E917 Ask Nick - My Boyfriend Stole My Job

Summary

Episode E917: Ask Nick - My Boyfriend Stole My Job

Release Date: April 14, 2025

In this episode of The Viall Files, Nick Viall engages in a deep and revealing conversation with Francesca (referred to as Sierra in the transcript), a 28-year-old woman grappling with complex relationship dynamics intertwined with professional challenges. The episode delves into the intricacies of communication, emotional intelligence, and personal boundaries within romantic relationships.

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Caller Introduction

Francesca (Sierra) – [01:03] Francesca reaches out seeking advice on whether her ex-boyfriend is narcissistic and whether she was the one who ghosted him. She provides context about their relationship's history, emphasizing recent stressors following their breakup in October.

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Relationship Dynamics and Communication Issues

Francesca's Concerns – [01:15] to [05:27] Francesca explains that after their breakup, her ex-boyfriend exhibited passive-aggressive behavior, such as being short and less affectionate without addressing underlying issues directly. This pattern left her confused and overthinking the state of their relationship. An example she shares involves a wedding invitation where she did not receive a plus one, leading to tension and his silent treatment.

Nick's Insights – [05:10] to [07:02] Nick highlights the situation as a "relationship barometer," assessing how partners prioritize and communicate with each other. He points out that passive-aggressive behavior, though not overtly aggressive, still signifies underlying issues that need addressing.

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Self-Awareness and Emotional Intelligence

Francesca's Self-Reflection – [07:02] to [14:57] Francesca discusses her high emotional intelligence and commitment to resolving conflicts healthily. However, she acknowledges a pattern where her active social life contrasts with her partners', leading to incompatibility. She aims to marry by 31 due to her biological clock and seeks a confident, ambitious partner who can handle her lifestyle.

Nick's Analysis – [14:15] to [26:48] Nick critiques the societal obsession with labeling behaviors as narcissistic, emphasizing that everyone exhibits some level of self-centeredness. He advises Francesca to focus on her emotional energy and prioritize relationships that genuinely make her happy. He suggests that Francesca's high standards and desire for a partner who meets all her emotional needs may limit her success in finding a compatible mate.

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Dating Older Men and Compatibility

Francesca on Dating Older Men – [26:48] to [38:07] Francesca reveals her tendency to date men approximately ten years her senior, noting that this pattern has not yielded successful long-term relationships. She expresses difficulty in finding men who are both confident and emotionally mature enough to meet her needs.

Nick's Perspective – [38:07] to [43:32] Nick asserts that older men may have established patterns of behavior that are hard to change. He advises Francesca to set clear boundaries and recognize that expecting significant emotional growth from these men may lead to repeated disappointments.

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Self-Improvement and Moving Forward

Francesca's Realizations – [43:32] to [52:08] Francesca acknowledges that her willingness to accommodate her partners' needs may inadvertently lead them to take advantage of her. She recognizes the importance of establishing firm boundaries and becoming more assertive in her relationships.

Nick's Tough Love Advice – [52:08] to [74:42] Nick provides candid feedback, urging Francesca to prioritize her happiness and emotional well-being over maintaining strained relationships. He emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and being honest about what one truly wants in a partner. Nick encourages Francesca to let go of relationships that drain her emotionally, even if they offer certain benefits.

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Final Reflections and Closure

Francesca's Attempts at Closure – [74:42] to [135:56] In her final interactions, Francesca discusses her attempts to seek closure with her ex-boyfriend, who abruptly ended their relationship after a series of heated conversations about her professional aspirations and his unwillingness to convert to Judaism. Nick continues to offer blunt advice, highlighting the importance of recognizing when a relationship is no longer beneficial and the necessity of moving on to preserve one’s emotional health.

Nick's Closing Thoughts – [135:00] to [135:56] Nick wraps up the conversation by encouraging Francesca to reflect honestly on her relationship dynamics and to prioritize her needs over the emotional entanglements with her ex-boyfriend. He underscores the significance of emotional resilience and the necessity of letting go for personal growth.

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Notable Quotes

• Francesca: "It is not my character from, with anybody in my life, any ex in my life, to just like, end on such a hostile note and never speak again." [03:35]

• Nick: "You have to be self-aware about how available you are emotionally, you know, and how needy are the men that you date." [12:08]

• Nick: "The key to happiness is getting better at prioritizing where you spend your emotional energy. Do you spend it on things that make you happy or do you spend it on things that make you sad or anxious?" [24:43]

• Francesca: "I need to just maybe see if he changes since we said we would agree to move forward and, like, get to know each other." [38:46]

• Nick: "You can’t have such high expectations. That includes only dating 1% of men and then expect them and then be so annoyed by their emotional limitations, gaps, or immaturity." [26:21]

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Conclusions and Takeaways

This episode underscores the importance of self-awareness, clear communication, and setting healthy boundaries in relationships. Nick advises listeners to prioritize their emotional well-being over maintaining connections that may be one-sided or draining. Francesca's journey illustrates the challenges of balancing personal aspirations with relationship dynamics, emphasizing that recognizing and addressing one's own patterns is crucial for fostering healthy and fulfilling partnerships.

Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their relationship standards, assess the compatibility of their partners, and make informed decisions that align with their personal growth and happiness.

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Note: This summary intentionally omits advertisement segments and non-content sections as per the provided guidelines.

Transcript

[Nick]

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[Francesca]

You're crazy.

[Nick]

How's it going?

[Sierra]

Hello, my name is Francesca. I'm 28 years old and I'm wondering if my ex is narcissistic and ghosted me or if I'm actually the who ghosted him.

[Nick]

Okay, well, with these types of questions, my first question is always, why do you care about your ex?

[Sierra]

Well, the reason I care is because we had just started rekindling a relationship that was about a year in the making.

[Nick]

And you were rekindling for a whole year?

[Sierra]

No, we were rekindling for like a couple of months. We had broken up in October actually. He had broken up with me.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Sierra]

First time anyone's broken up with me. So it shell shocked me and added a lot of stress and overthinking into what was going on in the relationship. But the reason I care about what's going on with my ex is because we just didn't finish the relationship. We just never spoke again after having a certain phone call. And it's just not in my character to be a ghoster or to end things on a bad note. Like, I have pretty high emotional intelligence, I would say.

[Nick]

So what was the, what was this phone call about?

[Sierra]

So on the day after Valentine's Day, I felt like he was being a little short with me, which has been an ongoing issue in the relationship. When he's frustrated by something or doesn't like something, he doesn't just come to me and bring it up in a healthy way and we talk it out and then it's all good. He kind of punishes me for it and I have to Realize that I'm being kind of ignored or he's being shorter with me, less affectionate. I have to ask, and then it comes up. So give me frustrating.

[Nick]

Try to give me a quick example of what you mean. Like role.

[Sierra]

Yeah, so. So let's. Here's an example. I didn't get a plus one for a wedding last summer.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Sierra]

We're in our 20s. When you're not that close with the couple getting married, you don't want to ask them to add a plus one for some new guy you're dating. So anyway, not a problem. To. When I was at the wedding, he wouldn't speak to me, wouldn't answer my texts. When I called him, he was like, he decided to be angry about it while I was at the wedding. Like, why not before the wedding or at a time where we could talk about it.

[Nick]

Okay, a great example. Thank you.

[Sierra]

You're welcome. So Valentine's Day, after Valentine's Day, he's being short, doing the punishment thing. So I called him to say, like, what's wrong? Like, what. What are you upset about?

[Nick]

And okay, so he, you. He just. So, so there's a pattern of. All of a sudden his mood changes, you notice he's treating you a certain way, and then you realize you need to figure out why.

[Sierra]

I have to.

[Nick]

Let me ask you that now, let me ask you this. Like, do you really have no clue or do you play dumb?

[Sierra]

Both. Sometimes I have a clue. But it usually surprises me so much what he actually is upset about that I.

[Nick]

And what surprises you that he's upset about it or how elevated his emotions are?

[Sierra]

Over what I think, what bothers me, his emotions aren't that elevated. He gets actually more reserved and cold. So it's not a heightened emotion. It's more. Why is he mad about something like that?

[Nick]

I don't know. I guess maybe we're arguing over semantics and it's maybe just a how we define it. But like, okay, I think passive aggressive can still be really aggressive.

[Sierra]

I agree.

[Nick]

It just in a more passive fucking irritating way.

[Sierra]

Yes.

[Nick]

Coupled with like just the extreme passive aggressive nature. But you know what I'm saying? So, like, just because they're not, you know, flying off the handle or screaming or elevating their voice or. Or slamming doors doesn't mean they're not like overreacting.

[Sierra]

That's very fair point. I. I would agree with that.

[Nick]

So we would agree that what you're saying is you're more shocked by what feels like an overreaction to whatever it is that's upsetting him.

[Sierra]

Exactly.

[Nick]

Because, like, I can see, like, the example you gave about, like, getting a plus one. You know, we could, I think, honestly, like, we could probably have. I could have a 45 minute discussion on my podcast about, like, you know.

[Sierra]

What do you do in that situation?

[Nick]

What do you do in that situation? Listen, it's a. It's. It's a barometer, you know, like, stuff like that early in a relationship. Is this is. It is a relationship barometer? It is. How does this. How does this person feel about me? How. What kind of priority am I to this person?

[Sierra]

Right?

[Nick]

There's a. There's several different, like, layers or ways to interpret things, but either way, when you break it down, it is a barometer. And so he is absolutely justified to be like, huh? Well, I mean, okay, yeah, like, he could be upset about it. Right. His approach seems to be just fucking annoying and borderline aggressive, even if it's passive. Correct me if I'm wrong by any of this, but yeah, no, it makes right, because you're just like, you know, because let's be real, you could meet someone for two weeks. Two weeks. I mean, I have. Whether. Whether it was right or wrong or whether I was delusional or not, I in my life have met women that I got really excited about, and two weeks into knowing them, I was. We were saying some crazy shit to each other. And if I got invited to a wedding, I would have been like. I would have been that guy who would have been like, can I bring up. Come on. Like, can I? Because I want to. I want to. I wanted to take this person.

[Sierra]

So this is why it's so important for me to ask the second part of my initial question. Like, I. I definitely have pieces of me that it's going to take a certain type of man to handle, because.

[Nick]

I think that's true about all of us.

[Sierra]

Yeah, I think that it's been a pattern in my more serious adult relationships that my social life being much more abundant than theirs, creates problems. And so they're, you know, at the age of 28, I'm trying to figure out, okay, if there are things about me and the way I live my life that are pushing away men, then I need to.

[Nick]

What are your relationship goals?

[Sierra]

I want to get married and start a family when ideally, I mean, I don't like to time limit myself, but I'm.

[Nick]

These are.

[Sierra]

We have a biological clock and mine's a bit more curtailed than maybe other people's would be. So I would say if I could start having kids by 31.

[Nick]

That would be okay.

[Sierra]

Biological.

[Nick]

When you say going out, what do.

[Sierra]

You mean going out? In what sense? Like going out with my friends.

[Nick]

Well, that's what I'm asking you. You said. I don't know exact what words you said, but you reference like your.

[Sierra]

My social life is ab. Is more abundant.

[Nick]

Yes. Yeah. So what do you mean by that?

[Sierra]

I have dear friends from when I was a child that we have always, since we were literally children, sleepovers, going and doing stuff together, movies. Now that we're older, it's evolved into. We have a certain music taste. If we have artists that are performing in different cities, we would like to go together. And I have a lot of friends getting married, so bachelorette trips are everywhere. Birthday trips are things that we do now that we make money and have freedom. And a lot of my friends.

[Nick]

How often is this happening?

[Sierra]

In my opinion, not very often. Like the last time I went out was maybe two months ago. So it's every few months.

[Nick]

Maybe every few months you are going on a trip.

[Sierra]

On a trip. Not necessarily, but doing something that would be considered going out, like going to a show or.

[Nick]

But these are like concerts or fest, you know, just social events.

[Sierra]

I'm not going to a club for fun every weekend. Absolutely not. And I wouldn't accept that from my partner either.

[Nick]

Yeah, that seems totally normal for the average.

[Sierra]

I, I appreciate that. That reaction.

[Nick]

Well, I so have like every guy you've ever dated had a problem with this.

[Sierra]

My last two long term relationships, that has become a problem.

[Nick]

So what do you think it is? Like, do you think it's bad luck in terms of the men that you dated or do you think despite the way you described your social life to me, there, there's something that. There's something missing that is if, like, if I got them on the, on the zoom and like you just like turned off your phone, you know, I was just like, no. What, what was, what was it that pissed you off about her? Would they give me the same answer?

[Sierra]

You know, I think after reflecting a lot on it, it might be just an element of. Yes, the choosing. But also there's some element of insecurity in the relationship.

[Nick]

Let me ask you this, when. So you have. In this group there's other married women, right?

[Francesca]

Yep.

[Nick]

Various couples. Yeah, various couples, various relations, various happiness in these relationships. I would bet that there's various degrees of wives, girlfriends and partners who check in with their partners, text back and forth, communicate, I don't know, call, send pictures. I don't know, maybe to the level of obnoxiousness. And then there are people who, like, kind of just are like, hey, I'm. I'm gone this weekend. I'll see in three days.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And they're pretty, like, hard to get a hold of. And then when you do, like, your boyfriends might text your call, you're either unavailable or you respond, I don't know, an hour later, and you're just kind of busy, and you're just not their problem. Which one are you? I'm guessing the.

[Sierra]

I would say. I know I land. I definitely land in the middle. I am somebody that likes communication. Communication is my love. Language is words of affirmation. So I am big on. Let's stay in touch. Let's talk on the phone. Let's text. I do occasionally garden when I'm on these trips or just maybe on a regular basis, which gets me a little spacey. I don't know if you know what I'm. I smoke.

[Nick]

Oh, okay.

[Sierra]

Pretty regularly.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Sierra]

Well, you know, so it makes me spacey. And I don't always text back if I'm, like, sitting with my best friend having a deep life conversation.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

I might not text you back for an hour, but I'm pretty good about it.

[Nick]

Otherwise, listen, I mean, teach their own. I'm not here to lecture you. I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. Understand. But is. Yeah. I mean, as someone who's a pretty heavy weed smoker, like, I'm. I'm a very attentive husband and father. So I'm just saying, like, I think you're blaming it on the alcohol, so to speak. A little bit. Yeah. No, at the end of the day, good about it.

