E913 Ask Nick - She Cheated on the Jumbotron

Summary

Episode Summary: The Viall Files – E913 "Ask Nick - She Cheated on the Jumbotron"

Release Date: April 7, 2025

In this heartfelt and intense episode of The Viall Files, host Nick Viall addresses a caller, Bryce, who grapples with the devastating discovery that his girlfriend cheated on him during a baseball game—a moment broadcasted live on national television. Joined by co-host Natalie Joy and the Household, Nick delves deep into Bryce's emotional turmoil, offering guidance and insights to help him navigate this challenging period.

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Caller Introduction: Bryce’s Heartbreak [02:14 – 05:00]

Bryce, a 27-year-old, reaches out to Nick with a heavy heart after 3.5 years of being in a relationship that was seemingly on the brink of deepening. He recounts the moment his girlfriend was caught kissing another man on the field's Jumbotron during a national baseball game broadcast.

Bryce [02:15]: "I need some help. I caught my girlfriend cheating on me at a baseball game that was on national television."

He expresses disbelief and shock, emphasizing the unexpected nature of the betrayal, especially after numerous discussions about their future together, including plans to get engaged.

Bryce [02:35]: "We were dating for three and a half years and had several conversations about, like, getting engaged and stuff."

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The Aftermath: Emotional Turmoil and Coping Mechanisms [05:00 – 14:00]

Following the incident, Bryce details his decision to cut off all communication with his girlfriend, including blocking her on social media and removing himself from social platforms to recoup emotionally.

Bryce [04:18]: "I removed all my social media, just go off the radar for a little bit, recoup myself."

Nick empathizes with Bryce's pain, acknowledging the depth of his hurt and the impact on his life goals, such as buying a house and contemplating marriage.

Nick Viall [05:00]: "You're just hurting, man, right now, that's all."

Bryce shares his conflicting emotions—part of him feels liberated without her, while another part still harbors love and uncertainty about moving forward.

Bryce [04:56]: "But, like, there's part of me that's like, if she really came to me with, like, a genuine apology... I do love her."

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Navigating Emotional Responses: Nick’s Guidance [14:00 – 30:00]

Nick provides Bryce with actionable advice, emphasizing self-care and the importance of not allowing one painful experience to taint his perspective on relationships or women in general. He encourages Bryce to continue focusing on personal growth—visiting the gym, spending time with family, and reading the Bible.

Nick Viall [27:06]: "And in the meantime, just make good decisions for yourself. Make healthy decisions. Invest in good people. Invest in your family. Read your Bible."

He cautions against letting anger dictate his interactions with others, urging Bryce to maintain a balanced and positive outlook despite the betrayal.

Nick Viall [18:09]: "Don't be so weak that you allow this person to... change your perspective and attitude towards women in general."

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Addressing Reputation Concerns and Setting Boundaries [30:00 – 51:14]

As the conversation progresses, Bryce reveals that his ex-girlfriend is tarnishing his reputation by falsely claiming he cheated and portrayed him negatively to mutual friends and family.

Bryce [36:27]: "She is telling people that I cheated on her and she's like this."

Nick advises Bryce to stop discussing the ex publicly to prevent further damage to his reputation, suggesting he communicates calmly and firmly to establish boundaries.

Nick Viall [38:39]: "If you make some healthy progress one way or the other, whether it's jumping into therapy, setting a boundary with your sister... there's always something we can learn from it."

He reiterates the importance of personal boundaries, recommending Bryce to limit his interactions with his ex to prevent emotional entanglement and to protect his mental well-being.

Nick Viall [34:24]: "You have to set some healthy boundaries with your sister. And not let your sister come over in the middle of the night, not let her call."

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Final Advice: Embracing Self-Growth and Moving Forward [51:14 – End]

In the concluding segments, Nick emphasizes that Bryce has taken significant steps towards healing by seeking advice and setting boundaries. He encourages him to continue investing in himself and to remain strong in his resolve to move forward.

Nick Viall [50:33]: "Make healthy decisions. Invest in good people. Invest in your family. Read your Bible."

Nick offers a final word of encouragement, reassuring Bryce that he is not alone in his struggles and that with time and self-care, he will overcome the heartbreak.

Nick Viall [50:36]: "Everything you told me, it sounds like she... you handled it pretty well."

Bryce expresses gratitude for the support, acknowledging that Nick's advice has provided him with the clarity and strength needed to continue his healing journey.

Bryce [50:54]: "Yeah, I really. I've had... it was actually what I needed."

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Key Takeaways

1. Self-Care is Paramount: In the face of betrayal, prioritizing personal well-being through exercise, family time, and spiritual practices can aid in emotional recovery.

2. Establishing Boundaries: Cutting off toxic relationships and limiting interactions with detrimental individuals is crucial for mental health and personal growth.

3. Protecting Reputation: Avoiding public discussions about personal conflicts helps maintain one's reputation and prevents further emotional distress.

4. Embracing Support Systems: Seeking advice from trusted sources, whether it's friends, family, or professional help, provides the necessary support to navigate through tough times.

5. Personal Growth Over Vengeance: Focusing on self-improvement rather than dwelling on the betrayal promotes healing and prevents negative emotions from festering.

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This episode serves as a profound exploration of dealing with infidelity, emotional pain, and the journey towards healing. Nick Viall's compassionate advice offers listeners practical strategies to overcome personal challenges and emerge stronger from relationship setbacks.

Transcript

[Nick Viall]

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[Nick Viall]

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[Bryce]

You're crazy.

[Nick Viall]

How's it going?

[Bryce]

Hey, my name is Bryce. I'm 27 years old and I need some help. I caught my girlfriend cheating at me at a baseball game that was on national television.

[Nick Viall]

Whoa, dude. This is like. Right. First of all, I'm sorry. That's. That sucks. So, like, where are we? Do you have the footage?

[Bryce]

I do, unfortunately. Yeah. So it's. It's crazy. I don't know where you want me to start, but this isn't like, you know, we were dating for a couple weeks and she went out and did that? No, we were dating for three and a half years and had several conversations about, like, getting engaged and stuff like that.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Bryce]

And, man, it just totally out of left field happened, which is ironic, me saying that, but pun intended. Yeah, caught her on tv. My. My little brother actually called her. And the way it happened was just nuts. I mean, where I'm from, like, baseball's big.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Bryce]

And so for them, you know, for her and this other guy to go and do that, they were very aware of the possibility of getting caught. And, yeah, my little brother caught it and he called me, and I immediately turned it on, rewind it, and saw it. And it was. I mean, in shock. I don't really know.

[Nick Viall]

That sucks, dude. And, like, were they, like, kiss camming and are, like, being affectionate or they like. She was, like, with a guy, Very.

[Bryce]

Very affectionate, and she's so damn stupid. Like, you know, his arm was around her, she's holding his hand, and you could just see how awkward it was for her. No, I mean, I don't know if she knew she was on tv. She was definitely on, like, the Jumbotron.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Bryce]

But I don't think she knew she was on TV until my siblings decided to send her a message.

[Nick Viall]

So she knows she's got caught. We know that now. Oh, she.

[Bryce]

She. Yeah, she knows.

[Nick Viall]

Okay. All right. And what does she said?

[Bryce]

So, man, I took a different route than probably most people would took. I never reached out to her. Once it happened, that was it. It's been almost a month now. I have not reached out to her. One time I blocked her on everything.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Bryce]

I removed all my social media, just go off the radar for a little bit, recoup myself.

[Nick Viall]

Do you. You have this footage? Like, do you have it on your phone? Can you send it to Justin? I am curious. I just want to see it. We won't. We won't use it. We obviously want to protect people's identity.

[Bryce]

Yeah, man. The whole thing has just been. I don't even know, just probably. I mean, definitely the craziest thing that I've ever had to deal with in my life.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, it sucks, man.

[Bryce]

Especially when you're. You're three and a half years in, apart from, like, money invested and time and stuff. Just, you know, I was getting to that point where I was ready to, like, actually figure out my life, settle down, get married, have a family and all that. And hoes gonna be hoes at the end of the day, I guess.

[Nick Viall]

You're just hurting, man, right now, that's all.

[Bryce]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

How old is she?

[Bryce]

She is 20. About to be 25.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, you're 27?

[Bryce]

Yes.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, back to, like, how you handled it. So, like, you know, you haven't talked to her in a month. You blocked her on everything. You just kind of. I'm guessing you're just like, your little brother. Told you, you saw it, moment of shock, it hurt, whatever, and you're just like this, I'm done, I'm out, I have my answer kind of thing. You. You know, but, like, you also called in and were like, hey, how do I handle my girlfriend cheating on me? So in your mind, is she your girlfriend today?

[Bryce]

No. So this is the backstory on it. Okay. So we dated three and a half years, and this past May, so May 2024, we took a break. And it was a literal break. She said that I was very complacent in the relationship. I wasn't putting a lot of effort in. And. And I, you know, I was like, okay, you're right. I do love you. Like, I've definitely kind of been lazy here and there, so let me get my shit together. I was still living with my parents, you know, whatever, you know, I was just trying to save money to where I could buy a house and stuff. And so, you know, when she broke up with me, I was like, you know, she's right. Like, I gotta. This is a reality. Reality call.

[Nick Viall]

That's all.

[Bryce]

That's all it is.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Bryce]

So over, like, the next 30 days of that breakup, we stayed in contact the whole time, which was weird, but, you know, I started figuring out what I wanted to do. I mean, I have a great job, great family. The only thing I was lacking was, like, a place to be on my own. So I went out and started looking at houses. I ended up buying a house in September. By this point, we were back together. So we were back together. Things were going great. Asked her to move in with me around Thanksgiving she would refuse to move in with me. Didn't provide me any reason other than that she didn't have the money to. To help out. And I told her, you don't have to help out. Like, I got everything. You don't have to worry about it.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Bryce]

And so she's still like, you know, I. I just don't think that we should do that. And so I'm just like, all right, well, whatever, you know, I'll try again in a few months. And so months go by, and I guess we're. This was probably a month ago exact. I brought it up again, and she was still the same way. Like, I just don't think we should do that right now. It's still early in our relationship, and I'm like, you know, it's been three and a half years. Either. Either we either have an idea of where we're going or we don't. You know, like, we're kind of too far along at this point. And so this was like, you know, on. This was a Saturday night, she came to my house. We spent the whole night together, ate, dinner, date, everything. Fantastic evening. The next morning, we wake up and she breaks up with me. And so I'm. Again, this is like the first part of me being shell shocked. I didn't understand where it was coming from.

[Nick Viall]

Sure.

[Bryce]

I asked what was going on, and she said that we weren't getting along well. And I knew something in the back of my mind told me that something was going on that I just wasn't aware about. But I tried. I trusted her with everything in my life. I mean, I've never trusted anyone, even family. Like, I trusted her.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Bryce]

And so I just knew in my guts something. Something was wrong. And while she was at my house breaking up with me, I asked her, I said, are you cheating on me? And she. She lost her on me and was like, I can't believe you'd say that. And I even apologized for saying it because I was like that, you know, you would never do that. You would never do that. And so she was like, look, this isn't like a real breakup. Like, we need to take a break again. We need to figure things out. We're not communicating well, so let's spend some time apart. I still, like, we still need to talk. We still need to. So we can see each other, but we're not going to have the title of dating. So I'm like, okay, like, whatever. Whatever you say, you know, whatever. So the next day comes and I called her, and I was Like, I don't think we should do this at all. Like, look, you say you love me, I love you. You know, we've been through so much together. Like, let's just sit down and talk and figure this out. She said, no, I don't. You know, I don't think that's a good idea. We can't ever talk about it on our own. I said, well, then why don't we go sit with, like, a couple's therapists and, you know, figure this out? That's someone who doesn't know us. They can hear both of our sides of the stories or whatever we have to say, and they can help form an unbiased opinion on it. She said that it was too early in our relationship to do that. Then I was like, okay, well, why don't we start going to church and actually build a foundation on God? I mean, that's. That's our religion, Christianity. She said she doesn't trust priests or pastors. So I'm like, well, fuck, you're giving me absolutely nothing here. I can't talk with you. We can't go sit with someone, and we can't build a foundation. So I told her, I said, this is really simple either I'm going to give you a legitimate breakup, meaning no texting, no talking, no seeing each other. You're not going to know where I'm at. You're not going to know what I'm doing, or we sit down and figure this out. She couldn't decide, so I said, I'm going to decide for you then. And so I told her, I said, if you. Whenever you decide what you want to do, you let me know and just send me a text saying, I'm ready to talk. That's it.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bryce]

She bawled. Bawled her eyes out, crying. She didn't want it to be this way, blah, blah, blah. And so over those next few days, she resorted to texting my mom, asking my mom, is. Is. Is he okay? Where is he at? Is he at work? Is he at home? And my mom was like, all right, this is a. This is becoming a problem now that she's bringing me into it. And we're adults, right?

[Nick Viall]

I mean, sure. You know, I'm sure on some level, though, her reach out to your mom felt a little good, because it was like she. You know, they still had me.

[Bryce]

Still had me on the. On the chain, I guess you could say. And so it was Thursday. She calls me, and I answered it. She had. She had been texting me all week. Telling me, I love you so much. I hope you're okay. Are you all right? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just. I didn't answer. I told her loud and clear, you let me know when you're ready to talk.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Bryce]

And so it was this Thursday, and she. She called me at, like, midnight asking how I was. And, you know, she was rambling on about something totally irrelevant. And I was like, look, let's cut the bullshit. Like, what are we doing here? Like, I. You know, I'm 27. I'm trying to figure this out. Like, I don't want to be playing games, wasting time. Like, what's going on? And her response to me was, I saw on Facebook that this is how childish this sounds. I saw on Facebook that your following count went up. Are you adding girls on Facebook? And I'm like, like, no. Like, no. Like, people. I add people I work with. I, you know, I know people adding people.

[Nick Viall]

It's also Facebook. I don't know if girls are right.

[Bryce]

I mean, seriously. Seriously. And I'm like, no. Like. And so she says, were any of the people you added, like, females? And I was like, yeah. I mean, one of them was. I went to school with her. No big deal. I never had a relationship with her. Don't desire to have any relationship with her. I'm still trying to figure out our relationship. That's what matters to me. And so she was like, okay, well, if you're going to go ahead and add other people, don't be mad when I start talking to other guys. And I'm like, hold on.

[Nick Viall]

What?

[Bryce]

Like, that's not even remotely the same. So she went on to basically tell me that she had texting or Snapchatting, whatever it was with some guy. And I told her. I was like, look, that's it for me. Like, I'm not. I'm not playing. I'm not playing these games. Like, I love you, but you. Your head's just not in the right. Right space. And I basically just wished her well and hung up on her. And she blew my phone up all night. And I finally answered it because I was trying. I mean, I was trying to get sleep.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Bryce]

And she was like, that's not what I meant. Like, I was just talking to a guy that I'm friends with about the whole situation. I'm like, okay, so I forgave her again. I'm like, all right, whatever. Let me know when you're ready to actually talk. And so she hung up that night, sent me a text saying, I love you. So much like you're my best friend ever, sent my mom a text saying, just want you to know how much I love. I love your son and how much your family means to me. And, you know, once we figure out this time apart, once we get back together, things are going to be great. And then 48 hours later, was caught on TV with this guy.

[Nick Viall]

Gotcha. Okay. And so we have the video now.

[Bryce]

I'll play it and then we'll cut it out.

[Nick Viall]

Hd, bro. Yeah. That sucks, man. That was. I must have fucking ripped your heart out. And so, okay, so then you found her a couple of days later, then you've blocked her ever since. You haven't. You haven't really spoken to her since.

[Bryce]

I have not talked to her since that night I was on the phone with her.

[Nick Viall]

That. So, like, now that you're calling in and now I understand the story in the context, like, what are you as of today trying to figure out? Like, what. What can I help you, like, wrestle with? Because to be honest, a lot of your, you know, your, Your instincts seem to be pretty good. Right? Like, you know, giving. Considering your situation and what you're going through and, you know, like, you're making generally decent choices. You know, like, I've seen people make worse choices. I've made worse choices in similar situations. But you're. You're. You're able to trust your instincts and your gut pretty well given. Given the stakes. But, like, how can I help you going forward?

[Bryce]

Yeah, I mean, really, just how do I move forward? I mean, I don't. I know I probably sound okay. And like, I mean, mentally I am okay. You know, the only, the only two things that have happened where a reaction has happened was that night, the night I saw it. I was getting in my truck to drive to the game to just show up and probably get arrested and beat the shit out of this guy. Honestly, that's. If it wasn't for my brother, I would have been arrested. And then probably a week or two later, I just got the urge and I called. I know this guy very well. He's a. He's such a. He's a piece of shit.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Bryce]

And like, people blast him all over social media for who he is and like girls all the time.

[Nick Viall]

It doesn't. Honestly that he's like. Honestly, I guess it doesn't really matter. Doesn't matter because, like, either way, it's going to fudgeing her because either he's a piece of shit or a great guy. Either way, you're going to fudgeing him.

[Bryce]

Right.

[Nick Viall]

You know, so, like, it doesn't. It doesn't make a difference. All right, but go ahead.

[Bryce]

Yeah, but, no. So, like, you know, it's trying to figure out how I just move forward. I mean, I've been obviously trying to keep myself busy. Going to the gym twice a day, spending time with family, spending time reading the Bible, just trying to better myself. But, like.

