Nick (1:53)

Gotcha. How long have you been hanging out with this guy?

Taylor (1:56)

Three weeks.

Nick (1:57)

Okay.

Taylor (1:57)

That's pretty new.

Nick (1:58)

It's pretty new.

Taylor (1:58)

But I do like him a lot.

Nick (2:00)

You like him a lot? Okay. So how many dates you been on with this guy?

Taylor (2:04)

Probably like five now. Five or six.

Nick (2:07)

All right, I'm curious. When did the alarm bells start going off in your head where something felt a little off, if. If at all?

Taylor (2:15)

I'd say like the. The alarm bells are probably more along the lines in maybe like life, well, lifestyle stuff as well as age. So I. It's not necessarily fully like the married stuff, though. I could. That would be more of a problem. I feel like down the line, if they don't get a divorce or how long that takes or what that looks like. But it's more that I don't know him that well. He owns the bar and he co. Owns a bar, so he Obviously kind of is in that lifestyle more or less. So I would say, like, sometimes just. I don't know what that's going to look like with drinking and stuff, but.

Nick (2:58)

Is that an issue for you?

Taylor (3:00)

Depends. It's an issue for him.

Nick (3:03)

Do you have any reason to think it is other than the fact that he owns and operates a bar?

Taylor (3:08)

I mean, he's definitely drank every time we've hung out, but he's never been drunk.

Nick (3:12)

Okay, but that.

Taylor (3:13)

So he might just be like, you know, a drinker.

Nick (3:16)

Okay.

Taylor (3:16)

But over time.

Nick (3:17)

Are you a drinker?

Taylor (3:19)

Not so much now. I kind of slowed my roll a lot on that. But I will say that's because it affects my body a lot. Naturally.

Nick (3:28)

But, like, when you're hanging out with him, is he having a drink because he's having a, you know, you're out at a restaurant and he has a drink with dinner, or is he just like, kind of always drinking?

Taylor (3:37)

I feel like, so. Well, we're pretty much all. If we're out, we're out at an adult place, so. And every time we do that, he'll have a drink or drink. You know, he'll. But he just drinks beer. But it's just. I feel like it's just steady and so I do wonder how steady it is on a regular basis.

Nick (3:56)

Just out of curiosity, you know, five dates in three weeks is a. Like that pace. Are you used to that pace? Is this new for you? Like, I'm curious.

Taylor (4:06)

I just got out of, like. Well, not just about last summer. I got out of a five and a half year relationship.

Nick (4:12)

Okay.

Taylor (4:13)

So it's been like a long time since I really dated. And I do feel like the pace is nice in the sense that we're. It's not like a ton, but it's been a significant amount. I've spent the night at his place a couple times.

Nick (4:28)

Okay.

Taylor (4:28)

But we haven't had sex yet.

Nick (4:30)

You haven't had sex yet?

Taylor (4:31)

No.

Nick (4:31)

Okay. Is this the first time you. Is this the guy you've liked the most since your breakup?

Taylor (4:35)

Yes.

Nick (4:36)

Okay. I mean, like, you know, again, it's relatively new. Right. And I guess I'm hearing from you a little bit of just like anxiousness and fear or maybe overthinking and breaking down situations. You know, it's like he owns a bar. What does that mean? I've seen him drink, you know, pretty regularly. What does that mean? But we've also kind of been out when we're. When I've seen him, you know, like the married part, you know, you know, like, there's two separate things, I think, to be mindful of. One, you have to be mindful of the fact not to kind of overthink and overanalyze, and you're just going to have to let it, you know, if you like this guy, right. You're going to have to maybe let it play out. Right. It's only been three weeks. You've only had five dates. Five dates. And three weeks is, you know, it's a lot. You know, that's not like, crazy or anything like that, but in a good way, it's a lot. You're, like, you're consistently hanging out, right. For whatever reason, you're now, like, getting a little bit of pause, is there, you know, other than the fact that. All right, you've kind of. You mentioned the mar. The marriage part. He separated you. You have. And you have no reason to think he's lying. Right. You've learned about his life and his situation and his marriage and his career, and now you're just kind of wondering, is this too intertwined or too messy for me? Right. Like, you're not necessarily even wondering if he's being dishonest or for any reason, Right? Correct.

Taylor (5:47)

That's correct. I. I don't feel like he's being dishonest. I feel like he's pretty upfront when I ask him questions.

Nick (5:51)

Okay. So, you know, I guess my answer is I don't really have an answer. Like, I can't say, oh, yeah, you should definitely not do this. Or, you know, if you don't think he's being dishonest and you think you can trust him. It's only been three weeks, so you, you know, you have to be prepared to be wrong about anything. Right. You have to give yourself to grace to pursue a person, to learn more about a person. You think something about him now, and you're going to continue to learn, and you're going to be right about some things and wrong about other things. Right. The hope is that the things that you're right about are the more meaningful things, and you hope that the things that you are wrong about are. Or maybe for the better. You're wrong about. Or, you know, but you're just going to have to be willing to learn. You're going to have to be willing to learn about this person and. And their life. I mean, you're 30. How old is he?

Taylor (6:42)

He's 49.

Nick (6:43)

All right. He's 49. Right. So, like, you're 37. You have a past. You. You know, I Don't know about your life or your relationship. That was five and a half years. He's 49. He's a little older. Like most people you meet in their middle ages, like come with baggage, you know, whatever that baggage looks like, you know, whether it's. It's an ex wife that they're still married to in a house, which is a little bit more baggage than most people are used to, you have some kind of baggage. We all have baggage that we bring into a relationship. Right. He has more tangible baggage. Right. This ex wife that you're like, huh, you're married, like, you know, and then, you know, you find out they're married, you got to ask some qualifying questions and things like that. Some definite red flags, right? Like the fact that he's still married. And it doesn't sound like what you're telling me he has any immediate plans to change anything. Right. Like if he's referencing tax purposes and things like that. Well, those benef. Whatever benefits they are enjoying as a result of them to, to not get divorced, chances are nothing that's not going to change. So what I'm hearing from you is that while he remains single and he's out there dating, he is comfortable with continuing to be married to his wife. Right. There seem to be some practical benefits for those two people to stay married. So my guess is whether it's you or some other woman in his future that will be the reason they eventually get divorced. Because if, if this man is serious about like maybe meeting someone else and developing a relationship and growing a relationship, I hope that he's aware that like that new person eventually might not be okay with him being married to someone else. Now maybe it's too early for you to, to know what his relationship goals are or how intentional he is about this thing that you two are growing into. Does that all make sense?

Taylor (8:38)

It does, it does. I guess in my previous, I will say my previous partner was 49. And I was like, I don't want to go quite that much older. So I really didn't intend to even really date this person. It just kind of did happen.

Nick (8:54)

Yeah.

Taylor (8:55)

Surprisingly, I can't pick apart age.

Nick (8:58)

Yeah, I mean, like I want to date a 34 year old next. I mean, yeah, you can, you can set that as a goal. Right. But like, as we get older, age definitely becomes a lot more relative. And now you're learning that not every person that's 49 is the same. Because, you know, I'm guessing this person's different than your ex and they Come with different baggage and things like that. So I think what's important for you, if you continue to date this guy, to continue to ask questions. Do you know if this person. This guy. Do you know if he's, like, looking to. You know, like, what. First of all, what are your relationship goals?

Taylor (9:32)

Well, you know, originally, I didn't have any major relationship goals when I broke up with my ex, although I broke up with him last summer. I kind of hung. We had some other stuff, and then we were hanging out a lot. And then I. I had originally wrote in because I was like, do I keep hanging out with him, or do I like. I was like, do I rekindle something with him, or do I need to really just move on? And so I just ended up downloading Hinge, and I took a. I went on a couple dates, but then I met this guy in the wild when I was out, and he just kind of has surpassed all of, like, the people that I'm. So I just kind of wanted to focus on one thing because I can't. I don't have the bandwidth for dating a lot of people at once or even trying to.

Nick (10:17)

Most people going, I mean, do you have any general goals, like, do you want to date forever? Do you want to get married? Do you want to have a life partner? Do you want to have kids? Do you not want to have kids? Like, what. What are those?

Taylor (10:28)

I would like to get married.

Nick (10:29)

Okay, you would like to get married.

Taylor (10:30)

I do not need kids. I'm not interested in kids.

Nick (10:32)

So you don't. You're not. You don't need them or you don't want them?

Taylor (10:35)

I'm not interested in them. I don't want them.

Nick (10:37)

Okay, all right. So now you have some idea of. Of. Okay. Those are some of your relationship goals. Do you have any idea what his relationship goals are?

Taylor (10:45)

You know, I did ask, and this was, like, on our very first date, and it was. I was. I guess I think I was feeling very, like, loose because I. I was figuring we weren't gonna date again, but I was, like, listening to his situation. I'd kind of written him off on the first date because. Because of all of this kind of complication and then. But opted to give him. But I had asked him if he. I was like, well, given your situation, you probably never want to get married again, do you? He's like, no, I would definitely get married again. So I feel like that was good. It was a.

Nick (11:12)

So he would. But you have no idea if that's a goal of his.

Taylor (11:15)

I Don't know if it's a goal. I would have to imagine. I don't know that he's thought much about goals if he's still in a marriage. Like.

Nick (11:23)

Well, I don't know. I mean, but that's. That's kind of my point, right? Like, you've heard the word intention. Intention be used. It's a common. We throw it around nowadays. But there's, you know, it does articulate what people may be. Need to do more of in certain situations, which is to be more intentional with what you're doing, with whatever it is you're doing. And to be intentional means that you don't kind of go into anything with or whatever you're being intentional with means you have less of like a laissez faire, you know, like what. We'll see what happens. And like, I'm just kind of open and like, you know, you want some flexibility, especially when it comes to dating early on, right? Like, I think there's phases of dating where there's a, you know, the kind of more openness, laissez faire approach. You know, you need a little bit of that early on. Because early on you have to be open to new things and be surprised, and you have to take a chance on people who might be outside of your type or comfort zone or things like that. That being said, once you meet someone, you know that you enjoy their company early on, you should have a pretty clear idea of what this person wants out of dating, especially if you do otherwise. Like, what are you guys doing? Right? That's how you get in this. That's how people get themselves in these traps. Like in your case, right here you are, you're dating this married man, right? He's still married. That being said, he doesn't live with his ex wife. His ex wife is dating women now. So, you know, in terms of like, oh, is there still something going on between him? You know, it's like, you know, you. Sounds like maybe the way he articulated his situation, you know, makes a lot of sense, right? And you can understand why maybe he's still married. But like, you should have if, you know, you want to get married. How long do you want to interact with someone, get to know them, spend time with them, maybe be intimate with them, invests real time before you understand if that's something they want to do. You know, that's different than knowing someone who's willing to do it. Like, he's like, oh, I'm, you know, because, oh, I'm open to it. Okay, well, you know, it's still early. What I'm, I'm saying is, is I think some point sooner than later, you need to maybe learn more about what this, like, guy's plans are for dating, right? Because if you want to get, you know, you want to get married and, you know, you like them, you know, do you want to take six, do you want to take six months to find out that this man really has no plans on getting divorced? And like, while he's open to getting married, it's not like something he really cares about. And, you know, maybe you'll find out that at 49 years old, he, he wants to keep things pretty casual. He wants to keep, he likes having someone around. He likes having someone to, like, go on dates with, have dinner with. He likes someone to maybe have sex with if you guys start being intimate. And maybe he likes someone to like, again, like, date and maybe even call you his girlfriend if you're willing to, you know, to, to define the relationship. But, like, maybe he doesn't want to get all that serious. Or maybe he, you know, like, how long do you want to wait to find that out?

