E832 - Going Deeper with Jaleel White

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Viall Files – Episode E832 “Going Deeper with Jaleel White”

Release Date: October 30, 2024
Host: Nick Viall
Guest: Jaleel White
Title of Guest’s Book: Growing Up Urkel

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Introduction to Jaleel White and His New Book

In this compelling episode of The Viall Files, host Nick Viall welcomes beloved actor Jaleel White, best known for his iconic role as Steve Urkel on the hit sitcom Family Matters. The conversation delves deep into White’s journey both as an actor and an author, particularly focusing on his newly released book, Growing Up Urkel.

Nick Viall expresses his admiration early on:

“[01:20] Nick Viall: Do you have your new book out, obviously, that you're releasing?”

Jaleel White confirms and shares his enthusiasm:

“[01:58] Jaleel White: Yeah, man. It's a very fascinating book…”

---

The Writing Process and Challenges

Jaleel White offers an intimate look into the creation of his book, Growing Up Urkel. Surprisingly, the book was rushed and completed in just six months, a stark contrast to the years Nick Viall took to write his own book.

“[07:39] Jaleel White: Yeah, okay, this one you're not going to believe. We got rushed, wrote it in a year. … it was really six months.”

White attribits part of his success to the support of his editor at Simon and Schuster, highlighting the therapeutic nature of the process:

“[03:18] Jaleel White: I had a very supportive editor at Simon and Schuster, Yadan. And I don't know, it was a real therapeutic experience…”

Notably, White emphasizes the authenticity and self-reflective nature of his writing, openly acknowledging his flaws and personal growth:

“[04:14] Jaleel White: …it's self-reflective enough where it was like, I think I was a little shit right here in this space. I think I might have been a little shit right here.”

---

Behind the Scenes of Family Matters

Jaleel White reflects candidly on his experience as a child actor on Family Matters. Initially brought on for just one episode, White's portrayal of Steve Urkel resonated deeply with audiences, leading to his character becoming a staple of the show.

“[12:40] Jaleel White: So I can remember it consciously as a kid watching the show, because first of all, a black show that would come on TV back then was a big deal.”

White discusses the dynamics with his co-stars, especially Darius McCrary, highlighting their close age and the camaraderie they shared:

“[05:08] Jaleel White: …Darius was born in May and I'm born in November in the same year. … We were the triumvirate. We were all pretty much the same age, same grade…”

He also touches on the challenges of balancing school with his acting career, mentioning how his parents ensured he received a proper education despite his early fame.

“[06:36] Jaleel White: …I talk about that in the book, too, where I went to public school while I was filming the show.”

---

Character Development: Steve Urkel vs. Jaleel White

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the development of Steve Urkel, a character that became synonymous with White. Initially skeptical about the character's potential, White credits his showrunner, David DuClaine, for envisioning the depth and humor that would make Urkel a beloved figure.

“[19:08] Jaleel White: So my showrunner, David DuClaine, … he was my captain and my hero. And he just always saw more in me as a performer than I ever saw myself.”

White details the audience’s overwhelming positive reception during live tapings, which solidified Urkel’s place on the show despite his own reservations:

“[12:45] Jaleel White: …we had a frat that showed up to the live taping that week, and they really identified with a nerd character. And so they would chant my character's name in all the scenes that I wasn't in…”

He elaborates on the distinction between his on-screen persona and his true self, emphasizing that while Steve Urkel was an exaggerated character, his personal mannerisms remained closer to his actual personality.

“[16:13] Jaleel White: …On the personal front, my mannerisms were always far closer to Stephan.”

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Navigating Fame and Public Perception

Jaleel White candidly discusses the complexities of being publicly identified as Steve Urkel. He notes how varying generations perceive his character differently and the challenges of being continuously recognized for a role that was initially intended to be short-lived.

“[21:38] Jaleel White: Black girls, specifically. … my whole legacy for black women tends to be Stephane.”

He addresses the persistent association with the character, even decades later, and the impact it has had on his personal and professional life:

“[22:58] Jaleel White: I wrote the book to answer people's questions. … I've had decades of questions that have been asked to me.”

White also shares his experiences with inappropriate public interactions, offering advice on handling fame with grace and setting boundaries.

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Changes in Hollywood: Protecting Child Actors

A poignant part of the conversation revolves around the evolving landscape of Hollywood, especially regarding the protection and supervision of child actors. White highlights the importance of parental involvement and the role of guardians in safeguarding young talents from potential exploitation.

“[39:34] Jaleel White: …a lot of kids go completely unsupervised by their parents in these work environments.”

He critiques the industry's previous neglect in protecting child actors, emphasizing his own upbringing where his parents were actively involved:

“[40:14] Jaleel White: …parents have struggled to maintain their careers while their children are in these work environments as well.”

White underscores the necessity for structured oversight in child actors' professional lives to prevent abuses and ensure their well-being.

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Personal Growth and Fatherhood

Transitioning from his professional experiences, Jaleel White shares insights into his life as a father, drawing parallels between his childhood and parenting strategies. He discusses the challenges of balancing career demands with raising a child and the importance of fostering open communication and strong bonds.

“[49:37] Jaleel White: …I want to let you know that you're at such an amazing age. … all of us, to get on with that journey because you… you just look so lovely.”

White offers relatable anecdotes about parenting teenage children, emphasizing the significance of establishing boundaries and nurturing a supportive environment.

“[50:28] Jaleel White: … it's very important that you observe your kids. So…”

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Advice on Relationships: Listener Call-In Segment

The latter part of the episode features a listener named Lauren seeking relationship advice regarding an on-and-off relationship with an ex who has children and is hesitant to commit. Jaleel White and Nick Viall provide candid, tough-love advice emphasizing the importance of setting clear boundaries, recognizing one’s worth, and prioritizing personal growth over unfulfilling relationships.

Key Advice Points:

• Establish Clear Boundaries: Avoid ambiguous terms like "working towards a relationship." Instead, be direct about your needs and expectations.
• Prioritize Self-Worth: Recognize the value you bring to a relationship and do not settle for inconsistent commitment.
• Take Action: Implement practical steps such as blocking the ex to prevent repetitive emotional turmoil and focus on personal well-being.

Notable Quotes:

“[72:41] Jaleel White: … every kid’s gonna be different. It’s very important that you observe your kids…”

“[75:11] Jaleel White: … ask him point blank. Do you see anytime soon being stepmother to your kids…”

The hosts stress the necessity for emotional fortitude and proactive measures to break free from detrimental relationship patterns, encouraging listeners to seek fulfillment and respect in their partnerships.

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Conclusion: Embracing Personal Evolution

The episode wraps up with Jaleel White reflecting on his own journey of self-belief and resilience in the face of industry challenges. He shares his gratitude for the supportive figures in his life and his commitment to continuous personal and professional growth, inspired by fatherhood and authentic relationships.

“[58:34] Jaleel White: … ultimately more protected than I was hurt. You gotta get lucky in the people you get a chance to cross paths with in this life, in this business.”

Final Takeaway: Jaleel White’s candid discussions offer profound insights into the life of a child actor navigating fame, the importance of self-belief, and the enduring impact of supportive relationships. His advice extends beyond personal anecdotes, providing valuable lessons on maintaining integrity, setting boundaries, and prioritizing personal growth in both professional and personal realms.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. On Writing and Self-Reflection:

   “[04:14] Jaleel White: … I think I was a little shit right here in this space.”

2. On Character Development:

   “[19:16] Jaleel White: …David was his creation. And when I read the script at Table Reading, …”

3. On Protecting Child Actors:

   “[39:34] Jaleel White: …parents have struggled to maintain their careers while their children are in these work environments as well.”

4. On Personal Growth:

   “[58:34] Jaleel White: … I ran into a patch where I stopped believing in myself.”

5. On Relationships:

   “[86:02] Jaleel White: …you got to ask yourself, am I, is this the real boundary or am I giving them an out?”

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The Viall Files delivers a rich, engaging narrative that not only revisits the beloved character of Steve Urkel but also offers deep personal insights from Jaleel White. From navigating early fame and industry changes to embracing fatherhood and offering relationship advice, White’s journey is both inspiring and instructive. Listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the man behind the character, his resilience, and his wisdom gleaned from decades in the public eye.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content segments to focus solely on the substantive discussions and insights shared during the episode.

Transcript

[Nick Viall]

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[Nick Viall]

You're crazy. Jaleel.

[Jaleel White]

What's happening?

[Nick Viall]

Nick, welcome to the vow files.

[Jaleel White]

Thanks for having me, man.

[Nick Viall]

It's great to be with you. I'm very, very, very excited to chat with you. Like I said when you walked in, I absolutely grew up watching you. It was a huge, like, you were like one of my role models as a kid and it was. So it's a role model. Yeah, for sure, Stefan. For sure.

[Jaleel White]

Okay. Okay.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. I was gonna say.

[Jaleel White]

I hope not. Wardrobe room.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, I mean, I was a huge.

[Jaleel White]

You wouldn't have pulled this.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

I grew up watching Family Matters, TGI Fridays. Like, it was definitely. I was a kid during that generation, so. And then. Yeah, it was just. I was a huge fan and so, like, there's definitely, like, this is a pretty cool moment for me. So very excited to have you. Do you have your new book out, obviously, that you're releasing?

[Jaleel White]

Yeah, man.

[Nick Viall]

It's a very fascinating book. I mean, you really talk a lot about.

[Jaleel White]

You read it.

[Nick Viall]

I had. I read parts of it.

[Jaleel White]

Don't lie to me.

[Unknown]

I've read parts of it.

[Jaleel White]

You're on film.

[Nick Viall]

I have. We have the whole book here. Right here.

[Jaleel White]

Holy smokes.

[Nick Viall]

Zach on my team. Read your whole book in two nights.

[Jaleel White]

Read it in two nights.

[Nick Viall]

I was like. I was like hey, you know, I got a daughter.

[Jaleel White]

Is this Zach or is.

[Nick Viall]

No, that's Zach's.

[Jaleel White]

On the other side.

[Nick Viall]

You'll meet Zach.

[Jaleel White]

All right, I gotta get Zach in here.

[Nick Viall]

But I, you know, I was like, hey, I got, I got a lot of shows to do. I don't have. I'm going to page through it, read some chapters. I asked how much could he read so I could prepare for the interview. Zach went and started reading it and he like texted me. He's like, this is a great book. And he's like, finished half the book in night one. Finished. Finished the rest in two nights. He burned right there.

[Unknown]

So to let everyone know, cover, Cover Up Urkel is a great read.

[Nick Viall]

It's a great, easy read. Thank you. It's full of fascinating stories and he's sending me all these notes and I'm like, holy shit. This is very fascinating.

[Jaleel White]

Ah, this is so fun. I don't think people realize that compliments in another sector of media or art or expression, they just, they land differently over time. I've been in the business for 40 years, so to have someone say that they, they've enjoyed a book that I wrote and I know how many late nights I stayed up trying to meet the deadlines of turning in these chapters, it just, it's really satisfying.

[Nick Viall]

Were you nervous writing this book?

[Jaleel White]

Yeah. No. When I printed out the, the first draft, I just kind of had a little meltdown. This is shit. Why did you think that it's, I mean, come on. I mean, we've all written college papers and stuff like that or whatever, right? And you go back and you read them and you're like, what the heck? You know, and, you know, it's just like any first draft and then you get through the editing process and you're like, okay, wait a minute, I can reorder this, I can cut that. And it starts to come together. And I had a very supportive editor at Simon and Schuster, Yadan. And I don't know, it was a real therapeutic experience, to be quite honest.

[Nick Viall]

Really?

[Jaleel White]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, you do obviously very much talk about your entire career, your life growing up. The question I was, I mean, you said it was therapeutic, but I was curious. Were you self conscious reading it back, wondering, like, how much are people going to be interested in this? Like, just knowing that it was, you know, the book was about you and deciding what was something that you should share or not. But I guess what part also was therapeutic?

