E860 Going Deeper with Nick and Sandy - The Ultimatum

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Viall Files – Episode E860 Going Deeper with Nick and Sandy - The Ultimatum

Release Date: December 26, 2024

Hosts: Nick Viall, Natalie Joy, and the Household

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Introduction

In episode E860 of The Viall Files, host Nick Viall reunites with Sandy to delve deep into their tumultuous relationship as portrayed on the reality TV show The Ultimatum. This candid discussion aims to clarify misunderstandings, address the edited narratives viewers received, and explore the personal growth both individuals have undergone since their public breakup.

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Reuniting and Setting the Stage [01:02 – 03:09]

The episode begins with a warm welcome as Nick and Sandy take their seats alongside the hosts. Sandy expresses her gratitude for the opportunity to speak openly about their experience:

Sandy [02:15]: "I'm a big fan. I love you guys. I've been listening to your podcast for a year."

Nick acknowledges the challenges they've faced since the show aired, noting that they've each been in different places emotionally and mentally.

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Addressing the Portrayal on The Ultimatum [03:13 – 07:09]

One of the primary focuses is how their relationship was represented on television. Nick points out that the show provided a skewed perspective, capturing only moments in time without the full context of their interactions:

Nick [03:38]: "It's a struggle to go through what we went through and then have so many opinions get thrown around that are not based on true life interactions with either of us."

Sandy concurs, emphasizing that while reality shows aim to provoke drama, much of what viewers saw was an edited version that didn't reflect the true depth of their connection:

Sandy [05:07]: "But to your point, Natalie, I actually, like, we have leaned on each other through this because we... it's a really weird thing to go through, and it's hard."

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Emotional Turmoil and Coping Mechanisms [07:06 – 09:58]

Nick opens up about his challenges with alcohol during and after the show, using it as a means to cope with the emotional strain:

Nick [07:06]: "More of this, less of what the other stuff I was drinking. Yeah, I would say... I was having a very difficult time being in my apartment..."

Sandy reflects on her own struggles with frustration and empathy, acknowledging areas where she could have handled situations better:

Sandy [09:19]: "I normally am not the type of person that's like, oh, I regret something... there's a lot of things that I would just do differently."

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Miscommunication and Edited Narratives [10:45 – 15:00]

The conversation delves into specific moments from the show where miscommunication led to misunderstandings. Nick and Sandy discuss instances where their genuine interactions were misrepresented, leading viewers to draw incorrect conclusions about their relationship dynamics.

Nick [11:03]: "I signed up. I signed on the dotted line for us to break up... I walked into Scotty and JR having a conversation about Sandy that wasn't about me."

Sandy clarifies misunderstandings regarding interactions with other cast members, particularly Junior, stressing that nothing beyond a kiss occurred:

Sandy [80:24]: "No. Absolutely not. I will set the record straight right here, right now. Literally nothing happened past a kiss with me and Junior."

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Alcohol, Substance Abuse, and Recovery [07:38 – 23:50]

Nick candidly discusses his reliance on alcohol as a coping mechanism and the steps he's taken towards recovery. He acknowledges the negative impact his behavior had on both himself and Sandy:

Nick [08:55]: "I was using alcohol and coping through numbing skills that were not healthy... I never recognized it as something that I really needed to get help with."

Sandy highlights the complexities of supporting a partner struggling with substance abuse, especially when their coping mechanisms differ:

Sandy [74:40]: "It's really hard to navigate."

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Relationship Compatibility and Differences [23:50 – 47:15]

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the inherent differences between Nick and Sandy. They explore how their divergent lifestyles, communication styles, and social needs contributed to the strain on their relationship.

Nick [41:08]: "I was just in my own... I was moving into whatever situation..."

Sandy [42:29]: "I am big on quality time. I'm big on physical touch."

They both recognize that while their love was genuine, their compatibility in day-to-day activities and emotional needs was lacking.

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Interactions with Other Cast Members and Misconceptions [47:15 – 86:43]

The episode addresses interactions with other participants on The Ultimatum, particularly how these interactions were perceived versus the reality. Nick and Sandy clarify that despite appearances, their commitment to each other remained steadfast, and any flirtatious behavior from others was either misinterpreted or edited for dramatic effect.

Nick [52:29]: "It was very unbothered to me because I'm like, okay, is, you know, does this not freak you out?"

Sandy [80:24]: "No. Absolutely not."

They discuss the challenges of maintaining authenticity in a reality TV environment, where actions are often magnified and misunderstood.

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Personal Growth and Moving Forward [86:43 – End]

As the episode concludes, both Nick and Sandy reflect on the personal growth they've achieved since their public breakup. Nick speaks about his ongoing journey with sobriety and developing healthier coping mechanisms, while Sandy emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and setting healthy boundaries.

Nick [87:14]: "I've never recognized it as something that I really needed to get help with."

Sandy [89:43]: "It's a really crazy thing that we went through, and I feel like it kind of brought out the worst in all of it, but, like, for us to be able to come together and do this, I mean, I think it says a lot."

They both express hope for the future, emphasizing mutual respect and the desire to continue personal development outside the confines of their past relationship.

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Notable Quotes

• Nick [03:38]: "It's a struggle to go through what we went through and then have so many opinions get thrown around that are not based on true life interactions with either of us."

• Sandy [09:19]: "I normally am not the type of person that's like, oh, I regret something... there's a lot of things that I would just do differently."

• Nick [07:06]: "More of this, less of what the other stuff I was drinking. Yeah, I would say... I was having a very difficult time being in my apartment..."

• Sandy [42:29]: "I am big on quality time. I'm big on physical touch."

• Nick [87:14]: "I've never recognized it as something that I really needed to get help with."

• Sandy [89:43]: "It's a really crazy thing that we went through, and I feel like it kind of brought out the worst in all of it, but, like, for us to be able to come together and do this, I mean, I think it says a lot."

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Conclusion

In this heartfelt and insightful episode, Nick Viall and Sandy provide listeners with an unfiltered look into the complexities of their relationship as shaped by reality television. They address misconceptions, discuss personal struggles, and share lessons learned, offering a narrative of growth and resilience. Their honest conversation serves as a valuable resource for listeners navigating their own relationship challenges, highlighting the importance of communication, empathy, and self-awareness.

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Key Takeaways

• Authenticity vs. Editing: Reality TV often presents a fragmented and edited version of real-life relationships, leading to misunderstandings among viewers.

• Coping Mechanisms: Relying on substances like alcohol can exacerbate relationship issues and hinder personal growth.

• Communication is Crucial: Effective and honest communication is vital for maintaining a healthy relationship, especially during challenging times.

• Personal Growth: Both individuals emphasize the importance of self-reflection and seeking support to overcome personal struggles.

• Compatibility Matters: Genuine love does not always equate to compatibility in lifestyles, emotional needs, and communication styles.

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For those interested in exploring more about Nick and Sandy’s journey, episodes like E860 of The Viall Files offer a deep dive into the real stories behind reality TV portrayals.

Transcript

[Sandy]

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[Natalie]

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[Sandy]

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[Host]

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[Nick]

You're crazy.

[Host]

Nick, nice to meet you.

[Sandy]

Hi, Natalie. Welcome.

[Host]

Well, you're the first one here, so you get to pick which seat you want.

[Natalie]

How are you, Nick?

[Nick]

Good, good.

[Natalie]

Happy to have you.

[Nick]

Thank you. Appreciate you guys having me.

[Host]

On a scale of 1 to 10, are you nervous to do this? Excited to do this?

[Nick]

No, I think the nerves are through and pass. Yeah, it was a wild ride. I mean, it's been some time, so I think that we're all in different places now.

[Host]

Well, here we get to finally set the record straight.

[Nick]

We will dig into it. I can hear it.

[Host]

I don't know what to expect. I'm excited.

[Nick]

I mean, I didn't know what to expect either.

[Host]

Well, I'm glad you're here, man.

[Nick]

Me too.

[Sandy]

And I'm glad you're doing better.

[Nick]

It'd be hard to be doing worse, I suppose, than that experience for sure.

[Sandy]

Hi, welcome.

[Nick]

Hi.

[Host]

How are you?

[Natalie]

You are gonna be right by me.

[Host]

You're right there. Hi, how are you?

[Natalie]

So good to meet you.

[Sandy]

I'm a big fan. I love you guys. I've been listening to your podcast for a year.

[Host]

We love that. Yay.

[Natalie]

Well, that's good.

[Host]

Document this hug. We're gonna be fighting soon. I'm kidding.

[Sandy]

I know, I know. I don't blame you.

[Natalie]

No, no, no. We don't hate you. We don't love everything we saw on an edited show. So, like.

[Sandy]

No, it's okay. Neither do I. Guys. I do not blame y'all.

[Host]

Hi.

[Nick]

Hi.

[Sandy]

How are you?

[Host]

Good.

[Nick]

How are you?

[Sandy]

Good.

[Nick]

Good to see You.

[Sandy]

I know. Good to see you.

[Natalie]

You okay?

[Nick]

Thanks.

[Sandy]

Well, all same. I like it.

[Natalie]

He dressed up for the occasion.

[Sandy]

Yeah.

[Host]

Hi.

[Sandy]

Hi.

[Host]

Nick and Sandy reunite.

[Sandy]

Yes.

[Host]

On a scale of 1 to 10, what's your guys anxiety level right now?

[Sandy]

Before this it was a 10. Right now I feel actually pretty calm.

[Host]

Okay.

[Sandy]

Yeah, could have been worse. I feel like it's a good energy in here and it's. I mean, it's nice being, you know, seeing Nick. So I feel pretty calm right now. We'll see in like five minutes.

[Natalie]

Okay. When we dig a little deeper.

[Sandy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

I mean, I think being with humans is a lot easier than being with social media.

[Host]

How have you been handling.

[Sandy]

How's our heart?

[Host]

Yeah, how is your heart? Yeah. Thank you, Sandy. She's trying to get brownie points before we really get started.

[Sandy]

No, I was like waiting for you to ask. Truly?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

Why didn't you ask?

[Host]

Yeah, we haven't really asked it a ton lately, but. How is your heart?

[Sandy]

It's. It's been better. It's been better for sure.

[Host]

How's your heart, Nick?

[Nick]

It's a struggle to. To go through what we went through and then have so many opinions get thrown around that, you know, are not based on true life interactions with either of us. And when you.

[Host]

What do you mean by true life interactions?

[Nick]

I think that, you know, the show gives a perspective on a moment in time that we were dealing with, which was tremendously difficult. And as far as my social media experience prior to this, it was pretty much purely based on work. It wasn't personal.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So I never had. I never opened my phone to people making comments about myself or Sandy or any of the other people that went through this with us. So it's challenging to not take it personally and kind of ground yourself through, you know, the, the fact that this is through a lens that other people are witnessing and just try to stay truthful with what we know to be.

