Rachel (2:33)

Hi, I'm Rachel. I'm 31.

Unknown (2:34)

How can we help, Rachel?

Rachel (2:36)

We went ring shopping, and then my boyfriend told me after that the relationship has been a burden.

Unknown (2:41)

Okay. Are you still together?

Rachel (2:42)

Yes.

Unknown (2:43)

Okay. All right.

Rachel (2:44)

We live together.

Unknown (2:45)

You live together. All right. So as. As far as we know, we're together, we're not actually worried about breaking up. We. He just said something that I'm assuming you felt was very hurtful.

Rachel (2:55)

So there's been more that's happened since then. Okay. We are figuring out if we're gonna stay together right now.

Unknown (3:02)

Okay.

Rachel (3:03)

So that was, like, a couple weeks ago. To be fair, the relationship has been a burden on him. He's really overextended himself with, like, work and just, like, eating a lot.

Unknown (3:13)

Why do you say that, though? I don't. I mean, I don't care that he's been busy at work. I. You know, a lot of people are busy. But why are you so quickly to concede that a relationship with you has been a burden to him?

Rachel (3:27)

It's been, like, a lot emotionally, like, every weekend, kind of getting into these, like, spirals together, just kind of emotionally exhausting. And we have been, like, really trying to work on that. And then this past weekend, it's all kind of come to a bit of a head where we just had, like, a little thing that kind of just energetically sent us into one of these spirals where just felt very, like, walled off. And I shared with him that I'm just, like, feeling really defeated and powerless, and I don't really know what to do. I feel like I'm putting in everything I can for this relationship. And he agreed. And this was just, like, the first time that he said, too, that he. That we were just feeling really powerless and defeated about, like, how to change our dynamic together because we love each other very much or, like, very. Have been very committed.

Unknown (4:20)

How would you describe. How would you describe your dynamic?

Rachel (4:23)

That's a great question. Could I describe what it looks like a little bit?

Unknown (4:27)

Sure. Yeah.

Rachel (4:28)

Yeah. So we're just, like, get very sensitive to each other's words in certain moments. I've been realizing that I've just been very attached to this idea of, like, getting married and very much, like, wanting this particular outcome. I've said that from, like, the very beginning and early stages of dating that I wanted to get married initially. Like, he always kind of, like, was like, yeah, that's an option. And then, like, about a year in, started to show some anxiety around that. And then there's just been a lot of pressure built up around this idea that, like, we're going to get engaged this year and had been really driving towards that. And then, like, the more that that has been built up, when we have these, like, little things, like this weekend, it was about, like, getting dish soap or something. Just, like, the energy shifts. I get very anxious. He gets, like, emotionally withdrawn, and it just, like, feels like we can't connect.

Unknown (5:22)

So what about dish soap is making you anxious and. And him withdrawal?

Rachel (5:27)

Yeah, like a. Like a. Like that. My tone. So he was like, I'm gonna go to CVS and get this thing. And I said, oh, can you get dish soap on there, too? And he said, text me if we need anything else. And I just, like, I was in a rush, and I was just like, I don't have, like, an inventory of what we need. And it was just kind of like that.

Unknown (5:44)

Like, why'd you judge critical? Yeah. Why'd you say it like that?

Unknown (5:48)

Yeah.

Unknown (5:48)

He didn't ask if you had an inventory. He asked if you could take a moment to go look and then let him know or not.

Rachel (5:57)

Totally. And so it was just, like, this unconscious moment.

Unknown (6:00)

Sure.

Rachel (6:01)

And it's just felt like I have to be, like, kind of perfect. I've been spending a lot of time.

Unknown (6:06)

Thinking about, you have to be perfect or he has to be perfect.

Rachel (6:09)

I feel like I have to be perfect. Like, those little unconscious moments, which I don't want to do. Like, I spend a lot of time.

Unknown (6:15)

What do you mean? You have to feel like you have to be perfect.

Rachel (6:17)

Perfect in order for, like, the relationship to move forward, for him to feel, like it's, like, to get it.

Unknown (6:25)

Okay. To get engaged, you feel like you have to be perfect. Gotcha. Okay.

Rachel (6:28)

Yeah. Like, I took that burden comment really personally and, like, really struggled to, like, receive that. It was in the context of, like, we were. So we did this, like, couples workshop months ago, and, like, there's, like, this forgiveness conversation template. And so it was in the context of that where he was like, I need you to, like, acknowledge how hard this year has been for me and just, like, how emotionally exhausting it's been. It's felt like a burden at times. And then, like, I really took that to heart. So Is this session.

Unknown (6:55)

And was this year hard for him because of you in the relationship, or are there other aspects, like work and.

Rachel (7:02)

Both.

Unknown (7:03)

Okay.

Rachel (7:03)

Yes, both. Oh, yeah.

Unknown (7:05)

Okay. Well, how much of it has been work?

Rachel (7:08)

A good portion, but I think they feed into each other of, like, feeling exhausted at the end of the weekend going into Monday, just, like, depleted. To be in the context that he's made the burden comment, he did say, like, I don't currently feel this way. I just need, like, some acknowledgment of, like, how much, like, I've overextended myself. And, like, you know, we've also been talking a lot about his boundaries of, like, not telling me that he wasn't really, like, able to give more.

Unknown (7:35)

Give more. Okay, you're.

Rachel (7:38)

Yeah. So I.

Unknown (7:39)

Speak more. I can. Do me a favor. Yeah, yeah. Talk more. Try to. Try to be more specific and what you mean in terms of when you say, you know. Because it's like, is it work? Is it the relationship? Is it, like, what is he. What is he sacrificing?

Rachel (7:51)

I mean, I think, if I had to guess, he feels like he's like. He sacrificed kind of some of his own voice. Like, I feel like he has been driving towards this engagement as a way to, like, appease my anxiety. And he's been telling me with his words that that's what he wanted, and, like, things are okay. But I'm realizing in the last few days that, like, his behaviors haven't necessarily matched up, and that's where my anxiety was coming from of, like, the inconsistencies in his behavior and his words. And so, you know, when we go ring shopping and then he, like, pulls back like that, like, why are we there if he's not fully on board? And then that would kind of send, like, me into some sort of spiral, you know, anxiety, wanting, like, reassurance.

Unknown (8:41)

Is this, like, a daily event with you guys?

Rachel (8:44)

It's been weekly.

Unknown (8:45)

Okay.

Rachel (8:45)

For a while. And so we're kind of at this point of, like, this happened over the weekend, and we just started, like, taking some space right now. I'm gonna sleep at a friend's house.

Unknown (8:54)

You're gonna sleep at a friend's house?

Rachel (8:56)

Yeah. Just to get a little more space while we can. Before we can come. I want to enter the next conversations we have, like, more grounded.

Unknown (9:04)

And what is sleeping at your friend's house going to do?

Rachel (9:06)

I feel like we've just been caught up in each other's energy, you know, like.

Unknown (9:11)

Fair enough. How did you guys resolve this? The. The dish Soap situation.

Rachel (9:15)

Yeah. So later that day or I apologized multiple times and just said like, I'm, like I'm sorry. Like that was just, you know, I didn't mean to mean to do that. I'm really sorry.

Unknown (9:25)

What was his response to that?

Rachel (9:26)

He just like kind of struggled to let it go. Later in the day we went on a walk. Not like us barely talked. And on the way home I just kind of. That's when I said like, I feel really defeated and powerless right now of like how to change this. Like, I love you so much. I, I want to be with you.

Unknown (9:43)

And is there a but though, for you?

Rachel (9:46)

That's what I, I'm. What I'm trying to figure out is what does it look like to have full commitment right now with each other? Because again, my therapist says that my relationship to the idea of marriage is messed up and that I'm, I've been looking for it as a place of like safety when you know, the only safety that we have is commitment to each other and our, our commitment that like we can grow.

Unknown (10:12)

I would definitely agree with your therapist. Yeah, you're. The way you talk about marriage just in our very brief conversation. It's like you've decided that marriage is like you said, if you can get there, if you can just get across that finish line, then everything will be okay. Then you can just stop worrying then because you'll have a husband and he'll be stuck with you forever and you'll never have to worry about being alone again because you'll have your husband.

Rachel (10:37)

I think I have been hyper focused on that and I'm realizing, can you.

Unknown (10:42)

Change your viewpoint and let that go? Because based off of talking to you, it sounds like that would probably be a subconscious thought you have towards marriage. I mean when you articulate it, it's, you know, your subconscious thought and your conscious thoughts seem to be pretty aligned. But more, more specifically, I guess how I'm trying to say it is this like your subconscious thought is probably causing you to ways towards him that make you feel like a burden. You know, I guess it's the lack of a better way of saying it. And yeah, it's, it's, you know, in terms of how you are acting towards him. A lot of that is probably cause in terms of, of of that. Have you looked into your like attachment style?

Rachel (11:25)

I mean, I'm sure it's anxious.

Unknown (11:27)

I'm, I'm, I'm not an expert. Yeah. But you know, listen, it. I do think people look up attachment styles sometimes for the Wrong reasons and apply the information, they learn the wrong reasons. But I think it is. It's nice. Like, I know by talking to my therapist, I have a bit of abandonment issues, so to speak. I don't like, lead with it, like, oh, it's my abandonment issues. But, you know, every once in a while when I feel triggered, it is nice to be able to name that so that I can clock it, so to speak. And then instead of leaning into my being triggered, it's basically an opportunity for me to be like, well, maybe that's just like my, you know, abandonment issues causing me to feel these intense feelings. Now, it doesn't make. It doesn't disqualify the feelings I'm having, but it allows me to calm down a little bit, you know, because like, when we feel the way we feel, we want to articulate our feelings to our partners. We want our partners to hear us. But sometimes what stops us from being able to accurately communicate how we're feeling in a way that our partner can receive it is often ruined by how we approach communicating that feeling. And if we get triggered, we reactivate. We're. We have these intense feelings. And when we're. When we're kind of triggered and feelings. Intense feelings, then we're not capable of articulating things or a feeling. And then we sometimes yell at them and make comments like, I don't know, you know, the inventory or whatever, the totally.

Rachel (12:49)

So I think I'm deeply afraid that maybe he's hold he. That his resistance or the discrepancy in his words and behaviors around marriage is like his deep down. Like, he's holding me at arm's length and isn't really committed to the way he says.