[Nick Viall]

So let me ask you this, you know, and there's no wrong answer here. I want to be very clear about that. Take your ego out of it. Take your pride out of it. Are you still, like, on the fence, contemplating, like, do I figure out a way to work this out with her? I don't even know how or what that looks like, Blah, blah, blah. But, you know, I'd still love this girl, and I wish it didn't happen, but blah, blah, blah. Or are you just, like, you know, listen, I've moved on. I'm not over her. I'm still, like, fucked up, a little. A little broken. But I do know, like, she is not my person. And I'm just trying to move forward. Which one's more truthful?

[Bryce]

Oh, shit, dude. I guess that's what I'm calling you. I don't know.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Bryce]

Part of me at times is like, I'm in a better headspace without her being here.

[Nick Viall]

Sure.

[Bryce]

But then there's part of me that's like, if she really came to me with, like, a genuine apology. I mean, that's the thing. She hasn't. And she lives close enough to me to. To, you know, show up and make an apology. I've ran into her multiple times. She just acts like I don't exist. So it's like, okay, is she a heartless bitch? And she, you know, she faked who she was, so It's.

[Nick Viall]

It's.

[Bryce]

I'm 50, 50 on it, you know, Because I do love her. I mean, you don't just stop loving someone at three and a half years, even after they do you wrong.

[Nick Viall]

But let me ask you this to be clear. Has she, for the most part, accepted your decision? And that decision is to, like, block her, be done with her? You know, like, to your point, you know, when you. You've ran into her, it's not like that resulted in her banging your door down. She acted like she didn't know you, and she knows where you live. And, like.

[Bryce]

Right.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, she hasn't.

[Bryce]

So it's weird because I don't know if she's accepted it because, like, she doesn't. She lives by me. But for her to be in my, on my side of town, there's no need, like, she doesn't do anything over here. There's nothing for her over here. And so like, literally two nights ago, she's right by my house and I live in an area.

[Nick Viall]

How do you know that there's nothing.

[Bryce]

I was right. I was right next to her in traffic. Right next to her.

[Nick Viall]

That sucks. Okay, well, here, I'm going to say this to you first before we, we. Before we unpack what you're trying to do. Like, and this is honestly more. If I give you any advice on this call, I hope you, I hope you listen to this advice. She you up, right? We've get up before, like, it. She hurt you. You've, you know, had a lot of plans, you know, she cheated on you or, you know, like, and, and also I'm guessing her version is different because, like, it sounds like there was like this kind of, where are you together? You're not together. I don't fucking know. But listen, you felt like she violated your trust and like, you have the right to feel that way. You've talked about self and betterment, you talked about reading your Bible and yada, yada, yada, more than anything. What's really important about this is that, like, you don't let this person, like, affect you to the point where you, like, you know, listen, everyone has baggage. You're going to have to deal with this shit some way somehow so you don't bring shit into your other relationship. But I've seen a lot of guys get fucked up by women and like, honestly just become toxic assholes and use that as a justification to like, be shitty towards women and say things like, hoes will be hoes and, you know, all women are bitches or whatever. Or like, all women, like, listen, people. People are fucking shitty. And there's a lot of shitty men out there and there's a lot of shitty women out there and everything in between, right? And so like, I. My biggest advice to you, like, man to man, is it's like, listen, like, she hurt you. And like, you're going have to figure that. You have a lot to figure out. But whatever you figure out, don't be so weak that you allow this person to, like, at the end of day, change your perspective and attitude towards women in general and let this person like, you know, honestly talk about women in ways that like, you would rather, you know, if you were still with your girl right now, you wouldn't be like, hoes being hoes and like that, you know, And I just think, you know, like, don't, don't allow yourself to let your anger change who you are and how you treat and act. Women in general.

[Bryce]

Yeah, no, for sure. And I, I know I said that, but that is definitely.

[Nick Viall]

I get it. Yeah. You're. Yeah, you're hurting my mom. Yeah, listen, you're. It's, it's affecting. I'm just saying I've seen a lot of guys and then like I appreciate you calling me. That's a good sign. Dealing with. Yeah. Listen, everything you told me, it sounds like, you know, she, by the way, you know, got a pretty X. She's an attractive girl. She's two years younger than you. You know, you're from a small, you know, you're, you're from a small area. I'm from Wisconsin. Remind me of myself when I was your age. You got a lot going for you. Good looking guy. You got a job like you mentioned, you know, so it's like you got to a certain point, I bought a house, I should buy a house. And now it's like, you know, I think a lot of people your age, right. Like I always say, like we, we in our 20s, we're, we're living up to the expect expectations we set for ourselves as teenagers. When, when you think about it in those contexts, sounds kind of stupid, but you're also living up to your expectations of like how you were raised in your family and your community and your surroundings. And there's a lot of good. Right. Like you, I don't know, sounds like you have a good family, you got a good role models and like we want to model our, our lives over the people that have been good examples. But you're also, you're in a very, you're. You're 27, very transitional part of your life, man. It's just like there's this weird, you're in this weird area. Like you're, you're older than you've ever been. When you roll a fleck back on you as a 20 year old, you're like, that guy was a stupid dumb p. And now I'm so much smarter and wiser and I have more money. And so you there have that, but you're also only 27. You still have a lot of life in front of you, right? And then like I would say I agree with your girlfriend. You got to this point where you're like, I don't know, I bought this house, we've been dating for three years and you're like you should move in and you know, she was like making all these excuses and you're like, I don't need the money and blah, blah, blah. And like in that moment what you should have listened to was her saying I'm not ready to move in. And like it honestly doesn't, there doesn't need to be a reason. Right. Like I tell people, listen, like there's two reasons why people should move in with each other. One, you're engaged and or married in your, you know, like there's a, there is an actual commitment to each other or two, you're both just fucking excited about the idea of moving in with each other. That's it. Like it shouldn't be about rent a convenience, you know, and you were ready, but she clearly wasn't, man. You know, and like you didn't really want to listen to that.

[Bryce]

Where. Yeah, that's what, that's what screwed me up though is because she was so ready to buy a house. Like she was like, we need to start looking. Like, sure. We talked about it for months and months and months and then when it came time to like start looking, she just like backs off of it. And so I don't. There was a change when we broke up in May. There was a major change that happened. Something happened because the dynamic between me and her family completely shifted. I personally, I mean looking back at, you know, numerous different things happen. I think this has been going on for a while.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, maybe.

[Bryce]

And I mean I could. Yeah, yeah. I mean I've had several things happen out of coincidence.

[Nick Viall]

But if you want to break it down to its simplest form, my guess is, is that like at the end of the day you have a little bit of an age gap between you and her. You have a lot of good things going for you, right. And you became more established, more secure, you know. And like, listen, at least where you are right now, you're like, you're kind of ready to start your life, whatever that life is, right? She's not ready to start her life, you know, and despite everything, you know, and I'm, I'm guessing if I were trying to empathize with her, right? If I'm trying to be her friend for a moment just to understand her a little bit better. My guess is is that like you presented all the things that she, you know, that 19 year old her told herself that she should be looking for and yada, yada, yada, and you're a good guy with a good family and a good job and a nice house. And it's like, why? But like also maybe she's just like, I don't know, maybe independent. Her was just not ready to accept that life and she didn't really know how to communicate that to you. You know, you tried your best and like, I don't know, like you, you honestly, the way you told your story, it honestly sounds like you handle yourself pretty well. But like, you know, you're probably two relatively young people who couldn't figure this part out, right? Because like, you know, you live in this community that like still is rooted in family values, I'm guessing and correct me if I'm wrong, but like a lot of people, I'm guessing your communities relatively around this time we're settling down and yada yada yada. I saw a video of her. She's an attractive girl. You're a, you're an attractive guy. You guys are dealing with the fact that you know, a lot of people, community like sometimes settle down out of necessity. You're two people like, who have options, you know, you got things going for you, you know, and now you're in, in your 20s. It's like a very, it's a, it's a very like I don't, I don't, you don't even know, you don't know the answer. Should you be settling down now, you know, starting your life or as a pretty, you know, as a guy who has a lot of things going for him. I don't know, man. Like, I guess my point is if you would have told 27 year old me, you need to chill the out and you need to wait if some archangel came down and said, I got news for you buddy, now's not the time for you to get married, you know, now's not the time for you to settle down. You know, I'm not going to tell you when it's going to happen, you know, and I would have been like, what that, you know, everyone else in my life and all my buddies that are getting wifed up. I'm, I've dated everyone in Milwaukee that I think think I could have dated. Like I, you know what the man? Like I'm, I'm, I'm ready took me, you know, and I'm not saying you should wait till you're 40, but like I, you know, you don't know what life's gonna bring you, man. Like you don't know what, what opportunities and challenges and, and risks that you can take. I was a free agent, man, and I was able to say yes to A stupid show like the Bachelor. Then I was able to say yes to move to LA and, and, and quit my very good job to, like, chase a pipe dream. And it all seemed kind of fucking crazy. It was calculated, I had some backup plans. It was thought through. But, like, my life has changed, like, in the craziest possible way. And honestly, in a lot of ways, I feel like my life's just getting started. And a lot of that had to do with me not getting my way when I was 27, when it came to relationships, you know, and all I only tell you that story is to just be like, listen, man. Like, there's, you know, you're gonna really struggle with letting things happen as a man, as a guy who's just like, you know, you're 27. It's like, you know, you probably in a lot of ways feel like, fuck, man, I worked so hard to get this far, and now I want to start fucking taking control of my life, you know, and you're. And that, and you buying that house and you trying to move in with your girlfriend is like you trying to take control of your life. And you had the, you know, but maybe your life wasn't ready or didn't need to be taken control of, you know, and, you know, maybe you just had to let things play out. And my guess is like, she's giving you a lot of answers. And in this conversation you've, like, you even said, you're like, you know, your instincts, your gut tells you that maybe this isn't the first time she's pulled shit like this. It's just the first time you caught her. I don't think your girlfriend's a bad person. I think she's a bad communicator. I think she's a pretty girl who's got some options. And she is really, like, just not sure if she should, like, chase that, you know, you're safe and he's exciting. And I'm sure, you know, that's not something to, like, with your ego or whatever. And it doesn't matter. Like, it doesn't even matter who he is, right? Like, it's just something different. Right? And so she's not in a position to, like, have a healthy conversation, but you've made some good choices as it relates to how to handle that. And now, now what's you're with is like, you, you blocked her. You said off, goodbye, I don't want to talk to you. But she hasn't even. She hasn't really fought for you. And if I'M you, and I'm your ego that's gonna. With me, man. That's gonna. Like. And. And you're not being sure whether you still love her or you're ready to move on or not. Honestly, like, the fact that you haven't heard from you probably makes it more confusing, because I would. I'd be confused if I were you, and it would with me. And, like, personally, I think you're better off just continuing down the path that you're on, saying goodbye to this relationship. You know, the fact that she is in your proxy, to me, that just sucks, you know? But she is, like, nothing. Nothing's changed in her life, that's for sure. Right? You know what I'm saying? She's no less sure. You. You handled it pretty well. You were like, you. You trusted. You trusted your gut. You asked for clarity. She couldn't give you clarity. You said, all right, well, then I got my clarity. I'm looking for. I'm gonna make the decision for you. Right? And you did. And then she. Then she went to a baseball game with a dude, you know, like, fresh off of you, like, at. And it felt like a violation, but that was her answer, man. And. And she keeps giving you answers, which is to not really fight for the relationship or not really do any work. And, like, she. You are the stronger person in this relationship, and that should tell you something. And it's not to be, like. Not for your ego to be like, I'm better and more mature than her, and I'm. You know. But, like, you're not the same level. And, like, you can. And again, I. I'm not saying you're. You're meant to be single for 10 years, and you're supposed to go on the Bachelor or some crazy. I'm just. My advice to you is to just accept that maybe you are wrong about what your path should be and that you don't know what your path is.

[Bryce]

A good. Good point.

[Nick Viall]

And in the meantime, just make good decisions for yourself. Make healthy decisions. Invest in good people. Invest in your family. Read your Bible. Make sure that you are, you know, not letting this person affect you in ways that project that and help and, you know, the hurt people. Hurt people. Make sure that you're not hurting other people because she hurt you. And get to a good and healthy place where, like, listen, she is just one person, man. She seems like, you know, to someone, she might be a good catch, but, like, she's got some Figuring some shit out to do and, you know, good things. You got Good. You have a lot of eligible years left, man. Like, you do. And so. And I don't know what that looks like for you, but the more you can just be comfortable with being alone, be fine that you bought this house. Be open to the possibilities of what options you even have for this house. You can rent it, you can sell it. Who knows, man, you literally have your whole life in front of you, and you have a lot of good things going for you, and this is a bump in the road, but, like, everything that matters, you still have. You still got your family, you still got your job, you still got your health, you know, you still got your age, which, you know, you're only gonna get older, but, man, you are truly as eligible as you're ever gonna be. And honestly, you gotta have a good. You have a good 15 years left to be, like, prime eligible bachelor for literally any age group of women, and so might as well just take it, you know? I only say that to you right now because I don't want you to make some sort of, like, hasty decision to, like, convince yourself you need to go back to this girl, you know, for whatever reason.

[Bryce]

Yeah, I mean, I really. I've had. I think it's been a little over. I think it's been right at a month since this happened. There has been very little thought, like, should I go back to her? I won't reach out to her. Like, it's gonna be. You know, if she even wanted that, it would come with a lot of work of her having to apologize and, like, genuinely mean it. But, like, in the meantime, I'm not waiting. I'm not waiting for that. Like, I'm pushing myself forward.

[Nick Viall]

Good. Good.

[Bryce]

Every day.

[Nick Viall]

And the truth is, you don't run myself out there. Your ego wants to hear from her, I'm guessing. You know, but, like, you should. Like, she's not changing anytime soon. You know what I'm saying? Whatever that was stopping her from saying yes to you and yes to moving in and yes to moving forward and taking the next step. Like. Like, that hasn't changed in her life. You know what I'm saying?

[Bryce]

Correct.

[Nick Viall]

And. And she wasn't wrong. You know, that's a. That's the thing that we struggle with. Like, Right. Is that in the heat of the moment when you were trying to convince her or talk with her and you needed an answer, whatever was telling her I'm not ready was her truth. And she can love you and think you're great and know that a life with you would be pretty good and realize. I don't know, man, I just. I'm not ready to be a housewife.

[Bryce]

Yeah, I wasn't it.

[Nick Viall]

You know, I'm not saying you're pressuring her at all.

[Bryce]

That worked up. Yeah, you know, I wasn't worked up on it either. It was like. Okay, that's. That's fine. Like, I'm, you know, I'm patient. I have patience.

[Nick Viall]

No, I know, but like, you know, like you said though, once, sometimes a relationships to a certain point and like, I think two people act like, you know, like, in terms, what are we doing here? We have been dating for three and a half years. Where is it going? You know, like, so it's a. There's no wrong answer. Like, the, the only thing that really sucks is that like, she just was like too cowardice and too immature to just give you an honest answer. And like, I don't know, man. I'm not. I'm not ready for this type of relationship. And yeah, I think we. I think we need some distance. But she didn't have the guts to do it, so you did it for her. And then she took the easy way out. Yeah, and. And, and got a little sloppy. And she wasn't stupid. You know what I'm saying? I'm not saying she went to get caught, but like you said, like, she, she went.

[Bryce]

She was doing.

[Nick Viall]

She knew what she was doing. And, and maybe there's a part of her that kind of wants you, you know, maybe she doesn't want to be lying. You know, like, most, very few people are like narcissistic sociopaths who just don't give a fuck. They're just. They just don't. They lack the maturity or the emotional whatever the fuck that like, allows them to just say, you know what? Fuck, I'm scared as fuck. I. I don't know. I don't know if I'm gonna regret this, but I do know right now I'm not ready. And yeah, we should probably take some real part. And I wish I could be friends with you. And I wish I could call you every day, but I know that's not fair to you and we should break up. And I'm really sorry that I made promises to you about getting married to you and, and if I, you know, but like, I'm. I'm sorry and I up. And I know you're going to hate me, but like, this is what I need for myself. And she didn't have the guts to do that. She went to a baseball game instead. Yep.

[Bryce]

If if she had done that, it would have been a diff. Like seeing it would have been. Still sucked, but I guess a lot more like easy to swallow.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. Who. You don't, honestly, you don't even know that. Honestly, you really don't know that.

[Bryce]

Yeah. Yeah, I guess you're right. I mean that's just a hindsight, just your hindsight thought. But it's just the fact of stringing me along, blowing my phone up, blowing my mom's turn up, wondering what I'm doing, all this and it's like, you know, why do that?

[Nick Viall]

Listen. That's right. And do yourself a favor by giving her the grace of just saying honestly, it's like she wasn't capable of it. And you're not making excuses for her because you're not begging for her to take her back. She just, she had some growing up to do. I was too blind to see it because I, you know, I decided that I wanted certain things and honestly, you know, man, like when we're in love, man, like we just, we kind of bulldoze through things because we want to get our way and, and, and you know, and like, so I would just give her some grace so you can let go of the anger and the hate or whatever and. Because that just keeps you emotionally invested, right? Like that's the. That like when you're driving like you're in your car now that you just go down this mental rabbit hole, get angry and you start asking yourself some questions and you're just like, yeah man, like there was that one time, was she cheating on me then, man, like honestly, who gives a. Now you have your answer. You know that, you know, regardless of the messy details, your girlfriend just wasn't as emotionally ready for what you guys talked about as she claimed to be. And whether and, and it wasn't. It probably wasn't malicious. She probably thought she did and she was wrong and maybe a little self centered and a little immature about it and she hurt you as a result. But like she's not a bad person. She's just not your person, especially right now. And this is just how you got here. So like let her figure out her say goodbye to her. If there's a future for you two, I can confidently say it's not in the next year, you know, and she might need to date other guys or whatever, do her thing and I don't know, maybe, maybe in a year you guys run into each other again and maybe she's ready to be like, I was really shitty as a girlfriend. To you. And I'm really sorry and I just want to say that. And maybe there's a twinkle in each other's eyes and I don't know, maybe something happens then. But like, I really confidently can say that chances are you guys need some real distance, some real separation, some real personal closure. And not closure you're going to get from her. That's you just being like, you know what? We are done, you know, and this chapter's over. And if there is a chapter for us in the beginning, that's a chapter that really needs to like, play itself out in the future. Because right now I, this, this person needs to figure her out and I can't be here on the sidelines as her friend to help her.

