E897 Ask Nick - Am I A Nag?

Summary

The Viall Files - Episode E897 Ask Nick: "Am I a Nag?" and More

In Episode E897 of "The Viall Files," host Nick Viall delves into listeners' relationship quandaries, providing insightful advice on navigating complex interpersonal dynamics. This episode features two primary "Ask Nick" segments, each addressing distinct relationship challenges faced by callers. Below is a comprehensive summary capturing all key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode.

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1. Am I a Nag? – Listener Lauren's Relationship Struggle

Caller: Lauren (also referred to as Casey), Age 29
Topic: Considering breaking up with her boyfriend who only wants sex on weekends and doesn't want children.

Summary:

Lauren has been in an on-and-off relationship with her 44-year-old boyfriend for five years. Recently, their relationship has come to a pivotal point due to significant disparities in their sexual relationship and life goals. Lauren desires a family and seeks more intimacy in her relationship, while her boyfriend insists on limiting sexual activity to weekends and has expressed a clear disinterest in having children.

Despite attempts to communicate her feelings, Lauren finds her boyfriend dismissive and even verbally aggressive during arguments. The relationship has reached a state of limbo where Lauren has verbally ended it but continues to live together, creating ongoing emotional tension. Lauren is contemplating moving across the country to live with her family as a means of seeking a fresh start.

Notable Quotes:

• Lauren [02:17]: "It's sex life plus intimacy. I think if things were better on that front and I was being more fulfilled, I'd be willing to compromise on some things."

• Nick [03:05]: "If he were willing to make those changes, why hasn't he? It's a reflection of him, not you."

• Lauren [06:11]: "He definitely says in conversation, like when we're having this normal conversation, it's something that he can do... but he doesn't know why he doesn't give it to me."

Advice from Nick Viall:

Nick analyzes the relationship dynamics, highlighting that Lauren's boyfriend exhibits traits of selfishness and deflects responsibility by portraying himself as a victim of past infidelities. He points out that the boyfriend's unwillingness to address core issues like intimacy and the desire for a family indicates a fundamental incompatibility. Nick emphasizes the importance of Lauren trusting her instincts and prioritizing her own happiness and future aspirations over staying in a stagnant relationship.

He advises Lauren to follow through with her plan to move, suggesting that distancing herself will provide the necessary clarity and prevent falling back into an unfulfilling cycle. Additionally, Nick underscores that a healthy relationship requires mutual effort and willingness to compromise, which her boyfriend lacks.

Key Takeaways:

• Self-Prioritization: It's crucial to prioritize one's own needs and future aspirations in a relationship.

• Recognizing Incompatibility: Significant disparities in life goals and relationship expectations can signal fundamental incompatibility.

• Breaking the Cycle: Stepping away from a stagnant relationship can pave the way for personal growth and healthier future relationships.

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2. How to Tell Our Friend We Don't Want to Hang Out Anymore – Shannon and Jim's Dilemma

Callers: Shannon, Age 24-26, and Jim, Age 26
Topic: Finding a respectful way to distance themselves from a self-centered friend without causing hurt.

Summary:

Shannon and Jim are an engaged couple grappling with how to address their friend, Max, who has been overly dependent on them for social interactions. Max, a lawyer, often dominates conversations with self-promotion about his career, leading others to find him exhausting. Historically, Max struggled to maintain friendships, dating younger women who also found his behavior difficult, resulting in him being frequently cheated on and left feeling victimized.

After Max's recent breakup, he has increasingly sought Shannon and Jim's company, hoping to fill the void left by his unsuccessful relationships. Despite recognizing Max's problematic behavior, Shannon and Jim feel guilty for wanting to set boundaries, especially since Max lacks other friends to lean on. They seek advice on how to communicate their feelings without appearing unkind or abandoning him.

Notable Quotes:

• Jim [88:00]: "He doesn't have many other friends to hang out with because he would talk about himself a lot."

• Shannon [93:37]: "We're tired of saying no all the time. We're tired of making up excuses."

• Nick [100:22]: "You really have nothing to lose because, like, here, way I see it, is like, eventually... you're just going to slowly distance yourself from him and break up with him."

Advice from Nick Viall:

Nick advises Shannon and Jim to have an honest and direct conversation with Max. He emphasizes the importance of setting clear boundaries by expressing their needs as an engaged couple and addressing how Max's behavior affects their desire to spend quality time together. Nick suggests leading with positive reinforcement by acknowledging Max's good qualities before addressing the negative aspects of his behavior.

He encourages them to speak from a place of empathy while maintaining firmness in their decision to distance themselves. Nick also recommends steering away from passive-aggressive hints, as Max does not pick up on subtle cues. Instead, a straightforward approach will likely be more effective in conveying their feelings and the necessity for change.

Key Takeaways:

• Direct Communication: Clear and honest conversations are essential when setting boundaries in friendships.

• Empathy with Firmness: Balancing empathy with firmness helps convey the message without unnecessary hurt.

• Prioritizing Personal Well-Being: Maintaining one’s own well-being and relationship health is paramount, even if it means distancing from others.

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Overall Insights and Conclusions

Episode E897 of "The Viall Files" underscores the significance of self-awareness and assertiveness in maintaining healthy relationships. Whether it's a romantic partnership or a friendship, recognizing when boundaries need to be set and having the courage to communicate them is vital for personal well-being and relationship satisfaction. Nick Viall's empathetic yet straightforward advice empowers listeners to make decisions that align with their values and life goals, ultimately fostering more fulfilling and respectful connections.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Lauren [02:17]: "It's sex life plus intimacy. I think if things were better on that front and I was being more fulfilled, I'd be willing to compromise on some things."

• Nick [03:05]: "If he were willing to make those changes, why hasn't he? It's a reflection of him, not you."

• Jim [88:00]: "He doesn't have many other friends to hang out with because he would talk about himself a lot."

• Shannon [93:37]: "We're tired of saying no all the time. We're tired of making up excuses."

• Nick [100:22]: "You really have nothing to lose because, like, here, way I see it, is like, eventually... you're just going to slowly distance yourself from him and break up with him."

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This detailed summary encapsulates the essential discussions, advice, and emotional undertones of Episode E897, providing a clear and comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the episode.

Transcript

[Nick]

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[Jim]

You're crazy.

[Nick]

How's it going?

[Lauren]

Good. My name is Casey. I'm 29. And my question is, should I break up with my boyfriend because he only wants to have sex on the weekends?

[Nick]

Okay. Is that like a hard and fast rule or is that like something that it's just kind of organically started happening?

[Lauren]

I mean, we've been dating for five years and there's gone, like, on and off fluctuations of the relationship and our sex life, but he's very like. I guess I wouldn't say it's a rule, but he's made it known that he's disinterested in sex on weekdays.

[Nick]

Okay. And how serious are you considering breaking up with them over this?

[Lauren]

Well, I guess there's been a development since I wrote in and we kind of did have a discussion where it's basically been ended, but it's kind of also not been ended at the same time because we're still living together. So I guess kind of part two of my question was, am I making the right decision? And my plan is to move across the country back home with my family.

[Nick]

Okay, so you guys are, as far as, you know, kind of broken up. You live together, but like you guys said, a minimum acknowledge that there's a problem for you. And he didn't do enough to fight for the relationship, basically.

[Lauren]

Correct. I was kind of like, sitting with these feelings and then we ended up getting into a huge argument a few weeks back and I ended up, like, in that same argument sharing my feelings about this concern as well as several other concerns that I had in the relationship and decided to come to an end, but not immediately because I'll be still be staying for a while in the home. It's his house and we weren't breaking up because of like immediate reasons, a lot of it included. There's a lot of other things like wanting a family in my future, etc.

[Nick]

He, he doesn't.

[Lauren]

No, he's 44, so he's decided that he's too old for kids and he's just totally disinterested in that and not willing to entertain the conversation.

[Nick]

Okay, so, so would you say, I mean, all jokes. Yeah, all jokes aside, I mean like how, how much of this breakup is around a lack of sex versus a myriad of other things. Like for example, you want to have a family someday. And according to him it's a non negotiable that he doesn't.

[Lauren]

The sex life is a big thing. It's sex life plus intimacy. Why I say that is because like, I think if things were better on that front and I was being more fulfilled in that aspect and in our relationship, I'd be willing to compromise on some things. My brother and sister in law, they just had their first baby and she's turning one soon. So my big thing is like I'm not going to get to be a part of that life because I live on the opposite side of the country. And then I'm also not going to get to be a mom. So when I'm not feeling fulfilled in that aspect of my life sexually and in our relationship and different things like that, it feels more like a big thing to me to be missing out on those other things. Whereas if it was great, maybe I'd be more willing to compromise.

[Nick]

I mean that, that makes sense. What else is going on in your relationship that's making you consider leaving?

[Lauren]

Well, I mean the big thing is intimacy basically. We don't ever really kiss or cuddle or like anything like that. Sex life can be like I was talking about pretty vanilla. It's not a lot of like spontaneity really. Only the times sex happens for us is like 2:00 in the morning when he's drunk. And I'm not into it because it's not really romantic to me.

[Nick]

Gotcha. All right, so it sounds like sex is very much on his terms. And those terms are like you said, are often at a time where you're not interested and I'm, you know. And then you mentioned intimacy, kissing, holding hands, touching, things like that. I mean, I think every guy, on some level there's room for improvement when it comes to those types of little things. But I guess my question to you is, is he the type of partner that you occasionally needs to be reminded, but when you are, when he is reminded, acknowledges that like he can do better or that's something that's important in the relationship, or is he scoffing and blowing you off or making you feel like a nag or stupid for even bringing it up and asking which is more reflective of him?

[Lauren]

He definitely says in conversation, like when we're having this normal conversation, it's something that he can do. He doesn't know why he doesn't give it to me. And it's a simple and easy thing to ask for. But as I mentioned earlier, we did get into a big blow up fight where it's happened maybe like four or five times in our five year relationship where he's gotten like super verbally aggressive with me and he was totally super awful in that argument and said something along the lines of that because I'm young and inexperienced, I have nothing to reference it to and the amount of affection that he gives me is completely and totally normal. And then I'll find out with any other guy that I'm ever with. So gotcha. That kind of soured me towards the future as well.

[Nick]

That would make sense. I mean, it's interesting how he felt comfortable speaking for every man ever in any type of relationship. But to me that's just like, that's just a reaction to feeling defensive on his part, not, not in any way excusing anything he said. But I'm guessing that's where it comes from. And how do, and I'm assuming you know, like that that's not the case or true.

[Lauren]

He says I'm young and inexperienced, but he's probably like my fourth serious boyfriend. So I've been in relationships.

[Nick]

You're 29 years old, you're not 17. You know, like, it's also like a weird thing for him to say given like you are his girlfriend. You know, I couldn't imagine at this stage for me to tell my wife, who's three years younger than you and I'm the same age as your boyfriend, to talk about her inexperience or her youth at this stage of our relationship. It's a, it's more a reflection of him than it is of you, you know, because that's basically it's just like, well, why are you dating? I would say, like, why are you dating this person? You really think she's that young and inexperienced? You've been a with her for five years. And B, she's 29. And so is that what you prefer? Young and inexperienced is or is like, is your reason for dating this younger person is because despite her age, you were surprised by like just how much you guys had in common or how much you guys enjoyed each other's company, or just how much you wanted similar things and yada, yada, yada. That comment is very much, to me a reflection of him and not you. It's just a projection of, you know, his point of view and doesn't really speak to anything about you.

[Lauren]

No, I know. I think like part of it is we did have a lot of things in common, but I have heard things from his family and then just noticed about him in general that he does kind of like to date people more on the side where he can shape and mold them into more of a person that suits his lifestyle better, into where he doesn't really have to change at all.

[Nick]

Yeah. Well, how's that worked out for him so far?

[Lauren]

He's been cheated on by like all of his past girlfriends and I think he takes a lot of that out on me as far as like commitment wise. Again, we've been dating for five years. And another thing, he hasn't asked me to get married and that's something that I want and doesn't seem like something in his future.

[Nick]

Yeah, listen, I'm not saying it's his fault for being cheated on, you know, but clearly what you are describing is a person who, if what you're saying is true and what you've heard is true, and I'm sure there is some truth to it, is that this is a very stubborn individual who as this person has gotten older, has obviously been able to date younger. Whatever. I'm guessing he looks fairly good for his age.

[Lauren]

Yes.