Taylor (14:23)

I, I mean, I would give that at least three months to, I mean, three to six months. I don't think. Is that crazy to wait for that kind of information because you kind of don't really even know, I think, how much you truly like someone after, you know, I think it takes a couple months anyway to even know if those would be, you know, how, how he feel about that. I will say, like, one of the reasons my five and a half year relationship didn't work out is because he never got around to asking and I just needed to move on. So I definitely don't want to wait five and a half years. I definitely learned something from that.

Nick (14:56)

Okay, well, listen, I, I, and I kind of partly agree with you, but like, you know, again, I'm not asking you to, you know, say, hey, I, you know, do you think you can marry me or anything like that. It's not about what he, how he feels about you, but I, you could get a little bit more information about what you really, how serious he is about. Like, again, what does he want out of a relationship? Like, why is he dating now? You know, at 49 years old, people should know whether they want to date just to have companionship, but, like, have a more independent life, or do they really want to date because they still want to find their life partner now that he is, you know, separated from his wife, 49 years old, you know, middle very much middle aged. Right. Very much has a lot of great years in front of him. Potentially. He very much could be in a position where he's like, I really want to find someone that, you know, in these years I have someone to enjoy life with and I want to find my person and I want to, you know, that would be, that would make a lot of sense. It also makes sense if he doesn't want that, you know, But I, I do think you should be willing to find out sooner than later because sometimes six months turns into 12 months real quickly and then 12 months turns into five years. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, and I think the party. There's a part of you that is afraid to ask. I'm, I'm sensing, right, because like, you know, you finally got the guts to leave that relationship. But I'm guessing it took you a while to get to that point.

Taylor (16:23)

Too long. Yeah.

Nick (16:24)

Yeah, too long.

Taylor (16:27)

It was like, I knew it. And I also had to plan like a six month outbreak for it too. It was a lot of planning on that one.

Nick (16:35)

Yeah. So I want you to avoid getting yourself in a situation like, situation like that again because this does not. Well, you know, while his situation does make sense and it doesn't sound like he's being shady or living some sort of double life, his life is a little bit more complicated. And developing a relationship with this guy will only make his life more complicated for him. And if you do learn that you care about this guy and, and, and things evolve, you don't want to be the person who makes him get divorced, you know what I'm saying? Like, you want him to want to do it because that's what he wants. But like, I think you need to find out a little bit more about, you know, I don't know if at 37 years old and him being 49, I would want a little bit more clarity than him kind of sounding like a 21 year old fuck boy. That's kind of like. Yeah, I mean, like, I want to get married someday for sure. Like, totally. Like, you know, obviously, you know, but it's more, it's more of a. I.

Taylor (17:36)

Don'T think he said it that way.

Nick (17:37)

Okay. I just want to make sure. I mean, you were there.

Taylor (17:39)

Yeah, I feel like he felt kind of confident in saying that, which was good, I guess.

Nick (17:45)

My point is you do not have to be a good people reader. You don't have to like be good. You should just be able to ask, you know, these aren't like, these aren't Interrogating questions, you know, like, what do you want out of dating? You know, like.

Taylor (17:58)

That's a good way to put it.

Jessica (17:59)

I don't.

Taylor (17:59)

I. I was. I've kind of been asking, like, probing questions here and there, but I just kind of like sprinkle them in because I don't want to pepper them all at once.

Nick (18:08)

And that's fair. And you can find the right balance. I'm just saying I'm getting a sense from you that there's a little bit of reluctance from you to press, you know, because you don't want to be pushy or whatever the reason why. And I do think you could press a little bit more than you are. At the end of the day, we are afraid to press in any situation because we're afraid of people saying, you know what? I don't want to deal with this. You know, this is too much for me. You're pushy. Whatever. I feel disrespected. Whatever. Whether it's a negotiation or in business or just. And, you know, we. We sometimes when we're pushy, we're just. We don't want to because we're afraid of offending. We don't. We're afraid of pushing too much and losing what we want, you know, but sometimes we have to push. We have to push for answers. My point is for. In someone in your position who has a hesitancy of pushing, I have a hard time believing you're going to push too much. And if they really care about you, if they really like you, it won't feel like enough, you know, especially if it's just like, hey, you know, you know what I'm saying?

Taylor (19:09)

So essentially I want I should ask them what he is looking for out of dating. I think that is a good question. When he's talked about is that she was also kind. She's just turned 40, so she. She was also kind of significantly younger. And sometimes it sounds like she has some similarities. So part of me also wonders why, you know, because before they ever even get to divorce and. Or her being with someone else, there were other deeper core issues. And so I don't know whether to probe too much into that, but that has me curious. Only because in some ways she just sounded similar.

Nick (19:51)

Similar to who? Him or you?

Taylor (19:54)

Me. But I haven't met her or anything, so I have no gauge. No true gauge.

Nick (19:58)

How's that make you feel?

Taylor (20:00)

Well, okay, in the sense that when he talks about the real, he never ever talks bad about her. And I know they kind of are still in obviously, since they have same friend group and stuff, they, I mean, I think their paths still cross and things like that. I guess if she, if she is similar to me, I would wonder what the core reason is of them not working out in the first place. Because he's kind of, he's pretty laid back and I am too. And then I, I, I just don't, I just wish I could understand better. I wish I would. I, I look forward to meeting her. Why I want to know what she's like because I well may or just ask him and get his opinion on why he thinks they ended outside of the lesbian part. Because I think there's probably a deeper issue than that.

Nick (20:47)

Why do you need, why do you need to know?

Taylor (20:50)

Because I would, I would be curious because if there are similarities, if that would be a similar, like if we would run into the same issues basically. But I guess that might be too probing.

Nick (20:59)

I don't know how necessary. Yeah, I mean, I don't think you need to meet her. Well, here's what I think, you know, I think you don't need to and I probably will sure you if you continue to hang out with them. Sure. But you don't need to meet her to like try to read her. I don't think meeting her is going to tell you anything about your two's compatibility. You know, short of realizing that she might be not as out of the picture as you realize as you thought and you know, she could I guess be problematic or a pain in the ass. But like, I don't think you need to meet her for the reasons you're stating. Let me ask you this, if anything, what baggage do you think you bring into a relationship?

Taylor (21:43)

I bring in baggage.

Nick (21:46)

I mean, baggage is a heavy word, but like, you know, like the point I'm trying to get at is this man that you're dating is married, does own this and, and he's still going into the dating world confident, I guess to be like, I need you to accept my situation. And my situation includes a wife that is still married to me and we own property together. We, you know, like we're pretty intertwined but like, you know, and he has the confidence to expect you to like work around him and that's fine. And he, we all are able to do that. But I'm just wondering, as a 37 year old person who's lived 37 years of life and has her own shit, like, are you also willing to say, this is who I am and this is, these are things that I Need at, you know, this. You know what I'm saying? Like, I just want to make sure that you two are an equal footing and that you're not the person who's always like, accommodating his baggage and his needs while you're just like, you know what I'm saying? Like, because we all. He needs to accept things about you. You seem very open to accepting things about him. You also have the right to say, I'm not willing to accept that. You know, as someone who is in a relationship for five and a half years and him being the first guy you like since then, you have to be mindful of the fact that like, this is going to just, this is already exciting and new because it's a first in a while. You have to be mindful that you don't make, you don't, you don't, you don't start accepting things that you ultimately wouldn't like because, you know, it's just exciting to like someone. Right. You got to remember that, like, you might really like him, but you still have a lot to learn about him. But don't go into this relationship already asking yourself, do I have to be okay with things I wouldn't normally be okay with? You have the right to say to yourself and to him. Like, if, like if, if three weeks go by and you have five more dates and so then you've known this guy for, I don't know what, you know, like a couple months to press him a little bit more about, like, do you think you're ever going to get divorced? Like, no, seriously, like, you know, I really like you and this has been really fun to get to know you and like, but like, why are you still married? Because, like, I'll be honest, I really like you and I just, I want to get married someday. And, and the fact that you are married, it doesn't sound like you're planning on getting divorced and totally get that. Like, you know, financially it might make sense. But like, is that something you plan on doing? Cuz like, you know what I'm saying, Like, I, I would be very cautious about how much you invest in this person given the fact that, you know, you want to get married and he's married and you can't get married to him unless he gets divorced. Right. And so.

Jessica (24:22)

Right.

Taylor (24:23)

And that itself could be a long road.

Nick (24:25)

Fine. But like, I would be very cautious about entering a relationship with someone who's not even a position today to give you what you ultimately want when it comes to being in a relationship for it's like same thing. You don't like I, if someone met you, right. If someone like, you know, if a guy called in, right, and said, I'm, I'm dating this woman, I really want kids, she doesn't. And then he's like, I really like her, she's a lot of fun, we have a good time together. She makes me laugh, love her, you know, we like the same stuff. But like, I don't know, I would be like, I don't know if you should date her, you know, because you don't date someone knowing that like one of your big major like benchmarks, a non negotiable, if you will, like you getting married sounds like a non negotiable for you. Someday you want to get married. I mean, yeah, life might change, who knows? But like you want to get married. So I wouldn't, yeah, I'd be very careful about dating married men or married men who have no real plans on getting divorced. And like. Well, I get it. I get his explanation. Makes sense. It just might not be for you. Right. And you know what I'm saying? So I would be very cautious about entering or investing in a situation that like right now isn't ideal for you. You know, like you don't, you don't date someone knowing you want to have kids, knowing they don' don't, hoping they, they'll change you. That, you know, and I think that's my point with you is I don't think you should invest that much more time if you don't have clarity about what this man really wants to do with his marriage because you don't want to invest months and then find out he's really not going to get divorced anytime soon. And that truthfully, he really likes his situation. He's comfortable getting along with his ex wife. They're actually pretty close. And he doesn't want to fuck up his bar and his investments in his house or whatever it is that might be intertwined. And he would rather just generally date casually with, you know, and be okay with dating people who are comfortable accepting his life. And I don't think you are in a position to accept his life. I think you want different things for yourself and I think you can, you know, vet this out a little bit more. And I think it's fine to keep dating him and learn more. But like right now the information that you have is very unclear at best. And signs point to him not being willing to get divorced anytime soon.

Taylor (26:39)

Yeah, I think that's a good, that's A good take. I think I was trying to. And that is why I wanted to talk to you because I was trying to figure out how basically the mindset to go into this with whether I was overthinking it or basically what to look out for. And I think that's a really good point is giving it a couple more months to get a feel for it but not wasting too much time if, if he's not giving any real concrete answers. He did say like I did. I pushed him a second time asking more clarifying questions. And he did say like they had decided to stay married two more years and that so the goal was to do it within like this year or so because it was like that first year after helped him in taxes, this year helped her. And he's like, so now we can.

Nick (27:23)

You know what, again, they may end up getting divorced. I just want you to understand that you do not need to accept his life outright and you have the right to say there's things I want. I think as a 37 year old woman or person, a 37 year old person dating, I think you need to have more clarity about what you want for your relationships and for yourself being in more intentional saying out loud to yourself. And eventually the people you date that like you really want to get married someday. And I don't think you should be afraid to put that out there pretty early. And then you should hope that discourages some people. You want to find out who doesn't want the same things you want. If you want to keep dating for fun and just fuck around, sure. Date people that like aren't very serious about what you're serious about, you know. But if you want to date with intention, then like you have a right to filter out some of the people who don't want what you want. And you can do that pretty early. Don't go into a dating situation hoping people change.

Taylor (28:24)

Sure, sure. I think what is nice about him is I've been able to communicate better with him about hard stuff. So I. What you're saying I feel like is very doable. He's been much easier to talk to about hard stuff than my ex was. So yeah, I think that helps me at least go in with eyes a little more open and kind of knowing what questions to ask because I really also wasn't sure what questions I can even ask.