[Sierra]

But I will say there are periods where I'm, like, having the deep life conversation where I look at my phone like, an hour and a half later and I'm like, oh, hey, listen, I.

[Nick]

Also want to be clear that, like, that that's not necessarily a problem, you know, like, yeah, there's. There's a couple, I don't know what's her name? Some celebrity woman who's been, like, married for 30 years, and her and her husband live in two different houses. Works for them.

[Sierra]

Or Dolly Parton, her husband was, like, never seen publicly because that's just what worked for them.

[Nick]

Yeah. So anyways, the. It's up to you. Right. But, like, you just have to be self aware.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Nick]

About how available you are emotionally, you know, and how needy are the men that you date and are. Are you dating needy men because they fill some other void in your life that you like, but when it comes to your, like, girl trips, it's really obnoxious.

[Sierra]

Yeah, yeah, that's probably part of it. I will say he the most. The more recent one wasn't as bad about it. I think there were just other things that started to come up that painted a picture that I'm not as invested as he is, which might have been true in some ways. And that's where I think I'm. I think a lot of the things he did were very toxic and unhealthy and reasons that I was like, yeah, you're probably not my person. At the same time, I think it makes me feel some level of guilt to feel that somebody was trying harder or more invested than I was. And yeah, now there's just this messy ending where we just stopped speaking entirely after that phone call. And I'm like, should I just clear the air? Because in my character, I don't have bad blood with anybody.

[Nick]

Yeah, that's more about. Yeah, but this is. But this is definitely more about you than making sure he's okay.

[Sierra]

Yeah, I think because I'm angry about some things or my feelings are hurt about some things, but at the same time, I can easily talk. That's why my question at the beginning is what it is. I can easily convince myself that it's me that's the problem or that it's him that's the problem.

[Nick]

And where did he. Where did, where did narcissists come into this conversation? Why do you think he's a narcissist?

[Sierra]

I think because of an emphasis on looks for himself and for the person he's with as well.

[Nick]

I think there's a huge difference between vanity and narcissism.

[Sierra]

Yeah. As well as there's just a number of things. I started looking into it. I never thought he was. Because I thought there was an element of insecurity there. And I was like, well, if he's a narcissist, he can't be insecure. But then I was looking it up and it's like, actually they can be and they probably are very insecure. So there's a number of things about vanity, about manipulation in certain situations, wanting somebody.

[Nick]

Maybe my, my general opinion about the conversation around narcissists, it's like it's become ridiculous and deluded.

[Sierra]

Like gaslighting.

[Nick]

Yeah, I mean, like, yeah, listen. Our society has never been more self centered and selfish. Like it's. Most narcissists are the one Accusing other people of being narcissists. The selfish person in the room thinks everyone else is selfish because like the selfish person thinks everyone should be focused on them. And when people are focused on other things, that's very offensive to the selfish or not. But like that's all of us. Like, yeah, you know, I mean, you know, a true narcissist. I mean like we have narcissism all over us. We're surrounded by narcissism. Narcissism were incentivized. You know, it's now become a currency. But like in terms of relationships, like, yeah, a lot of people have become more self centered. Everyone out there, a lot of people giving relationship advice. It's just all about like you got to love yourself before you love everyone else. And you know. Yeah, you know, it's just like, you know, if you're not happy then what's, you know, it's like. Yeah, so a certain. I mean but like I really like our update calls. Right. So it is nice to hear that there is some positive impact at times. But I could give advice that I think is great, that the listeners think are great and maybe it is actually pretty solid advice. But the way people often even hear my advice and then they might even hear it the right way. Forget about it. Episode doesn't come out for a few weeks and then they act on what they think that advice is. But they have run that advice through their ego and their insecurity and then it gets kind of. It's like the telephone game. Like in their mind, like they hear the advice, sounds like Nick said this, blah, blah, blah, blah time. They act on this advice or they repeat it back to something else. Like their ego has been like, no, no, no, no. Right. And like again, we are so programmed to make everything about us and our main characters and yada yada, I think. And also like the energy people are spending trying to figure out whether their boyfriend or exes are narcissists. I mean just who cares? What are you going to do with that information?

[Sierra]

Nothing. I think that's probably less. It's so true. Like there's narcissism everywhere. We all are in our own ways slightly narcissistic.

[Nick]

Yeah, I think a lot of it.

[Sierra]

Comes from the oscillation between the love bombing and the courting and then the like punishment over small behaviors that.

[Nick]

Listen, I think there's a lot of. Yeah, there's a lot of people out there. I mean more and more. Like, listen, we have our society overnight. We just became a society of victimhood at first, Everything at first is always meant with for a good cause. You know, it's just like we, we did need to recognize various groups. We need to like, recognize, hey, we need to like care for these people. We need to like recognize our, you know. But then it became like, you know, it's just like one day no one wanted to acknowledge or wanted to be dyslexic because they didn't want to be weird. And then like overnight it was like, at least I'm fucking dyslexic so I can like at least have something to fit in with all the anxious people or the, you know, it's social currency. And listen, at the end of the day, like, I think most people spend time trying to figure out whether their partner is a narcissist because then you get to be in that club too.

[Sierra]

Right.

[Nick]

Did you date a narcissist too? Like, were you a victim of your ex? Like, we, you know, there's a lot of bad behaviors and a lot of it is through us, you know, and like, we are, we are not becoming a society that's more emotional. Like, yeah, we're, we're taking care of our mental health better. You know, we are more aware about that. But a lot of people, like, we've just become big babies. We've become emotionally non resilient and entitled people who feel like our feelings are just about us. Yeah. And as if we feel something, then everyone else needs to stop and recognize those feelings. And everyone's doing that. And then when people don't do and then, well, you know, so then you walk into a room and everyone's doing that to you. Everyone's a fucking narcissist because you're like, I'm feeling sad and no one cares what is going on.

[Sierra]

Yeah, no, it's so fair.

[Nick]

And everyone else is like, well, I'm feeling angry and no one cares. And another person is like, well, I'm anxious and no one cares. I must be only hanging out with narcissists because only narcissists would. Could see my anxiousness and not give a fuck.

[Sierra]

No, I don't blame you for thinking about it. Like I said, we can devalue the narcissist piece because you're right. I mean, that would be like a whole rabbit hole to go down on whether he is or isn't.

[Nick]

And so to me, like, this call is less about like what your ex was. What he is, is not in a relationship with you anymore.

[Sierra]

Correct.

[Nick]

I think reflecting on just like what Are the subtleties when you're in relationships, both like your picker, the men you're dating. And just like as you get old, you're 28. I didn't know where it was going to go when you're going to describe your social life, but I was ready to say you need to grow up. I don't know if I'm in, I'm in a position to say that because your, your social life sounds more than reasonable and a lot of fun and a lot of, you know, I think the fact you have this friend group is, is beautiful and you should hold on to that as much as you can. That being said, friends from earlier life can prevent you from wanting to grow up. And if you really want a partner to have a family with, you're going to have to make sacrifices. Like having one kid. We, we have the perfect kid. She's so fucking easy. Like we're really lucky and she's a lot of fucking work, you know, and it just like, it's just like every day now. We, it's like we've had a lot going on lately, but like, it's like we wake up and we blink and it's like she were late for her bath at night, you know, and we, and we are so lucky because we have so like, we can, we can have help. We, you know, a lot of people don't have the help that we have available to us. And it's just, I'm just saying like, you need a partner and you don't get to just go on monthly girl trips or quarterly girl trips and you just might, you know, you might find a partner who is pretty damn great and you love and you know, you checks, you know, really just a good solid guy, but just might be a little passive aggressive and a little emotionally needy at times that he will have to work through and maybe get therapy and couples therapy. And I'm not saying you have to, but like, you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't know, like everything is a choice. You're not going to find someone perfect. And then the question becomes, is that something you need to do? You know, do you, Are you stubbornly going to these trips and whether it's your smoking weed or just having fun with your girls, do you need to be a little bit more attentive to your partner rather than being this the, you know, the girl who's just like, oh my God, my man's so fucking needy. Ick. Oh God. Like, God, I need an alpha male. Like, I mean, Even the alphas are big babies.

[Sierra]

You know, I don't complain about it. I just go with it because I'm very, I would say I'm very easygoing as a factor of growing up in the household I did, I think my.

[Nick]

And I'm really good at being indifferent. I'm awesome at it. Like, it's a power. But for the people in your life that you want to be, I don't know, grow a family with, you can't be. You know what I'm saying? Like, how I treat Natalie is very different than how I treat, you know, and you could debate whether that's a good thing. But like, I, you know, I love my people and other. I, I'm very, you know, if there's one thing I preach on this show is being mindful of your emotional energy and what, who you give it to and how you give it. And like, I'm, I do try to practice what I preach. And part of that is just like, I give more shits about my people than anyone else and I don't have the bandwidth for stupidity or like, people who are just like, aren't in my fucking line of vision.

[Sierra]

No, that's exactly how I want to be. And I'm definitely focused on the small circle at this point. And I think a lot of my buckets are filled in life. I have a wonderful family, parents who are well off and support me and are generous. But I still work a full time job. I provide entirely for myself. I don't want or need anything from anybody, including my parents. I have wonderful friendships. I have a lot of freedom with a remote job to explore and travel. So I'm not really looking for anything specific around help or financial support or I don't have any friends. Like, I really need to like, have a family to fill my life up. That's not what I'm looking for. I do want to have a family. I want to have kids. I need a partner that adds value to a life that I believe is already quite full and great. I think it's hard to find a balance with a man that's like super confident because I think I would need a guy that's very confident and also successful, ambitious, likes to travel.

[Nick]

Are you dating in.

[Sierra]

I'm dating about 10 years older.

[Nick]

Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

[Sierra]

Which maybe isn't a great thing because it hasn't worked out.

[Nick]

There's more bad options than good options. And just because you generally date men 10 years older than you, which I think is, I think makes a lot of Sense for what you're describing, I don't think you're going to find a lot of 28 year old men in a position to, to give you what you're looking for right now. But there's always exceptions to every rule and you should be open to those exceptions. Always. Yeah. Listen, like you, you know, you're, you're describing a. The more standards you have for yourself, the harder it is to find someone who can meet those standards. I mean, yes, yes, it is what it is. That being said, I would challenge you. And I say this as someone, I think I've had to do that as I've gotten older. I mean you're clearly a confident person. That's great. Like that's a very valuable asset to have. You know, the more confident you are, the more at risk you are to like not being as self aware as you think you are about yourself or your shortcomings or, or the way people talk behind your back or like ways you fall short in a relationship. You know, we all do, you know, because I think really confident people listen. It's a balance. Like confidence does come from a level of fucking delusion, you know?

[Sierra]

Yeah. Oh yeah.

[Nick]

The problem with self awareness is that it does like a, a little bit it affects your confidence. You know, going on tv you're kind of forced to become. I'm always pride of myself in self awareness but the more self aware I've gotten, the more insecurities have come up, you know. So it is a balance.

[Sierra]

It is. And I think that's a challenge for me is that I probably come off really confident. But of course I'm a human and have tons of insecurities and things that I want to get better about or that I haven't fully accepted about myself. And so when I'm looking for a match and like I find the really confident, like you know, I'm also really tall. I'm like almost 5 10. And so height comes into play where. And I feel like I've heard you talk about this on your show about like tall men are sometimes dangerous people.

[Nick]

Well, they're just like, they have their pick of the litter. They just.

[Sierra]

Right. And that's my problem is I don't really like men that act that way. So it's like I don't really know where to land in this, in this space where I want someone that's like me in a lot of ways. But then men that are like me, confident and tall and whatever, successful behave in a way that I would never accept or want around me because I have my own insecurities and I need you to be really attentive to that as well.

[Nick]

That's the thing. Maybe that's your problem. Yeah, maybe that's your.

[Sierra]

I think it is you. I think it definitely is.

[Nick]

You can't, you can't have such high expectations. That includes only dating 1% of men. I know and then expect them and then be so annoyed by their emotional limitations, gaps, or immaturity because, like, hey, you got some of yours. And part of your requirement of this 1% men is to be able to handle your emotional shortcomings.

[Sierra]

Right, Right. So I think just getting a bit more clear on what my actual boundaries and like red lines are, I think will help in that way. But I Instagram it could.

[Nick]

It's like you kind of. And I'm having a bit of fun with you here, but okay, great. You know, because your confidence is important. Like it's a value. You should cherish that. But you have. I think you need to be humbled a little bit.

[Sierra]

I'm getting humbled slowly but surely. Yeah, I think that's a good perspective on it. That I need it. And, and it's a good thing.

[Nick]

You mentioned you get your heart. It's like, listen, you are like people don't like you. Yeah, I could say that to literally anyone, you know, and if people don't like, I know that you know, and the good and great news, because for anyone who I say people don't like you, then I would say you're a fake person. You can't be a real. You know, if everyone likes you, then you are inauthentic person who's just a chameleon to like, please people. And you, like, that's. You don't have real opinions, but people, but, but again, you can't be, you can't be someone who keeps it real and all that likable. You know, the more you keep it real, the more critics you're gonna have. So like, you know, and so I think you walk around and I can say this to you because I feel like I have done this in life and I do this in life. You walk around as if, like you're right about everything and everyone thinks you're awesome for it.

[Sierra]

That's the delusion.

[Nick]

And like, you might, you might be right. But the more right you are, the more you will piss people off.

[Sierra]

Oh, yeah, no, that's. That's the lesson I'm starting to learn. And I think I've taken a much more people pleasing route Just from my childhood and the way sibling, my sibling was and the room that was left for me to be in was to be accommodating, easygoing, don't make a fuss, don't make things harder on anybody. So I definitely have an easygoing side to me that has led into me wanting to be very people pleasing. And as I've grown up I'm like, I simply can't, I can't. Not everyone's going to like me, especially as I develop strong opinions about things in life.

[Nick]

Sure, but you're just that a lot of people. But then you're like, I think the, what you're describing, you feel like you're at describe of acting just kind of like you don't give a fuck about anything.

[Sierra]

I do. I'm just trying not to anymore because I'm learning that there's nothing I can do to control it.

