← The Viall Files
The Viall Files
E866 Ask Nick - My Exclusive Non-Boyfriend w/ Mel Robbins
02:43:51
Welcome back to a special episode of The Viall Files: Ask Nick w/ Mel Robbins! What is Mel's "Let Them" theory and how can it improve your love, relationships, and life as a whole? Our first caller wants to confess her feelings for a friend...
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- [00:00]
Nick
The Val House is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing a budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try that progressive.com progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates prices and coverage match limited by state law not available in all states.
- [00:21]
Mel Robbins
This winter comes to what being ranked the number one state in public arts spending looks like. Experience, world class performances and legendary venues. Learn more@exploreminnesota.com.
- [00:48]
Nick
What'S going on everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of Ask Nick. I am your host, Nick and boy do we have a great episode for you. Normally we just started as, you know, kind of jumping right into our calls, but we have a very special guest today, Mel Robbins. Many of you know about her if you haven't. Mel is someone who talks a lot about the stuff we talk about in terms of like personal growth. She has a great message and so she has a new book out. We wanted to invite Mel on to share a little bit about that. We had a fantastic interview with Mel. So we're going to play the first part of it before our callers and then if you enjoy that conversation, they're going to play the rest of it after our caller. So we didn't want to cut any of the great interview with Mel out, but we just kept talking. We were going to just have it be an ass Nick intro and then, you know, two podcasters kind of went with it. So without further ado, Mel Robbins and your callers, the very special and very talented and informed Mel Robbins is with us to talk about her new book, Let Them. I was really excited to have Mel on. Mel, by the way, welcome.
- [01:53]
Caller
Thank you.
- [01:54]
Nick
Good to be with you. You guys know I talk so much about your energy, protecting your energy, not wasting your energy. And I came across Mel in her book. Many of you probably listened to her show, follow her, probably very excited to have her. But when I find people like you, you know, talking in different ways about similar concepts, it's always interesting to kind of invite people like yourself in to see if there's a kind of a different way to articulate the kind of the same ideas, so to speak, you know. And I find that, you know, like on this show I offer a lot of advice. And I mean, there isn't an episode where I'm not like, I'm not a therapist, I'm an expert. I don't, you know, I kind of disclose. Yeah, neither am I. Yeah. But I find that an ability to take A concept and deliver it in a way for people to digest, you know, because it's, you know, through our lived experiences. And I am curious where you kind of got to this place where you were talking about these things because, you know, I understand that you used to be like a legal analyst on CNN and now you are talking about mental health. You're talking about, you know, things like this in your book. So how did you go from, you know, where you were in your life, having a legal background to talking about this type of stuff and how it's affecting interpersonal relationships and social dynamics and things like that?
- [03:12]
Caller
Simple. I basically fucked up my own life and realized nobody else was going to fix it. And if I wanted things to get better and I wanted to be happier and I wanted to get out of debt and I wanted to have better relationships and I didn't want to blow up my marriage or be an alcoholic or be an asshole that I better figure out how to climb out of the hole I had either fallen into or I had dug for myself, more likely. No, that's how it happened.
- [03:34]
Nick
What was that hole?
- [03:35]
Caller
Oh, which one do you want to talk about?
- [03:36]
Nick
I mean, maybe the one that was kind of like your aha. Like your call it, your wake up call.
- [03:40]
Caller
Well, I think the thing that happened that was the biggest turning point in my life because there have been a number of them. And it takes us back 15 years. I was 41, so just a couple years younger than you are right now. My husband and I, we'd been together for 30 years, married for 28 at the time. We had three kids under the age of 10. And my husband had gone into the restaurant business. And the first one was great little pizza joint. And so like complete idiots, we cashed out our life savings, took out credit cards, home equity lines, because what could go wrong? And everything went wrong. And I found myself 800 grand in debt, liens on the house, barely able to put gas on the tank. Friends and family had invested and people were relying on the paycheck from the restaurant. Chris wasn't getting paid. We had no money. We were facing like I. It was unbelievable. Like never in a million years had I ever imagined a scenario where I would lose everything that I cared about. And in these moments, what's interesting is that if you ever find yourself in a moment in life where you are stuck, whether you don't like where your health is or you find yourself in a string of relationships where you're getting treated poorly or you're getting looked over at work or you just don't know what you want to do with your life. The truth is, we all know what we need to do. Like, even when life was crushing down on me. Nick, I knew I shouldn't be drinking for bourbon Manhattans every night. I knew that when the alarm rang, I should get out of bed and get the kids ready and get them on the bus. I knew I should call my parents and ask for help. I knew I should tell my friends what was going on. I knew I should look for a job because that would help. I knew I shouldn't be screaming at Chris. But I couldn't stop myself from doing things that were self destructive. And I couldn't push myself for some reason to do the simple things that I knew I needed to do. And this is the crux of all of my work. So I find myself in a moment in my life where I knew what I could be doing. I could stop drinking. I could look for a job. I could control my emotions. I could focus on the kids. I could stop screaming at my husband. I could ask for help. I didn't do any of it. Because knowing what you need to do is the first part. That's the easy part.
- [05:53]
Nick
Sure, yeah.
- [05:55]
Caller
The hard part is how do you make yourself do it? And this is hard because we all just let our emotions dictate what we do. And, you know, everybody talks about motivation and willpower and all this bullshit. Motivation is complete garbage because it's never there when you need it. Motivation means feeling like doing something. And if motivation were on demand, everybody would have six pack abs and a million dollars in the bank and the world's best business and a wonderful marriage. And the reason why it is hard to change is because we are hardwired to default to what feels easy right now. Because we are dictated by our emotions and our feelings in the moment. And that was me. Like the alarm would go off every single morning. Nick. I knew I needed to get out of bed. I knew that hitting the snooze button six times every morning and laying there like a human pot roast marinating in all my problems and fears was not gonna magically solve them. I knew that as the bills were piling up on that counter that if I ignored them, it didn't mean some unicorn was going to fly in and suddenly pay them. But I didn't feel like getting out of bed. I was scared to open the bills. And I stayed in this trap of this tension of knowing that I had to do something, but I couldn't access the feelings of courage or motivation or whatever it is, or even just this hope that it would make a difference. And over the last 15 years, I think that's the single thing that I've noticed, having 21 million followers, this massive podcast, all of the speaking that I've done around the world, the books that I've written, the research that I do, is that if you are missing hope, if you actually don't think this little thing is gonna work for you, you will not do it. And so for me, lying in bed every morning, I was caught between knowing what I needed to do and just not feeling like doing it. And it all changed one night when I was watching tv. And I don't know if you've ever been in a moment. Maybe it was on the Bachelor, maybe it was after the Bachelor, where you actually give yourself a pep talk. And, you know, it's one thing for you and I to talk. It's a whole nother thing when you give yourself that talk and you're like, all right, that's it. Tomorrow morning, it's the new U, Mel. No more drinking. You know, you're not gonna be, like, screaming at people. You're not gonna do this, you're not gonna do that. When I was a walking red flag in my 20s, I would have that talk. No more sleep around, no more cheating on people, no more lying. You know, you gotta. You gotta study, Mel, and not pull all these all nighters. And so I'm having this talk with myself at 41, and I'm listing off things. You gotta stop drinking, stop saying, you gotta find a job. You gotta do this. You gotta do this. And I end it by saying, by God, woman, when that alarm rings, you have to get your ass out of bed. And at that very moment, Nick, a rocket ship launched across the television screen. And it gave me this crazy idea. I thought, oh, my God, that's it. Tomorrow morning, when that alarm rings, Mel, you're gonna launch yourself out of bed so fast that you're not gonna be in that bed when that anxiety pins you there like a gravity blanket.
- [08:52]
Nick
Sure.
- [08:53]
Caller
Now, I had had four bourbon Manhattans that night, so that's probably what gave me the idea, right? I actually think it was divine intervention. But the next morning, it was a Tuesday morning in February outside of Boston, Massachusetts, and you are one decision away from a different life. One decision is the first domino that falls and tips everything in a whole new direction. And the cool thing about dominoes is that the first one knocks over the second one, but the two together can actually knock Over a domino that's like 10 times the size, force, multiplier. Yes. Because of the momentum of the forward action. And so there was a decision that I made that morning. And I'm going to explain this, because once you see this, you will never unsee this. There is a habit that we all have that is holding you back from making the changes and showing up with courage and doing the simple small things that don't feel so simple in the moment that change everything. And that habit is hesitation. And so the alarm rings, right? And I immediately remembered that dumb idea of launching out of bed. But then I made this fatal mistake. I paused and I hesitated. And when you stop and you hesitate, when you know what you should do or you have an impulse, it opens up this 5 second window of reflection where you now start thinking about what you need to do instead of doing what you need to do. And as you start thinking inside this little window of time comes, excuse doubt, anxiety, procrastination, and what's happening, I know this now, I did not know this then, is that in this little moment where you're thinking, it's cold, it's dark, I don't feel like it, how the hell is this gonna help? I don't want to. And you start reaching for the snooze button. Cause that's always what you've done. You go from this part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex where you're in charge, to defaulting to what you always do. All of the self sabotaging behavior takes over in less than five seconds. In fact, I believe just like if you drop food on the floor, you got five seconds to pick it up or the floor contaminates the food, your brain does the same thing. You have five seconds to move on any idea or your brain will contaminate your will to move. And so I counted that morning. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And something crazy happened. I stood up. And that was the beginning of a completely different life. And it was the beginning of a skill that everybody needs to learn and that everybody can learn. And that skill is the ability to push yourself. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. To do something that is scary or that makes you nervous or that you don't feel like doing. Because when you learn how to override your emotion in the moment by taking the actions that align with what you want, you now understand the secret to everything. See the people that have what you want in life, they're not special, they're not different than you.
- [11:34]
Nick
They're just willing.
- [11:35]
Caller
Yeah, well it's not even willing. They know that if you can get out of bed on a cold morning, you can do anything. If you cannot look at your phone first thing, you can do anything. If you can not pick up the alcohol because you said you weren't going to drink tonight, you can do anything because you are exhibiting a skill of being able to override emotion and excuse and fear and doubt and everything else that we label it and take the actions that align with what you want. And that is the same skill that will make you happier. It's the same skill that will get you paid more at work. It is the same skill that will allow you to walk across the bar and walk up to somebody instead of standing there like an idiot in the corner wishing somebody would come over and then telling yourself some story that Nobody likes you. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. You can push through the things that are holding you back and you can push yourself toward the things that you want. And that's exactly how I have gone from 800,000 in debt, struggling with drinking, raging at my husband, to building one of the most successful businesses in this space on the planet as a 56 year old woman. And how I did it wasn't glamorous, it was fucking grueling. Because, yes, you change your life with one decision, but then you gotta wake up every day and prove it to yourself. Doing the small, tedious, invisible, boring crap that nobody wants to do. And there's so much research on this, it's really fascinating. Like, if you're somebody that starts a lot of stuff, you know, you don't have trouble, like I did, starting, you have trouble staying with it. There's really interesting research around this. There's a fitness app called Strava. So anybody you know, if you're listening to us right now and you're a runner, you'll know that app. Well, they've done this crazy study where they've crunched like 800 million pieces of data and they have determined the exact day that most people quit on a new fitness goal. And it's day 19.
- [13:25]
Nick
19?
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Caller
Yep, it's called Quitters Day.
- [13:28]
Nick
Why? Why 19?
- [13:29]
Caller
Well, the reason why is because when you first start something, it's fun and exciting. Like, let's just take fitness, right? We buy all the stuff, we join the gym. You're going, you're kind of getting the result. By day 19, you're not seeing the result.
- [13:43]
Nick
Or you plateaued a little bit. Yeah.
- [13:44]
Caller
Or you plateaued a little bit. And now you're bored. And now the emotions you're Combating is you're not patient, you're bored, you are tired of doing the grueling thing and you haven't developed the muscle yet of just ignoring that. And five, four, three, two, one, Sticking with it. And that's the point. This point where it gets boring and you're not quite seeing the spike and the dopamine hit isn't as great because you're getting used to it. That's the point that really separates people that talk about what they want from people who actually stick with it. And I do think that 99% of success and achieving what you want in life is simply not quitting.
- [14:26]
Nick
Yeah, no, I'd agree. I mean, I'll tell a lot of people, especially out in la, like, it's just a long game.
- [14:31]
Caller
It's everywhere.
- [14:32]
Nick
Being successful like in LA is outlasting people.
- [14:34]
Caller
Well, dude, I live in Vermont. I've been at this 15 years, so I don't live here. And it's still a long game. It's true everywhere. And it's just difficult here or difficult in cities or difficult if you spend way too much of your precious time staring at everybody else's life online. It's just difficult because it's in your face. And so you get to choose, though, and this is what we're going to talk about, because my work is basically in two categories. The first one is the tools you can use to get out of your own way to push yourself. And the five second rule, there is nothing better. This is spread around the world. It is used in all kinds of settings, clinical settings. I know over a thousand people have stopped themselves from committing suicide by counting. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And asking for help is used by psychiatrists. It's super effective with helping people reprogram triggers associated with ptsd, ocd. Pediatricians use it to help kids with anxiety because it is a pattern interrupter. And one thing I want you to hear is that if you feel broken or lost in life, you're not broken. You have patterns of behavior that have probably been in place for a long time. Patterns that other people taught you, which means you're not responsible for those patterns, but you have patterns of behavior that are broken based on where you are now. And the truth about human beings is that we are just wired to learn patterns. And if you don't break a pattern and replace it, a pattern repeats.
- [15:56]
Nick
So like, just like, for example, like one day you count 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, maybe you break up the pattern that day. But you're saying you need to Incorporate it with something else. Otherwise the next day you'll just be susceptible to Absolutely.
- [16:09]
Caller
And here's the other thing I'm going to tell you. So I invented something to help me get out of bed. I have been getting out of bed when the alarm rings now for 15 years. It is still not a habit. You want to know why I don't like it? See, I think all the research around habits, bullshit. You know, you hear the people say it takes 21 days. I think that's only if you like it. You know, there are a lot of things in life that are not a habit of mine. I just do them. Like, I don't like unloading the dishwasher. Five foot three, I do it. I don't like picking up the dog poop in the yard. I do it. You're either the kind of person that in a moment where you know you need to do something, you don't stop and second guess yourself, you do it, or you stop and you think about it. And I'm not talking big decisions, because big decisions you should stop and think about and you should really think about the pros and the cons and then align with your values or whatever you want and then make the decision. Decision. But small things. Like, a lot of people have a hard time speaking up at work because they're nervous about looking stupid. And so if you sit in a meeting and you say because you're introverted or maybe because you are just nervous and you feel like an imposter there, if you have something to say in a meeting, there's two people. People who say it or people who stop and think about saying it and then beat themselves up later because they didn't say it. Sure.
- [17:26]
Nick
I mean, I'm thinking about this right now and I'm thinking, I've been both people. I mean, I'm sure most people have been both people. We have all.
- [17:32]
Caller
Yes. And so if you think about the most famous tagline in the world, it's Nike, just do it. And if you think about those three words, just do it, what is the most powerful of those three words?
- [17:44]
Nick
Just.
- [17:45]
Caller
Yes. Imagine if their tagline had been do it. That's not that inspiring.
- [17:49]
Nick
Sure, that makes sense.
- [17:51]
Caller
Just do it is acknowledging your humanity. It's acknowledging your dreams and your goals and the things that you're capable of. See, Nike knows that you're standing on the sidelines in the game of life. They see you questioning yourself. They see how much you want to jump in the game. And so they are calling you through the Doubt and through the excuses and inviting you to jump in just is the most powerful part because most of us are stopping ourselves right now. The only obstacle that you have is the ones that you're placing in front of yourself. And that brings me to the second part of what I focus on in my work. Because the five second rule is your own personal just kick in the ass. It's like instant motivation, instant confidence. It pushes you through in those small quiet moments where you give up on yourself.
- [18:41]
Nick
I was hearing you talk and I'm curious if you experience this too. I find that when people listen to advice, whether it's this show or your show, they have a way of interpreting it in the manner in which serves them best in that moment. You know, it's like, well, you told me to do this. I'm like, yeah, well, I didn't mean it like that, you know, and I'm thinking about like the kind of the. Just do it. The, you know, just get up. In kind of the context of a lot of our listeners on the show who are out there dating, seeking love, hanging out with, in a situationship with someone, they've been wasting a lot of time. A lot of the stuff we talk about this show is, I mean, I guess it is doing something, but it's a lot of not doing something.
- [19:18]
Caller
Yeah.
- [19:19]
Nick
Not investing in things that aren't serving you. Not reaching out to the person you know you shouldn't reach out to. Not ruminating over the relationship that's been over for four months, but you're just choosing to mentally live in that space.
- [19:33]
Caller
Yeah.
- [19:33]
Nick
How do you. And when you, you're giving advice, I mean, you can't really control how people think and apply what you're teaching them. But yeah, I find that that often it's like even like therapy, it's like you can, you know, it's like, well, a therapist, blah, blah, blah. It's like, I don't think your therapist meant it that way type of thing. You know, it's like, how do you make sure how as people, when we hear advice, how do we ensure that when we're taking this advice, we don't. Like, I'm thinking out loud. Like the 5, 4, 3, 2, one could be applied to be like, oh, well, Mel told me to text them kind of thing. Well, I should just do it, you.
- [20:04]
Caller
Know, the let them theory is what you need.
- [20:06]
Nick
What is the let them theory?
- [20:07]
Caller
So the let them theory is the single most powerful thing I've ever discovered. It is a simple mindset tool that immediately reveals what's in your control and what's not. And any psychologist will tell you when you spend time and energy worrying about or trying to manage something that is not in your control and never will be, it creates stress, frustration and insecurity for you. And the number one thing that will never be in your control is what another human being thinks, says, does or feels. Period. And the biggest problem for people that are dating is that you are pouring all your time and energy and giving all of your power to other people and you will never be able to control them. And the irony of this whole thing, and it's so fucking sad, is that you actually have all the power, but you're giving it away. And so if you're in a situationship or if you keep sleeping with somebody who slinks out the door like a cat in the morning, the problem isn't them. The problem is you. And you're going to use the let them theory very quickly to learn the world's simplest and most powerful boundary that you can use with two simple words. Let them. People reveal who they are and where you stand in their life based on their behavior. Let them reveal who they are. It is our inability to see people clearly through their behavior that keeps you in situations that are beneath you, that are like complete turn off. Like there's nothing confusing about people's behavior. What is confusing is the way you interpret it and the fantasy that you live in in your head because you refuse to let people be who they are.
