E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Viall Files - Episode E923 "Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated"

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Introduction

In Episode E923 of The Viall Files, host Nick Viall delves into a deeply personal and emotionally charged situation brought forth by a listener named Sarah. The episode, released on April 28, 2025, navigates the complexities of family secrets uncovered through modern technology, the emotional turmoil of discovering a hidden lineage, and the delicate balance of handling newfound family dynamics.

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Main Discussion: Sarah's Family Secret

Timestamp [03:27]

Sarah, a 29-year-old listener, reaches out to seek advice after her DNA testing unveils a startling family secret: her biological grandfather is not her father's father. This revelation came to light through a random contact on Facebook—a woman asserting she is Sarah's half-aunt. As Sarah explains, "We found out that my father's father... my grandpa isn't my real grandfather or his real father." This discovery shook her family, especially since her grandparents were only married for about a year when her father was born, eliminating suspicions of infidelity.

With her grandmother now deceased, Sarah and her sister grapple with limited avenues to uncover the full story. The biological grandfather, a 90-year-old residing in California, has expressed disinterest in reconnecting, stating, "those names mean nothing to me. I don't talk about Pennsylvania." This stance leaves Sarah contemplating whether to reach out to him herself, considering his age and potential health issues.

Timestamp [07:00]

Sarah shares, "A woman reached out, said, I'm her half niece," igniting a chain reaction of revelations about her grandfather's other children from previous relationships. This discovery not only questions her father's paternity but also introduces complexities involving half-siblings scattered across different states.

Timestamp [11:03]

The familial impact is profound. Sarah's father, one of three siblings, appears to be the only one unaware of his true paternity. Her mother is distressed by the grandfather's unwillingness to acknowledge this revelation, believing, "he deserves to know because he's like the true victim in this."

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Nick Viall's Guidance

Timestamp [14:37]

Nick empathizes with Sarah's dilemma, highlighting the grandfather's advanced age and the emotional repercussions of forcing such news upon him. He advises caution, stating, "Don't reach out to this old man who doesn't want to be bothered." Recognizing the potential cognitive decline in a 90-year-old, Nick suggests focusing on supporting Sarah's father and navigating the newfound family dynamics without pressuring the biological grandfather.

Timestamp [22:13]

Nick further elaborates on maintaining family harmony, emphasizing the importance of not disrupting the grandfather's peace. He recommends, "If you guys want to connect with your biological relatives, do so thoughtfully and without involving him directly." This approach aims to respect the grandfather's wishes while allowing Sarah and her family to explore their extended lineage responsibly.

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Conclusion

Sarah grapples with a whirlwind of emotions—curiosity, frustration, and a desire for closure. Nick's counsel provides a roadmap to navigate these tumultuous waters, advocating for respect, patience, and emotional well-being. He encourages Sarah to focus on the present, support her father, and cautiously explore familial connections without imposing undue stress on the reluctant grandfather.

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah [03:42]: "We found out that my father's father... my grandpa isn't my real grandfather or his real father."
• Sarah [07:00]: "A woman reached out, said, I'm her half niece."
• Nick [14:37]: "Don't reach out to this old man who doesn't want to be bothered."
• Nick [22:13]: "If you guys want to connect with your biological relatives, do so thoughtfully and without involving him directly."

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Takeaways

• Respecting Boundaries: It's crucial to honor the wishes of elderly family members who may not wish to revisit past traumas.
• Emotional Well-being: Focus on supporting immediate family members affected by the revelation.
• Thoughtful Exploration: If pursuing connections with newfound relatives, approach with sensitivity and without pressuring resistant parties.

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For listeners navigating similar familial revelations or complex relationship dynamics, Episode E923 offers insightful guidance on balancing curiosity with compassion, ensuring that the pursuit of truth doesn't compromise emotional stability.

Transcript

[Nick]

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[Nick]

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[Sarah]

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[Nick]

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[Sarah]

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[Nick]

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[Sarah]

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[Jack]

You're crazy.

[Nick]

How's it going?

[Unnamed Caller]

I'm doing well. How are you?

[Nick]

I'm good.

[Unnamed Caller]

My name is Sarah. I am 29 and how can I help Sarah? So my DNA testing revealed a 60 year old family secret and now what?

[Nick]

What is the secret?

[Unnamed Caller]

We found out that my father's father. So my grandfather isn't my real grandfather or his real father.

[Nick]

Okay, what is the problem? I guess like not that that's like I don't know, like was he adopted? Like you know, I mean old like is this. Has this created family drama?

[Unnamed Caller]

Drama? We thought it would. It actually didn't. My dad took the news a little bit better but really why it was such a big deal is that we never would have thought that he wasn't. My grandma and my grandpa were married only for like a year when my dad was born. So infidelity really wasn't a question. So we really didn't think that my dad wouldn't be my grandfather's child. So when this Came out. There's two other kids, too. So my dad is one of three siblings, and he might be the only sibling that doesn't truly belong to my grandfather. And we're just finding this out now. And my grandma's now passed away, so we can't really ask her, like, what happened and how it occurred.

[Nick]

Wow. Well, how can I help?

[Unnamed Caller]

So I guess my question for you, originally it was going to be, how do I tell my father? My sister and I went back and forth on how to tell him. If we should tell him. We did end up telling him, which is why I kind of delayed talking with you. But now my question is, is the individual that is my actual grandfather and my dad's dad is alive, and he pretty much has said, like, I don't want anything to do with the situation, and he won't speak to anybody. So I'm thinking, like, I have his address. Do I send him a letter and kind of just reach out and ask him some questions and see if he responds or.

[Nick]

But you did reach out already?

[Unnamed Caller]

No, we found his address. My uncle's pretty good at finding stuff, and he was able to find this man's address. He's 90, still living. He's actually in California, so on the other side of the country from me.

[Nick]

He's 90?

[Unnamed Caller]

Yes.

[Nick]

So did he reached out and was like, I'm good. I'm not that interested.

[Unnamed Caller]

So we actually didn't reach out to him, nor did he reach out to us. This actually all came about because a random woman from another state reached out to me on Facebook and said, hey, I think I'm your half aunt. And from that, she's been in contact with that man's son. So he actually had a whole family. Like, he got married, had two kids with another woman, and like, settled down in California back in the 60s, and then come to find out he has three other children that he had in my state in the east coast before he went over to California. It's a lot.

[Nick]

Okay. And so I'm still a little confused by how your, I guess, grandfather. Right. Yes. Your biological grandfather found out and then how you heard that he was uninterested in having any type of involvement in this story.

[Unnamed Caller]

I'm definitely happy to go into all of those details. It's a lot. But I just wanted to.

[Nick]

Give me the short. Give me the short version.

[Unnamed Caller]

Short version. A woman reached out, said, I'm her half niece.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Caller]

From there, she starts exposing some information to me that kind of made sense from when this individual, the guy.

[Nick]

So that's how you. Is that how you found out? Not through the DNA test.

[Unnamed Caller]

So I've been locked out of my testing app for about four or five years. It was my college email. I didn't have access to reset my password, so I actually haven't been into my account.

[Nick]

Gotcha.

[Unnamed Caller]

And then this woman just recently did a test and she found me and she was like, I don't know who this person is. She reached out to me. From there, it all kind of snowballed because my sister did a different DNA testing app, and she saw she hadn't been in her app for about three years either. Because once you get your results and you kind of see everything, you kind of don't go back and look. There really was no reason for us to. We didn't have any questions or anything. She saw that there was a half uncle and then somebody with a 28% match, which. The 28% match is the grandfather. So that's kind of how we put everything together and piece it together. And this woman talked with this guy's son that he had with his wife.

[Nick]

When you say this guy, like, you mean your biological grandfather?

[Unnamed Caller]

Yes. So my biological grandfather had two sons to his current wife, and the one son actually saw me on his DNA testing. And. And this woman that reached out to me, my half aunt, is who reached out to the son and said, hi, I think I'm your half sister. I believe you have other, you know, family through this. And I just wanted to see, like, what. What is going on? Can you talk to your dad? Meaning my. My biological grandfather. Can you talk to him and ask him, hey, does he know anything about these two families? Does he know about the other children he has? And the son of my biological grandfather reached out to him, and he was like, those names mean nothing to me. I don't talk about Pennsylvania. And that's it. Like, he wouldn't speak about it. He's being very shady.

[Nick]

So he has more than one. He has more than one quote, unquote, illegitimate child.

[Unnamed Caller]

So my. My half aunt who reached out to me, she's actually a twin. And then it would be my father. So he had three illegitimate children to married women in the 60s, picked up and moved to California and then had a family.

[Nick]

Okay. Wow.

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah, it was a lot. It all snowballed pretty quickly, too. I was. I was intrigued.

[Nick]

I imagine these DNA tests reveal this quite often.

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah, I. I was surprised that this may have never been a topic that you've covered, because I feel like I can't be the first person that found this out. But, uh, it was a little bit more of a surprise for our family given the circumstances, because we didn't think that my grandma was, you know, cheating on my grandpa back that far.

[Nick]

I think the difference between now and then is no one talked about shit back then. Yeah, you know, that's true, but I think a lot of. A lot of things went down. So you're trying to figure out what to do next? Basically, yes.

[Unnamed Caller]

So right now my dad's actually getting the DNA testing done for himself, so that way he can see it all kind of match up for his own. Because right now it's just based off of my sister and I's accounts.

[Nick]

So he's like, weirdly embraced this.

[Unnamed Caller]

Yes, because here's the other kicker. So he's one of three. He was the first of his siblings firstborn, and come high school age, infidelity was common between my grandpa and grandma, which is what led to their divorce. So it really, like, it took him by surprise. And he's obviously sad that his dad isn't his biological father. But he also said, like, this man raised me, he's my dad and he's. My dad's 63. So at this point in his. In his life, he's like, if I were your age, you know, 30, you know, young, I might reach out and like, try to mend things. But he said, at this point, with my mother passed, which my grandmother is passed away, no way of us really figuring out, like, what happened. So that's why he's been pretty chill about it. But definitely no interest in speaking to his biological father. But I, on the other hand, am kind of just curious.

[Nick]

Curious about what?

[Unnamed Caller]

He. Apparently he's hard of hearing, so it's not like I can try to call him or talk to him on the phone. I'm obviously not going to hop on a plane and fly across the country either. So I was just kind of curious to, you know, write a letter and just see if he would respond first and just see if he would even be willing to respond and then also just kind of ask him if he'd be willing to tell us what happened. He. According to his. His son, he said that he's a reformed Catholic, he's very religious. He is on the straight and narrow. He got out of the military back when all this happened with my grandma and the other woman. You know, he was sowing his oats in Pennsylvania after he got out of the military. So in his. In his mind, he just had a little bit of fun. And then he picked up and moved out west.

[Nick]

This is his version of events.

[Unnamed Caller]

Yes.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Unnamed Caller]

And that's what he's I guess, said growing up like, oh, I moved back to my hometown and then I picked up and moved to California. But I guess I would, I would like to kind of confront him and be like, you know, you consider yourself this religious straighten air person, but now these things are coming up and you know, I would just like to know, like, what was your relationship with my grandmother? You know, was it a long period of time? Could potentially anybody else know or in just in general see if it was thought respond? Because he's not being very responsive in general with this news.

[Nick]

Okay. Who else is as curious as you?

[Unnamed Caller]

I think my sister is. I think we're both kind of like mad because of how shady he's being with it. It's definitely not bugging my dad as much. My mother is a little bit just torn up because my dad's not considering not telling my grandpa. So my non biological grandfather, my dad doesn't know if he wants to tell his father that this came out.