Nick (28:48)

Some things you can ask whatever you want. And that's the thing I think, yeah, you, you're clearly have a little bit of hesitation and a little, you know. And I think you need to. The biggest thing you need to focus on, I think, in my opinion, is just understanding what you want. Come into this thing with a little bit more confidence and you have the right to say what you want. And listen. So many times in dating situations, we want to say the right thing, you know, because we want people to like us, we want to feel accepted. But honestly, when you really look at it pragmatically, sometimes saying the right thing is the wrong thing. Because saying the right thing is saying something that we don't really mean, we don't really believe in, but we're doing it or saying it because we want to make a good impression. We want to be accepted, we want to be liked. And then, you know, that's why people call it the honeymoon phase. Or when they say you go on a first date and people don't really meet you, they meet your representative, you know, and then all of a sudden, you know, you're six to 12 months into relationship and you're like, you're kind of different. The more yourself you can be and be comfortable with being rejected early on because you are willing to be yourself. You know, it might take a couple blows of the eagle. It might be a little like, you know, you might feel some fatigue at time because rejection can always be hard. Do you want to date someone for five and a half years again only to have to break up with them because ultimately are going to end up not giving you what you wanted. You know what I'm saying? But that's how you get yourself in situations like that. So you need to change as well. It's not just about finding someone else. It's about you recognizing. How did I get to that point where it took me five and a half years and I had to make up this whole plan to exit the relationship? That's something you need to reflect on and that you need to change about yourself. It's not about just finding someone different. Because the part of that that caused you to wait that long is the part of you that is maybe just not standing up for yourself as much as you should, not being confident in yourself to say, this is what I want, this is what I need. And if you're not able or willing to give to me, sad as that might make me feel, this isn't for me. And you have to be willing for someone to meet your standards in dating, too.

Taylor (30:46)

Yeah. And getting to the bottom of that before I'm very emotionally invested is also, I think, what you're trying to say too.

Nick (30:53)

Yeah, it's just it's just you're, you're definitely just kind of giving a general tone, which I think is very relatable for people that, you know, you don't want to step on their toes, you don't want to press, you don't want to be rude, you don't want to, you know, I don't want to ask questions that are, you know, but like list it's got to figure it out, you know, and we have, as we get older, we have less time to waste on, on people, you know, and you know, so it's just like how intentional.

Taylor (31:15)

He's an adult.

Nick (31:16)

Yeah, no, yeah, he can handle it. Exactly right. And also you can handle it too. You can handle finding out. That's because this is all about you being afraid to get an answer you don't want. Right. And that's why we don't ask questions is because sometimes we're afraid of the answer. And then we're afraid either I don't want to get that answer cause I don't want have to do something difficult like leave or I don't want to get an answer and make or have, or be rejected. I think my big takeaway for you is ask when you're out there dating, whether it's this guy or you move on with this guy is at least understand your basic non negotiables, your basic relationship goals. What do you really want for yourself? What's the type of relationship you want? And then early on in dating, you should find out pretty quickly whether that person's even capable of meeting those main goals because all the other stuff is inconsequential to your non negotiables or your main core values of what you want for a partner. And there are a lot of nice people and good guys and funny guys out there that still might not have the same core goals that you have for yourself when it comes to being in a relationship.

Taylor (32:21)

Yeah, I think it can be, I think sometimes when you don't want kids, it can be hard to pinpoint those goals because a lot of people like, oh, I want to get married and have kids and like build a family. One of the reasons I want to get married is so I could get a house with someone, like a mortgage with someone. I don't really want to do that outside of a marriage, but that just.

Nick (32:39)

Because like it'll help financially or, or you just don't want to.

Taylor (32:43)

I, I, I would rather go down, I'd rather go down the path where we're going to do every, you know, we're doing things together, and then we buy a home together. Not for me, personally. I can't afford one by myself. And I also don't want to just, like, date someone and get a house with them, but there's, like, no other thing tying us together. I think that's kind of crazy. So I. All I'm saying is that when I think about, like, when you say goals, I'm like, well, marriage is sure a goal, but it's hard to think of, like, bigger goals. And sometimes I wonder even if, like, is that just a petty goal? Because I don't want kids in a family, but I don't think it is. It just. That's why it's sometimes hard to pinpoint those big relationship goals with me.

Nick (33:23)

That makes sense. But, you know, sometimes when you meet the right person, I mean, clearly, listen, you have some kind of goal because you left your last relationship because ultimately he didn't want to. I think you have more goals than you realize. I think sometimes when you're in a relationship that you're really happy to be in, like, it also shifts your goals.

Taylor (33:39)

True, true.

Nick (33:41)

So I think it's okay that you keep hanging out with this guy, but I don't be afraid to get more information. I feel comfortable saying that you should get the answer from him sooner than you feel like you're ready or is fair. Because I think you have a tendency of. Of talking yourself out of confrontation.

Jessica (34:01)

All right.

Taylor (34:02)

I think that's pretty fair. That gives me at least some way to move forward. That's thoughtful. I was kind of. I feel like I did over. Do a lot of overthinking in my last relationship. And so some of this, I was trying to just relax and enjoy the kind of dating process with him.

Nick (34:21)

Yeah. And you can, right? Just because he is the first. I like. But. But just be careful that you're not lying to yourself and convince yourself, well, I'm just having fun and chill because the truth is, you're afraid to find out. Just.

Jessica (34:35)

That's good.

Nick (34:36)

Be careful.

Taylor (34:36)

Yeah, that makes sense. I can.

Nick (34:38)

I can do that. All right.

Taylor (34:40)

And I have, like, a pretty. I feel like I've been able to be upfront with him and stuff, so I think I can continue to do that and hopefully get the answers I need.

Nick (34:48)

All righty. Okay. Well, thanks for the call. I appreciate it.

Jessica (34:51)

Yeah.

Taylor (34:51)

Thank you so much for your time. It's great to meet you.

Nick (34:53)

Likewise.

Taylor (34:54)

Thank you.

Nick (34:55)

All right. All right. Good luck. And please give us an update if anything changes with him.

Taylor (34:59)

All right. I Will.

Nick (34:59)

All right, take care. Bye bye.

Taylor (35:02)

Bye.

Nick (35:03)

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Jessica (39:11)

Good. My Name's Jessica, I'm 26 and I'm wondering if I should break up with a guy that I want to marry.

Nick (39:18)

All right, well, why do you want to marry him and why do you think you need to break up with him?

Jessica (39:23)

When I first met him, we kind of had this really instant connection that just felt right. And I'm debating breaking up with him because it's been almost Five years since we've met, and we've had some back and forth, and now I'm kind of at this place where I'm going to be turning 27 soon, and I'm just kind of getting ready to settle down. And there's a couple things that I'm a little bit concerned about in terms of how he is in a relationship.

Nick (39:57)

Like what?

Jessica (39:58)

His problem solving abilities aren't really the best. He tends to want to run away when it's time to talk about things that might be bothering me. I wouldn't say run away fully. It's just that he kind of avoids the situation, and then I'm kind of just stuck either having to put things under the rug, which does not work well for me, or kind of do all the mental labor.

Nick (40:26)

Okay. I do want to point out that when I said, why do you want to marry him? And then, why do you think you need to break up with them? The only thing you said about why you wanted to marry him is when you met, there was some great chemistry.

Jessica (40:40)

Yeah. Okay, that's a good point. I definitely think that there is more beyond that. I think that initially when I met him, I had that feeling of, like, is this the person that I'm gonna marry? And I don't know, it's just like the when, you know, you know, feeling that people talk about. So I experienced that. And of course, beyond that, like, as the years have gone on, he is one of the best people that I know, and he is a wonderful person. There are a lot of traits in him that I see that I want in a husband.

Nick (41:12)

Like what?

Jessica (41:13)

He's very hardworking, so that's a great provider, which I really respect. He is very loving. He does little things for me a lot of the time that make me feel special. Honestly. There's not too much, like, we really don't argue much. I feel like our relationship. Anytime that we are fighting, it's like I feel like I'm kind of fighting by myself, talking to myself, I guess. And it's more him just listening, saying that he'll do better and wanting to do better, but I don't really feel like there's, like, skin in the game, I guess. Like, it's not like he's really, like, investing into it and, like, diving deep with me on these issues.

Nick (41:50)

Do you have a. Do you have a very specific argument or issue that, like, you felt like you were ex. You know, communicating to him and.

Jessica (42:02)

Yeah, I could give a good example. Recently, I had a company party, and I wanted it was. All of us were gonna go, all of me and my company, along with all of our significant others, we're gonna go away for the weekend. And he was supposed to come. And he never really marked it on the calendar or anything like that. And then we, I, I brought it up multiple times, reminding him. And then when, right before that weekend was about to happen, he had something come up with his family. And it wasn't, it was, it was a party for his family. It was a holiday party. And he just was like, oh, this is going on this date. And I said, that's the same weekend as my company party and it's really important that you're there for me. And he was like, oh, well, I don't really know what to do. This is like a every year type of deal. And it's really important that I'm there. It's like, you know, it's a big deal for my family that I'm there. And so, I mean, this is not me too, because I just said, okay, well, then I guess you can go to that. But then I had a lot of feelings about it that I wanted to keep on bringing up and talking about. And I just kind of was saying, I'm not cool with this. It's kind of like, makes me feel like you're choosing other things over me, which kind of tends to happen. I feel like I get put on the back burner a lot of the times. Like, it's like, oh, no worries, she'll just kind of figure it out and then I'll have to get over it a little bit. And so I asked him if we could talk about it. I think three times I gave him, I gave him a few days in between each time. And each time he was either like, I just had a really long day at work, I'm really tired, or can we just not do this right now? It's kind of late. And then I, I guess, like right before I left, I was just like, this really needs to be talked about. And his response was just like, I'm going to have a lot of good things to say to you after the weekend done. So, like after the fact, like after.

Nick (43:59)

It'S all finished and regardless of the details of the story. But that last part I'm hearing happens a lot.

Jessica (44:08)

Yes.

Nick (44:10)

So whatever it is you guys are fighting about or in conflict about or not on the same page, because honestly, like, the details of that story, I mean, I could ask more questions and I could sit here and be like, well, you know, I kind of get hit where he's coming from or not get where he's coming from, it doesn't really matter. Right. You had a point of view. He had a point of view. Which event was more, you know, more important, you know, who knows? Right. Like, to him, obviously, that was a. An important event. You wanted him to be there for you. Vice versa. I don't know, maybe he's a bad planner. Not that, not that organized. You were frustrated for whatever reason.

Jessica (44:43)

Yeah.

Nick (44:44)

But the point is, your frustration really comes down to he never really. He just kind of nicely blows you off and waits for you to give up.

Jessica (44:55)

Yeah, exactly. For sure. That's what it is. And I do notice that trend. You're. You're definitely right spot on there. And I think that even like, it's like, it's almost like he's really happy when I just can, like, ignore things with him. Like, if it's like, if I can just get over it on my own. Like, and I just like, keep, keep it pushing. Like, it's like it almost makes him. He's like, ah, like relief. I don't have to go into any conflict resolution, I guess. And I feel like that's a part of relationship. Like, I don't like to fight. Obviously, I don't. I don't want that either. I don't want to feel upset, but I feel like that's a really big strength in a relationship. It's what brings you back together when you can solve problems well together. And I'm sure I know that further down the line, when I have kids one day, I don't really want to be dealing with a partner who is just expecting me to either figure it all out on my own or if there's something that is going on between my partner and I don't want it to be like, okay, well, let's just put that to the side. Because there's so many other more important things than your feelings. And that's kind of the gist of how I feel often, you know, like, feelings aren't that big of a problem because he's also a little bit like, of a workaholic too. So it's like for him, it's like him putting his work first. A lot happens, and then it's like I'm just kind of expected again on that same front to just like, step back and just be like, okay, that's fine when you have time for me. And it makes me feel desperate. And I don't love that feeling. Of course I want to feel chosen as well, so where do you think.

Nick (46:27)

You fall in his list of priorities? I mean, he would say I don't, I don't. I don't care what he says. I want to. I'm curious how you feel.

Jessica (46:36)

I feel like I'm probably. I would say I'm after work. I would say I'm number two.

