E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Viall Files – Episode E939: Ask Nick - Revenge Dating

Release Date: May 26, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode E939 of The Viall Files, host Nick Viall addresses listeners’ personal dilemmas surrounding dating and relationships. This episode features two callers seeking advice: Anna grapples with a malicious smear campaign from her ex-fiancé, while Melissa contemplates her undateable status as she approaches her 40th birthday. Throughout the episode, Nick provides insightful guidance, drawing from his experiences and expertise to help listeners navigate complex emotional landscapes.

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Caller 1: Anna’s Struggle with Revenge Dating

Background

Anna, a 32-year-old woman, calls in distressed after discovering her ex-fiancé's infidelity and the subsequent smear campaign he initiated against her. She reveals that two months ago, she uncovered evidence of her fiancé cheating in a manner she deemed dishonorable. Her ex-fiancé has been spreading false claims that Anna fabricated the cheating allegations due to being bipolar, a condition Anna denies.

Discovery of Infidelity

Anna explains how she stumbled upon the betrayal: “I was making our wedding invitations… and I came across a screen recording. So then I started looking for more and found a lot more” (03:04). The recordings revealed her fiancé’s inappropriate communications and interactions with his college roommate and his wife.

Smear Campaign Details

Her ex-fiancé publicly discredited her by labeling her as bipolar, leading her friends and family to distance themselves. Anna states, “he has told all of his friends and family that I made it all up because I'm bipolar, which I'm not” (02:17).

Family Dynamics and Confrontation

Seeking support, Anna reached out to her fiancé’s sister, which led to temporary shelter but resulted in strained interactions upon her fiancé’s return. She discovered messages where he threatened legal action over the possession of incriminating videos: “he said that he would sue me for revenge porn” (07:17).

Nick’s Advice

Nick empathizes with Anna’s pain and advises her to prioritize her healing over seeking vindication. He emphasizes that engaging in retaliation, such as distributing the videos, would only perpetuate her suffering. Instead, he encourages her to:

• Focus on Healing: “You're still very much, like, healing and hurting right now. Right.” (07:38)

• Letting Go: “Your energy right now is being channeled on being right and convincing people that you're not crazy and you're not wrong.” (07:42)

• Protecting Herself: “Delete those videos… they put you in a vulnerable position” (15:28)

Nick concludes by reassuring Anna that moving forward and distancing herself from the negativity will ultimately benefit her emotional well-being.

Notable Quotes

• “I just had to punch the face, now they're kicking you in the groin.” (06:33)

• “Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?” (07:48)

• “It's not your problem anymore, you just have to have faith that karma will work itself out.” (08:01)

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Caller 2: Melissa’s Journey to Overcome Being Undateable

Background

Melissa, a 38-year-old mother of two, reaches out feeling concerned about her ability to find a long-term partner. Despite her efforts, she struggles to meet men who share her desire for a serious relationship and the intention to have more children.

Challenges in the Dating Pool

Melissa describes her dating landscape: “men my age either are looking for something not serious or they have already had the family” (22:07). She feels caught between the desire for companionship and the frustration of not finding compatible partners who align with her life goals.

Self-Awareness and Therapy

As a therapist herself, Melissa is acutely aware of the dynamics at play. She acknowledges her tendencies to seek validation and reflects on how past relationships have influenced her current fears: “I have to protect myself from that vulnerability” (73:56).

Previous Marriage Trauma

Melissa shares her painful experience from a previous marriage that ended due to her husband's infidelity and declaration of love for someone else. This history has left her wary of new relationships and hesitant to engage deeply out of fear of repeating past mistakes.

Nick’s Advice

Nick offers Melissa comprehensive advice aimed at rebuilding her self-esteem and reshaping her approach to dating:

• Embrace Independence: “Embrace being this independent woman and really see the value in that” (52:52)

• Be Patient: “You have to stay patient and perhaps some time will go by and you can feel pretty good” (55:48)

• Focus on Self-Love: “The better you are at loving yourself… will help you attract healthier relationships” (84:12)

• Expand Dating Pool: Suggests Melissa consider dating older men who may be more aligned with her relationship goals and possess the maturity she seeks.

• Letting Go of Ego-Driven Thoughts: Encourages Melissa to move past self-blaming thoughts and focus on her growth and self-worth.

Notable Quotes

• “Yes, you're not looking for someone, you know, you're looking for someone…” (26:00)

• “You're not marrying these guys, right?” (49:54)

• “You have a lot going for you, so keep doing it.” (67:05)

• “There are people in your position, a lot of women specifically, and a ton of lonely men out there.” (64:32)

Progress and Growth

Melissa discusses the steps she has taken towards healing, such as solo travel and engaging in self-care routines. Despite these efforts, she expresses concern over not feeling the desired progress: “I don't know what that feels like” (73:09). Nick reinforces the notion that healing is a gradual process and commends her for seeking help and making strides towards self-improvement.

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Conclusion

In this episode, Nick Viall provides compassionate and practical advice to listeners grappling with complex relationship issues. Through Anna and Melissa’s stories, he underscores the importance of focusing on personal healing, setting healthy boundaries, and maintaining patience in the pursuit of meaningful connections. The episode serves as a testament to the challenges many face in the dating world and offers valuable insights into overcoming emotional obstacles to achieve happiness and fulfillment.

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Key Takeaways

• Prioritize Healing: Focus on personal growth and emotional well-being over retaliation or proving others wrong.

• Embrace Independence: Developing self-love and independence can lead to healthier and more fulfilling relationships.

• Be Patient: Finding the right partner takes time; rushing can lead to settling for less than desired.

• Set Healthy Boundaries: Recognize and address patterns that may be detrimental to building healthy relationships.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. Anna: “I found out he was cheating on me in a really gross way… he told all of his friends and family that I made it all up because I'm bipolar, which I'm not.” (02:17)

2. Nick: “Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?” (07:48)

3. Anna: “He told me about how they slept together before we met, but he lied about the timeline.” (04:15)

4. Nick: “Your energy right now is being channeled on being right and convincing people that you're not crazy and you're not wrong.” (07:42)

5. Melissa: “I feel like I'm doing everything right in every other aspect of my life.” (58:24)

6. Nick: “Embrace being this independent woman and really see the value in that.” (52:52)

7. Melissa: “I have to protect myself from that vulnerability that comes from meeting someone I might really like.” (86:36)

8. Nick: “You have a lot going for you, so keep doing it.” (67:05)

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Note: All timestamps correspond to minutes and seconds within the episode transcript.

Transcript

[Nick]

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[Anna]

Hi, I'm good. How are you?

[Nick]

Good. What's your name?

[Anna]

Anna. And I'm 32.

[Nick]

How can I help Anna?

[Anna]

How would you like hearing my name from a smear campaign from my ex fiance?

[Nick]

Oh wow. Okay. Describe this smear campaign to like what level are you being smeared?

[Anna]

It is pretty bad. So I found out he was cheating on me in a really gross way in my opinion about two months ago. And he has told all of his friends and family that I made it all up because I'm bipolar, which I'm not. So they've all completely dropped me. Yeah.

[Nick]

And this is your ex fiance?

[Anna]

Yeah. We're supposed to get married in July.

[Nick]

Okay, well, I am very sorry to hear that. When. When did you find out about all this?

[Anna]

Late February.

[Nick]

Okay. So you're still very much hurting? Probably not. Are you. Are you even on the path to healing? Are you still just in the hurting stage?

[Anna]

I am. I feel a little bit better about everything. I am really glad I found out before we got married, because that makes it a lot easier.

[Nick]

How'd you find out?

[Anna]

I was actually making our wedding invitations, and he had signed on to his Google Drive on my computer so I could access the photos that we took in the UK last summer, and I came across a screen recording. So then I started looking for more and found a lot more.

[Nick]

Screen recording of what?

[Anna]

It was his college roommate and his wife engaged in intercourse.

[Nick]

He had a video of his college roommate and his college roommate's wife having sex?

[Anna]

Yes.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Anna]

In a lot of different ways. So they would just send him the. They would basically perform for him and he would send messages back.

[Nick]

Oh, my God. And then when you dug more, what else did you find?

[Anna]

That they had all slept together, like, five days before we met. So there. It's been an ongoing type of relationship. Yeah.

[Nick]

Do you know if he physically cheated?

[Anna]

He says he didn't.

[Nick]

Okay, but what do you believe?

[Anna]

Yeah, exactly.

[Nick]

Did you find anything else?

[Anna]

There have been other things in the past that I kind of let go, but everything that I've ever found out is from me finding out. He's never offered up anything, so.

[Nick]

So when you caught him with these videos, did he admit to any of that? Or, like, what was his explanation when you.

[Anna]

He did. Yeah.

[Nick]

What do you say?

[Anna]

He told me about how they slept together before we met, but he lied about the timeline. He said it was, like, months before we met, but it was actually like a few days before we did, which that doesn't matter. It's before we met, so it's fine. But then he did admit to sending videos back to them and receiving videos from each of them separately, which he has then since taken back. So he said that that never happened now, and that's basically it. So he admitted more than I'd have before I ended things than he is now.

[Nick]

Okay, wow. So you confronted him? He admitted to some stuff. And then. And then what happened after that?

[Anna]

I called his sister the next day. I was really close with all of his family. I spent a lot of time with all of them because he wouldn't leave me Alone. He just kept kind of crying and being sad and, you know, trying to guilt me into moving forward. And I needed space to. To think about it. And so I called his sister, and she was kind of like. I gave her bare minimum details, but she said I could come stay with her. And I told him, hey, I'm going to go stay with your sister, or you need to go stay with your mom. And so those are your two options. So then he left to go stay with his mom.

[Nick]

Okay. And did you communicate with his sister much longer after that?

[Anna]

I was, but as soon as he got back, it started getting really weird. Like, weird communication from his whole family. And so I was kind of wondering what was going on and what he had actually told them. And so he came back to figure out the least stuff with us with his mom a few days later, and his mom was acting really weird towards me, and so he ended up staying with me that night and a few nights after. So then when he was sleeping, I looked through his phone and found all the bipolar messaging that he was telling everybody.

[Nick]

Okay, all right, well, the videos that you found on his Google Drive, did. Did you save them?

[Anna]

I did. Yeah.

[Nick]

You did. Okay, you want to be very careful with that.

[Anna]

Yeah, I. I won't do anything with those, but.

[Nick]

And so. Okay, so you found out about the bipolar and the smear campaign, and then what happened?

[Anna]

I just kept asking him, like, what he had been telling everybody, and he wouldn't. He won't admit anything. He says that you would never say a bad word about me, that he told them all the truth, but I know that's not true, so I just. It's been very frustrating because he knows that I saw the messages too, and he just won't admit anything.

[Nick]

Have you said anything to his family?

[Anna]

Yes, I've tried, but I feel like they just think I'm crashing out.

[Nick]

So what did you say?

[Anna]

I told them that I'm not bipolar and that he has no. Like, he. He did cheat on me, and that they have no right to spread those rumors about me amongst their family. Like, because it's.

[Nick]

I mean, not that you would or should do anything with these videos, but did. Have you reminded them that, like, you know, I would never distribute this stuff because it's not mine to distribute, but I have these.

[Anna]

Yes, I have told them that I have proof. And he said that he would sue me for revenge porn.

[Nick]

So, yeah, I mean, which.

[Anna]

I wouldn't distribute them, but I'm like, hey, I.

[Nick]

Do you have the message of him saying, did he text you that?

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Well, him saying he would sue you for revenge porn is him acknowledging that these videos exist?

[Anna]

Yeah, it is. But is it even worth it?