[Nick]

Yeah. So because he's aged gracefully, he's, you know, able to attract, you know, younger people as well. But again, the pattern his family members are noticing is like this is this very stubborn person who is able to, like you said, kind of mold person into their lifestyle, which I think I'm sure he would say kind of works at first. Whether that's, that's whether it is like conscious intention or not. You know, it's like one thing for a family member to deserve something versus him being like, well, I do this because this. And he just, I suppose it just kind of happens that way. But I would imagine, you know, like you are in this position now feeling the way you're feeling versus past ex girlfriends. Is that like, again, not to justify cheating at all, but it makes sense that someone who, like, initially dates younger is in a position of power, right? I bet you feel like you have a lot more agency and voice in this relationship than you did when you first met the guy. And when you first met the guy, you were 24 years old and he was 39 years old. And you know, I don't, I don't know what it felt, I'm sure kind of exciting. He probably had more money than you. He probably had more means, a little bit more life experience. He probably spoke maybe with a little more confidence. Maybe you were a little bit more quiet and demure at first. I don't know. But I'm sure as you, your relationship, you know, as you guys got to go now that you found your voice, I'm assuming it felt like he was your equal. And as you continue to find your voice, you speak up more, you ask for more, you demand more, you, you know, and if he's still acting as if like you're going to be the Same person at 24 as you are at 29, he's in for a rude awakening. And it sounds like he has been in for a rude awakening. Partly of the problem maybe is some of these younger women he dated didn't know how to communicate to someone older. Someone who is obviously like, not really open to communicating could be accused of being dismissive when they are trying to communicate to him. And their immature response was to find comfort in sanctuary outside of the relationship before the end of the relationship, which again, is not okay. But like, you would think he would be reflective on some of the choices he is making to try to avoid future frustrations, but he's not. I mean, you know what I'm saying? He's just not. He's not willing to go there. So based on what you're telling me you're describing, someone who seems pretty set in his ways, seems to be unwilling to look in the mirror and reflect on what role he played in the failure of his past relationships. Right now, my guess is he is scapegoating his ex girlfriends and victimizing himself as the person who's been cheated on. And while he was wrong, and that's obviously, I feel really bad for him and he doesn't deserve what happened to him. He can still look in the mirror and ask himself, what could I have done differently in that relationship? What could have I controlled that would have improved that situation? And a lot of people have a hard time doing that because to do that, people feel like they're taking the blame for someone else's actions. Right. I think a lot of people, I've mentioned this before, struggle with empathy versus an explanation. People are afraid to understand why things happen out of fear of justifying what happened. Right. That's the thing people struggle with the most. So he hasn't tried to understand the why. It's just been easier for him to victimize himself and make them the bad guy in his story rather than look at could I have done things differently to avoid that outcome? Maybe the relationship would have, would have ended, I don't know. But maybe he made it very difficult to communicate with someone and again, they made it. They made a poor choice themselves, they stepped out of the relationship, it hurt him, but he's not doing anything differently. He's just rinse and repeat, breaks up with that one, finds a new younger girlfriend, dates them for a while, enjoys the, I'm guessing the honeymoon phase of dating someone younger because like he gets his way a lot. They're very in awe of him. He feels important, he feels validated, you know, et cetera, et cetera. They find their voice, they speak up. He's just like, I'm an old dog, no new tricks for me. It's a cycle that keeps repeating. The only that's different about your relationship is that you seem to be willing to address this head on without, you know, stepping outside the relationship before you do. So.

[Lauren]

Yeah, I mean, that's just always been a non negotiable for me that, like, if I'm ever getting to the point where I feel like stepping out or having feelings for somebody else, I'm always, I'll break up, I got to break up. I never want to do that. But.

[Nick]

So let me ask you nail on.

[Lauren]

The head with like, with the dynamic of our relationship from start to now and his perspective on being cheated on in the past, so. That's exactly right.

[Nick]

You know, obviously you called in with the question of am I making the right choice? Let me ask you this, like, if he were here, right, like, what's his version, what's his version of the story? Like, what would he say to me? Do you think that would change your mind or at least help me or the audience empathize with his plight more? What, what do you think that would be?

[Lauren]

I don't know if it'll help people empathize with him, but I think it's honestly genuine, genuinely what he thinks is like that I haven't given him enough of a chance to kind of change things and he knows these are all things that he's super capable of and that he can. He can and will do anything to make the relationship work. And, like, whatever it takes, he'll make the relationship work.

[Nick]

But what is he. So then what is he doing?

[Lauren]

I mean, we went. We went through this phase. I. We almost broke up basically over the summer. And he said all of these things, and, I mean, things were good for a while, but it ended up being like. I think I'm realizing the reason it ends up being good is because I'm the one that starts to fully invest back in the relationship again. And then after a few months, I started to pull back again because I'm like, wait, is he really trying? It doesn't seem like he's trying that much. So I don't know if I could say, like, he'll be a little bit better for a few weeks about complimenting me or walking our dog or just trying to do something to make me happy. But then after that, it feels like it kind of goes dry again when.

[Nick]

He said, I don't know why I am the way I am type of thing, but, like, if I could, I would. What does he mean by that?

[Lauren]

I mean, I've said. I've said to him before, like, he just says, like, it honestly doesn't cross his mind. And I'm kind of like, well, I call bs. I don't know. Sorry if I'm allowed to say that.

[Nick]

But you can say that.

[Lauren]

I mean, he has. He has a ton of things, like, he's really good at. I know maybe this is a common analogy for men, but sports stats and all these things and all these different facts he can keep in his head and remember to do things, and he'll set reminders to make sure he does things. And I said, why don't you put a reminder on your phone? Make sure you give Casey a hug when she gets home. Or make sure you kiss Casey a little bit more. Like, just different reminders of things like that. That.

[Nick]

Yeah, I mean, listen, I don't think I'm. I'm not the most affectionate guy, you know, like, physical touch is not on the top of my love language. Right. It's on the top of my wife's, then. Yeah, to that. To your point, you know, I have to, like, remind myself that, like, I really need to come home and embrace my wife or do something, and I could always be better. Right. But, like, when my wife brings it up to me, I don't play victim. I'm always like, yes. And I either try to do the thing she's asking, and we have a playful banter. Sure. Back in. But it's never a fight, that's for sure. It's one thing for a love language not to be a strength of mine. It's another thing to, like, be so defensive of that fact that instead of acknowledging I'm not meeting my partner's needs, I argue with them and try to justify why I haven't done that as opposed to just shutting up and doing it, you know, And I that think that comes with maturity, which is disappointing for him because if you told me your boyfriend was 28, you know, I would maybe just think that he's just a little stubborn and a little immature. 44. I mean, this. He's not figuring it out. You're not describing a man who's ever really been able to learn from any of his heartbreaks. You know, he's only. He's only paying himself out to be a victim.

[Lauren]

My question is on that is like, he kind of challenges me a lot that, like, I need to tell him more. But it gets, like. It doesn't make the intimacy as, like, I don't know, it doesn't feel the same when you're constantly having to remind somebody. So it's like, how often do I have to remind somebody? Or is that, I mean, just up to me how often I want to do that in my relationship? I mean, at a certain point, it gets kind of, like, not genuine anymore.

[Nick]

I think it's a bit of a dance, right? And I don't know your exact dynamic, but for starters, for one, when you do bring it up, it shouldn't come with resistance from him. It shouldn't come with, like, huffs and puffs and complaints. And, you know what I'm saying, where you really feel like it's one thing to have to ask, you'd prefer not to ask. It makes it really attractive when he, like, complains about you asking and find and makes it seem inconvenient as opposed to like, he needs to treat it as a. Like he appreciates you taking the time to remind him kind of thing. You know, listen, for example, Natalie, like, I was in New York over the weekend. She didn't get to come. I was there for a wedding, ran some errands, and Natalie was like, I was stopping at a store to get a friend, like, a small, like, thank you gift. And she knew what store I was going to, and she's like, by the way, I really love their sweaters. I'm a size Medium in a playful way. Now, I didn't end up buying her a sweater. I ended up sending her flowers or whatever. But she, like, in a playful way, she, like, always, like, will throw out jokes about, like, getting her this or getting her that. It's not really serious or anything like that. She is sometimes. Sometimes giving me ideas, and then I will deliver on some of these ideas from time to time, and I actually appreciate it. Like, to me, in a lot of ways, I think Natalie sets me up for success. Right? She will joke about flyers from time to time. It's never like, why don't you ever get me flowers? She'll joke about, like, boy, grocery stores always have flowers right at the checkout, and they make it so easy. You know, it's just like a little reminder here or there. And Natalie has a nice way of doing it without making it feel like I'm being nagged and. But it's up to me to take advantage of those kind of ideas that she has. Does that make sense?

[Lauren]

I've literally had, like, this the same thing. Like, the last time that we broke up, I said, like, for example, some things you could do is just when you go to the store every now and then, like, buy a flower. Like, buy. Buy something. Just. It doesn't have to be, like, expensive. Just something that shows that you were thinking about me. And then, like, so we get back together, and my thoughts are, oh, man. Like, he's going to go to the store and get me flowers after we just had this conversation where I said, get me flowers, and then he doesn't. So I kept playfully nudging, you know, oh, you're going to the store. Like, why don't you buy. Buy me some flowers? Or we went to the farmer's market together, and I was like, oh, is this. Are you going to buy me flowers? And he's like, do you really want me to buy you flowers here? And I'm like, well, I guess not.

[Nick]

Yeah, he is definitely a very. It sounds like a very stubborn man who doesn't like to be told what to do. And when you are saying these things, he is. He gets annoyed. And I imagine you feel frustrated because you're like, well, he's definitely not going to give it to me if I never bring it up. When I do bring it up, makes it. He. It's almost like, well, now that you brought it up, I'm not going to do it because it's like he doesn't want to be told to do anything or reminded to do things. And it's just like. Well, okay, yeah, like, you. You said a few minutes. Minutes ago that he thinks that he would do anything to make a relationship work. Is that accurate?

[Lauren]

It's accurate that that's what he said. I don't. It's. I don't believe that, though.

[Nick]

Well, I know you don't believe it, but I'm saying, like, why do you think he said that, and do you think he believes it?

[Lauren]

I really don't think that he wants to have to go through another breakup again. I mean, obviously, I know he really loves me and cares about me. There are a lot of, like, really great aspects to our relationship, as in, like, we're, like, best friends. But I feel like that's, like, where it stops. But I think he wants to believe that he can do all those things for me. So that's why he says it. It is a true statement. Those are easy things to give or to ask for, and it's not unrealistic. So I think he's being honest in the sense that he believes he can do it, but not in the sense that it will be done in terms.

[Nick]

Of, like, back to the sex, you know, because men are men. Like, have you done things to spice things up on your end only to be turned down? Let's say, like, send him a sexy photo randomly, hoping that he would, like, get turned on and want to come home and ravage you and, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, have you done anything like that and then been turned down?

[Lauren]

Yeah, I definitely, definitely do things like that. But, like, it's just more of, like, a responsive, like, flame emojis. And then that's where it ends. So I've done other things, you know, like put on lingerie and come out into the living room, or, like, come out in the shower towel in the living room. And it's usually initiated then, but I'm not the most 100%, like, confident person in myself sexually. It doesn't help to have a partner that's really not that into having sex all the time to build that confidence.

[Nick]

He'S really giving you with.

[Lauren]

I try as best as I can.

[Nick]

He doesn't sound like a man in therapy, but I'm just gonna ask, is he in therapy, or have you guys tried couples therapy?

[Lauren]

He has gone to therapy specifically to get over being cheated on. And then he said he went one day and just no longer had any upset feeling, so he never went back. He did agree to do couples therapy with me, which entailed me calling around to a bunch of couples therapists being able to book an appointment and not getting any help in booking one. So. And then we're where we are now. So.

[Nick]

So. And then you mentioned you're kind of broken up. Like, what's his state of mind right now?

[Lauren]

So I ended things. And then we're still living together and I decided to have a conversation with him like, hey, basically we're still going to be living together and we're hanging out like we're still friends and doing all these things together, like we're still friends. Which is weird because a week ago we were boyfriend and girlfriend. So it's hard. Like when you're sitting on the couch with somebody watching TV or doing all these things together, it's involuntary sometimes to put your hand on their leg or rub their shoulder, do things like that. So I kind of just said, what's your boundaries as far as while I'm still living here? And he said, I always want you to hug me, kiss me, touch me, whatever, as long as you're here. And I did say like, okay, but my mind's not going to change as far as like wanting kids in the future and that's a non negotiable for you. And he said, yeah, so that's kind of where we left it. And like he said he's okay with us being intimate until I go. I just don't, I don't know if he fully understands there's no chance of ever getting back together. And I don't know if I'm making a bad decision on his or being like rude or inconsiderate to him by still doing those things while knowing it's not going to go forward.

[Nick]

He's an adult. He's a big boy. He's 44 years old. I don't know if he takes you seriously. I mean, he's, he's not giving the energy. Like he is. Right? Like things aren't adding up. Right. If you're a guy who says, I would do anything for you, I don't want to leave, lose you, I love you. A he would be willing to make some changes. Some of your asks aren't that hard, you know, Like, I don't think it's one thing, you know, having sex only on the weekends. I guess. I mean, like if you guys were having sex every Saturday and Sunday, I'm like, two times a week is not the worst. Late at night he's, you know what I'm saying? Like drunk, you know, it's just like, no, no. Who would want that? You know what I'm saying? Like, who would want a relationship where the sex life is solely decided by the man one side, and then again he doesn't want to have kids. You do that alone. I mean, quite honestly, like, if, if that really is how he feels and that's how you feel, then you guys definitely should break up. That's.

[Lauren]

I think it's the kids thing is like a super new feeling for me. I was always kind of on the page of like, I don't see myself being a mom ever. And then my brother and sister in law had a kid and we had a FaceTime call over Christmas and I was looking at her face on FaceTime, the baby, and I was like, I.

[Nick]

Think she listen, it's the bat. Listen, I don't want to.

[Lauren]

And so I've been battling with that.

[Nick]

Listen, I. Obviously I'm biased. I'm a new dad. I don't want to project any of my parenting necessarily beliefs or desires on anyone else. But like, it's the greatest thing ever. I've never met a parent, you know, whether they've always wanted to be parents or like yourself, kind of decided later in life that something they wanted, that they didn't think it was like the absol most incredible experience and like gave their life some real purpose. I hope everyone has the opportunity to experience what it's like to, to be a parent. That's an awesome, awesome thing.