[Nick]

He's still alive.

[Unnamed Caller]

He's. Yes. He's in his 80s, he's healthy. It's not like we would be worried.

[Nick]

Why is your, why is your mom upset about that?

[Unnamed Caller]

Because she thinks he deserves to know because he's like the true victim in this. If he didn't know that she had.

[Nick]

An affair and what, and what good is going to come of that?

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah, I mean that's kind of what we said. My mom thinks that he should know. I kind of go back and forth on it.

[Nick]

Why does your sister. But like when people say stuff like that, I just want to know the why. Right. Like the principle of it, like, is that it? Like, because the like. Who, who are we? Like at this point, I think we. I think it's important to think about the outcome of these decisions and the why we're doing these decisions. I don't think curiosity is a very good reason. And what I'm hearing is that there's a lot of people not really involved in this story directly are the most curious about this story. It is a fascinating story. And I just think sometimes a lot of people are close to a story but not really involved in the story. And sometimes when we're close to a story by proxy, because the people who are really involved are people we care about, whether friends, family, things like that. We have a way of convincing ourselves how important it is to us. But like sometimes I think deep down we just kind of like the drama.

[Unnamed Caller]

I would agree with that. I think that's a little bit of where I'm coming from is like, I kind of want to poke the bear a little bit with him just because he's being less than cooperative.

[Nick]

But yeah, he's 90 years old. I mean, yeah, if I'm being kind of, if I'm being honest, I'm kind of. What I'm hearing for you is I don't know if I should harass this 90 year old man or not.

[Unnamed Caller]

When you put it like that, I mean, yeah, that's kind of, that kind of sounds bad.

[Nick]

I mean, there's like a strong chance that this man doesn't remember. Forget about, let's assume that his, his cognitive abilities have not declined, you know, especially if he was any kind of playboy. I don't, I don't remember every date I've been on. I'm only 40. Do you remember?

[Unnamed Caller]

I guess I feel like it's a little different because he, they were married. Like they were both married women with like, that had houses. The one actually had other like it.

[Nick]

Was like 65 years ago.

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah, yeah. It's been, it's been that long.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, then there's a whole added part that like, maybe his cognitive abilities aren't where they used to be. And like, yeah, you want to track this old man down only to find you have no idea whether his version and how accurate his version is going to be.

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah, that's true. I mean, he. Again. And he could easily lie as well.

[Nick]

Because he's 90 years old.

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah, that's true. So it's really not worth it in the end. Especially if it's not my father that's.

[Nick]

Wanting to raise my father and then the grandfather, you know, you're the man who raised your father. I definitely don't think it's your mom's decision to decide who should know and what's right in this situation. Why crush this man's spirit? Why in his 80 years of life, why bring him news that can only bring him sadness? If your dad wants him to know, then that's your dad's business because there's that direct relationship there and he can decide if your dad doesn't feel compelled or want to tell them. I think everyone around your dad should definitely respect that because I don't know what the principle is here. Like, I don't, I don't know what the right thing to do is. There's no right thing. There's no clear answer. And like, I Don't think it's your mom's place to decide. He should know. I really don't.

[Unnamed Caller]

I agree. And she is leaving it up to my father. I think she just may be putting a little bit of undue pressure on him to maybe tell him just because.

[Nick]

Why? I mean, like, what. And again, what's the outcome that she is, you know, usually, you know, listen, again. Sometimes, you know, sometimes we have to push our loved ones to make difficult choices that in the short term, you know, might cause temporary pain or sadness, but there's hope in the long term that this is the right decision and we will work through this. You know, like, if again, like, maybe your friend is being unfaithful to their partner and you're just like, hey, you can't keep doing this, and you're, you know, he needs to know or she needs to know or whatever it is. And yeah, there's a lot of decisions here, but again, who's working on anything at this point? What. What is the resolution here? What, What. What is this going to bring anyone? I don't really. I'm not seeing any upside. And again, short. And I don't think anyone should be pressuring your dad into making decision that right now his instincts are telling him he shouldn't know. And I don't think your mom's in a place to decide what's best for your grandfather. And it honestly sounds like you guys are, like, kind of caught up in the drama of it all, in the story. And it's, you know, it's fascinating, but what does it change? It doesn't change the memories, the history. It doesn't change your relationship with your grandfather. It's just. It's information. And the. And the reality is, is before this, you know, 23andMe and answers you.com and all these DNA tests, it's like, you know, sometimes ignorance is bliss. I mean, I don't know. Information's only useful if there's something to do with that information.

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah, I'd say my grandma was alive. I feel like it would have gone a little bit differently, but with her being passed, I agree with you. I think that this was just information A, we weren't looking for, and B, we really didn't need. I guess it's kind of. I'm just the weird type of person to think about the fact that, you know, I definitely. I don't know what half my genetics are. So, like, anything medically that could potentially come up, like, I'm not saying that this matters. I just know, like, that's where kind of now that the dust is settled.

[Nick]

Well, as far as my head is, yeah. Well, listen, like, nothing's. Like, first of all, your, your grandfather's in his 80s, this other man's in his 90s. Like, first of all, I'm guessing they're not very online. You probably don't even have to wait if you want to connect with this aunt or these other people, if you and your sister want to discover these things with all the other family members involved. But I don't think you need to bother this old man who doesn't want to be bothered. I don't think you need to drop this bomb on your grandfather when your dad's instincts are that he doesn't need to know. But everyone else involved, if you guys want to meet up for coffee and write letters and Facebook each other and like, maybe just like, share information because. And then maybe connect with people who are biologically related to you. And if you want guys to develop relationships, by all means, like, I don't think you really need to impact these elderly people and, and kind of take them to task for something that happens 65 plus years ago when it's not really going to bring anyone any joy or resolution. And again, like, if your dad decides he wants to do something, that is your dad's prerogative. And everyone, you know, you can still be curious and you can still learn, you know, and it doesn't require you harassing old people.

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah, I appreciate that and I needed to hear that because I've been going back and forth. I really didn't make my mind up yet. But, yeah, I, I think that you're right and kind of just calling it what it is and not, not reaching out to, at least again, my biological grandfather. And yeah, with whatever my dad chooses with my grandpa, that's. That's completely up to him. I agree. And hopefully if I just talk to my mom a little bit, make sure she's not putting any pressure on him to tell him, because at this point, really, like you said, all it's going to do is harm. So I think it's best if we all kind of move forward because a week ago this, you know, was. Or a little over a week ago, this wasn't even a thing. Like, we were all just living and doing our thing. And yeah, we've gone back to that for the most part. It's not like anything has significantly changed. Just kind of checking in on my dad on the mental health side, just making sure, because, you know, when you hear news like that. It just takes a little bit to fully absorb, and he seems to be doing okay.

[Nick]

You guys should be absolutely checking in on dad and not pressuring him to say whatever you need, you know, whatever you want, we support you. That's all. Your dad should be hearing from your mom and you and your sister. And yeah, if you guys want to be curious, be curious with the people indirectly involved, not directly involved. You know, this man's son. You know, if you guys have access to him, maybe you can get more information from him. Maybe you can gently build a relationship with him so that maybe if. If your biological grandfather keeps on living, maybe he will be compelled or, you know, to pull maybe some information or soften his dad up for, you know, I think there's just tactful and better ways of doing this than convincing yourselves that you have the right to know and this man owes you the truth, and you're going to knock on his door and lecture him about his religion and call him a hypocrite because he's not willing to own up for his decisions when he was 20. I don't know if that's the move.

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. That's a good perspective. Because when you're not in it, yeah, that sounds pretty bad when you put it that way, knocking on his door and bugging him. So, yeah, I'll definitely cease from doing that and not kind of even put that in the back of my mind. And I don't think anybody else is either. Definitely will investigate and discover a little bit on the.

[Nick]

I think you guys can do a lot from the sidelines, and I think you can, like, you know, you can be curious, you can even have fun with. I don't know. But like in, you know. But, you know, also walk before you run. These might. These might be people you have no interest in bringing into your lives, related or not like they are.

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah. I mean, they were strangers until 10 days ago, so we didn't even know they existed.

[Nick]

So, you know, just be careful what you wish for. You know, I would just be very, you know, again, you can discover a lot from the sidelines. I'd just be. Take it slow and ask yourself why you're doing this and who. And who's. Who's it really helping, if anyone? And that's fine. If it's just like, you know, it's really not helping anyone. I just want to know because. And like, we just need to be more honest with ourselves by our motivations of why we do things. And sometimes for the story or for the plot or for the drama, it's fine. But just make sure that when you're doing that, your decisions aren't impacting other people negatively.

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that. All right, I will take that advice.

[Nick]

Okay, well, thanks for the call.

[Unnamed Caller]

Appreciate it. Nick, thank you so much.

[Nick]

All right, bye.

[Unnamed Caller]

Take care. Bye.

[Nick]

The show is sponsored by Better Help People. We've been talking about therapy on this show since it started, and that's because it is important and it helps you maintain a healthy lifestyle. I mean, listen, if your mental health isn't where it needs to be, then it's just as important, if not more important. Things like your physical health. And, you know, we invest so much in the things that we eat and our workout plans and things like that, but if we don't have the right frame of mind, boy, we're just not as good as we can be. And that's why getting it out and talking about it can be so beneficial. But we understand the obstacles of therapy. It's intimidating, it can be costly, and it can be inconvenient. But when it comes to better help, they help break down all of those barriers. You can be talking to a therapist within a matter of hours. And we know how intimate, intimidating it is to find a therapist. You don't want to ask your friends, you know, like, do you know a good therapist? Well, BetterHelp is working with over 30,000 therapists and they're working with new therapists every day. So all you have to do is go to betterhelp.com, answer a few questions about the type of issues you're having, things that are stressing you out, and they will pair you with a therapist that they think is right for you. But listen, maybe it's not a match at first. You know, sometimes you got to date around to find your perfect person. And therapy can be sometimes like that. And with better help, they make that process incredibly easy. If you happen to connect with a therapist that you just feel isn't for you, no problem. You can keep switching therapists at no cost with better help until you land on someone that you really think is benefiting you. Also, it's more affordable than in person therapy and incredibly convenient because all you need is a phone, tablet, computer, something to connect with. Point is, many of you have thought about therapy and have been putting it off for whatever reason. And if that is, you just take the plunge. Go to betterhelp.com, try it out. You won't regret it. I promise you that. Your well being is worth it visit betterhelp.com v I a l l today to get 10% off your first month. That's better. Help. H e l p.com v I a l well, IQ mix is a zero sugar drink mix from IQ Bar that hydrates, boosts your mood and promotes mental clarity. IQ Mix has three times the electrolytes of other sports drinks and is packed with electrolytes and nutrients shown to support sustained cognitive and physical performance. IQ Mix comes in seven refreshing flavors like passion fruit, pina colada, lemon lime, my favorite, peach mango pink lemonade, and raspberry lemonade. IQ Mix is free from gluten, sugar, soy and gmo. It's even certified vegan in kosher. And that's what I love so much about it. You know, I've been very much trying to stay away from sugar in 2025, but honestly, water is so boring and you need a little bit more of those nutrients and electrolytes and the things that IQ Mix offers without the sugar. Plus, it tastes great. With over 20,000 5 star reviews and counting, more people than ever are starting their days on the right foot with IQ Bars, Brain and body boosting bars, hydration mixes, and mushroom coffees. Everything IQ Bar makes, especially their bars, is really the ultimate busy person healthy snack. It tastes great, it's good for you. You can't go wrong with IQ Bar. And right now IQ Bar is offering our special podcast listeners 20 off all IQ Bar products plus get free shipping. To get your 20 off, just text files F I L E s to 64,000. That's text files to 64,000. One more time, that's F I L E s to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details. How's it going?