[Jaleel White]

The part that was therapeutic was going back and revisiting certain relationships, you know, like I called up Kelly Williams. She's always Kelly. To me she's not Laura, but to you guys she's Laura, Laura, Laura, right. So, you know, calling up Kelly and you know, discussing what our relationship was and things she would be comfortable with me sharing and just, I don't know, there's two sides to every story. And so I worry when somebody tells me a side of the story where they did nothing wrong at all. Right. So I wanted to make sure that the book was self reflective enough where it was like, I think I was a little shit right here in this space. I think I might have been a little shit right here. Or here's where I was dorky. I talk about my first date ever. I couldn't even drive. My co star drove me on my first date. Darius McCrary and I, who played, who played Eddie Winslow, are only six months apart in age. And that's something I really kind of wanted the whole world to finally put together.

[Nick Viall]

Like, okay, I had that in the notes and I actually asked Zach, I was late, how close in age were they? Because you met and I, it was, I was surprised because on the show he plays someone much older than you on the show.

[Jaleel White]

He's a giant Darius. So the day I ever met Darius, Darius was, you know, six 1, 220 pounds and I was five and this much soaking wet. But Darius is born in May and I'm born in November in the same year. And you know, so Darius was always doing everything way earlier than me. I remember him driving to the set at 14 years old with his mom in the passenger seat. No license, no nothing, just pulling into his parking spot. The 90s are different, Doc. You know, they were different. You know, in the 80s you didn't have to buckle up your kids, man, you didn't get arrested for that, you know, Car seats, he didn't have car seats. They just kind of traveled in the car.

[Nick Viall]

And people was like, oh, he's famous, it's fine.

[Jaleel White]

I mean, like I said, he looked like a man. So as long as you're not doing anything illegal, you're not going to get pulled over.

[Nick Viall]

I guess so, yeah.

[Jaleel White]

It was different back then. So, you know, I loved it. I enjoyed writing about Darius. Darius does some lunatic things sometimes in his own private life, but he'll still always be a brother to me. And just talking about the three of our childhoods together, we were the triumvirate. We were all pretty much the same age, same grade, you know, same prom year, same graduating year, all that kind of Stuff. So we lived a lot of things together.

[Unknown]

Were you prom. Like, were you. Were you going to school while filming?

[Jaleel White]

Yes. I talk about that in the book, too, where I went to public school while I was filming the show. And it was. My mother was adamant that I go to public school.

[Unknown]

So were you the most popular kid in school?

[Jaleel White]

Depends on which school we're talking about. I went to a school where I was the only black kid in the entire school.

[Unknown]

Oh, wow.

[Jaleel White]

That was an interesting dynamic. And then I left that school. I went to a school that was almost kind of like the school from Lean On Me with Joe Clark as the principal.

[Nick Viall]

And then.

[Jaleel White]

And then in that school, it wasn't such a good thing to be so popular, especially with my image. So. But I talk about what it was to go to school. Like, pretty much my schedule with going to school was every two to three weeks. I went to school for a complete week. So I enjoyed popping into my classes and being caught up. And the kids are like, we haven't seen you for two weeks and you're taking tests with us and answering questions. It was kind of like a little magic trick. I actually enjoyed to be caught up.

[Unknown]

So how long did the process of writing growing Up Urkel take? Cause Nick wrote a book. It took him years.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah, okay. This one you're not going to believe. We got rushed, wrote it in a year.

[Unknown]

Anxiety.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah. And it really was really. And really, it was six months.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Jaleel White]

Because once you get into production, you know, this is not like turning in a paper to, you know, a college professor. There are delivery items, and there's a whole delivery schedule. And so, in fairness, I definitely had two ghostwriters that I was charged with working with. Let me just educate people out there. If you've never published a book, nobody's paying you to write a book without somebody right beside you who has already delivered a book. It's. It's almost like hiring a contractor to, you know, to build a home. Nobody's going to hire a contractor who's never built a home, a completed home before. So, yeah, I had the option. I could have phoned it in, like a lot of celebrities do. And I don't need to say names, but I, you know, but I was really more inspired by the people like Jeanette McCurdy's, who I really just connected with her book. I thought it was so authentic from a child acting perspective. I was like, oh, she telling. She telling.

[Nick Viall]

She's the one.

[Unknown]

My mom.

[Nick Viall]

I wish my mom was dead or something.

[Unknown]

I heard that was Amazing.

[Jaleel White]

She beats me on the title. I don't. I try to thank God you don't. I mean, but I was like, I can't throw mom under the bus like that. My mom wouldn't like that. But it was a great book, it inspired me and I really took on the challenge of writing my own book. And so, you know, you're going to get a lot of people that have opinions about, well, this should be taken out. This can be taken, or this can be reworded this way. And in this day and age, I was actually blessed to have two females that worked alongside me to do that. Because once something becomes literary, there's no taking out of context. It's like it's printed right here. Right. So there's a different level of nerves, you know what I'm saying?

[Nick Viall]

For sure. When you auditioned for Family Matters, how did that character develop? Did you always know you were playing a guy who was a nerd? How did you feel about that? Did you really feel like you had to get into that character? Or did you kind of feel like, you know, maybe I'm a nerdy kid or like, who did you relate more?

[Jaleel White]

I guess ultimately, man, I was just a 12 year old kid who wanted to get a Sega Genesis. That's it. That's it.

[Unknown]

Did you ever get one?

[Jaleel White]

Yes, it was. So my dad came up with a. So in this year. Sega Genesis came out in August of 1989. I auditioned for Family Matters in September of 1989. I wasn't allowed to get things of that size unless it was for my birthday, Christmas or I'd gotten a report card. So my dad had come up with this ingenious idea that anytime I went on an audition, if I booked a job, I could get one of anything I want. And think about that. It's actually brilliant. It's like, what do you mean? But you're telling a 12 year old you can get one of anything you want. And I mean, if I'm going to Toys R Us, Circuit City, these are the stores that mattered back then, right? I mean, what. Anything that I wanted was gonna cost at the most, 200 to $300. And that's if I'm like, yo, can you get that from the top shelf way up there? Right? And I wanted a Sega Genesis. And so I hated going on auditions at this point in my life. I wasn't booking a lot of jobs. The auditions would come like once, maybe every month or two. And I generally had to miss basketball practice to go on the audition. And even when I'd get there. I still had a sense for the business because I'd been acting since I was three. I would not even feel right for the roles. But I saw the description of this character, and it was really just a black kid doing a terrible Ed Grimley and Pee Wee Herman to try to get a Sega Genesis.

[Nick Viall]

That's incredible.

[Jaleel White]

Did you win?

[Nick Viall]

I'm curious, because Steve Urkel was the star of the show.

[Jaleel White]

I mean, in your opinion?

[Nick Viall]

You don't think so?

[Unknown]

Come on.

[Jaleel White]

I mean, I talk about that.

[Nick Viall]

Did you think it was.

[Jaleel White]

No, it was just, you know, it was.

[Nick Viall]

No offense.

[Jaleel White]

It was. It was like. It was just, you know, technically speaking, I just. I always like acknowledging. I was like, hey, man, I wasn't the star of the show. And behind the scenes, there were a lot of ways in which I was always reminded, you're not the star of the show. When I went out in public, okay, everything changed. And I accepted that role model responsibility. I wasn't, you know, Charles Barkley about it. I felt like I'm a role model. You know, I accepted that. But the show was always, you know, it was. It was intended to be geared around Harriet and Carl.

[Nick Viall]

That's what I thought. I mean, I even remember as a kid when the show came out, I mean, I honestly think I maybe watched the pilot. Like, I, you know, I was a big fan of.

[Jaleel White]

I watched the show before I was on the show, and I didn't like the show.

[Nick Viall]

Oh, that's right, you weren't. That's right. You weren't even.

[Unknown]

You were only supposed to be on for one episode.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah, like the show. I came on episode 12.

[Nick Viall]

Ah, that's right.

[Jaleel White]

So I can remember it consciously as a kid watching the show, because first of all, a black show that would come on TV back then was a big deal. And especially for black folks, we like, oh, we gotta see what they doing. And I remember there was a scene with family members.

[Nick Viall]

Was like the first. Like, other than the Cosby Show. I grew up watching the Cosby show, and that went on.

[Jaleel White]

So, of course, we get called a Cosby knockoff and whatever. They got called a Cosby. I wasn't there yet. They got called a Cosby knockoff. So I.

[Unknown]

Is that true? Were you only supposed to be on one episode and the audience just loved.

[Jaleel White]

You so much and they just nailed it. We had a frat that showed up to the live taping that week, and they really identified with a nerd character. And so they would chant my character's names in all the Scenes that I wasn't in, like, we want the nerd. We want the nerd. And so I remember walking to the parking structure at Sony Studios right here, which was then Lorimar Studios at the end of that taping. And I was walking with the frat because I parked where the audience parked because I was only a guest. And they're like, man, you're a funny man. They're giving me high fives and everything. And little do I know a deal is being made for me to return on Monday. Wow.

[Nick Viall]

Wow. How did your co stars react to that?

[Jaleel White]

Well, like I said, that was rough in the beginning, you know, and I think that's been highlighted enough. And over the years, I like to, in the book, show how we ultimately did grow together.

[Nick Viall]

Sure.

[Jaleel White]

And there's enough pictures even in the book to. To support that. We're the only black show that's ever filmed in Europe. We did a two part episode in Paris. That was a magical time. Wow. We did episodes at Disney World when that was the thing where every show had to go to Disney World. Right. And, you know, we really grew as a family. You don't do 215 episodes, man, if everybody's just fighting and not getting along. We had incredible laughs on that show. It's just the reality of it is, look, it was the 90s, and the 90s are our 60s, so, you know, life has changed, values have changed, and sometimes people's memories get a little fuzzy and foggy when they look back on the. Look back on things.

[Unknown]

Family Matters is still. Is the longest running sitcom with a predominantly black cast.

[Jaleel White]

Second.

[Unknown]

Second.

[Jaleel White]

What was to the Jeffersons? You're too young to remember the Jeffersons.

[Unknown]

That's like, oh, my gosh.

[Jaleel White]

She's like, oh, my God, what is that?

[Unknown]

I don't know the difference.

[Jaleel White]

You do, baby.

[Nick Viall]

Anyway, I know the judges.

[Jaleel White]

You got a hot wife that's young enough not to even remember the Jeffersons. Dog.

[Unknown]

Y'all are old, literally. But did you realize how important that was at the. You did.

[Jaleel White]

No, I did. I did. They did something to us that kind of registered to me. I saw a lot when I was a young kid, so my brain kind of clicked on an adult level, but I didn't understand human nature yet, if that makes any sense. So it's like, hmm, that's interesting. Why is that? And you're a kid, so you're not processing it on an adult level. But I remember they hung a banner after our first 100 episodes and they said, congratulations on your first 100 episodes. And that banner hung over our audience bleachers for the next two 100 episodes. But I remember when they hung it after the first 100, I got a little nervous because I was probably around 15 years old, and I was like, oh, shit. Like, they expect us to do another 100 of these. And I knew where I was in my development and I knew I was struggling with the voice at times and just, you know, puberty and my brain. And I'm like. And that first always stood out. I'm like, that's not a typo. Like, they know more about the business of where we're going than we do, obviously. And over the years, they made clear sense. Yeah, they did.

[Nick Viall]

You talked about. You mentioned you went on your first day with Darius and you talked about how cool he was.

[Jaleel White]

And he was so cool.

[Nick Viall]

You kind of identified as like, someone who wasn't in the book.

[Jaleel White]

Oh, yeah, no, I was. I was much. I was a different version of a nerd.

[Nick Viall]

So, you know, reading that part of the book, I was kind of fascinated. And like I said, and I appreciate you allowing me to be a little bit of a fan here, but go.

[Jaleel White]

In on your couch, dog, do your thing.

[Nick Viall]

But like, not to sound dorky, but like, when. When Stefan came out on the show, I was like, I just thought that was the coolest fucking thing as a kid.

[Jaleel White]

That's so funny.

[Nick Viall]

And I don't know what it was. I don't know, maybe everyone loves a glow up or something. I was an athletic kid. But something about that. When every time you transformed into Stefan, I was just like, this is the coolest fucking kid in the world. But I was also more like, oh, I think it's the first time I really understood acting in a sense, because as a kid, you're like, oh, this is. This is a nerd. You know, the nerd comes in and then all of a sudden this. You take a potion and you become this cool guy. You can play Batman.

