E937 – Going Deeper with Michelle Saniei: A Marriage Horror Story

Summary

Episode Overview

In Episode E937 of The Viall Files titled "Going Deeper with Michelle Saniei: A Marriage Horror Story", host Nick Viall sits down with Michelle Saniei to unpack the tumultuous journey of her marriage, the challenges of being part of a reality TV show, and her path to personal healing and new beginnings. Released on May 21, 2025, this episode delves into the raw and unfiltered aspects of love, loss, and resilience.

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Michelle's Entry into Reality TV

Michelle begins by recounting her unexpected entry into reality television. She explains how friendships intertwined with aspirations led her and her then-husband Jesse to participate in a show that would ultimately expose and exacerbate their marital issues.

Michelle [02:54]: "I really never thought it was going to happen. And then a couple years later, we get a call and they're like, hey, it seems like we're moving forward and we're gonna start in a month."

Michelle acknowledges her naivety, admitting she didn't anticipate the emotional and personal costs of reality TV involvement.

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Diverging Personalities and Marital Struggles

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the contrasting personalities between Michelle and Jesse. While Michelle identifies herself as a reserved, business-oriented individual, Jesse’s aspirations leaned heavily towards reality TV and acting.

Michelle [05:06]: "I was just hardcore business, like, I'm all about real estate and working, and that's all I ever wanted to do."

This divergence in interests and personalities laid the groundwork for the subsequent strains in their marriage.

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Lack of Communication and Boundaries

Michelle highlights a critical lapse in their relationship: the absence of foundational conversations about setting boundaries before entering the reality show.

Michelle [07:30]: "We didn't know. We didn't have these conversations. It just kind of happened fast."

This lack of prior discussion meant that as the show progressed, existing marital cracks were laid bare without a solid strategy to protect their relationship.

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Financial Mismanagement and Substance Abuse

One of the most harrowing aspects Michelle shares is Jesse's reckless financial behavior and increasing substance abuse, which significantly deteriorated their marriage.

Michelle [09:16]: "He was spending all of our money. And I couldn't control that or control him."

Jesse's excessive spending, coupled with daily alcohol consumption and subsequent drug use, created an unstable and toxic environment for Michelle and their daughter Isabella.

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Impact on Family and Daughter

The couple's issues profoundly affected their daughter, Isabella. Michelle describes how Jesse's changing behavior and lack of intimacy not only strained their relationship but also impacted Isabella's perception of normalcy within her family.

Michelle [22:30]: "She would say, like, 'mommy, you know, it's okay that your first marriage didn't work out, but you can have. You can get married again.'"

Michelle realized the long-term implications of exposing their daughter to such an unstable environment, reinforcing her decision to leave the marriage for the sake of their child.

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Birth of Isabella and Additional Struggles

Michelle details the challenges surrounding Isabella’s birth during the peak of the COVID-19 pandemic. Jesse's lack of support and dismissive attitude during a critical moment underscored the depth of their marital issues.

Michelle [19:30]: "I just had Isabella, and he had about 15 minutes with her and had to go home. So I had to be at the hospital by myself."

This period marked a significant turning point, further solidifying Michelle’s resolve to end the marriage.

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Divorce Proceedings and Emotional Turmoil

As the marriage dissolved, Michelle faced not only financial disputes but also emotional abuse. Jesse’s strategic narrative-building aimed to tarnish Michelle’s reputation while absolving himself of responsibility.

Michelle [35:06]: "So, he wrote a lot about me. I'm tired of being silenced."

The legal battles and continuous emotional manipulation took a heavy toll on Michelle, highlighting the complexities of divorcing a partner entrenched in reality TV's public scrutiny.

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Path to Healing and New Beginnings

Despite the adversities, Michelle shares her journey towards healing. She emphasizes the importance of setting boundaries, seeking legal counsel, and prioritizing her daughter's well-being. Her newfound relationship with Aaron represents a stark contrast to her past, offering stability and genuine support.

Michelle [51:27]: "He's a lot like me. He's really easygoing and he doesn't have to show off anything. I love that."

Michelle's relationship with Aaron has been instrumental in rebuilding her life, allowing her to foster a healthy environment for herself and Isabella.

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Advice to Listeners

Towards the episode's conclusion, Michelle offers heartfelt advice to those navigating similar hardships. She underscores the importance of trusting one’s instincts, seeking professional help, and prioritizing the well-being of one’s children.

Michelle [57:52]: "Your gut is usually right about a lot of things. So it's like, if you really are done... I think it's better to do it when they're younger."

Her insights serve as a beacon of hope and guidance for listeners facing their own marital and personal challenges.

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Closing Thoughts

Nick and the team express deep empathy for Michelle’s experiences, acknowledging her strength and resilience. The episode not only sheds light on the darker aspects of reality TV participation but also celebrates the indomitable spirit of those who overcome personal turmoil to find happiness and stability.

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Notable Quotes

• Michelle [16:43]: "He uses 'it was a mistake' as an excuse for everything."
• Nick Viall [27:28]: "He seems like watching it. His whole sole purpose is to torture you. He seems like an emotional terrorist."
• Michelle [38:41]: "He's always trying to create this narrative, and I'm just like, stop saying things about me. I'm tired of being silenced."
• Michelle [55:35]: "I think so, yeah. Yeah."

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This episode serves as a poignant exploration of the intersection between personal lives and public exposure, offering listeners a candid look into the complexities of marriage, reality TV, and the journey to self-discovery and empowerment.

Transcript

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[Nick Viall]

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[Michelle]

You're crazy.

[Nick Viall]

Michelle. Welcome to the Vile Files.

[Michelle]

Thanks.

[Nick Viall]

Are you nervous? Excited? How you feeling? What?

[Michelle]

I always get nervous the first few minutes, but I am excited to talk.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Michelle]

Yeah, we're excited to talk to you too.

[Aaron]

I feel like you are a hero.

[Nelly]

You are brave for what you have gone through in that marriage.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nelly]

I mean, he's like, yeah, no, I do.

[Michelle]

I mean. And you just know the glimpse of it. You know what I mean?

[Nelly]

I cannot even imagine.

[Nick Viall]

I want. That's my goal today, is I want. I want to know all of it. I want to feel like when we get done talking that I've.

[Nelly]

That you were also married to Jesse.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Michelle]

Okay.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, I want. I want everyone listening to get the full experience.

[Michelle]

I'll try my best, but like, after this, I think I'm so sick of his name and him. I'm like, I don't want to talk about him anymore.

[Nick Viall]

That's fair.

[Michelle]

Very fair. Yeah.

[Nelly]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

But after today, right after today.

[Progressive Insurance Ad]

But I mean, I do want.