[Nick]

But do you act in different? Like when you're on these girl trips, are you just kind of like, like with your passive aggressive exes, are you countering their passive aggressiveness? But like, oh God, I just, my God, you're so annoying.

[Sierra]

No, no. And, and I think my friends actually critique me on that where they're like, why you, you get so like in your head about them and you change the way you are around us if they're bothering you, if they're like mad at you or something, like you're gone, you're checked out for the night. Like you're not available anymore. So I definitely take it seriously. Like when I was at that wedding and he was upset with me, I sat and like I had a lump in my throat the whole time. Like I had nothing to say to anybody. I was super upset.

[Nick]

In this moment, what do you possibly think he's mad at?

[Sierra]

So in this moment right now?

[Nick]

Yeah. When you had the lump in the throat.

[Sierra]

Oh, oh, well then he was mad that I didn't have a serious a sit down conversation with him about the plus one thing or that I didn't ask mask or try harder to make it happen.

[Nick]

Okay, but like if those were the only two possibilities, regardless of his level of anger, I feel like you can say that, you know. Well, listen, he, I think any logical person could think to themselves, maybe I didn't handle it the best way. Maybe they're upset about it. Fair. But like we've only been dating for a month and like, I mean I, I, I definitely didn't do anything wrong. You know, I, there might have been a miscommunication. We can handle It. But, like, I know I didn't. You know what I'm saying? Like, there might be an apology. You know, I'm not saying you're supposed to workshop this in your mind while at the wedding, but if you have a lump in your throat, like, you can literally just be like, I mean, I didn't. Another guy. I mean, what I. You know, I didn't. Like, what? I don't. Yeah, like, I didn't do any. You know, the lump in the throat is this, like, you know, and I get it. Like, I know I'm kind of reducing this down, but, like, my point is you can't. Emotional intelligence is like the ability to process the triggering emotion that we all feel. That fight or flight emotion that, you know, calling your child to take over and then working through that and then having your adult self kind of be like, hey, you know, by the way, we're not. We're not six anymore. He might have a right to be upset. I can definitely talk to him. Maybe there's some things I could have communicated better, but, like, I still have the right to have fun at my friend's wedding. And I'm sure he will understand because he's an adult. And like, well, this. This will be a step in the right direction, even if it caused a little frustration on his part. Like, you should be able to workshop that and then go have fun.

[Sierra]

Yeah, and I sh. And I should. And do. Except with him, I felt like the lack of safety, the sense that he would just be done over something small like that. And so.

[Nick]

Sure. And that's harder. But, like, yeah, again, you still have to be.

[Sierra]

I have the control.

[Nick]

You have to be able to be like, well, that would be crazy if he would leave me for this. And like, I guess he's not who I thought he was. Yeah, like that. You know what I'm saying? Like, because that would be crazy, you know?

[Sierra]

No, it's 100 true.

[Nick]

That would be like some. Something. Carry on. Sex. Sex in the city. She would pull. You know, she would do that.

[Sierra]

Oh, goodness.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

That's a great way to never do that again with Carrie from sex.

[Nick]

So. No, but he. I mean, and that's. In that scenario. He. No, he would be Carrie. But yeah, I mean, listen, like, you know, and I don't know, maybe it's some embattment. But like, yeah, you got to work through. I don't know, maybe you got some abandonment issues or something. I don't know. That's.

[Sierra]

Maybe.

[Nick]

I'm sure a lot of people listening would Say, and maybe you do, but you know, again, back to the. You know, it's great to be able to identify, but I have abandonment issues. I think everyone does. If you've had a broken heart, if someone's fucked you up by saying, I don't want you anymore, congratulations, you have abandonment issues. But again, that doesn't mean that you can't work through and get better and improve. And it's not an excuse to allow yourself to have a lump in your throat on a, at a. Yeah. At a friend's wedding that you're supposed to enjoy because you're some guy you've been talking to for a month, is being super weirdly passive aggressive for not inviting you.

[Sierra]

Right. We had been together since January at that point, so it did feel like, strange that he, it doesn't matter, but it felt strange that this was something that he couldn't have brought up. We had known about the wedding for months.

[Nick]

This is something 22 year olds have a big fight about two months in, you know, at the same timeline.

[Sierra]

Yeah, 100. It just felt, it felt unhealthy that we weren't able to deal with it in advance. But I should have handled it better. I learned a lesson about that, how to handle it, how to talk about those things. But with the Valentine's Day thing, I think I'm just in a place where it's been a month and some change now, and it's like, do I just let it go without us ever speaking again?

[Nick]

Probably.

[Sierra]

And I'm okay with that. I've accepted that. But if there are things that I contributed to this and that he genuinely believes that I have abandoned him after he opened up to me about things that were upsetting him, then I think it's worth a, A letter or a voice note.

[Nick]

I want something. What do you want from this? I mean, and this, like, anytime you're like thinking, oh, should I reach out to an ex? Right. You really gotta ask yourself, why do you want to do this?

[Sierra]

Just, I really, from a emotional and moral standpoint, like, it is not my character from, with anybody in my life, any ex in my life, to just like, end on such a hostile note and never speak again. Like, you were a big part of my life for a while. I still want to say that. All good. We're not each other's person. Sorry for the pain that caused figuring it out.

[Nick]

But yeah, I mean, I, I, as someone who really like, I, I don't think I, I appreciate you talking about your character. I honestly think we live in A time where like our character isn't just something most people even consider or talk about. So I, I think it's great that you do, but the way you're using the word character right now thinks, I think it's a clever way of your ego saying like, you know, I'm not that kind of person in a way is like an excuse to like, I mean, who gives a shit what he thinks about you? If you think this man is really not doing well out of your selfishness or your actions and you think you're actually helping this person out by just offering him some clarity, you don't think he has, then sure. But like, do you think he's really not fine? You know, do you think maybe he's just, I don't know, but like moral? Like, listen, I don't. This sounds like you guys had a conversation and it just kind of ended and it was almost like you're both pretty, you know, like we were both.

[Sierra]

Hurt by it in different ways. I definitely think he's going through a hard time.

[Nick]

If you want to listen, I'm not saying don't call him, but if you want to, like, if it's like a letter, I'm scared of it.

[Sierra]

I'm scared of what he's going to say because when we broke up in October, he said some pretty hurtful things to me. Very niche. He would pick on a lot of things about the types of clothes I would wear, the color of jewelry I was wearing, like very strange, peculiar things to pick up that.

[Nick]

So I mean that's, you're describing a person who, like when he hurt, when he, he's hurt, you know, like the hurt.

[Sierra]

He hurts others.

[Nick]

Yes, but like, like that's petty.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, so a 40 year old man when he gets, it gets petty and mean and mean. We all hurt people when we hurt. But like that's, that's just, that's petty. And so I mean if he's, if he's petty at 40, this is who he is. If you are going to date older men then you should have a shorter leash. You should, you know, hire slow fire, fast.

[Sierra]

What do you mean by that, a shorter leash?

[Nick]

Well, they, this is, you know, 40 year old men don't change much. If a 40 year old man is going to lose his shit over you not inviting him to a wedding, you know, and you know, and then be petty and mean about it and say things about like how you dress in a way that's not meant to be. Like, you know, I just like that Other one, but better, you know, like, you know, sometimes I've said that and I was like, oh, I probably shouldn't have said that.

[Sierra]

No, that's fine, you know, but if.

[Nick]

He'S just like, you know, honestly, your jewelry makes you look like a blah blah, blah, you know, and it's mean and it cuts and it hurts and it's just like, I'm just saying if this is who they are, you cannot expect much growth from these men, you know.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Nick]

The only hope of dating someone younger and not enough risk is they're not, you know, this for the ladies out there who are dating men in their twenties. He might change. He ain't changing for you. And it's not going to be for at least five to 10 years. So you know, don't be waiting for any change. But you know what I'm saying. But for you, I wouldn't be accepting a lot of bad behavior with middle aged men.

[Sierra]

I think that's a good, good takeaway is that you're right, they're not gonna change much. No matter how much they care about me or love the idea of being with me, they're not gonna change. That's been proven true to me time and time again. And maybe I need to have a lot.

[Nick]

Lifestyle could change. You definitely could find a guy who is just like, you go to his apartment and he, you know, he's got baseball caps and movie posters on his wall and you're like, how old are you? Like he just, maybe he just might need a good woman in his life. But like how he treats people, how he treats his girlfriend, how emotional reactive he is, like that's.

[Sierra]

Yeah, that's not gonna change.

[Nick]

That's not changing.

[Sierra]

Yeah, that's. And I need to be a lot more sensitive to red flags up front because we, we had some early squabbles that he reacted very intensely to and I felt like that was super over the top and it gave me a bad feeling inside. But again I'm like, it's hard for me to find men that I feel like I'm very physically and lifestyle wise compatible with. And when I have that, I make a lot of exceptions for red flags that come up because I'm like, wow, it's so hard for me to like a guy in the first place that when I do I'm just going to make a lot more exceptions than I should because I'm scared I'm not gon finds one I like as much, which.

[Nick]

Is the angels only dating six foot attractive, which I don't Financially successful men are. They're not. They're.

[Sierra]

Yeah, they're pretty terrible.

[Nick]

You're literally looking for less than 1% of people out there. Yeah, just. I mean, I think. Listen, aim big. I did, too, but, like, you know, there you go.

[Sierra]

You did, too.

[Nick]

You do have to accept and acknowledge that. And if you're gonna. If your standards are gonna be that high, you better be fucking great.

[Sierra]

Right?

[Nick]

You know, just. Just know that, you know, you better. You better bring your A game.

[Sierra]

You better be the person you want to attract. And that's what I try to do. But, no, I think you're right about the reaching out thing. If I think it could actually help him. The reason I feel like he's not in a great place is he's been going through a lot with his businesses and his finances. He lost his dog. He. All in recent times. Happens.

[Nick]

I don't mean to sound insensitive, but.

[Sierra]

Like, my fear is that. And he's now, like, even more alone and, like, in a terrible place. And all he was trying to do was just open up about things that bothered him. And then I never spoke to him again. Whereas from my perspective, I was really looking for some change, that if something bothers you, we handle it in a more healthy, constructive way. And when I felt that that wasn't happening and he was getting mad about the Valentine's Day gift I got.

[Nick]

Listen, if you think there's something here with this guy and you reflect on this conversation and you think, listen, there's def.

[Sierra]

Like, no, there isn't.

[Nick]

I. Devonshire. Some red flags. He did, too. And I. I want to clear the air, and maybe. Maybe there's something there. But, like, if you're. If this is about closure and your reputation or, you know, your. I think my ego, let it go. Just move on.

[Sierra]

Okay. Yeah, I think that's what I was looking for because something about the thought of him feeling like, wow, she ruined me. She, like, left me high and dry. I was trying to open up about something, and she made my bad situation so much worse. Like, that makes me feel, like, scared. Like, I want to reach out and clear the air over that, but I don't think this is my person. He said things to me that my husband would never say to me and critiqued me about things that I'm so surprised would even come to his mind.

[Nick]

Yeah, then you need to. You definitely need to move on, because.

[Sierra]

Yeah, I need to just drop it.

[Nick]

Like, this is about your ego, and it's just, like, you want to claim victory or the moral high ground in this relationship. Not necessarily consciously, but you realize that you said some shit too, and you're not perfect, so you want to, like, kind of clean that mess up so that you can be right.

[Sierra]

Yeah, I guess that's, that's part of it is right now I'm feeling, like, really wrong and like he's perceiving me as somebody that's hurtful and damaging, and I, like, can't stand that. I can't stand.

[Nick]

Yeah, that's a you problem for sure.

[Sierra]

Yeah, I need to get over that. Well, I appreciate that perspective because I could have done things wrong, and it's still okay.

[Nick]

Well, that's what's. Listen, like, I will to make some excuses for you, and all of us in the world is like, that's the problem. The way we have taken these words like narcissism, you know, because the truth is, is 99 of all breakups are just breakups. And like, you're supposed to hate your ex and you're supposed to be angry and then focus on all the fucking things they said and that if you were described that to a friend, they're supposed to hate them too, you know, because they're your friend. That still doesn't mean they're a narcissist. But instead, you know, now we've used these words to be like, oh, he's a gaslighting motherfucking narcissist. You dated a sociopath. And bonus, now in addition to, like, getting over him, you get to be a victim.

[Sierra]

No, I don't want to be a victim. Now that you phrase it that way. I'm like, that's, Yeah, I don't want to have that in my brain or in my subconscious.

[Nick]

He's my next call. He's wondering if you're a narcissist, by the way.

[Sierra]

I mean, that is probably something he wonders too.

[Nick]

But I think we all just like, we have to allow people not to like us. We have to allow people to think we're their bad guy. We. You are the villain in probably many people's stories, I guarantee.

[Sierra]

Yeah, I, I, I guarantee that as well.

[Nick]

And that's okay. It's not for you to, like, have any feeling about. It's really even none of your business. But like, just to be aware of it and acknowledge and then, and, and, and accept it. Just let it happen. It's not an excuse to be rude and, and say, I don't give a you don't be kind so that other people think good things of you. You be kind because it's kind, you know, like, feels good. Yeah.

[Sierra]

So, yeah, I. I agree.

[Nick]

All right, well, go forth and prosper. Good luck out there.

[Sierra]

Thank you. All right, Nick, I. It's great talking to you. I listen to your podcasts all the time, so.

[Nick]

Well, thank you for listening.

[Sierra]

I appreciate chat with you one on one.

[Nick]

It was nice talking. All right, take care.

[Sierra]

Thanks for having me.

[Nick]

Bye. All right. Bye. Bye. Well, you know how much we love our dogs, Steve and Jeff. Well, we want to make sure they're around as long as possible without costing us too much. And that's why we are so grateful for the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program because today's episode is brought to you by the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program. In today's world, we insure a lot, from cars to homes to cell phones and even travel plans. But what about insurance for your cat or dogs? Well, with the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program, you can focus on the care your pet deserves and covers what matters most.

[Diana]

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[Nick]

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[Diana]

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[Nick]

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[Diana]

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[Nick]

How's it going?

[Francesca]

It's good. My Name's Sierra. I'm 25, and I'm wondering if I should move on from a rekindled situationship.