[Host]

And are you, are you staying offline though, or are you actually going on and seeing what people think?

[Nick]

I would say that in the beginning I was definitely paying a little bit more attention and I recognized for my mental sanity that, you know, it's not.

[Natalie]

I can imagine it must also be hard because it's like the one person that you would talk to, you know, who went through this with you and who knows you, you're broken up, so it's like you can't really talk to that person. So it's like there is no really safe space.

[Host]

When did you guys film the reun.

[Sandy]

About a month ago.

[Host]

About a month ago, yeah. Okay.

[Sandy]

Yeah.

[Host]

And that was the last time you guys saw each other in person.

[Sandy]

Last time I saw him in person. But I will say we've actually been, like, good supports for each other through all of this. Like, Nick and I, we would not be sitting here together if we didn't still, like, care about each other and love each other as humans. And so to your point, Natalie, I actually, like, we have leaned on each other through this because we. It's so weird. I mean, you know, you've been in on reality shows. Like, people don't understand unless you've gone through it. And then throw in our real life relationship, real life issues that we truly struggled with, and now they're just, like, all over the TV for the entire world to judge. It's a really weird thing to go through, and it's hard. But I do think that we've shown up for each other throughout this process, you know, as best as we can, because we are broken up. Right?

[Nick]

So, yeah. I mean, even though we're broken up, I still have so much care and gratitude for the experiences we had prior to the show. And there's a reason we were so connected on so many levels. And I think for me, I'm in a bit of a. I go, I don't want to see or hear anything negative towards her. I mean, she had her experience, I had my experience. But for me, I feel very protective of her when it comes to people saying things that are way outside of who her actual character is. It doesn't feel good for me. You know, I think that what a lot of people are seeing is the end of a real relationship. And, you know, the experience provided a, you know, a rapid departure for the relationship. And it wasn't the healthiest way for us to move apart, but, well, there's.

[Host]

I don't know if there's any healthy way to break up. Certainly went out with a bang. You know, there's that. What is both of yours. One biggest regret in terms of your conduct on the show without blaming editing, without, like, just like something that you watched back and you were like, did not love that I did that. I wish I would have done that differently.

[Sandy]

I can only pick one.

[Host]

You can pick multiple. But I'd love to.

[Sandy]

I'm like, there's lots.

[Host]

It's like, we have a lot of questions, a lot of things we want to cover. But I am curious, you know, before we, like, lay in or just be like, why the did you guys do this? I'm just curious off the bat if that was more like. I definitely did not love how I handled myself that way.

[Nick]

More of this, less of what the other stuff I was drinking. Yeah, I would say, you know, it's. It's pretty clear.

[Host]

I think it wasn't clear, I'll be honest.

[Natalie]

Yeah, it wasn't.

[Host]

Were you drinking a lot of alcohol?

[Nick]

Yeah, I wasn't sleeping, you know, I was having a very difficult time being in my apartment, and it just kind of tallied up and tallied up and tallied up. And I was. I was far more emotionally volatile or reactive than I would ever want to show up for somebody that I care for. No matter how crazy the experience was. It's not. I don't feel that I showed up with my true, authentic self. And I think that's just. That's hard to. That's hard to digest in any scenario, especially when you have to watch it on.

[Natalie]

Is that something you struggled with beforehand or did kind of, you know, it help you through the show?

[Nick]

So I've had my ebbs and flows with it. I think that I recognized through the experience that I needed to take a harder look at it.

[Host]

Okay.

[Nick]

It had been something that came up in our relationship prior and that I would go, you know, I would sometimes feel like I had it together and then sometimes I would dip back into it. And I don't think that I was getting the kind of mental health support and system, and I wasn't putting the right structure in place for me to not use things to escape.

[Host]

Well, I mean, when it comes to doing reality tv, if you go into that experience using any substances, a coping mechanism, chances are that will only increase, not decrease, because those spaces, they don't have support systems. It's all about putting you on an emotional island and seeing how you react. You know, that's kind of what all these experiments are. So there. Yeah, there is that. What about you?

[Sandy]

You know, there's a lot, like, I normally am not the type of person that's like, oh, I regret something, because there are learning lessons through everything, truly. And there have been a lot of learning lessons through this. But I can't lie when I say, like, there's a lot of things that I would just do differently, truly. I think if I can pinpoint one of them, it would probably just be my overall, like, attitude and kind of my frustrations that I was holding on to, towards Nick through. Through the process and just like me not really considering what he was going through because it's very clear to everybody Else, of course, it's very.

[Host]

You know, it did seem like you lacked the appropriate amount of empathy.

[Sandy]

Right, Right. And I. I see that now. And in the moment, you guys, like, I'm. It, like, it's so hard to see other people's experience because it's so intense for yourself. And it was really, really intense. And there's a lot of things that happen that we don't see in regards to me and Nick and kind of what we're talking about here, that made it just worse and worse and worse. And. Yeah, I mean, it just. I think it just got out of hand, but that's definitely something for me because I truly. I mean, I care about this man so much, and our love has never been the issue. Like, it's never been a problem for us. And it really is hard for me to watch because it just looks like I don't give a shit, you know, when really I was just hurting myself.

[Host]

I mean, can you. Are you able to elaborate, Nick? Just because. Be honest, I felt like. I don't know, were you protected by the edit or not? But. But watching it back, I mean, as a viewer, it was like, why is Nick apologizing constantly to this woman? And why is. For what, what appeared to be no.

[Nick]

Reason I agreed to do this experience, right? Like, I signed up. I signed on the dotted line for us to break up. I was. We were in a place where I think this actually. Had it been a healthier setting for both of us, we would have gotten a healthier answer, but probably would have arrived at the same point. You know, I think we were trying to find the next thing to either bring us absolutely together forever or break up. And I went into it, I would say maybe a little flippant and arrogant, that it would be fun, and, you know, we would kind of laugh about the experience and come back in this loving, oh, my God, I missed you, and how could we do this? And obviously, that didn't go down the way that I thought. And so I spun out. I was very emotional and being alone through that. I was basically, I would say I was contacting Sandy to the point where it was. It had to be uncomfortable for her to be dealing with that. I was not in a grounded place. Yeah, I was texting and calling incessantly and not, you know, not knowing what to do when I look back now, should I have left? Maybe. Maybe. So. At that point, I was committed to trying to get through the pain, to experience our time together. And I look at it and see a very.

[Host]

I mean, did you say anything? Like, crazy. I'm watching it and being like. I consider myself to be pretty chill and not jealous and I'm very emotionally regulated. But if, like, my girlfriend was, you know, living above me with another dude and again, I'd love your commentary, but it seemingly looked like you were being dismissed constantly. I don't know how I would handle it if my girlfriend was telling me to fuck off. Kind of. It just seemed kind of similar.

[Sandy]

There's just so much that, that you guys. That nobody sees, obviously.

[Host]

What are we not seeing?

[Nick]

So I was essentially an absent boyfriend moving into the show. Right. I was, I was unsure about if we were going to be. If she was going to be able to meet me where I wanted to go. And that's probably not the, you know, Sandy was in a position in her life where she's excited about LA kind of culture. Like, she's immersed in a culture that I've kind of been a part of for a long time and was trying to pull back from. And I think we were. I've said this multiple times, but we, we arrived at the same destination at different times. And I think that I was pretty cut off from what she needed for me emotionally moving into the show.

[Host]

How'd you guys end up on the show? Because that's another thing that was like, hard, hard to watch because there was a lot of, like, you being like, you brought me here.

[Sandy]

Right. Which he wanted to do it.

[Host]

Okay. Did you not want to?

[Sandy]

I mean, I was open to doing it, like, but I originally said no.

[Host]

Okay.

[Sandy]

I got reached out to. And I declined. I was like, that's not something that I want to do. Our relationship is not that serious to go into, like, a marriage proposal and because we were very off, not in our relationship. And I think that's something to. To note. Him and I had not been dating for two and a half years. We had known each other for two and a half years and we had been actually dating for about nine months before going on the ultimatum. And within those nine months had broken up maybe five, six times.

[Host]

We did not know exactly.

[Sandy]

So it's very different than being in a solid two and a half year committed relationship. It's very true. But we had this love that was undeniable and we had loved each other. We had said we loved each other before we even actually started dating. Dating. So we did love each other for, like maybe two years or so, but it was very, you know, off and on. But yeah, I mean, we obviously both agreed to it. And yeah, there Were moments where I was just, like, frustrated, where, you know, I'm like, you wanted to do this. I think that frustration was more so stemming from the. The overall, like, attitude that we both kind of had, but mostly him had. Moving into it was so, like, unbothered. Was very. We were very silly and playful about it. It was not like this serious, somber thing where we're like, oh, my God, like, we're gonna break up. Like, he was really chill about it and almost to the point where it was, like, a little bit bothering to me because I'm like, okay, is, you know, does this not, like, freak you out? I just had felt pretty, like, taken for granted in the relationship. And so then I think moving into it, the reason why I'm like, you know, what's going on is because all of a sudden it. It. It switched really, because it got real because we didn't know how intense it was going to be. And I think his real heart and, like, feelings for me showed up, like, the second we got there. You guys have to understand, before we got there, it was not like that. But that wasn't because he didn't love me or actually want to be with me. It was just because he was running from his own things or whatnot. So it was like you were avoidant in the relationship. And I moved into the experience with that, like, all over me. And then I was just like, wait, why is this all of a sudden flipped, you know, now that we're here?

[Natalie]

No, I can totally see your confusion on that end of. I mean, you said multiple times you felt neglected in the relationship. And then, you know, I get your point where it's like, now you or with another man, and you're like, hold on. What the fuck? I want you. I love you. You know, you always want what you can't have. Why was there so many breakups in your relationship before coming on the ultimatum?

[Sandy]

I think it has to do with some of the kind of the emotional turmoil or whatnot that Nick had been going through. And obviously, like, you can speak more to it, but there was just a lot of, like, instability. I think in terms of, like, the surface level of our dynamic in our lifestyle and our relationship, but in terms of, like, underneath that, our actual connection and love for each other, we always, like, would find a way back to each other because we really, really do love each other.

[Nick]

So I think that's something that that wasn't shown a lot of is Sandy and I started as very, very good friends, and we did have a physical connection, but she had come out of a relationship. I was very much ready to commit. I had been at a point in my life with her where we had been dating, but I, I was ready, and I. She wasn't, and she was very honest about that. But I had to essentially say at this point, like, I can't continue to be physical with you anymore because I'm not getting the emotional side of you that I'm yearning for.

[Sandy]

And he kind of gave me, like, a mini ultimatum, like, and I did.

[Nick]

And then I started to see somebody else, and she came, wow, you and.