[Unnamed Caller]

Hey, my name's Jack. I am 37 years old and I wanted to ask your advice about being a new dad.

[Nick]

Okay. Well, congratulations, first and foremost.

[Unnamed Caller]

Thank you.

[Nick]

How long you been a dad for?

[Unnamed Caller]

Well, I'm not yet. My wife is pregnant.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Unnamed Caller]

And we're. It's still pretty early. We're just about 10 and a half weeks.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Unnamed Caller]

So, you know, I'm. It's going to be both of ours, first kid.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Unnamed Caller]

Excited about it and just kind of wondering what your advice would be as far as being, you know, really supportive to my wife during the middle and the end of pregnancy and then into being a new dad.

[Nick]

Yeah. What nerves do you have?

[Unnamed Caller]

I mean, I think just in general, it's really scary thinking about having the kid. All the things that could possibly go wrong. I'm a. I'm a firefighter, paramedic, so I see a lot of disasters and things like that that could go wrong. And we also, unfortunately, had a miscarriage a few months back. And I know, you know, you and Natalie also went through that. And my wife is extremely anxious, so every little thing she's worried about, and it's. It's hard for me to continue. I. I'm being as supportive as I can and trying to do as much as I can to help her, so.

[Nick]

Well, just one. Keep doing that, right? I mean, it's obviously, like, I've learned that, like, you know, and as I'm sure you are. Are noticing, you know, like, your experience is going to be very different than her experience. You know, I don't know what it was like for you when you found out your wife was pregnant the first time or. Or this time as well, you know, for me, it was like one of those things where, you know, sometimes you get news and it's, like, really exciting, and then, like. And then you're like, nothing really changes. You know, it's like. I mean, weirdly, this. The. The only good analogy I have is, like, comparing it to, like, when. When, like, you find out, like, oh, it's going to be like the Bachelor, right? You know, there's this big announcement, and everyone's really excited, and then. But you don't film for a while, so then, you know, you're like, all right, well, you kind of go back to your normal life and. And you have this really crazy news that you know is going to change your life, but that. That's not happening yet, you know, and as a father, right, there's not, you know, as a. As a mother, you know, you're. She feels her body changing. She feels all these things. She's already feeling connected to this baby. And I think as a father, that happens over time. Once river was born, the moment in which I found out Natalie was pregnant became more meaningful. In a weird way, it's like I went back in time in a way, and I think about the time in which I found out Natalie was pregnant with river has a stronger memory now that I've met River than when I first found out Natalie was pregnant, if that makes sense. Yeah, I'm more connected to, like, finding out or hearing River's first heartbeat type of thing, you know, because now I have this tangible child, you know, where, like, I felt like Natalie felt, like, more connected to river quicker, you know, I don't know how that's, like, for.

[Unnamed Caller]

You yeah, no, that makes sense. We actually have our ultrasound next week to hopefully hear the heartbeat for the first time. So we're very excited about that.

[Nick]

Exciting.

[Unnamed Caller]

She just has been going through the morning sickness and everything like that, and then all of a sudden, it's kind of starting to stop, which for me, I'm like, oh, this is a good thing. Like, take the winds. You're not having morning sickness. You're not. And she's like, oh, my gosh, is the baby okay? And every little thing is.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Caller]

So hard.

[Nick]

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, the. Yeah. It's like. Well, part of the. Is because when, you know, when Natalie got sick when she was pregnant with river, it sucks. And then anyone who, you know, your doctors or anyone who's had a kid before, it's like, oh, well, you know, it sucks that you're throwing up, but that's a good thing because it tells you you're h. Hormones are working, and. And so. And then when you feel less sick, the. Her, you know, the first thought is, oh, is there something wrong? You know, and all, you know, the fact that your. Your wife had a miscarriage again, all you can do is. Which. It's a fine line between. I have found a fine line between trying to be as optimistic as possible, you know, like, everything's going to be okay, or, you know, saying things like, like, let's. Let's just be positive and things like that, because you don't want to. You want to allow your wife to feel whatever she wants to feel and. And does feel right. And there's a fine line between trying to be supportive and. And letting her know it's going to be okay, versus allowing her to, you know, feel what she feels, if that makes sense. You know, I know there's not a perfect way to doing it. It's just, you know, just try to, you know, bring pot. You know, the. The. The thing. The best thing you can do right now is to bring as much positive energy you can without being obnoxious about it. Right? And so your wife is going to naturally worry about things, right? And hopefully a lot of her worries will just be that. Just worries about the possibilities of things going wrong, which are natural, and as much as you can is to not invite new worries into her and your brain. Right. You know, you're. It's your job to be positive, even if you're not constantly showing up and being like, hey, it's all gonna be okay. Maybe it's just your attitude is positive. Like, you. You know what? I'm saying, like, it's not that, you know, like, it's nice to have a, you know, to have your partner know of your worries, but I, I would think right now I wouldn't project any worries that you have towards your wife, you know, if that makes sense.

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah, totally.

[Nick]

So I'd start, I'd start there and just like, yeah, whatever you can do to make her life easier, you know, Like I, you know, something that I'm, I know Natalie and I are really proud of is that we worked really hard to have a very stress free and happy environment while, while Natalie was pregnant, you know, and so we really focused on trying to create a calm atmosphere, you know, and things like that around with, you know, Natalie when she was pregnant, you know, and, and I think just try to focus on that. Just keep, you know, whatever you can do to bring the spirits up to, to bring positive energy around your wife, I think will pay dividends throughout the pregnancy and just kind of be, you know, supportive and then, you know, you know, Natalie and I, we didn't do any like, classes or things like that. I just really was following her lead. She, you know, she read a lot of books and she talked to a lot of people and I, you know, I guess I just try to be supportive and it seems like you're doing that and then once, you know, once your child's born.

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah. What are the things that I should like, absolutely be doing, like to help her out, you know, once?

[Nick]

Well, I mean, you know, your jobs aside. Right. Like, I, early on I tried to be like, I didn't. For me, it was our job to be parents. Right. And so Natalie breastfed early on. Obviously there's, there's things that are outside of my control, but like, I was there to help warm up the breast milk. You know, if she pumped. I was always cleaning the pumps, you know, I was, you know, helping change River. You know, when, if, if Natalie had to get up in the middle of the night, you know, to, to breastfeed River, I got up with her and, and burped river, you know, so it wasn't like Natalie felt alone while I'm sleeping. You know, I never wanted to, like, you know, now granted, at the same time we were very fortunate to, you know, Natalie's mom stayed with us the first six weeks and we're very lucky to have in laws that are easy to be around. You know, we both generally think that of each other's parents, so we're lucky that way. So we had a lot of help that, you know, I would try. I would say yes to help that you have, as long as you feel like that help is actually helping and not bringing drama and. And things like that. But if it, you know, say yes to the help that is available to you guys, as long as it is actually helpful.

[Unnamed Caller]

I was gonna say, I think luckily we both have. Have very supportive parents. And. And I think one thing is, I'm going to feel probably a little bit of guilt with my job because I'm gone so much that, you know, those days I'm gone, what. I can't really be doing stuff. And it's going to. He's going to be a single mom for two out of every six days. That's just the way it is with the. With my work schedule.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, and every family has to deal with that. Right. You know, you gotta. You gotta provide for your family. I think it just comes down to your challenge is going to be, is that, you know, when you aren't working, you'll be tired. Right. Right. Now, when you have your days off, that's the time for you to ideally recoup and relax and recharge as a new dad. You're going to have to change that mindset. Now, for me, I really enjoyed and embraced being a dad. And so it's not like I was loving waking up in the middle of the night when I had to, but my mindset was, I get to be a dad, I get to take care of my kid. I. I still get excited. Like, one of my favorite parts of every day is waking up and grabbing river out of the bed and changing her and starting her morning and letting Natalie sleep in a little bit. And I just love greeting my daughter, you know, and is there times where I'm tired or crabby? Sure. But, like, I really just. My mindset is I get to do this, you know, And I think, you know, parenting is hard. You're going to have moments where you're gonna kind of feel like you haven't really had a moment to yourself, you know, like you haven't really had the time to just like, check out or whatever. But for me, what. What stops me from feeling fatigued or, you know, feeling like this isn't fun or whatever is to have the mindset that this is all very fun. You know, I was actually talking to Natalie the other day because Natalie's. River's at the age now where it's really. It's really getting exciting. Right. So she's. She's a little over a year old. She's Walking. She's saying, hi, Dada, hi, Mama. She's starting to talk a little bit. She's figuring out words. You're seeing her personality, right? And it's. It's a lot of fun. And that, like, made me. I was thinking about the other day, and it kind of. I told Natalie, it kind of made me sad. And what made me sad was, is that now that I'm really seeing this personality of hers and the way she interacts with us in this moment today, you realize just how special and unique that is, right? That this high Dada, you know, thing she says eventually is going to be like, hi, dad. You know, she's going to learn how to talk, you know, so these cute little quirks that she has as a baby will evolve as she matures and grows, right? And it made me think about all these mornings I've had with my daughter when she wasn't talking, you know, these little subtle things that your child is going to do. Every day is going to be different. And I really encourage you to try to, you know, people talk about being present and things like that. And, you know, I'm on my phone as much as the next guy, and Natalie and I do a good job of, like, challenging each other to, like, be present, stay off our phones. And, you know, it's. We all have distractions in our life, but I would really just embrace that, right? Just embrace all the moments, whether it's, you know, a poopy diaper or whatever, your baby's crying, whatever. It's all just great. It's all just cool stuff, right? Because you get to. It's like the surreal feeling when you have your kid, too, because, like, you know, it's yours. You know, your. Your wife had this baby, and then when the baby comes, you're like, holy. How did this. That. How did this happen? It's so fucking crazy. It's like this crazy thing. But, you know, you already seem to, you know, the fact that you are excited that you're a dad and you're calling to. To ask how you can, you know, help. You're. You're. You're already a step in the right direction. So I would just lean into that and just really. Just be involved because it really, like, it really. You don't get those. I mean, it sounds as cliche as it is. And everyone, you know, as soon as you have your child, everyone's going to be like, it goes by fast. It goes by fast. And it really does. Like, I'm never going to have that moment. Back with my daughter when she was six months old, right? And she was like, a different child than she is today, you know, and maybe, hopefully we'll have more children, but, like, it's a really special time. Like, like, literally every day is, like, there. You know, she is such a sponge right now of learning and growing that, like, I would just be as present as possible and, like, yeah, just be available to help, you know, and then, like, check in with each other, you know? Like, I think that's something Nellie and I always could work on and do a better job. I think every couple can. I think sometimes it's just as couples. It's very easy to kind of go through the motions day to day, but just kind of ask, how you doing? You know, how you feeling? Anything I can do to help? Sometimes it's just checking in emotionally with your partner and just saying, you know, like that. Just checking in with your wife on her. Her feelings about things and how she's doing emotionally, I think is always helpful, asking anything I can do to help. Certainly trying to anticipate ways that you can help her, you know, Like, I definitely, more than anything early on, is to try to have her not to ask for things, you know, to just be part, like, get to know her routine. Like, you're as present as I am as a father, like, as a mother. There's just things that now, like, it's the details that Natalie, like, pays better attention to than I do. Like, she's. She. Again, she's following all the other mom influencers. She's learning these little things and these little tips and tricks that, like, I just, you know, I don't know. I just. I don't instinctually go to. To learn that stuff. But pay attention to what your wife learns, right? Show an interest in what she is learning and. And try to learn with her, right? So then. Then you can anticipate what your child is going to need. Don't play into the stereotypes of, like, I'm the dad and you're the mom, and these are mom jobs and these are dad jobs. Like, I just never really, you know, I. To me, it was like, I. I could take. I. By the time, other than, like, you know, well, Nelly was pumping. But, like, from the moment my child, river was born, like, I felt like I could take care of my child on my own. Like, I didn't. You know what I'm saying? It wasn't like, I wasn't some helpless dad if Natalie wasn't around, you know, I knew how to heat the breast Milk. I knew how to, like, you know, to. To feed River. I knew how to change her. I knew how to, you know, I. I was okay, and I took great pride in being like. Yeah, you know, did now, you know, if Nelly, a couple months after, you know, she had river, if. If I wanted her to be able to get out of the house of. If her and a friend wanted to get a cup of coffee or something, I wanted to give her a break when she could take a break. You know, usually she didn't want to take a break. She just wanted to be by her baby. But, like, I just. I wanted to make it easy for her to do that. And so, like, you mentioned, like, two days out of the week, she's going to be a single mom. Well, when she's. When you're there, you know, like, just all those things of just, you know, making life easier on her and, like, and just sharing in the joy of parenting together. And I think that's the thing that Natalie and I really enjoy doing it is like, we just love doing it together. We really are a team, you know, and so, yeah, there'll be moments where you can't help, but there's going to be plenty of moments when you can. Right. And just no one, really. There's no job. You know, you guys just both do it. You guys will, like, grow into your roles of, like, what you enjoy doing more than she might do or, like, just certain ways that you can help, like the days in which you're off. Maybe that's when you get up to, you know, wake up with your baby and let your wife sleep in a little bit, you know, just like little things, you know, and just as your child gets older, just, you know, enjoy it. But is it. Is any of this helpful?