[Nick Viall]

I guess how we often start with these is someone who's been on reality tv. I'm a fan of it. I'm fascinated by it. I know I'm probably more than the average person about how the sausage is made and what it takes. I think lately I've also been trying to communicate to my audience the importance of appreciating what you all do for our entertainment. You know, reality stars in general. Nelly and I have been asked various times if we would be interested in.

[Michelle]

Would you?

[Nick Viall]

No. Absolutely fucking not. Because. Yeah, because I think it takes a lot to open up yourself, your life, you know, your family, for us to judge and pick apart and critique and question. So I am just kind of fascinated. Just like, what position were you in? What Was your state of mind. How were you approached by this whole experience and what made you say yes in the first place? I'd love to start there.

[Michelle]

It is kind of crazy looking back and thinking about it, because I say I was a little naive about it. I had never watched reality tv, so I didn't know how crazy it could get. Isabella, my daughter, was about six months old. We were friends with Jackson, Britney, and they pitched us the idea, and I was like, you know, mom, world. I wasn't working at the time. I was barely, like, getting any rest. I was tired. And then when he mentioned it, like, let's do a show. I'm like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I really never thought it was going to happen. And then a couple years later, we get a call and they're like, hey, it seems like we're moving forward and we're gonna start in a month. Yeah. And this was. You know, we weren't. Jesse and I weren't doing so well when she was little. Like, that started just our marriage falling apart. But the time that they said, we're gonna do this show, that's when I was really unclear about what was gonna happen. And so I just. I'm very easygoing. I'm just like, yeah, whatever. Like, I just said, yes. And I thought, okay, we can be open. We can show our problems. But, like, I didn't know all of this was gonna happen.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. Yeah. That's wild. Do you feel like looking back? Because it's, you know. Were you friends with Brittany and Jax through Jesse? Like, were Jesse and Jax first?

[Michelle]

They were, but they weren't friends for many, many years. They had a falling out in New York in their 20s. I. I didn't even know he was friends with Jax until after we were married. He was like, hey, I reconnected with this guy. I want you to meet Jax and know who they were. So the first time I met Brittany, I didn't know she was on reality tv. Her and I clicked, and I just kind of became in that group because I was always hanging out with them.

[Nick Viall]

What made. What made Jesse reconnect with Jax?

[Michelle]

Like, I think it was just like they were both. We had just gotten married, and I think Jax was engaged, and somehow through Instagram, they just kind of like, started talking again.

[Nick Viall]

Role model, probably. Did you feel like Jesse knew more than you or.

[Michelle]

Oh, a hundred percent. He always wanted to be an actor. That's why he went to New York. He wanted to be an actor. That's why he moved to LA. He wanted to do reality TV. He tried to do million dollar listing LA 10 years ago. Like, that has always been him. He has wanted this so much. And I'm the polar opposite. I was like, I'm a business girl. Like, I only know real estate, and that's all I ever wanted to do. So we have two completely different personalities. He goes into everything. He's very scripted. He has everything, like, in his mind of what he wants done.

[Nelly]

You can kind of see that. I feel like we kind of mentioned that before. Do you feel like if you would have watched reality tv, you maybe wouldn't have done it? Or do you feel like you were just so, like, probably.

[Michelle]

No probably, because I just thought, like, okay, it'd be another source of income and we get to hang out with our friends who we already hang out with. Like, I really didn't see.

[Nelly]

And you probably. I mean, being in real estate, you probably would have gotten more clients.

[Michelle]

And that, that was another thing I thought, because I was like, okay, like, million dol listing. All of them grew their business. So I actually thought it could benefit.

[Nick Viall]

Us, you know, because obviously you guys were still married at the time. Do you feel like you even had the option to say no to this opportunity or.

[Michelle]

I never really had a voice with him. It was whatever he wanted. But again, I was really easygoing. Like, I'm a very easy girl. And. Sorry, that doesn't sound right, but I'm very easygoing. And so I just said, like, yeah, let's do it.

[Nick Viall]

That makes sense. And so what conversations, if any, easygoing or not like you. So you acknowledge that, like, this is a time when already your marriage had its cracks. And did you guys as a couple sit down with any type of conversations about, like, Nia and Dark Danny have been a topic of conversation. And we were talking about it in terms of, you know, Brittany was frustrated because they're not opening up. And I get it. Like, you know, Britney is like this old school reality TV star who is like, this is what we do, you know, this. We, we. We are vulnerable. And we could argue whether Nia and Danny aren't meant for reality tv. But there's something to be said about a couple who prioritizes their marriage first, who gets on the same page first, who doesn't feel like they owe anything to anyone outside of their marriage. And they might sit down and say, hey, okay, we're gonna take a risk as a couple and we're gonna do this show and, hey, we could use the money and maybe this will help our business. And before we do this. Like, what are some boundaries and some rules that we have as a couple? Sure. That we don't lose whatever we have here. I'm guessing. Do you guys have these.

[Michelle]

We didn't know. We didn't have these conversations. It just kind of happened fast. We had NBC people come over our house. They really liked us, and it was just like, all right, we're gonna start shooting in a week. We did not have these conversations.

[Nick Viall]

Wow. Did you have a lot of fears on your own about like that, or were you. It was just kind of a whirlwind or.

[Michelle]

I was just nervous because, as you can see, compared to everybody else, like, I'm just quiet. I'm more to myself. I'm more reserved. I'm an introvert. So I was just like. I didn't know what that was going to be like. And I just said, I'm going to be myself. I'm not going to act and pretend to be this person that I'm not. So I was just worried about how I was going to be portrayed or looked at, but I really, honestly was very naive about it.

[Nelly]

Do you feel like Jesse kind of, like, turned it on, in a sense, for the cameras, or do you think he's just. That's who he is.

[Michelle]

It's both. He turns it on with anybody he wants to. Like, he has a very good way. Like he has a light switch. It's just like, it's on if he likes you, if he thinks you have money or whatever the case is. It's like he has this Persona that's not really who he is.

[Nick Viall]

Because you guys had cracks in the marriage. I think fans have questioned if you guys already knew that the divorce was happening. And it was like, you know what? Fuck it, let's do this on tv.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

And at least, like, this will be. This would be a great way to kick off a show. A messy divorce.

[Michelle]

Yeah. Unfortunately, that's not what happened.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Michelle]

I was really confused, and he already knew that I wanted to divorce. I had asked for a divorce a year prior, and he had begged me and asked me for a chance. And I gave him the list of things like, if you want this marriage to work, I need you to do A, B and C. What were those?

[Nick Viall]

What was on that list?