[Natalie]

I are the same, Nick.

[Nick]

Full twist. And said, I recognize that I love you. I recognize that I want to be in a relationship with you. I am here to commit. That relationship that I was in was very easy to depart from. And we then made a commitment to each other. We'd always had a lot of fun together. We had a lot of good, A lot of good stuff going, but we.

[Sandy]

Had a really beautiful relationship.

[Nick]

I think if you look at the cadence of it, me having that, you know, need for it kind of came full circle for both of us because I had the initial, like, I can't do this. You're not getting me what you need. And maybe I was carrying resentment from that that I didn't acknowledge. I think that I was, you know, I don't really feel like I'm a jealous person. So when she would go out and go to events or parties or whatnot, I would just, you know, have a good time, like, see you later. See you when you get home. It wasn't something that I really wanted to be involved in, but I did feel when I got to the show that, that thing that I guess, you know, I, I, I'm. Listen, I'm sure at some point in my life, I've been cheated on. I don't, I don't know. I'm not for certain, but I can just tell, like, I don't know that feeling because I've never specifically seen or felt what it felt like. And that emotion is. Is really intense. And to see her with JR So quickly have a connection and have it be like there was. It was obvious that even though there were other people attracted to her and other people that wanted her attention, they were magnets. And I was very aware of that from day one.

[Host]

We were, too.

[Nick]

Yeah. And that was a more difficult thing to digest than I could have ever anticipated going into the experience.

[Host]

Did you guys discuss any, like, rules or boundaries in terms of, like, how you guys are planned on? Kind of, you didn't know none.

[Sandy]

No.

[Nick]

I trusted that that wouldn't. That there wouldn't be like beyond a certain level. But I was also understanding that we were going to be dating other people and that, you know, I may have a connection. She may have a connection. She had asked me one point, if you know about sex. I said no. So we kind of knew that that was off limits.

[Host]

What do you mean? How'd you ask it? Were you like, can we fuck?

[Sandy]

No, we just were kind of. We actually didn't have very many conversations about the experience or the show leading up to it in general, which I think was our problem.

[Host]

That's crazy.

[Sandy]

We went into it very like, whatever. We kind of winged it. And I will say, like, I tried to have a lot of conversations with you that you didn't want to have, but we did have the conversation around boundaries and we basically said like, yeah, no boundaries.

[Nick]

I mean, you asked me specifically if I was bringing condoms.

[Sandy]

Yeah. Like if you were going to have sex with anything.

[Nick]

Absolutely not.

[Sandy]

Yeah. And so that was clear as day. Like, okay, cool, that's. We don't have to worry about that. But we did. We were open to doing the experiment, like kissing or whatnot. That wasn't. Me and Nick have had a very like open mind. It just. We're really open minded humans. And so that wasn't a crazy concept. It just didn't turn out the way that we.

[Host]

Yeah, it was. I guess it was less about because you're right. Because like, who knows? I mean, sex. Who knows, for certain couples might not, might not need anything. It was more like I was a surprise. Not only just you guys, but just all the couples. It seemed like not a lot of couples had a conversation about like, how can we make sure the other person feels respected in this process? Because it definitely doesn't feel like you guys had that conversation about how do we make the other person feel respected in this process, given that regardless if it's sex or making out or cut. Because I'm thinking about the sexual. What we watched felt like a lot of disrespect in both directions between the two of you. And I think that was the most shocking thing for me to watch as a viewer where it was like all these couples kind of fucking hate each other because like, for a concept of like, you know, a premise of. And again, I appreciate the context you guys offer that maybe you guys weren't as rock solid as we were led to believe going in. But yeah, it was just more like the lack of respect, you know, Regardless of what your guys individual boundaries or comfort levels with sex or dating or whatever, it just, Yeah, I was shocked by JR's ability to act like he owned you in front of Nick and where that confidence level right from and your seeming support of that behavior around Nick.

[Sandy]

I think being there, like, we, you know, you don't have boundaries, whatnot. And okay, you know, you're in these types of experiences, there's obviously, you know, there's kind of rules that they have. I don't know if they have that bachelor or not. But like with this it's like, okay, you guys are broken up, you're, there's no boundaries, whatnot. And so I think I was really trying to take it for what it was like the whole process and experience and like really dive into all of it. And I think with that I was kind of like delusional a little bit, like not really able to actually see what was going on. And I, again, I just had so much resentment. I was like, you wanted to do this and now we're doing it and now you're upset.

[Host]

Did you have to convince her to do it?

[Nick]

No.

[Sandy]

I mean, no, but he was, he, he wanted to do it. He was all on board and did.

[Host]

You not want to do it?

[Sandy]

I didn't want to do it at first. And then we went through the process and I was very like, if it happens, it happens, like, fine, whatever.

[Nick]

But it's, that was not you, you, that was not discussed that you didn't want to do that. No, I, I, you may have had your own reservations off.

[Sandy]

I had said no. I have messages of me literally rejecting saying, no, thank you.

[Nick]

You know, like, I didn't know that you didn't want to do it. If I knew that you, I brought.

[Sandy]

It to you saying that somebody reached out to me and I was like, this is obviously like, this is not something that we're gonna do and you wanted to do it. And yes, we all like, we, we went through the process and it happened. And I'm not saying like that I didn't want to do it. I'm just, was more so holding kind of resentment because of your overall, like just kind of the attitude, moving into it where you're like, oh, I can't wait to have all my sexy girlfriends and this and that and da, da, da, da. Like, you better watch out. It was like very, very playful and joking to the point where I was like, okay, damn. And then we got there and I think I was playing into it too. And then it was just Then it got way too serious. But I do genuinely like taking sarcasm.

[Nick]

Out of context for a very situation. Very, like serious conversation is, is a little risky. But I, I can hear what you're saying, and I think that we were trying to make light of it together. Yeah, we were always did when we had fun conversations.

[Sandy]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And I think if you went into this with, you know, a hard nose into the wall and trying to like, there wouldn't be a reason. I did want it to be a fun experience for us. You're absolutely gorgeous human being and like, you are going to have the attention of men no matter if you're with me or with somebody else. So jealousy is not best served in my situation with or without the show.

[Host]

Like, what do you mean by that?

[Nick]

That she's gorgeous, she's going to get attention from men no matter what.

[Host]

What's that after? What do you mean by that?

[Nick]

So, like me being open about it, it doesn't do me any good to try to feed into the idea that I would become jealous. I was just trying to be open minded, that she would have a connection, that I would have a connection on the show. We learned about ourselves through it, and then we get back together and work on the things that we both wanted to have and see where that would end up. The thing is, we did a lot of that and we did do a lot of work together after. Even with our time together and even after all the drama and the madness and the things with JR and whatnot, we really did. We were able to come together as a couple again and have some breakthroughs because we recognized that there were some very deep wounds that we triggered in each other and weren't showing up for each other in specific ways. You know, I wasn't holding space in certain ways, she wasn't holding space in certain ways. And we had conversations that I was hopeful to have to move forward. Unfortunately, at that point the relationship had run its course. And I think that at the very least I can look back and have the. I wouldn't say it's. My heart is full that we had those conversations because I had to still deal with all this stuff before. But I am glad at the very least that if there was any reason for me to stay, it was to have those chats which nobody sees. You know, that's not in.

[Host]

I mean, I get why you didn't make it to the part where you get back together with your girlfriend. For sure.

[Natalie]

I think a scene part that was very hard for me to watch was when you came to the door, banging on the door. And it was like you could hear a broken man who you've known for two and a half years off and on. And it was. You sent J.R. to the door to answer it and to deal with it. Was that for any particular reason?

[Host]

So.

[Sandy]

So, yeah, that is definitely kind of. That was a big night. And we're seeing most of none of it. And what we're seeing is, like. I mean, it's not. That's not exactly, like, how it went down.

[Nick]

I had a extraordinary. Of all the times I was having a hard time, that day was the hardest. So what a lot of. And I'm not, like, I have to keep some privacy to my life, but something happened that day, and it was not to do with our relationship. And it was a very, very heavy, like, extremely. Somebody in my life who I've known for 13 years and has been one of the closest people in my life did me about. I mean, this show is nothing compared to how. And I mean, like.

[Natalie]

And you wanted to talk about it.

[Nick]

With Sandy, and I had a bad reaction to that. I went out. I did run into Carly and Lori, and I was in a bad way. And I don't think Sandy quite understood the volume of what was going on because I wasn't communicating. I wasn't communicating. I was drunk, I was upset, and I was irate. I was irate at somebody else, like. And it unfortunately came through like, I was. Because she was already annoyed with me at that point about me continuing to reach out.

[Sandy]

But it's not just like. I just want to make it clear. It's not just like, oh, he was reaching out to me, you guys. Like, oh, he was calling me and texted me. How dare I. Like, you know, how dare my boyfriend call me. It's not what it is, trust me. Because that is if he ever needed me. And he came to me in a conscious, healthy way, just like, babe, I need you. I need to talk. I would drop everything and go across the country to go get you. And you know that that's not what was happening, and that's not. It's not what we see. But it is a continued pattern and cycle of whatever's going on in there affects his behavior out here. And then you. You mix in alcohol, whatever, and you're not in. It's a. It's not a healthy state of mind. Like, so what was happening that night? He was irate for a lot of different reasons. Me, I'm sure, being one of them. Just the whole experience and everything. Like, the fact that I'm living with another man and he's by himself, I mean, that alone is, like, torturous.

[Nick]

I mean, he was also.

[Sandy]

It was. It was. It was honestly ridiculous. Like, that shouldn't have happened. We honestly probably should have left.

[Natalie]

Y'all were living above you?

[Sandy]

Yeah, I was. We were living above him. Like, very close corner.

[Host]

I would imagine. The point of the show is to trigger you guys, of course.

[Sandy]

And it triggered us to, like, the breaking point, you know what I mean?

[Nick]

Like, that was.

[Sandy]

And a little. It was. It just was a lot.

[Nick]

And no one was. Else was living in that close.

[Sandy]

We were in close corners.

[Nick]

I don't know how you sleep, you know, so sleep deprivation, you know, emotional feelings, alcohol, it. I was not in a good mental place. I think that's pretty clear.

[Natalie]

When did you know they were living above you?

[Nick]

So I walked out to do like, you know, we do our interviews, and it was one of the nights. It's funny because you see it on the edit, as if I'm like trying to look at. Into their door or something. And I walked out into the courtyard, looked up, and, you know. Cause we separated during that. Mariah and I were having a night. We were painting or doing something, and I walked out so she could do her interview. I was walked out to the courtyard, sat down, I looked up, I saw J.R. i was like, oh.