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah, Absolutely not. It makes it. It even more exciting thinking about that now. And I think, you know, making sure to be present and appreciate all those times that I'll have with my. With my kid.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Caller]

And I think me and my wife do have a really good relationship, so we'll be able to. To check in with each other. And we do. We're a good team.

[Nick]

We.

[Unnamed Caller]

We enjoy being with each other, so.

[Nick]

That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, intrusive thoughts are definitely a real thing, man. And you're like, you said, as a. As a paramedic and a firefighter, you see a lot of things that people fortunately don't have to. And as someone who myself has had a relatively charmed life when it comes to avoiding real tragedy or stuff like that, you know, I can tell you, you still have intrusive thoughts. You know, you're like, you know, this. I. You know, it's scary because, like, once you have this child, you really just like, you, this. You, you. All you want to do is make sure it's protected. So you're thinking of all the ways that things can go wrong. Try your best not to do that, right? Like, pay attention, you know, and being active and, you know, a good parent. But like, you. You don't want to bring added stress into your house that you don't need to, because that's more than anything, you know, just right now, it is about creating a Zen environment for your wife. You know, and the only challenge you have is finding that balance between not dismissing your wife's feelings because you're, you know, if she's being angry, you know, she's feeling anxious and nervous about a fear that she has to just try to gently bring her out of that fear rather than dismissing her fear, if that makes sense.

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, acknowledging the fear. Hey, I have those thoughts too. But let's try to focus on the pot. We have. We have a lot of positive things here, and, you know, it's. And just create that Zen environment. I would be very good at setting boundaries when it comes to anyone or family or friends or otherwise, of just anyone who brings in negative energy or intense energy. Just. I'd be very quick to just be the. Right now, it's your job to protect the peace in your household, whatever that is, you know, and. And setting that boundary of anything or anyone who brings anything but peace into your home to make sure that you are keeping that out, because it's all right. Now it's about just creating a very peaceful environment for you and your wife to grow your child and. And have your wife enjoy the pregnancy. It's still very early. Like, your wife will go through all these phases in the pregnancy, but just you want to create a nice environment for her, make her feel relaxed. Especially now, anytime that she can, whatever she likes to do, she likes taking a bath or whatever just as much as she can relax and enjoy this time, the more she will appreciate it and you'll be in good shape.

[Unnamed Caller]

Awesome.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Caller]

Thank you so much. Thanks for talking to me. I want to say I'm a longtime listener, and I've gone through some pretty bad relationships in the past where I've wanted to call in and ask your advice, but I've always kind of known what you would say, and I listened to some other asking it Callers. I've had similar situations and it really led me to where I am today, which is a really great place.

[Nick]

So that's awesome to hear, man. I appreciate you. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. And it's, it's awesome to, to see a young father and I, I hope. Yeah, I mean, I really appreciate you saying that and it's, it's great to see you, you know, embark on this journey and you know, I'm wishing you and your wife nothing but the best and, and obviously the fears of a miscarriage are real, but you know, just stay positive. And you know, the good news is, is what I hear from doctors, your, your guys ability can to conceive sounds like pretty good. That's always the, the biggest hurdle when it comes to, you know, people who want to become parents. Very challenging for a lot of people to conceive. You guys don't seem to have that issue and just keep the faith and you guys will figure it out. But just protect your peace more than anything. Be involved with each other. Be supportive. Let each other know, like, you know, be, be each other's biggest cheerleader. Let, let your wife know that you're proud of her. You know, let her know how good of a. Even now she's a mom. Right. Your wife feels like a mom right now and let her know how good of a mom she is. You know, as she takes care of herself and your child. Just really support her, make her feel good, allow her to feel, allow her to, you know, and help her through her, her anxiety without dismissing her feelings.

[Unnamed Caller]

Absolutely. Yeah, we feel really blessed. We're both, we're the same age, we're both 37, and we were worried that it might be a little bit harder to get pregnant and. Yeah, we're very blessed that we're.

[Nick]

That's awesome situation right now, so. Well, congratulations. Wishing you guys nothing but the best and I hope for a very positive update in the future.

[Unnamed Caller]

Yeah, absolutely. Nick, I got one more question for you that's completely different topic than this.

[Nick]

Shoot.

[Unnamed Caller]

I'm a big football fan. Huge Philadelphia Eagle fan. I know you're a big Packer fan. Obviously we beat you a couple times.

[Nick]

You did.

[Unnamed Caller]

Sorry about that.

[Nick]

No, congratulations.

[Unnamed Caller]

Why, why do you guys hate the Tush Push so much? Trying to get a band, you know.

[Nick]

Because it does seem like a cheap play. Yeah, the Packer fans are really catching some heat right now. I'm kind of with most people where it's just like, you know, if you gotta, you gotta stop it, you know, before you Know, it kind of. I don't know. I see both sides. It does seem like it. Like it's. It seems like kind of a. A gimmicky play. I will say that. But, you know, they have to find ways to stop it, you know, so I'm not upset that it didn't seem like it got banned and I don't know, but it's. It is. It is irritating on 4th and 1 when you know that, like. Like, man, they're just gonna get. It's like an automatic first down. But you're right, though. Like, other team. Other teams can't do it as effectively as the ego. So it's not like if everyone can do it, they would, so to speak. Right.

[Unnamed Caller]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah. So, well, enjoy. Enjoy the super bowl win. You guys have a good thing going? I hope to. I hope to. I mean, I've. I've seen the packers win two Super Bowls in my lifetime, so I'm more fortunate than most, but it's been a while, so I'm. I need them. I need them to win one soon. But I'm glad you won, man. I do think that. Did you think. Did you think the playoff game with the packers, did you think that was really a fumble on the opening kickoff, or did you think they got lucky with that call? Because it sure seemed like he was down and got the ball back. Also seemed like an illegal hit.

[Unnamed Caller]

Unfortunately, I didn't get to see that game live. I was actually down in California for the Fire.

[Nick]

Oh.

[Unnamed Caller]

Helping out, doing the LA fires down there in Malibu. But I did see the replay of that pick, of that play, and it's hard. It's hard to say, but. Yeah, I mean, I think it probably could have gone.

[Nick]

Yeah. All right, man. Well, thanks for the call. Congratulations on being a father. Thank you for helping with the fires in Los Angeles, and thank you for your service. And thanks for listening, man, and best of luck going forward.

[Unnamed Caller]

Absolutely. Thank you so much.

[Nick]

All right, take care. Bye. Bye.

[Sarah]

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[Nick]

Well, you know I started this year by doing a fast and I gotta tell you it's really been helpful for me and my diet and well being and and honestly it's really been a great way to start the year and I feel like I've been feeling the benefits ever since. Well honestly when I did my fast I felt like I was on my own and then I after I did the fast I discovered Prolong and boy I wish I had it by my side when I was actually doing the fast. I feel like I would have got even more out of it. Prolong is a plant based nutrient program featuring soups, snacks and beverages designed to nourish the body while keeping it in fasting state, triggering cellular rejuvenation and renewal. That would have been really great to have and I'm really sad that I didn't have it initially, but it's been by my side ever since. And now they are upping their game with the new Next Gen five day program delivering the same science backed benefits in a cleaner, more convenient and more flavorful format. The new Next Gen builds on the original prolong with 100 organic soups and teas and a richer taste and ready to eat meals. Developed over decades at USC's Longevity Institute and backed by top U.S. medical centers, Prolon has been shown to support biological age reduction, metabolic health, skin appearance, fat loss and energy for a limited time. You can be the first in line to experience the new Next Gen at special savings. Prolong is offering the Vial Listeners 15% off sitewide plus a $40 bonus gift. When you subscribe to their 5 day program. Just visit prolonglife.com v I a l l that is P R O L O N L I F E.com v I a l l to claim your 15 discount and your bonus gift. Prolonglife.com v I a L l When it comes to me and Allie, we are definitely homebodies. Even on the weekend. We like chilling, relaxing outside, especially now that the weather is getting warmer. And when that is happening, we always love to crack open a Happy Thursday to unwind and enjoy the weekend.

[Sarah]

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[Nick]

That's my favorite part about this drink is the non carbonation because like sometimes I just don't need the burps, you.

[Sarah]

Know, and I don't need them either.

[Nick]

Not with Happy Thursday. I'm continuing to be happy even when.

[Sarah]

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[Jack]

Hi. It's going good. My name is Marie and I'm 33 years old and I'm wondering how I get unstuck from a relationship.

[Nick]

Okay, tell me about the relationship you feel stuck in.

[Jack]

Okay, sorry, I'm a little nervous.

[Nick]

Okay, take a breath.

[Jack]

Okay. So about a year ago I met a guy on a dating app. It went really well. I felt like I had worked on myself a lot for about six months, was ready to like finally fall in love and meet the right person. First date went great. We haven't talked about possible couples therapy on the first date.

[Nick]

Why?

[Jack]

Because, so I brought up. I'm very like trying to bring up deal breakers early, but felt very natural when I first saw him. And then I brought up how I plan on going to school and if that's a problem for him. He brought up how he got divorced. So I was asking how long ago. And then like later on I asked him more about his divorce and he said something about, oh, it just didn't work out because we, like, got married too young. And I said, well, did you ever try couples therapy? And he said, yes. And he's like, I love that you asked that, that question. Like, I would want that in a future partner and stuff like that. So I was like, oh, okay, green flags.