[Nick]

Well, that's a whole different conversation. And we. We definitely want to get the answer is no, it's not worth it. For sure. You're still very much, like, healing and hurting right now. Right. And to be clear, this smear campaign, these things he's saying about you seems to be limited to his family and maybe his friends.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And in the grand scheme of things, like, who cares? I mean, I know you care right now, but it's just only going to hurt you most likely more to stay invested, you know? Like, right now, you have two choices, right? Assuming that you have moved on from this guy, you know, and like, you, you've decided, I don't want to work on it. He forgive him. You know, it was one thing for him to catch him doing this, then his response and his actions in terms of getting caught, arguably almost more hurtful, you know, to lie, to try to hurt you, to protect himself, knowing he's already hurt you, you know, is. Is. Is pretty sinister. So assuming that you are completely know that you can't get back together with this person and you've accepted that, which not even sure if you're 100% there. I don't know. I mean, it's still very raw. But assuming that's the case, then your two choices are to, one, try to convince people who I understand you've been very close with, you've built a relationship with, you were going to marry this man. But the reality is, like, if you're not getting back together with this person, this relationship with this family is also over. You know, like, forget about the cheating and the nastiness of this breakup and how you found out and just how unbelievable I'm sure it feels, even if it was cordial, you know, even if you guys just woke up one day and looked at each other and said, we're not compatible, you know, let's break up, and you both kind of, like, weirdly felt, like, relieved and cared about the other person. You would reach out to his family, you'd reach out to his sister. You guys would talk about, like, you know, you guys are sad and want to stay in touch, but eventually, and I don't know when that relationship would slowly go away. You know, it might go away when he meets someone else, or it might go away when you meet someone else, but eventually, you know, your. Your next person, and who knows when that person will Reveal itself. Could be years from now, I don't know, could be next week. They're. They're not going to love the fact that you're like, still besties with your ex fiance's family. You know what I'm saying? And so right now it's just, it's very hard because, like, you know, you don't want to break up with this family either because, like, you know, you care about them and you. There's a relationship and that's just hard to let go. And then your e of. I'm sure it's triggered, you know, because like, he hurt you and now he's hurting you again because the people you cared about and his opinions, who you respect have, you know, you're afraid. Think a certain way about you. You just have to remember more than anything. And I hope this helps you out. This is, you know, you know, you've heard me say, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? Right? Like, you know, you're right here. You know, you caught this guy. You know he's lying. You know, he did a fucked up thing. And even if he wasn't convincing his family that you're bipolar, you know, you would still want them to empathize with your pain. You would still want them to take your side. You would still want them to hold their son or brother accountable, right? And that's fair. And however close you are with his family, they're not your family. They're his family. You know, and at the end of the day, maybe they do believe you. You know what I'm saying? Maybe it's just like, well, whether we believe you or not, he is our brother. We're not going to like, disown him over this. Like, you guys aren't together. So, you know, it's like, I think we just need to, like, slowly let go, you know, and you're here. It just feels wrong. You know, it feels again like you already got to punch the face, now they're kicking you in the groin. You know, it's like, it's like this is. It just doesn't feel right or fair. And it's not. It is not right or fair. But your energy right now is not being channeled on healing. Your. Your energy right now is being channeled on being right and convincing people that you're not crazy and you're not wrong. But the reality is, if you're not going to get back together with this man, these people will just not be a part of your life going forward at Some point, they will be a distant memory. They just will, you know. How old are you again?

[Anna]

32.

[Nick]

Okay. Yeah. I mean, you're pretty young. Yeah, it seems crazy, but, like, five years from now, his sister will, you know, someone who's going to pop up in your memory photo book and you'll be like, oh, I wonder what she's doing. And it just. It's hard to. It's hard to swallow that now.

[Anna]

They're also not letting me let it go, though, because there's, you know, the pages.

[Nick]

Familiar. Yeah.

[Anna]

Yeah. He was posted on one of those recently, and someone else that I don't know commented on it, saying that his engagement just ended and his fiance found him cheating. And all I did was comment on it and say, can you DM me? Because I'm wondering what the timeline of this is. And his sister commented on it, basically calling me a liar in front of everyone. So it's like, well, just like, leave me alone.

[Nick]

I would. I'm going to push back a little bit in that you're still playing a part of that, you know, and it's not. Again, it's not fair. It's not fair. It's just. And that's what you. That's the one thing you can allow yourself to acknowledge that this is not fair. But then you just have to accept that it's not fair and not try to make it fair for you, you know? Because, like, why. My question to you is, like, when I'm going to push back is why does the timeline matter? At this point?

[Anna]

It really doesn't, but it's just more. I sat in my apartment for two weeks by myself wondering, like, if I actually am crazy, because how. Why was it so easy for these people that I've known for so long to just completely switch over, you know, so it's just more validation because it. It made me feel crazy.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Anna]

How we're so quick to accept it.

[Nick]

Yeah. I can imagine that. But, like, it's his family.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, listen, I don't recommend you doing it, but I don't think it'd be end of the world if you screenshotted his message to you threatening to sue you for revenge porn and just sent it to his sister. And then, like, I'm not lying. I won't message you again. But, like, it's been hurtful enough to have my entire life blown up for things outside of my control, but then to have the person I thought I was going to marry not only, like, not hold himself accountable, but trying to ruin My reputation and say these very hurtful and false things about me is just, like, something I just never would have imagined. And you can say I don't have hard feelings towards you, but, like, I'm not lying and I wish you well and I. Goodbye. You know, you could do that, you know, and make sure that, like, it comes across as very, you know, normal. I mean, I'm sure you've been hurt, but have you. When you reached out to her, did you call, like, manic or anything like that? Because, like, if you're dealing with someone who's bipolar, I mean, it's intense.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And, I mean, I was very upset for a day, but I feel like it's valid.

[Nick]

Yeah, no, for sure. But yeah, I mean, short of that, like. I mean, I don't think that would be the end of the world. That would be, you know, technically unnecessary, slightly petty, but, you know, that's not revenge porn by, like, he's. He's admitting that this video exists. Obviously, you should not save it. You should probably. You should delete it, by the way.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, because, like, it's just not good to have.

[Anna]

No.

[Nick]

For a variety of reasons, and it's just, like, it puts you in a. It puts you in a vulnerable position for him to use that against you. So I would definitely delete it. But that message about him admitting that those videos exist and him threatening to sue you is. To me, that sounds like an admission of guilt.

[Anna]

Yeah, I just. Yeah, I won't. I'll just get over it.

[Nick]

Yeah, no, it's. Listen, it sucks, you know, you're just. I don't know, when. When stuff like this happens, it's just, you know, for me, I just got. I often would feel stuck, you know, the. I can't believe this happened to me. This kind of, like, just. It's very easy in these times that you're dealing with, to make a bad situation worse by pitting yourself. It feels unfair, but you'll get through this. And I know, like, this is such a silly, you know, probably the last thing you want to hear, but, like. And I know you know this, but, like, thank God, you know. You know, now.

[Anna]

Yeah. That makes it a lot easier. A lot easier.

[Nick]

I mean, so much easier. Yeah. It could have been so much. It really could have been so much worse.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, after you have a kid, you know.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

It just. It's a real blessing. But I'm really sorry you're going through this.

[Anna]

Thank you.

[Nick]

Are you talking to anyone? Therapy? Are you surrounding yourself with friends and family.

[Anna]

Yes, my family lives in a different state, but yeah, all my friends have been great and I'm in therapy, too.

[Nick]

Yeah, that's good. The best revenge. Again, this is going to sound like cliche and people have said this, but really is just living well, you know, because the truth is, like, clearly he's got something going on and he's gonna. He's spiraling. And for him to make up this type of lie is him continuing to spiral and him not facing the reality of his life and his situation and the fact that he got caught or what this means. I mean, like, he's sending videos individually to his old roommate and his wife. I mean, that sounds like a very kinky, weird, you know, since situation. And he probably feels a lot of shame and embarrassment for getting caught. And he's very nervous about, like, the world finding out. This is like, a little deeper than him just like, you know, Googling some only fans model and writing her and like, sending her videos. This is like, this is a little deeper than that. And he's feeling a lot of embarrassment and shame, which is just a guess where this, like, reaction is coming from. You know, it's fight or flight and he's fighting.

[Anna]

Yeah, I would be embarrassed, too.

[Nick]

Yeah. But it's not your problem anymore, you know, and you just have to have faith that karma will work itself out. But, like, the more you invest in this relationship, in this person, in this family, the more it's just going to hurt you and the longer it'll take for you to heal. And it sounds so unfair because it is, but it's. And it's really annoying, but it's definitely the best approach.

[Anna]

I agree.

[Nick]

All right, well, I'm sorry you're going through this. I'd love an update in the future, just kind of how you're doing, you know, like, when people find themselves in the situation you're in, it really feels like, like you can't see the forest or the trees and you can't see the silver lining. You seem to be in a fairly decent headspace, all things considered. But, you know, would love to connect with you when you are really, truly feeling grateful that this happened, as opposed to knowing that someday you will feel grateful that this happened. And I'd love to connect with you and get an update from you when that. When that happens.

[Anna]

Okay.

[Nick]

All right. For sure.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Nick]

All right, well, take care.

[Anna]

Thanks so much.

[Nick]

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[Unknown]

Hi, my name is Melissa. I am 38 years old, and I am wondering if I am undateable.

[Nick]

No, you're not. All right, see you later. I'm just kidding. Why. Why is that a. A thought that is percolating up in your head?

[Unknown]

So like I said, I'm 38 years old. I'm never married, don't have kids, but I still want that. And I'm just struggling to find someone in my dating pool who, like, is looking for what I'm looking for.

[Nick]

Who's in your dating. What's what described to me your dating pool.

[Unknown]

I think that's my problem, is I don't know who's in my dating pool. I find that men my age either are looking for something not serious or they have already had the family or maybe have the marriage already, and they're not looking to have that right now. That's not a priority for them. And so I don't really know who wants to date me. Yeah, like, I know I have a lot of great qualities that I bring to the table, but I don't. I think once people know what my intentions are and I'm very clear about what I want in a relationship, what my goals are, I find that it kind of leads nowhere.

[Nick]

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, how early in when you're dating do you bring up, like, your relationship goals?

[Unknown]

I guess pretty early on. Just because I think it's important to be transparent about what I'm looking for. I don't feel like I'm in a position to waste time. I am pretty upfront about the fact that, like, my short term goals are to particularly have a kid in the near future, but I try not to, like, push that. I also want to, like, allow a real connection to develop first before I'm even having that conversation. So I don't know.

[Nick]

Have you frozen your eggs?

[Unknown]

I did.

[Nick]

You did?

[Melissa]

Okay, yeah.

[Nick]

Well, that's good because hopefully that just will, like, allow you to extend your timeline a little bit and maybe take a little bit of pressure off yourself.

[Unknown]

Yeah. You know, I. I did it. I was in a relationship at the time when I did it. And the reason why that relationship ended was because he was not ready to have kids.

[Nick]

How old is he?

[Unknown]

35. And that's just kind of what I'm finding. And I don't know if it's because, like, who I'm choosing. I don't know if it's like, the area that I live in where there's just like, that seems to just not be something that a lot of people are looking for or if they wanted that they already found it somewhere else.

[Nick]

Yeah. Are you in a city, a more rural area?

[Unknown]

I'm not in a rural area. I would say I'm about an hour outside of a big city. But there is, like, a lot that goes on in this area. I go out a lot. Like, I'm. I socialize. I. I'm on the apps. Like, I. I put myself out there socially and I don't have problems meeting people, but it's. Most of the guys that I'm interested are in are like, I'm looking for something casual right now, or I'm not really looking to have more kids in the near future.

[Nick]

And who are the guys you're interested in? Like, do you. When you look at the pool of men that either you match with, go on dates with, what are, what, what similarities or patterns are you noticing other than their lack of interest in maybe having kids or getting into something serious?

[Unknown]

I don't know. I think I've always kind of dated guys that are a little younger than me.

[Nick]

Okay. Why?

[Unknown]

I don't know. Maybe because I look young, so I attract guys that are a little younger than me.

[Nick]

You don't attract older men? Because older men, like, sometimes older men like young people. That sounds weird, creepy, but.

[Unknown]

No, it's not. It's not.

[Nick]

But I guess that's what I'm saying. It's just like, is it, is it because. Is it that? Or is it like, does it make you feel good to be able to attract younger men.

[Unknown]

I mean, yeah, it's like a confidence boost that like a younger guy would be.