- [21:38]
Nick
So how do you let them? Because.
- [21:41]
Caller
Say it. Let them. There's two steps. First you say let them. Anytime somebody's pissing you off or they're you're questioning, like what they're doing or they are. You're worried about them or you're up in your head about something. You're giving your power to them because you're worried about what they're thinking. You can't control that. You're worried about when they're going to text you. You can't control that. You are worried about how they feel about you. You can't control that. So let them. Let them confuse you. Let them leave. Let them string you along. They're not the problem. The fact that you're tolerating this is because step two is let me, let me remind myself that the power isn't over there. The power is always right here with me. Let me remind myself that I am always in control of three things. I can control what I think. I can control what I do next. I can control how I'm gonna process my emotions about this. I get to choose who I pour time and energy into. And any time and energy you're spending with somebody who is not giving you the respect or the time or the treatment that you deserve, you get to choose if you're going to continue to do that.
- [22:39]
Nick
And how do you help motivate yourself? Because I'm thinking about what you're saying, and it resonates a lot with what I tell my audience. I just find that a lot of people won't execute, so to speak.
- [22:51]
Caller
Well, that's on them, sure.
- [22:52]
Nick
Totally. But I'm just saying, like, for the people listening who are stuck just making the same mistake over and over and.
- [23:00]
Caller
Over, if you want to be happy and what you're doing isn't making you happy, at some point, you have to take responsibility for your life.
- [23:07]
Nick
So for the people listening, you're just saying it's just a matter of when's enough enough for them.
- [23:11]
Caller
Yeah. Because people only change when they feel like it.
- [23:14]
Nick
Sure.
- [23:15]
Caller
And what I found in researching this book is that there's an enormous connection between pain and. And your desire to change. And the reason why pain is important is because your brain is wired to move away from things that are painful, and you are wired to move toward what is easy. Texting back. The person who only texts you when they're bored is easy saying, let them, and recognizing that if somebody wanted to see you, they would make plans. If somebody is texting you all the time and it's never going anywhere, you're a convenience. I got news for you. You're not. They're not interested in you. And so that's really easy for people because it feels good. It distracts you from the fact that you're single and you're home again on another weekend. But there is this saying in addiction, and a bunch of the experts talked about this in the book, that people only get sober when being drunk is harder than facing the things that you're afraid to face. And a lot of us are terrified to be single. And I understand that if you've wasted a year of your life trying to insert yourself in somebody else's life, if you have accepted less than you deserve for a while, it is terrifying to admit to yourself that you've wasted another year, and now you're gonna have to step back out there alone and get back out there, and it seems easier to try to make this work. And it's the refusal to see someone else's behavior as the truth. And then to remind Yourself. So let them, let them date a ton of other people and not want to put a label on it, which means they don't actually like you. That means they want to fuck other people. That's what that means. Sorry. It's true. But here's the thing. Understanding it as a concept is different than having a tool to be able to prompt yourself to act with the truth. And I never had tools. Like, I understood, I needed to push myself. I understood, just do it, but without. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. I didn't know how.
- [25:08]
Nick
Well, if you like what you've heard and you want to hear more again, we're going to finish this interview with Mel after these callers. How's it going?
- [25:18]
Caller
Hi, I'm good. I'm Hallie. I'm 25 and I have feelings for my friend who has a long distance girlfriend. And I don't know if I should tell him or how to handle it.
- [25:28]
Nick
Okay, all right, tell me about this friendship.
- [25:30]
Caller
Okay, so we met through work. We were interns together. And then we like started our actual jobs and everything and we were just like casual friends for, for a couple years. And then about a year and a half ago, me and my ex boyfriend broke up and we just started getting closer. Like his girlfriend's long distance, so it was very platonic. Like I was never even really attracted to him. So he was kind of just a good friend to like give me advice and like be there for me during my breakup. Like literally at the office, like we'd be getting coffee and stuff like that. It wasn't like hanging out on our own or anything. And then over time it just kind of developed into like a closer bond. And I feel like the last maybe six months we've just been hanging out a lot more in actual like friendship ways. I don't know. Like, I think it was probably two months ago. I was just out with him after like a work event and it just kind of hit me and I was like, oh, I like think I have feelings for this guy. And I told my friends and they were like, yeah, like we can tell. And my friends are like my like family basically, so they know me so well. And they were like, yeah, like we obviously have known that. And I was like, okay. And it's just like been this weird thing because I don't know, like him and his girlfriend have been long distance their whole relationship. They were friends when they were in high school. And I mean, I used to like talk to him about his girlfriend and give him advice and always very genuine because again, I didn't see him that way, so it was easy to be that friend. But now it's getting to the point where I'm like, okay, I can't be disingenuous and talk to him about this. And he really doesn't bring her up to me anymore. And it's really awkward. But I know that they're talking about having her move here. And it's been kind of a long time where she's supposed to move here but hasn't. And he kind of told me he was giving her an ultimatum, like, if she doesn't move here, they're going to break up. And I don't know if him telling me that is what made me kind of acknowledge that I've had feelings for him, because I was like, oh, this could end. And, like, it could actually be a thing. But, yeah, now he's going to go home and, like, see her for, like, the holidays, like, with his family and everything. And I kind of think that's where they're either going to, like, break up or make the plan for her to move. So my friend was like, oh, are you go, like.
- [27:34]
Nick
Like, plant the seed?
- [27:35]
Caller
Yeah. She was like, you should tell him, like, because what if he moves here? And she was like, what? Like, how will feel if she moves here, basically? And I literally started crying and I was like, oh, my God. Like, I'm down bad. So, yeah, it just made me realize, like, I think I need to do something, but I'm also, like, one of those people, like, when I feel the urgency to do something, I usually take that as a red flag. Like, I usually think things should happen naturally and, like, whatever. But I also don't want, like, her to move here. And then, I don't know, like, I'll always kind of wonder, I guess. And I know, like, from. I've listened to the show for so long, like, I know you always say this, but, like, the friendship is really ruined already. And I'm aware of that. So I'm not, like, scared of ruined. Ruining the friendship. I guess I'm just like, I know it's a complicated situation from his side, and I don't know. I don't know if it's the right thing to do. I'm not someone who wants to hit on someone that has a girlfriend. So the other thing, too, is just I'm in a phase right now where I'm really not dating. So that's the other part of it. It's not like I'm looking for a boyfriend necessarily. So it's like, I wouldn't go on this timeline if there wasn't the impending. Is your girlfriend gonna move here? Because I'm really trying to. I'm rejecting dates. I'm not dating right now. But this feels different.
- [28:43]
Nick
This isn't dating. This is you feeling.
- [28:46]
Caller
Yeah.
- [28:47]
Nick
Feelings for someone that you have some kind of relationship with. And dating is more like the willingness to meet strangers in the hopes that maybe something will develop. So to me, this is a very nuanced decision. Right. Because I'm not for homewrecking, so to speak.
- [29:04]
Caller
Yeah.
- [29:05]
Nick
I'm for respecting other people's relationships. Right. But I don't think telling him how you feel is a violation of either of those two things. I think your actions, you know. So I guess my question to you is your interactions with this guy forgetting about how you feel. Right. Let's assume, you know, but do you think. I mean, obviously if his girlfriend knew you had feelings, she would be uncomfortable with you two hanging out. But from. From his point of view, without reading into how you think he could be feeling about you, not. We just don't know how he feels about you. So not knowing how he feels about you, from your point of view about his actions in your two interactions, would his girlfriend have any reason to be upset with him? Does that make sense? Yeah.
- [29:56]
Caller
So we don't, like, flirt. Like, it's not flirty, but I don't think if I was her, I would like it. Like, we hang out alone a lot.
- [30:03]
Nick
Like, I think you hang out alone a lot.
- [30:05]
Caller
We'll go get, like, brunch together on the weekend. Or, like, we'll smoke weed together and, like, just go for a walk or something. And, like, we have, like, really good conversations. So it's always the dynamic of, like, talking and, like, doing something.
- [30:17]
Nick
But what are you talking about?
- [30:18]
Caller
Just, like, life. Like, I think we view the world in a really similar way. Like, we both kind of had a hard upbringing in some ways, just, like, been through a lot. And, like, I think we see the world in really similar ways and, like, are both really trying to, like, make our lives happy and, like, figure out who we want to be and, like, whatever in our 20s. And, like, I just. We align on a lot of things and are very compatible as, like, humans. But we don't, like, flirt. I'm not, like, hitting on, like. And that's one thing. Like, my roommates will be like, maybe you should be like. And see if he reacts to it. But I'm like, I'm not going to do that.
- [30:51]
Nick
Well, that's good. But do he. Has he flirted with you at all?
- [30:54]
Caller
Well, like, so one thing that's really weird that happened is we went on a trip together with, like, friends, but it ended up being, like, a couple and me and him.
- [31:03]
Nick
Where was the girlfriend?
- [31:05]
Caller
Like, I don't know. And, like, he just doesn't really talk about her that much anymore. So, like, it used to be when we were friends, like, it was a conversation. Like, I'd be like, yeah, like, you should do this. Like, trying to make the relationship. Relationship better. And now, like, they don't talk. So I have no idea. But, like, if everyone I told that to was like, why are you going on this trip? And I was like, well, he invited me. And at first I didn't know it was going to be, like, those people. And then that was what it was, and it was just, like, weird. And, like, nothing happened. It wasn't like that. But, like, as a girl, like, I would never want my boyfriend, like, going on a trip like that, you know?
- [31:36]
Nick
And did you ever bring it up to him? Did you ever ask? No.
- [31:39]
Caller
And I thought about saying, like, does she know about. Like, is this weird for you? But, I mean, I didn't. Maybe it would have been a good opportunity to do it, but I honestly didn't even know at that point that I really had the feeling. So I was kind of like, okay, this is fine. It's whatever. But then once I realized, I was like, yeah, retrospectively, that was really weird.
- [31:54]
Nick
I'm foretelling him, okay.
- [31:55]
Caller
And if I do, like, I guess my other thing because, like, everyone's been telling me I just should just say it, but, like, I don't know how. And that's, like, kind of what I also want your advice on is, like, if I'm going to say it, like, I'm not going to do anything. Like, I want him to just, like, have the information and do what he wants with it, I guess. Like. And I kind of thought you would say that because, like, I watch the show enough, but I'm really nervous about how to do it. Like, when to even say it.
- [32:17]
Nick
Before we get into that, I do want to make one thing clear. Are you very. Are you 100% prepared to say to. To end this relationship?
- [32:25]
Caller
I don't know. That's the hardest thing about it. Like, I've been saying, like, yeah, like, the friendship's over. Like, if his girlfriend moves here, like, our dynamic won't be the same at all anyways. So it's kind of like, it's just a matter of time. But then, like, one of my friends said to me too, she's like, what if this is like, more of a fleeting thing than you realize? And then you, like, mess up the friendship when you could have just, like, let it ride, like, see what happens kind of.
- [32:45]
Nick
Yeah, it's possible, but let's just, you know, you're, I'm assuming, a straight heterosexual woman, and he is a straight heterosexual man. This friendship has an end date regardless. You know what I'm saying?
- [32:58]
Caller
Yeah, exactly. That's what is, 100%.
- [33:00]
Nick
And that's like your question is, is, are you willing to end this friendship as soon as today? Let's say you were. Let's say you get off the phone with me today and you shoot your shot and you don't get the answer you want, you know, and there's an argument to be made being like, I don't know, I enjoy the guy's company. I know it has a. An expiration date, but, you know, I'm just going to enjoy it while it's a ro. Because I like smoking weed. The guy. I enjoy our conversations. But also the question is, is how are you going to feel about that? The alternative is, is not telling him. Right. Has your ability to enjoy his company diminished since realizing you have feelings? Yeah, it has.
- [33:38]
Caller
Because I don't want to, like, do this. Like, I feel weird. I feel like I can't be myself in the same way because I'm, like, holding part of it back. And, like, that's not how I am.
- [33:46]
Nick
So to answer your friend's question, is it possible your feelings are fleeting and this temporary thing that you're feeling about him for who knows what reasons, and that you will come to find out that really you do more respect him as a friend and you don't know why you had romantic feelings for him at the time, but you don't anymore? Is that possible? Sure. But I don't know. You already aren't enjoying his company as much as you used to because you do have feelings now. You don't know how long those feelings are going to last, if they are, in fact, fleeting. And my guess is it's probably never going to be what it was.
- [34:24]
Caller
Yeah, 100%. That's kind of what I'm starting to realize is it's not that friendship anyways. So, like, I kind of have nothing to lose. I guess the other thing is, like, if she doesn't move here, like, I mean, if they break up, then, like, I don't know, like, then I guess.
- [34:40]
Nick
How long have they been together?
- [34:41]
Caller
Like, two years. Fully long distance.
- [34:43]
Nick
Okay.
- [34:44]
Caller
Also for context, like. Like, it's a different country that she lives in. So, like, they see each other, like, three, four times a year. It's not, like, long distance, like a couple hour drive. Like, they really don't see each other a lot. And, like, there's been points where, like, I think it was gonna end. He, like, moved to the States, like, from the country he lives in and, like, went to college here and, like, just kind of, like, made his way. So that's like, something I really like about him too, is we're just kind of similar in that way of just, like, grinding and, like, making our lives happen.
- [35:11]
Nick
He's fully committed to the American life, so to speak.
- [35:14]
Caller
I don't know. Like, that's another thing. But also, like, I don't know if I am. Like, there's been talk of moving to, like, Europe, which is something I've always wanted to do. And, like, sure, we really do align in, like, what our lives look like. And I don't know. I don't want to, like, do it based on that because I'm only 25. I think, like, so many things can change, but I have thought about that. That part of it. Like, it's a. There is a cultural thing there.
- [35:34]
Nick
Well, okay. So anyways, I'm. I'm still in favor of telling him to be clear, you know, for all the people who are listening who are losing their mind and be like, how could you tell her to, like, shoot your shot with a guy in a relationship? It is not your job to protect his relationship. It is your job to respect his relationship. You communicating your feelings isn't being disrespectful to that relationship. That is just being honest with him about how you feel and giving him the opportunity to explore his feelings because, you know, his behavior in your friendship doesn't, I agree, doesn't align with how I would conduct myself in a committed relationship. But, you know, so it is important for you, if you want to maintain your integrity in this situation, is to. Let's say you shoot your shot. You don't get the answer you want, there's a good chance he's going to want to keep hanging out with you. And at that point, would you still be willing to be like, I just don't think that's appropriate anymore, given, like, you know what I just admitted to you.
- [36:28]
Caller
Yeah, yeah, I do think. I'm like, yeah, I think I can. If I tell him I'm gonna be Kind of like, I need distance. If he's like, no, sorry. Like, I love my girlfriend. Like, I would definitely be like, okay, I need, like, some space from the friendship. And, like, maybe I get over my feelings and we can have, like, like, the friend group friendship that I have. But, like, I wouldn't. I think if I say it, I know it's kind of like we don't have the dynamic we used to have anymore.
- [36:51]
Nick
Do you think you've made it completely unobvious to him that you have feelings? I mean, it's obvious to your friends.
- [36:58]
Caller
Like, I think so, because, like, I didn't even, like, realize it really, till so recently. And I feel like since I've realized it, I've only seen him, like, twice in group settings, so it's been easier to, like, conceal. But I also don't know. And, like, the one time, like, when I realized it, like, in that instance, we were literally, like, like, on the street, like, in the city we live in, like, smoking a joint, like, laughing and, like, bantering. And I was like. And when it hit me, like, looking back, I'm like, I don't know how he could have, like, not felt what I was feeling because it felt so strong to me. And, like, I've had so many relationships, and, like, I have guy friends. Like, I don't have that connection with my guy friends. It's not like. It's like, I have my girls. Like, that's what I care about. So it was like, I don't know. I just am like, I don't get how he could not know this. But also, we've been friends for however many years of me being, like, very platonic. So I could see how maybe he's like, oh, she just doesn't think of me like that. And so maybe he's not thinking of it like that. Like, he's like, oh, she's like a bro, whatever.
- [37:55]
Nick
But I imagine you've stalked his girlfriend on social media. Yeah.
- [38:00]
Caller
Yeah.
- [38:01]
Nick
How do you compare? Do you look like her? Do you not look like her?
- [38:04]
Caller
I mean, we're similar vibes, like, hair and stuff. Like, I don't want to say I'm, like, prettier because, like, I think everyone's beautiful in their own ways. But I think maybe in, like, a classical sense, I'm prettier.
- [38:15]
I don't know.
- [38:15]
Nick
Okay. All right.
- [38:17]
Caller
It's hard to say. I don't know. My friends are like, yeah, but.
- [38:20]
Nick
Well, sure. I mean, of course. But I mean, I just. I'm curious if, like, if you were A slim, petite blonde, so to speak. And his girlfriend is a curvy brunette.
- [38:33]
Caller
No, we're similar vibes. Like, we have same hair color. Like, similar sizes. That kind of thing. Yeah, for sure.
- [38:39]
Nick
Yeah. If I were to told you you have a 20% chance of him of getting the answer you want, would you still shoot your shot?
- [38:45]
Caller
I don't know. I kind of wanted you to just tell me. Like, do it. Don't do it.
- [38:48]
Nick
No, I mean, I. I think you should do it. I. I don't think the odds really matter. I'm just trying to prepare you for the. I mean, I think you have better odds not getting the answer that you want. I think guys aren't as clever or as smart or in tune with their emotions to. To. To not demonstrate how they feel often. I do think it's weird he's talking about her less and less. I do think the trip you guys went on together, I would never have done that.
- [39:16]
Caller
You know, I also will say, though, like, I know I'm saying it's like. Like, this is from my perspective. Like, my friends will be like, he's in love with you. Like, we see it. Like, they're friends with him too. They're like, he's obsessed with you. Like, and he'll, like, grab me and, like, hug me and, like, do things. But, like, I guess it's flirty and that. Like, maybe he does that, but I don't initiate it back because I'm, like, not like that. But I'm not gonna say. It's like, he's not showing anything. Like, that's probably not true. Like, my friends would be like. Like, that's a lie. Like, if they heard me saying that. Because I do think he shows some signs.
- [39:44]
Nick
Do you think your friends are fairly objective? I feel like, yeah.
- [39:49]
Caller
Yeah, they are. They're, like, not girls that are gonna, like, they tell we're very close. They tell it to me straight. Like, if they're like, he's not into it, you're crazy. Like, they'll say that to me.