[Michelle]

I mean, there was a lot, but the major problems. I mean, every marriage has problems, but when you have a lot of big, big problems, then it's obviously not good for a marriage. One of them was his drinking. He was just, at the time, drinking way too much. Every single Day, you know, he would drink bottles of vodka, vodka on the rocks. And when you have a baby, that's just not doable. We had financial issues, meaning that he was. I was meant to stay at home and take care of the baby, and he was out all day, but he was just not working. He was just the opposite, going out and spending money, and it was just like a constant battle of spending and spending and spending. And he always says, like, we were fit. He says it now. We were 50% business partners, but he spent 90% of our money. And it was very frustrating because I'm like, I'm at home taking care of our baby, and you're just spending all our money. And I couldn't control that or control him.

[Nick Viall]

Would he acknowledge that at this point?

[Michelle]

He always made excuses. No. He'll say, like, oh, I deserved it, or I was a family trip, so it's fine. And it wasn't fine.

[Nick Viall]

But he wouldn't deny spending the money. Like, if he were here on the couch and I was like, hey, what do you have to say to this? What do you think he would say?

[Michelle]

It's hard because every time you ask him the same question, it will be a different response. So it just depends. Sometimes he will acknowledge it, and sometimes he's like, she's crazy. I don't know what she's talking about.

[Nelly]

And it's also like, you were home with your child, and you could have been like, listen, I can be out there working, but, like, this is. It's like, you could have done something to help your family, but you were also, like, taking care of the child and saving money that way by, like, not having to spend money on a babysitter or nanny or daycare or whatever it was. So, yeah, it's like a double end of losing money, you know, I mean.

[Michelle]

I say it's like kind of being with a gambler. Like, you can't be married to an alcoholic to a gambler. And I felt like he was kind of that person. And so it was very hard on me to just watch him not grow as a person, and he was just going backwards. Once I had a baby, that's when it, like, started. Once I had a baby, it completely changed.

[Nelly]

How was he like throughout your pregnancy? Did you feel like he was very supportive or like. Like, Nick was very cautious about, like, the environment that I was in when I was pregnant. It was very much like, no one fucking stress her out. Like, stay away from her. If you have drama, do not bring it in this house. Was Jesse like, that or did he.

[Michelle]

Start to see me? I'm gonna take it back. He changed. Once I became pregnant, it just. I started seeing a different side of him just not being there for me or being supportive. And intimacy started changing the moment I became pregnant. And that was another big problem that I had in our. In our marriage.

[Nelly]

Like, he wasn't touching you. He wasn't. Wow.

[Michelle]

Never.

[Nelly]

And I bet that. I mean, I think every woman feels, you know, your body's changing, you're getting larger, you don't feel sexy. And then to have a partner who's also not showing any interest, it's like, okay, so you're confirming everything that's in my head. That must have been very hard to deal with.

[Michelle]

It was really hard because it was just like, all he cared about was himself and what he looked like and how good he looks. And it was just like, give me compliments. And I'm like, wait a minute. Why don't. Why can't it be both ways? Why do I have to constantly do all of these things for you? And so it just took a toll mentally.

[Nelly]

Yeah.

[Michelle]

I mean, I even heard in the boys chat that he said I was fat while I was pregnant. Like, it was really bad, and I'm glad that I left.

[Nick Viall]

That's crazy. Do you think he was excited to be a dad?

[Michelle]

He was, but I don't know if he really knew what that meant.

[Nick Viall]

Oh, say more. What do you mean by that? I mean, I think I get what you're saying, but I'd love for you to elaborate.

[Michelle]

Obviously, you get married, you have a child. Like, both of you have to put in the work.

[Nelly]

It's a lot of work.

[Michelle]

Yeah, it is so much work. You can't depend one person to do it all. And that was him. And on top of that, it was, like I said, like, he was going backwards in life. He started drinking more, he started doing drugs. He started just doing all these things in his 40s when it. He wasn't doing that before we got married or while we were married, really, he.

[Nick Viall]

So he. Okay. What kind of drugs was he doing?

[Michelle]

He started doing coke after Isabella was born. And our entire relationship, we were together for years. I'm very anti drugs. And so was he. He was like, people don't do that. That's an absolute no. And then once I had a baby, like, I started noticing things. I started asking him because it was very apparent and obvious, and he would. I could see him lying to my face, and it was just very difficult.

[Nick Viall]

That's crazy. What was He. I mean, I guess there's a backtrack a little bit. What. What was he like when you first met? You know, like, very different.

[Michelle]

Because everybody's. And it is kind of crazy to think, like, how we started and how we ended up. He. First of all, we met in 2015 and he lived in a one bedroom little apartment in West Hollywood, was doing okay in real estate. He was very sweet. He would always make me dinners like wine and cheese, buy a 20 bottle of wine. Like, very average guy from Boston. And we got along really well and we became business partners immediately. So we had that in common. We were just always going out, and it was a lot of fun, but it was like we were on the same train. It's like we went out, had a couple of drinks, and that was it. We loved to travel. We had a really good life. And then finally, once I had a baby, it was like he decided to start hanging out with Jax and all of these people and then started doing drugs.

[Nelly]

I mean, we've obviously had Jax recently open up about his drug addiction to cocaine. I can only imagine that probably had something to do with Jesse venturing into that path.

[Michelle]

Yeah, I mean, they hung out, so it's obvious that he did it. He would probably deny it, but what.

[Nick Viall]

Do you think being a father meant to Jesse? Not.

[Michelle]

Yeah, to him? It was like the. The picture perfect family. It's like, I got my daughter, I got my wife, everything looks good. But he didn't do the work or care about anything.

[Nick Viall]

His responsibility was as a dad.

[Michelle]

Honestly, I don't know because, like, he.

[Nelly]

Wasn'T providing, he was spending. He wasn't like.

[Nick Viall]

Or just like. Or just like the little. I mean, like just when.

[Michelle]

And I don't know what he expected because it was years and years and years of him not being intimate with me, spending all our money, drinking too much, just not being a good husband. And so finally I fell out of love with him. And then it's very frustrating watching season one because he has this act of he's trying so hard, but I gave him. I told him the answers, like, I didn't want to get divorced. I wanted to be married. I loved him very much, and he just didn't do the work.

[Nick Viall]

Why do you think, you know, because obviously season one, towards the end when you were like, hey, I'm not happy. I kind of hate you and I want a divorce. And he really went into, like, victim mindset of, I can't believe this is happening to us or me, and please give me another chance. And he's crying. But, like, if we are. If we're trying to give Jesse the benefit of the doubt or. Or at least if we try to at least put ourselves in his shoes. Why do you feel like he had such a hard time being a guy claiming to want to make this marriage work?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Why do you think he had such a hard time, like, just doing anything to. To try to save it? Because. Yeah.

[Michelle]

Well, I think 1. He never thought in a million years I would actually leave because I tried to leave once, and he convinced me of staying. So he was like, she's. I have a kid with her, but.

[Nick Viall]

Once that happens, you know, it's in your head.