Unknown (13:04)

I mean, you know, he's there. I mean, what's the. Listen when it comes to trust, Trust is a choice. I really. I really believe that, you know, and you can be wrong, right? You can choose to trust and you can realize I shouldn't have trusted that person, you know, in that moment at least. But you have to actively choose to trust someone because you can actively choose not to trust people too. And that's what your default is, to not trust your partner. How recently have has your therapist revealed to you your. Your view on marriage and that it needs maybe some work?

Rachel (13:37)

We saw her for the first time, maybe like 18 months in, and she kind of said something to this effect. And I was very resistant to giving up the idea of wanting marriage as like a goal for us.

Unknown (13:50)

I don't think you should give up marriage as A goal for either you or this relationship. It's how you approach that goal and how you go about achieving that goal.

Rachel (14:02)

Totally.

Unknown (14:02)

That's what matters, you know?

Rachel (14:05)

Absolutely. Yeah.

Unknown (14:06)

So it's a go. I don't think your goal is the problem.

Rachel (14:09)

Yeah, right. It's the seeking safety in that. Instead of looking at what I have, it's the thinking that that will solve something in me.

Unknown (14:18)

Exactly. Because it won't. You know, like you. You people get divorced all the time. People get engaged all the time. It just makes it. It just makes it more of a pain in the ass, to be honest. Like, the only thing that makes relationship works Is a desire to make it work from both parties. I think that's it, you know?

Rachel (14:35)

Yeah.

Unknown (14:36)

You just both have to want to wake up and choose to figure it out.

Rachel (14:39)

Yeah.

Unknown (14:40)

People give up in situations like you're describing when they lose hope or they feel like they've tried everything and they can't get anywhere.

Rachel (14:50)

And I think he feels like he's giving so much and like. And I'm still not happy because I want that one particular thing.

Unknown (14:57)

Can you let that thing go?

Rachel (14:59)

I want to be able. I want to have the mental flexibility to see how else we could define full commitment. He has a lot of trauma. His parents have each been divorced three times. So there's a lot of fear there about marriage on his side. So I understand some of his, like, fears also. Part of it has nothing to do with me.

Unknown (15:19)

Sure. But I forgetting about his trauma or your trauma or whatever. Again, like, as a. You seem highly intelligent, self aware, but, like, can you wrap your brain around the idea that if you can, if you can, like, you and I can sit here and talk and you can acknowledge that marriage is not going to give you the security that you desire. Because at the end of the day, to me, when I'm hearing from you, this is about you finding security.

Rachel (15:52)

Yeah.

Unknown (15:53)

You know, you want to feel secure and safe in this relationship. Okay. That's a valid feeling, a goal to have. We all want to feel safe and secure. You, somewhere along the lines, have decided that marriage is that security and safety that you need. Right. But through this conversation, you can also acknowledge that is a misguided, inaccurate viewpoint of what marriage is, especially in 2024. I mean, listen. Yeah. Back in 1950, you, marriage might have been this. You know, it's like, yeah, he can't even. He can't leave me. I mean, he also thinks of me as his property, but, hey, at least I'm secure. You know what I'M saying, like, if you wanted to go there, you. You know, marriage used to have the security, but it's not. It's 20, 24. And thankfully, it. Women aren't seen as property as it relates to marriage. Women have as much agency as men, and you have the freedom to remove yourself from a situation that's no longer serving you. If it's no longer serving you. Right. It's more costly, it's inconvenient, it requires lawyers. But we now can leave any type of relationship, including a marriage, if it's no longer serving us. And serving us might mean a variety of different things to different people. Right. So if you can just you and I, you're saying, yes, you can acknowledge all that. Why can't you just implement that mindset into your life? Why can't you just realize that, like, listen, if I want security in my relationship, then I need to work with my partner on finding out how we can both do that. So I can feel like every day we wake up and choose, and today we choose each other, and then tomorrow I hope that we choose each other again on some level. On that mindset, there's a little bit of, like, uncertainty because, hey, every day you got to choose each other, and you don't know if he's going to choose you tomorrow, even though he's choosing you today.

Rachel (17:48)

Yep.

Unknown (17:49)

But every day that goes by where you are more connected with your partner than disconnected, it vastly increases the chances of you choosing each other. So just, like, using logic, you know, why can't you tell yourself that you don't need marriage to get the thing that you ultimately want, which is security?

Rachel (18:09)

That's a great question that I'm grappling with. How do I.

Unknown (18:12)

Well, why can't you just decide? Maybe I'm oversimplifying it. I didn't say, you know, we didn't. It's not like I saw you on the street and we had. We shared an elevator, and randomly you're like, I need to get married to be secure. And I was like, no, you don't. And then I walked out the elevator, you know, and you'd be like, well, what do you mean you don't. You're like, sure, but we just talked about why you don't. Right.

Rachel (18:38)

Yeah.

Unknown (18:39)

So now you know the why. You don't need to. Why can't you implement the why into your life?

Rachel (18:45)

Yeah, I don't know. I, like, therapists, use the word brainwashing of like. Just like, I've come to believe that. Yeah, I. I'VE somewhere in my subconscious that is like, if a man loves you, he does this. And yeah, it's an outdated.

Unknown (19:00)

But do you change your logic? I mean, have you ever had, like, an aha moment in your life where you thought one thing and then someone, like, showed you something? You're like, holy shit. Like, totally. Yeah. Well, did you. Did you struggle to still believe the thing that they showed you that opened your eyes to, like, a new. A new truth, so to speak?

Rachel (19:20)

Right. No. Right. I can't even think, like, a specific example, but.

Unknown (19:24)

I know, but you get the logic on.

Rachel (19:26)

I understand what you're saying. Yeah. It is just kind of a complete.

Unknown (19:28)

Like, the way you're talking to me and the way you're acting is like, we're you. You see the truth. Like, someone's like, hey, you know, marriage used to be this, but actually it's this now, and I'm showing you the two, and you're like, oh, no, I totally see that now. But I'm still gonna. I'm. Whatever. I still see it this way, and I can't help but see it that way. I don't. Like, it's. To me, what I'm hearing is you don't want to see it differently and you're choosing not to see a different, even though you say you want to.

Rachel (19:56)

I want to get out of my own way. No, I very much want to get.

Allie (19:59)

Out of my own way.

Rachel (20:00)

I see that I'm in my way.

Unknown (20:02)

So I guess part of it. It starts by saying every. Like. Right. Let's say we. Like. I got, like. I gotta go. I got. I hung up the phone. You. I'm like, we left. You never talked to me again. Yeah, you're. I. I don't doubt that your subconscious brain and. And how you're. And how your subconscious brain makes your body feel in moments of anxiousness or anxiety. That's not gonna change overnight. But when that does happen, you know, when you're. When your body and your subconscious brain starts obsessing over why hasn't he proposed to me or why haven't we got married? Why can't you consciously say to yourself, what. What would. That. That wouldn't get me. The security I'm desiring. Like, marriage isn't giving me that. What are you. Are you having those conversations with yourself? Because it's. You need to do that, like, to change how you think. You have to start reminding yourself, you know, your default is to a. To attach security to marriage. That's your default. You have to change your Default. And to change your default, you kind of have to keep reminding yourself that that's wrong, even though that's how your body feels, maybe.

Rachel (21:15)

Right. And I guess I think the thing that's in my way is how do I hold the desire for it, for marriage, and, yeah, that kind of commitment, while also understanding that that is not the thing that gives me ultimate security.

Unknown (21:29)

Well, you can, because you, I don't know, you make it a goal, you say. I mean, I don't know, like, for me, I, I, I. I grew up in a very traditional household, right. And very traditional values. And, and so as a young man, I shared in those traditional values and, and very much wanted to get married and have the kids and have the whole whatever the fuck, you know. Didn't work out for me in my 20s the way I had planned. Right. In my 30s, I was given some unique opportunities to take some risks with my life. I said yes to those risks dated throughout my 30s and then by, you know, late into my 30s and 40s, as I was still very much had a desire to be a father and very much had a desire to have a life partner. My desire to get married was like, I was like, I don't know. I mean, I'll. If the person I fall in love with wants to get married, then sure, I'm not against marriage, but, like, I stopped thinking that marriage was going to get me what I wanted, which was the connection. I wanted to have a shared life with someone.

Rachel (22:29)

Right.

Unknown (22:30)

And so it was more like, yeah, sure, I want to get married, but, like, it went from being this thing, this benchmark of my life, this measuring stick of success in my relationships.

Rachel (22:41)

Yeah.

Unknown (22:41)

To be, like, something I was still, like, open to doing, but I understood the finer details of what went into the thing I desired, you know, which is the connection, the security, the shared experience with someone for the rest of my life. A teammate, you know, a partner, you.

Rachel (23:00)

Know, what about the logistical aspect of it? Like, I don't know, I feel like there's this threat of, like, combining finances or, like, doing other, like, big things like that, you know, someday buying a house, like, with someone who you're not married to. Like, I know people do that, of course. It's just like, for me, it's been, like, scary and has extra uncertainty around it.

Unknown (23:23)

Which part? What's. Be more specific, like, the, you know.

Rachel (23:27)

Legal aspects of, like, buying a house. And then if you split up, are.

Unknown (23:30)

You buying a house?

Rachel (23:31)

Protections? Yeah, something like that.

Unknown (23:33)

But no, I'm asking you, are you buying a house?

Rachel (23:36)

No, no, no. I'm just. No.

Unknown (23:38)

I guess my answer to your question is worry about those problems as they come along. Like, do you have a job?

Rachel (23:43)

Okay, I have a job. Yes.

Unknown (23:45)

Are you into Do. So you. You can afford to take care of yourself?

Rachel (23:48)

Totally.

Unknown (23:49)

Can he afford to take care of himself?

Rachel (23:51)

Totally.

Unknown (23:51)

Then there you go.

Rachel (23:53)

Yeah. Yeah.

Unknown (23:54)

I mean, you know what I'm saying? Like, you're. You're worrying about problems that aren't problems, and then you're making them problems, and then you're at. And then you're expecting both of you to solve a problem that doesn't even exist, and that takes, you know, energy and stress, and you are creating problems that aren't there, and it's taking both of your energy to solve these problems that aren't even problems. Like, when are we gonna get married? What? How do we buy a house together? I mean, I don't think you should buy a house together. You know, one of you should buy a house and the other person should pay rent. You know, and you will both be glad that you did that in case something doesn't happen. And. Yeah. And then they're like, oh, well, that's the thing. I. I'm worried about. I don't want to. Like, he can divorce you. You can force him. You know, it's just way more complicated, you know?

Rachel (24:41)

Yeah.

Unknown (24:42)

And you don't want to be the reason you guys stay together be. Because it's hard to break up.