[Nick]

Yes. But let's. Let's talk about why. Let's figure out why. I could be wrong. I could be wrong. But I'm 99% sure the answer is going to be yes at the end of this call. But I want to change our mindset. Right. And I want you to think about why am I having a hard time moving on from this situationship? It should be the question that we focus on during this call.

[Francesca]

Right.

[Nick]

Tell me what you wanted to talk about.

[Francesca]

So there's a little bit of context to this. I started talking to my situationship from about a year and a half ago.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Francesca]

We had a more friends with benefits kind of relationship. I wanted to be with him and be in a committed relationship, but he told me he wasn't ready for anything serious. And I did the number one thing that a lot of girls do, and I gave him the benefits, hoping that it would lead into something more.

[Nick]

You try to show him how great of a girlfriend you could be exactly.

[Francesca]

A little bit more context is we actually went to high school together. So we've known each other for a while and we were friends in high school. And then during the time we had started talking, it just didn't go anywhere. So I decided like, hey, this isn't gonna work. You're not picking me, so I'm gonna move on and start seeing other people.

[Nick]

Okay, awesome.

[Francesca]

Yeah, so I started dating someone else. It was about eight months and then it didn't work out. I didn't feel like we were a good fit. And when I broke up with him, my situationship showed back up. After he found out, we broke up a couple weeks later and was like, hey, I messed this up. I regret losing you, and I want to do it right this time.

[Nick]

When was that?

[Francesca]

That was about two months ago.

[Nick]

And is he your boyfriend now?

[Francesca]

He's not my boyfriend.

[Nick]

So then I guess he's not doing it right.

[Francesca]

Yeah, so he says that he doesn't want to move too fast.

[Nick]

Yeah, I don't know what that means. Yeah, I mean, listen, I'll cut him a little slack because like, I've been on a whole, like shooting on our current climate of dating. But yeah, like, I, I know a lot of people are afraid of labels and titles, but you guys had a whole, I don't know, year of time, you know each other, you've had sex and God only knows what else. You know, you've spent some real time, you know, like think about situationship is as ridiculous as they are and as much of a waste of time as they are, you can still really get to know someone to a level of developing emotional intimacy, even if it is a bit one sided. It's certainly, you know, it certainly has its limits because it's often one sided, but you can really do that. And if he is saying that in this period of time where you dated another guy and it really with him and then he, you know, realized that he made a mistake and then, boy, and then, then you break up with him and he's, he's just knocking on your door. It's just like, why is it so hard to be like, listen, I, I don't know if this is gonna work or not, but like, let's just be boyfriend and girlfriend. I don't know, maybe in a week we'll break up. But like, you know, I do know I spent the past, you know, six months regretting my decision to let you go. And then you date another guy. And I thought I was never getting another chance so, like, I want to show you what it's like to be a boyfriend, and I. I want to show you how I can be. And let's get to know each other. Let's develop our emotional. Like, why can't he do that?

[Francesca]

Yeah. So to answer your question, I would say so because we had this situation in the past. I will say he's shown up very differently. He's a lot more emotionally available, and he hasn't this time around said, oh, I'm not ready for a relationship, or I can't give you what you need. He hasn't said that this time. It's actually been the opposite. Like, he seems like he's more of an avoidant type of man. So feelings are scary for him. And I would say he's pretty good at telling me when he's struggling, like, connecting or he needs space. I'm very much the opposite. So we're kind of like, it's a hard balance.

[Nick]

How much do you cater to his needs versus him catering to yours?

[Francesca]

Yeah. So the first time around, I catered to his needs a lot. This time around, I've kind of taken a step back.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Francesca]

And I'm trying to assess if this is really something that I can make work. He has shown up for me.

[Nick]

How old is he?

[Francesca]

25.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Francesca]

So the difference this time is he's actually pursued me, he's taken me on dates. He got me a gift for Valentine's Day. He got me flowers and, like, AirPods, which was nice of him. And it kind of gets rocky because it's just hot and cold with him. So sometimes it seems like he's a hundred percent in. And then he'll be like, I don't know, 50, 50. And.

[Nick]

If this was the first guy, if. If this was a guy that you were describing that you've only known for two months. And I would say, give it time. But this isn't a guy you've only known for two months. This is a guy that you have a lot of history with. It's always interesting because, like, when people are in relationships, bad ones usually not. Not that people are usually in bad ones, but. But when people aren't bad ones, they usually will stay in bad relationships. Because I know he's been dating for so long, you know, it's.

[Francesca]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And then when, like, people, like, you know, start rekindle old situationships, they want to just conveniently, like, pretend that first chapter or second or third or fourth or how many chapters they have, because a lot of situationships have chapters like, this could just be your second chapter. You're both relatively young and you could have like six more to go before you finally are just like done with this bullshit. I don't. Again. Or maybe you marry him. I don't. You know, like, maybe I could be wrong, you know, like, like you guys are young and like I, I, I'm not trying to diminish like the progress he's made, but you are giving me signs of, of a lot of people in your position I'm, I'm very familiar with and I feel like, and, and no fault of your own because I think you are making a concerted effort. You walked away from this guy. That clearly was not easy. That was definitely like a, that was progress. Like that was something you should really be proud of yourself for. Like, it's understandable that like you let him back in, but like, you clearly want this relationship to happen and you like him and like, you're just like, you're biased. You're just, you want this to work so like his shortcomings, you want to like give him the benefit of the doubt. You want to like discover that he's avoidant. Whatever issues that he can't help or that therapy can fix. And you know, and I just got off a call with someone, completely different situation. She's dating men in their mid to late 30s for 40s, right? And one of the pieces of advice as I said to her, it was like, listen, I wouldn't stick around for bad behavior with these four year old men because this is who they are. I said, at least with the 20 year olds there's like hope for them to change. And I said to the people listening, don't take that as reassurance because they're not going to change for you. It's going to take five or 10 years for these men who have whatever issues that are, you know, you know, maybe they are avoidant, maybe they're, you know, they're reactive. Maybe they're avoidant and reactive. Maybe, you know, whatever it is, you know, like we are emotionally very well. Yeah, we should be more, you know, we're far more emotionally immature in our 20s than we should be in our 30s or 40s, right? But like, like all I'm saying is just, it was a great that he came back and it was great that he fought for you. And I really like that he's definitely made improvements. But these are, these are some bare minimum shit you're describing and you're just like, wow, he got me a Valentine's Day gift, and they were AirPods, and I'm a lucky girl. I mean, you know, and I think what I'm saying is I. I think you could ask a lot more of him. I think you could just act like some baddie who's just like, I don't have fucking time for your bullshit anymore. And just tell him exactly what you want. And if he can't give it to you, regardless, if it's because he needs more therapy, he's avoidant. He has a. Whatever his excuse is, it's not your problem, and you just don't have time for it because there are people out there who are ready to date you.

[Francesca]

Yeah, I agree. I have given him, I would say more recently kind of the cold shoulder. So I've been.

[Nick]

That's just a tactic. You know what I'm saying? That's just a. You're. It's just you're. This is. You're playing games. I don't think you're going to listen to this advice, at least not yet. You know, but if I were you, I'd get off this call. And the next time you talk to him, I've been like, listen, you're either my boyfriend or you're not. And I'm not asking you to marry me. And. But, like, if you can't just be my boyfriend and be comfortable with a label, then you are not just in a position to be the type of person I'm looking for. It's just like, that's not that hard, you know? And you should talk. You should treat him like the person you want to date. You are treating him like a little boy that you like and you're trying to mold into the man that you want to date.

[Francesca]

I don't agree with that.

[Nick]

You don't?

[Francesca]

No, I don't.

[Nick]

I don't.

[Francesca]

I don't think that I'm doing that. I actually genuinely like who he is as a person. So I would say he has a lot of fundamental qualities that I look for.

[Nick]

But what about the. Yeah, but why can't he just be your boyfriend? Like, why. Yeah, why does he need more time?

[Francesca]

Like, I want to say, because he. This is what he's told me, that he. His last relationship, like, absolutely broke his heart. He was in love with her.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Francesca]

And how.

[Nick]

He says, how. How long ago is that?

[Francesca]

That was right before we had started talking the first time.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Francesca]

And now he says that he's over her and he's over that, but I think that's why it's hard for him. To step into something that's committed because he's scared to get his heart broken again.

[Nick]

And that's. That's understandable. And I appreciate his vulnerability, but that doesn't mean you. You don't have the right to challenge him or push back. And that pushing back could be like, listen, thank you for sharing. And, yeah, I'm scared, too. I've been burned. I don't know, maybe. Have you ever been burned?

[Francesca]

Yes.

[Nick]

Okay. So, you know, you're like, I've been burned, too, again. Like, us calling each other boyfriend and girlfriend, honestly, doesn't really mean much. It just means that, like, I could just call you my fucking boyfriend. We still have a lot to learn about each other. Like, I don't know, like. Yeah. And. Yeah, I want to take that slow with you, too. Nothing really needs to change other than, like, the fact that, like, these weird excuses of why you can't be my boyfriend, but, like, let's definitely take it slow. And, I don't know, like, you. I don't know. We can't promise each other we're not gonna hurt each other. And, like, that's. That's. That's emotional maturity, you know, Emotional maturity is like, you know. Yeah. Like, 18, 19, 21, 20. You know, we fuck each other up. I always like to use that car analogy, right? Like, you know, this love and dating is this crazy thing, and it just. It has such an impact on our lives, and we get into it with, like, absolutely no experience, and it's, like, no different than getting into, like, a Lamborghini, driving for the very first time, and, like, being like, sorry, I don't know how to drive this thing, you know, but that's what we do, right? And so. Yeah, but, like, you're supposed to have some progress, and so you are just. And, you know, I probably sounded harsh, and I'm sorry, but, like, when I say, boy, I'm sure he's a good guy. A lot of boys are. You do need to expect more from him. You know, you're kind of talking as if, like, you know, it's like, yeah, you've had a broken heart, but I guess that's. But, man, he's a guy with a broken heart, and, boy, he just. He needs to be really taken care of, you know, I. Yeah, I would.

[Francesca]

Say I am a very nurturing person.

[Nick]

That's awesome. Yeah.

[Francesca]

I hold his feelings very highly and all those around me. I think that. So a couple weeks ago, for a little bit more context, we had gone into a little. I don't want to say argument, but it was a disagreement about something.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Francesca]

And for whatever reason, it made him just, like, completely pull away and was like, I don't know if I can give you what you want.

[Nick]

What was this over?

[Francesca]

I don't. You're not gonna like this.

[Nick]

Listen, I have no opinion. I'm just. I'm trying to just give you my. Why I have opinion, but I've. I don't care. I really. I want. What I want is for you to be happy. And the difference between you and I right now is I'm open to your happiness being in the long run. And right now you want to be happy today.

[Francesca]

I mean, I am happy today despite.

[Nick]

Him, but you know what I'm saying? Like, I just. I'm. I don't know if the answer. You know, I just don't know. But, like, if I would love for you to get your way, I would love for this the guy to be, you know? You know, but the. Go ahead. I.

[Francesca]

So, yeah, what happened was I was in Hawaii on a. Just a solo trip, and there was a time difference. I don't have my Snapchat notifications on, so he had Snapchatted me, and I just happened to be on Snapchat at the time, and I went to click on the Snapchat, and he immediately unsent it. And I called him out on it. I was like, hey, why'd you unsend that Snapchat? And he's like, oh, I thought you were asleep. It was for my friend. I was like, okay. He was like, she's in my class. I was like, okay, What? Yeah, she. I said, okay, is this a girl that has a crush on you? Because I know there's someone in his class that has a crush on him. He said, no, it's this other girl who also likes girls, so she's gay. So, yeah, she definitely likes me. He was, like, being very sarcastic, and I was like, all right, whatever. Like, it's not a big deal. But since we haven't had this conversation, are we exclusive if, you know, we're doing the whole talking, getting to know each other thing. Are you seeing other people?

[Nick]

You brought this up.

[Francesca]

I did. In this. At this point in time because I was frustrated, or are you seeing other people? And he said, no, we're exclusive. I'm not talking to anyone else, but we aren't in a com. Like, we aren't in a relationship. I said, that's fine. Like, I get it. So I was more concerned at, like, what the context of The Snapchat was because I thought it was really strange.

[Nick]

Was it a picture or was it a message?

[Francesca]

It was, but I couldn't see it.

[Nick]

What was the picture? Did you ask him?

[Francesca]

No, I didn't ask him because I just, like, whatever at this point. So that's what happened. And he said the way I had reacted to it was not something that he liked. He said it was kind of a red flag of me.

[Nick]

And I'm thinking, this is not good.

[Francesca]

You have so many red flags.

[Nick]

I think one of my most famous lines on this show and asked Nick was, your boyfriend likes having a girlfriend. He doesn't want to be a boyfriend. And this is a guy who very much sounds like he does enjoy having you around. Definitely. That's clear. You. You do bring value to his life. He really probably missed you emotionally taking care of him when you had a boyfriend. And now that he has you back, he's very glad. And I'm guessing the difference between, for him is an exclusive relationship versus, like, whatever he committed or whatever the bullshit is that, like, he thinks that gives him permission to Snapchat girls and even kind of lie about it. Because, like, the lying is just like, well, she would get mad. He convinces himself that she would get mad. And I'm not doing anything wrong, so I'll just lie. Which is, like, one of the most common and immature things people do in relationship is convince themselves they're right and then lie about it because they know if they told their partner the truth, they would get mad. And then it's weirdly not lying. It is stopping from their partner from overreacting. And I. You know, my gut tells me that's what he's doing.

[Francesca]

I agree with you. That's where my gut feeling went too. So after that conversation, he told me that he needed some time to reflect and think. And at that point, I was pretty fed up. So I. I gave him his space. It was like, five days. I didn't reach out to him because I was like. Like, if you want to be with me, if you want to continue to pursue me or see me, this is. The ball's in your court now. Like, I'm not doing that again. I'm not gonna chase you like I did the first time, because I don't have the energy for it. So I didn't talk to him for five days. I didn't text him. I didn't call him. And every single day, he would check in with me at least once and tell me, oh, I miss you. I am just, like, in my head right now. And I basically told him, I don't care if you miss me. You can miss me and not want to move forward with me. Like, that doesn't mean anything to me. Like, don't talk to me and waste my time if you're not going to move forward. And like, we're not going to continue to get to know each other. So the five days goes by, he says he wants to talk in person. We meet up and he's telling me, like, I do want to continue moving forward. I just don't want to move too quickly. So I agreed because at the same time I was like, you know what? Right now, after your behaviors of that specific incident, I wasn't like, oh, I want to make you my boyfriend right now too, because I also have the option. So it did it also put a bad taste in my mouth, that situation.