[Nick]

There's nothing wrong with that. I'm just like, you know.

[Unknown]

No, but I also don't think that's like necessarily why I'm choosing the guys I choose. I think there's something that, you know, I find interesting about them. It's not so much a physical appearance thing for me as it is, you know, is this person emotionally aware? Can they have real conversations about deep things? And so I think like the types of guys I date, I don't have like, there's not a lot in common with them. Like, I had this conversation with my friends last weekend. Like, if you like put my boyfriends all together and line them up, you wouldn't see much in common with them. So I don't, I don't know.

[Nick]

See, I would bet that's not true. I'd be willing to bet there's a lot of things, especially visually or just on the surface they seem very, very different. But there's got to be some kind of similarities, you know, there's got to be. And maybe the similarities is their age or their lack of knowing what they want in their life. I just will, you know, like men, you know, we all hear about like the biological clock thing. Men are, most men are at least aware of it, you know, I think in life, I think especially men, but people in general, it's just like we don't really know what we want until it's right in front of our face sometimes. And then, you know, today's dating climate is even more challenging before because like, everyone's kind of non committal and marriage, you know, it's like, it's just not what it used to be in a sense. Like, you know, there's, you know, not that it was a, necessarily a great thing back in the day where like divorce wasn't really even a socially acceptable thing that did drive people to deal with their shit better and work on things and not check out now. It also caused a lot of like infidelity behind the scenes. And it was a lot of like, secrets. But now it's just like the laws being what they are and you know, it's just like the marriage laws are, are still antiquated. They haven't evolved with the time. And then, you know, there's all these things in terms of like, well, why would I get married if all it does is like put me in some sort of shitty contract? So, you know, and then it's just like, you know, if. If you're dating a young, you know, you. Let's say you're 38. So you meet a 34 year old, which from an age standpoint, completely like whatever normal, appropriate, you know, use. You know, you look young, he looks his age or whatever, but you know, he's gonna be like, I'm not ready today to have kids. And even if I want to have kids in the future, I mean, like, I. I had dated older women, you know, in my 30s, women who had kids. And I was always someone who's like, I know I want to have kids, right? I was. That was always a constant for me. That was never a doubt. I was, especially in my 30s, I was very anxious. I was ready to be a father. That being said, at the time in which I was dating there, I was also a guy who was a year or two coming off being the bachelor. I was living in Los Angeles. I was out there hustling. I was doing just fine financially. It wasn't about that. But I didn't know what the future held for me. I was making money today, but I was like, is this going to be available to me a year from now? And so my future was very uncertain, you know, even though my knowledge of wanting to be a dad was very clear. So then when I was dating older women who, like, had kids and I was like, who I thought maybe wanted to have more kids was more like, I just feel like if I say yes to this relationship, we immediately have to start talking about, like, family planning. It just kind of felt weird and heavy a little bit. Fair or not, that was just a thought process that went in my head thinking about, like, how's this gonna work? You know, it kind of felt a bit.

[Unknown]

Yeah, no, I totally get it. And I think, like, what's hard is that I never thought I would be in this place. You know, I've always been in relationships and been, you know, someone who thought that, like, one of those relationships would end in marriage. And it just didn't work out, you know, the way I planned. So I don't. I hate that, like, I'm in this position where I have to be like, hi, nice to meet you. Do you want to have kids in the next three to five years? Like, I don't want it to be that way, but, like, I have made the choice to, like, prioritize this, so.

[Nick]

And I'm glad that you have stuck to your guns there, and I'm glad that you are clear in terms of what you want for yourself. And I think that will serve you well. Even though right now it almost feels like your, your confidence in knowing what you want almost gets in the way of you finding someone. But you're not looking for somebody, you know, you're looking for.

[Unknown]

Yeah. You know, very specific about what I want. And like, I keep saying I don't want like a sperm donor, and that's not what I'm looking for. If that were the case, I could have had a kid a long time ago. Like, not a problem.

[Nick]

But is that something you're open to, just out of curiosity?

[Unknown]

I am, but I can't afford it. Like I, I couldn't afford it living where I live. I can barely take care of myself right now. Well, that's not true. I, I, I see it very hard up.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You know.

[Nick]

Yeah. Like, yeah, it's a very privileged thing for people.

[Unknown]

It is, it is. So would I do it at some point? Like, I've considered it. Obviously when I froze my eggs, I was like, there's a possibility that I had the conversation with my boyfriend at the time, like, would you make embryos with me? And he didn't want to. And so I was like, all right, well, I guess, you know, then I'm really just gonna have to like wing this, you know, and hope that some, something works out along the way. But I don't know, I just.

[Nick]

So when was the last time you dated someone like 10 years older than you?

[Unknown]

Okay, so actually I went on a date recently with a guy who's 50.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Unknown]

And he's like super nice and just a gentleman. I think in a way that is different than the guys that are normally in the dating pool who really just, just don't make any effort to make you feel special or any of that. So he's been really lovely, but he's also 50 years old and divorced and has like four kids. And I'm like at the point where I know I have to have the conversation about what I want and whether that's something he's open to in order to kind of determine whether it's worth me continuing to see him. But I hate to like put that pressure on somebody because I also understand that he'll live. Yeah, I know.

[Nick]

You know, the short and simple answer, which sucks and it's not, probably not very helpful, is you know, just to continue to be patient, you know, and understand that like you, you, the, the most important thing for you to do is to try to like, get rid of these self limiting beliefs. This, Am I undateable stuff. You know, what's with me? You know, where did it go wrong? I think we can look in the mirror, ask ourselves tough questions. Ask what, what is the thing that I can control? What are the things that I could work on without going 10 steps further and feeling sorry for yourself and being like, what's wrong with me? You know, like there's things wrong with all of us. There's. And we got to look at things being wrong with us, quote unquote, as a positive because that gives us control. It gives us control over fixing, fixing things. Now I'm, I'm, I have a toxic ability to look for things that are wrong so that I can fix things that are wrong because I, I'd rather feel like I'm in control of a situation rather than accepting that things are outside of my control. Right. So like you don't want to do that, but you also don't want to sit there and pity yourself and just talk negatively about yourself and ask and put these self limiting beliefs in your head, like, what's the point? Is it harder for you? Yeah. Like is it, does it get harder as you get older with your biological clock and feeling the pressure and, and not knowing, should I date younger men? Men my age, older men, they all, all three options, you know what I'm saying? There's no. Right now. It feels like there's flaws with all of these possibilities. Right. You're getting the 45, 50 year old man who has kids or clearly doesn't want kids because he hasn't had them yet and nothing's changed. 35 year old men these days seem like 25 year old men, you know, basically. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And I think it's.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So I think it's a couple things. Like you've probably heard me say this before. Regardless of age, I think it's very important for women who are very serious about settling down or having kids to not fuck with men who clearly don't know what they want to be when they grow up, so to speak. You know.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Nick]

When they, if they talk negatively about their job, you know, if they are dreamers about like their future, you know, they are entrepreneurial, but it's more of a dream than a reality. That's not.

[Unknown]

I know. I, trust me, I've weeded through all of them, Nick. And like the reality is I, I've done so much work on myself. I have learned to like really build, feel more confident in myself over these last few years than I ever did. And I'm so proud of so Many things in my life and I'm like, the people who know me are like, you know, you have it all together. Like why, why can't you just find a man? You know, like I don't understand why you're still single, you know, and so that sucks because I don't know, I'm like, is it me? Am I like picking the wrong people or I'm just not doing the right things to like keep these relationships going? What is it?

[Nick]

Probably something, one or two things that you are doing that you could probably tweak or change. I don't, you know, I haven't really figured that out. Talking to you. Yeah, I mean this 50 year old man, you know, four kids, you went out with them? Yeah, yeah. I don't think immediately, you know, also the challenge for you is it's like there's a good chance your guy won't think he wants the things that he wants when he meets you, if that makes sense. You know, when I met that, when I met Natalie, I got to a point where I was like, I still want to have kids, but fuck marriage. I don't know if I really believed that, you know, it wasn't like an absolute non negotiable skeptical of it. I was just like, what's the point? I don't know, like I really don't give a shit. It was more like if I meet someone who really wants to do it, I guess I'd be open to it, but I don't think I'm looking for that type of thing.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, and so that, and that's honestly probably not even helpful because like that's like.

[Unknown]

No it's not. And no offense, you married a 25 year old, you know, so like that, that's what I'm up against, you know, because now I'm competing with 25 year olds out here. I know that I bring things to the table that 25 year olds don't in terms of like I'm self sufficient, I'm independent, I have a great job, like I don't need anybody to take care of me, but I want somebody who like just wants to do things for me. I'm so used to like my whole life having to take care of myself, which is why I'm so good at being so independent. But I just want someone who wants to take care of me.

[Nick]

No, it makes a lot of sense. When are you supposed to see this 50 year old man again?

[Unknown]

So he is away right now, he went to Europe and he's been like Sending me pictures and like saying, I wish you could see this. And just again, like, really nice, sweet stuff. So I am going, I'm sure to hear from him once he gets back. And funny enough, since I've written into you, I've. I've had a few men kind of come along. I think they come in like spurts.

[Nick]

Sure.

[Unknown]

So I convinced my friend to go to like a singles event with me recently. And I mean, it was terrible in that it was 95% women and the men that were there were just not great. Which was just a reinforcement of my feeling that, that there's like nothing in the dating pool for me. But there was one guy who I had recognized. Like, I've definitely seen him around before and we started talking and again, like, my gut instinct is like, no, you, you don't like this guy. But he was like, very nice. And I got along well with him. And at the end of the night I was like, you know what, let's exchange numbers, let's. And he asked me out. And so I'm. I am going out with him and he's 41, never married, doesn't have kids, seems to want what I want. I just don't know if I. I don't know if this is like who I'm looking for, you know, I feel like I'm lowering my standard.

[Nick]

Tell me why.

[Unknown]

I don't know, it feels so shallow. I just like, I'm not like attracted to him.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Unknown]

And like, that's not always super important to me. But I don't know, I just like get like a kind of ick a little. I hate it. I feel so shallow. But like.

[Nick]

Well, you know what I've learned about the ick is that every man is capable of giving it. And sometimes, you know, the tall, good looking ones mask it a little better and then you get to know them and, and you wake up.

[Unknown]

So that's why I want to give him a chance because I'm like, he seems like a nice enough guy, you know, And I just feel like there's like some similarities between us. So I am gonna like go out with him and give him a chance. But.

[Nick]

Well, I'm glad you're doing that. I. I think, I mean, probably the, you know, there's a good chance your person is someone that you. There will be a flaw. You see. You know, you're right. I married someone a lot younger than me. I had a lot of, you know, I saw a lot of flaws in that relationship early on. Like when I met Nally you know. You know, we've talked about this at nauseam, but it was like, you know, after the first week, and I was like, we're never gonna date. I just want to be very clear, this is never gonna happen. You know, and then it did. Right. So, you know.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Not saying it's the same scenario as yours. I'm just saying, like, as we get, you know, like the harder part, as we get older, we get more confident in what we know, what we want. And so I do remember dating in my 30s. And I remember, honestly, I said this to my therapist, I said this to close friends. And it was like, do I just have to pick someone and just have a kid with them? Because I don't know if I'm going to fall in love again because I'm not going to be 22 anymore and I'm not planning on going back on TV to have someone, like, fuck with my emotions so that I just, like, convince myself I'm falling in love. And so, and everyone I go out with seems fine. You know, Everyone seems fine and they're nice and beautiful and cool. And I like this about her and I like that about her and yada yada. But, like, everyone seemed fine. And then I met someone who I really company, I really enjoyed and was just like. Then I was like, but there's this huge flaw and like, she's a lot younger than me and I will never date her, you know, and, And I'm glad that you, you have to change something. You know, you have to say yes to things about, like that seem odd and get your. Set your ego aside. You're not, you're not guaranteeing to marry these people. You're basically saying no to your ego, your snapshot judgment of people, your projection of how you feel and things like that. I, it's. And I've had to tell myself this. It's just like your instant reaction to men and your initial attraction to various men hasn't gotten you anywhere. So the feeling of not settling by saying yes to a man you're excited about who you know nothing about also hasn't gotten you anywhere. And you're not looking for arm candy and you're not looking for a partner where all your friends go, you know, who, like, you know, instantly want to fuck them or something. You know, I'm get. You're looking for a man who wants to have children, who wants to be a good father and a good partner and take care of you. And, and, and if, if you want to make your friends jealous, so you know, we all want to make our friends jealous to a certain extent.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But like, you might have to change how you make them jealous. You know, it's going to be because you found someone that, you know five years from now when they're all complaining about their husbands, you're not. Even if his nose is a little crooked or something, or even if he's 510 and not 6 2.