[Jaleel White]

It was a real potion to him.

[Nick Viall]

But I also, when reading that book.

[Jaleel White]

Was on the shelf reading that book.

[Nick Viall]

I was surprised to hear that because, like, I saw you play Stefan. You were this cool cat with all this charisma. And. And then you read that part about your first date and you almost describe yourself more Urkel. Like, and I'm just curious is like, who. Who was more the kid growing up? Were you more Stefan or were you more Steve?

[Jaleel White]

I was definitely. So first of all, the trick to Stefan, anyway, just as the acting trick was Stefan was just. He over exaggerated a lot of his movements and he over complimented everybody. So he would tell Carl he lost weight when he hadn't. He would tell, he would tell Harriet she looked younger than Laura. He would, you know, he would just do that. So there were just certain tricks to the way he moved, the way he walked, the way he talked. On the personal front, my mannerisms were always far closer to Stephan. Absolutely. But as far as figuring out girls was concerned, I was the only child in the complete dunce.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Jaleel White]

My mom was somewhat of a control freak and she'll admit it now. And so she. My curfew followed my shoe size and my grade. It was 10th grade size 10. Being by 10 o'clock, 11th grade size 11.

[Unknown]

That's a good way to do it.

[Jaleel White]

No, she didn't consciously do that. I put this math together. In the afterlife, what happens when you wear size 13?

[Nick Viall]

Right?

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Jaleel White]

So when I got to be a 12 and a half, it was like, trust me, it was, it was a lot of turmoil. Still a lot of turmoil in my house in my senior year, though. But because of that interacting with girls and understanding what teenage girls were being drawn to, I was just a. I was a little off, you know, I was, I was a little. I was a little off. I wanted, I was very. I had a very movie romance idea of dating. So everything I saw in the movies is what I thought you were supposed to do.

[Nick Viall]

Sure, that makes sense.

[Jaleel White]

I was supposed to take her out to a nice restaurant. I was supposed to take her out.

[Unknown]

Who finally told you that? Like, it's not that deep.

[Jaleel White]

Oh, no, that's Darius slowly eroding.

[Unknown]

She's like, reel that shit.

[Jaleel White]

In introducing the bad boy to these.

[Nick Viall]

Scenarios, how did the character staphon even come to be? Were you like, hey, guys, I can play. I'm really good at basketball. I'm pretty cool. Like, who came up with that?

[Jaleel White]

You know, again, you have to be around people in our business who see more in you than you see in yourself. And until that happens, you're just. You're only going to. You're only going to grow so much. So my showrunner, David Ducline, who I haven't seen or heard from in years. And that's okay because he's moved to Chicago. He's not in the business anymore. But David was my captain and my hero. And he just always saw more in me as a performer than I ever saw in myself. For me, I knew how to get the laugh as being the guy in the suspenders that was as easy to get as a prolific NBA Scorer. I mean, I could just make a face. I could do. And I was. I'm gonna get a laugh off that. I'm gonna get a laugh off that. And it's like a kid. You know, a kid. When once a kid gets a room rolling, they start milking it. It was like, oh, this kid, he's got everybody going, right? But Stefan was David's creation. And when I read the script at Table Reading, and I'll never forget when we walked out of Table Reading, you know, he was. He wanted my feedback. And I was like, dave, I think he's boring. And he's like, no, Jaleel, trust me. Like, people need to see this side of you. And so that just shows you how, even though I was going to public school, I was. You know, I was turning in my work. That just shows you how disconnected I was. And we didn't have all this social media. We didn't have all of this social media. So you don't know how you're viewed around the world. You don't know how people are seeing you in other parts of the country and, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I thought he was boring at first, and, you know, David assured me that people wouldn't see it that way. And listen, I hit that door for that live studio audience in that white suit, and to this day, that's one of the most thunderous screams, stomping of the feet. Loudest bleachers I've ever heard in my life. It was so loud, I really wanted to break character and be like, are you serious?

[Nick Viall]

And I remember.

[Jaleel White]

But I didn't. But I didn't, because I took real pride in not breaking character. Breaking character basically means, like, if you really got a good scene going, the laughs are just going. Sometimes as actors, we know we could get you to break character. Like, oh, I'm about to get him to laugh. You would see Seinfeld do the bloopers. We have those same kind of bloopers, too. And. But I didn't like anybody getting me to break character. Like, I wanted to always make sure we got the best tape, best take in the can.

[Nick Viall]

Did you notice fans in public look at you or treat you differently once Staphon came onto the scene?

[Jaleel White]

Black girls. Black girls, specifically. Very much so. Like, black women in general don't even really refer to me as Steve. They almost kind of, like, just leapfrog. My whole legacy for black women tends to be Stephane.

[Nick Viall]

Okay. Wow, fascinating. I know you talk in your book a lot about the sensitivity around people referring you to as Steve or trying to get you to do the voice or the line as someone. I don't know what you know about me a long time ago as the Bachelor. And so a little bit about you. I know that much. So, yeah, even to this day, it's been like, almost a decade, but, like, someone asked me to hold a rose, I fucking cringe, you know? So, like, I very much relate to that. How have you been able to find that balance? Because, like, I know that, like, when I first, you know, got done with the Bachelor, I think especially on reality tv, you really want to not just be, you know, pigeonholed into that, you know, at the same time, it's like this recognition of, like, well, this is how people in the public know me, you know, And I've basically spent a decade trying to find that balance of, like, how do I give my audience the things they're looking for while simultaneously try to show them other aspects of what I can do or my personality or. How have you balanced that?

[Jaleel White]

I wrote the book to answer people's questions. I've had decades of questions that have been asked to me. And once I started just in literary form answering those questions, then it started to become a manuscript. And that really was essentially my proposal for Simon and Schuster. So grab that book right there and read the opening part right there to the left. And what does that question say?

[Nick Viall]

I'm dyslexic, so bear with me. Does it bother you when people still call you Urkel? Yeah, this is a question I get all the time. Well, you read it. Seriously?

[Jaleel White]

No, this is your show. I'm on the Nick Files show. What are you talking about?

[Nick Viall]

I'm the guest. This is a question I get all the time, and it's an interesting one because the question lands differently from different people. That makes sense. Over the years, I've trained myself to hear their tone when saying the name or asking the question. Okay, I see where this is going.

[Jaleel White]

And thank you for playing along. But it was just like, I wanted people to understand how much the book is kind of about you and my interaction with you over the years, and how self aware I was about certain moments and things that were going on in my life. But listen, when you're a public figure, period, you know, I've learned that anybody can come up to someone and say something stupid to them. I remember I was hanging out with Donovan McNabb, the quarterback from the Philadelphia Eagles, one time, and he had a dude in a comedy store that just went on and on and on about Chunky Soup. I mean, just if you remember those Chunky Soup commercials he used to do, right? It was just like, this dude did a solid 10 minutes on Donovan and his mama in Chunky Soup. And, like, and it was kind of funny, too. And I could see Donovan's face, and I'm seeing him like, damn. I'm normally the dude in a comedy store that would have to withstand this, like, he went to Chunky Soup route. I didn't see that coming today. Right. And it's just, like, not everybody is going to have the best social graces, and I think that's common for anyone on the planet. So when you're the Bachelor or I'm the guy that played Steven Stephan, you know, they want the rose out of you. They want. Did I do that out of me? You know, that pushes things too far. If you're having a, you know, a romantic meal with your wife or something like that, and, you know, some guy comes up and he's like, you know, stand with my wife and pretend to give her a rose. It's like, suddenly that's. It turns performative. Like, you stick a quarter in my ass. You know, I'm like.

[Nick Viall]

And what you just described, like, has happened so many times.

[Jaleel White]

I know.

[Nick Viall]

It's like, no.

[Jaleel White]

And. And I. What I've just trained myself to do is there are people that. They just push it, and you can see them pushing it.

[Nick Viall]

There's a sense of, like, almost, you owe this to me.

[Jaleel White]

Oh, yeah, exactly.

[Nick Viall]

I've watched you. I'm a fan.

[Jaleel White]

Exactly. And those are just people with. Those are people, I'm telling you, they probably, in general, have very poor social graces. So I try to pause and just kind of, like, give it a second before I give a full reaction, especially if I get, like I said, somebody that even uses the character name. The good thing is millennials, for the most part, they call me Jaleel because they're Google generation. So if they like you for anything, they look you up, and then they just instinctively know you more from what they've seen of you online. So I hate to show people's age, but the only people really still asking me to say, did I do that? Are Gen X and boomers. So. So I try to have a little bit.

[Unknown]

Which is harder to be, like, rude to because it's like somebody's grandma.

[Jaleel White]

Exactly. So that's what. That's what I said.

[Nick Viall]

So sometimes it is the grandmas that kind of are off putting in public.

[Jaleel White]

They want to touch your Hair. They want to put their hands on you. They want to get physical with you.

[Nick Viall]

There's a bit objectifying. Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

[Jaleel White]

How many times does a woman come up and just absolutely disrespect your presence while he's standing there?

[Unknown]

It happens more times. It's a lot of like, take this photo.

[Nick Viall]

We first started dating. Yeah. When we weren't as public. I mean, now she's my wife and it happens a lot less now. But at first, oh, my God. Yeah. They would literally just hand Natalie the phone, be like, can you take this picture? You know, it's just like. And we were very like, would you take it?

[Unknown]

I would.

[Nick Viall]

Well, then she did. Have you got the prize?

[Jaleel White]

Come on, give me a good one.

[Nick Viall]

She did it first, but then I would. I would stop. I would. I wouldn't let them ask her anymore.

[Jaleel White]

Nah, that means he's in love with you. Because I do. No, no, no, no. That's my wife. That's my daughter. We can find somebody else around here.

[Nick Viall]

Well, yeah, it's disrespectful, you know, now it's just like, if you know me, you should know her.

[Jaleel White]

I wish. I swear, I wish I could teach people, though, the graces of approaching somebody famous. I mean, the best approach. The best approach I ever had was actually. Was a. It was an 11 year old, like, Iranian kid off a plane. I got off a plane and a kid comes up to me and he's got his phone, and he says, can I take a picture with you? And he was already. He already. He had it fired up. So he had it fired up. But he didn't see. I didn't see the other side. He's just. I just saw. He had. In his hand. Yeah. Should we take a picture? Boom, he's ready to selfie. Bam. Done. All right, man. Nice to meet you. Cool. With Grady away. And cool. Get ready to walk up. He's like, can you sign it? He had already flipped it to the portion of his phone that would allow me to take my finger and sign.

[Nick Viall]

He's ready to go.

[Jaleel White]

And I told her, I said, dude, if I had a bigger company, I'd want to hire you. But this kid was ready. So the lesson in all that, though, is one, read the situation. Don't intrude on someone while they're eating. You know, try not to intrude to someone if they're having. If the body language says they're on the phone, they're on the phone.

[Nick Viall]

They're eating. Oh, I'm sorry to bother you. No, you're not.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah, yeah. You know, and I'm not saying this necessarily, that these are. These are, you know, absolute rules. I'm just saying if you want to increase your odds of a positive experience, listen to what I'm saying right now. Read the situation. Try not to disturb them while they're eating. If they're on the phone, don't do that either. If they're on a date. Okay. Pay attention to that, too. Be ready. If you do come in hot, be ready. Don't just assume and have your stuff filming already, because some people will get pissed like that right off the bat if they already see that you're filming. Like, I try not to do that because there's a game around that too. That's a separate conversation.

[Nick Viall]

You would agree that you. If you can, you want to say yes to as many people as possible. You want to. Yeah. We were in Nashville a couple of weeks ago, and this group of people recognized me. And this older lady came up. I was holding my daughter. She's like, are you Nick from the Master? I'm like, yeah. She's like, can I take a picture? I'm like, sure. And then she just pulls out her picture and just starts taking pictures of me.

[Jaleel White]

Oh, yeah.