[Bryce]

Yeah. Another part I want to add in that you could maybe give me some advice on. So like I told you, I didn't reach out to her, text her, call her. Nothing. Like nothing at all. And so I ran into her dad and I was always very close with her dad. And so I just went out. I mean, we were at a golf course and I ran into him and I just went up to tell him, like, thanks for all you did for me. Really appreciated everything you did and hated that I couldn't, you know, talk to you before then all this happened. He has the nerve to basically put his finger in my face telling me to quit disrespecting his daughter, quit making up these lies and rumors. I mean, he went on to tell me that our relationship was over three months ago and had the nerve to tell me that you're in his or you're in hers. The problem. Sorry, say that again.

[Nick Viall]

He told you that you're in hers. Relationship was over three months ago or you're in his.

[Bryce]

Me and hers. He said, I hate to break it to you, but Yalls relationship ended three months ago. Which, I mean, I didn't see that. I don't, I don't know how that, that, how that's possible, but that he's not making that up on his own. I just, I know him well enough. He's not making that up. That came from somewhere.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Bryce]

And so I went on to talk to him and he's saying that I'm bad mouthing her, which I'm not. I'm not. I mean, I have friends asking me, you know, where's she at? Where's she at? And I just, I straight up told.

[Nick Viall]

Him, you have the right to. You have the right to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

[Bryce]

And so.

[Nick Viall]

But I guarantee you she does not see it that way. You know what I'm saying? She obviously is operating in semantics, you.

[Bryce]

Know, and you say, you know, you bring up the narcissism thing. I'm not gonna be the one to diagnose somebody with that at all. But he certainly has those traits and what's getting back to me and genuinely, like, I don't give a fuck what she says at this point. I really don't. But for her to go around telling people that I cheated on her when there's. There's no evidence. I've never cheated on her. I've always been loyal to her. Dragging my name through the fucking mud. I don't care what she's saying, but I do care that it's out there, if that makes sense.

[Nick Viall]

Who is she saying it to, other than her dad?

[Bryce]

All of her friends. And we, and we share a pretty, I mean, a pretty unique circle of friends. So, like, it's pretty obvious what side people are picking. I don't give a what side people pick. I really don't. I mean, I know it really genuinely happened. It's just that it's like. And what, what is my reputation?

[Nick Viall]

What is she saying?

[Bryce]

Just telling people that I cheated on her, that I treated her like, that I was an addict. I, I mean, I'm not addicted to anything. Like literally anything. I don't do drugs. I barely drink socially. I gamble here and there. I, I mean, I don't know what addiction I would have. Like, you can hook me up to a lie detector test for all this. I mean, you're getting to the fullest extreme to protect herself.

[Nick Viall]

You're getting your answer, man. Like, and listen, you know, you're right, you're. You do yourself no favors by diagnosing her. Like, listen, she's very selfish, right? Lot of, a lot of 20something people are and quite honestly should be. I don't. Not this way. Her dad's certainly going to have her back.

[Bryce]

Totally get that.

[Nick Viall]

You're going around telling people she cheated on you and she's like this, broke up with me two days before that. I didn't cheat on him. You know, like, that's our truth. Guarantee it. Right? And I get why your truth is very different. You know, you're this like, bro, we've been going back and forth. You've been my girlfriend for three years. This is like another one of your things. And like, regardless if you cheated on me or not, like, you, I don't know what, what it felt like in the moment. I bet it felt Pretty shitty. And you give some analogy or whatever, but, like, it hurt you, you know, that's what mattered and she knew it would hurt you. And like, you know, semantics about cheating or whatever. So, like, my advice to you is to stop talking about her period.

[Bryce]

Yeah, that really does do a lot.

[Nick Viall]

Who gives a. Who gives a what people think anymore about whether you cheated or she. You're broken up, man. And you know, and if people on a one on one situation want to ask you questions and whether you know and I understand your reputation matters to you, but like, I. I'm guessing most people don't give a. And I'm guessing most people see this as messy gossip. And if it doesn't affect your job and doesn't affect your relationship with your family or doesn't affect your relationship with your closest friends, then it. It just don't matter. And, well, that's.

[Bryce]

That's what I'm worried about is it is getting back to my job.

[Nick Viall]

Okay?

[Bryce]

Not that it's gonna affect me, but people I work with are connected to her family in one way or another, and that's being brought up. And like, again, you know, that's where I kind of have a problem. That's why I was saying I don't give a fuck if she tells it to her little friends, whatever. But when it's starting to affect family, friend, family, close friends and job, like you said, then it becomes a problem.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, I don't. Do you think it's gotten the point where you can just like, ways raise the right flag and just be like, listen, man, like, I know I haven't talked to you since. Why are you saying some of this, Stu? And then maybe she's like, well, you're saying about me, and be like, you know, whatever I said and however I feel about the end of our relationship, it really is what it is. But like, you know, just be like, fine, I'll stop. Like, I don't even want to debate with you whether we think. But like, you guys can sit there and debate whether she cheated on you, but if she's literally saying out of pocket things like you have an addiction, and you're like, I don't know, I went to the casino a couple times and I got drunk once. You know, you can be like, why. Why are you saying stuff like this with like, why are you trying to hurt me? You know, like, why? A small silver lining. Maybe this is like her way of getting your fucking attention because you blocked her. And I'm not saying you should bring her back in your life, but I don't know if you really think it's affecting. It's getting the point where it could affect things that matter. Maybe in the gentlest way. You just wave that flag and just say, can we move on from each other's lives? I, you know, I don't want to be, you know, obviously I'm hurt. I care about you. Like, I don't like how things ended, but, like, what I don't like why. Why has it gotten to this point? And can we just stop up whatever it is that we think are each other's are doing and just not badmouth each other? You know, I don't. I mean, do you think. Do you think that we'll get through to her?

[Bryce]

I can do that. I can definitely do that. I mean, I've kind of come to terms with it anyway, and I've. Like I said, I've ran into her quite a few times, and I'm prepared to have that conversation. Like I said, I don't want to debate. I'm not trying. I'm not here to argue. Like, let's just end it on the. The most civil terms we can possibly do and just, Just move on. Like you said, I'm tired of talking about it. I really am.

[Nick Viall]

If you were.

[Bryce]

I sent this message in a couple weeks ago.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Bryce]

So I followed through with it anyway. But, like, I genuinely. Other than that, like, in the last week, I've haven't talked about it at all.

[Nick Viall]

That's good. Well, that's progress. So listen, if you're really on a path to healing, like, the best way to, like, listen, you reaching out, to be clear, like, has its purpose. And that purpose is to diffuse whatever drama so that this, you know, doesn't trickle into, like, things that actually can affect your life. Like, obviously this is affecting your life because it's emotional and she. You up. But, like, it's one thing to have heartbreak and another thing for it to, like, bleed into other aspects of your life. Right? So you have a purpose here. Right. And if your purpose is to just simply diffuse it, nothing else matters, then the best way to connect with her or get through to her is to like, like, honestly tell her what she wants to hear, whatever that is, like, and you know her best. And, and maybe I think I. Well, guess what I'm saying is, you know, you. You attract bees better with honey than with vinegar. Right? I'm sure you've heard that saying. Well, I don't think you should say anything to try to get her back. You can say things like listen man, like I just, if she says like are you talking about me? Blah, blah, blah. Don't say because you cheated on me. Just be like, yeah, listen man, I was, I was really heartbroken that I, you know, our relationship was over and obviously like there was a lot of hurt and I'm not trying to point the finger, but I am just. We should stop, you know, and just tell her that you're gonna miss her. Tell her that she was a great girlfriend. Tell her that she, you know, that just compliment her, you know, just like put your ego aside and just tell her what you know because that shows strength. Like the more emotional mature person who is above this bullshit is gonna just be able to just fucking, you know. I remember like when my, When I was 28 years old, my then fiance cheated on me, right? And she, you know, very similar to like you. There are rumors and like I don't know what exactly happened, but emotionally, physically, I don't know. Some went down. That much I know is clear, right? You know, like. And then finally it me up a little bit. Like we live in the same town, like. And then I got a new girlfriend a few months later. She ended up getting engaged to this guy. Then she's out on her bachelorette party. And I was at that point I was pretty much over healed and good, right? And then like my, my then girlfriend was bartending and like I would always go to her bar when me and my buddies and it's like, hey, my girlfriend's bartender. I'm going to fucking free drinks and have fun, you know, because I'm not going to go hit on girls. I'll just like hang out with my girlfriend while she's bartender, right? And then my ex walks in at our bachelor party knowing where my then girlfriend works. And I was so chill and so like above it and so like not triggered her because I knew like I knew what she was doing and I was like, oh man, congratulations. I'm really happy for you guys. It's gonna be great. And this. And she just starts crying because like she, she came in to with me and I was like so good and so like, you know, and I was happy for her and she didn't even know how to process it, you know. And I was just like that's wild, you know, and so just tell her what she wants to hear, man. You, she is this, this she is reacting to something you're doing, right? I'm guessing, you know, when you, you said like I ran into her. She acts like I don't exist. I, I'm. Do you, do you also act like she doesn't exist?

[Bryce]

No. So, so I did. So backstory. I work out at a gym around the corner from my house, and she goes every morning to get this, like, nutrition, whatever it is. And so the first day I walked out, she was walking in and we just, like, looked at each other and turned away. And then a few days later, it happened. I just smiled and waved. So ever since then, I just smile and wave every time. She doesn't do anything back?

[Nick Viall]

She doesn't smile away?

[Bryce]

No. She acts like I did something to her now, you know, so it's like, whatever. But I'm more than emotionally stable and okay to have a conversation with her and be completely, completely fine.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, be careful, you know, just. I would go in just knowing that it sounds like, I don't know, she's, I don't know what's going on in her head. But, like, I would, I would be careful. I would be very self aware of everything that's going on. You know, don't put yourself in a position where she can make up anything else and just wave that white flag and just say, listen, like, I just, I hate that it's gotten this way. I don't think we should be friends. You know, I care. I, I, I love you too much to try to be your friend, but I hate that it's gotten this way. Can we just be like, can we wish each other well? You know, and if you want to, if you, if, if you want to talk about anything. I'm sorry if I blocked you. I'm sorry if whatever. You know, I don't think you, I don't honestly think. I hope she doesn't follow through with this, but just, just try to be someone who's like, make her feel guilty about talking.

[Bryce]

Just, just try to like 100.

[Nick Viall]

Just try to like, bring her off that ledge. Just be.

[Bryce]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Make her feel bad about being mean. Because right now there, there's a good chance that her, this behavior is like, trying to get your attention. You know, granted, she said you waved and like, you know, but you wave and smiling. Like, I don't know, maybe she sees that as you being a smart ass or waving and you're okay. Like, she wants, I don't. She wants something from you. I don't know what it is.

[Bryce]

She wants a reaction. Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Bryce]

I mean, it's, it's to the point now where, like, I mean, this is kind of irrelevant, but the only social media that I have is LinkedIn just for work. Work reasons. And like, I see her checking it every day now. Like, I have it where I can see who views my profile. So she's like doing that. She's driving out of her way right by my house. This isn't the first time it's happened in the last few weeks. It's like, look, if you want to stop and have a conversation like you, you, me over. But I still, like, I'm. I still have no ill will towards you, you know, Like, I can still.

[Nick Viall]

You got a little. And that's okay. You're allowed to. You're a human being. So I think it's okay. I think you should acknowledge you're still angry. You're not over it. Yeah, that's okay. It's only been a month. And I think you could still try to be like, like, just be honest with her and just try to let go of the anger. Just be like, I'm. I am angry. But like, I still love you, even though I don't think we should be together. And it still hurts. And I, I don't, you know, man, like, but like, why are we making our lives even harder than need to be? You know, like, can we just. Can we not, you know, Like, I don't, you know, admit it. Like, I don't. Like, man, I. Even if it's not true, just tell her you think about her. It's probably is true. But like, you know, you're. This is about self preservation. But like, if, if you keep working on yourself, man, you're really honest with yourself and you make healthy decisions, you'll get through this. And you know, I don't know where my ex is now these days, but I can confidently say whether it was her or the ex before her or the ex after. Like, I'm really good or happy with how I made choices versus them. And I'm not saying I am even a twinkle in their eye anymore. But like, I definitely feel like I won the breakups, you know, and that was because, like, I dealt with my. In a way that I, you know, was able to like, move on where I didn't. Like, when I did run into them, I. I felt it. I felt good. I felt emotionally regulated. I could honestly be there for them emotionally without it emotionally affecting me. You're not there yet, right? Like when you're in the relationship, when you were trying to be there for your girlfriend, when she was struggling hard for you to fully be there for her because you're all very confused why she won't move in with you. And you're trying to be there for her, but you need her to be there for you. When I was running into my ex girlfriends, you know, after I had moved on, I didn't need to be there for them anymore. I didn't need. I certainly didn't need them to be there for me. Right. I was good. You know, I was fine. I didn't give a. I. I knew that as soon as I was saying goodbye to them. I mean, like, whatever, I'd maybe tell my friend, hey, I ran into so and so, but it wouldn't, like, like, cannibalize my day. And when you're in that position, you have so much power and you have so much control and, like, you just feel, like, above it and you're good and you can, you know, it's a power that you don't want to manipulate. Use, because you kind of manipulate. You can manipulate. You can. You can. You feel like this out of body of experience where you recognize, like, you know, you in the past would have been all up, but now you can literally say things because, you know, you're just trying to. You're just trying to help her. Her. You're trying to help her get to the place that you're at. And honestly, you don't even mind if she gets over you because, you know, you're not, you know, a lot of people. It's like, I. I don't want to date you, but I still want you not over me. So. And that's kind of a little bit where she is right now. Like, she probably is still enjoying her freedom, but she just wants to know that you're still up over. So, like, give her what she wants.

[Bryce]

Oh, yeah. Yep. Yep.

[Nick Viall]

You know, let her know that you're an absolute hot mess of whatever and that you're sad, but you don't, you know, I don't know what you want is this. You want. You want it to not bleed into other healthy aspects of your life.

[Bryce]

Correct? That's it. Yep.

[Nick Viall]

All right. Was this helpful?

[Bryce]

Yeah. Yeah, dude, I appreciate it. Seriously.

[Nick Viall]

Cool, man. Well, sorry you're going through this. I relate to you, man. It's. I really think this could be a. A. I was around your age when similar happened like this to me. And I look back at that time. My life is a very pivotal time in my life. I, I look back on that life as a time where I, I, I think to myself, I actually finally learned who I was as a person, as a man, as an adult. I'm sure you've thought that before, but I promise you, like, you're gonna have other periods of your life where you're gonna be like, whoa, man. Like, that was. Damn, I was stupid when I was 27. You know, you might even say that about. About 30 year old you, like 40 year old you is gonna look back, you know, like, you should always be learning. You should always be growing as if you're a finished product at 27. You're. You're not, you know, you're. You're just. You're just a fool. So just keep. Just keep being willing and being open. Let life happen. Be open to keep. Keep your circle healthy. Keep. Keep, you know, take risk, but make healthy, calculated risks and good choices. Be patient. Will work out, man. I promise.

[Bryce]

Yeah, for sure, man. Thank you. I really appreciate that.

[Nick Viall]

All right, take care. Appreciate the call. Always great hearing from our. Our men. It's honestly no different, man. Like, we're all human beings who are just trying to, like, we. We're all trying to, like, make our. Our life movie the best possible outcome in general. And. And we're all just figuring it out at the same time. So that's kind of where you're at right now. Yep.

[Bryce]

It's a pivotal point. But like you said, a lot. A lot of good can happen from this, so. Looking forward to that.

[Nick Viall]

Absolutely. All right, man, appreciate the call. If you're. If you're down, I'd love an update, like in a month from now where things are at that.

[Bryce]

Yeah, for sure, man. I'll reach back out.

[Nick Viall]

I appreciate you. All right, talk to you later.

[Bryce]

Thanks, man. Y'all take care.

[Nick Viall]

All right. Bye.

[Justin]

Bye.