Nick (46:41)

What percentage out of a hundred do you think work is a priority versus where do you.

Jessica (46:48)

I'd probably say work is like 70. I probably take up 30.

Nick (46:54)

He only has two priorities in life.

Jessica (46:56)

Yeah, just working. No, obviously he has. He's very close with his family. He's not really like, he. We do have like a couple close friends, but he's not really. He also started his sobriety journey a year, almost a year and a half ago. So he's been kind of starting that fresh. So it's like that's also another factor, I think.

Nick (47:22)

But what were. Did he have a big drinking problem or did he just.

Jessica (47:26)

Yeah, yeah, was drink. It was just a drinking problem. It was kind of like pulling him off from the things that he wanted in life that were important to him. That, I mean, he obviously, of course wants to settle down, wants all that stuff too. He wanted to work towards those goals. But that starts with being able to take care of yourself first, of course.

Nick (47:48)

How did he get sober? Did he do that? He go cold turkey? Did he tend to 12 step?

Jessica (47:53)

No, he went cold turkey. He's. He can be a little extreme. He's just like, I'm done. And that was it. And he just sees like, my life is so much better. Everything's great. Also, him and I with the on and off stuff that we have had. I met him, like I said, about almost five years ago. We were quite a bit younger when we met and he would do this cycle where it was like three months of sobriety and I was always in his life when he was like going through that, where it was just like he wanted to like not be going out and partying and hanging out with a bunch of like, just the wrong crowd. And then he would kind of fall off and get back into that and then circle back around. So I feel like I have some built up stuff where I just feel like I'm just like always there. Like I've always kind of just been available, which I'm like, now I'm kind of starting to regret that. But there's nothing I can do to change the past. And like this last year and a half, we've been together fully while he's been Sober. So that has been, like, the beginning of our. I feel like, the first time we've actually taken a real chance at it for this last year and a half. And we live together and everything.

Nick (49:02)

Real chance at what?

Jessica (49:04)

Just, like, being together. Because before, I don't really feel like it was taken seriously by him. He's been in my life for five years, but it was on and off for every three months. And then we took, like, a big break. I dated another person.

Nick (49:17)

Was it his choice or your choice to take the break?

Jessica (49:19)

It's always been my choice. I just say, like, I can't do this anymore, and I just, like, leave. And he never fights for it, really. It's just like, I understand if you're unhappy. Like, you're unhappy, and I get it. So that doesn't really feel like my choice either, sometimes.

Nick (49:36)

Yeah, it doesn't sound like it's your choice. You know, you break. Yeah. You were doing it hoping to get a reaction you didn't get, and then he didn't fight for you, so you're like, I guess I'll date someone. Maybe that'll make him jealous.

Jessica (49:49)

Yes. I feel like I've done a lot of things like that where it's like. I feel like he's kind of been like my kryptonite, I guess. Where it's just, like, I just. I can't. Like, I don't know why. I just. I. I feel like I put myself in positions where it's like, that was either like. Like I hurt somebody else because I'm trying to get over him in the process, or like, I just have, like, embarrassed myself trying to do something that.

Nick (50:12)

Like, what brings you guys back together when you took the break?

Jessica (50:15)

He always would reach out and, like, we both, like, would always say how our connection is very special. And it's just, like, we are very good partners. Like, I feel that we balance each other really well, and he does ground me a lot. We end up missing each other, and he'll. When he reaches out, it's just like. It's very hard for me to not want to step back into it. And. Yeah, I don't know. I guess that.

Nick (50:39)

Have you ever broached therapy with him? I mean, I'm. Can I already assume what his answer was?

Jessica (50:45)

But, yeah, no, actually, we do have a therapist. We go to couples therapy together.

Nick (50:49)

You go to couples therapy?

Jessica (50:51)

We do, yeah.

Nick (50:52)

Does that work? Does. Do you guys get anything out of it?

Jessica (50:55)

Yeah, well, we first went because of all this stuff with the back and forth. I kind of Had a lot happen. Well, I got pregnant twice with him.

Nick (51:04)

With him?

Jessica (51:05)

Yeah. By him.

Nick (51:06)

Yeah.

Jessica (51:07)

And while the first one I missed carried and he was not really able to be there for me that time. And then the second one we weren't together, I had like just a little bit of. I freaked out by the reaction that I got from family members the first time around that it happened. And I like, knee jerk reaction, had an abortion. And I do feel like I regret that because that's something that I've always wanted in my life, is to be a mother. So I just, I feel like that was really hard for me to get past those two things. And so. Thank you. Yeah. But we did go to therapy together to get past that because I just kept on bringing it back up and I was just like, I just. I don't think I can move past this and feel like I can have this trust with you and like that you actually like.

Caller (51:59)

Like.

Jessica (51:59)

I didn't believe he loved me fully, but I was like, why am I with you then? I don't understand. Like, I feel like, like weak in that sense where I just was like, I with you, but I don't feel like you actually love me, but I hope you do. And so then I, through therapy, I did find that, like, I know that he does love me. How do you want to be with me?

Nick (52:20)

How do you know that?

Jessica (52:21)

I mean, a lot of his actions, like I said, like our day to day is really. It is great. He does make genuine efforts and tries hard to show me that he loves me daily. And his words. And he's very like, affectionate towards me and not like in a sexual way, just like, like I can, like in an adoring way.

Nick (52:40)

Have you talked with your couples therapists about the issue you're calling in about, which is essentially like, he doesn't really want to engage in any type of conflict resolution with you or communicate, you know, or just hear you out and deal with some stuff as opposed to feeling like you're. He just kind of like avoids you, waits for you to get over it and. And then you feel kind of like you kind. You have to convince your. It's because it sounds like you have to convince yourself to get over things that you're not really over. You bury it and then it just kind of sits there and like you're. I don't know, you're like, I don't know, I guess, whatever. And then. Have you talked with your therapist about that? With him?

Jessica (53:17)

Yes, we have. Yeah, we have spoken about it a Little bit. But it's mostly around the issue of him prioritizing work, because when it's brought up, it's like he's just too tired to deal with things. When it comes down to it, like, it's just. Like, it's always he's too tired. So my therapist has, like, tried to. Or our therapist has tried to suggest, like, just him making, like, setting certain time aside to be intentional. And that's when we started to do more, like, date nights. And it's just the discussion. Sometimes it just feels like when it's too heavy for him, it does hit a point where it's just, like, too much to break through. And, like, I don't know. I guess we haven't really nailed down that specific topic with my. With our therapist, which I would. That's a good thing for us to focus on and bring up. I feel like I feel a little bit helpless about it. Like, I just don't know if that part of him can change. So I think maybe I'm just scared to bring that up too. Well, I mean, I don't really know if it would be.

Nick (54:16)

You called in.

Jessica (54:17)

Sorry, go ahead.

Nick (54:18)

Well, I'm just saying you called in debating whether you should break up with him if. If this part doesn't get better.

Jessica (54:23)

Yeah.

Nick (54:24)

So what do you have to lose?

Jessica (54:26)

True. Yeah, that's true.

Nick (54:27)

Like, how seriously are you thinking he might not be your guy?

Jessica (54:31)

I feel like this is kind of where I go back and forth, because I feel like I have done a lot of condensing myself of things in our relationships. So I feel like in my mind, I feel like he is the person for me, and I don't really feel like it's that much of a percentage that debates if he is or not. But when I get to the point where I feel frustrated, like he's not participating, I'm like, fully out the door. So it's like, I don't really know how to gauge if that's a lot of me is contemplating it or if it's just like, something that is, like, a really important thing for me to. Obviously, obviously it is an important thing for me to extend to change within our relationship dynamic. But, yeah, I'm not really sure how to gauge.

Nick (55:10)

Do you feel like much. Do you feel like he's more of your boyfriend or your partner? And by partner, I mean, like, the, you know, being a partner, like a teammate. Do you feel like he's a teammate?

Jessica (55:21)

No. That's a good. You know, the thing that you always say where it's like you have a boyfriend who wants the benefits of a girlfriend but isn't really interested in being a boyfriend. A boyfriend?

Nick (55:30)

Yeah.

Jessica (55:31)

Yes. That's kind of how I feel like it is sometimes with him. Like, I do feel like it's more. He is more like that than active partner who wants to, like. Because he can do all the other things. Like, I mean, obviously, like, this is a little different, but it's like with taking out the trash or, like, picking me up from the airport. Like, things like, I know I can rely on him for certain, like, physical things that I need.

Nick (55:56)

Sure.

Jessica (55:57)

A partner for. I mean, emotionally. I can also rely on him for, like, my own stuff if I was talking to him about it. But when it's him and I. It's like, if it involves him having to, like, dig deep, it's like he's just like, he. And he knows that he avoids that with everybody, too. It's not just me. But. Yeah. That's not really where I have feel like he's, like, stepping up.

Nick (56:20)

Well, listen, you know, you've been through a lot with this guy, clearly, and you're clearly conflicted. I guess what I would say to you is, you know, who he is. This is who he is. You've been with him for five years. You have tried all sorts of things to try to get through this guy. But he is. And correct me if I'm wrong about any of this, unbelievably, you know, consistent at least, or, you know, stubbornly himself. And you've tried all sorts of ways to try to tweak and adjust this part of him with very little success. Would that. Does that feel accurate?

Jessica (57:00)

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Because there has been successful. Right. It's kind of. It's kind of little compared to.

Nick (57:08)

Well, I mean, success around this particular topic. Not success in the sense that, like, I mean, he's currently a boyfriend, but.

Jessica (57:18)

Right.

Nick (57:18)

You know, and you're in one of these situations where it's a challenge. Right. Because, like, ultimately, you know, it doesn't sound like he's like some toxic asshole or you can actually point out some things that you really like about him. I do think it's interesting. Again, even though you did eventually articulate things, you know, it sounded like, you know, this guy just does it for you. Like, he. He. You know, but, like, there's a lot of chemistry there. But, like, you know, there are some significant aspects of the relationship that do seem to be missing for you and you. Sounds like throughout the entirety of your relationship, you know, you've had a hard time letting go of just how. Of the chemistry, the intangible, which I get. Like, that's, that's hard to find with people. So it's hard to let that go. But there's a difference between dating someone for a period of time or, you know, I guess there's a difference between dating someone in your 20s and, and marrying them for the rest of your life. And which is why I think a lot of people, like, have a hard time sustaining marriages and relationships these days because they, they get married for reasons that have nothing to do with keeping a marriage going.

Jessica (58:27)

Exactly.

Nick (58:28)

And when they ask, you know, when they get married, like, most people stay in relationships because of how they met. Because of, like you said, like, we meet someone, especially in your case, we meet someone that, like that boy that, that meeting them really, you know, I bet you vividly remember how you met. I bet you like at times telling the story or at least fantasizing or reminiscing about how you met in that period of time. And I'm guessing when you guys met, you made your, you know, a lot of promises to yourself. This is a man going to marry or, you know, whatever, stuff like that. And, you know, we don't want to internally, we don't want to be wrong. We don't want to feel like we're full of, you know, and sometimes we hold on to how we met someone and we hold on to these kind of promises we've made with very little information about someone, someone's character or how they are in relationships. And then we date them for a period of time, and then all of a sudden we're like, well, I've been for five years and it's like this. But like, very little about why they're in the relationship has to do with how that person makes them feel day in and day out. So, you know, it's. It's not a clear choice for you because, you know, I am, I understand there's a lot of history there, and I understand he sounds like a pretty good guy. And it's like, you know, you. The devil you know is better than the devil you don't, you know, and you're like, you, you've also dated other people and you still kind of of went back to him. And, and in your mind you're thinking, you know, that kind of justifies me coming back. I tried, I tried to date other people, but you might have to, you might have to make a decision that you leave without dating anyone else for a period of time. I don't know. But I. I will say this. The thing that you think is a problem in your relationship is a problem, and the feeling that you feel alone in your relationship, is that fair to say?