[Nick]

Cool.

[Jack]

So fast forward. We dated for 11 months, met his family. He is from England. So I flew to England, met his family. We even went to Paris for a weekend. He met my family, came to my brother's wedding, very, like, asking, like, where are you at? Where are your feelings at? Et cetera. He was always very reassuring. I felt very respected, considering, considered, loved in the relationship. But about five months in, I brought up, like, my feelings because he hadn't said I love you yet, and I hadn't said it either, but I was feeling those feelings. So I brought that up because we were just about to go to England to meet his family, and I just wanted to know where he was at. And he said that he just wants to be really sure when he says that. And I found out more about his divorce. He got kind of screwed over financially. She didn't want to go to therapy, stuff like that. So I was like, okay, that makes sense. And he's like. I said, so you just want me to be patient? He said, yes, just, you know, be patient. So when we go to England, he says, I feel closer to you. Like, everything is just going great. So much so that I was moving cities, and he was actually planning on moving to the same city. We started dating about an hour. Like, we were living about an hour apart. And then I moved about two hours away from him. And then he followed eventually because he was waiting on his house to sell. When he sold his house, I said, you know, why don't you just stay with me for a little bit? Because he was trying to buy another house. And so he said, oh, yeah, that's a great idea. We can, like, see how that goes. Looking back was not a great idea, but why not? Just because he hadn't said I love you yet. And I was just like, I don't. It was supposed to be temporary. And then when he did move in, everything went great. To where? When he was looking at house as he was considering me moving with him into his new house. And I don't know. So fast forward, we get. He goes to Thanksgiving with me with my family, goes to Christmas with me with my family. And then after the new year, he got distant and I brought up, hey, I feel a little disconnected. From you right now, something I've, like, learned from your show to ask. And he was like, yeah, I actually think we're a little too comfortable and, like, like, too complacent. And I'm like, okay, what does that mean exactly? I was just like, what do you mean? And he was like, I think, like. Because at that point, he was like, well, this was supposed to be temporary, and now we're talking about me staying here because he had put in an offer on a house and it didn't work out. So then he was going to stay with me till my lease was up, and then we were going to move together.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Jack]

And I said basically, like, okay. And he's like, well, this was supposed to be temporary, and you kind of pressured me into moving or, like, staying here. And I said, no. I just expressed how I felt and I was excited and I thought things were going well. And you expressed the same thing back, is what how I took that. He's like, oh, yeah, you're right. And I was like, okay. And so he was just getting, like, a little distance. And then I said, well, do you think you can get there, like, saying, like, I love you? Because this had become, like, a little bit of a topic. And then he had always said, like, absolutely, yes, Even before he put an offer on the house and asked him that. He said, absolutely, and now he said, I don't know. So then I was just like, okay, and started freaking out, and I don't know. So then we talked over the next, like, few weeks, and it led to us breaking up. And I told him, like, okay, well, what do you think love is like the next day? And then he couldn't really tell me, so I said, well, maybe. I said, are you still going to therapy? And he said, no. And I said, well, why did you stop? You know, you got divorced. And I found out a lot more about his divorce in this conversation and, like, things that he wasn't necessarily, like, upfront with me about. And he was like, omitting, what were.

[Nick]

Some things that you discovered?

[Jack]

So originally, when I asked him on the first date, how long ago. How long ago did he get divorced? He told me six months, which was not true. And then he did, like, backtrack on that date and said, like, oh, well, the paperwork's filed later, but it turned out it was about three months from her moving out of the house. House. And then us going on our first date. And the paperwork was filed, like, a few weeks before we went on our first date. So that's a big Difference than being, like, six months. And he said they had problems for years, but then I also found out that they were trying for a baby right before they got divorced, like, months before. And, like, she had a miscarriage and all of this. So I was just like. And I asked him on our first date, are you healed from all of that? And he said, yes. And I was like, well, obviously you were. I said, I feel like you have a mental block from saying I love you. Like, I don't know. So he said he was gonna go back to therapy, and I. I went to my therapist, and she recommended couples therapy. I brought that up to him, and he said, well, let me go to my therapist for a couple weeks. And I'm not saying no, but I just want to, like.

[Nick]

But at this point, you guys are technically broken up.

[Jack]

No, not yet. He was just saying, like, he. We talked about it, and he said I did a couple things that reminded him of his ex. So he just kind of, like, shut down.

[Nick]

Do you know what those things were?

[Jack]

Yeah, it was me asking him about. He wanted to go to this festival, and I had to work that day, and he was going with some friends. And I said, well, who are the. Who are the friends you're going with? Are there guys or girls? Because I was trying to get that date off, so I was just trying to, like, see if I could go. Yeah, well, he got really weird. And then he said, well, it's just the guys from the gym. And I was like, okay. And I was like, so no girls are going? Like, you don't want me to go? And he said, well, yeah, I just kind of want to go with the guys from the gym. And I said, oh, okay, no problem. Like, I was just trying to get the day off because I wanted to go, but so, like, things like that. I guess his ex was, like, an anxious avoidant where she would make him feel bad for, like, going out, but wouldn't want to spend time with him when he was home.

[Nick]

But, like, also, like. But. But it was just the guys you found. It wasn't like, you realize that some girl was coming along to this. No, no, it was just, like, his problem. He just didn't like that you asked the question.

[Jack]

Yeah, he just. He thought I was being, like, jealous. I don't know. It's just, like, little things.

[Nick]

I mean, that's a fair question. It's just like, yeah, if it's just going to be the guys or the girls, Like, I mean, even now, today, you know, if. Now he's going out with friends. I'm like, is it just going to be the girls or are the boyfriends coming? You know, because if it's. If the boyfriends are coming, then maybe I'll come. If this is the girls, I don't need. Go have fun with your friends.

[Jack]

I think he was projecting what was and, like, being triggered from his past.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Jack]

Because I was like, I agree. That's a fair question. And we talked about that, and he said, oh, I feel better. So then we try to work on it. But he was still living with me while he was trying to move out. So the problem was, like, I was asking, like, hey, like, I just need a little reassurance. Like, you can't say you love me. I just need to know you still want to be with me and work on this. And he just was getting more distant and weird. And then we had a date night. And at the end of the date night, I don't know, I just felt like things were off. So I was like, he's not a words of affirmation guy, and I'm very much like, I need to hear it. Especially, like, when you show it in all the other ways. But I need to know what you're thinking. Right. So I brought up. I was like, well, can you tell me some things you love about me? Like, in a joking, funny way, like, we're watching tv. And then he just, like, kind of got weird and was like, don't, you're being ridiculous. And I was like, why is that ridiculous? And he just, like, kind of laughed and was being silly but saying, like, that's ridiculous. And I said, no, it's not. And I said, I'm really struggling. Like, I just want to know, like, you care. And then he, instead of talking to me, he got up to the other side of the room and was, like, extremely distant. And then that was the night where I was like, okay, like, we're. We're having a real issue. So then I said, I need space. Like, clearly you need space. And then the week after, he went out of town for work for a week. So it gave us that space, and it just, like, felt, like very matter of fact and weird. And so when he came back, I basically told him, like, hey, like, either we go to couples therapy and, like, figure this out and, like, have a guideline on how to, like, take this slow, or we break up. Because I'm not going to sit here and wait around for you to figure out what's going on in your head. Like, if you're not keeping Me in the loop because he was basically asking for distance, but it was like indefinite distance, where I was like, I can't do that.

[Nick]

So technically, you kind of ended the relationship.

[Jack]

Yeah, technically, I ended it, but he. He. He chose. He said he doesn't have the capacity. Like, he said, I can't do it and didn't want to go to couples therapy. Said it was too early for couples therapy, which makes no sense. He said he wanted to do preventative couples therapy on our first date. I was like, yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

[Nick]

I mean. Yeah, it's not about it making sense. He just. He changed his mind, you know?

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Nick]

How long ago was this where you guys broke up?

[Jack]

We. So he moved out January 25th. So it was about two months ago. A little over two months ago.

[Nick]

You've been struggling ever since.

[Jack]

Well, so when we broke up, when he moved out two days later after we decided to break up, and at the end of it, I said, okay. From my understanding, I have offered to take things slow with you. I've been okay with you moving out. I've been okay. Hey, you know, like, I just wanted to go to couples therapy and see if we can, like, work on this, but you don't have the capacity for that, and I'm not going to wait around. So we're broken up. And I said it like that. Like, very matter of fact. And I was trying to be very matter of fact. That day. I hadn't cried. Like, I was just, like, helping him get his stuff out, and he just started bawling, crying, and then said that he hopes this will work out for us later and that we're too compatible for this to not work out because we're both very happy in the relationship. This came out of nowhere. It's just. He felt pressure, whatever. I don't know. Like, he doesn't even know. And so that's kind of how he left. It was just basically like, you know, I hope we can be together later. And I said, like, well, I have to respect myself, and I'm not gonna wait around for you. And then obviously, that messes with your head.

[Nick]

Have you heard from him much in the past two months?

[Jack]

Yeah. So about a week after, he took all our pictures down from Instagram. So then I was like, okay, that's a very different signal than what you're telling me on.

[Nick]

Yeah, but, like, it's not. I mean, that stuff is dangerous to read into. But.

[Jack]

Yeah, so then. But I called him over it because I was just. And then. So then I Just said, okay, I'm moving on. Because I was just like, what's the purpose of this? So I didn't, like, go crazy thinking about it. And then about a month later, I had a package sent to. I hadn't gotten in his mail for weeks, and then all of a sudden, I have a package for him that he sent to me on accident. Like, not sure if it was on accident or not. So then I was trying to do 30 days, no contact. So I didn't even tell him about the package. And I was like, maybe I'll just keep it. It's a pickleball paddle.

[Nick]

It was addressed to you.

[Jack]

No, it was addressed to him. So I was just like. Like, I'm gonna wait till 30 days, and then I'll probably reach out and tell him I have a battle. So then he reached out to me a few days later and was like, hey, I think I accidentally sent you my paddle. So then I said, okay, yeah, I have it. Like, I was gonna afford it to you, but I wasn't sure if it would go to your new apartment or what. He said, well, can I actually come pick it up? And I said, sure. So he came over to pick it up, and I was gonna leave it outside, but I was like, I just kind of want to see where his head's at. It's been a month. Month. So when I opened the door, I was very standoffish, but he was, like, very happy to see my dog, very happy to see me, asked me how I was, and I just was, like, good and, like, very standoffish. And then after that, he texted me and was like, that was really weird. I just want to let you know that I'm really working on myself and going to therapy, and this time is healing, and you mean a lot to me, so that didn't make me feel good. You don't need to respond to this. And then that was, like, a month ago, so I haven't heard from him since.

[Nick]

And you didn't respond to it?

[Jack]

No, I didn't respond. I'm trying to be strong. I don't know. It's just hard because it's like. It'd be different if it's like, he's not going therapy and he's not working on himself. And I don't honestly, like, think about it. I'm like, okay. But I don't know if he has a good therapist. I don't know if he's actually going anymore, but it'd be easier if I just know, like, he is who he is. And I can, like, move on, but it's just. I just feel like I'm going to start dating somebody else and he's going to pop back up. And I don't know, we just had such a great relationship and I just felt so loved and considered in that relationship. Even though he wouldn't say I love.

[Nick]

You, and I understand, like words of affirmation is your love language, but it's one of them. Yeah. Looking back, do you have any regrets on anything?

