case, there's no cost to prioritizing your happiness.

[Leanne]

Right.

[Nick]

Other than like, you know, maybe a couple lonely Sundays. But again, you do have your kids and friends and, and yeah, and you can date some other men and you know, have some. You really can date for yourself.

[Leanne]

You know, I feel like this time I did really good with dating. Like younger, younger me, like, was like, oh, he likes me. Oh, okay. Like, you know, I didn't get out there and like search for what I wanted, what I needed. Like this time, like I read some books before I started. Like, I feel like I was the nerd of dating. Like, I read some books and like how to like figure out, you know, like what I needed from a partner.

[Nick]

And listen, there are no experts when it comes to dating, you know. And I say that as someone who's literally like, you know, gives my opinion on relationships all the time. There's no experts, you know, like they're, you can get good at like regulating your motions and you can get good at communicating or you can get better at it. But like people, you know, you're only half the equation of a relationship.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And I'm not saying you're doing everything perfect and he's doing anything wrong, but like it's, it's really hard to move like an expert in a relationship because there's so many variables in relationships. So you, you kind of have to give yourself some grace here. And the good news is you have sound. Sounds like you just have more self awareness than maybe you did when you're younger. And maybe younger you would have never even questioned his behavior and you would have blamed yourself and you would have been like, what can I do? And you would have just lived in fear about him leaving you. And right now you are certainly living in fear about getting him angry, but you are at least open to the possibility that he's maybe not your person. And that is empowering at least than maybe the younger. You know, maybe younger you would have. Wouldn't have felt as empowered, at least that you had an option to say, maybe there's better for me out there where, you know, so that's progress. But, like, no, you're never gonna. You're never gonna be an expert. It doesn't matter how many books you read.

[Leanne]

And that's true.

[Nick]

And even professionals, like police officers who are like, it's their job to read people and to know when people are lying and to understand body language, like, get it wrong all the time.

[Leanne]

I feel like I have two fears in this relationship is, One is, am I gonna make him angry? Two is, do I need to leave? Like, those are my two, like. Like, because leaving him is a fear. I don't want to. Yeah, 100 don't want to. But I also don't want to just stay with someone.

[Nick]

Have you communicated this to him? These. How you feel about these two choices? You feel like you have maybe not

[Leanne]

that much of a direct. Yeah. And it has been a while since he's gotten upset with me, like, two or three weeks. So, I mean, it's really not that long of a thousand.

[Nick]

But, yeah, I mean, I think if you're like this and you're communicating like this, if he can empathize with that, he could probably use some therapy. Your relationship sounds like you'd use some couples therapy. He has to. At a minimum, he has to be like, listen, I don't like that I do this, and you don't deserve me reacting this way. And if he can't give you that, I don't know where you go from there. It sounds like he might be doing a little bit of that, which is at least step in the right direction. But he also can't keep. He can't just not change. You know, he can't only apologize when he's not triggered. And then when he's triggered, like, you can't be a Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde.

[Leanne]

Right. Well, and then one day when we were fighting and then we were, you know, apologizing and reconnecting one day, he did agree, okay, I will take some time for therapy. Well, I mean, it didn't take but a week later, and he's like, oh, I don't have time for that.

[Nick]

Well, listen, you need to. You need to. I think you need to have that conversation, which is like, listen, this is where I stand right now. I. I am constantly in fear of making you mad. And I'm not doing anything wrong. And I could, I guess, try to, like, you know, get a holster for my phone, which seems unreasonable. I don't want to do that. Or like, I'm. I'm. I'm afraid of, like, I'm wondering if maybe, while I don't want to, because I love you and I really want to be with you, like, what can we do about it? And if you're not going to take me seriously, then, you know, I guess I'm going to be forced to make a choice, and I don't want to make that choice. But, like, you have to be able to give them some kind of ultimatum.

[Leanne]

That makes sense.

[Nick]

And listen, if it doesn't go the way you want, I know you're afraid to break up with them, but you will survive it. You know you will.

[Leanne]

I do know that. I do. It won't be fun, but, you know.

[Nick]

But this isn't fun.

[Leanne]

No, it's not.

[Nick]

Well, I'm sorry you're going through this, but there is a path forward and, you know, maybe some tough choices, but the most obvious part of this equation is how you feel now and how lately this relationship has made you feel consistently, and no one signed up for you to feel like this in the relationship. And while every relationship has its ups and downs, there needs to be some kind of path forward.

[Leanne]

Well, I think I will try to communicate. No, I'll do better than try. I'll communicate how, but it affects me.

[Nick]

And when you go to therapy, you should ask yourself if you feel better or more empowered or at least you have some direction after you leave therapy. If all you did was complain to your therapist and then got their opinion on your point of view, I don't know how productive that is. But there are a lot of other therapists out there. Maybe you just need to find a different one.

[Leanne]

Maybe. I mean, she's like, my third one, and I do feel like each one, like, gives me.

[Nick]

How are they?

[Leanne]

Well, this one, I had high expectations. I'm a terrible judge of age. I know. She's older than me.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Leanne]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I mean, like, yeah, there's. I think it's. It is. It's. I think it's important to have someone with some lived experience.

[Leanne]

It is. But I don't know. I do wonder if I've gotten everything out of her that I am going to get. Maybe.

[Nick]

Well, I mean, I haven't found therapists to be. You know, I've had my therapist for I don't know how many Years now. And because, like, when I do talk to her, I find, like, it's always fairly productive, you know, it's not. It's not always, like, revolutionary. But she helps me get unstuck, you know, and so it's not like she's only, like. It's not like, oh, you know, she's only good for eight visits. And then she just keeps saying the same thing over and over. The situations I bring to the table are different. And she. Often the advice is the same from her, but like it. So you just have to ask yourself if this therapist is, again, pointing you in the right direction. Like, her opinion doesn't really matter. In fact, I think most therapists are reluctant. I mean, I'm lucky enough to have a therapist that does give me her opinion, which is, I find. But her opinion isn't really relevant to the. It's her helping me not to get unstuck, you know, to not keep ruminating. To either. To either. To either deal with something and then help me with the steps of how I deal with it or to let something go. So, and same thing, you need to either let it go and by let it go, like, move on from this relationship, or you need to figure out the tools to deal with this. But you, you know, it does require him to participate. And, you know, it's either one of those two things. And when you go to therapy to talk about this, you should leave therapy feeling like you've got at least pointed in one of those two directions and gotten some helpful guidance. That feels like you are part of that decision, you know?

[Leanne]

Right.

[Nick]

I don't think it should be like, well, my therapist said we should break up, you know, or my therapist thinks, honestly, he's the sweetest guy in the. It's like, who gives a shit?

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah.

[Leanne]

I mean, she's never done that. I mean, but I don't know. I didn't know last time. Like, I was talking to her, and I was like, he was so mean to me. And, like, I was just telling her some of the stuff. And, like, you could really tell. Like, she was like, oh, my gosh, can't believe you did that. And then she read the text and then she was like, oh, well, these aren't even mean.

[Nick]

I mean, yeah, she's allowed to give her.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah.

[Leanne]

But then she was just. I don't know, like, they're still at the end. There was still. That session. There was still, like, nothing. Yeah.

[Nick]

I mean, again, the meanness isn't really the. I mean, it would be extra problematic if he was mean about it, but it's the accusations that are the problem, so.

[Leanne]

Yeah.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Well, what do I know? I'm not a therapist. All right, well, was this helpful? Do you feel like it is helpful?

[Leanne]

It's just hard.

[Nick]

I get it. I hear you. The only way what, you know, you gotta. You gotta get through it. You gotta make some choices, because right now you've just consistently are feeling bad. And talking about this over and over isn't gonna change how you feel.

[Leanne]

Right. And I. This is something else that I probably do that's not helpful. A lot of the times I try to hide the hurt that I feel from him sometimes. Sure.

[Nick]

Yeah. That's normal. Yeah. But that's not like it.

[Leanne]

That's not like he doesn't know I'm hurt. That's not helpful, though.

[Nick]

Well, it sounds like you communicated enough that he understands.

[Leanne]

Okay.