[Lauren]

My brother and I grew up with like a lot of family trauma and so my brother's very similar to you and how he talks about his daughter and how he talks about being a dad and like how I get to see him being a dad and I being able to see a family member that grew up in those same like traumas and experiences that you did. Be a successful parent is like really eye opening towards being like, oh, maybe I can do this too.

[Nick]

You know, it's one of those things too. It's just like, you know, we, we live in a time where we become hyper conscientious of our childhood trau. We become way more aware of reasons, you know, that things that have hurt us or damaged us. Right. But I think we've become less resilient as well. Right. And I think some of these things that we become aware of to explain what happened to us, to explain why we are the way we are, it like it's, it's. I think it's important, right. Because it makes us feel like things are less our fault. At least it gives us a path for healing. But I Also think in a lot of ways, it's become an excuse not to make improvements in our life. Right. I didn't have a traumatic childhood relative to, like, for example, my wife. Right. Or sounds like you. But there's a lot of people who choose not to use past misfortunes as a reason not to, like, be a better version of themselves. Sounds like your brother really has embraced fatherhood and wants to not bring upon, you know, his daughter what was brought upon him. Right? And so you can choose to do that. Right? And you can get therapy, you can get help, and you can acknowledge that, hey, this should happen to me, but I don't want to pass that down. I can do things differently. Like, your boyfriend sounds like he's just. He's just a victim, especially when it comes to cheating, and I want to do things differently. Everything you're saying sounds like you've really thought this through, and he's not giving you anything to work with. Even now you're broken up and he's not even fighting for you. He's just kind of like, well, you know, I guess, you know, he's being a gracious host. Like, he's being a really cool landlord. You know what I'm saying? He's just allowing you to continue to live there. And he's like, yeah, I mean, like, we can still have sex and, like, hook up. I mean, he's being really, really nice about you staying there. He really is. He could be a much bigger dick. You know what I'm saying? But he's not fighting for you. He's not doing any. You know, he's not doing anything that makes him really feel like he's gonna miss you or be sorry. And, like, the best you can do is wonder if he's even taking you seriously. And honestly, who. Who knows?

[Lauren]

I just, like, I really struggle because I've gone through this before. Like, I had an apartment ready to go, and I had talked to my job, and I was ready to leave. And then I ended up staying and listening because he said he was gonna, you know, change and fix everything. And then here I am again in this phase where, like, okay, it all feels real again, and I'm making plans to move and leave. And then, of course, I mean, I know this is so common, but, like, all I can think about is all the good things and all the. Like, he's being a very gracious host. So we're having all these really great times together and laughing and joking and being more intimate, because that's what happens when you Think you're about to lose somebody and it's really hard to fight those feelings and be like remembering all the reasons that you want to leave right now. And I'm like, not.

[Nick]

That's what he's banking on for sure.

[Lauren]

The right decision.

[Nick]

Well, all the other stuff aside, his rude comments, the limited sex, the lack of intimacy, the fact that he makes you feel like a nag, all that aside, the fact that you want to be a mom and he absolutely doesn't, that's all you need. I mean, that's. You should assume he's not going to change. I don't think anyone should be in a relationship with someone who clearly doesn't want to have kids and then tries to convince themselves if they're okay with not having kids for the sake of a relationship. Think of all the things he's not willing to do for you, the little things.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And he is indirectly asking you to give up on the miracle of being a mom. That's a huge ask.

[Lauren]

Yeah. Well, he's like, he said that's a pretty crappy reason to end a relationship. I mean, I know it's a big reason, but I think it's a pretty crappy one because like nothing else went wrong but that. I'm like.

[Nick]

He hasn't matured at a, at a rate he should have at this point in his life. That's, that's an insane thing for him to say. And if anything, what that says is that he is, he's, this is. You're describing a person who is very much can't think outside of himself. He's a very, he's very self centered, he's very selfish. And that's honestly very typical for a lot of like people who aren't in committed relationships. He's 44 years old and he doesn't have a family. And that's not a criticism on him. It's just that like prior to me being in a relationship with Natalie by default, I had a more self centered life. I only really had me to care about. And even when Natalie and I were still dating, it wasn't like we were just boyfriend and girlfriend. You know, my primary concern was me, my job. The people you know, like you just by default become more selfish and self centered. And he has really like leaned into that. And he seems to be incapable of even acknowledging what he's asking you. He doesn't want to have kids and he's expecting you to be comfortable with that and make you feel bad for thinking about like, well, because you don't even want to break up with him. Here you are fighting for this relationship. It feels like you're fighting by yourself. His big solution to this whole relationship problem is for you to get on board. Like, in every category, at least what you're describing, whether it's the sex life, whether it's the intimacy, whether it's the having kids, he's very consistent. And which is, this is how I feel. This is who I am. Take it or leave it.

[Lauren]

What advice would you have in helping me? I guess, like, stand my ground in my head. And the mom thing is strong, but it's a new feeling. So I'm kind of like, well, what if it waivers? It's only been around for a couple months. So, like, that's why that is hard being a deciding factor to me. Like, so do you have any advice on. I want to make sure that I don't end up staying for another year, and then I'm back here in the same place that I am now.

[Nick]

Like, back together with him.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And then let's assume that happened.

[Lauren]

I mean, we've gone through this cycle where it's like, almost ended and then stayed together. Stay together.

[Nick]

I don't want this for you, and you don't want this for yourself, but let's just play that, you know, if you broke up with him and you moved back home, he didn't move on, he didn't forget about you, you didn't move on, you didn't forget about him. You guys reconnected in six months, nine months, you're back, you move back together with him, and literally in a year from now, you are back together, with it being kind of essentially the same. That would be a choice that you make for one. Like, you know, no one's gonna make you do that. Right. So, like, if you do do that, you're choosing to do that. And that's something you need to recognize, too. That's not the worst case scenario. At least at that point, you were able to go home, enjoy your niece or nephew, you know, spend time with family, probably date other people, get a sense of what else is out there. Explore your feelings about children. If you decide a year from now that you don't want to have kids and he's willing to get back together with you, then what did you lose? Nothing. You know what I'm saying? What you. You gain. You gain perspective. You gained, like, at least to explore what else is out there. What the real worst case scenario is for you to accept this life that you have right now. Which is making you unhappy. And despite how much you're fighting for this relationship, it sounds like you're fighting a battle by yourself. And I would hate for you to know nothing about it and just accept this as the best you can get. And then a year from now, still be with the guy having these same feelings and not even knowing what it's like and still questioning whether you should leave or not. At least with that other scenario, at least you got to leave and chose to come back. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's not for nothing. Yeah, you, you know, you would be gaining perspective at least. But that's, again, that's, that's. You don't have to go back. It does sound like it doesn't take you very seriously. Like, you've gotten this close before, like you said, and the routine was for him to just like, allow the fear of breaking you guys up to reconnect you guys, have a little more steamy sex, you know, take some of the tension off the table. But that's not what you want because, you know, that's temporary. So in the short term, I would probably stop sleeping with them. For one. I would act like roommates. That might help you get some perspective. It might.

[Lauren]

It's just hard to draw the boundary there.

[Nick]

Sure, yeah. Criticism toward if, if, if you have such a hard time with that, that's part of the reason why he's not taking you seriously. At some point, this person, this your boyfriend, like, he's not changing because at the end of the day, it's been easier for him to wear you down.

[Lauren]

It sounds, it's hard to think of it like that because then it, like, makes it sound like, malicious on his part, but I guess it's not. Just maybe like self defense.

[Nick]

Yeah, I mean, subconsciously, like you've heard me use this, like, metaphor before, but people do not spend more than they need to. You know, people don't. They're not charged 15 do dollars at the register, and they don't just offer 20 bucks for no reason. So if you are constantly, always accepting what he's willing to give, even if it's the bare minimum, then he's generally only going to give the bare minimum. So all he has to do is kind of wear you out and he ends up getting his what he wants. And that's probably been fairly consistent from him and what he. And what I. And I really empathize for him. I really feel for him because the only thing that's really happened out of this so far is he gets cheated on, which is such like an egregious sin in a relationship, he quickly becomes the victim. So here he is in all these relationships, including yours now, where he pushes their partner away. He pushes their partner away, he disconnects, he stonewalls. He makes himself out to be like this mini victim. As if like I'm trying my best but you're, you asked too much of me but like, I'm not going to do this and I'm not going to do this and I'm not going to do that again. They make the decision wrong as it is. They made a decision partly because they, you know, they don't know what to do with this fucking guy anymore. And like, well, thankfully you have the maturity and the self respect not to cheat on, on him. That his partners didn't have the same self respect that you had. And then that happens and then immediately there's no reflection on like the role he played. He's just like, I'm a victim, they're a bitch, they cheated on me, they're horrible, and poor me. And I really feel for him because like this has become a pattern for him and instead of growing through these experiences, it's almost stunted his growth as a man.

[Lauren]

I know you're very big on. I haven't read your book. I'm not a big book reader. Maybe I will. But I know you're very big on. Don't text your ex. Like not maintaining friendships after my, my big thing is his family has been like, I, I mentioned I had some family trauma and like, so his family has really become my family. I've been there for every event for like his nieces and nephews and his mom and his dad have like, I mean they really become my family. I do want to maintain a relationship with them. And then, I mean I, I think I'd be fine maintaining a relationship with him sometime in the future, like friendship wise. But I'm curious.

[Nick]

I don't recommend it.

[Lauren]

That's a bad idea.

[Nick]

I do. Yeah. Listen, I, I understand all the things you're saying, that in the short term it's going to be, it, it makes the breakup more difficult because you know, that's the problem with, you know, having five year relationships is that you don't just develop relationships with your partner, you develop relationships with their friends. And some cases they really become as much of a support system for you as it, as they were for your partner. It makes your life harder, it makes it easier for him to get back in.

[Lauren]

He does this Every time we almost break up, he always guilts me and says, this is what happens. I'm never going to be able to talk to you again. Everybody says that they'll stay friends, but they never stay friends. And I have no problem just being a friend if a relationship ends and I just know you're never going to talk to me again.

[Nick]

Yeah, it's a little manipulative, but also your boyfriend's giving a little bit of boy, right? Like, and here's the thing. When you break up with someone, you should break up with them. And like, I'm assuming that if, if I were a genie, I could tell the future. If I was like, Casey, I hate to break it to you, you'll. You'll never find love outside of this relationship. This is it for you. You would probably stay in the relationship. You'd be like, oh, that sucks. I mean, it's not perfect, but like, I guess he's good enough, you know? Like, you, if you're gonna break up with someone, you should assume, because it's almost certainly true, that you will find someone else. I don't know when that will be. But the only reason you are considering breaking off this relationship is because you think you can do better, that you deserve better, that you deserve a relationship and a partner who is going to make it feel like they enjoy making you feel happy. They look forward to making you feel happy. Yes, they need to be reminded from time to time about what they can and should do. But like, they appreciate the reminders and ultimately they wake up excited every day, thankful that you are in their life and glad they have an opportunity to show you that love, right? Because you do. Everyone deserves that. And if you're gonna leave this relationship, it's in pursuit of finding that right? And you will find it someday. And so with that in mind, you need to do that immediately, right? And you need to live your life as if you're not. You're moving on and pursuing that next life and that next love. And you don't know who that's going to be with or who it is, but you're going to start today whenever that, you know, if you were to end the relationship, that's, that's the mentality you need to. Only reason people stay friends and breakups is because they're, they're second guessing their decision. Or in his case, if he's being broken up with, he's hoping for a lifeline, right? It's not, it's not because they're actual friends, right? Either you're going to find someone new or he's going to find someone new and both your partners gonna be like, no, you. No, I'm not comfortable with you being friends with your ex of five years. What are you guys friends for? You're just simply friends because you haven't replaced them with someone else. But here I am in your life now wanting to be your boyfriend and I'm really uncomfortable with Chad being your buddy when he was your boyfriend for five years. You know what I'm saying? Like, no one's going to be okay with that. His next girlfriend, if you break up with him and he ages down, whatever, and finds the impressionable young person who puts up with his, like, very, you know, rigid, like, expectations of what he's willing to give in a relationship, she's also not going to be comfortable with you and she's not going to be comfortable with you. Like being best friends with his sister or mother or whoever. I'm not saying you need to cut off his family immediately, but listen, it's, it's, it's a sad reality of relationships in life and you will recover from it. And again, your next boyfriend, well, I don't know how their family dynamic is going to be. Maybe he won't be as close with them or whatever or yada yada, but like, you will be able to find that. But the goal for you, you're looking for a family potentially, right? You're looking for a life partner. You're interested in having children and you're not going to, I promise you, if you're lucky enough to find someone that is excited about spending the rest of your life with you and having a family with you, you won't give a about like what friends you kept, you know, out, you know, in, in your previous life, your life will literally, I mean, talk to your brother. He'll know what, exactly what I'm saying. It's just like your life kind of starts over from that moment, you know, and you're just not going to have time to, to keep in touch with your ex boyfriend's mom. You're just not going to care. You'll wish her well. It's hard for you to recognize that now because you're still, you know, you still love your boyfriend, you still live with them. You're kind of like you're broken up, but kind of not really. And that's just like a hard thing for you to grasp. But it's definitely not great to stay connected and in touch because it just makes it that much more difficult to move on. And if listen, getting back together is not the worst thing. It's not having any clarity. And so yeah, it's harsh but, but it's the right thing to do if you do decide to move on.