- [39:57]
Nick
Well, shoot your shot. I mean, I. You know, there's no. Listen, we can spitball here and workshop what you should say, but it's not gonna be how you say it that's gonna make the difference. You know what I'm saying?
- [40:08]
Caller
Do you think it's weird? Like, can we, like, talk? Like. Like. Because I don't know if I'm gonna see him before he leaves. If I don't, like, initiate that because I have plans the next, like, two weekends.
- [40:17]
Nick
Yeah, ask him to get together.
- [40:18]
Caller
Like, I don't know. I don't know how serious to make it or if I should try to make it. Like, we're already hanging out and I just bring it up.
- [40:23]
Nick
I'm thinking about the time when I've had girlfriends confess to me that they were in love with me or liked me or had feelings for me. One in particular. I was. Yeah. I mean, I was a long, long time ago. And I had a. I did have a crush on this girl and I thought. And she was beautiful. But at the time in which she admitted feelings to me, I just. I wasn't receiving it. Yeah, I remember her crying in the car. We were in it. We were sitting in her car. I was in the driver's seat. And then she just started crying. It was so awkward.
- [40:51]
Caller
Oh, my God, that is not helping.
- [40:56]
Nick
Anyways, Yeah, I don't know. Listen, that. That's a matter of, like, what. What are you. What are you most comfortable with? Because I. Again, whether you write them a let send him a text or FaceTime them or do it in person, I really ultimately don't think it matters. I think it's just. This is about letting him know. This is about. Right. Like, you two clearly have had a relationship. You guys are clearly spending quality time together. And despite, like, not flirting and granted, again, it's. It's his job to protect the relationship. Like, you know, like you said, you went on a. You went on a double date trip. It's a couple's trip. It felt like, like, but, you know, no lines were crossed or whatever. He invited you. You didn't even understand. Like, you know, it's like, okay, that was. That's on him. You didn't, you know, what are you supposed to do in that situation? Right?
- [41:43]
Caller
And, yeah, and I even said, like, is it weird if I go? And he was like, no, please come. Like, it'll be so fun.
- [41:47]
Nick
Yeah. So I, you know, I don't know, it's just kind of your comfort level. This is about planting the seed so that just in case, you know, the hope here is that, you know, he's having the same conversation we're having with a buddy or a friend or whatever, being like, I think I kind of like her, but I have this girlfriend, I don't know, and I don't want to ru my friendship or make it, you know, and the hope is, is that you're going to say something and he might. I doubt very much it's going to be like, yeah, me too. Immediately.
- [42:15]
Caller
Yeah. I don't think that either. I think it's more about planting the seed. Like he's really in the mindset of like figuring out like if she's going to move here and stuff. So like, I know, like it's probably going to be like a shock first of all. And I think it's also going to be like him thinking about it. But like, I kind of want to plant the seed before he leaves. So if he leaves and he like misses me, then it's like a good sign and maybe that helps me.
- [42:35]
Nick
Why don't you just get su super stone together and tell them?
- [42:38]
Caller
I know, that's what I was thinking. I just like, unfortunately I have friggin plans, of course, like the next two weekends. So I can't like, because usually like on Sundays we'll like hang out and just like smoke weed, go for a walk, get food, whatever.
- [42:48]
Nick
You can't hang on a weeknight? Can hang out on school night.
- [42:51]
Caller
No, we can. I literally, I'm not lying, I actually have plans every night next week. I just. Because I'm fitting stuff in before I go home. But maybe I'll try to be like, like cancel something and be like, let's hang out one night.
- [43:03]
Nick
Yeah. Melissa, like hypnosis.
- [43:05]
Caller
I know, I know this sounds like ridiculous.
- [43:07]
Nick
Well, no, I mean, listen, I, I understand it because you know, part of your brain's thinking, well, do I really want to cancel for something that probably isn't going to go my way anyways? You know, that's, that's the fear in you talking. If you're gonna do this, you need to own this decision. And if you're gonna do this, then you need to realize that this is a potentially a life changing decision that you're making. You know, you're not, I'm assuming, right? Like you're not doing like, who knows? Like, you could definitely tell him how you feel and you could get the answer that you want and you could date. And just because you get the answer you want doesn't mean he's your forever person. But he might be, I don't know, like, who knows? And so the point is, is you're shooting your shot about a feeling you have about someone. And this is a potentially big decision. And if you're going to make a big decision, you got to treat it like a big decision. And so, yeah, you should carve out the time.
- [43:52]
Caller
Okay, yeah, all right, that's a good point.
- [43:54]
Nick
Yeah.
- [43:55]
Caller
Maybe I'll just be like, do you want to like smoke and like get food or something before we leave and see. And also, if, like, he doesn't make the time, if I say that, then, like, I shouldn't be doing this.
- [44:04]
Nick
All depends on why he's not making the time.
- [44:07]
Caller
No, I should do this. I know. That's just, like, my. My ego and, like, being nervous how you say it.
- [44:12]
Nick
It's something like, listen, I don't think of you as just a friend anymore, and maybe I'm catching you a little off guard. I know you have a girlfriend, and I'm not, like, saying I'm in love with you, but, like, I enjoy time with you different than I do men, Megan, you know, or Chad. And I don't know how you feel about me. I don't know if you've ever thought of me in any other way, but, like, I know you have your girl, and I know you're going with. You know, you. You have all these big decisions to make, but I have feelings for you, and I'm. You know, I. I know. I don't know if that feels like a lot of pressure, but, like, I need you to figure out what you want to do with your girlfriend, because I don't want to be necessarily a home wrecker, but if there's any part of you that. That understands how I feel, I wanted to tell you because I know that you're kind of going through a lot when it comes to your girlfriend, and I wouldn't hate being the reason she doesn't move.
- [45:07]
Caller
Yeah. Oh, that's good. Okay. Yeah. No, that actually is really helpful because I've just been really having a hard time thinking of how I'm even going to start it.
- [45:15]
Nick
Like, you try to. Yeah, you. You. You try to keep it somewhat. You know, it's like. Yeah, it's not like I'm in love with you, you know?
- [45:23]
Caller
Jesus.
- [45:24]
Nick
Yeah.
- [45:25]
Caller
And I'm not that level, but, yeah.
- [45:27]
Nick
It'S like, listen, I. You're not my pal. I don't, you know, like, you're not. So I want to take more trips with you, and I don't want to wonder if it's weird you have a girlfriend. You know it's saying like that, right?
- [45:41]
Caller
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
- [45:43]
Nick
I want to talk about going to Europe with you. I love spending time with you, and I want to do it without worrying if I'm being inappropriate with you having a girlfriend, because that's kind of how I feel now. And I think that's kind of important to say because you're kind of also planting the seed that, like, regardless of his answer, you don't want to keep doing this.
- [46:03]
Caller
I'm not doing this. Yeah, 100%. And also like, I don't have guy friends like this. Like, no, yeah, like I don't. And like to your point, like platonic friends like that, like when you're straight, it's not, not realistic or sustainable. And it. Yeah, I feel like what I'm saying is just like the obvious. And I even said that to like my roommates when I was, I was thinking about telling him a different time where I was gonna be like, do you realize we're like on a date right now? Like, because we're like do these things and it's like weird.
- [46:31]
Nick
The only thing you have going against you and it's a big thing you have going against you is, you know, the fact that he has a girlfriend and he only sees her a few times a week. Is that like the. Why he's able to do what he's doing with you and it feels the way it does is because you're playing his, you are very much playing the role of a girlfriend and he's telling himself it's okay.
- [46:50]
Caller
I hate that.
- [46:50]
Nick
You know, because you're not, because you're not being physical and because you're not flirting. He has deemed it is okay to him, but like it's just the quality time, you know, it's just the, the person to talk to, the person to go out to dinner with the smoke weed with, to take a trip with like all the non sexual aspects of, of, of having a boyfriend or a girlfriend. And you know, like, there's a lot more to relationships than just right, like you're having sex and that's a big part of it. You know, sex is a big part of relationships. Especially in your 20s when you're young and horny and just want to have sex. But like you are filling that role. And that's maybe another thing to kind of point out to him that this will be a thing to point out to him if you don't get the answer you want. And when he. And you're like, I can't keep doing this. And he's like, well, why not? It's just because I'm playing the role of your girlfriend without all the benefits.
- [47:38]
Caller
Yeah, 100%. And also like, like, like talked about sex and stuff before, which I also feel weird about, like, oh, you have.
- [47:44]
Nick
You'Ve talked about what you guys like in bed.
- [47:46]
Caller
Like not specifics but like we talk about sex and like he'll talk about the fact that like he hates that he can never have sex, basically. And, you know, like, I don't want to say this because I don't want people, like, listening to this to freak out. But, like, he's, like, said to me basically that, like, sex with his girlfriend is, like, not that good. And, like, that to me is like, crossing a line.
- [48:04]
Nick
But, like, crossing a line, obviously.
- [48:07]
Caller
But, like, when he said that to me, I wasn't feeling like this yet. It was still very platonic. So when I. When he said that, I was like.
- [48:12]
Nick
Oh, like, he's saying it as a friend, so then maybe it's less of a crossing. Yeah, I don't know.
- [48:16]
Caller
I just, again, like, I was. Wasn't in this mindset, so I was kind of just like, okay, like, guys are shitty sometimes and, like, say dumb shit. But, like, I mean, that is like, a weird thing about it. It's like there is this weird tension girls have.
- [48:26]
Nick
You have. To your point, women have told their women friends about their sex life.
- [48:31]
Caller
Exactly.
- [48:31]
Nick
And. And. And that happens all the time. It's just like, yeah, you know, but.
- [48:35]
Caller
Now I'm, like, attracted to him and I'm like, okay, like, you're not even, like. It's like, why are we even. Why aren't we having sex? Oh, because you have a girlfriend. Like, it's weird.
- [48:42]
Nick
The big question is, is, has he come to appreciate the same way you have come to appreciate all the quality time that you guys have shared and you have that quality time? Is quality time your love language? I would be willing to bet it is, for sure. It might not be his. Right. So there is that, you know, and so this quality time that you're getting with him is helping driving these feelings.
- [49:05]
Caller
Yeah, that's a good point.
- [49:06]
Nick
And so the question is, is that, like, when he doesn't get the quality time from you that he's used to, how will he feel about that? Because a big part of him of realizing how he feels about you most likely will be you saying, I can't do. You're going to have to leave his life, and he's going to have to then evaluate how his life is without you in it. Right. While still having his girlfriend in it.
- [49:31]
Caller
Yeah, that's a good point. And, like, that's kind of why, too. I think it's like, a good time that we're both about to, like, be out of our city for a while. Because, like, if I say it now and then he goes there and he's thinking about it.
- [49:43]
Nick
You want him? Yeah. You want him? You want.
- [49:45]
Caller
I want him to Be, like, thinking about it.
- [49:47]
Nick
Yeah, well, yeah, especially, you know, definitely tell him before he goes. So that way it'll help him get clarity if he needs to get clarity. Yeah.
- [49:54]
Caller
And, I mean, if it doesn't go my way, like, I'll be fine. I'm not, like, I can handle it.
- [49:59]
Nick
You definitely. You definitely have to make it very clear that, like, this is the end. End of whatever you guys had.
- [50:06]
Caller
Yeah. Of the same.
- [50:08]
Nick
It either is some corner sort of new beginning if he decides to leave that relationship. And if he's like, well, what does that mean? You'll be like, I don't know. But I do know that, like, I want to keep doing this without you having a girlfriend, and I don't want to break up a relationship that is important. You know, if you love her, then you should be with her. But given how I feel about you, I just. I don't. I'm not going to be. Be your local girlfriend who plays the role of your girlfriend without the, you know, the stuff that we're not. I just. I don't want to, and I can't do that anymore. And out of respect for you and her, you know, I'm just not gonna keep doing this. But if you're open to exploring us, you know, if you've. If any part of you feels what I'm feeling and you've decided to leave that relationship. I want to take a trip with you. I want to hang out with you. I want to spend more time with you. With you. You know, I wanna.
- [51:00]
Caller
Yeah.
- [51:01]
Nick
That's all I know that. That's. That's as far as I've gotten.
- [51:04]
Mel Robbins
Right.
- [51:04]
Caller
Okay. Yeah, that's really helpful. I think I have a better idea of, like, what I should say and everything, and I think I'll just this week be like, do you want to go for a walk? Because we live right by each other, and so it doesn't have to be like carving out a night. It can just be like, let's just like, go talk.
- [51:17]
Nick
Yeah. Okay. All right, well, please keep us posted. Yeah, I'll keep you updated. All right. Good luck. You really. I mean, you may get the answer you want right away, but this could be a bit of a process. Right. But you. You have to enforce that boundary. I can't emphasize that enough, that if you don't get the initial answer that you want, you have to make it very clear that you are not willing to hang out with him and give in and, like, miss him and, like, go on that walk, you know, and talk.
- [51:52]
Caller
Yeah.
- [51:53]
Nick
And or, you know, grab that coffee. Yeah, you really, you have.
- [51:57]
Caller
I'm really good. I dated my ex for two years. Like, we broke up. I went, no contact. Like, he would text me, text me. I would be like, no. And he broke up with me. So I was, like, losing it, but I was like, absolutely not. I've been listening to your show for, like three years at least. So I knew. I was like, not. We are not doing this, all right?
- [52:14]
Nick
Because that's. That's the key that will make. That will force him to make a decision and it will force him to explore his feelings. Because a lot of times if people don't make us decide, we're not going to decide. If people don't make us choose, we won't. You know what I'm saying? If people don't make us really explore our feelings, we won't. You know, and so you got to make. Yeah, you got to make them do it. So. Yeah.
- [52:34]
Caller
Okay, I will. Thank you.
- [52:36]
Nick
All right.
- [52:36]
Caller
Very helpful. I love your show and I've probably referred 50 of my friends and, like, they're definitely tired of me saying, like, well, Nick would say this. So thank you for all the advice over the years.
- [52:46]
Nick
Well, I sincerely appreciate it and thank you for telling people to listen. And hopefully this was helpful.
- [52:51]
Caller
Helpful. It definitely was. Thank you.
- [52:53]
Nick
All right, take care.
- [52:54]
Caller
Have a good one.
- [52:55]
Nick
All right, bye.
- [52:55]
Caller
All right, you too.
- [52:56]
Nick
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- [56:32]
Mel Robbins
Hi, my name is Lola. I'm 24.
- [56:35]
Nick
How can I help?
- [56:36]
Mel Robbins
So we've dated for five months. I've met his family. He told me he loves me. When do I become his girlfriend?
- [56:42]
Nick
Okay, the meeting is family. Irrelevant. Means nothing, something. And when he says I love you, like, it's not. Is it more like, I would tell my brother I love you? Or he was like, I'm in love with you.
- [56:53]
Mel Robbins
It's more of a I'm in love with you.
- [56:55]
Nick
Okay. All right. Well, that's something then. When does he become your boyfriend? Whenever you're willing to hold him accountable. Or actually, more accurately, whenever you're willing to hold yourself accountable. I'm guessing I'm assuming you've had conversations about the label. Yeah.
- [57:11]
Caller
Yes.
- [57:11]
Mel Robbins
So he started as my gym crush. It was somebody that I, I kind of was eyeing out at the gym for a minute earlier this year. And I had a conversation with my friend and she was like, sometimes you just have to go get it and, like, take chance. So I actually went up to him and asked him for his name. He got my number. And we've been talking since, like, early June now. We've gone on a couple dates. By the third date, we kind of solidified that we were exclusive. By the fourth date, it was kind of like, like he was more affectionate. And like I said, he dropped the L bomb in like, August. And honestly, I really like him too. I feel like.
- [57:53]
Nick
So he said it to you without you, just out of nowhere?
- [57:56]
Mel Robbins
Yeah, we were watching a movie and he said he dropped the L word. And I was kind of shocked because normally I like to take my time with people. I've never dated somebody, like, at this pace before. I'm the of the believer of, like, you have to get to know somebody for at least six months before or even seeing if it could go Anywhere. But I also now believe, because I'm going through it now, that you can feel some type of way or feel stronger about somebody and just getting to know them for a couple months. And I knew that, like, by the second month, if he had asked me to be his girlfriend, I would have said yes, which typically I wouldn't have done.
- [58:31]
Nick
Okay. All right. How old are you again?
- [58:34]
Mel Robbins
I'm 24.
- [58:35]
Nick
How old is he?
- [58:35]
Mel Robbins
He's 23.
- [58:37]
Nick
Okay.
- [58:38]
Mel Robbins
Fairly young.
- [58:40]
Nick
Yeah. I mean, whatever you're not. It's only a year younger.
- [58:42]
Mel Robbins
Oh, and I. I want to say, too, I think it was on our third date, we kind of talked about what kind of daters we were in kind of our history. He's only had one girlfriend, and I could tell he barely counts that as a girlfriend because in. It was in high school, so it wasn't to talk about it as if it was like a huge.
- [58:58]
Nick
Probably wasn't. Yeah. I mean, I definitely don't count girlfriends in high schools.
- [59:04]
Mel Robbins
Yeah. So. And I've had. I've been in three relationships, and in each one, I've taken my time. They've been long distance relationships as well. They've been two year relationships. So I feel like I kind of have a better feel of what I like and what I don't like. And with this person, it's just gone at a wave, like, faster pace.
- [59:24]
Nick
So what conversations about labels have you guys had?
- [59:28]
Mel Robbins
Yeah, so the first conversation we had was in August, and it was because I went to a friend's gathering and we were talking about how long is too long before you can get to know somebody to, you know, ask them there to be your girlfriend. And people were throwing out, like, four months, five months, six months. And then I was just, like, thinking about that. And I saw him afterwards and we were talking, and because he had told me, you know, if somebody comes up to me and asks me, like, for my number, like, you know, ask me for a date or something. Like, I. I already say I have a girlfriend. And I was like, oh, you, you know, do.
- [60:03]
Nick
And I mean, you guys are exclusive.
- [60:05]
Caller
Right?
- [60:06]
Mel Robbins
But I. And I said that as, like, well, you've never really asked me out. I was like, so do you assume we're just dating?
- [60:12]
Nick
Sorry for interrupting. But, like, when you guys had the exclusive conversation, what was that conversation like? And what expectations and boundaries did you guys set, if any, when you guys established that you guys were exclusive?
- [60:27]
Mel Robbins
Well, yeah, so we said. Said we were. We agreed that we weren't talking to anybody else.
- [60:31]
Nick
Okay.
- [60:32]
Mel Robbins
That we were Entertaining anything else, that we were going to take the time to get to know each other.