[Nick Viall]

I'll get in. Get in the picture, you know, And I'm like. And I'm like, I don't want my daughter in this photo, you know, like, you know, it's like Jesus Christ. Anyways, yeah, it's a. It's a. I mean, like I said, I couldn't imagine what you have to go through because, like, it's, you know, being Steve Urkel from Family Matters is. Is a lot of a bigger deal than just being one of the many bachelors that we had famous fame, though.

[Jaleel White]

Now it's changed.

[Nick Viall]

I'm telling you, Nick, the intensity, though.

[Jaleel White]

It'S, you know, it's. With each person in different. In different areas of the country, even, you know, even the world, you know, the reactions are always going to be. They're going to vary.

[Nick Viall]

A big part of your book, you talk about a lot of the fascinating people you've met throughout. Throughout the years. I mean, it's a. It is.

[Unknown]

You be name dropping.

[Nick Viall]

It is. I mean, it's pretty cool.

[Jaleel White]

I met everybody.

[Nick Viall]

I met everybody.

[Jaleel White]

The only person I did not meet was Madonna.

[Unknown]

Damn.

[Jaleel White]

Somehow. Somehow I did not meet Madonna.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, well, you could probably make that happen.

[Jaleel White]

I got a great story on her, though.

[Nick Viall]

Want to share?

[Jaleel White]

No. My boy would kill me. Madonna was a pimp, though.

[Nick Viall]

So you Have a friend who met Madonna. Okay, good to know. Good to know. I don't even know where to start there. But like, Jay Z is some. The story you talk about Jay Z is fascinating. Where you asked him to play basketball. Can you share that story? There's so many good stories. I'd love for you to like to tease some of these and share some of these anime.

[Jaleel White]

There's certain people I mentioned, and if I mention anybody, by the way, it's really not a name drop like, yo, you know, I'll pick that back up. I mentioned them because there were lessons around my interaction with them that I was absorbing very rapidly. And when I look back on it, those lessons are very vivid. And so, you know, I had been to nightclubs in one way, but the particular night that I went, I actually, you know. You've heard the term bubbling at Dublins? No, it's a lyric in one of his songs. So it was like, I've been to Dublin's with jc. So I'm like, you know, having lived that moment, it was like he and his crew exposed us to a completely different motivation behind going to the nightclub. Most people were going to doing a nightclub to get lit, maybe close the deal with somebody they try to hook up with, you know. But there are other motivations why professional people will partake in nightclub activity. And he just put on a show? Well, mainly promotion.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Jaleel White]

Mainly promotion. You know what I'm saying?

[Nick Viall]

So he's working always.

[Jaleel White]

Oh, yeah. I want to be perfect. It doesn't look like work, but there's an effect that, you know, that. That those. Those rappers wanted to create back when. When nightclubs operated that way.

[Nick Viall]

And then you asked him to play basketball?

[Jaleel White]

No, I asked him to play basketball. He just kind of blew me off a little bit. That's. He kind of blew me off.

[Unknown]

But you did play basketball game with R. Kelly?

[Jaleel White]

No, I did play basketball with R. Kelly.

[Unknown]

And was he good?

[Jaleel White]

He was athletic. How about that?

[Unknown]

Did he pitch a little fit?

[Jaleel White]

He was athletic. But I got a lot more than I bargained for playing ball with Arqueb.

[Unknown]

I bet you did.

[Nick Viall]

How so?

[Jaleel White]

You know, he's a difficult customer on a basketball court. It was a very memorable set of games, man.

[Nick Viall]

As someone who's been famous for a very long time, been in the business for a long time, met a lot of famous people. Some of the people you've interacted with, R. Kelly included, Bill Cosby.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Obviously have a very problematic past.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

In general, like, what is your opinion of Hollywood? I mean, right now we're in the midst of the P. Diddy situation. I don't. Do you. Have you ever met him? What was that?

[Jaleel White]

I never got invited to any parties.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Jaleel White]

You know, I constantly say rejection is God's protection, so I got left off the white party list. You know, I never. I never really went out of my way to get myself invited to any of those things anyway, thank God. And, you know, that's. That's just the way it is in the book. I address it. I address the historical context of these individuals because I don't ever want people to think that I'm discussing these people without respect to people who've been their victims or convictions that have taken place.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Jaleel White]

So I addressed that specifically, you know, and that was. That was something. I worked with our editor, but it was like, there are also individuals that a lot of people cross paths with. Puffy threw a lot of parties. That means a lot of people attended these parties regularly. And now everybody's gone. I think there's a way to be. To share what it is that you may have experienced honestly, and not just for clickbait and also independent of anything that may have taken place after you left or in closed doors that you weren't invited in. And so that's what I try to do when I talk about R. Kelly, when I talk about Mr. Cosby, even that. It's like, I'm from my generation. I'm still ingrained to call him Mr. Cosby. Like, you don't understand how much he insisted upon that.

[Nick Viall]

You know how he insisted you calling him Mr. Conway?

[Jaleel White]

Well, everyone around him called him Mr. Cosby or Mr. C. He insisted upon these titles. And when you were a child especially, you know, sure, I'm Generation X. Adults can do no wrong. If an adult tells you to do something, you do it. Values have changed, and that's part of what my book intends to do, is to say, hey, man, look, let's. Let's have a nostalgic moment for them, for the values that we miss. But let's also wave goodbye to some things that need to go and never need to come back.

[Unknown]

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[Unknown]

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[Nick Viall]

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[Unknown]

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[Jaleel White]

I think it's changed in the same way that you know, sexual harassment in the workplace has changed. There's, you know, there's a lot more talking tos before work even begins. HR is seeing to it that a lot more people are given a safe space to report anything they may have seen or may have heard. Ultimately, it comes down to something a lot simpler, really, when it comes to just kids working in show business. A lot of kids go completely unsupervised, though, by their parents in these work environments. It's where it's like, you just drop your kid off on this movie studio lot, and it's like, ooh, I've got these things to do, and I'm out. I'll be back. Exactly. And if you do that, you are pretty much creating some of the problem for yourself. I had a hover mom. My mom was always popping up, making sure my mom making sure that I was aware of her presence. I could never get a free moment without my mom spying on me, trying to find me or locate me on a movie studio lot. And. But that hovering also sends a message to people who would be predators. That's very, very important. The other thing, though, is parents have struggled to maintain their careers while their children are in these work environments as well. So my mom had a job when I got Family Matters, and she was sneaking off work to get me to the audition. And then once I started working on the show and she's saying she and my dad are in flux. They're like, well, Michael, I don't know how long this is going to last. I don't want to quit my job, but somebody's got to be down there with Jalil. And so then it becomes, you know, paying a friend who has a day off to watch me and that type of thing. So, you know, parents have their own journey, separate and apart from the kids. And I don't think a lot of those journeys are really shared. You know, what were the parents doing at the time of a lot of these things? If you're just abandoning your kid in a workplace environment that's really exclusively for adults, how much of that is just Hollywood, and how much of that is abandoning your duty as a parent?

[Nick Viall]

I suppose with Hollywood, I think you just assume that if your kids are on other adults, there wouldn't be predators.

[Jaleel White]

See, that's different. My mom thought the other way. Maybe that was just her. Her hood background. She grew up in South Central whatever. So she didn't trust any adult.

[Unknown]

Yeah, okay.

[Jaleel White]

So she came at it from a different. And it was weird. She didn't trust any adults, but at the same time, I had to obey adults no matter what they said. So that. That dichotomy was what was.

[Nick Viall]

Was there too I get what you're saying, but. Yeah, I guess it's just more like you just never would imagine that if you're dropping your kid off. Well, you know, it's kind of like you drop your kid off at school. I mean, I know that's not. No, that's different at school, but that's.

[Jaleel White]

Different because these are educators. These are people who have a background in working with kids. And even then, like, teachers were different back in the 90s. And what, what I got, I got a chapter in my book where I talk about a teacher just getting completely out of pocket with me in middle school. So now teachers have to deal with kids with phones filming what's going on in classrooms. Things have changed, you know, tremendously.

[Unknown]

You open up about your quote unquote first kiss.

[Jaleel White]

That was wild.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Speaking of, was a, an episode where you were 13, right, and a 30 year old woman stuck her tongue down your throat?

[Jaleel White]

She got caught up in baby. Yeah.

[Unknown]

I mean, how did.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, how does that happen?

[Unknown]

How does that happen? And how, like, what was your mom's response to that?

[Jaleel White]

Even my mom, you know, my dad was there and you know, we rehearsed all week with one level of kissing. And you know, a studio audience has a way of just kind of jacking up the adrenaline for any scene. And so when that scene came around and Steve got hot at the dice table and in a speakeasy where he and Eddie had no business, and you know, right before my last role, this woman was supposed to just grab me and plant a kiss on me. Cause she's winning all this money, you know, with me and Rowling. And once again, I didn't break character. So even when I come out of that kiss, I'm just like, okay, I know I felt something there that I hadn't felt all week, but you know, we're not gonna ruin this take. And so when they said cut, I remember just going to my dressing room and you know, I'm a kid, so I started crying. And I was in the bathroom, my dad came in, he was like, what's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong? And I was just like, oh, just ask Dave if we got it clean. Got it clean. And that's just shop talk for, are we moving on to the next scene? You know, they check the gate of the cameras. And so then David comes in and he's talking with my dad. And it's like, what happened? What happened? I think she kissed him a little vigorously. And so Dave and my dad start kind of laughing they're just laying, they're laughing at it.

[Nick Viall]

Almost like a rite of passage.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah, exactly. They're patting me on the back and they're like, all right, all right. Are you okay? You know, you need a moment. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was like, it was. And I remember them, my dad and Dave, you know, distinctly, you know, saying, you know, wow, we're really gonna laugh about this in 10 years. And then when I went back out to the set, even the crew guys, all the camera guys, Pepper and the guy, the Griffs and the gaffers, she really gave it to you, young fella. She really gave. And it was just like, it was a different time.

[Nick Viall]

That's what I'm saying.

[Jaleel White]

So even when I talk, even when I tell this story, you know, I have to be clear in this, please. Like, I don't want that woman attacked for like, oh, you assaulted him or this, that and the other. It was a different time. She pushed it. She didn't touch me any place inappropriate. But as far as that kiss was concerned, we did not rehearse it like that. And it went far. And it was, that was my first kiss.

[Nick Viall]

Well, also to your point though, is, you know, they, you know, regardless of how she handled that moment.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

It was still in the script to have an adult woman kiss a 13 year old boy. Oh, yeah.

[Jaleel White]

To lay it on me too. Like it was supposed to be a fake. Lay it on me. It's just that night it turned into the real lay it on me.

[Unknown]

Did the response of your dad, all these crew members, did that change how you feel about it? Exactly, it did.

[Jaleel White]

So. Exactly. You got a smart woman over here, she's over here reading my mind. But no, exactly. It changed how I felt about it because it made me feel like, wait a minute, am I over dramatizing something? Is this just something? And I could tell when he said, In 10 years we're going to be laughing about this. So I guess that's the way I'm supposed to be kissing girls at some point. At some point, right. It was a moment of hyper masculinity that, you know, was just blase back then. So I, when I share this story, I always like people to say, hey, look, just try to have respect for changing times. What they were and what they don't need to be anymore.

[Nick Viall]

That's what it's. The story's more about just how different things are now.

[Jaleel White]

Oh, yeah.

[Nick Viall]

How more aware we've been and just how detached in the society we were.

[Jaleel White]

When I looked at the film, quiet on set. Cause I finally broke down, I said, I want to see this, this documentary. I thought some of the things, honestly that those kids went through were far more traumatizing than my kiss. That's my just, that's just my personal opinion. Especially with the, I think one of the boys had, they had him dress up with like a bigger nose and they really turned him into a black caricature of himself. And with the licking and the toes and all that stuff, it was very.