[Sandy]

And you see me run inside because I didn't want him to have the visual of me and JR on the balcony together having dinner. I just didn't want him to have that visual. And I was like, there's no way that this happening right now. So I ran inside because Junior had told me that you were walking around. I just didn't want you to see us at that point.

[Nick]

You know, sounds like things you make up. Like at that point, you're just footsteps and time. It's like you don't. You start to make up things that you know are not true and I don't believe are true because we've had some pretty definitive and honest conversations about that. And I think that I believe you and trust that those things did not occur, but I think that it felt that way very much. The volume of that was turned up full, you know, full tilt in my head. And I was going to bed thinking about.

[Host]

What were you hearing?

[Nick]

In my head, I was hearing that they. I mean, I do think that you were hearing footsteps.

[Sandy]

And here's the thing. I moved back into the apartment that he was living in. And you can hear what Nick's saying.

[Nick]

But I get it. I think what you.

[Sandy]

Okay, whatever.

[Nick]

The noises in itself are far more removed from. And this is also something that I really need to. I feel like I need to address is that they did have a very genuine connection. I don't think it's.

[Sandy]

It doesn't show, obviously. It looks like we're like. Like not talking about anything and what.

[Natalie]

Definitely look like you're into each other for sure.

[Nick]

So I wasn't, like, that wasn't something I was just making up in my head that they were. It's like, she wasn't put off by him. She wasn't unattracted to him. She was. They were leaning into each other from the jump, and you could see that from the start. So that's why the whole, like, when I found out that they kissed before they even moved in together, I'm like, well, if that's happening that fast, what's next? And now they're living above my head.

[Natalie]

But it's like you would hear a bird tweet and be like, oh, my God, that's them kissing type of thing. Like, it was just every noise you heard, you just went to the. The worst possible idea of what it could be.

[Nick]

Yeah. I'm a creative person, so I can create.

[Natalie]

I think anyone in that situation would.

[Host]

Would go insane.

[Sandy]

Yeah, totally.

[Natalie]

I don't think.

[Sandy]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

Yeah, I don't think.

[Sandy]

I mean, that's. And that's something that I don't. I. I could not understand in the moment. Like, I look back and I'm just like, girl. Like, come on. You know, it's, like, so obvious, but I was so obvious. Just, like, what Nick was going through and just. He was alone. I'm with Junior, and it's like, me and JR Are super flirty and da, da, da. Like, I could. I could see that. And in the moment, I couldn't because I was so wrapped up in my own experience. And the things that were happening with. With me and Nick before the show, during the show, was, like, overpowering everything. I didn't. It had nothing to do with JR honestly. And it had everything to do with me and Nick. Um. And that's what you're seeing the night that he comes to the apartment. And it's not me being like, first of all, JR Is the one that literally was like, no, no, no, you stay back. I'm getting this door. Because Nick had been calling. Like, I had been sobbing on the phone to Nick that night for hours. You see one thing and hang up. That's. That's a very, very tail end. And. And that's not even exactly how it happened. That is after, like, countless conversations of me begging him, like, hey, please, I'm not in a space to talk right now, like. And he was not in the space to talk either. He was, and he wasn't respecting that. And obviously, like, oh, what do you mean?

[Host]

He wasn't.

[Sandy]

He wasn't in the. In a mental, physical state to talk. He was very intoxicated. Like, okay, like, if somebody's calling you, like, it's like, you know how that's gonna go down. I know because I've been down this road with him many times. I've seen him in that state many times before, and I've learned to just disengage when. When that's happening. Me engaging is not going to. It's not going to do us any good.

[Nick]

I don't think anybody is good when they drink. I don't think you've been your best self when you've drank. I don't think I'm your best self.

[Sandy]

Yeah, no. 100%.

[Nick]

It's like, we also have to take ownership of both sides, and I think that's what we've been doing so we can be clear about this and clean. And I also think it's still very, like, truthful that I was going through, watching something, actually not even watching it at that point feeling. And that's what I was actually a bit of a. I was concerned because I thought that I was going to see the show and be like, wow, like, you had nothing to worry about. And I just. I don't think that's true. And I think that I did observe, especially from JR's side, him genuinely feeling for her and care for her. And he seems to be, you know, he seemed to be, throughout it, very protective of you and very much.

[Sandy]

You know, I think he knew what I was going through with you. Like, he knew. I mean, of course I was living with him, and so he would hear me, like, he knew I was going through it. I would be, like, really upset. And so that. I do think that he got kind of protective in a way. Like, in a weird way, I guess.

[Host]

Why did he feel like it was his place?

[Nick]

That's not what I mean. He called you his wife.

[Sandy]

Okay. He's not being serious. Serious. I know that it seems that way, but, like, obviously, I'm not his wife.

[Host]

Well, obviously. I'm just saying. And I don't think if we asked Junior if he literally thought you were his wife. It was just More his attitude, the.

[Sandy]

Attitude of terms in terms of, like.

[Host]

What he thought his place was.

[Sandy]

Right.

[Host]

Like, again, I just kind of go back to. I imagine what if Natalie and I did an experiment like this where it's just like, you know, and the. Listen, I think the show is fascinating. I love how they are. Why I love this show so much is like, most shows are exploring, like, individuals pursuing love as opposed to people in your shoes, right, Who. Who, you know, examine, like, you know, relationships very much like your guys's are. I mean, your guys's relationship seems to be like this poster board toxic relationship. And I even almost mean that in, like, in a compliment. Like, we've all been part of these relationships. Watching you guys is like a. A window into, like, my past life. Like, I think anyone who's watching this, if. If you. If you look at not just your guys's relationship, but a lot of these relationships, I mean, it's very easy to see if you're honest with yourself, moments of your own vulnerability in these relationships. But it's more like, again, to me, it comes down to, like, a respect in terms of I could lean into experiment, but, you know, this is still my girlfriend going in. And for someone to jump in and assume a role either. And I would believe either, because Junior does seem a bit delusional. But either he's. He's just assuming that's his role, or he is. He feels like he's gotten permission to play that role.

[Sandy]

I get it. And I think with. There was disrespect. I mean, there was disrespect on my end, just not like, comprehending the whole situation in itself and being like, okay, wait a minute. Like, no, no, no. Like, that's my real life boyfriend. Like, this is like kind of. This is a trial marriage. You know what I mean? Like, there's certain things that, like, don't talk to him that way. In terms of the night that he came to the apartment, though, it is very different. I do want to, like, say that it was like, things kept happening. And I think Junior had just seen me so, like, broken down and upset over it that he was trying to step in. But I don't know. That was. It was a very weird.

[Host]

Like, why did Junior at any point just be like, just go talk to your guy, you know?

[Sandy]

Like, what had happened was Nick had told me, like, I'm coming to the apartment. And I was like, no, you're not. Like, you will not come to this apartment right now. I don't want to talk to you. This is not a healthy dynamic. You're not in the right mental, physical, or emotional state that this is not going to go well if we talk. And he came to the door, and Junior was like, you're staying back there. I'm going to the door. Because JR Was pissed because he lives there. And I was like, this is not actually happening right now. That's why I'm, like, so uncomfortable laughing, because I'm like, this is not real life right now. There's no way that, like, these men are about to go at it.

[Host]

And I'm like, I get the discomfort.

[Sandy]

It was so uncomfortable. And I have a really bad, nervous laugh. Like, really bad. You guys. I always got in trouble.

[Nick]

I would agree with that. And that can be very difficult in serious.

[Sandy]

Horrible. It's horrible. And there was nothing funny about that, by the way. Like, nothing. I was crying two seconds before that, and then I just. I was more of, like, Junior being like, no, you stand back. And, like, he, like, ran to the door. I was like, this is not happening. You know? But I just think that there was a lack of respect. And knowing what I know now in that moment, like, I would have dropped everything and been there for him 100%, because we're not in a normal situation. This isn't just like, oh, you know, he's having a, you know, breakdown, like, and we're back at home. And after the bar, it's like, this was different. And he really needed me in that moment. I didn't show up for him. And that really hurts me because I've showed up for you so much throughout our relationship. Like, I really have. And, like, that sucks. You know, that's, like. It's really difficult to watch, honestly.

[Natalie]

I think you said in that moment that you felt violated and that it was so unfair to you. Why did you feel violated?

[Sandy]

From his. The things that were happening off camera. And if we don't. If we want to talk about it, like. But there was a lot that you guys are not seeing in the relationship and what was going on.

[Nick]

I was trying to get her out of there. I was trying to use everything I could to, you know.

[Sandy]

But you weren't just like. It wasn't just like, we need to get the out of here there. It's. Look, it was very unhealthy in terms of the communication and what was going on.

[Nick]

I should have loved myself enough in those moments to just leave. And honestly, like, I think that I. I let the, you know, the more emotional, hopeful, romantic, whatever part get the best of me. And I think that I was. I agreed to do this, like I agreed to do this. And I do have to take ownership of that. I also went through something, you know, that I don't. I honor that Mariah was able to stay stable and sane through it. Being there on my own and feeling the feelings that I was feeling. I wasn't treating myself with the kind of mental clarity and health that I needed to. That I'm, you know, working on now. And I do think that Sandy and I are good mirrors for each other to evolve through separate relationships. And as you said, with the toxicity to it, there was. There was a dynamic in the relationship prior to that. As I said, when we started, she was all very push pull with me and kind of like wanted me when she wanted me, but then wanted to do her own thing. And I finally set a boundary around that. But then I gave into the boundary and it kind of. It ignited this part of us that was a lot of fun and a lot of, you know, we had an incredible physical chemistry and we always had a hell of a lot of laughs together. But we weren't serving each other in that safe place that clearly I was needing in that time.

[Host]

So I'm curious, I'm gonna describe to you my perception of your guys relationship based off the show we watched. And I'm curious what parts of it you think are accurate. Yeah, this is my perception of our relationship. The show portrays you guys as if throughout the season. It's like you're constantly giving Nick notes on how he's supposed to do this and how he's supposed to this. And like Nick is constantly apologizing to you for what feels like some things may be valid. Some things. It's just like it almost felt like Nick was apologizing because he's like, I think I'm just supposed to apologize. I don't know. But I love this girl. And that's kind of how. That's the. The vibe that the show portrays you guys.

[Nick]

I do, I understand that vibe, but I think that so interesting, like, what people don't see is that I was. I was absent moving into this. I wasn't checking.

[Host]

What do you mean by like.

[Nick]

I was just in my own.

[Sandy]

I was like literally opposite. Like, like he wasn't. He wouldn't call me, he wouldn't text me unless we were together, even when we were together.

[Host]

So you just flat out ignoring her?

[Sandy]

He couldn't.

[Nick]

I wouldn't say ignore it.

[Sandy]

He wasn't present with me. You guys, like, I spent more time with my best friend and her boyfriend.