[Nick]

And again, I. I do think, like, a. A next step would be to just lay it out there and let him know how you're feeling. You know, you tell him what you've told me, which is I'm genuinely scared. I'm scared because I feel like I'm honestly, like, always on edge, trying to make you mad. And I don't like the how that makes me feel on a consistent basis. And then I'm scared about the possibility of wondering if maybe we're not right for each other, because I don't want to keep feeling this way. But that makes me scared, too, because I don't want to lose you. But I can't keep doing this. And I need to figure this out, and we need to figure this out. And if you care, like, if you want to figure this out with me, I would love to figure this out with you. But if it's not a priority and what you say doesn't really matter, what you do matters a lot more. And if you're willing to do something about it, then let's figure this out. And if not, then I guess I just have a tough choice to make.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Right.

[Leanne]

I can do that. I can have that conversation with him.

[Nick]

All right. All right. Well, try to feel better.

[Leanne]

Thank you. I appreciate it.

[Nick]

You're gonna be okay. You got, you know, not ideal, but all your problems are. Are very fixable. And you. You are. You are in control, by which, I hope, makes you feel better.

[Leanne]

Knowing that I don't know if it does or not knowing that I'm in control, I'm really afraid of making the wrong decision.

[Nick]

I don't think you're going to make the Wrong decision. I really don't. I think it's almost, you know, if

[Leanne]

I just lay it all out there, I mean.

[Nick]

Well, you seem obviously like in love with him and dedicated. You want this to work.

[Leanne]

Yes.

[Nick]

Though my instinct tells me you will probably go. We'll go above and beyond any reasonable amount of effort to make this work. And if you are forced to leave, it'll, it'll. It. You'll be well past having any regrets. You're. You're not going to, you're not going to make the wrong decision. I would encourage you to not take as long as you're probably going to take to make it. But no, that's not that big of a deal. We've all, we've all taken too long. But I'm pretty confident you're not going to make the wrong decision. The only way that you'd make the wrong decision is if like five years from now you call me up and you're like, yeah, same guy, same feeling, same cycle I've been feeling then, you know. All right.

[Leanne]

Yeah, thank you.

[Nick]

All right, well, take care of yourself.

[Leanne]

All right. You too.

[Nick]

And give us an update if there is one.

[Leanne]

Okay. All right. All right.

[Nick]

All right.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Thank you.

[Leanne]

All right, Bye bye.

[Nick]

What's up everybody? Don't forget that all Vile Files plus content is ad free plus for all you ask Nick listeners out there, your update specials are ready and waiting for you. I know you are very interested on the follow up calls. What has happened to these people after they heard my advice? Did it help them? Did it hurt them? Has our life changed? Well, you can find out on update plus and you can get update plus behind vile files plus. So go to vilefiles.com to sign up. You will be glad that you did. How's it going?

[Alex]

Good.

[Leanne / Lauren]

How are you?

[Nick]

I'm good. What's your name?

[Alex]

I'm Alex. I'm 33. My question is when does giving a co worker the benefit of the doubt become ignoring my own discomfort?

[Nick]

All right, well, explain to me the situation.

[Alex]

So I guess I, I feel like I know the answer in the sense of like what an HR training video or module is going to say. But the real world is, isn't as black and white and basically. So I work in an office where my team and department are in another state. I work very by myself. Like I. This one coworker is I go down like an empty hallway of like 10 vacant offices and his is the only other occupied office. So it's kind of an odd dynamic in the sense of I Don't know, it just makes it more uncomfortable. But basically, for the last year and a half, we worked together and it's been very. Just pleasantries of like, good morning, have a good night. When I pass his office. And then it seems like overnight the dynamic kind of changed. He came into my office one day and was like asking me to lunch. And what I do, we do lunches with vendors quite frequently. And he's not a vendor, obviously, he's like a colleague. But then he's like, has a side hustle that maybe is a vendor thing. So he kind of pitch it that way. And then I think I looked like a deer in headlights when he asked me. And so I ended up saying yes. And I canceled. Well, I rescheduled. Then I canceled.

[Nick]

Anyways, when you say he has a side hustle, like, even if he did, couldn't he just. If he had to pitch you? I mean, because, I mean, like you said, you take people, you take clients to lunch. Right. Like, and it's all a part of the. Whatever you do. Yeah, the whole sales process or smoothing or just relationship building. Like, isn't it weird that he's pushing this?

[Alex]

Yes.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Alex]

So it's immediately like, weird. Like he's kind of. So I guess I work in like a financial institution type thing. And so what he does, I would say he more wines and dines clients. And what I do is I more kind of get wined and dined by clients. And so it was, yeah, I, I felt immediately uncomfortable because also in my, in this job, like, I just don't really go to lunch with people. It's much more because my team's in another state. Like, my last job was more of like the open air workspace. Like you chit chat with your co workers. Like, we would go drinks after. This is not that, like, I'm not friends with people I work with. I kind of wanted it that way. Like, I'm pleasant with them and then I go on with my day. So on top of this, I don't know if I'm overreacting because I met my current boyfriend at my last job and now we live together. We've been together for about two and a half years, but I get home that day and I go to him, I'm like, I don't know if I just agreed to go on a date with somebody. Like, I. And he's like, you're overreacting. Like, it's a vendor lunch. Look at it that way. Okay, so I first cancel and reschedule and then I just canceled it. Then it was like, okay, that was fine. And then about two, three weeks went by and this was about a month ago. So that kind of adds to my question too. But I don't know. I have my messages up over here. So I don't want to get it wrong on what he said. And I don't know if it seems like he had like a body snatch takeover because all of a sudden I'm getting these teams messages right before I'm going out of town for a week. And he's asking me again about lunch, but framing it as a group lunch.

[Nick]

Wait, who else is coming to lunch?

[Alex]

So you walk into, like the main doors of my office or building, and then you turn to the left and there's like offices, and that's where, like, you go open a new door and there's like the 10 empty offices or you can go straight and you're in like a retail area and there's like five people that work in there. So it was the retail people plus me, who works more for corporate, plus him. So I'm still on the outskirts. Like I'm the outlier of this situation, but that the retail people do typically include us.

[Nick]

But he was organizing a group lunch

[Alex]

in this new asking. Yes. When he brought it up again, I said, I'm out of town that week. You know, don't wait on me.

[Nick]

And did it feel like a casual, like, hey, we're all doing this. You're welcome to join. Or did it feel like it was really important to him that you participated?

[Alex]

It felt important because. So he messaged me on team saying, I'm taking them out next week, wanted to see if you want to join us. If so, what days work for you? And then immediately he said, I know you're busy. You can call me at blank when you get the chance. I'm like, I don't need to call you for my schedule first. Like, I'm busy. That's going to take more time. So I just said, I'm out of town. You know, if you guys end up doing one, not next week, let me know. But otherwise, don't wait on me. And then he kind of went back and forth how he saw, like, talk to my boss when he. Or things. He talked to my boss when he was in town at our. Where our headquarters is. But then about a couple days later, he messaged me saying, when you get back, I'll hook you up with some food since you won't be here for, you know, this appreciation lunch. And I said, oh, like, thanks. When did you guys decide for the week? And I'm being pleasant because at this point, like, I still. He's, like, a little awkward. He's. I'm so. I'm 33. He's almost 50. I googled him. After all of this, to me, get some more information, which I know. I mean, age gap, not a big deal, but still, like, he's just socially awkward.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Are you.

[Nick]

Are you aware of his relationship status?