Jessica (60:14)

Yeah, that's fair. That's a. That's something that I tell him a lot when I'm going. When we're going through certain things like, that I need to talk through. I do end up telling him. I feel really alone in our relationship right now, and I feel disconnected. Like, sometimes, you know, when it's. When it comes to that, and that's where usually it drives from. It's like I feel disconnected. And then he's just like, okay, I don't. Like. It's almost like I feel like an annoying little sister sometimes. And it just makes me feel so uncomfortable because I'm just like, this isn't how I should feel. Like, I should feel like I'm.

Nick (60:49)

It's not. It's not. It's probably not going to get much better. It hasn't gotten better. I mean, you could certainly. I would certainly like, you know, try it out in couples therapy if you're still going to couples therapy with them, but eventually you're gonna have to.

Jessica (61:02)

He didn't say that he would see our therapist on his own, too now, which I don't know if that would help the case, because I know. I. I mean, I know that he does want to work it out and he wants to be with me, but I know that it's. For him, it's just like this emotional.

Nick (61:21)

It's.

Jessica (61:22)

It's the emotional intelligence that he never learned to have because through his life.

Nick (61:30)

Sure. But also, like, I don't know. He's not. I don't mean I don't know him at all, but doesn't sound like an idiot. And a lot of what you're saying isn't a matter of. Has nothing to do with emotional intelligence. It's just a willingness to be there for your partner. I'm too tired from work. Isn't a lack of emotional intelligence. It's just like, he doesn't care enough or he's just used to you, I feel like. Or is this used to you giving up?

Jessica (62:00)

Hear that?

Nick (62:00)

Yeah. Yeah. I think I do feel like I.

Jessica (62:03)

Need to hear that sometimes because I think that, like, I feel like I want to hear the truth no matter what, always. And I just, like, I feel like this means you just don't care, and that's okay. But just say that, you know, like, I don't want to. I Don't want to pretend like, it's because. Oh, it's. It really has nothing to do with the fact that, like, I don't care. It's just I really am tired. It's like, even if I am so tired and I can barely, like, keep my eyes open because I'm just so exhausted because I've had the most draining day, I would never just say, oh, you're feeling this way. Like, you just continue to feel this way so that I can feel comfortable with how I want to feel right now. Just go to sleep and, like, on my time, we'll talk when I'm ready. Because I just, like, that just feels so unfair to me. And it feels like you just don't care. And, like, let's just call it what it is.

Nick (62:54)

I think a lot of times we all like to make excuses for our partners for their shortcomings. Especially if we've tried and failed, the next step is just kind of make excuses for them. And I do think in a lot of cases, women like to make excuses for their male partners a lot. And in your case, you know, like, you know the stereotype that women are more emotionally mature than men and women, yada, yada, yada, I think a lot of times women will play into those stereotypes and then make excuses for their boyfriends and chalk it up to, like, emotional immaturity. And he just needs to do the work, and he's just been suppressed because he's a man and toxic masculinity. It's like, I don't know, maybe he just doesn't give a. You know, like, maybe.

Jessica (63:39)

Right, right.

Nick (63:41)

You know, like, I don't think he's all that emotionally stunted. He sees you, like, coming to him and saying, let's resolve this. And he's like, not right now, babe. And you let it go. You've already broken up with them, and it didn't work.

Jessica (63:55)

Right.

Nick (63:56)

I think that's probably why you feel.

Jessica (63:58)

Like the boy who cried wolves.

Nick (63:59)

Yeah.

Jessica (64:00)

Yeah, I do. I told. I really feel like the boy who cried wolf because it's like, I'm like, I'm done never doing this again.

Nick (64:06)

And, like, so maybe right now, maybe your tone is. Maybe your tone should be like, stop accepting apologies for things he's apologized multiple times for.

Jessica (64:20)

Yeah.

Nick (64:21)

And so when you voice a frustration and he's like, oh, I'm sorry, just say, I don't want your apologies. I want you to care. And when he says, I do care, then you say, I need you to show me that you care. Not just say that you care because you say you care all the time and then you show me you don't. What I want is to deal with shit. You don't like to deal with shit. And I am tired of dealing with our shit on my own.

Jessica (64:50)

Okay.

Nick (64:50)

You know, that's good. And you make me feel like a nag because you just. You don't care. You just don't care. And stop calling him avoidant or whatever. I don't know, maybe, but like, whatever. He doesn't care.

Jessica (65:04)

Yeah, okay.

Nick (65:06)

Or, you know, he cares just enough. You know? You know, I don't say he doesn't care, but he clearly cares about you. Right? But at the end of the day, what you're asking for is not that complicated because you're not even, you know, you're just. You're just asking for him to like, take the time to participate and talk with you about a frustration you have and just work through it.

Jessica (65:28)

And it's. I'm honestly, I do not. Not that it. I don't think it matters how I come across when we are arguing because I do feel like in moments I have. Right. A right to give set. But I don't really. I'm not hard to talk to. Like, I want to resolve the issue. I don't want to get into some big fight. I don't think anyone really does. But I feel like that's what's frustrating the most to me is it's just like, it's so easily. And then he gets frustrated when he's like, why are you upset? Like, after days and days of me calmly asking, hey, can we speak about this? Can we talk about this, please? Like, I really, like, this is bothering me. It's like. And then once I've been kind of put off for multiple days, then it's like, what. What's wrong? I don't understand. It's like, well, I'm. Now I'm frustrated. Now I'm like, emotionally, like, I'm crying. I'm. Whatever. Because it's just like, I'm like, do you. What?

Nick (66:24)

I mean, I'm curious. Have you. Have you referred to him as your best friend before?

Jessica (66:29)

Funny ass. Yeah, I mean, I guess so. But I. He is one of my best friends, but he's not my very best friend.

Nick (66:39)

Because I'm glad you know that. Because, like, I'm guessing there are other people out there who know you better than he does.

Jessica (66:46)

100. Yeah. Yeah.

Nick (66:49)

And the fact that you can say that 100. Like, the guy you've been dating with for five years. You've been pregnant with twice for different reasons. Those pregnancies didn't proceed. Both of them, whether it's a miscarriage or an abortion, are incredibly emotional experiences and experiences that I can safely guess. He doesn't really totally even know what you went through in either of those experiences. And if he does, most of that is a result of dragging him to therapy.

Jessica (67:25)

Yeah.

Nick (67:26)

Do you think he's definitely. And how much about. And how much about those experiences, do you think he's still completely unaware of. Of what you went through?

Jessica (67:33)

Yeah, I think a lot.

Nick (67:35)

And how. And are there other people who know better?

Jessica (67:37)

Oh, for sure. Yeah. My best friend. My best friend that I've been best friends with since childhood has a really hard time. She's come around and like, he has grown along.

Nick (67:48)

Who do you think his best friend is?

Jessica (67:51)

Me.

Nick (67:51)

Yeah, that. That's. And that doesn't surprise me. It does not surprise me that he actually probably thinks of you as his best friend. Best friend. Subjective. We all can have different. Definite difference of what that means. But like people who really know who we are, people that we have given the opportunity to get to know us without, you know, and accept us for all of our strengths and weaknesses. You're his best friend because you've been willing to be his best friend. And he's not your best friend because he hasn't been willing to yours.

Jessica (68:18)

I guess that's interesting that you brought that up. I definitely. That's a point that I was thinking of not too long ago. I was just thinking of how he does always tell me, like, you're my best friend. And I told my sister. I was just like, I just don't feel like he's mine, though.

Nick (68:35)

Have you ever told him that?

Jessica (68:36)

I have Such great. No, I haven't. And that's on me for sure. I usually just tell him, yeah, like, you're my best friend, too.

Nick (68:43)

I think that really true. Okay, well, stop lying to him.

Jessica (68:47)

Okay.

Nick (68:47)

I don't mean, you know, you're also lying to yourself a little bit. But I don't mean, you know, it's like. But that might hurt him. And I don't mean, like, I mean that in a good way.

Jessica (68:55)

Yeah.

Nick (68:56)

You know, the only thing that's going to save this relationship is you're going to get through to him somehow. So stop telling him what he wants to hear. Stop placating him, you know, stop trying to not ruffle his feathers and just be honest with him about how you feel about your relationship. Like, what do you have to lose at this point. Point. And when you say things like, you're my best friend, you can be like, I know, but, you know, I've been thinking about it. You're not mine, and you're not mine because, like, there are other people out there who just know me better than you do. And they know me better because, like, they took the time to care. And you don't care. Like, I'm your best friend because I care. I've. I've been willing to be your best friend, and you're just. You're not my best friend because you haven't been mine. You haven't been there for me. You just haven't. Like, you've been okay at times, but there are people out there who are. And I want the man I marry to be my best friend. And I think a lot of people, we like to say, I'm gonna be my best friend. Well, you know, your best friend should know you better than most people.

Jessica (69:57)

I feel like relationships, for me, like, my family and my friendships, like, I. That's something that I put so much effort and time into because it matters so much to me, and I have the best support system. And so it's hard because it's like. I feel like that should make sense in the area of my partner, too, and it just doesn't. And, yeah, that is hard because I'm like. I just really don't want to. I do feel like we have so many good parts about our relationship, and it's so hard for me to, like, get that out of my head, But I feel like I have to just be so honest. That is the most important part of who I am is the relationships I have. And so it has to make sense. Like, he should be my best friend. You're right.

Nick (70:41)

The good doesn't make up for the bad. And there can be a lot of good in relationships, and it doesn't mean they're your person. So, you know, like, when you're going through that kind of, oh, well, I like this, and I like that. That all might be true. But if your constant feeling about him in the relationship is a negative one, that. That tells you something. If you're more unhappy than happy when thinking about him and the relationship, that. That tells you something. If you're constantly just feeling disconnected and alone in your relationship, that tells you something. And if the man that you've been with for five years isn't your best friend, that should tell you something.

Jessica (71:16)

I definitely haven't really thought about it, like. Like, that before because I do think that I value. Because of the value of my relationships that I just. With my family and friends, I think that it would just be hard to come close to, like, for any guy. Like, I just don't. I've never really had a significant other where I feel like they're my best friend, they know me inside and out. I don't really feel like I've had any guy really take the time to get to know me super well. And I've always been worried about being with somebody who is with me because of what I can give to them versus, like, because I feel like I will give like everything I have into a relationship. And I just think that, like, obviously, I mean, most people too, I guess, but I just think that sometimes to maybe I overextend a little bit. And then I just think that, like, I'm afraid of that being taken advantage of, but I'm letting that happen is what I have to.

Nick (72:18)

If you took out how you guys met and all of the investment you've put in this relationship, what would you think you have?

Jessica (72:27)

When you say all the investment, do you mean like all of our everything, like, time spent?

Nick (72:33)

I mean, I don't know most people. I'm curious how you think about that. But a lot of people in your position, it's. It's hard to walk away from something you've put a lot of work into.

Jessica (72:43)

Yeah. You know, like so much positive change I think, through our relationship and growth. Like, although, like might not look like all that much, it's keeps on getting better and better in all these areas. So I guess if I took all that out, I don't think. I don't know if I would be in the relationship if it was just like, this is a brand new. Like, this was a situationship. If I met him how he was now and I was coming up with these issues and I'm my age now because it's like, Obviously me at 22 is very different than me at 27. And I think that if I was just looking at that for what it was and not knowing anything about him and just seeing that, I'd say, yeah, I'm. I'm good. I would like someone with more ability to be there for me more.