[Host]

Paint the picture for me because, like, I can be very aloof, and I can be very distant now, and I can be on a couch now. I can be like, Nick and, like, Nick, Nick. Like, I don't hear. But eventually, now he's like, bro. But then there's, like, we know couples where, like, some people literally, like, are. Ignore their partners and. And are checking out.

[Sandy]

Like, no, it wasn't ever. Like, I knew it was never. Well, actually, I didn't know if it was intentional or I just was like, do you. I felt like he was pushing me to break up with him because he was not around. And I think he just was in his own head going through his own thing. So it was just naturally, like, there was kind of a disconnect. But I'm very much like, I need somebody in front of me. I'm really big on quality time. I'm big on physical touch. It was like, he wasn't physically with me. Like, he would go sleep on the couch for, like, just because he, like, needs to move around a lot, you know? And I'm like. Or we would. We would do things, like, with our friends, and he would never, like, he could never make it. He never want to come. So I'd be with my best friend and her boyfriend, and I'm like, where's my boyfriend? You know? So it was actually kind of, like an absent boyfriend thing.

[Host]

But did you think you'd survive the show?

[Sandy]

I don't know. I honestly, like, I do think that we were at a really rocky point in our relationship, and I was, like, kind of wanting to just give it, like, give it my all. And that's what happened with me going into the experience with JR Whatnot. A lot of stuff happened, like, that we don't see with Nick and I. And I almost wanted to just, like, leave the whole experience. And I was like, I owe it to my relationship to give it my all and be with him. And the thing is, it's like, we wanted different things.

[Nick]

We just wanted different things. I mean, when it comes down to it. We went to Europe the month before, before we knew we were gonna get on the show. I had a friend's wedding that came up. She came with me. She wanted to go to Mykonos. This is. And this is something I have to own. Like, I'm really bad at making choices in the moment. I'm not a good planner. I get that. I go kind of, like, off the cuff. I definitely fly by the seat of my pants. Like, If I'm gonna paint, I want to paint all night. Sometimes that takes two nights. Sometimes I'm not there during the day. And that was. That is. That is who I am. Like, I have to own that. And that can not. That can feel very shitty for a partner. I'm sure I don't have the same love language as she has. And, you know, I. I was trying to work on the physical touch aspect and get there because it just is not something I naturally do. I think we had a. The other type of physical touch for us was intense and wonderful, but I'm just day to day, you know, hand holding and things. I. I somehow just haven't. I never developed that. I never developed that. That sort of, I guess, rhythm to how I show up. And she wanted to go to Mykonos, which was. After that. I felt like Mykonos was too much, overwhelming. But I agreed to it reluctantly, which I shouldn't have done. And then I put her in a state of limbo where basically I knew in my gut that I didn't want to go. But instead of just me being assertive and saying, I don't want to do that, and we're not doing that, and if you want to do that, go.

[Host]

I kind of decided to go and be a baby.

[Nick]

I didn't go.

[Sandy]

No, it's. Yeah. I mean, that's just the whole thing in itself. But that was. That was literally like the week before we left for the ultimatum, and we came out and it was like, one of our biggest fights. And it was just this whole thing. I'm, like, in Europe by myself with, like, my friend.

[Natalie]

So you left her?

[Nick]

She wasn't by herself.

[Sandy]

She was with my friend or boyfriend. But it's like, I wanted. I went. I went there because I wanted to be with you. We went to a wedding. It doesn't matter. I don't think that this is, like, that important. But that was.

[Host]

Well, I mean, you guys aren't on the same page there. Is that.

[Sandy]

Yeah, no, no.

[Nick]

That's where it comes down to is I did.

[Host]

I guess my question for you is.

[Sandy]

It was really important to me. I just didn't know if. It's like.

[Nick]

I thought it was important for you.

[Host]

To stay in your next relationship. There will. I mean, Natalie is a bit younger than me. Right. And so when we got together, we obviously got together because there's a physical attraction, and then we were compatible. We enjoyed hanging out. When we finally were like, let's do this and date, you know, there was an acknowledgement of Our age difference. There was an acknowledgment of ways in which maybe we're not as compatible as we wanted to be. And then there was, like, a willingness, at least a recognition on both of our parts. But at least. I'll just speak for me is a. As a guy who is like, you know, I'm about to date someone who is going to want to and has the right to want to do things I've already done, is going to want to go to places I may not want to go or that I've already been. And I can't just not show up. And I can't just say, go, do that. I don't feel like doing it. If I want to be with this person, I have to meet her where she is, and she's going to have to meet me where I'm at. And I'm just curious, like, as you look back on your relationship with Sandy, like, what changes have you made in that department? Because your next girl. Are you still dating that girl, whoever you were greeting? I'm sure that at some point she's going to want to do something you don't want to do. And no.

[Nick]

Are more on the same page.

[Host]

I'm not. I'm just talking about when you're not. Because as compatible as Natalie and I are, there's always going to be moments where, you know, we're disconnected or she wants to do something where I don't want to do. And, like, it's easy to make a relationship work when you guys agree. Yeah, right. Like, it's when. It's when the couple doesn't agree. And that happens for any couple. I don't care how compatible or how connected you are. At some point, there's moments of disconnection, and how you work through that is kind of what. How any relationship makes it or breaks it. So I'm.

[Sandy]

I think there were other factors, like, involved that made it really difficult to be on the same page or make certain decisions. And I think that's just kind of what I mean. That was for Europe, that was a big break. And it's not just about lifestyle decisions or Mykonos or whatnot. Like, who gives a fuck, honestly? It's more about the behavior and, like, how you're showing up versus how you're not showing up. And that's just kind of.

[Nick]

Kind of like we had this weird. I don't say role reversal, but I would say that I was far less. Like, my volume was far lower when it came to, you know, I remember you Making a comment at some point, like, is there anything that upsets you? Like, and I think that I was. I was. It wasn't that I wasn't upset. I just. I hadn't gotten to that point where I felt like. I don't know. I didn't feel angry, and I didn't feel that it was serving me. In our relationship, there was a lot of frustration that Sandy didn't feel like she was getting from me, like, the emotions and the volume of whatever she was desiring. And I think that Sandy is a fiery person. She's got a lot of, like, passion and artistry in her own way through life. And I think that just comes down to the fact that, like, we communicated poorly when I wanted, she didn't. When she did, I didn't. And we just. We kind of reverberated this, like, this really deep connection through who we. How much we love each other as people, but continuing to kind of see that, like, this probably isn't gonna be a forever thing. And I was hopeful that that was gonna shift. And honestly, when this came up, I was like, let's put ourself in a scenario that really shakes things up, and let's see if we can break through this together and find, like, a new road together. And it just. You know, I think everyone saw that it went the other direction. That doesn't mean that I need to, you know, resonate in that negative negativity anymore. I forgive. We've had, like, plenty of conversations. I want her to be happy. I hope that she ends up with somebody that she feels, you know, follows the spirit and the goals that she wants in her life. And I think that it's been a really challenging test. But I will say, through my process after the show and everything that I've done, she has been immensely supportive because I recognize that I was using alcohol and coping through numbing skills that were not healthy. And so I did go to check in and see what I could do for myself to change that behavior, because I never recognized it as something that I really needed to get help with. And it's been hard. It's something that is so socially accepted, especially on the shows like these, where everybody's having a drink and people are moving. Moving it around. Like, it's. It's everywhere. And it's really hard to take a step back from yourself, especially when you're feeling like. And. And look at that pattern. And I think that one thing I will say is, no matter what my frustrations were with her, with the show, with the breakup. She was always consistently supportive with me and me, you know, getting to a better place.

[Sandy]

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[Natalie]

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[Host]

Their wipes have zero harsh ingredients for a great gentle clean.

[Natalie]

The Skin Essentials diapers features the Skin Protect Liner which is what helps take care of the ick and stick that can cause rash.

[Host]

Their whole diaper helps protect against the top two causes of rash by managing moisture and runny mess. Pull Up Skin Essentials has got kid covered too with a training pant that is ultra soft and breathable to help protect sensitive skin throughout potty training. Learn [e-mail] Once again head to huggies.com to learn more. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. Can you name every single subscription you have? Over 74% of people have subscriptions they have forgotten about. That's crazy. That's a lot. With Rocket Money, you don't have to remember every subscription because you can see them all laid out right before you with the help of Rocket Money. See all your subscriptions in one place and know exactly where your money is going. And for any that you don't want, Rocket Money can help you cancel them with just a few taps. Rocket Money's dashboard gives you a clearer view of your expenses across all your accounts. Plus, you can easily create a personalized budget with customized categories to keep your spending on track. See your monthly spending trends in categories to know exactly where your money is going. Rocket Money will even negotiate and lower your bills for you, sometimes by up to 20%. That's crazy. They automatically scan your bills to find opportunities to save. Then you can ask them to negotiate for you. They'll even deal with customer service. What more are you looking for? Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million and canceled subscriptions, saving members up to 740 a year. When using all the app's premium features myself, I have saved over a thousand dollars. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com v I a l l today. That's RocketMoney.com v I a L l RocketMoney.com v I a lyrics l Do you have any regrets on how you handled Junior?

[Nick]

No, I don't care about. I mean, JR's like, Jer, if I was JR, I'd be into her too.

[Sandy]

I don't think he handled JR in any wrong way.

[Nick]

Yeah, I mean, I apologize.

[Host]

I was just more like, I wouldn't.

[Sandy]

Oh, you was too over.

[Host]

Yeah, I would have been. I would have back a little bit more.

[Sandy]

Yeah.

[Nick]

They didn't get the whole combo. I mean, let's. Like, there was definitely. I'm sorry for showing up, but. Dude, what the fuck are you talking about? This is my girlfriend.

[Host]

Yeah, it's more like you seemed way.

[Nick]

Too okay with him, Scotty, Which I wasn't. And I also was at the point that wasn't. I was not okay. And I also walked into Scotty and JR having a conversation about Sandy that wasn't about me. And I was just like, okay. Like, I'm not sure at what point. And I felt. I mean, I felt like I was living in a kaleidoscope at that point. Like, I'm. This is my person. This is the person that I came to the show with. She's the person I know the best. And people are having conversations with her and about her as if they are involved with her more than I am. And that was, you know, at that point, Caleb and I, you know, Caleb stepped in. I said, I got this, like. And that's when I kind of started to go towards J R and say, well, listen, I know that Sandy's telling me something. Why don't you tell me what's going on? Why don't you tell me the truth if this is something that I need to be worried about or I'm just making this all over my fucking head and I'm losing it for nothing. Like, come correct. And also, what's your stance and what are you going through with Zana? Because I know a lot of conversations going on about me and Sandy, but where are you with Zayna and, like, where is that for your relationship? That conversation's obviously not captured, but I never had a specific issue, nor do I with J R as a human, if I was.