[Michelle]

Yeah. You would think. And he did try for a couple weeks. And then we moved into the Marmont house. And it was like, the day that we moved in, we had movers, and he got so wasted with his friend, and I have the baby, and I'm directing all the movers of what to and everything. And he was so drunk out of his mind, he couldn't walk to his bed. And I'm like, this is like, a moment for me. I've never lived in a house. Like, it was a big moment that we were moving into a house, like.

[Nelly]

Your first house with your family, like your daughter. Yeah.

[Michelle]

And it was just like another little example of, like, this should be a special moment or a nice moment. Like, you don't need to get drunk with your guy friend on the corner while we have movers and a child and trying to figure everything out.

[Nelly]

Does that kind of feel like a pattern of, like, he would ruin special moments for you a lot?

[Michelle]

Often, yeah.

[Nelly]

What was your birth like with Isabella.

[Michelle]

I've mentioned was hard because I was pregnant, and I had her in April 2020, which was the worst time of COVID Yeah.

[Nelly]

Wow.

[Michelle]

Every day the law was changing in the hospital whether a parent could go in or if one person could go in. So I didn't even know. And I was always afraid of giving birth. Like, that was my one thing. I hate hospitals, blood, pain, all of that. So I remember having contractions at, like, 9pm this is like, April 13th. And he's going to bed, and I'm like, I'm starting to feel it. He's like, well, try to go as long as you can, because they always send you back from the hospital if you're not. If you're not close enough. Close enough, exactly. So all night he slept. He's like, wake me up when you think you're ready to go. So he slept the entire night in our master bedroom. And I'm texting my sister. She's like, you know, time your contractions. And, like, the whole night I was in a lot of pain. And it's finally like 8am or 7am and I'm like, I need to wake him up. So I wake him up. He's, like, very well rested. I'm like, we need to go. Really? Like, I remember I couldn't really breathe. He's like, I'm going to make you breakfast and then we can go. So he gave me a bite of eggs and I threw up immediately. And I'm like, I need to go to the hospital now. So I check in. They give me the epidural.

[Aaron]

That.

[Michelle]

That was kind of an argument because he didn't really want me to have it, but I said, I'm having it. I was in so much shame.

[Nick Viall]

Why didn't you have an opinion?

[Nelly]

Yeah, I was about to say, this isn't the right.

[Michelle]

He had an opinion about everything. If it were up to him, which he tried to convince me while I was pregnant, I would have had a water birth at home, in the bath, all natural, by myself, with him.

[Nick Viall]

Based off of what? Knowledge.

[Michelle]

He doesn't believe in doctors and medicine and just.

[Progressive Insurance Ad]

Cocaine.

[Nelly]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Wow. I mean, it's like, again, my sister's a holistic nutritionist, and she's into all that stuff, but, like, she went to school and studied and, like, you know, if. If. If I ask her a question, she can articulate a point of view and a. And a. You know, not just like. Yeah, to be different.

[Michelle]

So, long story short, I was in at 7 cm for 20 hours, and I was getting high blood pressure. I was starting to get really ill. And the doctor's like, we need to give you Pitocin to help you. And Jesse was very anti. Absolutely not. And so my.

[Nick Viall]

Do you know what that is?

[Nelly]

I think he did a quick Google search, like, while they said it, and then he's like, no, he can't.

[Michelle]

So he's fighting with Mike.

[Nick Viall]

Imagine playing doctor at a hospital.

[Michelle]

He's arguing with the doctor, and, like, I barely can breathe, and I'm just not feeling good. And finally I just hear the doctor, like, I'm overruling you. This can affect the baby and Michelle. And so he did it. And then finally I had Isabella, and He had about 15 minutes with her and had to go home. So I had to be at the hospital by myself.

[Nick Viall]

Why do you have to go home for?

[Michelle]

Covid. Covid.

[Nick Viall]

Covid.

[Michelle]

Yeah. So he was allowed, like, 15 minutes with her.

[Nelly]

Wow.

[Michelle]

And that was the start.

[Nelly]

I was about to say. And then. I can't even imagine, like, postpartum, obviously, you go through so much physically, mentally.

[Michelle]

Emotionally, and like, thankfully, I didn't have any postpartum depression, thank God, because then I really don't know what I would have done. But it was overall really hard because I didn't have my mom come visit. I would. Nobody knew what it was at the time. Everybody was, like, cleaning Amazon boxes. And I'm like, I don't want my baby to have Covid. Nobody's coming to visit. And so I just did everything on my own.

[Nick Viall]

Jesus. And he. And he.

[Michelle]

He was present when she was born because he had no option. Everything was closed down. There was no work, no. No restaurants, no nothing.

[Nick Viall]

Was he, you know, helping you with, like, actually, yeah.

[Michelle]

No. I brought. Breastfed. He. That was also very important that I always only breastfed. So I breastfed for almost over a year, Almost a year and a half.

[Nick Viall]

Jesse. It was important.

[Michelle]

It was important to me, but it.

[Progressive Insurance Ad]

Was important to us.

[Nick Viall]

But I'm just kind of curious how. How opinionated he was about what you.

[Michelle]

Should do with your now. Looking back, I. I was just so used to, like, that was my relationship. It is kind of crazy to think, like, who I am now. And I think that's part of his frustration because he can't control me anymore.

[Aaron]

Did.

[Nelly]

Was there a part of you that when you. Once you had Isabella, you started seeing all these changes in your husband? Was there a part of you that, like, did. Did a lot of this happen in front of Isabella? Like, the way he spoke. We see the way he speaks to you on tv.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nelly]

So did he speak to you like that in front of Isabella?

[Michelle]

Yeah. And I saw it starting to affect her. And, like, even if he raised his voice a little bit at me, like, she would say, like, guys, or like, she didn't want us, and she couldn't. Like, she wouldn't even allow Jesse to come close to me and hug me because she had never seen Jesse give me a hug. So it was very odd to her. And I just started realizing how, like, this was her new normal life. And I'm like, this is not normal for my husband or her dad to, like, not hug me. And that's weird to my daughter. That's when I knew, like, something's not right.

[Nelly]

Did it cross your mind, like, her growing up and, like, choosing her partner and how that would affect her long term?

[Michelle]

Yes. And that is what gave me the courage to leave. If I didn't have her, I don't know if I would have left. And somebody said that to me. The life coach was like, what would you say to your daughter if she was married to a Jesse? And that just opened up my eyes and I'm like, I can't do this for her.

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[Nelly]

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[Nick Viall]

I keep going back to like, here's what fascinates me about your ex husband is that he comes across. I've never met him in person. I hope to have an opportunity to have him on his couch. We'll see if. See if he's up for it.

[Michelle]

He'll be very charming. He'll try to change how you feel about it.