[Alex]

No. I know that he has, I think, like, two kids that are a little, like, maybe like, 14 or 10 or. I don't know, something like that. But I. I honestly have not even looked, like, at his ring finger, but I'm pretty confident he's single. But sitting here, he. No, he is. I just. I couldn't say for certain. But he's never mentioned anything. But. So then it gets weird. So I said, where'd you guys decide to go for this week? And then he said, if nothing else, I'm persistent. I figure you can't shoot me down three times. Then he says, I know you're busy, but call me when you get the chance. Today at Blank, I just want to talk to you for a second. Then I don't respond on teams, and then he calls me through teams because he doesn't have my cell phone number. And then I don't answer. Then he messages me again and goes back to the vendor thing. You know, I'm trying to get on your vendor list I'm really good at. I don't even know what that is that he mentioned, you know? Then he kind of mentions, like, I'd offer to do this for free and, like, a referral and, like, willing to give a referral fee and blah, blah, which I'm pretty sure is a whole nother issue with HR with referral fees and, like, kickbacks. Then he continues to go on to, like, compliment me but also insult me by saying, like, I'm not one to talk because I don't even have my picture on here, but the one you have kind of makes you look way bigger than you are. I'm just telling you because I would want someone to tell me. It doesn't look bad. It's just distorted. And I said, good thing I'm not trying to impress anybody at work. And then he's like, well, I'm not impressing anyone with my looks, but I just could. I just feel like I could tell you wouldn't be offended. It was meant more of a compliment. But as you know, I have no one to talk to here, so please don't take offense. And then he messages me again. Two minutes, I promise. And I'll leave you alone. Sends his phone number, or I can call you if he'll answer. Do you want to keep reading?

[Nick]

Sure.

[Alex]

Well, so I send him kind of a long message, but it's like, sorry, hectic day. Like, please send an email too. And we have like, a distribution list for my department, you know, with the vendor information to hear that they can onboard it. Like, I don't really have time for this. Just kind of goes on throughout that day. And so the update kind of since then is I told myself at the end of that day, so I was going out town for the week, and I said, okay, like, if he messages me when I get back into town is maybe when all, like, escalated. Because at this point, like, I walk down this hallway, it's just me and this one man. It's just uncomfortable. Like, and to this, I mean, it's a month later and I still feel weird. But so I get back from out of town and I don't go into my office that Monday. I get a message at like 5:30pm on teams that just says workaholic. And then the next message is like, it's okay, me too. And the next message is like, hope you had fun, like, on your trip. Have a good night. And I didn't respond. And then since then, it's just kind of gone back to the pleasantries. And so now I'm also struggling with, like, did I overthink it? Did I not? Did I miss the boat? On if I should report it, if I shouldn't. But it's annoying because I'm sitting here obviously still stressed about it and overthinking it, and he might have just, like, gone on with. With his day.

[Nick]

So, I mean, all I can do is just give you my opinion. Like, with little information, it's not really advice. My opinion is. And my gut tells me it's like, you met, you work with kind of awkward guy. The conversation about your photo, honestly sounds like a guy who, like, meant to try to give you advice. And then, like, in the middle of giving you advice about the photo, realize how you might take it. You know, when someone's like, I don't take it. You know, it's just like. But he was trying to make conversation. Does he know you have a boyfriend?

[Alex]

Yeah, so I mentioned my boyfriend. I've definitely mentioned him just in the small talk we've had. But in this conversation, he goes on to, like, basically start telling Me that, like, I'm never gonna make money in the career I'm at. And he can help me, though. Like, it's not gonna make me wealthy. I'm spending too much time making money for other people. Then, you know, if I want to go into this market, he can help me. And I said, you know, that's actually my boyfriend's market. So I. I'm sorry, what?

[Nick]

Oh, okay. Yeah, that. Okay. That's how you.

[Alex]

Yes. And I said, oh, like, you know,

[Nick]

that's how you introduced your boy.

[Alex]

Yeah. Okay, again, because I know I've said it, but I did say in that conversation, like, that's actually my boyfriend's market, so I got it covered if I ever need some advice.

[Nick]

And what do you say?

[Alex]

He didn't say anything about, like, the boyfriend thing. He just still went on to say, I can introduce you to so and so. And then, like, you can tell me to shut up at any time, too. I know I'm a freak, but sometimes it seems like you're spending too much time making other people money or maybe dealing with things that are below your pay grade. And I just said, I appreciate the advice, but I promise I'm doing just fine.

[Nick]

Again, back to, like, my opinion. This is an advice. My gut tells me he's just lonely at work and you're just there.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And he's just, you know, trying to, like, I don't know, she's fucking here. So I guess, like, you know, and then he mansplains a little bit and oversteps. I'm. You know. But it'd be a really weird way to, like. I mean, usually guys are a little bit more obvious about if they're, like, making moves. And you've made it clear you as a boyfriend. And that didn't stop him from, you know, like, that didn't really change how he communicated with you.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Which tells me that that's. It's not because he's trying to date you and. And get in bed with you. It's just, oh, cool, she's got a boyfriend. Great. Anyways, I still have advice for you. You know, it's like.

[Alex]

Yeah, no, that's. It's funny because this is kind of the opposite take than I thought you'd have, but it's a good take because, like I said, I've been overthinking it so much that, again, I don't.

[Nick]

I don't. I. This isn't advice, because I could totally be wrong. I'm not there, and I'm not. I'm not trying to. To tell you not to worry about something that, you know, an outsider's point of view. But. So it is just an opinion. I think it's good to note that your boyfriend isn't worried.

[Alex]

Yeah, I mean, I, like, read him this whole. I was home when this was going on. I was reading him the whole conversation. I'm sitting here freaking out, and he was kind of like, if you're worried, go to hr. Otherwise, I don't know. I was almost getting annoyed with him. So I'm like, you don't get it. Like, this is uncomfortable. And I have talked with friends since, and a lot of my friends, it became this, like, go to HR conversation. But I think it, like, this is somebody's career. You know, it's. It's an awkward, awkward environment.

[Nick]

If, I mean, you have the right to not feel awkward at work, and you have the right to not feel weird. So, you know, there's that, but. And again, I'm no HR expert, but it's like, I feel like we're both kind of assuming the same thing, which is like, once you. You know what, you can't unpush that button. And it sounds like you don't want, like, you. You would like this to stop. You don't want this to affect his life and, you know, type of thing, and.

[Alex]

Yeah, but I guess I don't want it to affect mine either. Okay, that could go both ways.

[Nick]

How is it? Well, let's see what part of that you can control. You obviously could, like, confront him, which is not like, a good option, because then you're like, that's more like. I guess if you're gonna do that, you could go to hr. You could do more of the same, which is to. You could pull back from the pleasantries or the sense of obligation. You feel like you have to respond to him as much as you do, and you could see if he just gets the hint, you know? I don't know. She doesn't really. She's not that interested. Like, he may think that, like, I don't know, I'll just win her over, you know? You know, I'm weird, but I'm charming, you know, and she just hasn't get it yet. And I don't know, like, he could easily be not trying to court you or sleep with you or date you. You know, he could just be a guy who's just like, I don't know, I work with a person. She's a human being, happens to be a woman. But, like, I just making fucking Conversation and, and you aren't into it and which is totally fine. But like what you're. It doesn't sound like he's being nefarious.

[Alex]

Yeah, I guess I don't have like a relationship even honestly friendly with anyone at this office like I do with my team, but it's just on like it's teams calls because they're in another state. And so I guess if it was like I was chit chatting with a bunch of people all the time or it kind of felt like we were all hanging out and then this one person was talking to me, I wouldn't like, if it was my last company, I wouldn't really attribute it to anything. And maybe I've just become weird like because I don't have work in an office like that anymore. Then when someone approaches me I'm like, like, oh, weird. Like someone's talking to me because I'm not used to it anymore.

[Nick]

Yeah, I mean if I'm understanding you, it sounds like the fact that you guys work in the same office is kind of like not necessarily a coincidence but has really nothing to do with your job. And there's no actual reason for him to talk to you.

[Leanne]

Correct.

[Nick]

Other than like, you know, human decency and like the way the world used to be, which is like, I don't know, you just kind of talk to people and you know, back when I used to work for a company, I went to an office and you know, it was a pretty big company and I think I made friends. Like I made acquaintances with like the inventory lady, you know, like a 20 some year old guy. I don't, I think she was like, I don't know. But it is, it is like, I know it's kind of to your point. You know, it's just like we've kind of got more socially awkward and we've lost a bit of humanity when with this whole like work from home and not talking to people and yeah, I

[Alex]

guess it's like, and this was kind of like what I was questioning in my head was like. And it maybe goes back to the original question, like at what point do I stop justifying his socially awkwardness? I'll keep feeling uncomfortable because, oh, he's just socially awkward. And then also, you know, at what point, like, yeah, I didn't flat out, I expected him to maybe read, not even read between the lines, like short answers kind of.