[Unknown]

You know, we're 57 and balding. It's so hard. I know.

[Melissa]

And I need my.

[Nick]

There's a, you know, balding thing you could take care of nowadays these days. Or you can shave your head. 5 7, not much you can do about five.

[Unknown]

Much you could do. I know. And like, it's sad that he even said it to me. He's like. Like, I know that, like, most girls don't like to talk to me because I'm 5 7. I'm like, that's crazy because I don't think I'm really like that.

[Nick]

I mean. Yeah, you are.

[Unknown]

I don't know.

[Nick]

You're a human being. You are.

[Unknown]

Yeah, a little bit.

[Nick]

It's, you know, listen, I don't know.

[Unknown]

I don't rule anybody out because of, like, their height. I've dated guys that are like.

[Nick]

I mean, there's some. I don't know, there's some kind of biology. You know, we, at the end of the day are not. Not too many years removed from living in fucking caves. You see a man who's 57 and your biology tell tells you he can't protect me the way a 6, 5 monster can. And I need to be protected. You know, I don't, you know, like, there's that. I don't know. It is a reality, you know, it just is. You know, I'm not saying this guy's.

[Unknown]

Got a lot of empathy for the short guys too. Like, I, I have empathy.

[Nick]

There's a lot of. And I'm hearing you talk, and I really appreciate this call because there, there's a lot of people in your position. A lot of women specifically. There's also a ton of lonely men out there. I know, and it sucks. And I. And I sit here wishing. I don't know what I wish. I wish I could solve. Help solve the, the dating dilemma that's out there. I don't.

[Unknown]

I. I don't have to connect to people. And I have been in therapy for a long time. I'm also a therapist. Like, that's what I do by trade. So I'm very aware of, like, relationships and dynamics. I hear other people's stories. I have my own stories. You know, I, I think I'm pretty in tune with things. I, I do my best not to be pessimistic. It is something that I'm actively, constantly working towards because my like, default setting is to be a little pessimistic about things.

[Nick]

Well, that's because you're a realist, you know, and you're self aware and that, you know, you have done work on yourself. And you know, I'm, I'm not a therapist, but like talking to people about their problems and being self aware and trying to like lean on my past experiences to help people. Yes, it is a. You will. Oh, it's, it's in your, you know, because you see, you see the angles, you see the other side, you know, you see the reality and you hear, you know, as a therapist, right, like, you see people lie to themselves constantly and the, you see people tell themselves, so then you try to tell yourself, I'm not going to be that person who's just constantly bullshitting themselves.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Nick]

But sometimes that does get in the way. It really does. Like, you. Some you have to, like, you have to be. I think you have to be willing to be wrong. I think we've said this, but like, when I was dating Natalie and, and now I was like, I'm, I'm tired of this bullshit. And like we're just going back and forth and I'm just like, I can't, I can't fucking do it. I was too scared. And I called my friends, my friends who married us and, and they're one of the few people whose opinions I really trust. And my friend Andy's 10 years older than Charlene, you know, but they met when Charlene was like in her late 20s, early 30s, so like their age difference, you know, I was.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it seemed less important.

[Nick]

Seemed less important. And. Yeah, and I asked for their advice and they loved her. They love, they, they, they met Natalie the first weekend I met her. And I, you know, we were. It's our third day hanging out and Charlene, like, said to me, she's great. And I'm like, I know. And I'm like. And she's like, but she's too young. And I'm like, I know. And then like, fast forward. Sick. I don't know how many months later, I was like, I. I'm thinking about trying. And. And they were like, I don't think it should work. I don't think it'll work. And. And the truth is they were Their advice was right and it was sound, you know, like all, you know, if you disliked, if, if, if a friend said to you, like, what should I do? And you're trying to give them the most pragmatic, thoughtful advice or, you know, just playing the odds, it was like that this is a risky choice. But I ultimately got off the phone. I was just like, I just, I don't know, fuck it, I just got to see this through. Do you know?

[Unknown]

Yeah, you're like, I'm gonna do it anyway.

[Nick]

I'm just gonna do it. Because like, at that point I was just like, I, I, I've, I've dated a handful of women and I just, I'm so good at just looking for the flaw, you know, I'm, I'm so good at finding the reason it won't work. And I, so like, and I, but that I never tried with them, you know, and I thought to myself, well, I could have tried with them. And I know, listen, I wasn't like, sad. I didn't end up in any of them, but like, like, it did leave me with questions, you know, and here I was, you know, at this point, I wasn't like, I mean, I probably did, like, I was in love with Natalie, but I was just very confused about my feelings and, you know, and I, and I still felt like I.

[Unknown]

Still were talking yourself out of it because you're like, I can't be in love with this.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And so then I was just like, you know what? I'm just gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna find out. I'm just gonna fuck around and find out. And if we date for a year and we break up and it's messy and, and all my friends say, well, I fucking told you that's what happens when you date a 22 year old world, then I'll just, I'll deal with it, you know, And I'm not, you know, I know what I'm getting myself into, you know, I'm not, I'm not deluding myself to think that, like, you know, I'm not gonna go around. Even though I thought she was mature for her age, I wasn't gonna go around and like, try to like, you know, if, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. And I think there's gonna, that, that is kind of the mindset you're gonna have to, you know, your person is not gonna. I just, it's, it's at this point in your life, chances of, of a guy showing up at your door who Seems too good to be true. Isn't gonna present itself. And if he does, he's probably still not. It just won't show up right away because it's all. It's all. They're all flaws. So try saying yes to people who. At first, you know, it's.

[Unknown]

I know. I feel like, regardless, I have to settle in some way, either. It's like I settle for someone who. I don't necessarily feel, like that level of connection that I thought I'd feel.

[Nick]

With someone, or change the narrative. Stop calling it settling. You're not marrying these guys right. Yet, you know, no. And you are gonna have to accept things about people. That's love.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Nick]

You know, Right. Settling. When you say settling, there isn't. There is a implication about winning in there. In a way, there is a. Right. It's not. And you're not necessarily trying to win.

[Unknown]

I know. I always say that. I think other people view dating as, like, a race and. And the finish line is like, getting married. But that's really where it all starts. That's not where it ends, you know, and that's a misconception other people have that I don't think I do. At the same time, I guess, like, yeah, I. I kind of want to feel like.

[Nick]

I mean, for me, it's.

[Unknown]

I waited this long. Like, there's gonna be, like, a great prize at the end of this.

[Melissa]

For me.

[Nick]

Yeah. But that prize is happiness, you know, for me, I. I. When it comes to my relationship with Natalie, I don't know what. How people perceive our relationship. I hope generally, positively. But, like, like everyone else, everybody, it's far from perfect. We put a lot of work into our relationship. You know what I'm saying? For me, whether it was deciding to date her or, you know, throughout our relationship, you know, whenever any obstacle presented itself, the question I asked myself is, you know, the same question I often ask other people, which is, like, how does she make me feel overall? Not like, in this moment, you know, whatever, but how do I feel being with her? How does she make me feel? And. And it was always you. You know, she makes me feel loved. Even when I was the most upset with her and disconnected, it was like, I still feel like this person really cares about me and loves me and make, you know, and that's what I'm looking for. And it was. It was that. So I was looking for that happiness. Like, this person makes me feel happy, you know, if, you know, regardless of the names people could call me or call her or regardless of shit we had to work through and, and, and things we realized about each other as we got to know each other and things where it was like, yeah, you know, surprise, Natalie, like, this, this is the person you fell in love with six months ago. And ick. And, and vice versa. It was. But I feel, I love this. I feel the love. I love this person. It wasn't about, you know, like a lot of times when you're younger, it's just like, well, I don't know if I should accept this. You know, it's just more like this defiant. Like I was watching a show. This person every right to be upset, you know, and every right to be, you know, And I don't know if they're going to get back together or not. And I'm not saying they should or shouldn't, but like, you know, sometimes we're just like, this is it. You know, if you lie, if you do this, if I'm done. And it's. The reality is, as we get older, we get more complicated. Life becomes more complicated. We're far from, you know, and that's not an excuse to accept bad behavior or settle or make excuses. But to me, life isn't. It's like, how do people respond to adversity is such a measuring stick for me.

[Unknown]

I agree.

[Nick]

Because we can't predict the future. No one's perfect. Everyone fucks up, we fuck up. But how do we respond to that adversity? How do we move forward, even if it is like a big fuck up type of thing. And to me, that's way more important than like how someone presents themselves in the first six weeks of meeting them, you know, or how tall they are or what they look like or what their age is or, or things like that, you know, I mean, it's like when you, I mean, it's. It's like. I remember meeting Natalie and I don't know why I thought this, but I had such, this perception of her family. Her family is so much like mine in so many ways, you know, like. Which is complet. Imperfect and absolutely flawed, but they're great people. And there's a general closeness with her family despite. There's always some kind of internal conflict with her family, just like, you know, every other family. Yeah, but I just remember that I had this like, idea, you know.

[Unknown]

No, and it, it's good that you're able to like, see that and recognize it, you know. I can do that to some extent. You know, I think we all do. I think when you meet somebody, you like, get this initial perception of them that's either good or I don't know or not good. And, like, your future interactions with them are kind of based off that initial judgment you make of them in a way. You know, I think a lot of times that's what happens where, like, women are instantly, like, interested in a guy. Like, you're focusing on certain details that you know or that you think you know. And sometimes you can exaggerate the positives or exaggerate the negatives of a person.

[Nick]

So it's just like being on the Bachelor. I always tell people it's just like, at the end of the day, the Bachelorette or The Bachelor, they 99 of the time, they pick the person they're most physically attracted to, regardless of what they tell themselves or tell the audience or tell America. And it's not because they're more shallow than anyone else. It's because they are stuck and trapped in an environment where they can't trust anything. They have no support system. They have nothing. And the only thing they can trust is their eyes and the chemistry that they feel. And it's just like, I don't know any of these people, and I don't know who's being honest or sincere. And how can you be honest and sincere even in this environment? But what I do know, I think they're hot. And so I'm gonna stick with that, and I'm gonna hope for the best when. At the end, you know, and hope.

[Unknown]

That that builds that relationship and build out a physical attraction.

[Nick]

Exactly right. And that's no different than all of us in the dating world, where you trust your eyes. You kind of try to convince yourself that this person, you know, is the exception. The rule is these other areas. But you got to try to apply that thinking, you know, date people you are attracted to. I'm not saying you should go out there and start, you know, dating people you're not attracted to.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But, like, you have to be open to finding that initial reason to say no and pushing through that early on.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And allowing yourself to get to know people, which, again, you have to take breaks because you're going to get discouraged. And, like, you know, it's like there's just more, you know, you're. There's just 99 out of a hundred people like you shouldn't even be interested in, let alone have a future with.

[Unknown]

The ones that I'm interested in are just not the right one.

[Nick]

Yeah. Well, then. Yeah, because they're usually not. I mean.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I know. I just. I Feel like I should be beyond.

[Nick]

This because that's, that's, that's an ego thing, right? That's a, that's the, you've decided, you know, 20, I don't know what age that person is in your head, but like 23 year old, you had a plan for yourself and you're still holding on to that. That plan. Yeah, no, like, pisses you off.

[Unknown]

Yeah, that, yeah, plans change.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

No, and it, and then I like talk to my friends who are in their late 20s and I'm like, oh, your boyfriend's so great. How old is he? He's 38. I'm like, oh, well, there you go. The good 38 year olds, I guess, are dating 28 year olds, you know.