Nick (73:33)

So, I mean, that's to tell you something. I mean, history is not nothing, but it's not. You don't have kids, you're not married. You know, there might be a time in your place in your life where the history gets you through it, you know, but like, before because, like, the truth is, whoever you marry, you're gonna. You're gonna deal with some shit's gonna happen. I don't know what. But I promise you this. You know, even the person that you marry, let's assume that you, him or someone else. But, like, you eventually get married, and when. The moment you get married, you feel like, I really love this person, you know, maybe you figure shit out with him, maybe you break up and you find someone else. But let's say the moment you get married, it feels so fucking right and good and exactly what you hoped for for yourself. Even if. That. If you're lucky enough to be in that position, I promise you something's going to happen in that relationship and you're going to think to yourself, I can't believe this ever would happen to me or us. It will. I promise. And it doesn't mean you guys can't get through it. Most, a lot of people do get through. Everyone deals with shit like that. I don't know what that shit is going to be. Might be something that you. Cause he causes. Something that's just unavoidable. Maybe just like life happens, something happens, God forbid, with a child or a parent. I don't know, Right? Money, who knows? Life fucking happens, and you have to deal with it. Right now you have someone. We're like, when that happens, you're gonna be totally alone. So listen, I. I don't know if breaking up with him is the right answer, but I do think, starting now, you need to just be more direct about how you feel about him in this relationship. And you need to stop trying to fight for this relationship by yourself.

Jessica (75:17)

Okay.

Nick (75:18)

Do you feel like he's afraid of losing you?

Jessica (75:20)

Yeah. He tells me, like, life would be really scary without you.

Nick (75:24)

Maybe there's hope, you know, but, like, he needs some kind. Like something is not connecting the dots. And I don't doubt that he might be. You might have to talk about. I think that friendship comment might be worth. I wouldn't even bring it up in couples therapy. I would maybe this is, I think, bring it up in couples therapy. Good idea. And I would bring up the fact that, like, I'm seriously thinking about leaving this relationship because I feel alone. I don't want to, and I don't want to lose you. But, like, I do feel like this is a person that I realize is not my best friend. And they're not my best friend because, like, they haven't really that been that interested in being my best friend. And he might say, well, I Am. What do you mean by that? You're like. Well, because, you know, Becky, Molly, and. And Erica, they all know. They. They. You don't know this about, like, I. You don't. There's, like, a lot of things that you don't know about me. And you don't know about me because when I come to you and try to share things with you, you tell me you're too tired. You're never interested in hearing about what I'm feeling. You. You. You act as if it's constantly an inconvenience to you. And like, there are other people in my life who don't make me feel that way. And I don't think I should be in a relationship with someone who makes me feel that way. And I've tried endlessly to try to fix that. So, like, I'm. I'm pretty much at the end of my rope.

Jessica (76:44)

I like it. I think that feels. That feels good. I wanna. I definitely wanna be honest about that. And I think that that resonates a lot for me. And I think that that would be shocking for him to hear. And like you said, not in a way that it's like, I want to hurt him. It's just in a way that might make him understand a little bit more of, like, how he feels about me is not the same way I feel about him, which should raise a black for him, you know?

Nick (77:13)

All right. Was this helpful?

Jessica (77:15)

Yes, it was very helpful. I appreciate you.

Nick (77:19)

All right, well, sorry you're going.

Jessica (77:21)

Appreciate your show, too.

Nick (77:23)

Oh, well, thank you for saying. Listen, it's. You're in a tough spot, because I get it. Like, I. Sometimes it's a lot easier if he was just a giant piece of. Or whatever. You've been through a lot together, and there's a lot you love about him, and there's a lot of good in this relationship, but you shouldn't feel like this way most of the time.

Jessica (77:41)

That is something to ponder. My mom. My mom will always tell me that. She's like, you just keep coming back to this, you know, Because I call her like. And I feel like. It's like. I feel like I'm going insane sometimes with how much I go back and forth, because it's like, as soon as this comes up where I feel alone, I'm like, I want to leave. And it's like, I tell and I don't. I do voice it to him every time. I'm like, I want to leave.

Nick (78:03)

Yeah. But now they're like. I feel like idle threats. Yeah.

Jessica (78:05)

I'M the boy who I. Yeah, I shouldn't do that. Like. And I. Because I don't know if I really fully minute mean it. And it's like now I'm sitting here talking to you about it. I'm trying to get clear on if I mean that or not. And I feel, I feel better about knowing now. Like, I've tried to calm down from that and saying like, I'm gonna leave all the time and threatening that because it's like, it's not helpful. And if I really mean that, like, I want to only I just want to do it through my actions and just say, hey, here's what's happening. I'm leaving. If that's what's going to happen. I don't want to have to be like, seeing if I can get a reaction.

Nick (78:38)

I'll leave you with this. But something I had to learn on my own and something I've said and when I've done questions with Nick, I think there's language to, to the effect in my book. But if you break it all down at its core, people who get back together, they. With people they have broken up with, it's mostly out of a lack of patience. At the end of the day, we break up with people because we think we can do better. And I don't mean like from an ego standpoint. It means like, if you decide to break up with them, you're doing it because you certainly hope, but. And I'm banking on the fact that you can find someone who's more emotionally willing to be in the relationship with you. And you've tried that before, but then you got back together and you didn't get back together because, like, love. You got back together because you dated one other guy and that didn't work out. And then he was available and waiting and you're like, well, okay, I guess I'll go back to him. And you lacked the patience to see it through. You, you missed him. Who you dated in between, like, was actually worse than he was. So it was like, all right, he's worse. You have, you know, and so a product of you guys being together is your lack of patience in believing in you, in what you deserve. That's just a fact because something caused you to end that relationship in the past. Breaking up with people that we care about is. Is a very difficult thing to do. And yet you got to that place. So it wasn't a mistake. There was a reason. It wasn't like out of just some sort of like, flip it decision. We Break up with people for valid reasons. Like, I don't really think there's mistakes. I think there's just we lost patience and list. And sometimes people break up and it's, you know, high school sweethearts or, you know, sometimes it's good to break up, and sometimes we get a clearer idea. But the end of the day, whoever broke up with someone thought they could do better, and maybe they were wrong. Sometimes we realize we were wrong. But in your case, I think it's more a lack of patience.

Jessica (80:41)

I agree with that. I definitely. I've never been alone either, which is like, I've always gone from relationship to relationship. And this is like.

Nick (80:49)

And this guy is your big kryptonite. He's your. He's the guy that you just does it for you and just fucks you up a little bit. And sometimes that fucking you up is kind of toxic, sexy and fun all at the same time. But, like, yeah, like, you know, he. He is a bit of kryptonite. And there is a constant theme in this relationship. And if you don't want to be the boy who cried wolf, don't be. If you decide to leave the relationship, it's not going to be easy. You're going to miss him. You're going. It's going to break your heart. You're going to want to come back to him and. And taking him back again. God forbid, if you were to do that again, would. I would hope that would be him truly fighting and showing and him actually doing shit on his own and getting there. You know, like, he does. He hasn't changed yet. So if you were to break up with them a month later, like, it's not because he changed. That's the thing. He is choosing not to do things about it. Right. And so often when people break up with someone and then it's like, oh, my God, I'll finally do the thing you asked me to do. They're not doing it because they change. They're doing it because you force their hand.

Jessica (81:49)

That's. Yeah. Like desperation just to get back.

Nick (81:52)

Yeah. So just some things to think about. All right.

Jessica (81:56)

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Nick (81:58)

All right, well, keep us posted. We'd love to know what you end up doing.

Jessica (82:01)

Okay.

Nick (82:02)

All right.

Jessica (82:02)

Okay.

Nick (82:04)

All right, take care.

Jessica (82:05)

I will.

Nick (82:05)

All right.

Jessica (82:06)

All right, bye.

Nick (82:08)

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Caller (86:31)

Hi, I'm Danielle. I'm 24 and my question is how do I date as a 24 year old who's never been in a relationship?

Nick (86:37)

Okay, why do you feel like you don't know how I Guess it's more.

Caller (86:42)

Of a general anxiety and fear around dating.

Nick (86:45)

Okay.

Caller (86:46)

I found it hard to meet people in person.

Nick (86:51)

Okay.

Caller (86:51)

And I'm on the dating apps. I'm on Hinge, but that's where the fear comes in. I cannot meet up with someone from Hinge. I'm so scared.

Nick (86:59)

Okay. All right, so I. I don't mean to laugh, but where your. Your. Your fear. Your fears, are they coming? I mean, listen, as a woman.

Jessica (87:07)

Yeah.

Nick (87:08)

There are some things you have to worry about that most men maybe don't. Right. Your actual physical safety. There. There is that. That being said, I think there's a lot of good, safe men out there, and you just have to be smart about your choices and situations you put yourself in that you can. You can maybe conquer this fear. But that aside, outside of, like, you know, just general, hey, I'm a woman dating, dating men, and. And I need to be mindful of my safety. Where are your other anxiety and fears coming from?

Caller (87:36)

Honestly? So I've kind of just recently started taking Hinge, like, more seriously. Before, it was kind of just like, like, seeing what's out there. And I never really had any real intention for that fear. Like, I was always like, I don't want to be meeting up with people that I don't know, but my friends have done it. So I've definitely been a little bit more eager. And I've also recently come to the terms with, like, I'm 24. I need to put myself out there if, like, I want to, you know, get into a relationship, be a person. So the fear is. Honestly, I don't know. I think it's like, the build up, like, what made me write to you guys was a couple weeks ago, I matched with the guy on Hinge Q. We exchanged numbers, we texted here and there. He tried to, like, we both tried to, like, make plans. Kind of fell through. And then two times I rescheduled and putting air quotes because I was so, like, I was sick with anxiety. Also, I feel like it's worth mentioning I can go out to the bars and, like, talk to guys. I'm not anxious in that sense. Granted, there is a little bit of alcohol, but even sober, I'm fine. It's like the build up of, like, I don't know this person. I don't know how awkward it's gonna be. It just. It freaks me out.

Nick (88:52)

Have you ever suggested, like, a zoom date or.

Caller (88:56)

I've thought about that. Like. Or even, like, because he had my number, I've thought about being like, can we like facetime just to get like a vibe check. But I don't know, I just.

Nick (89:05)

We don't. What don't you know?

Caller (89:07)

Okay. I think maybe this also plays into it.

Jessica (89:09)

There are.

Caller (89:10)

I feel like this is normal for people. I go through phases where I don't care to date. I don't really want a boyfriend. I'm like happy.

Nick (89:17)

Sure.

Caller (89:18)

With that makes sense, you know, my life.

Taylor (89:19)

Yeah.

Caller (89:20)

I'm sure a lot of people feel like that. But so I feel like when I'm in those phases, I don't care enough to make the effort to say, oh let's FaceTime, let's.

Nick (89:29)

Yeah, but that's not the problem. Isn't when you are in the phases of wanting to be independent and single. The problem is, is when you're in the phases of maybe wanting to get out there, you're incapable of doing that. Right. So like that's, that's just an excuse you're telling yourself to make your field self feel better about the fears, anxieties you have about like getting out there. And also like this is, this is really more about you developing a skill.

Jessica (89:53)

Yeah.

Nick (89:54)

Rather than like whether you're ready for a husband or not, you know, or, or if you're interested in having a boyfriend or not. This is about you just like developing some, some basic social skills for kind of breaking it down so that like you can put yourself in more advantageous situations to maybe meet a guy whenever it is you're ready to meet a guy. But even when you meet guy, listen like, you know, nowadays, you know, with all the, you know, language around dating and love bombing and, and things like that, you know, but you know, we have, you know, it's hookup culture has never been more prominent commitment and defining relationships never been more rare. At the same time now we all have these new terms like gaslighting and love bombing and yada yada. And now it's like everyone out there is dating things like, well, they told me this and now they change their mind and they're a love bombing, narcissistic gas PC shitting pieces of. Because like you know, and may they told me this and in June me tell me that and that those two things aren't the same. So they must have been lying and manipulating me and now they're a loser and I hate them and they're a narcissist and I'm just a victim of, of, of evil people out there. And that's just not reality. The reality is, is like, you know, we all are Just, you know, especially in our twenties, a little self centered, a little confused, a little unsure. We're all just figuring it out. We feel things, we react to them, we process our feelings. We realize that maybe our initial reaction wasn't the right reaction. You know, I've heard the phrase recently, you know, something like first feeling, second choice or something. You know, we have a feeling, we feel whenever it is, we feel something in that moment. But maybe it's the second choice or the second thought that maybe is the better thought than the first thought that comes into our head when we find out some crazy or whatever. You know, that just comes with maturity and things like that. So you, you know, listen, like, obviously I'm just kind of saying a bunch of random here, but I'm just trying to offer you maybe some perspective because I think when we get in our heads, we lack perspective. And then you just start coming and you start ruminating, going down these rabbit holes and you psych yourself out and, and, and you get nowhere.