[Nick Viall]

I'm sure he will. I look forward to that opportunity. I don't think he's met me before. He comes across is a guy who cares deeply about what people think of him, and yet he comes across on TV as an absolute asshole. I know what it's like to go on TV not knowing what it's like and not wanting to be the villain, you know, and turning out to be a villain and be like, oh, you know, and then have an editing room just kind of focus on just some stupid looks you make or some like, sarcastic remarks you make and have them package that into like a Persona that you didn't even try to play. But the benefit of going on multiple seasons and recurring seasons is one everyone loves a comeback, an arc. And we had Tom Swartz here the other day and he tells us that we're gonna see a softer side of Jesse, and maybe we will. But I hate him so much as a character on a show and he comes across as so unlikable, even for the guy who.

[Michelle]

That's part.

[Nick Viall]

I don't get, you know what I'm saying? Like, if he doesn't seem like he's an idiot for the most part, he's so. He's smart, cares deeply what people think. And, like, he had the benefit of watching himself on season one. How is he showing up in being such a prick?

[Michelle]

And he's trying his hardest because I'm telling you, like, he had a binder. He had scripts, he has ideas. He goes in there completely with an agenda.

[Nick Viall]

I mean, a binder of, like.

[Michelle]

Of, like, what he wants to say once he wants to. What he wants to do everything. Like, for example, being friends with Kristen, like, that was a very strategic thing that he did because he knew that that was gonna bother me. He knew that that was gonna, like, have people love him. He has this binder.

[Nelly]

Was the underwear in that binder?

[Michelle]

Because.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah.

[Michelle]

Well, I don't know if you guys realize he can drink so much and be okay. He was so drunk the entire time in Santa Barbara. So drunk. So that was late. And I don't think he was expecting anybody to go in his room.

[Nick Viall]

What made him buy that underwear in the first place? I just. More like.

[Michelle]

So I have to say, he did have night underwear. Like sleeping underwear and daytime underwear.

[Nick Viall]

What's the difference?

[Michelle]

One of them, you sleep. So just get skims, man.

[Nelly]

You know, get pretty gray.

[Michelle]

But he didn't have those while I was married to him. I don't know. You know, we love downtown.

[Nick Viall]

So was he in his night comfy underwear when he got caught on cameras?

[Michelle]

Were his cozy panties, his granny panties?

[Nelly]

That was crazy. So he really planned out. He plans everything he's gonna do for this show.

[Michelle]

Yeah. And I'm the complete opposite. I'm like, but it's not working for him.

[Nelly]

It's not.

[Michelle]

And he tries so hard, but, like, the real him comes out here and there. And I'm like, people don't really see, like, the fool Jesse. You just see bits and pieces at the scene.

[Nelly]

Early on this season, where you go. I think it might have been the first episode. You go to his house to kind of talk about the schedule with Isabella, and he starts crying, and you're like, come on, don't do it.

[Michelle]

Oh, yes. Like, you.

[Nelly]

Like, you knew that that was.

[Michelle]

You can tell him cry, and he'll cry like tears. He can do it. No problem.

[Nelly]

That acting class, really?

[Nick Viall]

So you think we've only seen fake tears from Jesse?

[Michelle]

I think so. I mean, the only thing is his ego was really hurt in season one, But I think it's all. It was just all for the cameras.

[Nick Viall]

Do you think it's more like the way you talk talk? You know, it's like, I'm trying to figure out whether he was just always kind of a bad guy, a bad partner with bad expectations of what it meant to be a good partner, a good husband, or good. Or do you feel like he changed as a person?

[Michelle]

I think now, looking back, he was always kind of a bad guy, but he has good ways of, like, hiding it. I think to his core, he's not a great guy. Like, he thinks about himself before others first. And I think that's the biggest problem that I had with him, because I'm the opposite. I think about others first. And so, I mean, he used to always tell me, like, growing up, people always said that I was entitled. And it's because he does think he's better than everybody. He thinks he's the smartest guy in the room. He'll say it. He'll probably say that to your face. He just thinks he's better and smarter. What. What was.

[Nick Viall]

You're usually not when you think that. And you're not supposed to be the smartest person in every room.

[Michelle]

And yesterday I went. Yesterday I went to go see houses, and there's some people that are barely learning that we're not together. And I ran into agents that knew us really well. They're like, wait, you're not together? That makes perfect sense. I always wanted to tell you. And so many people are, like, just telling me, like, you guys should have never ended up together. I. You. I never saw it. I'm like, why didn't people tell me? Thanks.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, my parents said that once about my second girlfriend. I was like, I could have been, you know. But I think sometimes, you know, we don't. We're not very receptive to it in the moment.

[Nelly]

I was just gonna ask what your family was like at home, like, growing up. Were your parents together? Are they together?

[Michelle]

My parents were married until I was 13. They were really in love with each other, but my dad had a mental disorder, so he left the family.

[Nelly]

Sorry.

[Michelle]

But I am the youngest. I have a brother and sister, and I came from, like, the most loving, normal family, I guess you could say, ever. I'm very close to my family. I'm trying not to get emotional because my mom passed away.

[Nelly]

Oh, I'm so sorry. When did she pass?

[Michelle]

In November.

[Nelly]

Oh, my God.

[Michelle]

Yeah, so that was another thing in this season that I was going through so much with Jesse, and he knows that my mom was very sick and in chemo and. And so I was just, like, unwell because I was dealing with his bullshit and my mom's chemo and. Yeah, she passed she passed away after filming.

[Nick Viall]

Do you think he has any idea?

[Michelle]

Yeah. I'm just really sorry.

[Nelly]

That must. I just can't imagine, like, going through that and then having Jesse, who is, like, supposed to be your human, you.

[Aaron]

Know, your rock, your partner, like, terrorize you.

[Michelle]

And that's why sometimes I hate him so much. And it shows because he never gave me sympathy. He never, like. He was just never caring what's.

[Aaron]

Never had your back.

[Michelle]

I know it's really hard.

[Nelly]

I'm really sorry.

[Michelle]

Thank you.

[Nick Viall]

Do you think he's kind of like a monster?

[Michelle]

Yeah. I wish. I wish he was in, and I wish I could say he's this, like, wonderful person, and I hope that one day he can grow, but. But he never has.

[Nelly]

Was your mom really proud of you for getting out of that marriage?

[Michelle]

Yeah, she was very happy that I left. And in the summer, she had to have immediate surgery. And so I drove to San Diego, and my family saw me really unwell. And it was the day after Dave and Buster's. And so I hadn't slept, and I cried all night. And I didn't wanna say anything. And my family's like, what's wrong, wrong? And I was just in my head because I didn't know what to say. And I'm like, I don't want to say this. She was in the hospital, and she's like, just tell me. And I'm like, jesse called me a hooker on national tv. And my whole family was just like. We knew what a disgusting person he is, but he'll never be accepted in our family in the future.