[Nick]

So maybe, maybe not. You know what I'm saying though. But like, you don't know how the.

[Unknown]

Relationship sucks and I don't know, but it just, it, it's frustrating. I guess again, I have to like, get past like those initial, like surface things that I'm saying, like, oh, that looks like somebody I want to be with when it's really not about how that person looks that's going to determine whether or not I want to be with them. Yeah.

[Nick]

And your 28 year old friends are like, these relationships, are they, are they about to settle down?

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah. They're all like in that phase, you know, so it's kind of annoying.

[Nick]

Yeah, it is. It is annoying. Not even kind of, it's totally annoying. And you have a right to be annoying, but you, you have to allow, you have, you have to try to get over that.

[Unknown]

I'm trying. I'm trying to not be bitter, Nick. I'm really trying. It's really hard.

[Nick]

I mean, and if you want to be a little bitter, be, be like, you know, like I always tell people, like, half of these friends are going to end up in divorce. Yeah, I know.

[Unknown]

At least I, I like to say I skipped my first divorce because I didn't.

[Nick]

I know I did. I skipped my first two.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad that I didn't marry the guy I thought I was gonna marry 10 years ago, you know, but at the same time I just, it sucks that like, I'm still alone, you know, And I feel like I'm doing everything right in like every other aspect of my life.

[Nick]

Life.

[Unknown]

So this is the one thing where I'm just not where I want to be.

[Nick]

I would just mix up your dating pool a little bit more.

[Unknown]

I only know I've been trying.

[Nick]

I'd get away from the slightly younger men. Not so you have to completely do it. But like. I know, I know because I think there's a ton of for like balding.

[Unknown]

Like overweight guys either, right?

[Nick]

Yeah, but they're, but there, there are going to be some.

[Unknown]

I'm sure they're very nice.

[Nick]

Yeah. But there's gonna be some not balding, not totally overweight, 40 some year old guys who just haven't found their, their person. You know and maybe, maybe some of these guys need a good woman in their lives to clean up their act. You know, I mean that, you know, it's, it's tough to like. I wish I could, I wish I could help some of these like lonely, lonely men who just need a, a reason to give a. About themselves and put them, you know, and, and, and get up and, and run a lap and eat healthier and, and if they, if they don't want to take pills or put cream on their head or get surgery or wear toupee or whatever, at least they shave their head. You know, the truth is like when, when I met Natalie I. There's a lot of parts of my life where still very much it was giving 25 year old guy.

[Unknown]

Well, I think that's why you're able to men. Like it's not that hard to date someone that's 10.

[Nick]

Well, I don't mean it like in a good way. I mean like I still had like base, you know, like my apartment looked like I needed a woman to like.

[Unknown]

No, that's the majority of men that I meet that are like around my age. You know, they, they need someone to take care of them a little bit or like mother them a little bit.

[Nick]

Yeah, I wasn't looking for a mother. But like we all men like to be taken care of, that's for sure. Sure. Yeah. But it's just like. Yeah. I don't know. It's like you, you know, you don't want to look for a total fixer upper because you know, but it's just like I feel like your perfect guys is going to be someone who's like probably a few years older than you. You and, and lost their way a little bit because they like yourself has, has struggled finding their person and.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And bringing you into their life. Like they, they're, they're not a total lost cause where they're like, they're looking for someone like you to just completely change them or fix their lives, but they just you know, instead of like washing their sheets every two months or inviting a girl to their Place where like there are no sheets on their bed because like, who gives a it they have a little more self respect.

[Unknown]

That's gonna be a minimum requirement, I think.

[Nick]

I mean, you know, I'm just saying men are, men are gross.

[Unknown]

They kind of are.

[Nick]

They are, you know, they just don't, they don't think about like that and if, and, and men who are mostly single gets kind of stuck and, you know, and they just get comfortable with being kind of like adult children. You got to not lose hope. You got to stay patient. Stop with those self limiting beliefs. Try to challenge yourself to like, just mix it up a little bit, you know, and then just try to enjoy the story. At least you froze, you know, like you've frozen your eggs. Part of your reason why you haven't like thought of doing this on your own is because you, you know, you don't need to yet embrace that, you know. And yeah, you know, I know this is all just kind of, I think some magic pill be like, oh, well, we know what you're doing wrong now go date. But a lot of it is just not making a frustrating situation worse by thinking there is no hope and no one. It's not attractive to be negative. It's not attractive to show up frustrated on a date or just to sound like you're just like, all right, start talking guy and convince me why we're not going to be. You know what I'm saying? And we've all shown up to dates like that before. I know I have. It's just like, why am I even fucking here? And the other person just thinks I'm a prick because I just have a negative attitude about this date and things like that. You, you know, when you feel that way, you just got to take some breaks.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nick]

All right. I feel like I wasn't as helpful.

[Unknown]

As I could be, but no, it's okay. You know, I, I wasn't sure what I was expecting in terms of advice. So, you know, I think sometimes it's just good to hear a different person's perspective. You know, I talked to my therapist about this yesterday. The fact that I was calling in and she was like, I think that's great that you're doing it. Like, there's no harm in just hearing what somebody else thinks about the situation. And maybe there's something you can point out that she hasn't been able to or something.

[Nick]

Yeah. What did she say?

[Unknown]

Like, you. She's kind of telling me that, you know, I have to, to try and be open to different Things that maybe initially don't feel like. I'm not like, jumping to like, talk to these guys, but doing it anyway, you know, and kind of pushing past that initial, like, reservation. She's just been really proud of me because I'm definitely like, pushing myself out of my comfort zone. It's big for me, you know.

[Nick]

Well, that's good. And the fact that you can recognize it's big for you is a sign that you haven't done much of it in the past. And if you can continue, continue down that path, something good's gonna happen. You know, it's always good to push ourselves out of our comfort zones as long as we're safe, because we just are. You know, it's like as we get older, again, like, that's why I always say as we get older, our circle of friends get smaller and. Right. You know, which is a good thing usually. But sometimes, again, we can get a little too, especially when we're single. Right. Like, you know, like, you're independent and, and by definition you are good at being selfish because you only have to worry about yourself, which is fine because you're single. But like, sometimes we can get in our ways. We can get a little too comfortable. We can a little. Again, that pessimistic person. We need to like, challenge ourselves to expand our comfort zone. You know, when we have a partner, when we have kids, we are forced, you know, like when, you know, now I'm learning now, rivers, you know, 14 months and it's like we're gonna start making friends with a bunch of strangers we would never talk to.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But now we have a daughter, we want her to make friends. So like, we are forced to get out of our comfort zone and, and engage with people that were like, I don't know if I would ever talk to this person, you know, and so.

[Unknown]

You know, I've been doing, I'm like going to these single events and like talking to other women and I'm like, hey, are you in the same boat as me where like, you're trying to meet people and you're not sure how to do it because your friends are all in relationships, like, let's be friends.

[Nick]

So I'm, and that's amazing. Right? Like, but that, that's going to lead to good things. So you've got, you get, you got to find the silver lining. I am a big believer. There's always a silver lining. There's always something, something to learn. You got to be patient, you know, this 50 year old man. Just stop, just tell him what you want. You know, you might, you're gonna, some. At some point, someone's gonna surprise you.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But.

[Unknown]

And if nothing else, I felt like calling in was good because I know there are other women out there, other people, probably not just women who are in the same boat as me. And so a ton.

[Nick]

It's, it's very. I was single my entire 30s. It's a weird decade to be single single. Yeah, because you still feel very young and you feel like you're full of potential, but you have, you feel like you have all this baggage and the self awareness and it's just like, you know, it, it feels hard to fall in love. And I think it's coming from a decade where it felt easy to fall in love, but that easiness of falling in love was more. More came from our ignorance or, or our totally, you know, whatever. And you almost have to embrace a little bit more ignorance and a willingness to be wrong and stupid. Especially as a therapist. Like you're so good at like seeing the pitfalls and the gaps that you don't allow yourself to get hurt and you don't allow yourself to make mistakes. And I think you gotta, maybe, maybe you gotta get a little messier, which is. Sounds like what you're doing because stretching your comfort zone by definition is, you know, getting a little messy and allowing yourself to make mistakes because when you push your comfort zone, you, you are less aware of the pitfalls. You can't see the problem behind the corner because it's a new environment, it's a new situation. So I honestly think more of that with making sure you stay patient and positive, which is so annoying, but that's probably the best advice.

[Unknown]

No, I appreciate it. It's true.

[Nick]

All right, well, thank you for the call. I would love an update in the future.

[Unknown]

Yeah, hopefully I'll have a good update for you soon.

[Nick]

I'm sure you will. You got a lot of things going for you, so keep, keep doing it. Just stop with the whole like, am I undateable? And then just try more, more older guys than younger guys.

[Unknown]

I know, I'm working on it. I'm trying.

[Nick]

The younger guys are filled with reasons of why they don't know. Again, remember, you know what it's like to be 30 and single regard man or woman. And so these 34, 35 year old men, half of which aren't, don't even love their jobs and are. Are about to enter in some sort of midlife crisis partly because they're also single. It just. There's just more obstacles, you know, and maybe find the guy who's still single but has pushed through that like weird phase of like trying to live up to their 20s or expectations and just kind of settle into like who they are as a human being.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Nick]

All right.

[Unknown]

All right.

[Nick]

Well, good luck out there.

[Unknown]

Thank you.

[Nick]

All right, take care. Bye. Bye. Bye.

[Sam]

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[Nick]

Welcome to Finally Caught, a true crime podcast from the hit North American and UK television series. I saw the one girl with her throat cut and her abdomen stabbed and slashed. It's a gruesome sight. Blood stains on the bed wall. This is just the beginning of the journey. Each episode details a horrific murder and subsequent investigation in order to capture the killer at the large. To the newly released first season of Finally Caught. Available wherever you get your podcasts. How's it going?

[Melissa]

Hello, my name is Sam and I'm turning 40 years old next week and I'm worried I'll never be in another long term relationship.

[Nick]

Okay, well, happy birthday.

[Melissa]

Thank you.

[Nick]

Why are you worried you'll never be in a long term relationship?

[Melissa]

I've been in one. It didn't work out. And then I've been dating. I've Learned all the dating lessons, gone through all the dating scenarios. I feel very well versed. I'm a good student of dating. But now I think I'm so psyched out from my bad experiences and what I've learned that I don't know, I would know what to do if an opportunity presented itself.

[Nick]

Okay, what are your relationship goals right now? As a 40 year old woman?

[Melissa]

I'm not 40 yet.

[Nick]

As a 39 year old woman, no, I get it. I hold onto that age until.

[Melissa]

My goals are I, I would really love to have another partner in my life. I would really have to have that intimacy, that trust, that idea that I'm not going through all this alone. I don't know if I need the technicality of marriage again, of, of having. I've been married before.

[Nick]

Okay, kids were or do you have kids, not want kids? Where do they fall in the equation?

[Melissa]

I have two kids, I have two boys, they're younger, they're seven and nine. I am open to more kids. I've never thought of writing off the idea of no more kids or I need more kids. I very much believe that that would be something when I would meet that person, that we would determine together if that would make sense.

[Nick]

Right? Yeah.

[Melissa]

So I'm open to it.

[Nick]

Okay, that's awesome. Awesome. Tell me a little bit about your past relationship or relationships that have kind of really seemed to cause some anguish and fear. I literally just got off the phone with a woman who's a little younger than you, but relatively the same age, who has yet to get married and has yet to have kids and who very much wants to have kids and different, but similar to you, has a lot of fear if, you know, like what's wrong with her, will she ever find it? You know, what you have going for you that she doesn't have is like, the reality is like she wanting kids as a 30 year old woman has presented a lot of obstacles for her. It's just like she feels like if she dates a little younger, she meets men that aren't sure what they want and maybe aren't even ready to have kids. Where she's just like, hey, I'm not trying to put a timeline on you, but like, hey, I, I gotta, I gotta be intentional about this. Whether she meets men who like, are older, who already have had kids, who don't want Mark, you know, and all you're looking for is a life companion, you know, which is our. It's hard and I get it. But like that, you know, it's the good News is in terms of your biggest challenge. What I'm hearing from you is just working through whatever trauma you've experienced because you're. It sounds like, like, intentionally or unintentionally, you feel like it is. Is that it's affecting how you can be in relationships. Right?