Caller (91:57)

Yeah, that's very true. For me. I feel like I'm conflicted because on one hand, like you're only in your 20s once. I want to, you know, experience a lot of different things, meet new people, live them to the fullest. But then on the other hand, it's just that fear of like, I don't know, I guess the unknown. Because this is something that I've never, I don't know that side of myself, if that makes sense.

Nick (92:20)

Like what side?

Caller (92:22)

Like, I guess like I've never been in a relationship. Honestly, I think the last guy I liked it was in high school, like throughout college, it. I was kind of in and out, didn't really get involved, work, didn't really meet anyone, so.

Nick (92:38)

And you didn't like a guy because you don't feel like you let anyone close or you just like. Honestly, I don't remember the last time I had a crush on somebody.

Caller (92:45)

No, I can remember like little crushes, but nothing like.

Nick (92:51)

Well, and what do you, I mean, what's your gut tell you? You think you've been a little bit more avoidant or do you think you just like haven't met anyone or you've been too busy to care?

Caller (92:59)

I think it's a. Literally a combination of all three. I think.

Nick (93:03)

Well, the other two parts are fine, but like, let's this. My guess is you're calling in to trust the whatever a part of you is that avoidant part so you can like, yeah, like you said, be a human whenever you want to be a Human. And when you want to be an introverted, you know, recluse, you can be that. Right? You know, you have, you know, you're only 24. You know, you're, you have a lot to figure out about life yourself. You're not this like one dimensional person. You can be multiple things at multiple different times. But this is about, like, you recognizing and wanting to address, you know, a problem that you have that's stopping you from, from as you, in your words, at times feeling like a human, stopping you from having experiences that part of you wants to try to enjoy. But like you're letting your fears, insecurities, neuroses stop you from having those aspects of your life. Right?

Caller (93:54)

Yeah, totally.

Nick (93:55)

So when you're trying to understand your choices, you should be mindful of this internal dialogue you have, because here I am listening to you. I'm a stranger to you. I don't know anything, you know, you know, and so this happens a lot when people call in. It's like, you have your question right, here's your main theme. Here's what I want to help with. And then as you tell your story, you are including things that you, you're, you're, you're including like, what I hear is like things you tell yourself from time to time. And now you're telling me. And those things you tell yourself to me are just things, like, they're just either excuses or these are things that I can, I can hear your inner monologue and, and how you justify choices, how you convince yourself of things, yet, you know, things that we all do. Right.

Caller (94:39)

Yeah.

Nick (94:40)

And so it's as far as your, as your problem that you called in for as it relates to that. Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't care. I mean, it's not really relevant to your problem that sometimes. Yeah, yeah, you're fine with being an independent woman and it's, you know, and, and great, that's awesome. But we need to address the part that's causing you to avoid life.

Caller (95:02)

Yeah, I know it's something I need to do. Like, I just need to.

Nick (95:05)

So what are the things. Okay, we acknowledge you need to make sure you're safe. We get that. Right?

Caller (95:11)

Yeah.

Nick (95:12)

But I'm guessing what's stopping you from moving forward with these dates is less about is he gonna kill me? And more about you. All these, like, thoughts of I don't know what I'm gonna say, is it gonna be weird? Am I going to feel uncomfortable? Blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I'm just going to stay home.

Caller (95:29)

Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly.

Nick (95:32)

Okay, so. So it's less about safety but like, you know, say, you know, but solution one. Yeah. Just start vibe checking them like you said, FaceTime, Zoom date. You know, you don't even have to give out your number. You can literally create an email that's only for online dating. It can be whatever you want. And when you're like, hey, this in. That's going to. That's the email you share for zooms. And like, it's, that's all it is. Like, like it's. That's the only personal information they have is an email you give out to strangers.

Caller (95:58)

Yeah.

Nick (95:59)

So then you're safe there. Right. And listen, that's, that's, that's being extra cautious. But, you know, let's say if you want to give out your number, chances are that's probably fine too. Right. But a FaceTime call or a zoom call goes a long way. You get a sense of their humor. You can get a better idea of what they look like, their voice, their inflections, how that. Do they pay attention? Do they ask questions like, I don't know. It's also just zoom or face time. So be prepared to be wrong. But you can certainly, you can learn more than texts, and it's just a stepping stone, you know, that's helpful. That being said, I, I think one thing, maybe I think you're like, I don't know whether lipstick on a mirror or post a note to yourself. I don't know, you remind yourself, but you should write down in a journal. No one gives a fuck.

Caller (96:44)

Yeah.

Nick (96:45)

When you are going, you're debating whether you want to go on a date with these guys. Whatever questions you have about what they might think, do or act like, who gives a. They're most likely going to only be strangers in distant memories. So, yeah, who gives a what they think about you? And for all the guys that you go out with and decide you don't like, who gives a. Who gives a what they think? I don't. Who cares? Like, you, you were pretty, you were ugly, you were. You were charming, you were funny, you were obnoxious. Who gives a. You won't know. Who cares? It's none of your goddamn business.

Caller (97:18)

Yeah.

Nick (97:19)

And if you go in to just be. Just be I. And tell yourself what I need to be is curious. Just curious. Like, I just want to meet people. I don't know, maybe I'll make a friend and, and, and focus on learning about liking them. You know, some of the basic things I talk about all the time. But clearly a lot of what you're talking about is a fear of what they might think. And you're. You're thinking too much about what they're thinking, these strangers. My guess is these men. And, and, and talking yourself out of it and worried about what they're going to think of you and worried about if you're going to be accepted and, you know, who gives a. You know, and if maybe you can practice the who gives a little mentality and a little bit. And for sure, maybe that'll help.

Caller (97:57)

Yeah, I definitely have been told I, I care a lot of what people think of me.

Nick (98:01)

Okay, there. There you go.

Caller (98:02)

And it's. Yeah, so there's that. And it's also, like I said, just the. It's like, I do not want to put myself through what could possibly be, like, torturous, awkward, but I know, I know something I have to do.

Nick (98:13)

And like, I don't get that mentality in general. I think that mentality is far more prevalent. But, like, life is pain in a lot of ways. You know, I don't. And I say this as I've gotten older, some of your most memorable moments as you get older, and the moments you look back on fondly and the moments you learn from the most will be the moments that, when they happen, will be painful, will be sad, will be difficult, will be challenging, because that's his life. I don't know. Like, no one takes all their advice from other people. Like, we just don't. We have to live life, experience it, make mistakes for ourselves. And you are skipping out on a lot of aspects of lives for the sake of, like, not putting yourself through something that you don't even know what that something is. Like, I don't know, live some life, get up a little bit. I don't know, have someone fuck you over. I don't know. Like, yeah, you'll be sad and you'll cry and like, but you'll. You'll live. You'll deal. Like, I don't know. Right now you. It sounds like you have very limited resiliency.

Caller (99:16)

Yeah, maybe.

Nick (99:18)

And maybe you're resilient in ways that you don't realize, you know, but you are avoiding obstacles for the sake of protecting yourself. And I just want to let you know you're not really. You might be protecting yourself in the short run, but you're definitely not protecting yourself in the long run because you're, you're avoiding lessons and opportunities for growth.

Caller (99:40)

Yeah, no, I get you. I, I also am someone who, like, you, clocked me. Like, I. I avoid things that I know will bring me discomfort, pain, just because I don't want to feel those things. But again, I know it's something I want to do and I want to be better at, which is obviously why I'm talking to you now. It's just a matter of, like, getting myself to do it.

Nick (100:01)

Yeah, I mean, you know, I know that, that, that is true. I mean, you kind of hit the nail on the head. You know, if you want to think of an analogy, I'm sure you've seen a lot of guys cold plunging these days, are women or whatever. It's like a new phrase. And yeah, I don't think that ever gets easy, but, like, it's a lot easier the more you do it. And the first time you do it, boy, that first dipping your toe in that. In that water is like, I'd rather not. And a lot of time you're just like, you know what? It. I don't need to be cold. I don't. You know, man, you just got to do it. You just got to build up the guts, and you just gotta do it. And you gotta tell yourself rationally, your rational brain has to take over and say, I. I feel all these things. I acknowledge my feelings. Yes, I'm scared, but rationally, I know that I'm being irrational. You got to understand the difference between being scared and being in danger. That's something I was. Was kind of reinforced in my brain when I did that show, Special Forces. You know, you're hanging from the sky and walking, you know, and scary. But, like, I was safe. I was all, you know, I was all strapped. I was just scared. You know, it was scary to do that, but I was never really in any danger, you know?

Caller (101:06)

Yeah.

Nick (101:07)

And that's a lesson you have to learn so you can. And. And I could have been scared. I can have told myself, oh, I got a kid on the way this. I shouldn't be doing this stuff. The reality is I was. I had to conquer a fear, you know, so when you get worked up and you get, you know, you gotta. You gotta check yourself and look in the mirror and call yourself out and be like, all right, I'm doing the thing. You know, using that analogy of Special Forces, you know, there was this thing called the Leopard Rock walk, right? And it was just basically this rope that was connected between one mountain to another and below. It was, I don't know, like a mile deep. And I had to crawl on the rope across, right? Now, granted, I was very safe. I was all hooked up to safety things, and I could have jumped off and been totally fine. And eventually that's exactly what happened. And when I did it, I didn't do it because I didn't get to the beginning of that rope and then figure out how to be not scared. I. I did it while being scared.

Caller (102:02)

Yeah.

Nick (102:03)

You know, I just did it. And, you know, so you're. Right now you're. You. You get these dates. So you plan these dates, and you get psyched out, and then you try to convince yourself not to be scared, and then you don't, and so you flake. You have to get to the point where you're still scared, and you do it anyways because your rational brain says, listen, like, we've. We've. He looks normal. We've. We've done a zoom date. I've chosen a public place, you know, like.

Caller (102:32)

Yeah, yeah.

Nick (102:33)

Like. Like basic shit, just to make sure you're okay. It might be a bad date. He might be weird. I might be awkward. It might go terrible. But honestly, like, that's not gonna hurt me. I'm gonna be okay. So let's just go and fucking do this shit. And give yourself the grace to not be perfect and not have them like you. And. And. And know that the first time doing anything, it's not gonna be great at it. So don't go in there with the expectation that you're gonna be perfect and just see what the fuck happens. One bit of advice is I wouldn't let the first guy you want to date with know it's your first date. Just don't make it a thing. Stop. You know, don't. Yeah, he doesn't need to know. Doesn't matter.

Jessica (103:13)

Okay.

Caller (103:14)

Yeah.

Nick (103:14)

Like, you know, just. Yeah, and just try to have fun. You know, just. You know, when I. Again, back to the silliest Special Forces analogy. Like, it is exhilarating to face a fear. And when I was still scared, as when I did that, but I was like, I. I know I'm scared, but I know I'm gonna, like, it's gonna be wild. So, like, I decided to have fun, then. That was a choice. I could just make a choice and say, I'm gonna do this. I'm scared, but it. I'm gonna have some fun.

Caller (103:43)

Yeah.

Nick (103:43)

And you can't. You're capable of doing that. You just haven't decided to do it yet.

Caller (103:48)

Yeah, totally.

Nick (103:49)

Does that make sense? Is this helpful? Am I just.