[Nick]

Do you, let me ask you this, do you feel unsafe?

[Alex]

No, I, I feel more uncomfortable. I feel uncomfortable. Like I won't at my Office. Like the retail people, like I was saying, they leave right at 5pm they're out the door. So where I used to. Maybe if I was gonna stay late that day, like, I make it a point, like, I don't want to be, like, there when it's just me and him. But no, I don't want. I don't feel unsafe, but I don't know. Is that kind of the famous last words?

[Nick]

No. No. Again, I'm not. I'm not an HR person. And I, you know, and I don't think you. I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to feel uncomfortable either. Right. It sounds like the struggle you're having, right, is you recognize, you don't feel unsafe, you do feel uncomfortable, but you don't know if that discomfort is more of a you thing. Like, are you just a cat and he's being a dog? You know, and you're just like. And you're just like, you would rather not. And then you're weighing that against, you know, you'd rather it stop. Versus, like, how much am I gonna fuck up this guy's life just because I'm a cat and he's a dog.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And the moral weight of your decision and you're juggling all that. And so I'm not here to tell you how to feel or what's right or wrong, but it sounds to me that's what you're trying to process. And. And again, what I'm hearing from your story, and it seems to be in line with what your boyfriend kind of thinks, is that it sounds like it's just more of a. You're a cat and he's a dog, and it's just not your ideal dynamic. What if you just tried to. Not, again, with the assumption that you are, but really confident that you are safe.

[Alex]

Yes.

[Nick]

That's number one. And knowing that, what if you try not to overanalyze this, Read into it, ruminate over it, be like, ignore him, not respond, not feel any kind of pressure or guilt, and then see if he just takes the hint. But it sounds like. And maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds like you've. Again, not your fault, but, like, sounds like you've done. You. You respond just enough out of, like, I don't know, politeness or whatever that it just. It's. He's. He kind of, you know, it's. It's. I don't know again, like, he's bored at work. And. And it's become this whole thing of, like, I don't know this.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah.

[Alex]

And I think it's. I also just need to get annoyed because I'm like, you're constantly telling me like I know you're busy. And I'm like, then leave me the fuck alone. Like don't keep telling me you know I'm busy while you simultaneously are messaging me non stop. And I did not to your point. Those messages that when I got back from my trip, I didn't respond to. And then I haven't gone a team's message since. It is just those office pleasantries which I have gone into my office a lot less, which I'm not a remote worker. So I like, like I should be at my office probably now and I'm not. So it's. That's not a solution either. I could go to a different office if I wanted to. We have different like retail areas I can work out of. But I also don't think it's fair that I like uproot my like work life.

[Nick]

I don't think the solution is to not go to the workplace that you should or need to go to. I mean, I used to like thinking about the same job that I would talk about. Like there are people, there's this guy on my team. He just annoyed the fuck out of me because I just found him to be obnoxious. And he was a guy who later in life got really into running. And I guess when he was younger he struggled with health and weight and things like that. He got healthy. Good for him. But he was like so fucking hardcore. He would like, you know, box his lunches and it would like smell in meetings. And he also referred to himself as an athlete and he just took himself very seriously. And honestly, I don't want to say it made me uncomfortable, but it affected me. Like he viscerally bothered me because he was so fucking obnoxious. And I just, you know.

[Leanne]

Mm.

[Nick]

I'm just curious, like when you hear me kind of jokingly tell that story, is it more like he just bothers you because you're, you're just different people and he can't take a hint. And this guy just couldn't like take a hint that like, you know, you're not actually an athlete, but I'm glad that you run, you know, like it's great. And you know, and he was, you know, like, and people, you know, like for, for me to think someone's condescending, it took, it takes a lot. But you know what I'm saying? Like, what do you think it's more

[Alex]

that's a good point. I think it's a good maybe mix because one of the things that he was pushing was. So he's basically some type of, like, advisor and was kind of like, oh, like, I want to be your advisor too. Like, so also simultaneously, while trying to get me to use them as a vendor, he was also trying to get me to use him from that aspect. And he's telling me, like, oh, like, I already have all the other people, like, in the retail area. And I'm just like, no. Like, I've been with the same advisor my whole life. I'm. No.

[Nick]

It sounds like you work with someone who's obnoxious to you.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alex]

Maybe that's the answer.

[Nick]

And I, you know, I don't know.

[Alex]

No, I definitely think he's obnoxious, actually. There's no doubt about that. It's just a matter of what his intentions are. But I guess also I don't care what his intentions are because it doesn't matter to me in the sense of, like, I don't want to be his friend. I don't want to date him. I don't want anything with our dynamic to change. I just don't like that. Well, I think I stressed, yeah, maybe it's me thing.

[Nick]

Well, I think his intentions matter when it comes to the question of, like, do you want to go to hr? Which is like, if all this is about somehow some weird attempt at getting you on a date or just to flirt with you so he feels like he can flirt with a lady, then that. That's fucking weird. And maybe, maybe you need to reach out to hr. But if it's anything else, and if he's just obnoxious and he's just kind of like, you know, just obnoxious about, like, you know, trying to. And he's bored, then, I don't know, do you want to go to HR for someone who's just kind of obnoxious?

[Alex]

No. I mean, it's exactly what you said with, like, once you push the button, you can't unpush it. Like, I've managed enough people to know also, like, you know, the moment I say something to somebody else, like, you're kind of required to report it, like, if it was my manager or something. And so I guess at this point, like, I wouldn't say anything, but at what point do you think I kind of am more justified to. I know it's hard because, well, we don't know his intention. So I guess at what point am I. Is it maybe Like, I think we

[Nick]

don't know, but I feel like you have a pretty.

[Alex]

At what point should he know better if I'm. If he's still reaching out or still doing this, like, small talk.

[Nick]

I mean, some people are obnoxious their whole life and never know better. And it's also a bit subjective. I mean, it sounds like this guy is probably fairly obnoxious to most people. But again, you are kind of describing yourself cat, like from one cat to another.

[Leanne]

Yeah.

[Alex]

I have become like, that's actually really. Now that I'm thinking about it, I feel like I used to be more of a dog and now I'm kind of a cat.

[Leanne]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And I just. It sounds like it would really bother you if you found out that he had no ill intent and he was just kind of a lonely, obnoxious guy who, I don't know, just wanted to feel like, you know, whatever advisor course he took, you know, he got some use out of or, you know, whatever.

[Alex]

Yeah, I guess I. Yeah. And I guess it goes back to, like, I just. I hate that. And maybe it's just something that I. This is part of human behavior and dynamics and work, you know, anything is. I hate that. I feel like I'm left with this, like, burden to carry. And maybe that sounds so dramatic to say it that way, but his awkwardness has now kind of become my burden. Even though I used to be much more social at my last office and I kind of made it a point, I guess, be more cat, like, and just to myself, come and go. And now I'm like, how am I in this position?

[Nick]

The big question is, is how much of this is a thing that you've chosen to ruminate over. And it's honestly, like, annoying to you, but weirdly has become something that you,

[Alex]

you know, probably most of it, especially

[Nick]

at this point, enjoy talking about and analyzing and you know, and.

[Leanne]

And.

[Nick]

And here we are talking about it and is it just like kind of that type of drama that we say annoys us, but we, if we're being honest, like, we talk about it all the time and, and how much when you're talking about it, are you genuinely, genuinely confused and stressed out where you just like, you don't know what to do versus you're just kind of tired? At least you say you're tired of talking about it or you're just tired of being annoyed by this guy and how much of it is you choosing to, like, just not let it, you know, like, kind of get over it? Just like, not. Not you Know what if you just told yourself you work with Michael Scott, and when you, like, I don't have. You watch the office, you know.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, I feel like you. When you start the office, right, Michael is like, truly obnoxious and maybe, you know, maybe should be fired because he's. And then. And then it ends with like, oh, Michael Scott is just a really beautiful man who just has some blind spots. But boy, God forbid I. I would have called. You know, like, I got. Well, God forbid I would have got Michael Scott in trouble.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, type of thing. And.

[Alex]

And yeah.