- [60:36]
Nick
But did that mean that the door was open if you wanted to entertain people? You know, I guess I'll be honest. Like, this whole, like, we're exclusive, but we're not boyfriend and girlfriend, it is a modern dating thing. I don't think only Gen Zers are doing it. I think the millennials have adapted it probably as well. But it is new. It is confusing. Confusing to me and stupid. I think my understanding is this, like, in the way you're describing, it's like, yeah, we just said we weren't seeing other people, but it almost seems like, you know, people don't do things for no reason. So there is a reason why both of you or one of you that aren't calling each other boyfriend and girlfriend. I don't know what that reason is. A lot of times if there's one person really saying, I want to be boyfriend and girlfriend, and the other person saying, not yet. Well, there is a reason they're saying not yet. Might be like the loophole of a what if I do meet someone I want to entertain and they're only reason you are exclusive right now is because there's no one they would rather fuck. You know, it's like, yeah.
- [61:36]
Mel Robbins
So when we had that first conversation, I said, so you just assume I'm your girlfriend? And we talked about that. I said, I'm a girl. I like those type of things. Like, I would like to formally be asked. And he's like, you think? I don't think about that. I want it to be special. So in August, when he said that, I was like, oh. That gave me hope of like, oh, maybe he's planning it. Maybe he's gonna come through with it. And now it's December and nothing's happened. And at this point, I feel like it's almost like a joke. We talk about it and kind of laugh about it. One time my sister called me out and said, you're in the gray area. Like, you don't usually do this. Like, it's either black and white for you. Why are you letting this guy, like, keep you in this gray area? And I was like, oh, my gosh, she's right. Like. And so I brought it up again. I told him, I brought up the whole term of the gray area. He was like, what is that? And funny enough, in one of your Ask Nick episodes, you talked about the reason why a guy is willing to be exclusive with you but not actually make you his girlfriend. So I played that clip and he was like, he laughed and he was like, he's totally right.
- [62:43]
Nick
What did I say?
- [62:44]
Mel Robbins
That he's willing to like, hook up with you, treat you like his girlfriend. But just in case, you know, if somebody, if another option comes up that's better, like kind of leaves that door open to take that step with somebody else if they wanted to.
- [62:57]
Nick
And he agreed with me.
- [62:59]
Mel Robbins
He agreed with you? He's like, oh my gosh, I hate that he's right. He's like. But quickly he was said, I don't think that's the situation we're in. So then that kind of left me confused because if you ask me, and I don't know if I have rose colored glasses on, but if you ask me, me, I don't think if somebody else were to come in the picture, like, he would take it. I really think that it's just, you know, him and I, I don't think that he's interested or looking for other people to date.
- [63:27]
Nick
Hey, he's probably not. And the truth is, had you guys decided to be boyfriend and girlfriend two months ago, that wouldn't necessarily protect or stop him from meeting someone, being attracted to them, and then breaking up with you to date them. You know what I'm saying? And I think it's kind of my point. Point is that I wanted to get to, is that this is an unnecessary thing that you guys have created. What I. To be honest, what I want you to do is I want you to just be like, hey, by the way, we're boyfriend and girlfriend. And part of your problem is like, And I get where you're coming from. You want special moments. I understand that. But like, this is an unnecessary step and an unnecessary special moment. And you are sacrificing clarity for yourself in this relationship in the hopes of some special moment. You know what I'm saying? Like, the way you guys are talking, you're talking about like an engagement. You're not getting engaged. I don't know, maybe not anytime soon. You're just trying to get some clarity so that you guys can move forward with this relationship and you know, see if it's. It could go anywhere. He doesn't need to propose to you to be, be your boyfriend. You know what I'm saying? He doesn't need to light candles and, and have a playlist and have family waiting to surprise you guys. F. You know, you don't need that. You know, am I.
- [64:46]
Mel Robbins
So that's what I was thinking in my head. I was like, am I Too shallow for wanting that. But as the same time, I'm also a girl, and I like those kinds of things. I've.
- [64:54]
Caller
I'm.
- [64:54]
Mel Robbins
I'm used to that.
- [64:55]
Nick
But at what cost? What's it costing you? Right? Like. And you also have to recognize that, like, you know, this is a man as you've. You know, he's younger than you, so, you know, there's exceptions to every rule, but he's probably slightly less mature than you. Probably also, especially when it comes to dating, because I think typically women have more options to date older men early in their adult life. And with that sometimes comes experience. It comes access to more adult people. And that's part of the reason why you might mature faster than him. You know, you've had more experience. And so part of it is, it's like, you. You. You do have more dating experience than him. You are a little older than him. You being a woman, him being a man and being older, you can safely assume that you're probably a little bit more emotionally experienced and mature than him. Not that you're so more mature that you can't date him or anything like that. I'm just saying. It's just like, here you are wanting this special moment. I appreciate that. That. And then here's this guy who's never really had a real girlfriend, and you're telling him it needs to be special, and he's like, all right, well, I guess it needs to be special. And, like, you know, and then you're. You're almost building up something, you know, that he's needs to, like, really make sure he's ready for or something. And it's just, like, you're adding to the stakes of something that, like. And all. All. And. And the truth is, what do you really want here? Right. Clarity.
- [66:19]
Mel Robbins
Right?
- [66:20]
Caller
Yeah.
- [66:21]
Mel Robbins
And something that his mom, I think, asked him. This is where I kind of feel embarrassed. His mom had a conversation with him and said, oh, when did you make it official? And he's like, well, I haven't. She's like, what? Like, you guys aren't official? You never asked her out? And then he's like, no, Mom. Like, I. I know this is something that she's also brought up. Like, I know I have to do it. So now I. I've gone over to his house multiple times, and, like, now seeing them, I feel like, am I settling? Or, like, do they look at me differently? You know, I don't know. It's like I'm constantly in my head thinking about, yeah, because we're not official, even though we're acting like we are. I also think, well, had I not allowed certain things, maybe he would have.
- [67:07]
Nick
Asked me or maybe, I don't know. It's possible because the. What you're describing, you're not. You're not describing a guy giving the energy to someone who really wants to explore other options. To me, I think you guys are just kind of falling for society's trap of this whole, like, label. I don't know. Like, you can, you guys can break up. You know, like, defining a relationship is not a special moment in a relationship. It's. It's. All it is is clarity. It is a step in a relationship to make both parties early in a relationship feel more secure. And it gives both people permission to continue to explore this relationship and have more trust and to be more vulnerable and open up more so that you can build a stronger. That's all it is. It's permission to go deeper, you know, and things like that. It's not a big commitment. You can break up the next day, you know, and that's kind of the problem that we've created with this whole like, boyfriend and girlfriend label versus we've added an unnecessary extra step. That unnecessary extra step is like, we're exclusive, but not boyfriend and girlfriend. Like, I don't, I still for the life of me don't know what the that is for people who do that. You know, your boyfriend and girlfriend, whether you want to call yourself boyfriend and girlfriend or not, like, breaking up wouldn't be any. Like, if you guys ended. If he, if you met someone else today or if he met someone else today and you had to end the relationship, it wouldn't be any less difficult for either of you just because you don't have the label. If he another girl tomorrow and you found out about it, it wouldn't feel any less of a violation of trust than it would if he was your boyfriend. It just wouldn't. He might be. He might be able to argue semantics with you, be like, well, I didn't cheat on you because you weren't my girlfriend, but it would feel the same to you. You know what I'm saying? And that's what matters. And so this is all just kind of unnecessary at the cost of clarity. And listen, I'm not saying that you shouldn't expect to have a boyfriend for that from time to time makes you feel special, you know, and meets your love languages, whatever your love languages are. And if your love languages are quality time or gifts or words of affirmation, and the combination of all those equals him, like, I don't know, planning a romantic weekend, a staycation, a trip or a flower. He brings over flowers one day and says, hey, I just did it because I love you. That's what you're describing and that's what you needed and you should want those things. But you're like, narrowing it down so specific that, like, you know, I promise you, like, if you end up marrying this guy, you're not going to be like, remember, you know, boy, are. The day you asked me to be your boyfriend was a real magical day. Like, you're not gonna know. It's. It's. Yeah, it's.
- [69:59]
Mel Robbins
So. So do you think I'm more than falling into. Because what you're saying is I'm falling into this. I guess now society's like the steps that need to be taken to be quote, unquote, boyfriend and girlfriend.
- [70:12]
Nick
Yeah, I think. I don't know how it sounds to me. I honestly think you should next time you get together and be like, hey, by the way, I decided we're boyfriend and girlfriend. And you should say it kind of as a joke. And you should be like, but all seriousness, like, we all are. I do want you to treat me special. I do want you to, like, from time to time to go out of your way and make me feel like you really, like, love me and do romantic things. But, like, you're my boyfriend. We act like boyfriend and girlfriend. We're intimate. We. I don't, you know, whatever you say, you love me, you're in love with me, you're my boyfriend, I'm your girlfriend. If you were to leave, if you were to develop feelings for someone else, I would expect you to let me know. Know and give me the consideration I deserve. And that's a boyfriend. You know what I'm saying? So, like, we were being silly about labels. I kind of think you should bring that kind of energy. I mean, and then if he is like, well, I don't know if I'm ready to be your boyfriend. Well, then you should address that. But that will be like, well, why not? Like, what's different? That will be, you know, but he should be like, you're probably right. Let boyfriend and girlfriend.
- [71:13]
Caller
Yeah.
- [71:13]
Mel Robbins
And I guess too, it's like, I come from a traditional, like, family who. And in my close circle, like, that those things are important. And I know that because this person has not met my family yet. Because this is another little predicament because I've moved so fast with this person, my mom does not agree. She thinks that I also need to take my time into getting to know somebody before I actually date them. So that's another pickle I'm dealing with. But. And I've also kind of used that as a, an excuse to be like, well, at least he hasn't asked me to be his girlfriend so I don't have to tell my mom, you know, but it's almost like this again, traditional. Like they have to ask you and then it's official.
- [71:57]
Nick
It's, you know, you're talking to a very non traditional guy. So listen, you don't even share. But, but that's the thing is he doesn't even share that tradition, you know, so it's like, like, but in, in.
- [72:12]
Mel Robbins
My head, it's like if you're, if you're expressing that you think something is special and that you would want something, wouldn't the other person, like, want to do that?
- [72:22]
Nick
Sure. But like, the way you're saying it is, that's such a loaded question in a sense, like, yeah, of course, sure. But like, you also have to acknowledge the variables that are at play here. You know, you're dating a guy who's a little bit younger than you, who has no dating, dating experience. So, you know, he's maybe in a lot of ways just following your lead. You know, in a lot of ways, you're gonna show him kind of how to conduct himself in a relationship. That is a downside of dating someone with limited dating experience. You know, the upside, there's upsides of that too. You know, there's upsides and downsides of everything. You gotta take the good with the bad. But like, I think your, let's call it stubbornness to like, follow a certain code or steps or process or tradition. A tradition that, the way you describe it is more your mom's tradition than your tradition or society's standards rather than your standards. You guys are pretend. It's just like you're almost pretending not to be boyfriend or girlfriend for a variety of reasons. One, to appease your mom. Two, to make him feel comfortable. I don't know, to make you guys both, I don't know, feel more comfortable with things. But, like, the point is, is that if either of you wanted out of this relationship tomorrow, you guys would have to act like boyfriend and girlfriend, right? And it would feel like you lost a boyfriend. And when you say we're boyfriend and girlfriend, and he's like, I don't know if I'm ready yet, be like, well, how would it feel if I told you, I have feelings for another guy. And you should say it almost as if you maybe do. And because. And you should be like, well, that would do you, you know, and you'd be like, no, like, well, but if I did, would it. You know, if you're not my boyfriend, then I don't think I owe you anything. Do you think I would owe you something if I met a guy that I feelings for and wanted to have sex with? And he'd probably be like, yeah, like, well, that sounds like to me, a boyfriend. And like, to me, it's just like, you again, you can be boyfriend and girlfriend one day and you could decide to break up the next. And if you broke up tomorrow, it's like, what's. And like, is it. What is he some guy you dated? Or is it going to be my. You know, is he really not going to be an ex?
- [74:25]
Mel Robbins
Yeah, I guess that's like what I. Yeah, I call it like a situationship, which I normally. I hate that term. I agree with you. I think. Think it's dumb. I think you're either dating or you're not. And because I've never gone through this before, I've always just either been getting to know a guy or we've been dating. I've never been in this, like, again, gray area with somebody, even though it feels like we're totally dating. But just I've never gotten that question. So I'm like, technically we're not. So it's just like a back and forth in my head type.
- [74:57]
Nick
Also, something I just want to point out to you, I have no problem with you being being a more traditional person when it comes to love and dating. And if you have certain expectations of tradition that are centered around the man needs to do this, the man needs to do this. And I expect a man to do X, Y, or Z, then you probably should date someone with more experience. Yeah, you know, I don't think you necess. I don't think you should break up with this guy. Just be. You know, But I think you should maybe ease off on the things that you think he should do that you shouldn't have to remind him of or you shouldn't have to bring up because, I mean, you decide to date someone with less experience and that's totally okay because it sounds like you made it, Met a pretty nice guy and there's something there, but it's not necessarily fair to him to have these expectations about things that he might not even really fully be aware of or know about. And I Don't really honestly says it doesn't say anything about your guys relationship or connection. If you initiate some things.
- [75:54]
Mel Robbins
Yeah.
- [75:55]
Nick
Along the way you can set an expectation of. I'd like you to do X, Y or Z. But like, you know, I don't know, it's 2024. You can still be traditional and you play the role in a heterosexual relationship of the more kind of feminine role, you know, the, the role of the women. If you're more traditional and, and you can still be the one who makes the first move from time to time. You can still plan a date, you know, from. For once in a while you can still like pay for a dinner if you felt like, you know what I'm saying? And you can. And the core of your relationship can still be fairly traditional where he leads and you follow and yada, yada, yada. But like for everything, without, without exception, at the conc. At the risk of, of you not having clarity that you desire. But you get what I'm saying?
- [76:39]
Mel Robbins
Yes. And prior to getting your advice, because it's been brought up multiple times, I just didn't know if I should have another conversation because in my head I was like, if I keep bringing this up, it almost sounds like I'm like begging somebody to do something that in my head should come from their own, you know, heart.
- [76:58]
Nick
I think you need to take the pressure off the situation and him a little bit. He says he loves you. You're not dating other people. If you were, it would, if either of you were, it would crush the other person. It would feel like a breakup. So then why are you guys wasting energy wondering why you're not something you kind of really already are. You've just decided it needs to be this big moment in this step and an unnecessary step. I don't, you know, really get it.
- [77:28]
Mel Robbins
Yeah, I. So then another question is if this. Because I think I am more of the traditional, like I like those kinds of things. Like, do I have to set a boundary somehow if like this doesn't happen? Because I don't think I'm willing. I don't. I would hate to lose this person.
- [77:51]
Nick
Okay, that's. So I know if it's important for you to know.
- [77:54]
Mel Robbins
Yes, I would hate to lose this person. But I knew that, like, I know that if I have a conversation with them and I say, hey, hey, like this is really important to me. It hasn't happened, obviously. Even though we act like we totally are, it's almost like in my head if I put a timeline to it, then I risk losing the person and almost standing on like what I'm saying on. If they don't ask me by a certain time, then, you know, then.
- [78:20]
Nick
Well, are you totally against. I mean, I'm being serious when I say if I were you, you, I would just say I. We're boyfriend and girlfriend.
- [78:31]
Mel Robbins
Yeah. I don't know if I totally feel like at peace with that because again, I like that I would want that special moment. But after listening to you, it's almost like, then am I again, I'm sacrificing my peace and my clothes.
- [78:48]
Nick
Yeah, I guess I like to. At what cost? How special is this moment? How meaningful is this moment? Is it really that meaningful? Or have you told yourself it needs to be meaningful? I mean, it's just.
- [79:00]
Mel Robbins
Yeah, I guess because if he, if he were to ask me tomorrow and what is he.
- [79:05]
Nick
What is your expectation? Do you need a gift? Do you need, like, what does he need to do what? To make this special. Like, I don't understand, like what.
- [79:11]
Mel Robbins
Yeah, and that's what I'm getting at. If, if he were to ask me tomorrow, I think nothing would really change because we're already. Already a couple. Yeah, I just didn't think about it that way.
- [79:23]
Nick
Yeah, I just, you know, listen, like, we all, for a variety of reasons, sometimes lock in on deciding it needs to be a certain way. And sometimes we can take a step back, reevaluate, and ask ourselves, well, why does it need to be this way? Does it really impact my life the way I'm acting like it would? And personally, if you ask me me, I don't think you're treating a boyfriend or girlfriend proposition label, whatever confirmation like this. You're talking about it like it's an engagement. You're using the word like ultimatum, you know, and things like that. And you know, this isn't like a traditional situationship where it's like one person really wants to be boyfriend and girlfriend and the other person's like, I'm not really sure. We're definitely not dating. We want to date other people. Like, that's not what this is, you know, like, this is the guy who said he loves you. Everything about you're telling me is you act like boyfriend and girlfriend. It's like you're confusing each other for no real good reasons other than you have told yourself that the boyfriend and girlfriend ask needs to be a really special moment because you like to be treated special as the lady in this relationship. And he has complied and agreed with you. Honestly not even sure what the Fuck. He was agreeing to. Because he doesn't really know. He's never really done this before, you know. And so he honestly is probably acting like in his mind, he's acting like I have to really be ready. To me, it sounds like he's treating it like an engagement.
- [80:53]
Caller
Yeah. Yeah.
- [80:54]
Mel Robbins
And so in August, when he said, I want it to be special, and I was like, now it's December, like, what is he prepping for? I guess, like.
- [81:01]
Nick
Good question. Yeah.
- [81:04]
Caller
Yeah.
- [81:05]
Nick
You know, it's not. That's not. It's not that special. It's. It's just a little label. It's just clarity. It's. It's peace of mind. What you want is peace of mind. If I were you, that's how I would look at it. And that's all you want. And that's just the conversation, you know. And again, I. I'm not saying don't have expectations of having your boyfriend treat you special and do romantic things from time to time, but that should be all the time or occasionally, somewhat consistently. It doesn't, you know, doesn't need to be this.