[Nick Viall]

This episode of Love House is sponsored by Better Health. It's all about investment, people. You need to invest in your mental health. We get it. Like, you want to look good naked, you want to. You want to exercise. I understand. But, like, if you're going to spend that much money on gym memberships and meals and things like that, like, to be healthy, that's great. But if your mental health is not where it needs to be, like, what are we doing here, people? It really, like, changes people's lives by getting it out, talking about your anxiety, your problems, things that are just weighing you down. There's nothing I talk about. More on this show is. Is being mindful of where your thoughts and energy is going, because it's not unlimited. And we waste so much time ruminating about things that weigh us down. Let that stuff go. Get it out. Talk to a mental health professional like, Someone that you can find at Better Help and we get it. Therapy can be inconvenient, it can be expensive, and it can be intimidating. But all those things better Help help. They're working with new therapists every day to help ensure that you're going to find a therapist that you connect with. And you can keep switching therapists with BetterHelp until you land on a therapist that you feel great about. It's at your convenience. All you really need is a phone, a device, a computer, something to call in if you can even not even do video to video if you just want to do voice to voice and you want to keep that anonymity, no problem with Better Help. And it's more affordable than in person therapy. So it really gets away of all those barriers that you've been telling yourself that have stopped you from maybe getting into therapy today. With over 30, 000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. And it's super convenient and it will change your life. Your well being is worth it. Visit betterhelp.com v I a l l today to get 10 off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H e l p.com v I a.

[Hannah]

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[Nick Viall]

How's it going?

[Justin]

I'm great. My name is Hannah and I am 34 years old.

[Nick Viall]

How can I help, Hannah?

[Justin]

I don't know how to handle my twin sister's affairs.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, your twin sister? Are you guys identical? Not that that matters. I'm just.

[Justin]

No, we're not identical, but we are extremely close. Probably just about as close as twins can be.

[Nick Viall]

Where are we in the affair process? Is it ongoing? Who knows about it? Give me the deets. So, like, where. What are we dealing with here?

[Justin]

To my knowledge, they started the affair sometime early last summer. I think it was building a little bit before then. My sister actually left her husband for this guy. And then she went back to her husband, and my understanding was that they had broken up. But then, you know, because she confides in me, they got back together, then they broke up again, then they got back together. So I.

[Nick Viall]

Who's breaking up and getting back together? Her and her husband. Sorry.

[Justin]

She and the affair partner.

[Nick Viall]

Okay. And how much, if any, did the husband know about the back and forth?

[Justin]

He had his suspicions, but they've been together for so long that it just like it couldn't be true.

[Nick Viall]

So does he know anything yet? Like, does he know why she left?

[Justin]

Now he knows. Yeah. Now he knows that she had an affair. He hopes and believes and is telling himself that it is over, but it's not. I think it's over in a lot of ways, but I think that they work together and I think that there's still a lot of like, wink, wink, but like, you're still my love kind of like situation going on.

[Nick Viall]

And what's the other person's situation?

[Justin]

The affair partner? They said they're co workers. He's been divorced several times. He is much, much older. I've met him. Not a cool guy. And he had a long term girlfriend that he broke up with for my sister.

[Nick Viall]

Why? Does your sister have kids or anything like that?

[Justin]

Nope, no kids. Not yet. They were planning on doing that soon, but that, you know, this put a wrench and everything.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, well, how long have they been married for?

[Justin]

They've been married for. They had their. They would have had their anniversary and their fifth anniversary in December, but they've been together since my sister was 19. That's like her only, you know, person she's ever had.

[Nick Viall]

Interesting. They never got divorced, though. They just separated.

[Justin]

They separated and now they're like, I'll tell you all about it now. They're, you know, she sort of moved back in and, you know, it's Very messy.

[Nick Viall]

So what do you say to your sister right now? Like, what's your relationship status with her? And like, how open do you guys talk about this?

[Justin]

Open. So open. Too open. It's a huge burden on me. She told me in the beginning, before I knew that it was going to become a full fledged affair. She told me, you know, that she had, you know, you know, in a fit of passion, you know, slept with someone else. So this would have been just the second person she's ever had sex with. You know, she's only ever been with her husband. And I didn't wanna panic or freak out, even though I'm pretty tight with my brother in law, I don't know, didn't know how to act. So she told me and I kind of let it go, let it be like, okay, well, you keep that a secret. Then it happened again. Then it happened again. And by the end of last summer.

[Nick Viall]

Why'd you tell her to keep it a secret?

[Justin]

Because my sister and I have such a strange bond, which is kind of like, like, you know, no matter what you, we were there for each other.

[Nick Viall]

What do you, what is there for each other mean to you when you.

[Justin]

Can'T count on anyone else to not judge you, to not, to not punish you, to not whatever. Like it's just your open ears. And that's always been our relationship. So I, you know, I wasn't going.

[Nick Viall]

To question, I guess, like how you know, know. So here's what I'm hearing from you. Like you said, like, you and your obviously twin sister, not surprisingly, are very close, very connected. And like you said, you know, your, your relationship is unique and there's this kind of unspoken or maybe sometimes spoken bond that you guys are always there for each other. And there for each other means you guys can tell each other secrets and without judgment or shame or simply just listen, without offering any criticism, critiques, or tough love or hard advice. You're just simply there to listen, I guess, in some ways validate and approve of, of things even if you don't. Would that, would that be accurate?

[Justin]

Well, that's like, my gosh. Yeah. Nail on the head with that.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. You know, and I understand obviously you calling because your feelings internally have changed, but you're grappling with how to relay that message to your sister. Right? That's what I'm hearing.

[Justin]

I'm grappling with how, I mean, I've been. Our relationship has changed, especially in recent months and even just as immediately as, you know, when I, I wrote in. But I'M what I'm grappling the most with is recent, you know, kind of like, you know, beginning, you know, about a month or two ago of just disgust and anger with my sister. And I'm worried that I won't ever be able to, you know, rebuild that kind of, you know, relationship with her.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, well, you know, that's certainly a valid concern, but I don't know if we're quite there yet. But I think, I guess my question to you is, and maybe, you know, it's a bit rhetorical because obviously you're communicating your problem, but, like, how do you feel like this dynamic with your sister has helped your relationship with her as you both have gotten older in adult life? And how has that relationship and that dynamic helped you guys as individuals, being each other's closest, confident.

[Justin]

I think it's helped her a lot. And I've done a lot of reflecting on this lately.

[Nick Viall]

You think it's helped me? Well, how. And again, I'm not, I'm not here to judge either of you in terms of, like, how you've helped each other, but, like, do you think it's helped her if you are her. If you are her closest support system confidant? And again, I'm in no way blaming you, but like, she has come to you and over the course of. Sounds like this has been going on over a year, over a course of a long, extended period of time. She is operating in a way that you very much don't approve of. It's affecting your relationship. From an outsider looking in, she is blowing up her life. And now maybe her current husband and her high school sweetheart or whatever, maybe they're just like, not, not each other's person long term, and that's definitely a possibility. But whatever she decides, she's clearly going about it in the most toxic way that is not, not only affecting her immediate relationship with a person that regardless of whether she wants to spend the rest of her life with him, she is hurting this man in ways that, like, we quite, we. We currently don't know the damage that she is doing or will have done to this man. His psyche, his emotional health, his ability to move on, heal, whatever. Like, she's only giving a fuck about herself. And it's gotten to the point where right now you are afraid that your, your relationship with your sister may never be the same going forward. So again, repeating that question. How do you feel like this current dynamic has helped her? I mean, because you're not a therapist, right? Like, she doesn't pay you to give her therapy. And she's not paying you for her mental health, but like, and you know, but like, clearly you listen and you're there for her and I'm sure she gets things off her chest, but it's not resulting in her making healthy decisions for herself or her relationship with you or her relationship with her husband. And so, you know what I'm saying, it's like, yeah, totally in my mind. This, this relationship dynamic isn't serving either of you right. And it's become a bit, you know, well intentioned, no less. But I don't know, to me, being there for people, especially in adult life, requires more than just, you know, this understanding that we will simply be. That we will listen without any shame or judgment. Judgment. You're a human being, so you can promise your sister all you want that you won't judge her. And you may do your best to hide how you feel, but you know, you are judging her, right? You, you internally, you know, and whether your sister knows that or not, or feels that or not, it is happening. And so you are in a way not being honest with your sister either about how you feel about her actions. And so now you have this dynamic where you've kind of agreed to just listen without judgment, but like, ultimately you're judging her inside, you're feeling more and more disconnected from your sister. You know, again, you know what I'm saying? So it's like if you're looking for answers of how to approach this right, because I'm guessing you feel like you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. And like here you have this dynamic with your sister, this relationship, this understanding, this unspoken bond with your twin sister, and then she's also like, making these choices and you feel like, well, what do I do? You know, like I. Do I completely change the dynamic or, you know, do I address this or how do I handle that? And I'm here to say, like, this dynamic has stopped working for you guys as you guys have grown into adulthood and discovered yourselves and, and realized maybe things that you want. Clearly your sister is discovering herself into her early 30s as someone who's been with one man her whole life. And while I empathize with like, how that might be affecting her, these feelings, she's clearly making choices and covering for her choices and justifying her choices. And she has you aiding and abetting her choices. While you don't necessarily want to be doing that, that sounds like what you're doing. And that has indirectly caused you two to become further apart. And so I think when you look at it that way, I hope that makes you feel less obligated to this dynamic that you are worried about changing.

[Justin]

Well, yeah, I mean, absolutely. And, and, and the fact of the matter is that, I mean, things have changed. Like now we, I mean, the last weeks and months, you know, probably for the. Especially since the last like month or so.

[Nick Viall]

What.

[Justin]

Since she's moved back in with her husband, she still comes to me with some of the same problems she came to me about before. And now I'm giving, like, I mean, I feel so mean to her and I am. I'm telling her what's what I'm telling her everything. I'm telling. She's like, she doesn't have that in me anymore. And furthermore, out of nostalgia, what are.

[Nick Viall]

You telling her right now?

[Justin]

So she keeps saying that she's ended all contact with the affair partner with whom she works. They're both school teachers together in a small school. They're both history teachers. And they. He's one, you know, door down. So he. She has sworn on like a, you know, a stack of Bibles a million times. It's over. And then in a moment of like, you know, panic, she'll tell me, well, it's over. But also like he did, you know, there was like this kind of like whisper of like, but, you know, but just like, I'm gonna work things out with him maybe, but then we'll see in the future, you know, kind of like this subterfuge and who knows? So I've just been very, very, very angry at her. Very, like verbally angry at her. And, and one important thing to note is that since about January I've been speaking on the phone with my brother in law, her husband, just about every day as kind of like his confidant, as they kind of get back together. And I've never felt closer to him. I have never felt more of a responsibility to him. I am more aware, I think, than my sister is of his pain without the. In the immediate. They have their communication. Communication's terrible with me. I've been like this kind of translator between the two of them. My boyfriend thinks that I'm like, you know, I mean, it's like, it's almost like I'm like trading, you know, international, like stocks or something. I'm just like constantly on the phone with one, then the other, then the other.

[Nick Viall]

And do either of them know that?

[Justin]

Meetings between. They both know that. They both know that I am like, yeah, okay. I mean, they both know that I'm like the third party in this crazy, like threesome of reconciliation. It's, I mean, like, it's wild. I mean, like right now, I just got a text from him. Like, any news, any word? Like, here's what I feel today.

[Nick Viall]

Is, are, is he in therapy? Are they in therapy?

[Justin]

They're. They, they. So they, before they separated, they started therapy and. But it was really just a means for my sister to tell him what's what and that they were going to separate. And now that they're kind of like, you know, they're living together again and by all, you know, official, like, accounts, they're trying. They're getting back together. They are together again. They go like twice a week now to the same therapist. And they've had a lot of good, like, breakthroughs and stuff, but it's just, you know, it's a lot of my brother in law expressing like, you know, what the. You hurt me so much. Like, this is what, you know, like, even before I found out about the affair, you were so cruel and distant and I didn't know. And then it's her just being like, everyone's mad at me, you know, so it's just like, so like my opinion of her, my respect for her, you know, it's. I mean, I'm just so tight with him.

[Nick Viall]

Is your sister in individual therapy?

[Justin]

Oh, no, no, She, I mean, they, they go, she goes. She meets with their couples therapist individually, I think, like once every week or every two weeks. They both do and then they come together. It's like part of like the.

[Nick Viall]

Sure, okay.

[Justin]

How they're doing it, but it's not. But it's a. But it's like, but it's still part of the couple's therapy, not like her own.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, it sounds like maybe your sister has a lot to unpack as an individual. Maybe. I mean, you know, like, she's obviously like the victim in a situation where she's the destroyer, you know, like, what, what can I help you with? Like, where are you at?

[Justin]

Yeah. So. Yeah, and I figured you, you would ask that because usually when it's like this, you know, messy, that's the question you ask. But I, so I, My, my biggest concern is that I want to, which is just because it's my own shit, but I'm. My biggest concern is making sure that I can. I, you know, love and respect my sister again in the future. Trying to. Even though she's done, we're doing a bad thing because, you know, as we know, like people do bad things. And it doesn't have to, but. And now that I'm so involved, it's harder for me to, you know, feel that way. And also, I just really need her to, to focus on her relationship with her or husband or not or break up and leave me out of it. These are questions that almost feels like breaking a twin bond. Like a, like a pact we've always had where I have to be, like, no, this time, for the first time in our big years, you know, like I, I'm, I can't do this anymore. It's killing me.

[Nick Viall]

Well, you know, that was kind of what was coming to mind. My question I was going to ask you was like, how often have you really told your sister no?

[Justin]

Next to, next to never, you know?

[Nick Viall]

Well, sometimes, you know, listen, I, I have a young daughter, she's 13 months. Love her unconditionally, you know, I don't know, know not to. Not that it's a competition, but I bet I love her just as much as you love her, your sister. Right. And like part of loving my daughter, you know, is, is I'm gonna have to tell her no. You know, lots of times. Yeah, you know, the whole like, oh, you know, you're. She'll give me the eyes and whatever. But like, you know, saying no to someone doesn't mean you don't love them.

[Justin]

I feel like to her it almost would.

[Nick Viall]

That's her problem. But I'm telling you objectively, regardless of what you think or what your sister thinks, thinks it's a fact that you can love someone deeply, care about them deeply and tell them no. And I think it's a little toxic for anyone to think otherwise. And if you feel like you can't show love to someone you say no to, then something about that relationship is wrong or needs to be fixed or broken.

[Justin]

Her therapist, my brother in law told me, because that's like, yeah, again, like I'm way too, I'm so involved that I know things my sister doesn't know that he said and my brother in law doesn't know that she said it's all like this like crazy like game of telephone. But he told me that it came out in therapy that, you know, the therapist believes that our relationship is in a certain way a little bit too intimate and that, you know, it's also.

[Nick Viall]

Kind of like whose relationship you and your sister are? You, you and your, you and your brother in law.

[Justin]

Oh, sorry, my relationship with my sister and. Or her basically her relationship with me rather. I want to clarify that. Well, it's her relationship with the church. Whereas her relationship, her intimate relationship, her most intimate relationship should be with him and maybe never was and like, you know, certainly isn't now. So I just thought that was interesting that that's what the therapist said.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, I could see that. I mean there's something going on with your relationship. The more you talk about it. That seems off to me. Well intentioned no less, but like off and like not serving either of you. And now here you are playing therapist. You're not a thera therapist. And you can be a good friend and certainly a great sister and a good sister in law and you can have the best intentions but like also be careful, right. I'm sure you feel it too. You feel too involved, too lost. You're like not sure who outside you're on. If you're in any side at all, you're connecting with your brother in laws in ways that honestly your sister should probably be connecting with. It's just all very confusing. Not to mention, I can't imagine that you're. You said you have a boyfriend. Like this is gonna, this just, this is a virus, a toxic virus that just spreads like a disease, you know?

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And you are, you are part, you are, you've, you've caught the cold, so to speak. And so again you can be well intentioned but like you are caught up in this, you are part of this drama and I think you need to be very careful as well as tension and you know, and like obviously that's why you're calling in. You're asking for help, I commend you for doing that. But like, you know, my advice is just also be careful. I think you need to start sending some healthy boundaries with both of them. More specifically your sister.

[Justin]

Actually my brother in law invited me to attend just because I'm already so involved anyway. And I come up in every conversation that they have with their therapist. They invited me to come to therapy a few times with them, which was kind of like when I reached out to you. But I know that as I said when I wrote in too, aside from the obvious boundary issues, my twin sister is, she's been. The things she's done, the things she continues to do every day. I, you know, I'm saying this in kind of like the stupid Internet y way, but I'm like narcissist, like sure. And no empathy, no, no, like, like absolutely nothing. Like the, you know, she will like fall on her knees crying about how her affair partner must be feeling right now. And then when I see her with her husband as she like, like I helped her move back some stuff the other day out of like her apartment that she was renting. She like she was like begrudgingly. I had to like make her move that stuff. She was crying all over herself. We brought in like three Tupperware things. So then. And like she walked in the door, placed it on there and kind of just like I'm here. No, no, everything's fine, everything's fine. And then he and I made like, did our best to like make like like you know, some levity, some small talk or something. But just like she can't even. And she's like just the cruelty. And it's not even just like I'm not calling in to help them. She can call in someday to talk about how her relationship is, but just I watch that and my jaw is on the ground and I'm just like. And there's nothing like the cruelty, just the obvious lack of empathy. And when I speak to my brother in law about it, I can't even deny it. I'm just like, this is not someone we've ever known to be so cold. And I just, just if I don't. I've always felt, you know, since I was a child and especially you know, after we went to different colleges and stuff like that we've our, our like little, our bond has always been like such a, an institution. Like a pillar in my life. Like I don't have, I don't know if I don't have my sister. I don't, I don't got, you know, and now I'm just like, I like.

[Nick Viall]

When was the last time I don't.

[Justin]

Know that I see her the same ever?