[Unknown]

A lot of sexual.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah, it was so much just like overtly sexualizing of situations that I'm like, look, if I made it out of 215 episodes with a 30 year old woman slipping me some tongue, I'm gonna be all right. Maybe that's just the 90s and me coming out, you know, my own Gen X coming out. But it's a story worth sharing. But there's, trust me, I'm watching kids that have gone through far worse. And I think those kids, they just, I think their value was taken away from them. When I looked at that, you know, those kids were kicking ass for Nickelodeon. They were bringing in big viewers, big dollars, and they were part of a machine that really exploited what they meant to the machine. I didn't have to live that.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, well, we're very glad. Speaking of Diddy, I'm just finishing this conversation. It's almost like I'm glad we've had this awareness. I'm glad we've are realizing that was inappropriate. But it's 2024 now and someone like Diddy is finally being caught. And we're realizing he's been committing these crimes for a very long time. And you almost have to ask yourself, are there still predators out there? Not in Hollywood. Not being held accountable despite us. You know, again, you know, it's like from a corporate standpoint. Yeah, we're, we know what's inappropriate, we know we have hr, we have the sex coordinators, all these things. Do you, in your gut, do you think there's still a lot more dangerous people getting away with whatever they've been getting away with?

[Jaleel White]

Unfortunately, more people get away with things than get caught. What you have to hope for is that when people like Harvey Weinstein, you know, and Diddy and I threw that name in there so that it's not turned into a hip hop issue also. And you know, Diddy still has to stand trial, so I gotta be careful with my words. For me, the tape with him and Cassie was enough. So I don't Know anything about the trial stuff that's coming, we'll see that. But the tape with the Cassie stuff, that's.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, we can have our opinions based on that.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah, yeah, That's. That's. There you go. That's. That's. You can. My opinions pretty much swirl around that. But you just have to hope that the consequences that are associated with any of that kind of stuff deter people who have committed those offenses from dipping back into that. That pot and not being repeat offenders. That's all you can hope for, really. But, you know, people in general. I don't care, men or women. It's a human nature thing. People in power will abuse power. And all you can do in any workplace, in any home, is to create as many checks and balances so that, you know, their people are in power, are held accountable.

[Nick Viall]

You're a father.

[Jaleel White]

Yes, I am.

[Nick Viall]

How has that experience been for you?

[Jaleel White]

It's awesome. You got your girl dad too, though, right?

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Jaleel White]

All right. How old?

[Nick Viall]

She's nine months.

[Jaleel White]

She's nine months. Wow. You guys look really well rested to have a nine month old.

[Unknown]

She is a really great baby.

[Jaleel White]

She's a great baby. Or maybe your nanny game is just that nice.

[Unknown]

We don't have a nanny. Just us.

[Nick Viall]

We tag team.

[Jaleel White]

What?

[Nick Viall]

And she's a good baby.

[Unknown]

She's a great baby.

[Nick Viall]

We have babies.

[Jaleel White]

These people are super human. They look really good.

[Nick Viall]

She's a good baby.

[Jaleel White]

I have a nine month old.

[Unknown]

She is a good baby.

[Jaleel White]

Wow.

[Unknown]

Now our next could be. Could be crazy.

[Jaleel White]

The next is already in the making.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, we just. We know we want another child.

[Jaleel White]

Okay. Yeah. You guys feel fervent?

[Unknown]

Everyone always says, Everyone, Julio, Everyone always says the second child. You know, the first is. The first is what makes you want to have another. Cause the first is so good. And then the second is batshit.

[Nick Viall]

And then also our first dog, Jeff, Easy peasy. And then Steve's a father.

[Jaleel White]

I love that your dog is such a human name.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. Jeff and Steve.

[Unknown]

Jeff and Steve.

[Jaleel White]

Jeff and Steve.

[Nick Viall]

Jeff and Steve. Yeah.

[Jaleel White]

Yes. My daughter's 15, man. I'm very much a girl, dad.

[Nick Viall]

She's 15. So how. I mean, what is. I mean, teenage years. Yeah. What's that like? How's that adjustment?

[Jaleel White]

No, she just, you know, she's bucking for freedoms that she doesn't. She doesn't completely need. I'm actually more lenient with her than my mom was with me, so I struggle with that a little bit because I think we want to make up for every mistake our parents Made. So if you felt like your parents made a mistake, you want to do it differently. But you know, I don't want to be extreme also. But yeah, no, she wants to go to parties. You know, she wants to, you know, these girls are hopping out, you know, dresses up to here and boots up to here and you know, six, you know, six of them all piled into Uber, headed to party starting at 10 and 11 o'clock at night. And I'm like, let's chill.

[Nick Viall]

How do you balance? Because like, you know, growing up you always hear like, the more strict you are, the more they want to rebel or something like that. So how do you find the balance between giving your daughter and. I'd love some advice, you know, because I'm sure River, that's our daughter, she'll be 15, I'll blink and she'll be 15. But you know, I want to, I want her to feel empowered, but I also want her to understand rules and I want, you know, I don't, I don't want to force her to rebel and to do something I don't want her to do. And I feel like every parent struggles with this, but how do you handle it?

[Jaleel White]

So every kid's gonna be different. It's very important that you observe your kids. So and creating, it's more important right now that you just create the bond between you and River. That she wouldn't want to disappoint Daddy. That matters because. And when I say disappoint Daddy, I don't mean just like, just kowtow to any of daddy's wishes, but embody your values. So, you know, read to your daughter. I read to my daughter every night. But I was also in a 50, 50 co parenting arrangement. So that changes your mindset about time with your kid. When you have them, that is your time, you know, so in a wonderful situation like you guys have, things can get a little more lackadaisical and you can forget how quickly time is passing. So I'm telling you at nine months, man, like, get on it. Like, even the manipulations start.

[Unknown]

Oh yeah, early.

[Jaleel White]

I remember, I remember my daughter broke out crying and she couldn't have been like maybe 16 months or something. She's almost 2. And I heard it, she was like, she put her head down and everything. And I said, I said, that's a fake cry. Cause I've never talked to my daughter like she was a kid. I always talk to her like she's an adult kind of. And she looked up with 35 year old demonic eyes like it's not a fake cry.

[Lauren]

Ooh.

[Jaleel White]

And it was like another adult living inside of her was speaking on her behalf and had spoken out of turn. And it was like I called her on her shit. And in that moment, I'll never forget. Okay, wait a minute. There is something inside of you that is very aware that you can't speak and articulate quite yet, but there's a soul inside of you that wants to do things, and you're acting out. And from that moment, I became aware of her manipulating me. And so I would always nip things in the bud. I remember one time she was like. She had a mirror up, and she was like, daddy, I'm so pretty. She couldn't have been three. And I'm in a 5050 arrangement, too. So what happens with that? Sometimes your child is bringing things from another household into your household, and you're like, whoa. You weren't like that last week. And I shut it down right there in that moment. And I was like, somaya, pretty people let other people tell them that they're pretty. I said, ugly people tell other people how pretty they are. And I straightened her out with. And she looked at me, and she absorbed that quickly. And she's never made that mistake, and she never went down that road of vanity. And anytime you see something as a father, you gotta nip it in the bud right on the spot. Because they're testing you as soon as, like, 14, 15, 16 months.

[Unknown]

I mean, she's already crying if we take something away from her that she wanted to play with.

[Jaleel White]

Like, they are. They are.

[Nick Viall]

She'll scream and be like, are you okay? And then you realize, testing you.

[Jaleel White]

There's two books I would recommend. There's one called the Baby Manual, and the other one's called the Toddler Manual. And they're the best books, I think, for dads to get because they're actually written like car manuals. So they describe the baby as a machine with different. With all of these different components and how to operate the machine.

[Nick Viall]

That's funny. Well, thank you.

[Unknown]

I don't. I don't know what your daughter is into. If acting was her passion, how you wouldn't know.

[Jaleel White]

She doesn't want to be in front of camera. I asked my daughter point blank because it was just getting to that point. And I was like, smiley, do you want to act? Do you want to? Nope. And it was a very flat, definitive no. And it was like, all right. And I kind of see the way her phone is organized and she's got a Whiteboard in her room. And I'm kind of getting some ideas. I think she's an operations girl. I really do. Because there's a certain brain for operations. Yeah, yeah, there really is. For tour managers and coordinating and improving systems that are currently in place. So that's why I meant when I told you, I said, observe your child. It's very important that you observe your daughter and discover all the gifts that she has in a dad way where it's like, oh, you do that. Well, you know, my daughter could crack the code of any game. Any game we would play. She would find a way to short circuit the game. She just would. She just would. I remember I had these. I had this game, forget the name of the game. It's so dope. It's got these happy faces on chips. You should get it. It's a fun game and it's got frown faces on chips. And it's a game about greed. I think the game is called Greed. And you put your hand in the pouch and you keep pulling until you pull a frown face. And if you pull a frown face, then the turn goes to the next person. If you did it too many times, all your chips had to go back in.

[Nick Viall]

She had to kind of like figure out exactly there was a strategy so she would get.

[Jaleel White]

So you had to know when to stop. So if you stopped on your own without reaching in, that was the rule of the game. If you stopped on your own, you got to keep the chips that you pulled with the happy faces. But if you just kept going. And of course she's a child, she just thinks she can pull out nine straight, they all go back in. She keeps getting frustrated and she got really, really frustrated and just like, like, okay, calm down. It's just a game, baby. I said, honey, you just have to feel it. And I was saying it on some like Michael Jackson stuff. Like, I just have to feel it. Just feel it in your heart when it stop, right?

[Nick Viall]

Can you do pretty good Michael Jackson voice? He just slipped in there and she.

[Jaleel White]

Was like, oh, I'm an actor, so I can jump into that stuff. But then she looked at me and she was like, you're right, daddy, I just have to feel it. And she stuck in, stuck her hand in the pouch and she pulled out one happy face and she pulled out another happy face and she pulled out nine straight. And I'm like, how the frick did you do.

[Unknown]

Oh, my God.

[Jaleel White]

And she's playing a game with her other friends. And I realized what she's doing. She's taking her thumb and rubbing them across the chips and she's determining whether or not the frown was up or whether the frown was down.

[Unknown]

Like, thank you, daddy, you taught me how to cheat.

[Jaleel White]

She cracked.

[Nick Viall]

That's not cheating. That's the jail guest that's playing smart. Were you proud?

[Jaleel White]

But I, in the weird way I was, I was like, oh, you're like a future safecracker. I gotta watch you.

[Nick Viall]

I would have been very proud. I would have been very proud. You gotta channel that, you know, but.

[Jaleel White]

Like, daddy, I just have to feel it.

[Nick Viall]

That's great. That's great. Back to your career, what would you say is, you know, obviously minus the celebrity and maybe money behind it, what is something from your career that you're most grateful for and what is your biggest regret when it comes to your career?

[Jaleel White]

I think my biggest regret actually didn't come until my adult years. My adult years, I ran into a patch where I stopped believing in myself. The business tries to put you and it works hard to put you in a easily digestible box. So much so that you can start to doubt what your natural abilities are. I love telling. Since you brought up Michael Jackson, you know, Michael Jackson for the legend that he is, he had the hardest time getting off the wall, the album made, and there's a whole documentary about it. It's fantastic. Just about his journey from being one of the Jackson 5 to off the Wall. And every executive that was in charge, that was standing in as an obstacle in the way of him recording off the Wall was like, you mean the black kid who sings Ben? You don't even know the song, Ben.

[Unknown]

I don't.

[Jaleel White]

You might know the song, Ben. Okay, all right. So when I leave, play the song Ben by Michael Jackson and it's this really sappy, slow, wholesome song. The executives just had the hardest time with Quincy Jones trying to convince them that the black kid who sang Ben would be the next big pop star. I try to share with people out there says, listen, you gotta follow your own instincts, but you gotta be able to take criticism too. So you gotta be self reflecting in this business. But don't ever get to the point in this business where you doubt what your gifts are if you have tangible proof that your gifts have worked. Michael Jackson had performed in front of thousands of people by this time. He was a veteran of the stage. So for any executive who had never been on a stage, never worked a stage, never held an audience captive for two hours for a concert or whatnot to say, that was so dismissive. I understand what that is. So I just. I ran into a patch where I stopped believing in myself. And it really wasn't until my daughter was born again that I had no choice but to say, no, your gifts got you this far, and you're gonna keep going, and more magic is gonna happen. And learn to take that with a grain of salt where, you know, executives like that who just lack visionary capability, it's just gonna be along your path. So that's my biggest regret, is just not believing in myself for probably about a strong patch in my late 20s because it led me towards interacting with people that were not part of my journey, not part of my purpose. Everything. You start to just. You really just start to fall off your path when you stop believing in what you're supposed to be doing. You know, in the context of what this conversation has been, I'm grateful for the adults I got to grow up around. They weren't perfect. I tangled with some executives that they were sharks. They might have gotten the best of me, but I was overall more protected than I was hurt. You gotta get lucky in the people you get a chance to cross paths with in this life, in this business. I cross paths with some pretty cool adults that gave me a really, really interesting and fun and very educational childhood.