- [81:34]
Mel Robbins
And we talk about that. Like, I. I would consider myself a very, like, romantic person. I've done, like, things in hopes of, like, if I do certain things, like one, I want to show them that I care. And I think it's cute to do certain things, like, to be romantic. But obviously I have certain expectations too of the other person doing not the same things I do, but like, showing me in different ways to be, like, romantic. And it's like, in your opinion, do you think if I almost have that conversation and kind of just solidify we are boyfriend and girlfriend, will that kind of take away from his efforts, like, in the future? How can I still hold him up to, like, an expectation of treating me special?
- [82:18]
Nick
Do you think he treats you special now?
- [82:20]
Mel Robbins
I think he does, but I think there's definitely room for. In my opinion, I think I'm more romantic than he is.
- [82:28]
Nick
Okay, well.
- [82:29]
Mel Robbins
And we've talked about that. So listen, that's all part.
- [82:33]
Nick
That's the answer to your question is I don't know. But that's all part of the process of dating into knowing someone and dating and developing a relationship and an emotional connection is all about communication. You're. Sounds like you communicate a decent amount. And adding to the fact that your boyfriend, let's just call him your boyfriend, is inexperienced, it is going to require you setting expectations of what you want from him. You don't just set expectations, like day one of Boy Being boyfriend and girlfriend, you set new expectations every week, every day, every, you know, your expectations might change, your needs might change. You guys will, should continue to communicate what you want, you know, and without being a nag or coming across as an ungrateful diva who's just asking for more, more, more, more, more. It is, you know, you're, you should communicate what you want from him to feel loved, you know, and that is a conversation about love language. You should have a conversation about like what love languages are. Now he might be like, I don't know what you mean. I'm a 23 year old guy with no experience. I don't know, you know, but like, you know, that's where some of your, you're, you're gonna have to coach this guy up a little bit. And now that's a bit, you know, do you want to do that? It sounds like you're willing to do that and that's okay. But like, yes. There's not like, you know, most when it comes to dating. I don't think most people, and I say, and I guarantee you almost all men, it's not like they're going out there to the library and being like how to be a boyfriend, you know, they learn through experience, you know, I'm saying. And you being potentially his first girlfriend, the reality is, is that he's probably not your guy. Who knows, maybe, maybe he will be, I don't know. But if you're his first real girlfriend, you are going to teach this man, you're going to have a profound impact on his life.
- [84:18]
Mel Robbins
Right?
- [84:19]
Nick
Because everyone's first teaches him a lot about love and relationships, you know, but, and it will be, your challenge will be how to balance out showing this guy the ropes about how to be a boyfriend and how to be in a relationship while making sure the power dynamic remains equal as much as possible.
- [84:38]
Mel Robbins
Okay, so you suggest that I'm actually going to see him today. We're going on a double date, depending on your advice. I was going to, well, regardless, I was going to try to play it cool and act like nothing, but. Do you think it's.
- [84:53]
Nick
I just think yeah, it shouldn't have.
- [84:56]
Mel Robbins
To be too serious. It should just be like a casual, like.
- [84:59]
Nick
I, I think you should say something. I think, honestly, I think we've been kind of a little silly. We and use the word we. You know, I, I was talking to some friends. I. What we are boyfriend and girlfriend. You know, you know, the words, the labels, whatever. But I, I don't know about you, but I Just want the security. And that's the thing. We still have a lot to learn about each other. You know what I'm saying? You. You mentioned your mom. It's like, oh, my mom thinks I should take it slow and get to know him. I agree with your mom, you know, and you guys being boyfriend and girlfriend doesn't change that. Again, it's, It's. It's a label that doesn't really mean anything. What does it mean? I don't know. You. You can stop talking him to him tomorrow. Regardless of that label, you know, it's not changing what you would have to do you. If you wanted to relate, end the relationship tomorrow. And so, yeah, you're like, yeah, we still have a lot to get to know each other. We. We are at the very beginning of this relationship, and us being boyfriend and girlfriend doesn't change that. And that's another lesson for probably both of you, because I think a lot of people when they're younger, they make the mistake of deciding to be boyfriend and girlfriend and then acting as if, like, they don't have to be intentional about, like, their relationship. You know, they just be like, well, we're boyfriend and girlfriend now. We have sex, we hang out, and that's all we do.
- [86:15]
Caller
That's true.
- [86:15]
Nick
Yeah, but you have to. You have to talk about your dreams. You have to talk about your expectations. You have to talk about what each other, like, every once in a while, ask him about, like, how he. What makes him feel loved, how does he feel special, how can you support him? You know, how do you like to communicate when you're stressed out or, or you know, things are not going the way you want. These are all variables that every couple has to figure out over time. A lot of these questions that is pros. You probably don't know the answer answer to. And that's why you, you both have a lot to get to know about each other. And being boyfriend and girlfriend or not being boyfriend and girlfriend doesn't really change any of that. If you being boyfriend and girlfriend, it's not like if he says, well, you want to be my girlfriend? It's. It's like you, the way you guys are thinking about it, it's like, it's as if you're playing a video game and you reach a certain level, and then once you get to that certain level, you collect all the coins or something and you guys are acting like, well, once he asked you to be his girlfriend, boyfriend, you're going to collect all these coins. Coins being all this information about him that you're going to learn automatically because he's your boyfriend. And that's just not how it works. It's just a label. And even though your boyfriend and girlfriend, you're still going to still have to ask the questions. You're going to still have to be vulnerable. You're going to still have to be intentional when it comes to getting to know each other. You're going to have to put in the work, you know, both of you, and that's what matters. Putting in the work and giving a shit and caring about growing your relationship and building your connection. Connection. And that's what you two should be having conversations about. And that's what you two should be focused about. And you guys are focused about labels and. And he's planning an event that I don't even know why, you know, like, huh. It's like, for what reason? You know, you're already there. Does that make sense?
- [87:55]
Mel Robbins
Yes. So time is of the essence, and I'll have that quote unquote conversation. I don't think it's much of a conversation. It's just kind of solidifying what we already are.
- [88:04]
Nick
Yeah. Yeah.
- [88:06]
Mel Robbins
Okay.
- [88:06]
Nick
And if he pushes back, then it's either a. An experience on his part, him thinking he needs to push back, or more likely, there's a reason why he's pushing back. You can remind him of the clip of me that you like. Well, what do you mean? Are you keeping your options open? Because if not, like, in that moment where you played him that clip and he's like, yeah, he's probably right, but that doesn't apply to us. That was him saying, you're my girlfriend. Because if it doesn't apply to him, if he's not keeping his options open, then you're his girlfriend. Okay.
- [88:36]
Caller
Okay.
- [88:37]
Mel Robbins
Well, then I will sit with what you said, have a conversation with myself, because again, I am holding on to that, like, traditional, like, step, and it is costing me a lot of, like, my clarity because it. It does kind of fog my head a lot because month and month, that keeps passing, I'm like, oh, my gosh. I feel like we're only getting closer and, like, nothing's happened closer.
- [89:01]
Nick
What?
- [89:01]
Mel Robbins
But like, we're. No, like our connection is just getting stronger.
- [89:04]
Nick
Great. Yeah.
- [89:06]
Mel Robbins
And. But time just keeps passing, and it's like. It's not like we hide, you know, from the world. We're out there. We're acting like a couple. It's just. I just haven't had the question asked, and I guess I'm holding On to that. Which is costing me a lot of.
- [89:22]
Nick
Like, it'd be one thing if you were like, yeah, he's 33 years old and he's had a couple, you know, he's had like three serious girlfriends. You know, then I would been like, you know, this guy should know better. But.
- [89:32]
Mel Robbins
Right, but he doesn't.
- [89:35]
Nick
But he doesn't. All you. He's, you know, he's never had a girlfriend. And you're like, it needs to be special. Like, oh, fuck. Like, okay, right. Like, yeah, I'll do my best version of what I think that means. And that's what it sounds like is going on right now. So when you say, hey, I think we're boyfriend and girlfriend are already. And you kind of keep it light and you have. Hopefully you guys. He's like, yeah, I guess we are. And you guys laugh about it. That doesn't change that. We, you know, we're, we're still at the very early stage of our relationship and we do have a lot to get to know each other, about each other. And I want us to be intentional about growing our connection and I, I want us to make the effort every day to building this relationship because regardless of our labels, we have to put into work if we're gonna. We have to put in the work for this to think to grow. And that, that's the conversation you should have with them. All right.
- [90:25]
Caller
Okay.
- [90:25]
Mel Robbins
Thank you so much.
- [90:26]
Nick
All right, keep me posted. Let me know what, what happens.
- [90:29]
Mel Robbins
Okay, we'll do it.
- [90:30]
Caller
Thank you.
- [90:31]
Nick
All right, take care. Bye bye.
- [90:32]
Caller
You too.
- [90:32]
Bye bye.
- [90:34]
Nick
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- [92:59]
Caller
Good. My name is Alice, I'm 29 and I haven't been able to make any new connection in a year. So. Wondering how to get out of my dating rut.
- [93:11]
Nick
Okay, what have you been doing that makes you feel like you should be making connections that you're not not making?
- [93:19]
Caller
Yeah, maybe that's also like. The point is, I guess I'm not doing much about it. I'm finding it really hard.
- [93:25]
Nick
Okay, what part are you finding hard?
- [93:28]
Caller
I think like just opening up to someone new and like also just letting someone new in my space. I find that quite scary.
- [93:36]
Nick
Okay, you're said you're 29?
- [93:39]
Caller
Yeah.
- [93:39]
Nick
Okay. What's your relationship history?
- [93:42]
Caller
So, yeah, basically I've been single for two years now and before that I was in a very Serious relationship over. Yeah, five years where we lived together, had a cat together, and then. So I ended that relationship two years ago or almost two years ago since then, obviously. Just kind of needed some time to get back to, you know, being an independent person and finding my groove.
- [94:09]
Nick
How did that relationship. Relationship end? Would it end in kind of amicably? Was it difficult?
- [94:15]
Caller
I mean, basically, like, I've heard you guys talk about this a lot on. On this podcast. You know, this kind of, like, relationship where it starts and it's, like, amazing, and we move in together and everything's great, and then we don't necessarily take care of, like, making our connection stronger over time. And it felt like on my end I was, yeah, doing therapy and just, like, trying to work on my life and my happiness a lot. And then he would. Was. I just felt, like, quite depressed. And I tried to help him for a while and tried to, you know, give him cues of, like, how he could improve himself and, yeah, just also, you know, make our life a bit nicer. And he didn't take any of those. So it ended up with me having to kind of, yeah. Throw in the towel and move on, which was obviously difficult, but also, like, I needed to do that, and it's been obviously a really good. Yeah. Decision on my part.
- [95:11]
Nick
All right, so overall, it wasn't like, the. You know, as sad as it might have been to have to end the relationship, it wasn't like you felt good about the decision and you didn't really have to necessarily heal from the decision. That was.
- [95:23]
Caller
No, I think. Yeah, the definitely. I think, like, giving. Giving that relationship up was, like, more easy to give him up, even bit difficult to say and maybe horrible, but. But then I think, like, maybe I hadn't quite made peace with the fact that I'm also, like, losing the relationship part or having, like, a partner and, you know, being someone's person. And I think that's something that I'm struggling with right now.
- [95:47]
Nick
And. And so that was two years ago. How, like. And then it sounds. You know, you said. You mentioned therapy. You mentioned kind of just doing what people do out of relationships, kind of focusing on themselves. Right. But like, how. And so how much dating have you been doing. Doing lately?
- [96:00]
Caller
Yeah, so I think, like, when I was freshly out of the relationship, I gave myself a few months. Didn't feel, like, quite ready to open up to anyone. And then I felt like, you know, summer was coming, things were getting fun, and I wanted to have some fun, so that was great. And then. So, yeah, I just Kind of like dated people on apps and kind of just like friends of friends and just like acquaintances and stuff like this, which was fun until I basically met a guy who was part of my friends group with whom I know I was interested. And then it just kind of happened. And then after that, we just had like this really intense situationship. So obviously still not ready to commit to anything. He was in the similar position. We were having some fun and it was great. We're basically seeing each other like a lot. It was super intense. And then I realized I was kind of like catching feelings and it was kind of getting me again in like, head. And I was kind of just like, okay, well, I've, you know, yeah, did a lot to try and leave my previous relationship to kind of like get peace of mind. So I'm not going to try and get into something that like, gets me into new head. So I just decided that it was better to just let. Leave it here. So I told him that I thought it'd be better to just end it there. So it was like, I don't know, maybe the better part of two months of a relationship. And then after that, I actually, actually happened to be super hot from this whole situation. It just like, kind of like lingered on for months and months and months and months, which made me very like, emotionally unavailable. And then I was trying to date.
- [97:35]
Nick
But I think, why did it linger? Why did it linger?
- [97:38]
Caller
Because, well, we're part of the same group of friends and he like, yeah, we'd like bump into each other. He also would be like, you know, hitting me up in the DMs and just like, trying to get things going again. Not like in a scene serious way. Just kind of like you up and stuff like this.
- [97:57]
Nick
Would you have been interested in exploring something serious if he really wanted to.
- [98:01]
Caller
The thing is, like, at the time when I, when I let it go, no, like, it just didn't even seem like a possibility, like, at all. But then obviously, I don't know, it's just been like really hard to let go of this, like, what could have been situation with him. And he's like, yeah, basically, like up until now, like, it's been a year. Like, we have never slept together again. We. We've never, like, you know, we've had like, back and forth. It was a lot of like, just. Yeah.
- [98:24]
Nick
Well, do you think about them push?
- [98:26]
Caller
Yeah, I do.
- [98:27]
Nick
Okay, well, that's something I. When you call. So when you initially, when the conversation started, you said you're just like having a hard Time, you know, finding a connection. How did you say it specifically?
- [98:41]
Caller
Yeah, like just it. Yeah, just like. Yeah. Making a real connection with someone.
- [98:46]
Nick
Yeah, Real connection. What does that mean to you? What is a real connection? If you were giving me a TED Talk or we met on the street and you were. Describe the type of connection that you're looking for. Give me a little. One sentence.
- [98:58]
Caller
Yeah. Something where I feel seen and where I feel like I can trust someone, that they see me as a person.
- [99:09]
Nick
Okay. Yeah.
- [99:10]
Caller
And not just like a, A body to use.
- [99:13]
Nick
Sure. Okay, that makes sense. Those, that's very valid. Those things that you're describing take time. Right?
- [99:21]
Caller
Yeah.
- [99:22]
Nick
So. And I think, I think you're probably going through something, if I had to guess, is something similar than a lot of people go through in their adult dating life, whether it's in their mid to late 20s or in their 30s. And I've talked about this before, you know, like when we're young, younger, you know, when you were 18, 19, 20, 21, relatively inexperienced with love and dating, you're more reactive. You know, you feel something and you just chase those feelings. And it's just much easier to feel things because ignorance is bliss. You know, you're just like, I feel something. This is great. Let's do this. Whether it's be boyfriend and girlfriend, hook up, I don't know, like, you're just kind of, you're responding to your feelings. Feelings. But then, you know, you date, you have relationships, there's a, you mix in a little bit of heartbreak, disappointment, whatever it is. You have a situationship, yada, yada. You, you date different people. You learn about yourself, what you've liked in these relationships, what you didn't like in these relationships. And so as we get older, you know how we, I think we struggle. And I, and I went through this a lot. I mean, I, this, this was my 30s, all of my 30s, 30s, you know, I was, I, well, part of. Don't worry, I'm not trying to scare you. Part of it is like, you know, I grew up in a very traditional household. I was a young romantic guy, so to speak, And I had, you know, I, I was very earnest when it came to, like, wanting to be a great boyfriend and find love. And I, I, I had some great girlfriends in my 20s. They taught me a lot about myself and kind of me up all at the same time. And then I ended those relationships. And then as I entered into my third 30s, for the first time of my, in my life, I was comfortable with being single. You know, throughout my 20s, the idea of being single, I there. There was no good part about being single. I was either in a relationship or I was a loser in my mind, you know, like, that was this kind of how I felt. Right.
- [101:21]
Caller
I feel like I'm battling between these things where I feel like, yeah, I'm obviously enjoying a lot, being single, living on my own for the first time. Like, you know, having been in the relationship where things are not great by the end, and, like, just being able to just be like, well, this is me, and no one's going to be there to tell me, oh, you've changed, or you doing this differently or like, whatever, like, this is super enjoyable. And just knowing that, like, yeah, I can just do my own thing. But also at the same time, it doesn't feel like life is supposed to be, like, lived on your own. And I'm like, I have a great circle of friends, and they're all in beautiful, amazing relationships. And like, okay, this is a type of a group of friends where you're not just friends with one of the partners. It's like all of us. And it's just like, I'm the single friend, and it. It just makes me feel like I'm not dating. I'm enjoying being single. I want to meet someone. Like, how do we make these things meet in the middle?
- [102:11]
Nick
Well, that. The fact that you mentioned that part about your friend dynamic, I think is a. An important part that you left out. Right. And so, if nothing else, you just have to recognize that the fact that all of your friends are in these wonderful relationships and you're kind of the odd person out right now is going to feel a certain way, so to speak, and it's going to amplify the feeling of loneliness and being single, especially when compared to your friends. But that is a manufactured feeling. It is not. And I would be very careful to base your decisions based off that feeling, because, as I'm sure you know, half of those relationships won't work out down the road.
- [102:54]
Caller
Yeah, maybe some of them.
- [102:55]
Nick
Some. I'm sure some of them will. Some of them, you know, we don't really know. Right. Like, maybe all of them will. But, you know, even if they got married, you know, we all know the divorce rate type of thing, you know, when they won't work out. I don't know. I'm just simply saying, as they say, the compare, you know, the comparisons, the thief of joy. So I think it's something to be mindful when you can acknowledge that, hey, all my friends have Relationships and I'm happy, but also a little envious of them. It's just, it's important to acknowledge that because that allows you to give yourself a little bit more grace. It's like, it's a giving yourself intentional grace. Like we all talk about giving ourself grace, but we actually have to like have the intention of doing that. We have to say, hey, this is why I deserve grace. I deserve grace because all my friends are in this relationship. And while I'm happy for them, it's hard not to want a relationship from myself. And so I'm, I'm, I really beat myself up sometimes because I'm single. But much of that feeling is because of who I'm surrounding myself with. If I had a bunch of single friends, if you had five single friends who were just like in their single era and you had so much fun with these women or men, whoever they were, that were single and you were planning trips together and you were hanging out and, and, and when one of you kind of met someone, the other, the other like five or six single people would be like, are you sure you want to date them? Because you're going to root. Ruin our, our single dynamic. This feeling that you're feeling wouldn't be as amplified. It just wouldn't be right. So I'm not saying it is very.