[Lauren]

A good way to think of it is like it's not going to matter to me as much once I've created one of my own.

[Nick]

It won't.

[Lauren]

So I guess that's a good way to look at it.

[Nick]

And like you know, you have friends and you have your brother and like you have a sister in law and like the people who are always closest with. At 29, I'm trying to think where I was in my life when I was 29, but I promise you that will evolve. And you definitely shouldn't be making decisions about your future self and your future life for like relatives of ex boyfriends who decided they weren't willing to like do their part. So.

[Lauren]

Okay. It's helpful to hear your point of view on him as well because like if I talk to my like girlfriends or my mom or whatever, it's kind of just like he sucks. Leave him. And then if I talk to his family member and his, his friends, it's a little of like, well like this is just him. But I think he can make it work.

[Nick]

So if he wanted to, he would. Yeah, listen, I, I really do empathize with him. And that's not for you to like feel so bad for him. You stay with him. He's not over his being cheated on for sure. He's also, he hasn't been willing to look at like the role he played. I wonder if even that question would trigger him. Is he, is he aware of how stubborn he is? The difference between you and all his exes is that you have your own personal boundary about like your unwillingness to cheat. Some people are just like, have had enough trauma in their life and that's just maybe their parents did that shit and they just think that's the answer to getting out or whatever. They self sabotage things like that. Some people not to make excuses for any of his ex girlfriends. Shit happens and communication's hard. And your boyfriend, it sounds like he's very difficult to communicate with.

[Lauren]

Yeah, I mean I've had, I've had that same literal thought of like, I mean I would never do it, but I can see where a woman would get to the point where they might feel like stepping out on this relationship dynamic.

[Nick]

Yeah, I mean think about it. Right now you're, you're just like, I'm talking to you. And you're giving me all these answers and like, like. And you're still struggling with wondering if you're making the right decision. Again, not justifying at all, because I do think it's one of the worst things you can do to someone. And cheating on someone really will them up emotionally and mentally. And it's just a terrible, terrible thing. But the reality is, is, like, it's more common than. It's not common. And you have to ask yourself why. Right? And there are reasons why people do it. I had to reflect when I got cheated on in the past about, like, you know, could I have done things differently? It doesn't. It doesn't make it my fault. It's no one's fault for being cheated on. They made a choice. But you can still look at your own choices as what got you in that position. Right? And so here you are. Your boyfriend's really good at making you question how you're feeling and making you, like, not confident in your decisions. And I can see a less better communicator who doesn't have the boundary you have feeling like they should break up with this guy afraid of doing it so they just like another guy to, like, kind of make the decision for themselves in a way like that shit happens. And like, your.

[Lauren]

Your boyfriend, you can't come back from that.

[Nick]

Yeah, you can't come back from that. That and like, you know, it's your boyfriend, it's like, right in front of his face, you know, and he doesn't even want to, like, do anything about it. And, you know, it's funny, ironically, here he is telling you about other men and, like, what you're supposed to accept and things like that. What's more accurate is, like, if you don't change, you're going to keep pushing all of your partners away at some point. He wants to speak for all men. I think you can speak for more women talking about what they're not going to be okay with once they find their voice and are uncomfortable in a relationship with him. And if he only wants to have sex on his terms, and if he only is willing to be affectionate on his terms and make you feel bad for asking and make you feel like a nag and, and make you feel stupid or like, you know, for. For wanting some of the things in your life that he doesn't, it ain't gonna get much better for him.

[Lauren]

Oh, I wanted to say one last thing before we end the call. The side note kind of unrelated, but I wanted to say thank you for having the perspective that you do on the. The Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni drama. As somebody that's dealt with harassment and things like that, it's very refreshing to have at least one person in a podcast of you guys always saying things that I'm like, am I crazy?

[Nick]

Yeah. Well, listen, it's been. It's been.

[Lauren]

I appreciate it.

[Nick]

Well, thank you for saying. And I appreciate you saying that, because sometimes it does feel like we are alone with our opinion, but I can assure you we're right.

[Lauren]

But anyways, I appreciate all of your advice and everything that you do, and I love the podcast and everything.

[Nick]

Thank you very much. Sorry you're going through this, but you're not crazy. And I think your instincts and your gut is right, and I think you should follow your gut. You're only 29. You're still incredibly young. You have a ton going for you. You can leave this relationship feeling good, knowing that you've tried. And every relationship I ever been in that didn't work out, whether I got cheated on or whether I broke up with them or whether they, you know, broke up with me, I always felt like I did everything I could. I. I probably stayed in a relationship longer than I should have. And so, you know, the stuff about, you know, you thought you were going to break up in the past and didn't and yada, yada, like, if you decide to leave this man, you can feel good that you've. You've done everything you could, you tried. You turned over every stone you looked in every nook and cranny, and he just decided that this is who he is. And if you're not going to accept who he is, then he's not going to change. And it's not your job to convince him how wrong he is. You never. You can't predict the future. I don't know. You know, it would be hard for you to trust that he's actually going to make a change, because, like, once you break up, then it becomes something he's only willing to do once you took serious, took seriously. But, like, put it this way, fast forward, let's see you break up with him. Let's say all of a sudden he's like, oh, crying and begging for you back and really changing. I would say to him, I don't think you ever really dealt with the reasons why you've been cheated on and why. Like, you know, and then this may hurt your feelings, but, like, I understand you got over the, you know, the hurt, but, like, you never really addressed the why? And while it's not your fault you got cheated on, like, there is a pattern in your life that you're not willing to change for the people in relationships, and you force them to make these drastic decisions. Like, I didn't want to break up with you. You know, the only difference between me and your ex girlfriends is I just chose a healthier way to get out of the relationship. But the end of the day, I wanted to be in this relationship, and you pushed me away. You know?

[Lauren]

Yeah, that's a good idea. Good point.

[Nick]

Good luck. I hope this was helpful.

[Lauren]

Yeah, it was. It was really helpful.

[Nick]

All right, well, take care, guys. Please keep us posted. We'd love to know what you end up doing. And we're. We're here if you need.

[Lauren]

All right.

[Nick]

All right.

[Lauren]

Thank you.

[Nick]

All right. Bye. Bye.

[Lauren]

Bye.

[Nick]

This episode is brought to you by Better Help. We all talk about therapy, how important it is, and it's never been more important than right now. I know so many of you, no matter how much we've talked about the benefits of therapy, have thought about therapy, considered therapy, and avoided therapy. And we get it. Listen, it can be expensive, it can be inconvenient, and also can be really hard to find a therapist that, well, I even want to go see, let alone connect with. Well, that's where BetterHelp comes in and making it easier than ever before to check out therapy and get the mental help that you may need, whether it's general anxiety, relationship problems, work problems. Maybe you're just ruminating too much. You know, whatever it is, therapy has really impacted my life, our relationship, mine and Natalie's. And since BetterHelp is working with new therapists every day, they make it very easy to connect with the therapist. All you have to do to get started is go to betterhelp.com, answer a few simple questions about the type of therapy you're looking for, what you want to talk about. And better help will assign you a therapist that they think will be a good fit for you. You could be talking and having your first therapy session in just a couple of days by just going to betterhelp.com right now. And God forbid that your first therapy session doesn't blow your mind. No worries. You can switch therapists until you find someone that you are absolutely in love with. It's more affordable than in person therapy. It's incredibly convenient. You can literally, whatever your preferences are, you want to do it from your phone, your apartment. You can do it on vacation. All you have to do is have something to connect your a phone, a tablet, a computer. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving over 5 million people worldwide. Access a diverse network network of over 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. Easily switch therapists again at any time at no cost. Build your support system with better help. Visit betterhelp.com v I a l l today to get 10 off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H e-l p.com v I a l l who doesn't love bread? But wouldn't it be nice to enjoy bread without the guilt? Well, with Herobred you can focus on your health goals and still indulge in the soft, fluffy food you love guilt free. Whether it's a nutritious breakfast wrap, avocado toast, grill cheese with cozy soup, a family burger night, Herobred has you covered. No matter what kind of bread you are craving loaves, tortillas, bagels, rolls or pastries, Herobred has it. Their food tastes great and it feels great too Nelly. And I love breakfast sandwiches in the morning and using Herobred's Classic White Bread or Herobred's Cheese and Herb Crescent rolls are absolutely a favorite for us. Their products are delicious and flavorful, but have ultra low net carbs, zero grams of sugar and are high in fiber. The best part is you wouldn't know it from the texture and amazing flavor. With Herobred you can get monthly small batch drops of indulgent favorites like their 4 net car bagel. And new surprises coming this year, Herobred is offering 10% off your order. Go to Hero and use code V I A L L at checkout. Again, that's V I A L L Hero CO spelled H E R O CO Hero CO how's it going? Hi.

[Casey]

I'm good. I am Shannon. I'm 27 years old and I'm a lifelong vegetarian and I'm wondering if that's worth changing for a man.

[Nick]

Lifelong. Okay, lifelong.

[Casey]

All 27 years of my life, you've.

[Nick]

Never had meat in your life.

[Casey]

Never ever. And yeah, it's kind of some unique circumstances for it because I'm the only one in my entire family. And so I grew up in the Northeast and kind of decided from a very young age with a good friend of mine who's basically like a sister that we loved animals too much and didn't want to eat meat. And we grew up at a boarding school where both of our dads taught, so we just ate at the dining hall and didn't really have to have her parents cook for us, so they respected that. And then all these years later, just kind of stuck.

[Nick]

Gotcha. Okay. Is that a deer on your shirt?

[Casey]

It's a moose.

[Nick]

A moose. Okay.

[Casey]

Yes, it is. Now, I live out in the west in a really rural area where hunting and meat is very prominent. And that's why it's become an issue, particularly in my dating life life, because everybody where I live eats meat. That's the main part of their diet. And for me, it obviously isn't. And I tried to kind of not bring that up right away, but people eventually learn and then they kind of write me off. So wondering if I should start eating meat to give me a better chance at love and dating or if I should stick to my guns.

[Nick]

Is there a particular man that you're considering doing this for?

[Casey]

I have a man in my life right now. There's been many men who have. Have pressured me since moving to where I live now to do it. And so now I'm currently in this casual relationship with this guy out where I live. He's born and bred, so he. He pretty much eats elk for every single meal, every day. That's all he eats elk? Yeah. So there's big hunting in elk. He kills his own elk.

[Nick]

That's immediate.

[Casey]

His own elk, all those things. Yeah, that's it. He's a carnivore.

[Nick]

I don't even eat elk. Me. Yeah.

[Casey]

Yeah.

[Nick]

How is El? I would. How do. How do you know? You never.

[Casey]

I want to know.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Casey]

So this is the guy, particularly right now. I consider, quote, unquote, changing it for. But it's also kind of difficult because we're in a relationship where he's a little bit older than me, he has kids and wants to move closer to where his kids are, and that's his priority. So we likely won't stay together forever and ever. But part of me is like, but if I ate meat, would you consider making things work? Whereas me being a vegetarian, he says, I. There's. I look at my refrigerator, I can't cook anything for you. We can't eat dinners together. He doesn't want to cook something for someone if he's not going to eat it. Like, he's not going to make me a vegetarian meal. So is that more of a problem with the relationship?

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Casey]

And so it's kind of double double sided, this particular relationship. And just in general, where I live, it is so prominent.

[Nick]

Why.

[Casey]

And why do you just change it now?

[Nick]

Why do you live where you Live out of curiosity.

[Casey]

Well, so, yeah, I, I moved out west, so I live in like the least populated state in one of the least populated counties. So just my chances of love are slim.

[Nick]

How did you end up in Wyoming or Montana?

[Casey]

Yeah, Wyoming.

[Lauren]

You nailed it.

[Casey]

I moved out here to work for a ranch a while back and then just loved it so much. I stayed and, and love the community aspect. There's so many amenities in terms of we have a really nice gym and library, there's to the outdoors.

[Nick]

You love where you live. To be clear, I love where I live. Yeah.

[Casey]

And so kind of right now I feel stuck with a triangle of I can only choose two of the three things. Either staying a vegetarian, staying where I live, or finding love. Where if I want to find a long term sustainable relationship and stay a vegetarian, I have to move elsewhere. And I can't really get all three where I live.

[Nick]

It's funny because Natalie and I were in a meeting earlier today talking about something, but our relationships came up in general. And I talked about how dating Natalie is. Out of all the women I've dated, Natalie is the person that for all our differences in personality, of which there are many, partly because of just our personalities and there's our age difference, et cetera, et cetera, we like a lot of the same things, shows we like to watch, foods we like to eat, things that we like to do and that matters. And I have had to realize, like younger me, you know, 22 year old me was like, love is all you need. And it was like I almost kind of got off on like how incompatible me and someone I thought was hot were. And the idea that like, you know, if I loved him enough or I was willing to sacrifice enough, that like I, I somehow got a, like a medal for being the most, I don't know, know, miserable, you know, love martyr, you know, in a way. And it just like it, it matters that, that really matters in a relationship. Like the day to day to not have to compromise every goddamn day about what you do or what you eat or where you go or who you hang out with. Like, relationships are hard enough. So, you know, some of the small day to day things like you, you want to make sure you're compatible on as many things as possible because there's, you know, relationships are hard. I have dated a vegetarian and like you, she was like a vegetarian her whole life. She grew up on a farm, you know, and she loved animals. And the idea of like eating like the baby cow is just like, you know, whatever. I did get her to try meat at one point. I don't know, like after we broke up, it was, oh wow, you know.