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, yeah. I feel. Listen, I don't know your sister. I don't know you very well. This is obviously a bump in the road, that's for sure. You know, I think, I'm sure you heard me say it's just like there have been you know, not maybe to that degree. We've all had times and periods in our life where we're going to look back and be ashamed of the person we were. You know, and maybe that's the spouts of narcissism, selfishness, self centeredness. Sometimes we just, you know, get so caught up in our own own that we come across to many people. Like your sister seems to be coming across to you, right? And again, definitely not a therapist. I'm not even a position. Even if I she was here. I'm not in a position to diagnose but, like, I don't know, I'm gonna just go ahead and bet that, like, your sister didn't magically become a narcissist. Right. And that, like, it's not as if right now you're looking back at your entire relationship and, like, for the first time ever, seeing your sister in a whole new way and realizing that since the age of, like, 10, she's kind of been the narcissist, you know, and she's like, some sociopath or whatever. That doesn't seem to be the case. Right. You know, so she's going through something and, you know, certainly demonstrating narcissistic. You know, she's only caring about herself. So listen, you're. I'm optimistic that she can work through this, but to work through it, you know, you. You two might have to go through some periods of major reform, and that might require you to. What you. You say, yo, if I'm not. If I don't have my sister, well, who am I? What you. You. Look, this is an. Also an opportunity for you to rediscover yourself as an individual. I don't know what it's like to be or twin or have a twin or that bond. And I have no doubt it's very special and something that you two have that most people who aren't twins don't have. That is not an excuse.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

To look the other way or ignore bad behavior because you guys have such a bond that you need to basically be there to enable each other and. And approve of bad behavior. In the spirit of being close, you might have to say, I don't know who you are anymore. I don't like who you've become right now. I believe in you as a person. I'm glad you're working through this, but, like, I'm no longer going to listen and approve of things. And if you want to be in my life, get ready to start. Start hearing exactly how I feel. I will always unconditionally love you, but I definitely do not like who you are right now. I don't like what you've become. I don't approve of it. You can say things like, I'm just. I don't know. I don't know how direct you want to be, but you have to, you know, without name calling and trying to hurt her, you have to start being honest with her.

[Justin]

You just made me think of something, too, actually. So when we were. When we were really young, or not even really young, even just, like, whatever, five years ago or something, I went through, through a series of like really hard things. I was always the one who, like, you know, I, I, you know, as soon as I could, I moved, you know, internationally. I did my own thing. I was away. You know, I was like, kind of like living on the phone with my family for a long time with my sister. It was all the time I was, I went through horrible like, like long term relationships, like things that were, you know, abusive, things that were really dangerous, things that weren't right for me. Just like pretty dark stuff. And even though I spoke to her about it all the time, all the time, she knew every single one. It was just almost kind of like this facade of just like encouragement, kind of just blatant. Like. She never once gave me tough love or tried to, or you know, who out to save me or you know, or demanded that I, you know, she never did that because it was kind of like to her that was going against the, the, you know, if I didn't want to do it then, then, you know, through that. That's actually just you talking about that kind of just. That was the first time that popped into my brain to think about like as a comparison. I mean, listen, wasn't never, it was never there for me that way in.

[Nick Viall]

My, in my opinion, you know, and this is not, this is more about friendships rather than, you know, brother or sister relationship dynamic. But I know there's a lot of friends out there and I see it more with women that I do with men. Men. But there's a lot of friendships out there. When you break it down, the thing they're most there for each other is to keep each other's secrets. Ah.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And I know a lot of, I know a lot of ladies or I've met a handful of ladies that like have friendships like that, you know, and that's what they value most about the relationship. When you break it down. They're there just to like, you know, they have that one friend who pulls some now and then and they can go to. Because everyone kind of needs to tell like one person even if they're doing things they don't totally like, like about themselves because they want to find someone who can like kind of justify their choices and their, their excuses, you know, and, and things like that, you know, but I don't know, to me that's not a friendship and, and, and yeah, or you know, and so it sounds to me like a lot someone who.

[Justin]

Won'T bother you, someone who won't tell mom or wouldn't tell whatever.

[Nick Viall]

So that like Here you are talking about toxic relationships, borderline dangerous relationships that you are a part of. And your sister knew every, every ounce of it, every truth of that relationship and did nothing about it other than just make you feel like hurt and even validated.

[Justin]

Like if I say but it's fine, you know, it's like, yeah, damn straight it's fine. You know, slay twin, you're the, you know, that's what she.

[Nick Viall]

And honestly, it's like almost as now she's like cashing in her. Her chips as I were there for you when you were making your self centered, selfish or self destructive choices. Maybe they weren't self centered. Maybe they were coming from a place of pain or, or whatever. But like whatever the reason, she now feels like you're supposed to accept her choices.

[Justin]

Right?

[Nick Viall]

And so to me, you're right. Like you can't fix your sister. You can't fix them. You know, you can try to be there for them, I think with limitations, but you have gone so far. You know, like they're inviting you to therapy. Therapy. I mean that'll.

[Justin]

Yeah. And as Abby said. Abby. And for both of them. And, and I know like this is, you know, I'm not gonna just like add on another question. That's not how it works. But it's also like it's been so destructive to my, my relationship with my boyfriend.

[Nick Viall]

We.

[Justin]

We lived together. We've lived together for, you know, a long time. You know, he knows everything I like, you know, I tell again. He is just such a, you know, more of like a, you know, Nick vile kind of, you know, just kind of like, you know, he sees it as it is without the like. Well, it's not his twin so he's not gonna, you know, so his just like his, you know, it's all I can do to keep him from when she comes over like in the middle of the night to cry in my arms. He's like. It's all he can do to just be like twin. Like what the hell? Like, just like what are you doing? This is all like my, you know, my partner thinks about lives, breathes like works, leaves work to talk to you. Like takes like a call from you when we're on, you know, a Valentine's Day, like or when we're on a trip and you know.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, yeah. Like you gotta stop that. Yeah, that's tox toxic. It's unhealthy, it's not productive. And that's a you problem.

[Justin]

100.

[Nick Viall]

Are you in therapy?

[Justin]

I've, you know, I I've. That's actually really interesting because I'm. That you asked that because I'm. I've done therapy. I'm not currently in therapy. I'm. I'm changing careers. I'm going to. I'm going to mental health, a clinical mental health counseling graduate school program in the fall.

[Nick Viall]

Awesome.

[Justin]

Which I think is. Yeah. So I'm. It's just really interesting. I'm. I'm fascinated by it. I think like could be something I could be good at there.

[Nick Viall]

But I, Yeah, potentially. But like right now, like this is ironic.

[Justin]

It's ironic because I'm not in therapy currently. I just always feel like, oh, it didn't work in the first few months, I'm out of here.

[Nick Viall]

Or maybe you just need to find.

[Justin]

I do listen to a lot of.

[Nick Viall]

Maybe you just need to find a different. Sure. But maybe you need to find a different therapist, you know, like, maybe, you know, it's like doctors are different, mechanics are different. You don't just start with one, give it a couple shots and then quit if it doesn't like help. But clearly you have a lot to unpack, you know, like, like, you know, there. And also therapy isn't the end all be all. I do think sometimes people can over therapize themselves. I think sometimes you need like therapy. Sometimes you might need to take breaks from it. You know, maybe you need to find a new gym, so to speak, a new trainer, you know, a new therapist. You know, like it's not like oh there, oh are you know, I'm not saying are you in therapy as if like it's the end all be all. But clearly you have a lot to unpack and work through and discuss and it's affecting you in your life and your relationships and you're not seeing the forest through the trees. You can't even set healthy boundaries with your sister, let alone enforce them. And it's affecting your life.

[Justin]

Right?

[Nick Viall]

You know? Yeah. I mean without like breaking it down and you know, giving you some sort of fake therapy session, like. Yeah. The short answer is you need to make some drastic changes in your life when it comes to your relationship with your sister and your brother in law. If I were you, I would kind of cut it off. I would, you know, reach out to both of your sister and brother in law and say, I can't keep doing this. I can't be your guys therapist. And you can let your brother in law know, like listen, like I'm saying the same thing to her. I'm not trying to leave you on an island and you can give him your last bit of advice that you might have which is like, I don't know, like he needs to be open to leaving her. In my opinion, the fact that she still works with this, until she stops working with this guy, it's never going to be over.

[Justin]

Oh my gosh. I'm so actually amazed that you just said that because that's like one of the biggest things. And I've been like so for. On her for weeks. I was like, no, because she's been like here, she's about to get tenure, it's kind of like an important school, you know, whatever, whatever. And she, and she'll just get into a panic, like a hysteria, like no, no, no, no. I just could like, you know, I've worked so hard to be here and my brother in law is just like, I mean, and he was, at first he was just like, I mean maybe you can. But now since it so like their, their reconciliation has gone just about as bad as it could go because he's. She's sketchy. She's sketchy, sketchy.

[Nick Viall]

But how old is your brother in law?

[Justin]

A few years older. He's like three years older. So I think he's like, you know, 37, 38, some like that.

[Nick Viall]

All right, well he's not that old yet. So if I, yeah, if I'm his.

[Justin]

Friend, he's like tall, super educated, hilarious. Like I love spending time.

[Nick Viall]

If I'm, if I'm his friend, I.

[Justin]

Would love to play.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, if I'm his friend, I'm telling him to, you know, listen. Like people like, sadly this happens. Relationships have to deal with it. Like there's literally a million different types of affairs from emotional to physical and everything in between. And like, you know, like, listen, like sadly it is a reality that relationships have to face. But like when it comes to this aspect of it, now that like the cat's out of the bag and the person knows it's happened and they're like on the fence between like, do I work through this and forgive and yada yada. But your sister currently is just like what she's doing to him is like honestly to me like a hundred times worse than the initial act itself. Now she's just torturing this guy. He agrees, you know, and like what she's doing is honestly kind of evil.

[Justin]

And, and the, the affair partner who I've met is, he could have been anybody. I mean my sister has never, I mean like I always tell her I was like, so you literally Just decided to throw your life away and fall in love with almost like the first man that you've ever been any kind of close with at all, in any capacity. He is 57. He is a. I've met him. He's a barfly.

[Nick Viall]

It doesn't matter.

[Justin]

He's been divorced many times. He is. I mean, he's kind of like the king of the bar, you know, that kind of charisma. Like everyone likes to have a laugh with him. We went. He drove me somewhere once. We were all going to a wedding and the affair partner wasn't going to the wedding, but. And in like the backseat, there were like, just like empty beer cans from the night before.

[Nick Viall]

Like, listen here. He's like, it doesn't matter. I don't care. I don't care. Care, okay? I don't. It's just.

[Justin]

He's not even good.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, I don't care. It doesn't matter, does it? What? But think about, you know, who cares? Like, what if he was? I mean, first of all, I know he's not a great guy. Given like the role he's playing in this relationship. Doesn't mean he's not a bad guy. But like, does it matter? It doesn't matter. Let's say he was a Harvard grad and had zillions of dollars and he was slightly better looking than your brother in law. Does it just. Does it change anything? Would you be like, oh, well, I guess he's a bit of a catch. So now I understand your choices system, sister.

[Justin]

What would change is that I wouldn't keep coming to like this weird realization about my sister, which is like, it doesn't matter who it was. This isn't even real. It's all about you. And you're like, you know, you're.

[Nick Viall]

It doesn't.

[Justin]

Selfish.

[Nick Viall]

He doesn't need a piece of shit.

[Justin]

To know that she loves feeling wanted by someone. And that was. And that's like. And that's how shallow it is. And it was enough to throw somebody she's been with tours for. Since we were 19 away. Like, that's scary. It wasn't even. Like, I, like there's no part of me that believes that this was love. It was about feeling appreciated.

[Nick Viall]

Once again, like, you're, you're. You know, clearly, I mean, it's your twin sister, so I get it, but this is a. This is how toxic this has become for you. And you're not even capable of giving good advice. You're. You're trying to understand it. It's affected You. It's changed how you see things. You're so close to your sister. Like, you just. You're trying to justify it for your sister. Sister in a weird way.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

You know?

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Like, I think you just have to over. You have to simplify this, not. Not make it more complicated. But, like, you are so caught up in this that you are just so. Like, it's. It's become your whole identity.

[Justin]

Damn, Nick, you saying that makes so much that. Man, that seems really true. And that had not occurred to me until right now. Damn.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Okay, well, that's so lame. I'm so.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, it's not lame. You know, it's just. It's understandable, right? Like, you know, anyone listening? You don't have to be a twin. We've all heard the stories about connections with twins, right? No, you don't have to be a twin to, like, understand that this must be a very painful and difficult situation for you, that you have the absolute best intentions. But, like, you need to recognize, whether it's through me or a therapist or a friend, that's kind of like, here to. It's like, grab you by the shoulders a little bit and kind of shake you a little bit and say, you gotta stop. Yeah. You can't save your sister, and you can't save your relationship with your sister on your own. I don't care that you guys are twins. It's whether it's a brother, a sister dynamic. Sister, sister, parent, child relationship. You can only do 100% of your half to make this relationship work. And your sister is responsible for her have. And right now, you're trying to do all of yours and most of hers because she's this broken bird who. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, like, that's just like, you're not doing you or your sister or that relationship any good because you can't make up for the lack of work that the other person needs to do. And this is just my humble opinion. This is not medical. I don't know. Maybe there's something smarter than me was gonna say I'm wrong, but I just don't think there's exceptions to that rule in terms of. Of temporarily. Sure. Like, listen, we all have to be there for people. Sometimes we have to step up and people are down. When our partners get sick, we do more chores around the house. You know, when Natalie's not feeling well, you know, I try to step up and vice versa, but for extended periods of time, like, that's not sustainable. Right. And right now, you are trying to like do all the work for your. Hell, you're doing the work for her marriage, let alone your relationship with her. Her.

[Justin]

I mean that's.

[Nick Viall]

And you got to stop. You just have to stop and like this won't get any better until you finally set some healthy boundaries with your sister for your relationship and your brother in law and just stop. Not let your sister come over in the middle of the night, not let her call, stop taking her calls. You can give her the heads up things are going to drastically change and then you have to follow through and enforce that and, and hope that this is a wake up call and that losing her sister will be maybe a way for her to change. I doubt she sees it right away. I'm sure she'll kick and scream, throw a fit and say a bunch of mean things that hurt your feelings, but she is just going to have to work through it because this is clearly some kind of like childhood temper tantrum. And listen, I empathize with her. She chose. You had a different path. You experienced life in your 20s and she got hitched up and she played house all through her 20s and it probably was fun and good and like she felt that probably there are times in her relationship with her now husband where she felt like she was the most in love person from her high school school and that while her sister was struggling with her relationships, she was in love and happy. And you've heard me make jokes to all the people who are like calling in and you know, all my friends are in love and dating and I'm like, well, half of them will be divorced in five years anyways. And now your sister, you know what I'm saying? And, and, and now, right, the dynamic has changed. But now your sister is blaming her decisions in the past to justify her decisions in the present. And you are completely implicit. You are an accomplice. You know, you are, you're, you're like the person who like, it's as if, you know, let's say sweet boy Justin, who's sitting right here was like, came up to me, called me up. He's like, nick, there's this bank I want to rob. Have all the plans. I know I'm gonna do it. I'm like, justin, I don't know if that's a really good idea. I think that's kind of bad. It's also illegal. You get in a lot of trouble. And I, I keep saying the same thing. I never, I never agree to it, I never condone it. But like I show up to the bank with him. And while he's robbing the bank, I'm like, are you sure you want to do this? I don't think you should do this. And he brings the bag out, puts the cash in the bag, and all the while I'm like, I think you should not do this, man. And then, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you're still. You would still get arrested. I would still get arrest. You know, I'm an accomplice. And that's literally what you're doing with your sister.

[Justin]

Damn.

[Nick Viall]

It's like you're just along for the ride. And, like, you're like the angel on her shoulder that's like, kind of allowing her, not allowing her, but you're not really stopping her. You're just like, I don't know if you should do that. Like, I think that's wrong. But, like, you're showing up to the scene of crime and hanging out with this guy, getting to know this other guy for whatever reason, you're just doing crazy that you shouldn't be doing that.

[Justin]

All of that is such a. I mean, like, yes, that is. That's. That's all so true. And what you just said right now about the even getting to know the other guy, like, kind of like doing in every, like, cell of my body, like, implicitly, explicitly, like, condoning everything. And at this point now, it's been so long. What you said to me like, a few minutes ago ago about, like, making it my thing to be doing this, like, that really hit me like a ton of bricks just now.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, listen, something to do.

[Justin]

Like, it's my, like. Like, like, once this is over, I'm so involved, and it's been so long, and it's been changing, but it's always fucking terrible. Like, I, like, I'm gonna have to, like, pay attention to my boyfriend, get a hobby.