- [104:23]
Caller
Amplified when I'm surrounded by them in.
- [104:26]
Like, yeah, I'm not saying situation.
- [104:28]
And I'm like, and I don't think.
- [104:29]
Nick
You should change your friends. I mean you might be, you know, it might do you well, you know, as, as you remain, if you remain single to, to explore being open to single some, some single friends. But listen, like I said, said like, more importantly, I think you should just acknowledge that that's driving some of these feelings. And so it's just giving yourself some grace to not, you know, allow you good to go down those kind of rabbit holes of, of living in those feelings of feeling single.
- [104:59]
Caller
If someone was to tell me like, oh for a fact, like I don't know, down the line within your life, even if it's like when I'm 57, you'll meet the love of your life and they're amazing and this is like, you will, you won't experience, experience like loneliness forever and you will find your person, then I feel like I'd be like enjoying this so much more. Okay, well then tell yourself like open and then maybe like open myself up to like exploring with other people or like, but then I'm just like kind of looking at Every corner. Is it you? Is it you? And then like, I'm not talking to them and I don't let them talk to me. So it's like, how am I even going to even, like, you know.
- [105:32]
Nick
Well, so. Yeah, you've said a lot of things there. Well, one, if you can. And I, I love that you have that perspective. Perspective, right. If you can in fact have the, the long term thinking and the, in the sensible thought that like, you know, you don't need to meet your person tomorrow or even next year that you're. You just, you just want to have that peace of mind that you will.
- [105:52]
Caller
Yeah.
- [105:53]
Nick
Just tell yourself you will. Because the chances that you're going, if, if you want to find a life partner and you're willing to be patient to find that life partner. Partner, nothing's a guarantee. But I'd say your chances of eventually landing on that person are really high.
- [106:10]
Caller
Yeah.
- [106:11]
Nick
You know what I'm saying?
- [106:12]
Caller
Yeah. I kind of feel like, yeah, I need to be selective, but then at the same, like, not selective, but obviously, like, just follow something that feels natural. Like, that's the thing. Like, I feel like. So basically recently, like, I've had one day, like, literally one day in the last six months. And it was exciting. Like, he was just a guy from the apps and I was kind of. Yeah, yeah, like, excited to go. Excited to meet him. He was slightly older than me and like an artist and like, it just, you know, seemed fun. And then we did me and he was supposed to, like, he was kind of like, oh, yeah, like, don't have much time. I can just stay for like one drink or two. And then we ended up like staying there for like five hours having like drinks and drinking drinks and just having like great chats and laughing a lot. He was like, definitely flirty, like, you know, getting physical, like, you know, putting holding, like, I don't know, like my leg or something. Or whatever. And like, so all of the signs were green. He walked me back home and then basically like was completely not communicative on text. So I was kind of like trying to, you know, be like, hey, you around, like, you know, do you want to do this? Like, maybe once. And then he was like, oh, sorry, it wasn't on my phone. And then he was like, oh, yeah, but for sure next week. And then never reached out. And then I'm just there waiting and I don't know, I think like a few days ago my friend took my phone and just sent him like one last text just to see if it was me. Or if, like, if I should just reach out and then something would happen. He just never responded. And I'm just like, what the hell? Like, you know, and then I'm just like, oh, how do I find it exciting to date people if like it goes well and then this person, like for completely no reason, like I know, I mean, who.
- [107:48]
Nick
We don't know the reason. Right. The reason probably is he's an artist, you know, like, you know, he's in the, he's in the creative. I mean, I'm being sarcastic, but you know what I'm saying? Like, maybe he's just not looking for that or who knows? Right?
- [108:01]
Caller
But then why meet people, you know?
- [108:03]
Nick
Well, I think that's where you, you need to change your mindset a little bit, you know, and also keep in mind you described a really lovely, nice date. You know, you met for drinks and you weren't planning on staying longer. You end up staying longer than you thought you would. You had a nice chat. That's nice. But like, what did you really learn about the guy? Nothing. Right. And so. Right.
- [108:22]
Caller
That's the thing. I wanted to see if a vibe would you get going?
- [108:24]
Nick
Sure. But for whatever reason, for whatever reason, he didn't. Right. And now, and I say your ego jumps in. But like, you got to remember, like, you know, like this is all about the. Our entire conversation up into this point has been about your finding your one person whenever that is. Right. Knowing that you want to spend life with someone and, and you have the self awareness immaturity to know that, you know, well, listen, you can't predict that you're going to walk out of your apartment and get hit by a car and die tomorrow. Like, knock on this, hope that doesn't happen. But let's all assume that we're going to live long, fruitful lives. That you're a young person, you're 29 years old, you have many wonderful years ahead of you and you have the maturity to know that like, I don't need it to happen the next five years. I just want to happen soonish and so that I can enjoy my life with someone. Right. And that's great. That's a great, that's an amazing goal to have. Right. And you should hold on to that, that goal. Now you just have to like, not make dating more confusing than it needs to be by like comparing yourself to your friends, allowing your ego to get stuck emotionally on these men who maybe you have a little intrigue and excitement about but don't return the favor. And and instead of just accepting their decision and letting them kind of do what they want to do, now you're letting your ego be like, well, why didn't, you know, what, what the fog, you know, and, and, and is it me? And, and they're asking your, you know, whatever. So there's that part and then there's the other part of the part I really struggled with. You know, then you add to the fact that I go on reality tv, I go on the Bachelor, I go, I go on a franchise where it basically it, it recreates what it feels like to be 19 again. That's honestly what that, that experience is like, Right? It gives you permission to just like, if it feels good, say yes. That's kind of the energy in the environment that you're in. You really just kind of go down that road. Right. And so, so then it was easy for me to, quote, unquote, fall in love again. So if, you know, and then I, you know, got out of that world and that relationship ended. And so it was like, I knew how to fall in love when I was 19, 19 and 20. I knew how to fall in love when I was on reality tv. But I had some genuine fears of, like, how am I going to know how? Like, how, Like, I don't know, like, it was just like, how do I fall in love with someone now that I'm a little more cynical, a little more guarded, a lot more particular? You know, I can meet people pretty quickly and realize what I. I'm not interested anymore.
- [111:14]
Caller
Yeah. You know, like, yeah, this is where I'm at.
- [111:16]
Nick
Yeah, it's just like, you know, I've had enough sex in my life. Just like, I don't, like, I'm not, like, I don't need to, like, I'm not trying to go out and get laid. So it's like, yeah, you know, like.
- [111:27]
Caller
It brings nothing to me. Like, I think I did it, like, start of the summer. I was like, okay, I need to prove to myself I can still do it. So I just went on this date with this guy. I didn't even really like him, but I just wanted to see if I could like, make it to the bed. And so I did. And it felt like, why did I even do that? Like, not obviously not a bad experience, but couldn't just brought nothing to my life.
- [111:47]
Nick
Because you're a human human being. I think as humans and adults, we have. We constantly battle fulfilling our short term needs and desires and our long term needs and our desires, and those are almost never aligned you know, like my law, I have a long term desire to be healthy, be in the best shape, you know, keep up with my much younger wife, yada yada. And my short term desire is like, I want to eat that cookie, I want to, you know, smoke that weed. You know, I want to do those things, things that like, is this helping me meet my long term goal? Ah, probably not, but it's feeling good right now. So dating's the same way, right. So you're gonna, every day in dating, in life, you're going to be given your long term choices and short term choices. Right. And you're listen, you're always going to make choices every day that are more beneficial to your short term needs over your long term needs. Just like that. That's what happened when you hooked up with that guy. And then afterwards you're like, why don't I do that? You know that's going to happen. Right. Don't beat yourself up, but maybe remind yourself that how you felt the next day so you know, the next time, next time a similar opportunity presents itself, you maybe don't give into the moment. So how do you go about getting out of this rut and finding a connection? It's not going to be an answer. Maybe you love is. Part of it is. You're going to have to just get out there and you're just going to have.
- [113:07]
Caller
How do I do that with like, like actually want, like I'm on these apps and like honestly I just like I have to convince myself like that then there might be something interesting about that person. Like I'm really trying to though.
- [113:18]
Nick
That's what I'm saying. So when I, when I asked you what does a meaningful connection or whatever it was means to you, you talked about being seen, you talked about trust. Right? Are those things the two things you mentioned and like I said, those things take time. You're not going to be able to go on the app or even to a bar or the grocery store or wherever and meet someone and immediately know that this person's going to see you for who you are and that they're or someone you can trust. Right. You're not gonna, you're not gonna know much of anything. You're gonna know how they look and you, you might be able to figure out if they have any kind of sense of humor.
- [113:51]
Caller
Yeah.
- [113:52]
Nick
You know, you might be able to learn some very super superficial things about them, certainly the things they're willing to tell you, but you're not gonna learn much more.
- [113:59]
Caller
That's the Thing. It's like the first version of that person you meet is like so great. And then, you know, a couple of weeks in and you're like, oh, wow, great, what a waste of my time.
- [114:08]
Nick
So you're gonna. Yeah, but that's the thing. You're going to waste some time. The remedy to get over that is stop looking at it as this is all about meeting your person. Take a step back from the expectations and then say, right now I'm, I'm single and I'm just exploring people. Yeah, a lot of these people are, are men that I'm going on dates with. But like, take the pressure of every date you go on having to figure out whether this is going to be your person or not. Because you can't figure that out on a first date, you can't figure that out second date.
- [114:35]
Caller
That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm looking at these pictures and I'm like, would I introduce this person to my friends?
- [114:39]
Nick
Yeah, I don't if I know. Yeah. And you're not gonna, honestly, you're not gonna know that after five dates and honestly, me introducing people to your friends, you can, you can introduce a guy to your friend and not marry him. It's okay. You know what I'm saying? Like, so you, you have to change your approach because I think you're still kind of taking the approach I'm guessing you took when you were younger. You know, and that's kind of what we all did. And you're going to have to be a little bit more, you're going to have to explore a little bit more. You're going to have to be a little bit more open minded than you otherwise would be. You're going to have to be willing to meet people, right, and get to know them. And you're going to have to accept the fact that nine out of ten of these people are just going to be one offs, people that you're probably not going to want to see again. And you could, you could tell yourself that was a waste of your time or you can tell yourself, yourself, hey, I met a person. I met an interesting person. It was better than sitting at home with my cat. No offense to your cat. And it was a story to tell good or a bad date. It's a fun story. It's, it's a memory you will share. And I promise you, whenever you meet that person, you know, like now that I'm happily married and have a kid, I don't sit there and like think about exes. But like, yeah, you reflect on all you, you reflect on what it took to, for you to get there.
- [115:56]
Caller
The journey.
- [115:56]
Nick
Yeah. And, and that, and it's a good memory. And, and, and it's not, it's just not the good memories. It's the good and bad memories. They're all good memories once you get to your destination because, because you got.
- [116:07]
Caller
I think it's, it's like, I don't know, I feel like I. Yeah, I'm definitely like not being open to exploring people and I'm coming in any sort of like interest situation that I have with like maybe way more expectations in the balance than like there should be. But then at the same time, like this, the situationship that I had like last year.
- [116:29]
Nick
Yeah.
- [116:30]
Caller
I just didn't expect that it would like rock me that hard. And now I feel like obviously it's just made me like super guarded because I'm like, well, maybe if it doesn't even look like something that's going to hurt, like I might. And I just have like a whole lot of like life situation right now where I have a lot of things to do and a lot of things to get to. And it's like it completely derailed my mindset and for a long time and I feel like I can't really afford to do that right now. But then at the same time when I sit lonely, it's kind of like, well, I, I'm not even like putting myself out there.
- [117:02]
Nick
That is just, you know, that's something you're going to have to figure out, you know, and, and that's this kind of prioritizing your life and again your short term needs and long term needs. Right. My guess is you're probably, I don't want to say exaggerating, but you're, you're probably in your head a little bit more than you need to be. Why did, why did that situationship end again? Remind me.
- [117:24]
Caller
Oh, because I was catching feelings and, and it wasn't like it, there was nothing to try and make happen.
- [117:29]
Nick
So I just decided why was there, why was there nothing to try to make happen?
- [117:33]
Caller
Because he was, he was very much in like. Yeah. Just out of a relationship. I mean he was like party boy, bug boy situation. Okay, so he like. I just. Yeah. When we met, what did you. Like, it'd be one night and it would be fun.
- [117:47]
Nick
And when you think about him, what do you think about? Do you miss?
- [117:50]
Caller
Yeah, we just had like instant. Well, the thing is. Yeah. With him, like he just kind of made, made it happen like I didn't even need to do anything. He just like put his phone number in my phone, told me to text him. He was there a couple of hours at my house later. Then was the one to kind of like just lead the whole thing. So I kind of, I think I really enjoyed that. He was giving me loads of validation. I didn't expect him to even text me the next day. And then like here we are like seeing each other like three nights a week, you know, texting every day. So I just like. Yeah, I think that it was just this thing of like he just took the lead. He fancied me a lot. He made me feel great. And then I was just like, yeah, surfing on this high that it gave me. So I think, yeah, there was this. And then we had like loads of like, like common interests, like laugh at the same things. We're the same friends, like listen to the same music, like the same sort of like activities. So it's just like so smooth.
- [118:43]
Nick
Yeah.
- [118:44]
Caller
And fun.
- [118:45]
Nick
Well, the first part you described that is easily replicable, hard to find, but easily.
- [118:51]
Caller
No one's coming at me.
- [118:53]
Nick
Well, that's what I'm, I, I knew you were going to disagree with that camp. I'm just saying like what you're, you're, what you're talking about is chemistry.
- [118:58]
Caller
Yeah.
- [118:58]
Nick
And chemistry, I always say, is hard to trust but easy to manufacture. The second part is way more important. The compatibility that you talked about that you shared with them, that's much harder to find with people that you also fancy. Right, right. Like, because, you know, I'm sure you're compatible with a lot of people that you don't fancy. But I'm just saying chemistry is, chemistry is a thing that we're constantly, that we, we over prioritize in dating. Like you want to you, it's like I want a guy who's going to do these kind of superficial, immediate things. He show you mentioned he really made me feel like he liked me. Yeah, you know, that's, that's nice. But that, that doesn't show you that he's, he can be your partner. You know what I'm saying? That that can show you that he can be a good time. You know, that shit can show you he can make you feel good in the moment. Like again like a really charming, tall, you know, lothario.
- [119:47]
Caller
He wasn't even that tall.
- [119:48]
Nick
Yeah, but you know what I'm saying, a guy who's this naturally charismatic and good looking and then some, you know, like, you know, if you, if you have chemistry. You have chemistry.
- [119:56]
Caller
Yeah.
- [119:57]
Nick
So it's a little bit of that. So I think part of it is just, again, I think you have to be willing to change your approach in dating. I still think that you're doing. And again, part of it is like a human nature. You're chasing the same feelings that you were chasing when you were younger, and you're still evaluating how you feel about people the same way you evaluated it when you were younger. And now that you're 29, now that you have a lot of dating experience, now that you have a lot more clarity on, like, what you like and what you don't like, you're going to have to be willing to be more patient and not give in to that, you know, immediate spark. When you, like when you find that immediate spark, you have to say, okay, well, I'm excited. I'm excited, but I still don't know this person, and I have to. I have to take a step back, slow down, and get to know this person. And when you don't immediately have a spark, but you find some moments of compatibility, you have to be willing to still explore that to see if a spark can be created over time. Right. So it's a little. It's a. It's a balancing act. Right?
- [121:00]
Caller
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.
- [121:03]
Nick
And so, yeah, like, you're. You're still kind of hoping that, you know, someone just shows up at your door and you have this instant chemistry, and then you find out, oh, we're compatible, and this. We should date. And, yeah, I mean, that would be nice, and maybe that will happen. But nowadays with hookup culture being what it is. Right. You mentioned, like, you don't want to feel like just some, like, body that guys can have sex with. With. Right. And the problem is hookup culture has been so normalized that, like, it's. It's easier to get naked and have sex with a stranger than it is to say, will you be my boyfriend or girlfriend? You know, and that's just crazy and not normal, and we definitely need to change that. But, like, you have to have clear boundaries of what you want to do on dating. If. If you are gonna. If you're gonna decide to hook up with someone that you, you know, have had less, you know, a handful of dates with, then you have to remind yourself you're doing it because you want to get laid, you know, and. And. And maybe you still will get to know this person, but you're not having sex with them to build anything. You're just having sex with them. To have sex with them. Because sex does not help guys make emotional connections. It actually does almost the opposite.
- [122:12]
Caller
Yeah. That's kind of also how, like, I was kind of, like, on this first date with this guy that I saw recently. I was kind of like, oh. Like, I was kind of glad that he said he's got stuff to do in the morning and can't stay late because I was like, well, great. Because that, like, puts that off the table.
- [122:24]
Table.
- [122:25]
And it's actually super nice for me to just come in and just be able to have a chat and see what's going on.
- [122:29]
Nick
Yeah.
- [122:30]
Caller
And for that not to be an option. And then, I don't know, like, he walked me home, and I feel like he was being a bit physical and I was being quite, like, standoffish. Like, I was obviously engaging with him, but I find it difficult to, like, have people come in my space. Not that I didn't like it, but it was obviously, like, a little bit like, whoa, okay. And then I. I thought maybe, like, that's why he never contacted me again, is because I, like, didn't give the vibe that, you know, this could.
- [122:52]
Nick
We don't care. We don't care why he didn't contact you again. It doesn't matter. It really. That is all your ego. And you're. And listen, we all have the ego. And if I were you, I'd probably do the same thing you were doing. So I'm not trying, you know, but you have to. You have to remind yourself it's getting you nowhere. Who knows? We don't know. It's. There's a million reasons why, and most of them aren't have nothing to do with you. I mean, it just. I don't know. This was like. I don't. I don't know. I just didn't want to. And the reason is probably, like, the same reason you might not. I remember, like, when I was really very single in my 30s, right. Just kind of out there dating and just met in a lot of nice women. And, you know, I met a lot of nice women, and there'd be a lot of times I'd go on dates and I'd be sitting across. I. I'd finish a date, and I'm like, this is a beautiful woman. You know? And then I was like, yeah, it's a pretty nice conversation. But I was just like, I don't know. Like, it's just. I don't know. I just didn't. I wasn't compelled to want to do it. I don't Know, I don't know what the reason was. And then, you know, because I was older and, you know, and like, I was like, well, I don't really. I don't want. I don't. And it just kind of felt like, I don't know, I just didn't have that urge to want to do it. Maybe that was his reason. Right. Like, it was this. Maybe he just wasn't in the right space, you know, to do it, you know, and that's in that. And him not reaching out to you is much better than the alternative. The alternative of being a guy who just, like, wants to have someone. Someone.