[Nelly]

Did he ever reach out to you after your mom passed?

[Michelle]

Yes. I had Isabella FaceTime him. And I said that. That she needed to let him know. And she called him and told him. She said, grandma went to heaven. And he actually sent me a nice text, a very nice text, saying, like, I'm so sorry for your loss. If there's anything I can do, please let me know. And so that day was my day with Isabella. And I'm like, I don't. An hour later, I'm like, I don't think I can take care of her. I need you to please take over. And we actually talked to a therapist once about Isabella and how we were gonna handle my mom's passing. Cause she was so close to her, and we were on the same page. And the therapist told Jesse, like, you need to. You need to be better with Michelle. She's going to need you, and you're going to need to take Isabella more days because she's going to need to grieve on her own without Isabella. So I text him, I need you to take care of her that day. And he's like, oh, I'm sorry. I'm already on my way to O.C. i can't. And so hours later, somebody must have told him something, but he's like, why don't you get a nanny and I'll pay for it and night. And that was the only nice thing he's ever really done. And that wasn't even to me.

[Nelly]

Like, I mean, he couldn't. But the OC Is where his. The girlfriend is, so he couldn't even be like, hey, this is a little bit more important. I'm gonna.

[Nick Viall]

My child's grandmother died. Even if he didn't want to make it about you, you know?

[Michelle]

So that's all I can say. Like, this is why I'm so angry. And I'm still angry because it's just like one after the other and there's only so much I could take. And I just realized, like, he was awful to me and he's continuing to be. And there's just like. That's why I talk about him. And it's hard not to because he does so much to me that people have no idea.

[Nelly]

Yeah. He doesn't hold back at all.

[Nick Viall]

Do you think his accusing you of the infidelity is all part of his. Is in his binder, so to speak, and part of his plan.

[Michelle]

Yeah. So we actually met because he said, I wanna speak before the summer so that we're on the same page. So he made me go to his friend's house and sat me down. And he's like, I don't want you to talk about our finances. I don't want you to say a word. Like, that was so important to him, his. The finances, because he's in a lot of trouble. And I said, okay. He's like, tell me the truth about what happened. So I told him the story. I made a mistake before I left him. That's part of the reason why I left him because I knew I no longer wanted to be in this marriage. I kissed somebody. I should have never done it. And that's it. And so he's like, have you ever been with Aaron? I'm like, absolutely not. That happened after I asked for a divorce. And so he knew everything before the summer. I was very clear. I answered all of his questions. I said, for Isabella's sake, can we please not discuss this? And he's like, I swear I will not say this on tv. And every single day. He was fixated. And that was all he could talk about when he knew the truth about everything.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, no, he's. He's meeting his life coach or therapist and making it a part of the conversation and suggesting that you were cheating on him for two years and sleeping around.

[Michelle]

And he knew that that wasn't the case. He was the one always gone. Like, God knows what the hell he was doing for eight hours a day.

[Nelly]

I mean, even. Even the whole, like, Aaron lives by Runyon. She would wear makeup to Runyun, and she would put the honey in.

[Aaron]

It was just.

[Nelly]

It felt very calculated. And so it does make sense that you say that, like, he has all of this planned out. Because it seemed very planned out.

[Michelle]

Yeah. And I didn't wear makeup to Runyon.

[Aaron]

But also, like, it's la.

[Nelly]

Everyone's wearing makeup to Runyon. Like, you never know who you're gonna meet.

[Nick Viall]

You know, like, there's paparazzi literally hiding behind bushes.

[Michelle]

Yeah, yeah. So he was aware. He just wanted the world to know and to paint me as this, like, bad person. And he got what he. Like. Like, I don't know what he got.

[Nick Viall]

From it, but what kind of money problems does he have?

[Nelly]

I mean, the gay man is sending him money.

[Nick Viall]

Were you just kind of being petty there?

[Michelle]

I wasn't being petty. I was trying to make a point because he knew that somebody had sent me money, and I told him why, and he knew this person very, very well. And I'm like, why are you allowed to make up about me, but I'm not allowed to talk about your finances or what's actually going on? But no, like, the same time that I got a payment, he also got a payment from somebody, which was more than I got. So it's just frustrating because he's always trying to create this narrative, and I'm just like, stop saying things about me. I'm tired of being silenced.

[Nick Viall]

His lies are based off these tiny truths that he then snowballs into something more nefarious and. And that makes you look worse.

[Michelle]

Exactly.

[Nick Viall]

And so is it like his money problems are just from, like, overspending or.

[Michelle]

Like I said, he's just an overspender. If we. I'm just going to. To throw out numbers. Like, if we made $500,000 a year, he spent 800,000. It was just, like, constant. Constant. I have to take my family to Europe. And he spent 120,000 just on his mom, dad, and brother. Like, he was spending an enormous amount. Not just, like, you know, $1,000 here. No, it was like ten thousand dollar lunches. I'm going to Napa for the weekend. I'm spending $30,000. It was just non stop. And I was watching just like it drop and drop and drop and it wasn't for me.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah, we had Tom here and he was like, oh, Jesse might not be like great, but he's an amazing father and he loves his daughter. I get frustrated sometimes when I hear stuff like that. Cause it's like I think sometimes, especially dads, it's like they just decide that they're good dads because their version of, of love. I don't know. I'm sure he love. I'm sure Jesse thinks he loves his daughter. But like how you show up for your family to me is a demonstration of whether you're a good father.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Or not.

[Michelle]

And I say he's a good father because he's able to by himself take care of Isabella and do all of the things where I don't know if every man can do that on their own. He's able to do that.

[Nelly]

Trust him to feed her three meals a day and like give her bare minimum.

[Michelle]

Absolutely. I think she's safe life. But somebody recently told me like he's not a good dad because of the way he treats you. And your daughter's gonna see that. So like, yes, he may think he's a good dad, but he's never gonna be a good father until he treats you the right way. Right.

[Nelly]

Unless he stops. Yeah. Calling you, I mean calling the mother of his child on national television a lying, cheating whore. I mean, I don't know how you move past that.

[Michelle]

I still haven't. I still haven't because I know like he says it was a mistake, that he sent a text. He knew exactly what he was doing. He knew that all those people in the boys chat were one of them was going to say something like he implanted that on purpose instead of, you know, saying what he says, which is like it was a mistake. I didn't know that people were going to talk about.

[Nelly]

It's so funny. It was just a joke is what I feel like he keeps like is his excuse for everything. It's like, oh, it's just a joke. It's like, like to who? And where is this?

[Nick Viall]

Like, he seems like watching it. His whole sole purpose is to torture you. He seems like an emotional terrorist.

[Michelle]

I think he, he did and has been for the last two years.