[Natalie]

No, he's way too cocky. I mean, this man thinks he likes God. I don't know. I mean, he's like, everyone is scared of me. Everyone wants to be me, wants to date me, which I. I can't speak to.

[Nick]

I.

[Host]

Honestly, how do you see Junior after watching it back?

[Sandy]

I mean, look, I. Junior has this, like, exterior shell, and I kind of talk about it. I mean, I wish they showed more. I was, like, really trying to help him, like, break that down because him and I actually had a lot of conversation around his past, his childhood, his upbringing, his divorce, like, you know, things that were deep rooted for both of us. And so I feel like I really saw kind of like, what's underneath all of their. Deep down. And I was kind of, like, vouching for that, but nobody sees it because it's. That's not how he. That's not what he leads with, obviously. And even.

[Host]

I mean, honestly, even if I did see that, I know, honestly, like, I don't have much patience for the guy or whoever, but maybe I'm more critical of men in that department, but, like, I don't care about the guy who can owe it up to the girl he's trying not, you know, to hook up with or, you know, and be soft or whatever and then be an. To everyone else, you know, like, that doesn't.

[Sandy]

Yeah. I mean, look, I. I cannot speak for Junior. That's his thing.

[Host]

No, I don't ask you. I'm just curious if you see him differently and were you surprised by things you watched?

[Sandy]

I think in the beginning, honestly, I'll be real. Like, I couldn't see that because we're not interacting with the other castmates, you guys, like, we're not allowed to interact with our castmates. You are literally just with this person. And so I didn't really see any of that stuff until a little bit later. And as more time went on and his interactions with you and whatnot, and it, you know, it would bother me because I'm. I'm a very, like, social person. I'm very big on, you know, making friends and whatnot and just, like, being kind to other people. I know it might not look like that, but I really am. And I had. I was like, why are you, like, you know, why do you have a problem with everybody? Like, it's just not how I. How I am. But again, we're in this, like, weird experiment. You're matched up with somebody. You gotta. You gotta pick from some. From one of five people there. And once you're in there, you're in it. And it's like, there's a lot more that you guys just aren't seeing, obviously, in terms of, like, what we're working on, the conversations that we're having. You know, how we're trying to, like, show up for each other so that we can show up better for our partners and challenge each other on certain things. Like, I understand that. Like. Like, doesn't make any sense because you quite literally see zero of that. So, like, why would anybody think that? But with these really intense experiences, there's a reason it's two months. Because you want to get the whole experience. And it's more than just what we're seeing. Obviously. There's. You know, because at the end of it, it's like you. There is a decision for an engagement or whatnot, and you really are kind of going through, like, a trial marriage. I don't know. I do see things differently. Just, like, having over a year to kind of, like, process everything, having a step away from it, and then now, like, seeing it as a mirror. For sure.

[Natalie]

I mean, I think especially at the reunion when they showed all of his clips of him continuing to disrespect Zana when it wasn't even, like, before he.

[Host]

Even got to you guys.

[Natalie]

Yeah. Before it was even, like, he picked his trial wife. It was, you know, telling Arya he was gonna get her pregnant. And, like, you know, I feel like all of those things. Even the hall pass.

[Sandy]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

Slip.

[Sandy]

I mean, so, I mean, I'll. I'll be honest. Like, there were a lot of things that I didn't see when I was in there because. And I'm just, like, fun and flirty and, like, oh, whatever. Me and Nick go into it. We're like. We're having fun, whatever. And then it's like. And I. And I realized that there was definitely a lot of things where, like, I just shouldn't have even, like, gone along with it or I. I honestly, like, I can see it in my face. I know. I remember certain moments where, like, I'm like, okay, can we not say that right now? Can we not talk about that? Like, I just would get a little bit uncomfortable. But it's like. Like, then we would instantly talk about, you know, spirituality or our families, and it was like, okay, cool. Obviously, that's not shown, but, you know, there were a lot of those comments that were just inappropriate, and there was just too much of it, honestly. And it just was like, okay, enough. And, Yeah. I mean, and then seeing some of the things that he was saying honestly about me, like, that I had no idea about, were really upsetting to me, and I just was like, you know, the whole, like, wants to be with a white girl, no strings attached comment, like, that. I just was like, wow. Like, that's really interesting, because that's not how I was perceiving. Like, our connection or whatnot. And so, yeah, that was. That was upsetting to see. And had I known certain bits of information, maybe I would have done things differently.

[Natalie]

But you did mention feeling unseen in your relationship with Nick. I think that's unfortunately a very relatable feeling.

[Sandy]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

So I am sorry that you felt that way in that relationship. You did, at the changeover use some big words to describe Nick. Tormented, attacked. Yeah, I think we all are just confused.

[Sandy]

Like, I think there's like. You're like, what are you talking about?

[Natalie]

Yeah, like, why did you feel that way?

[Sandy]

I mean, there's a lot of things that have happened in our relationship and through the process where Nick's emotional, like, volatility or instability genuinely just crossed way too many boundaries. And I think at the changeover, it was right after a big tipping point. And you can see it. I am so upset. I am clearly so mad. Nick is apologizing to me. We're like, what the fuck is this about, though? You know, it doesn't really make any sense because why would he be apologizing to her? She's just going through this trial marriage with Jerry. He's alone. But there's just a lot more that. That we can't see. And honestly, it's just. It's a. Like, it's. It's relationship stuff, and. And there's things that Nick has struggled with, I think, more than it was.

[Nick]

Just basically, you know, I would. Yeah, I was drinking and I was texting like crazy and calling like, crazy.

[Host]

Did you give us some context?

[Nick]

Because I think, like. I think, like, I think she felt like, was doing everything in my power to ruin the experience for her.

[Sandy]

Not really, though. I think that's.

[Host]

The disconnect is, like, you clearly didn't handle it well, but I don't know if anyone would in that position. And I think it's just more like.

[Nick]

But I can also, like, I can kind. And I've gone. I've gotten to this point now where, like, if the relationship was solid, we would have come together. You know, I. I think she would have been less upset with the past. She would have been less upset with the. The contact. She, I think, was upset at me leading into the show, which bled into the show. And then when I showed up, like, oh, my God, I need you. And she's like, well, dude, you haven't been here.

[Host]

I mean, that makes a lot of sense. If you were that. If you were that absent relationship.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Host]

Like, if you were. I mean, like, were you giving, like, I'm an artist. I need a paint all night and. And I can't talk. Like.

[Sandy]

Yeah, I don't even care about that, though. I support his art. Like, I'm his biggest supporter of his art.

[Host]

I don't doubt that. But again, like, again, if you're just like, it's.

[Sandy]

Yeah. Running away from having all these very.

[Host]

Rigid, like, I can. I'm available. I'm not available. I'm available. I'm not available. Was it like that?

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Sandy]

So there's a lot of instability with it, and it takes a toll.

[Host]

Why'd you stay in that relationship? It was so hard.

[Sandy]

I don't know. I really loved him. Like, I really did. Like, I just. It's like a weird, hard thing. I mean, I still love him. I care about him.

[Host]

Why were you in love with him so much that you'd want to put up with?

[Sandy]

Showed me, like, he opened up my eyes to life. I really. Like, he really did. He changed my world in, like, the best way and, like, literally getting emotional. But he, like. Like, we just had actually some of the most beautiful moments I've ever had in my life. And I don't know, it's like, we did actually have a really beautiful relationship. He opened up my perspective. He opened up my heart. Like, I learned. I actually grew as a human from loving. Most people grow through heartbreaks. Like, I grew through loving him because there were a lot of challenges in there. And, like, there are things that he struggles with in himself and that, like, it. I really showed up for him a lot of ways. And I don't know, we just had the best moments together. And I. I really. Yeah, we. We have a very deep, like, soul connection. And. And he's just one of the most amazing humans that I've. I've met. And it's like. And it's hard because it doesn't mean that he's the right life partner for me or that we're the right life partners for each other, but I've never had a relationship where it's like, we ha. We were always so understanding of one another and so, like, free and just trusting. And it was healthy in a lot of ways until it wasn't. You know, he really, like, he changed my world. Like, he really. He really has.

[Host]

What are you thinking? What are you feeling?

[Nick]

I. I mean, I'm. I'm a lot of gratitude for the words, and I think that I. I don't. I don't choose people as partners that I think are not going to be something that I. I Mean, I do lead with my heart and my soul. I feel like. And I felt like there was that soul connection from the beginning. I did feel there was a depth and an energy to her and a spirituality that was like. So it resonates through me when I'm with her. But our lifestyles were challenging for me to be. Feel safe and.

[Host]

What do you mean by that?

[Nick]

She's a big social life. She's, you know, she goes out a lot. And I never felt like I was gonna. Like she was gonna be unfaithful or anything to that degree, but I didn't feel like I was.

[Host]

You felt uncomfortable maybe with the environment. She was.

[Nick]

Yeah, I just felt. I felt like it was kind of like a vacant space that I had, you know, already seen. And I was curious what was filling her cup in that area. But I am different and like, that does fill her cup. And I think that I have some social anxiety and she has social integration and she's like, very comfortable walking into a room with a ton of people. And I am more comfortable in my studio or whatever. You know, it's like. And I, it, it. So when it comes up, like, let you go ahead, go do your thing, it's because it didn't feel like I needed to be a part of it, but I did feel like it be. It was. It is more a part of her life than somebody that I want to be with. And I think that it felt like I was maybe just wanting a slower pace for things. And, you know, I, I think that I was trying to organically kind of massage her that way. Like, look at how beautiful, like, like us, a house by the lake and like, chill and this. And she's like, yeah, but you know, what about this place in la? And I'm like, you know, it's just we, we would laugh about it and then the conversation would kind of end and we both kind of like, it wouldn't really come to a solution whatsoever. And that, that was just. I am not in that scene. And it's, it's not to take away from anything that. But like what I've been working on also is like my people pleasing thing, right? So, like, I'll just say, oh, this is okay, and I'm okay with it when maybe I'm really not so okay with it and I'm not asking for what I need in a relationship and like, not really putting myself first in certain ways and then resenting or like quietly resenting through it and not, you know, just like actively being a part of It. So, you know, it's. It's. It's really wonderful and magical to feel what she just said. I think that I have had a hard time through this, like, knowing that I. I knew it in my gut, but, like, I don't think that that description came within our relationship often. I think you would probably agree.

[Sandy]

What.

[Host]

What do you mean?

[Nick]

You describing how much you love me and why you love me and.

[Sandy]

Yeah, I mean, words of affirmation is not my thing. It's really. It's really challenging for me to, like, really speak up for myself sometimes and say what's on my heart and how I feel about certain things, whereas it's really easy for you to do that, you know? And we do have different ways that we restore love and affection.