[Nick]

Do you. You know, it's you. I wonder if maybe just try telling yourself again. Long as you. As long as you're confident, you feel safe, try, you know, gaslighting yourself. I'm kidding when I say that. But like, telling yourself, like, listen, he's this obnoxious, and I. I really don't care. And it doesn't really bother me. I mean, certainly, you know, but I just. I'm not. I'm not. I don't have to worry. I don't really care what he thinks or feels about me, and I'm just not going to worry about it. And don't. Don't talk about with your girlfriends anymore, almost like an ex that you're trying to get over and see if you just stop caring less. And then ask yourself, do you still want to call HR? Type of thing. Do you really feel uncomfortable?

[Alex]

Yeah. And I think you make a lot of really good points. And I. Like I said it. Actually this conversation went completely different than I would. Thought I would in a good way because, you know, I didn't really also want to walk away with you being like, that's terrible because then you're. I'm gonna. I obviously don't want to say anything, otherwise if I did, then I wouldn't be on this call right now. And I think the. The ruminating part is. I mean, it's the biggest thing. Like I said, I. Since I didn't respond to him a couple weeks ago, it seems like things have reverted back to the way they were. And now I'm just overthinking. Well, what if it happens again? And it could very well never happen again. And if it does, to your point, then I just need to.

[Nick]

It probably will.

[Leanne]

Okay.

[Nick]

Only because it's. He's. You're describing a guy who's not particularly great at reading the room.

[Alex]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nick]

And it sounds like he's. All it's going to require is a little distance. Impatient. You know, he's just like, you know, let's try again later. I don't know. Like, he's. I don't think. Clearly, he doesn't think that you're as offended by his existence as you actually are.

[Alex]

Yeah. And I can't remember exactly what you said earlier, but something about with him. With me bringing up that I had a boyfriend, him just being like, okay, great, then moving on. You make a good point with. Now I'm thinking, not overthinking too much, but I feel like if he was kind of like. He doesn't give off these, like, boy vibes obviously to where, oh, I had a boyfriend. He. It was like a. You know, just because there's a goalie situation, it seems like it was genuinely like, that's irrelevant to me because I'm not trying to get with you. So that's like.

[Nick]

That's how it sounds to me. I think if a guy was being a boy or just creepy, he would have a hard time ignoring that information.

[Leanne]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Or he would have found a way to bring it back up somehow.

[Alex]

No. And this was a completely. Like, he didn't acknowledge it one way or another, which I don't know if that means anything.

[Nick]

He didn't. He didn't even try to compare himself to your boyfriend. You know, like in a way that he could have competed with somehow. He was just like.

[Alex]

He just kept going without the people he knows there.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah.

[Nick]

It sounds like he's just fucking lonely at work. And it's just like more like, I don't know, she's here and. And I don't know.

[Alex]

I feel like now I'm just mean.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Shoot.

[Alex]

Maybe I need to be more afraid.

[Nick]

I don't think you're mean. I. I do think society. We have all turned into cats in a way. We have all. Again, we're obsessed with our boundaries and our personal space and our lived experience and our comforts and our feelings. And it's like all. All. Some. All valid to a certain degree. But there is the whole human experience of just like, you know, I don't know, like the world doesn't revolve around us and.

[Alex]

And.

[Nick]

And, yeah. I don't know. Like there. It sounds like there's a bit of a balance here, but I agree.

[Alex]

I agree. And I do think I am that me kind of being more kind of like Cat. Like, I've never even thought about that way, but it's a very good way to say it. And then also just knowing that I met my last. My current boyfriend at my office, my Last job, I'm overthinking it. And then I'm getting, like, more upset at this man at my current job, which, like, it's not his fault that I'm, like, ruminating and overthinking things.

[Nick]

Yeah. So I think trust your gut here, as weird as that sounds to say, because you acknowledge you're ruminating. But I think there's a difference between trusting your gut and ruminating about your, you know, like, trust your gut is kind of like, oh, do I feel safe? Yeah. Am I okay? I'm annoyed and, like, whatever, you know, and right now you're just like, I feel this thing. I feel a certain way about this guy, which is like, I would rather him not. And then you've. You have. You have analyzed the situation with probably. I mean, I can only imagine the number of people have heard this conversation before you got to me. And I think that should tell you something, which is like. Because it sounds like your gut has told you an answer, and maybe you didn't even like that answer, so it was like you wanted to keep. It sounds. Your gut is. You kind of said your gut is. You don't really want to call hr, and you don't. He doesn't make you feel unsafe, and he's just kind of like a weird, obnoxious guy who can't read the room.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah.

[Alex]

I think I get so in my head with the fact that, like, okay, the fact that I have to, like, walk by this person's office and I'm trying to, like, be on my phone or do something to, like, ignore him is kind of a me thing when I need to maybe just look at him. As to your point, like an annoying person in the office versus a creepy person in the office.

[Nick]

Stop. Stop having to be on your phone. And if he's like, hey, what's going on? You can be like, hi. And if he's like, hey, can I grab you, like, oh, sorry, I'm just. I'm running to a call.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

Maybe like, lean in more to that. The cat person, where you're just like, when I really don't care what people think, boy, that's freedom. And I could really just be really aloof. And that's going to result in some people, like, what a fucking jerk. But for him, let him think you're a jerk. I don't. You know, it's. You know what I'm saying?

[Alex]

And he has acknowledged, like, oh, I feel like I, like, you know, talk with everyone at the building except for you. Like, I know you the least. And I'm like, well, I don't really. Yeah, I responded and was like, I don't really talk with anyone at the building.

[Nick]

So, yeah, like, in my. In that situation, I would have given some real sarcastic. Yeah, well, yeah, I'm not really a people person, so, you know, it's a me thing. But, yeah, I'm glad your friends are there. You know what I'm saying? I just would have leaned in to that. That narrative.

[Alex]

And I did try to do that with the. When he was bringing up, like, oh, I have kind of. I'm the advisor for all these other people. And I said, well, I'm sorry, I can't help you get to 100%, but that's great that you have. Who you have.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Try to talk about this less.

[Alex]

It's so funny. I hear you say that to so many people. And when you're listening, you're like, that's so easy to just stop thinking about it. And then when you're sitting here hearing it, you're like, it's. I mean, it's so much easier said than done as it is.

[Nick]

Like, the fact that I can say, I can only imagine how many people you've talked to before you got to me, and you were just like, yeah, you know what I'm saying? And then when you think about it in that context, you're like, over what? You know, like someone. It's kind of fun to listen. It's a fascinating little debate. You know, it's nuanced. We're not really sure. You know, it's kind of fun.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And I think you've had some fun with it. And as much as you've been annoyed to try to figure it out, it went.

[Alex]

It did a little puzzle. Yeah. And it did go from, like, excitement. Not excitement. Because I want to say I never felt flattered in the conversation.

[Leanne / Lauren]

But.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah, it's drama.

[Alex]

Yeah. I went just from like, oh, my God, what do I do to them. Like, okay, I'm annoyed. Like, I'm dealing with this work stuff, and now I'm, like, managing. I'm, like, managing your feelings. I don't know how to respond. But also, I guess I shouldn't care about his feelings at all.

[Nick]

So you are human, you know?

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So.

[Alex]

Yeah. No, I think I. Like I said, I appreciate that your advice was totally different than I thought it would be in a very, very good way, because I think it's kind of what I needed to hear to stop ruminating about it and move on and you know, obviously, if I talk to. Which I have, like, my girlfriends about it, we're all coming also from a girl's perspective where. And it's all just so drilled into us, especially in the corporate world where you watch all of these tutorials and all these things where it's like. Like someone, girl or boy, said one thing to make you feel uncomfortable, you need to report it. And when I'm going through those, I'm sitting there, like, making fun of them, thinking, this is so bad. Our world's gone to this. Maybe that sounds bad, but just like, you know, just because your feelings are hurt doesn't mean you're justified to like or feel all the time. And now here I am being the person, like, I feel like I'm making fun of in the tutorial.