[Casey]

Anyways, and see that's my thing where, where now in my life I don't really have a full on reason not to eat meat. Whereas I mean, I'm healthy. I like my body where I'm kind of like if it ain't broke. So I don't want to introduce a foreign object to my body and throw this system off. But I understand like where carnivores were supposed to eat meat. My body would adapt, but I'm not.

[Nick]

Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't start with a porterhouse steak. Yeah, I would, I would start light, you know, have you, have you eaten fish at all, everyone?

[Casey]

No, like, yeah, I'd start nothing ever.

[Nick]

Ever. I'd start there, you know, honestly. Listen, if you decide to go down this route, I'm sure there's plenty of literature you can read and smart ways of doing it.

[Casey]

Everybody has their own opinion on it, so.

[Nick]

Well, yeah, but I would go with the experts. I would listen to the dietary experts.

[Casey]

The person that's wanting to cook, cook and break it for me. So. Yeah, and that's the thing too, where my mental hurdle of should I do this for this man in my life to see if things will work out better? Should I just do it just in general to take that off the plate within relationships or should I stick to my guns and just, just when I want to? It'll come.

[Nick]

Here's my opinion, just my opinion. You definitely shouldn't do it for a man.

[Casey]

Yeah, that's what I figured.

[Nick]

And the reason is because one, you know, like you're dating a guy, you don't know where it's gonna go, you don't know if he's the person, yada yada, you're not doing it for him. But you have noticed a repetitive problem. You have chosen to live in this community. You've made this choice. You moved to Wyoming, you fell in love with it. It you can go on and on about the things that you like, it makes you happy, right? And everything that you know, life is full of sacrifices all the time. So you're not doing it for a man or men in general. You're. You're doing it for you. Right? And you have to make that choice between, like, what makes me the most happiest, right. I want to find love someday. I'm assuming that's true, right? Like, you know, you what in. Yes, it is so, right. You want to find Love, you know, you have relate long term relationship goals. Yeah. And you, and ideally you really love where you live and, and you recognize that like where you live and the place that makes you happy. In terms of location, there's one little hiccup and that is, is a very rural place with a lot of like hunting men who like only eat meat and, and the environment in which you live in isn't conducive for a vegetarian diet. I mean if you want to get all like really deep and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like back in like, you know, caveman days or whatever. Like, like, you know, way back in the day, people adapted to their environments. Right. People might have been like, you know, communities were like more carnivores because like the only place, you know, where they could eat was to hunt or some, you know, some communities ate more fish, you know, you know, plant based or whatever because of like the soil was rich in blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And on some level, Even though it's 2025, that's the predicament. That's where you, you have to adapt to the environment. Right. And the environment that you've decided you want to live in is an environment that's very inconvenient for vegetarians.

[Casey]

Yeah. Even in social settings. Not just romantic. It, it's such a big deal anytime I'm hanging out with friends and I mean food is just a central part of social gatherings and I don't even bring it up to people. I just like bring my own food or I eat beforehand and I'm just there to socialize. And all of a sudden it's like walking around the Scarlet letter of like, look at the vegetarian. And that starts getting exhausting as well.

[Nick]

No one likes someone who brings a Tupperware to a party, you know what I'm saying? Like my sister's a holistic nutritionist and like it's just. Yeah, it's the whole thing. I mean, I mean, I'm joking but like. Yeah, like it's just.

[Casey]

Yeah, it's true though. And especially again, where I am is just such an extreme, extreme version of it where it's not just the gluten free person or whatever, it's the vegetarian in meat country.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Nick]

If you called me up, right, and you were like, I've been a vegetarian my whole life. I really like this guy. I moved to Wyoming for college. I'm not staying here my whole life. It's temporary. I'm definitely going to leave this place at some point. I've been like, just ride it out. Bring your Tupperware, date who you date. You know, maybe it'll work out. It probably won't. This is. You're probably not going to find your person in this place, but you want to stay in this place. You know that. The only thing that sounds like you're certain of is that you love where you live and you want to. And you want to stay here as far as you know. So.

[Casey]

Yeah. And for now. And. And I would be willing to consider moving at some point if it does seem like even still, like I said, I live in Wyoming, the least populated state, and I'm in one of the least populated counties. So just the odds of finding my person statistically are lower no matter what what things are out there. So should I just move somewhere else and find someone? And we always joke, like, import somebody to where I live now and come back to it, or should I keep searching where I am and.

[Nick]

Well, I mean, yeah, you'd have to import a vegetarian and I. And that might be more difficult in the place that you live. I mean, listen, all jokes as, like, I think.

[Casey]

And I don't even think I want to date a vegetarian either. Like, the men I'm attracted to and the general types of vegetarian men that are out there wouldn't even be my type or should I change my type?

[Nick]

Your type is your type, you know, to a certain degree. But yeah, yeah, there's exceptions to every rule. And I think sometimes maybe as men get older, they might change their diet. You know, Like, I have a friend who. He only eats fish. He cut out red meat out of his diet. You know, he's still a. A man, you know, but, like, it's just more. He's. He's. He's realized that this makes him feel better. Whatever. He, you know, it's a. It's a. It's a life choice. But, yeah, listen, you can always go back to being a vegetarian. I do. Listen. It's. But based on your type, I guess what I'm saying is, like, yeah, I mean, couples can do it, sure, but it's. It sucks. It sucks. I mean, every day Nelly and I are like, what do you want for dinner? And the worst part of our day, every day, is deciding what we want for dinner. Even though we all like the same things. And our biggest problem, like, because we have, like, we love what we love and we have a somewhat limited palette. And it's just like, you know, we. We have, like, we're busy and it's just like, can we let's just make what we know we will, like, instead of, like, making something new or whatever. And so, like, every day it's like, do we have tacos again or do we have kale salad again? But, like, again, it's already a difficult decision. If every day it was like, what do you want? And what do I want? And like, again, you. Do you feel less connected? Like, I know it's. It's not fun to date someone with a completely different diet. It's just not. It's just not. And, like, you know what that's like, right? It's not fun for. It's not fun for them.

[Casey]

And I can't blame someone for that. So. Yeah, but I know how ridiculous it's going to sound. But to give you an idea of just my stubbornness and the fact that it has been my entire life, not just, like, 10 years, I've never used the bathroom on an airplane before, ever in my life. And I have traveled all across the world, and it's just like a stubbornness thing. I have had to pee on planes. I know I just pee on a fricking airplane. But I was like, I've never done it. I don't want to do it. So if I'm that stubborn about peeing on an airplane for something as big as being a vegetarian my entire life, I feel like that's going to be a hard streak to break. And then look back thinking I ate meat because of this for this person or whatever. It's just going to be something I live with and think about for the rest of my life. But I also might be like, I have missed out this for 27 years.

[Nick]

Yeah, you. This is a perspective thing. You have to change your perspective. You said the word strength streak.

[Casey]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Which tells me that, like, you're like, you remind me of the person. Like, I bet there's a movie out there that everyone's seen that you haven't. And you love reminding people.

[Casey]

Well, I just don't really watch movies at all.

[Nick]

Okay, well, but you get what I'm saying? Like, there's, you know, you kind of. You. Yeah, you kind of like the narrative of having never eaten meat at some point. You. You like telling people you've never peed on a plane. It's like your thing. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah. And if you really needed to, you would. You would pee in a plane or your bladder would explode. So as much as you had to pee and as much as you held it like your life was never on the line and you just like sucked it up and you kind of like the narrative. Right. So if you're gonna do this, like who know it and I can. No one cares but you. You know what I'm saying? Like, no one cares. Yeah. Anecdotally, it's been fun for you to bring it up. Me.

[Casey]

People will care. It'll be like a huge deal and a huge celebration. That part is gonna be a whole.

[Nick]

You get what I'm saying? But your mental hurdle is like, it's the streak of, of I've never eaten meat. And now I. I will no longer be able to say I've never eaten meat.

[Casey]

Yeah. Is that. And the moment that I do eat the meat will just be so prominent of I'm overthinking it and wanting it to be the right reason and not be like, I ate this for this guy and it didn't work out with him.

[Nick]

I can't believe I did that. Well, again. Yeah. Well, the reason is a community.

[Casey]

Yeah. And. Or like I allowed my friend to cook it for me. Not my own father. Like, shouldn't he have the honor? But I'm just. Because it's been 27 years of build up, up. It's becoming a bigger deal to me than it probably should be. Where, yeah, I should just try it. If I like it, great. If I don't. Or should I force myself to eat it and like it to give me.

[Nick]

A chance at stop making it some sort of ceremony or a big deal. If other people want to make it a big deal, let them make a big deal. But it's not a rite of passage. That'd be super weird if in my opinion, no offense to like have your dad cook your first meat meal. Meal is some sort of symbolic gesture. It's not that deep. Like one day you decided to try meat and if you decided to try it and you're like, this is gross and disgusting and you. And let's say you never have meat again. Like, you can decide internally to make that a big deal and make that a thing to yourself and be like, I can't believe I tried meat. And no, you know, like no one cares. That is a narrative that you have held on to that is something that has made you feel, feel special. It's an ego driven thought. It doesn't do anything for you other than it gives you something to like pine over and like ruminate over and, and attach an identity to. You can find other identities. No one cares but you. Right. So you just need to let that go. Really you know, like, be pragmatic about this decision. You know, again, it's not for another person. It doesn't have to be a ceremony, and you can always stop eating meat. But right now, it's a. The choice in the decision is clear. I love my community. As far as I know, if. If all things being equal, I would love to invest in this place where I live and build a life here. Yeah. There are limited men, and so that might change, you know, where I live. And also, like, the diet is like, you know, forget about men I date. Just, like, being involved and embracing this community, like, as crazy as it sounds, like it's not very conducive for someone with a vegetarian diet. So I'm choosing this community over this personal thing that I have, and I want to do that because I'm doing it for the community and I'm doing it for me. You're doing it for you. At the end of the day, it's not for any. At the end of the day, if you want to find love and you do it for a guy, you're doing it for you, whether that works out with the guy or not. You didn't do it for them. You did it because you want to be with them, and you did it for you.

[Casey]

That does make sense. So I just don't know then where. Where to start. And again, that's kind of me overthinking of it if I should. Good.

[Nick]

I think she go pee on a plane.

[Casey]

Well, yeah, that might be the first step. Break all the streaks. Where. Yeah, I should. I just don't know where to start or who. Who and how to break. It's not like it's something I can just do in my home because I don't know how to cook meat. I don't even have meat in my refrigerator where it does need to involve another person. Okay, and so what person should that be? Where should I start? And I helped one of my friends. Friends hike out an elk that she shot. Again, all back to the elk. It's big hunting out here. I wouldn't help the friend hike out her elk. That. Huh.

[Nick]

That would start with chicken.

[Casey]

Well, see, everybody has their opinion. So some people out here say start with the elk. Other people say chicken and then fish. And so I just feel connected to this elk that I helped her hike out of, knowing where it came from, all that. But there's so many types of meat out there, I don't know what to try. And I don't want to go to McDonald's and try a chicken nugget for the first one.

[Nick]

Yeah, I wouldn't do that either.

[Casey]

So it's weird. Yeah. Where to start? If I do decide to go this.

[Nick]

Route, my opinion is I wouldn't ask. Despite you doing this for your community, I wouldn't ask the people in your community. I get why they think elk, right. That's really part of their. But like, listen, you could definitely enjoy, you know, try to eat some kind of meat and find a couple. Let's say it's chicken and fish. And if all you ate was chicken and fish, that makes it so much easier for anyone you date, even your elk eating boy boyfriend. Because, like, I bet he likes chicken. Right. And elk. I don't know, maybe it's a tasty meat. I'm guessing it has a similar, like, consistency of venison, which is kind of like steak, whatever. But like, it's, you know, it's a reason why, like most people aren't eating elk because it's like not the tastiest, you know, of, of the meat categories. You know, maybe I'm speaking on a turn not to offend anyone in the Wyoming area.

[Casey]

Yeah, careful.

[Nick]

I just make it easy on yourself. Right. I would probably start with fish or. Yeah. Or chicken because it's like, it's, it's easier to digest. I'm guessing elk is a tougher meat. Probably.

[Casey]

Again, I'm not the expert on meat, so probably I don't know what it's going to do to my body and.

[Nick]

Well, my, my girlfriend, my ex girlfriend who I made, she didn't, you know, she tried processed sausage and she didn't explode. So you'll be fine.

[Casey]

Okay, great. But, and then I don't know how, I guess. How long do you think I should give it a chance for if I, I eat it? I don't like it. Do I keep, keep, keep eating it until I convince myself I like it.

[Nick]

Or what is the smell of meat dud for you?

[Casey]

Not much, because that's the thing. I'm not intrinsically like, oof. I wish I could have that because if I did, I would have. Again, I don't have big enough reasons not to.

[Nick]

Have you ever tried bacon?

[Casey]

Bacon obviously smells good.

[Nick]

Oh, yeah. I was going to say you should. I would try bacon.