[Nick]

Craving that, like, very much from her. And then we'd have these breakthroughs.

[Host]

Guys just seem completely not compatible.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Natalie]

At the reunion, they brought out Vanessa and Dave, which I completely could have done without.

[Host]

You're right.

[Natalie]

I mean, it was unnecessary. Very unnecessary. But Vanessa felt like it was her place when. Which I have zero respect for. When someone, especially someone who you knew for about two days maybe tells you it's time for you to deal with your trauma and to go to therapy and to get the help that you need, because it's like, that's probably not gonna help, you know, outing that on a national television show. Sandy, how was that for you to hear someone knowing? I imagine, you know, some of the stuff that he's been through in his life kind of air out, you know, that dirty laundry on tv.

[Sandy]

I mean, I was shocked. I couldn't believe, like, that. I couldn't believe that she was saying the things that she was. Because I had no idea that that's was her experience or that she even uncovered that what she was saying. It was like, why are. I felt like she was speaking for me, almost like it was like she was, you know, articulating a lot of things that I very deeply was kind of going through in the relationship that I had been struggling with for years that I haven't really been able to, like, verbalize or talk about because I.

[Nick]

Was talking about you the whole time.

[Sandy]

Of course.

[Nick]

Of course you could give. Like, that's.

[Sandy]

No, no, no.

[Nick]

But, Nick, of course she knows that that's what your experience is, because I'm telling her how much I up. Yes, of course I miss her. I can't believe this is happening. How. You know, I. Why would.

[Sandy]

No, but about. It just. Yeah, it just was really. It was really surprising. I had no idea that, like, I'm like, how do you.

[Nick]

Vanessa were also communicating after, like, friends. I thought Vanessa was a friend. She's not. It's obvious.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Sandy]

But I do. I do want to say, like, 15 minute right there.

[Natalie]

She should have stayed on her couch.

[Sandy]

I do want to say, like, that it was like a weird thing where I'm like, she was almost kind of speaking certain things that I had felt, but I had never really spoken up about. It was also kind of weird because I'm like, wait, are you his ex girlfriend or am I, you know, like. So I just. It was a little bit interesting where I haven't really felt comfortable sharing certain things or talking about certain things. And she did. I don't know. And I, you know, I think that in some ways, like, it kind of was describing some things that I had been going through with you, because I.

[Nick]

Described everything I was going through with you to her, but she knew otherwise.

[Sandy]

I just. It was. Yeah, it was. I was. It was really interesting that she. Yeah.

[Natalie]

But there seems to be something that has happened that y'all don't want to talk about or you aren't ready to share.

[Nick]

I mean, I was. I think it's very clear. I was using alcohol and not on the show, but other things prior to and after and I was numbing. And I have realized that there's something there and that I need to take care of that and that. That I was.

[Host]

And not to dismantish that because obviously that substance abuse of any kind. But, like, are we talking like, you got drunk and. And text too much or did you, like, say something like, you really should. You know what I'm saying? Like, I guess that's the. I think Sandy keep referencing. You drank and we get it. Like, you. You medicated. It's going through a hard time. You weren't your best self when you were drunk.

[Sandy]

I think more than just through the experience. Experience, experience. Like, you know, I think there's been patterns in the relationship and a lot of people can probably relate to that, that struggle with, you know, any sort of substance abuse. There's textbook patterns and. And things that happen within yourself and around with the people that you love and relationships. And it. It's really, really hard to navigate.

[Nick]

And it's also hard to be in that from her end and not know necessarily how to support it because her relationship with it was different and, you know, very different. She drinks in her. And parties in the way that she parties. And I took it to another place and I Was, you know, I think the numbing thing, it's like just to be with yourself and be with your emotions sober and like, let that be what it is, has been a challenge for me. And I think that that created, you know, a bit of the way I was, I would check out or the way I would speak to her. Felt like, I don't know, I mean, it's your experience. I think my version of it was I was looking for comfort that I needed to work through, but I was looking for her to answer the question when I need to answer it within myself. Trying to pour all of this onto her and say, can you figure out how to figure me out? Right? And like, that's a lot for somebody who's also like, not. And I'm not saying that she fell out of love with me at a certain point, but I think that it becomes. I've looked at myself through this and I'm not attracted to what I see. So I can't imagine that being a safe place or something that she wanted to continue in. And like, I think as a friend and as a human, we were always supportive, but I think that she was recognizing that that wasn't a space that she wanted to be in.

[Natalie]

There's a lot of decisions you have to make when you have a baby and the one that I feel the most comfortable and safe making is using Huggies for our daughter River. I always tell Nick that when River's crying, she's trying to tell us something and that's the case with most babies. They express it through cries. And so we've turned to Huggies. The new Huggy Skin Essentials are here. A brand new dermatologist approved line of diapers, wipes and pull ups training pants that are all designed with baby's sensitive skin in mind.

[Host]

Their wipes are so thick and ph balanced to help maintain healthy skin. Their wipes have zero harsh ingredients for a great gentle clean.

[Natalie]

The Skin Essential diapers features a skin protect liner which is what helps take care of the ick and stick that can cause rash. They have this liner built in their diapers.

[Host]

The whole diaper helps protect against the top two causes of rash by managing moisture and running mess. The liner gives you the barrier to help absorb moisture and lock away runny mess from baby skin pulp. Skin Essentials has your big kid covered too with a training pant that is ultra soft and breathable to help protect sensitive skin through potty training.

[Natalie]

Learn [e-mail] Once again head to huggies.com to learn more.

[Sandy]

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[Natalie]

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[Sandy]

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[Host]

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[Natalie]

I think numbing pain is very relatable. You know, the. I've been through a lot of trauma myself and the way that I numbed it was just lying to myself and I'd be like, like that actually never happened to me. Like, I don't, I don't know who that was, but it wasn't me. How did you get out of looking at alcohol and other things to numb that and to get to where you are now?

[Nick]

I mean it's. Every day is a process. You know, I've had, I've had a couple, you know, times where I've gone back. I did go to recovery. It was traditional, you know, inpatient and I felt a lot of community there, which was one of my biggest takeaways that I do tend to isolate when I feel badly and that, you know, not being vulnerable to need a support system when I needed it. And again, just looking at Sandy to kind of be the guiding light for what I needed to explore with other people who have been through a similar situation.

[Sandy]

And I tried, like I really gave it my all with trying to like be there for you and show up for you. I would drop everything and go make sure he was okay if he was struggling with certain things or what about.

[Host]

Like on a day to day basis?

[Nick]

I mean, she's right.

[Sandy]

I mean conversations and like. Yeah, I don't know, it's like how do you like really show up and support somebody that's going through, you know.

[Host]

I guess it's in general, how did you guys show up for each other in the relationship when it was good?

[Sandy]

I mean, we've had a lot of really, really good conversations around really heavy, hard Topics and you know, I think just showing him the love and compassion when he was broken. And like, do you gave him a.

[Natalie]

Safe space to be vulnerable and to be open?

[Sandy]

Yeah. We were like, that's huge. I very much. And I, I never like judged him for any of it. Like, I was very much a safe space for you to open up and share all that stuff with me. And I wanted to help. Like that was naturally, like what we want to do as women is just like, you know, have solutions and help and like nurture and I was very, very nurturing to him through all of this and. But also in, in turn, it was, it was hurting me too, you know, because it's like I have certain boundaries within myself and you know, thing after thing would happen and then it's like I, I'm. I'm disrespecting my own boundary by like, by staying in it.

[Nick]

But I would lie. I would lie about using.

[Sandy]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Like, and like, I mean, I think.

[Sandy]

It'S like, it's a textbook thing, of course.

[Nick]

And it's shame, you know, and it's guilt and it's, it's.

[Host]

There's a lot more than alcohol.

[Nick]

Yeah. Yep. I mean, I have a, you know, a tendency. I've explored a lot of psychedelic therapy. Unfortunately, there's something in the psychedelic therapy world that is also a bit of a two headed snake and I got pretty into that, you know, so.

[Host]

Okay.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

You still feel ashamed of that right now?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I mean, I think the shame is in the lies. Right. Because she has, she did come to me countless times and say, just as long as you tell me the truth about what's going on, I can be there for you. But what happens is you feel so guilty about what you're doing that, that it doesn't. You feel like the rejection's the next thing to come, not support. It's not, it's not sexy to be involved with something that, that pulls you in a direction every time. And like that's, I think as I look back and recognize like the escapism in it, it's. It's like, what. What am I not. What am I not seeing in myself that I need to go chase this feeling through, you know, K or booze and they're disassociatives. Right. So that's. I wanted to disassociate, especially when it comes to art. Like sometimes it's easier to just disassociate and be free with that. I don't think it's. I don't think Drugs and alcohol are any stranger to people who are artists or, you know, or creative. You know, there's something in that. It's challenging. It is challenging to be sober and feel okay.

[Natalie]

But Sandy, did you feel like he chose the drugs and alcohol over you?

[Sandy]

Yeah, of course.

[Host]

Every time when Nick was talking about, like, the. The difference in lifestyles and the going out, are you single now? Are you?

[Sandy]

Yeah.

[Host]

You are? Yeah. I guess I'm curious what you think about what he was saying in terms of like, just the different lifestyles or where you guys were in your life and I guess more now, are you like in. More in your single era? Because now you want to go out more and maybe like that kind of going out lifestyles is more conducive to being single, or is it more like you want to find someone who also wants to go out?

[Sandy]

You know, I think just like my social life has always been a big thing for me. I'm. I'm genuinely love human interaction and making new friends. Like, I just.

[Host]

Yeah, no, I love that too.

[Sandy]

I just am. I'm a social butterfly. And so for me, going out is really just having fun. Going out and being with people, dancing with your girlfriends, whatnot. Like, it give. It energizes me. I'm an extrovert, you know, so.

[Host]

But how do you draw the line between being an extrovert and loving the social aspect, going out, hanging with your girls versus also being like, in a relationship. I'm in a relationship and like, there's going out and there's like, being respectful.

[Sandy]

For me is having a partner that also enjoys to go out. Like, that we can go socialize with couples and I don't need to go out all the time, you guys, like, I genuinely. I'm either a homebody or I'm out. Like, it's kind of like one or the other for me. But something that's really big for me that I've realized just through relationships. I don't know. I think what's really. What's really big for me that I've realized throughout, like, through my relationships is I do want a partner that wants a similar thing. You know, it's. And. And they have a social life too, that they, you know, want to be around. And. And it's not a, like a shameful thing. It's not something that I need to, like, completely get rid of. I don't think being in a relationship means, like, oh, well, that's it. Like, we're gonna wipe away, like, our social life. That's, you Know what I mean? There's a way to do it.

[Host]

Yeah, we're very social. I guess it just depends on what.