[Nick]

Those tutorials can't be vague. You know, they have to be anyways. But you made up a. We got to go. But you made it, like, a point that I think is kind of put on a light bulb is that, like, there's a part of you, like, you. We all want to be good people. You want to be considerate. And I think there's a part of you that's annoyed that you're burdened with how you come across to him and how you might be making him feel, whether you're being rude to him or not, and that's annoying to you, rightfully so. And you don't want to be burdened with, like, you know what I'm saying? It's just like. Which I imagine a lot of women feel that way, where it's just like, why am I being like, you know, like any type of. It's like, why you're. I'm a. Because I don't want to, like, talk to you or be. You know what I'm saying? Like, I think there's that kind of, you know, that. Which I'm sure from. From a women's standpoint. Yeah. You know, it's like, why. It's like, you know, guys aren't called necessarily rude or assholes just because they're not always fucking polite. And I think that's the part that probably annoys. It sounds like. Annoys you the most about, like, having to deal with him.

[Alex]

Yeah, it. It is.

[Leanne / Lauren]

I agree.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah. Completely correct.

[Nick]

And then, you know, I guess there. There will probably be a variety of opinions of people listening to this, whether that's a justified reason to go to hr, but, you know,

[Alex]

I just need to stop ruminating over it. If it. Then I guess I'LL give you guys an update if there is an update.

[Nick]

Yeah, I would love one.

[Alex]

Yeah. If I either keep hearing from him forever, then I do end up. But I think if I just stop ruminating over it, that's what I need to do and just, you know, he's lonely and let him do his thing and not let it affect me as much as I have.

[Nick]

Sounds like your gut tells you that he might not be your person, but he's probably a pretty decent guy who's just not for you.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And he hasn't gotten the hint.

[Alex]

Yeah. Not in a friendly coworker. Not like, not for me. In, like, any sense of the way. Like, relationship, friendship, even friendly co worker.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Alex]

Like, maybe all he wanted and, like.

[Nick]

Like my co worker where, like, his existence just annoyed me, you know?

[Alex]

Yeah. Okay. Well, I appreciate it. I'll let you know if anything.

[Nick]

All right.

[Alex]

There is any update by.

[Leanne]

All right.

[Alex]

Thank you.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Appreciate it.

[Nick]

All right, take care.

[Leanne]

All right.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Bye.

[Nick]

Bye.

[Alex]

Bye.

[Nick]

How's it going?

[Leanne / Lauren]

Hi, my name is Lauren. I'm 29. And my question is, is the problem in my relationship related to the relationship with my mom?

[Nick]

Okay, tell me about the problems you're having a relationship, and then tell me about the problems you've had with your mom.

[Leanne / Lauren]

So me and my partner, we've been really in love for most of our relationship. However, he seems to be emotionally unavailable a lot of the time. Like, when we try to have emotional conversations, he doesn't really know how to respond or things like that. And I don't know if it's something we should work through together or if it's something that, like, my mom says I should find somebody else. And I really think that it's, like, worth fighting for and working through. But my mom has kind of had a really scarred past with her relationships, and I think it's kind of bled into how she feels about my fiance.

[Nick]

How long you been with. This is your fiance?

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yes.

[Nick]

And how long have you been together?

[Leanne / Lauren]

We've been together five years, and we had our son four years ago.

[Nick]

You all had a kid together. Okay.

[Leanne / Lauren]

And then we had our daughter eight months ago.

[Nick]

So you have two kids together, you're engaged.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yes.

[Nick]

That's important context. And your mom wants you to leave them?

[Leanne / Lauren]

She wants certain behaviors. So, like, growing up, I was always, like, more of a sister than a daughter and would, at a very young age, help her. Like, she would, you know, have really rough breakups, and I would help her mend her heart through those and stuff like that. And my fiance doesn't really show any of those traits that previous partners have showed. But my mom is also just, like, really has a strong burning hatred for men.

[Nick]

Okay, your previous partners are. Her previous partners.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Her previous partners.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Leanne / Lauren]

And so I feel like that leads her to believe that, like, every man is horrible and not worthy of any woman.

[Nick]

Gotcha. Okay, well, I think it's good that you know that assuming it's true, it sounds like you. You have a pretty good sense of it. So let's focus on your relationship. Like, what. What is not happening that you would like to be changed.

[Leanne / Lauren]

So I just would like to be able to express myself to him and then have, like, some feedback. It seems like every time I'm, like, sitting with him through a tough conversation, I'm the only one talking.

[Nick]

Can you give me, like, an example?

[Leanne / Lauren]

Like, if I'm going through something emotional, like, I had a really tough postpartum with our son, and anytime that I tried to express those things to him and tried to go through, like, what I'm feeling, I felt like it was being received, but it wasn't being, like, treated with care or love. And I feel like it's just something he doesn't know how to do. I don't feel like it's something that he can't do. And I feel like my mom, when she comes into this, is, like, always trying to say, like, well, you don't want that in a partner.

[Nick]

Let's table mom for a second. Let's just focus on him. It sounds like he, at times, he's not as empathetic about your feelings as you would like him to be. Would that summarize maybe how you feel about your partner? Do you communicate that frustration to him at times outside of the moments? And what is his response to your frustrations?

[Leanne / Lauren]

He's always just kind of stoic and quiet. He always says. His famous response is, I don't know what to say every time. And, like, I don't know what to do. And I've always asked, like, are you willing to, like, go to therapy with me to, like, help us work through that together? But it never happens.

[Nick]

What does he say? Does he say no, or does he say sure, and then it never happens?

[Leanne / Lauren]

He says, yes, but, like, he blames things like logistics, like insurance and. And, like, money and things like that.

[Nick]

And when he's like, I don't know what to say. Like, are you being like, listen, I. I just, like, want you to. Does he at least acknowledge, you know, like, yeah, you know, I'm sorry, I could have or is. Sounds like he's not, like, necessarily pushing back or disagreeing or defending it. He's just more like,

[Leanne / Lauren]

yes. No, he. That's exactly it. That's exactly it. And he's a wonderful guy. So it's not about him.

[Alex]

You know what I mean?

[Leanne / Lauren]

It's just his way of responding.

[Nick]

So it sounds. He's not much of as words of affirmation, like a love language for you.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yes, 100%.

[Nick]

So it sounds like maybe you guys are just struggling with that. What. What's the nicest thing he's ever said?

[Leanne / Lauren]

That's the tough part is like, he's not good at that stuff. Like, he doesn't. That's what I. I had said. Like, even last night before bed, I was like, it's tough that, like, you don't even say, like, good night, I love you. And then in the morning, you're not like, good morning. You just, like, wake up and go about your day.

[Nick]

And he's just. And his response is. I don't know what to say.

[Leanne / Lauren]

He's just like, oh, honey, I do do those things. So sometimes ever. I do do that. Does he not usually know? Not usually.

[Nick]

But he is capable of doing it. He could just for the sake of peace more often, not remind himself, be like, you know, I'm just gonna say I love you. Love you.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yes. And I think that's the problem is I'm like, you can't just, like, make yourself say, at least I love. I love you too.

[Nick]

Okay. What is he good at that makes you feel loved?

[Leanne / Lauren]

He's a wonderful father. He's a wonderful, like, provider. He helps my family and his family with anything and everything. He's a person other than that.

[Nick]

So he's a big act of service guy.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Absolutely. Yeah. He'll do anything. He'll cook dinner. He's just a wonderful, wonderful person. It's just that one area that we can't seem to, like, navigate well together. And it took me into a really dark place with our firstborn because of it. Just because I just wasn't ever hearing, like, I would sleep on the couch with our firstborn so that he could sleep well, so he could go to work in the morning feeling rested. And, like, I knew I didn't.

[Alex]

Yeah, I know.

[Leanne / Lauren]

I know. I didn't have to do that. But, like, I would, and, like, I would. All I wanted from him was just to be like, thank you for, like, prioritizing my sleep so that I could, you know, be more rested for work.

[Nick]

So. Well, him being an Acts of service guy. I imagine you express from time to time some gratitude about that. Yeah or no?

[Leanne / Lauren]

Oh, absolutely. Daily, like, I want him to know I'm a Words of affirmation. So I give that to him.

[Nick]

Does it make him feel good?

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah, like, he. He'll, like, give me a kiss and, like, say, you know, you. You know, you're welcome and, like, give me a hug and stuff. But.