[Casey]

Yeah. I haven't tried it, but obviously always smells good.

[Nick]

Most importantly, all you really need to do is from a, from a digestive standpoint and just like a wellness standpoint. I would do some research and there's probably a lot of information out there because not the first person to go on this journey. What's the easiest path forward for your digestive system to incorporate protein into your diet for the very first time? And from there, experiment. Go to. Go to a restaurant, try something out, you know, try some fish.

[Casey]

Yeah. And obviously it's around me everywhere to just try it off of someone's plate. And I am going to a doctor in like a couple weeks just to get normal blood tests and stuff done. Where I do want to ask them, like, am I super deficient in something that you think meat would help supplement or. Because on the. Again, on the outside I feel. I feel like I'm healthy, but maybe I am missing certain things that would be helpful to have.

[Nick]

Maybe. But that, to me, that sounds like you're looking for another reason. Yes. Just you're doing it, you're doing it for your community. It's that, like, why isn't that enough for you?

[Casey]

Okay. Because it's scary. Because I feel like I'm not doing it for myself, I'm doing it for others and the peer pressure and not because I smell the hamburger and want.

[Nick]

The hamburger, but again, I'm just. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but, like, you really love where you live, right?

[Casey]

Yes.

[Nick]

And if. If you could make this place where you live work for the rest of your life, you. You would. You would, right?

[Casey]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Right. And like, I think, yeah, you're right, that might change. But as. As you.

[Casey]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Sit here today, you would, Right. You know, if there were definitely. If there were enough, if there. You could find a good option, you know, if you could find a life partner who also wanted to live here. Here. You like this place for sure. Yeah. And I would.

[Casey]

Yeah. If I think that's the missing piece is the partner and the person where I have most everything else. I need and want, where I am, it's just finding that person. And I'm feeling like my vegetarianism in the place I live is making me more undateable and having these casual relationships with people where I just want to take the me being a vegetarian out of the equation.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, listen, like, it's. For you, it's fascinating, just like story. Just because, again, it really paints you as an outsider. It really does. You know, if you lived in la, you wouldn't be dealing with this problem. You'd fit right in.

[Casey]

Yeah. And that's the thing, too. When I go other places, I'm like, oh, I'm not. I don't have a scarlet letter on. When I go To Colorado. There's whole vegetarian only restaurants where I am amongst my people and can eat everything on the menu. Whereas you don't want to live there. No.

[Nick]

And that's what I'm saying. Own the decision. Own it. I love this place. I love living here. I really like it. It's not perfect. If it was perfect, everyone would be a vegetarian. They'd have vegetarian restaurants that'd be more manageable. But despite it not being perfect, I really love it and I want to make this place work. How do I make this place work? All right, well, it's. You are doing it for you Lived.

[Casey]

Where I live since I was 20 years old. So I've lived there for going on to eight years now where I really haven't in my chosen adult life. Well, I've lived seasonally in other places but I've always been drawn back to this where I live now, where I don't know if I should try living somewhere else to come back or if I should just again, stick to my roots, feel confident in my decisions of living in this first place I ever found and just being lucky. I found it so young and then like you're saying, kind of adapt to the lifestyle that's there.

[Nick]

I think there's a huge difference between doing things for a man or a woman, depending on who you date, and doing something for yourself because you want to find a person to spend your life with and maybe you've recognized something that makes it harder for people to connect with. With you in general. Right?

[Casey]

Yeah.

[Nick]

This isn't a one off situation where one guy really didn't like your vegetarian diet. Right. This is a theme not just for the men that you date, but the people you interact with, your community. It's something that is a huge inconvenience for you. Your diet in the, with the. Right. Right. So wouldn't it be for you?

[Casey]

Yeah. And that's why too, I was kind of thinking of rephrasing my. The question of should I change being vegetarian for a man? Because I'm like, yeah, no, I shouldn't do that for a man but for myself to have a chance at finding, finding love and a better option again to take that out of the equation and to better connect with friends because they even again, on the social friendship level, I have friends who gather for, for dinners and they had like wings and buns party and all these things that I'm good friends with them but they don't invite me because I'm not going to eat their food. So why would I go to the a Food Central event where I'm like, I would still come, but I am the girl bringing a Tupperware or not eating. And so to be even more socially included and feeling welcome would also be nice.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah. And again, that's why, you know, you're adapting to your environment, which everyone has to do of adapting.

[Casey]

Oh, that's so scary.

[Nick]

You know, life is all about changing. I do think you enjoy being different, which is a fine quality to a certain extent. Extent. But it sounds like, to even a detriment, like you like telling people you love telling people you've never peed on a plane. It's like a fun anecdote you like sharing. Yeah, it is at once. So yeah, but at once it was just like.

[Casey]

But again, nobody cares.

[Nick]

No one cares. Exactly. And at first you did it because you had this weird phobia about germs or whatever and it turned into a thing. And then you would tell people and people be like, no way, Never. Not once. And they'd ask you a bunch of follow up questions. You'd be like, nope, not even then. And like it made you feel like the center of attention for a period of time and you like that. And like that again is just an ego thing. And like, you gotta let that go. And if the fact that you would be hanging on to that in lieu of like feeling more involved in the community that you love and making you feel more a part of the place that you'd like to build a life is a little nuts.

[Casey]

Yeah, I agree. Pretty good psychoanalysis of myself, I would say.

[Nick]

Well, you know, I'm here to help. So yeah, take it slow. Don't. And so again, you having your dad, you know, like that's doing it for your. Do it for yourself. Go on your own journey. Yeah, talk to us. Talk to your doctor. Talk to a couple dietitianary experts. Read a couple things online. Do not ask men that you're dating or people in your community. You know they're going to serve you elk. You know, if you want to eat elk for the first time, eat elk for the first time, but do it for yourself and do it by yourself and then don't make some big announcement that, that maybe would be like a challenge for you to like.

[Casey]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Check your ego at the door and, and make sure that you're not doing it for.

[Casey]

I don't think I would tell anyone if I did it or I would keep it under wraps for a while because I don't if it's not something I'm Planning to keep doing like I want to know it's going to be I like it and to be continued part of my diet where I mean maybe again that's part of the ego thing of I don't want people to know I broke the streak or whatever. I just more don't want them to celebrate this big hoo ha thing thing and everybody making it such a big deal that they finally won and made the 27 year long vegetarian change teams.

[Nick]

Yeah, whatever. That's just people having fun. But you got to let that go. That's really your stubborn, you know, your. Yeah, you've, you've created too much of identity.

[Casey]

My strong headedness.

[Nick]

Well, yeah, I mean it's more, you've created too much of an identity around it. An identity that really hasn't gotten you anywhere, you know, certainly not with the place.

[Casey]

Well, because it's been an identity for so long and I've, I've made it work in so many places. I studied abroad in Africa, I've, I've traveled all around and even in college. It's like I have maintained this through my whole life in hard situations where again I think it's a stubbornness. It's hard again where I live, but why can't I keep making it work? But I think changing that perspective to more of a. It would be more to embrace my community than adapting for something or someone else or breaking the streak and all the that.

[Nick]

And you can always go back. You can always go to those vegan only restaurants in Colorado if you want to. You know what I'm saying? Like it's. Yeah, this is not some sort of like point of no return decision you're making. It's an arbitrary streak that you have added unnecessary value to in your life. It's a mental hurdle and it's something you're willing to consider for yourself to make some of your other goals in life, life more obtainable.

[Casey]

Yeah, no, I agree. I just needed to see too what happens once I like have the fork in front of my face where it's easy to talk about it, but then once I'm sitting down, whatever I choose to eat, I don't know if I'll have a visceral reaction all of a sudden be like, oh my gosh, I really actually don't want to do this. Or if I'll be like, yeah, I'll speak. I mean, I have to do it to see, I suppose.

[Nick]

I mean interesting enough and we have to go. But not at one point have you voiced like, oh, I'M really going to feel bad about like eating that pig or else elk. I'm just saying the reason you started being a vegetarian in the first place was because of this love for animals. And clearly, mentally, you're, you've worked through that where like, I think you maybe just recognize that like, you know, there's a way of doing it and the way of not doing it. And I'm sure you want to, if you do start eating meat, you'll probably want to source meat that comes from a ethical place or things like that. But, you know, you've, you're over the men. You have a new mental hurdle. Right. So even the reason you became a vegetarian in the first place isn't the reason you're still a vegetarian today. And I think that's something to know.

[Casey]

Yeah, yeah. And I think I would still want to source it ethically. Like again, I'm not going to go to McDonald's and have chicken nuggets and all that. I don't think I'll ever necessarily get to that level maybe after years of eating more ethically sourced meat. But again, where I live, you can go to the grocery store and buy beef that was literally grown in the backyard and hunting and elk and all those things. Like most of the stuff where I live is locally and ethically sourced and that would be where I want to start. I don't want, I don't want the bacon that, that came from some nightmare slaughterhouses that we hear about.

[Nick]

Exactly.

[Casey]

So, yeah, but I still, I still don't know once that fork is in my mouth if I will all of a sudden be like, oh, no, I do love animals as much as I did when I was 3 years old.

[Lauren]

And made this decision.

[Nick]

I'm sure you do, you know, but.

[Casey]

Like, you know, but eating them doesn't make me love them any less.

[Nick]

Correct?

[Casey]

I suppose.

[Nick]

Correct. All right, well, keep us posted. We would all love to know if you finally.

[Casey]

I will let you know once the fork hits my mouth, I suppose.

[Nick]

You know, I think this is a really interesting moment for you and I think there's a. Diets aside, there's, there's some like, other things going on about yourself and why you see the world the way you do and why you make some of the decisions that like, I think something to reflect on, you know.

[Casey]

Yeah, absolutely. And I do appreciate your perspective of somebody not from my community where everyone in my community is just like, just eat it, just eat it. And doesn't really see my perspective. Or again, like this ego driven streak stuff where. Yeah, I appreciate your perspective on. On on it from an outside party and a relationship expert.

[Nick]

I suppose I want to call myself an expert. But hopefully you found the, hopefully you found the advice helpful. All right.

[Casey]

Yeah, I absolutely did.

[Nick]

Awesome.

[Casey]

Thank you so much, Nick.

[Nick]

All right. Take care. Please keep us posted.

[Casey]

Yeah, I absolutely will.

[Nick]

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[Shannon]

How are you? I'm Lauren and I'm 24, 26.

[Jim]

I'm Jim and I'm also 26.

[Shannon]

And we want. How to tell our friend that we don't want to hang out with him anymore.

[Nick]

Okay. All right. Who's. Are you guys a couple?

[Shannon]

Yes, we're engaged.

[Nick]

Okay. Congratulations. And Jim, is this your. Is it like your. How do you guys know this person?

[Jim]

Yeah, I guess he was connected to me originally, so I guess I could take the context from the top. We knew him in college. College. He was kind of a fringe part of our college friend group. For example, I lived in a house with eight guys. However, he wasn't in the house. Group chat, for example. However, he was in a different group chat with about 20 people. So a little bit on the fringe. Sometimes we asked him to hang out out of pity. Sometimes he'd ask us to hang out a lot. However, a lot of people in the group didn't like hanging out with him because he would talk about about himself a lot. He would talk about going to law school all the time. For example, he posted all of his acceptance letters in the 20 person group chat that I mentioned before. He talked about scholarship money, his prestigious internship, et cetera, et cetera. So he got on our nerves a lot. But we often hung out with him because we felt bad that he didn't have many other friends to hang out with. Kind of making a long story short there, we'll fast forward a little bit to after graduation. And we both, my fiance and I, moved to a big city after school and he happened to be there and we connected up with him and things were a bit different this time. He had a girlfriend who had the same credentials that he had. She went to the same law school as he did and she ended up working at the same firm. So we ended up liking hanging out with him because we thought she toned him down a lot. She would call him out if, if he started talking about law too much and she'd say like, hey guys. Or hey, Max, which is his fake name. No one cares. So, however, over the last summer, things with that relationship started to become a little rocky and he started to ask to hang out with us a lot more, reminding us of what happened in college. Really. He started to ask us to hang out every week. And we really don't have that kind of time or energy to be able to be that type of person for him last fall. So we follow our school's football team very closely, as does he. And we would go to the bar to watch the game, and he knew that. So we would almost every week go to the bar and watch the game with him. And he has seemed to think that after the football season that this weekly hangout can continue. And. And we don't really know how to tell him that we hung out with him every week because we made time for the football game rather than for himself. And I guess I would wrap up with just a couple examples of what we're dealing with. One, he makes reservations for us without us telling him that we could actually hang out on that day or go. A different example was we thought he genuinely once tried to trick us into hanging out, out with both Friday and Saturday, that, no, I'm not going to be in town Saturday. And then I said at the beginning, you know, I really think he is going to be in town Saturday. I don't want to hang out Friday. And then magically, he was in fact in town Saturday, and we saw him on Saturday. So, yeah, that's the. That's the context. And we. We don't necessarily want to break up with him as a friend, however, we just are tired of saying no all the time. We're tired of making up excuses. And then we also don't want to just hang out with them basically out of charity either. So, yeah, this is kind of our.

[Nick]

Dilemma, if I'm understanding your. Your goal, like you said, is to not necessarily break up with him if you didn't have to, but to try to get through to him and communicate to him the way he is makes it difficult to have a relationship with him. And you're hoping to do that in a way that A, he can receive. Receive it and B, you know, not. Not break his heart or hurt his feelings or.