[Sandy]

It depends on what? Totally. Like, do I need to go to the club with my man? I mean, maybe sometimes if we want to, but not, like, not all the time. I think there's just a level of socialization. And with. With Nick, for instance, like, he's way more introverted.

[Nick]

Well, I just have, like, an anti club direction.

[Sandy]

But you wouldn't even want to go out to dinners, Nick. Like, you wouldn't want to go out to dinners. You wouldn't want to go hang out with friends. So it's like, we. And we really had the best time, like, ourselves, you know, hanging out on the couch and having our own, like, dance party and whatever. But it's just. That's a lifestyle thing when you're. When it's a life partner that you do kind of want to be aligned with. Because if not, that's a really big, like, that's a really big difference. But, yeah, it's not just about like, oh, I want to be single because I want to go out. No, I'm. I'll be single until I find the right person.

[Natalie]

I have to ask this. Did you have sex with Junior?

[Sandy]

No. Absolutely not. I will set the record straight right here, right now. Literally nothing happened past a kiss with me and Junior. I know it looks very bad. It looks a lot worse than it was. Junior was a bit performative when it came to certain things. That's my wife. Oh, like, you know, hey, girl, what you doing? Like, hey, babe. He was never calling me babe when the cameras weren't around ever. Like, he was performing a little bit. Yeah, he was. He would never call. Like, it was not the vibe. But that's why it's. It's really difficult for me to, like, see, because I'm like, damn. It really got. You know, it really looks a certain way. But didn't that bother you that he.

[Host]

Was playing it up for the camera?

[Sandy]

You know what? Honestly, I'm like, I'm very new here. We're just like normal humans. I just got thrown into this, and then there's cameras around. You don't really know how it's all gonna look, right? And, you know, we kind of were like, okay, like, we're trial. Like, it's my trial hubby. It's my trial wife whatnot, and, like, really playing into it. But, you know, there were certain things that he was playing up and the guy's night, for instance, with him like, almost insinuating that like, we were sleeping.

[Natalie]

Yeah. Like, you know, question, are you sleeping together in the same bed?

[Sandy]

So I don't know what really happened because I wasn't there, but obviously there's editing and whatnot. And it's like, oh, cliffhanger. But Junior had told me specifically that he was kind of leaving it open ended to be like, oh. And I was like, why the would you do that? Like, that's not something to play around with here. I'm over here in every interview and every conversation being like, we're not sleeping together, we're not hooking up. You know, trying to lay that down because I owe that to myself. And I think he was kind of giving into like the, the drama of it a little bit. And it really me over, like, it. I don't know, it just. That sucks. That's really hard for me because we didn't like, genuinely, you guys, what you see is honestly worse than what it was. And that is the extent of it, period. And yeah, it's just, it's hard.

[Natalie]

Like, Nick, you seemed very uncomfortable during the relationship.

[Nick]

A lot of people are talking. A lot of people are talking about it and it's a lot of like two things. If I don't think it happened regardless of it did or did. It didn't. I don't think it happened. But the perception is that it did. That was my perception after speaking with Sandy. I believe her. I do.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I trust her. I don't really. We're not at a point in life where like, there's anything but.

[Natalie]

She would have a reason.

[Sandy]

Yeah, Like, I trust in you guys. Like, it's, it's.

[Nick]

The relationship is. It's like there is no more of that. It's at this point, like radical honesty with each other about how we can best, you know, figure out what we did wrong in the relationship and move forward. You know, I'm in a new relationship. It's not that part. That ship has sailed. But I think that in the experience, I felt like there was a really heavy connection, regardless of what that meant. Whether it's holding each other at night or loving on each other or being intimate or being physical or even emotional, all of that was unfolding. And when I watched it, I was like, you know, whoa. You know, this is. This, this looks pretty.

[Sandy]

I was too. I was like, what the.

[Nick]

And regardless of if they had sex or not, to me it looked very real. I do believe that it was a real connection. And I also believe that in. It would have been. It would have been. I think everything happens for the right reason. Right. Like, had I not spun and, like, I was completely Zen and we got back together and, like, perhaps did end up with an engagement, and then I saw that, like, then it would have been a whole nother mess of stuff to have to deal with. And, you know, I think everything happens for the right weird, twisted reason in some way. And, like, I. I did feel that we were separating as a couple, and I do think that they both leaned into the experience pretty quickly and. And in a way that wasn't very settling for, you know, for myself to observe. But I do not believe that they had sex.

[Sandy]

With that being said, we didn't do anything, like, at all.

[Natalie]

Sandy, I do apologize for. I mean, we've recapped the show from the start, and I have said several times that I thought that y'all fucked. Obviously, I haven't spoken to you in person, so, you know, for you to look at me and say, like, no, it did not happen, I do believe you. And I can imagine how frustrating and how annoying it must be for everyone in the world to say, you fucked a man, you know, you did it.

[Sandy]

Yep.

[Natalie]

So I am sorry for my part.

[Sandy]

That's okay. I mean, look, here's the thing. I don't really, like, take this type of stuff personally because we're on a TV show. This is what we signed up for. We're putting our life, our relationship out there for people to judge. I'm a big fan of reality shows. I would be like, oh, damn. Like, so when I'm seeing this, I don't blame anybody for thinking that, like, how. Of course. But it's just frustrating because it's like, that's not actually what happened. That's not really. But, you know, I think that's on us for being a bit too, like, leaning into the flirtiness and, you know, kind of leading with that when really, that was like this in terms of our trial marriage and our connection, it was mostly all, like, mental and emotional, truly. And it sucks that, like, you don't get to see any of those conversations because people really are just like, you guys were just here to. To mess around and whatnot. And it's hurtful for me because I really, like. I really gave. I, like, really worked on a lot while we were in there. And I challenged Junior to work on a lot, too. And that's where you hear me say, oh, I'm trying to train you. Like, obviously, that wasn't the right wording in that moment, but, like, I was trying to challenge Junior so much to show up better or either Zana or any other person that he's with. We dug into, like, his childhood, his marriage, and just his mindset of things that he was holding on to. And I was trying to, like, I got into arguments with him over these things. I'm like, you better be making Zana breakfast every morning, because he would make breakfast every damn morning and was very much, like, wanting to just have it for himself. And so there was just a lot of different things that I was challenging him to, you know, think about the partnership over just yourself and the social media conversation, which we don't really see much of.

[Natalie]

But I do also think JR is more @ fault of this perception of the two of you than you are. I think if you were placed with someone else, I don't think people would be speculating on any of that.

[Host]

You know, it was clear that he wanted people to think that, and he wanted people think that he had a big old, you know.

[Sandy]

Yeah.

[Host]

He was peacocking the whole time. Nick, I'm curious. Final question. I know we have to wrap up. What did you learn from that tattoo?

[Nick]

Fortune favors the bold to keep getting more tattoos.

[Host]

I mean, I don't know, but seriously, I mean, honestly, all jokes aside.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Host]

I mean, that's a wild story.

[Nick]

It is wild. And there's no way I knew he had it. I mean, he has. It's tiny on his hands.

[Host]

I don't believe everything happens for a reason. I think happens, and I think we are willing to learn from. Or we're not.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Host]

I mean, so what did you learn from that? Because I hope you learned something to.

[Natalie]

Read the stencil when he puts it on.

[Nick]

Well, it was. I. I wanted both. So this is not, like, it was not some random.

[Natalie]

At some point, you're gonna get the other one.

[Sandy]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I was like, I'm. I'm not.

[Sandy]

I'm either really wanted Fortune favors.

[Nick]

Yeah. I was either gonna get Fortune favorites of bold or Love Conkers all. And then I was in there, like, super emo. I'm like, fucking love Conkers all. Let's do it. Like, this will be. I'll show up. And then I had given him two stencils. I think I slept maybe 20 minutes prior to that. I think you can see in my eyes, I was pretty out of it. Also not the best time to get a tattoo, but. But I have more. I'm going to get more. Like, it doesn't. But I do think that the right tattoo was put on my pocket Maybe.

[Host]

The lesson is don't get, like, a generic saying.

[Sandy]

Yeah, Literally, like.

[Natalie]

Like, Nick also has enjoyed.

[Sandy]

No, no, no.

[Natalie]

Nick also has Enjoy the Ride backwards on his chest so that it looks in the mirror.

[Host]

You know else. Who has that tattoo? Nobody.

[Natalie]

Well, you haven't seen everyone in the world naked anyways. Like. Okay, Marky Diamond.

[Host]

Why are you coming at me right now?

[Sandy]

No, no, no.

[Natalie]

Just saying you're coming at him.

[Host]

He got the same tattoo as his arch rival on accident. You know, I'm just.

[Nick]

I mean, I didn't know he had it, but he's also not my arch rival.

[Host]

I'm just fucking with.

[Nick]

I think it's like. I think anybody would have been into Sandy that was going to date her.

[Natalie]

Yeah, I think he gets way too much fucking credit.

[Sandy]

He deserves.

[Nick]

It's. I think that I was a little concerned about the authenticity from the beginning, and I did express that to her with him or. Yeah, I just. I felt like I was again, you know, part of me was protective and I didn't think that it was, like, necessarily. I don't know. Just didn't feel right. Something felt off, but I don't have. You know, I think there's a lot in this show that's like, people are experiencing this, people are experiencing that, and then we're seeing clips, and then people are saying this. People are saying there's a lot of telephone going on. And then there's the humans that are experiencing trying to figure out if they want to stay together for the rest of their lives.

[Natalie]

Well, I think we definitely want to thank you both for being so vulnerable and so open and especially eunuch, for sharing some of things that you went through and experienced. And I know that probably wasn't easy. So thank you for doing that. I'm sure it's going to help a lot of people.

[Host]

I mean, sitting on this couch together. Props to both of you.

[Sandy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I think it says a lot about, like, our relationship and just like, you know, the. The love and respect that we have for each other as humans, it was a really crazy thing that we went through, and I feel like it kind of brought out the worst in all of it, but, like, for us to be able to come together and do this, I mean, I think it says a lot.

[Host]

Well, thank you guys for coming. I appreciate it. I wish you both nothing but the best. I really do. It's been fun getting to know the people, and it was very fun to watch.

[Nick]

It was.

[Sandy]

If nothing else, you did make your welcome, guys.

[Nick]

You delivered.

[Host]

Yeah, no you could do.

[Sandy]

I'm like Merry Christmas. Thank you Mrs. Claus.

[Nick]

Your back should be sure I need.

[Sandy]

A massage because my back.

[Host]

You guys did carry the season. There is that. Thank you guys for listening. Happy holidays.

[Sandy]

Happy holidays guys.

[Host]

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[Sandy]

Balance and required finance agreement is due this holiday season. Surprise everyone on your list with the.

[Natalie]

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[Host]

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