[Nick Viall]

Like, you know, I would get a therapist. I would get a therapist and unpack this in therapy, because you can't unpack it with your boyfriend. Over and over. You're going to exhaust him and you're going to exhaust your friends. And quite honestly, sometimes that's what a therapist is for. You pay a stranger who, like, knows, who's, like, met, who's trained in this stuff to kind of hear you out, let you vent so that you don't, like, cannibalize your meaningful relationships with. That's just, like, toxic and. And. And room. And you ruminate and you say over and over, and you don't realize how much of a Broken record. You sound like, like. And just how, how animated you get when you talk about this. Listen, you're invested, you're useful, you're necessary, you need, you're needed. These are all things that as human beings, we crave in any type of relationship. And the problem sometimes is the case in your relationship, they manifest in forms of, like, toxicity. And while even though, like, the feeling of being needed and necessary are inherently good feelings, they're coming out in ways that aren't really healthy. Healthy. And yet you're, you're. And, and that's what's motivating you to, like, stay in it. Right? But you have to see that you have to rise above it. You kind of have to have an outside body of experience and see what you're doing, recognize it, and, and not justify your choices by, by how you feel in the moment. Right? Because that's what we do. Right. I'm glad that as a society we've been more mindful about what we say and do and how it affects other people's feelings and things like that. But, like, we have gotten gone too many steps further. And using all of our feelings is a way to justify choices, period. And as long as it makes us feel good and doesn't cause us to, quote, unquote, hurt other people somehow, that's a good thing. And that's just not reality. As in case by like, your situation now, because you have these feelings of feeling needed and feeling necessary and feeling like you're helping. These are all good things, but yet you're not helping. And again, it's a very toxic situation and you've been pulled in, into the toxic situation and you can't get out of this. And so instead of continuing to feel needed, necessary and helpful, you simply just need to stop and you need to set that boundary, enforce that boundary and let your sister work her shit out. And certainly you can be there for her, but being there for her needs to change. It needs to, you know, be like, yeah, I mean, listen, if you're like, honestly, if your life's on the line or whatever, I'm not going to be there for you in the way they're used to me being there for you. I'm not going to listen to your bullshit. I'm not going to be your alias. I'm not going to be your partner in crime. I am not going to be there while you choose to leave, make these destructive choices. And you can be mad at me. But, like, this is, you know, we're not 19 anymore. I'm not 23. And just because you had your. Had my back in this way five years ago, I'm not going to have your back in this way now because we were wrong for doing that. And it's not leading to healthy choices. Our life, life right now is worse because of this situation. Our life around us, my relationship with my boyfriend, your relationship with your husband, it's all worse because of this toxic situation. And I refuse to be brought down with it.

[Justin]

That is also true. And I just keep like you really did. Like, I don't know, I felt like I got kind of bowled over before thinking about the, the me of everything with like the, like when this, when I do that, when I tell you, when I do what, what we, you and I are agreeing that I'm should do, there's going to be a big emptiness that I'm going to have to fill with like my own shit and that. Man, I've talked about this so much with so many people and like that. I don't know, I don't think I really became super cognizant of that being some like, fear of mine until until today. So.

[Nick Viall]

Well, maybe that's a little bit of a breakthrough but like, you know, listen, and man, it's a, it's going to be a tough journey. Yeah, it will be harder before it's easier. But you know, you got to think of, you got to think of, you know, she. The good news, like this is your sister, right? So I don't, you know, I don't know how long both of you have on this earth, but like, let's just assume it's a bit, you know, you're both really young and you have to think about your life together, not what your life is next week with your sister. You got to think about like life 10 years from now because maybe your brother in law will be in it, maybe he won't, but she'll still be your twin sister. If you have you, I bet you'd be willing to sacrifice a handful of months or even years if that meant that you and your sister could be closer than ever for the rest of your lives. But she needs to figure her out, you know, and you have to stop being her accomplice.

[Justin]

This is really helpful. Yeah. You're the only person I've spoken about this who wasn't at least somehow like laterally involved. Like either in like my life or hers. So like that was I think an important thing for me.

[Nick Viall]

And thinking about it, if I were you, I would start looking for a therapist I would give it a shot and be picky, right? Like, you know, it might take you a while before you find a really good therapist. In the meantime, even a bad therapist will hear you out and let you just unload on them instead of unloading on your boyfriend, unloading with your sister or some other friend. And hopefully you'll get some good advice. But you need to know, regardless of what your therapist, your next therapist, good or bad, or how you connect with them, that, like, you know, you don't need a therapist to know that you probably need to stop this type of behavior and you need to distance yourself from this toxic situation. And you need to set some healthy boundaries with your sister. And setting healthy boundaries with anyone is never a bad thing. Even though, again, like I always say, like, I don't care if it's your twin sister or a co worker. Setting a boundary with someone is limiting their access to you. And you usually do that when their access to you has become tough, toxic. And no one likes a boundary set for themselves because whatever they're getting from you, they like it and they want more of it. And that's why you feel compelled to set a boundary, because they. They now expect it. They are. They feel entitled to it. And that's why usually we have to set boundaries and say, no, you can't have this anymore. And no one in the history of the world has you, you know, has been like, oh, yeah, okay, cool, I'll start. You know, I don't know, maybe sometimes people realize they've been. They've been getting, like, something for free for too long, and they're just waiting for. For someone to like receipts. But, like, usually it doesn't happen that way.

[Justin]

Yeah, well, damn. Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, anytime.

[Justin]

This was actually. This was. This was big for me. I thought the conversation was going to go such a different way and it was going to be more just like me dishing about my sister and, like, all the nuances of, like, their tort affair. And you didn't. That was, like, not what you wanted. And this was actually what I needed.

[Nick Viall]

I can't help your sister. She's not here. Yeah, I know.

[Justin]

Oh, I know. I know. I really. I really appreciate you, Nick, and that. Thank you so much for talking to me.

[Nick Viall]

My pleasure. And certainly, like, obviously, you know, from an entertainment standpoint, fascinating story. We are. We're very invested, but, like, you know, very, very relatable and we appreciate you opening up. Would certainly love an update now. I don't want an update. So that you can, you know, talk about it. But if there is a real update in some meaningful change, we would love to hear about it. Because obviously, whether it's a twin sister or a sibling, you know, shit like this is far more common than people want to acknowledge or realize and there's always something we can learn from it. So like, if you make some healthy progress one way or the other, whether it's jumping into therapy, setting a boundary with your sister and again, fully expect this to get worse before it gets better in terms of your closeness with your sister or, you know, you, you, your, your brother in law might feel a certain way when you cut him off too, right? And I would just say to your brother, like, listen, I, your brother in law, I would say, listen, I, I love you. I hope you know that. I, I would love for you guys to be together forever. But you need to start worrying about yourself because right now, just so you know, I'm kind of in some ways changing my relationship with my sister because right now, while I still love her and I think she's a great person and I see the good in her and I'm never going to abandon her, she is not a healthy person right now and she's a, she's a dangerous person to be emotionally invested in and like, you know, certainly work through it. But like, my last bit of advice for you is I don't know if this is it for you because right now she is, she's not, she's making choices for herself and no one else.

[Justin]

Right?

[Nick Viall]

But you need to stop after that. You need to stop. You need to kind of have your, a goodbye call with both of them and then you need to like enforce that boundary. You can let them know, like, I just, I can't, I, I'm not going to fix this. I can't fix this. And all it's done is brought me into your situation. I've tried, but it's now affected acting. And you can be a little more honest with your brother in law about like she's, you know, I don't trust her right now. I don't think you should either. And that's going to feel like a violation from your sister.

[Justin]

That is the actual truth. And you're right when I say I do love him and I do love her and I, and like that. And that is true.

[Nick Viall]

And you can tell, I mean, are you how else you want to be? You can tell your sister that you said that to him. I wouldn't lie to anyone. Stop, you know, stop playing both sides Just be honest. Say the same thing to both of them and then say goodbye. Not like real goodbye, but you know what I'm saying.

[Justin]

Well, my, my boyfriend would be. If, you know, if. If he listens to this, he's going to be skipping for Joy because it's been. It's been my preoccupation for a while.

[Nick Viall]

Bel, maybe thank your boyfriend for saying some of the same things I've probably said and, like, you're just willing to listen to me because I'm some third party who's not invested. So, like, maybe give him some acknowledgment and like, maybe a little bit of like, hey, I'm sorry.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Because you have obviously alienated yourself and your relationship in the sake of being there for your sister. Correct. So.

[Justin]

All right, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Nick Viall]

My pleasure. I'm sorry you're going through this. It obviously sucks, but, like, you have a lot of control that you don't feel like you have. And I think that needs to be this, you know, your lasting takeaway of this. And so stop being a victim in the situation. It's a shitty situation. I understand that you wish you could fix it on your own. You can't. But you still have a lot of control in a situation that you've honestly probably made more worse than better.

[Justin]

I think you might be right. All right, well, thanks, Nick.

[Nick Viall]

All right, take care.

[Justin]

Truly.

[Nick Viall]

All right. All right, bye.

[Justin]

Bye, guys.

[Nick Viall]

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[Nick Viall]

How's it going?

[T]

Hi, my name is Carly. I'm 26 years old and I wanted to know if the D1 quarterback athlete I was talking to was manipulating me or am I just being dramatic?

[Nick Viall]

Probably a little bit above. Tell me what's going on.

[T]

Okay. So we started talking in December. He used to play for the school that I went to. So where I went to school and where I live now is about an hour apart. So I go back there a lot. Games, all that other kind of stuff. We met, you know, just hit it off. He's 22. Just to give. He's like in his last year, 26.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[T]

So, yeah, so he's like in his last year, like, kind of like grad moment, trying to make it type of deal. So he's 22. And we got connected through Snapchat, you know, let me get your Snapchat. Which immediately should have been like, whatever. But he was just like, what's your Snapchat? And I was like, okay, cool. Like, we were at the bar. Bars. It wasn't a big deal.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Justin]

Added.

[T]

That's how we started talking. We talked for a while and then I had to go back up to that school to see a friend. Went there, hung out with him. We did, like, hang out for the whole day pretty much. And then we ended up, like, hooking up. But after that it was. And I knew that I wasn't like trying to get into anything serious or anything like that. But after that, we started talking a lot more consistently, like chatting all day every day. And mind you, this is like, important, an important part of this story. Our messaging was through Snapchat at this time. He had asked for my number. But when we were talking, like the. Hey, good mornings, hey, everything, it was through Snapchat. It wasn't pictures, but it was like through the chat function. So, like, we weren't using Snapchat as what Snapchat was really used for. Here and there. We would send, like, pictures of like, whatever. But it was mostly used for the texting function, even though he had my number. Whatever. But he would call me through regular number facetime through our regular phone numbers, but our, like, messaging was through Snapchat.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, well, let me pause you for a second. I got two questions. Well, one statement. Yes, and then two questions. My statement is, it's not whatever. Okay. And then my first question is, at this point, try to bring yourself back in your memory. But at this point, what was your, like, intentions with this guy? What. What did you think was realistic? What was going on in your head? Like, what were you perspective pursuing? And two, my second question is, like, why do you think he was texting you on Snapchat versus calling you on your phone?

[T]

Did you say why?

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, like, why? Like, you're like, oh, whatever. As if like it's some sort of, like, you know, either you, you're acting like it's a coincidence or he put no thought into it whatsoever and it just happens to be what he's doing. It's like, it doesn't really mean anything when you say you whatever. It's like this loaded statement of all these, like, assumptions and projections. And I'm asking you, like, why. Why do you think he was Snapchatting you?

[T]

Yeah, Fair. So one, my intentions, at first, it was just like, in my eyes, it was like, oh, like the, like, it's. He's an athlete. Like, I have no expectation. It was more fun. He was really cool. He hit it off because he's like, you're like a. I don't give a kind of girl. Like, you're older. Like, you don't like. He made it seem like all these girls were obsessed with him. And I was the only one that was kind of like, like, you're cool, like, we'll hang out. But I never was like, I never.

[Nick Viall]

Gave him, like, what do you mean that I was like, what do you mean? He made it seem.

[T]

Yeah, he would say, like, oh, like, I'm not used to, like, girls, like, not, like, snap, like, talking to me right away or answering my calls or like, begging to hang out. Like, you're not like, that. You have, like, your own stuff going on.

[Nick Viall]

Right? All right, so he said that. I'm saying today, as of today, like, you, you're. You're saying it as if he was manipulating or being insincere or lying. Are you. Is that how you feel today in this moment about those things? He said no.

[T]

At that time, I, like, really believed it. And then kind of fast forward everything. We were talking a lot, hanging out a lot, and then he got moved to a different team. So it all kind of changed. He got moved, transferred to a different team, all of that. And our conversation kind of died down a little bit, like for a long time, for like two, three months, he was begging to hang out, seeing me, like, all that kind of stuff.

[Nick Viall]

Sure.

[T]

And then he moved. He moved there. And again with this Snapchat thing, to know you guys are talking to each other the most. This sounds so stupid as a 26 year old saying this. I know that now you have like.

[Nick Viall]

A heart, like a, like a streak or something or whatever, you know.

[T]

Yeah. That shows that we both talk to each other the most.

[Nick Viall]

Sure.

[T]

Well, we had a conversation because, you know, he moved and all of that, and we weren't talking as much. And I was like, I knew that it wasn't really going anywhere just because of who he is, is. He would mention that, you know, all these girls that he, like, used to talk to and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then I was like, okay, cool. Like, obviously, like, you're really busy. You're going through a lot. You're. You just transferred to a new team and, you know, that's totally cool. There just doesn't really seem like there's like, kind of a place for us right now. And I was okay with that at the time. I knew what I was getting into before I got into it. I, like, have, like, had like a crush on him, but I wasn't. I didn't know him enough to be like, I want to date you. I want to, like, make this something more. And in my head, I also knew, even if I wanted that, him being 22, him just kind of the ego that he has, recognizing that and almost that's okay. Like, you're 22, you're an athlete, you have a lot of, you know, availability to you. I was like, I just don't. Even if I wanted to date you, I knew what I was. I knew that where it was going.

[Nick Viall]

Okay?

[T]

So I wasn't trying to fight for the relationship. I wasn't like, hey, I really like you. I'd like to be exclusive. Like, because I knew even if I put that, I'd just. I'm 26. I know at this point where that was going to come.

[Nick Viall]

Okay?

[T]

So I just said, hey, you know, you seem really busy. Because like I said, we were. Everything was consistent for a while until he moved four hours away to a new team. And I was like, you're really. And he kept saying, I'm really busy. I'm really busy. And in my head I'm like, no one's ever that busy. And then he kept saying, well, you've never talked to an athlete before, so you don't know what. What it's like when I say I'm busy. It's not just a regular guide. I'm busy busy.

[Nick Viall]

It's.

[T]

I have all these practices I have, and then when I get home, I don't always want to talk to someone. So, like, you say they're excuses, but they're not excuses. And in my head, I'm like, I feel like they're still excuses because, like, you didn't have two seconds to, like, call. And, like, I'm not trying to be needy. I wasn't trying to, like, tell him what to do. But in my head, when someone wants to talk to you, they will, even if it's a little, hey, I had a really busy day. I'd love to call you later, or, I'll talk to you tomorrow. I've had a really busy day. Just a little bit of communication goes along. Wrong way. But in his head, it's like he wants to do it his way.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[T]

So I tried to, like, And. And that was fine if he wasn't getting what I was saying. And I'm not gonna, like, argue with someone to make someone call me or text me. So I was just like, hey, no big deal. You seem really busy. You have a lot going on. I just think that it's best if, like, we go our own ways. And, like, he immediately responded, and he was like, well, I didn't see that coming. Like, they're not excuses. Like, you keep saying they're excuses, and they're not sure. So from there, I was like, okay, maybe you're. Maybe you're being genuine. Like, I don't know. I've never talked to an athlete before, so I have no idea exactly how rigorous your schedule are. You are there. You seem busy. These. He's in. He goes to a really good school for football. So, like, I felt like I. Maybe I was wrong. So that happened. And then I still. There were signs, and there was feelings in me that was like, I feel like he's talking to someone else because the communication slows down. You don't ask to hang out for a month. Like, all these little signs that kind of. I knew in my gut weren't just, I'm busy, and then I kind of let it go. I was just like, I'm just gonna see how things go. I'm not gonna, like, bother him, like, much. I'm just gonna let, like, play it out. That's when I think the text that I sent in we the Snapchat heart disappeared, which means he was talking to someone way more than he was talking to me.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[T]

And in my head I was like, boom, okay, okay. Everything that I knew is kind of clicking together. And that's when the texts come in about him saying, you know, how dare a 26 year old act like this? I sent you $1,000 for Valentine's Day. I sent you flowers, like all of these things. Like, I always send you money when you go out to go eat. Like, I always, like, try to give you these little things to show you that, like, I still like with you. And so he just kept saying, I can't believe you're ending this over a Snapchat heart. Like, a Snapchat heart. You really cared that much about a Snapchat heart? And I'm like, it's not about the Snapchat heart. That was just like the cherry on top of what I already knew. And he just kept saying over and over in the text messages and I kind of kept just saying, it's not about the heart. I wasn't going on and on. I was just saying, it's not about the heart. And he was like, you're crazy that you're a 26 year old and you're acting like this. You know, you're being crazy right now. You know that you're overreacting, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, does he really think this is about a Snapchat heart? Like, it's not. What do you think firming? Do you think what I knew and then fast forward where we are today. I let. I. He kind of blew up my phone a little bit about it. And I was like, he's not getting it. This is not about the Snapchat hurt. I'm not going to keep going back and forth the conversation to try to tell you it's not about a Snapchat hurt. You know, it's not. And then I let two days go by. I didn't respond to his texts. He stopped texting me, he stopped calling me because he was trying to when that all happened. And I just called him because I was like, in my head, I was. It was kind of my ego, but I was like, I don't want him to think that I'm immature. And I ended this over a Snapchat heart. Like, I want him to know why I was like, over it. And then I called him and he was like, you know, you were being ridiculous. Not about The Snapchat heart. I am going through a lot. Like, I really care about you. I really like, want to like, see where things go. I see a future with you and stuff. Like, you're really cool. Like you're someone I want to talk to. It's just, I hate the team that I've transferred to. I don't fuck with anybody here. Everyone's so sucks. I'm going through a lot with my family. Like everything in my life, it just feels like it's going on and on. And then like you. And then you were like my piece of things. Like, I felt like we didn't have any issues. And then randomly you just like blew up on me about this Snapchat heart and freaking out about this stuff. And then basically he wanted me to recognize that I was being dramatic about the heart and about everything. And he even said, oh, like you wanted that YSL person purse. Like I wouldn't even have gotten that for a girlfriend. I was going to give you the, the 800 because he had given me a thousand dollars for Valentine's Day just cause. And the YSL purse that I wanted is like eighteen hundred dollars. And he's like, well, I was gonna give you the 800 more and then you pulled that on me. So. But you're working your way. And obviously we've been talking since then. He was like, but you're working your way up.