[Nick]

And, like, you know, listen, like, you know. You know, the other night, my Natalie was. Express some gratitude for how I've showed up recently. And. And, you know, and I'm not like, you know, you know, and like, there's a little bit of, like, it's kind of awkward almost, and like, I'm not a bit, you know, but I got it. That goes such a long way. Like, it does feel good. Like, it. I might not, like, cry and be like, oh, my God, thank you. I needed to hear that. And, you know, it's like. And there's almost a little like, you know, you don't even need to. But, like, it does feel great, you know, just to hear it. And he should be able to recognize that a little bit, you know, where it's just like, just, you know, do it for me, you know, I know it's hard for you. Just do it for me.

[Leanne]

I don't know.

[Nick]

Listen, it sounds like the good news is you. You're not questioning him as your partner and as your father. It sounds like he has some blind spots and with some love language. And, you know, good news, it sounds like you're not postpartum right now, so you don't have to, you know, it sucks that you were having to deal with that emotionally and that you had that disconnect with your partner at a time where, you know, your feelings were very unpredictable. But sounds like now it's still a thing and rightfully so. Like, maybe you can just. Again, I would just continually try to nudge him and just say, listen, I could just. Would it be easier just to give me the old attaboy once in a while in your way rather than me bug you about it? Just try to find a little common ground, make it light, little, not so heavy. And it sounds like maybe he could just give you a little bit more affirmation. And I do think you can continually to gently nudge him with couples therapy.

[Leanne / Lauren]

When I was early postpartum last time, like, the video games was a big thing too, and I think it kept him from, like, really being present to see, like, a lot of the things that I was doing. And now that's, like, gotten a lot better. But how do you think I should encourage him maybe to be like, maybe we could step away from the video games and connect a little bit more? Because I think that's part of our problem is we just don't connect enough. We, like, watch a show together at the end of the night.

[Nick]

I'll admit, postpartum, I've been able to play a lot of video games.

[Leanne / Lauren]

That's awesome. I encourage it. I love that for him. And, like, I do encourage it, but, well, the thing.

[Nick]

Yeah. And so I. No, I hear you. And now he definitely gets the ick for me. I really make it a point to make sure that, like, you know, I drop, you know, like, like, like when I get my chores done, I get to sneak in some video games. But I only bring it up because it's definitely like, a fucking stress release for me. And it's like it really just allows. And I think a lot of men play it for that reason, which is to only say, try not to associate the two. I think you have the right to ask to connect with him, but the moment you're like, can we play less video games so you can connect with me, then you're competing with the video games. And I feel like you could maybe try to not. You know what I'm saying? And it's just like, yeah, I know that's helpful, you know, and so I think you could just be like, I. I think keep bringing up that you want to listen. I just, like, sometimes I just be a little distant from you, and I'm. I mean, I'm being annoying or whatever, but can we just. Can we do something together and just talk about doing things together? Acknowledge that it's. It's. You're. You're something you would love him to do for you. It's a favorite, you know, I guess you obviously want him to be present and enjoy it, but I guess, you know what I'm saying. I wouldn't. I wouldn't.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah, don't lump them in the same basket. No, that makes complete sense.

[Nick]

If the video game problem is a real problem and he's just like, you know, not, you know, not being helpful and then have a problem with the video games, but if it's. Yeah, you. It just. It will land probably a little bit better. Okay, thank you is my guess. And as far as your mom goes, you know, the fact that you think that your mom just has a hatred towards men, I think it's important information for you to know and I just, quite frankly, I don't, you know, I don't think her opinion really matters when it comes to your relationship.

[Leanne / Lauren]

It's hard because she, like, plays. The reason I wanted to bring her up is because she plays like a third party in our relationship a lot. She wants to know a lot of,

[Nick]

huh, don't let her.

[Leanne / Lauren]

That's fair. I have had a really tough time forming boundaries with her. Like, everyone in my family is afraid of her, and I don't know why.

[Nick]

You're not. So that's good. I mean, listen, like, it's always great to have help and, And. And every, you know, a lot of parents are imperfect, and I'm glad you have a relationship with your mom, but what is important that you know, as someone that you feel like has had a very complicated and difficult relationship with men, to not let that, you know, and she's going to be prone to want to project that onto you, and that's how. That's not helpful. And if she is encouraged, you know, like, you, hey, your relationship has some flaws. Every relationship does. But sounds like overall you're like, I love my partner and I love what we've built together. And overall, it's pretty solid. And I definitely have some complaints. And I'd like, you know, but, like, you know, I don't know how full it is for your mom, who's had nothing but negative accounts for men to, you know, convince you to move on from him. Like, how is that going to make your life better?

[Leanne / Lauren]

Like, yeah, how do I help? Like, how do I help my partner through that? Because I think that that's hard for him. He, like, shows up to, like, do things for her all the time, and, like, he's tried to prove to her that he's, like, a really stable person in my life and in her life, too, and, like, helps her so much. But, like, then she, like, says these things and he's like, I mean, you're

[Nick]

giving them permission not to give a shit. And what I mean by that is it's like, listen, you say, as your partner, I appreciate what you do. You're a good man. Listen, my mom, she does explain. I'm sure you have, but I'm sure you've explained to him how your mom, she's just projecting. What you don't want your partner to do is to fight a winless battle. Your partner is not going to convince your mom that men are decent people.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah. And he's like, how do I continue to want to do things for her, though, whenever she's like saying you're doing it.

[Nick]

Well, he doesn't have a. If. If he doesn't feel appreciated, doesn't have to. And if he's only doing it for her approval, then maybe he can stop doing it. If he's doing it to be a good partner to you, because at the end of the day, your mom's peace makes your life easier, then he's doing it for you, you know?

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah, no, that's valid.

[Leanne]

And.

[Nick]

And just make it clear. It's like, I really, like. Listen, I. I know my mom's a pain in the ass or whatever. Thank you for doing this favor for my mom, because, like, her, you know, as much as she might be crazy knowing she's okay or, you know, it just makes our lives better, but, like, give him the permission not to, like, do it for her approval. And if he's only doing it for approval and you don't need him to do something, then he doesn't have to do it.

[Leanne]

Okay.

[Leanne / Lauren]

And then, like, with my kids as they're growing up, like, should I set a boundary with her to be like, you don't talk about their dad this way or. Because that's something I really worry.

[Nick]

Oh, my God. A very firm boundary. You won't be able to see my kids if you. If you do that, you know?

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah. Okay. Because, yeah, she did that growing up with a lot of people, and it was always just, like, heavy and like, they were all good people. It's just. She's like. Just likes the drama.

[Nick]

Maybe once in a while you just, you know, it sounds like you're able to stand up to your mom in ways that maybe other people aren't, and you could just say, mom, I get it. I'm sorry you've had just. I don't even need you to like my partner. But you. You. You can't disrespect him. And you need to respect me, and I choose to be with. You know, and I'm, you know, and so you just. You can't do that.

[Leanne / Lauren]

I really appreciate that so much because I always just, like, need reassured about her knowing that I'm not stepping on my mom's toes. She is so important to me, and I do admire how hard she worked growing up, but it's. It's hard whenever, like, you can step on her toes. I want her to respect me. Okay.

[Nick]

You know, especially, you know, if she's sticking her feet out there. I don't think you have to gentle parent your mom.

[Leanne / Lauren]

I needed to hear that. Thank you.

[Nick]

Sounds like Your mom has a hard time with people in relationships, and so she's probably pretty reliant on her relationship with you.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah. And she, like, she's jealous of his parents, and that's another dynamic that's just hard to navigate.

[Nick]

She's got a lot to handle, but, like, you don't need your mom. Neither of you need your mom's approval. And I don't think your mom's going anywhere. And the more you let your mom think that she has influence over either of you, the more power you give and the less you know. And the opposite is true, too. You know, you just be like, mom. You know, stop.

[Leanne / Lauren]

But I'm so bad about that, too. I just, like, let her kind of run the show all the time.

[Nick]

Well, yeah, definitely try to work on that, because it'll. Yeah, that's. Try it out. Just try not tell yourself you don't care. Stand up to your mom and wait a couple days and realize nothing really changed.

[Leanne]

Okay.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Okay.

[Nick]

Other than maybe she threw a temper tantrum or something.