[Nick]

I hear you.

[Francesca]

I was like, you know what? I'm, I'm fine with that.

[Nick]

Yeah, but you're still just as emotionally invested.

[Francesca]

Yes.

[Nick]

Yeah. So it really, I don't know, it's really up to you. The through line of everything I talk. It doesn't matter what the call is. Right. It's just, it just comes down to managing your emotional energy and you get to pick where it goes. And I honestly find that the key to happiness is getting better at prioritizing where you spend your emotional energy. Do you spend it on things that make you happy or do you spend it on things that make you sad or anxious or whatever? And despite you liking this guy, he just, he doesn't make you happy. I mean, he does give you the opportunity to use and express a love language. And I think when you do care for this man emotionally, it really brings you value because, like, you probably have a very nurturing heart and Acts of Service is probably a love language of yours. So it's not like completely one sided but like, he doesn't make it. Doesn't he? Doesn't he? I don't know. He doesn't make you all that happy. You know, your emotional energy is usually around him, anxious and confused and frustrated and just like questioning things constantly because, like, it's always on his terms. And sometimes you can convince yourself that his terms match your terms when you also don't want to, like, because he's being a dick or, you know, overreacting or just like kind of acting like, did I? You know, maybe a little even gaslighty. You know, potentially this man is snapchatting other girls and telling you he can't do this because he doesn't like how you're acting and he's seeing red flags from you. And again, you're right. He's not your boyfriend. So like, you know, but he's operating in the gray on purpose and he doesn't want to acknowledge that. That and probably because he's convinced himself that he is the victim.

[Francesca]

Yeah, probably.

[Nick]

You know, because I'm sure his broken heart is. It was broken, you know, I'm sure it really him up, like. And I think honestly the advice I gave to the. I'm sure he's a great guy, but right now it doesn't sound like he's the man that you want to date and the man that probably is deserving of you. And I don't. I wouldn't expect a ton of progress from this person anytime soon. And you are setting yourself up for very long and a very emotional like up at roller coaster with this person that could last years and almost never ends the way you want. The bright side, if you opt into this journey is that you'll learn a lot about yourself, you know, but there'll be some real tough lessons that I hope that you choose to avoid. I didn't. I did not choose to avoid them.

[Francesca]

Yeah, I also, I have a more traditional outlook on relationships too. So I definitely. I'm younger, but I do want to find my person and like, settle down at an earlier age, I would say. But I agree with you. Like, maybe he's just not there or he's not there. We know that.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Francesca]

So.

[Nick]

But I, you know, in the meantime, because I don't know if you're ready to let him go. Maybe just practice, like, just not accepting his, you know, just tell him what you want. He can, he can set your boundaries, enforce your boundaries. He can accept them or not. That's his choice. But just be the assertive person who's just like, you know what? That's not good enough. And these aren't red flags. I asked a very simple question. Like, you are like, why aren't you messaging other girls on Snapchat? Like, you. And again, it's fine if you are, but like, you did come to me and say, I'm sorry, I almost lost you. I'm ready to be different. You. You literally asked for a second fucking chance with me. You asked me. And you have the nerve to be getting mad at me because I'm, I'm questioning why you're messaging other. Sending pictures to other girls. Come on.

[Francesca]

Yeah, that's.

[Nick]

Listen, like. And I, I know this is tough love, Nick. And I'm being hard, but like, and I only. Just. Because it's just like you're at a very pivotal point in your life right now and, you know, I don't know if you, it. This person could really you up. Like, this is a, this is a story as old as time.

[Francesca]

Oh, that's great. I love hearing that.

[Nick]

You know, I agree. Yeah. It's a. You can learn a lot about yourself, you know, but the good news is, is like, people who are in your position, like, you're going to find your person because, you know, the, the, the trick for you is to find someone who really is going to. Because clearly you are willing to give in a relationship. That, that's obvious. You are willing to do your part. Your problem is you're, you're too willing to do their part too, and then convince yourself that they need you and then you feel good about that. Yeah. And you just can't do that. Right. Because the more of their part that you do, the, the, you know, you know, they start thinking it's their part to do it too. They're like, oh, like, it's like dating the, the guy whose mom did his laundry the whole time and he's just like, I don't do laundry now. I also don't do laundry because I fucking hate laundry. And it turns out my wife loves it and I will do the dishes.

[Francesca]

Yeah, I would say I do struggle with that in relationships. I tend to have a more dominant personality. So I think I kind of seek out men who I don't want to say are below me, but maybe at a different point in life and different lifestyle than me.

[Nick]

That's self aware.

[Francesca]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

And do you want a partner or do you want, want a guy to provide and, and give you kids? Because honestly, like, some men and women get into relationships for different reasons. Some people have partners, some people have husbands.

[Francesca]

I want a partner. I want someone who's able to provide. I think because my career is so demanding, I have very high expectations. I know it doesn't seem like it, but I do.

[Nick]

You're. I, you know, not. I. Not to like. I hope this doesn't sound condescending, but you're, you know, you're still relatively. You're young and you're still figuring it out what your boundaries and standards and expectations should be. You know, so this is. As long as you're learning through this experience, it's fine. But learning means reducing the amount of second chances and, and doing the same thing over and Over.

[Francesca]

Yeah. So I guess I should just maybe see, like, if he changes since we said we would agree to move forward and, like, get to know each other. Or should I set a hard date? Like, if he doesn't ask me to be his girlfriend, I wouldn't set a date.

[Nick]

I mean, if. If you're going to set a date, the date should be today. Because again, what you're asking is the lowest of lows. You are saying you're. All you're asking is like, yeah, I want. I want to be okay with you not Snapchatting other girls. Point blank, period. I don't want. I want to just trust that you want. You have to see if this guy wants to be a boyfriend. He does not want to be a boyfriend.

[E]

All right?

[Nick]

And so being exclusive to you is. But it's like he just doesn't want to have. He's fine with. He doesn't really want to have sex with other girls.

[Francesca]

Oh, we're not having sex. That was a boundary that I made when we started talking again. I told him that there's going to be no intimacy this time around unless we're in a committed relationship. So he's not getting any of those benefits this time.

[Nick]

Those benefits. And that's. I'm glad you did that. But then that, that tells me he. He benefits in other areas from you. Like, because clearly he likes having you around. But what are you getting from him?

[Francesca]

Yeah, that's a great question.

[Nick]

Other than the opportunity to have him.

[Francesca]

Yeah, he does bring things to the table. Like, he does things. He does things for me. Like if I'm sick, like, he'll check in on me and he'll bring me soup or food. So he does these things. That's why I say it's like this gray area, because he'll do these boyfriend things and take care of me or ask me if I'm okay.

[Nick]

What is he willing to give up for you?

[Francesca]

I'm not. That's a good question. He's very work oriented and goal oriented, I would say. I wouldn't say selfish, but he definitely puts himself first, which is what I would ask my partner to do anyways.

[Nick]

That's great. And listen, that. What are you. What is he willing to give up for you? Doesn't really have to be a lot has in 20. You know, it shouldn't be each other's careers or jobs. Short of like you guys having these, you know, it really shouldn't be much. All it should be is peace of fucking mind. You know, like the, The. The Ability. What he needs. What he needs to be willing to give up for you is 100% in complete autonomy and to. And. And freedom. You know, he has to give up the ability to do whatever he wants, when he wants. Because if you're an adult who is single, who doesn't have kids, then no one gets to tell you what to do outside of work. You answer to no one. And that's kind of fun. And if you want a girlfriend or a boyfriend on some level, you have to give some things up. Shouldn't be much. But if it means just not Snapchatting other girls or flirting with girls or, you know, just the freedom to, like, you know, not say, well, I can't do that because I have a girlfriend, that's what he doesn't want to give up.

[Francesca]

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely something that I could sit down and ask him and see how the conversation.

[Nick]

He doesn't know the answer. You. You need to know that answer. This is not about you guys agreeing on this. It's just. You need to know that so that you can say, that's fucking crazy. And so that's why I'm just gonna be like, do you want to be my boyfriend or not? And again, to reiterate, you just like, if that's too much for you, you're not. You know, because I'm. I'm not. We have a lot. Like, we. We have a lot. We should take it slow. For sure. I want to know that, like, you want to be my boyfriend and that you want to. The basics of being a boyfriend, like.

[Francesca]

Just, you know, when I ask him these things and he tells me he feels pressured, is that just the way of a guy saying, like, I'm not ready yet, but I'm just gonna stick around until maybe it might be true.

[Nick]

But, like, do you want to date a guy who feels pressured? I mean, that sounds kind of. When you break it down, it's kind of weak and pathetic.

[Francesca]

No, I don't.

[Nick]

I would challenge him. Is just like that, Bro, you. Come on. Oh, if that makes you feel pressure, man, I don't know what his line of work is, but, like, bro, you.

[Francesca]

Know, like, yeah, he does have a pretty stressful job too, so.

[Nick]

Oh, if that's too much for him, then, you know.

[Francesca]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So that's the thing. You don't even have to, like, analyze or ask your friends. Be like, is this an excuse? Like, take him. Take him at his word. But if you're really taking him at his word, what does that say about him?

[Sierra]

That he's not ready or that he's.

[Nick]

Like, kind of a weak person. Because some guy who feels pressured by some girl, he's spent. If you add up all the time, like, how many months have you guys been dating? If you include all the times situation.

[Francesca]

Started, like, 10 months.

[Nick]

10 months and 10 months, he feels pressure because the girl he's been dating for 10 months just wants to know if he's like, can be his boyfriend. And then keep in mind, you guys can break up literally the next day, and that's too much for him.

[Francesca]

I don't have an answer. That's. I mean, it's a good perspective to reflect on. I can.

[Nick]

Like, is that the man that you want protecting your children? Who feels pressured by a label?

[Francesca]

No.

[Nick]

Like, what? Kind of. Like, imagine the. But serious, you know, that's what I'm saying. Like, obviously, he probably is as full of shit and, you know, whatever. But the point is, because you can protect your emotional energy and waste a lot less time by just taking people at their word and seeing them for who they are by the way they act and how they described their limitations to you. You should treat them like the boyfriend you want and the person he is. And what I mean by that is it's like, in terms of your standards, your standards should be, this is the boyfriend I want. Not, well, this, but, like, he can't do it because he's avoidant. Well, then that's a him problem. And then in terms of, like, treat him how he acts. Well, if he acts like a guy who can't handle pressure, then ask yourself, do I want a guy who can't handle pressure to be my man?

[Francesca]

Yeah, I do know I don't want a man like that, so. Quite the opposite, actually.

[Nick]

So, yeah, you know, if you want a man, you gotta treat him like a man.

[Francesca]

All right. Yeah, I could do that.

[Nick]

All right.

[Francesca]

I actually have a pretty cold side to me if I need to, so.

[Nick]

All right, let's tap in it with this guy. Listen, listen, I'm giving. I'm being. Obviously, I'm giving you some very direct and, like, tough love, but, like, you have a lot going through. You are really young. Like, you've did a lot of things faster than I would have at your age. So just. It's just. Just see it through.

[Francesca]

All right, I will do that.

[Nick]

All right, take care. I would love an update. Whatever you decide with this guy in.

[Francesca]

The future, I can definitely give you an update.

[Nick]

I'm invested.

[Francesca]

All right.

[Nick]

All right, take care. Thank you for your call. All right, Bye bye bye.

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[E]

Hi. I'm doing well. My name is Diana. I'm 29 and I'm wondering how I can get closure from my ex who dropped me in one day.

[Nick]

What do you mean by one day?

[E]

In 24 hours, it went from I will do anything to be with you and I am willing to make lots of sacrifices to 24 hours later saying there's no chance in hell I'm going to do any of that.

[Nick]

Like verbatim.

[E]

Not verbatim. There's a lot. There's a lot of content.

[Nick]

How long were you guys dating for?

[E]

We dated for a year and a half.

[Nick]

Oh, okay. What were you asking of him?

[E]

So I was asking him to convert to Judaism for me.

[Nick]

Okay.

[E]

Yeah. Which is obviously not a small ask, which I know. And it was an ongoing conversation.

[Nick]

Is he religious?

[E]

He was raised very religious and had a lot of trauma around religion. He was raised Christian and yeah. Had a negative experience.

[Nick]

Gotcha with that. And I'm just curious. I don't even know if this is really helpful for your question, but I'm curious. So thanks for indulging me. But it's helpful Context in case it might when you were asking him to convert. Like, what is your relationship with your faith? Like, how hardcore are you? Is it more like, listen, I just want my partner to be Jewish. Yeah, I go to synagogue once in a while, but like. Or I go every week and I just. If I get married to the man who I have kids with, I want us to like, have a community and go to cynic, you know, and. But like, I don't need you to like, be like, reading the Bible and, you know, be hardcore. And I honestly don't even really care if you even buy any of this stuff. I just want you to kind of be a part of my community. Or were you like, expecting him to.

[E]

Like, believe the first option? I was raised, like, relatively traditional, but as I've grown up, I sort of have my own relationship to religion. I don't consider. Consider myself religious at all, actually. It's much more of like a cultural thing for me, which, you know, he came around to the holidays, he met my family, he understood sort of my stance on it. It's much more for me, it's just important that, you know, my future family, our future kids would be raised with a certain level of understanding of their culture, their background, etc.

[Nick]

I totally get it. I totally get it. I just wasn't sure which one it was. Yeah. How long were you guys having a conversation about. About this?

[E]

So it was always sort of on the table and it was the kind of thing where, like, I have only ever dated Jewish guys. Seriously. This is my first time being in a serious relationship with someone who didn't share that. So I was kind of using the time to figure out if it was actually super important to me. And I think he was taking the time to consider for himself if it is something he was willing to do. It wasn't until December of this of last year where I made the firm sort of like it is a deal breaker for me kind of after a year. Ish.