[Jack]

I don't want to say it's a regret because if I, like, for next time, like, I obviously won't let somebody move in with me if they can't say I love you. But I'm glad I let him because this brought all of this out. You know what I mean? So if he didn't move in with me early on, like, I think this would have just been more prolonged.

[Nick]

You mentioned that before you met him. You're really working on yourself. Was there a relationship that you got out of? Like, what, what, what caused you to be single for a while and work on yourself?

[Jack]

So the last few men I've dated, I feel like I keep attracting are like, people that tell me they're, they're ready for something, and then when we get into it, then they turn out to not be ready.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Jack]

And the last one was only like about a month, so it's like, easier when it, like, happens in the first few months. But I just got really. Got way too excited about them too early.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Jack]

And so I went to therapy over it because I was like, what am I missing? I was just being like, really hard on myself.

[Nick]

What did you learn?

[Jack]

That I need to give myself grace and then I can't know everything in the beginning.

[Nick]

Okay. Did you discover anything about maybe anything that you were doing at all to.

[Jack]

Like, in general, like to attract?

[Nick]

Well, I, I'm. I'm just wondering if it's possible that these dating situations you find yourself in with these men who you mentioned, like, claim to be ready and then you find out that they're not. Is it possible that when you get excited about these men, you know, for example, the, your most recent ex boyfriend, you mentioned the first date, you know, he mentioned couples therapy as a, you know, preventative, if maybe you guys would proceed with your relationship and you saw that as a green flag, and it's like you're at that point in your life where you've recognized that maybe you've needed to do some work and you needed to reflect on some of your choices. Right. And so right now, you're trying to be more cognizant of, like, red flags and green flags and things like that. Maybe in the past, you didn't even look for flags. You were just like, do I think they're attractive? Do they like me? Do I. You know, is there a spark there? I like them. Great. And it seemed like that maybe caused some, you know, some issues in your dating life. Now you're looking for some red and green flags, but now it's like, as soon as you find a couple green flags, you get. Then you give yourself permission to get super excited about these men.

[Jack]

I don't think I got super excited about this one until, like, five months.

[Nick]

Okay. All right.

[Jack]

Because I was very like, let's take it slow. Like, he had brought up things like, oh, maybe I'll take you to a wedding with me in England. And I said, well. And that was like, maybe two months in. And I said, well, let's not think that far ahead. Right.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Jack]

Like, let's just, like, focus on getting to know each other. So I feel like this relationship, like. Like, I talked to my therapist about it, and she said, like, I've done everything I could and I've mitigated all the risks, and I took a chance, and it just didn't work out.

[Nick]

And that just very frustrating to hear.

[Jack]

It's so frustrating, and. Sorry. It's just, like, going forward, it's like, I don't know. I still care so much about this person that it's, like, hard to think. Like, I just really thought he was my person. Like, I've never. Sorry, I just have to, like, I hate it when my voice sounds like that. I just, like, have never felt that way about anyone. Where to where I was, like, wow, this is my guy. Like, he's my equal. I've never, like, been treated like that great to where I really, like, you know, he inspired me. I felt like I inspired him. Like, I felt like everything was going great until he just shut down on me. And I don't know. So, like, my question is just, like, how do I, like, move forward and consider other people? But it's like, I know it's like time is involved, but it's just. It's really hard when I have, like, this picture of him, like, popping back up later. You know what I mean?

[Nick]

What do you mean by later?

[Jack]

Like, I feel like it's always, like. It's how it always goes. Like, as soon as you, like, get over somebody or, like. Like, write them off, they pop back Up. Right.

[Nick]

Sure. So, yeah, part of that. I don't know. Part of that is. Yeah. I don't know.

[Jack]

I don't know. Energy.

[Nick]

Yeah. Or. Or just bad luck or. Or just we manifest that narrative by forcing it. You know, it's like, yeah, yeah, people often circle back and things like that. But, for example, let's say you went out and dated and you met a guy you'd get excited about. About. Well, again, that. That would be great, because that's another, you know, shows that you can get excited about other people. Great. And. Yeah, so maybe he got wind. You know, if he caught wind of that, that could potentially spook him and cause him to reach out, period. And. And then he would say, I don't want that, though. Exactly. But what I'm saying is, is, like, here you are saying, oh, of course, you know, if I start dating, he might reach back out as if, like, just, like, the timing of the universe is unfair where, like, of course, as soon as I start, like, a new guy, he's finally ready to date. And what I'm saying is, in that scenario, he's not necessarily ready to date. He just heard that you met someone and knocked on your door out of a panic and then acted like he was ready to date. You know what I'm saying? Like, part of this story with this guy is him getting out of a divorce, having a hard time speaking openly and honestly about that. Like, I'm willing to, like, cut him some slack about, like, some of the stuff you found out, you know? Yeah. You never, like, hearing that someone wasn't totally transparent and honest, but, like, I don't know, like, you got to remember on your first date, it's like you're. You were a stranger type of thing, and he's not sure how much he should share. And then all of a sudden, like, you guys get serious. I don't know, like, saying. You know what I'm saying? Like, the trying to have kids and not. And then, like, three, you know, the timing, you know, six months versus a couple months. You know, I'm willing to kind of let that all go in terms of, like, be like, oh, I can't believe he lied to you about that. Like, I don't know, not completely letting him off the hook. But I can see a world where it's just, like. It's not as nefarious as it might feel in the moment type of thing.

[Jack]

It just feels like I'm, like. I felt like I was this distraction for him versus, like, he wasn't ready when I was very clear about my expectations early on. Like, I was, like, very ready to fall in love and find my person.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Jack]

And he clearly wasn't. Like he said when I. When he. After he talked to his therapist, the first time when we started having this issue was, I don't think I can fall in love with anybody right now. Like, I have a lot of processing to do still. And I'm like, wow, that would have been great to know 11 months ago.

[Nick]

It was. And I know this is a terrible. You're going to hate this answer, but. But, you know, I.

[Jack]

It is what it is.

[Nick]

Well, not that that. It's just like, you met a guy who was coming off a divorce, and whether it was three months, a month, or six months, that's still pretty raw, right? And in divorce, I don't know what it's like to get a divorce, but it can be pretty damaging for people and really fuck them up. And. And a lot of, you know, we all. When we experience trauma or disappointment or. Or pain that we have to heal from, sometimes we like to convince ourselves that we're healed before we are. I mean, part of healing, at least for me, has kind of been faking it till you make it. You know, Kind of had to convince myself I was okay before I was okay, you know, because I had to, like, get out there and just start, like, stop feeling sorry for myself, you know? So I guess what I'm saying is just like, you know, you. This is a unique call because you clearly are someone who really wants to make good, healthy choices when it comes to their love life. You've. You're doing the work, you know, you've mentioned, like, things you've learned from listening to the show. You're clearly trying to implement this and things like that, you know, but, like, maybe you pushed a little too hard, too fast in a way. I don't know. But I guess if you still care about this guy and it's like you haven't reached out to him because you're trying to be strong, as you said. And yes, he wasn't at a place. It seemed like he backtracked from things he told you early in your relationship. But then you kind of got to a point, and I kind of feel like I'm contradicting myself here. But every relationship is different where it's just like. Like, you know, a lot of times when I have these conversations with people, often women, you know, it's clearly a guy who's, you know, feeding lines, but at the end of the day, you know, I often say, like, he does. He doesn't care. You're not a priority. You know. You know, you've heard me say this and you've heard the calls, right? But what you're describing, and I'm only hearing your version, is a guy who really, like, has some road. Some roadblocks, you know, like, just as simple as you mentioning your love language or one of your love languages is words of affirmation. And. And that's. That's something that he struggles with where, you know. So that's just like a compatibility thing where, you know.

[Jack]

Yeah. I think he only struggles with it when it comes to saying I love you. My therapist said that he's thinking I like. From what I told her, she thinks that him saying I love you is like signing on the dotted line, maybe.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Which I brought up to him and he. And I said, I think you're making it too big of a deal than it is, like, to, like, you're. You're.

[Nick]

Well, I mean, like, in fairness to him, you're definitely making it a big deal.

[Jack]

Yeah, but it's.

[Nick]

I mean, it's a big deal to you.

[Jack]

It is a big deal and that.

[Nick]

And that is okay. But I'm just saying it either is a big deal to you or it's not a big deal to you. And if it's a big deal to you, then it has to be a big deal for him.

[Jack]

Yeah, but it brought up him, like, not being ready, you know what I.

[Nick]

Mean, to say I love you. You.

[Jack]

No, to, like, in general, like, it brought up. He said, like, this has just been too much too fast and yada yada. But a lot of it was propelled by him.

[Nick]

Yeah, I know. That's, I'm sure, very unfair. Yeah, I know.

[Jack]

And he was able to tell me how he felt in other circumstances. We did multiple trips. We went to San Diego for our birthdays. And he told me at the end of the trip, I asked him what was your favorite part? And he said, you know, like, this is going to sound cheesy, but just spending time with you has been great. Like, just being able to, like, do things and go out and have fun. So, like, he can tell me in those ways. He just can't say it for some reason, which is. Makes me crazy.

[Nick]

Do you think if you didn't bring up this I love you stuff, you guys would still be together?

[Jack]

No, because he got distant, I think.

[Nick]

But do you think he got distant because you were pushing him on the I love you stuff?

[Jack]

No, I Think, Because I didn't bring that up till after he got distant, because I hadn't really brought it up. Up, Like, I only brought it up, like, when we were making big decisions and was like, how are you feeling? I didn't say, like, hey, I need you to say this. Like, I was just, like, assessing, like. And I think he got distant after he put an offer in on a house and it didn't go that way. And I'm glad, like, the inspection was bad because it would have been terrible if I would have moved in with him, because I. I basically told him, like, hey, we're about to combine lives. Like, I just want to know where your feelings are at. Like, that we're stuck on the same page. Like, yeah, absolutely. So I was thinking he was going to say it soon, just, like, in a more romantic way, because he's a very thoughtful guy. He leaves me notes, like, my. I think what kind of made him, like, he went to Christmas with me and my dad made him very uncomfortable one of the days we were there.

[Nick]

How so?

[Jack]

So it's kind of like a Meet the Fockers kind of situation. So we were all standing around in the kitchen talking, and he was, like, leaning by the counter, and we're all, like, leaning on the counter, but he was leaning by this new stove my parents got. They were, like, super excited about this stove. They just bought it. They had a stove cover for it, which is, like, wood. It's like a cutting board. And he was leaning on it, I guess. And then my mom's like, oh, my God, the stove's on. When he went to the bathroom and the stove turned on and burned through this new cutting board, they were all excited about, like, left a mark on the bottom of it. And instead of my dad being like, oh, no big deal, my dad was like, oh, my God, we could have set the house on fire. And, like, went on and on and on about it the entire night and wouldn't let us change the subject and was like, so he had a few drinks and he can get a little obsessive. My dad can be a lot. I love him, but he can be a lot to be around. And just made the whole situation very awkward for everyone. And so. And then I made a terrible joke at the end of the night, trying to, like, lighten the tension with him, and he didn't take it well. But we, like, worked it out and talked about it and everything. But I think after that, like, about a week after that is when he got started to get, like, distant and, like, weird.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Jack]

And I brought that up, and he said, well, it didn't help, but he didn't say it was the reason.

[Nick]

That's probably an honest answer. Probably didn't help.

[Jack]

So it's just more coming back.