- [124:11]
Caller
Yeah.
- [124:12]
Nick
You know, keeps it going and keeps it going, you know, because you're pleasant enough and you've had some nice conversations and, you know, you know, we have some pretty, you know, good sex and she's just. It. She's just there, but I don't really know how I feel. And then you get stuck in this, like, thing that you. Is going nowhere fast. So.
- [124:30]
Caller
Yeah, I know. You're. You're very right.
- [124:31]
Nick
That's way better. You know, and so the only thing, you gotta just, you know, you gotta let your ego not take over and stop figuring out why you weren't good enough or why he wasn't obsessed with you and you oughta yada and. And things like that.
- [124:45]
Caller
Yeah. I don't know. After that, it, like, really did make me feel like, what is it about me? You know, like, why doesn't, like, yeah. So stupid, obviously, but, like, why isn't he obsessed with me? Like.
- [124:55]
Nick
Yeah, listen, the challenge of. Of being a confident person is that we have to control our egos. Because to be confident, we have to have that. We have to have an ego that says, why not me? Why not me? You know, if I wouldn't be able to do what I've done in life if I didn't have a little bit of delusion of, like, why not me? Why can't. Why shouldn't it be me? I could do that. And then I got to work and I took some risk, whatever, but, like, it starts with a little bit of why not me? And that why not me? Is your ego saying, yeah, you're special and you're good enough. And then when. And when. And when that isn't met by that person not reaching out. And when someone says no, or we find out, well, when we say, why not me? And someone's like, well, because I don't want it to be, you know, it's not going to be you, you know, Then. Then we get a little triggered. We get a little activated. And that's where 29 year old you has to say, hey, let's not get in a rut. Let's. Let's not get centered on this guy. Let's not get obsessed with why not me? Let's not talk to that. That's just wasted energy on your part. You're just. You're focusing on things that are getting you nowhere. Right. And it's like. I don't know. He just, he just did it. I don't, I don't know why. I don't. He's a stranger. He's a stranger that I had one night conversation with that was lovely. That's it. That's all that happened.
- [126:14]
Caller
It was a bit ridiculous to maybe. Yeah.
- [126:17]
Nick
I don't know.
- [126:17]
Caller
Yeah.
- [126:17]
Nick
We could spend three hours smoking a joint and thinking of a bunch of different reasons why he didn't call you back. All of which could have been possible because you have no clue who this guy is.
- [126:31]
Caller
Yeah.
- [126:31]
Nick
And why he didn't call you back. Because we all. Everything we made up would be just as possible as the next.
- [126:37]
Caller
I guess I. I get a bit too exc. Excited. I guess. Yeah. It was the first thing that happened in a while. It was surprisingly nice. I was expecting nothing, obviously. And then. Yeah, it just like was like this little confirmation of like, get off the apps. There's no point.
- [126:51]
Nick
So that's not true. You were expecting something. If you were truly expecting nothing, then you would have been able to appreciate that moment for what it was a really nice first date. And it was really nice for you to feel anything and have a nice connection after, like not having that. That in a while, you know, if you really had no expectations, you would truly be able to appreciate the moment for what it was a beautiful night. But you had expectations. Your expectations were if I like this guy, I expect him to like me back.
- [127:18]
Caller
Yeah. I mean it. It just did feel like there was a mutual like.
- [127:23]
Nick
Sure.
- [127:23]
Caller
So it was surprising. Like I was kind of just like excited. Oh, cool. Like I'm excited to try and like see him again. See if there is something, some like in there. And then like for him not to like.
- [127:32]
Yeah, yeah, no, I understand that.
- [127:34]
Nick
But you.
- [127:34]
Caller
Because then I got excited and I didn't want to be on the apps. I was just kind of like focused on, you know, like just seeing what happens here. Like, oh great. I don't need to be like trying to find the next date because I big myself up and now I did it And I don't want to have to do it again.
- [127:48]
Nick
Well, now you just have to be a little bit more realistic. You have to, you know, remind yourself that you're not looking for what you were looking for 10 years ago. You're not, you're not looking, looking for having a spark with some guy and good sex and having that be good enough to call him your boyfriend. What you're looking for is to be seen. You're looking for trust. You're looking for someone to build an emotional connection with. It takes time.
- [128:15]
Caller
Yeah.
- [128:15]
Nick
You know, and so you have to remind yourself when you go on a date like this and you have a good time that, that while exciting as it might be, it doesn't really one day, it's just one day. And yeah, would you have liked to have gone on date 2, 3 or 4 to see if that one date could have turned into the things that you're looking for? Of course. But when it doesn't happen, it's really silly for you to act as if you were going to be able to build this connection with this person, you know, just because you had one good date and that's what you're doing now.
- [128:49]
Caller
So would you say I should try and date, date more?
- [128:52]
Nick
Yes, I would date more and actually have less expectations. And be mindful of when your ego gets activated and call yourself out and stop asking why strangers aren't validating you the way you want.
- [129:07]
Caller
Yeah.
- [129:08]
Nick
And don't waste your energy, you know, trying to figure it out because that's just fun and dramatic with friends. It just keeps us preoccupied, occupied. And then when you do date, stop putting the pressure. It's about meeting your person, you know, stop going on one date and being like, I can get off the apps. Like, can you?
- [129:28]
Caller
I mean like, not get off the apps, but you know, like not have to like scroll through these like boring things and have to say boring things. I don't know.
- [129:35]
Nick
Yeah, no, listen, dating is like going to the gym. It's a means to the end.
- [129:39]
Caller
Yeah. Maybe I need to try and like just see it like that. I don't know.
- [129:42]
Nick
Yeah, yeah, when you get tired, you take breaks. You know, when you want to get back into it, you get back into, into it. Take a step back. Overall, be mindful of your short term needs and your long term needs. You know, when you give into your short term needs, acknowledge that's what you're doing and don't confuse it with your long term needs. And yeah, and when it, and, and approach dating as meeting people, not Testing out men.
- [130:11]
Caller
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, I will try and get another date.
- [130:16]
Nick
I think you said a really important thing that you really need to like hold on to is that. And I hope it's true and it's not going to take this long. But like you said, if I knew that, you know, even if I waited till I was 50, if I could find my person and have you know, 20, 25, 30 good years with that person, that would be good enough for you. And if that's true, then really, really focus on that. Remind yourself of that every time you go on a first, first date, you know, and that will allow you to like be patient. But I do think people out there need to be more intentional. They need to try to get to know people. You know, it's like we all say we want to be seen and build this emotional connection, but that just takes time and we, and we, we want it to happen overnight and that's just not possible.
- [131:04]
Caller
Yeah, I'm definitely guilty.
- [131:05]
Nick
So you just have to acknowledge the thing that you want takes time. And then you have to be willing to put in the time with people knowing that the only way to find out is to around.
- [131:15]
Caller
Yeah, that's a good reminder.
- [131:16]
Nick
You know, that's. But it's, it's never foolproof. And again along the way, along the way you are going to have short term needs and desires from time to time you will give in to those short term needs and desires. And when you do, don't beat yourself up.
- [131:31]
Caller
Yeah, I think I have also this like voice in my head where I like feel like it's really lame of me to like not even have to fun with being single or like just putting so much like yeah, overthinking into like tiny little things like the fact that I'm still hold up or like thinking about this guy that I saw like for a month or two last year. Like I don't know, I feel like it's so. Yeah, I think I'm like judging myself a lot also.
- [131:54]
Nick
You are. And this, this situationship and this dates I think fucking you up more than you even realize.
- [132:00]
Caller
Yeah, no, but you're right. Like maybe I need to actually believe that I'm just going to meet my.
- [132:05]
Nick
Person at some point and you are.
- [132:07]
Caller
Everything in the middle is just like.
- [132:08]
Nick
Whatever you, you will. All you need is patience and the desire to have it happen. Yeah, it'll happen.
- [132:15]
Caller
Yeah. I'm just like. Yeah, I, I guess like this is a lot of good reminders and like need to practice what I preach. I Guess and not. Yeah, just think, like, I'm saying all these big things, and then actually inside that is true.
- [132:29]
Nick
Yeah. Because. Yeah, you're saying, oh, I'd be down to wait till I'm 50. And then you're acting like you need to have a boyfriend different tomorrow.
- [132:35]
Caller
Yeah, I'm super impatient with it. I just don't like this feeling, and I'm judging myself. It's just like an uncomfortable seat I feel for myself.
- [132:42]
Nick
Yeah, when you have a feeling, you don't, like, just acknowledge it. I think we do this thing where we don't want to admit to it. Instead of just acknowledging, I'm sad, I'm upset, I'm heartbroken, whatever it is, that's okay that I feel that way. You know, first, usually we resist the feeling that we're feeling, and then we try to figure out why we're feeling it. That's the part that really gets people stuck, is figuring out why I'm feeling the way I'm feeling, and then figuring out how to get. Get over it. All you gotta do is acknowledge it. I'm sad. I feel sad about this, and that's okay. And then once you acknowledge that you're sad, then you have to, like, stop doing the things that are making you sad. That's it. You know what's making me sad? Constantly asking myself why this happened with this guy, wondering if I made a mistake, wondering what could have been. Accepting what happened is the easiest way to work through the feelings that you're feeling and not get stuck in those feelings. We get stuck by constantly trying to understand. Understand why we're feeling the way we're feeling. You know, like, you know, you know why you're feeling, the why you're feeling. It didn't go the way you wanted and it made you sad.
- [133:46]
Caller
Yeah. Yeah, no, that's fair enough. I definitely need to just accept what I did. I do play the film again and again sometimes where I'm like, should I have done that then?
- [133:55]
Nick
You're a human being. You know, you're. You're well on your way. I think you have a good head on your shoulders. You're going to be just fine. I definitely wasn't saying when I was 29, if I meet my person when I was 50, I would be okay. I was definitely. I did not not have that level of maturity that you're demonstrating now. So I think, I think it'll be okay. So just. It's just. It takes work, you know, you're literally developing a set of tools in life to help you be more emotionally regulated, to be more emotionally immature, you know, to not be so easily triggered. And when we do get triggered, to not let it absolutely snowball your world around you. And you just keep working on those skills. And like I said, it doesn't change the fact that you will continue to be triggered and feel for the rest of your. Your life.
- [134:39]
Caller
Can't wait.
- [134:40]
Nick
It's all right. Well, it's better than not feeling, you know?
- [134:43]
Caller
No, no. For sure. I think I need to. Yeah. Take a. Take a step back from making all. Everything so serious and maybe just go on the day, whatever. If they don't look like they look on the picture or they kind of stink or.
- [134:55]
Nick
I don't know. Well, that's because I will. I'll leave you with this. Yeah. And I'll leave you with that last part because the not feeling thing is. Is it. That actually happens Because I reached that point. I reached that point where I was like, I don't feel anything anymore ever.
- [135:06]
Caller
Yeah. No, that's not fun.
- [135:07]
Nick
You know, it's just like. I don't know. What is the difference? I know. I couldn't even tell. He's like, I went on a date here. I went. I was like, what? I don't know. Like, I just wanted to feel something for someone. You don't want to get to that point. That. That. That. That's real cynicism. It's like eight years of being single and being picky and. And not wanting to commit to anyone. So you're in good shape.
- [135:25]
Caller
It's not eight. Yeah.
- [135:27]
Nick
Yeah. You're gonna be fine. Just take a breath, take a step back. Give yourself some grace. Like, honestly, tell yourself you're doing great. Tell yourself you will find you're in a good spot. You know, like, there's a lot of people who wish they were in your shoes right now. You really have to. You. You do have to verbalize that to yourself, whether out loud, actually, or just like in your head, you know?
- [135:51]
Caller
Yeah. Affirmations.
- [135:52]
Nick
Yeah. It matters. It really does.
- [135:55]
Caller
Yeah, no, for sure. That was really helpful, actually. Thank you.
- [135:58]
Nick
All right, well, take care.
- [135:59]
Caller
Have a good one.
- [136:00]
Nick
All right, you too. Keep us posted. I'd love to know how things are.
- [136:03]
Caller
Going for, you know, if anything happens in my life, if that's worth noting of.
- [136:07]
Nick
All right. Sounds good. Take care. Bye. Bye.
- [136:09]
Caller
Bye.
- [136:11]
Nick
Was there a moment when you realized that you couldn't control your thoughts? I often tell this story about, like, I was in my early 20s and struggling with a breakup and, like, month four of me feeling sorry for myself. And then my dad was like, dude, you. You need to get over it. And I said this to him, and I was. I was serious. I believed what I said. And I said, I have a better chance of levitating than getting over this. And what's scary about it is, like, I believed that was true in that moment, and I believed I couldn't get over it. And I was a victim of my feelings. And, like, just telling myself how I feel is how I feel.
- [136:41]
Caller
How long were you into the breakup?
- [136:42]
Nick
For me, four months. I mean, I was 22, 23 at the time.
- [136:47]
Caller
Okay, so social media wasn't a thing yet.
- [136:49]
Nick
Not what it is today.
- [136:50]
Caller
Okay, well, because there's a couple things to say about this. First of all, you can't control most of what you think. It's actually not true. You can't control 70. The average person has 70,000 random thoughts a day.
- [137:01]
Nick
Sure.
- [137:02]
Caller
Most of which you can't control. What you can control are the thoughts that you choose to think in response to something.
- [137:09]
Nick
Sure, yeah.
- [137:10]
Caller
So the reason why this is important is because one of the big applications of the let them theory is that there's four ways that you've allowed other people to have power in your life, and it's wasting your time and energy. And the first is you allow people to piss you off and stress you out and annoy you and worry you and hurt you and frustrate you. And you don't have to live like that. When you learn to just say, look, let them, Whether it is friends that go out without you this weekend and you see it online and you're hurt, feeling a little rejected, let them. Adults are allowed to do whatever they want to do. Adults are allowed to be friends with other people. Adults are allowed to go out and not include you. When you're an adult, expecting friendship destroys it. You got to be way more flexible. And so you say, let them in order to detach, because otherwise it's going to stress you out. And then you're going to get up in your head and you're going to have this whole scenario about what they were trying talking about. And then you're going to aim it back at yourself. And then you're going to be passive and weird the next time you see them. And that's not going to make your friendship stronger. And so you're going to say, let them. And it works. Because it's not the same thing as letting something go. See, I've never been able to let anything go because I'M very competitive, and I like to be right. And when somebody says, mel, you got to just let it go like your dad did, you're like, but I don't want to because that means defeat.
- [138:18]
Nick
Sure.
- [138:19]
Caller
Right. It means, like, I'm losing. Let them is different. When you see your friends going out and it hurts, which it should, because that's a normal reaction. That means you're actually mentally. Well, if you have that reaction, doesn't mean anything's wrong. What's wrong is how we process it and then become mad at other people and then we then make ourselves wrong. So when you say let them, something weird happens. You not only feel less stressed, but you also get this sense of superiority. Superiority.
- [138:49]
Nick
You're kind of acknowledging the feeling and then figuring out a more productive way of dealing with that feeling.
- [138:55]
Caller
Yes. And why this also works, Nick, is because it has deep application and roots in stoicism, Buddhism, detachment theory. So in two simple words, you are applying ancient wisdom, philosophy, and therapeutic modalities in a moment in my modern life. And that's why it works. And then you have to say the second part. Let me. Let me remind myself that what's in my control right now is not being passive and texting me, that was nice. Or whatever. What's in your control is what you think next, what you do or don't do, and what you do with your emotions. And if it's bothering you, then ask yourself. And this is what happened for me is the more I started saying, let me. Let me remind myself that my social life is not my friend's responsibility. It's fine. And let me remind myself before I get passive, that these are people that I actually like. And let me remind myself, wow, Mel, when's the last time you actually called any one of them and were interested in their life? When's the last time you invited anybody out? You start to see that it's easy to blame other people and avoid taking responsibility for creating what you want in your life.
- [140:04]
Nick
So you say the let me part where it's like, for me, as I've gotten older, what's allowed me to have a lot more peace and happiness in my life. Life.
- [140:12]
Caller
Yep.
- [140:12]
Nick
Like, for example, all these situations you mentioned, friends go out without you, don't invite you or something, and you have that initial feeling of hurt or anger. I'm able to at least put myself in their shoes.
- [140:24]
Caller
Right.
- [140:24]
Nick
What am I doing? Like, have I never wanted to hang out with someone? Have I ever wanted maybe just a call, you know? And that for me, just Allows me to be like, okay, I probably immediately, I'm a lot less triggered.
- [140:33]
Caller
Yes.
- [140:33]
Nick
Because I just took two seconds to just empathize or just put myself in their shoes and be like, okay, then I'll live. I'll calm down.
- [140:40]
Caller
But you also kind of assume good intent, but that's like higher level processing in the moment for most of us. Most of us are basically 8 year olds emotionally, and we're trapped in big bodies. And so let them helps you access a level of detachment, which then helps you access the ability to choose how you're going to respond. And if you look at the word responsibility, so you're ultimately taking responsibility for your responsibility life. Right? Responsibility is just the ability to respond. That's what it means. And when you start saying let them, and you stop giving power to other people, whether it's somebody you're dating or it's your mother's mood or it's your boss passing you over, you say, let them. And you recognize what's happening. This is who this person is, and you're not going to change them. Then you say, let me. And you remind yourself, wow, I have power here because I get to choose how much time and energy I spend with somebody. I get to choose, choose what conversations I'm in, what text chains I'm on, who I'm spending time with, who I'm not, what dinner tables I sit at, how long I sit in a date or an interview. I'm always in control. But I've been giving it away, which is why I don't see it. I've been looking to make somebody like me instead of literally coming back and being like, is this behavior a turnoff? Is this acceptable to me? There are three applications of the let them theory that I want to talk about with you because based on what you've shared with me, Nick, about the person that's spending time together with us right now and what they're probably going through or what their sister or their friends might be going through, these, to me, are the three biggest and most powerful applications. We're going to talk about love and dating and how to take a relationship to the next level in a powerful, powerful way. And I also want to talk about breakups because there's a lot of science that you should know and research about breakups and how you can use the let them theory to move through a breakup in a very powerful way. I also want to talk about chronic comparison and I want to talk about how you use the let them theory to stop navigating Your life around other people's moods and emotional immaturity, whether that's disappointment or guilt or passive aggressive behavior or the silent treatment. These are all extraordinarily powerful ways that you can take your power back in these areas of your life. So the first thing I want you to consider is there's obviously a tremendous amount of conversation out there about how toxic it is. Everybody feels that way. There's nobody that's like, yeah, I'm so excited to be dating. Everybody's complaining about it and everybody feels.