[Nick]

Of what does this process look like? I'm just curious.

[E]

I'm honestly not entirely sure. I think it's different depending on like, which rabbi you go to. I think it can be relatively chill. A couple months of like once a week doing a course. It depends, like how observant, how religious you are. But I would probably opt for like a middle of the road sort of.

[Nick]

What is middle of the road?

[E]

Or I don't know, like it's called conservative, like not orthodox. But I know a bunch of people who have converted and it's just Like a couple months of.

[Nick]

And why horses? And I don't know if I'm fully like if there was a path of least resistance and like a, a drive by rabbi could just be like, you know what you are, you're Jewish now, why wouldn't you opt for that if, if that, like, if something like that were available.

[E]

Right. And I think something like that is available, but I do want there to be a little bit of, you know, interest on my partner's end.

[Nick]

At what pace and what's your limit? You know, like, I mean understand the holidays. Understand like just understand the importance of.

[E]

Yeah, the stories, the history of, you know, it's, it's a rough history. Like just understand, have that context and like be kind of knowledgeable enough to know what the holidays are when they happen.

[Nick]

I'm curious. You mentioned rough history. Obviously I'm familiar with what you're speaking of and obviously the anti Semitism in this world right now is at a scary level. But that's my question to you is forget about the conversion part. Did you feel like your non Jewish boyfriend empathized with you as a Jewish person in your community and the plight that Jewish people have to endure on a regular basis? And do you feel like at the holidays he had participated with you? Do you feel like he picked up on and at least educated himself whether he believed and actually personally gave a shit? But just how, well, how much?

[E]

First question. Yes, I think he did empathize with the plight of what it is to be a Jewish person and some of the everyday struggles and difficulties and challenges that we have to face. With the holiday part, I definitely got the vibe that he was coming to these things with my family. For me, there wasn't a lot of curiosity or willingness to be like, let me see what this is all about. It was very much just like, we're going to this dinner tonight and I am participating, but there wasn't really any questions, any curiosity. It was just like an obligation.

[Nick]

Listen, I, I, when it, it's, I think it's just a very interesting. You can't make someone believe 100%. Right. So if we understand that, then you have to like really, I think be real with yourself about like what you really are asking someone when you're asking them to convert and are, you know, and I think you have to be really honest with yourself about the importance of the idea of something versus the reality of something. Because if what I'm hearing from you and we'll get into the. But I am fascinated by this conversation.

[E]

I Know it's a good one.

[Nick]

When you get into the, like, will you convert? For me, it's just like, again, you can't make people believe.

[E]

I can give a bit more context as to what I told him as to why it would be important for me.

[Nick]

Okay.

[E]

It's very nuanced, and I don't think he ever fully wrapped his head around it. But what I. What I sort of told him was that, like, I would be willing to, like, if he were to convert, it would signify to me that, like, even if we do have differences in opinion about how we want to raise a family and, you know, how we want to be a Jewish couple, Jewish family, even if we did experience differences about that, like, him converting to me tells me that we are like a team and that we are both willing to sacrifice.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[E]

100% things together and, like, carve our own path as a, like, unique sort of Jewish couple.

[Nick]

Are you guys engaged?

[E]

Converting?

[Nick]

Were you engaged? No. Okay.

[E]

No, we were not.

[Nick]

Gotcha.

[E]

We talked about it, though. Like, we kind of had our. Just out of curiosity, the next couple years planned out.

[Nick]

I'm totally on board with. And just out of curio about when you talked about this. What was the timeline in which you needed this, like, now, like, an answer. His willingness to convert?

[E]

Well, I. I kind of told him. And this is. I didn't need him to convert right away. It's more like if we were to get married, that would be a step that he would have to take. But in terms of, like, I need an answer when. I mean, I'm turning 30 this year, and I was like, I don't really want to be, like, turn 30 in a relationship I'm unsure about. So that was sort of my.

[Nick]

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. It's just there are subtleties, obviously, with that line of questioning and. Cause, like, for him, converting is getting married. Married, you know. Yes, that's.

[E]

I mean, we definitely talked about marriage. We, like, the relationship was very serious.

[Nick]

Yeah. And totally. I'm just saying, like, just. I. Maybe you already assumed this, but, like, the process of him converting. He's only converting because he would marry you, you know, so, like, he definitely doesn't want to do that with a girlfriend. And the idea of talking about that with a girlfriend, even though you guys. I mean, I don't know the seriousness of your relationship, but, like, it's just. Even if he was willing to do it for his wife. Wife. So to speak, you know, she. He still needs to make sure that he wants this person to be his wife. And so I think I would imagine it's challenging to, like, this is the idea of converting a religion for anyone. I think it's just like. Especially if they have a history with religion. I mean, and he does. Right? Like, it's.

[E]

I know I should have. I should have known from the jump, but it was a very strong relationship. So I know you say don't. Don't rely on hope, but I was like. And there were signs over the year and a half that he was, like, kind of down. So it was very much just hanging on to.

[Nick]

What was the summary of your pitch to him and what was his response?

[E]

I guess the summary is kind of what I said before. I always have known that I wanted a Jewish partner. I've only ever been in serious relationships with Jewish partners. I love this man so much that there were certain things that I know I was willing to bend on. For example, Christmas. Like, I went to his family's and had a great time. And I think there is a way that we could have made that work for our future family. But again, what I told him was like. Like, him converting is signifying to me that, like, we are a team. We are this unique Jewish couple that together will make decisions that we both agree on, versus if we ended up together and he didn't convert, I feel like we would kind of always just be at odds. And that's kind of how I pitched it.

[Nick]

Okay. And. But when you said, are you saying it. Your willingness to convert, or are you saying if we get married, knowing that you would be willing to convert when we get married is important to me?

[E]

No, it wasn't that. Because I never really doubted that.

[Nick]

It wasn't what.

[E]

We were very serious. Like, we. Like, I knew that he envisioned marriage with me.

[Nick]

Yeah. But I, like, it wasn't a.

[E]

It wasn't a question.

[Nick]

I've envisioned marriage with people I didn't end up marrying. I've envisioned marriage with girlfriends I've dated for a week. Week. I'm just. I'm just.

[E]

We thought we talked about our future. We talked about our kids.

[Nick]

I don't doubt it, but I think here, the disconnect and I just. Listen, I.

[E]

Maybe I'm not understanding the question properly.

[Nick]

I feel for you because, you know, also, I really like the show. I'm sure you watched it. I don't know how you feel about it.

[E]

Oh, we watched it together. Nobody wants this.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we watched it together.

[E]

It was like, low key, kind of awkward, interesting.

[Nick]

But this is a man that you said has known your importance of marrying someone in the Jewish faith, has talked to you about marriage and has at times expressed to you a willingness to possibly do this. And then overnight your words.

[E]

Well, there was a fight that led.

[Nick]

To, but it doesn't matter. And that's what I'm trying to get to is what did you say in that fight and what did he hear.

[E]

That caused the fight was about something else.

[Nick]

What I still want to know is.

[E]

The fight was about some. Okay, okay.

[Nick]

If we're talking about convert, I just like, to me it's just like, what changed? You know? And.

[E]

Well, I can tell you what changed. It was a fight about something else, which is part of the complexity of the story.

[Nick]

What was the fight about?

[E]

So we had a conversation about conversion. Maybe a week prior to this fight, he sort of expressed some concerns. We had a long chat about it. I explained to him, like he asked a few questions, I explained to him and then we left that chat. I left that chat feeling great. Like his mind sort of shifted. I think he had a perception about what it would be like and I was able to kind of explain to him that that wouldn't be the case. So I kind of like eased his mind in a few ways about what that process would be like. And we left that chat feeling great at the same time, and I'm going to try to keep it short because it's a long story, but I was going for a job that I was recruited for.

[Nick]

Okay.

[E]

I had done two calls with the recruiter and my meeting with the team was scheduled for later that week. On the day that. I think it was on the day that I went in for that interview. They also reached out to him, my ex. We work in the same field. We met at work. We were coworkers. It was like a very.

[Nick]

So now you're competing for this coworkers somewhere else. Same dream job.

[E]

So I had already interviewed and he was cheering me on. He was saying, call me in the morning, we can go over some questions. You're a shoo in for this job, you're going to kill it. Then they reached out to him and he told me he wanted to go for it. I expressed to him that that would hurt my feelings, but ultimately I was like, I can't stop you from going for this job. I ultimately want success for you because like, if he gets a, a good job with a big nice salary increase, I, I also benefit from that. Right. So, yeah, in a way, hopefully. So I, I said to him, I don't know, I. You you were very much supporting me. You told me I was a shoe in. It just feels a little bit icky to me that you would say these things and help me prep for the interview and help me pick out my outfit and then you don't think competitors.

[Nick]

Can'T help each other out.

[E]

It was a, it was kind of tough. Like, some of the people that I asked, some of my friends were like, may the best man win. Other people were like, like, your man should be your biggest cheerleader and supporter. And if he's cheering you on for a role, listen, like, there's, you shouldn't go for it.

[Francesca]

So.

[Nick]

Yeah, but you, you, you hear me say there's exceptions to every rule. And this is a very unique situation. I know, where you're in the exact same line of work and, and you're both career oriented, ambitious people who potentially could be put in a position to compete for the same dream job. And in that situation, that doesn't apply to, to most people. Yeah, it's, you know, it's hard. You, you have to consider the variables for people, like, well, your man should. It's like, well, like, maybe, yeah, sure. I mean, like, but like, when it comes to that, for me, my brain was just like, you gotta have to try to separate that, you know, in a way, you know, or just acknowledge that it's not the same as your friend and her partner. And, you know, because they, they literally can't compare, you know, so for them to say, well, well, Mark would, blah, blah, blah, it's like, how do you know what Mark would do?

[E]

Yeah, and it is something that I kind of did struggle with. And that's sort of why I. There was not one time, never that I said, do not go for it. I said, you can like 100% if.

[Nick]

You want to go for it. You thought about it so clearly.

[E]

I said, if you want to go for it, go for it. Just know that it does. It upsets me. I feel a little bit weird about it.

[Nick]

It.

[E]

It's not sitting 100% right with me. But ultimately, like, if this is a choice that you want to make.

[Nick]

But do you understand how someone hearing those words would take that?

[E]

Yes, for sure.

[Nick]

It's just like, there's no point in, like, softening that message because they don't hear any of the softening. They just hear, I feel weird about it. I'm very unsettled by this. You know, they're not hearing, I'm not telling you no, and you should go for it if you want it, you know, that's not what they're hearing. They're just hearing all the ways you're pissed off about it.

[E]

I guess I just didn't know another way to.

[Nick]

I think he just listen, like. Yeah, I mean, listen, like. But I think you. The way you say, you know, it's just like, just. Just own your feelings, at least as what I'm saying.

[E]

Yeah. Yes, I did. And there were times that I was like. Like, look, I don't know why I'm feeling this triggered by it, or I don't know why it's upsetting me this much.

[Nick]

So you at least acknowledge that, like, maybe you weren't right to feel the way you felt.

[E]

Yes.

[Nick]

Okay. And how did he respond?

[E]

So it was a few days of kind of back and forth. At first he was like, no, you know, I don't think I should go for it. Like, they came to you first. And then the next day he was like, oh, you know, they keep asking me for a call and. And he was really involving me in his decision.

[Nick]

Okay.

[E]

And at a certain point, I remember he was off. He was off work for a few days and I was at work, and he was texting me these paragraphs about it, and I was busy and kind of at this point, it had been days of this ongoing chat. So the texts literally say, like, if you would 100% take this job, if you got it, you should go for it. I will not stand in your way of going for this job. Like, I was texting him these things, and over and over again, he was like, again, I don't think our ego should be in the way here. Like, we should let them decide. Like, he was.

[Nick]

I think you guys are texting about this stuff.

[E]

Well, this was after, like, multiple conversations. But, yes, we were texting because I was busy at work and he wanted.

[Nick]

Were they conversations or fights?

[E]

This was a conversation. But, you know, the tone was like, he was sending me paragraphs and I was busy. So I think my answers were a little bit short. But it. Like, I can read them to you. It's literally my responses are. Then you should go for it. Like, I will not stand in your way here.

[Nick]

He's sending paragraphs in your responses. Then you should go for it.

[E]

Kinda. I mean, not like, he wasn't sending, like, scrolls, but he would send.

[Sierra]

Like.

[Nick]

I'm just. I'm just. This was clearly. You guys fought. I mean, this was. You fought over this?

[E]

Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a heated convo, and then.

[Nick]

I don't even know what that says about Your guys's relationship, but it certainly says something.

[E]

Yeah, it's just like such a unique dynamic for two people in a relationship to have to navigate is that. And then that neither of us really.

[Nick]

Did that escalate your urgency around understanding his willingness to convert at that point?

[E]

No. So what happened was after work, I called him, we talked about it some more. He kept trying to justify why he wants to go for it. And I. At this point, and we were on the phone, I was driving home, and I was like, we're beating a dead horse. I don't know what else to say. You know my stance. I think you should go for it. I think you want to go for it. And if that is the case, you should go for it knowing that it hurts my feelings.

[Nick]

That's it. See that. That last part, that just kills me that you say, because, like, at first I'm like, oh, actually this sounded pretty nice. And, like, what's his problem? But again, you're not saying he should go for it. And that's. And I. If I'm giving you direct and tough. If I'm giving you some tough love feedback here, if your goal was to effectively communicate with your boyfri, you know, you're saying one thing and doing another, you know, you're saying, go for it, but it's gonna hurt your feelings. You know, it's like. And I understand that's your trying to be transparent. Sure. But I think there's just probably a more productive way for both of you. And I'm not putting this all on you. I mean, at some point, you guys need to sit down in these many conversations and just say, listen, like, we both care about our jobs, and that's awesome. You know, I don't. We're only dating now. We talk about getting married, but, like, like, if we're going to be together, then at the end of the day, this is a good thing for both of us, regardless of what. If assuming one of us get it. And if not, like, I guess we'll have bigger problems when it comes to you and I down the road, when I realize, I guess we're, you know. But, like, we both want this job, so let's both support each other, and may the best person win. And whether you guys can decide whether you're gonna study together, help each other, and literally go into the interviews back to back, like in the office when, you know, Jim and Pam, Jim and Pa for the same job. Karen. Or it was Karen and truly just like, be like, yeah, like, good. Good fucking luck. I definitely don't wish you get it because I want it. But, like, good luck and I'm proud of you. And you worked really hard on this and you fucking deserve this. And you both say that to each other and just let it play out like that would.