[Nick]

What do you want? What do you want to do? Like what? Listen, you called in being, you know, stuck, right? And it's funny because my light. If there's one thing I think I'm good at or one thing I think I probably do, the most on this show is helping people get unstuck. Right. People call in emotionally attached to a situation and talk to me. Someone who's not attacked match their situation at all. And I. I try to basically offer different perspectives because when it comes to disappointment, heartbreak, especially family drama, like, we just. We get committed to outcomes. We can't see our blind spots. We don't realize how much we're ruminating. And, you know, as someone who is a professional ruminator and a worrier and often was stuck in my own bullshit, that's one thing I got good at, is helping myself get unstuck. And as. And me doing the work on myself more than anything, if I could sum up what I've gotten good at is to not ruminate over things that I can't control. And I. I'm. I can. I can get myself unstuck faster than I usually could, you know, so for you, it's like right now that why I'm having, I think, probably a hard time helping you is because it's unclear what you want right now, because on one aspect, I think you're doing everything you can. Right. It's clear that you are trying to make good, healthy decisions. You are trying to accept the fact that while you care about this man, and there's a long list of things that you really like about this man, he couldn't give you what you needed emotionally, and then you found out some stuff that felt like some untruths or whatever, and he got distant, and he. And instead of leaning in, he leaned back. And you realize, I can't make you like me. I can't make you want me. I can't make you want to. To communicate your feelings with me. So I'm gonna leave. And he didn't chase you. He didn't fight for you. He just let you go, you know?

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And then cried about it and cried about it. So on one aspect, yeah, I commend you for. From walking away from a difficult situation. And if you really want to get unstuck, you know, the unstuck version of this is to stop second guessing yourself, stop replaying the, you know, the Stove Top with your dad and wondering if that played a role or, or ruminating over what he said in the past that was different than what he said, you know, as the relationship ended. Acknowledge that you, you know, while it's hurtful and upsetting, not that it's. Not that it's your fault at all. That like, I don't know, getting in a relationship with someone who just fresh out of a divorce, even if it's six months, is a bit risky, you know, because when we want to, you know, we, we want to believe that we're healed before, we're probably often healed, you know, and that, that doesn't make it your fault. Doesn't mean that you did anything wrong. It just means that like, it just wasn't an ideal situation.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Now there's exceptions to every rule. And you know, like we just said, like the unstuck version is to keep moving forward, stop ruminating, stop looking back, go out there and date, stop worrying if he's going to come back because you don't know if he is. And even if he does, you're not going to know if it's any more sincere than what he told you when you first started dating, when he was trying to convince himself he was healed from a divorce that he wasn't healed from, you know, you wouldn't be able to believe it anyways. And now, you know, he didn't fight for you when he, when you were available for. And so it'd be easy to assume that he's only inviting for you because you're not available, not because he's healed. Right. And so you don't have to worry about being conflicted because again, you know, especially if you met someone you like, then you, you know, right now you, you can't envision the person you like because you haven't met them. Right. And now you are worrying about meeting an imaginary person and then the person you're still kind of in love with showing back up in your life. And that's why you're conflicted, because it's versus someone you don't know, who doesn't even exist, versus someone you, you love. And right now that seems impossible. But like, you could go on a couple dates, you know, a month from now and, you know, and be very excited about this person and then he could show up and then immediately you could be like, you know, I just, you know, doesn't actually not that much sad over you anymore because you're more, you know, because you just can't predict the future. So that. That stuff you're worrying about right now, you need to just challenge yourself to not. You know, it's like you can't predict the future. You don't know how to read. You know, you're just reading into scenarios and that's just taking up a lot of your energy and that. That's what's making you stuck. Right. So you, you should, when you're ready to date, date and not worry about a guy showing back up because a. You don't know if he does. And then when he does again, it'll. It'll be very easy for you to like, say, you know, I'm not sure if that's what it's all about.

[Jack]

Yeah, that.

[Nick]

All that all being said. Listen, if you want to, I'm not telling you to do this. And there's definitely a price attached to this. If nothing else, that attach of like, making you feel like you cost yourself a month of healing or something like that. But, like, I mean, I guess my question is to you. Do you regret not responding to a last message? Do you ask yourself if you're playing too hard to get? I don't know, like, are those questions that.

[Jack]

No.

[Nick]

No. Okay.

[Unnamed Caller]

Not at all.

[Jack]

Because I think if I reached out to him, he would just confuse me more.

[Nick]

Okay, well, then you have your answer. You know, thank you.

[Jack]

I think I just need to hear that because it's like, I felt like, good about it for the first month, and then when two months hit, I just like, started questioning it and started going through the grieving process again to where, like, I'm like, just trying to keep trudging through and moving forward, but it's just like, been tough because you go back and forth in your mind.

[Nick]

You just got to try to control your thoughts a little bit better, you know, and you gotta. You gotta recognize when you're ruminating and you gotta recognize when you're just asking yourself unproductive questions. Questions, you know, but if you can say, you know, I don't. I know I'm making the right decision here, I really don't regret it, then that's your answer, you know, and that's honestly growth. There's probably a version, a younger version of you that would be less confident about that answer. And if you can answer that confidently, then. Then you have your answer. And, and it's probably the right answer because there's something that's telling you that, like, as much as you love him or care about him, and as great as he was, you know, all he is is, you know, frustration and a potential time waster. And while you're still really young, you know, you're in your early 30s, you don't have as much time to waste as you did 10 years ago. And if he really wants to be with you, he. He knows where to find you. And if he really wants to fight for you, he can fight for you.

[Jack]

I think one of the things that's stressing me out is I'm starting, like, a graduate program this year, and I know I'm not going to have any time for dating for, like, the next three years. So it was like. Like what? I mean, you never know, right? But I'm gonna be so busy, and I'm excited that this happened before I started the program because I don't have time for, like, the distraction. But it was just like. I don't know. He was, like, very supportive, and I was excited to, like, have that support throughout the program.

[Nick]

And now it's like, yeah, but that's what I'm saying.

[Jack]

For the next four years.

[Nick]

Yeah, but, like, you know, if. You know, if you're gonna be that busy, maybe you're not emotionally ready to be in a serious relationship or. Or have the time for it or. Or when you're in this program, maybe that'll help you slow down, you know, Because I know. You know, you know, I know your version is like, hey, listen, like, I did ask, and he wanted to take a trip, and I was like, I'm not sure, but, like, you. He still ultimately convinced you to move fast. In a way, when you start this graduate program, yeah, you're going to be busy, but I don't think you need to, like, be off the grid, you know, and when. If you meet a guy you can be, you can use that to your advantage of being someone who, like, has a lot going on, and he'll chase you for a while, and maybe you won't even have the time to move fast, even when it feels exciting and right, and even when it feels all green lighty. Because if you've learned nothing at all, you've learned that feelings change. And things that we say in the first six months of a relationship are just more responses to feeling good moments, not necessarily how we feel the first. It's like. Like when you have to wait till conflict happens. Like, you have to wait till your parents make your partner feel weird. And then the partner's like, well, if I marry this person, like, this is, oh, they're gonna be in my life, you know, or, you know, you have to wait till there's an awkward moment, you know, or they lose and there's disappointment. Like not getting a house where instead of pulling back, they lean in, you know, that's when you really know. And until that, you don't really know. And that. I know that sucks. And I know it feels unfair, but, like, if nothing else, that will help protect you going forward. And, like, you can be very slow with, you know, your feelings and. And feel, you know, People always ask me, what's the one thing you learned from going on the Bachelor? When I first got asked that question, I was kind of like, ah, that's a stupid question. I was in my 30s when I went. I didn't, like, drastically change as a person. A lot of, like, my growth that I experienced, it was in my 20s before I went on the Bachelor. And so I kind of resented that question. But then I realized, well, that's not true. I did learn something, and I learned that feeling in love doesn't necessarily mean you're in love because, like, being on that show is a manufacturing environment you can feel. It's. It's designed to elicit strong emotions, you know, and when two people meet, especially when people meet, you know, one coming out of divorce, the other person is someone who will. Maybe they didn't get divorced, but has had their own relationship disappointments, you know, so it's like you both meet and you're both, like, you're both commiserating over past frustrating experiences, and here you are talking about potentially going to couples therapy, and you both sound like enlightened, open people, and, like, that can be very exciting, and that can be. That can make you feel certain feelings. But, like, again, that's not necessarily love, you know?

[Jack]

Yeah, well, we didn't talk about, like, we didn't commiserate, I don't think.

[Nick]

I'm not saying you did. I'm just saying, like. All I'm saying is be open to the possibility that when you have strong feelings about someone and you care about them as a person and they treat you with love and they make you feel loved, while that is all nice and maybe you do love parts of them, but again, like, the love that, you know, when you say I love you, I'm guessing when we. Any of us say I love you, and when we fantasize about love, about getting married and having a family, we're talking about a love that is deeper than just, you know, what I'm Saying that, yeah, that wouldn't cause someone to be able to just leave the way he did. Right. Or. You know what I'm saying? So, like, while you felt love for him, you know, it just wasn't ready to be the type of love that you wanted. And I think maybe you accepting that and being a little bit more patient with that and recognizing that you can have strong feelings for someone, and it can be a lot of things, but it doesn't necessarily mean, like, a deep family love of, like, truly being one, because that does take time. You can fly across the world to meet their family. You can take trips together, but that doesn't necessarily bond two people. People together. Sometimes that just takes time. Sometimes you have to get through adversity together and things like that. And you guys never really got a chance to do that. So a lot of what you're sad about is the potential of the relationship. Even though you dated for almost a year, it was mostly based off of potential. You saw a ton of potential. All these notes he wrote you, all these nice things, all these green flags were very exciting for you. It made you more excited about his potential. You know what I'm saying? But it was still all potential. It never was actual things that you could really trust. It was. It was his potential.

[Jack]

Yeah. I feel like we did work through, like, few small things, but nothing like crazy.

[Nick]

Yeah. And I only say that just because you don't, like, you don't want to get, you know. You know, the problem with, you know, love and heartbreak and disappointment and trying and failing is like, you get kind of. You get burnt out or you feel like it's nothing's working and you want to quit. And, you know, it's just like. It feels unfair. And that's what I'm saying is like, telling your, you know, having the narrative of I thought I found him, I really thought he was my person. It was, and that didn't work out is like. Yeah, it's a sad story, you know, but it's also, you know, a different version of that is. Yeah, I mean, you know, I definitely got excited. It was a definite bummer. But, like, I got a little caught up in a lot of his great qualities. But I just, like, I. I really. I didn't listen to myself as well as I should. That, like, coming out of divorce was a lot for a guy who, like, had a hard time being completely transparent with all the struggles of his past marriage, you know what I'm saying? So, like, yeah, he should have been honest, but also part of that truth is that he probably just had a hard time being honest because he, he had a lot of fear of being accepted.

[Jack]

Well, he knew. He knew if he was honest about it, I would leave. Like, I would be like, okay, you know?

[Nick]

Yeah. So, you know, and again, that's what's.

[Jack]

So frustrating is I feel like guys.

[Nick]

Like, no, we all do. It's not just guys. We all. We all can, you know, so. But I don't know. I just.

[Jack]

I don't know.