[Shannon]

Yeah, constantly toes the line of we hang out with him because we feel so bad for him. You know, we may not want to. And like, we don't hate him. It's just that we feel so bad. So we agreed to have plans with him, but then, you know, it's like every single week. It's not an exaggeration. Like, I don't see my parents that often.

[Nick]

Is he no longer with this girl right now?

[Shannon]

They broke up.

[Nick]

Yeah. What does this guy have going for him? And what does he not have going.

[Jim]

For him, he has stable employment. He has a dog.

[Shannon]

We live in a big city.

[Jim]

So there's, there's a lot going on. However, we don't think he has many other friends to hang out with. He doesn't have many other friends from college to hang out with, from grad school, from high school to hang out with. That's why I think he keeps coming back to us and, and it's a really big role for us to play.

[Nick]

Does he, when you're with him, does he constantly mostly talk about himself?

[Jim]

Yeah, yeah. He's fallen back into that habit and.

[Nick]

Usually complaining about like how he's a victim of various circumstances.

[Shannon]

A mixture of like complaining about stuff but also just kind of like flexing the, you know, lawyer ness on us.

[Jim]

Or of all these cases that he's worked on or look how many hours I worked this past week. Week. And we heard from a different friend who's also a lawyer and we told them the firm. We had no idea about the prestige of law firms and we thought he worked at this top notch firm. But apparently it's pretty solidly mid tier. So I guess that's another example.

[Nick]

Yeah, I mean it sounds like someone who like for whatever reason lacks some confidence in himself and that has.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And that has turned into him kind of being obnoxious, you know, kind of just.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Nick]

It's funny because the way you're describing this friend, someone I know popped in their. Into my mind, I guess I would call him a friend. I don't spend a lot of time with this person anymore. They're also a lawyer. I don't know if that's a coincidence or not. This particular friend is like a great looking guy too. Right? He's like, he's, he's six two, great head of hair. Just. I mean he's hot. He's. He's a hottie. He's insufferable to be around. He's this absolute, he's an absolute nightmare. And, and he's really been unlucky in love and the truth, the pro. He's the problem. He is definitely the problem, you know, And I don't know if I haven't talked to him in a while. I don't know how self aware he is, but like he has pushed a lot of people away just because like his own narcissism in a way, like, you know, he's justifies complaining or talking about himself. Himself either because like he feels like he's a victim of some kind of mistreatment or yada yada. Yada. Or, or, you know, he's projecting. You know, he doesn't feel like he's getting enough recognition from his circle of his influence. So he's constantly, like, talking about his accolades because. No, no, you know, it's like it's coming from a place. But like, this particular person, like, I, I know a lot of people just were not able to get through this guy and, you know, as a result, it's life's been harder on him. Have you guys ever, like, tried to sit him down friend to friend and level up with them?

[Jim]

Not directly, no. Some indirect messaging doesn't seem to work. So I guess there's another lawyer that we're friends with and we say, hi, hey, Bill and girl's name that I can't think of. Why don't we hear about your job? And I guess a subtle joke doesn't really land. So we, I think internally are probably in the place where. Yeah, yeah. A more direct conversation is probably in store because more subtle ways of doing so or trying to get him to take a hint is probably not going to work at this point.

[Nick]

If he hasn't taken a hint, he's not going to take a hint.

[Shannon]

Is also just not wanting to, like, completely break up with him because we do think that he's so alone is just like, not like, breaking his heart totally. You know, like I said, it just keeps toeing the line of like, we feel so bad for him, but we know he needs to do this.

[Nick]

Well, I mean, as I see it, you could break up with them or you can have some kind of like, intervention in a way, it may ultimately lead to a breakup.

[Shannon]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But I think right now you guys are. You guys are like, you feel a little bit of this guilt. You feel a little bit of this loyalty to him despite, like, you're really not loving his company. You just, like, you've. You've been able to empathize with the fact that, like, clearly this guy is lacking some sort of social skills for whatever reason. That, like, you know, yeah, you feel for the guy. Right. But, like, these are his problems. And, you know, clearly he's smart enough. He's a lawyer. Right. Like, he's not incapable of figuring this out. He just hasn't, you know, I don't know. Either someone hasn't gotten through to him. You know, I don't know about his childhood or what his high school life was like or, I don't know, but like, he's got a personality trait that rubs people the wrong way and good on you guys, that you've been able to stick it out longer than most people have for whatever reason. Yeah.

[Shannon]

I think honestly it's important to note that the law school he went to is in our current city too. So, like, you don't have any law school friends or, you know, you went to this big high school also and you don't know anybody from there that currently lives in our city. Like, I mean, it kind of all adds up.

[Nick]

He pushes people away, right? He. Yeah. What you guys have going for you in terms of you ever go down like the quote unquote intervention route, so to speak? And maybe that's like a heavy word, but just kind of leveling with you, you know, being direct. Right. Is that you two are an engaged couple. And I don't expect someone like him to like recognize that, but maybe even pointing it out where one, like, as an engaged couple, like, you guys need to prioritize each other. Quality time. Yeah. You guys are still really young, so like, obviously a lot of engaged couples in your spot phase are still going out with their friends and still doing their thing. But you kind of have like an excuse in a way that like, sometimes you're not looking for the third wheel, you know, you're just looking to like be with each other and. And anyone. Mo. Anyone should kind of acknowledge or recognize that. Right. So you kind of have a little built in excuse there too. Too. When you don't want to do things. If I were you, I would. I would try to talk to the guy.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, and just level with them and just say, matt, you know, we gotta talk. And you know, for one. And like, with like anything else, it's just like you gotta lead with the love, you know, like, there's no good way of starting this. But you're just like, hey, listen, like one. Sometimes we feel bad that like, we are unavailable when you want to hang out. For one. Obviously we're engaged and like, we're just. Sometimes we just prefer to be with each other and not. And no else. It's not a you versus anyone else. It's just like we want to be alone. But like, listen, like, as your friends, like, we just wanted to point. I mean, it's a tough conversation. He's probably not going to receive it well. I don't know. But like the hope. The hope is, is that like you're able to like, say something where even if he doesn't take it all that well, that like, he wants to do something about it. I don't know, like, I've had to develop better skills in my life. You know, like there have been periods of my time where I've been so, so caught up in my own bullshit that people didn't enjoy my company. I was only talking about me, you know, whether it was my heartbreak or this or that. And I think we all go through periods of being a little self centered and kind of in our own sometimes. And sometimes we need a wake up call. Sometimes it needs a friend being like, you've been kind of a dick lately. His problem is that like you've never, you've never known this guy to not be this kind of like obnoxious person.

[Jim]

That's a problem. It's been going on for a very long time. You think that they'll grow out of it, but it's probably part of the time in his life right now going through a breakup. But the problem is that we've seen this pattern before and that this isn't just a one time thing. He'll get through it. He'll get through with this. It's, oh, we think this is who he actually is.

[Nick]

And, and that is who, like if when you say that, what do you mean? Like who is busy?

[Shannon]

I guess just kind of like what we talked about where when he was with his girlfriend, we felt like she toned him down a lot.

[Nick]

Right.

[Shannon]

Because she, you know, could also say the same things to us about being a lawyer and blah, blah, blah. But you know, she would call him out and like he didn't feel like, I guess as prestigious, you know, when there was another lawyer sitting next to him in the room. But like now when it's just him, like then he can just, you know, blab about his lawyerness to us or like other narcissistic things.

[Nick]

Have you ever said, you know, just like we don't care occasionally.

[Shannon]

Yeah, I think, I think actually, you know, he'll be like, I'm working on this big case and we're like cool, you know. Well, I think it just flies right over his head.

[Jim]

Or maybe he takes it as a joke, but we actually 90 mean it. Seriously.

[Nick]

Yeah, I mean he, he clearly is lacking validation in his life, that is for sure.

[Jim]

Yeah, he, it always seems like he's trying to prove something and I feel like he's trying to prove himself through his career, I guess.

[Nick]

Yeah. Is he goodlooking?

[Shannon]

He's short, but I wouldn't say he's bad looking.

[Jim]

Yeah, he's definitely not bad looking.

[Nick]

Okay, but he's shorter.

[Casey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

Okay. I mean, listen, it's a tough situation you're in, but you kind of have nothing to lose because, like, here, way I see it, is like, eventually, well, at this point, he's not changing, right? He's in his mid-20s. As long as you've known him, he's always been this way. So short of something happening, he's going to be like this. And you two seem like you're at the end of your rope. And despite feeling bad, eventually you're just going to slowly distance yourself from him and break up with him. Right? So the way you should look at it is like you kind of have nothing to lose and you can try to go in there with love and maybe, maybe, you know, Lauren, you can, from a woman's standpoint, try to play a similar role, like, like a sister in a way that, like, his girlfriend did be like, hey, listen, we loved Jenny, but you pushed her away, man. Like, you know, you just, like, listen, you have to create space for other people. Like, when was the last time you asked us about our days or our jobs? Like, you are only talking about yourself.

[Jim]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

You know, you. At some point, you have to call them out. It's just like you. You push people away. And I know that, like, you like having connections with people. Like, we enjoy you sometimes, but, like, you sometimes make it difficult and you sometimes. You often make it only about you. And whether it's hanging out with us or finding, you know, all your other friends or, you know, your next girlfriend, you know, we want you to show them all your great qualities. You know, you.

[Lauren]

You.

[Nick]

If you're going to have this intervention, you have to be prepared to come with some compliments and some things that, like, are going to make him feel good about himself and you're going to want him to try to say, yeah, I need to allow people to see these things in me, you know, rather than tell them, you know, and show them. And you could. You could be like, we want to help you. You know, we're friends of yours. We see the good in you. We can't listen, sometimes we need you to understand that, like, we only want to be with each other, and that includes not being with you or anyone else. But, like, in. And say, like, sometimes we feel like you're. You've become like our little. Little, like, third wheel. And in a way, we love you. You're. You're. You know, I'd be careful calling him family, but, you know, but, yeah, but, like, we can't always be there for you and almost try to help them that way. Where you're coming from a place of love and then you hit him with some hard truths. That's it. It's an uphill battle because you are just friends. You're not a girlfriend, you're not a family member. You're not even that close close. You're just the closest people he has because you guys have the biggest hearts and you haven't had the hearts to break up with them yet.

[Jim]

Yeah. I would also say some happen stance that we happen to be living near in the same city, which is sure where we went to school. So. Yeah, but you're right. We could have breaking up with him by now, but it's hard because we feel bad for him.

[Nick]

Yeah. So you gotta stop with the press passive aggressiveness. And you got to stop with like hoping he picks up on the jokes and you gotta hope he picks up on the cues. He clearly doesn't. He needs me. Like he. What he picked, he does. He is giving you an example of what he picks up on. And that is direct feedback from a girlfriend that says, hey, stop it. No one cares. And at least there's hope. There's hope that he has. At least in those moments. It sounds like he has responded. Well, I'm guessing part of the reason they broke up is that like, she got tired of being the only of. Of. Of having to constantly remind him to be human. And it got exhausting. Much of the shame. You know, at some point he needs to recognize the truth that he has a way of pushing people away.

[Shannon]

And I think just like going back to how he said this has been an ongoing thing for, you know, over five years, five to 10 years now. It's just that because he didn't really have that group of friends, you know, in college or maybe ever. I feel like he kind of thinks that like, now we can have this big college group friend and like, you know, those people that see each other every day and like, that's just like not normal in adult life.

[Nick]

Not for two engaged couples. Yeah, it would be normal if he could find like four other bros who were also single and like, who also wanted to go out. But like, he. He's obnoxious. You know, he needs to care more about other people. He needs to like, literally you should be like, we, we're here for you to practice on. But like, ne, if seriously, he needs to never, like, stop talking about yourself around us. Let people ask you. No one asks you about you because you never give them a chance. Chance. You just come in guns a blazing, assuming they want to know about like, mundane things in your life. We listen everyone. We all have mundane things in our life. You know, I'm not saying this to make you feel bad, but like you, it's just exhausting. What you guys have going for you is. I doubt you're the first people to bring this up, but maybe at some point it'll hit home. I don't know.

[Shannon]

I also think this is just an important conversation to have with him because is eventually we're gonna have to break the news that he's not invited to Jim's bachelor party.

[Nick]

Yeah, that'll be tough.

[Jim]

Yeah, it will be coming at some point. But yeah, there's no way he can come.

[Nick]

I don't think, I mean, I, I, I, I'm not surprised. But just out of curiosity, when you say there's no way, why. Because like, he would be that much drives me crazy.

[Jim]

I don't want him. I don't want to be driven crazy on my bachelor party. It's, this is one of my times. I can be selfish.

[Nick]

Yeah, well, it's a good answer. You just got to level with them, man. The worst thing that can happen, it's, it's a really awkward, difficult conversation that ends with a lot of hostility from his end. But like, if you lead with love, if you come in, you know, knowing that you have to like, acknowledge his good qualities and, and find his good qualities. Like my one friend, you know, I mentioned, like, he is a loyal guy. He would always like, have, have like the back of his friends and things like that. He gives back in the world. But like, he's insufferable to be around because it's always about his insecurities and it's always about like him and it's always a weird thing because he's not the most cocky guy. He's actually a really insecure guy, which is weird because he's also like this like, if you saw a picture of him and you heard about his job, you'd be like, here's this like, you know, lawyer who does very well for himself financially and he's a great looking guy and he's just an absolute fucking mess as a human being, you know, because he just put, he's just obnoxious because he just is. It's always about him.