[Melissa]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like the meme of, I don't know how to act around warm bread. It's like, I don't know how to act around, like, when that potential is in front of me. I. All these alerts go off of past things, of past examples and scenarios. I feel like I've clocked something, and then I turn around and walk away from it, or I don't even. And know how to act around it.

[Nick]

Tell me about the relationship or relationship that fucked you up.

[Melissa]

So, I mean, I think the biggest one is obviously my last marriage or my only marriage that ended. So that was a situation where, from start to finish, it was not good. I probably should have walked away from it a lot earlier. I met this person out of college. We were together for about five or six years before we got married. We were married for a little under eight years, had my two boys. But the relationship itself was incredibly strange. And I, for years, would deal with. I've heard a lot of narcissistic talk and labeling, so I'm sensitive to the use of that word. But I was dealing with someone who truly backed. Battled demons. And I got sucked into that world and had a really hard time with this person for several years. And I had threatened divorce. I felt very trapped. I felt very like, what do I do? I have two boys. How do I get out of this? It was very miserable for a very long time, and I didn't know how to get out of it. But the nail in the coffin was at the end of our relationship. He acknowledged being in love with someone else and wanting to end our marriage.

[Nick]

Marriage.

[Melissa]

And in a way, of course, that broke me and that trust, in a way, it set me free. But because of that, I then set off to have, you know, try to find my person. But that was really. That was really hard because I had given so much to myself for that, you know, nearly decade and a half. I had become whatever that person needed me to be to make that relationship sort of drive. And so when that was no longer in the picture, it was trying to figure out who I was after that.

[Nick]

Relationship, how long ago that relationship end.

[Melissa]

The separation was in the summer of 2022, but the divorce process took a little over two years.

[Nick]

So it's still pretty raw.

[Melissa]

It's pretty raw in that it. It didn't just end and then I moved on and had a happy life. It. It dragged on and with, you know, wounds getting reopened along the way, and he's still with that person. They have a child. So, yeah, it's. It's still pretty fresh, relatively speaking.

[Nick]

Okay. I imagine it must be kind of hurtful or painful to reflect on that relationship and say things to me or yourself like, I should have left a long time ago, or I stayed in it too long and I felt trapped, but I kept. And then have him be the one who says, I'm out. And then almost. I imagine there's probably a lot of anger, self anger about, like, allowing him to make you feel that way, where it's just like you felt so powerless in a relationship and you couldn't even find the power to leave a man who you knew you should have left a long time ago. Right. I'm guessing these are all.

[Melissa]

Yeah, those are all the. Those are all the emotions. And then you add a layer of having children with this person, and then now you have that. When I say that, though, if I say something like, I wish I would have left so much sooner, am I. Am I sacrificing the love I have for the two boys I got out of it? Because obviously they're my life and I love them. So there's so many layers to that acknowledgment of, I think I messed up by not getting out sooner.

[Nick]

Well, I don't know how to say this or articulate this. I mean, other than the fact that, like, two things can be true at the same time. Time. Right.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And regardless of how you reflect or feel about the situation, you're not going to be able to change the past. You know, you can't time travel. Right. So you could sit there and be like, I should have left sooner. That's just a. That's just a thought. 1. And that's a thought that's coming from a place of grieving in pain and suffering, which is normal. It doesn't mean anything. You know, it's like. Like it's not like some sort of genie or God or whatever is going to come down and be like, oh, you wished you wouldn't. You would have broke up a long time ago. And you actually just, you know, your wish actually happened before you have your kids. So we're just. We're going to take them away and. Or I guess that doesn't mean you, you know, like, that's yeah, that's just not how it works. Right. The way I would look at it is to try to again, pro let those feelings show up. You know, feelings come, feelings go. Right. The important how, how do we process those feelings? Do we allow them to process? Do we allow them show up, they recognize them and allow them to go, or do feelings show up and do we sit with them and hold on to them and keep those feelings and not process and move on and hold on to that anger and things like that and that make us feel stuck and keep us ruminating over a situation because our egos won't let it go. The ego thought of, of you let him do this to you. You stayed in too long and why did you do that? And you're a fool and yada yada yada. What I would love for you to get to a place when you think about your past relationship is simply this. I have my kids. And however, as I'm guessing it's safe to say that whatever cost it would, you know, again, using like God or some angel came down and said this is the cost of keeping your kids and that is the pain you've dealt with, you would be like, great, sold, you know?

[Melissa]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Nick]

So that's kind of how you have to look at that, you know. And everything else is just, I don't know, like I feel like an ego driven thought. Are you ruminating or like second guessing yourself? And maybe in an effort to hurt and feel. And I think it's also you, you said something about like trying to find your person already. Like is almost like I imagine it was, you know, once he told you he loved someone else, like imagine there was a period of time where you, you sounded like you really tried to go out there and start dating pretty quickly.

[Melissa]

I think I. So I'm in therapy and I was since the day I found out about all of this. And one thing that we've identified is that I pretty much tried to manage my healing. Like the second I found out this had happened, I think in my mind I thought, this isn't going to tear me down. I'm going to be okay, I'm going to be better. So I understood, broadly speaking, like the phases of healing from a scenario like this, like you got to date a little bit, you got a blah, blah, blah. And I thought, okay, I'm going to find that person. And I did have this sort of I'll show him mentality that, that that happened. Thinking I'm, I'm smart, I can get along with People, I can find someone. So I'm going to do it now. And. And so, yeah, I kind of hit the ground running. And for better or worse, I think a part of it too was I was so miserable for so many years that it didn't take me very long to mourn the end of the relationship. The trauma of how it ended was awful. But the fact that that relationship ended when, like, I acknowledged in the beginning, I kind of wanted it to end for a while, I think I was already in that mourning phase for a very long time. So by the time it ended, it didn't take long for me to go, what's next? Again, maybe not the best choice, but.

[Nick]

Yeah, but part of it sounds like you were. You weren't dating to find your person. You were dating to get your revenge a little bit.

[Melissa]

I think I had to prove to myself it wasn't me, that I didn't deserve to have that happen to me. And so I think I had to prove to myself I could. I could get someone, I could meet someone.

[Nick]

Well, I mean, I get what you're saying, but like, I. I don't. I think real healing and real growth is. Is not needing to prove to yourself.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

It's just knowing that you didn't, you know, it's like forgiving yourself, it's just like, ex. It doesn't do you any good. Like I said to be like, oh, I should have broken up with earlier. You know, the only, like, productive thought is the recognition of like, yeah, I probably should have ended it earlier, but I didn't. And so what? I am a person. Whether in my romantic relationships, friend relationships, my professional relationships, I always hold on to a relationship longer than I should. Always. I. It's. It's a flaw. It's so much that it is a flaw. But the silver lining there is I don't have regrets.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, when it comes to relationships I have finally left or stayed in so much longer that they left me, even when I knew it was not great, is that I like it. I leave. I don't have regrets. I don't look back and wonder if I was too hasty. I don't come back. In fact, I know this because when the relationship ends, regardless of again or whatever the contents, is this, like, I'm always like. And I know this why it's a problem for me because my life is usually better when that relationship ends. That I, you know, it's just like, oh, God, man. And. But I'm always afraid of what I am giving up in the relationship I'm holding on to, you know, and I want to fight for it and things like that. So you just have to go to a place where you just be like, yeah, I mean, I, fine, I, I stay there too long, but now that's over with and, and now I just need to move on. As opposed to like needing to prove to yourself if your ex husband, it really is a narcissist or any has narcissist, you know, like you, the, you're. You're never going to get the satisfaction of, of hurting him or trying to make, you know, make him regret it because. Yeah. Of how he is. So like you're, you're just wasting your energy trying to. He won't, he won't give you the satisfaction. Action.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Even if you wanted to, you know.

[Melissa]

Yeah, that's true.

[Nick]

You just got to be thankful you're not in it anymore. And you know, you are still young. You have a lot going through. You look great. You know, you have kids, your desire for children. You're open. You're open. You're not even like, hey, I already have two kids. I'm done. You know, because if that were the case, that, that, that could complicate you finding your person because maybe you meet someone who still does, you know, and you're like, I'm done. You know, like, you're just open, which is like the best place to be where it's just like I. The. All you're looking for is a certain type of person, how they treat you.

[Melissa]

Right.

[Nick]

Really, you know, and you're open to not having kids, you're open to having kids. You're open to kind of anything. You just want someone who in a lot of ways is the opposite of your first, your husband. And that's basically because he treated you so poorly. You're just looking for someone who treats you generally with respect.

[Melissa]

The high bar.

[Nick]

Yeah, but. And now your biggest challenge is kind of being patient.

[Melissa]

Yeah. I think what you're talking about in terms of that probably hanging on too long. I think obviously that's something I did in my marriage. I, I found as I was dating, following the marriage ending, I found that I was repeating that behavior a lot where I continually wanted to give someone the benefit of the doubt and, and give them that, that second chance. And it took a while to realize that the same behavior, the same mentality that had kept me in that marriage was starting to keep me in some of these. I mean, I've been through the situationship. I've. I've been through all those different scenarios, and I realized I was doing that same thing where if I didn't, like. Like how something was happening toward me, I thought, well, you know, they have this going on in their life. I'm going to give them this benefit of the doubt. And I would find myself in that same trap. And it was only really recently that I finally broke that cycle. And now I'm not. I'm not talking to anybody. I mean, this is the first time and probably since the separation happened that I haven't had an active pursuit of any person or any one person I want to date. And I think, think something has flipped in me where I used to be on that manic hunt for who is that person? I was on the dating apps. I was, you know, talking to anyone that would give me attention, shamefully admitting that. And now that I've come out on the other end and I've looked at everything and my behaviors with my dating. I looked at the behaviors that even led me to that marriage with that man. Now I'm so. I feel like I've seen too much now. I don't. I don't want to go on the dating apps. I get. I get hesitant when anyone is. Is clocking me at the gym or wanting to talk to me, just thinking. I don't. I don't want another scenario. I don't want another scenario where I have to try to read this person, where I have to try to figure out, can something happen where I don't want to. What's the end game?

[Nick]

It's.

[Melissa]

It's like. It's too much. It's overstimulating. And so now I'm just kind of wondering when. When will that change where I'm willing to feel that hurt again or even know how to act when that situation presents itself. So it's overwhelmingly paralyzing, I think.

[Nick]

Yeah. I don't know the answer of when, but from what you're describing, this kind of sounds pretty positive. And I feel like. Well, yeah, I mean, it sounds like progress to me. Sounds like even before recently, since you've been an adult person, it sounds like attracting men's been relatively easy for you, and you've always had some kind of love interest. Healthy or not your life.

[Melissa]

That's fair.