Caller (103:51)

Yeah, for sure. It definitely is. It feels good having it Come from someone else. Because I talked to my sister, I talked to, like, my friends to try and, like, not hold me accountable, but just, like, I'll tell them, and every time I'm like, sorry, I couldn't do it.

Nick (104:04)

And listen, you'll do it when you're ready.

Caller (104:08)

Yeah.

Nick (104:09)

Just know. And that's, you know, I could say that and you could, you know, you could use as an excuse to push back on these people trying to, like, motivate you. You can be like, I'll do it when I'm ready. Yeah, sure. But like, you know, but just know that you are costing yourself right now. You are costing yourself good times, valuable lessons. You are. You have fallen behind your peers. You know, you'll live, you'll get through it. You're still relatively young, but, like, there's a cost. And when you are ready to stop falling behind, when you're ready to stop missing out, you'll. You'll do it. But I would start being your own toughest critic instead of your friends. And I would try to challenge yourself.

Caller (104:52)

Yeah.

Nick (104:53)

To not talk yourself into quitting and being too scared and just jump in the pool. Yeah.

Caller (105:01)

For sure.

Nick (105:02)

And know that it won't be perfect. It won't be, you know, you know, be like, here we go, you know.

Caller (105:09)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do definitely get disappointed in myself when I do that because I'm like, in my head, I'm like, okay, it's a week away. I'll do it. I'll be fine. And then like the day before or the day up comes and just out.

Nick (105:24)

Of curiosity, what, what. What is the. What is the most common recurring thought that you have that psychs you out?

Caller (105:31)

Honestly, it really is just the. The potential of it being extremely awkward. Challenge to talk to him, ask questions. Yeah, yeah, no, that's true.

Nick (105:44)

Just be curious. Be somewhat of an open book.

Caller (105:49)

Yeah.

Nick (105:49)

You know, you can ask a lot of questions and they, you know, listen, if you go in there being, you know, do you like work? He hates it. He likes it. I don't know. Follow questions. Oh, that's really cool. You know, just give a shit. Pretend to care.

Caller (106:03)

Yeah.

Nick (106:03)

And then maybe you find out you will. If you go on a date and you pretend to care and this guy's like, yes, no, yes, no. Yes, no, yes, no, no. Doesn't elaborate, just gives you one word answers. Yeah. You'll know quickly, like, yeah, I don't know. He's just. And then maybe he'll. He'll be nervous too, or he won't you know, like, it's just not going to go perfect. So just. Just be curious and be open to. It's just a date, you know, no one's watching, no one's judging, no one's measuring.

Caller (106:31)

Yeah.

Nick (106:31)

There's no awards being handed out. Got nothing to lose.

Caller (106:35)

Yeah.

Nick (106:36)

You know, they're meant to be a little awkward. Just try it out.

Caller (106:41)

Yeah, definitely. Well, I just need to, like you said, do it anyways, because I'll overthink.

Nick (106:46)

And overthink and then stop planning it a week ahead.

Caller (106:50)

Okay. Yeah.

Jessica (106:51)

Okay.

Caller (106:52)

Yeah. No, because that is so true. Because there will be times where, like, I'm like, oh, I don't have plans. Like, I would love to, like, do something or tomorrow. You know what I mean? Like, go on a date. Like, that would be fun. But then I'm like, I don't really have. I don't know who to.

Nick (107:06)

Literally. I mean, at this point, you literally just go on the app and just ask anyone. This is not about meeting your guy. This is about you, like, learning how to meet strangers.

Caller (107:17)

Yeah.

Nick (107:17)

And so it doesn't matter. The stranger. Honestly, it might be better for you to go on a guy that you're. Honestly, you're like, I. I'm not even interested in this guy. I don't even find him out of tr. Active practice.

Caller (107:29)

Yeah, that's. That's a good point. And also, I just. When you said that, it reminded me of something, I feel like that is also where a fear comes from. It's like if I match with a guy on Hinge and, like, I don't give my number out a lot, but here and there, and we text for like a day or two or. I. I feel like I have. I don't know. It's. It's just like a mental thing. I feel safer. I don't. Obviously, there's no, like, nothing logical behind that other than just my brain versus meeting someone directly on the app. I don't know why it feels like more of a stranger to me. That's just a me problem. But that definitely is something also that.

Nick (108:10)

Well, meeting someone in the app is more of a stranger.

Caller (108:13)

Yeah, well, I mean. Yeah, I just feel like I need that. Like. Well, like you said I could do FaceTime.

Nick (108:19)

Yeah. I mean, yeah. Listen. Meeting someone in the app is literally just a stranger. It's just like random fucking people saying, I'm single.

Caller (108:26)

Yeah.

Nick (108:27)

You know, and you meet someone at your bar that. Yeah, there's so much less of a stranger. There's immediate rapport. You see them in the wild. You see what they look like, you see their voice, you see how they treat other people around them. You know, there's so much more. Yeah, that's, that's why, that's why jumping on a FaceTime or a Zoom, you can learn so much more about these strangers on the Internet that like, will hopefully like, just give you a little bit more of a, a reason to. And you can, you can just be like, listen, I don't like meeting strangers, whatever. But like, I definitely like. And you say it like as a, as a confident woman. Just be like, yeah, like I just, I like, I like doing a vibe check.

Caller (109:03)

Yeah.

Nick (109:03)

You know, if guys say no to that, then great. That's weird for them. Why would they say no to. Yeah, something cool, you know, and when people say things like that's weird, don't let it get in your head. Them saying, that's weird. Is this. That just says, that's different that I'm used to and I'm not used to different. And so I'm going to call it weird to make you feel a certain way about me not liking something that you're comfortable with.

Caller (109:26)

Yeah.

Nick (109:27)

This mental game. So like someone calling, you know, so like, if someone calls something weird, let it be weird for them, not weird for you.

Caller (109:34)

No, totally.

Nick (109:35)

You know, so if I were you, baby steps. Try going on the apps and try having a Couple zoom/facetime dates. Try it out. Practice.

Caller (109:46)

Okay.

Nick (109:47)

They don't need to know you're practicing.

Caller (109:48)

Yeah.

Nick (109:49)

And when you practice, be like, yeah, I just want to, you know, hey, I've never done this before. The guy will say, and you're like, yeah, well, you know, it's just honestly meeting. And you say like, listen, you know, like honestly meeting strangers, it's always exhausting. And I don't know, I've an act, you know, just. I just rather, I just kind of want to do a vibe check, you know, and you know, what do you, you know, instead, instead of what do you, what do you do for work and what are you doing this week and just over a text, just do that over zoom. And if anyone at any point is like, ah, this guy's not the worst to talk to, just be like, I don't know, do you want to. Let's grab a coffee.

Caller (110:24)

Yeah.

Nick (110:25)

You know, and just go from there. And, and again, just remind yourself, I'm. I am not doing it. This. There's nothing, there's no stakes here. Just. I'm just.

Caller (110:36)

Yeah.

Nick (110:37)

Just meeting people.

Jessica (110:38)

Yeah, sure.

Nick (110:40)

Very, very kind of open ended Very cash, very whatever. Kind of a personal question. Like, but I'm just curious how this is playing a role. Are you. Are you limited? Like, I've, like, you haven't. Like, have you had boyfriends? Like, what's your. Like, are you part hook? You're very.

Caller (110:59)

No, I'm not.

Nick (111:00)

Are you a virgin?

Caller (111:02)

Yeah.

Nick (111:02)

Okay. All right, that's.

Caller (111:04)

But, yeah. And I would say that sub. It's subconsciously definitely plays a role. But at the same time, like, I know who I am and I know that I wouldn't, like, not. I don't want to say subtle, but, like, if someone made me feel bad for that, I know it's no reflection of me. If that makes sense. Like, it wouldn't bother me. I mean. Yeah, okay, that's a lie. It probably would bother me, but that's not something that necessarily, like, stopping me because I know, like, for the right guy, it'd be fine.

Nick (111:31)

And is this more. Is this a religious thing? Is this like, you just, you know, just. You just are.

Caller (111:37)

Yeah, just, like, I just.

Nick (111:39)

Just great found, I guess just don't. Like, whenever you want to, you will. Whenever it feels right, you will. But, like, just my advice to you on that is, don't make it more special.

Caller (111:51)

Yeah.

Nick (111:52)

Than it needs to be. Respect it. Because it is a very powerful thing that most people don't respect. But like it. You know, I think it's just a weird thing in. In 2024, religion and. And. And other reasons you're making decision aside. But for someone like you.

Jessica (112:09)

Yeah.

Nick (112:10)

I don't. I hope it's not the most memorable sex you ever have, and I certainly hope it's not the most special sex you ever have.

Caller (112:18)

Yeah.

Nick (112:19)

So just that's it. But, yeah, it sounds like it's not really having that much an effect in your dating life. I'm sure. Like, let's. Like, everything. There's. Everything is a. Yeah. Everything works together, you know, on some level. But I don't think these men need to know much about that until you really feel comfortable with someone that you're dating. And, you know, until then, you don't. I would be. This is a. You dating and you going out and meeting people is about you learning about them, not the other way around. It is their job to be curious about you, and you can gauge your interest in them by how curious they are in you. But don't let their lack of curiosity trigger your ego and chase them for validation, you know?

Caller (112:59)

So, yeah, for sure. That definitely is, like, because I want to date because I want to, like, experience it. Like, learn who I am in that aspect of my life. Not necessarily to get a boyfriend right now, or it's more so just for the experience of it all until, like, I guess learn more about myself and, like, experience things that I have not before. So. Yeah.

Nick (113:22)

All right, well, just you, you know, the final thoughts. I think it's about your general mindset and that changing that mindset to be adventurous. It's really just about that. This is not about. Fine. This is not about losing your virginity. It's not about finding a boyfriend. You know, it's. This is about getting better at meeting people. Yeah. And learning about people. It's also learning a little bit about yourself. What do you learn about yourself when you're meeting these people? Like, what do you. What do you find yourself being drawn to? Those are questions you ask yourself after dates, you know.

Caller (113:56)

Yeah.

Nick (113:56)

And just be open to learning.

Caller (113:59)

Yeah.

Nick (113:59)

Face your fears. The biggest thing is when. If you can say the thing, I'm not going to do it because I don't want to feel that. Then. Then know that you need to do that thing.

Caller (114:12)

Yeah.

Nick (114:13)

That is your, like, big. That is your big, like the bat signal that says you're. You're. You're. You're avoiding this thing irrationally out of fears that are just fears. And for sure, when I'm. I need to just do it because, you know, you. You need to feel these things. It's part of life.

Caller (114:31)

Yeah, I agree. I'll do it.

Nick (114:34)

All right.

Caller (114:34)

First step is a FaceTime date.

Nick (114:36)

Yeah.

Caller (114:36)

Or a FaceTime conversation.

Nick (114:37)

Make it simple. And let's just, you know, maybe you want to do 10 of those before you actually do a real date. But just make sure you're making some kind of progress, you know, and challenge yourself to, like, extend your comfort zone a little bit at a time.

Caller (114:50)

Okay. Well, this was definitely helpful.

Nick (114:53)

Okay.

Caller (114:53)

And encouraging.

Nick (114:54)

Great. Well, follow up. We're going to follow up with you, like, in a month, and hopefully, hopefully by then you'll have at least gone on a zoom date, but hopefully a real person date. And I think the biggest thing is, again, it literally doesn't matter who. Just make sure they have a heartbeat.

Caller (115:10)

Yeah.

Jessica (115:11)

Okay.

Nick (115:11)

Okay. Okay. All right. And they seem safe.

Caller (115:14)

Yeah, for sure.

Nick (115:16)

Okay.

Jessica (115:17)

Okay.

Nick (115:17)

All right. Take care.

Caller (115:18)

All right. Thank you so much. You, too.

Nick (115:19)

All right. Bye.

Jessica (115:20)

Bye.

Nick (115:34)

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