Rachel (24:48)

Right. And I also don't want to force him into a future, drag him into my version of the future if he doesn't fully, like, fuck, yes. Want it correct.

Unknown (25:00)

Now, granted, like, I do think, you know, non negotiables are, you know, you should want to know if he is interested in having children.

Rachel (25:07)

Yeah, he is.

Unknown (25:08)

Okay.

Rachel (25:08)

We're on the same page with that.

Unknown (25:09)

Great. Right. So that matters as far as marriage.

Rachel (25:13)

Yeah.

Unknown (25:13)

You know, less important, because again, as we just discussed, what is really marriage in 2024 other than, like, you know, maybe that final step of, like, I'm really in this thing, you know, and we're committed to each other, but even then, you know, it's. All it is, is a contract and a ceremony, but it's just doesn't really give you that much more security. Thank you.

Rachel (25:36)

This is helpful. Just like, seeing. Yeah. The getting out of my own way has to be recognizing that and having that internal dialogue that. That. That is the wrong place to seek safety.

Unknown (25:46)

Yeah.

Rachel (25:46)

I just hope that he'll still choose me. We're kind of at this, we're at a, we're at a real fork in the road right now. His energy has shifted and I've been through breakups before, I can tell.

Unknown (25:57)

Sure. Yeah, I hear you.

Rachel (25:58)

Something's, yeah, something's different now and I'm not sure if he's going to keep choosing me.

Unknown (26:04)

Well, I'm sorry you're going through that, you know, but listen, I, I think men in general like how we get how we are talked to matters.

Rachel (26:17)

Yeah.

Unknown (26:17)

You know, after a while, men, all they want is a cheerleader. They really do. That's all they want. They just want someone who believes in them, who cheers them on, supports them, pats them on the back. And when you need to give them tough love, give them tough love. They don't, they do not want a mom.

Rachel (26:31)

Yeah, I've had that realization recently that I was mothering and pulled back on that and he saw a shift immediately and was like so happy about it and just really gave me a lot of affirmation that like, that's how he wants me to show up. And when I show up like that, he feels so much better and like, better about our future. And.

Unknown (26:51)

Yeah, I mean, he didn't go ring shopping because he wanted to get engaged. He went ring shopping to shut you up, probably, you know.

Rachel (26:59)

Yeah, yeah, he went ring shopping to appease me because. Afraid of losing me. And.

Unknown (27:04)

Yeah. So I mean, listen, I, I, you, you have, you have to make the choice.

Rachel (27:09)

Yeah.

Unknown (27:10)

And you have, I think my, you know, non expert opinion is like at some level you just have to decide whether you want to change your thought process or not. I mean, yeah, there's work to do along the way and you'll, every day you'll have moments of weakness, of wanting to give in to conscious thoughts, but you have the emotional maturity, I'm assuming, and the intel and the. Yeah, you do. And, but you have to make that choice. You have to make that choice to remind yourself and, and if you need to say it out loud yourself, say it out loud. Take it off the table. What changes, what really changes in your relationship when you're just, I don't know, Marriage. I don't know, like, whatever. I don't know.

Rachel (27:48)

Right. Yeah.

Unknown (27:50)

I don't want to have kids with this man until we're ready to have kids. We're not ready to have kids. But I'm glad that I'm with someone who wants to have kids as, as marriage, we'll, we'll get married when we both feel like it's a smart, safe Thing to. To do financially. But, like, every time he is like, hey, I'm gonna go on a grocery run and. And he asks you a question and you lose your on him for no reason, that ain't gonna make him want to go ring shopping. And we all have moments of frustration, but you, again, you're frustrated about a problem you're creating.

Rachel (28:22)

Yeah.

Unknown (28:23)

And so then you're constantly frustrated.

Rachel (28:25)

Yeah.

Unknown (28:25)

And the solution to your frustrations is for him to do something he's not comfortable doing because he's only doing it to, like, have you be less mean to him.

Rachel (28:36)

That's true. And I want to be the kind of person. I believe that I. I mean, I believe that I am someone who's capable of growth. I want to be the person who has that mental flexibility to get out of that rigid mindset that, like, this is just what you're supposed to do. When you've been together this long and you love each other and you say you're committed like that this is like the marker of success. Like, I don't want to have that rigid mindset. I want to be. Our love is bigger than that.

Unknown (29:03)

Did the act of moving in together bring you closer together?

Rachel (29:07)

Yeah, I would. I remember saying I was so much happier. Like, I didn't even expect how good it would be. Like, moving in together was a really.

Unknown (29:16)

Great time, but for how long?

Rachel (29:18)

I think problems started popping up around 18 months, and then, like, around two years. It started to be at a pace that was like, this doesn't feel good.

Unknown (29:29)

Well, I'd be willing to bet you thought it was a really great time because again, you took moving in as a benchmark that you needed, and then you got what you wanted. And it sounds like you both were probably generally interested in moving in together, which for me, other than getting engaged or married, is the only barometer that you're both equally excited could for. You know, thankfully, it sounds like you both were equally excited, but for you, it did more than it did for him, which was give you this security. And so then you, I'm guessing, chilled the out for a period of time. And that was the period in time that you guys really enjoyed. And then time had passed, and then your part of your subconscious brain said, this is no longer good enough. I need another benchmark, you know, because now that we've moved in together. And so immediately you started adding pressure to yourself and then subsequently him to meet this benchmark that he was like, I don't actually don't know for ready, because, in fact, things haven't gotten better, they've gotten worse.

Rachel (30:23)

That's so true. Yeah. The timelines has been like, the biggest fucking issue. And I think that's why it's all coming to a head now, because, like, the timeline that we were going to get engaged just, like, at this peak where it's so obviously not happening, and I'm just kind of having to, like, let go of this thing that I thought had to be there in order to be happy. And you're right. When we move, when we were moving in, I said multiple times. This, to me means that we're on the path to getting married.

Unknown (30:51)

Yeah. Let that shit go.

Rachel (30:52)

It's helpful to hear it from you. I get a lot of different opinions about this of, like, it's okay to have that be, you know, the thing that you want.

Unknown (31:01)

It is okay that be the thing that you want. But how you apply that, again, it's about what you do with that goal and how important that goal and what is that goal getting you? And again, especially when it comes to marriage, it's like, I mean, honestly, it's 2024, and I say this as someone who recently was married and. And so far, so great. And. And our wedding was a real magical day and really glad we did it and. And made the money. But at the end of the day, it's also kind of a symbolic thing and nothing more.

Rachel (31:32)

You know, that's what our therapist says. It's just a symbol. You have to focus on having the real thing underneath it.

Unknown (31:39)

Yeah.

Rachel (31:39)

Which is the commitment and a lot.

Unknown (31:40)

Of miserable married people out there. Do you want to be married and miserable?

Rachel (31:43)

No, it's. The irony is that my parents are married and miserable, and I don't know why I'm trying so hard to.

Unknown (31:50)

Can you let that stuck to someone? Well, can you let it go? I mean, why. You know, like, I want to.

Rachel (31:55)

I want.

Unknown (31:56)

Yeah, if you want to, then you can. And the. Then the. And the disconnect is you saying you want to, but actually not choosing to.

Rachel (32:02)

Right. I. Making a concerted effort to choose to. Every day. I think I have some deep down fear that maybe I'm broken or something and can't do it. But, like, I want.

Unknown (32:13)

Yeah, you're not broke. Hearing it from you, you got some damage, you know, you got some shit you got to work through. Whatever. You got some abandonment issues. I'm guessing you got some action attachment styles. I'm guessing, you know, like, again, that's something you can. When you're feeling anxious or disconnected. You could talk to Your therapist, you can talk to your partner, but it's a lot easier to have a. A feeling about whatever your partner and, and to be able to go to your partner and just, hey, I'm feeling disconnected. Can we whatever. Connect with everything that you guys are working on right now is so loaded because it's just like, he's just, you know, it's all about the end game. About, like, you're just like, well, if I do or say something wrong, he's not going to propose to me. And he's just like, oh, it's just like, I mean, you know, it's just like, like, you can't. You guys haven't really focused on your guys's connection. I'm guessing in a while it's this more. And again, when he says, when he says things like, I've made like, sacrifices and whatever, and I want some acknowledgment like work. Sure. You know, it's just like, hey, I've had, you know, maybe he's made some. Maybe he's donated his time or whatever. And maybe he wants a little acknowledgment for, you know, but like, his relationship. Like, you don't bring in this immediate burden that he has to like, choose to deal with. Like, it's, you know, you are again, you are. It's. It's more about you creating problems that aren't existing.

Rachel (33:33)

Right. Yeah. Been making myself crazy and as opposed. And as a result, how.

Unknown (33:39)

How often do you have to apologize to him for how you speak to him?

Rachel (33:43)

I think on a.

Unknown (33:44)

Or how like passive aggressive issues. Are you passive aggressive?

Rachel (33:48)

Yeah, happens like weekly lately. So probably somewhere in there is like a tone thing.

Unknown (33:54)

Yeah, that's a lot.

Rachel (33:56)

It's a lot.

Unknown (33:57)

Yeah, it's.

Rachel (33:57)

Yeah, it's not sustainable. Like, we're very aware of that. That's why I, I'm. I think I'm finally at this point of like, I'm desperate to change it. And that maybe is. What is. That is the thing that's gonna get me to change this mindset is like, I'm on the verge of losing him and I don't want that. Like, I, I feel that he's the person I'm supposed to be with.

Unknown (34:17)

Okay. Well.

Rachel (34:18)

That I want, you know, deeply want to be with.

Unknown (34:20)

You have to get to a place where you let go of the idea of marriage. Not for him, but for yourself.

Rachel (34:26)

Yes.

Unknown (34:27)

Yeah.

Unknown (34:27)

You know, yeah. It's just like, I, you know, you have to tell yourself, of course I'd love to get married and I would love to be able to cultivate a relationship with a person that we both feel ready to get married. Just like I'm. It sounds like. When you moved in together, how did you. What, what made you guys move in together?

Rachel (34:45)

We were excited. We wanted to.

Unknown (34:47)

Right. There you go. Right. That's all it really takes. People often, you know, just like, Just like getting engaged or getting married when moving in nowadays has become this, like, artificial benchmark where it's just like, well, we've been together for a year and our leases are up. I think we should move in together.

Rachel (35:01)

Yeah.

Allie (35:01)

No.