[Unknown]

At what point, if ever, did you start to feel rundown?

[Jaleel White]

Around 2001 for me. 2001, 2003. Somewhere in there. I definitely wanted to quit. So happy I didn't. I just feel like every time I've ever wanted to quit in my life, God sent me a reason, an obvious reason to keep going. I remember I was thinking about quitting the business right before I booked Dreamgirls.

[Nick Viall]

Wow.

[Jaleel White]

And I was at Makai Pfeiffer's house, who's a longtime friend of mine. And Makai Pfeiffer threw one of the greatest celebrity parties I've ever attended in my life. I mean, Mark Wahlberg was there. Paris Hilton was trying to get in. Like it was damn high fiverr. When he was on er, he was doing some big things. Damn. And I remember I came by his house, and I mean, the party's just.

[Unknown]

Cracking like Paris Hilton trying to get in the most iconic line.

[Jaleel White]

She got in, but I'm saying. But it was still a whole. She had to try.

[Nick Viall]

She had a try.

[Jaleel White]

We got Paris at the door, and it was like. But it was at a time too, where Paris showed up to your door. It made the party. And I remember a. Another actor, Keith Robinson, came up to me at the party and he was like, man, congratulations, man. I saw your headshot in the wardrobe room, and I'm like, what are you talking about? He's just like, dreamgirls, man. He's like, I'm in it, too. I'll see you at work. And I just played it cool, like, oh, yeah. No. I hadn't talked to my agent in a while, and as soon as he walked away, I remember just running out of the party and calling my manager at the time. And I didn't care what time it was or whatever. I woke him up and was like, dude, Keith Robinson told me I got it. He was like, oh, Jaleel, I didn't want to tell you the deal hasn't closed yet. That's me impersonating my man. And I remember I was so excited, but I was definitely in a moment of contemplation there. Being at the party, it was just. It's exciting to be around a lot of celebrities, but I don't see it that way. I see it as a professional in. So you have the most fun when you're in a room full of actors, when you're acting, because that's what we do, right? And, you know, whoever's won the most awards, whoever's movie is most recent, whoever's TV show is popping right there, they're probably having the most fun in the room, typically, you know, if they care to share their excitement. And whoever's looking for their next job or waiting for their next, you know, response to their last audition, you can kind of get in your feelings. So that was a moment where I know I was definitely kind of in my feels, and God said, hold on one second. Let me send Keith Robertson over to you.

[Lauren]

That's crazy.

[Jaleel White]

Let you know you got a job next week, brother.

[Nick Viall]

I know people love a great impression, and I'm getting the sense that you do. I know you're an actor, but not every good actor does a great impression. Do you have any good impressions that.

[Jaleel White]

You'Re like, you know what? I do them in the acting context, but out of respect for Jay Farrow and Jamie Foxx and the guys who do them so well. Hey, look, I. That's the standard. That's the standard. They just kind of come out naturally if I have to, because I feel like I can play anybody.

[Nick Viall]

But do you have one that you feel most confident about?

[Jaleel White]

I do Muhammad Ali for Jeff Ross and historical Rose.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah, I can talk like Muhammad, you.

[Nick Viall]

Know, that's pretty good.

[Jaleel White]

Well, I can talk to him if I have. If I have to. Give you a sting like a bee, fluke like a butterfly.

[Nick Viall]

I love a good person.

[Lauren]

That's good.

[Unknown]

Nick does love a good impression.

[Jaleel White]

I do.

[Nick Viall]

I. I think most people do. I don't know what it is about impressions that people are so fascinated by. You know, to hear the voice of someone else from through someone else is. I don't know what. I don't know why.

[Jaleel White]

I'll tell you, Nick. You don't want to tangle with me, Nick. I'm sorry. That is good.

[Lauren]

That's really good.

[Jaleel White]

Very good.

[Nick Viall]

Do you do any other one?

[Jaleel White]

Oh, gosh. I can talk like the governor. I can talk like the Governor Determinates.

[Nick Viall]

I can do a bad.

[Jaleel White]

I could do Van Arnold. Do it. Do it.

[Unknown]

Do we. I think our texting office hours is here.

[Nick Viall]

Time for texting office hours. All right. You down to help us? Someone out with a problem?

[Jaleel White]

Absolutely.

[Nick Viall]

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[Nick Viall]

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[Lauren]

Hi, my name is Lauren and I'm 26 years old.

[Nick Viall]

How can we help Lauren?

[Lauren]

I need help asserting my boundaries with my ex.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, tell me more about your ex.

[Lauren]

So we started dating July last year and things were going pretty well initially and then until March I noticed that he started pulling back and he was telling me. Well I confronted him asking what was wrong and he was telling me that he was feeling pretty overwhelmed because he's juggling two kids, a full time job and starting a master's program and we ultimately decided to break things off. About a week later he reached out and then we started hanging out again and then we were hanging out pretty consistently for the next two months and then in May it was my birthday and graduation and I had a party to celebrate both. Both and I was introducing him as my boyfriend to my friends and family. The following day he told me that he not that he felt uncomfortable but he just didn't like the label of boyfriend and he didn't really threw me.

[Nick Viall]

Boyfriend? Yeah.

[Lauren]

So I told him that I didn't want like friends with benefits. Like I only want commitment and I couldn't be in this if he didn't want that. So we cut it off again and then I found out he started seeing another girl and I was completely heartbroken. Then two weeks later he reached out and asked if I wanted to get dinner and I agreed and I just assumed, I know I shouldn't, I should have asked, but I just assumed he wasn't seeing this girl anymore. When we hung out, had dinner, we spent the entire weekend together. Then the following week I found out he was still seeing this girl and I ended up messaging her. We talked for a bit and she told me that he invited her over that night then asked if I would be willing to go with her to confront him together. And so we did. Damn, it's spicy.

[Unknown]

Go, girl.

[Lauren]

He was pretty surprised, but he was basically saying that he felt like he didn't do anything wrong because he wasn't in a relationship with either of us, which is true, I guess, but we both felt pretty betrayed. We ended up leaving. And that night he calls me and asks if I can meet up with him the following day so we can get on the same page. And I agreed. And so he told me that he didn't want to lose me and he wanted me in his life. So I told him that the only way I'd be willing to stay in his life is if we were in a relationship or working towards one. And he agreed, but asked if we could take things slow. And so for the next month, we were doing pretty okay. But during that time, he had family over. He was still doing school, he has his kids every other weekend. And I guess he felt overwhelmed again. I noticed he was pulling back again. And so we agreed to like, meet up and talk about what was going on. And he told me that he was feeling overwhelmed and he felt like he wasn't putting enough time in this relationship that he felt I deserved. And we cut it off again. And then I have a meal prep business and I was still selling him meals, but I wasn't seeing him. I would just drop him off at his work with the front desk lady for free. Oh, no, he was paying.

[Jaleel White]

Oh, she said he was selling.

[Unknown]

Okay, okay, I caught that.

[Jaleel White]

She said.

[Unknown]

Making sure.

[Jaleel White]

She said I was selling the meal. I caught that.

[Unknown]

Okay, just making sure there.

[Lauren]

Yeah. But one day I forgot to include something in one of his plates, so I ended up texting him and if he wanted to come by to pick it up, it was like a sauce or something. Anyways, he came to pick it up and then that started our communication again. And the following day he texted me asking if I wanted to go over and bake some cupcakes. And I know I shouldn't have said yes, but I did and I went over and this was a few weeks ago and we've been hanging out again pretty consistently. I'll go over while he's doing homework and we'll just like, watch movies or.

[Unknown]

Lauren, stop. Stop hanging out with him.

[Nick Viall]

So. So currently, where are we with this guy?

[Lauren]

We are not in a relationship. I would say to situationship.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

But yes, we are still talking, but it's pretty overwhelming because, like, the same thing could happen. I'm not like, I'm always anxious about, like, Is he seeing someone else? I really don't think he's seeing anyone else.

[Jaleel White]

But.

[Lauren]

But it could happen again because he would be like, oh, well, we're not together.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, I mean, he. He definitely could if he wanted to.

[Jaleel White]

On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being absolute fire when you hook up, is. Is it. Is it a 10?

[Lauren]

It's an 8.

[Nick Viall]

Oh, okay.

[Jaleel White]

Oh, wow.

[Unknown]

That's still pretty high.

[Jaleel White]

No, that's high.

[Unknown]

That's high.

[Jaleel White]

That's high.

[Unknown]

I feel like he is getting absolutely everything he wants and you're getting nothing that you want. There's no sense of compromise with this at all.

[Nick Viall]

So you called in when you, you said, I, I need help setting better boundaries with my ex, right? And a few minutes ago, you said something, you said after the confrontation, when he came back, you said, the only way I'm willing to do this when he says, like, I want to keep you in my life. And you said, we have to be in a relationship or at least be working towards something. And so boundaries aren't complicated. They're really simple, right? And so the real boundary was I need to be in a relationship if we want to keep this going. But the second part, the or, that wasn't a boundary. What is working towards something that's so vague. That's why he said yes, right? You gave him the out, right? And you kind of knew that your, your subconscious knew that, right? Because your real boundary was, we've been hooking up. You met my family. I don't want to lose you. Who says that to someone that they don't want to be boyfriend and girlfriends with? That's probably what you're thinking, right? But you were afraid he would say no to the relationship part, so you gave him the out. You gave him the or. You know, he's like, yeah, I can work towards something forever. You know, fuck, shit. You know, that's. No, you know, but let's make cupcakes. He's working towards a relationship. Well, let's go to. Let's go on a trip. I'm working towards a relationship. Let's hook up. I'm working towards a relationship.

[Unknown]

I don't want to see you for.

[Nick Viall]

A week working towards a relationship. You know, and so when you think about boundaries and you want to set something, ask yourself, am I, is this the real boundary or am I giving them an out? Because it shouldn't be that complicated. Boundaries aren't like a two part, three part process. It's a simple statement. I want this. I'm comfortable with that. I don't want that. You know, I. I want a relationship with you. If you want to keep hooking up with me, you need to commit. There's no or and there's no a three part thing. So that's the biggest thing that you have to take away. I hope that this call is that you have to figure out what your real boundaries are and you have to stick to them.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah, well, that's why I asked her about her, you know, what the connection was. What is. What is it about him that you are drawn to? Because there's some aspect of him that is. Is irresistible to you, and you got to be honest about what that is.

[Lauren]

So I feel like because I'm still living in my hometown, I'm living with my parents still, and everyone around me, all my best friends left recently, like within the last year. And I feel like deep down, I feel like it's probably because he's the only one still here. And I guess I just. Maybe it's company or. I mean, when I'm with him, I really do enjoy our time in our conversations. I really like that. He motivates me a lot.

[Unknown]

He's your safe space right now.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Jaleel White]

He feels. He feels familiar to you.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, he does. Just enough to be needed.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah. But. But on the. But on the flip side of that, though, just to let you know, like, single parents don't date. Like, like single parents, they prospect for a partner or they are trying to get some fun or some joy to tap back into their youth because they are genuinely overwhelmed. And I'm curious, is he a good dad?

[Lauren]

He is. I've never met his kids. I've never seen him with his kids. But I do see how much he does prioritize for them. He'll show me, like, oh, I did this for my kids. Or like, he'll talk about what he. Like how he spent his weekend with his kids. And so I do think he's a really good dad.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah. So you're confirming my suspicions and the fact that you haven't even met his kids. He's sensitive to another woman being introduced to his kids.