[Jim]

A point that you brought up earlier that's sticking with me is that in the end we have nothing to lose.

[Nick]

Yeah, you don't.

[Jim]

We lose him as a friend, I guess, which is not something I don't think that we're Going to really miss that companionship. However, I think it will stick with us in terms of, of feeling bad for him. But. Oh, another question I have is I think it seems like he needs to get help for himself. And we're talking like professional help or therapist.

[Nick]

Sure.

[Jim]

Is that a conversation that we can start or is that, is that an out of bounds conversation?

[Nick]

No, I don't think it's out of bounds. I mean, I don't know how he's going to receive it. And I think you have to word it carefully, you know, like, hey, we think you need therapy. Do you guys go to therapy out of curiosity, either of you, or you have? I do, yeah. Yeah. Well, I would start there.

[Jim]

It's been successful.

[Nick]

You would say, listen, that's the easiest way to get through to someone is to try to connect with them. And that is like I hit a point in my life where I felt like I was stuck. Right. And ultimately I think that's where people go and get therapy because like, they aren't able to resolve these issues on their own or by talking to friends or whatever. And they feel stuck and they're hoping like some third party professional person who can like, just talk through some things and offer a new line of perspective, objective. Which is why like therapist or like say someone like myself, I'm not a therapist, but like, I'm an objective person who won't project onto you guys. And that's what friends do. Friends just project. You know, friends like don't even realize when they're offering advice. They're just really offering the things that they would really want to hear from themselves. And, and since you're so connected, it's often, you know, it's, it's, it muddies the waters. Right? So, yeah, I think it's absolutely something friends could acknowledge, but it just has to come from a. I think you need, not from, I think you need therapy. But, but like, this is something that really, really helped me when I felt very stuck when I was a hard. Having a hard time connecting with people or even connecting to Lauren or whatever. You can make up whatever you want. Sometimes we feel like you push us away if we're being honest like that there, you know, one, we need you to understand that as an engaged couple, we're like, we're just not going to want to hang out with anyone but each other. And two, it does seem like sometimes you don't even. That, that doesn't register with you. You. And I think that's something you need to think of, you know, like that's, that's a problem. You need to recognize that as couples, like they might want to spend their own time and like they don't have space for you. But like, listen, like, we've seen you push other people away and it's a real shame because like, you do have a lot of nice qualities, but like, you really make situations often about you. And I don't know where this comes from, but I found for myself that therapy really helped me unpack some stuff and it allowed me to get things off my chest past that they honestly, like I usually would do with my friends. And I stopped doing that with people who I didn't need to, you know, do it with. And like, maybe that's something you could look into, you know, as long as you're coming from a place of love, you guys have nothing to lose, right?

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Don't be mean spirited. Don't say things because you know they're going to hurt his feelings. He might say things that hurt your feelings too. And that's where you have to like bite that tongue, anticipate it because you're gonna, you're gonna hurt his feelings. Right? And hurt people. Hurt people. So like, you know, you have to be prepared for that and not lower yourself to his level and just say, hey, listen man, we're only saying this because you know, we see the good in you and the potential and like we want you to be happy and we, you were happier when you were with what's her name and I don't know what happened, but do you remember all those times where she would call you out? We, we agreed with her, you know, and like you were more fun to hang out, dealt with. He's going to react a certain way and that it's not really a you problem, you know, and the hope is he will reflect his feelings, will calm down and he'll have to look in the mirror and ask himself, do I want to be right or do I want to be happy? And happiness is listening to people who took the time to give him a little criticism that when he like thinks back about what that criticism was, it probably isn't the first time he heard it. They weren't mean spirited, even though it felt mean in the time and that, I don't know, maybe I should look in to get some therapy and, and figure this out because I'm tired of feeling lonely, you know, Definitely. But it's, it's really up to him. But like, yeah, you have nothing to lose and like where you can feel better about this decision is most people could have done what you're doing right now, and they just chose to quit on them, you know?

[Jim]

That's true.

[Nick]

So, yeah, you're. This is kind of where your guys are at. When's the bachelor party?

[Jim]

Not till next spring. We're not getting married till next.

[Nick]

So you got some time. Yeah.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So do it sooner than later, you know?

[Jim]

Yeah, the sooner the better.

[Nick]

Like you. I. I would love. I wish I could figure out, like, a good opener for you guys.

[Jim]

Yeah, I think we'd have to probably brainstorm that ourselves. Also a pro. A little problem with that kind of is we mostly hang out with him at bars and restaurants, and that's kind of an awkward place to do that. We don't usually go to each other's apartments, so, know, I feel like.

[Nick]

Are you expecting shouting?

[Jim]

Shouting? No. I guess what I'm associating going to a bar with sports and beer and TVs is something a little more laid back, relaxed, or trying. We're just trying to enjoy ourselves. So, Yeah, I guess that shouldn't be an inhibitor, especially if that's the only context that we do see them.

[Nick]

Yeah, I would definitely, like.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Invite them to an. You know, it doesn't have to be. We're, you know, just be like, hey, like, it sounds like he'll be down to hang out with you guys. So I'd be like, you know, you're gonna catch him a little off guard.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Shannon]

No matter what.

[Nick]

But it's like, hey, man. Or maybe just wait till he asks you to hang out again. Yeah, I would just say, hey, listen, there's something we want to talk to you about. We. We want you to work on something, you know, and maybe I would use the ex girlfriend as a. An opener in a way where it's just like you. You. Do you. Do you maybe ask them, like, do you think you sometimes push people way.

[Shannon]

Yeah, that's fair. I mean, like I said, he, you know, his law school is inner city. And I've thought about it to myself before, just asking like, hey, do you ever still hang out with people from law school?

[Nick]

Well, don't be passive aggressive. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, there's a difference between, like, hey, you know, why don't you have friends? Which feels a little judgy versus, like, hey, have you thought about the fact that, like, you know, that sometimes you push people away? That's a very direct question. It's very specific. It's to the point. It's not. Not like, it's not a trick question. It's just like, he might be like, well, what do you mean? Just be like, well, you know, and don't be passive. You know, it's like, you. Okay, you. You. You know, and if he. If he pretend he plays coy, I would just be like, well, you. You do sometimes.

[Jim]

Yeah. I have a question. Have you with your hot lawyer friend, did you ever have a conversation like this with him, or did things kind of just fizzle out?

[Nick]

It's kind of fizzled out because he was really. He was never like, that close of a friend friend. He was more of an acquaintance. It never got to that point where, like, put it this way, if I were in your shoes with him, I would say. I would have said something. Yeah, it never got to that point, but I just. It fizzled out organically, and we were never that close, you know, so, like. But, you know, if I found. You guys kind of found yourself in the situation because, like, you moved to a city where he was. You found out. You. He. You moved there, and you're like, sure, let's hang out. And then he just kind of, like, latched on where. Where he didn't latch on to me, so to speak. But I definitely would have said something similar if I were. If I were in your boat. I would. I would say something. And you'll feel good. You. If you come from a place of love and you come from, like, you, you, you. Because you guys do, it's clear you want to help him out. You guys could just. You could ghost him. That's an option, right? Like, you know that. Yeah, you could find a different place to watch the games. It's a big enough city that if you really, like, wanted to avoid him, you could. And he would eventually get the hint, and it would break your heart. But, like, whatever. But, like, you don't want to do that. And that's because you're, you know, you care about him in a weird, obnoxious way.

[Jim]

Having the mindset that we're trying to help him the whole time is probably the way to go. And if we're trying to go backwards from we're trying to help him, then we can find a way to word this, to bring it out to him in a way that he can receive it. And the way he receives it, though, is just out of our control.

[Nick]

You're right. It is. And hopefully it gets to a place where he can just, like, reflect. And you could, like a girlfriend. You can be like, I, I, you know, I can remind you, when you're doing it, you know, like, it's like, yeah, you know, he's got to want to. Yeah. I, I would be curious when you ask him if that what he. I'm curious what he has to say. Has he ever demonstrated any self awareness at all?

[Jim]

I think that answer that answers your question.

[Shannon]

Yeah, I, I don't. Can't think of a time so.

[Nick]

Well, that might, that might be the harshest thing you guys have to point out. Yeah. Which is like clearly you're smart, you're a lawyer, but you, you know, sometimes you, you lack self awareness in the form of the fact that like you were. You almost exclusively only talk about yourself. And that's not attractive to anyone. And it definitely isn't attractive to you because, because like you're only talking about yourself. So like God forbid someone talks about what they got going on. You've never shown an interest. You don't even ask us about what. And ask him like, like, are there things about in your eyes's life that he should be aware of that you know, he has no idea?

[Shannon]

Well, I think a good example is that we actually are having an engagement party this weekend and last week he asked to hang out on that day, which he's already invited to it. So he just forgot. Got that our engagement parties on Friday. But like wants to hang out with us even though he is invited.

[Nick]

Yeah. You know, so maybe point that out. You're just, yeah, you're, you know, it's like, listen, we love you, but like you're, you're, you're just, you're very self centered. It'll blow his mind because he probably thinks no one cares about him or whatever, you know, but like, yeah, you got to work on that, man. You know?

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But yeah, it's tough love and he needs this from somebody. So you definitely should feel good about your willingness. Dude, you're right.

[Jim]

He does need it. I'm not sure if anyone has ever.

[Nick]

Done this and if he gets really mad, like, let's assume he gets really mad. Follow up too. Like, let's say you meet at the bar, he takes it really poorly. Let's say he even storms out, he's like, fuck you guys or whatever. I don't know. Like, let's say it's that crazy. I would, I would text him something like, hey, man, man. Like, I know that was like hard to hear, but truly, like, we just think you, you have a lot of potential as a friend and we've seen you drive people away and sometimes to be Totally honest. As much as, you know, we care about you as a person, we. You push us away. We see your potential. So, like, we've all been there before. We've all been in our own bullshit. But, like, you need to. You need. You have some things you want, you need to work on. And like, you know, we just wanted to bring it to your attention and hopefully you're willing to want to work on it because we see your potential. Potential. If you can communicate that you believe in him as a person, I think it will go a long way because a lot of his insecurities come from a place of him thinking no one believes in him. And the reason why he constantly talks about himself is because he's not getting that validation outside and anywhere else. His problem now is he doesn't realize he doesn't even give people a chance to give a about him because he's, like, so quick to, like, just throw it out there. Out there. But, like, at some. And this is where the therapy can come in is at some point when he was a little kid, this all started happening. Maybe even high school, I don't know, maybe like, when everyone else hit a growth spurt, he didn't. And this is his. I don't know, maybe his dad was a dick to him. I don't know. Right. But, like, something happened way back when and it started this cycle and he's become this kind of insufferable person. So, yeah, lead with love as much as you can. Can. Yeah, to like, love criticism. Love criticism, you know? Yeah.

[Jim]

Lot to take away.

[Nick]

Yeah. As long as you're not about it. Because that's the thing. Most people get to the point where they're just like, so tired of it. And then all of a sudden you're out at the bar and then someone snaps and you're like, why are you such a prick? You know, like, why? You know, like, you're just a dick, you know, and then he storms off, you know, and then it just becomes, like, awkward. So this is you guys maturing. This is you guys trying to do an adult thing and communicate. And honestly, it's good practice. At some point, the two of you are going to be disconnected in your relationship and. And one of you is gonna have to sit down with the other person and be like, ah, you know, like. And you're gonna have to share some hard truths with each other or your children, you know, whenever that happens for you guys or a family member, like, this won't be the last time that you have to have a Difficult conversation with a friend or a colleague or an acquaintance sentence, knowing that they're not going to receive it that well. And like, this is good practice.

[Jim]

That's a good takeaway as well.

[Nick]

And you really have nothing to lose.

[Jim]

I'll definitely be thinking of that going in and.

[Nick]

And you do have something to gain, right? Like, awesome. Like, worst case scenario isn't the worst case. Worst case scenario is you're honest. Them. It really pisses them off. He fires you guys as friend and you don't feel as bad as you would because like, hey, you tried. Yeah, you'd be like, I try. You know, like, we really try with them. We really came into this with the best intentions and we led with love. And yeah, we like harsh things, but like, we tried where other people just quit on him. We tried and he still pushed us away. And now I don't have to worry about uninviting him to my bachelor party and he's not going to show up because he's so mad at us for being honest that like, we don't have to worry about it. So, like, then that will solve your. It'll solve your problem.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And you will have less guilt because you tried. So.

[Shannon]

No, that's definitely a good point.

[Nick]

All right, well, keep us posted. We would love to know how this, how this all goes down.

[Jim]

Yeah, yeah, we'll send a follow up.

[Nick]

All right. All right. We appreciate it. Lead with love. You know, I would definitely think about what you can compliment him on because this is, this is definitely a person who, who for whatever reason is very much starving of people believing in him and, and invalidation and feeling good about himself. It's like no one like hung his like report card on the fridge, you know, and that's why he needs to like amplify the law firm he works at or whatever. You know, it's, it's coming from, it's coming from a place of insecurity.

[Jim]

All right, well, thank you.

[Nick]

All right, well, take care. Keep us posted.

[Lauren]

Thank you.

[Nick]

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