Unknown (35:01)

And then oftentimes someone's like, well, you know, are you sure we're ready? And the other person starts negotiating. It's like, well, you know, I think if we just look at it, I mean, we would save money and it's just like, yeah, but, like, are you sure we're ready? It's like, but we would save. And then like someone. Then it starts conceding. It's just like, that's never good. But just like, when you guys moved in together, you were both excited and happy to do it. And again, that's why for a period of time, it was a really great moment because you allowed you to just enjoy the moment. But as soon as it wasn't good enough and you needed another benchmark, you started introducing problems that weren't there.

Rachel (35:37)

That is so spot on.

Unknown (35:39)

And if your partner is having a job where he's stressed out a lot and why don't you focus on how. On being the person he can turn to when he's stressed? You know, what's his love language?

Rachel (35:54)

Physical touch? Words of affirmation. I mean, quality time, too.

Unknown (36:00)

Okay, well, words of affirmation. When was the last time you told him you were proud of them?

Rachel (36:05)

I. I do tell them. I'm proud of them. Yeah, work has been tough, and I, I definitely say that.

Unknown (36:10)

Okay.

Rachel (36:10)

I think what's. Also, I mean, we probably just even made it through this year because the swings of, like, you know, there's these really shitty moments, and then like, something stabilizes during the week and I'm like, I'm. I'm. I don't act so crazy.

Unknown (36:25)

So, I mean, can you, can you work on that? I mean, because, yeah, the only thing you have going against you right now is like, if you come to him and say, hey, I don't want to get married anymore, it's going to come across as crazy because it's such a. Because it's such a.180.

Rachel (36:41)

I mean, I think I can say I'm. I'm working on releasing the attachment to this as, like, the measure of our relationship and my, you know, my. My worth.

Unknown (36:52)

Well, I mean, you could also say it like, listen, like you've said to me, I feel you pulling away, and I've been doing a lot of reflecting, and I. I understand. I. I really do. And, you know, we've had all these talks about marriage, but in these. In these past few days of feeling like I might be losing you, I'm really realizing that it's not the marriage that I need to make me happy. It's you. I need you in my life. However, we can be together. Ultimately, that's how I want to be with you. And I want to be with you because we make each other happy, not stress each other out. And for the role I've played and adding stress to our life, I'm sorry. And that's something I really am working on, and I need to work on that. I've realized that I've. I've created problems in our relationship that don't exist, and I appreciate that. Like, it must have felt like a really huge burden on you to, like, try to, like, acknowledge my frustrations, even though you weren't sure where these frustrations were coming from, or you didn't really know what to do with these frustrations because you're mad. He, you know, it's like his option was to dismiss your anger or play along with something that you're creating. You know, it's like a lose, lose.

Rachel (38:02)

How do I define full commitment and not feel that he's keeping me at arm's length? Like, if he doesn't want to get, you know, if he doesn't want to get married, you just.

Unknown (38:13)

Again, in that situation, when you think of this question, and we can dive into this question about security, but you way you ask the question is you're going back to marriage. How do I get the security I'm looking for if I'm not. If it's not about marriage?

Rachel (38:26)

No. How do I define full commitment in a way that take marriage out of it so that I don't feel that I'm being kept at arm's length by.

Unknown (38:35)

Not, you know, well, it's showing full commitment to me is showing up. I'm old enough and I guess have been around the block enough and have had enough of shitty things in my relationship life happen where you can call me a cynic comment, you call me a realist, but, like, I just don't take anything for Granted, when it comes to my romantic relationships, I'm married. I have a wife. I still don't take it for granted. I don't sit there and say things like, nothing could break us up. That's not true.

Rachel (39:03)

Yeah.

Unknown (39:04)

You know, I, I don't sit there and, and, and operate like, you know. Yeah. Like we're inseparable. We're. Nothing could break a million things could destroy my marriage.

Rachel (39:16)

Yeah.

Unknown (39:17)

You know, and I don't sit there and say that to my. To psych myself out, you know, to live in fear. I say that one, as a reminder to not take anything for granted. Two, to show up every day and put in the work required to, like, have a connection and then hold myself and if need be, at times, my partner, if I feel like, you know, we're disconnecting and it's just like, hey, just checking in type of thing, and she, you know, has to do the same, you know, but for me then, that, that, that acknowledgement of anything, like, there's no guarantees again, like, I can only control 100% of my half of my relationship with my wife.

Rachel (39:56)

Yep.

Unknown (39:56)

That's all I can do. I can't make her do her half. But I don't sit there and feel less connected to her because there's a possibility she might not show up one day, you know, and listen, like, whether it's like, stresses of her life, being a mom, her body changing, her personal goals and ambition, she has a lot of other things she's going to worry about and stress out about. That might make us feel disconnected at times, but at the end of the day, it's just about showing up and choosing each other and saying, hey, I love you. I'm here for you. I'm grateful that I have you in my life. You're the best part of my day today. You know, like, I really had a stressful day. I was really glad to come home to you because, like, you, you created an environment of sanctuary. And not like, I got to go home and deal with my girl, who's probably going to give me about something and then ultimately bring it back to, like, why I'm not asking her to propose to me, because that's the environment you've created now. And now you're. Now your partner has no sanctuary. Work is this work. It's work. Right? And now he comes home and he's got to work on that. Right. And he's kind of like, you know, and like, where's, where's his sanctuary? You know what I'm saying? Like, And I would, for you, I would want you to focus your energy on creating a sanctuary with your partner. It used to be your home. It used to be that simple because you move in together, and you guys were excited, but you got to get back to that place where your. Your. Your relationship is a sanctuary for the both of you. And you have to be open to the possibility that. No, there's no. You know, if you want to be in a romantic relationship, you have to assume the risk that comes with it, and that's heartbreak. And in. And that can happen from both of you checking out. It can happen from life or. Or, you know, health problems or who know. You know what I'm saying? Like, disappointment is around the corner for all of us. You know, death happens to us all. And so it's. You don't. Don't sit there and. And have anxiety and worry about the future. You got to be present and appreciate the moment. Comes down to that.

Rachel (41:41)

Yeah, that was very. That was a good reality check. And I hate that I have created that.

Unknown (41:47)

Well, don't beat yourself up over it. You know, like, today's a new day, you know, and so you can always start. You can always start anew.

Rachel (41:55)

Yeah. Break down for breakthrough, he said. Yeah, that's my hope.

Unknown (42:00)

But remember, you can control your thoughts. And if you need to say out loud things like, marriage isn't the answer that I'm looking for, then say it out loud. Remind yourself what makes you happy. And, like, I just want a partner who shows up for me every day. That's all I. That's all I want. Right. And I want to make it easy for my partner to show up for me. I'm going to show up for him, you know, and you make it about showing up for each other and not about making. I'm gonna. I'm gonna be a good wife so I get the ring. Well, you know, right. Because you want. You want it to be like, one day, you want to just have him be like, I should marry this woman. And you should honestly be like, yeah, you should honestly not care that much. It should be like, okay, well, if you really want to, then I'd be happy to be your fiance. But, like, like, sure, you know, because at the end of the day, I'm happy we have each other.

Rachel (42:54)

Yeah. Needed to hear that.

Unknown (42:56)

All right.

Rachel (42:57)

I really hope you can stick around so I can do that with him.

Unknown (43:04)

Empathize with her. He's at.

Unknown (43:05)

Okay.

Unknown (43:06)

I mean. I mean, spend the time at your friends, but, like, at the end of the day, this is about, like, recognizing that, like, you've lost the plot when it comes to why you two should be in this relationship, and you've made it all about the end game, which is marriage. And you realize that was foolish and misguided, and you don't want that. And if he's still willing to show up in this relationship, you would like to go back to a place where, like, you know, unfortunately, I've made our relationship not the safe space I want it to be. And that's what I want to focus on, and I want to work towards that, you know, and that's more obtainable than just, you know, saying, I'm going to be this person, because it is going to take some work. But you have. He has, you know, totally. You have to want to do it together.

Rachel (43:42)

Yeah.

Unknown (43:42)

And just acknowledge, you know that. Because it sounds like your willingness to acknowledge. Like, what was the thing you said you acknowledge, and you really appreciated it.

Rachel (43:51)

Oh, that I'd been mothering him.

Unknown (43:52)

Yeah. Right. So, like. Yeah. And you got a real, you know, so, like, he just, like, you want to be seen. He wants to be seen, too. And he, you know, he wants a partner, not a mom. He wants a sanctuary, not another job or a problem. He doesn't want something he needs to work on at home. I mean, that's relative, you know, we'll all have to do that, you know, to a certain extent, but, like, like, you know, make it easy and fun. Get back to your roots.

Rachel (44:17)

Yeah, I want that.

Unknown (44:18)

Okay. All right.

Rachel (44:19)

Thank you. So grateful for your time.

Unknown (44:22)

Well, I appreciate the call. Please keep us posted how things progress. Feel free to call back. And if he wants to call in with you, I'll do that. If he's down.

Rachel (44:30)

Yeah, he's very. He's open to that kind of thing. Yeah. Let's. Hopefully we stay together and then we can do that.

Unknown (44:38)

Well, either way, just give it a beat. It sound like. Yeah, I'm. I'm still optimistic for you, too.

Rachel (44:46)

Yeah. But I'm guessing me yesterday that, like, something about relationship is about rupture and repair. We're in a season of repair.

Unknown (44:54)

Yeah.

Rachel (44:54)

His energy has shifted, but that at least is heartening.

Unknown (44:58)

Well, his energy is shifted because he just. He's just probably exhausted. He's given up exhausted. You got to give him some hope. Right. So give him hope in the moment of showing him through your. How you communicate that you. You actually understand as opposed to. You're just saying it to get your way.

Rachel (45:16)

Yeah, I've been saying. I've been doing some stuff to try and get my way and yeah, it is time to actually surrender to letting there be uncertainty.

Unknown (45:25)

And yeah. And I think your big epiphany is realizing that it wasn't moving in that.

Rachel (45:31)

Made that's a big epiphany.

Unknown (45:32)

That made things. Yeah. It was checking off the next step.

Rachel (45:37)

In the relationship escalator.

Unknown (45:39)

Well, for you it was freeing up the burden of having to worry about the next step. And for whatever period of time you felt like moving in, did that that allowed you just to enjoy each other and then you stopped enjoying him and then you gave him an assignment.

Rachel (45:53)

Well, yeah.

Unknown (45:57)

Well, I bet if you say it like that to him, it will resonate.

Rachel (46:00)

All right, thank you.

Unknown (46:01)

Good luck. Keep us posted.

Rachel (46:03)

All right, bye.