[Nick Viall]

Like, you're like, what do you think about that statement?

[T]

Which one? That like you.

[Nick Viall]

Any of them. But some of the shit you've told me he's said to you, you like.

[T]

It just made me feel like like.

[Nick Viall]

Now you're, I guess, you know, it's like you're vent. You know, you're telling your story, but you're also like, you clearly have told the story to a lot of people. You're, you know. Yeah, yeah. And I, I hear, yeah, obviously that's what we with friends do. But like now you're telling me the story, right? And you're just kind of like, now you're on a roll, you know, and now you're just like just venting and just putting it out there. But like when you do you hear yourself say the things that he says to you?

[T]

Like, yeah, and part of me, we have a very joking relationship. So part of me was like, is he like, just like, oh, like, don't worry. Like you're, you're getting back there. Like, but in my head, I feel like he genuinely thinks that like I was being dramatic.

[Nick Viall]

Do you think he's joking. Do you think he's joking? Do you think these are jokes?

[T]

Not like fully, but I think I was upset about it. I feel like if I express it.

[Nick Viall]

Are you, let me ask you this. Are you joking with him when you're asking for clarity about this heart or why he's texting you only on Snapchat or just some of his, like, I wasn't joking. Some of his behaviors that you don't fully understand. Are you joking when you bring it to his attention?

[T]

No.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, so like, what makes you think he is joking in response?

[T]

Because sometimes it's been a pattern when like I bring something up that bothers me, you know, I was joking.

[Nick Viall]

Like, you know, do you think that's serious and do you think that's truthful or do you think that's him? Him like a 6 year old trying to get out of trouble?

[T]

I, I can't tell because like, he does seem very, like as a 22 year old, he does seem like immature in that way. Like, he just seems very. Like he just wants to like, let it pass. Like it's not that big of a deal. He says that a lot. It's really not that big.

[Nick Viall]

So I want to ask you the same question. What is your intention with this guy? Today I asked you that question, what your intention was when you first started talking with him. But like, what are you trying to figure out and to what end? Right? Like are, are you trying to figure out whether this is a guy you should pursue in a relationship? Are you trying to figure out whether you're right? Yeah, you know, like what, what are you trying to figure out here?

[T]

Yeah, so I guess, like, whether it's worth still pursuing or not. Because since then we had that conversation, he was like, you're right. Like, you're right in the fact that like, I need to make a different effort. Like, I, like things could be different. So now, since then we had that conversation, he. We have ditched Snapchat. It's gone. He texts me in the morning, you know, when he wakes up for workouts. Good morning with a heart. And then we don't really talk much during the day. And then he calls me every night and like we talk, we just catch up and stuff. And it seems like things have moved in a better direction, but I guess it still doesn't address just the way that he, you know, responded to the situation and me being upset and how to figure out when someone is too busy or, or like, and maybe that's a conversation to have with him. Like one Is this worth pursuing because you're genuine about, hey, you're busy, you really do care about me, but you know, you have to work around my schedule or is it. Sure, you are one of the many and I'm just kind of. Yeah, you know.

[Nick Viall]

How long you been fucking with this guy, hanging out with this guy for?

[T]

Since like December, like mid December, before the holidays.

[Nick Viall]

It's been like four months. Right. And in those four months of communicating with him, have you ever felt. Felt in a place of peace or on the same page with him where like, yes, you have, like, and describe that time and for how long.

[T]

Yeah, so, yeah, so it was literally up until probably Valentine's Day. So when he was like an hour away, you know, we would be pretty much talking all day long. He would FaceTime me, you know, catch me up on his day. He like everything like that. We would make plans to hang out, you know, he was an hour straight. So he'd be like, hey, come up here. Like, we can, you know, you stay for the weekend or. And that would happen pretty much every weekend or every other weekend. It was very consistent.

[Nick Viall]

Did you know where. Did you know exactly where he stood in terms of how he felt about you or what his intentions were or whether he was talking or not talking to other women?

[T]

No.

[Nick Viall]

Your relationship status.

[T]

I'm trying, I'm gonna. I didn't ask about like that part because it didn't matter to me at that point because I was still talking to people a little bit bit. And the reason why this bothered me so much is because he would make sly comments because we would kind of joke about like our hoes, but like not really having hoes. And he'd be like, well, I would make you my girlfriend or I would do this if you weren't like around with. I'm not around, like talking to these guys. Like, how would that make me seem as a guy if I'm gonna like do all these things for you if you're still talking to other people? So then in my head I said, okay, I'll cut him off. Then it wasn't a big deal. I was like, okay, I like you the most. Like, I'll cut them off. And he was like. And that was. Was it. Do you think you're said anything to him?

[Nick Viall]

Do you think you're about equal to your peers, your age, or do you think you're more or less mature than other 26 year old women you hang out with?

[T]

I would say in the middle, okay, so about like, I definitely have way more Immature friends. But I do have friends that are a little bit more mature.

[Nick Viall]

That's an honest. Honest.

[T]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And what about, about like, do you think guys in general are more mature? Less mature.

[T]

Way less.

[Nick Viall]

Way less. Okay. Yeah. So.

[T]

And that might be because of the age range. Like, I haven't really talked to anyone that's older than me. A lot of the guys that I've dated and talked to are younger than me. But also I live in a city in the south that is very girl dominated. So the guys here are. It Very, very. Like the guys have a lot of options compared to the girls. Which is why, you know, I would spend a lot of my time going, you know, up to the city of the school that I went to because it's a really big football city. Like, and then when I go home. But I never really focused on like, I'm not like online dating or anything like that. But yeah, I feel like a lot of the guys are immature.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[T]

I haven't really. Yeah. In my experience.

[Nick Viall]

Okay, well, listen, here's the thing. When it comes to you're in your predicament, you have this kind of weird dynamic as I see it. Right. And this is just my opinion, but like, listen, like kind of what I was getting at. Certainly there's exceptions to every rule, but in general. Yeah. Like especially in your 20s, I think 20s where you see the biggest difference, Right. Like, I guess my point is like all teenagers are, I mean, what do you expect from teenagers? They're all like a level of immature and even the mature ones like lack life experience in perspective. Right, right. As we get older, right. 40s, 50s, 60s, like age becomes far less relative and it's really just more about lived experiences and things like that. 30s is a crapshoot. It really is dependent on people's lives leading up to that. But for the most part, 20s, there's a heat. Just, it's like a huge difference between people in their 20s between maturity and lack of immaturity. A lot has to do with, you know, experiences in your early 20s versus a lack of experience and things like that. That. Right. But also then there's this like this truth that like regardless of how much of your lived experiences you have, like generally speaking, most 40 year olds have more perspective than most 20 year olds. Even the immature ones. Right. Who are 40, you know, you, you. Right. So there's that. Right. And as a woman who generally speaking, are developing more emotionally and more mature than men, you have a four year age gap with the guy you're hanging out with, except that this guy a D1 athlete. And I think that is something for you to consider because you have this weird dynamic. And like, this is why I think it might be so confusing for you because when you first met, right, you, you both kind of came in with a bit of a. Of power in this relationship.

[T]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

You came into this as a woman who's four years older than him, who acted a little bit different than a lot of the women his age that were like he was quote, unquote, as he said, with. Right. He came in as the D1 athlete of the school and the big swinging dick and like the most, you know, the most popular person in a group of popular people as the quarterback. And he has been catered to and treated a certain way and yada, yada, yada, and you know, he's probably big, tall, handsome and whatever. And like he walks in a room, the. He gets a lot of attention, that gives him power, that makes him feel confident, et cetera, et cetera. And so you have these two opposing forces of like betting heads. So when he says things like, oh, you know, you're different than most girls and things like that, it's like, I mean, it might feel, I'm sure it feels good in the moment, your ego's a little stroked, but like, it's all bullshit, right? I mean, what does that really mean? I think, you know, we get caught up in it, in the, in the heat of the moment. But you know, when you're telling the story and I'm listening, I'm just like, okay, yeah, like this is, it sounds like this a very. Is exactly what I would expect from a 22 year old college quarterback and dating an attractive 26 year old woman. You know, I would expect these types of conversations to happen. Right? And when I asked, you know, how long has this been going on for and how confident, secure how you felt and you're like, oh no, I've definitely felt confident, secure. And you know, I don't know, it's just debatable. But I honestly think what it sounds like to me is that purple Heart or whatever heart that Snapchat gave you was like the, the, the bedrock of how. Of your security in this relationship. It was a tangible thing that like, regardless of what he told you, you know, at least on Snapchat, he talked to you the most. And then that changed and that obviously changed the dynamic. Now he's just spinning his wheels and trying to like, I don't know. And the truth is, you, your question was like, is he Manipulating me or am I being dramatic? And I said maybe a little bit of both. And I don't. Maybe it's also, at the same time, me. Maybe neither. I don't know. He's probably lying to you. And yeah, he's probably talking to other women. But also there's an element of, like, I'm sure there's some sincerity from him when he. You. You probably are his support system. You probably are there for him in ways that other women or other people in his life haven't or can't be. And I'm sure you do add value to him in his life. And that value that you add makes it feel real, makes it feel meaningful for you. It makes it feel so. So, you know, like, it's like there's something there that you're not just some, like, another chick that he's like, you know, with or, you know, sending news to.

[T]

Yeah, the things he's asking for.

[Nick Viall]

It's.

[T]

It's different than like, for example, this, again, this is about right now. I'm watching his dog because he. He's like my dog. Like, and I know him because I hung out with his dog so many times. That does not like other people as, like, really, like, does not.

[Justin]

Whatever.

[T]

So he went to a different state to do training for spring break, and he was. And I was like, I'll watch him. Like, no big deal. So right now I have him and like, when he needs help, like, he's like, I need someone to, like, clean my house. Like, will you help me? Will you, like, get on a FaceTime with me? Like, try to get someone to help me? Or like, he was with his family the other day and he was like, oh, everyone say hi to my girl. Obviously didn't name me, but was like, like. And just like, stuff like that or, hey, why?

[Nick Viall]

Obviously, like, you're older.

[T]

I just feel like, just. That's just the way he talks. Like, he always refers to me, like, as his girl, but not like, like to me and to other people. Like, if he's on FaceTime with a friend when I'm at, like, his, like.

[Nick Viall]

House but not his girlfriend, I'm with my girl.

[T]

No, but that, that was okay to me because that we, like, I don't think of him as my boyfriend either.

[Nick Viall]

You're taking care of his dog. What do you think of him as your son?

[T]

No, I think of him as like, someone like, I care about that I could, like, see like, something so it going somewhere, but I don't think we're at that point like, at all.

[Nick Viall]

And why. Why are you taking care of his dog?

[T]

Because I care about him and I care about the dog, and I knew that it was.

[Nick Viall]

But if you care about him. Yeah, listen, I get what you're saying, but you have this, you know, I would say to you a very unrealistic and very immature approach to this relationship, you know, and I. And you're not the only one. And I'm not trying to be hard on. On you, but, like, you know, and that's also, I think, is the problem with, you know, to sound like the old guy. Your generation and dating culture today, where it's like, you guys, like, act like you can have this. Like, you know, you can have your cake and eat it too. Like, you act mature by saying things like, well, I'm not ready for that right now. But, like, here you are taking care of his dog when you're not even his girlfriend. And like, any. At any point, if this guy wanted to whip his dick out and show it to someone else, he can say, you're not my girlfriend. And he wouldn't be lying. He wouldn't. You know, and he's. You know, and it's just like, that's not you. It's like you're playing house. You're just doing your version of playing house, like. And it's become this kind of weird dynamic where sometimes you act like his girlfriend, sometimes you act like his mom, you know, like you're his emotional support system. But at any point, he can set a boundary with you being like, whoa, yay, listen. Like, this is getting too far, too deep. And it's just like, that's not a relationship. And it's certainly not one that, like, gives you peace of mind and security and comfort and, like, four months in. I'll say this much, four months in with any guy, I don't care. The stakes, his job, his profession, your age difference. You shouldn't be calling into a show like mine with as many questions you have about something that's worth your time.

[T]

Yeah, I guess I didn't realize.

[Nick Viall]

And if it's this confusing this early. Yeah, yeah, you have a lot. And that's fair talking.

[T]

Yeah. I think that's also because of my ego, is. I'm not the type. I'll never ask you to hang out first.

[Nick Viall]

I get it. Yeah.

[T]

No, I think I have so many questions because it's also my fault because I'm not. I'm letting him roll how he wants and playing cool girl and not, like, freaking out about it, which makes it easy on him. But it's also like, yeah, I do have questions, like, are we going to be something? Are we not?

[Nick Viall]

Well, like you said, you have to be. Now you're playing cool girl. So, like, it's an act, right? Like, that's okay. We all pretend sometimes, but clearly, like, you know, and like, yeah, you seem to be emotionally regulated, but, like, you playing cool girl is you again, justifying your and his choices and this talking yourself through his behavior and the things that don't make sense to you. And you talk to yourself mostly and sometimes your friends to work through his confusing behavior so you can get to a place where, like, it kind of makes sense so that it can keep this shit going.

[T]

Yeah, my friends were pissed because you.

[Nick Viall]

Really, honestly, in the back of your mind, you're like, well, he's 22, and you keep making excuses for him. And he's in his very. Like, the truth is he is 22. He's an extraordinarily transitional part of his life life, you know, as a D1 quarterback, I don't know what school he plays for, how big or how good he is, but, like, despite him being at the level that he is, it's still an incredible long shot for him to get drafted. And if he gets drafted, it's even a little bigger of a long shot. But I have no doubt he probably has these dreams and aspirations and he's like, aiming big for his life as he should, and good for him, but, like, for the next, I don't know, eight years of his life, I can promise you this much. You will not be a top priority. You just won't. Right? And like, you have, you know, it's not like you're his high school sweetheart where you out. You. You know, like, a lot of young athletes marry early and like, you know, sometimes it works out, sometimes it's not. You never want to be like, Russell Wilson's girl. I don't know if you've ever seen that video. Like, when he got drafted, she's like, I won the lottery. And then, like, before his big deal, he divorced her. The marriage here, you know, and like. But listen, like, you don't even have that going for you. You know, you're. You're all you are is different and older and like, you know, a lot of, you know, and I'm sure, like, him dating an older girl for a D1 quarterback kind of makes sense to him because in a lot of ways, he probably is more mature than some of the girls he's hanging out, despite him being catered to, despite him being in a lot of ways very immature for his age. I've said this, there's like this hockey, this girl who like hooked up with this hockey guy a long time ago. And I said a very similar thing to you. It's like he's both incredibly mature and immature for his age. You know, his immaturity comes from the fact that he's been catered to and, and you know, put up on a pedestal his whole life. But his maturity comes from the fact that he's been put in leadership positions and he's given and he's lived certain aspects of his life that have forced him to be immature as a leader of his team. And that, and that comes out in the form of probably very attractive qualities and his ability to talk to you and keep up with you in ways that other 22 year old men couldn't.

[T]

Yeah. And that's what I was telling my friends. I felt like the people that I was talking to before, like, one thing he appreciates about me, he's like, I like talking to you because you're very established in your career. You would, if we got married, it wouldn't be like all these other girls who just want to be like wags. Like, like you make good money, you have your shit together. Which is like someone I want to marry. And for him I felt like, because he's so, like you said, established in his career, him acting this way and having all these opportunities, it's really attracted to me because a lot of the 22 to 24 year old guys I'm talking to were just getting in their careers. They don't know how to manage their money. They're all these things that are like. And maybe that's the issue of like an age range that I'm going for. But to him it's like, why are.

[Nick Viall]

You going for people who are younger than you? I mean, I get like, listen, my, obviously my wife's a lot younger than me, but like, are you going for younger men are like, is that, is that.

[T]

I just feel like that's how I, I have a lot of like how I meet these people are like a lot of the guys that I've talked to, like my guy friends are younger, so they'll introduce me to their friends. Like I've never been on a dating app or any of that. So it's just, I don't know a lot of older people. Like no one. Yeah, I don't hang out with anyone older than me, so it seems like Whenever I go home. Yeah. That's the other thing. It's. If I were. I don't have a problem with it. I'd be open to it. It. It's just everyone I know is either is. Is usually younger than me.

[Nick Viall]

Okay. That's. Your circle of influence is younger. That makes sense. Nothing. You know, you can. But listen, my point is. That does. You can change it. You can use dating apps. Dating apps as a. Is a tool, not a solution. I'm not saying like, get on five dating apps and stop meeting people in life. You know, and I'm not saying stop dating younger guys. I'm just saying like, it's not necessarily a recipe for success. And like this particular guy, you know, I don't know, like anything's possible but being for, you know, like I don't know if this guy makes it to the top of the mountain. If as wild as Dre come true.

[T]

And he thinks they will.

[Nick Viall]

Great. Yeah.