[Nelly]

What do you love about being a mom?

[Michelle]

Everything. Yeah, she's amazing. She Completes me. I'm very involved. I don't believe in. I let her watch, like, a little tv. But when I'm with her, we love, like, painting and going to the park, and she's very advanced for her age, so, like, our discussions are really, really funny and cute. She's actually like, I love the story because we're just driving, and she's like, mommy, you know, it's okay that your first marriage didn't work out, but you can have. You can get married again. I'm like, thank you. Don't. You don't need to worry about me. But she's just really adorable.

[Nick Viall]

How do you handle. I mean, like, one part. People watching it, and people have a lot of opinions, and we have as well. And just obviously, like, just hearing your side of the story and Nelly both have a ton of empathy for you, because it really. I mean, he does. He just seems like a lot of this is by his doing, and he honestly seems like an emotionally abusive person. I don't know how else to describe it. I mean, I don't know how you. I don't know, like, if. If that's not emotionally abusive to strategize around, like, trying to emotionally terrorize your wife or ex wife, and then that maybe the. Maybe the substance abuse problems and the spending problems are a cause of it. But, like, I just don't. Like, that's just how he seems.

[Michelle]

I think, at the end of the day, it was because of his ego was hurt, and he could not imagine that somebody left him. And somebody left, like, the perfect family illusion, and, like, he cares about what other people thinks. And so that's really what it came down to, because I don't think he truly loved me at the end at all. Like, he could have done anything to fix it, and he didn't.

[Nelly]

When y' all initially separated, did you kind of have a, like, rule or boundary around dating and new people surrounding Isabella? Kind of like, we're not gonna just put anybody around our daughter.

[Michelle]

Yes, actually, he made the rule. He said he makes a lot of rules.

[Nick Viall]

He has a lot of rules for you that don't apply to him.

[Michelle]

Correct? Yeah.

[Nelly]

Yeah.

[Michelle]

He said, we're not introducing anybody to Isabella. You're never gonna introduce a man. I said, well, that's not true. There's gonna come a point where I meet, but I will let you know. And if you want to meet them before or if we want to do it together, like. Like, I will let you know, and there'll be the right time. And as her Mother, I'll know when that right time is. And he's like, fine. And then my mom actually was in town doing Isabella's hair. And Isabella told my mom because she had like a really nice braid. She's like, did your dad learn how to do a braid? She's like, oh, no. Daddy's friend came over and did it. And she's like, yeah. And my mom started asking a couple questions and she's like, yeah, there was a girl in daddy's bed. And. And so I started calling him and texting him and I'm like, what's going on? And he's like, what are you talking about? He's like, nobody was here. I'm like, isabella told me what is going on? And finally he's like, oh, I just had a friend here. I'm like, you told me we weren't introducing somebody and you just started doing her hair. Yeah. And it's just so frustrating because I'm like, all I care about is Isabella. And it's like, if you're dating her for a week, you don't know if you're gonna date her in a month. Like, just wait or have a conversation and give me a heads up or anything. Like, just do things right way. And I've learned like, he's not going to do what I would do to me. These things are common sense. But I've just learned, like, I can't control him.

[Nelly]

And this. Is that the same woman who sent you the nasty texts?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nelly]

And the ceased and deceased.

[Nick Viall]

Are you still dating?

[Michelle]

I've heard they're on and off.

[Nick Viall]

But what was she. Why was she reaching out to you recently?

[Michelle]

Oh, I guess in general, I really don't want to talk about her. That's fine. Yeah, that's fair. I don't want any communication with her.

[Aaron]

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[Michelle]

I know I want that as well.

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[Nick Viall]

Notch grooming this Father's Day.

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[Aaron]

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[Nelly]

And I don't need them either.

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[Chris Gethard]

Hi, I'm Chris Gethard and I'm very excited to tell you about Beautiful Anonymous, a podcast where I talk to random people on the phone. I tweet out a phone number. Thousands of people try to call. Talk to one of them. They stay anonymous. I can't hang up. That's all the rules. I never know what's gonna happen. We get serious ones. I've talked with meth dealers on their way to prison. I've talked to people who survived mass shootings. Crazy funny ones. I talked to a guy with a goose slap, somebody who dresses up as a pirate on the weekends. I never know what's gonna happen. It's a great show. Subscribe today. Beautiful Anonymous can we talk about Aaron?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nelly]

Are you still dating?

[Michelle]

We are dating. Okay, good. He's my happy place. Him and Isabella. If I didn't have them last summer, I don't know where I would be.

[Nelly]

You kind of hinted in the most recent episode kind of like he was starting to struggle with Jesse and kind of was like, listen, if this doesn't stop, like, I don't know if we can continue. How did you move past that with him?

[Michelle]

I had to learn boundaries with Jesse because at the time I was really allowing him to text me all day long and really affect my mood. And it was starting to affect, like, me when I was with Aaron and he was working so he didn't go to Santa Barbara. And he obviously heard what happened and he was just really upset that he would say those things to me. And he's like, I'm so angry. I can't even be in the same room as him. And so it did take a toll for a while. But. But we spoke and he's like, you need to take a step back. You need to have boundaries with Jesse. He cannot just talk to you whenever he wants. And so I cut Jesse completely. If he texts me, I didn't respond. I just didn't have any communication with him unless I had to ask him a question about Isabella. And so that helped me a lot. But it was a process because I was just so used to constantly fighting with Jesse. And so once I cut him off, that made a big difference. Difference.

[Nelly]

And how long have you and Aaron been together now?

[Michelle]

Almost a year and a half.

[Nelly]

Oh, wow.

[Michelle]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Nelly]

And Isabella likes him.

[Michelle]

Loves him. I actually just moved in two months ago to his house. Yeah, my lease was up, so I moved out of Marmont. I got an apartment really close by because I didn't want to affect anything. I lived there for a year. And then finally it was just like we had the conversation. We have a very strong relationship. And he's like, I want you to move in. I have the space. He has a three bedroom house. And so we just moved in.

[Nelly]

What are some qualities about Aaron that you love that Jesse didn't have?

[Michelle]

He's a lot like me. He's really easygoing and he's. He doesn't have to show off anything. I love that. Like, we go to church every Sunday and he's just like a really nice guy and everybody likes him. Like, that was the thing about Jesse. I always felt like I had to fight for him. And a lot of people convince people all the time and. And it's just organic and easy with Aaron and it's like he's part of this Big Brother program and he helps kids once a week and he's just like A very giving person. And when the LA fires happen, like he wanted to donate and like, how can we help the world? And he's just like a good person. And Jesse just didn't have that. I never had that life with Jesse.

[Nelly]

Wow.

[Nick Viall]

Why did he think of being friends with Kristen would piss you off?