[Nick]

Yeah. So here you are for the first time as an adult woman almost that you are somewhat comfortable being a single person. And that's new and foreign, you know.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But I think also healthy, you know, two extremes in terms of, like, people. In terms of, like, there's the people pleasers. And then there's the people who are like really good at setting boundaries and sometimes are, you know, come across as different, difficult. The reason why people can set boundaries who, who can give off the perception of their difficult is because like they really like who they are and they are comfortable with who they are. So much so that like they're comfortable with some people not liking them, you know, and they don't need strangers to like them because they generally like themselves enough. Right. And I feel like right now, maybe for the first time in your life, you're kind of entering that season of like kind of just being enough for yourself and like going to the gym and taking care of yourself and almost like finding a man giving you attention in the wrong setting, like at a gym you just find to be obnoxious or annoying, you know, and maybe that's because you don't need it as much. It's like before it wasn't the men you were looking for. It was the validation, it was the attention. It was feeling enough, you know, it was needing someone to give you some kind of time because if you didn't get it, that made you feel less then. And I'm wondering if maybe again I think you're still healing, but like not needing that for whatever reason means that you don't need it. And not needing it is a good thing because I think in the past you were dating not for yourself. You were dating to fill a void, you know, to feel enough to get revenge, to remind yourself that you still got it or you still could, you know, and things like that. And now you're just like, you know, as a, as an almost 40 year old woman who already has kids, who, you know, has a lot going for her, who can still attract a lot of men. You have the benefit of being patient and taking your time and if you want to date because you, you know, it's like I kind of feel like getting laid. You can do that if you want, you know, and in, you know, and if you don't find your person till you're 45 in the next five years, you can have fun with your girls. You can be independent and adventurous. You can focus on being the best mom possible. But because when that person shows up in your life at like say at 45, again, what you're looking for as a, for, for romantic companionship is very different than what you were looking for when you were 20. You need probably didn't even know what you're looking for. You were kind of just looking for someone who thought you were hot and made you feel good about yourself, that your friends got jealous of who you were dating and then someone who also wanted to have, and then you wanted to have kids with them. And you honest, you did get all, you probably got all of that right. But you realize that maybe that's not what you should have been looking for. It's not what you really wanted. You wanted someone who was kind and considerate and made you feel like a priority, who could take a note or feedback, who could, who acknowledge their own faults. You could, you know, and you know. And so now you can, you have the benefit of just focusing on that because quite honestly, some people don't have the benefit of that. They have to worry about. Do they still want to have kids, do they want to get married? Or, you know, and, and you don't have to worry about that. So you have a ton going for you and you really, truly can be selfish and patient and in the meantime have a ton of fun as an independent person. And for the first time in your adult life, embrace the fact that you answer to no one other than your children.

[Melissa]

Yeah, yeah, I agree with all of that. I also feel that I agree with the idea that this is the first time I'm truly feeling single and okay with it. I think the thing that worries me is, well, I can go into something new knowing I don't have to worry about whether or not I have kids because I have my kids. I have the, the reference of a marriage prior. I know what that's like, right? I have some of these life examples that I can carry into something. What I don't have an example of and what worries me and I don't even know what an answer to this would be and is because I didn't have anywhere near a healthy relationship with my ex husband and because all of the situations, dating scenarios I've been in, at surface level, maybe they were healthy, but at the end, I never really had a healthy mini relationship either. I don't know. I don't know what that looks like. And that feels like such a blanket, arbitrary statement, but I don't know what that feels like. I don't know what, what that emotional intimacy with someone who truly won't screw you over feels like. I. And I don't know what trusting someone without having a guarantee feels like. Those are feelings that I've. That I don't have. That's a, a reference I don't have. And I think that's where I get really nervous, is the Second, and probably why it's good I'm not talking to anybody. But the second I have any kind of interest, I automatically go to a place where of it's going to go away, I'm going to lose it. And I feel that's happened to me in my past dating experiences where the second I really felt for someone, I no longer had that feeling of excitement you're supposed to have at the start of something, no matter what happens. I had that initial feeling of dread. And dread turned into acting crazy. Right. Or, you know, getting paranoid. And so, yes, part of the beauty of not answering to anyone right now is that I get to live my best singles life myself. But it's also, I think, protecting me from that vulnerability that comes from meeting someone I might really like. And I just. I don't know. I don't know what to do. Like, there was literally a situation a couple weeks ago where I met someone, got really excited. We later found out that that guy was married. And they were the girlfriends that found out. They're. I'm so sorry. I know you, you know, we. We thought maybe this was someone that you would talk to or whatever. We. It was a. We met with our kid and the second I found out that he was married, I was relieved because I thought, good, that's one less, like, thing to have on my mind of an interest or I don't have to worry about running into this person and then something starting. I was so relieved that I did not that I couldn't pursue this interest because they were married. And that was very telling to me of. I don't find excitement in this idea of dating. I don't. I'm scared of it. I'm scared of just how I act when I might be interested in somebody.

[Nick]

I'm kind of hearing progress, you know. Yeah, yeah. I would say a couple things. I would say one, I think your. Your feelings are very normal and valid and they make a lot of sense. And your biggest fear around, like, well, how do I know if this is right? Or whatever? And my answer to that is, is the better you get at loving yourself and the better you get at really, you know, this is, you know, this might be the first time that you are comfortable being single, but I still think you're a work in progress when it comes to being single. Are your friends, like, actively trying to meet, introduce you to someone?

[Melissa]

I would say they are always thinking of, you know, here's this guy. They don't actually go through with it, but in their brain, they want me to meet someone and they're trying to think of who they can meet.

[Nick]

Is that based off of you. You at times talking about how you wish you could or want to or expressing frustration with being single or are they just.

[Melissa]

I think they've heard me express frustration with the dating scenarios I've been in. And so I'm sure that that implies I have an active interest in dating and I just need to find the right guy. But they also know that I recently got off the date to dating apps. I didn't want that anymore. So they know I'm not. I'm not in that same manic hunt that I had mentioned earlier. Yeah, I would just kind of have.

[Nick]

Them stop doing that, you know, again, like, I still think while you've made a lot of progress, maybe you still have more progress to make. And the uncertainty of. Of not knowing if you will be able to tell what is healthy or unhealthy to me is just a sign of. Of you. You are still getting comfortable with being enough on your own of. Of not feeling like you need a man to complete you. You know, in a sense that like, makes a ton of sense that like, okay, here you are, you're about to turn 40, you're thinking about the second chapter of your life, and you hope that a big chunk of that second chapter of your life has someone that you can share a lot of cool experiences with and have that be person of the opposite sex that you're romantically attracted to and you have some good sex along the way, guy type of thing. You share stories. Right? That's normal. But like that, you know, I know maybe your first chapter went pretty fast or whatever life goes, certainly goes by fast, but like, you know that, that second chapter has a lot. Has. Has at least, you know, 40 some years plus in it. Right. You know, and so you take your time in the. There is literally nothing right now that is telling you you need to hurry up, you know. Again, my last caller, I didn't have. We didn't have, you know, as we were talking and kind of trying to figure out her problem or whatever. And not that she like, had a problem or. I mean, her problem was she, she. She wants to have a kid with a man and, and, and she wants to find her companionship and, and the, the wanting a child in the relatively near future. There were things outside of her control given, like biology in science that like. And there were certain things she was hoping to avoid having to do. You know, she's from, you know, things like that, that, but you don't have any of those problems.

[Melissa]

I don't. So I don't. I think, I think it. I am still also wrapping my head around the idea that it is okay that I'm turning 40 and have this sort of open path ahead of me. I think that really, I think it freaks me out, to be honest, the turning 40. I have to actively remind myself of the positives that you just mentioned because as of right now, it feels, feels I'm turning 40. I. I thought I was going to have a third child with my ex husband and, and we lost that child. So I thought I still wanted at some point to have another child. Like we mentioned at the top of this, it's not a requirement, but I, but I wanted it to be an option in my life. And I feel like as time goes by, and yes, I know it's. There's no rush or urgency, but, but something like that does weigh on me of like, is that. Is that option? I'm so open to it now because I can be, right. I have the luxury of saying like, sure, yes or no, but at a certain point I won't be. And then there's also just the idea that I spent 40 years of my life struggling through these various things that built me into the person I was that chose this man. And then I went through those lessons and now I'm here. And yes, I suppose that's great, but I also, it's just daunting to me that I'm, in a way, I am starting over with some things, some very fundamental things in terms of like the human experience of meeting someone and having that relationship that lasts. That to me is incredibly daunting. And I haven't been able to see the bright side of it the way that you were able to just paint it.

[Nick]

That's the part you might have to work on. I mean, listen, and acknowledging that while you are generally open, knowing that if you had it your way, you would like to have another child, you know, if you could, if right now, you could, if you could write your story, it sounds like a third child would be a part of that story. But you know, you, you do, you are a mom, you know, and, and not having children and having one child is hugely difficult, different than. And I say that as someone who. Natalie and I have tried to grow our family unsuccessfully recently, and that's been very painful. But we are so thankful that we have our daughter and so thankful compared to the many families and people out there who have experienced what we've experienced recently. But don't have the blessing of knowing that they are capable and able to give birth to a health, healthy child. And we feel very grateful about that. And so it's not exactly what we want to be dealing with right now, but we, we can see that. And, and, and similar to you, you have the benefit of that. And while it's not perfect and it's not the way you would necessarily write your story, there are a lot of good things there that you, you're just gonna have to challenge yourself to focus on. It is normal to turn 40 and freak out. You know, I knew I was, I kind of felt weird about it, it, but kind of like I was like you, you are in a unique position as a woman who's about to turn 40 to kind of act like a man who's about to turn 40. Which a lot of women who are, you know, and who are single, who haven't had the, who want to have children, who haven't had the benefit of having children aren't in a position to act like that. They just, they don't, you know, they don't get to, you know, 40 year old men, men who still want to have children, who've never had children can around and find out and date a 23 year old who like may be like, it might be the dumbest thing they have ever did done because like, you know, there's a lot of, you know, and it can blow up in their face and they can then be 42 and, and nothing's really changed for them. You know, they're still capable of having children if they ever meet the right person. They're a couple years older and you know, hopefully they have the same amount of hair as they did two years ago, you know, and you have that you don't have to worry about your hair like 40 year old men have to worry. So again it's a lot of it is how you choose to look at this situation. And we all have self limiting beliefs, we all have fears and things that pop in our head. But I think you just have to remind yourself of the progress you've made made and you got to give yourself grace and you have to jokingly have some fun and just be like I get to be, I get to act like 40 year old men get to act when they turn 40 and still maybe want to have and are open to having more kids. And I can, you know, around and find out. And again there's, I think there's a difference between, you know, yeah, you made some bad decisions Dating when you're younger. But your bad decisions were based off of thinking you needed a man and you needed the validation and then you all wanted to have kids and then you got stuck in this very toxic relationship. And I'm not saying you should go like some 28 year old guy. I'm just saying that if all you wanted to do was go on vacation with your friends and just have fun and throw caution to the wind and you happen to meet, you know, and you decided, you know what, I haven't been late in a while and I'm going to do that with a 28 year old man. Short of just making sure you have protected sex, you can do that guilt free and risk free and just have some fucking fun on in ways that like other people in your position don't feel like they have the luxury of doing. And if you waste six to 12 months with a guy you probably realize you had no business doing that with. You don't have to beat yourself up or be like, I shouldn't have done that. Like you didn't really waste much time. You have the benefit right now of kind of doing things for the plot enjoyed. But yeah, I'm not saying you should necessarily do that, but like embrace the, embrace the fact that you have the ability to do that. And I think when going back to like your greatest fears of, of knowing what is healthy and not knowing and feeling triggered when you meet a guy you like, to me that is a sign that you're honestly just not ready to date. You know, to me that is your body telling you that you, you, you still have some self love to give, you know, you still have, you know. And you say, well how will I know know the better you are at knowing what you deserve and giving you those things, giving yourself those things you deserve. And most of that is grace. And just like how you see yourself and how you talk about yourself to yourself, you know, and how you talk about yourself to your friends, the better you are, the, the kinder you are to yourself and the more respect you give yourself and the more, more the, the, the, the way you prioritize yourself in a way that isn't necessarily narcissistic or self centered. And you can still, you know, you can be a single woman, right? And you can prioritize yourself. And again, you're still a mom of two. So you have, you know, you, there are a couple people who really need you to be there for them, right? And, and, and if you have any free time you can, you can give back to Your community, you can, you can volunteer and, and you can do things to hold yourself accountable so that you're not just like become some self centered, egotistical person who's like, trying to make up for lost time because she gave so much to this narcissistic man who didn't deserve that. You know what I'm saying? You can do things to check yourself while still getting better at loving yourself. And the better you get at that, when you meet a guy who doesn't match the way you've been treating yourself the past six, 12, two months, three years, four years, five years, that will be a signal to you that, like, they're not your guy. But right now you're still not totally comfortable with giving yourself that grace, with treating yourself with love and respect and kindness and things like that, that you don't know how to hold men accountable who also don't do that.