[E]

I guess I just don't see it that way.

[Nick]

See it.

[E]

I hear you. Like, my perspective was more like, we're not married, we're just dating. I don't know if this is going to work out. You told me last week that you were feeling iffy about converting, so I need you to. I need to be selfish here and like, again.

[Nick]

And you being selfish was getting your boyfriend to pass on a job opportunity because they called you first.

[E]

But that's. I didn't tell him to pass. I told him that he can make his own decision about.

[Nick]

And that's. That's. You, like, listen, you just. Like, I. You don't. You can disagree with me, but I'm telling you from a communicating standpoint, you essentially did tell him that, and you kept telling that. And the reason this man is sending you paragraphs of texts after long conversations. He wanted your permission. He wanted to guilt free, move forward with this, like, to go after this job because he didn't want to, like, feel like he was stealing something from his girlfriend. And he really wanted your permission and you never gave it to him because it always ended in a but.

[E]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And listen, there's no wrong. But you need to, like, what you're doing. Like, what you're having a hard time is you still think you're more justified than him. And I don't think either of you are more justified than the other.

[E]

Yeah, Like, I. I don't really know what the right.

[Nick]

I mean, like, this comes tone. You got called first.

[E]

I did. Like a month before him.

[Nick]

Then you act like that matters.

[E]

I think it does matter. Maybe this is just me. Like, I'm. Yeah, I feel like it does matter.

[Nick]

From a professional standpoint, from a partner standpoint. But you gotta understand that, like, the contradiction is. But the contradiction is. I get it. You're just like, listen, I don't know if you can convert, and therefore, I don't know I'm gonna marry you. So, like, I want this job, you know?

[E]

Yeah. Like, I'm not gonna step.

[Nick]

But he's also like, well, I don't know if I'm gonna convert. I don't know if I'm marry you, so I want this job. And you're. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're Asking him to, to do the same thing that you're. And that's all human, but you guys are both wanting the other person to give up on this thing that they want. And that's bullshit by both of you. And so the least you guys could do is just shake each other's hands, respect each other as lovers, as professionals, as people who believe in each other. And just like, you know what? May the best man win. Because it's like, it's like someone is going to win. And you should, you should. I don't care if it's your boyfriend, your colleague, you should be able to compete, lose, and be happy for the person that beat you. And if you can't, that's definitely something you should work on.

[E]

Yeah. Yeah. I keep kind of just thinking like, and you're probably going to be like, that's so dumb. But had they reached out to us all this at the same time, and there wasn't that element of my man calling me a shoo in for the job and hyping me up, like, I think that was just the hard pill for me to swallow was like, how can you call me a shoe and say I'm the perfect candidate? And turn around and say, actually I also think that I am the perfect candidate. Like, had they reached out to us in the same week, same day, whatever, my opinion would be a thousand percent different.

[Nick]

I mean, I believe that, but I don't. I think what it is, is I think you need to at least acknowledge that it's personal. And when we're personal, you're biased. You just want this and that's totally fine. But like, it doesn't make you right and you think you're right.

[E]

I mean, I do think I'm right. I also did communicate. I was like, I can't tell you why. I'm like, I acknowledge the fact that it is unfair, maybe that I feel this way, but.

[Nick]

Yeah, but you're, you're discounting what he needed from his partner in that moment. Moment. And you are just thinking of yourself and that's fine. But like, you're trying to pretend to be his partner while only thinking of yourself. Perhaps a little from an unbiased point of view. That's kind of how I see it. But again, this is not like you have every right to feel how you feel and do what you want. And the fact that he's clear, you know, at this point, not willing to convert, like, maybe that's your answer. And you know, maybe there's some, maybe there's some Maybe you have a little bit of a what imposter syndrome going because you think if I have to compete with him, he's going to win.

[E]

That was also part of it. He's very charming and speaks very well.

[Nick]

So I mean, you know, you. But like, you know, I know I.

[E]

No, I know there was a part.

[Nick]

Of me, but that part of you that can acknowledge it is a part of you that needs to like that's an ego thing. That is a. For sure, you know. And so you just. Again, I'm just. I want you to make decisions being the most honest with yourself about why you're making these decisions. Because I, I don't care. And they're all. Everything you're describing is very normal and it makes a lot of sense. But I think what I'm trying to point out to you is there's a bit of contradiction coming from what you're saying and I don't think you're willing to really see that because I think you want to get this job and you want him to be totally happy about it and you want him to. Let me ask you this. Let's say you get, let's say you compete and get this job job. Then what? Like if you knew that you were.

[E]

Going to get this job ended up happening and I got it.

[Nick]

But. Well, that should tell you something too, you know, like a lot of your actions are. Are assuming an outcome that a even hasn't happened yet. And if, and if, if it doesn't happen the way then, then you kind of all this for nothing from both ends of you guys. Did he, I'm curious, did he ever ask? Because like it was a lot of him asking your permission, but you never really. You just the. You getting called a. We all feel entitled to various things, but it's giving you a sense of entitlement to this position that you don't think he is entitled to. And when we are, when we feel entitled to things, then we just lose objectivity.

[E]

Perhaps I did. I remember after my interview, my first interview in person, I called him after and I was like, I was also sort of flip flopping, like it wasn't hard fast laughing like it wasn't only like, I don't feel like you should go for it or I, I feel weird about you going for it. Like I remember I called him right after the interview and I said look, I actually feel like you could be really great for this role. Like ba. Like after talking to the team, I actually called him and I was like, I don't Want to stand in your way. Like, I. After talking to them, I actually think.

[Nick]

That you do that.

[E]

Continue. I think, like. Like it was. It's obviously a very complex situation. I was going back and forth about it just like he was. So I think just after talking to them and knowing what. Where he excels and where I excel, like, there were a lot of instances in that interview where I was like, he would actually be able to do this really well.

[Nick]

That's why. I'm sorry, why. Why can't you. Acknowledging it's a complex situation, knowing that, like, we could sit there and go back and forth and like you and your ex did, kind of just break it down and analyze it and go back and forth and yada, yada. Why can't you just acknowledge this is a complex situation and there's a million different ways to look at it, and no one really is right or wrong, so therefore, let the mess man win, because, like, that's at least the only fair way. You know what?

[E]

I guess my version of doing that was very calmly and honestly communicating to him how it made me feel like.

[Nick]

That you wanted your feelings to help you get your way.

[E]

I was like, this is very complex. I don't know how to navigate this. I don't know what the right answer is. What I know about this situation is.

[Nick]

That you want the job.

[E]

It would hurt me, and I feel weird about it. But. But ultimately you can go for it if you would like to.

[Nick]

I know what you said.

[E]

Like, that's. I know, but that's sort of. That was my version of. Of what you're saying to address that. It's a complex situation.

[Nick]

Like, to. Your version of this is a complex situation, so why can't I get my way? That's what. That's what you're saying.

[E]

I don't see it that way.

[Nick]

That doesn't make it not true.

[E]

Fair. Like, that's probably how he took it.

[Nick]

Yes, but how do you. I mean, listen, you're just like, he cares about your feelings. You are emphasizing your feelings, and you're saying all these. These logical, reasonable things. And then what's the point of giving someone flowers if you're gonna piss all over the flowers? You know, like, what's the point of saying all these like, listen, you're right for this job, and if you want it, I support you, and it's totally fine, but it's gonna destroy me as a human being, and I'm gonna feel.

[E]

Like it's gonna destroy me.

[Nick]

Probably how he heard it. It's really gonna, you know.

[E]

Well, that's not my fault. No, but, like, very clearly that it would make me feel.

[Nick]

Listen, if you're. I'm sorry. Any person who says, this is how you made me feel wants that other person to acknowledge every bit of those feelings that you're feeling. So, yeah, you do want it to kind of destroy him, you know? You know what I'm saying? You want him to recognize your feelings. And you kept invoking your feelings, and you're like, I feel this way, it's going to make me feel this way. It's going to. You're going to be the person who's going to make me feel this way. And I. You know, and he was. And so it's just like, it didn't really matter, I suppose.

[E]

Just. Yeah, I guess my. To me, I was doing the right thing by communicating that. But I. Now I understand what you're saying. But, yeah, I guess at the time I was like, I am a communicative girlfriend. I'm going to tell him how that would make me feel. Like, that's. That was my. It wasn't trying. It wasn't malicious. It was literally me being like. Like, I talk about communication. It's important for me to tell my partner how I feel, and I'm going to tell him how I feel. I also, like, as I said, it was back and forth for a few days. Like, at the beginning, he was like, you know, I'm not going to go for it. I want to hit two years at my job. I don't think.

[Nick]

Did he ever ask you not to go for it for his feelings?

[E]

No, but that was never in question because I had already started interviewing before he did.

[Nick]

He asked you to buy. Listen, like, people come up with crazy shit. Like, it's not that crazy that he couldn't have come in there even a month later and said, I'm just better for, like, listen, I got more experience. I'm just like, he never asked me.

[E]

To do that because I was already in the process. Like, he wouldn't ask me.

[Nick]

But the point I'm just trying to make is like, sometimes the answer is to try to take. Remove your feelings. You can't ask him to remove his feelings and expect him to acknowledge yours.

[E]

Yeah, that's. That's fair.

[Nick]

And you didn't even really ask him or give a. About how he felt about the fact that you were gonna compete with him at this job. You just felt entitled because you got called first. And from a relationship standpoint, you definitely, like, I. I feel his frustration.

[E]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, because from a relationship standpoint, it's very hard. Hard to try to get on the same page with someone who feels entitled to something that they feel like you're not to. Because immediately they just have the upper hand. It's like, no matter what, kind of like you did, there's a but that says, but I'm entitled to it.

[E]

And that's how I felt. Like I can't help. Yeah, but feel that way.

[Nick]

Like you can't.

[E]

And I was already.

[Nick]

No, you can't.

[E]

Like, I was already interviewing.

[Nick]

I guess I. I would agree that you can't help, but you feel that way. But emotional maturity is being able to process how you feel about something. You know, when we were sick, when you were 16, you reacted to things differently than you react now. And the difference is you've grown up and gone. I don't know, maybe therapy or not therapy or just like, you understood yourself a little bit, learned from past mistakes. We definitely can't help how we feel. We can't help how we deal with those feelings. You are leading and justifying your actions by just invoking your feelings whenever it serves you the best. You can control that.

[E]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You. You. Yeah. That you can help. And every time I say something to you that says, well, you know, blah, blah, blah, and again, unbiased opinion. You called me, you're like, well, I. I don't feel that way. Is your response to me. Okay. You don't. Great. Like, no.

[E]

Like, conversation's over.

[Nick]

So.

[E]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, and. And a relationship, you're both going to come in with different feelings. And. And I could just know that, you know, the more entitled to your feelings than you are, the. Then you're already at a. The relationship that. The connecting this between the two you is already. It's tough. It's tough when one person feels more entitled to their feelings than the other, regardless of they got called first or not.

[E]

Yeah. I don't think I felt more entitled to my feelings. I just felt more entitled to their job.

[Nick]

But you're. I don't think. I think you should listen to this episode back when it comes out.

[Francesca]

Oh, no.

[E]

Anyhow.

[Nick]

But, you know, it's just. Listen, I. But back to. Back to converting. Yes.

[E]

So this is all happening at the same time, Essentially. Yeah. After work one day, we were on the phone. He called me to talk about the job more. I said, it sounds like you're gonna go for it. I have really nothing else to say about it. You know, my stance. Go for it. Let's Change the subject now. And then he told me on that phone call, he was like, also, I called my dad today. We had a really nice, good chat about me converting. And, like, he really came around. And I told my dad that, like, I would rather do this and be with you than wonder what if for the rest of my life. And I was like, that's great. Like, I'm. I'm glad that that went really well. I don't. I can't quite remember. It was, like, two months ago now. I can't quite remember how the conversation spiraled, but he started to bring up all of these different things that I had done in the past that he feels taken advantage of. He said, how am I supposed to convert if you won't let me go for this job? How. How am I supposed to think that you will ever be able to make a sacrifice for me? And I'm like, these are all. All fair points, but some of the examples that he gave me were just, like, so out of left field.

[Nick]

I'm sure they were, but, you know, I think you have to. Right. Bottled stuff up, definitely.

[E]

And that was kind of an ongoing issue.

[Nick]

When was the last time you spoke to this guy? When was the last time you spoke to him?

[E]

That day?

[Nick]

Two months ago.

[E]

Other than me texting him, I returned his stuff, like, a couple weeks ago, essentially. I'll give you a very fast how the relationship ended after that. Like, he basically had all these realizations, and during this fight about the relationship, then we had a conversation where I basically begged him not to end it with me. And I was like, I will change. I will change. I will do anything. Yes. I was like, go for the job, please. Like, this is when I was like, fight or flight? I was like, I have to do everything to save this. He was totally shut down. And then I had to go to work. He said, can you come over later? Like, I want to get some things off my chest. I don't want to make a rash decision about the relationship. I love you. And I just feel like there are things that I've been holding on to that I need to talk to you about. And I was like, sounds good. I went over that night, and he had my stuff in a pile, and he was like, I don't want to convert. And that was basically. Was very.

[Nick]

It was very like, I don't usually feel this way, but I. I'm sad for this story because most of the time. Most of the time I'm. And this is just. Could easily be the case for you Guys, I'm. I'm definitely like, listen, if you guys broke up, there's probably a reason. And as tough as it is, that maybe this isn't your guy. And that's. The religion part is a big issue. And it's a lot to ask. And. And that side. And I say this with love, you're very stubborn. And just whether it was like, I can see a world where the converting in this job, it was very easy for you to ask some pretty big asks from him. And I'm just wondering if you fully grasp that and If I'm hearing 100%.

[E]

I do.

[Nick]

Okay. But, like, I'm just.