[T]

Very confident in it.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. And good for him. But like he, you know, I don't care if you're the D1 quarterback about to go pro or, or, or, or not or, you know, when. I don't know what I was doing when I was 22, but all I'm saying is saying most 22 year olds are very wrong about their future.

[T]

Right.

[Nick Viall]

You know, that's.

[T]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

He. And he, he, he could still, still make it to the pros and still be very wrong about his future and other aspects of his life.

[T]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

You know, all I'm saying is like, you, I don't know what you thought about your future at 22, but I'm guessing four years later, you can already point out a lot of things you were wrong about. Right. That's called life. You have to live it and whatever. And we don't get to decide when we're 22 what a rest of our lives look like and have it all be exactly what we planned and wanted for ourselves. So.

[T]

Yeah. And so like. Yeah, from here it's. It's like, like, is it like. Oh, like end it. Is it. It's because it's so weird because it's like, is there something that like he is not gonna.

[Nick Viall]

It just feels like, like end it. Like if you're looking for, you know, the type of closure that, where it's like you, you both like mutually decide, you know, and you're on the best possible terms, you know, like that's, that's, that's, that's delusion. It's just not going to happen. Like you very, like, it's what's clear to me through your story is like, it's very clear to him. Him that you. He knows why you're in his life. You know, he knows the value you add. Right. And he doesn't want to get rid of that. Right. And he. He has his top priority, that is to go pro. Everything else, honestly, is. Is much further down the priority list for him. That being said, you have made yourself very available and very useful to him. I'm not saying he's doing it to use you, you know, I'm just saying, like, he just has other shit that is a bigger priority. And you've made yourself very available and you've been very accommodating, and you've offered up some of your services, both as a friend, as a lover, as a mother figure, as a housewife who's taking care of his dog. And these are all, like, make it makes his life easier. So why wouldn't he. Why would he say no to that? And then, like, you know, you haven't forced him to be in a relationship, so he will always have this get out of jail free card, and then he'll just argue semantics with you about shit like snow, Snapchat conversations and other girls and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's worth it to him because, again, what's clear to him is the value you bring. I'm not sure what value he brings into your life other than a great story and a lot of drama and something to talk about with your friends and a potential lottery ticket that, like, while you're not looking to be a wag, it could pay off in the wrong run. Or maybe like, the man you fall in love with just happens to get drafted by the NFL.

[T]

Yeah, for sure. It's. It was more like a fun story in the beginning, obviously, because he was the quarterback at the school that I went to. Like, it was all like, you know, I. I don't talk to athletes. And so now it's like, I think he's really fun. I think he's, like, really good to talk to.

[Nick Viall]

I'm sure he's swell. Yeah, I'm sure he's swell. But, like, he just has. He just has a lot to work through. He just has a lot to work through. He's got a lot of other going on.

[T]

That's the hard part. It's. It's like a good guy. Like, he didn't do anything wrong. So it feels almost weird cutting things off with someone, someone who. Because he's right like, he's not doing anything wrong. He's not being an. It's just, like, it's clearly to me that it's not going to go anywhere. And then he'll argue, oh, I'm busy on this. I still.

[Nick Viall]

And that's fine. You're like, listen, you are busy. I totally get it, but I'm busy, too. And I'm 26 years old, and you're, you know, and that's fine. But what I'm looking for is to invest my quality time and invest my dating. I have a. I. I don't have time. I don't have a lot of time to date, go on dates, you know, hang out with other men. I just. I'm busy, too, you know, I'm not trying to say I'm busier than you. Like, you have your life to worry about. I have mine. But, like, I. When I do date in the limited time that I have, I want it to be with someone who, like, has time for me. And you. Listen, you don't. Like, you. You shouldn't have. You should chase this dream. You should go and try to be an NFL quarterback. Like, you should try to do that. But, like, right now, like, you don't have time for the thing I'm looking. Looking for, and it's not. Listen, that's. And that's. Life's not fair. Maybe you'll teach him a lesson here. He is going to fight for that. He is going to fight for you. And. And that's not necessarily for you. You can tell yourself it's for you and it's love. What it is, is for. Like, you bring a lot of tangible value to his life. You make his life easier, and he is not going to let that go easily.

[T]

I should have stuck with that the first time that I did it. Like I said. Like, when I said, hey, no big deal. I think you're being busy. And then he was like, wait, this shocks me. Like, I didn't think you were going to do this, like, and I should.

[Nick Viall]

Have just like, you can still do it now. It's been four months. It's like. It's like you're not.

[T]

And that was. I did that like, a month ago or maybe three weeks. It was recent. And then he's gonna think that I'm. Yeah, he's gonna be like, you're doing this again.

[Nick Viall]

Who cares what he thinks? Who cares? Listen, you don't get to end it and have him be like, you know, what a great girl she is. Honestly. Honestly, what. What a nice Sweet girl. I wish her nothing but the best. You're considering rejecting a D1 quarterback? Yeah, they don't usually take that well. They. You know, he's not used to being turned down, not getting the job, not getting, you know, like, you know, you. You, like he just transferred the transfer portal or whatever. Now he's with a new team and it's been like he's already struggling with that, you know. Yeah. As a quarterback of a team, he's. He's got a lot of probably learning to do, you know, and like that, you know, and. And all these things. And there's a lot of quarterbacks that make to the NFL and never, you know, like, doesn't go anywhere. Like, you know, he can still be the truly best in the world. He could be one of the. He can be one of the top 100 quarterbacks in the world and still be a fucking nobody when it comes to, like, the NFL.

[T]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And still ultimately have people think of him as a failure. That's. Fuck, that's tough, man. It's tough in his position. And a lot of people, like, don't have the mental fortitude, attitude or the emotional and mental resilience to. To get where they need to go because, like, the problem that he's in is like, you know, for his whole life he's been so much better than everyone else and that, you know, and he has a lot of growing up to do in that department. And like, you know, I don't know, like, you can. Yeah, I don't know if that's a job for you. It's probably a job for a lot of people. And he's gonna have to go through years of interactions and things like that. And like, you're just a maid.

[T]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

You know, you're an emotional support system. You're something to do. You're, you know, like, he is not, you know, when he's like, well, I don't know, maybe in the future we get married, I want to marry someone like you. Like, you're seeing that as like, romantic. Like, he's just saying, yeah. I don't know what, What I do know about this guy. He's not looking to get married anytime soon. And if he does, it's a reactive decision to like, you know, a panic of losing you again. Like, I'm sure he will fight hard for you, but make no mistake, it's not necessarily for you. He's doing. He's fighting for himself. He's like, he doesn't want to lose his assistant.

[T]

No, that's so valid. And I think that that was in my head, I was like, I need to understand that someone can be busy, and all the things that he's saying can be true, but that doesn't mean that, like, that gives it a right for me to feel like, you know.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. And these gifts.

[T]

I feel anxious. I feel all these things.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, there you go.

[T]

Just because he is busy and all those things are true, that doesn't mean I have. It's like, oh, oh, it's okay that I'm anxious. It's okay that I'm. This. Because he's busy. And that's kind of what I was telling myself. He is busy. I don't understand his schedule. So, like, it makes sense that I feel this way, but it doesn't mean I want to still feel that way.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And that's more honest about your state of mind and your feelings. It's like, this doesn't Guy. This guy doesn't bring you peace. He makes you anxious. He makes you unsettled, insecure, unsure. Yeah. It definitely keeps you busy and preoccupied. You've definitely. You have not been bored in the past four months. And, like, no one loves being bored. You know, like, listen, I can't make you. You know, you're gonna have to decide for yourself what you want to do, but, like, you really gonna have to be honest with yourself about, like, you know, to me, this is a waste of your time. It is the most you're gonna get out of this is a good story. So you'll just have to ask yourself, how much is this good story worth to me?

[T]

Yeah. And even you saying that, like, with the dog, like, he's back at his. At his college now, he's like, oh, like, will you keep him for the week so I can get readjusted in my schedule? And I'm, like, sitting here, like, readjusted.

[Nick Viall]

Like, why does this guy have a dog? You know, like, you know, he.

[T]

And he. He's a puppy, and he shouldn't. And he literally cannot manage him at all. And he's. He's stressed out. He doesn't like his team. He. He, like, thinks he made all these bad decisions, so he's like. He's stressing out about that, and then he's like. And then he's like, well, you have him for the. Like, this week, and this is, like, two weeks. And I'm like, I'm happy to help you, but also, like, he's not asking me. You know, is this good with your schedule? When can I get him like he's, he's operating knowing that I can handle it because I handle everything and I have my shit together. But it's just annoying.

[Nick Viall]

He likes you because he finds the other women that are his, his age more obnoxious.

[T]

Yeah, for sure.

[Nick Viall]

Because you're mature enough to play the game a little bit and you're mature enough to be like, you know, to, to kind of mask your anxiety and your insecurity and they're a little bit more reactive maybe, and they're, you know, and they complain to him a little faster and a little sooner than you do.

[T]

And he's exactly what he said about the other girls. He'd be like, they asked what. What I want right away. And they're so worried about what we're going to be. And like, you just, like, don't give a fuck.

[Nick Viall]

And you're.

[T]

Even though inside I give a little bit of a fuck.

[Nick Viall]

You give a lot of fun.

[T]

He.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, you give as many as they do.

[T]

But I know the reality of this situation.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, but now, and now you're lying to yourself. But like, you, you, yes, at, at first you were honest for a brief moment about the reality of your situation, and then henceforth you were lying to yourself about what he said and what he meant and how sincere he was or yada, yada, yada. Or you took what he said and you manipulated it and changed it into something that you could accept rather than taking it at face value. And you have used your quote unquote maturity as a way to honestly manipulate yourself. Like, you're clearly an intelligent person and you know, like, listen, like, obviously this is coming from tough love and I'm not trying to be hard on you here, but, like, your question was, is he manipulating me? Is he gaslighting me? And it's just like, we lie to ourselves way more than we lie to anyone else. I say that all the time. No one talks to you more than you talk to yourself. And, you know, your ego is internal. And like, listen, you're lying to yourself constantly, every day. We all are. But, like, it's just easier for you to play the victim here. You know, it's easier for you to act like he's manipulating you. But again, you saw him for who he was in the beginning of this story and you have tried to do, like, mental gymnastics to keep it going, and it just, it feels wrong, which is why you reached out to us. And it's why you're calling, because your gut is telling you this is not what I'm telling Myself, it's is. And why am I still here? And it's only been four months with this guy and it ain't going to get better. His life has never been more chaotic. So he is definitely. He's going to feel less in a position to give you more. He's going to feel more justified to ask more from you and expect less from him.

[T]

Yeah, exactly. Because that's what he said. That's literally like, like basically without saying it, he's like, yeah. And it's just. I. Yeah, from here it's just. You think, but you think having a conversation, drop off the dog and have the conversation or draw or figure out a way to get him back. Because we haven't even figured because he's four hours away. When I picked him up, I drove four hours, picked him up, hung out with him for two hours and drove back.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, listen, my answer is path of least resistance, right? Obviously, you don't need to, like, be dramatic. You don't need to blow this guy up today, you know, like, you're not your boyfriend. He's not doing anything wrong. Wrong. You're in this situation because you made choices and you accepted some of his asks, right? So there is no reason to be reactive or whatever. So figure it out, you know, like, take care of the dog. He's obviously, you know, he's going to be selfish, he's going to ask a lot from you. And like, whatever you feel is reasonable, just placate once he has the dog. I don't even think this requires some big sit down. You know, you're not. Again, you're not his girlfriend, you're not his mom, you're not his therapist. You don't owe him anything. He's gonna act like you do, but you can just simply just. It can be a casual phone conversation. You know, it can be like, listen, I. It's like I, I have a lot going on too, and I just, I can't be taking care of your dog. And like, you're just not in interest. You're not in a position to be a boyfriend right now, even if you wanted to be my boyfriend. I know that you, you have too much other going on. And honestly, you would be a fool for you to like, bring a girlfriend into your life. But like, I, I am 26 years old. I am looking for someone in my life and like, you're just not it right now, you know? And it makes me sad. I think you're a great guy, you know, but like, this is.

[T]

Yeah. Is there a Good way to respond because I know how he's going to respond. He's just like, you're doing this again. I told you that I would try harder. I told you things would be different. I told you. Is there, like, a good, Like. Because I don't want to seem like I'm jumping on things as. As soon as things aren't going my way. Because that's what he says. He says, whatever.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, again. But he's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, like, so fine. And I don't know if he's going to hear it. You know, this is not about. You know, you're asking, is there a good way. What you're really asking, is there a perfect way to say something so things resonate with him? I don't know this guy. And what I do know about this guy, chances are he's very resistant to not getting his way.

[T]

Yes.

[Nick Viall]

Right. So, like, chances are you're not going to say the perfect thing where it's going to, like, the light bulb's going to go off and he's going to be this mature, mature guy again. He's going to fight for the things that you give him. You give him a lot. Right? But, like, you're not asking him for anything. Before, it was I want. You were asking for something, and that was the truth. You wanted the truth from him. You wanted to find out who was Snapchatting. You wanted to get some clarity. You're not asking for anything. You are. You're letting him know. And it's not about Snapchat. You have come to a different decision, and that. That is. You have too much going on right now. I don't even. Like, I'm. I. You should. Honestly, you should be talking to other girls like, it was a. I shouldn't have asked for that. Obviously. I think you're a great guy. You have a lot going for you. I. I love being around you, but, like, I have to be mature and recognize that, like, what I want for myself. You are not. You're. You're. You're too busy for. And like, you should be. You were making good choices. Like, you. You should. Should. Like, I'm not. I don't want to ask you to choose between your job and me. Sometimes people do. Like, there are. There are relationships out there where it's just like, listen, man, I don't know. I'm not getting what I need, and you're a workaholic and, like, you're never at home, and I feel alone in this relationship. You're not In a relationship, you know?

[T]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

So, like, you're playing house, and you're just like, I just. I just can't. I don't want to do this anymore. And, like, I'm. I'm just looking for something else. I don't want anything. There's nothing you can say or do to change my mind, because you're not doing anything wrong. I just realized I. I need something different, and I don't want you to fight for me, and I don't need you to fight for me. You should fight for your, like, your job, your. Your career. You're 22. Chase your dreams, man. Like, I'm rooting for you.

[T]

Yeah. It's what I said the first time, but I did not stand my ground on it, and I just.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. And, like, you know, and he has a competitive spirit. He won't even know the difference between. Like, is. Is. Is this a champ challenge? Does he love you? You don't he. Again, that's where his immaturity will come out.

[T]

Yeah. Yeah, that's.

[Nick Viall]

And you have to be mature enough to recognize that his reaction will be about him, not about you. And you're. And you have to make sure you let your ego know that.

[T]

Yeah. And you hit it right on the head when you said, like, I. I hate being, like, the bad guy in people's eyes because, like, I have done so much, and it's gonna really annoy me if he's gonna think she was immature.

[Nick Viall]

He'll call you names. He'll say a bunch of things. Maybe he'll spread rumors. I don't know. I do not know his level of immigration immaturity. But you. You're gonna have to accept that, anticipate that, and. And. And let your ego be okay with that.

[T]

Yeah. You're absolutely right.

[Nick Viall]

I know.

[T]

Yep. That's good advice. It's. It's what I needed, what I. I knew but needed to hear from someone other than my friends, because it's just a story, like you said, is being played.

[Nick Viall]

Your friends probably love this. They're great. You know? And, like, you know, your friends right now are the friends who want you to buy the boat. Right. Like, they can't. They can't even be honest. You go to your friend, be like, hey, should I buy this boat? Your friend's like, yeah, actually sounds like a lot of fun. We would have so much fun. They're not thinking, can you afford it?

[T]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Like, is this a good financial decision? Is this going to, like, create emotional distress for you? You're just they're just thinking about how much fun the boat is.

[T]

Yeah. And they. They love the story.

[Nick Viall]

No, they want you to introduce you to some of like, you know, they're like, I don't know, is the linebacker single?

[T]

Exactly. Like, they wanted me to bring, you know, them to games and, like, make a weekend. Weekends of it. It's like, oh, it's not that big of a deal. You know, just like, ride the wave type of thing. And for a while it was fine. But I feel like, like you said.

[Nick Viall]

It'S been four months and list you could. And I'm not. This is not a dare. And like, I, I very much. I. I'm. I say this with caution, but if you were capable, which I don't think you are, and I don't think you're gonna be, and that's not something that you should try out, but if you were capable of truly not giving a. And. And saying things, saying no to be like, no, I'm not gonna watch your dog. You shouldn't have gotten a dog.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Like, yeah, you know, if you were capable of, you know, being in more position of power with this guy, then I would say have some fun. But you're not. You're not.

[T]

No, at this point, I'm not.

[Nick Viall]

And that's. That's more than understandable. Yeah.

[T]

Well, thank you. I. Yeah, once, like you said, gonna chill this week with the dog, then find a way to get. Get him back, and then kind of just don't go from there.

[Nick Viall]

When you. If. If you actually move forward with ending it, don't make a big thing of it. It's not a production. Don't be dramatic.

[T]

Yeah. Don't be like, we have to talk.

[Nick Viall]

He's not your boyfriend.

[T]

Just kind of. Yet.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[T]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[T]

Okay. All right, well, thank you guys so much. I really appreciate.

[Nick Viall]

Thanks for calling. Please give us an update on how, when, when you. When and if you do that and how that went.

[T]

Yeah, sounds good. All right, thank you.

[Nick Viall]

Thank you. Bye. Bye. Foreign is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing a budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Prices and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states with T mobile.

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[Nick Viall]

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[Nick Viall]

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