[Melissa]

Yeah, I think it's a lot of reprogramming that goes into this that I've. I think I've gotten to the point I've identified how I programmed myself into these situations where I was so forgiving and I let those things happen. And that programming took place over decades. Right. Like, it, like clearly there was programming that happened when I was a kid that led me into growing into a young woman who met this person and thought that this kind of treatment was okay. And, and then you reinforce that year over year. So it's knowing I need to love myself and knowing I deserve a certain amount of respect is one thing. It's the, it's the action of like reprogramming myself to when that happens. Not thinking, not having that wanting, that voice that tells me that's not okay. To be louder than the instinct to allow that to happen. Because my instincts are, give him a break. Something bad. He had a bad day, he has a stressful job. You know, maybe there's something I can do to make this person want to talk to me again. Maybe there's something I can do to make their day better. And that is a programming that I had totally.

[Nick]

Yeah. So you still have some work. You've made progress, you have more progress to make, right?

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And just to address that very specific thought that you had is that there will always be something that causes people to need to think of themselves over other people. There is always something that will cause people to feel stressed or not themselves. Right. And so that's just not a valid excuse. Like, we all need grace to give our partners. But if early in a dating situation you start noticing a man, do, you know, showing certain behaviors or patterns that your ex did, and all you can come up with are excuses for him like, sure, I guess. But again, it's having those things show up early on and still be like, wow, this guy's pretty stressed out at work and he's got, he's got. But he still goes out of his way for me.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, and it's, it's knowing the, it's, it's, it's knowing to look for that, you know, because again, like, you know, that is just an early sign that when things get difficult, as I'm sure you've realized in your past relationship, they're gonna, they're gonna think of themselves first and they're gonna use their, their feeling victimized by a situation, be it their job, be it their friends, whatever, whatever, as a justification to not show up in the relationship. Right. And that's why, that's that thing you, you need to work on because there we all. They always have excuses. And you want to be in a position where every once in a while you can forgive someone's selfishness because they really did go through it and they really did have a bad day, as opposed to any little thing that them up or that that causes them, them stress, anxiety, you know, doesn't completely cannibalize their ability to take care of anyone else but themselves in that moment.

[Melissa]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, and that was your ex husband. I, I'm, I'm hearing you've made a lot of progress. You have a lot of things to be proud of. You're not done healing yet. You still have some things to do. And in the meantime, I would really encourage you, you to embrace the single life. I would really encourage you to do things as an independent woman and go out of your way. It's not just sitting around and being comfortable with being alone. It's taking advantage of the fact that you are single and doing things that only a single woman can do and enjoy doing those things and just leave the doors and windows open to the rooms that you want to fill. Pill and be open to meeting someone if someone shows up. But like, for the most part, meeting someone is not on your radar. And then staying patient and maybe some time will go by and you can feel like pretty good. And maybe you can be more intentional with dating. But right now I think it's telling the friends that you're not looking to get set up. You're not looking to be forced, you know, force someone on you. You're Just really, just generally open. But right now, embracing being this independent woman and really seeing the value in that because I think that's where you haven't gotten that far. You're just, you're kind of okay with it, but you haven't embraced it.

[Melissa]

Yeah, I think I'm trying to act the part right now. I'm trying to enjoy the self care Fridays when I don't have my kids. I, I try, I do try to take advantage of the, the freedom and travel because I didn't travel a lot in my marriage. So I do a lot of solo travel to get out there.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Melissa]

Yeah. So I've, I think I'm going through those motions and I think, think I'm hoping that at some point those motions don't feel like motions. They feel like things that are truly organically like enriching my life.

[Nick]

I think you need to go be a fuckboy for a while. Kinda. I'm kind of kidding.

[Melissa]

I don't know, I feel like I did casually date a little bit here and there and I still felt like there was some kind of, I don't know, I, maybe I met the wrong, wrong, the wrong voice, but there's a little more drama than I even wanted. And so at this point I think I've, I know that you see that for me, but I don't, I don't even know that I'm interested in that at the moment.

[Nick]

I'm kind of kidding. It's just more like I just, I, you know, we are all drawn to drama more than we all want to admit. You know, we all like it, it's entertaining, it keeps us stimulated. So, you know, I think you'll probably always have to maybe recognize that about yourself. But I just, just, I want to see you really embrace your independence. And you haven't fully embraced it yet. You have to, you're trying to, you're trying to convince, you know, to convince yourself to force. Enjoy the independence. And yeah, you always have to, you have to fake it till you make it. But yeah, I, the, the, you're just not there yet. And just recognizing you're not there yet, you know, because you're, you, you're making the, I think common mistake that often people make is this. Like, like, I mean, you have a lot of reason to be very proud of yourself in terms of how you've dealt with this divorce, you know, but you're still not there yet. And you've made so much progress that you're probably like, well, I, I, I, I should be ready you know, I've, I've done all this, you know, but like that. You're talking about 20 years that you're need to. You talked about reprogramming. You know, Rome wasn't built in a day. What is it? What's the saying? I don't know. And you're. Well, even though it feels like, oh, I've been working myself for a couple years. Well, you're. It's 20 years of reprogramming, so. Does take a little bit of time.

[Melissa]

Yeah. I think I got tuckered out with the, the healing retreats too. I went through all, like, I did the, I did the retreat to Bali. I did the ayahuasca. I did like, I did all the things. I did the therapy. I, I learned about all this stuff. And I think that there was a certain point where when I looked at even booking my next trip, I was like, keep me away from any of these spiritual awakening things. Not to, not to poo poo them, but I just, I thought, okay, I've done it. I can't, I can't keep just being a stud. Healing and rebirth. Like, at some point, I just need to live my life.

[Nick]

Exactly.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think you need to live your life with the, With a couple just guardrails to keep yourself in check.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, you don't, you know, I know 40 is you up a little bit, but you don't look 40. You know, you got that going for you, you know, and so like, listen, at this stage in your life, you are as old as you. You kind of want to be an act, you know, I'm sure you're familiar with a lot of people who you're. Are your age who look every bit their age and then some.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know? Yeah. So, like, are you the same age as them? I don't know. You know.

[Melissa]

Yeah, I think I, I try to hold on to, like, you know, we talked about the regret feeling the. I try to look at. The silver lining is I know there are people that live into their 80s and they stay in these miserable situations or they, they never got the chance to go, what the fuck was I doing in that relationship? And so I try to hang on to that idea of, listen, I had a hard lesson to learn about who I pick and how I treat myself. And perhaps I am lucky, even though I'm turning 40, that I feel like I've learned that lesson now.

[Nick]

Well, I mean, I would say not perfectly, perhaps, and I don't think definitely. And, And I think you need to try to stop hanging on to that. I think you need to embrace that because it's true. Like, I'm someone who very much believes, you know, you've probably maybe heard. I don't think everything happens for a reason. I think for the most part, like, life is just dumb luck. And our choices matter. Our choices matter. And that is a scary, scary, scary thing to, to acknowledge or even believe in because, like, that gives us so much control over our very short and insignificant life in the grand scheme of things, you know, and you are taking control. And you're right. Like, you are. You have this opportunity because you're right. Most people don't. Like all the people out there who are, you know, and that's most of them who are all like, well, you know, everything happens for a reason. Reason are afraid to take ownership of their life. And they are waiting for God or fate or the stars or whatever the they believe in to like, save them from whatever like, purgatory they are accepting about their life. I could be wrong, you know, it's just my opinion, but I'm of the opinion those people will live to regret it. And what do they always say? What do people like when they're old? And whatever they always say, I wish I took more time, chances. I wish I took more risks. I wish, I wish, wish, wish, wish, wish. You know, like, you are, you know, you, you were saved by this divorce. You are taking control of your life, your life, which is hopefully, knock on wood, only half over, you know, and most people, especially people who take care of themselves, who have the benefit of having privileges, you know, who, who, who, who in your case have children and don't have to worry about the fear of, like, you know, not having children. The reality is, is some people who desperately want to have children aren't lucky enough to be able to have children. And some of that is outside of their control biology. And some of it is they made poor choices. And we don't like to realize that we've made poor choices because, like, you know, it doesn't do us any good like, sulking over a mistake we made. We have to pick ourselves up and move on. But sometimes we don't get second chances. And those are very hard mistakes to overcome. And you have the benefit of, of not really worrying about not having a second chance. The things that you want most in your life.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So I would really try to. I would really try to embrace that and really focus on the positives because there, there's a. I'm hearing a ton of positives and the. It's normal to let those negative thoughts come in. But like you have to just get better at changing the narratives in your, in your head and really embrace this next chapter of your life because it could be really awesome. It really, really could. And you're going to look back like truly happy, not trying to convince yourself you're happy because right now you're in that kind of. Someone told me right now I have a lot of exciting things happening in my life. And it doesn't personally feel like that for me, but I'm going through sometimes like growth causes pain. You know, getting out of, you know, trying new things, stretching, not accepting what you have. Those are awkward and difficult moments. You're going through some growing pains and so everything that you're feeling is more growing pains. More than something's wrong.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So you gotta keep pushing forward.

[Melissa]

Yeah. I think I need some more space between the drastic things that happened and what is to come. I think right now my biggest bucket of memories is all the bad stuff. Right. And it's all the like the fuck ups and the bad choices on my part. And so in my mind when I think about all these things, they're lessons which are positive, but they're lessons isn't in those moments they were, they were not awesome things. And I think over time, I mean, I would say even over the last couple years since the divorce happened or since the separation happened, I look back at the me I was coming out of it and how raw and how desperate I was for, you know, name the kind of attention I needed or how dramatic everything was, how I would cry at, you know, the drop of a hat. And, and I see the progress there. I think, I think I was thinking by now there would be other progress, as that's the word. And, and there haven't been. And so because I am that like you were talking about, I have that like need to. Okay, I'm doing the things where's, where's the progress? I'm a high performer. And other things where, why am I not seeing it in my own life? And, but reframing it to go, no, this is progress is.

[Nick]

Yeah, we never see it in real time, you know, we never see it in the present.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, but if you keep, if you stay on this path, if you give yourself disgrace and if you keep pushing forward, not only like this period in your life and specifically your, your marriage, you're, you'll, you'll look back and it'll be a, a funny story in a way it'll be more. It will, you know. Yeah. Again, when it comes to my past relationships, many of which cause trauma, you know, not because they were bad people, but like, we just.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, I, I, if I don't really think about them ever, but when I do, I just kind of laugh and I don't, I certainly don't have regrets because I'm very happy with where I'm at and everything led me to this moment. And I do believe that, you know, like, I do believe in the butterfly effect. I do believe that our choices matter and we make choice choices and, and those choices have consequences. And sometimes those consequences are good. And though, you know, and we might not realize the consequences of our choices till years later and not even realize what those choices were that we did make that actually led to the thing that we are enjoying now. And that's why it's always important to be mindful of our choices, especially as we get older, to make those healthy choices and to compound those healthy choices because those can tend to lead, you know, to better things. You've heard me say shavings make a pile that come. You know that when it's our choices, you know, it's not just the outcomes, it's the thing, the choices we make, you know, and we have to make small, consistent positive choices to have consistent positive things in our life. And you are used to making kind of consistently bad choices, places and used to consistently deal with a negative thing. But once you get out of it and you look back, like again, it's hard to see in the present, you know.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But you'll know when you're fully healed. When you look back and, and really have you. You feel generally indifferent about your husband. Ex husband. Other than the fact that is that you're just glad you have the children that you have. And knowing that as crazy as it was to have him be a part of your life, which is almost like shocking talking, you know that like you do have your children.

[Melissa]

Yeah. Yeah. And they're great.

[Nick]

Okay. All right, well, just keep, just keep doing. You're doing, you know, just, I think, great. More than anything. You need some grace. You need to give yourself some grace.

[Melissa]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Happy birthday.

[Melissa]

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it.

[Nick]

Enjoy your birthday.

[Melissa]

Thank you so much.

[Nick]

All right. Bye. Bye.

[Melissa]

Bye.

[Nick]

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