[Nick]

But my point is, what you can learn from that is six months from a divorce, just assume they're not healed.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, and that doesn't mean you can't date these people, but it means you really need to take it slow. And again, hurt people are going to want to convince themselves they're healed before they are. They're going to want, you know, know that's a normal response. But the part that you seem to be the most hung up on and hurt by is the fact that you asked the questions. You wanted to take it slow. And he was the one who says, no, no, no, no, no, I'm fine. Let's travel. And that's the part that you're. You seem to be the most angry about and most hurt about. And I am. And I'm. And I say this is something that should help you, even if it irritates you right now, is that you still played a role in that. That. And he. It's not completely his fault. And like, And I'm not trying to blame your fault. I'm. I'm just saying you can't. You can. Like, these situations are most frustrating when it's like, yeah, that's. That really sucks. There's nothing to learn from that. That's just bad luck. Right. Those are the worst. Because there's nothing to do from it. And what I'm sensing from you is that is how you feel. But the reality is, is I think there is things you can learn from this. Not to beat yourself up and be like, I should have done this differently. I should have done that differently. It's just that it's not just the worst luck possible. It's just, you know, you. It cost you a few months that you would have otherwise not want to. You wouldn't have wanted to fall for a guy only to worry about missing him right now.

[Jack]

Yeah. I don't regret our relationship. It's just, you know, I've been. I've been getting out there. Like, I've been going to volleyball and run club.

[Nick]

And you got you got this on a few days, you have this journey, you have this new pro. You know, like you have, you already have a future planned out, right? And so I just gotta get through.

[Jack]

One more month and I move away and I'll be a little happy.

[Nick]

Well, don't waste this month again. I. My advice, my advice to you is to not sit there and try to get through this month. My advice to you is your life is about to change with this program for the next few years. And as sad as you are about this, you know, do not waste this month, month by just trying to get through it.

[Jack]

I'm not though. I'm going to the beach with my craft today.

[Nick]

There you go.

[Jack]

But I still, you know, I know. Not ready.

[Nick]

Well, your big challenge is try not to. Like, when you catch yourself ruminating, when you catch yourself second guessing, just know that like you are making the right decision as hard as it is. And you don't know what's going to happen in the future. But like, you know, for, for you to take this guy back, he's going to have to get some. Through real change and real healing. And that's going to maybe take some time, some real time. And so I don't know, maybe it is a blessing. Maybe, maybe he won't be healed. He'll be healed right around the time you got out of that program. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? So like, he'll just get to skip the whole thing. You have to believe, you have to believe that you made the right decision.

[Jack]

Yeah, that was the other thing that might have scared him too, is me going into the program because he supported his ex wife through the same experience. Exact program.

[Nick]

Sure. Oh, okay. Well, yeah, yeah. Also. Yeah, it's like, it's, it's when, when, listen, like, you jump into a relationship, you want to be a top priority for your relationship. And when that person. And again, I'm not trying to, like, I'm glad that you're doing this, but. Yeah. You know, when someone else has a big thing, a project or a job or a pro school, there is a fear that like this person is their priorities are going to change and I'm not going to be a top priority. And, and you know, yeah, that, that's a, that's a, that's a legitimate fear for people. But more importantly, you needed someone who was capable of not being triggered by them multiple times. Yeah, I know. You got to get over that. You got to get over the fact that you asked him and he gave You. An answer that ended up not being true. Like, you. You do have to get over that. That's the part that, like, you know, you have to recognize that just because you check in with a partner and they get in, then you initially get the answer you looked for for. Maybe this is something you're not listening to yourself of. What. What's causing you to ask these things? What's causing to ask these things is the. The feeling that maybe they aren't ready or there's a real, like, hesitation and like, you know what I'm saying. And like. And then. And then you're looking for permission to ignore your instincts by asking them. And then when you get the answer you want, you're like, oh, well, I asked. And then, like, you're. And then you can go back and be like, well, I asked them. And that way as a. Letting yourself off the hook by not letting. Listening to your gut.

[Jack]

Yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe.

[Nick]

I don't know, talking to you, you having asked him that. That sets you off more than anything. You're. You get riled up when I.

[Unnamed Caller]

Yes.

[Jack]

Because it's my anxiety. Because I, like, look for things because I'm trying to, like, make sure it's going to work before I invest feelings.

[Nick]

Well, you have to. I think I would listen to yourself more, and especially when it comes to asking people to be honest with themselves about their feelings. If you're. You're compelled to ask because you want to check in, just listen to that a little bit more. Especially when you're checking in for permission to move things forward, you are letting yourself off the hook and excusing yourself from listening to your instincts. Because you check in with these men because you have a sense that they're not ready. And then they tell you they are through their actions or their words, and then you move things forward and then that at some point they get spooked and you're like, but I asked you three fucking months ago, man. And like, you told me.

[Jack]

Exactly true. Because I saw in the beginning he didn't take down his photos from his Facebook with his ex. And that bothered me. And I talked about it, and he finally did, like, five months in. But he. He was like, oh, I just don't go on Facebook. That was his excuse.

[Nick]

See. But again, you knew. Like, you're. You. You noticed something. It felt off. You asked him about it. He gave you an answer. It's kind of a answer, but like, you would rather believe his answer.

[Jack]

But then he took them down. Like, he finally, like, yeah, but only.

[Nick]

Because he kind of forced him.

[Jack]

Well, because I asked. I just told him like, how I felt.

[Nick]

Sure, yeah, but you know what I'm saying, though, like, that's what. But you know, listen, you met a guy who got off at a divorce. You, you suspected he wasn't healed, right? Yeah, he gave. There were clear signs he wasn't healed. Instead of like, like accepting those signs and taking it slow, you told him how it made you feel, plus, like, checked in with him and since, you know, and that makes sense because you develop feelings. So then now he's. Now immediately he is trying to consider the feelings of this new girl he likes while still trying to consider his own feelings about moving on from this past trauma. And then that's. All of a sudden, things are cloudy. And now he doesn't know if he's doing it for you or himself or what. You know, it's just like he's trying to do right by you. Right. Or right by himself. And that's the part where you not listening to your instincts and you just saying, you know what? Yeah, I feel a certain way, but like, you know, more than anything, this is telling me this guy isn't healed. And I could ask him and I can, I can check in with him, but, like, he's just going to give me an answer that, you know, that he thinks I want to hear or that he thinks he wants to believe. Because if he's not healed, then he's probably not in a position to, like, give me the most healthiest and honest answer. So then you tell him how you felt, and then immediately, now his, his priorities have changed to making sure you're okay rather than he's okay.

[Jack]

That makes sense. That makes total sense. Since I, I think that's exactly what I needed to hear, honestly. So, not that I'll be in the exact same situation again, but if I was in a situation similar, would you just recommend, like, taking it really, really slow or like just being like, trusting your instincts and being like.

[Nick]

Both, Both. I mean, listen, like, I don't, you know, next time you, if you meet a guy who just got out of a relationship, let just assume that he's not healed.

[Jack]

Well, yeah, but I just mean in instincts in general. Like, because usually, like, if something comes up, I try to talk to somebody about it and see how they're feeling because I don't want to, like, read into something that I don't know, you know, because there's always something that comes up.

[Nick]

Yeah, you're right. It's a challenge. It's a fine line. But again, like a guy who's having a hard time removing photo visit his ex. Even if divorce or let's say it was a guy you, you know his, he's like, you meet, you meet a guy, he's not divorced, but he's like, yeah, it was a five year relationship and we broke up four months ago. It's like, yeah, he's probably fucked up about it, you know, that's five year visit of his life. It's five years of memories. It's five years, you know what? You know that's what I'm saying. So like, that's just like this man's learning a whole new life. Like, would you get over that in six months?

[Jack]

No. And I didn't know all the details until about, like, not even all the details.

[Nick]

I think, I think it's a, I think it's a combination. I think right now you're ignoring common sense because of when you get excited. So like, I think you got to take a step back. Whether it's checking in with your therapist or checking in with a friend that you, you know, isn't like the friend who wants you to buy the boat, who's just excited to like hear about your dating stories, you know, like whatever it is, but like, it's, you have common sense and you're just not listening to your common sense in moments where you're, you're, you're making excuses by like, well, I, I want to check in with them. And there's a difference between trusting your body and listening to common sense and being the person who overthinks and creates drama, you know, because, you know, like, you know what I'm saying? And it's a case by case basis. But I think you know the difference.

[Jack]

It is. I do want to say one little thing though.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Jack]

When he originally said six months, he also said, well, we've been having issues for years. And it made it seem like he had like slowly, like displaced himself over years. And I was like, well, I can relate to that because sometimes you're done with a relationship before it fully ends.

[Nick]

Sure.

[Jack]

You know what I mean? So it's just like I'm asking, what do you mean by that first date?

[Nick]

And that's okay, but you know, again, maybe, and that because it is a first date, but maybe on the third or fourth date you could revisit and you're like, well, what do you mean by like having problems for years? Because that could mean a million different things and you can have problems for years. And still wish it worked out. You know, you can have problems for years and still be heartbroken that, you know, when. When I first got engaged and found out she cheated on me, I just. Like, part of the heartbreak was I couldn't believe I got engaged and it didn't work out. I couldn't believe I bought a ring and I. It was sitting in my drawer. It was the embarrassment, was the shame. There's just a lot. Lot. There's a lot of feelings that go into heartbreak. It's not just losing someone. It's. It's the feeling of failure. It's the fear of what society is going to say about you. And these are all feelings he had to work through as a human being going through a divorce.

[Jack]

I just didn't want to feel like I was, like, splitting hairs and, like, asking for so many details, you know, I was, like, just trying to have fun and, like, get to know him.

[Nick]

No, I know. Like, I'm not saying you did anything wrong. It's just. I'm getting the sense that you were looking for permission to move faster than you. You knew you should. It felt really good. There were a ton of green flags, and you found ways to ignore the red flags by asking him if he was okay moving forward. And once you got the answer you wanted, it was like, oh, well, he said he's ready, so I'm good to. Let's. Let's go to. Let's go to England and meet your family, you know, Like. You know what I'm saying? Like, and, you know, you get what I'm saying, you know? So I think.

[Jack]

Yeah, I understand. So this call is really helpful. Really helpful.

[Nick]

All right, well, have fun on your. On your date at the beach.

[Jack]

Friend date.

[Nick]

But whatever, just enjoy. Just. Again, you're gonna. He's gonna come up in your mind. Just check yourself when you catch yourself going back and asking those. Those ruminating questions, and you're analyzing things you've already analyzed. And the best part of this call was you. Me saying, you know, I gave you a window to fight for this guy, and you were like, no, I made a good decision. And, like, you should really. That. That's the best.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Answer you.

[Jack]

I would fight for him if he.

[Nick]

Would fight for me, but he's not. And that's the thing. And I bet you've been a person who was willing to fight for. Fight for people who wouldn't fight for you in the past.

[Jack]

So.

[Nick]

So that's progress. And that's something. Thing. That's the thing. You should be most proud of. That's the thing, when these other questions come in your mind, you let it go because you have the answer. And all these other stuff, it'll play itself out.

[Jack]

Well, thank you. I appreciate it so much.

[Nick]

All right, take care. I would love an update how things are progressing in a few months.

[Jack]

Yeah, I'll give you another. All right, thank you.

[Nick]

All right, take care.

[Jack]

You too. Bye.

[Marie]

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[Nick]

Psst.

[Marie]

Here's a list of reasons to use Instacart. The game is on. The game just ended. The next game is on. Life busy. But with Instacart, you really don't ever have to leave the couch. Do with this information what you will. So download the Instacart app and get whatever you crave for the game and whatever else you need delivered in as fast as 30 minutes. Plus enjoy. Zero dollar delivery fees on your first three grocery orders. Instacart. We're here. Service fees apply. Three orders in 14 days excludes restaurants.

[Nick]

Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsync, go to libsynads. Com. That's L, I B S Y N Ads. Com Today.