[Lauren]

One thing I forgot to mention, when he was seeing that other girl for that month, she told me that she went over to his house to work out and his son came out and she met him casually. But with me, like, I've never been able to go near his house when his kids are there.

[Unknown]

Was there ever a conversation when you were dating seriously of like, stepmother role?

[Nick Viall]

Oh, yeah. Like, what were his boundaries or expectations with. Yeah, With. For his kids. With you.

[Lauren]

He told me that he wouldn't feel comfortable introducing me to his kids until we had been in a relationship for a year.

[Jaleel White]

Okay.

[Nick Viall]

It's a weird.

[Unknown]

I mean, I guess a year, he feels like that's, you know.

[Nick Viall]

Well, I mean, there's like a. I mean, Jaleel is a. As a single parent, you know.

[Jaleel White]

No, not even.

[Unknown]

I'm married now.

[Nick Viall]

You're married. Oh, my bad.

[Jaleel White]

But let's clarify.

[Unknown]

He is married. Okay. He is married.

[Jaleel White]

No, but I was, so that's why I understand. There was a definitive moment for me where I just. I realized I was like, holy smokes. Like, I don't really want to interact with a woman that I'm not comfortable introducing to my daughter. And I would go through great lengths to keep those worlds separate and apart. And, you know, it just sounds to me like taking on the responsibility of building something new with her on top of two kids that he does not intend to abandon, which is commendable, is just too much for him, too much for his mind to take in, you know, I don't know, somebody's finances or anything like that. So that's why I'd be respectful of that. But it just sounds like that. And the slippage. I don't like the slippage. That the other girl met the kid. I don't like that. Like, that's like. Ah, that's just.

[Nick Viall]

There's something weird there.

[Unknown]

To me, he does not respect your boundaries, your wishes, what you want. He is, to me, sounds selfish.

[Jaleel White]

Selfish.

[Unknown]

And I think you are wasting your time. I mean, I know he feels familiar. I know you feel alone right now with all of your friends gone, and this is someone that you can have fun with and that you can make cupcakes with and that you can. Can have fun sex with, and you can go and do this and that, and that's fun and that's nice to have that person, but it's not fun to have that person when it's messing with your mental health. And you're constantly questioning yourself and you're lying to yourself about what this relationship is. I don't think he's ever gonna.

[Jaleel White]

No, he's not.

[Nick Viall]

No, not unless you change something. You would have to drastically change your behavior around him, because he's not. I mean, yeah, this is going to be some tough love. So I say this with love, but put it this way. You don't take your relationship with him seriously, so he doesn't either. Right. Because, I mean, you showed up with another woman at his front door and confronted him. And then two days or one day later, I don't know, same day you were forgiving him. And at that moment, it's just hard to take you seriously if he's going to be able. I mean, at that point, he knew he could pretty much get away with anything with you.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah, my. I. I have a greater issue, though, that I. I don't want her to repeat in her next relationship. What did you get out of contacting the woman, getting to know her and confronting him? Were you satisfied with the feeling that you got going that route?

[Lauren]

Honestly, I just felt like I didn't want him to tell me something and tell her something different. So I guess I just wanted clarity on the entire situation.

[Nick Viall]

That tells me that inside you don't trust this person.

[Lauren]

Yeah, I guess that's true.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah. Whenever you got to get all forensic like that, and you're more interested in getting to know the girl and going down that rabbit hole. When you find what you find now you gotta act on it. So you found what you found. He looked you both in the eyes and was like, oh, I could still do this with either one of them. And I'm just saying, I just. I think it's more important that you figure out for yourself. And I'd love to hear it with, what do you want? What do you. How do you envision your immediate future for yourself? And how would he fit into that?

[Lauren]

I mean, I guess the same thing. That guy would only want to stay in his life is we were in a relationship, but I.

[Jaleel White]

Do you want kids? Do you want family, too?

[Lauren]

I do.

[Jaleel White]

You see what I'm saying? It's just like, it's really easy to just float that out. Hey, a relationship, we can hang out, but. No, no, no. I mean, be specific with yourself. I am looking for a husband. I want to have a child soon. I want to build a family. I want to work. I want to, you know, if my husband needs help, I want to build it. Sounds like you're an entrepreneur. Like, you have a great business. You need to be partnering up with somebody that can help you further that business and get you closer to building a family of your own. But I don't hear you saying that. I hear you saying you're cool to kick it.

[Lauren]

Yeah, no, yes, I do. I am looking for a marriage and kids in the future.

[Nick Viall]

So I know you listen to this show and I'm sure you've heard me talk about situationship at great length. So it's like, my point is, I think you know better. Right? But my question to you is, as someone who deep down knows better, and you even said, I know I shouldn't have gone over, but I'm curious, like, why? Even though that you know better. You know, and it's one thing. It's one thing to make the mistake, but you're making this mistake at this point daily. I mean, at this point, every time you get on the phone with them, talk to them, hang out with them, have sex with them, there's a part of you knowing that you shouldn't do this. But why are you, you know, other than feeling a little lonely, and I know your friends have moved, but, you know, nevertheless, you're still kind of emotionally torturing yourself. Why are you choosing to do this as someone who knows deep down, everything that we're saying to you?

[Lauren]

Honestly, I do not know. Because the entire day where we not talking, I tell myself, no, I cannot keep doing this. I deserve better. And then as soon as he reaches out, I'm like, want to hang out? I'm like, yes, right away, like, without even thinking. And I go.

[Unknown]

It hits a weak spot. I was there with Nick. I mean, we 10 months off and on, and I constantly was like, I want to date you. And he said no. And I kept hanging out with him. I kept having sex with him. I kept building my feelings for him while I knew he had no interest in being serious with me. So eventually it did come to that point where I had to talk to myself and say, I'm. If I continue with this relationship, I'm only hurting myself. I have to get out of it. And so I went to Nick and I said, I'm done. If you're not going to commit to me, I'm not doing this anymore. And I meant it. And as soon as I went away, he came calling. Now, I'm not saying that's like, what this guy's going to do because clearly, you know, he has the kids and a lot of other things going on.

[Lauren]

But.

[Unknown]

But I think you really have to stick to what you want and not fall as soon as he texts you.

[Jaleel White]

I would say you need to block him.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Jaleel White]

Because sometimes when you don't have the strength to say no, then it's just. I've had to do that where it's just like, well, if you just block, then you don't know when the other person has contacted you. And then you become the other person that's the weak person. If you reach out to them and you know they've been blocked for the Last two months. So that means, realistically, they might have reached out to you and you look them off. So why would you do that to somebody? You see what I'm saying? It's like somehow blocking on the phone, like, actually gives you the strength to say, hey, I've gone a month, I've gone two months, I've gone three months. All right, I'm moving on. That's just what I would say. It feels very familiar and safe and it, like it's taking. It's helping you deal with some aspect of loneliness that, that you. That you like.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, it's a lot easier to go to the grocery store and not buy the Oreos than to buy the Oreos and then try not to eat the Oreos when they're out. Exactly. Every time Natalie buys the Oreos, I'm like, man, like 10 o'clock. All of these Oreos, I only. I need Will. But to Leo's point, it's going to be difficult you to block them, but it just, it takes one moment of strength just to block them.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And just. And then you have to delete his number. You know, you got to block him on everything. But every. Like you, you know, when that Oreo shows up, when, you know, when I have that craving, I smoke a little weed.

[Jaleel White]

We'll take out a whole sleeve.

[Nick Viall]

We have milk too. Like, oh, shit. You know that. That's you. That's him. That's him reaching out. You're like, yes. And at this point, he kind of knows when to reach out. He can sense it. And, yeah, he's reaching out. When you're, you know, you could use a little company. You can use a little affection, you can use a little, like, love, you know, and it's just like. It's like, it's. It's so hard for you. So you gotta make it easy on yourself to not eat the Oreos, so to speak. You know, so you gotta.

[Jaleel White]

Souls attach. I don't think people really respect that enough. Like, souls attach. Like when you. When you form with somebody, you can. There's an actual spiritual connection that happens between the two of. And I think whether you want to say you're in a relationship situationship, boyfriend and girlfriend do the whole roller coaster thing, your souls are attached. And until you block and you go months and months at a time where you live differently, you're not going to actively detach.

[Lauren]

Yeah. So I know you're saying just to block him, and I will, but I don't know, I feel like for me, personally, I would And I know you would be against this to have at least one conversation ending things and just wouldn't know what to say.

[Unknown]

Are you only wanting to reach out to end things? To see if he will change his mind? Lauren.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, if you want to give him one. Listen, if you want to give them one more, like, I'm. You know, I'm done.

[Unknown]

I'm.

[Nick Viall]

I'm done. Like, this is enough. I. You don't need to see him in person. You don't need to have a conversation. There's. You don't have to think of a magic thing to say.

[Unknown]

I think I did it. We did it over text.

[Nick Viall]

You can send him a text and being like. Like, you know, I'm just letting you know we've worked long enough towards a relationship. If you're not actually serious about committing to me and being my partner and being my boyfriend today, then I'm done with this.

[Jaleel White]

I got a. I got a simpler question for you to text it. Ooh, I have simpler question. Cause there's something that you've. Nobody here wants to really continue to address. Do you see me at any point soon as the stepmother to your kids?

[Unknown]

Damn.

[Lauren]

That is a good question.

[Jaleel White]

You ask him that. And if you don't get a fire answer, quick step, because those kids are in front of you. I'm telling you straight up as far as line order. Those kids are in front of you. So if you can't be a part of what those kids are and you don't want to be a part of the. Maybe you want to be a part of what those kids are. I'm not ruling that out. But you got to ask him point blank. Do you see anytime soon being stepmother to your kids, if you get a big novel back, a bunch of stuff to unpack this, that, and the other. It is what it is. You know, you want to go. You want to go to the movies, you want to have some fun, because you just feeling that kind of way. All right? But don't expect anything from that guy. And understand that guy is blocking other guys who might have an eye on you that you're not recognizing because you're blinded by what you have with him, period.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lauren]

And I agree because, I mean, I will get asked out, but then I'm like, I feel like I don't want.

[Jaleel White]

Oh, I already knew. She a lovely girl. They shooting? They shot. Your DMs is packed, ain't they?

[Unknown]

They packed and you're saying you're guilty. Yeah, but he's not doing the Same.

[Nick Viall]

Oh no, you know, it really, you know, it really me up when Natalie was like, I'm out. And she was like, out. And I, I. And I was like, text her. And I was like, what are you doing? She's like, I'm going on a date. And then she didn't answer the call.

[Jaleel White]

The rest of the night.

[Nick Viall]

What's the biggest mistake ladies will make is thinking that men will get upse upset, especially in situationships like if you're not, you know, they will not like you if you tell them that you're dating other men. That is honestly the opposite. They will, they will lose their mind. Like, what you should be doing is going on all these dates and then when you ask what you're up to, you tell them, I'm going on a date. Tell them the truth.

[Unknown]

Because at the end of the day and if they want to get upset, you can be like, cool, you can get upset, but you don't want to date me. And I, I'm seeing other people who might want to. So, like, if you have a problem with this, then, like, we can figure that out and maybe we can date, but we're not going to just keep playing this game and I'm only going to see you. But you're not going to date me.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, I literally, like in my book. I don't know if you read it.

[Lauren]

No, I have.

[Nick Viall]

You have? You have. Okay. My God. Then open chapter. Open. Well, then fuck. What the fuck? Not closely enough. Open chapter two. Jaleel has the best advice. I mean, honestly, this guy doesn't sound very promising. He doesn't take you very seriously, and I think blocking him is probably the best solution. But if you have the strength and you go back, you know, respond, go on a date, start dating other men. You. You are a single woman, and I want you to remember that because you're not in a relationship. So therefore you are single and you have the same freedoms he has. So plan a date. And eventually this, you know, do it soon because I don't want you guys, I don't want you emotionally invest this guy for much longer. And literally there's a step by step of what you should do. When he reaches out to you and he asks, what are you doing tonight? And you should say, I'm going on a date. And then he's going to get all like, flustered. He's going to pretend he doesn't care. He's going, oh, that's cool. Tell me about it. Like, what's up? You know, and then you just Go away. You go on that date anyways. It's in the book. You should read it. It's a very. It's laid out what you should do. And honestly, if that doesn't work, it. Nothing will. If he doesn't lose his. And, well, what the fuck am I doing? Like, I'm. If he doesn't wake up and realize he could lose something special, then he's, he's never, he's never going to come around. He just won't. And then you should definitely, at that point, move on and block him.