Unknown (46:04)

Bye. Bye.

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Unknown (48:34)

Hi, I'm Samantha. I'm 38 and the father of my children keep disrespecting my boundaries and it's taking a toll on my marriage.

Unknown (48:41)

Okay, what boundaries is he disrespecting?

Unknown (48:44)

Pretty much everything that I try to set in place when it comes to our children. A little background. My children are grown now. I have a 18 year old who's soon to be 19. Okay, who's soon to be 18. Whenever I ask or try to give guidance on how, you know, we want to do situations with the kids, it's always like, well, whatever, we'll do what you want to do. And then it turns around and he plays the guilt trip on my kids and they are upset, which in turn makes me upset. The co parenting just has never really been co parenting for the last 17 years.

Unknown (49:20)

Well, the good news is you're almost done co parenting. So there's that.

Unknown (49:23)

Well, that's what I like to think, but at the same time I feel like it hasn't changed and it's not going to change.

Unknown (49:28)

Well, that's entirely up to you.

Unknown (49:31)

And that's really what my question is. Is there a way of me walking away and keeping my kids as priority without having conversations or dealing with their father at all. I feel like I constantly have to be the middleman for everything.

Unknown (49:45)

What do you mean? Say more.

Unknown (49:47)

So, for instance, just last night we had a banquet for my son's football and I asked him, hey, did your dad rsvp? There's only two seats allowed per person, so if he's not going to make it, I would like to take my husband. Of course, because he wants to be a part of things as well. He says, I don't know, you know, you have to reach out to my dad. Because I have. He hasn't said anything. So I turn around and I reach out to his dad and he's like, oh, can you send me in the information? Of course I want to go. So I sent him the information. He's included on all the emails as well. But you know, he kind of needs that handholding and that's what it's been for the last last 18 years. So I feel like if I were to totally remove myself from the situation and put it back on the children to make sure that they are letting their dad know of everything so they're not upset that he doesn't show up, then things get missed and their feelings end up getting hurt rather than me just playing the middleman and taking the brunt of whatever it is that I have to take.

Unknown (50:45)

What do you mean by that last part?

Unknown (50:47)

So again, like I said, it's taken a toll on my marriage because my husband does not like him at all. You know, he's not been a very good co parent at all.

Unknown (50:56)

How long you been married for to your husband?

Unknown (50:59)

Almost six years.

Unknown (51:00)

Okay.

Unknown (51:01)

Been together for eight. So he thinks I enable the behavior and gets upset because I am so involved and I really try not to be. I really take myself out as much as I can and then I get upset because they're not being done.

Unknown (51:17)

Give me an example from the perspective of your husband of how he might, if he were on this call and I were to say, how is your wife enabling this behavior and what would you like to see her do differently? How do you think he would answer that?

Unknown (51:31)

I don't know if I can answer for him. I can just tell you his frustrations that he voices to me is me being the middleman, you know, me constantly saying, hey, just a reminder, you know, the kids have appointments at this, you know, or they have this coming up for school activities or whatever the case may be when it's kid related and you do that why I do.

Unknown (51:50)

Why do you do that?

Unknown (51:51)

Because I feel like at the end of the day he's not going to follow through on his end if I don't be the person to remind him that things are coming up and happening.

Unknown (52:01)

And what do you think your kids think?

Unknown (52:03)

Well, I know that they feel a certain way about how he is lacking in a lot of aspects when it comes to being a father. You know, there was a recent situation over the holiday where they made the effort to go all the way to his family's house in. It was about an hour away. We were where we were having our dinner and he stayed there for a little bit and said, I'm going out. You know, guilt tricked them the whole time about them coming to the visit. They made the visit, they made the drive, they did. And he left them within about an hour or so of being there to go out with his friends. And they came home late at night, you know, after leaving their family's house an hour plus away. And we're upset, you know, like we made all this effort and he just leaves. Like this is what he always does to us. And so they voiced their frustration with me and me being the mama bear that I am. I wanted to text him that night and be furious, but my husband right then there said, do not dare. Don't you dare do it. So I stopped and I didn't. But the next day, you know, as, as I was talking with the kids, I was like, did your dad ever reach out to you? You know, what's going on? Are you guys gonna go visit him this, you know, today? And they' well, he hasn't called us, whatever, you know, Then within an hour he calls them and says, hey, you guys coming over? Because my daughter had flew in for the holiday. So they jumped up and they left because dad called. And from that, that just made me mad because it's like he expects them to jump up and go and do whenever he asks, when it's convenient. And when they do, they get, you know, for lack of better words, shit under the stick.

Unknown (53:38)

Okay, well, the good news is, from what I'm hearing, your problems are completely fixable. I think your husband's right. Listen, and I, I wanna, I wanna. And Justin. Chime in if you want. Justin is a product of a divorced family. I am not. And I don't have 17 and 9, 18 year old kids. So take my advice with a grain of salt. That being said, I feel, I feel confident about this. For example, I think, listen, be appreciative of the fact that your kids are now all adults essentially. Right. One is literally adult, the other one's going to be adult. Like whatever job you and your, their biological father and, and your husband has done his parents, like, it's done, it's kind of done at this point. Right, right. Yeah, You've, how you've raised. Sure. I mean, listen, you'll always be there for them. Right? But they are adults. Right. And I, you know, listen, I'm not telling you how to be a parent, but I, I hope that as your kids enter their adult life, you give them an opportunity to be adults. And your relationship, I hope, evolves where it's less of you telling them what to do and offering them guidance when they ask for it, you know?

Unknown (54:45)

Right.

Unknown (54:45)

And I think if you do that with your kids, you will continue to build that relationship with your kids. I guess my point of asking you what your kids think is like, your kids are old enough, your kids are smart, they have opinions about who their father is and who their father isn't. At this point, you don't need to protect them, I guess in a way anymore. And your ex husband is no longer your husband. It's not your job to tell him what to do anymore. Anymore. He's, he probably won't even listen, you know what I'm saying? And like you really can't protect your kids anymore the way maybe you thought you could when they were 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 years old, you know what I'm saying? Like, even if your daughter flies into town to see dad, he's, it's not going to stop him to go out for a bar and listen, your kids are gonna, they're not jumping just because dad says when is like despite their father's flaw as a father, your kids still have a desire to have a relationship with their dad despite their dad not being the best dad. Right. So, yeah. And at the end of the day, I think there, my, my guess is your two kids know who's been there when they needed them the most. And I'm guessing it's you. Right? So like this is about like winning between you and your ex husband. You've already won. Right. And so you know what I'm saying? It's just like you don't need to fight their battles. Give your kids the opportunity to fight their own battles, support them in their fights if they ask for your help. Help. But you know what I'm saying, like, but you picking a fight with your ex husband just to let him know once again how wrong he is. So that he can ignore you and then you can be stressed out and then bring that stress into your current marriage isn't doing you any good, right?

Unknown (56:19)

I just. I feel like I built a codependency, and I'm trying to break away from that to where he. Because he does, you know, like, I need this information. I need this information. I have tried to stop the communication as of recent, where I was just like, don't.

Unknown (56:32)

I don't.

Unknown (56:33)

After our big fight, I was like, I just want you to, like, lose my number. And what do your kids want?

Unknown (56:37)

Have you ever asked your kids, who are A1 is adult ones on the verge, how would your kids want you to operate as it relates to their. Relate your relationship with their father? And how would they, like, how would they like you to handle, for example, the football event? You know, have you. Have you sat down with your son and been like, how would you. How would you. Like, how can I support you? You. Because at the end of the day, I'm guessing you're telling yourself, well, listen, I just want my son to be happy. And I'm assuming he wants his father there, but if his father doesn't want to be there or can't be there, his stepdad would like to come and support. Right? But at the end of the day, did you ask your son?

Unknown (57:12)

Well, yeah, I said, do you want your dad to go? And he said, of course. And I'm like, okay, that's not a problem. Okay, I'll send him the information.

Unknown (57:18)

Well, I think the next step is to empower your son to. If he wants his dad to go, then it's his job to let his dad know he wants to go. Go.

Unknown (57:25)

Right? And I think that's where I really drop the ball a lot. I do play mama bear a lot. I want to make sure that they have what they need. And like, okay, I'll do this for you.

Unknown (57:35)

So they're adults at this point. They're not 16 or 15. And like, listen, teach men to fish. You know what I'm saying? Like, your kids aren't going to always have Mama Bear there to, like, do basic things. Like, this is. This is a basic thing. This is communicating a. A calendar event to their father. Father, it's not your job anymore. You're not married to this man. If they want a relationship with their dad, it's now on there. It's. It's on them to do that. Obviously, it's his job as a father to have that relationship. But like your kids, at this point are old enough to decide what kind of relationship they want with their father and what amount of energy they're willing to put into it. Obviously, they can only do 100 of their half when it comes to their relationship with their father, and hopefully their dad steps up. But there's nothing you can do to protect them or to make up for whatever he's not doing on his end.

Unknown (58:25)

Right.

Unknown (58:25)

All you can do is to continue to be the mom that you are and show up 100 on your end and support them. But like you, you can't protect them in. In the ways that I think you're trying to protect them. And you're. And honestly, I think you trying to do things that they should be doing now at this stage of your life is, you know, hurting them. You know, because they have to do this on their own. They have to. They have to grow up. They have to be able to face adversity. They have to have. They have to be able to face confrontation. You know, I mean, I talked to. Every day, I talk to people who'll be like, I'm afraid of confrontation. Part of the reason people are afraid of confrontation is they've never had to face confrontation as young adults or young kids. And listen, everything is practiced makes perfect. So, like, you know, the more you get used to having confrontation, less you're afraid of it, you know, so. So maybe this is an opportunity that.

Unknown (59:14)

Makes sense, I guess. I mean, I feel like we still have some ties. I know they're adults. My daughter, like I said, she's off to college in another state, and we had agreed that we would pay the remaining portion of her tuition because it was only partially funded. And again, that financial burden falls on me because he can't afford to make the payment this month or that month or whatever the case is. So how do I navigate those types of issues that are obviously not emotionally related to the children? Again, this is where me and my husband have an issue, because he's. He wants. And I'm sure you agree with him. He wants my daughter to. To put the rest of that bill because this was her choice of going to that college. I don't agree. I.

Unknown (59:55)

Can she afford it?

Unknown (59:56)

Can we afford it?

Unknown (59:57)

Can she afford it?