[Michelle]

First of all, they hated each other. There was a time I was very close to Kristen, which was the first time I wanted to leave Jesse. I was texting her all the time. I told her when I found the apartment she couldn't stand Jesse and Jesse could not stand Kristin. Like the things he has said about her. He just thought she's trash and she's this and that. And like the worst things you can say he would say about her. Like he didn't even understand how I was friends with Kristen and like fast forward now, you know, they're friends and it doesn't make sense because I know exactly what they have said about each other. And he knows like every. A lot of people do love Kristen and she's like an og and so if he tagged with her then that's just gonna be, you know, they have somebody in common.

[Nick Viall]

A lot was made of your seat assignment at the reunion. Like, do you have any thoughts on that? And then a follow up to that is like, what do you think your future with this show is? And do you think it's something you want to be a part of?

[Michelle]

Well, I've been told that it was the hardest seating chart because nobody got along and it's like it was one of the hardest ones to do for a reunion. They said at one point I was in the front and they just kept switching people and at the end of the day, like that was the best case. I didn't mind it because I wasn't close to Jesse. I mean, it's just a seating chart.

[Nick Viall]

Yeah. Fans seem to make a big deal about it and there's a lot of speculation and on how these things are made. But yeah, thanks for, you know, thanks for clearing that up. It just seems like, yeah, so everyone hates each other. Good, good to know. Do you want to be a part of this? Like knowing that like it's one thing to be a co parent but like choosing to be a part of this show. Don't think Jesse's going to go anywhere unless he's fired.

[Michelle]

Like I struggle with that. I think yes. Because it's like, look at what I went through season one and two. Like it's only, only uphill from now. Right. It's gotta be Like, I'm like, what else? Like, I had the most difficult two, three years of my life, and now I'm finally got out of that situation. I now have a healthy relationship. My daughter is growing up. Like, they are still my friends, you know, some of my best friends.

[Nick Viall]

And so it does seem like maybe part of the positive turn seems to be what you referenced earlier is, like, your ability to no longer allow him to, like, get to you, because it really seemed like. And I. It makes sense, right? You go, you're married for someone for a long time, you have a kid with them, fine, you finally choose to leave. But that, like, I'm. I need to respond to this person. We have a kid together. That guilt of, like, allowing this person to, like, take up so much of your energy.

[Nelly]

We kind of see that with Jackson, Britney this season where he just constantly texts her and she. She responds and she, you know, I.

[Michelle]

Know Brittany's always like. I always say she's one year behind me, and I'm like, just learn from me. And I was texting her the other day. I'm like, don't engage. Don't respond. Like, yeah, but you have to go through that. And I think most divorced people, especially with kids, do have that, like, I don't know what you call it, like.

[Nelly]

That kind of path where you have to kind of go through all that. Yeah, that makes sense. So you. You see yourself continuing on this show and kind of just drawing the boundary with Jesse, not letting him get to you, still being able to hang out with friends, support your family.

[Michelle]

I think so, yeah. Yeah.

[Nick Viall]

Tom mentioned that we might see a softer side of Jesse in season two. And regardless of what we see, I'm curious, Based off our conversation today, I'm assuming you. You don't think we should believe any of it.

[Michelle]

It's hard because even now, like, we're. He's shifted now. The night before the reunion, he decided to change. And so he sent an email to my lawyer. So I have a lawyer. He does it. And so I've. My lawyer has gone back and forth with Jesse for months and months. It's cost me so much money. He's been so unreasonable. And the night before the reunion, I don't. He just, like, was like, I'm tired of fighting. I just want to move forward for our mental health settle so we could get divorced. And he went on watch what happens live. And he's like, like, Michelle and I are good. And all of his answers were not sincere or the truth. And that's my frustration. I'M like, could you answer one question and just say the truth?

[Nelly]

Do you kind of think it's because y' all aren't filming right now? You know, like, he, like, performs.

[Michelle]

We're better because we don't talk. Like, there is no talking anymore. The way the schedule is. It's like, I drop off Isabella at school, he picks her up so we don't have to see each other right now. And he knew all of this was coming up. I don't know. I do think he finally, at least he wants to move forward with the divorce because that was, like, another thing that was just dragging and making my life very complicated. But it just, like, I think everything, again, is very strategic for him to go on, watch what happens live and say, we're good because he decided that we're now good. And I'm like, it does. Life doesn't work that way. You've been treating me like shit every single day. Like it's a process.

[Nick Viall]

Wow. Well, Michelle, I appreciate you coming on. I'm sorry you're going through this. I mean, I guess why don't you leave us with a little bit of advice? There's a lot of people out there, I'm sure, sadly, going through what you've gone through, and it sounds like you've had to learn some tough lessons. But if there are any mothers or even husbands out there who listen to you and relate to you with what you're going through, what are some things that you wish you would have done differently to spare yourself some of the mental anguish you've gone through? True.

[Michelle]

Oh, so many. First of all, you know, your gut is usually right about a lot of things. So it's like, if you really are done. Not that I'm encouraging divorce, but, like, I don't think it's good to be married and then wait till the child is 10 or 15 years old to do it. I think it's better to do it when they're younger because, like, even Isabella, like, this is her new normal. She doesn't even remember us together. I think that's really good for children. If you're even considering getting divorced, having somebody do some financial paperwork in the event that if you do get divorced, that everything's okay and you're taken care of. I did it the hard way, and I wish somebody told me that because it would have changed a lot of things. Just being responsible, asking questions. Like, reach out to a lawyer. Ask them questions.

[Nelly]

Is he gonna pay you child support?

[Michelle]

No. So he. We were business partners, and we split all of the commissions, meaning we technically made the same income, which I think he did that on purpose because I didn't work the last couple years and he still was splitting the commission so he doesn't have to pay me a cent. So that's. That's that.

[Nick Viall]

All right.

[Nelly]

Well, you should be very proud of yourself for the place that you're at now versus the place that you were at a few years ago. You. You really are, I think, to a lot of women, listening and inspiration. And I'm. I'm very proud of you. I know I just met you, but going through what you went through, losing your mom, having your ex husband terrorize you, knowing you went through that, you. You should be very proud of yourself, of where you are now.

[Michelle]

Thank you.

[Nelly]

You're welcome.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nelly]

Thank you for coming on.

[Nick Viall]

Oh, well, where can people find you, by the way?

[Michelle]

Plug Instagram. Michelle Sunnye.

[Nick Viall]

Okay.

[Nelly]

Yeah, we'll put it in our box.

[Nick Viall]

All right. Michelle, I appreciate you coming on. Thanks for being so vulnerable and sharing. You were great and I think a lot of people will appreciate you sharing your story.

[Michelle]

Okay. And that's it. I'm not talking about him anymore because that was very Jesse heavy. Yeah. Foreign.

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[Nick Viall]

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