[Lauren]

Yeah, I agree. I feel like I know all this. I listen to you every week and I've read your book and I know these things. But then that moment comes. I'm like, okay, yeah, I, like, lose everything.

[Nick Viall]

And this is getting tough love. And it's meant to sting a little bit, but like, like, he. He doesn't take you seriously.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Do you want him to?

[Lauren]

I do.

[Nick Viall]

But then you have, you have. I mean, but you're not taking yourself seriously. I mean, that's. You're. You're an adult, like Jalil said, a beautiful woman, you guys reaching out to you. You got your own business. But like, every step of the way, you know what you should do and you do the opposite. So why should he treat you any different than you're treating yourself?

[Lauren]

Yeah, I see that.

[Jaleel White]

The most precious thing you have in your life is your time. And until you learn certain lessons, God just kind of makes you keep repeating them. So that's why you're literally on a hamster wheel. I just would prefer you look at it that way as opposed to just the loving feelings that you clearly have for him, though. But respect the fact that you're on a hamster wheel. And I would just think that a woman who has her own meal prep business. You seem like a lovely gal. You would want to get off the hamster wheel and start the progress of Lauren again.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Jaleel White]

And that's. He's intentionally, you do understand it, holding up that process because it's convenient for him with work and the two kids in the school and et cetera, et cetera. It's like, oh, man. But I got this thing on the side. It makes me feel good. And it's like, ah, but that's not fair to your growth. But you gotta want that. And that's not his fault. You gotta want that.

[Lauren]

Yeah, yeah. No, yeah. And I, I can see it. And I, I always look back to this quote you said that you're like, this is childish and I'M tired of being childish with you. And it's true. Like, this back and forth is childish.

[Unknown]

Challenge yourself the next time you don't reach out, the next time he does. You challenge yourself to either respond with whichever resonated with you best, whether it's the date thing, whether it's the I'm. These are my boundaries, and I'm sticking to them. I'm out if you're not in or we block him immediately. You can do it.

[Nick Viall]

More than anything, please just start dating.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

You know, say yes. Just give it a shot. And have low expectations. You're going to meet a plenty of frogs, you know, like, you don't want to. You know, don't compare them to him, like. But just get out there and act like the single woman that you are and then realize that your excuse that you gave us a few minutes ago as to why you always say yes, because you're a little lonely. All your friends move. You're not as lonely as you're acting because clearly you are getting attention from people. You still have friends. It might be an adjustment. You're just very comfortable with this situation that you have, and it's been good enough just to keep it around. But it's clearly making you very sad. It's bothering you. It makes you a lot more sad than it makes you happy. It's that he's that Sour patch kid, you know what I'm saying? Like, it feels good. Like, you put it in your mouth, but you always feel shitty after you binge in a bunch of sugar. Like, you always feel shittier after you hang out with this guy and he rejects you.

[Jaleel White]

You're at such an amazing age. I just want to let you know that, like, I'm. I'm almost double your age. So you're like, you're. You're at such. When I think about, oh, my gosh, the age that you are, there's like two and three and four more journeys in front of you. So all I'm trying to do is nudge you, all of us, to get on with that journey because you. Oh, you just look so lovely. Seriously, just go date somebody.

[Lauren]

Go date somebody. Oh, yeah, I'm excited. I've only started this business a few months, and I'm excited to meet more people and go on dates.

[Nick Viall]

Well, that's good. And because you started this business three months ago, and I say this to a lot of people in your position, your energy and time is not infinite, and you are treating it like it is. And so all this energy, even like, listen, we're grateful you're calling it. It was great to meet you, but right now, instead of talking to us, you could be focusing on your business. You could be focusing on far more other productive things, and you're not getting that time back. And you are wasting a lot of energy and time on this guy who doesn't deserve it, isn't asking for it, and it's cost. There's a. There's a cost to it. You know, you're gonna be. You'll be fine. You'll get over this. But you will, I promise. You look back on this guy in this relationship and get a little upset with yourself about how much energy and time you gave him. You. You've hung out with him enough. He knows you well enough. If he really wants to be with you, you walking away and starting to date other people will do the trick. And if that doesn't do the trick, nothing was going to.

[Jaleel White]

He got to test that, by the way, anyway, you know I'm telling the truth. So, like, if you start dating other people, he's going to test that.

[Lauren]

Just let, you know, need to block him, because there we go.

[Nick Viall]

That's what I'm saying. But to be clear, if he does. And, like, you know, again, we. Natalie and I are very open about this story and how we hung out for nine, 10 months before we became boyfriend and girlfriend, but she played it right. And not like. And then I wasn't testing her, but, like, I freaked out. And when I. I was like, what the fuck am I doing? You know? And I had a lot of my reasons why I didn't want to. I was insecure about her age gap and yada, yada, yada. But, you know, when I did, I was like, all right, let's do this. You know, so he's got a. He's got to storm the castle. He can't be like, no, let's try. What does try mean? You know, it's not like, well, let's, let's. Let's take it slow. He needs to want to be your boyfriend. He needs to want to. He needs to be sorry for almost losing you. It needs to be. He needs to beg for you to be his boyfriend. And if he's not willing to do that, then he's just not taking it seriously because he is just like Jalil said, he's not going to let you go easily. He very much enjoys what he has with you, but it's all at his convenience and on his time. He gets a lot from it. And he is not sad when he's not with you. He's very much in control of this relationship.

[Jaleel White]

Can I ask how old he is?

[Nick Viall]

Good question.

[Lauren]

He's 31.

[Jaleel White]

Okay. Yeah. So two kids, 31. You're. I'm saying this respectfully. Very attractive young lady. You're younger than him. Honey, he's out kicking his coverage.

[Unknown]

Go find someone with no kids.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah, he is.

[Unknown]

No kids, no past marriage. Start fresh with somebody.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah, like the. Only. If you were to get involved, a woman your age with a guy with kids, he should be in a position to want to wife you up or take things up to the next level, because it's nothing for him to do that if he sees something special in you. My man is getting a discount for outkicking his coverage right now. I'm just telling you.

[Lauren]

Yeah, yeah. He wants companionship with no.

[Nick Viall]

No responsibility, no expectations.

[Jaleel White]

And it sucks because it sounds like he's getting a blessing in you and he's looking it off.

[Lauren]

Yeah, because I haven't heard you.

[Jaleel White]

I haven't heard you say you're not interested in being a mom. But listen to Natalie. Try to stay away from the ones that do have kids unless they come at you super correct right from the gate.

[Lauren]

Yeah, I think.

[Unknown]

You know what, you want to give.

[Jaleel White]

Us a. Yeah, send us all the email, man. We want to come back.

[Nick Viall]

Go read chapter two and then go read chapter ten.

[Lauren]

I will. Thank you guys so much.

[Jaleel White]

All right, all right, all right. Nice to meet you.

[Nick Viall]

You can do this. You're gonna. You're gonna get through this. But just help me strong. I want you to get mad about how much energy you're wasting about this guy. You gotta. It's gotta piss you off at some point. I'm assuming that, you know. You know, you eventually, you have to have. It's gotta drive you crazy.

[Lauren]

I'm almost reaching that point.

[Nick Viall]

All right, well, good luck. Let us know what happens. We definitely want an update.

[Lauren]

I will. Thank you guys so much.

[Nick Viall]

Take care.

[Jaleel White]

Take care.

[Lauren]

Thank you. Likewise.

[Jaleel White]

She was sweet. She was very sweet.

[Nick Viall]

That was a great, great point about men with kids. Don't date. Yeah, well, it makes a lot of. You know, you don't have the time to fuck around, you know? You know, if you're around, you're definitely not taking it seriously.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah. You know, it's just when you have a child, man, things get real fast. They really do. And nothing will make you feel like you're. You're losing your youth faster than having the responsibilities of a child. And any Separation that's associated with that. So you want to. You want to jump out there, but you also have to be able to recognize when you have a person that's down to be a partner. So that's why I ended up getting married. It's just like, I started recognizing looking at things with my heart instead of my eyes. And I was like, yo, this woman is. She's down to be a partner.

[Nick Viall]

You enjoy being a husband.

[Jaleel White]

I love it, man. I gotta be honest with you. I love it. It's getting better. I mean, you go through weird stuff, you know, she says I snore too much. I believe that. The story thing is, like. So I had no idea. It's because I had no idea how many men deal with this issue with women and snoring like, this is an epidemic.

[Nick Viall]

Have you kind of looked at this story?

[Jaleel White]

Yeah, no, I've actually seen doctors about it and everything. But it's weird because it's like, I'm not a bad snorer either. I'm not. And I do know that. So I'm like, I do have a small degree of sleep apnea. I'm on the low, on the mild end. And she has these. Her senses, though, are insane. Like, I can walk into the room at night, and she's like, did you just have chocolate and peanut butter? She could smell that shit from the bed on my breath. So I'm dealing with a woman with these weird acute senses, right? So I could just know. And it's like, oh. Oh, my God. And she. She hears that, and I'm like, how did you ever live in New York? How did you go to sleep in New York?

[Nick Viall]

Work.

[Jaleel White]

And meanwhile, why did you ever bring this crap up in the first two years when we dated anyway? Right? That's the trick y'all play on us.

[Unknown]

That's fine. It's fine. Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Shut the.

[Jaleel White]

But I. I don't know. It's my. My. My lady comes from a really good family, and so I really connect with her father.

[Unknown]

I love her name.

[Jaleel White]

And her mother, Nicolette. Love it. Beautiful. Thank you. She just comes from a really good family, and I really connect with her mother and her father. So when I look at her mother and her father, I kind of see a lot of aspects of our own relationship, and I'd never. I'd never experienced that before.

[Nick Viall]

Jaleel, it's been a pleasure, man. I wish we could keep talking, but I know you got a guy. Yeah.

[Jaleel White]

You know, at some point, you know, they're just. The parking meter is going to run out.

[Nick Viall]

It's really been fascinating. I really enjoyed it. I really appreciate the opportunity. The book is called Growing Up Urkel. When does it come out?

[Jaleel White]

November 19th. But pre orders matter. Get them now.

[Nick Viall]

Pre orders now. You can pre order wherever you get your books. Is there an audio version for your dyslexic people out there?

[Jaleel White]

Listen, I actually recorded my own book. I did the audio.

[Nick Viall]

Not a nightmare.

[Jaleel White]

I did the audio. I enjoyed it. That's the actor in me. So I enjoyed it. And don't forget, I'm the voice of Sonic the Hedgehog. So I've been in booths for many, many hours.

[Nick Viall]

You're the voice of Sonic the Hedgehog?

[Jaleel White]

Yeah, I did. I was the original voice for Sonic the Hedgehog. Sonic the Underground. The Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog.

[Nick Viall]

That.

[Unknown]

Oh my God.

[Jaleel White]

Yeah, I've done incredible. I've done over 100 episodes of Sonic.

[Unknown]

Duh.

[Jaleel White]

Way past cool. So good.

[Nick Viall]

Incredible. Well, get the book now. Pre order it now. It's a very fascinating book. So many incredible stories that will blow your mind. Check it out. Jaleel, really appreciate your time.

[Jaleel White]

Thank you, man. Thank you for having me, man.

[Nick Viall]

Thank you guys for listening. Don't forget to send in those questions at Ask nick@the val files.com. we'll see you tomorrow by hot this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Whether you love true crime or comedy, celebrity interviews or news, you call the shots on what's in your podcast queue. And guess what? Now you can call them on your auto insurance too. With the name your price tool from progressing. It works just the way it sounds. You tell Progressive how much you want to pay for your car insurance and they'll show you coverage options that fit your budget. Get your quote [e-mail] and join over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law now at T Mobile get four 5G phones on us and four lines for $25 a line per month when you switch with eligible trade ins. All on America's largest 5G network.

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[Nick Viall]

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