Unknown (59:59)

She doesn't have a job. She could take out a student loan, but I really don't want her to. You know, can you guys come out of school with that? We can. It's not the easiest payment. Our half we can make, but the other half, you know, it's like something like we have to like, go out. Go, you know, eating out for the week. You know, like, can we do that? Yeah. Because we spend, you know, two, three hundred dollars for six of us to go out to eat. I have a lot of kids, so.

Unknown (60:24)

I mean, listen, that one's a little bit more of a complicated question. I mean, like, I don't know if I'm. It's, you know, I guess I have an opinion. I don't know how important my opinion is. All I can say is I empathize why you as a mother are more prone to want to cover that end so that your daughter can focus on school and not have to take out a loan and inquire debt at an early age. I can appreciate why your. Your husband has a sl. More disconnected point of view. And that's something you guys gonna have to work together, you and your husband. But back to your ex husband. It's just like, what you guys need to do is stop commiserating over someone you can't control. I don't know if I'm using the word commiserating right, but, like, you know what I'm saying? It's like your ex husband does some. That frustrates you guys, and then you guys will argue over why your ex husband does what he does. It's like, what's the point of that?

Unknown (61:10)

Yeah, no, we do. And I, we. I try not to because most of the time we agree on the principle. But at the end of the day, I feel like if it's impacting the children, then I'm gonna just take the heat of it and deal with it and do it myself.

Unknown (61:26)

Because, I mean, listen, I. I don't know what. I think that's a generalization. But like, some. Your kids need to face adversity and they need to learn how to overcome it. I mean, within limits and you can be there, but like, you know, know, let your kid swim out to the deep end, so to speak, while you are, quote unquote, playing lifeguard in their life. You know, you're close enough to be able to dive in the pool if they really need your help. And they can't get to the. Metaphorically speaking. But like, let's see if they can make it, you know, let's see if they can figure it out. Your daughter will appreciate school if she's paying for it. I promise you that, you know?

Unknown (62:03)

Yes, I know. I totally agree with that.

Unknown (62:05)

I. I had to work jobs in college, you know, I had to work a lot of jobs in college, and I competed in sports. Like, if she really wants it, she'll make it work. And if she really can't do it, if she really isn't capable of doing it, maybe that's when you two can step in and save the day. But it seems if I'm talking to you, you're very quick to like, try to address a problem to avoid even your children experiencing the problem to begin with. You're trying to protect them from, remember, even having any difficulty or inconvenience or things like that. And while, again, it's a parenting choice, I'm not telling you what to do. I personally think that, like, you have to allow your kids to face some kind of adversity so they can learn how to overcome adversity because their life will be filled with it and mom won't always be able to be there.

Unknown (62:51)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's just definitely growing up different. You know, obviously they have a lot more for them. I provide a lot more than, you know, what I was provided as a child. So I think it's kind of that thought of, like, why want to give my kids what I never had? So it's definitely internal battle.

Unknown (63:09)

You already have, I'm guessing, you know, haven't you? Yeah, I'm guessing their eight first 18 years of life are much different than yours.

Unknown (63:16)

Oh, yes.

Unknown (63:17)

There you go.

Unknown (63:18)

So not, not all at first, you know, it took a long time to get to where we're at today, you know, but they definitely, for the last eight years, you know, we've been definitely providing a lot of a more of a stability than.

Unknown (63:30)

That's awesome. But you should be very proud of that and you should reflect on that and really feel a sense of pride and accomplishment from what you've been to do and, you know, especially having to deal with like a deadbeat dad or whatever. And. But now, now that your kids are adults now, it's. It's on you to try to change your approach a little bit and adjust because like I said, you know, they're adults now. The more you can prepare them for adult life, the more, you know, you will, you will help them out. There's way too many mid 20 year olds who don't know how to be adults out there.

Unknown (64:06)

I know, I definitely feel like I'm contributing that.

Unknown (64:09)

I'm just saying, you know, like, you know, what your son, how old's your son?

Unknown (64:15)

He's 17.

Unknown (64:16)

Do you not want your son to turn 24 and have his girlfriend being like, are you an adult? You know, why are you immature for your age? You Know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, and babying him isn't gonna get him to grow up.

Unknown (64:28)

Now you sound like my husband.

Unknown (64:30)

Well, you know, it's not because it's hard. You know, it's not because we agree. It's because I think there's some truth behind it. But I think a big takeaway when regards to your husband is asking your kids what they would like you to. How can you support them when it comes to their relationship with their father. And outside of that, you mind your business.

Unknown (64:51)

Yeah, yeah, I. I don't involve myself in his life or what's going on. Just things that impact the kids just really, like, stir me up.

Unknown (65:00)

Well, that's that last part. That last part is your excuse. Like you. In your head, your narrative is, I mind my business. I don't stick my nose where it doesn't belong unless my kids are upset, so. But anytime your kids are upset, you use that excuse to not mind your business again. If your kids are upset, you go to your kids and say, how can I support you? And often your. The kids answers might be, I don't need nothing, Mom. I'm good. You can't change dad, mom. You know, like, so it is who it is, and your kids know that already. Your kids are old enough to understand who their father is and who he isn't, and you're not going to change that. And babying them isn't going to make up for their dad's shortcomings.

Unknown (65:36)

Right? No, you're absolutely right.

Unknown (65:40)

So, yeah. So how can you support them? Like this thing, like, hey, do you want me. Like, who do you want to go, dad? Well, you're going to have to let dad know, just so you know, because I'm not going to. But if dad doesn't want to go, let me know because I want to bring Chuck, you know?

Unknown (65:55)

Right.

Unknown (65:56)

Yeah. So that's it. And then you check in with your son, not their father, their dad.

Unknown (66:03)

Yeah.

Unknown (66:04)

And if your son's upset, let him be upset. And then, you know, empathize with them. Yeah. I'm sorry your dad is the way he is. You know, blah, blah, blah. You know, I know it's not the same as your father, but Chuck, you know, we're really happy, we're really proud of you, whatever. You know, like, you can. You support your kids, you can do that. That without adding drama around their father.

Unknown (66:27)

Right.

Unknown (66:28)

You know, and letting their father's actions rile you up. Like this man, you know who he is. I mean, he has really. Has he changed since you've met him? Guessing no.

Unknown (66:38)

No.

Unknown (66:39)

Why are you expecting him to do things differently? Why are you allowing this man to rile you up?

Unknown (66:44)

That's a really good question. I think that's something that I definitely should have worked on myself. I really thought I had that all in check. But now that you pointed out. Yeah, you're right, I let it. When it comes to the kids, it's. It's no longer the emotional relationship between him and I. I've gone far past that. But when it comes to the kids, I think it just has all built up into just the kids.

Unknown (67:05)

Sure. But all you're doing now, I'm mad about this, but all you're doing is that it's affecting your mental health and your relationship with your husband. It's not helping your kids.

Unknown (67:13)

You're absolutely right. You are absolutely right.

Allie (67:15)

Right.

Unknown (67:16)

All right. Well, go forth and prosper and conquer.

Unknown (67:21)

Okay, Well, I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Unknown (67:23)

All right. My pleasure. Happy holidays.

Unknown (67:25)

Thanks.

Allie (67:26)

You too.

Unknown (67:26)

All right, take care. Bye. Bye.

Rachel (67:27)

Bye.

Unknown (67:28)

Bye.

Unknown (67:30)

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Allie (70:41)

Hi, I'm Allie. I'm 31 years old and I am wondering if I need to come out to my family as gay over the holidays.

Unknown (70:51)

Okay you you said the word need. Why need? Or as opposed to like should totally.

Allie (70:59)

I use the word need because I don't think I really want to but I'm feeling some pressure to do so.

Unknown (71:09)

Maybe by who? Or is it whom Who Whom I.

Allie (71:14)

Think just like, societal pressure, entering the dating pool. I'm not super newly out, but I am out to everyone recently because I just moved cities this summer.

Unknown (71:28)

Okay.

Allie (71:29)

And the place I was living before, it was, like, not super safe or accepted for me to be gay, so I couldn't be out publicly.

Unknown (71:38)

Okay.

Allie (71:39)

And so now that I'm, like, actively dating women, I feel like it comes up as a red flag if your family doesn't know. So that's. I guess that's the pressure I'm feeling.

Unknown (71:53)

Can you. I mean, forgive my ignorance. Can you educate me as. As why that's a red flag? Maybe. Justin, feel free to chime in.

Allie (71:59)

I. Ye. That's. That's a really great question. I feel like it's so niche and nuanced and something that I'm just kind of figuring out and discovering. But if you're on a date with someone and they ask, oh, is your family supportive? And you say they. They don't know that you're gay, it tends to get like, I would say 80% of the time, I've gotten, like, not a great reaction.

Unknown (72:26)

I can. I can appreciate just because it's like.

Allie (72:28)

Oh, are you not being authentic? Or like you're hiding or you're not proud or like, whatever. And it's like, truly everyone in my life knows that I'm gay. Aside from my family, for other reasons.

Unknown (72:40)

What are. What are those reasons?

Allie (72:42)

I grew up in, like, a very conservative, religious, oppressive type environment, and I am no longer religious. And I actually didn't even consider the fact that I might be gay until I left the church and. And kind of, like, unpacked some of that suppression. But my family is very much still in that environment. And I don't want to, like, say that I know what their reaction will be, but I can pretty confidently assume that they will pray for the salvation of my soul if I tell them I like girls. So that's kind of.

Unknown (73:23)

Are you certain?

Allie (73:24)

Not really sure if I want to do that.

Unknown (73:27)

You're certain of that?

Allie (73:28)

I feel.

Unknown (73:29)

Well, how many?

Allie (73:30)

Might be.

Unknown (73:31)

How many siblings do you have?

Allie (73:32)

I have one sibling, a brother.

Unknown (73:34)

Okay. Where does he fall in the religious spectrum?

Allie (73:38)

Very religious.

Unknown (73:39)

Do your parents know you're not religious?

Allie (73:42)

Like, I think if they looked at it with a critical eye, they could figure it out, but they've just kind of stopped asking because I think they don't want to know the answer. And, and so going back to your question, if I'm confident they would do that, I. Or like, not be accepting, I think 50, 50 they might be accepting on the surface, but I feel like 99 sure that my mom will then go to her church community and mourn the loss of her daughter's heterosexuality and it'll be like, like they're praying that I repent from this sin. And like they might not say it to my face. They also might say it to my face. But just like the thought of them like going and then praying for my salvation and my, just like my existence being sinful just like it just like irks me.

Unknown (74:39)

I get that. Yeah. Is there a way for you to get over you being irked?