[E]

I. I can.

[Nick]

I don't know if. I don't know if you do. I don't. I honestly don't know if you do, because the way you've. You kind of debated me so much about this job thing and the fact that you still, like, were like. But I'm right. And I got called first. The fact that you. You. You still can't really see that you have a blind spot, I feel like when it comes to that, and perhaps I think it's one thing to just, like, proclaim. I get it. I'm asking him a lot. And really, like, in the heat of the moment, moment, when you guys are at a point of disconnecting your relationship, acknowledge yourself. Hey, maybe I need to take one for the team here because I've really asked a lot of the team, and I'm wondering if maybe you're not as good at that as you think you might be. And I can't help but wonder if some of his frustrations and things that bottle up and when he was kind of throwing out things, you're like, what lot came from a place of, like, really feel like you were just, like, really good at asking a lot of things from him. And maybe he didn't have much to ask of you, but, like, it just seemed really easy for you to ask a lot from him. Where this guy was just like, she's just like, she. There's. It's never enough. And what else? Like. And she's asking me to convert, and I got to do this, and I gotta do that. And it's just like, jesus, I love her, but. And I'm just wondering if maybe you, you know, like. Like just some blind spots you could work on a little bit. Because it sounds like there's a lot of love here, and it sounds like this is a very compl. Like you said. It is very nuanced, you know. Yeah. The Job conversation is very nuanced. Converting is very nuanced. But I don't think you are as good as having nuanced conversations, especially ones that are very personal to you and that you have a lot of emotionally invested in the outcome. You know, like, most of us, like, it's hard to be nuanced when you give a. About the outcome. And I think, yeah, yeah, you're probably right.

[E]

You know, heat of the moment, it's hard to, like, take a step back, especially when this fight was just, like, it. I wanted it to be a conversation and it became like, a very heated fight. So it's. It's hard to take a step back and, like, objectively see it from a bird's eye view. I didn't expect it to be the end of the relationship.

[Nick]

So I hear you. But it says, like, bad timing, maybe good timing. I don't know, because, like, listen, if, you know, like, bad timing worked out, but, like, maybe, hopefully this is a pivot. Like, I hope this, one way or the other, you learn something from. I don't know what you. You know, there's something to learn here, you know?

[E]

No, and I. And I acknowledge to him, like, and.

[Nick]

I'm really curious if you ever listen to this episode and knew it was about him, what he would think if.

[E]

He listened to it.

[Nick]

Yeah, and he knew, you know, I know we give a fake name and things like that. And.

[E]

And I mean, he would definitely know. It's a very, very niche, I imagine.

[Nick]

But, like, if he did, I wonder how he would feel about what was being discussed.

[E]

And yeah, I. I did acknowledge to him too. Like, sort of as things were falling apart, I was like, I. I really am now able to sort of see your perspective. And I feel like there have been times that I have taken advantage of you in the sense that he did a lot for me. Like, I asked a lot, and he. He was a wonderful boyfriend.

[Nick]

It's like. And again, back to when we're talking, converting, right? Like, yeah, talking to you. It's like, you can say, I'm not even religious. I don't really need a lot from my boyfriend to convert, but I do have these, like, just a handful of, like, just things I want. Why? I don't know. I just fucking do. Because I feel this way. And you feel very justified to say that and very entitled to say that, even though you can acknowledge that they. You know what I'm saying? When I'm like, why can't you go drive by? You know, it's just like, you Just don't want to. And you want him to just meet those. Well, I just do demands. And I think, you know, you win a lot of the I just want to get my way arguments. And he concedes probably most of those. And I think he got tired of conceding and even the ones that felt trivial became a big deal because like, I give in to fucking everything.

[E]

Yeah, I think you're right about that. I think this fight kind of. Yeah. Opened up that can of worms. And I think what was, I will do this for her because I love her became, oh my God, how am I doing all of this? And she can't let me do this. Yeah, you're right about that. Time to change, I guess just with, yeah, the conversion thing, it's not something I'm like willing to budge on. So.

[Nick]

Yeah, I hear you on the converting, but like, as long as they're converting, why don't you make it as easy? My point is I think that's awesome that that's important to you, but as someone who's not religious, why can't you make it as easy as possible for whoever that person is? If you decide to love a man who's not Jewish and you want to marry this man and you have a great thing going, but you still want to have, like, why can't you make it as easy as possible for him and then from that point forward allow your relationship with this person and your connection with this person be what motivates them to continue to want to like become more connected to you and your family. And if you are connected to your faith and your community, that will inspire them to do so rather than put out a set of like benchmarks that like you just decided are important to you, even though like, you don't even really give a shit in your day to day life.

[E]

I don't necessarily think that was the case. Like I, I did want to make it as easy as possible and I was, I was even. Yeah, there were, we talked about a lot of things that I was willing to do if and when he did convert. He, he didn't really ask very many questions about what the process would be like, so I didn't want want to push that onto him. I didn't want to. I wanted him to also like, ask me about it and be curious. It's a really uncomfortable thing to bring up to a partner.

[Nick]

I get that.

[E]

Probably pretty closed off to it, right?

[Nick]

I guess it's one of those things where like, if you guys, let's say you, you know, this didn't happen. You got married and you fell in love and like, listen, people get divorced. There's a good chance he'd just be like, yeah, I, I married a woman, she was Jewish, I converted for her and we divorced and I'm not Jewish anymore. You know, like, I'm sure that story exists out there. You know, he's doing it for you. You know, he doesn't want.

[E]

That conversation also did happen. I was like, that conversation also did happen. And at one point, kind of as a joke, I was like, well, if you don't like it, like there is divorce down the line. It's a possibility.

[Nick]

I guess my point is I don't want to get the gap that you. And it's just, it's just there's a, there's this consistency you're not seeing. And I wonder if you'll hear it when you listen to this back. You, you, you, you hold on to specific things. It's just like, well, I, I wanted to make it as easy as possible. Oh yeah, it was the want him wanting to do it. You know, it's like, you know, I want you to want to do the dishes.

[E]

Really. No, it wasn't him wanting to do it. It was just, you know, it's, it's such a sensitive conversation that I.

[Nick]

But I guess what I'm saying, it's such a big. You recognize it's a big ask, right? You recognize it's easy.

[E]

Thousand percent.

[Nick]

Why don't we just start with a He's willing, you know, and if that. It's just like, let's.

[E]

I was really happy about that.

[Nick]

Right? And then. And just let him just, I guess like, let's again, when I mean, as easy as possible. But his, his motivations and his interests. Like, you clearly there's, you know, you had some standards in your mind, you had some ideas of what you wanted, you had some things that you thought he should do or not do. And then you were.

[E]

With regard to converting.

[Nick]

Yeah, just like you're just saying, well, he never really asked. And you know, like. And that's. Again, it's human. You can say, I understand how big of an ask it is, but I want a little bit more, you know, and as opposed to be like, hey, it's a huge fucking asshole. I'm. It is a big ask. And I'm just like, why can't you just like, I don't know, I baby step it with this guy. You know, that wasn't really his style.

[E]

To be like, like communication. Yeah, that was kind of how our big conversations were like that. It was very. Because I think he wasn't the best at like having very emotional conversations. It took a lot out of him. So when we did kind of have to sit and talk about something serious, it was like, we are scheduling this time to have this chat about this thing. It wasn't. It wasn't a super, like, casual thing that was just brought up. He told me he was like, we should talk about this. Let's do it on this day.

[Nick]

Like.

[E]

And that was the time that we were going to address it.

[Nick]

Have you let this guy go?

[E]

It's been really hard. Like, it's been pretty hard for me. But I would say in the last, like, few weeks and I.

[Nick]

Do you want to fight for this or are you ready to let it go and just accept that he's not your guy?

[E]

Again, like, I'm. I would. The only way I would be willing to get back together is if he would convert. Hurt.

[Nick]

I hear that, but I'm just like.

[E]

And I don't think that's on the table. So I'm not kind of like. I.

[Nick]

Well, I mean, I'm only basing on everything you've told me. It was on the table.

[E]

It was on the table. It was.

[Nick]

I.

[E]

And I think he said, I've actually had a gut feeling this whole time that I didn't want to.

[Nick]

That might be true. I don't know. It might be true.

[E]

Anyway, he wants to meet foreclosure in two weeks.

[Nick]

Why?

[E]

Great question. He.

[Francesca]

He.

[E]

He asked me for closure. And that's.

[Francesca]

This is.

[E]

That is the real reason I called. I messaged.

[Nick]

What do you want? What do you want? Because if it's closure, I don't think you should go if you're not fully done with this guy. And I guess again, this is a very, very sensitive, obviously very nuanced conversation. I guess what I'm trying to articulate, and I'm having a hard time getting through to you is I recognize you're non negotiable. It's an important non negotiable. I'm glad that you are taking this non negotiable serious now rather than just hoping for the best later. But based on what I think you and I have discovered about your relationship with this man and how maybe some of your blind spots have caused him to feel a certain way, coupled with the fact of what you are asking him to do, I really think there's some like. Or you could just, you know, you could just fuck it and just Find a great Jewish man. But I, I, I really think you have this blind, like, I don't care if he's Jewish or not. If you are really good at making your feelings more entitled than your partners and, and really getting good at asking him to concede at a lot of like, 50, 50 conversations, your partner is going to end up resenting you, period. And if you don't work on that blind spot, it's going to be a problem for you in your next relationship and in this one. And if the reason why your boyfriend got to a place that was ultimately, I'm not going to convert for this woman. I don't think it's because of his willingness to convert. I think it's because he was like, she just, I, I, I don't, it's not 50, 50, 100%.

[E]

That's basically what he said. And I said, you're right.

[Nick]

Well, that's, that's your call. But like, this, this is, Men are, it doesn't matter if he's Jewish or not. Men are men. And, and they want, want, and they want to have partners, too. And, and I think, and he sounds like a guy who's willing to do a lot for his partner, and there's a lot of guys out there who are not. But just because the guys are willing to do a lot for their partner doesn't mean they, they need something back too.

[E]

I think. I, I hear you. And I definitely think it's something that I now have learned about myself. I think it also kind of just happened this way because he, he had a hard time communicating.

[Nick]

So maybe I don't know this guy. Yeah, I, I'm, I'm confident he is far from perfect, and he has his plenty of blind spots.

[E]

How the dynamics sort of, I guess, evolved, like, with this guy who, like, wasn't great at communicating and did a lot for me. So naturally, like, that's sort of just how the dynamic of the relationship evolved over time.

[Nick]

You guys ever do couples therapy?

[E]

We did not. We, we talked about it. Like, he would definitely be open to it.

[Nick]

It really, I mean, what you are describing as a, as a pretty good thing with two people, two people who aren't great communicators, perhaps. That's what I'm hearing.

[E]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But he definitely might not be your man. So my, my short answer to a very long conversation is, if you want closure, don't go. If you aren't ready to say goodbye, go.

[Francesca]

Okay.

[Nick]

All right. Because you don't need closure. You know, I know.

[E]

I don't really believe in closure.

[Nick]

Closure is you accepting that it's over and he'll. That's his journey too. But I wouldn't. Yeah, don't be. This is not the time to be right or stubborn.

[E]

Definitely not. No, if. If I do go, it's. It's not to, like, hammer down this point at all.

[Nick]

Please. No, I hope you don't.

[E]

Yes, I promise you. I. Well, it's more just to. It's more of a curiosity for me. Like, I just want to know what he has to say.

[Nick]

Well, what are you curious about?

[E]

For one, I just, like, miss him a lot. We were friends for a year before we started dating.

[Nick]

You miss him because that's his torture.

[E]

I know. I just. I. What am I curious about? I think it would be good just to hear about, you know, his.

[Nick]

How he justifies.

[E]

Kind of absorbed everything. Yeah. Justifies what he did. Not necessarily an apology. Yeah, I know. That's why I'm like, maybe I shouldn't go. But slightly toxic side of me is like, oh, I would like to see him. You know, I'm definitely not going in with my. With my armor up. I'm going in with my white flag waving.

[Nick]

Well, I wish you the best. Thanks for having this conversation with me and.

[E]

Yeah, thank you.

[Nick]

Just.

[E]

I'm excited to listen to it back. Maybe I'll learn something.

[Nick]

Just be aware of those blind spots, you know, it's just.

[E]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know.

[E]

Sorry it was so long.

[Nick]

It is hard to find. Find good people out there. And we can always improve our miscommunication, and we can always seek help when we're miscommunicating with our partners. And there are a lot of tough conversations that even the closest people have to have that have a difficult time getting through. And you guys tried to have two extraordinarily difficult conversations at the same time.

[E]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And there are other, like, smaller issues in your relationship. I don't know. It's just like. It's honestly sad story. Story.

[E]

It is a really sad story, but.

[Nick]

You know, it's not. You know, it's not over. It doesn't have to. I mean, it's up to you. It's like, it's up to you.

[E]

I mean, it's not really up to me. I could go in and be like, that's for you. And he'll be like, no.

[Nick]

Well, you're right. I. I would disagree. You're right. I mean, like, you have to be willing to be wrong and. And. And be. Feel like a fool and not get your way and be truly vulnerable. Like, yeah, you would have to be all those things. I don't know if you're capable, but yeah, you would have to go in with truly a white flag, humbled and just focused on what you have reflected about the role you played in this relationship and anything at all that you would might want to work on or change or improve. And that's something that you want him to know. Because as someone you've been in a long relationship and have still have a past or not, if there's nothing that you could bring to that conversation about things that you would have done differently that you, that you think it's important for him to know about, then yeah, it's probably a waste of your time to go. Okay, all right, good luck. I would love to. I'd love an update one way or the other. If you're willing. I'd be passive.

[E]

I will. All right, Sounds good.

[Nick]

Take care.

[E]

I appreciate the tough love.

[Nick]

Nice to meet you. It was. It was.

[E]

Yeah, you too.

[Nick]

Fascinating conversation.

[E]

Good story. I'm glad you enjoyed it. See ya.

[Nick]

Bye. Bye. The Val House is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing a budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try that progressive.com progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates prices and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states with T Mobile. No trend spotter has to deal with trends body service because T mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network. Switch now keep your phone and T mobile will pay it off up to 800 per line via prepaid code card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com Keep and switch up to four lines of your virtual prepaid card. Last 15 days qualifying unlock device, credit service port in 90 plus days device and eligible carrier and timely redemption. Required card is no cash access and expires in six months. Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, out cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn Ads, go to Libsyn ads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.