- [143:11]
Nick
This way, which I wish people would take a different approach.
- [143:14]
Caller
I do too. Because here's the thing, it's a means to an end.
- [143:16]
Nick
Stop trying to enjoy dating so much. It's just like. But find the joy.
- [143:19]
Caller
Well, not only that, stop bitching about online. And actually, when's the last time you talked to somebody who's standing behind you at the coffee shop?
- [143:25]
Nick
Sure, yeah.
- [143:26]
Caller
Do you have an open approach? Are you open to actually meeting somebody somewhere else?
- [143:31]
Nick
Yeah, I just, I always find it funny when people talk about dating as if it's like that someone else out there, some mythical person they want to be, is having a ball and it's just like, no. No one is. Because it's a means to an end. It's, it's, it's like it's going to the gym, you know, like there are people who like to go to the gym. Sure. But you're working out, you're breaking down your muscles, you're re building them back up, you're engaging with people. So, like, you're getting something out of it. But like, stop pretending that half the world out there is having a ball and you can't figure out why everyone else is having fun but you.
- [144:02]
Caller
True. And there's a lot. And the five second rule is going to help because I think you just have to have an open act attitude about where you meet people and being open to meeting people and talking to more people.
- [144:15]
Nick
Meeting people.
- [144:16]
Caller
Yes.
- [144:16]
Nick
Less meet, more meeting people. Less dating. More meeting people. Less like getting people to like you.
- [144:22]
Caller
Yes.
- [144:22]
Nick
You know?
- [144:22]
Caller
Yes. Okay. So you're in the beginning stages. Hopefully you're having fun. Hopefully the sex is great. But then you're gonna get to a moment where you're like, wow, I actually would like to spend more time and put more energy, energy into this relationship with this person. And so this is the moment where you're interested in a commitment. And the commitment could be anything. It could be being exclusive, it could be putting a label on it, it could be moving in Together it could be getting engaged, spending more time, spending more time together. Whatever a commitment means to you. This is where everybody makes a major mistake and everybody gives the power to the other person because you are afraid. Afraid to ask for what you want and deserve.
- [145:06]
Nick
Yeah, I always tell people, stop asking where we're at and just tell them what you want, you know?
- [145:10]
Caller
Well, there's a specific way I want you to tell them because ultimately the let them theory is about protecting your time and energy, which I know that you love because your entire experience of life is determined by where you pour your time and your energy. And if you are with somebody that you're pouring time and energy to and you're not sure where this is going, you are now the problem because you are not respecting your own time and energy. So all you're going to do is you're going to have a conversation with the person when you get to this point and you're just going to say, hey, I love spending time with you. I think you're amazing. This has been incredible. And I just know myself and I really respect my time. And I have gotten to a point where I only want to spend more time and pour more energy into this if we're going to do X. And if you don't feel, feel that way, that's totally cool. It's been amazing. But I just don't want to spend any more time or pour more energy into this.
- [146:01]
Nick
Yeah, perfect. Yeah.
- [146:02]
Caller
And here's what's perfect about it.
- [146:04]
Nick
Well, also, the one thing you do have to do after that is you have to let. Exactly. Whatever they do, you can't, you can't say, you can't renegotiate after you set a boundary, which I think that's the one big mistake people always do. They'll. Everyone talks about boundaries. Everyone likes throwing the word out, you know, and it's just, but it's just like, but once you said it, you actually have to mean it. You got to let them not respect your boundary. You can't be like, oh, but I'm just kidding. Actually, we'll keep.
- [146:28]
Caller
That's fine. You have to put a label on whatever.
- [146:31]
Nick
Yeah, exactly. Because that shit happens all the time.
- [146:33]
Caller
No kidding. But then that's not on them.
- [146:35]
Nick
That's on you.
- [146:35]
Caller
Yeah, that's on you 100%. And so you don't get to bitch about somebody else. If you've asked for what you've wanted, they've said no, and now you agree to it.
- [146:45]
Nick
And so the let them is just allowing yourself to Accept that better.
- [146:49]
Caller
And that's the hardest part.
- [146:51]
Nick
Sure.
- [146:51]
Caller
Because if you tell them what you want to pour time and energy into and they don't choose you, you have to let them. Because if you don't, you are now entering the most dangerous stage of a relationship, which is where it moves from reality to fantasy. The person has already told you that they don't want to be with you in that way. And so you are now placing all of the power in the other person because they don't actually want what you want. And so when you wake up a year from now and you realize you are now just another girlfriend on the way to their fiance, or you are just another convenience as they're shopping around for everybody else, that's not on the other person because they told you where you stand and you chose to be there. And it is not easy to say let them. But you have to if you actually want to meet the person that is going to make you truly happy. And that is a critical way to handle this. And you know, when you get into then a relationship and you're in a commitment, there's going to become that question. Because there's a ton of this now where people are like, was this the right person? Is there somebody better out there? And couple things to put into perspective. First of all, when you look at the research of couples that have gone the distance, 11% of people that have long term committed partnerships that are successful had the spark in the beginning, 89% of people are what they call a slow burn. It builds over time. And so if you're questioning because that thing wasn't there in the beginning, you're looking at the wrong stuff. That's number one. Number two, you have to look at the person as they are. If you're questioning the person and you're keep going, but well, if they got healthier, well, if they did this well and you are with the potential, then you're not in the reality of the person that you're actually having sex with. And you have to optimize, operate with the fundamental principles of human beings, which is people only change when they want to. And so let's break down the big question, which is you may be attracted, you may actually have a commitment. But when you're questioning if this is the right person, what you're now talking about is compatibility. And compatibility means you have shared values and you have a vision for your life that actually supports both of you. And when you start to question whether or not you are compatible, here is how you tell Whether or not the things that you're worried about are the big things that break you up or they're just the little bullshit that you need to learn to accept, most of the things that bother you about the person that you're with probably fall into in about 69% of what people bicker about and can't stand about each other. And the research comes from the Gottman Institute, the married couple. As I'm sure you know. These are just things that are never changing. Never changing.
- [149:43]
Nick
Yeah. Like I'm gonna leave cabinet doors open for the rest of my life.
- [149:46]
Caller
Of course. Let them. Let them. And there's parts of the person that you are choosing to love that you've got to learn to love them as they are and as they aren't. And when you ask yourself, the things that frustrate me, are these things that literally, are they skills that they can build, are they just things that bug the hell out of me, but they don't really matter? And the way that you tell whether or not something is a deal breaker is A, can you stop bitching about it? Because if you can't stop bitching about it, you're going to hold it over the other person's head and resentment's going to build. And B, does it fall into a deeper category? And how you know this is. Either it makes you have to. To go against something you deeply value, or it requires you to give up on a dream. If you have either one of those two things that you deeply value. Family. And you've always wanted to have kids. And the person with your, you know, are like, well, I don't really know.
- [150:41]
Nick
And family's time is.
- [150:43]
Caller
Yeah, yeah.
- [150:44]
Nick
Can do without them.
- [150:44]
Caller
Yeah. And you're up here going, this can change. This can change. No, you gotta let them show you who you are. And this is not easy.
- [150:54]
Nick
I would even add the people who don't think they want to have kids, but maybe someday. No, you should bank on the fact that they won't change.
- [151:04]
Caller
Well, one of the reasons why this is critical is because this is one of the things in life that actually has a window of time to it.
- [151:11]
Nick
Sure.
- [151:12]
Caller
And so if you're with somebody who isn't sure and they're not willing to participate in it because. Because you want it, you have to understand that you are giving up on a dream of yours, and you are the one gaslighting yourself saying, this is okay. And instead you need to say, let them. Let them reveal to you what they actually want and then come back to, let me Let me remind myself I gotta take responsibility for my life and my happiness and my dreams and the things that I want. Let me remind myself that there's 8 billion people in the world and there are a lot of people out there that can make me feel great, that would love to have a family. And.
- [151:52]
Nick
And you're only looking for one life partner.
- [151:54]
Caller
Yes. Yes. And so if you can't stop bitching about it and learn to love them as they are and as they aren't and assume they're not changing, because most people don't. Because what are we learning? People only change when they feel like it, and they're not gonna change for you. That's the other hard thing. People don't change for their children. They don't change for their partners. They change for themselves. And so you gotta look at somebody and say, are there things about them that bug me? Are these things that I can learn to live with, knowing that over time they may change, but can I choose it if it doesn't? Because this person provides all the things that are actually important. Like I say to my daughters, the thing that's most important is that the person feels like home base. That when you come home from being out in the world and out in your life, that you actually feel like it's coming to, like, home base and a game attack. And if you can have that feeling of peace and your shoulders drop and that's your person, then you're with your person. And most of the other bullshit you're gonna figure out. Because what I've learned in 28 years of being married and Chris is my most favorite person on the planet, we have been through hell and back. I mean, nearly lost it all, nearly lost each other, like up and down and raising three kids is that you only need two things to make a relationship work, but it's the biggest things, period. You have to have two people who want it to work. And if you look back on any relationship where you either broke it off or they did, you will see that one of you stopped wanting it to work way before the relationship ended.
- [153:23]
Nick
You stopped choosing to want to participate, trying give a shit, make an effort.
- [153:29]
Caller
And that's the second thing. You got to both be willing to work on it. And what I want you to imagine the next time you think about a relationship is imagine a teeter totter on a playground. Because what's going to happen in your relationship the entire time you're together is the teeter totter is going to go up, it's going to go down there are going to be times you're going to be in balance. And the most important thing about making that teeter totter work is that you're both on it. The second one of you leans back or steps off and, and it's very helpful to see it that way because you can even ask yourself if you're in a relationship, am I even on the damn teeter totter right now or did I already step off? Because if you're questioning it, you're probably already gone. And if you're questioning them, they're probably already gone. And that brings me to breakups. So one of the interesting things about this book is my 25 year old daughter and I wrote it together.
- [154:22]
Nick
Oh really?
- [154:23]
Caller
Yeah. And as we. And it's great because then it's got the huge range of perspective in every category that we talk about from comparison to stress, to worrying about people's feelings. And when it comes to other people and what they're thinking, you have to let them think negative thoughts. That's the trick. Just say let them think negative thoughts the next time you open up your favorite social media account. And this is gonna put this like front and center. You know how you open up a social media account and then you pick a photo and then you're like set right photo and then you start swiping through the filters and then you question the photo and then you move to the caption and then you write the caption, then you delete. Am I too much? Is it this? Should I do all caps? Should I do the emoji?
- [155:03]
Nick
Sure.
- [155:03]
Caller
Are they going to think that? Who? Who? Before you even post something, you've already given power to another person and now you're learning that you can never control what they think and you can't guarantee what somebody's going to think regardless of what you do. And by the way, your social media account is your self expression. You want to be an influencer. Who gives a fuck what your college friends think. You want to sing your songs and start your YouTube channel and post a photo of yourself in a bikini. It's not for your friends, it's for you. But before you even post the thing, you have handed all the power to something you can't even control, which is what people are going to do in response response to it. And you've robbed yourself of your self expression. So you want to know why you're insecure. Take a look at your drafts on social media because there's hundreds of them stored there and that's evidence that's a graveyard of all your hopes and dreams right there. And you just gave all your power to somebody else and to something you can't even control. It's just ridiculous.
- [156:05]
Nick
You never know who that someone else is on social media.
- [156:07]
Caller
Let them think a negative thought. It's liberating. Because if you can't control it, don't you dare waste an ounce of your energy or your precious time on it. Take the time back. Take the power back and remind yourself. Let me remind myself, this is my social media channel. I get to say what I want. I get to post what I want. And every time I post something that's aligned with the person I want to be, I actually feel more confident. And so when we were writing this book, because you're going to keep using this and you're going to keep noticing. Jesus. I just give all my power to people's moods and their opinions. I can't control any of this shit. Why am I everybody's parent? Like, enough. Let them live their lives. Let adults be adults. Let me show up in a way that makes me proud. Because when you're proud of yourself, you don't even think about other people and what they think. You just show up in a way that makes you proud. And you're actually better in your relationships because you're not needy. And so on the topic of breakups, we were writing this book and we got to the section on breakups, and we're doing like all this research around the let them theory and researching how people have been using it around the world. And her boyfriend of two years breaks up with her and she's like, rip up this shit. The let them theory sucks. I don't want. Because when someone leaves and breaks your heart, you don't want to let them.
- [157:24]
Nick
Yeah, I mean, you feel abandoned, of course.
- [157:27]
Caller
And the let them theory doesn't make it easy. It actually makes you move through it. And the longer that you hold on to something that's gone, the longer you trap yourself in a life that has ended.
- [157:44]
Nick
Yeah, I mean, that's when I learned through my toughest breakups is there's that initial abandonment, the pain, the heartbreak. And I don't know if there's like, you've done a lot of research in terms of how long in terms of those feelings, but I had found that just I had held on to the pain so much longer than I needed to, in fact, that I. I always talk about how, like, in a lot of cases, I think people hold on to the pain because it's Kind of the, the only thing they have left of the relationship, you know, the only memory they have, the pictures, the, the, the. Oh, all the memories used to have. Because that's that last step of getting over someone. Because when you really let go of that, then you're really done. And we don't want to let go of that because we don't want to be done. So we stay in the pain and ruminate in there. And I had to learn the hard way of getting through that because it was just hanging onto that pain because I just didn't want to let go.
- [158:36]
Caller
Right. Plus the world wouldn't let go. You had also a magnified version, because even if you had tried, the world kept trying to remind you.
- [158:46]
Nick
Sure.
- [158:46]
Caller
And that's its own.
- [158:47]
Nick
Well, that was me being like, I only see Ford Focus. She drove a Ford Focus. And I would only, you know, it's like. But then I realized, looking for it.
- [158:54]
Caller
Well, that's you magnifying your brain.
- [158:56]
Nick
Exactly. I was telling myself over and over that I couldn't help it, you know.
- [159:00]
Caller
But the let them theory does work for breakups. And the most important thing is you have to let them leave. And you're gonna be saying, let them, let them, let them, let them. And I have very specific guidance on the protocol to follow in order to move through a breakup, because the only way to do it is to go through it. And breaking up is grieving. That's what it is. Because a version of your life has just died and you didn't want it to. And you're right. That's why we hold on. And so the first thing that you're going to have to do, that you're not going to do. And if you haven't gotten over somebody yet, you're still holding on. Six months later, a year later, five years later, you have not done what I'm about to tell you you need to do. You have to go through a 30 day detox. And that means you got to remove their photos from the family digital frame. You have to remove their stuff from your bedroom. You have to not listen to any voice memos or you cannot follow them online or look at their. Their location.
- [160:02]
Nick
A purge.
- [160:03]
Caller
Well, here's why. Because you're not just learning how to move on.
- [160:08]
Nick
You're recalibrating your life.
- [160:09]
Caller
You have to break the patterns in your nursery nervous system and in your brain. See, you have been encoded in living your life with them. And the process of breaking up is actually breaking apart all the patterns that got encoded in your nervous system and your body just like grieving. This is why when you wake up in your bed, you can feel them there. That's your nervous system remembering something. It's just like when you stop vaping or you stop drinking, you have to go through a withdrawal because your body remembers members. That doesn't mean they're meant for you. That doesn't mean you should call them and that doesn't mean they're thinking about you. It's your body breaking apart life the way that you knew it. And every time you look at a video or you check a location and worse, do not watch videos, do not listen to voice memos, because it is really activating your nervous system. And this comes from a recommendation from my therapist, Ann Davin, who's the smartest person I've ever met, when she started to explain heartbreak in terms of neuroscience and your nervous system, it makes perfect sense. And if you can for 30 days be in a depressive state and not look and keep saying let them. And when you go to retreat, five, four, three, two, one, push it away. If you can do that, you accelerate your ability to start moving forward. But if you're still holding on to something, you have never actually gone through that 30 day purge. And so every time you look at the person's stuff and you watch their life playing out from far away, you are actually reactivating patterns in your body and keeping somebody that has left you and who is dead alive.
- [161:53]
Nick
Yeah.
- [161:54]
Caller
And that's what you have to do.
- [161:56]
Nick
Also the. Yeah, close the loopholes too. My loophole was always finding like the, the acquaintance who wanted to talk about my misery with me. And then when I'd wear them out, I'd find another acquaintance and I would just find people who would be willing to commiserate with me even though I wasn't looking at pictures or reading letters and things like that. So you also got to close those loopholes.
- [162:16]
Caller
Excellent point. The second thing to know that's helpful, at least it's helpful for me because I always think I'm the only one going through something when I'm in it, is that the majority of people start to feel better about the election. 11 week mark. And the reason why is you've had enough distance from it. As long as you're not commiserating and marinating in it like Nick does and listening to voice memos, that you're starting to move forward. And so if you knew that that's what it was going to take to truly start to let them leave and let me accept the reality of what's going on. And let me stop holding on to something that's over. Let me give myself the grace to grieve this and to unlearn these patterns and to resist the urge to reach out and let me start to step forward into the next chapter of my life. And then my therapist had the best question ever. She basically said, if you knew that the love of your life were about a year away, that you were. The love of your life is in the future, not in the past. In the future, what would you do at this time right now?
- [163:15]
Nick
You'd go be single. You'd have some fun. You'd go to school, invest in yourself. Yeah, but you get to choose. It'd be different. Yeah.
- [163:22]
Caller
Any time and energy that you pour into the person that already left you is time and energy that you could be pouring into yourself.
- [163:30]
Nick
Who knows what you could be doing?
- [163:31]
Caller
Correct. Well, you get to choose. And that's where your power is.
- [163:34]
Nick
Yeah. Mel, this has been so much fun. I'm sure we could talk about it this for hours. It's always fun to talk to like minds and have a similar outlook on love and relationships and most specifically, protecting your power, you know, protecting your energy. I'm going to dive into this book pre order now. Anywhere you get books, you can buy.
- [163:51]
Caller
It absolutely anywhere, in any language, audiobook, ebook, absolutely anywhere. And your sister doesn't need another sweater. She needs tools to make her life better. So get her this book.
- [164:01]
Nick
There you go. Get her this book. Mal, thank you very much. Where can people follow you?
- [164:06]
Caller
Anywhere.
- [164:06]
Nick
Anywhere. Follow Mel. Hope you enjoy this episode. We'll see you tomorrow.