Allie (74:46)

Totally. Maybe. I, I, I'm not like particularly close with my family. Like I've put a lot of distance because of the religious trauma. And, and so it's also like I, if I was dating men, I also wouldn't tell them about it.

Unknown (75:06)

Like if you were like just let, let's say for, I mean are you saying like, for example, if you were straight and you were just out there dating men and you were participating in hookup culture and having a bunch also be something you would be reluctant to share and communicate with mom and dad for fear that they would also be worried about your soul for different reasons?

Allie (75:24)

Yeah.

Unknown (75:26)

Yeah. Well, one, I don't think you should tell mom and dad over the holidays. Okay. I mean, listen, you should tell them whenever you want. To be clear, as a, as a heterosexual man who you know, has no, I, I know what it's like to have siblings come out as gay in a very religious family. But unlike your parents. My parents have shown a willingness to become more open minded and progressive as their kids have been opening their minds over the years. And they're still religious, but they have definitely become less hardcore. So I'm very grateful and thankful for my parents and their willingness to do that. And so I think that's created a safe space for some of my siblings who have come out as gay.

Allie (76:03)

I, and the only reason I said the holidays is because it's my like one time of year that I see them.

Unknown (76:09)

No, I hear you.

Allie (76:10)

Yeah, so I didn't know if like.

Unknown (76:12)

In, I guess what I'm saying is just like. No, I don't, I mean, listen, it's not for me to say, but if you are asking my opinion, opinion. I don't know if you need to be in their presence so to, to let them know. I don't know like that. I think that's more of a, your, that's your choice, you know. And so if you want to be there to do it. Great. But I don't like. To me, this is your story. This is, this is all about you. So whatever you want to do, I think is great.

Justin (76:35)

Can I ask a couple questions?

Unknown (76:37)

Yes.

Justin (76:37)

I know you said you're not as close to your family. How often do you talk to them a year?

Allie (76:43)

Like in depth conversation. Every maybe two or three months.

Justin (76:49)

Okay.

Allie (76:49)

But like texting a couple times a week maybe, but like very surface level. Okay.

Unknown (76:55)

But they're still like, regular. You have a relationship with these people?

Allie (76:59)

Yes.

Justin (77:00)

Well, and the reason I was asking is you said everybody else in your life knows that you're out. Would you say that you've kind of have. You've had a chosen family that's replaced the role that they would have played?

Allie (77:11)

Yeah, absolutely.

Justin (77:12)

So then what I would think, like, as far as. As. And this is just me streamlining a little bit like the red flag conversation, because it is a tricky situation. Is that.

Unknown (77:21)

What do you mean by red flag conversation?

Justin (77:23)

Like, I understand, like what you use the word red flag, but like, when you're dating openly, like, it is a tricky path to go down when one partner is out and one partner isn't out.

Unknown (77:32)

Yeah.

Justin (77:33)

If people are asking you, are you out to your family? The way that I see it is if you're out to your chosen family, the people that are out actually matter to you, that have replaced that void of who is your family, then, like, there's a way to navigate that conversation. In that sense. The people that matter to me that I actually talk to, that actually know who I am. They do.

Allie (77:51)

Yeah.

Justin (77:52)

For context, just my own life. Not everybody in my life knows that I'm out. The people that matter to me do. My immediate family does. If people wanted to inquire, they could like, find out. I don't hide it. That being said, same thing. My partner side. Like, we don't fault each other for that because you don't owe anybody that truth, you know? So you're giving it to. You're giving it to the people, your chosen family that does matter. So in a sense, that is your family.

Unknown (78:17)

The only caveat I would add to that if, If I may, is so that you don't get like, caught up in a lie. And like your partner, like, feels like, well, that's just like semantics. Is it? You just say like, like you said to the people that matter. And you could say like, I haven't. You know, you could be specific. Like, I have not told my. My parents. Parents. But you could. There's A reason why they're hardcore religious and they seem to be unwilling to even hear that truth. So I haven't shared that truth. And that's just the relationship I have with my parents. But to your point, Justin, to the people who. To the people I consider my support system, my family, the people I love, the people who are actively in my life, everyone knows kind of thing. Right.

Allie (79:02)

Okay.

Unknown (79:02)

Yeah. So I think that's a worker.

Allie (79:04)

I think that's insightful.

Unknown (79:05)

Yeah. From a dating standpoint. Yeah. That's a good workaround. Thank you, Justin. Back to, like, when, when and if you should tell your parents. I. I say don't tell them over the holidays because it's like you're gonna make the holidays about.

Allie (79:16)

No, for sure.

Unknown (79:17)

And then that just gives mom and dad more ammunition to be mad. You want to set your parents up for success, so to speak.

Allie (79:24)

Right.

Unknown (79:25)

I don't know if they're going to choose to be successful in this. In this. But you do want to make it easy for them to be successful. That's my opinion. Other people listening might feel differently. They might be more adversarial. They might say it's not your job to make people comfortable, blah, blah, blah. But listen, these are your parents. And families are complicated and relationships are complicated. I'm going to share something that people may disagree with, and I'm sharing this as someone who, from the perspective of knowing what it's like to. Grew up in a very religious family, and now I also say this not being gay, and I say this not having to feel judged on the level that you feel judged by the religion you were raised in. So there's an element of privilege I have in that department. That being said, I sure know what it's like to have Catholic guilt and shame, regardless of the fact that I am straight in the sense that, like, premarital sex. A lot of choices I made at a young adult. Adult, according to, you know, my parents and my religion, I was very much going to be burning in hell along with you. You know what I'm saying? So, like, I still see you there. Yeah, yeah. Type of thing. My ability to navigate that was to simply, I think, where a lot of people struggle, where it's just like, you know, your religion tells me I don't belong, and therefore it's like you and your religion and blah, blah, blah. And all of a sudden, like, I have a big problem, for example, with society. Like, I think religion has its complications for sure. I think religion is completely flawed. And I think relig canon has been a very beautiful thing for a lot of people. Unfortunately, humans are flawed and you humans have a way of ruining everything, including religion. But nevertheless, like it has its benefits. I can still respect my Catholic faith that I grew up in. Many aspects of that religion I don't agree with. There's a lot of aspects of that religion I find to be disingenuous. And a lot of people abuse opposing aspects of that religion. There are things about that religion that contradict not only how I live my life, but how people I love live their lives, et cetera, et cetera. But it is a man made thing and it can be flawed. But it, you know, I, I don't sit there and, and for me personally, I don't need to condemn the entire religion or reject it as a whole.

Allie (81:41)

Sure.

Unknown (81:42)

Because of the fact that for example, like the Catholic religion says being gay is a sin, you know. Right. And I have a lot of gay family members who still are active in their church. But they, you know, it's the same reason if I, if I wanted to like I didn't stop going to church because I wanted to have meaningless sex. You know what I'm saying? It was for different reasons I stopped going. But when I was having meaningless sex, I was still going to church. Yeah. And I just for me, I had my own relationship with God, so to speak. And regardless of what was in the book or whatever, I carved out my own relationship. And you can do that too, I guess is all to say is that like I went in that whole like rant because you, I forget you said something that was kind of like you almost kind of resent your parents faith. Sure. As a relay. Because of how they judge they, they might judge you. This is about being happy, not about being right. Totally right. If you want to be right, then you can focus on the disconnect between your parents, religion and who you want to love. And you will be right. You know, because you have the right to love who you love. Right. If you want to be happy, happy. To me happy is having some kind of healthy relationship with mom and dad. Even those. Even though there potentially is a giant disconnect between how you live your life and how they want you to live your life. And to do that you have to empathize with them in a way that may not feel fair.

Allie (83:07)

So what do you think empathizing looks like then? If down the road I do choose.

Unknown (83:13)

Sure. There you go. Thank you. That actually was helpful. I was kind of getting lost in my rant. They don't Know better. Is it? Yeah, yeah. They don't know better. I'm imagining your parents are beliefs. Your brother's relief is centered around how he was raised by your parents. Your parents believes, I'm assuming is centered around how they were raised by their community and you know, generational brainwashing call it that. It's like they don't, they don't know better. They don't believe that, you know, whatever. If they choose to judge you, who you love, it's not getting, it's not coming from a place of not loving you. It's quite the opposite. Opposite. So you just, you don't allow yourself to get angry at them for something they have believed in their heart to be. Not like something, not like an opinion, but like scripture. You know what I'm saying?

Allie (84:02)

Like ultimate truth.

Unknown (84:03)

Yeah, ultimate truth. I mean like at the end of the day, you know, like there's a part of like, you know, when I was struggling with my faith type of thing. It's just like at the end of the day, I know I, I saw there's a quote in a movie, I think Norton played a Catholic priest. He was getting counseled from another pries and the priest said, I know two things in this world. One, that God exists and two, I'm not him. And that really resonated with me in the sense that you have all these people and humans and telling us like who's going to burn in hell and who's not and what's right, not wrong. We'll all find out someday.

Allie (84:35)

Yeah.

Unknown (84:36)

You know.

Allie (84:38)

Yeah.

Unknown (84:38)

Until then we can all agree to disagree and you can agree to disagree with your parents for sure without holding on to that resentment of them not accepting, accepting you. I think there's a lot, you know, and again, maybe I'm, I'm speaking from a place of privilege. I understand that. But I think you can accept your parents ignorance without holding on to that anger that they're ignorant.

Allie (85:00)

Yeah.

Unknown (85:01)

And I kind of choose to forgive them in a place where they're not type of thing. And, and, and then hope that they come around. Yeah.

Allie (85:08)

Yeah. And I, I do feel like like the younger me wanted to like cut them off off even prior to knowing I was gay just because I was so like hurt and like traumatized by the religion and by things that they'd done. And I do think I have come to approach it from a way similar to what you've said of like they're doing the best they can with the information that they have. And like we're all Doing this for the first time, and that has helped me to empathize. I think the thing that I'm struggling with is not necessarily resentment, but, like, how do I, like, absorb a hateful reaction from them?

Unknown (85:50)

Can you disconnect?

Allie (85:52)

Yeah, for sure. Remove myself from the convo.

Unknown (85:57)

Like, kind of.

Allie (85:58)

Would you say to them if they were like, we don't approve. You're going to hell, or we're like, so disappointed by this?

Unknown (86:05)

Well, the good news is you have, like, the lowest of expectations of how your parents are going to handle this. So like any. You know.

Allie (86:13)

So they can only surprise me.