[Leanne / Lauren]

She does that. But I guess I need to work on not letting those affect me.

[Nick]

Try to see her like you see your kid. I'm serious. You know, you love your kid unconditionally. I'm sure at times they're a pain in the ass. I'm sure at times you can't. You know, you're just like, I don't even know how to deal with this, but, like, you know, but you're certainly not gonna let your kid walk all over you. And you're gonna tell your kid no when you need to. And you're not really worried about your kid not loving you, because you know your kid needs you. And I honestly think your mom's pretty much in the same boat.

[Leanne / Lauren]

That's wonderful advice. Thank you so much.

[Nick]

And if your mom disowns you and I'm wrong, you know, you can certainly try a different route, but I think it'll be okay.

[Leanne / Lauren]

She definitely threatens things, and that makes it a little bit difficult. Like, I don't know, like, with. With my kids.

[Nick]

Well, you know, listen, you probably could use a little break from your mom if she decided to not talk to you for a month.

[Leanne / Lauren]

That's kind of something my fiance has brought up is like, maybe because she has so much influence over me, he's like, you know, maybe, like, a little break wouldn't hurt, but, like, I'm not telling you to do that, but maybe, like, you know, maybe like, just try to distance yourself a little bit. He wants to move. He Wants to move.

[Alex]

Just.

[Nick]

Yeah, and so like, you know, and that. And that comes down to your inability to maybe enforce some, some healthy boundaries. No one wants to you not talk to mom, but she does make threats and not talk to you, which are idle threats, but threats nonetheless. And so to your boyfriend's point, if the worst thing that happens is he follows through with threat, which is to not talk to you for a period of time, well, the bonus is you guys get a little bit of a much needed break.

[Leanne / Lauren]

She like, doesn't threaten to like, keep distance. She actually like inserts herself more at that point. So she'll like come to my house unannounced when, like my fiance is in his underwear. And like, she'll like. I don't know. She like, kind of like she does more. She doesn't pull back. She like inserts her opinions even more and like calls me three times a day.

[Nick]

Stop answering.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Tells me that I punishing her but not answering. Yeah, she'll be like, you're punishing me by not answering.

[Nick]

Well, you know. Yeah, I am.

[Leanne]

Yeah.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Okay.

[Nick]

Correct.

[Leanne / Lauren]

I guess I need to just be stronger with that. With that. Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Because then I'm like, I don't want to punish you. I'm sorry. I love you. I'm like a people pleaser sometimes, you

[Nick]

know, like, mom, you're acting like you're not, you know, she's kind of right. And you are. And that's okay.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah.

[Leanne]

Okay.

[Nick]

There are consequences. The action that if your mom's not going to respect your wishes with your house and your family, then there's usually consequences to not respecting someone's personal boundary, I guess.

[Leanne / Lauren]

How do I go about that? Whenever she's like, really the person I rely on to like, watch my kids when I need to go somewhere like,

[Nick]

or do something that is obviously tricky. And then it'd be obviously, you know, easy for me to say to find someone else. But I'm sure there's a cost and a comfort. I don't know, just look at whatever the obvious alternatives are. I'm sure there are some alternatives. Maybe not ideal, but hopefully it doesn't come to that. It sounds like in the short run, you need to let your mom know that you are serious about enforcing your boundaries and she can't continue to weaponize your relationship with her against you. And while you don't want to, if she's not going to respect your partner or respect your boundaries, there are going to be consequences, which is you kind of pulling back and limiting her access to you and your family, even if that means having to, like, ask someone else to help with the kids.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah. And I hardly ever leave them with her. Like, it's been, like, a year. So, like, it's not even often. So it's good. It's fine. It's just I feel bad because I want her to be able to be an active grandparent. I want, you know, I want my fiance and her to have a good relationship. But if that's. That's not gonna happen, that's not, I guess, not my fault.

[Nick]

I think it's still possible, but I think it's gonna be required for you to have some discipline with yourself about your mom. And in the short run, there might be some discomfort with this relationship, and it might feel like in the short run, it went backwards more than forwards. But I do think there is a path forward. But it requires your mom to just accept the new reality, which is you're in charge.

[Leanne / Lauren]

I love that. Yeah, I would love to be in charge for once.

[Nick]

That's entirely up to you. You are an adult, and you have everything that she has, and all you want is a relationship with her. She is right now acting like she wants much more than just a relationship. She wants a say over your decisions.

[Leanne / Lauren]

There's probably an obvious answer to this too, but I have one more, like, dynamic to it that's kind of annoying. She still has me on a tracker on my phone, and it bothers my partner so much, he's like, leave the tracker. Because she'll text me and be like, what are you doing at the ice

[Nick]

machine at 10pm Is this because you're sharing a location on your phone or

[Leanne / Lauren]

like, yeah, it's on Life360 and we're a part of a family group. But she's always said, like, if I leave the group, she's got too much anxiety. She just wants to know that I'm safe. But then she'll use it and text me and be like, what are you doing here at this time? Or, what are you doing here? And I'm like, I'm 29.

[Nick]

I don't think it's the end of the world that your mom wants you to feel safe. But again, without getting into the weeds, it sounds like there are some clear examples that make you uncomfortable. So you need to address that with your mom. And if you decide that it, you know, your mom, you know, again, stop. You gotta let your mom's threats about her anxiety and her, you know, that's her problem. And at the end of the day. The message to your mom is mom, but you need to demonstrate to me some self control when it comes to your opinions and attitude towards me and my partner. And you're. Again, she's not in charge. She is not your parent in the way that she was your parent when you were a minor. And she's having a hard time letting go of that. And as a lot of parents do, I like to think that I will be self aware and proactive when my children become adults, but I imagine it will be difficult to pull back from being the active parent that I am.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Absolutely. No, and I understand that completely. It's just been like 10 years since I've been an adult and I'm trying to find these ways of finding my independence so that we're not. So I just feel like I've always been a part of her identity because I felt like I've kind of grown up with her and that's like, tough to like, try to find my own

[Nick]

identity when she's like, despite all her, her, her, you know, misery from men. You are the one bright spot. You have any siblings? Is it just you?

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah, no, it's my sister and I kind of. She's 10 years younger than me, so I helped raise her a lot.

[Nick]

And you and your sister are her, like our only bright spot when it comes to, you know, so it makes a lot of sense why she's so connected and probably a bit of an unhealthy attachment.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah, yeah. No, I appreciate that you're in charge

[Nick]

and I think that's the thing you need to focus on. And you obviously have a lot of love for your mom, so it's going to be difficult for you to enforce these boundaries. So the best thing you can do is try to remind yourself that you're not being mean and vindictive. And that's not in your. It's not in your nature.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And it's going to be a challenge for you to enforce these boundaries. And you got to push yourself to enforce these boundaries without feeling guilty about it, because it's in no one's best interest for your mom to keep moving the way she's doing. Because the last thing you want is to actually affect your marriage and your relationship or ultimately affect her relationship with her grandchildren. You got to try to nip it in the bud before it really gets toxic.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Yeah. Okay. And then with my partner, like, I'm not making problems that aren't there. Then just because my mom has got this past. Right. Like, I'm just These are real problems that I can have and still work with him through. Like, because I'm worried that I'm being too hard on him because of the way that my mom has seen things.

[Nick]

Maybe a little bit of both. But, like, it sounds like there are areas in which you feel disconnected from your partner, and there are areas which he's acknowledged he struggles with, and you guys just have to find that common ground.

[Leanne]

Okay.

[Leanne / Lauren]

No, I'm so grateful for your advice. Thank you so much.

[Nick]

All right. Anytime. Thanks for the call.

[Leanne / Lauren]

I watch your show all the time. It's an amazing, amazing show. I listen to every episode. You guys are the funniest.

[Nick]

Well, I appreciate you. Thanks for tuning in, and congratulations on life. And it sounds like overall, you have a pretty good thing going and keep focusing on that. But, yeah, you're not crazy for sure. At all.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Congratulations on your twins.

[Nick]

Thank you.

[Leanne / Lauren]

And your beautiful wife and your older daughter.

[Nick]

I appreciate you. I appreciate you. Take care.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Take care.

[Alex]

Bye.

[Leanne / Lauren]

Bye.