Unknown (86:14)

Yeah, right. You know, worst case scenario. Scenario is they're going to do exactly what you think they're going to do for sure. And my guess is you'll just disconnect from them, you know, so, like, okay, let's just, like, you don't do it over Christmas, right? Whatever. And then maybe. Maybe. Happy New Year, Mom. I'm gay via text. I don't know. Honestly, it's as good as any, but. Yeah, I don't know. You would. You could. Again, I'm spitballing here. So, like, you know, I think you should do what it's in your heart to be clear, but I don't think you should convince yourself to do more than you think you need to do. I don't think you need to write them some long letter. I don't think you need to make some big thing. If it as simple as I'm gay. If that's what's. If that's the. If that's how you. If that's what you want to do, then I think you should do that. I think you should protect your piece. I think you should protect yourself. So, like, if that's giving them a call and. Or texting them to allow your parents to. To not be present when they have their initial reaction, to avoid seeing or hearing.

Allie (87:15)

Right.

Unknown (87:15)

Maybe you do that. Mom, dad, I'm gay. I know this may. This news may not receive you well.

Allie (87:24)

May not be thrilling.

Unknown (87:26)

Yeah. But I just want you to know, even though I know there's some distance between us, that, like, I truly love you is my parents. I'm truly grateful to have you in my life. And you raised me to be the woman that I am. And overall, I'm really proud of who I am as a person. I'm not expecting you to like it. I'm not even expecting you guys to be okay with it. I just hope that we can still have a relationship and I can still feel your love. I don't know, something like that. I'm just spitballing because isn't that all you really want? And then, like, if your mom wants, whatever your mom wants to do with her church, at her church. Yeah, let her do it. I don't know. And if your mom wants to get on the phone and guilt you, you just have to remain calm and say, mom, I understand where you're coming from, but I, I, you can't expect, sit on the phone and listen to you tell me why you think I'm gonna burn in hell. I, I, I, I don't agree with you. And that's okay, Mom. That is okay. But I do love you, you know, And I think you have to challenge yourself to finish every conversation with some kind of I love you. Because, like, I really think families, you don't get to pick your family, but you, you can still love them totally. Because you definitely don't have to like them, that's for sure. That's kind of what I think. Take, try to, try to take the pressure off. What do you think, Justin?

Justin (88:46)

Yeah, I think so. I'm curious if part of you is just wondering during the holidays if they're going to ask you about your dating life.

Allie (88:53)

I mean, they always do. And I'm, like, pretty used to deflecting. Like, even when I was dating men years ago, it was like, there was one reaction from my mom in my early 20s where I was like, they will not get to know that information again.

Unknown (89:07)

Again.

Allie (89:08)

And so, like, we're not really on the level where that would come out. The only scenario I could see it coming out is, like, in, and I say, like, fit of rage, like, kind of playfully, but, like, I could see myself getting, like, frustrated with, like, something they're saying, like badgering and then me putting it out there, like, almost like, spitefully. So I think I need to just be careful of that because I do want to set them up for success. And I think me not being there to see their reaction and, like, let them process in whatever way is definitely for the best.

Unknown (89:52)

Yeah. If it comes up during the holidays, given the fact that there was an incident in the past, you could just say, hey, Mom, I think we both know you don't want to know.

Unknown (90:02)

Maybe not that one.

Allie (90:04)

It's a good line for sure.

Unknown (90:07)

You know, I, I just, Yeah. I mean, I don't know your parents, I don't know how hardcore they are, but, like, maybe you just kind of, you know, fight it with humor or whatever. Let's try to diffuse the situation. I think sometimes, I mean, I do it. You know, it's like, we want to be right. This is. Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

Allie (90:22)

Absolutely. Yeah.

Unknown (90:23)

You know, it really isn't, to come down to that. I really.

Allie (90:26)

I think I, like, write that somewhere, tuck it away, and, like, look at it when I feel my blood pressure rising.

Unknown (90:32)

I really think in a lot of cases, happiness is a choice, you know, Totally. And sometimes we don't want to be happy. Sometimes we want to be chaotic. Sometimes we want to be dramatic. Sometimes we want to be a lot of things that don't include happiness. And I think we can often choose to. You know, happiness comes from peace and tranquility and prioritizing things that matter us most. We often don't do these things. You know, sometimes we often expect to be happy. Happy while thinking we can do whatever the fuck we want.

Allie (91:01)

Yeah. Yeah.

Unknown (91:03)

And that's not true.

Allie (91:05)

Yeah, that makes sense. And then, like, as far as if I don't feel like I want to broach this topic with them in the near or immediate future, you don't think that that's something that feels like a red flag? I think dating is the biggest thing that it's come up in. Everyone in my life has been, like, so supportive of me and, like, I feel, like, celebrated everything, but I'm. I. Yeah, I just. I don't know. I don't want to, like, tell them because I feel like I have to.

Unknown (91:39)

Well, again, I think this comes down to a generalization about, like, when you're dating and. And, you know, gay relationship or a heterosexual relationship. Like, you know, we're always looking for potential red flags. And a potential red flag doesn't mean that you're not dateable, so to speak. Right. I think right now you're having confusion about whether you should or shouldn't tell mom and dad. And then when you get challenged on dates, it causes you to feel more insecure and project that insecurity. And that confusion about what you should do with mom and dad is probably the bigger red flag for anyone who actually is considering whether you are a healthy person to date or not. Like, I can't account count for the judgmental people who, you know, maybe are projecting their own parental issues onto you and demanding you tell them. Because I don't. I don't know. You know what I'm saying?

Allie (92:36)

Like, yeah, yeah.

Unknown (92:37)

That's not who I'm talking about. So I think this is more about you being at peace with whatever decision you've made. Regarding your parents. And you can always change that decision over time, but it's more being firm in whatever decision you make. So if, if you decide for yourself that for whatever reason, now's not the right time because it's just like, you know, listen, I'm pretty confident how they're gonna handle it right now. I think my relationship with my parents is honestly like kind of good and I'm content with it and I don't need them to know, to feel their love and whatever. But the people who are in my life, my family, my, my day to day family, they know. And when I, if I meet someone I wanna date, they're going to be able to meet the people I love and engage with and feel like they've met my family. There's coming from a religious family and there's coming from conservative families and then there's coming from like your family, you know, like hardcore devout people that you're describing.

Justin (93:33)

Can I offer some more perspective? I think instead of thinking you're a red flag, a healthy way, and this is easier said than done, to think about it is like, while dating people, what circles are you going to bring your future partner into? Because like the last thing you would want to do, and I'm not saying you're going to do this, is bring your partner into a room where you're gonna say, this is my friend, you know, but it's like if you're never gonna be bringing that partner around those people, then like that's, that's an honest conversation you can have with your partner and like they'll learn to accept it for what it is.

Unknown (94:01)

Yeah, totally.

Allie (94:02)

No, I think you're so right. I think there's definitely some projection of confusion or insecurity there.

Unknown (94:09)

There's gonna be a lot of reasons when you go out there and date there that someone might reject you. And if someone wants to reject you because they've decided they need to meet someone who's gonna introduce them to their biological par, I guess. But like, maybe they're not your person because that person seems to also like have some like rigid non negotiables that shouldn't be non negotiables, but they decided they're non negotiables because maybe they have their own shit going on and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We're so afraid of rejection that we refuse to see rejection as a little bit of clarity and it allows people to make decisions for us because like them rejecting you for some random ass shit. Is this you not having to date them for six months before you found out the thing that you would not. Not want to have to deal with.

Allie (94:52)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, I think that's really helpful. Thank you.

Unknown (94:56)

All right, well, was that helpful?

Allie (94:59)

No, it was. It definitely was. I feel like. I definitely feel lighter. I think I'm gonna just go to the Midwest for Christmas and just do the thing and then process whether or not it's something that I want to do. And I feel like I have control and, like, agency over that decision whether rather than feeling pressured. So that feels good. And yeah, I really appreciate the advice.

Unknown (95:26)

Great. Yeah. Don't. Yeah, try to remove the pressure. Try to. Try to control the situation. And as long as you're happy, that's all that matters and you're content with who you are, that's all that matters. And yeah.

Allie (95:39)

Yeah, definitely. I'm the happiest I've ever been, so I. Yeah, I feel. I feel grateful for that.

Unknown (95:43)

We love that.

Justin (95:44)

You're also not a red flag, so thank you.

Allie (95:47)

I really appreciate that too.

Justin (95:48)

You can throw that away.

Allie (95:49)

The, like, family bit, like, feels like the biggest red flag sometimes in the queer community, and so I, I can appreciate that.

Unknown (95:58)

And I would imagine. I would imagine in the queer community that, like, coming out, obviously, is a huge moment in someone's life. So I imagine there's a lot of sensitivity and strong opinions about that. But I think the important thing to remember is that everyone's situation is different. And just because they have a strong opinion about their experience, it doesn't necessarily apply to your experience. And I think you have to be mindful of that so that you don't allow the people you do date who do have their own trauma and their own intense experience, to project that onto you and make you feel like you're doing something wrong when you're not.

Allie (96:34)

Absolutely. No, that's. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

Unknown (96:38)

All right, well, if. And when you do come out. Yes, we would love it. An update. Okay.

Allie (96:43)

Yeah, I will let you know. I'll let you know if I get bible thumped or not.

Unknown (96:48)

Yeah, I'm sure you will. I will. I. I really think this. I have a strong opinion about this. With parents, when. When you show them that they can't get through, they stop trying.

Allie (97:02)

Okay.

Unknown (97:03)

You know, like, parents will keep trying. If they. If they think they have an impact or hope in your life, eventually they'll just.

Allie (97:10)

Yeah. Now there's obviously truth.

Unknown (97:12)

Exceptions rule and, And, And. And hopefully your parents handling isn't to cut you off because, you know, the, you know, there's that, that's, there's that possibility. But if you're trying to avoid mom Bible thumping you or whatever you want to call it, shut it down immediately. Don't give it oxygen. Respectfully decline to hear your mom.

Allie (97:32)

Yes.

Unknown (97:33)

And give her, give her the playbook of how to have a relationship with you and see if she's willing to accept that boundary.

Allie (97:39)

Okay. Okay, definitely.

Unknown (97:41)

And, and then, as always, lead with love.

Allie (97:43)

Yeah, totally. I'll do that.

Unknown (97:45)

Okay. Because. Yeah. They don't know better.

Allie (97:47)

Yeah.

Unknown (97:48)

All right.

Allie (97:49)

That's definitely true.

Unknown (97:50)

All right, take care. Yeah. Thank you, guys. Bye. Bye.

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